My heart is pretty full right now. When I posted my article on this subject, I had no idea it would go where it did. And the stories just keep pouring in! For some of you, it was just nice to know that you aren’t alone in your struggles. For others, it confirmed what you’ve always thought on the matter. And for many, it’s left you thinking “Now what?”
I have been cautioned not to “jump from one ditch into the other” but I think that is a false dichotomy. There’s a very wide road between those two ditches. Just because I decry the problems with courtship, doesn’t mean that I think promiscuity to be the answer. The casual dating that our parents were trying to get away from has its own set of damaging behaviors and issues. What we need to do is find a balance. How do we conduct our relationships in a way that honors God, honors the other person, and honors ourselves? That allows God to be God and lead in our lives, write our love stories?
I am not going to give you another formula. I don’t think one exists, actually. But the scripture is full of teachings on how to interact as children of God. Every principle we need to have God-honoring relationships are outlined in the Bible. These have been called the “one-another” verses. I challenge each of you to get a concordance and look up the phase “one-another” and see how many instructions there are in the New Testament regarding our interactions with each other. These verses will become your standard for how you conduct all your relationships, regardless of what those relationships are. They are the fleshing out of what it means to love God with all you are and to love your neighbor as yourself. The reason we follow these verses, the very crux of the issue, is summed up in Jesus’ words “By this will all men know that You are my disciples, if you love one another”.
Any relationship in your life will be God-honoring if these one-another verses are the standard under which you operate. Marriage, dating, parent-child, friend, and sibling relationships should all be conducted with these teachings in mind. Because when all is said and done, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, children of God, and every other relationship we have is secondary to this.
Consider verses like these:
"I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." Ephesians 4:1-3
"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with one another and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in our hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." Colossians 3:12-17
"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." Phillipians 2:1-4
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited." Romans 12:9-16
If this is the standard under which we are supposed to operate our relationships, how much more should we use this standard in our dating relationships? In our marriages? With the people who we are most intimate with?
One-anothering….it’s what being children of God is all about.
If this seems rather vague and general to you….good! It’s supposed to be. Because intertwined within following the one-another verses, is God writing your own story. Making it personal, individual, specific. I think He just likes to be creative in how He shows His glory and love to men. If you don’t believe me, read your Bible. A fiery furnace. A lion’s den. Talking bushes and donkeys. Healing blindness with spit and mud. Manna from heaven. Your story of God’s grace and love toward you is no different. Let him be God and don’t try to make formulas to control His working in your life.
This might seem scary, this stepping out in faith. Because it requires acting upon something that we can’t see the end of or know where we might be taken in the mean time. What I said earlier bears repeating here: …formula is the opposite of faith. Formula says “I will follow a God that I’ve put neatly in a box, to give me the desired results”. Faith says “I will follow You even when I can’t see where I’m going, even when the world is collapsing around me”. Formula says “I will not risk, I will be in control of my future”. Faith says “I will risk everything, I will trust. Whom I cannot see, surrender what I cannot control anyway.” Formula is the assurance of things planned for, the conviction of things seen. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). But we are afraid. So we control instead of trust. We don’t take a step unless we can see where we’re going. We build neat little formulas and say “THIS will keep me safe!” Then we blame God when our puny formulas fail.
Any system or teaching that promises a safe, packaged life is promising more than what Christ promised His followers. Actually, it would be promising the opposite. Jesus, in no unspecific terms, told his disciples that if they followed Him, their lives would be anything but safe. If He was trying to teach a prosperity gospel, He failed epically. He promised torture, tribulation, hatred from others, abandonment, ridicule, and all kinds of fun things. But He also promised abundant life, blessings, and intimacy with the God-who-is-love. He never promised ease and safety, but He did promise it would be worth it. I am very suspect of any teaching that promises the opposite of what Jesus Himself promised.
So love much. Risk sometimes. Step out and ask a girl you admire for a coffee date. Invest in other people. Give, expecting nothing in return. Bear one another’s burdens. Love one another. Tell your story. Be honest, sincere, and genuine. Give abundant grace. Go talk to him. Be friendly. Be kind and compassionate. Abide in Him. Follow our crazy God. Live well. Live Jesus.
EDITOR NOTE: If you are a reader who is unfamiliar with the specific courtship teachings of Bill Gothard and IBLP (the perspective from which Darcy writes), you can find more articles by clicking here.
"So love much. Risk sometimes."
This I think is important. The fear of "giving away pieces of your heart" is simply wrong. There is nothing wrong with loving. I can't say this enough. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LOVING. Sure, sometimes it hurts, but what is that saying, "no pain, no gain"? Without risking the pain of a broken heart you may never find the joy of a awesome relationship with a wonderful mate. So yes, love much, and be willing to take a chance.
