There are many times that I don’t realize just how much strange teaching I’ve had to undo in my life. I usually don’t realize it until times when I try to explain them to someone else. This happened to me the other night. A dear friend and I were talking about our kids and how to help them transition from children to adults. The topic of dating and relationships came up and we started talking about my story. Sometimes it’s actually comforting to me to be met with blank or incredulous stares from people I consider “normal,” good Christians. It somehow validates my belief that some of the teachings I grew up with were very wrong.
Lately, I’ve also started facing the ways in which the teachings of “emotional purity,” (a la Josh Harris, the Ludys, and others) have damaged the part of my brain that makes healthy relationships function.
I define “emotional purity” in the same way that popular homeschool writers have: it is the idea of “guarding your heart.” This sounds all noble and righteous and everything but in this context is really just a facade for fear. Fear of loving and losing. Fear of making the wrong choice. Fear of getting hurt. Fear of being damaged. Fear of not measuring up. In my life it meant never having a crush on a guy, never allowing myself to “fall in love.” Basically, training myself to shut down a normal, healthy, functioning part of my human heart.
I’m 27 years old, and I’ve been married for almost 7 years. I rejected the teachings of courtship and emotional purity when I was 19. But their effects have yet to leave. In fact, I have identified several ways that these teachings can damage a person’s heart.
1. They cause shame.
Shame because sometimes you can’t help but like one guy a little more than another. Shame because that’s “sinful” and “emotionally impure.” Shame because it sets a standard and proclaims that you are somehow shameful if you cannot keep it. You are considered damaged goods if you have fallen in love and had your heart broken. It was Josh Harris in I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the Ludy’s in several of their books that popularized the idea that everytime you fall in love or get “emotionally attached” to someone, you give away a piece of your heart. The more pieces you give away, the less of your heart you have to give to your spouse someday. Harris even went so far as to say that each of those former flames actually have some sort of hold on you. This has got to be the most bogus and the most damaging teaching of this entire movement. Love doesn’t work that way. The more you give, the more you have. My third child doesn’t have less of my heart just because I’ve loved two other children before him. And, really, I haven’t given them “pieces” of my heart. I’ve given them each all of my heart. The miracle of love is that it multiplies by being given.
Each person I love has a “piece of my heart”. . . my best friend, my sisters, my husband, my parents, my kids. It is ridiculous to suggest that there is not enough of my heart to go around. And what view of redemption does this teaching proclaim? Not one that I want anything to do with. It is an incompetent redemption.
2. They cause pride.
Pride because suddenly you are better than everyone else. Because you have never had a crush on a guy. You have kept your heart for your spouse. You didn’t say “I love you” til your wedding day. Pride in human accomplishment. Pride because you are so much more spiritual than that poor girl over there who is crying because her boyfriend broke up with her. Because your heart is whole and she just gave a piece of hers to a guy she isn’t married to. Pride because you did it right, she did not. You have more to give your future husband than she does. She is damaged goods, you are the real prize.
This is exactly what happened to the Pharisees. They made up laws that God never condoned, then patted themselves on the back for keeping them, while looking down on those who didn’t. This has nothing to do with the righteousness and grace of God, and everything to do with the accomplishments of man. I remember watching a video in which one of the biggest names in the courtship movement bragged with obvious arrogance that he didn’t tell his wife he loved her until their wedding. And I thought, “How twisted can we get? We took something as simple as saying ‘I love you,’ built a straw man rule around it (‘saying I love you is defrauding’), then hung it like a trophy on our walls.” Job well done, folks.
3. They create skewed views of relationships which lead to dysfunction.
This is where I still struggle. Where others see nothing wrong, I am suspicious of every look, every situation, every witty exchange. I am still uncomfortable hugging one of my best friends who is a guy because we were taught never to hug or have physical contact, even innocent, with a guy. Voices in my head scream “defrauder!” just because I gave a friend a quick hug. I feel ill at ease sometimes even talking to other men. Oh, they never notice. I’m really good at pushing those feelings away and acting “normal.” But I am bothered by my reaction to everyday situations. We were taught never ever ever to be alone with a guy because it could look bad. He could be tempted. You might start thinking impure thoughts. You might even *gasp* flirt!
I was trying to explain this to my friend, and it came out sounding so . . . crazy and embarrassing. I told her if she was to walk out of the room, leaving me and her husband in the same room, my first reaction would be one of panic. “This might look bad. . . . What if he talks to me? . . . What if someone else sees us? . . . What is he thinking?” My second reaction, close on the heels of the first, would be a coping mechanism that I learned long ago: I calmly tell myself, “This is perfectly normal and innocent. . . . He probably doesn’t even notice me. . . . This is a Godly man whom I know and trust. . . . The only person who would ever freak out about this is me. . . . To the rest of the world, there’s nothing wrong here.” I then calm down, act normal, and hope nobody noticed my crazy internal battle. ‘Cuz they’d probably admit me to a psych ward. Thank you, Josh Harris and Co. I hate this about myself! I am a strong, confident person. But the idea that I can defraud just by a look, that I could become emotionally impure just by a thought, that I might become damaged goods with pieces of my heart strewn all over creation, and that guys “have only one thing on their minds” and we need to help them control themselves, has truly negatively affected what should be normal interactions with my friends. Honestly, I don’t get embarrassed talking about much. But this admission isn’t easy for me.
Guess what? In the real world, men and women can have innocent relationships. They can talk to each other without there being ulterior motives. They can laugh and exchange wits and, yes, even drive in a car together without anybody thinking anything dubious is happening. They are not naive but they are not afraid of their own shadows. Purity and integrity in relationships can exist without unnaturally freaking out about it. The other night, I stuck my tongue out at a guy friend who was teasing me, and his wife cracked up laughing. As I laughed, I felt myself looking down on the situation, amazed that nobody thought twice about it. I then was amazed that I DID! I had to push away feelings of guilt because what if someone thought I was *gasp* flirting?! This is one dysfunction that I really wish I could be freed from. Maybe time is the only cure, and I need to be more patient with myself. These teachings have deep, rotten roots, and it takes time to pull them all out.
4. They deceive us into thinking that living by formulas is “safe.”
1 + 1= 2. Emotional purity + Biblical courtship = Godly marriage. But life doesn’t work that way. You can do everything “right” and your life can still go wrong. You can do everything “wrong” and still be blessed. Rain falls on the good and evil. Time and chance happen to them all. People who follow the courtship formula still get divorced. Or stuck in terrible marriages. Courtship is not the assurance of a good marriage. Life is too complicated for that. Love involves vulnerability. When you choose to love, you are choosing to accept risking a broken heart. No formula can protect you. Life involves risk. Following God involves risk. He is not a “safe” God. But He is good.
I don’t think God likes formulas, because formulas run contrary to faith. Formula says, “I will follow a God that I’ve put neatly in a box, and He will give me the desired results.” Faith says, “I will follow You even when I can’t see where I’m going, even when the world is collapsing around me.” Formula says, “I will not risk. I will be in control of my future.” Faith says “I will risk everything. I will trust Him whom I cannot see, surrender what I cannot control anyway.” Formula is the assurance of things planned for, the conviction of things seen. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). But we are afraid. So we control instead of trust. We don’t take a step unless we can see where we’re going. We build neat little formulas and say “THIS will keep me safe!” Then we blame God when our puny formulas fail.
These teachings need to be stopped. They were new in my generation and now I, and others like me, are reaping the fruit of them. And the fruit is rotten to the core. I’m sure those who promoted such ideas had good intentions. But good intentions aren’t enough. Without Truth and Grace they do more harm than good. Thanks to those good intentions, we are seeing an entire generation of homeschool alumni who have no idea how to have normal relationships. I have talked with literally hundreds of alumni my age, and I am not exaggerating the extent of the issue. It’s nice to know I’m not alone in my dysfunction, but it is discouraging as well. However, what is encouraging is that most of us have determined to stop the insanity. We will not be passing on these things to the next generation. Instead, we will teach our children to love God with all that they have, all that they are; and to love and respect others as they love themselves.
I leave you with the words of a very wise man:
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless--it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.” ~C. S. Lewis
Two weeks after the publication of this article, Darcy wrote some follow-up thoughts. You can view them here.
EDITOR NOTE: If you are a reader who is unfamiliar with the specific courtship teachings of Bill Gothard and IBLP (the perspective from which Darcy writes), you can find more articles by clicking here.
Amen! I got so sick of this ultra-purity stuff, from the fear-mongering Botkins and the presumptious likes of the Braddocks and Josh Harris. Even in one of Stacy Mcdonald's best works, "Maidens of Virtue", there's one story I refuse to read again because it's about a girl whose mom forbids her to read a Christian romance story; why? It might influence her heart and "awaken feelings she shouldn't have yet". Urgh! I've been reading/watching those tales since 5th grade, or younger if you count the Disney tales, and I still love WELL-WRITTEN romances (more picky than I used to be for good reason). I'm been in love, been strongly attracted and deeply loved a guy I was strongly attracted to, but my heart's still thriving. And the love I've borne has broadened it. Stacy Mcdonald et al has a point about being careless and giving yourself too soon, and giving too much, but I draw the line at the "don't talk about boys in a romantic fashion" and "don't read clean romances", thank you very much.
I think you have interpreted and brought out of context what Joshua Hariss wanted to say in his book. I’ve read 3 of his books, and this is what I think he’s trying to say.
1. On the part about:It causes shame.
It was never a sin to be attracted to someone. Joshua Hariss never said that. Jesus says “Whoever looks at a woman lustfully, has committed adultery with her in his heart.” This is a DELIBERATE, ACTIVE action to think about the act of adultery itself. We are made by God to be attracted to the opposite sex. When you guard your heart, that means you guard your intentions with other people. Why am I seeking this person? Is it because I want to pursue this person without any commitment and use this person for the sake of my intimate sexual pleasure?
There’s a difference between giving your heart ROMANTICALLY and PLATONICALLY. I don't think Joshua Hariss' point was not to give your heart to people. In fact, Joshua Hariss clearly encouraged different sex friendships.
Let me tell you, when you give your heart romantically to other people, you go back to thinking about the person you kissed way before, the person who’s body you caressed, etc. I won’t go graphic on this, but it’s clearly not good to pursue ROMANTIC relationships when you have no intention of keeping it.
2. On the part about: It causes pride.
It depends on the person. Joshua Hariss sinned many times before God, and he openly confesses that many times on His book. A Christian would also realize that becoming pure for marriage is an enablement of God’s grace. I believe people who are proud because they are pure have missed the point. Instead of giving God the glory, they give glory to themselves and not to God.
3. On the part about: They create skewed views of relationships which lead to dysfunction.
You shouldn’t really judge people at the surface. What God holds you accountable to is to your intentions. Did you give that hug because you were seeking romance when you know you’re not able to match it with commitment? Or did you seek that hug because you were looking for platonic and unconditional love? It all depends on what end you wanted to have.
4. On the part about: They deceive us into thinking that living by formulas is “safe.”
Joshua Hariss said “DATING IS NOT THE POINT”
There you have it, no formula.
Joshua Hariss is only recommending courtship because that’s the best thing he knows that would keep two people from going beyond the intimacy boundaries but get to know more of each other. He says that there can be “saintly daters” and “hellish courters” depending on the intention.
Joshua Hariss was promoting the idea of loving our neighbors and respecting other people. He was promoting that we should seek the good of others first before ourselves. If God told you in the beginning that you shouldn’t pursue a ROMANTIC relationship because you couldn’t commit to it and feel guilty because you had a relationship that turned out bad, ask God for the grace of a new day. In the end, we are all sinners looking to a gracious God. On the other hand, if we were genuinely seeking for a committable relationship and it turned out bad, let’s also look to God and keep hoping in Him for the right one.
That is what I got out of Josh Harris' teachings, and what I tried to teach my teens. Why clutter your life with game playing and serial heartbreak when you are not yet in a life place for marriage? Young people should be able to discover who they are in Christ and what God has for them to do as ministry instead of spending every waking moment consumed with thoughts of dead end romantic relationships.
I agree with you about Josh Harris. I also recognize that Bill Gothardism is absolutely unbiblical over all. I would recommend all people to stay away from those heresies and falsehoods since they will warp your thinking and you will eventually have to unload that baggage to go forward in faith.
Past generations of serious disciples of Jesus, including the Puritans who were very well versed in how to handle one's romances and engage in proper male and female relationships would be a good place to go for study. They have been a absolutely misrepresented by many about these issues. Outside of marriage, male and female relationships by Christians always has to be lived out by a confidence and trust in our Lord, His word, and the power of the Holy Spirit up front in those relationships. We need not go around paranoid that we are going to get entangled in something sinful, but yet, we cannot afford to function in a loose, anything goes, and have no watchfulness about the temptations which come through the world, the flesh and the devil. To do so indicates a very unspiritual posture as well as a naïve view of real life issues in this world.
One must conduct themselves in a godly pure hearted manner toward those of the opposite sex. The flesh is always weak and we do have to remember that when we are involved in any situation whereby temptations can come our way. Being troubled about this means something is not quite correct in a persons views about their relationships with the Lord. Examination of how we are really thinking in our souls about life by prayer, study and perhaps even mentorship with a godly person of the same sex would be in order.
response to authors letter
I have recently myself come out of some unhealthy thinking by years of pulling away from churches bible studies teachings at home radio programs etc
I was constantly filling up my own mind with so much stuff and I myself was getting mixed things in my mind that were untrue
sometimes we ourselves can get confused and get bad ideas about whats being said
I dont know your own group this is jut my own life experience
I used to think oh those people churhes messed me up but no one forced my ears opened
to hear
and sometimes it your own mind gave you funny
That was beautiful but I see you were meaning for all those things to be seen as wrong but it just made my heart leap with joy when I read those views
there beutiful views
its not wrong to see world like that
I have never heard an argument against courtship and the whole concept of giving your heart away, written so clearly. Rejected it myself as a teen, but I can relate to feeling uncomfortable talking to men. That whole..."does this look bad" feeling.
Great job!
"Does this look bad?" It only looks bad to those who are looking for any reason to think badly of you. That has been my experience. Someone else said, "Evil has to be present in order for there to be an appearance of it." (While I think there are certain situations that the above comment doesn't apply to, having a conversation with someone of the opposite gender is not one of them.)
Oh my goodness. I cannot thank you enough for writing this. It just lit up in my head with beautiful clarity and helped me experience some further healing from similar teachings that I grew up with.
I wanted to give you a head's up- I quoted you in my blog, and included a link to this website. One or two people still trapped in that kind of religious thinking read my blog, (childhood friends) and I keep hoping maybe someday they'll find their way out.
Anyway, thanks again for writing this.
Thank you for this site, and for this very specific portion of the site.
I fell madly & deeply in love at 21 while living/working at the IBLP Headquarters in Oak Brook. I was shamed into believing that I was sinning, he was sinning. We were just two people who connected at a heart level, and at a season of our human lives where the development of a relationship deeper than friendship was a normal, healthy path.
Not only was it wrong and a sin to have a dating relationship at the HQ, a formula (as you defined it) dictated that "he find his financial path to be able to support a family". This belief, and the parents involved forced us to quench all feelings, emotion, and personal contact. I was shamed into believing that any contact from him - until an official courtship blessed by parents was extended - was a SIN.
Two years later, when he'd reached his "formula" of success as determined by this ministry & his well-intentioned parents, I was too broken and too hurt to allow myself to enter back into the relationship. FEAR kept me from loving & losing that man again. I will always wonder *what if*. If our lives hadn't been tainted by "a formula", rules of man, fear, and shame. . . if we had simply been allowed to *be*. To love each other freely and happily without fear or shame.
Today, I am 13+ years married to an amazing, godly Christian man - someone whose life was never tainted by a church or organization that rewrote the Bible or his faith for him. I feel grateful. My mess is big enough for the both of us. I do resonate with Darcy's testimony of how very difficult (and non-existent) friendships with other men are for me. I am highly uncomfortable engaging in a simple conversation with another man.
Presently, my spiritual journey is one of raw, painful surrender. I am in a place where everything I thought I knew and believed about God is being turned upside down. I am beginning to understand that my righteousness, my need to do it "the right way" is just as filthy as someone else's unfaithfulness to God. It's a very painful place to be. But I believe I am where I should be. Need to be.
My friend, I ache for your pain, what that must have been for you. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I hope you are comforted from your past.
Thank you so much! I had forgotten where that "piece of your heart" concept came from. I remember always having the nagging thought that my marriage was not whole because I dated other women and my wife didn't have have my whole heart because I had given parts away...always felt guilty about that.
As the author of Emotional Purity I completely agree!
Too many looked to the form of Emotional purity to keep them pure, nothing but a work of the Spirit and complete dependence upon God for purity in relationships will work.
I wrote this blog piece recently which expresses my heart: http://emotionalpurity.blogspot.com/2011/05/052611-world-magazine.html
Hi Heather,
I'm a little puzzled by your support of this article. When I lived at home, my family, who was in ATI, read your book "Emotional Purity: An Affair of the Heart," and I believe I recall your using an illustration in your book similar to that used by Josh Harris.
If I remember correctly, you said that every time we "like" someone who does not end up being our spouse, it's like handing that person our heart, and you likened the emotional interaction that took place to licking a lollipop. You said that, the more people you "like," the more people that you allow to "lick" your heart until the heart finally gets around to your spouse. The implication is that these "affairs" of the heart do indeed make people damaged goods and our hearts something we should be ashamed of giving to our spouses.
While I heartily agree with your above statement that purity comes from dependence on God, I feel that so many people don't know how to do friendships and even appropriate relationships with the opposite gender because they're afraid of giving their heart to the wrong person. This fear largely springs from the whole courtship/emotional purity movement's un-Biblical emphasis and manipulative illustrations of relationships ruined by not following the author's personal relationship advice.
Yes, relationships that don't work out can and most of the time do leave some emotional scars. But just like we don't go through life intentionally getting scars, neither do we go through life avoiding necessary activities even though they expose us to the possibility of bodily harm. Risk is a part of life - yes it must be taken in wisdom, and yes it must be taken only at Jesus' direction through the Spirit, but we cannot be paralyzed because we fear getting hurt. While I'm sure that you would agree with this statement, I do not recall your emphasizing this balancing principle in your book.
Basically, in light of what I remember reading in your book, your comment and support of this article surprised me. Maybe you've changed some of your stances; maybe you've revised your book; maybe nothing has changed. Irregardless, my desire is not to be quarrelsome - I just wanted to clarify what seems to me to be an incongruity between your post here and the book you've written. If I have made any errors or if my conclusions are not accurate, please clarify and correct me wherever appropriate.
Irregardless isn't a word. Ir is a prefix meaning "without" and regardless means "without regard" so "irregardless" would mean "without without regard.
Can we PLEASE stick to the topic. When you butt in with a correction of grammar is it immature, unloving and pointless. Thank you.
Unfortunately, Irregardless is a word. I think it shouldn't be, but alas it is. Undoubtable it has become so because people use it all the time... The adaptability of language is wonderful.
Alex,
Sorry I just saw this.
I would suggest you get a copy of my revised edition of Emotional Purity published by Crossway in 2006.
My first edition was writing when I was 22/23. As much as I tried to avoid all legalistic tendencies in that book too many people who have a bend towards the law, found it comforting to apply rules to their children.
My second edition was writing/revised when I was 31 and married with 2 kids.
I grew up in a legalistic church, left when I was 14. Again, I tried to avoid a "one-size" fits all for emotional purity, but people read into it what they saw fit.
Too many clung to emotional purity out of fear not faith.
Thanks for comment.
"Written"...blah..long day ;-)
I applaud the intent of this website. It is long overdue. However, words should be tempered. If we truly love those who are still caught in many of the fallacies, we can illuminate things without being ungracious. Doing so could negate ones credibility as people who are bitter instead of addressing the core issues, which you delineated well.
There have been some improvements in IBLP regarding relationships. In the last 3 years a lot of relationships on staff have started happening. Now, if only the rules would be relaxed for the undergrads and younger people to start having relationships earlier and more freely. We can pray for that and write careful, gracious yet truthful articles. I look forward to reading more.
Liz,
One of the unique features of Recovering Grace is that our articles are written by a large number of authors (40-50 on our team) who all come from different perspectives. We allow each of them the freedom to speak as individuals in their own voice and with their own personality. Thus, there will be some variety in tone and character. However, we feel that Darcy delineated the issues clearly and powerfully.
I see nothing ungracious about this post. It's *excellent* and right on the money. Good for you, Darcy, for relating your experience so honestly. One of the things I am *still* working through (after being out of ATI for 10 yrs) is the inability to speak my mind. Ever. For fear of "offending" or sounding "ungracious." I applaud you!
I agree with Annonymous. Thank you Darcy for writing this and for your transparency in sharing. May God use your story to help others and continue to bring healing to you. May others find the healing and freedom from their bondage that you have found. As a parent, I have many regrets from my involvement in IBLP/ATI and the things I taught my kids. It really saddens me when others continue to justify or defend Bill's actions somehow thinking we are not to point out error,are wrong and bitter if we do. I'm growing in God's grace and loving every minute of it.
Illuminate things without being ungracious? There was nothing ungracious about Darcy's post. The expression of emotion is not wrong, discrediting, or ungracious!
There have been some improvements? "Now, if only the rules would be relaxed?"
How about: "Now, if only lies were not being taught as Biblical Principles by the leaders and parents involved in the CULT that is IBLP." The damage done by those lies has been inestimable in my own life and in the lives of unknown thousands of others.
No one has the right to threaten another with shame for experiencing or expressing an emotion, as you've just done, Ms. Meyer.
Darcy strikes me as a very lively personality, and most likely the type of person who calls a spade a spade, and doesn't mince words. I could see how such a personality might come across to the reader as ungracious or flippant, but please be sure to take personalities into account when determining whether or not someone is being wise and gracious. :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. I grew up in ATI, and I worked for IBLP for a year running one of their programs, so I am very familiar with their teaching. Every story I've read on this website so far rings true of my experience, and I too am having to re-learn who God is and who I am as his child. I too believe that many who encourage "courtship" have a twisted concept of relationships and falling in love, and am so grateful that God brought some light and healing to me before I met and fell in love with my husband.
However, I urge you, and others who have commented, to be a bit more gracious in our responses to those with whom we disagree. As I have moved more and more out of the spiritual bubble in which I grew up (as most ATI families live) I've been utterly shocked at what is happening in our world. Understanding more what my parents and others like them were reacting to, my harshness softens. Nine year olds are having to make sexual decisions these days, and a teacher friend told me a story of another teacher overhearing an eleven year old talk about when she lost her virginity. Conservative Christians may have a wrong concept of romantic relationships, but so do unbelievers, and I firmly believe that in order to make a difference in our culture we need to be less about reacting to false teaching and more about loving as Christ loves.
Again, thank you for sharing, and I appreciate the courage it takes to say what you said.
"Like" what you said.
I agree with you. I think there is a balance to be found. We need to teach principles to our children and not formulas. We also need to remember that everything is not going to be exactly the same for everyone.
First, I want to say that I am totally not attacking your comment. It was really interesting and got me thinking and this is what I came up with:
I think the problem is that they are equally wrong (the world and ATI). How can we reach out and help the world if we are isolated from them in a judging fashion as ATI is? If we educate our children to do said set of principles and their life will go as God planned... and then it doesn't... aren't we raising children to doubt God? What will those children teach their children? Won't that encourage more of the shocking world we are seeing?
The world will go on being utterly shocking. And yes, many parents panic and accept the bubble as the alternative and so these parents aren't who is under fire here.
What I believe I have seen clearly in all these articles is the facts. If we were discussing the president of the country we could easily point out which facts are the fault of his failed policy. Why is that not being gracious?
If every story rings true then isn't it simply that... true, not gracious or ungracious... just the truth.
Wendy, thanks for your response - it sparked some more thoughts, which you can take or leave.
On your final point, I agree: no one is helped by avoiding facts or turning them into vague allusions in order to sound nicer. I see graciousness, though, as an attitude that may or may not accompany truth. While I agree with the consequences Darcy points out of the "emotional purity" teachings, and that there needs to be some refocusing and a good dose or perspective brought into conservative Christian circles on the topic, I personally sensed that there was a lack of graciousness.
Also, along side of graciously exposing wrong ways of thinking there needs to be at least an equal amount of healthy rebuilding, something else that is lacking in this article (not that it needed to be to fulfill the author's purpose), and that is where my initial comment on being "less about reacting to false teaching and more about loving as Christ loves" came from. It is really really easy to expose wrong ideas to the point where we forget to move on and rebuild. With an issue that is as complicated and not-straightforward as romantic relationships, we are all bound to disagree on some points with believers and non-believers alike.
One thing is clear though: we are commanded to love one another, and I am convinced that if we spent more time focusing on that and on true unity (as opposed to uniformity), then we would have a lot easier time when it comes to discerning what to do with our emotions in our relationships.
As far as what we then should teach our children - I have a long way to go in answering that question. Since I don't have any children of my own yet, I at least have some time to work out how that will look and take place in our family. You offer the two alternatives, sheltering in a bubble which may lead them to doubt God (on a side note I believe that doubting God is a normal and natural part of becoming spiritually mature, and is an insufficient reason on it's own to not shelter our children) I do believe that conservative Christians are right on strongly emphasizing a very important point: sexual purity before marriage is extremely important and biblical and the way in which we handle our emotions can affect that area of life. "the way" though is where I disagree with them. Then there is the way the world does it - letting their children be exposed to anything and everything which is also not ideal.
Personally I think there has to be some way quite different than either of these. I don't know what it is yet, but there has to be a way in which to shelter my kids in a healthy way while at the same time equipping them to be adults who will have to make their own decisions one day and also having a healthy response to exposure that is inevitably going to happen no matter how protective I may be. I don't believe that I have to shield my child from everything an anything in the world, but nor do I believe that they should simply be allowed to see and hear everything that a lot of children are being allowed to sea and hear.
I have a long ways to go in unraveling everything, and I am so grateful for all of the ways that God uses in guiding me and helping me know what is true and what is not - this article included!
YES! I was raised to desire an emotionally pure heart, but I was also raised to know that God's grace would be the main thing saving me from myself, and saving my heart from the world that it lives in. Now, I am a mother of 2 little boys who daily asks for wisdom in teaching them how to live for the princess that will one day become their queen! I pray that I can teach them how to adjust the divine tension that is grace vs. justice in their lives and hearts, especially when it comes to relationships!
I have begun to wonder why Bill invented courtship to be so indescribably strict and controlling, when there is absolutely no reference to any such thing in Scripture, that I know of. There is 'leave and cleave' (with no reference to getting permission from anyone), and there are at least two references that I know of where God and Paul made the statement (about women, no less) 'let them marry whom they will.' in various context and situations, and the only other command that I know of to abstain until marriage.
I hesitate to present this thought, as it could literally be a false accusation, but I would like to see if anyone has any evidence to support it, if not, I will discard the thought: I think that Bill was unable to get certain (if not any) girls to like him when he was a youth, and the consequent rejection he must have felt may have turned into some kind of jealousy for other's relationship happiness? And the subconscious feelings from that situation led him to create his idea of 'God blessed courtship' to be as difficult and painful as possible for young people to fall in love, as a subtle form of revenge on whoever rejected him. (please note that I think it is a subconscious situation, one that he is most likely not aware of doing, and yes, the mind sometimes does work this way, from everything I've ever seen. After all, as he quotes often, 'the heart is deceitful, who can know it?')
I have observed a relative for years make everyone's life miserable, and always wondered why. I began to see that this person was reacting to their own past, and I knew enough about their past to put two and two together on certain issues. Whatever this relative is unhappy about in their life (which is pretty much everything by now), it's impossible for them to rejoice for someone else, and in many cases, it's difficult for them to even be kind. They are controlling beyond anything I have ever seen. This person is also one of the most self absorbed people I've ever met, and STUCK in a victim mindset, to the point where they actually denied doing some really mean things that other people witnessed them doing. "I would NEVER do that!" I have alot of pity for this relative, I see how miserable they are, but there is nothing I can do for them, besides pray. (believe me, I've tried.)
I speak of my relative so that it will be clear, I'm not just making something up for the heck of it. I've observed, watched, discovered things about the way the mind works, and this is why I have arrived to this possible conclusion about BG, and I do hope that it is an errant conclusion. But it does make sense, I just want to know if anyone else has seen any behavior or lack thereof that could point to this?
There may be some who ask, 'if you hope it's an errant conclusion, why post it? Are you just trying to stir up trouble/accuse a man of God, etc...' No, I am not. If this turns out to be a true situation, think of how freeing it may be for many many people who might otherwise experience the misery that so many on here have experienced? I am blessed to have a marriage that is literally heaven on earth. I wish everyone was as happy as I and my husband are. The Lord has greatly worked on my heart to be able to forgive BG for some of the awful things I have experienced through his teachings. (I'm going on the 70x7 model, it's a work in progress) but God has been merciful and kind to me, and I am extremely grateful for His goodness.
I hope I have made my heart and intentions clear about this post, and I hope this was the right place to post it.
Heather,
EXACTLY!
Something invented to control others. Courtship is no less than..."arranged marraige" under a spiritual wording.
I don't know that BG's situations were, but I do know a few guys who tried to "force" me into dating them.
And I said NO.
I know some women who told me I was passing up good men, Ha!
I really liked how you said this. Really liked it.
My reply is coming three years after the comment. Just finding this stuff. When I was 18 I went off to Bible school on my own dime and against the direction of the Institute. I was studying Proverbs under a pastor who also had a Ph.D. in the wisdom literature of the old testament. He pointed out that most people either opt for a "monastery approach" to parenting where the child is walled off from all potential harm and negative influence or the "school of hard knocks approach" where the kids has to get out and get beaten up by the world by making all the wrong decisions. Proverbs actually shows a middle ground...kids that are given access to the streets but with a parent near by helping them see where different paths lead.
As a child of two elementary school aged little girls now I sense the danger of over exposure in those early years to sexual issues. As our girls move to their teen years I hope that we can talk openly about these issues without using control and fear to tighten a vice around them and shame them deeply for who they are and the things they feel.
Another note: When sharp black and white lines are drawn up around an issue like dating it seems that those who cross even very innocent lines often feel a guilt that is damaging and that if left to immature black and white thinking may see themselves as all black. "If I'm all black then I might as well go all the way." I've seen this happen with ATI kids who stepped over Bill's concocted moral lines...they were left shamed, guilty, and condemned and then left with less guidance and paths for healthy dating than even non-believing kids were.
A second note: Another flaw in the courtship model is that far from guarding hearts from the hurt of casual dating it often escalated romantic interest into what was really defacto engagement in a very premature way. "Courting" meant "we're getting married." When those courtships ended it was devastating for people because it was like ending an engagement. What a backfire! Even the guy meeting with the dad of the girl could rightly be construed int he courtship model as desire to marry her. How could it not? Epic fail.
Awesome points. Your note about crossing lines... Yes, I felt it was shameful for being in the same room as a man, letting my male friends give me brief hugs when greeting or saying goodbye or any contact was uncomfortable. When I crossed those lines, I find it easier to cross other lines. As long as I was living in shame anyway. Now please understand, I only ever had two boyfriends. And not dating around did protect me from a lot of stuff. But once I did have a good boyfriend, who is my hubby now, I found that all those rules I had one depend on were easy to throw out the window. And the shame I felt over throwing out the rules followed me into marriage. Is taken us years to work through the ridiculous thought patterns I had in my head. One of my pet peeves is that as a teen almost all of what I was taught in church and home educating was, "sex is bad". So then after I get married, suddenly I'm supposed to switch to," sex is good?" I remember on the way to the hotel after getting married, still in my wedding dress, praying to ask the Lord to forgive us for what was coming ahead, yet looking forward to it and dreading it at the same time!
After reading this article and sharing it with my husband, we had the realization that when he said, "I love you" for the first time to me, it took me too long to respond because I was trying to figure out if it was okay to say it, even though I felt it and knew it. He thought maybe I want ready. I was couldn't believe he wasn't waiting until our wedding day to say it. Then I realized I had better respond, because the last thing I wanted to do was lose this amazing man God had given me! We look back and laugh now. We've been married 11 years. It took that long to get that misconception cleared up.
That is awesome!!! Scared to look at any guy in the eye for fear that I wasn't guarding my eyes. The direct wall between me and all men in the universe became severe. I thank God that He was able to heal me enough to meet my wonderful husband (who has helped me through so much of this) and that I now have very healthy and pure friendships with other men. Which is a good thing since I now have 11 brother-in-laws.
Described perfectly in point 3: "They create skewed views of relationships which lead to dysfunction."
And, yes, time and God's REAL love can heal us!!!!
This is EXACTLY how I've felt for years. You just totally summed it up. The "not being able to look someone in the eye without feeling badly for it somehow", and that somehow I need to keep myself away from people and that if I like anyone at all it's wrong. I, too, feel that if I talk to a married man, even if his wife is right there, I am getting attention from him that only his wife should be getting. I feel super self-conscious around married men to make sure that I'm ultra-modest, because I don't want to hurt married women and I don't want them to think I have anything wrong in my heart towards their spouse.
I sooo much appreciate the motives of keeping yourself physically pure for your spouse and not being the flirtitious type who is always trying to get attention from any and every source she can, but I do think that the ultra-conservative courtship methods have gone way too far.
For instance, even in the "olden" days in the real life stories of "Little House" written by Laura Ingalls, she was allowed in her mid-teens to go riding alone with Almonzo in his buggy. Obviously girls did get married earlier back then than they do now, so it wasn't just "recreational dating" as its known, but rather a young man actually pursuing the goal of marriage. They kissed once they got engaged, and I think that was pretty typical even in Christian families in the 1800s. I can certainly understand why people wouldn't do that (lest it open the door for temptations, etc.), but not holding hands and not telling your future spouse "I love you," is really ridiculous! God created people to love each other, and it doesn't make you any holier just because you've kept fifteen feet between you and your spouse. In fact, it might make the start of your marriage rougher if you are uncomfortable around each other because you've only been allowed to talk with parents or siblings looking over your shoulders.
So there's my two-cents worth! I'm NOT at all upset, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. It's just so overwhelming to look at life and think, "How will I ever get to know anyone if I always have to stay away from them?" If you're ALWAYS "guarding your heart" from the stranger, no stranger will ever be given the opportunity to become a friend or potentially a spouse.
I was 12/13 when I first was taught at a regional ATI seminar about "keeping my heart." (I am now 31 and unmarried, though not from desiring to be unmarried.) At the regional conference two older respected girls explained the severity of "sinning" by giving away our hearts to men through any sort of emotional attachment or even thoughts of "I like him" (I believe she used Prov. 4:23). One (perhaps both) explained how she wrote a list of all the men/boys to whom she'd given a piece of her heart (i.e., had a crush on or liked, nothing like physical involvement--the guys didn't know!). She then gave the list to her father, confessing her "sin" to him, and they prayed, "reclaiming" those pieces of her heart, and finally burned the list. I came away determined to do the same thing, and finally came up with nearly a notebook page of names of guys whom I'd thought about or wondered if they liked me. I burned that list with my dad, and to this day still feel a twinge of false guilt if I find myself attracted to someone.
At this conference and subsequent conferences (Counseling Seminar '94 [junior high/high school students being "trained" to counsel peers and elders!], Knoxville '92-on, etc.) we also heard testimonies of older female students who claimed God's blessing on their lives resulting from purposing to never speak to a man/boy unless it was for business. We were told by Mr. Gothard to not make eye contact or smile in a way that might be considered "encouraging," that we as women should squint at a man if we had to talk to them (so he wouldn't get "any ideas"), and that making vows to not marry or consider romantic relationships until a later age and instead devote ourselves to ministry (incidentally, ministry within IBLP/ATI) were the only way to truly serve God wholeheartedly. "Shining examples" (other students who'd made those vows) were held before us, and we were asked/encouraged to make similar vows. I was 16 when I made such a vow. My vow was until I was 21, which was short compared to vows of others.
We were told that by following "God's way" (i.e., what was set before us by ATI) we would be blessed with godly courtships and godly marriages. If my heart was increasingly drawn to one man, and it wouldn't go away with prayer and fasting, it meant that was probably God's will and if I just kept "serving" that man would eventually ask for me to court him, even if we'd never spoken together. The right man or the right man's father would see me "serving the Lord" (even though I squinted at him and wouldn't talk to him), would ask those around me for my dad's phone number, he'd talk to my dad without my knowledge for my protection, and then I would be presented with the choice of a courtship--and who could really say "no" to God's "obvious" will?
I followed what was said to the tee, but found myself increasingly frustrated, and heartbroken, especially when the man I'd admired from afar for years chose to marry my friend. Of course, that "really" meant that I was seeing the effect of my "sin" of having thought about him during my vow, of having not "kept" my heart, etc. I sinned, therefore was not blessed by God to marry that man.
My life now? I am 31, and unmarried (not by choice or vow, now!). I began questioning and distancing myself from IBLP/ATI at age 22/23, but the process of re-learning who God really is, who I am in Christ, and what he has given me through the Gospel of the grace of Christ is still ongoing. I am still working through the long-term effects of having effectively shut down my emotions for 10+ years. My capability for healthy male-female relationships was damaged, though it's slowly healing and becoming whole by the grace of God, the Great Healer of my heart.
AJ, I TOTALLY relate to your situation!! I am almost 31 and single (not by choice) and did the whole "single service to God" from age 18-21 at which time I also fell for a guy who married someone else. And yes, to this day I struggle in my relationships with guys. Because I have been focused on ministry for so long I have a hard time letting a guy know that I am interested or in good, healthy flirting (God forbid that I use that word!)
Anyway, my situation is pretty complicated and over the past 5 years especially God has had me on this journey of helping me to break free but, like you said, it is a slow, painful process that no one understands unless they were raised in it themselves!! I would love to chat more if you want, I have a heart now to help women who are in the same boat as I am as a result of some of this teaching. God bless!
To both R and AJ,
yep. I didn't go the extreme route of not looking guys in the eye, but almost became two people. One around non-BG and another around BG people.
I am seeing this now. I can't change my past..I'm 46 and single, but...I will trust the Lord for my future and work through those "thinkings" that may have kept me "untouchable."
Sincere apologies. My previous post had paragraph breaks for readability, but the formatting disappeared!
Love this post. Another wise man said: "There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness." (Proverbs 30:12).
I'm not sure I understand the gentle reprimand in a couple of the comments to "remain gracious toward IBLP/Bill Gothard." Darcy's article, and the responses/experiences shared here *are*, in my opinion, both respectful and gracious. If comment content was not appropriate, I would imagine it would be moderated.
my thoughts exactly
I am reminded of the story of "The Emporer's New Clothes," and of the boy who would not be silent. Thank you for being A Voice for those who cannot or will not speak.
My parents ingrained that children's story into me when I was a little boy.
Amen, brother.
Speak the truth.
Preach the Word.
I grew up with the ATI curriculum but didn't have the same experience many on here had. We live in Canada and didn't have many ATI families in our area. My Parents never idolized Mr. Gothard.
Because of where I grew up and how my parents used the program, I had, for the most part, a positive experience, I can understand why others may not have though. When our focus is taken off the Lord and on to people and methods it will never work.
I grew up struggling with boys, sometimes I wonder if it was more than the average girl struggles with. I agree on with those who write books on purity mainly just the Ludy's. relationships with the opposite gender should not be frowned upon but not too close. I can speak of personal experience and being from the opposite end. My husband did not grow up like me at all! He was not a virgin when we got married. At times it hurts that he did not wait for me and that I was not his first and only one. But He grew up in a very legalistic controlling Mennonite home, and left it for another cult. after that he threw it all away for two years.
I have had a close friend who loved the Lord and sought his will before entering into a courtship, but in the end it did not work out.
with the things I was taught, I was confused. Would God let something like that happen, was that relationship God's will? I believe it was and she did too. She is now married to someone else, but talking with her, she told me it gave her a new perspective of who God was. As long as you are walking in God's will that's what matters. There is not set method for courtship (physical purity is important) each relationship is so different.
That idea I think is what made the first month of our courtship very hard. I grew up hearing of all these wonderful courtship stories about how boy and girl have an attraction , after the "go ahead" they have a heavenly relationship, and get married. When Mine didn't happen that way. For many years i struggled with having crushes on guys, so when I had an attractions to my now husband I was so tired of feeling that way over and over again, I killed it completely. When the time came he was nothing more than a friend. and with the pressure of this relationship leading to marriage, I clammed up. after several weeks things smoothed out. People say it was just that I had guarded my heart for so long, but I don't know.
We are happily married with a beautiful daughter, and I definitely want to home school our children. Our goal is to point them to Jesus Christ and not isolate them from this world but to prepare them to walk with Him on their own.
Thanks to all those who have shared from their heart, their journey to freedom.
I thank you soooo much for this article! One of the other problems not touched on with the courtship idea is that if you are to begin courting someone whom your parents approve of, you actually may not want to truly marry this person. I did just that. I didn't want to have given my heart away (which is very easy to do when courtship first begins) only to have to take it back again, stop the courtship and then wait for a new beau with my broken heart. Because of feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place, I married him after a very brief courtship. I was proud and self-righteous and expected God to bless me because I followed my parents instructions perfectly. As my marriage continued on more and more secrets came to light that I should NOT have married this person and followed my initial promptings. Now I have experienced unfaithfulness and divorce, leaving my 3 oldest children with a broken family. For a long time I blamed God and my parents - I mean who else was there to blame? They set it up and it should have worked out. But God showed me His Grace. I am blessed beyond words for His true workings of redemption in spite of my failings. I will discourage my children from courtship - but I hope they will be thoughtful in dating and exercise good judgement with my gentle guidance.
I read this article twice. It is well-written. And by that I mean it uses good grammar and sentence structure...
What I fail to see is Biblical support for your point of view. Just because you were "met with blank or incredulous stares from people [you] consider 'normal,' good Christians" does not mean that your conclusion is right. Jeremiah 17:9: says "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"
If emotional purity is just hogwash, what about physical purity? Is the whole thing just overrated in legalistic churches and environments?
Everyone's experiences are his own and everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but if you are going to say something is right or wrong Scripturally, then you need to provide Biblical basis for your conclusions. Is this something you can do? Thanks!
~Waiting to be persuaded
I agree; I failed to see Biblical support also. And thank you for asking all those questions! It is very appropriate that you ask her to prove her conclusion with Scripture. Unfortunately, she couldn't. Nor did she answer any of your questions. Pity. I was looking forward to hearing her answers.
Darcy's position was very clear. All of the teachings which she was addressing are extra-biblical in nature. The Bible is silent as to the area of emotional purity in relationships. The burden of proof is not on Darcy. The burden of proof lies with those who think God's word isn't enough to guide us in the area of relationships and take it upon themselves to create another set of principles to live by.
Personally, I don't agree that the Bible is silent in the area of emotional purity. I think that people have taken emotional purity too far. I believe that Matthew 5:28 is all the emotional purity that the Lord talks about - "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Renee, I think we have been misled even with this passage. Matthew 5-7 was taught to us ATI students as a bit of a "guide to life", but if you read it carefully and in context, it is much more about redemption.
For instance, the verse you quoted where Jesus said, "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." This verse was taken to mean that not only adultery is wrong, but even looking upon a woman with lust is wrong. So we are left with this fear that a look means lust, or that anything more than a few seconds means lust. And girls are told to cover up to help men not violate the scriptures and lust. . .
But what if Jesus simply meant--all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? What if he was explaining that our depravity is complete--from little sins to big ones? What if he was just trying to give us the most ridiculous, most impossible example, so that it would be obvious to the most obtuse that nobody can be perfect all the time? Matthew 5-7 is such a redeeming passage--why did Bill Gothard have to turn it into laws?
I also think it is possible that the way we define "lust" is beyond its intended definition. In the Song of Solomon, the desire for and obsession over a woman is more than evident--in the sight of her body, the mystery of her shape, her grace. Is admiring--even imagining--the sin? If so, then isn't our very God-given design flawed, since we are created to have those reactions to human beauty?
Maybe if we could come to an understanding of respect for others, personal responsibility, loyalty, trust, honesty--the things we should teach our children anyway--then we would realize that it isn't sinful to admire or be admired. The sin is in what we choose to do about it. Do we "deserve" to cheat on our spouse, because we're unhappy with our lives and they aren't meeting our needs? IMO, the behaviors are the sin. A married man who compliments me on my dress, or my shoes, or that I've lost a few pounds is not necessarily flirting with me. Maybe he has come to the realization in his own life that when you see something you admire, you should say something--because it is a nice thing to say. And on my part, I throwing his gift back if I act embarrassed or offended that he happened to notice. It is our choice as individuals whether we decide to turn an innocent mutual admiration into an emotional or physical affair.
Because that's the fear, isn't it? If you notice, then you will admire, and if you admire, then you may lust, and if you lust, then you may sin, because after all we can't help ourselves.
Yes, we can.
I think there are levels of modesty and appropriateness based on where we choose to be (church, pool, home, etc.). But mostly, I think we need to respect each other wherever we are, whoever we are, whatever we are wearing, doing, or saying.
I totally agree that looking at someone is not lusting after them. Whoever thinks that is severely misled. God created beauty and he wants us to appreciate it. And you can appreciate without lusting.
It is clear that not just the action is sin, but also, the thought or meditation on that action. This was made clear with the new covenant. And just because you had a sinful thought for a split second, does not necessarily mean you've sinned; it's once you've invited that thought in and have meditated on it, that you have sinned.
I also disagree with your proposition that the Bible is silent on emotional purity. Song of Solomon, a book of passion, is very clear in its message: "I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles or the does of the field, that you not stir up or awaken love until it pleases." God's design is for the passions to be aroused and blossom toward the one we are to marry.
The message of Proverbs is clear: "Drink water from your own cistern, flowing water from your own well. Should your springs be scattered abroad, streams of water in the streets?
Let them be for yourself alone, and not for strangers with you..." (Prov 5:15-17, ESV).
--Intimate relationships with members of the opposite sex are designed only for marriage.
I agree with much of what this writer had to say in the extremes of Gothardites, but I find often that in reacting to the improper application of Scripture, some Christians tend to go too far the other way in condoning the casual girlfriend/ boyfriend idea of relationships that the world has peddled to us. Instead, singles are to seek the Lord and enter dating relationships with the intent for marriage (see 1 Cor 7).
Thank you, Moderator!
I think a good passage to measure any application of Jeremiah 17:9 by would be Mark 15:37-38..."And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom." That changes the context of the deceitful, wicked heart pretty dramatically...As far as purity, Titus 1:15..."To the pure, all things are pure"...Or Acts 10:15..."Do not call anything impure that God has made clean"...There's really no need to "disprove" from scripture a concept that's entirely extra-biblical. For instance, if someone believed antiperspirant was wrong, would they need to, or be able to, prove it scripturally? Would we require them to? Sometimes we just need to apply common sense and discernment, and not confuse religious cultural ideas with biblical command.
Lewis, You have a good intent. However, you have violated proper biblical hermeneutics (interpretation). In the Scriptures, we are not justified using an obscure or indirect passage to reinterpret a clear, didactic (teaching) passage of the Bible. The veil being ripped in two does not directly teach us anything about interpreting Jer 17:9. In fact the NT confirms this passage in Rom 3.
Hi, Waiting. The short answer is that God understands your heart. Yes, a man’s natural heart may tend toward evil, but God searches the heart, creates within us a pure, clean heart, and tells us not to let our heart be troubled. His Spirit “speaks” to our spirit…and He might also speak to us through the reaction of other Christians who are living lives bearing fruit. With the heart man believes.
[Okay, I paraphrased, but that paragraph is chock full of scripture.]
As with all topics, we need to keep a balance and view verses within the total context of God’s Word to us. Otherwise, we might read “Love the Lord your God with all your heart…” and interpret that to mean that our heart can never be given to anyone else, including parents, spouse, or children. After all, God has to have every “piece.” But that doesn’t fit the story of the Bible. The human heart is meant to be shared (our faith is relational), and that is necessary for emotional health. Our bodies are not shared the same way, and God gives guidance about that topic through numerous other verses...which I won't go into here. But emotional and physical are not synonymous. Make sense?
The thing is that I fail to see is how courtship is Biblically recommended as the "right" way to approach marriage. In the Scriptures, marriages were typically conducted in accordance to cultural norms of that time. Based on that, I would expect to continue the pursuit of marriage and relationships in accordance to current cultural norms. It's quite possible to date kindly and with purity. Yes, hurt can come from dating relationships, but I've personally experienced a much deeper wounding from a failed courtship. That failed courtship took me nearly ten years to get over, whereas my failed dating relationships took days to weeks to move past. In my opinion, dating was a better way for me to "guard my heart".
Thank you for writing what I was thinking, waiting to be persuaded!
Such a treatment of the topic as you ask for will certainly appear in the Twisting Scripture section at some point in the future.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9
Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Whenever someone overemphasizes the concept of godly soul mates (my own term, essentially "God has that person out there for you, so just wait for them"), this passage immediately comes to mind. I believe that God has a plan for our lives, and that plan involves a significant other for most of us, but in this passage, Paul treats marriage as something much less "divine" than we think of it today. He basically says "If you can't control your lust, get married, so you won't fall into sin." You can claim that Paul lacks an understanding of the romantic, but I think the fact that he places so little emphasis on it means that we tend to overthink it.
I don't know if this is enough Biblical evidence for you, but the concept of "emotional purity" is extremely extra-Biblical (read: Pharisaical), so I don't think that Biblical evidence against this is necessary. Note that, while there are many explicit verses dealing with physical purity, emotional purity is mostly explained through use of metaphor and imagery, rather than verse.
"It is a grave disservice to the spirit of a woman when she is given the subtle message that the truth of her own pain is not as important as the reputation of the ones who inflict it."
woah... where did this quote come from? this is dynamic on so many levels. thank you.
It came from here: http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/
It was coined by Hillary McFarland, blogger and author of the book "Quivering Daughters".
oh, wow
Wow. Sarah, wow.
Thank you for that affirmation, Sarah!
Waiting,
I am of the belief that God doesn't care whether I court, date, or have an arranged marriage. I think this is an area of freedom. So I have no desire to "prove" anything from Scripture. I don't believe scripture tells us one way or the other. We are to honor and respect all people, and there are many verses with the phrase "one-another" that tell us how we are to treat fellow humans. If you conduct your relationships (all of them, not just romantic) with these things in mind, then you will do fine. Added rules aren't necessary.
Where's the "like" button when you need it? :) Beautiful response.
well put!!!! dito the like button thing....
I wonder if the background of your conclusion is really the bigger debate of whether God's will is a circle or a dot. It sounds like you think circle. In this application, any words or action between members of the opposite sex that fall under the general heading of "honor and respect" are stamped with approval by God rather than there being a specific set of "yes and no's." Does this seem to accurately reflect your position?
What?!!! I am sorry but this seems so presumptuous and... circle or dot??? Where is the Biblical support for where either is wrong or right or even anything???
When I figure out what you mean, maybe I'll be able to give a succinct reply.. lol
"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"
An important question to ask would be...Did the people to whom Jeremiah 17:9 was written have the Holy Spirit living in their hearts?
Everything changed when the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom - and WE (our inner man, our "heart") became the temple of the Spirit of God.
Yet, we cannot walk around deceiving ourselves into thinking that we are less capable to fall into sin than anyone else. "Let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I have seen this vividly lately in a Christian leader in my circle that thought he didn't have to take precautions and then fell into immorality because of his pride.
Oh, phooey. I would rather my child "fall into sin" and understand grace, than to endure the legalistic bondage I endured, and which stunted my Christian growth. If my child fails, it's not the end of the world, and I want them to know that VERY clearly. There are worse things than "falling into sin". Far worse. Like, not having a real, meaningful relationship with God, and being paranoid of every little misstep.
Yes, Hannah! Thank you.
#4 is a BIG ONE for me. the equation is faulty and gives a very false sense of security. we are humans and, as young people, should be taught how to relate as well to the opposite sex as possible. this includes communicating with AND being careful about them. my ex and I followed all the rules, only to end up with our high-pedestal-relationship in the toilet (right along with my self worth). thanks for being brave and articulate, darcy!
I wish I could hug you. (Don't worry, I'm a girl, so it won't be too indecent. ;)
You've spoken my heart. Well done.
We build neat little formulas and say “THIS will keep me safe!” Then we blame God when our puny formulas fail.
Well said. I have seen and experienced this repeatedly.
Good point!
In response to the concerns that this artice is not based on scripture - I believe there are many people in the world who are afraid to truly follow the Holy Spirit. They want rules, regulations and legalism to "help" them not mess anything up. They're afraid of failure. And so, they surround themselves with rules. They take scripture out of context. Its much safer this way. Trusting the Holy Spirit in my life is risky. What if I'm wrong, what if I can't truly hear Him? But, this is exactly what God calls us to, to follow Him, to trust him, to KNOW Him, His Spirit "is in us." This, is true freedom.
I agree!! it's much easier for you to give me a rule then to make sure I am hearing the Holy Spirit right! Much of the Church, unfortunately is relying and teaching out rules instead of trusting the Holy Spirit!
True. I agree. Yet, we cannot divorce our relationship with the Spirit from the clear instructions of Scripture. We can easily deceive ourselves into thinking that God is okay with the choices that we make, when we are violating his continual call for relational purity in the NT (see esp. 1 Cor 7; 1 Thess 4:1-8).
No I would never suggest that we should not keep ourselves pure, that is not the issue. but how we go about that purity is the issue...do we keep purity by rules or by listening to the Holy Spirit as to what is right or wrong for you. Before I ever read a scripture about purity it was in my heart the desire to be pure, that does not negate the need for the word of GOD but it does keep me from making the Bible a law book a bunch rules I need to keep.
I love the article! I can tell you when this world of formulas came crashing down it's a little crazy how sutle the lies were that I believed. I am still in this process of being TOTALLY shocked that what I believe was wrong but the proof is in the fact that it did not work. That's why we have to follow the Spirit and not what sounds and looks good. You know this also makes me think how we take for granted the sutlety of the enemy!!!! I still don't hug men but I think this is a culture thing and some wisdom, this is where I am at right now.
just for the record I do not know anything about Bill Gollard, ATI curriculum, or IBLM. I have no idea what any of this stuff is and am not associated with any teachings or ministry. I just enjoyed the article!!!
Been thinking about this several more days... If I understand you correctly, it isn't really "emotional purity" that you reject, but rather the list of incidental interactions between men and women that are often labeled as defrauding. You WOULD expect a Christian to strive towards purity in his words, thoughts, actions, motives, etc. but you see the leading for this being the spirit of God in you at the moment, on the spot, whatever strikes you as right you'll do rather than thinking it through ahead of time and determining what interactions will always be trouble (a problem for you and/or potential problem for the other party) and commiting to avoid those alltogether. Does this accurately represent your view?
Excellent piece. You've really broken down this flawed way of thinking for those who need to understand what's wrong with it.
I agree that the idea that we give a little part of our hearts to past loves is not clearly taught in Scripture, but the picture that we have in the Scriptures is one of purity. We cannot condone dwelling on lustful thoughts or sensual actions (Matt 5:27-28; Phil 4:8; Ps 19:12-14; Thess 4:1-8). God's standard of purity in the Scriptures is higher than ours.
Also, the clear difference in Scripture to brotherly love and love between a man and woman are not kept clear in this article. Greek uses two words that can be translated brotherly love and another for sexual love. We cannot equate emotional or sexual feelings for an individual member of the opposite sex to brotherly love. This violates the clear distinction made in the New Testament.
I'm sorry for those who have been hurt through these teachings. At the same time I would say that not everything blamed on that teaching is accurate. I grew up going to public school and started dating my-now-husband at age 16. I had none of those teachings and still sometimes struggle with talking with other men. I think we have a responsibility to be modest in dress and actions but I also believe that godly men have a responsibility to govern their own thoughts. There is grace on both sides. I teach my daughters to save their heart for their husband but also let them know that having a crush on certain guys over the years is normal. But to start a relationship before they are old enough to get married sets them up for heartbreak. We've seen it happen over and over in their friends' lives. Love for a family member is totally different than the love you share with a man so I consider that different from having enough love for each of your children.
We live in a fallen world and no matter how you were raised or taught as a young person, there will be areas that need healing and redemption. You can stay stuck blaming others or you can seek for your deliverance and healing and move on knowing your God better and learn to walk in His grace and freedom.
Fern, I understand where you're coming from. But I think it's important to understand two things.
First, the goal here at Recovering Grace is not to just cast blame while wallowing in our woundedness. Our goal is healing, for ourselves and others. We want to expose false teaching to help other people avoid falling into the errors that we fell into, and we want to help liberate those who are labouring under such false doctrines.
For me, and I think for most of the rest of the Recovering Grace contributors, the goal is to help others. My pain and confusion can, in a sense, be "redeemed" if my story and my conclusions can help someone else. And there is a tremendous healing effect in sharing your story and knowing that you are not alone.
Second, we're not necessarily throwing out the godly teachings --- we are expressing disagreement with the way they were communicated and enforced. None of us would say that young people should throw modesty, discretion, and wisdom to the winds and sow wild oats to their hearts' content. We're saying that the teachings on emotional purity have been taken too far.
You say that you are making it clear to your daughter that having crushes is normal --- good for you! You're obviously a responsible and empathetic parent. But what if someone who seemed wise, caring, and kind, and who was considered a reliable teacher, someone whom you trusted, were to come along and say that having crushes was evidence of serious depravity in your daughter's life, and that they represented a grave moral failure? What if that teacher spoke in such a way that your daughter felt crushing shame and guilt over her innocent crushes?
Because that is what happened to the girls in many ATI and IBLP-influenced homes. Instead of mom and dad winking at each other and smiling indulgently over their daughter's crushes, or gently reminding her that she's not prepared to be married just yet, they punished her to "purge" her depraved soul from these unholy inclinations. They made her feel dirty and evil for simply thinking that a certain young man is attractive or interesting.
The emotions of a teenage girl are extremely fragile. Many of these girls, after just one or two harsh reactions to a crush, became terrified even to talk to a boy, in case they got in trouble again.
Please understand that I am not saying these were bad parents. I don't think so, in most cases. Their motives were good --- they wanted to protect their daughter, and they wanted to live in a way that pleased God. And they trusted a teacher who told them that he had seen certain things work to protect girls from the pain of broken relationships.
Sadly, the "medicine" was not medicine at all. It was snake-oil, and many of the girls suffered terribly after taking it.
Wendy, I agree, but I would like to thank Fern, for her response, it was very kind and loving.
I was raised in an ATI home. I'm now in my late twenties. I just have to say i agree 100% with your comment Fern. Sure, my parents didn't get it all right: They made mistakes, they were too strict at times, they didn't always search the Bible painstakingly. But I do not believe for one minute that I was scarred for life by the training i received at home. I went on after high school to have an amazing college experience. During those years, I slowly began to see the centrality of the Gospel and how it was not just supposed to be a footnote in my life- it WAS my Life. I don't remember ever being so excited about studying God and His Word until those years at College. To this day, I am grateful for the grace God showed to me in leading me to that college. But I am also grateful for my parents and the years of love they poured into me. They taught me in their imperfect way that waiting for God's best was important. And while I have to agree with others who have commented on here about the mixed up thinking behind punishing girls for having a crush, I also have to say that I never felt that from my parents. They did not exactly encourage me to obsess over boys, but they also loved me and never made me feel 2nd class if I was struggling with feelings for a boy.
I guess for me, the main point is this: I do not ignore the fact that fallacies and errors abound in much of the teachings from the Wisdom booklets etc. But I also do not think my childhood or teen years were a hopeless failure. God is in the business of redeeming. I belive he is Sovereign. I'd encourage anyone who is struggling with hurt toward parents/ others about their experiences in ATI to please remember: your life is not over. Find biblical training from other sources. Pursue God with all your heart. He can and will replace error with truth and grace. Don't keep looking back. Look ahead. And look up.
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing your story, Elena!
Elena, you are very fortunate for the excellent experience you had growing up. Consider yourself blessed. :)
Waiting to be persuaded, Tim;
I won't claim that I speak for the author, though I too was taught as she was, and experienced nearly every negative aspect she described so well in her article. But to answer your question point-blank, yes, I DO REJECT THE BASIC CONCEPT OF 'EMOTIONAL PURITY' as it was taught regarding male/female relationships. Specifically, that engaging members of the opposite gender at an emotional level in relationships was a form of 'impurity'. In Titus I am exhorted to 'treat the younger women as sisters, with all purity'. I most certainly wouldn't avoid emotional closeness, deep conversation, or even a shoulder to cry on to any of my sisters.
What 'emotional purity' teaching DID accomplish, however, was create an area of false guilt and shame, which easily negated, or overrode the very clear command of Jesus Christ to love our neighbor as ourself. Instead of being like the Samaritan who helped the wounded man, our 'legitimate concern' over possible emotional contamination gave us ample reason to 'pass by the wounded on the other side', leaving the wounded people God allowed to cross our paths lying in the pool of their own emotions, while we 'saw Christ hungry, thirsty, sick, naked, in prison and did nothing'. We justified this, in our own minds as protecting 'our emotional purity'. But He knows better. And I don't want to try to explain my 'but I could have gotten hurt or emotionally tainted' when He looks me in the eye and says 'what you didn't do to the least of these, you didn't do to Me'.
Bear in mind as well that Jesus Himself spoke with a very promiscuous woman, in intimate private conversation, including about her own sexual/relational status and past (the woman at the well). This would have been about the ultimate 'no-no' from our 'emotional purity' point of view. Additionally, in weeping with Mary and Martha at Lazarus tomb, we see a man willing to share emotion with others of the opposite gender, but without any intention of pursuing either sister to marriage. He also allowed several women to express intense emotion on him, physically (washing his feet with their tears).
Sexual purity is certainly something that God commends, but in my experience, both single, and now as a married man, being able and willing to love and connect with others on an emotional level makes for healthier relationships, not only with the woman I married, but will all those around me. My wife respects my healthy friendships, both male and female, and vice versa.
A friend of mine sent me a link to another article on this forum, but my eye was irresistibly drawn to the title of this article. I set out to do everything right in the area of romantic relationships, and with all the best of intentions, and everything ended up going horribly, horribly wrong. I have spent years trying to figure out how after being raised in a good, godly, grace-filled and yet non-licentious home, and then aiming to keep myself emotionally and sexually pure, I could end up with far worse damage to myself through relationships than my peers had (Christian and non-Christian alike), who took a relaxed, unplanned approach and just dated like everyone else.
First of all, thank you Darcy for being willing to be vulnerable by putting your emotions and thought processes out there for all of us to see. Your courage has enabled the rest of us to hold our beliefs up to the light of truth to see if we are living out of truth, or some skewed version of things.
By way of background, I attended only one Bill Gothard seminar (IBLP, I guess. It was a youth thing.) I had a friend who was embracing courtship at the time, and I was very interested. I didn't get to attend the Saturday seminar, but on Friday night I picked up an article by Mr. Gothard on Courtship. The Biblical examples given were as follows: representing dating were David and Bathsheba. Dating? Ha! Outright lust, followed by an affair and a murder. We don't know whether Bathsheba married David because she wanted to, because she was now a widow, or because she liked him. We do know the whole thing started with lust and in the absence of any other "relationship." Representing courtship in the article were Isaac and Rebekah. (Jacob and Rachel might have been a better pick, but they didn't really have a happy ending, and thus wouldn't have made a very compelling case. It was still probably closer to a betrothal, anyway.) Isaac and Rebekah was not a courtship at all, but clearly a case of betrothal BY MEANS OF A THIRD PARTY! Even Abraham had not met Rebekah, let alone Isaac, until she was brought home to meet her husband. Was this a godly pairing? Of course! By all means! But it was not courtship.
I threw out that article, but subsequently went on to read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and went to an Eric and Leslie Ludy seminar. I was greatly affected by Joshua Harris' previously mentioned book, and had my dad read it. He was uncomfortable deciding my future for me without having enough to go on, but apparently he decided I "wasn't dating" during high school, since I felt like I should be more deliberate about relationships. By the end of high school, I had long liked my best male friend, and my parents decided they liked him, too. They gave me the go-ahead. We basically were courting, as we were in agreement to date/court with the purpose of marrying.
Somehow I had this idea in my head, though, and I'd love to have someone tell me were it came from, that even in a dating/courting relationship, I was to treat my boyfriend as the head of the relationship, in the same way that a husband is to be respected and is the spiritual leader in the relationship. That majorly backfired.
The other part that backfired was the idea from all of the above sources, (and unfortunately backed up by my father, who made a mistake on this piece of advice) that it is up to the girl to keep things "right" in the purity arena. My dad's words were that the female is "the keeper of the relationship." I believe the reasoning had to do with things like raging hormones and poor impulse control, in which areas he believed girls to have more self control. The standard lines from other Christian sources point us toward things like "modesty" and even crazy measures like the misled young woman above wrote about where she was taught to "squint" at men "so they wouldn't get the wrong idea!" (I'm so sorry they wronged you by teaching you such nonsense. I don't, however, blame you for listening at an impressionable age.) "Not encouraging men" in the "wrong ways" is a common theme in many Christian circles and books. The trouble is that this kind of thinking often leads young women to feel solely responsible for the men around them acting properly and not lusting. While the initial intentions may have been good, the resulting thinking is an outright lie with serious consequences. Until we recognize and root out the lies we believe, though, we cannot replace them with the truth of God's Word. "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust" (James 1:14). "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; {that is,} that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God" (I Thess 4:3-5 ff). Am I responsible before the Lord not to be showing off parts of my body He does not want me showing off? Yes. Am I responsible for any man not lusting? No. I am not. Each man I see or speak with is responsible before the Lord for his own thoughts and actions. That is the truth.
I wish I had fully realized this when I was 18. Perhaps when my boyfriend started pushing me to do inappropriate things I would not have gotten sucked into the harmful cycle of resisting, failing, joining in, confessing, explaining why I didn't want to do that again, and then within a few days, things ending up just as bad or worse. Perhaps if I had recognized that I was not the sole "keeper of the relationship," I could have held my boyfriend responsible to respect me. I was caught in a cycle of shame, and I did not know how to get out. Admittedly, my best course of action would have been a full confession to my folks, but I was too stuck to see the wisdom in that, and felt responsible for keeping my boyfriend's guilty secrets from coming to light as well.
This next part I will include only because I have unfortunately found that my experience has become common enough to be called a "phenomenon." This phenomenon is called "technical virginity" and occurs when someone like my boyfriend chooses to not have sex until his wedding day, but fails to define "sex" in the same way as the rest of the world, and instead chooses a very narrow definition that then leaves a whole host of options freely available. If I had held my boyfriend responsible to respect me, I would not have been around to see this phenomenon, as I wanted to remain pure in every way for my spouse. However, that was not how my story went.