I agree. It is NEVER wrong to love someone. If it isn't meant to be, eventually you will fall out of love and move on, and your experience was a very good, maturing experience. It does NOT mean you are 'used goods.'
Very well said!
…formula is the opposite of faith. Formula says “I will follow a God that I’ve put neatly in a box, to give me the desired results”. Faith says “I will follow You even when I can’t see where I’m going, even when the world is collapsing around me”. Formula says “I will not risk, I will be in control of my future”. Faith says “I will risk everything, I will trust. Whom I cannot see, surrender what I cannot control anyway.” Formula is the assurance of things planned for, the conviction of things seen. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). But we are afraid. So we control instead of trust. We don’t take a step unless we can see where we’re going. We build neat little formulas and say “THIS will keep me safe!”
ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL.
I enjoyed reading this and especially loved the contrasts between formulas and faith. What concerns is that, although many homeschoolers were/are caught in the web of deceit that is ATI - most homeschoolers are very well adjusted, discerning, productive members of churches and of their communities. When people are critiquing their legalistic, cultic upbringings, I wish they'd make note that their experience is not the norm for most homeschoolers. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. :-) And again - great article!!
Lauren, I only have one caution for you: not everything is as it seems. Please remember that when you see all these "well adjusted, discerning, productive members of churches and of their communities". I think that most of us here would be the first to tell you that that's exactly how everyone saw us and our families. But the truth that nobody ever saw was that we were just as broken, just as ugly, just as damaged and dysfunctional as everyone else. We were just better at hiding it. Now, when I see large conservative homeschool families, my first thought is "what is hiding under the surface of those smiles?" Because I know all too well the pain of looking perfect on the outside while dying on the inside.
So true! As an ATI survivor myself, I can attest to the truth of this statement.
The whole purpose seemed to be to appear as "well adjusted, discerning, productive members of churches and of communities" instead of actually having a real relationship with God!!!
"Now, when I see large conservative homeschool families, my first thought is "what is hiding under the surface of those smiles?" Because I know all too well the pain of looking perfect on the outside while dying on the inside."
I don't mean to diminish your pain nor your insight, but your statement, rather, your thought is quite presumptuous. It is impossible for a man to know at first glance what is going on in another man's heart.
Here I need to stop myself because I've become presumptuous myself. I don't know your motivation in asking the question, "What is hiding under the surface of those smiles?" I presumed that your motivation was negative because distrust and suspicion bred by pain has caused me to ask that question before.
While I apologize for my hypocrisy, I hope that my thoughts are helpful.
It doesn't have to be negative. It could be genuine contentment and happiness or a whole lot of pain hiding behind those smiles. The issue is that a smile and an image are just that....a smile and an image. *The state of a person's heart cannot be judged by their outward appearance.* Especially when that person is raised in a cult that worships image and even teaches songs to young children declaring that your smile will tell people if your love Jesus or not. My statement above was in the context of someone declaring "but they look so perfectly happy!".
What Darcy said. The homeschoolers that are involved with ATI and similar cult like organizations, EXCEL at hiding bullcrap, and being deceitful, especially the parents. I've only recently began to discover that there are homeschooling families outside of ATI, that are really decent, REAL people, who do not pretend.
Thank you for talking about this both in the last article and this one as well. As a daughter in a "recovering family", I have been facing thoughts on courtship/dating and recognizing that courtship is not a failproof formula- as my two "failed courtships" can attest to. And why are they called that- I wonder? Is it failing to discover that you are not supposed to marry the person you are in a relationship with? Trying to figure out HOW we truly develop a meaningful, and real relationship that may lead to marriage and that honors God is not as simple as I once thought it was. And it takes risk! Thanks for reminding us that the risk is worth it, and that we have to walk by faith, not formulas.
R, thanks for commenting.
There IS no fail-proof formula.
However, there IS a fail-proof GOD. And He IS on your side, not waiting to condemn you the moment you 'mess up.'
The most terrifying night in my life, to date, was when I realized that by expressing my feelings/plans/desires to a close friend, communicating the desire to take our friendship to a higher level, with marriage in view... I was putting myself out of control of the situation and God's grace was more than sufficient for me, whatever the outcome of that conversation might be.
I have been married to that close friend, who is a blessing I could never deserve, for 10 years now.
My marriage, such as it is, is not due to following Mr.G's 'Courtship Principles', but is wholly due to my abandoning my own plans and schemes and throwing myself upon the mercy of a loving God.