There are good reasons for setting out toward the idea of "emotional purity." However, I agree with Darcy on every point she made about the effects it can create in a person's life. There may be ways to mitigate those effects and keep the overall goal; I'm not sure. I think shame is a major part of the issue. Shame leaves us in wrong relationship to Christ, and everything goes downhill from there in various ways. I remember one image I got from somewhere was to picture God with me on every date, seeing what I was doing at all times. While that is an accurate picture of things, I must tell you that it in no way proved helpful.
After I had sorted through most other aspects of the damage resulting from my relationships, I was still left with this lingering issue of shame. It was tearing me up. I was finally able to ask the question in my heart one day this way, "I know Christ paid for all of my sins at the time I was saved, but what about all of the things I've done since, when I knew better? What can be done for those?" God took me over the next week or so to Hebrews 10:11-14. "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Did you catch that? One offering, for all time, and Christ was done. His sacrifice was so sufficient, He sat down. There can be no further sacrifice for sin, it is true, but the key is that there NEED be no further sacrifice, for Christ is enough. Perhaps this passage will help one of you, as well.
I know, I write a lot, but it's been a long journey for me, and I don't want to skimp out on something that might connect for someone. Please bear with me for just another thought or two.
I agree with Darcy that Josh Harris' picture of giving away pieces of one's heart did more harm than help for me, and appreciate her pointing us toward practicing our ability to love. I would like to say, however, that when it comes to those of us who have had *physical, sexual* (no, I do not mean hand-holding) experiences with another person or persons, it can be helpful to confess those activities as sin to the Lord and ask that He remove all ties between ourselves and everyone who is not our spouse. The Bible does say that "two become one flesh," and I think more happens in sexual experiences than some give credit for. However, like all other sins, God "is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I Jn 1:9), and even promises that in Him we can have "life, and that abundantly."
One last issue I would like to address is Bill Gothard's encouragement to make vows to the Lord. While it might be said to be Scripturally possible to make and keep a vow to the Lord and have that be okay, we are human, and are not good at keeping vows. I think that Scripture discourages us from making vows, and for that very reason. A vow is a serious matter, and in our fallen nature, we are not reliable enough to either be wise in which vow we make (case in point, man vows to the Lord whatever walks out the door of his house, and it ends up being his daughter), or in our faultless repayment or keeping of the vow. A simple change in wording can be a good start, though. ("Father, please help me to _____" or "I commit to try to ______", for instance.) I was prompted by the Bill Gothard video conference to promise the Lord that I would read the Bible for 5 minutes every day. That sounds harmless, does it not? 5 Minutes is not very long! Some years later, though, a man from my church confessed to the body that he had made this same vow, and it was eating away at him. Each minute he had not read Scripture over the last many years haunted him. I thought about this, and recognized in myself that my reading of Scripture was tainted by this vow. When I did not read, I was plagued by heavy guilt. When I did read, I was not able to do so in freedom. I was bound by some stupid statement I had made at age 14 or 16. I confessed the vow to God as something I never should have done, and asked the Lord to release me of it. I was scared of the word "promise" for years, though. If anyone else is plagued by this issue, let me direct you to Numbers 30, which is a law that recognized that although vows were serious, and not to be taken lightly, there were situations where a person could be released from a rash or unwise vow, partly for the sake of the effect it would have on the rest of one's family. We are not bound by the Law, but in this case, I felt that the Law showed me that my concern about unwise vows was a valid one.
Thank you to Darcy and to all who have added your voices to this discussion. PS, my next chapter has been a happy one. I am incredibly grateful to the Lord for my husband, who treated me with kindness and patience as I sorted through relationship and purity issues, and who respected my need to save kissing for our wedding day (and engagement day, for his sake), and who took me to himself as his pure and virgin bride, even with all my messy past. His grace and sacrificial love have taught me much about God's view of me as pure and set apart to Him.
Using wisdom is a good thing, but when it is time to love, love deeply. By the way, my husband's approach to relationships was to ask *God* to guard His heart where it needed guarding, and that if a particular relationship he was interested in was not the Lord's will, for God to please mess it up. God was always faithful to carry out that request, except with me. He and I just had to keep praying and seeking wisdom, and had to keep our hearts open to one another until we knew we were good for each other.
Sarah, thank you for sharing your story. Despite the lack of formatting, as you pointed out :), I read through the whole thing because it was so well written. Great points and poignant honesty. Thank you for pointing out how women are responsible before the Lord for being modest, but they are NOT responsible for a man's lustful thoughts.
Oh, Sarah, I could just hug you right now. You have perfectly expressed what happened to me as well, and reading over what happened to you helped me, for the first time, to let go of my death-grip on the guilt of a painful "courtship" history. I, too, believed that a family-approved courtship was THE WAY to go, and that keeping things pure physically was my sole responsibility. (Now that I actually am married, I see how very destructive the very idea can be to the foundations of a happy marriage--namely, wives are told to RESPECT their husbands, but what woman in the world could respect a man whom she believes to be merely a slave to his lust? How could she trust him, either, when he goes to work with the cute secretary while she's hugely pregnant? And if she's the "leader" in the moral department, how is she supposed to submit to him??? It's a VERY backwards idea!!!) I, too, was in a "courtship," with all the little boxes checked off. Parent's approval? Check. Pastor's approval? Check. Personal feelings? Unimportant. I had a nagging sense that something was wrong, but didn't want to go against the system; and when he bugged me for physical things, it never occurred to me that this was a sign of what a weak and foolish man he was--my failures to "stomp the brakes" were ONLY MY responsibility. He, too, ascribed to the school of technical virginity--and before I finally broke things off, I racked up quite the list of things that I wished I could un-do. Only God spared me from having pushed the envelope even farther. I never could figure out where exactly I went wrong--if everyone approved of it, why didn't it work out? And I hated myself for having been too weak to say no, since it was only up to me. Had I been taught that the man SHARES in the responsibility, I think I would have gotten mad at him for pressuring me instead of just thinking, "Well of course he's going to do this. This is what men do," and excusing the behavior as something he couldn't help. A little anger at being so thoroughly disrespected might have gone a long way towards keeping me a little more pure. Thankfully, my husband is a very forgiving man, with a few things he's not proud of himself. But Sarah, you are SO right. SO RIGHT!
AJ, The disappearing act of our formatting is very frustrating, isn't it?
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While I wholeheartedly agree that following a formula for anything--whether it be child-rearing, romance, religion, etc.--is dangerous and unbiblical, I do have a few issues with this article.
1. The Bible tells us to guard our hearts. The third paragraph of this article says that popular homeschool leaders have defined emotional purity as "guarding our hearts." Well, they may mean something other than what the Bible means when they get into the nuts and bolts of that definition, but I think it is important to point out that it is God Himself and not homeschool leaders that tells us to guard our hearts.
"Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life." (Proverbs 4:23)
2. God also tells us to be careful when it comes to romance.
"Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires." (Song of Solomon 2:7, 3:5, 8:4)
3. God also tells us to take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ and to keep ourselves pure.
"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." (2 Corinthians 10:5)
And there is a ton of Scripture on keeping ourselves pure, including the command to have not "even a hint" of sexual immorality (Eph. 5:23).
"How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word." (Psalm 119:9)
"Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false." (Psalm 24:3-4)
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." (Matthew 5:8)
"Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure." (1 Timothy 5:2)
Yet the author of the article seems to imply that the biblical teaching of keeping our thoughts and emotions pure is actually dangerous and damaging when she says, "But the idea that I can defraud just by a look, that I could become emotionally impure just by a thought, that I might become damaged goods with pieces of my heart strewn all over creation, and that guys 'have only one thing on their minds' and we need to help them control themselves, has truly negatively affected what should be normal interactions with my friends."
I think the real problem is the idea of trying to follow a formula rather than having a personal relationship with God. God tells us to guard our hearts, tells us to remain pure, tells us to keep even our thoughts pure, and we know this task is impossible. Our hearts are evil, there's no use in denying it! We can become impure with just a thought! But when we fail, we can simply turn to our Savior who is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption (1 Corinthians 1:30).
The answer to this problem is not found in man's rules or formulas. Neither is it found by denying God's standard of guarding our hearts and being emotionally pure. Instead, the answer is in having a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and allowing His Spirit and His Word to guide and rule our lives. "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." (Gal. 5:16)
The problem with ATI and the like is when they take principles of Scripture which are true and apply them to your life for you in very specific, set ways. There is no one right way to apply these Scriptures. Allow God, His Spirit, and His Church to help you apply Scripture in the unique way God has for your life. God wants to apply Scripture to your life in relationship with Him--that's why He doesn't want us following formulas. When we follow formulas, we don't have to spend any time with Him seeking His face and reading His Word and talking to Him. We just follow the pre-set rules and miss out on the true joy of the Christian life: God Himself.
One of the best books out there for learning to undo the trap of legalism, formula and ritual and instead walk in grace is a book called "Walking in Victory" by Dennis McCallum. I highly recommend it.
1. This verse us about guarding the seat of understanding and the place where the sayings if the father are kept (see preceding verse). It is not the heart in the sense of the seat of emotions or romantic feelings. The command is given so that the son may avoid the path of evil. To make it about avoiding emotional entanglements is ripping it out of context.
2. First of all, many translations render these verses to clearly refer to a person (ie do not waken my love till he pleases). Secondly to take a particular rendering of a passage from a poem filled metaphor and allusions of various kinds and then read that verse literally in order to derive a specific principle is a highly questionable hermeneutic. Take the verse in it's larger context and making it to be a command to avoid emotional entanglements is highly unreasonable.
3. Your reasoning here depends on the fallacy of begging the question: How do we know emotional entanglement is wrong? Because of all these Scriptures which speak of being pure of heart? But how do we know in the first place that emotional entanglement reflects an impure heart? We don't - you have to first assume that emotional entanglement is wrong before you can use these verses to show that it's wrong, begging the question of why you make that assumption in the first place. So yes, those are all good verses but what do they have to do with emotional entanglement in the first place?
David, you take heart out of context. Yes, Proverbs is talking about the words and sayings of the father, but in the Hebrew culture, the heart is very clearly the seat of emotion. If our hearts do not embrace evil, it is much easier not to act evily. Life comes from the heart, in that a person follows their heart. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be. Evil can appear very attractive, and it is against such attraction that watchfulness must be had.
Thank you! I appreciate your references to scripture. I am raising 3 teenagers right now. This is most certainly a heavy subject. I know that as a teenager I gave my heart away too readily to boys who were willing to snatch it up. Time and again I'd end up breaking up because ultimately they wanted sexual favors. Those relationships were damaging, but I wasn't guarding my heart. There is most certainly a balance. I personally see the wisdom in going out with groups of people as friends. But I also see the danger in not allowing any interest unless you think that person might be the one you marry. That's a lot of pressure! But I agree, this is more about hearing God's wisdom. Each situation is going to be different. But I do see and have experienced the wisdom in having boundaries (not alone with the opposite sex) even while married. We still have mutual friends, but we keep common sense boundaries, because I believe we can be tempted in any moment. We would be foolish to dismiss the fact that we have an enemy waiting for a moment to use our sin nature against us.
I understand what you are saying, however when the author said:
"But the idea that I can defraud just by a look, that I could become emotionally impure just by a thought..."
I assumed that 'look' meant she looked at someone who caught her eye as an attractive person. This in itself is not sinful. The thought would have been, 'What a handsome guy! I wonder if he's single, I wonder what he's like, I hope he's a Christian, I think I'd like to get to know him, find out who he is' etc.. Those are not sinful or impure thoughts, and I think it would be wrong to tell someone that that type of thinking is wrong, especially for a man/woman who is of age, and is preparing for marriage, and praying for the right one to come along..
I appreciate your points and think that you pointed out the real issue. Create a blank and put any teachers/authors name in it and the heart of the issue is following a formula or a man. I too was raised on Joshua Harris and Bill Gothard's teachings, but we did not follow them as the gospel. I studied the scripture for myself to see what God had for me. As Christians, we are not called to follow man, but Jesus Christ and should strive to honor him with our lives. The bible has much to show us about our conduct with the opposite sex and relationships. Don't blindly follow a man/teacher - search out the scriptures and seek God's will for you life!
Good points...
Overall, in the area of formulas, IBLP has helped me in my life and I would still recommend Bill's teachings to others. I'm sure that IBLP has helped many more than hurt; and many who have been hurt may have just needed a place to vent due to their own failures or the failure of their churches or parents to help them to understand how to live their lives by God's grace, and not through legalistic means; and how to confess our sins or failures (shame) to God when we fail to keep vows or fall into sin. Shame and guilt are positive things, just like pain is to the body, shame and guilt are the soul's way to warn us from spiritual and emotional dangers. I realize that if formulas (principles) are taught legalistically, this is bad and if taught to the young and impressionable, it can be difficult to undo, but again they are principles to guide us by God's grace, and Bill Gothard's teachings should be seen as helpful guides to practical Christian living. If he taught them to be strictly adhered to with no wavering, then I suppose that's wrong, but I never viewed them that way.
Missionary to Lithuania, and Father of 10.
Douglet846, I am glad you were not hurt by IBLP. Keep reading and you may find that you perhaps will not be able to continue to recommend IBLP. There are some very heartbreaking stories on this site. I am an ex-ATI dad, second year (1985.) My testimony is very different than yours. I was deeply hurt by IBLP and ATI and BG. Father of 5. One in prison. Ex-wife remarried.
Ah, BG and the Gothardites have hurt more than helped--------with legalistic pride instilled in them, they simply don,t realize how hurt they are------ and how many people they have hurt.
"Our hearts are evil, there's no use in denying it! "
I deny it. My heart isn't wicked or evil. It's washed, sanctified, made pure and clean and is now the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. He's given me a new heart, one that is "circumcised" of evil and made holy and blameless in His sight. I am a new creation, the old has passed away, and that includes my heart. If my heart were still wicked and evil, then Jesus' sacrifice is weak and incompetent...redemption is worthless.
YES!!!! Thank you, Darcy! My heart is no longer wicked, it has been re-made! God is sanctifying me and my new heart from the evil of so many lies that I have believed.
Your heart isnt circumcised. That is a promise that was not even written to you. It is written for Jews who will live on the earth following the tribulation. You claiming that promise would be like me claiming that I will have children in number like the stars in the sky or the sand on the shore (a promise given to Abram). You need to "rightly divide your Bible." Your heart is wicked. You have a corrupt body. The Holy Spirit dwells in you, but your sinful flesh hasn't been changed. That's why Paul said "the things that I wouldnt do, I do, and the things that I would do, I dont do" (obviously I paraphrased).
Always use scripture. Your opinion is meaningless without it. Also, make sure you know the context, and who the passage is speaking to. Otherwise, again, your opinion is meaningless.
1. All who are "in Christ" are the true Israel.
"Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 9:6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed...24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
2. The true Jew is known by the fact that his heart is circumcised.
Rom 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
3. Therefore we can conclude from Scripture that the believer has a circumcised heart. This is confirmed when we contrast the verse you paraphrase and its surrounding context (Rom 7:9-22) with Rom 3:10-18 where Paul describes the natural condition of man. So, in Rom 3 man naturally hates good, seeks evil and has no fear of God, but in Rom 7 Paul (a believer) wants to do good and delights in the law of God (yet can't on his own power). What better way to describe this contrast except in terms of a circumcised heart (ie. how its defined in Rom 2:29).
The body is corrupt but the heart is circumcised. The flesh may be bent toward evil such that one cannot do the good they desire on their own power (thank God for His grace and the indwelling of the HS - we DON'T have to try and do good on our own power), but the inward man of the believer now wishes to do good and finds delight in God's law.
So, while you may disagree with my interpretation for whatever reason, there is clearly good and solid reasons in Scripture to hold that believers have a circumcised heart.
Oh man, can't believe I neglected this verse
Col 2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ
In the OT, the source for the concept of circumcision, there are only two types mentioned - that of the flesh and that of the heart. The circumcision of Christ is said not to be of the flesh, thus, the OT scholar would readily conclude that this must be a reference to the circumcision of the heart. Sure ties in well with Rom 2:29 as well.
Scripture First, Opinions Second, I think you should take your own advice.. lol!
We are made new in Christ and given new hearts! Praise God! But perfect redemption has not yet come. God has seen fit to allow the flesh to live alongside the Spirit while we are still on this earth. He has redeemed us from the power of sin but not yet its presence. His promise to remove sin completely from us is a promise that will be realized in eternity.
I'm trying to say what Paul says in Romans 7:18-23:
"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."
My fleshly heart is evil, and I need Jesus Christ and his righteousness just as much this minute as I needed him at the point of salvation. I am just as incapable of being righteous without Jesus Christ right now as I was before I was saved.
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness." (Colossians 2:6-7)
I still disagree. I think that Rom. 7 was Paul before Jesus, before redemption. We are no longer "prisoners of the law of sin" according to Rom. 6.
And I never said we are perfect and never sin. I only said our hearts are not evil or wicked any longer. Big difference.
"Paul before Jesus"??? Are you serious? That magnitude of the ignorance of the statement astounds me. Your incredible lack of Biblical understanding truly scares me. The fact that you are given such an influential position by the site is very scary.
Scripture, would you care to clarify why you interpret the passage differently, vs attacking? Your comment is scary.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Matthew 23:26
Oh pompous one, why don't you open your eyes and see what she's trying to say? Perhaps you didn't understand the way she worded it. She's saying that Paul was describing who he was before Jesus saved him, as an accurate description of mankind before salvation anyway. And you talk as if you are the only one who truly understands Scripture, you aren't BG himself are you?
What you have just said raises a very serious question. If our fleshly hearts are not evil or wicked, why do Christians still sin? Where does that sin come from? Isn't sin the very definition of what is evil and wicked?
There are many reasons why I think Romans 7 is Paul as a believer. I won't go over all of that here except to recommend that you read "Walking in Victory" by Dennis McCallum. It is an excellent exposition on Romans 5 - 8 and a powerful description of just what you are talking about, no longer being prisoners to sin.
We are no longer prisoners to sin, meaning we now have the power of the Holy Spirit to resist sin and choose righteousness. Before salvation, we cannot free ourselves from the power of sin at all. But now as believers, we have the power to choose to sin or to follow God. The reality is that the sinfulness of our flesh is still present, and the freedom God offers is the freedom to resist the flesh and walk in the Spirit.
James chapter 3 addresses believers (he calls his readers "my brothers" throughout the book) and calls our tongues "a world of evil among the parts of the body" and "set on fire by hell." He also cautions believers not to "harbor bitter envy or selfish ambition in your hearts" and says that such things are "earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice."
James 4 says that the fights and quarrels that were happening amongst the believers he was addressing came from "the desires that battle within you." Where do these desires come from? How come believers still have fights, quarrels, bitterness, and anger? Why is the New Testament filled with admonitions to believers to rid themselves of these practices and to walk in the Spirit?
The Bible addresses believers in this fashion because there is a battle going on in our hearts, a battle between the flesh and the Spirit. And I love how James encourages believers, also in chapter 4:
"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.'"
Praise God! He gives us all the grace we need when we humble ourselves and come to him for his power to defeat the sin of our flesh.
I'm pretty sure I've read more theology books in the last 10 years than most people read in a lifetime. I am quite familiar with all the different viewpoints on just about every aspect of theology. I also am very familiar with scripture and can quote as many verses as you just did to support my beliefs. But this is not a place for debate, so I won't keep this conversation up. We will have to agree to disagree. I have very different views than most mainstream evangelicals, and don't feel like this is the place to write a theological dissertation on the dual natures of man.
I also think you missed the point of what I was trying to share in this article, and made the mistake of projecting a false dichotomy onto my beliefs. I would encourage you to read the latest article posted here under my name, to get a better picture of what I am trying to say. Thank you.
Thanks for the reality check, Darcy!
Darcy, thank you so much for saying and confirming what I have watched from the sidelines and witnessed in the over of so many. As a college student and thrush youth pastor during the time in which I Kissed Dating Goodbye was the rage in Christian circles I have seen the damage it has caused to those who have taken the principles to heart and the incredible hurt that can come as the result of people swinging so far and so hard in response to the careless sexuality and "cheap/fake love" that pervades much of popular culture. But never have I seen someone who has come out on he far side of it give such a well articulated expression of the damage that it can do to both mind and spirit to supress such a huge part of who God has made us to be. Thank you, I hope people find strength and wisdom in your valuable insight.
Point #4...... yep, that's me. I followed the courtship process and ended up marrying an emotionally abusive super-controlling molester. I was married to him for 11.5 years before I had the courage to get out. We're separated now, and I plan to file for divorce 47 weeks from tomorrow, which will be 1 year & 1 day of being separated. (But who's counting?!)
Elizabeth, I am so sorry for the abuse and pain you have suffered as a child and an adult. You have REMARKABLE courage to choose to escape the abuse and pursue healing and freedom.
In ATI, I felt that Mr. Gothard's opinions on certain subjects were just that. Courtship has been there long before Mr. Gothard has talked about it. I didn't continue in ATI as I grew older because I believed it wasn't good for me. However, I did go to certain programs
that were affiliated with it as life continued. I know it was from God to help me grow closer to Him. I did have a fear of guys for a long time, but it never had anything to do with Mr. Gothard's teachings. I didn't believe a lot of the things he preached about courtship and dating, but I don't condemn courtship itself. I believe it has a good role in a lot of people's lives. I didn't go the route of courtship because I didn't think it was for me. It has worked for a lot of people I know who are happily married.
I do agree with Professor Liz Meyer, your post seems a bit strong (and slightly bitter). I don't think courtship is evil or that it can make you feel shame ashamed of talking to others. Mr. Gothard can say all he wants on whatever subject but in the end it's the people who are hearing it who decide what to do with it.
"Mr. Gothard can say all he wants on whatever subject but in the end it's the people who are hearing it who decide what to do with it."
Val, the problem is, Mr. G says it's GOD doin' the sayin,' if you get my meanin'.
That has consequences, especially in the developing mind, emotions and self-consciousness of a teenager. All the more when that teenager is told by 'their God- Given and Infallible Authorities that "THIS (and this alone) is GOD's WILL for you!"
That's what we're speaking out against. =)
Cheers!
This may be the reason for the website and your purpose for writing here, it may even be the original intent of the writer of this article, but as I read it and take a step back, I see that instead she writes with her emotions rather than with striving for the purpose.
I see nothing wrong with emotions. A well-rounded post will include emotions and logic and reason. I also see nothing wrong with bitterness or strong anger.
Especially when we've been hurt so deeply! We were taught that our feelings can't be trusted because they will lead us into sin. It's been incredibly liberating to learn that feeling my feelings is part of how I honor who I'm created to be. And reflect the image of a God who feels just as deeply.
Exactly. They shame us for 'bitterness' and ignore the fact that something horrible was done to us that caused the bitterness in the first place.. tell me, which is the greater sin? (yeah, yeah, I know, all sins are equal.. I'm just making a point..) That being said, I don't necessarily condone bitterness, I think it needs to be understood, worked through, and let God transform it to healing and forgiveness.. It's a process.
"Writes with her emotions." I suppose God wasn't writing with His emotions when He said, "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God...." JEALOUSY!!!! SIN!!!!! We were created in the image of God. We have emotions because He has emotions. Emotions on their own are NOT sin.
Precisely, Will! It was nothing less than brain-washing, actually.
It's no wonder we don't practice greeting one another with a holy kiss. A lady I once dated a couple of times greeted me at church with a holy kiss (right on the lips, which is the correct way IMO) with her husband right behind her. It freaked me out at the time and the next time I saw her she said she wouldn't kiss me again. I now find it awkward to get the courage to tell her I figured out what the kiss meant. I did tell my wife about it though. Personally I wouldn't try it with anyone, too afraid of the consequences and the reactions of the holier than thou folks in the church.
Scriptural interpretation the Gothard way - method #9:
Passages are interpreted as literal or figurative based on such a rendering will support your position. So, since courtship is a truth not to be questioned, "it is good for a man not to touch a woman" is to be literally translated - indeed, it is to be taken as a commandment. "Greet one another with a holy kiss" on the other hand is obviously figurative.
so very true. the fine art of proof-texting.
The reason for me writing this isn’t to be argumentative or because I want to be nitpicking. Being a past ATI child and coming out of it, I feel it’s important to help others that are the same. It seems as I read this that the one writing it has a sort of anger towards ATI. That isn’t healthy or helpful. Anger damages the one who has it the most and it affects those who read about it. Also, this article wouldn’t be helpful to someone that is struggling with whether or not they should be staying in ATI or leaving it because it makes the writer sound partial. The lack of scriptures, used to support the writer’s thoughts, makes it less credible. When taking a stand as a Christian, the Bible must always back the view. I hope that the things I point out here are helpful to some.
>>
Quote: “You are considered damaged goods if you have fallen in love and had your heart broken. It was Josh Harris in I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the Ludy’s in several of their books that popularized the idea that every time you fall in love or get “emotionally attached” to someone, you give away a piece of your heart. The more pieces you give away, the less of your heart you have to give to your spouse someday. Harris even went so far as to say that each of those former flames actually have some sort of hold on you.”
- Courtship can mean a lot of different things to different people. Some people view courtship vs dating as in not having sexual intercourse vs having it. I don’t believe you give a piece of your heart away, necessarily. But, if you are intimately involved with another person, there is a strong attachment and that does have a strong hold on both of you.
1 Corinthians 6:18 says, “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.”
Quote: “I am still uncomfortable hugging one of my best friends who is a guy because we were taught never to hug or have physical contact, even innocent, with a guy.”
- If that man isn’t your husband I don’t honestly know why he’s your best friend. Isn’t your husband to be that? Being a best friend means that you hang out with them, share secrets, talk about practically everything, etc. I just can’t see how you can have that and balance that with your husband being your best friend too.
Quote: “I told her if she was to walk out of the room, leaving me and her husband in the same room, my first reaction would be one of panic. ”This might look bad. . . . What if he talks to me? . . . What if someone else sees us? . . . What is he thinking?” My second reaction, close on the heels of the first, would be a coping mechanism that I learned long ago: I calmly tell myself, “This is perfectly normal and innocent. . . . He probably doesn’t even notice me. . . . This is a Godly man whom I know and trust. . . . The only person who would ever freak out about this is me. . . . To the rest of the world, there’s nothing wrong here.” I then calm down, act normal, and hope nobody noticed my crazy internal battle.”
- I wouldn’t stay if the wife left unless I knew she was about to return; I would go with her. It doesn’t look well and you always want to make sure that you don’t have the outlook of “evil”. You never know if she may have some insecurities about her relationship with her husband and, even though it may seem innocent to you, it wouldn’t seem so to her. He may be a godly man but you do not know the things he has done in the past and how that has given his wife insecurities. This would be a case of looking out for the weaker brother/sister situation 1 Corinthians talks about.
1 Corinthians 8:9 says, “But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.” I have a friend who struggles with fears almost anytime her husband talks with other women without her being right there. Most people would have no clue.
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 says, “All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.”
Although we shouldn’t be making decisions out of fear, we should be making them out of love for one another and not hindering their testimony, or ours. We should be analyzing the situation to see if it’s glorifying to God or not.
She must live in a sheltered world if she thinks women, that have led a completely worldly life void of religion and with no ATI background, wouldn’t have the same thoughts as her in this situation. They may not be thinking it for the same reason, but they do. Maybe it could be from the fear of gossip, which is alive and well in humanity. On a side note, I find it interesting that in the Bible when it gives lists of sins like in Romans 1:29, gossip is listed among the sins.
We are trying not to sin but to live righteously because we love God. The Bible is clear that how we love God and others is to obey Him and take care of others in relation to Him. For examples, read John 14:15, 21:15-17 and 1 John 5:2-3.
Quote: “But the idea that I can defraud just by a look, that I could become emotionally impure just by a thought, that I might become damaged goods with pieces of my heart strewn all over creation, and that guys “have only one thing on their minds” and we need to help them control themselves, has truly negatively affected what should be normal interactions with my friends.”
- Actually, yes you can become emotionally impure by an impure thought. Guys are not machines with just one thing on their mind; they are human beings just as women are. Women think about that stuff just as much as guys do (maybe not all women, but most, yes). We need to control our actions so that we don’t cause them to stumble just as much as they need to control their actions so that we don’t stumble.
The Bible says that we can become corrupted just by a thought. Matthew 5:28 – “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” The problem with the thinking that we’ll become damaged goods is that we could ever have been undamaged goods. Romans 3:10 says, as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;” We can’t be self righteous about staying bodily pure if we realizes that we never could truly be bodily pure in this life.
Quote: “Guess what? In the real world, men and women can have innocent relationships. They can talk to each other without there being ulterior motives. They can laugh and exchange wits and, yes, even drive in a car together without anybody thinking anything dubious is happening.”
- I do think men and women can have innocent relationships but not close innocent relationships and not relationships where they never think a wrong thought about each other. In the “real world” some women can’t have an innocent relationship with another woman, or man with another man. That’s the evil world we live in. The real world is children are having babies at the age of 14 yrs old.
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form [appearance] of evil.”
Quote: “Following God involves risk. He is not a “safe” God. But He is good.”
- God is quite safe. He has promised to take care of us and guide us. The only reason He wouldn’t be towards someone is if they weren’t saved.
It’s possible the writer’s problem will never go away if she continues with her “coping” mechanisms. If it’s from God, and she’s rejecting His warnings, she could be headed for a fall.
Thanks for sharing. I disagree on many points to some degree or other, but more important to me is that I appreciate seeing disagreement stated in such a manner.
Quote: “Following God involves risk. He is not a “safe” God. But He is good.”
- God is quite safe. He has promised to take care of us and guide us. The only reason He wouldn’t be towards someone is if they weren’t saved.
* * * * * * * *
God does protect, guide, provide for, etc. He can be our "safe place." But the Christian life - or life in general - is hardly "safe." Having a relationship with God can give us confidence and reassurance in His goodness. But it does not protect us against hurt, pain, disappointment, or any other emotion mankind was created with the capacity to experience.
Your own life or experiences may all seem safe to you. That's wonderful. Count your blessings. But not everyone - Christian or not - has had that luxury. Death, sickness, hurt, hardship can come to anyone at any time. "He makes the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mt. 5:45).
Also, refer to the book of Psalms. Many of David's experiences were far from "safe." While he usually came around to realizing God's omnipotentence and sovereignty, he experienced and expressed a vast array of emotions that indicated fear, uncertainty, anger . . . kind of the opposite of safe and secure. Of course his feelings don't change who God is, but his perceptions while walking through those troubled times were very real to him. . . . As other people's troubled times are very real to them.
Just to address a few points...
"It seems as I read this that the one writing it has a sort of anger towards ATI. That isn’t healthy or helpful. Anger damages the one who has it the most and it affects those who read about it."
Isn't this an assumption on your part, and a matter of you reading some unsubstantiated armchair psychology (which differs significantly from the educated opinion of the medical/psychology field) and personal preference into the equation? How were you affected, for instance, when you read of Jesus becoming so angry he flipped tables and chased people out of the Temple? Did it damage Christ? Was what happened there unhealthy and unhelpful? Or how about Matthew 23? Frauds, vipors, hypocrites, snakes, fools, depending on translation.
"Also, this article wouldn’t be helpful to someone that is struggling with whether or not they should be staying in ATI or leaving it because it makes the writer sound partial."
I can tell you, without equivocation, that your assumption here is completely wrong. MORE than completely wrong if such a thing were possible.
"The lack of scriptures, used to support the writer’s thoughts, makes it less credible. When taking a stand as a Christian, the Bible must always back the view."
I'd make sure the Holy Spirit was backing my view. It's what was promised to lead us, as believers, into all truth.
"I wouldn’t stay if the wife left unless I knew she was about to return; I would go with her. It doesn’t look well and you always want to make sure that you don’t have the outlook of “evil”."
Why would you worry about the external perception of evil? That's part of the bondage of legalistic teachings about "purity", and it's weight I wouldn't carry if I were you. The bible doesn't worry about it AT ALL, with the exception of the KJV, which seriously mistranslated a verse from the Greek and left people wringing their hands over appearances/perceptions of evil. As a friend once said, "Evil has to actually make an appearance before there can be an appearance of evil."
"God is quite safe. He has promised to take care of us and guide us. The only reason He wouldn’t be towards someone is if they weren’t saved."
Wouldn't this prove to be a very superficial application of biblical passages? Isn't one thing the books of the bible seem to promise, over and over, is that life in this world is hardship and trouble after hardship and trouble?...and that our true hope is in our eternity because of Christ? God isn't a "get out of life free" card.
If I were you, I'd be encouraged that someone like Darcy is looking beyond the surface of the issues, trying to make a positive impact in the confusion of the here and now rather than adding to it.
Excellent comment. Finally someone on this site is using Scripture as the sole authority, not their feelings or opinions.
Thank you Val
nice.. once again women are blamed for what they have no control over. As if I'm going to follow a woman out of the room every time she has to use the bathroom, just so I won't look evil for being in the living room or dining room, thus making my other guest, (her husband) extremely uncomfortable, wondering what he's said or done to offend me so much that I can't stand to be alone with him, etc.. or take it upon myself to pompously explain that the two of us being alone for two minutes, finishing dinner looks appallingly evil, thus shaming or offending him, when I was the one who invited them over in the first place... Ok, I'm getting dizzy.. The only people who even think such thoughts to begin with, are usually the nasty kind who judge every move you make anyway, and I could care less what they think of me, if they don't care enough about me to give me the benefit of the doubt.
I have a few thoughts, in no particular order. This is not a forum for debate, though dissenting comments are welcome. But i feel the need to clarify a few things
1. I think anger is natural, normal, healthy and part of working through wrong-doing in one's past, whether that wrong-doing was one's fault or not. I see no indication in scripture that anger is a wrong response or damaging to anyone. Have you read any Bible stories lately? There's a lot of anger going on in them. So I have no problem with being angry for damaging teachings that happened to so many people, and the pain it is still causing. However, Gothard teaches differently. It sounds like you are basing your teachings on Gothard's and not scripture.
2. I would encourage you to read this post, if you think my experience and descriptions of the meaning of courtship is off: http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
3. I am not "taking a stand as a Christian". I am taking a stand as a human being. I do not treat the Bible as my "go-to" book for every single little answer and proof of every single decision I make. I don't believe that's what the Bible is meant for. SO I feel no need to have book/chapter/verse to back up my experiences or opinions, other than basic principles of Love God, Love your neighbor. Plus, I don't think the Bible tells how to get a spouse, which is the right way and which is the wrong way. Instead, we are told through the many "one another" verses how to treat fellow human beings. I feel no need to spout scriptures to prove I'm right.
4. I believe it's fine to have good friends of the opposite sex. The one in question is also my husband's best friend. We all grew up together. This is normal, unless you still follow Gothard and believe his teachings (which is seems you do quite a bit from your comments).
5. I am not sheltered. I consider myself a liberal Christian. I know the world, the way people think. I know what's considered "normal" in our culture. And I know that people who have never heard of "courtship" or emotional purity haven't a clue what I'm talking about. That comforts me.
6. I am a very happy woman, with wonderful friends and relationships. I am well-adjusted and have helped many people find healing through writing what everyone is thinking but afraid to say. I speak my mind and heart and write exactly what I think. There is no pretense with me, no judging, no spouting Christianese, no fear of ANY emotions, be they anger or happiness. We are beings made after God's image, and that includes deep emotions AND logical reasoning. I know there will be people that disagree, and that's fine. I do not apologize for anything I've said here.
If you've come here to prove who knows more scripture and who's theology is more correct, I'm not interested in that contest. I'm interested in people's hearts. I have half my bible memorized and know what the other half says and where to find it. I've studied theology and the history or evolving church theology for years. I can debate with the best of them. But that doesn't matter to me, and is not why I wrote what I did here.
Allow me to quote this comment from the Moderator, since he said it so well:
"Darcy's position was very clear. All of the teachings which she was addressing are extra-biblical in nature. The Bible is silent as to the area of emotional purity in relationships. The burden of proof is not on Darcy. The burden of proof lies with those who think God's word isn't enough to guide us in the area of relationships and take it upon themselves to create another set of principles to live by."
Well, Darcy, I think this says it all! When it is an area of freedom, not specifically addressed in Scripture, we can all do as seems best to us, while avoiding sexual sin. I would concur, that in our culture it is perfectly normal to have opposite-gender friendships of varying degrees without it being sexual or romantic in nature (in fact, seems a bit abnormal to follow the wife to the other room, b/c you "can't be alone together". I mean, you're in the public use areas of the house, right??). And I would deff say going on a date or even a few, does not equal emotional intimacy or getting hurt ;)
Darcy,
I appreciate your srticle. I'm coming from a non-Christian family in Europe, and don't approve the radical american Christian movements as "emotional purity", "biblical manhood/womanhood" etc because they are just "human systems".
However, I would like to point out some observations based on your article, since I have a more balanced view on the topic - not being hurt by it in any way.
1. they cause shame - yes, if you find for yourself a standard or principle of life, then, yes, whenever you violate it, you are ashamed. No problem here - just ask yourself: it this my personal conviction/lipfe principle or not? If you fail some of your own spiritual principles, which are God's too for sure, there is a complete redemption from God when there is genuine repentance - and this works also in emotional attachement and even emotional boundage! God can redeem a heart and make it able to love like Christ.
2. cause pride - yes, there's danger to become proudfull, but this is the case with every aspect of personal sanctification and personal spiritual maturity. It's no reason to not grow in hollines because you can become proud. In the correct relationship with God and in the correct order of things, one sees himself as he is, and not become proudfull. So you can be pure emotionally without pride.
3. disfunctionalities in relationships - I disagree, there has to be wisdom and balance with the opposite sex - you are able to be tender with your husband even if you didn't ocasionally "hug" your brothers in church.
4. formulas - yes, God doesn't put up formulas but principles of godly living. And the principle here is this: Nothing before or without God's leading and guiding (because He is the LORD, the "Master" of your life) towards a person of the opposite sex - what would be the point of getting ahead and fall in love, without the possibility of marriage (if not in God's plan)? This means you can like a guy more, but you should submit your feeling to God's guidance and plan and will, and never let them flow freely - just have the feeling suboordinated to God's principles. And for sure it's even better to "not awake love until it comes" as the Song of Songs says.
Hope this will be helpful for all of you who have been hurt by these teachings to reconsider and recognize the good things beyond what is unbiblical.
Blessings,
E
Nothing before or without God's leading towards a person of the opposite sex.... Sorry, but I don't see this in Scripture, either. And friendship certainly does not equal falling in love! I think Darcy's point, is that when an area is not specifically addressed in Scripture, it becomes an area of freedom, where each person can make their own decisions, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No one is advocating immorality. But neither do we advocate that another Christian can tell you what to do in such situations. As much as I hate the word, "principle" (for obvious reasons), the general principle here is to flee immorality. For most of us, that does not dictate complete avoidance of the opposite sex.
There is a GENERAL Principle regarding the LORDHIP of Christ - that applies to all major aspects of christian life. And in particular, marriage and relationships is a major aspect of life.
Of course, without wisdom and life experience you can do a lot of things - get involved in all kinds of "innocent friendships" and stuff - realizing too late you were playing with fire. Such decisions depend on many personal factors, and I'm not gonna discuss them ...
Back to the principle, if Christ is YOUR LORD, LORD over YOUR life, then He will have supremacy and priority in these major decisions and nothing of your own thoughts, feelings, drives etc. You will wait for His leading, and HE will give it to you, not in a spectacular way, but day by day, through all you are and face (like fears, emotions, etc).
There are no specific guidlines in Scriptures for many things - it doesn't mean you can do what ever you want and you have freedeom to do as you please (spiritual discernment works in any life-given situation).
It means you need discernment and wisdom from above to understand what Life Faith Principles apply in this case and how are they godly, practically, applied.
Please don't make a polemic with me about the topic - just pray and think about it, and try to use supranatural wisdom and spiritual discernment.
Hmm... Nope, can't even remotely agree. Yes, agree on the lordship part, but not the implementation of it. But I guess you will live your life as you see best, so okay, and I'll live mine as I believe God is directing me :)
I guess I'm going to end up having affairs with all of my guy friends, based on your theory. No thanks. They are my brothers, and very good friends, and that is ALL. 'Bear one another's burdens..' Nowhere in that scripture does it say, men share only men's burdens, and women's only women's, we are to have brotherly love for all. That does not indicate that friendships are out of the question, in fact, rather the opposite. How are we supposed to fellowship with one another with gender segregation? Scripture doesn't make any gender preference there either.
4. formulas - yes, God doesn't put up formulas but principles of godly living. And the principle here is this: Nothing before or without God's leading and guiding (because He is the LORD, the "Master" of your life) towards a person of the opposite sex - what would be the point of getting ahead and fall in love, without the possibility of marriage (if not in God's plan)? This means you can like a guy more, but you should submit your feeling to God's guidance and plan and will, and never let them flow freely - just have the feeling suboordinated to God's principles. And for sure it's even better to "not awake love until it comes" as the Song of Songs says.
This (and much of the rest of what you're saying) really looks like you're creating your own formula, but calling it "principles for godly living" instead.
Back to the principle, if Christ is YOUR LORD, LORD over YOUR life, then He will have supremacy and priority in these major decisions and nothing of your own thoughts, feelings, drives etc. You will wait for His leading, and HE will give it to you, not in a spectacular way, but day by day, through all you are and face (like fears, emotions, etc).
Doesn't this idea assume that your own thoughts, feelings, drives, et cetera, are always at odds with God's will? Isn't the Holy Spirit what was promised to guide us, rather than the "Lordship of Christ"?
Yeah, I'm not into suppressing emotions and natural desires, only with finding appropriate ways to express/fulfill them. Suppression gets you into waaaay too much trouble, imo.
No one is saying to completely avoid the opposite sex. As I said before, there has to be godly balance and wisdom in dealing with the opposite sex.
But immorality is a general thing, and so subtle you would not even realize - that's way prudence, and wisdom, and discernment and maturity are all once again needed.
For sure, everyone is "free" to act and behave as they understand is moral, godly and God honoring, if even they want to do that.
No one is telling another what to do - I just shared my view on the topic, based on my life-convictions, Christian faith and personal experience.
Instead of getting "warmed up" about the topic, we can ponder things in their true light with God and correctly consider things with His help.
Most of the objections people keep harping on here are covered in the second article I posted on this subject here:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/emotional-purity-and-courtship-a-conclusion/
....please read the 2nd article, folks. =)
I loved this article. I feel more and more how much these teaching have changed our generation. I left that world behind after college, and now live in an intentional Christian Community house that is... co-ed. I went from the idea that any relationship with a man is wrong, to living with 3 women and 4 men in the same house. I am still trying to figure out how to have normal relationships with guys. How to care for someone and not jump into thinking it is more than just a sincere friendship. Obviously from your billion comments you are not the only one who is dealing with getting the roots of these dangerous teachings out of your life, but I just wanted to say thanks along with everyone else.
OK... I have a question. Like, I THINK the point the writer was making was one of balance. We have a tendency to take a perfectly good thing and make it into a rule, thus defeating the purpose. So, my question... Where is the balance (what does it look like)?
Lori, try this article: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/emotional-purity-and-courtship-a-conclusion/
I think the balance basically boils down to respect, love, and the Golden Rule.
And, actually, the point I was trying to make was that courtship is ridiculous, harmful, pointless, and damaging.
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Everyone internalizes information differently, based upon their personality, environment, influences, and so on. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and lived out the exact opposite of emotional purity. Much later in life I had a radical conversion and began walking with Christ. This article is about how you internalized and lived out your experiences, however, to discredit emotional purity in the mix is quite a responsibility to place upon your soul. God will hold you accountable for discounting the valid truth that His will is for His Children to walk in purity, both mentally/emotionally and physically. Christ has one bride and His bride is to have one love. Biblical truth stands for itself. It is unfortunate that your situation has left you confused. I encourage you to go back to the Scriptures and embrace your interpretation of it through the lens of who God is, what His character and nature consistently reveals about Himself, and how He never changes. The pure in heart shall see God ~ and that is accomplished by the work of Christ in us. A pure heart will desire to please God and carry out His will, which is to be faithful to reveal the truth about the marriage relationship that clearly reflects the relationship between Christ and the Church. One Love Forever.
Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant by the term "emotional purity", especially as it relates to someone who is single and free to give said emotions to whomever they wish? I even heard someone recently describe dating as "emotional promiscuity", an idea I find NOWHERE in Scripure. Takes things a little too far, imo.
Thank you for this well written article.
My family and I tried the "courting" and "emotional purity" route as laid out by several of the authors mentioned here. I read the books by Joshua Harris and the Lucy's religiously. It sounded so beautiful and perfect: 1+1=2. After being in a "courting" relationship with a man from my church for over a year only to find out that for most of our relationship he was "unsure" if I was "the one" I was left with a completely broken heart, the very thing that following those teachings promised me I could avoid! I should also add that it left my parents wondering what was the right way for their children to pursue relationships with the opposite sex that would lead to healthy, godly marriages.
I observed first hand the awkwardness many of my peers had interacting with the opposite sex, always fearing they would give an appearance of evil. I myself fell into the sin of pride and legalism while in this relationship. I also allowed my self esteem to be measured by how I met this man's approval, was I submissive enough, dressed modestly enough, was I presenting myself as good future wife material? Never mind that he should love me for who God made me!
In the process of recovering from my heartbreak I can now say it brought me closer to the Lord, and allowed me to set some boundaries for myself when it came to relationships, which is not to say that I never made mistakes or did some very un ATI like experimenting!
The Lord showed me in a very powerful way that MY love story would be something I could not imagine, it would be something I would never have chosen had I been in control. And truly it was not. I started dating my husband after he had literally walked away from the Lord and how he was raised for the past 12 years. Within a year from our first date he had rededicated his life, we were attending church together, and we were married. Courting? No. Did he ask my father for permission to marry me? Yes. What I imagined, or thought I would receive from ATI teachings? No, and I am so glad!
Well written, it's why I'm single. Something about being told that liking certain guys gives away parts of your heart stuck with me and I could never see myself getting married or having a meaningful relationship because my parts of my heart are missing and I can't get them back. I still remember the first guy I kissed, I was 22. I cried for hours thinking I had just ruined any chance of ever finding true love because I made the biggest mistake of my life and almost ten years later it still haunts me because of the lies that were crammed down my throat and the punishments that were dealt out for merely engaging in conversations with the opposite sex.
I did not grow up ATI but married an ATI girl. When she gets together with some of her friends that were also in ATI, they reminisce about those days rather fondly. Sometimes they joke about "ultra-ATI dorks" but generally are relatively positive about the time there (she was often doing CI's out of town but never worked for an extended period of time at a TC.) My wife loves the Lord and loves me (!) and I appreciate that she was brought up honring her parents and encouraged to dress modestly. I have a great relationship with her parents because I spent my time at her house while we courted - we did not date in the everyday sense. I was the first man she ever kissed - what more could a guy ask for. I'm blessed, and for that I thank ATI.
It sounds like your wife perhaps comes from a family that is emotionally warm and supportive. I've read so many stories of pain (and lived one myself) - I can honestly say I'm happy to read of one that has turned out well. May your marriage continue to be blessed.
If I could, I would register one note of cognitive dissonance. I have been told repeatedly in no uncertain terms that all of the painful stories are the fault of individual screwed-up families, not the fault of ATI or Gothard. I notice you express gratitude to ATI, giving the Institute credit for your happy marriage. I admit some confusion over how the Intitute only deserves credit for the good and no blame for the bad stories.
But my intent was really just to be "grateful" with you. Thanks for dropping by and again, blessings to you and yours.
MatthewS
I suppose "thanks to ATI" for fostering a belief system and support community that upholds and emphasizes "traditional" values. Again, I've only been to a handful of seminars (and probably will not bend over backwards to attend another one), so I can only relate my vantage point. Actually, I am quite shocked when comparing my view of ATI with some of the horror stories I've read on this site. God bless you brother and rest in Christ.
I get what you are saying, and I DEFINITELY believe that in the context Gothard was using these elements, that they did have the outcome you are talking about. But in a whole, I think you are taking Ludy and Harris out of context. I don't think they are trying to sell the perfect formula for life, but I think they are trying to encourage teenagers, young adults, and adults, to live for Christ foremost...and THROUGH that, bring worship to God even in our relationships. This is not that if we do this everything is going to be perfect, but I see how you could get that growing up with Gothards teachings.
WAIT! Quoting LEWIS?? Don't we all know he wasn't really a Christian??? ;) Ha!
I first have to admit I did not read every comment, so if this is a repeat, I apologize. Every view can be taken to an extreme. Every teaching can be taken out of context. Two people can go through the same experience, and one will feel joy and fulfillment while the other feels dread and discontent.
Darcy's negative experiences with courtship (as well as others in this posting) may have more to do with the environment in which the courtship guidelines were set than the idea of courtship itself.
Also when talking to someone about "courtship" be sure to define what you mean.
Some people's ideas of courtship are no different than the world's idea of dating, except that the boy has to meet the parents before the first date (which is the same rule that many parents have for their daughters even if they are completely against courtship).
For others, courtship is essentially parental matchmaking couples and having them commit to marriage even before they meet. Quite a range of ideas!
Although courtship for some people has been a bad experience and even one that has caused deep wounds, dating the way that most of our culture does it has probably caused vastly more scars and damaged more long-term relationships than "courtship."
In my view, parents are not just the protectors for their children, but they also become their partners and advisors as the children get older.
From the blog comments I read, it sounds to me that those who had problems with courtship may have also had problems in communication and control with their parents. They may have also not been regarded as individuals by their parents but as something to monitored and managed. If this is the case, it would definitely negatively impact their courtship experiences, but honestly that type of environment would also probably negatively impact dating relationships as well.
This discussion is very good for those who have suffered under the type of courtship they followed or had imposed on them. However, don't throw away the good ideas behind courtship. Instead revise the process so your children can be thankful for your guidance. To me, allowing and encouraging your children to have good, healthy friendships with both boys and girls is one of the building blocks to guiding them to a building a relationship with a spouse later. Even so, the relationship between the parents and the children is the most vital element. The dynamics of that relationship will color other choices and their results.
I work with students that live in a very poor community and just last night as I was picking up students, some who are brand new Christians that we are trying to disciple, these girls say this boy and kept just going on and on about how great he looked and how they would like to date him. They also watch movies and TV shows that I would never even think about watching. We still have a long way to go with them but God is revealing himself more and more to them.
Anyways my point is that with teen sex inside the church the same as outside the church, along with divorce rates amoung so called Christians. I think the Church needs a lot more discipleship. I was raised with Gothard along with strong discipleship by my parents.
I was taught morals, how to treat girls, etc.
You can't throw out the whole book until you offer some type of remedy.
And yes when you have sex outside of marriage you have definitely given away a piece of your heart.
It sounds like you are doing an awesome work.
I read your comment and was reminded of the first 12 verses of 1 Thessalonians 4.
Thanks and thanks for the scriptures.
WAIT! There is a flip side here. You CAN be emotionally impure, and I wish someone had told me that. I started dating a guy when I was 17, became way too emotionally involved (talking about marriage, our children, etc). That preceded becoming too physically involved, because at that point it made sense. I have been married for almost 10 years to a man I adore, but that old relationship still haunts me sometimes, and in difficult times I am tempted to compare. I have talked to several other women in this same situation. All our marriages have been negatively affected by us becoming too emotionally involved in the dating process. I don't know about the whole Josh Harris formula, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water! It IS different than giving a piece of your heart to a friend or child -- perhaps it doesn't diminish your ability to love, but it does keep you connected to past flames that would be better off extinguished.
Also, I read a lot of Christian romance novels, and I do think they did more harm than good. The marriages are always intense and passionate, which set me up with the expectation that romance would always be overflowing in my Christian marriage. It's not that I think these books should have been banned; I just think that someone should've read and discussed them with me, or insisted that I read a variety of books instead of just romance after romance.
Thank you for writing this post. I too was homeschooled and brought up with the teachings of Josh Harris and the like, and they made perfect sense until I got out into the real world. And like you said, life is complicated and formulas fall apart.
I've been prideful about the fact that I won't have sex until I'm married. And while it's an important conviction and decision for me, I'm humbled by this article in that it should not be a source of pride. I've used it to put myself on a pedestal when compared to other girls, to make myself feel better in situations where other "not as pure" girls have found happiness with someone. I resent the girls (even my own sisters) who are much younger than me who have found love and gotten married because they didn't have to go through what I've had to go through or been tested like I have. Being 28 now, I've come to the realization in the past couple of years that the whole not having sex before marriage commitment has damaged me much more than any of the relationships that I have been in. It's caused me to be distant, unable to commit, and not able to be emotionally vulnerable. It's only caused self rightousness, bitterness, and resentment - towards God and others. I've been struggling for the past couple years about what to do or change besides giving in...and this post has given me a lot of direction and hope. Thank you.
Don't give in. God has the perfect person for you. We tend to look at what other people have and forget what God has given us. Throw out the self-righteousness, bitterness, resentment, and the pedestal.
This was a very interesting article! I was only mildly exposed to Bill Gothard when my husband and I were expecting our first child 18 years ago. There were portions of the weekend program that seemed helpful and portions that struck us as "odd". Anyway, fast forward to our first born's preteen and teen years. We have read and talked about many of the concepts in Josh Harris' and Eric Ludy's books and a few other books with more and less extreme ideas related to dating/courtship/marriage. We never realized they were some how related to ATI. We have encouraged our kids to wait to date/court until they have a direction in life instead of getting into hot and heavy relationships long before they were ready for marriage. We chose this simply because they don't need distractions like that while they are trying to figure out direction in life. We have also seen many kids ruin their futures by getting involved sexually, etc. But there is no taboo against crushes and we are fine with 'herd' dates where they get to know a group of friends better. We are even okay with occasional dates to various events that "require" dats. Like a friend s prom or formal.
In fact, when a kid has a crush we encourage them to write down the character traits they admire in the person and to continue the friendship. We want them to know anyone they date/court well before they actually date/court. Often they have gradually become disinterested as they find out more about the person.
My response to all of you is this: Please ask yourself if it is your involvement in this IBPL/ATI stuff or these author's "fault" that you are taking their concepts so over board as to be obsessive compulsive with the concepts they present. These are not "bad" books in and of themselves. It is when we take somone's ideas and decide we need to magnify them to extreme levels that we end up having problems like Darcy does. I tend to see kids who are really involved with IBLP/ATI as having obsessive/compulsive behaviors and taking anything they read to extreme levels because of that perspective they carry with them in life. Maybe because that is what their parents are doi g and maybe of their own accord. Not sure.
We are going to re-read the Harris' books and Ludy's books and other dating and courtship books again this summer to see if I have led our kids astray. And, as always, we will continue the conversation in our family as each child begins to blossom into adulthood! We aren't going to hold them or any future spouses to unattainable expectations. We have experienced that pain first hand! Nothing like know your in laws wish you weren't married to their kid!
Balance!
I recognize there were some typos in that post. Working on a tiny screen with 46 year old eyes doesn't always work well! Posting from an iPhone.
1. For those that think that the people were at fault, not the system itself, and that we who were hurt make up a small percentage of the courtship world, please read Part 2 of my series here:
http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
2. For those that think that I wasn't promoting balance, re-read my article without being defensive and also read Part 3 of my series here: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/emotional-purity-and-courtship-a-conclusion/
3. Those of you who promote these teachings, consider the facts: we who have written and commented on the failures of courtship are first-generation homeschoolers. We are contemporaries of the very leaders and authors who came up with these ideas. We were the guinea pigs, the control group, the experiment that is the courtship movement. We are the first-fruits of these teachings. Doing some research, looking around the internet, being involved in homeschool forums and discussion groups for the past 10 years, I've come up with about a 75% failure rate for anything termed "courtship". That's a pretty bad review right there. You wouldn't buy a TV or vacuum with a 75% bad review rate. Yet you're willing to promote a system of guidelines, an entire way of life based on that? You, and every parent that has written me nasty e-mails because of this series, would do well to listen to those of us...HUNDREDS of us...whom the system failed.
When I first wrote this article and posted it on my personal blog, it went viral. I got so many e-mails and comments that I couldn't keep up. I was swamped. People from my generation were relieved, angered, freed to speak up, and so grateful I said anything. I was contacted by people all over the world who confirmed everything I had written. Story after story came out from people I didn't know. There were discussions all over the internet, all confirming what I had written. The only people who were upset about it and some downright rude to me, were parents who wanted to force this system on their kids, and the 25% for whom it turned out fine. The overwhelming majority of the literally thousands of notes and e-mails and comments were in agreement. That's huge. And worth paying attention to.
I am from that generation, the problem you are describing is that we tend to take what advice a writer has written and think that is the gospel truth. We sometimes forget to go to the Bible and see what it has to say about the subject. Just like when we go to church we let the pastor dictate what the Bible says instead of us researching it ourselves.
The other problem is that when we read a blog we only get part of the picture. I did go read the next two like you suggested. The answer is in the third blog.
You don't need to follow a set "formula" but you still need to keep yourself from a situation where you will be tempted to sin. I believe sex before marriage is a sin, but i stilI dated guys before I got married. If they tried to go too far with me I stopped dating them. When I found a guy that would treat me right we got engaged and then married. We were both virgins and I'm so greatfull for that. Please note that I also believe we can be forgiven by our loving father in heaven if we make mistakes, even serious sexual sins, but of course this is not ideal. Do not be ashamed to like men or get to know them by dating them! Just be careful or you may be tempted to sin. Know what you can handle. It helps to go on group dates and not stay alone late at night with them. I wish everyone a healthy and happy relationship. I am truly happy with my spouse and we are clean and pure before the Lord.
My wife and I dated/courted/dorted, whatever you want to call it.
Yes, we spent time alone--without accountability (other than God's and each other). Yes, we married BOTH AS virgins! We did not have a drawn out courtship, for which we are both glad, but if we had, the Holy Spirit would have been sufficient to guide us through it without falling! I am TOTALLY CONVINCED of His sufficiency and faithfulness!
Today, we tend to so distrust the flesh (rightfully), but we categorically dismiss the power of the Holy Spirit to do His effective work in us! Why do we distrust the Spirit of God? Why are some surprised when we see a 75% failure rate using moralistic methods? I do not find these statistics to be shocking.
It is impossible to replace the effective work of the Holy Spirit with the methods of human moralisms! We cannot produce a better result than God can! Who came up with these ideas in the first place?
Reality check: It's not in the word you call it, folks!
That said, the courtship teaching as espoused by IBLP/ATI and other organizations leads people to think they KNOW what EVERYONE ELSE is thinking when they use the word COURTSHIP or BETROTHAL. Having been through a failed courtship previously myself and having observed others do the same, I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth! For starters, "Courtship" is NOT LESS PAINFUL than "Dating."
Darcey said it well when she cited the error of thinking that we are "safe" using a specific method. That is dangerous. We are only safe when we walk listening to the continual promptings of the Holy Spirit and obey them!
These promptings are available to ALL BELIEVERS regardless of denominational persuasion or doctrinal position. The presence of the Holy Spirit is available to all believers for the asking. He is our Guide, Comforter, and Friend as we walk through the pathways of life--even the darkest and most slippery ones.
My wife and I both reject the false and misleading claims of the courtship movements.
THANK YOU! Yes, the Holy Spirit is more than we, and God is completely capable of working His perfect will through us! The Bible thumpers (who apparently read the Scriptures with their eyes closed) would do well to remember that.
To say it in a single sentence, "Run to Jesus...not moralisms."
"We are only safe when we walk listening to the continual promptings of the Holy Spirit and obey them! "
perfectly stated
Ok, I'm not coming from an IBLP based background here, although I have been exposed to some ideas. I just really have strong feelings on this topic. I believe there IS some merit to the "emotional purity" idea, just not in the legalistic way it's usually proposed. My opinion is that the current mode of dating, where you have multiple relationships starting when you're 12 is wrong. I believe that the opposite extreme is equally wrong. I think God designed boys and girls with desires for each other from very young ages. I believe that is good and normal, but I don't believe young people should necessarily get emotionally attached to each other at least until they are old enough to get married. I think a general good rule of thumb is that a man should at least be able to support himself and a wife before getting seriously involved in a relationship. I am 17, and I've never been in any sort of dating relationship, however, I am close friends with many females. I'm not antisocial when it comes to girls, I just don't feel I'm ready for a relationship. I really believe that God will make provision for me when it's time.
Good for you, and I agree. My husband and I have decided that we would not let our future children date until they have graduated highschool, bu we would encourage them to have friendships, they need to learn what the opposite gender is like, and what to look for, what to expect in marriage partners, what to avoid, etc... And we hope that they would end up marrying their best friend, like we did. :)
The scripture Does Not read
"Trust in the principles of courtship with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge the textbook and it shall direct your path."
God is giver of Good Gifts!! Trust Him!
haha, love it!
I need to make something clear here. My point throughout my last post AND this one is that I feel sorry for you for getting mixed up by this Bill Gothard guy. I believe this is the main issue behind your confusion about how to act around men. As a child of a mother with bipolar disorder I often word things from a "psychiatric" vocabulary. Not to be unkind - my ability to immediately hear an obsessive or compulsive behavior and call it what it is has kept her on the planet for 16 years. When you "worry about sticking your tongue out at someone being flirting" you are dealing with an obsession that was evidently ingrained in you by your parents or Mr. Gothard and friends. HOWEVER, I don't think reading a variety of books, comparing them to scripture, praying and making choices that you believe honor God on any subject that the Bible is vague on is wrong.
Just as I have read a number of books about what manatees are like and some of them say one thing and other books say another, if nobody is certain about all the details on manatees it doesn't make it wrong to read one that says they like butterhead lettuce better, when another book says their favorite lettuce is romaine. We get the general idea that manatees like various types of lettuce and since they can't tell us we'll never know for sure.
I believe that reading a variety of books on dating, courtship, sex and to some extent even marriage has been good for me and for my kids as they start considering options. I DON'T like Bill Gothard, but various forms of dating and courtship existed long before he was born. I don't believe that I should be never read a book about it because he gets weird about it.
My husband and I attended ONE weekend Bill Gothard event 18 years ago. We thought it was odd. I'd even go so far as to say we thought it was WEIRD. Never thought about it again. We are christians, missionaries, in fact. We homeschool - because we have a child with chronic health problems, not out of conviction that it is the only way. We use a fair amount of Christian curriculum but we also LOVE the library! What can I say, I've been a bookworm my whole life!. Our kids are involved in many extra curricular activities both outside and in our church. We avoid speakers at home school conventions that act too much like they have been hanging out with Bill Gothard and friends because we don't need put under their pile.
About 8 years ago, as we headed into the 'tween years with the oldest, we came across various books in Christian book stores related to sex, dating, courting, etc. We read them, had our kids read them as they got old enough and interested, had many conversations. Some of them were Harris' books, some of them were Ludy's books and there is a pile of other authors, too. We LOVE Walt Larimore's book "Lintball Leo" that is for tween boys and is very down to earth, yet honestly pointing kids to God. Each kid has their own ideas about what is and isn't going to happen in their plan to find spouses and we are supporting them. Our daughter doesn't want to kiss until she says "I Do." She is a romantic, creative 10 year old and hasn't read much yet. Our 18 year old realizes he needs to really know where he is going before he takes someone with him. Good goals.
We aren't going on anybody's dates with them unless they invite us as a special treat or because of common interest. We'd love for them to enjoy hanging out with us, but we aren't going to push it. We think it would be cool if our kids and their future spouses take time to get to know us and it would be really sweet. We hope "the guy" asks our little girl's daddy if it is okay to ask her to marry him. But we hold no reins. We hope our relationship is strong enough that they WANT to let us in on the secret and ask for ideas about how our little girl has always wanted to be asked. We hope a book we used while engaged is still in print, although probably updated would be best. It was helpful at helping us get to know each other in areas we hadn't thought to talk about, yet. You get the idea.
What I was trying to say in my previous post is that because we weren't overly impacted by the Bill Gothard stuff we felt very free to look at the ideas in the various books, look at the Bible, talk pray and let each of our kids come up with a plan. As long as it doesn't overtly go against the Bible we are okay. For instance, we think it is wise to be somewhat modest but never to a weird extreme. It is just nice to know we are NOT about to pop out of our clothes if we move wrong.
We and our kids don't have Bill Gothard colored glasses (Our kids have never heard of the guy!) with which we see the world. Our glasses are plastered in Christ's love and atonement. Darcy and/or her parents, from the original post evidently does or did have on Bill Gothard glasses when these books were read at her house and that caused some obsessive compulsive behaviors related to men. (It is very sad to hear that that kind of stuff happened to anyone. Whether it was because her parents pushed her further into believing or being told to believe strange stuff or because she heard stuff at Bill Gothard's weekend meetings or.... We feel sorry for her that she was so overexposed to and maybe forced to believe some of the strange stuff she shared. She was raised way up there on one side of a pendulum swing.)
However, there is room for balanced reading of various authors and considering how we want to implement areas of scripture that are quite vague. If you run up against some author who strikes you odd or weird, consider whether or not it is scriptural, over board, under board and move on. Sometimes you'll hear that you were right, later. Sometimes you'll read it again a few years later with your Bill Gothard glasses OFF and realize there is some solid stuff in there and that you can't believe what you used to think it said back when those nasty glasses were on. Sometimes you wi llhear that the author has some other problems. Sometimes he'll declare the end of the world is May 21, 2011! Sometimes you'll be reading scripture 10 years later, read something, remember a talk you didn't get and laugh at yourself!
Hubby and I were treated pretty horribly by parents as we prepared for marriage and as newly weds. It has been pretty strained ever since, as a result. VERY long story - nothing to do with Bill Gothard, in fact, my father in law was an agnostic until near the very end of his life. As a result of that experience it is important to us that we talk about all sorts of things with our kids from all sorts of angles when scripture is not clear. We support their ability to choose wisely what they will believe to be right. We also want our kids to a be educated enough to not be taken advantage of (Our daughter WILL have self defense classes!) or do some of the most basic stupid things that could end in tragedy. Of course, they may have tragdy of one sort or another hit them, yet!
We also recognize, as parents, that our kids may or may not have truly accepted Christ yet. We won't know for sure until heaven, in fact. But they each know where they are. We recognize that they can be led into some incredibly bizarre stuff out there in the world. They may even end up in jail or homeless or any number of other things. But they will always be our kiddos. We will always love them. Many of you may need to realize that - even if your parents are still mixed up with this Bill Gothard guy and all of his friends. They do love you! Even if you don't talk anymore - by your choice or theirs.
What a great post! THank you for your kind heart.
It turns out I know this Shawna and her family. I went to college with her husband. They're wonderful people who understand God's grace.
Shawna, I've had to learn to consider the meaning of all of my words here, because the words we take for granted may have a different meaning in Gothard world (it's basically a cult). There's a different lingo, and many triggers that cause strong reactions. "Courtship" is a volatile one, for good reason.
A nice example of what you're saying that comes to mind is how my wife read dozens of books about getting our children to go to bed, etc. We discarded extremes and definitely picked and chose parts that fit our family and the kids' different personalities.
As you meet other moms, please get the word out about Gothard, though. Take care.