This reply is for R, as well. I'm glad to see you don't consider your courtships "failed." Sounds like they worked out well. My only courtship didn't end in marriage, and I've always thought it served its purpose. Next time around, I dated the man who would become my husband and the father of my 2- soon to be 3- kiddos. Best wishes as you become the woman the kind of man you want to marry wants to marry. :)
Read a good article on this recently by Susan Olasky: http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18134
The idea of courtship goes beyond ATI into the broader homeschooling community and, though I know of many success stories including my own, I know of many frustrations with this concept as well, especially as people get older. I've been married for over six years, but it's still a subject I wonder about, having watched my sister deal with the Christian dating world. I feel blessed to have found my husband at college, though when I say our courtship was a success, I have to qualify it a little. Neither of us enjoyed the "courting" process much and felt relieved when we got to the engagement stage. Even then, we both felt much more comfortable when we were finally married. I know some of that may be normal, but I feel like the idea of courtship and the pressure it puts on relationships stole some of the joy we should have had during that time.
I think the idea of parental involvement that the concept of courtship promoted is good, though perhaps the specific methods mandated by most "courtship rules" aren't always necessary. (I mean, I can understand a Dad wanting a guy to ask him if it's ok to date his 18-year-old daughter who's still living at home, but that gets a little ridiculous when it's a 30-year-old who's been on her own for more than 10 years.) However, as this article points out, it shouldn't just be the parents of the individuals, but other believers in the church as well who disciple younger men and women, individually and as couples, and teach them about good relationships and marriages.
Great thoughts! I read once in one of Madeleine L'Engle's books that "life is like a sonnet" we are given the form, but what and how we write it is entirely up to us! Sometimes I wish God had given us an instruction book - it would make decisions easier - but I thin he is more concerned about the heart than the actions. Great thoughts!
Follow your crazy God?
These "one-another" principles doesn't mean you can "freely" express interest and emotional efervescence whenever you feel like it. And it is said withing the context of church's community fellowship, not on one to one relationships between one single man and one single woman.
But I guess you're too emotional and rebelious to guard balance and wisdom and not to impose your understanding on biblical texts. if exegesis of the text is done correctly, than you know how to apply the truth they teach correctly.
And I see your friend Hannah has absolutely no clue what it means Christ's Lordship in practical ways. She seems to believe that the natural desires are to be expressed and fulfilled, instead of being subordinated to godly principle living. That's exactly the world's philosophy - go out there and fulfill your (God-given) needs and desires. Why being moral? Or why being under God's authority in the fulfillment of your legitimate needs and desires? Just go and fulfill them, express them without control - they're natural so they are good.
Pitty!
He is not a tame Lion, e!!!!! God is soveriegn; you can't disect him with formulas and "principles" He wouldn't be God if you could!
Mind if I throw my two cents in here?
You seem to be under the assumption that merely expressing interest in someone is somehow a sin. Actually, what Paul says in 1 Cor is that if anyone burns with lust, he should get married or else he will give into temptation. I'm curious as to how you expect anyone to get married if you think it's a sin to tell someone that you're interested in them. What you are doing, e, is exactly what the Pharisees did: you set up a "fence" to keep you away from sin (in this case, sexual sin). Then you judge anyone who crosses the fence, even though God never said it was a sin to cross the fence. And as for "exegesis of the text done correctly", sure, there are plenty of Biblical passages where the meaning of the passage is obvious. Yet, there are many more that are somewhat ambiguous. There isn't even a consensus on the correct way to do exegesis, so don't act like every person who doesn't agree with you is "doing it wrong". That's called arrogance, e, and the Bible pretty explicitly calls that a sin.
Who is the Hannah referred to, here? Was there a "Hannah" in the article that I don't remember? I did say something that could certainly be misconstrued that way, but the comment chronology is not quite adding up ;p
I think I said that I don't believe in repression, but in healthy, [God-honoring] expression. Is repression more your style? Remind me not to be around, when it bubbles out sideways.
God has given us richly all things to enjoy.
Thank you for this article, well written and a nice summary.
My friend showed me your article on "How the Teachings of Emotional Purity and Courtship Damage Healthy Relationships". I was blown away by how similar your views matched to the ones I had been struggling with. It was put ever so clearly. Something I haven't been able to communicate very well in the past years.
This article above added even more clarity to my thoughts on this topic as well. So thanks!
I'm hoping to show this to my parents some day so that they'll actually understand my views once and for all.
Keep doing what you do.
Thank you for your kind comment! IT was much appreciated today. :)
Darcy, Thank you for your posts AND your follow up of the responses! I've been reading quite a bit and mulling over my kids attitudes towards the opposite sex and figuring out who to marry. I think I'm going to put a reread of IKDG on my list for this summer and these posts and IKDG on my older two kids' lists. Should make for some ROUSING conversations this summer! ;-D.