Should have thought of that word being a big deal with former Bill Gothard folks. The reason I read the article Darcy posted was a friend recommended it. Her family experienced some Bill Gothard weirdness a few years ago related to their son (who comess from a similar mentality as us on the courtship thing) courting a girl who was from a true Bill Gothard family. Long story short the Bill Gothard family disowned their daughter and she eventually married our friends' son a year or two ago and now they have a little one on the way.
I am the mother of eleven children, married 35 years and have never been to a Gothard conference and have no idea what IBLM even stands for. But, in the course of our parenting journey, we have always encouraged our sons and daughters to simply avoid participation in "recreational romance" which is selfish in nature and often ends in heartbreak. Instead, we encourage them to postpone committed relationships or "ownership" of another person through emotional or physical claim staking (he's MY boyfriend or girlfriend) We have never discouraged having relationships with the opposite sex, just having safe and healthy boundaries. In fact, we hope that our children will be prepared for marriage at an early age so that if a suitable partner comes along when they are young, they won't be frustrated by having to wait years to marry because they've spent their youth playing and not preparing.
I once met a well-meaning, jean-jumper and white keds wearing homeschool mom who, when hearing that we had a large family and home educated,asked me "Do you guys DO courtship?" I thought, "What the heck is she talking about?" She was completely serious. And I was clueless. We have four married children and never "did" courtship.We have four more children, in the chute, so to speak,who are in various stages of developing relationships aimed at marriage. And they all look quite different. No formulas. No shortcuts. No timelines. Just life unfolding before us with all of its bumps and gullies to watch out for. And two watchful, prayerful parents who are involved but not controlling, shaming, coercing or threatening.
I have read the article with interest, read most of the discussion following and what I see, for the most part is a lot of pure REACTION. Not necessarily a reasoned response, but a pendulum swinging wide from side to side as people defend their own emotional opinions, and, by the way, using the Scriptures craftily to defend both their legalism and, the alternative, disregard of Biblical wisdom and freedom with few boundaries and little caution. I won't resort to the old "what is this younger generation coming to?" line, however, it is common knowledge that we live in a post-modern world where otherwise earnest Christians are put off by any hint of even Christ Himself teaching about what is right and wrong. There are no absolutes. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes. And don't dare tell someone else what to do or state that something is Scriptural or they'll use the "L" word against you (you, Legalist, you!)
Seriously, I hear a lot of pain and brokenness and yes, quite a bit of bitterness showing like a lacy slip. I am so sorry for those children who were raised in such an oppressive environment that they now are bolting from it like a rock in a slingshot. Unfortunately, the rock is likely to hit someone else in the eye and end up causing as much pain as that from which the injured one is running. Response, not reaction, is what we should aim for. Step back. Examine. Cross-examine. Trouble-shoot and problem solve. Every parent on earth wants what is best for their children and don't set out to cause harm. After the author of the article (Darcy?) has a few children, navigates the teen years and then helps her almost grown children in the rough waters of finding a mate, I'd love to see if she has some adjustments to make in her assessments of the "rules of courtship" Much of what was described in the article and subsequent responses amounts to some pretty screwed up, misogynistic garbage. It would be so helpful to hear the voice of reason applied to the subject without throwing all caution to the wind and rejecting wisdom regarding the development of male/female relationships.
My $1.25 cents worth.
I hear from older women that have "been there done that" in regards to courtship that my article is right on. I assume you wouldn't think they are just immature, bitter, and reacting. Some of them have raised 6-12 kids and are my greatest supporters in the things I write against these teachings. I have much respect for these seasoned mothers and grandmothers who encourage me in my pursuit of truth and freedom and grace-based parenting, and who also decry the legalism of teachings such as the ones outlined in my article. I am quite certain your concern is misplaced.
I am also the mother of 4 children who are quickly getting older, so talking down to me as a less experienced mother is also misplaced. You seem to forget that many of us here who write these things and comment on them are in our 30's, 40's, and even 50's. Some are parents who tried to force these teachings on their own kids are wish they never did. We are not rebellious, bitter teenagers who don't know a thing about real life. Some of us have teens ourselves and are doing just fine navigating relationships without any of these legalistic rules. I would suggest if you desire people to listen to what you think is your wisdom and experience, that you leave off the condescending tone.
Laura wrote: "I once met a well-meaning, jean-jumper and white keds wearing homeschool mom who, when hearing that we had a large family and home educated,asked me "Do you guys DO courtship?" I thought, "What the heck is she talking about?" She was completely serious. And I was clueless. We have four married children and never "did" courtship."
If you had no idea what she was talking about, then you don't have much idea what it's like to experience this kind of lifestyle/relationship style either as parent or as a young adult.
"Response, not reaction, is what we should aim for. Step back. Examine. Cross-examine. Trouble-shoot and problem solve"
That's the point, really. Because when the idea that courtship is "God's way" (as opposed to all other ways) is placed under examination, it is found wanting. Trouble. And many times hurtful. In my mind it's not the method that is so offensive (although I object to it being forced upon myself) -- it is that most people who promote it promote it as The Only Biblical Way. Which is just silly. And very bad interpretation of Scripture. But wait. To assume that children of a group of people who taught that courtship was only way are bitter, and only making emotional (as opposed to logical?) reactions is really assuming too much. Has it occurred to the children of that group of people have something serious to react to?
Are you saying that there are only two options here, either legalism, or "complete disregard of Biblical wisdom"? That was what I got from your comment, "either legalism, or the alternative..."
You said you wouldn't use the line of, "What is the younger generation coming to," but then you basically did, if only Darcy was older and wiser and had some children of her own, or if she had teenage children, she would see this differently... So I heard basically the same thing. And what, exactly, is the "misogynistic garbage"? Really not sure whether you are referring to Darcy's story, or to the opposition. Or both.
I think you are making the point that there needs to be balance, and there I agree with you. I don't believe there is a one-size fits all approach to relationships. I'm really not sure why it's a problem to speak out against someone who is advocating a teaching which allows and even requires a great deal of parental control, to the detriment of the young people involved. And, as Darcy DOES have personal experience with IBLP and their teachings and practice of courtship, I'd say she's a lot further along in the experience department, than someone who doesn't even know what IBLP stands for. I realize you probably have life experience that exceeds Darcy's in some areas. But insofar as having firsthand experience of certain teachings on courtship, and the dangers thereof, Darcy is there, and is qualified to write about it.
This was the best comment on this entire post. Let's seek the Lord, His Word, and pray day to day for wisdom. There is balance in all things. No parent is perfect, but I suspect the author's parents tried to do what they felt God wanted them to do. Bitterness only leaves the believer unable to move on and be used by the Lord.
Actually, my "bitterness" is what compelled me to start writing my story, helping hundreds of others heal, and help myself move one and enjoy life. Thank God for "bitterness" in my life! It's saved me and many others and God has greatly used me because of it.
Lots of people do horrible things because they think God wanted them to. So what? Their motives don't excuse their actions.
Bitterness: I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Emotions are not wrong. What you do with them can be.
I hope I never accuse someone of being bitter, even if they really are bitter about something, it's unfair. We can't know other people's hearts, but let me make it clear, in my experience, when anyone accuses us of being bitter, to me it's an excuse to 'close your ears to the cry of the poor'. I, for one, am beyond sick of that label.
Perhaps you did not mean it that way, and I can easily believe that you have good intentions here. I simply want you, and everyone else to know, the following statement is what we hear when the dreaded 'b' word is thrown out.
'Now I have a legitimate reason to ignore the fact that a religious leader is cruelly abusing his power, and hundreds or thousands of people have suffered fiercely, but I get to ignore that because of a loophole qualification, and walk away feeling more spiritual because of it." When Scripture clearly says to 'weep with those who weep.' People who weep have a REASON for weeping, and Christ Himself does not condemn it.
I think this article is right on in many respects but may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I was home schooled, brought up in circles that taught some of Bill Gothard's materials, and was an early teen right when "I kissed dating goodbye" first came out. I'm very thankful for my parent's balanced view and guidance with these teachings. I think they gave me a good ideal which I've taken and made realistic for me. I am 27, single, and open to what God has for me. I loved the theory of marrying the first guy I liked, but that wasn't God's plan (which looking back I'm extremely grateful for). I have high standards and because of them don't regret anything I've done with guys I've had relationships with so far. I guess I just try to date with purpose - I see dating as fun, but not a game. I have plenty of guy friends, have had a few "boyfriends", and feel like God has given me a healthy perspective on both, using and in spite of the teachings mentioned above.
I don't see Darcy knocking "courtship" in and of itself, Abby. I think she is saying there is no one right way. And that the teachings as presented to us, were extreme, and thereby damaging.
I absolutely agree, when taken as a whole to their natural conclusions, Gothard's teachings and many others are extreme and damaging. I don't believe in courtship, practice it, or encourage it myself. My point was that there are some good concepts here that can be gleaned from a balanced perspective.
There are several good points throughout this conversation. However, if anyone's goal here is to help then it's starting to fail miserably. I would not allow my impressionable young child to read any of this... They'd come out more confused. God has final say in all things whether u or I agree with it or not. If we only surround ourselves with ppl who agree with us, well then, we're just creating the same scene as this Gothard guy supposedly has created. Only difference is we made the rules. How about we let what has been written that's of God stand and everything that's of man fall by the wayside. That isn't to dismiss anyone's feelings, but I would hope that our goal would be that only what is truly of God be the lasting impression we ever leave with anyone. This is where it gets to the fact that we as individuals stand before God. We are to seek Him, his truth, wisdom knowledge and understanding for ourselves. God does use ppl, but everything has to be filtered through Him. There's no substitution for being on our knees seeking God's face.
"However, if anyone's goal here is to help then it's starting to fail miserably."
Actually, this article and the many conversations that it's inspired has helped literally hundreds of people. I'm not sure what your standard of "failure" and "success" is, but it's obviously different then what's really happening here.
"I would not allow my impressionable young child to read any of this.".
Well, that's probably a good idea. Impressionable young children shouldn't really be worrying about relationships, sex, dating, and marriage anyway.
Actually, I have heard several people say that RG has helped them. I don't believe the content of this website is intended for very young children, but I do find it appropriate for older teenagers and young adults. I sure hope you are not censoring all their reading material at that point. If they are involved with the ATI/iblp organization, they can and should be asking questions at that point.
It's also appropriate for old adults like me =-)
Recovering Grace has helped me tremendously. Apparently you do not need the help they provide here, which is probably why you do not see it as 'helpful'. Or perhaps this particular article strikes a nerve with you for some reason, and it's not something your care for. That's perfectly alright.
You are not broken and in need of a doctor. We are.
WE need to hear from people who have been there and come out of it. Most of the articles have been written by people who are older and more experienced than myself, and have 'paved the way' for me to figure out how to get out of ATI alive (which nearly didn't happen.), and moving onto a right relationship with God. It is helpful and encouraging to me to know that I am not alone in this fight, and am not left wondering where to go. ATI instilled a terrible fear of God in me, and it wasn't the good kind of fear. To this day I am terrified of a right relationship with God because my parents touted their (ATI) experience and behavior as 'the only RIGHT way', and that way was full of evil and left horrible scars on me. There are days when I feel like I'm hanging on by my fingertips to faith in God, and trusting in Him, but there's one thing I do know. He's not finished with me yet, and I'm going to be ok! And I am grateful for the people here. They have helped me. As for your impressionable children, you are probably not putting them through the hell we went through, they'd have no need of reading these articles, nor are they old enough to even think about these topics of conversation, so your point is moot there.
Here's how I think it's supposed to happen. A single man and single woman notice each other, and like each other, say nice things to each other, and do little favors for each other. One night, after the single man has eaten his dinner, he lies down and goes to sleep, and the single woman sneaks in, and lies down at his feet. He wakes up at midnight and realizes she's there. Then she asks him to marry her. He says she's very kind, and will give her an answer tomorrow after he checks out some things. Then he says they should go back to sleep, and that she should sneak out early in the morning so no one will know she was there.
The next day the single man checks out the things he wanted to check out, and then says "Yes" to single woman. They get married and live happily ever after.
In other words, there ain't no formula. There are a million different good, legitimate ways for a man and woman to get together.
LOL! and I agree.
Hey, brother! Yeah, I wish I had known that twenty years ago, when I drank heavily of the Kool-Aid, which made me allergic to women for a good ten years. At this point, I'm probably just going to run out the clock solo, but I'm fine with that.
Or you could send your slave to bring home the first girl that watered his camels.
Or you could wait til your older brother dies so you can inherit his wife.
Or you could work for a guy for 14 years and get not one, but TWO of his daughters and their slaves.
Or you could go out and marry an unfaithful prostitute.
I mean, if we're talking "biblical methods for getting a spouse", we've got a lot of crazy examples to choose from. ;)
Awesome. I love it.
how's this for marriage counseling from God when it all goes wrong...the man is told to go to the slave auction to buy a whore, who used to be his wife.
Hey Darcy!
Thank you for your article and for your honesty and courage to put your thoughts out here. I read it with great interest.
As I have not grown up in the states and don't even know what ATI is, I may be missing a lot of where your perception comes from. But I would like to suggest that as far as the authors of the books are concerned, the effects it had on you weren't their intention.
Having read those books (and with a pinch of salt for some chapters, where I felt they were a bit over the top, but very, very thankful for other chapters), I had the impression that their heart was NOT to condemn, and not to bring legalism and shame into the area of relationships. And #1 that "every crush is giving away your heart" was not written in those books. they were talking of relationships / sexual interactions, etc. and for that it is true.
For other points I can see where you are coming from, although I don't necessarily agree. And I am really sorry you are hurting in that area and struggling with long-term effects of it.
Basically, what I want to say, we need to distinguish between what was actually said and the filters through which we read / hear the message, as through these filters it may arrive at our thinking in quite a distorted form.
All the best
I think Darcy is disagreeing with the idea that "every relationship prior to marriage gives away a piece of your heart, making less available to your spouse". Which, as you just admitted, is found in those books. I understand Darcy to be disagreeing with this concept, as not found in Scripture, as contrary to much truer and healthier ideas about love and human relationships.
First off, I want to say that I'm sorry that you grew up in a place that in reality didn't encourage spiritual growth, or show you the grace that Christ gives. We do what we do as Christians because we love Christ, not because we feel the need to appease God as some other religions do.
Now, regarding this article, I have to admit, I feel judged. I chose "courting" over how people generally date, not to make myself feel better than others, but because I was tired of throwing my emotions around and getting hurt. It's important to add here that I don't follow all the rules that many do, but have instead given myself some guidelines to follow regarding emotional purity. I don't feel that looking at guys automatically means lustful thinking. The guy I'm in courtship with holds my hand, hugs me, and even (gasp!) kisses me. I'm able to have friendships with guys *because* I have personal guidelines that keep me from getting emotionally entangled and my beau from wondering if I'm cheating on him. I don't view courting as a set of rules; I simply see it as choosing to build a marriage-minded relationship instead of throwing caution to the wind and dating just anybody.
When I see people go in and out of relationships, I don't smugly think I'm so much better off than them, but instead hurt for them. I want them to know that things can be better, that they don't have to keep hurting. I want to see them build lasting relationships instead of jumping into something that "might" work that only leads to their heartbreak.
I don't feel shamed, or proud (and if I am in any way, I trust the Holy Spirit to convict me on the matter, not man,) and I feel my relationships are much healthier now than they had been previously.
I will be keeping those who grow up and live by legalism in my prayers. I hate seeing lives that don't know grace. And I think it's easy to look down on those who we see as modern Pharisees, but we must remember that Christ loves them, too.
I'm curious how the author would respond, then, to the fact that I did NOT grow up with these teachings and still have many of these feelings...
This article is flawed in many ways and, in my opinion, is damaging in and of itself. To be fair, I have not done a whole lot of study on courtship practice; I do not even know of Gothard or the groups you mention. I have loved everything I have read from Josh Harris, though! There is much truth to the idea that the more you give away, the less you have left. Intimate love is different from any other and it is very inaccurate and shallow to compare it to the love you have for your children or friends. In fact, by her own logic that "The more you give, the more you have," is the author implying that the more people you date, the more fully you are capable of loving your spouse? I started dating far too young (12) and I certainly feel like the heart I gave my husband was calloused, jaded, and incomplete.
My husband dated the same way I did and I am still hurt and haunted by the shadows of his former girlfriends and fiancee. Our eight years together have been filled with arguments and insecurities built in former relationships. We have separated twice with the mind of divorcing, and have struggled to repair the damages of three affairs. I know not every marriage that results from dating faces the dysfunction ours has/is, but I once heard dating decribed as "divorce practice" and I think that is true in many ways. The way most people, even Christians, date nowadays sets a pattern of falling in love, giving your heart, then cutting your losses when things "don't work out."
One commenter here talked a bit about some Gothard teachings and they do sound legalistic in a Pharisee sort of way, but I still think this article goes too far in its backlash. Pride is sinful ALWAYS, not just regarding a certain set of teachings. The author's idea that these teachings create a skewed view of relationships and create dysfunction is short-sighted. Darcy feels she has these "dysfunctional" feelings as a result of the teachings she was raised with, but I have the exact same feelings. Literally. I could have written that whole point. My feelings do not come from overbearing teachings, but rather from knowing there is some truth in them! I KNOW firsthand that things are NOT always as innocent as they seem, and I think it is right to be on guard and a little scared of those feelings. What is it that the Bible says about being careful when you THINK you are standing firm, that you do not fall. Don't work too hard to get comfortable around the opposite sex; those platonic feelings can turn on you in a heartbeat.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. I don't like the sound of the Gothard teachings, but I also think it is unwise to completely reject the ideas of courtship and emotional purity simply because some people take it too far.
hmm... so, I'm thinking... you are failing to take into account the fact that, courtship models, do not give you a chance to really know the person, because you are not even allowed to spend any time alone with them. You're right, some teenagers do have a haphazard pattern of date and breakup ad infintum, which is also not healthy. Honestly, I think a pattern of "responsible dating" would be better than either extreme. If you've only read Josh Harris on the subject, and don't know Bill Gothard's stance, you honestly have no idea how extreme Gothard's version really is. I would say he bounces back and forth between Harris' model, which I personally view as intentional dating, to Lindvall's model, which is nothing short of an arranged marriage, in which the girl has NO say.
I don't believe any method guarantees a good marriage. Rather, it depends on the people in the marriage, and the tools they have to work with.
And one more thing... while romantic love is slightly different from a mother's love... the intensity is actually a pretty good comparison. Such love is in no way diminished through multiplication. It couldn't possibly be.
Angela, you said: "My husband dated the same way I did and I am still hurt and haunted by the shadows of his former girlfriends and fiancee."
I read that and my heart broke for you. That is a burden that no one should be bearing. You CAN let it go. You do not have to live under the shame of anyone's past sins. This has nothing to do with courtship or dating but with the Enemy of your heart trying to keep you in bondage and keep you from experiencing joy in your marriage. Throw those chains off, sister! You have been freed from them and should bear them no longer. God himself said "their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more" and "as far as the east is from the west, that far have I removed their sins and their shame from them". Own those promises and let your husband's and your sins roll off you and into the gutter where they belong. I am so sorry that you have born the shame for these things when you didn't have to. No matter how far we've fallen in the past, God can restore and make us new. ((hugs)) to you.
The questions that I have are this: where in the scriptures does it teach about "losing your heart"----whether all or part of it in courtship or dating? Can we not "lose our heart" when a loved one dies? Does that mean,for example, that a widow cannot remarry? It is a safe bet that she has given more than her heart away. We can "lose our heart" when whatever tragedy happens, or when the political climate changes, or if a job is lost, or when the skies are cloudy and grey. I have even " lost heart" when my dog died and I got beat out for the state wrestling tournament! Get the picture? Life is full of risks----even in dating or whatever you call it. I would rather take risks, even fall flat on my face rather than be in a legalistic bondage.
Todd, your question is appropriate, but I would like to answer it by setting aside Bill Gothard's quite twisted approach.
What we yearn for, what we are designed for, what our sexuality aches for is full, faithful, fruitful, freely given and received love. This is covenantal because of the fullness: til death do us part. Gothard focused on one small piece, fullness, and twisted it to build a philosophy of fear: don't give of yourself because it might not return. Of course, if you want to "keep" something, you are not really willing to give it away anyway. Even in marriage we fight this battle: can I trust the other enough to risk giving of myself? But trusting God and His design frees me from this fear.
My wife used to fear that she did not "have enough love for another child". You would not believe how God multiplies love in her life! She has 8 grown children, each of whom has a deep and wonderful relationship with her, and each of whom adds great riches to her life. She never says now that she is just all loved out and doesn't want to talk to another child. She can't wait for our 4 grandchildren to become 20!
Jesus died for all. He loves billions who will never love Him back. That is Grace. That is Mercy.
I am not arguing for promiscuity. I am explaining that Gothard's fear-based approach was just as unsound. If we were willing to unselfishly give our heart to everyone, without expectations, and wise enough to not damage ourselves through immorality and submission to abuse, we could never be hurt. Do you think Jesus was "hurt" when Peter denied Him? He expected it! He came willingly to receive that rejection! But if we guard and protect our heart, to the point of not loving anyone else, we will die empty and alone.
Our sin, our misperceptions, and erroneous teaching are all twisted versions of the truth of covenant love. Bill Gothard, who went out of his way for more than 35 years to win the hearts of young ladies while teaching all to not give their hearts away, should be ignored. Jesus who gave His heart to everyone, without becoming enslaved by anyone, should be followed.
If a single person loves another with that other's best as the goal, they will not hurt them, abuse them, take advantage of them, expect anything in return or have any reason to regret. "Guarding your heart" however can become avoiding all risk which means avoiding love. I Cor. 13 is the answer. "Love never seeks its own." If my goal is to protect my heart, I am seeking my own.
Thank you, Don. That was beautifully put!
It sounds like you were raised with an extreme view of purity. Or maybe I should say a "legalistic" view. I have found "guarding your heart" to be very scriptural (Proverbs 4!) for your heart "is the wellspring of life". I did not guard my heart and nearly ended up married to an abusive, manipulative, drinker (no, he did not present himself as such while we dated, but my wise parents knew that something was not right and prayed me out of that relationship)--all because one of those "crushes" gave me attention back.
I agree that it can be taken to extremes. I know of one family whose 21yo daughter will be staying 'on the farm' and 'under her father's protective covering' until she marries. But since they go no where and see no one and dress her like she's 40 . . .
I'm sorry that you were raised in such a legalistic setting and not under the grace of who God really is.
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#3 Is exactly me! I have never heard anyone say this before. I do the same thing and I hate it! I also love the point about Pride, so true. I love this. I feel there is so many teachings I had clung to that have damaged me in my adult christian life. Thanks so sharing.
This is one woman's opinion (and she's talking as if the whole world agrees with her) and I disagree with it. When I guard my heart it is not out of fear of anything. It is out of respect for my future husband and out of respect for God. I have given my life to God, and I treat my body and my life likewise. Through the grace of God I don't have pride about this. I don't have shame about this at all! If you are "determined to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" (1 Cor 2:2), everything else will fall into place. The whole emotional, physical purity and courtship deal is definitely more glorifying to God than any other way I've seen it done, and what is our goal in life? To get what we want now, or to submit our lives to JESUS so that He can take care of it, and to glorify God through body and spirit in everything we do?
I noticed no references to scripture and no references to Bill Gothard's work in here. I don't agree with all of Gothard's stuff, but it has helped a lot of people more than it has harmed anybody. ATI/IBLP was founded for people who are already well grounded in the gospel to be used as a tool to learn character, ect. It wasn't to be used as a formula or a way to get to heaven or anything crazy like that!
If you have truly given your life to Christ, your life should be about HIM. It's not even your life, really! It's His. Do and say what glorifies God.
"Everything else will fall into place"?? Pray tell, which "everything else" are we referring to, here? How so?
It's perfectly fine to disagree. I disagreed when I was a teenager and knew how life was supposed to work too. But life didn't follow my rules, the rules I thought were God's rules, and I learned that the formulas I had held so dearly were only man-made and couldn't fulfill the things they promised. I hope you don't learn the hard way, as I and hundreds of others had to, that the life promised by the courtship advocates is in no way guaranteed by God. If you think I am alone in my thoughts, I'd encourage to read this post, which is just a small sample of the literally thousands of comments and e-mails I have received by people who have been there done that:
http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
For me, "submitting my life to Jesus" and "giving my life over to Christ" meant rebelling against all these teachings, turning my back on everything I thought was right. Sometimes what we think is "submission to God" is actually submission to man and man's ideas which end up leading us further away from God.
You said, "I noticed no references to scripture and no references to Bill Gothard's work in here. I don't agree with all of Gothard's stuff, but it has helped a lot of people more than it has harmed anybody."
Please read the other painful articles on this website, and the hundreds of commenters saying that they shared the experience, and then get back with me if you still believe ATI has done more good than harm.
And I must disagree with you about it being founded for those who are well grounded in the gospel. I have noticed that the people who ARE well grounded in Gospel, have rejected ATI, and that the people who fall into it, are new Christians, or Christians that have been 'so so' Christians for years, and aren't very deep in the Word. (The latter were my parents.) ATI is very attractive to those who feel the need to be controlling and masochistic, it gives them an excuse to exercise their 'God given authority' status in the most abusive way possible.. I and two of my other siblings became suicidal over the awful experiences we endured, which stemmed directly from ATI. I have observed almost every single ATI family I've ever known, also experience nearly the same types of abusive, graceless situations.
This is a tragic article filled with bitterness, resentment and rebellion. The author throws the baby out with the bath water. Courtship and emotional purity can be taken to bizarre extremes, but on the whole, they are a far better system than dating. Out of my group of four girlfriends from high school, all of whom dated, one is divorced, another had a child out of wedlock, one contracted an STD, and in my case, I had an abortion. This is why many of the parents raised in the 60's and 70's have rejected dating for courtship. We have seen the havoc it creates.
I know Darcy personally, and I can assure you, she is not filled with bitterness, resentment, and rebellion. Strong woman, yes. The other, no. I often come to her for advice, even though she is many years younger than myself. I have nothing but respect for her.
You fault someone for using the extremes to critique courtship - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater you say. Then you turn around and use extremes to critique dating. So to you I say "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". And "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." Oh, and "Don't be bitter."
I can take serious respect the comments about this article which wish it were more even handed in its critique of courtship. But to label it as bitter and fallacious...and then turn around and use the exact same sort of reasoning in the opposite direction is just silly.
Out of my group of friends who followed the courtship model I'd say that the divorce rate is higher than the American norm of 50%. But oh, how can that be? Because the "courtship model" FAILS to adequately prepare you to deal with members of the opposite sex. And not just courtship, but the upbringing in ATI or other legalistic cultures where it is basically "verboten" to develop friendships with the other gender for fear of "giving away pieces of ones heart." Where making vow, upon vow is encouraged - with no thought of explanations and serious consequences And trust me, there are many. (www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/03/the-cost-of-a-vow/) When you have a myriad number of young adults in their twenties and thirties struggling with sometimes even the basic concepts of interaction between men and women. No... THAT is the tragedy.
Why is the divorce rate among courtship so bad you ask? Because of these very "concepts" that are touted to be a way of life, but are actually binding in life. Just because a man (or woman) "looks" good on paper, and answers all of your check marks, does not necessarily mean anything. The natural, God-given intuition of a person's soul is squelched in an effort to maintain a semblance of supposed "Godliness". Forming relationships with others GIVES you that ability of discernment. Not some vow or concept. Jesus did not sequester himself from people, therefore why should we?
Jesus said "whoever causes the downfall of one of these little ones who believe in Me - it would be better for him if a heavy millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matthew 18:6) What interests me the most in that scripture, besides its obvious warning, is backing up to verse one. It says, "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" I can surely tell you that it's not the people who keep the most rules or adhere to the most vows. Rather it is those who become like children. We are not born with legalism - it is learned.
Some of the newer revisions of the courtship books (like "Boy Meets Girl") are edited to remove certain stories that have now ended in divorce.
Isn't that just lovely. LOL
Say it ain't so? Doesn't surprise me ONE bit.
Just because dating failed the four of you doesn't make courtship the answer to save us all from the same fate.
That's the problem here. Parents shoved another failed idea down our throats because what they did didn't work for them. They failed to see that it was an idea, an experiment, that was bound to not work either.
There are so many more things that can and do go wrong with courtship than dating. I am surprised at parents for choosing this for their kids.
Mrs. P May, I see bitterness, resentment and rebellion in your statement here. But I will say how. Because you feel that you weren't protected from your own self with the prized "courtship" method. Listen honey, it wouldn't have given you the lack of abortion that you crave right now. Only Jesus can do that.
Wow I loved that! So painfully true.
Wow! This article is wonderfully good...I can't tell you how much it frustrates me to see this happening. I just want to speak from the other side, of the more extreme scary negative effects this kind of teaching can cause for teens in our generation. My parents were the best. I dont say anything else. But this was taught in our family and our church. Flirting was BAD, having a boyfriend or dating was not God's plan, so on and so forth. I was 17 before I admitted to liking a boy, and him feeling that way about me. We weren't allowed to hug, or hold hands, and it frustrated me to no end. I felt guilty if and when we did so. My brother and I along with his family and other friends visited hawaii that year and we kissed for the first time. My parents heard and flipped a lid. I was made to feel wrong, awful, for months afterward. We broke up shortly after. Everyone making me feel so small and like such a sinner and everything cause me to rebel against it all. Everything. I flew into a pattern over the next two years you wouldn't believe. I lost everything, my virginity, then I began dating other none believing men that scarred me. I has not one, but two miscarriages. I tried to push away the pain with alcohol, weed, ecstacy, mushrooms, cigarettes, boys, and moving far away from my family before I was 19. I had extreme anxiety attacks every night, and ended up in the ER more than once. Now, I'm almost 19 and a half and am struggling to make my way back to God, to give up this lifestyle, but I will never teach my children when I do have them that way. I don't blame it all on these kind of teachings, I know I made my own choices, but this kind of judgement had a hand. I am now in a loving relationship, have given up drugs, smoking, and alcohol, and am going back to a church that is working with me on my own level. What a blessing. I know God is there and loves me and wants me back, and my parents have come out of those teachings and things are better. Am I emotionally scarred from those boys? Yes. Do they have parts of my heart? No. My heart is God's, my heart belongs to my wonderful, loving boyfriend who I'm going to marry someday. I'm not close to where I want to be with God, I still mess up, but I'm getting better. What these teachings can do is scary, the last years of my life are a testimony to that. Please beware.
Thank you for sharing that. What Josh Harris taught screwed up dating for an entire generation of young Christians. I think he and every other leader who taught it owe us an apology.
WOW..."for an entire generation" Who knew he was so powerful!!!
So... this article just started going super viral on facebook in the homeschool community...
I wonder if that's why there have been two dozen comments in the last 1/2 - 1 day.
Lol... That explains all the activity...
Knowing how much Satan wants to take down believers(1 Peter 5:8), we should be very cautious in how we live out: 1 Corinthians 8:13, Romans 14:13 through our lives. Especially knowing how sinful creatures we are. I know plenty of people, who "fell in love" and "fell in sex", great Godly brothers and sisters, now there wives and husbands reap the consequences of their actions... Satan is sly and we underestimate Him so often. We are in a war, and should know the enemy and where he will attack.
Did you know that premarital sex is not the worst trap one can fall into? No, I don't recommend it, but I think the bondage of the opposite extreme, is far worse.
Thank you. My parents fall back line is, 'what if you get pregnant!" not, 'what if you go on a psychotic rampage and shoot up a mall', or even, 'what if you get pregnant, and out of the terrifying fear of how I'll react, have an abortion to hide it!" There are worse things, with worse consequences than premarital sex, although it is absolutely a wrong and devastating thing, and I do NOT condone it. Neither will I judge someone who fell in that area, that's between them and God.
The bible teaches in 1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband
1 corinthians 7:8-9 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Dating vs. courtship misses the real issues. My wife and I did what godly dating/courtship/dortship. We laugh about it a lot because we seriously do not know what to call it. We married both virgins. However, we could not classify it courtship by many of the standards enthroned in that system.
To be blunt, neither legalism nor licenteousness hit the mark. Whether veering off the road on either side doesn't matter if we're leaving the road!
What matters is that we remain ON the road of righteousness of Christ! We struggle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces and powers.
Israel was promised that when they would forsake false ways under duress brought on by God and when they would cry out to God, He would guide them step by step.
Isaiah 30:21 "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."
We have this same promise fulfilled to us in the provision by Jesus of the Holy Spirit. We do not need systems filled with baggage to solve this problem. We also to not need to out-fox the devil. We need to constantly listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Well stated Sam.
Although the author mentions God in this article, i don't believe very much of it can be backed by scripture. It seems to be in response to a very sckewed/cultic view or courtship. What I've learned from the Joshua Harris and Ludy books center on honoring God as well as my brothers. I haven't learned to bottle up my emotion, I haven't learned that I should never have a crush. I've learned that God is in control of even our crushes and everything must be put into control. Boundaries are not formulas that God doesn't like, the Word is full of "if you do this, then this will happen" God gave those formulas....I'm sorry, but I see ignorance of the Word.
Does the Bible command that relationships be conducted in a certain manner, though, or x consequence will happen?
Of course it does! Wait.... Maybe that was the incorrect, universal cause/effect teaching of IBLP that we elevated to the level of Scriptural authority!
I find this blog really sad in a day when holiness (e.g. being set apart from ways of the world that are self-centered instead of God-centered) is so hard to maintain...it's hard enough to keep 'every thought captive' (2 Cor. 10:5) when the world is screaming at you from every angle to 'follow your heart' and every selfish whim, but to have such teaching coming from within the body of Christ is devastating. To go beyond that and brashly criticize and mock those who are willing to speak out about culture-defying purity is...well, all I can say is every one will have to take account for their words and actions before our Maker one day.
I agree, legalism is not the Lord's way. But Pharisaical legalism is not setting high standards and strict boundaries-- it's teaching or believing that salvation comes through those means. Followers of the Lord strive for holiness not because it makes them better than other people or better before God, but because God calls us to 'be holy, as he is holy' (1 Peter 1:16). And again, 'be holy; without holiness, no one will see the Lord' (Heb. 12:14). Jesus himself said that 'If you love me, keep my commands' (John 14:15, 21, 15:10). And again,'In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.' (1 John 5:3-4). Is God being legalistic? Is he leading us into shame, pride, unhealthy relationships and formulaic living? Absolutely not. This is where true freedom is found.
I understand that some people have lived under the heavy burden of legalistic teaching, which is suffocating and damaging. But grace is not a license to allow your mind to wander or to set lower standards because it's less strenuous. True freedom lies in having the desire to obey the commands which you're given, and when you live in that freedom, it is a not a burden but a joy to take whatever means necessary to keep those commands in their fullest measure.
I agree with C.S. Lewis' quote, but I'm pretty confident he wouldn't agree with the argument made preceding it. God never commands us not to love and be vulnerable, quite the opposite. But how can we love if we don't love God first, and how can we love God unless we obey his commands (which include taking every thought captive, guarding our heart, not even so much at looking at another with lust unless they are our spouse, etc.)?
If the author was recommending people flinging their hearts to all and sundry, and having premarital/extramarital sex, I would agree with you. However she is speaking against man's law, and man's judgement here. She's not recommending you to be careless.
Personally, I think this article is an example of someone who was influenced by a family that tried to the right thing the wrong way. My youth pastor taught me the benefits of courtship and emotional purty and it helped me to avoid alot of dumb decisions and people along the way, all the while developing godly relationships that were grounded in love.
I've read Harris' books and I don't feel that the author is reading them with the correct framework in mind. Every book of Harris' is about love. Loving God first, your family, your friends around you, etc. Surely anyone can say that they believe anything and do it the wrong way (ie. someone reading "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and claiming that they now believe that girls should always wear burkha's), and that's what i think this article is. Somewhat of a kneejerk reaction to an upbringing that had every good intention in mind, but maybe executed it poorly or inconsistently.
I've seen COUNTLESS students completely throw their lives in the gutter because they were foolishly emotionally attached to a person (in a dating type of way) of the opposite sex too soon in their life, before they were able to make decisions that would bring committment into the relationship. And the whole time they were doing it they were saying that they "loved" this person. When in actuallity, they were the ones who were in fear of not ever having a mate to marry in life (a legitimate fear, but a fear nonetheless) and instead of doing loving things for the betterment of this person that they "loved", they were doing selfish things that were only desiring this person to be had in their lives. So many students think they NEED to fill their life RIGHT NOW with a "serious" relationship with the opposite sex, when in reality they need to first be secure in their relationship with the Savior who will never fail them or let them down.
I will pass on courtship/emotional purity teachings to my students/children because those teachings taught me to love, not fear. And I want the same for them.
"Personally, I think this article is an example of someone who was influenced by a family that tried to the right thing the wrong way."
You just described every article on this website. Good intentions, bad actions, worse consequences. Good intentions do not justify wrong-doing. If I hurt my daughter while having good intentions, I've still hurt her and need to apologize and make it right. I don't get a free pass just because my intentions were good.
Guarding your heart isn't BAD like you are saying... if you DONT then all you are teaching... in essence... is divorce to your children. If you teach them that dating Bobby for two weeks.. then dumping him because his toenails turn pink.. and immediately start dating Jimmy for 3 days.. then dumping him for Steve is 'all a natural part of understanding what a healthy relationship is about'.... YOU'RE the one who needs a mind check. All that does is teach your children that as soon as they are tired of one boy.. or girl (if your child is a son) to trade it in for a newer better moto. Yeah.. good article. not.
Alrighty then. I give up. I'll just teach my kids to sleep around and that marriage doesn't mean anything and they can throw out partners like old rags. Since I threw out the courtship teachings, that's my only other option, I guess. Lawlessness and promiscuity. Have at it, kids.
/sarcasm
I fail to see where she is saying any of this in her article, but if that's what you want to make out of it, alrighty then..
You definitely were taught a skewed view of relationships. Our old church taught a lot of wacky stuff too. Balance is the key though. Everything in moderation. There are a lot of good reasons to teach your kids that crushes are totally normal, but self-control should be practiced (not practiced much in junior highers). Balance. From my perspective (kids almost all grown and out of the house) my only goal was to teach my kids that you shouldn't sleep with people before you're married. There are emotional and irreversible consequences to that. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not everything you were taught was emphatically wrong.
Well, "don't sleep around" is certainly a far cry from "don't ever look at a guy twice or have a crush on someone or your life will be ruined". lol So it sounds like you did just fine. I certainly never said "now everyone go sleep around!" did I?
I'd encourage you to go read the conclusion of my series:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/emotional-purity-and-courtship-a-conclusion/
I agree that it could be possibly harmful for a girl who was raised in a godly home and doesn't have her heart hardened by the world already. I however have had a very different experience and through Joshua Harris God spoke freedom to me. I don't think it's fair to judge his revelation about purity just because it isn't right for you. I think purity is a beautiful thing and I am so thankful for the way Mr Harris presented it. It helped me understand how I should be seen as a Godly woman and I may not take everything word by word but it definitely gives me a good outline of the standards I should have
After reading most of the comments, I don't know how significant this one will be. You have valid points, but this post is throwing the baby out with the bath water. If you are going to condemn an idea, address the idea itself and not someone else’s teaching of it. Please bear with me as I explain.
First, the ideas of courtship and emotional purity cause shame.
I would like to know who taught this kind of courtship, because I have read both Mr. Ludy's book (God's gift to women) and Josh Harris' book (I kissed dating goodbye) and that idea (the idea that failing a standard you set is shameful) did not come across to me in either book. As for leaving a piece of your heart with everyone you've loved... They were not referring family, friends and already married couples as the example you used did. They were talking about couples in the making which is a different relationship all together.
You are right when you suggest that shame is unhealthy. If standards in courting bring shame, however, that does not mean that there is something wrong with the standards. That is like saying that there is something wrong with a law because it causes someone to feel guilty. Shame is a human response. Courting has standards to bring about conviction: The conviction, that I, as a guy, should keep my hands off, and honor woman as God has created her to be honored. Cue standards. I should hope that we feel convicted when we encroach upon that honor. But shame? No; Shame is a response we inflict upon ourselves whereas conviction is something God inflicts upon those He loves.
As for "pieces of the heart" idea, you really must clarify your argument. I can tell you heart wrenching stories about girls who were ripped apart by a trail of broken relationships. The more love they gave, the more they had invested in that relationship, and when that relationship went under, so did their investment. The example of the relationships between you and your children, husband, and friends is valid, but cannot be cross applied to couples who are thinking of marriage. Marriage/Friendship/Children are a finished product relationships and love does thrive and multiply in those... given that they stay intact and the standards are held to. But what if you were tragically divorced? One of your children died? A friend stabbed you in the back? Within a whole family, a functional friendship and a Christ centered Marriage, love does behave in that manner. But Eric and Josh were referring to relationships in the making. These relationships have potential to break apart in an unhealthy manner.
Second, Courtship and Emotional purity cause pride.
Once again, who purports this view of courtship? This is the first I have read that suggest that we are entitled to pride because we have never even had a crush on someone of the opposite sex. As much as I dislike saying it: This post is grossly exaggerating and taking the extreme on courting. Pride is a human problem, not a problem with set standards. Pride is a response, not an unavoidable end result, just like shame. Pharisees were prideful, not the Ten Commandments. Eric, Josh and I are not prideful, just the people who think they know it all about courting and take it out of context.
As for the guy who didn't tell his wife he loved her until their wedding day, I am sorry you had the misfortune of seeing that. That is quite disgusting. Josh agreed that this is harmful in his book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.”
Third, the ideas of courtship and emotional purity create skewed views of relationships which lead to dysfunction.
The courting, which you have been describing, is most definitely destructive. But... What you have been describing is not courtship or emotional purity according to Josh or Eric or even what I have heard. Please let me sincerely apologize to you, because it is most definitely not what Courting or emotional purity are! I will emphasize again what I said earlier: Courting and Emotional purity are ideas, just like cooperation and competition, popular sovereignty and Individual rights. The ideas themselves are not inherently evil (as has come across to me in this article) OUR response is what determines whether they become destructive. You have a story and legitimate concerns, but you are taking them out on the wrong object. I have innocent relationships with girls I know, and thanks to God's guidance, Great parental advice, Godly friends, which I have come to know as the essence of courting, I have been able to keep it that way.
Fourth, the ideas of courtship and emotional purity deceive us into thinking that living by formulas is 'safe'.
I can see how the kind of misconstrued courtship you have been writing about would definitely do this. But your post is throwing out the baby with bath water by condemning courtship as a whole. Courtship is not bad. As I know it, Courtship has standards that are meant to glorify God and keep the couple accountable to friends and family and safe from judgment impaired by emotions. Courtship, as described by Eric and Josh is dating with a purpose, accompanied by wisdom and patience. Perhaps you would rather have dating? I certainly wouldn't.
Whoever has been teaching this skewed idea of courtship should definitely be stopped. But please reconsider your post. You are right to rant about a skewed teaching, but in doing so, be careful not to condemn the topic being skewed. Courtship, as I know it, is a wise approach to a wild emotion and has Biblical qualities.
Courtship is not meant to lock away the heart in a tomb of insensibility. It is to make it vulnerable in such a way that its vulnerability will be respected.
What is your response?
If you actually care about my responses, I have already responded to every single objection you raised in the many comments on this post and in my blog. So have many other people. The article was written a year ago and has been hashed and re-hashed. You are welcome to read the comments for my responses to your objections (which have been repeated about a dozen times), and also to read parts 2 and 3 in this series on my blog:
http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
and http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/emotional-purity-and-courtship-a-conclusion/
Okay, who *did* give us these extreme ideas about courtship, if Ludy and Harris didn't? (And I have never read Ludy, so I won't begin to comment on his ideas)
Sir, if you will look up into the left-hand corner of this page, you will see the tagline, "A Gothard Generation..." This refers to the man who founded IBLP and ATI, Bill Gothard. This is the man who gave us a mishmash of courtship ideas, blended together with a generous dose of extremism. This site is dedicated to exposing the teachings of this man.
If you were a homeschooler or in other Christian circles, and NOT influenced by the teachings of this man... maybe this article isn't even directed towards you?
As Hannah kindly pointed out, we are the GOTHARD generation. My head was already messed up from Gothard years before Harris ever came on the scene. Harris didn't particularly damage me, the damage had already been done, and I don't remember whether I ever read the whole book or not anyway.. From everything I can see, Gothard is more extreme than Harris, and THAT is what we are trying to expose, telling people why GOTHARD'S principles and ideas didn't work.
Wow . . . I'm surprised by the tenor of a lot of the comments here. For folks that seem bent on holding to higher standards, there seems to be a lot of vitrol.
Scripture is not explicit on how we are to form attachments with our mates in that nowhere does it say, "Thou shalt not date" or "Court and be holy." So really, all you're left with is biblical principles that you can extrapolate and observe as you seek to honor the Lord. But drawing some line in the sand that posits courtship is the way to do that and dating is not, is silly.
I know people who courted and yet still succumbed to temptation, having intercourse before marriage. I know others that dated and did not. I know marriages that thrive today, though the couple dated and I know of folks who courted and did it the "right" way and today are divorced.
In my personal opinion, motives are of so much more importance than form. I would rather my children date with pure motives, than simply commit to courtship with the expectation that it will save them from heartache. I did (commit to courtship) and it didn't (save me from heartache).
While it's been a long time since I read this article, but keep in mind that the focus of this blog is calling into question things that were taught by Bill Gothard/IBLP (which may or may not have been unique to that organization). Courtship was not only taught by Gothard but it was taught by Gothard as the ONLY acceptable choice for a Christian.
While you may not care for Darcy's opinion, or for her style, I do hope that you could at least CRITICALLY examine that teaching (i.e., the one that would suggest that courtship is "God's way". It might be. It might not.
For me, that critical examination came when I hit rock bottom because I didn't receive all of God's "richest blessings" even though I made every commitment that Gothard promised would deliver them. It was in that heartache despair that I found a different God than the one I had learned about in IBLP. The One who got more glory by redeeming the things I messed up, than by the things I did "for" Him, the standards I held to, etc.
My wife and I just celebrated our 12th anniversary. I think the longevity of our marriage has everything to do with the mercy of God and nothing to do with the fact that we courted, kept ourselves pure, and saved our first kiss for our wedding. Not that those are bad things, but nor are they a surety for a long and happy marriage.
"motives are of so much more importance than form. I would rather my children date with pure motives, than simply commit to courtship with the expectation that it will save them from heartache"
This statement is so well said. It's exactly the example I want to set for my own children. In my mind there is nothing wrong with dating. Dating does not equal sex, heartbreak, emotional promiscuity and other things aforementioned. Dating and courtship are what you make of them. Like someone said before, you can be a angelic-dater or a hellish-courter. It is completely up to an individual if they want to court or date but if it were up to me I would just call it dating. The idea of courtship seems to be hindered with so many rules. Not even biblical rules so much as rules passed down from generations such as the BG generation. I know there are people who are so-called "extreme daters" who change partners every few weeks or so but this isn't the type of dating I would condone for my own children. Dating, just like anything else we hope to do throughout our lives should be Christ centered. If God is who we are trying to please and not ourselves, our parents or anyone else, then all the problems that are said to arise out of dating will hopefully be nonexistent.
It's all in where the heart is.
I agree with a few things you have to say. However, you are very wrong on this:
"You are considered damaged goods if you have fallen in love and had your heart broken. It was Josh Harris in I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the Ludy’s in several of their books that popularized the idea that everytime you fall in love or get “emotionally attached” to someone, you give away a piece of your heart. The more pieces you give away, the less of your heart you have to give to your spouse someday. Harris even went so far as to say that each of those former flames actually have some sort of hold on you. This has got to be the most bogus and the most damaging teaching of this entire movement. Love doesn’t work that way. The more you give, the more you have. My third child doesn’t have less of my heart just because I’ve loved two other children before him. And, really, I haven’t given them “pieces” of my heart. I’ve given them each all of my heart. The miracle of love is that it multiplies by being given."
First of all, I DO NOT believe you are damaged goods for giving away your heart in such a way that shows agape love to people. But when you compare giving pieces of you heart to your children and your spouse you are mixing up two completely different types of love. The love you have for your spouse is different than that of your child. Also, these kind of books are meant to counter the thought that sex is love. Well sex is a part of love it is not close to being the entire definition of love. The authors of such purity books mean that by giving your heart in pieces by things such as sex you will have a harder time loving your future spouse. Which is true, because you give people part of your deep self when you have sex with them. Also, it is not good to stir up love until you are ready to marry.
So romantic love is the only type of love in the whole world that shrinks when you give it instead of multiplies? Care to prove that by logic or scripture? Otherwise it is only your opinion, which you are entitled to, but you won't do much convincing other people of.
so basically anyone that is widowed is incapable of loving their new spouse just as much, if not more than their old one? (assuming the widowed has had enough time to heal from their loss, etc..) guess we're all screwed if we're widowed.
The point of this entire site, Mrs P, is that we are saved by grace, and we live by grace found in a relationship with Jesus Christ. We do not depend on man-made formulas--we depend on Christ and Christ alone. The author is talking about how trying a cookie-cutter formula resulted in heartbreak when it was promised that the recipe would yield "God's best". Please take a look at the rest of the site to see what the purpose is here. I pray that God would lead us in His ways and free us from man-made "formulas" and "principles" that are like those rain clouds that never rain on dry and thirsty lives.
Interesting. I went to public school, but always wanted to be home schooled. A lot of my friends were home schooled. My parents dated, my brother dated, I was raised in a "dating" family. But at 23 I've never dated to the confusion of more people than I can count. I had a lot classmates ask me if I was gay, not because I wasn't interested in boys, but because I didn't date. It drove my mother crazy and still does. When Mom asked me about dating I'd say that I wasn't ready to get married and she'd respond with "What has that got to do with anything?!"
Dating or courting, to me the point is finding the person God intended for me. I'm not saying you have to wait until you're ready to get married to start a relationship, but in high school I wasn't emotionally ready and some part of me realized that. Also, while there were boys I liked and thought were cute, I knew that I didn't want to marry them so what was the point of being anything more than friends?
I can't say that dating is wrong and I can't say that courting is. There are things I like about both systems so I think the best thing is to combine those things, trust in God, and muddle through.
That's a good point Megan. Long before I ever heard of courtship, I was challenged to never date someone I could not see myself marrying. In other words, if you would never consider marrying the person, why date them in the first place?
Obviously that mentality isn't problem-free either, but I always appreciated the purposefulness of it. In my mind, though, viewing relationships that way is a much healthier mindset than what we were taught about courtship within ATI where too much control was given to the parents and little if any given to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Rather we were taught that unless both sets of parents were heartily in favor of the marriage, the Holy Spirit could not be leading you into it. We were also promised that doing it this way would spare us friction with in-laws after the marriage because we'd honored them this way (which didn't happen either).
I'd like to go on record as saying that I couldn't currently be more happy in my marriage, and that I'm not at all sorry I "followed my heart" on this one. Oh, that wasn't the only factor in my decision-making. Of course I sought to be wise, I sought counsel from godly mentors that I trusted, I prayed a LOT... and yes, I made the conscious decision both to date, and to cut my parents out of the decision-making. Reasons included: seeing how courtship did not give adequate opportunity to get to know the other person, as well as the fact that my parents had proven themselves untrustworthy in previously handling the reins of my life. I realized this was my decision to make, and no one else's. I was the one who had to live with the decision, not anyone else. Could it still go south? Sure, only time will tell. But we've been together for seven years and married for two, and so far, my life is much richer for the person that I share it with. God does give us the desires of our heart, and nothing wrong with pursuing that in a way that does not dishonor God.
So, let me be a voice for true, spontaneous, heart-stopping, cartwheel-turning, romantic love! Follow your heart.
Thank you! Yes, I'm the one who has to live with whoever I marry, I need to know WHO they really are, and I need to make the final decision! Can I live with this person? No? Ok, bye bye! (I'm happily married, and I did NOT court. Actually, on a side note, my mom told me that God was not going to bless my marriage because the music I'd picked for my wedding weren't hymns, or otherwise specifically Christian tunes. Bizzare, eh? I wanted to tell her that clearly she hadn't used Christian music in her wedding.. but I refrained.)
Thank you for sharing this. Totally and completely rings true with me!
I've thought about writing a book on this subject. I know many people with similar thoughts, but I wasn't sure if we were the only ones! Interesting that there are so many. Thank you for sharing.
I have many materials collected to write a book on the subject. But life has gotten in the way for now. Maybe in the future....;)
Maybe co-author one?
Excellently and succinctly put. I too suffered from indoctrination about purity and courtship as a child, and I certainly still struggle with a lot of guilt and confusion in having normal, balanced relationships. Other publications and propaganda to beware of: The Christy Miller Series by Robin Jones Gunn (put out by Focus on the Family) and Just Like Ice Cream by Lissa Halls Johnson. Both fling unrealistic depictions of sex, relationships, and standards at young girls. They tell them that if they ever love someone who leaves them, or ever sin physically, they are forever broken and damaged. Pray for our teenagers who struggle with guilt!
"He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone." -John 8:7
This is a great article. I was never brought up with these "biblical" principles and still managed to remain pure until marriage. I had my heart broken once, and it hasn't made me less connected to my spouse. It scares me to think that people think it is right or laudable for someone to make it to the altar without ever hearing that their future spouse loves them. Being committed is hugely important, but without love (or the assurance of it) a marriage would be pretty hollow. I am also bothered that by requiring our kids to never say they love someone or kiss before marriage means that if they do, they're more likely to push ahead with a marriage that isn't right, simply because they can't take back their first "I love you" or first kiss. It is possible to live up to God's standard of moral purity without this indoctrination, or these principles and praise God, there is grace and forgiveness for when we stumble.
thank you for that article. I am 57 years old and did not live a chaste life before marriage. I was taught that this was a sin and shameful to have sex before marriage, not to mention the humility it would cause my mom, mostly. I wish she would have told me that it would break God's heart.She never knew. I understand now how it grieves God and the Holy Spirit. It has taken me years to get rid of the shame that it caused me but am stronger for it and realize how much God still loves me no matter what I did.
I think you were taught the extreme of emotional purity. We are told in scripture to guard our hearts. We are not told to not flirt, or to never like a guy. Unfortunately I think someone, I'm sure with your best interest at heart, took these teachings to the extreme to try to control you. Perhaps a person could become proud of their obedience to scripture, but that does not give excuse to be disobedient just so that we may not become proud. I hope that my children will guard their hearts, not to a technicality, but in a way that is choosy to whom they let in to their most intimate places, knowing the delicacy of hearts. However, it's important to remember that the love shared between friends, parents and children, and siblings is different than the love shared between spouses. I believe the emotional purity movement as your call it, is about being wise with the heart God has given us and doing our best to respect ourselves in the midst of dating, it's not about never loving nor even liking a person. Extremes can be dangerous.
Not the extreme - merely the logical conclusion. Why do I say this? Because Joshua Harris noticed the same tendencies among the teens in his own church. Of all courtship promoters, Harris is one of the more moderate ones. Yet even under his pastorship, the end result still tended toward this "extreme".
In my brief skimming of these comments I have seen several accusations of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater." I suggest that this is exactly what has been done by the broad concept of courtship. Let me explain: regretful parents assume that their children will, as they once did, compromise their lives and/or potential in the process of finding a mate. It is, indeed, a permanent decision. But rather than teaching their children to listen carefully to the Holy Spirit, they hedge, protect, and smother this time with a fence of control. Those of us that have been through a parent-directed courtship are standing here before you, testifying that this "method" will prove every bit as detrimental and be every bit as likely to end in divorce. If I went today and took a job suggested by my dad I am *sure* it would lead to failure eventually. Not because my dad is a bad person or doesn't genuinely want the best for me, but because I deemed his counsel more valuable than the voice of the Holy Spirit. The courtship movement has thrown out the idea of young adults listening and following the Lord because they cannot believe His voice will be heard above the din of hormones, and because they refuse to believe that God is sovereign and will use our choices, whatever they may be, for His glory.
Exactly, Dawn! One of the biggest problems I see with the courtship system is that it's not training young people to listen to the Holy Spirit and trust HIS guidance--only the guidance of their parents. Can both coincide into the same guidance? Absolutely! But it's not an automatic, and should never be assumed to be an automatic that your parents' voice equals that of the Holy Spirit. At what point in time can children who are raised to love the Lord actually be trusted to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit if they can't be trusted enough to hear His guidance in choosing a spouse?
I grew up under Gothard's courtship method (which is WAY more extreme than the average view of courtship in most churches), but by the age of 27, I listened to the leading of the Holy Spirit and entered into a dating relationship with a godly man without the prior permission of my parents or sending him to request permission of them (he was in his 30's). I was still living at home at the time, so I simply went home and informed them that this young man had asked me out to dinner, and I had accepted. I knew in my heart that this was God's leading, and while I also knew my parents would love him, it was not ultimately their decision whether I should accept this dinner date. I had prayed about it for two weeks and felt strongly led by the Lord. My parents DID end up loving this young man, and we have now been happily married for over seven years. In many ways, I don't attribute our happy marriage to either courtship OR dating--but simply to following the leading of the Holy Spirit and being willing to risk a relationship that looked different than how I had been raised to think it would look.
Beverly, your posts are always so full of wisdom. I appreciate your brief testimony of your "dateship" My wife also had to step out on faith.
EXACTLY! Thank you! My dad always said no kissing because kissing lead to hands moving, and once hands start moving, the guy CAN'T stop them. I always wondered if that had been his experience. My husband had such self control, I was literally amazed. I had no idea a male could control his desires so well.
As a male homeschooler-turned-college-student, I couldn't agree more with this! In my first year of college (just finished my third), I entered my first relationship. It started out great, ended horribly. Gave into her pressures, she cheated on me with an ex-boyfriend within a few months, and during that next summer I found out she was falling for a guy from her hometown. I ended up transferring to a school back home for academic reasons, but it took two years to get over that "Too damaged for the right girl to want me" feeling. Honestly, I even stayed in the relationship for much longer than I should have because I started to feel like it was the only shot left now and I just had to "make it work".
I agree that friendship should precede relationship, since some of the issues I ran into could have been avoided with a few more months of friendship, but so much of the Christian world will spit in your face if you even mention dating sooner than decades into a friendship. Heck, even the word "dating" insights a riot in my experience. I never went to a religious leader to ask for advice on my relationship, and it took about a year and some major prodding by a very good female friend of mine before I opened up to her, because I knew all I would get, especially as a male, was a lot of "How dare you" stares. I even stopped going to church over it (which is easy to do, considering how pathetic a lot of the Christians are in my current city, which is also where I grew up. Too much political infighting to the point where you don't know who to trust.).
You're right, this is a HUGE issue. The people who scream the loudest are doing it to bring "low pressure relationships" to everyone, and yet honestly I've always felt like I've been in a pressure cooker when I started to crush on a girl. It really doesn't help, only makes it worse. I avoid listening to the church when it comes to relationships and marriage these days. I'm glad to read of someone else who thinks the same way!
Thank you Darcy for your boldness and courage in sharing! I really appreciate your heart for the Lord and for others.
I am SO blessed to have parents who RESPECT me. Even though I grew up under the teachings you mention, Daddy has always told me "Hey, I don't want the responsibility of choosing the guy YOU have to live with for the rest of your life!!!" :-)
I'm 17, I've gone to church and been homeschooled my entire life, and I was always the anti-dating, pro-courtship, boys-are-bad kind of girl. Until a couple of months ago, when I realized I really really liked one of my best friends and he really really liked me. We've been dating for a couple months, and I still have the I Kissed Dating Goodbye-esque thoughts. God has blessed me abundantly through my boyfriend, He has taught me so much about love and sacrifice and relationships in the most simple and beautiful ways, but I still have to fight the voice in my head that tells me every time I look at him with admiration I'm in sin. Thank you for this post. I honestly have never heard a solid refutation for those types of books, but I've been aching for one for a while now. I've been afraid to love. While I'm still young and naive, God can still teach love to a rather awkward 17 year old girl who just graduated from homeschool. He's done bigger things before.
BF, I was 17 when I fell in love with my husband and everything I thought I knew about courtship and "God's Method" of finding a spouse went out the window. I think sometimes God likes to operate outside the boxes we've put Him in and show us He's so much bigger then any man-made method and formula. :) You can find my own story or wrestling with God over this here: http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/search/label/A%20Love%20Story
(scroll to the bottom of the page for Part 1)
I love this article :). This is from a guy's perspective. I think the best biblical evidence is in the verse 1 Timothy 5:1-2 "Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity."
So we are to treat younger women as sisters with all purity. How would you treat your sister? I talk, hug, hang out with, make eye contact with my sister all the time! I think the important thing is with our thoughts. I don't think "she's pretty" is a sin. I think taking that a step further and dwelling and meditating on her body is definitely a sin. I compliment my sister if she looks nice :). You can make a girl laugh innocently without it being labeled "flirting"! Furthermore I've found that encouraging girls in this way builds them up so much, and makes them stronger and more confident! In a society that tells girls they have to be sexually pleasing to the eye or be shunned, which is so dang messed up, it is good to make a girl feel beautiful. This can be done purely and without "leading them on". I have many girls who I am good friends with and they know that I'm not after them for anything more than a friendship! There is always a caution of course, but if you're truly seeking to follow the Lord He can and will guide you. If one of my friends (a girl) sticks out by her godly beauty, character, and a personality I'm attracted to :) I would want to get to know her better. That doesn't mean I'm jumping into a relationship or anything, but on a friend level getting to know a little more about them. Yes even coffee dates :P They say you're supposed to marry your best friend! How can you if you never even befriend a girl? If, after being friends for a time, I would think this is the person I would love to spend my life with and would build me up and I build her up, then "dating" or whatever would begin, however that is :P I don't think there's a formula either.
Anyway, that's just what I would like to do. I just want to show that the Bible does encourage meaningful relationships outside of "dating" or "courting". To me dating would be getting to know that person better, and then after we become good friends taking the next step. And of course God would be involved :). Mistakes may be made, the relationship might not work out, but God works all things together for the good of those who love Him. We make mistakes and we can LEARN from them. The biggest thing I think to watch out for is the mindset. The reason for the relationship. Is it cause the girl is really cute? Or is it because you admire her for the beautiful woman God has made her to be, personality, character and all? Purity at the thought level is important and definitely a struggle.
I hope some of my rambling thoughts make some sense :P corrections and thoughts welcomed! Note, I use "you" a lot. Not cause I'm talking to somebody directly, but cause that's how my thought process works!
Ben I completely agree with your comment. I personally was more comfortable hanging out with guys, because I had two brothers and many boy cousins. I have few female relatives that were my age and in my life. So I was always more comfortable with a masculine presence. Hanging out with "the guys" included teasing, picking on, laughing with, joking with--all the things that many girls in my church and youth group thought I was shameful and sinful for doing, because they themselves didn't know how to interact innocently and on a platonic level with the male counterparts in our youth group.
I never felt there was anything more to these friendships, than that they were just friendships...until college. When like you mentioned there was one particular guy who stuck out above the rest and was my best "male" friend. We had known each other over two years and while we never labeled our relationship as "dating" or "courting" by definition that was in fact what we were doing. Spending time getting to know one another on an even deeper level than friendship. Both of us had the intention of marriage in mind when we finished college. But somewhere along the way, he decided that I wasn't the woman he wanted to marry. So things ended and there was heartbreak. At the college I attended the few girls who I had as friends decided that was a good time to let me know how sinful I was for investing my heart to the man I thought I was going to marry (even though we were above reproach in our times if hanging out, never having physical contact--aside from hugs, no "I love you's", etc). I then was blamed and slandered to our mutual friends and everything ended up being my fault. So on top of a broken heart, came additional scorn and shame from 'friends' and a good reputation slandered. At the time I did not see the good God was working through that situation. It took the years since it has happened to heal from it. And in that healing I have found the grace of God, understanding of what love is, ability to forgive, and strength to love again.
Mistakes are indeed made...for to error is human. But through God anything is possible. Life means nothing if it is lived in fear.
As a believer i think it is CRUCIAL for us to evaluate what we have been taught versus what the Bible teaches. Many times in my walk with the Lord i have come face to face with what i thought was a biblical concept, being simply a church concept. When i was a teenager dating my now husband, i thought those books were "over-the-top" and personal conviction rather than theology. That being said, we live in a fallen world. Because we live in a fallen world we have to be aware of the traps of the enemy ( 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."). Although it may be permissible to be alone with someone of the opposite sex, it is not always profitable. Avoiding situations where they could be potential temptation (flee from temptation) is wise. Shouldn't we live lives above reproach? I agree that it is completely possible to be alone with someone of the opposite sex and it be completely harmless/pure, but again, is it profitable? Surely legalism is not good, but neither is being so foolish as to think that harmless flirting will never lead anywhere else, dare i say a slippery slope. I think the Bible is clear that shame is not the purpose as we know there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I guess my thoughts are getting it, shouldn't we be prepared, or as you put it "suspicious" of every potential situation for us to sin? As John Piper put it, "If you aren't at war with sin, then you aren't at home with Christ."
Our first and primary focus should not be on rejecting/fighting sin, it should be on staying one with Christ. There's a difference here. If you stay focused on affirming the positive (keeping our orientation toward Christ), it's far easier to stay on track than if you focus on rejecting the negative (keeping from sin). Rejecting the negative is important, but it's best done by affirming the positive.
As far as being alone with someone of the opposite sex, well, I think it's far more problematic that we view the simple status of "being alone with someone of the opposite sex" as problematic than the situation itself. Why do we imply that being alone is automatically wrong? Why do we teach our children that if they are alone with someone of the opposite sex, they will automatically get really horny? THERE'S your problem.
If I ring a bell and then feed you immediately afterward, pretty soon you will start salivating whenever I ring the bell. In the same way, if I tell you being alone with a person of the opposite sex will cause you to have sexual fantasies about that person, then you will have sexual fantasies about that person. Do you see? This is a concept that is not absolute truth-- it is only true if you believe it is true, and it is false if you do not believe it or have never heard of it.
If you really, really, really, want to teach your children about God's plan for sex, then DO JUST THAT. Tell them about how wonderful sex is inside marriage. Tell them how having sex with your marriage partner is incredibly bonding. Just talk about the good stuff.
Tell you what, go look up Donald Joy's book "Bonding" and read it. It talks about a lot more than sex. It fits sex within the framework of pair bonding, and pair bonding within the framework of human bonding. Because it explained sex in context, that book did far more to explain sex to me than anything else.
Getting back to being alone with someone of the opposite sex, context matters more than anything else. You can't make blanket statements about "being alone with one of the opposite sex", because not all situations are alike.
In high school, I had a very good friend of the opposite sex. It would have been difficult to have much of a friendship without some privacy, especially since we're both introverts. I can honestly say that my friendship with her was free from any sexual sin, and our friendship was very good, in large part because we had privacy.
FINALLY!
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Great article and I really agree. From the guys end it looks a little different coming out of that teaching right? What it really bore in me was the nature to be driven by fear instead of by faith in God. Yes, wisdom and teaching are important but we’re guided by it not driven by it. Interesting what you said about girls having a problem thinking boys are bad, and a girl’s heart staying unbroken is of utmost importance. Although it was never spoken to me, this is a mindset I could sense about many of the girls I was around growing up, and what made me so self-conscious and unwilling to put myself out there fear of being taken the wrong way. The fear of being misunderstood by girls seriously crippled my heart as a youth because I wanted to be a man of God, But when I fell head over heels for a couple girls, I didn't know how to proceed (because all the teaching I had was always about how to not fail not how to win), I would end up just stuffing everything inside and hide under it all being “God’s sovereign will” if nothing came out of it. I would argue this was just as crippling as a broken heart because I never got to see what could have been in those relationships. What I’ve learned is good little boys stay good little boys if they’re driven by fear of messing up or fear of man, and they’ll never enter manhood: to know how to fight for and win their family and be led by God in the midst of it (The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps Pr 16:9). Keeping a genuine desire for His will in prayer and life, caring for the people around you (not being the jerk guy who does His best to protect her heart with what's within his control), and trusting God can make good with any hand we deal Him or are dealt in life (see Joseph in Genesis, David, Abraham, Paul… Rom 8:28), is vital to having the confidence to get to and conquer the promised land he has for our lives as men and bring our encourage or wives and kids with confidence into their destiny as well.
Could I challenge something to make a little more complete? Don't hear me wrong, but it sounds like to me that you never experienced the heartbreak side of taking the risk you’re talking about. Meeting your husband right after you changed to this new way of thinking hardly shows you’ve tested the theory seeing how it works out if it doesn’t work out. Am I wrong about that? I may have misinterpreted your story. To continue with that point, the way your story worked, it worked out for you. You took the risk and you didn’t get burned. I think to really bolster the argument here, you would have to present a testimony where God still comes through (through healing, protecting, redeeming…) when we go out on a limb and it breaks. I just don’t like the idea that it sounds like you’re taking stabs at this issue from a safe place because the people who aren’t in a safe place (are single wondering how to go about finding a spouse) need to hear from someone who’s gone through the valley (been heartbroken) and has been led out of it (recovered their heart and been healed from the Lord). To me it honestly sounds like their teaching really did protect your heart for your husband, so it did the trick. Other than some awkward fears around non-spousal men, it sounds like you turned out alright, though don’t get me wrong, I still fully agree with what you said.
Just because I never personally experienced something, doesn't mean I haven't witnessed it. I've seen everything when it comes to relationships, have walked through every scenario imaginable. I don't think you have to experience everything to have understanding. If you'd like more stories from people raised in this mind-set the ended up in all kinds of different places, check out the post on my personal blog where I complied many comments, e-mails, and friends' stories. Perhaps you'll find something you relate to here:
http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
Also, my husband was not raised like I was. I was not his first girlfriend, he'd been dating since he was 13. So I do have an understanding of the baggage that can come from that and the unique issues that happen in a relationship when you've had previous relationships.
Thank you for this insightful post! I am doing a series on this very topic called 90's Dating Gone Bad on my own blog (thesexycelibate.com). I thought I was done with the series, but I realize now there was a whole topic I missed after reading this post. I have dated a few men. I'm in my 30s now. I do not regret those relationships, even though they ended in heartbreak. I learned things about myself that I could never have learned with a girlfriend. "Preparing for marriage" is not only about staying pure and reading the right books. Sometimes it is about learning to have healthy relationships with men (even men we date),despite the fact that it's a bigger risk. After dating my last boyfriend for 2.5 years, I know much more what kind of man I would fit with long term. I know I need someone playful and laid back, which I would not have known if I hadn't dated someone with a good heart but who was also very serious. It will help me make a better choice in the end.
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I grew up in a broken home and went to public school. I read I kissed Dating Goodbye in 8th grade and am so glad I did! I was already in dating relationships left and right. Wrecking my heart and on the verge of giving away my body. That book convinced me not to mess with romance until I was ready to marry. I married a dear friend at the age of twenty and am so glad he got my first "I love you."
I read your article and was ready to write a rebuttal, but decided to learn where you're coming from first. I had never heard of IBLP or ATI when I stumbled across your article.
Wow. Those organizations are pretty unbelievable. I understand your article and the comments here much better now, and will definitely be on the look out for the kind of legalism creeping into my parenting. (As I might turn to it in reaction against my own, very different background.)
It's great that you recognize what you wrote in your last sentence. I guarantee that most, if not all, of our parents got into this kind of legalism as a reaction against their (very different) upbringings.
Bingo
Thank you for taking the time to say this, Amy Beth. I know that on the surface, the intensity or opinions of the articles on this site may seem extremist or even unGodly. But taken as a whole, each article building on the premise that these teachings damage faith and families, there is a lot of valuable forewarning here for those of us starting our own families and wanting "the best" for our children. These are real stories from young people who lived in this authoritarian environment and are all grown up, now. Not stories from angsty teens who hate authority. Most of us even tried to follow the courtship model, or the authoritarian structure, etc. We have the stories to prove it. It is nice to be validated by someone on the "outside" who chose not to kneejerk on a perception and took time to look into the matter first. So, thank you.
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I couldn't disagree with this article more. On the other hand, I don't want to sound aggressive in doing so.
I don't totally endorse the "courtship" model, however. I'm simply disagreeing with the knock on "guarding your heart!"
The author equates the "giving a piece of your heart away" to each successive boyfriend/girlfriend teaching to the love you give away to your kids, saying:
"The more pieces you give away, the less of your heart you have to give to your spouse someday. Harris even went so far as to say that each of those former flames actually have some sort of hold on you. This has got to be the most bogus and the most damaging teaching of this entire movement. Love doesn’t work that way. The more you give, the more you have. My third child doesn’t have less of my heart just because I’ve loved two other children before him."
That is such a specious argument.
There is a WORLD of difference between the love a parent gives away to each successive child and the "love" you give away to each boyfriend you have in a line of temporary relationships, each that ends with no little pain and hurt. It is absolutely true that love is not diminished in the family setting as it is added to by new births, marriages, and such. No one could argue that.
But logic and real life experience involving painful break-ups, disappointment, and avowals of true love that are rescinded weeks or months later teach us that there IS significant loss in each break-up of a close, "romantically-focused" relationship. I've seen that in my own life and in the lives of countless others over the years.
But "guarding your heart" does NOT mean that you remain totally emotionally unaffected by the many friendships that you enter into during those courting years where moving towards marriage is finally a real possibility. To me, it just means being wise and discreet, not throwing all emotional caution to the wind with each and every new dating relationship. We've ALL seen men and women who go TOTALLY "in love" with the first few dates, only to be crushed a short time later.
Moving slow. Giving a relationship time to grow. Getting to know ABOUT someone for a longer period of time before allowing those emotions to go into over-drive. Watching the new friend in life, in ministry, and in a broad number of social settings before investing great sums of our emotional cash is what "guarding your heart" means to me. It's not stilted, proud, or being artificially "safe." It's just real-world smart.
And, I should add, ONE thing that totally helps a person keep his or her emotions at the right level is to walk in proper physical purity. There is NO way to stay emotionally "pure" after you have begun to interact with your boyfriend in a physical way. It just doesn't happen. No one is so robotically wired that he/she can smooch, "pet" (as we called it in the '70s), etc... with someone as a simple enjoyable dating "activity," and keep from being emotionally attached to that person.
But the couple who is in the early or even the moderately advanced stages of getting to know one another, and who can stay away from inappropriate physical interaction CAN keep their emotions at a proper level so that if/when they realize that marriage is NOT in their future, they can comfortably part without that painful wrenching that is ALWAYS present when you HAVE "given away your heart."
Treating your date, (in the physical area, that is) treating your "special friend," or whatever you call him/her these days, as you would treat your brother or sister - as you would treat anyone who you knew was probably going to be someone ELSE'S husband someday - goes MILES in helping you emotionally guard your heart.
AMEN!
First of all I want to I'm on here to argue anything!
My family was in ATI, but we didn't follow any of it legalistically like the families on here that have been hurt so badly by it.
I say that because we did believe in courtship but not quite the way ATI taught it.(in truth it was much different then ATI) We read Josh Harris's book as well as things by the Ludy's.(I will say we didn't really like I Kissed Dating Good Bye, but enjoyed Ludy's stuff.)
My sisters and I will all have been married by the age of 26...(I say will because my youngest sister getting married this Dec.)
For my sister's and I courtship looked different for each one of us,
my parents didn't believe one size fits all.
When we were teenagers my parents actually encouraged us to study scripture and pray about it and then write down what we thought courtship should look like. We knew what our personal temptations were, so we knew some of the situations it would be best to avoid.
Then we set down and discussed it as a family. Actually my parents talked us out of somethings they thought we were being a little to strict on.
I just wanted to share...not every thing is bad about courtship(i'm not talking about ATI's way) but, I'm sorry some of you have had bad experiences!
P.S.
My sisters and I have had ABSOLUTELY no problem being friends with guys.
*that was suppose to say...I"M NOT ON HERE TO ARGUE ANYTHING.
That's what happens when you're trying to type late at night.
Thank you for this article. It describes my life and experience perfectly. Your article came at the perfect time for me. I'm in a relationship, finally discovering for the first time that these fears, the pride, shame... everything... It's all a lie. And I'm done with it. I want to fall in love and not be afraid of it, I want to be vulnerable and know that I can break and be ok with it. So thank you again.
I 100% reject Bill Gothard's ideas of emotional purity. They essentially turned any age appropriate male into 'forbidden fruit' for me, and while I did not physically sin, I wasted years pining after my knight in shining armor because I was desperate. But the other HUGE reason I reject BG's notion of emotional purity is because the man can't even practice/keep his own laws! (And apparently can't keep his hands to himself. Read the stories of sexual harrassment for more information.)
Thank you for your honest and revealing look at the pitfalls of the courtship movement from one who lived through it. I pray that your memories will lessen over time. Sometimes Satan uses our tough life experiences to mess with our minds and try to through us off course. When those occur to me, I immediately rebuke them and move on.
We have been watching the failures of courtship injure people at our churches for years. We are struggling with a friendship that has been negatively affected by courtship as they have imposed their shewed relationship views and pride on us. Whenever we are around them, it is like we are tap dancing around the issue, the "elephant in the room."
I'm new to this post and don't know what most of these acronyms stand for, but I'm bewildered by the comments that men and women shouldn't have "intimate" (and I'm not talking physical) relationships. Jesus had an intimate relationship with Mary Magdalene. She loved him, and he loved her--fully, completely. She gave away "a piece of her soul" to him.
The Bible calls men and women to healthy relationships with each other. Of course, sin gets in the way. But I hope my sons date many, many girls--and get their hearts broken along the way a few times, as rough as that sounds. It's how we grow up. It's how we mature. It's how we know in life what is worth fighting for and marrying for.
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“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless–it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.” ~C. S. Lewis
This comment was added by the author of this blog at the end of her article. This very wise man was talking about our relationship with Christ-
He was talking about "loving anything" and "loving at all". It applies to any kind of love.
This is exactly how I was brought up. But I went to a Christian school and was never homeschooled. Just goes to show it's not just homeschoolers who are oppressed by these man-made shackles of guilt and shame.
Thank you for this article! I'm a 23 year-old young man, on my own journey from IBPL/ATI, and pursuing (read "dating") a young lady with similar background. We are searching Scripture for answers, trying to make our own decisions, while at the same seeking to honor our parents and treat them properly. (It makes for some tough discussions.)
Hold the train. I feel that this article is written in the extreme and does not reflect an accurate Biblical stance. Much of what was written was against Joshua Harris and the Ludys and though I may not line up entirely with all of their teaching, they are wise men and women who have studied the Scriptures and possess much wisdom from which we can and should learn from.
First off, love for a child is much different than your love for someone of the opposite sex. Such romantic love, what Joshua Harris and others most often refer to (in the Greek "eros"), should be guarded and not used and abused. I strongly believe that God has called us to one, specific, perfect "someone" and will guide and direct us to that person with out us having to be intimately, romantically attached to many someones down the road (emotionally and/or physically). It is our choice to do so, but I don't think that it's consistent with His nature nor is it part of His will.
Second, we do have to be careful on some occasions in order not to be a stumbling block to the weaker brother. Now I am not saying that we should avoid all those of the opposite sex like the plague, nor am I saying you can't have healthy friendships with one another but I am saying we should be careful in such relationships and not let them grow into something they shouldn't or cause any unnecessary problems.
Third, I can see where pride could be easily established in such strong view points and standards but such pride is does not stem from a stance on emotional purity but rather from the heart of the individual that chooses to be prideful in their viewpoint. What the Pharisees believed in as a whole wasn't necessarily the issue, rather it was the condition of their hearts that was their downfall, a condition that can be developed with any opinion right or left.
Fourth, I do agree that we shouldn't be so glued to formulas that we die without them. In fact I think that faith is dying in Christianity and we do need to develop a bigger view of God, rely on Him more. However, to say that God doesn't like formulas is very much extreme and not at all consistent with His nature. Yes He does desire our 100% reliance on Him and no He doesn't want to be shoved into man made boxes of doubt, but He does demonstrate that He is not a God of confusion. He has a plan and He does reveal it to us. We see "formulas" all through out God's working in creation, salvation, and sanctification. I think that there is a right and wrong way to do things, yes even with dating and courtship, and when we stray away from such black and whites we are treading on thin ice. God has set apart marriage as one man and one woman for life. Why not honor this commitment of singularity even before you say "I do."
Finally, Mr. Lewis is referring to an established relationship with Christ and not to the realm of dating and courtship in the quote mentioned at the end of this article. If anything our relationship to Christ is a perfect picture of what marriage should be, faithful and consistent. (Ephesians 5-6) Should we grow cold hearts? NO. Should we carefully guard our hearts, remain unstained from the world, absolutely. There is a perfect balance, one that I believe can only be found in Scripture, a source far superior to the opinions of mere man. Let the His Word be our judge.
Isn't Joshua Harris the author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? Then he wrote "Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship."
Jeremy Clark wrote "I Gave Dating a Chance." I recommend Clarck's book.
Curious Jay did you grow up under IBLP or ATI indoctrination?
I know many people will disagree with you. I still think it is great that you took a stand and wrote from your heart on the matter. Good for you! I say stay strong. :)
Ha, Seth, this has been the most loved and the most hated article I think I have ever read. LOL
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Using the word legalism is a straw straw man.... It is name calling.... do you Really know FOR SURE those u accuse that have sinful motives?Everyone has rules... just some have less than others.
What a great, NON-answer that was. You seem to be accusing us of something, how do YOU know we have sinful motives?
I know nothing about Mr Gothards motives. In fact, as far as I am concerned his motives are largely beside the point. I am even willing to assume that he has the best of motives for the sake of discussion. However, his teachings are clearly legalistic. I invite you to examine and respond to a series of articles which deal with just some of the specifics of why I make this claim. http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/the-sexual-rules-of-mr-gothard/ Here you can examine and respond to more in depth looks at specific Scriptures and teachings.
Quick synopsis in case you are too busy to read:
Mr Gothard teaches that we are morally obligated to follow select commands from the Mosaic code. In particular, commands which are abrogated in the NT such as laws on uncleanness and circumcision. And this doesn't even go into all the extra-biblical rules he tries to put burden the believer with.
And yes, everyone has rules. Rules isn't the issue though. Instead...
1. It is the fact that Mr G creates rules which he claims are out of Scripture but which are not. Rules by means of Scripture twisting in other words. Rules is one thing - trying to make them authoritative on a false basis is another matter. I have no problem with Mr G having the rule of "no rock music", it's the fact that he seeks to teach "thus says God" when God has not said.
2. Additionally, Mr G not only creates an illegitimate authority for his rules, he also seeks to morally obligate all believers with his set of rules. It's one thing to have the rule "no rock music" for ones self. It's also one thing to even set such rules for ones employees (as long as it is open and up front). But it's a whole different matter to create an extra-biblical rule and then seek to make it a moral obligation for all believers. Or to do the same thing with OT law for that matter.
So, it's not about Mr G having rules or even what his rules happen to be, it's that he seeks to make his personal rules authoritative and obligate other believers with them.
I just found this website today and have been reading for nearly 4 hours. I am a former ATI student. My family started ATI back in the early 90's. I vividly remember making the long trek from Arkansas on I-40 to Knoxville, TN to the summer conference for several years. I am 31 years old now but the teachings and experiences I had in ATI are still fresh on my mind. I really appreciate this article. As a member of a Southern Baptist Church, I was actively involved in my youth group. Surprisingly, I had a lot of friends despite my ATI background. One thing that really angered me though was the fact that my parents had shunned dating (among a list of other things) because of Gothard's constant teaching of courtship. I went to a youth camp each summer with our church at Ouachita Baptist University called Super Summer. It was the highlight of my summer for several reasons; one being meeting cute Christian girls from across Arkansas. While at Super Summer one year, I became friends with a beautiful girl from a town just outside of Little Rock. She came from a wonderful Christian family and was deeply in love with the Lord. She dressed stylist but modestly, and she enjoyed going on mission trips. As you can imagine, I became very infatuated with this girl and our relationship continued well after Super Summer had ended. We exchanged up to 5 emails a day (pre-facebook/text messaging), and her best friend, who was also a friend of mine, began to tell me that she knew this girl had strong feelings for me. By this time I was no longer in ATI, in fact I was actually enrolled in public school, but the teachings from Bill Gothard will still very fresh on my mind and without my parents telling me any different, I thought I was still forbidden to date girls. So, as the months passed, and summer gave way to fall, I eventually stopped emailing and going to visit this girl because it was tearing me up not being able to move past the friend point of our relationship. My parents (and let me say that they were and are great parents in numerous areas), never really told me when their stance changed on dating. As a result of this, my relationship with this girl eventually faded and she went on to be homecoming queen and started dating a guy her freshman year of college who is now her husband. I, on the other hand, eventually found out that my parents were ok with dating and wound up dating a girl at my high school. I say all this to say, Bill Gothard warped and partially ruined my high school years. It's amazing that when people find out now that I was in the ATI program for over 6 years, they can't believe how normal I am. I could go on and on, but I wanted to share this story here so that others can see just how crazy Bill Gothard really is.
From the guys' perspective it's just as messed up - and I know Josh Harris personally. I grew up this way myself with my family buying into it and everything only to realize what a miserable horrible hopeless sinner I was because at age 16/17 I had IMPURE THOUGHTS. This whole movement instead of teaching people how to deal with the reality that we are and always will be an instinctual sexual species properly makes it seem that if you in any way even HAVE those urges you are hopeless. It basically drove me in some ways as a teen away from Christianity feeling that I must be really missing the boat or perhaps not truly saved and couldn't figure out how to get there because I liked a girl... something in my 30s I look back and go "what 16 year old boy HASN'T liked a girl, and what 16 year old boy HASN'T had to learn to keep his thought life straight?"
It's like some ultra conservative Mennonites that I know - they teach modesty sooo hardcore that some of the young men have never seen a girl even in a pair of shorts. They go to the local gas station and can't keep their eyes from wandering at everything that moves because instead of being taught how to deal with reality, they have been taught to pretend it doesn't exist.
As a mother that was not taught purity and courtship, but is teaching her children both, I can tell you that I have not read any of the books or authors you spoke about. I read the bible. The bible clearly states that we are to not unequally yoke ourselves. God has a plan for us. He purposed a spouse for us. Why shouldn't we trust (have faith) in that. If that is true than being romantic with others is cheating on our future spouse. What about when you do get married. A song comes on the radio and you remember that kiss from a different person. Stiring up old feelings for another person while married to someone is considered adultery in Gods eyes. We are teaching our children that courtship is to make sure you are both on the same page. And to get parents involved. It does promote purity, but it also promotes like mindedness and a deep friendship. As for purity, think of how many physical rewards this brings. Many STD's hide in the shadows for years. Some even change your DNA and can effect your children. Even if you just kiss, you can still spread several things; like herpes, mono, and even HIV/AIDS if you both have open wounds. Even something simple as bleeding gums from brushing too hard. We don't feel that courting and staying pure until marriage is some "formula" for a perfect marriage. We do feel that it is the best way for our children to begin a marriage. After the "I DO's" the work doesn't stop. The fun really begins. Date your spouse. Work at keeping love and passion alive. Keep communication going. I think if we made our children feel so condemned about anything else feeling similar to you about in the end as well. But like I said. We don't use men's books, we use Gods words.
Hi Jennifer, I think maybe you misunderstood some things. I don't think anyone here is advocating throwing caution to the wind, or even being careless, I think most of us at least are just sharing our own experiences of why formulaic courtship according to ATI has too many holes for it to be worthwhile. :) I think it's great that you are going by God's Word rather than anyone else's 'formula'.
I'm not sure I agree with the premise that being 'romantic' for someone else is cheating on your future spouse, I think it would depend on what you mean by the 'being romantic' part. If you have not given any human being a vow before the Lord, you are not being unfaithful to anyone, because you haven't pledged your faith to any individual yet. (cause you don't know who they are yet.) I believe I understand where you are coming from, but I think that in and of itself, it could be a damaging idea. Please let me explain.
ATI taught that if you so much as 'crushed' on an individual, you have given away a piece of your heart. Some took this more seriously than others, but ultimately it ended up with alot of young people taking their childhood/teen crushes, and turning them into something horrid in their minds, believing that they were basically giving away something that couldn't be taken back. And I'm just talking about noticing that someone was cute, and observing them, I'm not even talking about dating or beyond. You would probably say that that is an overreaction to the teaching, and you would be correct, however that is the reaction that the teaching gave us, whether it was intentional or not.
So with that being said, I'm not entirely sure how Biblical the idea is that if you date/court/get to know anyone for the purpose of looking for marriage, and you do not end up marrying that person, that you've cheated on your future spouse? (Going under the assumption that the individuals involved stayed pure. Fornication and adultery aren't the same thing in Scripture.)
It is true that sometimes heartbreak occurs. But I truly do not know how that can be prevented in some cases. Some people (usually girls) may fall in love with someone, without even meaning to, and get their hearts broke, and that person never even noticed them. What can you do about such a situation? Many times it wasn't something that could be helped.. Hypothetical situation of course, but it does occur.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling, and again I completely understand where you are coming from. I guess I would caution you to be sure that your hopes and dreams (as wholesome and good as they are) for your children leave room for the Lord to do the unexpected things He tends to do. You never know what His plan may be, there may come situations that you did not 'plan' for (not that the situations are bad persay, just something different than you anticipated). I've just seen too many parents 'plan' their children's lives, full of good things, and never realize that maybe that wasn't exactly God's plan all along.
Peace and blessings.
what a great inspection and discernment of false teachings, I have never been able to get past the half way point of that Joshua Harris book, I always found myself arguing out loud with the book...I have however had to deal with "de programming" myself from some crazy teachings that probably started off with good intentions but lacked truth and grace. I did a year of ministry school at a church I used to attend in another part of the state, my eyes were opened big time to the truth and to what was going on with the teachings going on at the church and not just the ministry school...We become like the Pharisees and forsake the truth or twist it , even just slightly, to stroke our own ego. And when we do that there is like this trail of collateral damage in our wake from others who have taken hold of those teachings. It always causes division instead of unity, it always seeks to benefit self above all else. May God bless and anoint you as you seek to "un-learn" and re wire your thinking.
Well, this is amazing and yet not so much. I am going to keep it really brief and if someone wants to go deeper I will expand my comments. The way I found this is through my adult son. I was every parents nightmare. I was a manipulator and sought out week girls for relationships that eventually led to sex. One of the first things the Lord did when I gave him my life was open my eyes to what that was all about and where it came from. Sure there are worse guys out there and worse thing to do, but being a tool in Satan's hand used on another human being created in God's image is pretty bad. Well this is what I feel I ought to say: For the most part it is impossibly to get Godly counsel. Please be very careful when you entrust your future to the wisdom of another. The scriptures say there is safety in a multitude of counselors, but it also says ask of the Father and he will give you wisdom, and the Spirit will teach you. I am not trying to say go solo, just make sure the final word comes from God, not man. Search the scriptures. I have made it a point to tell women, "All men are jerks, raised by their mothers to take care of one person, themselves." That is a fairly good general statement, but you shouldn't base your life on it. I base it on a fairly eclectic life, and a lot of witnessed heartache. When God got me he made it plain he wanted me for himself alone. We are so prone to idolatry. We are called to know him and he us. Let him be the source of the course of your life. When I went to basic youth conflicts I said some of this is good and some of this is maybe right for Bill and no one else. I can say with assurance whatever mistake we make God is bigger than it. The things we do sexually have a way of leaving a "permanent" impression. This does not nullify the scripture that says he has plans for us to give us a future and a hope. I have been married for 25 years and parent four children of my own. Every one of us is different. We are all vulnerable in different area. Scripture says don't let your freedom become a stumbling block for someone else. My wife can do many things I cannot. However, she has to accept my limitations, and not presume on others. Our culture says we should not allow limits. I say know your own limits and don't let others impose their freedoms on you or your limits on them, unless you share the same house.
I think this is where my teaching went wrong. I don't recall hearing "God's discernment" or "pray for wisdom" until I was in college. No one taught me to seek the counsel of the Lord and the Holy Spirit. Instead, I was handed these books that said "this is the perfect way to date." And at 16 years old, I believed them whole heartedly. Thank you for sharing your story, John.
Darcy,
Thank you so much for having the strength to write about this topic. I am on the tail end of your "generation" that you said has been affected. It wasn't until just now reading that I realized how I am struggling through the same anxious feelings towards relationships, caused by that train of thought. You can't solve a problem until you know it's a problem so thank you for pointing this out, and I hope with time I will be able to move forward.
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I'm not really clear what these organizations are that you are indicating but I have read the "kissed dating good-bye" book with my teens and felt like I had wished that I had something like this when I was their age. I went through many emotional damaging relationships early on in life. Trying to find attention in the wrong ways leading to the exporting of one man, 12-15 years older than I was from the country I lived in at that time. Thought I was "in love" at least that what the romance novels I was reading seemed to push me toward. I don't understand the purpose of Christian romance novels, I steer my teens away from that. If I had my heart focused on Christ I could have avoided those lost years. In everything you read you need to take some things with a grain of salt. I don't use the Harris book to replace the Bible, but it certainly gives my teens something to reflect on from another person's experiences and what God showed him. Many of you have taken it too far. I almost did that with parenting books, especially the one written by Debi Pearl and her husband. I had to throw it away, it was not the direction where I felt the Lord was taking me. I also believe that having relationships that are not God-ordained create soul ties and that if the wrong relationships have occurred then there is a God that can heal you. Before I was married we had physical relationships before getting right with the Lord, so when we wanted to start our engagement we prayed for God to deliver us from past scars and hurts. It helped us to start with a clean slate and to start this journey of marriage that has lasted over 20 years to survive. God's grace is sufficient, He has you here for a purpose, don't waste the teenage years over needless drama.
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I grew up in a non-Christian household and started going to youth group in high school. I read the books you mentioned to learn how to date the "right way." They did way more harm than good, and I often tell younger girls I know that they ruined my dating-life. They made me believe that anyone I had strong feelings for needed to become my husband. They definitely made me feel shameful and less than.
It took many years to repair that damage, and it's definitely still healing. I also have the same reaction about being alone with men. While there are lines that are good to not cross, not every second is a line waiting to be broken. I'm still trying to figure that part out.
Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm glad a friend of mine sent me the link.
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Darcy,
It is exciting what the Lord is doing in your life and sounds like He has been so gracious to you. I know He has to me.
I would like to say that scripture calls us to contend for the truth, not contend against each other. My hope is that we can come to truth on what it really looks like to love your neighbor as yourself rather than loving yourself and not your neighbor. I didn't get saved until I was 22. We had tons of mistakes and the consequences that remained. My husband and I are now raising four daughters. We have read many of the books you mention, I agree there can and is much legalism to be found if that is what you want. The flesh always detracts from the gospel, either in rebellion or in legalism. It is a hard battle. The flesh is happy to patted on the back for conforming or rebelling. It doesn't care much. Good doctrine is important to battle against the flesh. The word of truth and the Holy Spirit are given to lead us. Although we have adopted some principles from the courtship method, we have desired to remind our children of the gospel everyday. We have said it is normal to "like" someone. The heart issues from above are dangerous either side. To say that it is wise to not guard your heart would not take into account the true experiences of many believers and nonbelievers who have suffered from the teachings of the other side. My oldest daughter has been in a non typical "courtship" which we have only used the term because we don't know one that is in the middle of worldly selfish dating and over controling prideful courting. However, I will say that by her father and I being involved has within just a few months, brought about many issues that answered the question of "are they ready? Are they right for each other? Will they serve God better together?, and those are good questions to ask. It is hard for parents to make these decisions and work through it all. It will be hard for you one day when you are the parent of teenagers. For our family, we have tried to be a family where grace covers our mistakes as parents and the mistakes of our kids. As far the overt sinful actions of either we repent knowing that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. So all of that to say......May we all have grace for one another while we contend for the faith.
ps. We have never been in any of the fundamental movements but have friends who are or have been. The promise for them is He who began a good work in them will be faithful to complete it. I grew a up heathen. The same promise is mine. When we have broke away from something we must be so careful not to judge from the opposite end of where we judging before but to remember the gospel and preach it to ourselves and to those who are not like us.
I was Homeschooled, raised in a conservative Baptist Church, went to BLP seminars and spent my high school years under the ATI "umbrella." I identify with a lot of what Darcy and others have said here - a huge sense of shame for developing intense feelings for a young lady while I was still a teenager, and a fear-based interaction with young people of the opposite sex.
However, my parents, while embracing many of the ATI ideals, did not participate in this sheep mentality. In fact there's a little saying my mother passed along in a conversation I had with her about ATI (and the sheep/zombie mentality a lot of people in the organization seem to adopt) that has stuck with me through the years:
"Chew up the meat and spit out the bones."
I think many, if not all of these books and sermons and ideals about dating, courtship, or whatever it may be, have some "nuggets" of "meat" and some "bones." Mature Christians need to learn how to figure out the difference between the two. Sadly, many Christians never do, and spend their lives following whoever happens to have the loudest voice.
Darcy you probably won't read this comment, but (and I paraphrase) you've said that, after all this time, your relational reflexes still follow the fear-based rules and formulas about dating and opposite-sex interaction, and you have to do some "self-talk" to reassure yourself.
I would really encourage you and anyone else who feels the same way to spend some time talking to Jesus, in whatever way you do, to address the shame and fear that is still there. Jesus has *really* taken our shame, and He wants us to trust what He says. Also, I think sometimes we need to learn to trust others and ourselves. Fear and shame are ALWAYS damaging, no matter how they're packaged as "holiness" or "purity." In order for us to relate in a Healthy and Godly way with ANY other person, we need to do so WITHOUT fear and shame. True and Godly love (not the sentimental, mushy kind, but the kind that sees and pursues what is best for each person and oneself even if it is painful or "tough love") will guide our actions and teach us how to relate to all other people. Instead of thinking "Is this ok? Is this appropriate?" Let's ask, "Am I acting out of fear? Am I acting out of shame? Or am I acting out of love?"
What are some of the most significant things Jesus said in the Gospels?
"Do not be afraid." "Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, with all your Strength, and with all your Mind." "Love your neighbor as yourself."
As someone who has broken a lot of "rules" I could feel mountains of shame and fear about who I am and what I've done. But thankfully, by understanding and accepting grace, I don't. (Look up the series about Shame by Jeff van Vonderan Living in fear and shame is crippling and hinders your relationship with God and with others. It especially gets in the way of the most important relationships: spouses, parents, siblings, and children.
Also a thought about the "giving your heart away" idea. I think to say that once we've given a piece of our heart to someone it's permanent and we'll never get that back - it's total BS and even contradicts scripture. Jesus heals our WHOLE heart. It may take time, even a lifetime, but it happens. Completely. It's absolutely ridiculous to state that any person can do any act that is impossible for God to forgive or heal. That undermines one of the most basic tenets of Christianity.
That said - emotional experiences and memories are usually permanent. They form in our brains. Our brains are really good at keeping a strong hold on emotional events that activated lots of hormones. So you may never forget that one kiss, or the way that one person would talk to you or touch you. I know, 10 years later, I haven't forgotten her smile or the way she used to tease me. We may never have those exact emotional experiences again. And that's ok. That's one of those "facts of life" that we need to learn to accept, and then move on.
So let us continue to ask these questions: "Is this action based in fear or shame? Is this action coming from love?" and let us bring our fear and shame to Jesus for His healing.
Sorry for the long post, maybe I should have just written this on my own blog...
Good points! I will look up the series on Shame by Jeff Van Vonderan. Thank you for sharing.
I know that our shame as well as our sins were taken upon the Lord Jesus at the cross. If it weren't for that, I'd probably be in the funny farm by now.
... the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony...Rev. 12:10,11
I also share your concerns about "emotional purity." We always get in trouble when we go beyond what is written in Scripture and start inventing new rules (even with good intentions).
I grew up on the Ludys, the Harris books, and Sarah Mally (Mally being a Gothardite) and books like that. About 7 months ago, I threw out all of these and recanted my beliefs on "Christian courtship and dating." People say the Ludys are more gracious about relationships, but they really aren't- they teach a different kind of legalism- the same fruit, different methods and guilt tactics.
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" Fear of making the wrong choice. Fear of getting hurt. Fear of being damaged. Fear of not measuring up"
On the contrary. I am perhaps the "least afraid" of pain and messing up in my circles of friend, while I also am the 'most guarded'. I do not insist that I know someone -before- I date them because I am afraid of 'loving and losing', but rather so that I can evaluate their treatment of others (any guy can treat me well, but how does he treat his friends? Does he treat other girls with respect)? and their relationship with God.
Conversely, the men that want to jump right in and date me, after only knowing me a short time, usually are the ones who are the most insecure and afraid. The ones who need physical, hormonal, or even emotional reassurance all the time are the ones who are the most scared and run to whatever girl offers them the most immediate reassurance. I have encountered countless men who have bought into this fear that they will never have a wife unless they quickly get a girlfriend.
I have 'loved and lost' many times - I am not afraid of heartbreak or risking rejection. I do not *unwisely* chase the wrong men or arouse horomones, and I do not think the 'honeymoon period' is the best time to make decisions (the first year of a relationship when horomones run high and both see each other through rose colored glasses and respond to stress better than they normally would).
It is not shameful to love and lose and love again - it is shameful to date around with men you never even planned on marrying to begin with. It's also really cruel to *deliberately* flirt with men or women and toy with them. It's plain not smart to nurture crushes or horomones - but one also should recognize that 'reaction' is normal. There is a difference between reacting to a hug or blushing at a comment and -deliberately- going out of your way to get hugs whenever you can, to be alone or sit next to your crush target, or solicit comments or feelings.
Also, you can date someone with the intent of marraige and *not* marry them without feeling 'shame' - that is a misunderstanding of courtship. It is not the same thing as engagement. Basically, the difference is that you are not dating to "get to know them" (you should already know them or they should have been prescreened by people you respect) or see "how compatible they are" - but rather, they meet your preliminary standards as far as following God and the view is towards marriage. Now you can discuss how the families will work together, any secrets that may cause issue, any beliefs that may conflict. If any red flags occur, the two may still break up amicably. Horomones are not being heavily encouraged at this stage so much as life planning and team-building, etc.
All four loves are necessary (storge, phileo, agape, eros) for a marraige. Eros is the easiest to cultivate, yet it should not be actively cultivated until after marriage (there will be enough of a natural reaction before!). Do not arouse or waken love until it so desires. This is because eros -easily- distracts from the development of the other three if it is nurtured first.
It isn't about a checklist (don't do this, don't do that) - it is about the state of the heart. In fact, it's less legalistic than the modern christian mindset that 'so long as you come to the alter a virgin, that's all God cares about!'. God doesn't care about our physical virginity, but our *spiritual* virginity. Where our our hearts? Are we following Him? Have we been trusting Him? Did we pick a man that was 'our ideal' or 'God's best'? Did we flirt around with countless men until one flirted back? Did we break countless hearts until we found a guy to satisfy our wants? Did we date around and break up countless times, practicing breaking commitments over and over again, and now expect we can be loyal for a lifetime? Did our dating life look exactly like a non-Christians except a few church phrases sprinkled in, and maybe we cuddled at youth group instead of the movies?
We are to be set apart and pure. This doesn't mean we have to be 'perfect' - because God is working on us all. If we fail, we will learn from the experience and be able to help others. If, however, we have the mindset that we can indulge in all the lust and hormonal fantasies we please - and 'no one will get hurt', we are deluding ourselves. If we expect God to approve of us being led by sensuality and fantasy about the future, rather than trusting Him to provide and living prudently, we are also deluding ourselves.
I must say that while you echo many of my personal feelings on the Christian courtship movement, you might benefit from reading "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" in closer detail, and especially his sequel "Boy Meets Girl".
Harris is a guy with a clear view of God's grace. If you read thoroughly, you will see that he does not condone fear or discourage risk-taking in relationships. He insists several times that formulas are not the answer (although he was much clearer on this in his second book). IMO, the paranoia between men and women in the church isn't really Harris's doing, or even the courtship movement. It's a much more over-arching overreaction to the adultery explosion.
Harris is merely promoting selflessness in dating. Yeah, he overspiritualized it. The Ludys might have definitely overspiritualized it - I certainly don't have a shoebox of love letters to offer a wife, I was too busy earning the college degree that's going to help feed her. But...just like you, they can claim endless emails and comments from folks who found blessing from God through their advice. You both have that going in your favor.
My take is that God works to undo whatever defense mechanism we've erected to protect ourselves...and that such mechanisms look different for every person. For some, following a rigid no-dating formula is really just a godless grasp at safety and God's answer for them might be to actively date. Those are the people you're addressing.
For others, however, their defense formula MIGHT VERY WELL BE RABID DATING. Those are the ones Harris was addressing. They date because THEIR fear is of being alone, being unseen, being unloved, and being neglected by God, so they take things into their own hands with a selfish dating philosophy. For them, truly letting go and trusting God might mean retreating into a box very much like Harris advises. For them, THAT is the risk: counting upon God to deliver instead of one's own devices. This would certainly describe Harris himself, judging by his own testimony.
So I would not be so quick to judge those in the courtship movement. I have come to find that a lot of Christian authors who speak on disputable matters like this, despite some errors and even minor theological wobbles, get used by God to reach specific groups of people. It is the only explanation as to why opposing philosophies can both be used by God. I often feel that Harris' writings are too easily misused, but if we read wisely and appropriate his teachings with wisdom, there's a lot of good stuff there. And he's writing heavily from the testimonies and anecdotes of others. It's not a strictly theoretical exercise at all.
That reminds me of an article where Harris himself said that he realized the idea had been overstated to sound like a spiritualized principle that was the one way better than all others rather than one perspective on a big subject. While I might wonder if he could have stated this more clearly or taken more responsibility (remembering that many books were sold), he did sound pretty reasonable in that piece to me. Less like a defensive ideologue and more like someone who puts ideas out there that he thinks will be helpful.
Brandon, your antepenultimate (I had to look that word up!) and penultimate paragraphs strike me as perceptive. God leads different individuals on different journeys, and what is a defense mechanism for one person may well be an uncomfortably vulnerable road for another, and vice versa.
Most of us aren't judging those in the courtship movement, we're judging the movement itself as something tremendously flawed, and we're also disgusted with the experiences we've had with people declaring, 'dating is practice for divorce!' (preached by those who dated and still have yet to divorce), and 'courtship is practice for marriage! (preached by those who never courted according to Bill's stringent and impossible methods.. That's my simplistic take on the article, at least.
(btw, I've heard it said that over half of the institute approved courtships that resulted in marriage, have now ended in divorce. That speaks for itself really.)
I like the way you articulate your ideas, but you missed the point. The point is, don't pursue a girl/boy unless you really wanted to marry that person and you really prayed for that person. It's not about living in accordance with the tradition or opinions of others, It is living in accordance with the will of God. If our actions will not bring glory to God, such as wrong motives in meeting the opposite sex, then we should stop that. If you like a girl/ guy, then ask yourselves, does my thoughts about this person bring glory to the Lord?" If we truly love God, we won't do things that displeases Him. I guess the best way is to focus on the mission God has given to us and if a person comes along, ask yourself this two questions "Do we have the same master?" "Do we have the same mission?" before even considering him/her as your mate. And earnestly seek for God's will for the two of you.
YES BUT---the whole point is that BG has made it that even talking to someone of the opposite sex will lead to sin. His followers are so afraid of every thought they have might somehow be less than godly. In the news a little boy was suspended from school and other punishments because his key chain had a little gun shape on it. He came to school that day with NO thoughts of shooting anyone but the school's zero tolerance policy against guns has now put in his mind that every time he sees a gun or thinks gun he will be in danger of shooting up a school.
Read the story on here called " What's Wrong with Guarding your Heart?"
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Wow. I just found your site. Interesting observations. As a homeschooling parent of 23 years, I saw from the other side of the fence what Heather termed "those who tend toward the law." I attended many IBLP conferences and found many of Bill Gothard's teachings very useful. I had my children read Josh Harris's books as well and we discussed them. I think they helped my kids see that they don't have to do dating the way the world does. That there is a down side and a better way.
However, what grieved my heart all those years was watching those who seemed desperate to make a religion out of an idea. The legalism was so damaging and I hurt for the children who had to live under it. I believe the damage is not from any book or curriculum. The damage comes from the hearts of those who take those ideas, and rather than sift them through the word of God and the Holy Spirit, they make them the god. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We should be able to learn from a variety of ideas and people and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us what is useful to us and what needs to be tossed.
I'm so sorry for what you went through and the scar it has left on you. But I slightly disagree that it was the teachings themselves. I think rather it was the environment and the way your family handled it that wounded you. When any idea is taken to its extreme, it will harm us. When we make "laws" out of any man-made concept we are in for trouble.
My young adult children have done well "guarding their hearts", but have many friendships with the opposite sex and have each had a little heartbreak along the way which they have learned from. We took what was wise and honorable from all we read, and applied only what God said was right for us. Isn't that the goal of all learning?
I feel sad for the author. She clearly felt condemnation and shame when the concept of courtship does not carry judgment with it. I sinned in relationships in the past and God brought me through it. Never did I feel shame or condemnation when I later stumbled across courtship-related authors. They just explained how they felt led and provided Biblical support for it. That was good enough for me and I embraced many of the concepts.
The concept of asking a woman's father for permission to propose to his daughter is a vestige of this. Why do you ask him for permission if it is irrelevant? The fact is that on some level you recognize his authority in her life.
That said, I never got fully on board with the courtship thing. I dated my fiance (with her father's blessing and oversight) for a few months, then, with her father's permission, proposed. On our wedding day, we'll have our first kiss. I love this, because our relationship can focus on getting to know one another and drawing each other toward God, not physical contact or intimacy.
I don't judge anyone else who does it differently. I don't feel pride in my "achievement." It is just awesome to see God working in our lives and to be able to honor him in the way we behave. Its a massive privilege to glorify God in any way. We don't deserve any credit. The Author of Life does.
If these kinds of concepts make you feel shame, humiliation or condemnation, consider the source and perhaps other issues present in your life or your relationship with your spouse which might be creating Strongholds for the devil in your life. Pray that God will tear down these strongholds and that He will purify and take back the ground for himself.
I feel a need to input because I have seen this article bouncing around the web for a few days now. I have given it a read and feel it is dangerously deceptive.
I do not know the author, nor her life, as she only shares out of her own experiences, and thus, I out of mine. While I would agree her motives are pure, the template of this article and interpretation is doing nothing but fear mongering and creating a myriad of half-truths.
The title of "Purity", no matter what kind, and the dating "style" of courtship should never be mixed with the word "Damaging".
I mean, seriously?! When does the bible ever say that purity is damaging? No, it says to strive for purity, and obtain it; In EVERYTHING we do, especially our thoughts!
This article is not about emotional purity or courtship, it is about how the good teachings of GOD, have been mistreated by MAN and fallen short. It is about a woman who is (or was) lacking in confidence, spiritual discernment, and the love and knowledge of her Daddy, Jesus.
SHAME is an instrument of the devil. God does not bring shame. Purity should never bring shame. If you feel ashamed of being pure, that is the devil trying to get you out of it. Trying to make you dirty.
On the contrary, you should never feel shame from making mistakes. We all do. LEARN FROM THEM.
If you give your heart and life to someone, and they aren't your spouse and it all ends or they aren't interested, and you feel damaged and broken; its because You ARE damaged. You ARE broken. Not because I say so, but because your focus isn't on Christ, its on someone you are looking to fill a void that is incapable of filling it.
Everyone will learn these things, whether they date or court. Dating and courting aren't the problem.
Pride, ugh, that's not even a legitimate argument.
You can be proud of anything. You can be proud of never sleeping before you get married. You can be proud of sleeping with 100 before you get married. Pride is a problem! Not "emotional purity" or courting!
As for these "skewed views of relationships that lead to dysfunction"....
What???!?!?
These are all examples of the enemy messing with her head! She has no understanding of spiritual warfare and is attacking a teaching wrought in her past rather than the enemy himself. These thoughts occur in EVERYBODY! at some point.
I battle with them daily being a married man. What you need is confidence to know who you are; what actions you will and won't take. I can talk to a beautiful woman normally even with "thoughts" of lust and flirtation going through my head because THEY AREN'T MY THOUGHTS! When you get all those accusations, its the enemy in your ear whispering temptations. And God doesn't let you be tempted beyond what you can bear! You can fight it. You can tell him where you stand, that your heart is pure! (unless you come in agreement with what you are thinking and actually want it.)
The devil places feelings of insecurity upon you to destroy relationships. If you can't have a normal relationship with another person because of thoughts in your head, then HE WINS!
I guess to sum up my position, lets place the target of our problems precisely where they belong, ON THE HEAD OF THE DEVIL!
Emotional purity and courtship, its not about you.
Shame, Pride, Unclean thoughts, the cross is victorious over you!
Stop attacking the teachings of other churches and lets believe that with Christ, we can reach the same destination through various methods!
If I understand your comments correctly, I would have to say I believe you have not had to come out from legalist abuse and really have not understood the battle she is in to overcome past incorrect teachings. I know, and understand her article, because I have experienced some of those issues myself.
You wrote: Purity should never bring shame. If you feel ashamed of being pure, that is the devil trying to get you out of it. Trying to make you dirty.
And I would clarify this by saying that although purity itself does not lead to shame, there is such a thing as striving for purity beyond what is necessary (such as the man who contemplated putting out his eyes, so he would no longer be tempted to lust). When we have not striven hard enough to meet a standard that we, not God, have placed, in the name of purity, then we fall short and are susceptible to Satan's accusations of sin, even though the falling short is only in our minds, not in God's sight.
I think this is something that some people struggle with (I do), and some do not (wish that was me).
However, I do like your overall message. Thank you for sharing your commments. Made me think a little. :)
Formula says, “I will follow a God that I’ve put neatly in a box, and He will give me the desired results."
That's not Formula, that's MAGICK. (Crowley spelling for a reason.)
Because in Magick/Sorcery, the mortal Sorcerer is the one in charge; he makes the proper incantations and ritual working, and the Supernatural forces/beings dance to his tune. Sorcerer says "Jump", the Supernatural Beings say "How High, Master?"
Very good point HUG!! The similarities between Gothard's system and Crowley's system are striking.
They both attempt to "give the world a new approach to life" - in direct contradiction to Christ Himself who IS new life.
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Just wanted to note that while this person's experience with "courtship" appears to have been terrible, there are others that have not had the same experience. Courtship and dating can both be good experiences if done using the Bible as a guide.
The problem is that Gothard, Doug Philips and others say that courtship is the only Godly way to do it. Christians can date or they can choose to court- they have the freedom in Christ to approach marriage either way. It is when we start to say that one is God's way, that the ugly head of legalism, and all of the elitism that goes along with it, rears its ugly head.
^^^^^true^^^^^
Thank you for this article! I was not raised by parents who followed Bill Gothard, but they were very godly, conservative, homeschooling at times (in the '80's) and I was heavily influenced by many that were influenced by Gothard's teaching. I have many of these same hang-ups as you do. I didn't realize, until just a few years ago, how much of a controlling upbringing I had, not really by my parents, but by spiritual leaders. In fact, the wording I'm seeing in Bill Gothards teachings is the same as some of what was taught me such umbrella of leadership, courtship, etc. My husband and I did modified courtship/dating, with handholding only, and looking back, I think we would have benefitted from getting to know each other deeper before marriage, rather than jumping right in. I'm wondering if Gothard's teachings have permeated Christian circles far deeper than anyone realizes.
I still feel guilty for talking to any man, no matter how above reproach and quick the conversation is. I have to talk myself out of those guilt feelings also, kind of like she mentioned in the article. Of course, I will always think balance and appropriateness is very important, but some of the guilt I feel is completely ridiculous. I remember trying a much more friendly church and being rebuked by a teenager who wasn't used to that behavior and was truly offended that I would not greet him. I hadn't meant to be rude, just careful. It came across really wrong.
Thank you for so much for sharing.
I REALY think this idea is flawed and id be more than willing to debate that with anyone who would stand on this opinion it is just a lie based on truth and those are the most poisonous....
On the one hand I don't regret certain decisions I made in the area of purity, and ATI (along with Joshua Harris) did play a role in that. On the other hand, there was so much unnecessary guilt, so many severe restrictions when it came to interacting with the opposite sex, that while I wasn't wounded from a broken heart, I was wounded from unnecessary guilt, legalism, shame, self-righteousness, and missed opportunities for friendships with great guys over many years.
I remember BG saying not to look at guys in the eyes .... he said "if a fella tries to look you in the eyes, look down, otherwise you might fall in love with him". I thought this was a very important revelation, and did my best to avoid deep eye gazes with guys for many years. :/ Apparently the guys got the message, too, because they avoided eye contact with girls altogether. I tried to have normal conversations with some ATI guys at my church and they would literally look away when they spoke to me. It was so awkward. Mostly, it made me feel dirty and shameful, like an object of lust and scorn.
It was until I attended a (secular) university and met normal Christian guys that I experienced how pure and wholesome friendships with guys could be. I was treated with so much kindness and respect by two brothers in Christ once . . . that it actually moved me to tears. They treated me like I had value and worth; completely unrelated to sexuality. That was a big step in my healing as God reframed my view of Him and His church a little at a time... ATI over-sexualized everything in its attempt to eradicate sex.
I completely agree with this statement. I was a little boy (3) when we enrolled in the ATI program and I remember feeling like everything was over sexualized. I felt assualted and disgusted at times even as a child! I always wondered if there was more to focus on in education other than sexual purity. I mean good grief. Seriously. I even remeber telling my mom something along these lines.
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This is such a great article! We attended some IBLP and Advanced Seminars and decided we'd do courtship as a family when I was in my teens. Well, that lasted until I fell in love with my now husband of 15 years.
The amount of anger and manipulation that went on during those times all makes sense now. My dad was not happy when I talked to the young man. He would be like "You talked to him for a long time after church." It was all such a confused mess and I know my husband is the man God wanted me to have, because he stayed by and waited for me through all the craziness.
Only recently have I had total freedom. Scripture I've known all my life came back to me in a special way - there is one God and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. My dad was not my mediator between God and I. That's Jesus' job. It was like a burden I didn't know was there was lifted. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone, but there was such freedom in that. I was responsible for the decision I made to get married (I was 23).
I married my husband with complete disapproval from my dad and had all kinds of things said, for example: "you're going to be a rebellious wife." I did what I knew in my heart was what God wanted me to do. I just want to make it clear that with God's help, I harbor no bitterness towards my father now. It was by God's grace that I forgave him and moved on with a full, blessed, wonderful life!
Your 3rd point particularly hit home for me! I remember my first job away from home, they went to take my picture for my ID badge, but the camera didn't work. We had to go to HR for them to take my photo with their webcam. This meant I had to ride in a car alone with a man for the first time in my life (large company, HR was about a block away from where my building was). I was so worried that someone would see me and think something impure was happening. I was nervous the entire 3 minute car ride.
It is such a guild ridden philosophy and I agree that it does affect my relationships even today. I still have a hard time being friends with men. Even my own brother in law at their house. If my sister leaves the room and I am left with just him, I still get a little self-conscious or feel like I should follow her out.
I did lose my purity at 21. And I remember thinking that if I said "yes" to one guy, I had no right to say no to another because I had nothing to save anymore. I was used and invaluable. It lead to a lot of bad choices within the next few years. Only now, nearly 10 years later, do I realize what a horrible philosophy this was. If the worth of a woman was based solely on her purity, (emotional or physical) God would have never used the women that he did to bring us a Savior.
Fear, fear, fear. His teachings were built on fear. If you don't get that, you're still in it.
I'm sorry for your experiences and am sorry you miss quoted Josh Harris. You missed I think you understood his book.i think you need to go back and retread his book. It saddens me to see a great book & a great an being torn down when it has and could help so many.
I've read that Josh Harris distanced himself from his own book.
http://www.joshharris.com/2009/02/what_ive_learned_since_i_kissed_dating_goodbye.php
The deal is that when you are taught " Gothard " control dating methods at a very young age, you don't get to have a wife. You get your Self Esteem whipped out of you because Gothard preaches that feelings, or depression, or self love is a Cardinal Sin.
I'm 44, and never have been even able to put together a relationship, let alone a marriage. When you can't look a woman in the eye, and you have no love or self respect, then there is no way a woman can be around you. All of those rules, with extreme pain and fear attached to them, make you a quivering joke of a man when you're in front of a woman.
So all of the women on this thread should feel lucky and blessed that you are able to marry and wake up in your 20's.
But the same thing happened to women too...women your age who still can't look a man in the eye comfortably, never married, and feel themselves to be a 'quivering joke' of who they might have been. Perhaps RG's next mission should be a matchmaking service! Don't give up. Blessings to you as you heal.
Scott's post brings up a good point: young men are harmed by this legalistic lunacy too, dare I say moreso than young women, because this stuff gets dumped on us at a time when we're in our "prime".
I was at work several months ago and was thinking about the depression and anger that plagued me throughout much of my teen years, and I think much of it can be linked to Jesus's words about lust in Matthew 5:27 and 28. I often felt guilty and angry when I felt any kind of sexual urge, tingle or emotion, and since adolescence is a time when we guys feel that frequently, there was a ton of anger and guilt. It wasn't until fairly recently that I saw a minister on TV--Creflo Dollar, I believe-- teach that the purpose of those passages wasn't to make us feel guilty or repress our sexuality, but to emphasize God's grace and to make us realize how much we need Him in our daily lives. Jesus could also have been "showing up" the Pharisees in the crowd by showing them that they weren't nearly as good at following the Law as they thought they were, and also showing them how it felt to be crushed under it. It was like, "Gee, NOW someone tells me."
There aren't enough adjectives to describe the spiritual, emotional and mental damage this has caused. Others who have experienced the same thing have likened our thought processes and feelings to adults who were victims of childhood sex abuse, and I'd be hard-pressed to disagree. The self-loathing it brought about caused us to hate ourselves, others, and God Himself.
It's only been in recent years that I think He's been directing me to a place of healing; needless to say, He's got His work cut out for Him.
Chris, you has posted some marvelous thoughts. Genesis 3 makes it clear that sin has alienated us from God and man from woman. Jesus came to cancel the curse, but the guilt focus merely keeps our minds on the alienation, not on the redemption. YOU can see this in Augustine and throughout human experience. Gothard did not invent the abusiveness of guilt.
Jesus pointed us to Genesis 2, NOT Genesis 3. If His victory is insufficient to redeem our natural sexuality, then He was being most cruel to say "what God has joined together, let not man put asunder". Most of us are called to marriage, by the design of God. The redemption is found in trusting Jesus to sanctify a natural attraction and to form a biblical covenant marriage. "And such were some of you, but you are washed..."! I encouraged all three of my sons to memorize I Cor. 6:9-end. I wish I had emphasized: But You Are Washed. John Paul II's Theology of the Body (and anything Christopher West has written about it) is a good place to start recovering the Grace of human sexuality. I can love my wife in a holy communion of persons because God designed me to be a spouse, imaging His fruitful, faithful, full and free spousal love. Hosea 2:16 "you will call me Ishi".
Chris, the " Self Loathing " thing was something I thought only went on in my head. Gothard's teachings leave a young man with so many rules and shame when it comes to girls we couldn't look them in the eye with out the " Punishment Syndrome " kicking in. Yes, I just made that up..
You punish yourself whilst talking to a woman, and it has always been confusing as to why, but now with RG it is clear.
The teachings make EVERYTHING a young man desires a SIN! So of course you're sinning when around girls, when you're 14. So many hormones, and feelings, you can't stop them. But with good ol Gothard in your head, you wind up alone.
The hard thing now is to see peoples lives on face book. Druggies, trouble makers, drop outs, and losers from high school posing with their sweet wives and smiling children.
Why can't I have what these guys didn't even try to get, and they have it in abundance? One word, Gothard...
When your basic needs are defined as sin, from child hood, you wind up avoiding them.
I hear you, Scott. I really do. But as P.L. said, you never know. God's delivering me from the tremendous burden, and He can do it for you too.
Thank you
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This article is not biblical and there is no scripture backing any of this up. Joshua Harris' book applied scripture and was able to back up what he was saying. .
I recently stumbled across this site and have spent several evenings absorbed in the articles and posts. I attended a conservative evangelical Bible college in Canada for two years in the mid-70's. Looking back at my transcript this evening, I observed that I received an "A" in Basic Youth Conflicts. (Some of you will understand the humour when I say, "a better student would have received an A+".) I can say with certainty that although the idea of courtship was not formalized at that time, the same seeds were intentionally sown and vigorously cultivated in our minds. This article resonates with me because it describes many of the struggles I faced. I have worked through a large portion of them over the years, but I am very aware that the shame, the 'formulaic living' and the fear of imperfection that permeated our lives had profound impacts on many of my friends.
Ironically,these days, I often find myself in a position where my conservative evangelical friends seem certain that I have become dangerously liberal; my liberal Christian friends are concerned that I am far too conservative. Old friends from those days have scattered far and wide, and I have rarely felt it was possible for new friends to understand all that went on in my life in those days. Perhaps I have found a place of understanding here.
I wish grace and peace to all those who struggle to make sense of their experience as they journey toward healing. May hope and joy truly be abundant in all our lives.
Hi, Hope.
I'm convinced that God can bring like-minded, and like-wounded, people together for comfort and counsel.
And the fact that you've shed those old acquaintances like an old skin is probably a good thing.
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Just as a heads up-- I totally agree. However the Ludy's have a pretty good perspective. I think in the book "When Dreams Come True", they talk about how they did in fact believe that they were "damaged goods", but that wasnt true-- they were believing a lie. They were made whole and new and perfectly lovable regardless of their past, because of their focus on having the love of God. That is grace.
Other than that, I really agree with this article, and can say what she is saying is very true an many of our lives who were raised in this "world".
Unfortunatley, if you see what the Ludy's are teaching at Ellerslie nowadays, you may not agree with them anymore. I think they have lost the plot big time and are teaching unbiblical things about guy-girl relationships that they themselves didn't even adhere to. How they built their relationship in "When dreams come true" is almost sinning in comparison with what they are teaching now. You can google "Truth About Ellerslie Mission Society | Facebook" and see what some of the students that attended their school are writing there. It makes your hair stand up on end. PS, if you look at my story way at the bottom, you will see that I read almost all their books, so I am not giving an uninformed opinion.
Thank you so much for writing this article.
My now-boyfriend and I both read this as we struggled with liking each other, but thinking of our feelings as "inordinate affections" and thinking we had to focus on God, and that that meant not having crushes.
We thought we were sinning by wanting to be with one another, and that we couldn't possibly have each other and God at the same time. It's a very long story (especially when my boyfriend tells it :P), but basically, thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. It freed us from these teachings and the guilt we associated with them, and while neither of us were brought up in a cult, we were falling into some of their teachings and riding ourselves with guilt over false rules.
I've found that God gives us principles, generally, and not rules like the Pharisees made. Though some people may try to supplement God's rules with helpful and sometimes not-so-helpful suggestions and rules, in the end all we need to follow is Christ. He knows best, even when people seem to teach "Godly" rules that aren't necessarily in the Bible, but are extrapolated by humans.
Some books I'd suggest to young people would be "Young and In Love" by Ted Cunningham, and "Getting Serious about Getting Married" by Debbie Maken. They really encouraged me to pursue a healthy, functioning relationship, and reaffirmed that, no, liking someone does not mean that you're sinning. If that person is taking the place of God, then that may be an issue, but the feelings and emotions themselves are not sinful. God designed us to seek marriage!
As my boyfriend's mentor put it, "How do you know God didn't give you those feelings for a purpose?"
This was a great summary. While I see some value in courtship and guarding your heart, the new purity stance that some believers have nowadays is so extreme that it makes people feel guilty for wanting a spouse or for feeling attracted to the opposite sex. Those are natural desires that God has put in our heart.
I will never forget; I was 26 and seeing a guy from a very strict IFB church. We were standing together in the parking lot alone after evening service just talking, and some woman I didn't even know rode up next to us in her van and lectured he and I for 30 minutes on how we are sinning before God, the man I was dating won't be with me on judgement day, how we needed a chaparone to stand in that parking lot, etc. Mind you, I had been on my own for years and never had my parents say stuff like that to me, let alone some woman I didn't even know. I was incredibly insulted and was about to tell her where to go, but I didn't out of respect for my BF's family who attended that church. The woman then proceeded to tell me I needed to be like her daughter who was in a Godly relationship which was blessed by God for it's purity; mind you her 16, YES 16 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER was "courting" a 27 year old man I had graduated high school with! Needless to say, people like that just turn non-believers off. Fortunately, I was already a believer with strong sense that this woman was a little off her rocker, but some of the IFB beliefs are simply over the top!
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I agree with you. I was also raised that way, and I am seeing a big problem with our young people, and also because boys can't express any kind of emotion, I see them going to the porn sites, which they can view in private and making things even worse.
They are so confused on what a relationship should be. So many rules on not what to do.
That we are creating unhealthy relationships.
"1 + 1= 2. Emotional purity + Biblical courtship = Godly marriage. But life doesn’t work that way. You can do everything “right” and your life can still go wrong. You can do everything “wrong” and still be blessed. Rain falls on the good and evil. Time and chance happen to them all. People who follow the courtship formula still get divorced. Or stuck in terrible marriages. Courtship is not the assurance of a good marriage. Life is too complicated for that. Love involves vulnerability. When you choose to love, you are choosing to accept risking a broken heart. No formula can protect you. Life involves risk."
wow, this really resonates with me. It's about my life AND my marriage... thank you
Gothardism is the "common core" way of learning christianity.
I know this is an old article, but I can't help but comment. I had the same ideas in this article when I read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Boy Meets Girl, and Not Even a Hint. Let's just say that everything Darcy mentioned in this article I remember from Josh Harris' books. Never read the Ludys and kind of glad I didn't. I also watched EVERY episode of the Duggar's TV show for a while. When I went to college, I told a "chapel date" that I was scared of dating. In reality, I was scared of guys period. Partly because with the courtship mindset the way I saw it presented, you have to marry the first person you date, and well, I got a wake-up call from that at college. It wasn't until I was home from college that I broke free of some things. Namely, 19 Kids and Counting. When I saw how Ben and Jessa and Jill and Derick's courtships were being done, I stopped watching the show. Glad I did. The other reason I was scared of guys was because of the example my dad set. He is emotionally, mentally, and spiritually abusive.
I wish I knew Darcy personally. I like a gal that tells it like it is and doesn't mince words.
I came across one of Leslie Ludy's book when I was in varsity in 2007. It spoke to my heart, because I really had a desire to honor God in all aspects of my life. I got all her and Eric's other books after that and devoured them. I grew a lot closer in my relationship with God, but I did not realize as a 21/22 year old the future damage these dating messages were going to do. I was a beautiful, spunky and out-there little lady, who had loads of friends, took part in everything... with no boyfriend - just no-one measured up to the Ludy standard. My now-husband had a few girlfriends before me, while I had zero experience. I have never made out with a guy before my husband - not even to mention sex. I am not saying that there is something wrong with that, but at the age of 25 I had absolutely no idea that my body was going to start experiencing such intense sexual desires when making out with a man. (I believe in saving sex for marriage, but was OK with the kissing part - not knowing then what THAT does to your body!) I did not know a man could experience erections when he made out with a woman! When I felt something moving "down there" for the first time, I got the fright of my life! Because we were serious about getting married, I allowed more and more physically until we did end up having sex before we said "I do". And once we started, we didn't stop, even though we wanted to. Please don't get me wrong - I am not blaming these teachings for my lack of self-control and disobedience to God, but I have been holding back my desires for so long that when I finally met a guy I fell head over heels in love with, I just went with it, even though I felt super guilty all the time.
I have never experienced fights with a guy before my husband. Where he eventually learned in previous relationships that the relationship isn't over after a fight (even if you said some pretty mean stuff to each other), I feel scared of divorce as hell after every major fight - especially because I am not the best communicator and things come out totally wrong when I say them. I constantly live in fear that I have hurt our relationship beyond repair even if he seems fine.
The situation is worsened by my anxiety disorder, which obviously did not surface as a result of the books, but I believed it gave me a distorted picture of God and love and I constantly got panic attacks, believing I am going to hell and am lost beyond God's mercy. With the help of psychologists and medication, I am now OK and I am happily married. My husband really is a great guy!
This is however, not the message I want to raise my children with. I still believe sex should be saved for marriage, but I want to be very open with my girls (if I have any) about what happens to a guy's and girl's body when they experience sexual feelings for the first time. I want them to be prepared and not feel ashamed of it and I believe that knowledge will give them the wisdom to know where to draw the line physically. Emotionally, I want them to learn how to sort stuff out in a relationship and enter marriage with the correct ideas of communication - not a fear that the preservation of the relationship relies on you being scared, trying to do everything to a T to avoid conflict.
I really do not know where to put this comment, but after reading all the stuff on this site about how BG could use the bible verses to prove all the things he put forth about his way of living being god's way... I figure you can use any part of the bible to prove just about anything.
1. there are motorcycles in the bible and they were loud...”Joshua's Triumph was heard throughout the land"
2. Baseball is also in the holy book and God must have really liked it a lot to start the whole thing out with...."in the Big Inning!"
3. Dating IS IN the bible… God must have allowed dating since this verse seems to suggest He set up the dates and did not want the parents to know when…. Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or DATES the Father has set by his own authority.”
To Susan^^^^^ I major-league LIKE your jokes^^^^^ :D :D :D
jokes? what jokes? My whole belief system is based on these "truths"! Not only did Joshua ride a motorcycle but Joshua Judges Ruth!
^^^^^:D^:D^:D^:D^:D^:D^:D