This whole thing has also made me realize how much Bill Gothard has impacted our lives through others around us. There are the obvious folks that we have flitted away from and then there are less obvious folks.... Hhmmm.
Shawna, if you're interested, I compiled a whole post of other people's stories on this subject on my blog here: http://darcysheartstirrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/emotional-purity-and-courtship-take-2.html
It's good to read the perspectives of others, I think. Especially people who have been there done that. It may help to avoid the same pit-falls they warn against.
Pingback : How the Teachings of Emotional Purity and Courtship Damage Healthy Relationships | Recovering Grace
Already read them. That post is on my list of things I want the kids to consider. I'm a little angry, right now, that even though our family avoided Bill so many of our friends, pastors, revival groups, etc. quietly slid this stuff in. We've been more exposed than We realized 2-3 weeks ago....
Exposed to, but questioning, wondering why we didn't fit, sorting out what was and wasn't Bill's stuff, wondering where the current pastors at our church stand.... Seeing pieces of it coming from a family ministry or two we've listened to, realizing that home school curriculum we have used in the past or thought we might use next year has issues,etc. It is a big ball of wax and we are on the outer edge of OUTSIDE. Can't imagine what the families who were closely involved have had to wade through!
Thankyou a thousand times over for both of your articles. I'm an adult Christian now approaching 30 still suffering the repercussions of being subjected to the books of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and "When God Writes Your love story". Although, I initually believe God does write your love story, I think that story is one you have to discover on your own without being told what to do. I wish I'd known 15 years ago the complete BS of being told to keep your heart back but I've not let that stop me from loving as many people as possible. Including other guy friends who I have sized up was my mate and prayed over the whole time we were friends. I'm hoping this will serve as ground work for me being liberated to serve the Lord more and let Him lead me in all areas of relationships without wondering or worrying if I've been "flirting" with someone or what it might mean to be alone with a man if you are not "together". I'm super excited to crumple up like a wadded piece of paper all the formulas I've been taught. I feel like this weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Bless you for coming out and saying what you've said here. I whole heartedly agree with both articles.
I appreciate the spirit of this article a bit more than the first. I recently read a great quote on Pinterest that said, "Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate." I thought this article was more of a "promoting" type article. I say this because I am a mom with a couple of young children and I was considering the ATI curriculum. I was advised to look into the reviews and came across this website. Most of the articles on this site seemed to "bash" what they didn't like (which to a degree I understand) but it wasn't helpful to someone like myself who is considering it. Because of the "bashing" perspective of the articles, the articles just came across as bitter, as if life hadn't worked out the way they had hoped, or they had married someone their parents didn't agree with, so they were justifying their choices by bashing ATI. This article seemed less bitter than some.
You quoted, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace." May I urge all here to forgive ATI?" Instead of rehashing all the wrong they have done to you, is it possible to put it aside? I understand wanting to warn others, but I think allowing the Holy Spirit to do that would be good. Just tell them to be in prayer about it and leave the stories out because while I am not questioning the voracity of each story, it becomes gossip. God is more than capable of taking care of those who seek after His wisdom without negative stories from anyone else.
To suggest that former ATI students who have been harmed by the program should not tell their stories, and simply pray that prospective ATI families would allow "the Holy Spirit to do that" is just silly.
First, it assumes that the Holy Spirit cannot or would not use human actors to accomplish His purposes. Scripture is full of examples of people who took bold action to accomplish God's objectives. Did Jesus simply pray that the moneychangers in the Temple grounds would come to realize their error? No.
The stories on Recovering Grace are important to share because they are evidence of the fruit of the ATI program. As you mentioned, this site exists in part to warn people of the dangers of the ATI program that many former students have observed and experienced. A claim unsupported by evidence is not credible. Merely claiming that the ATI program is a dangerous program without explaining why or how is also not a credible warning. Is a plaintiff in a lawsuit likely to be successful merely by making a claim that he should win, praying that the judge or jury will be lead by the Holy Spirit to reach the right conclusion? No. She's going to have to produce evidence to prove her case. The stories are important to illustrate the how and why the ATI program is full of unbiblical teachings, and can lead to dangerous and unintended consequences.
If you see someone about to step out into the street in front of an oncoming bus of which they were not aware, would you pray that the Holy Spirit would lead them to see the oncoming bus? Of course not. You would say something like "look out for the bus!" If you were teaching someone to look both ways before crossing the street, showing how someone has been injured by getting hit by a bus can provide motivation to look both ways before crossing the street. For many of us ATI students, we have seen the dangers that the ATI program has caused, and are telling our stories because we have been hit by the bus, and we want others to see the dangers involved.
Sure this sometimes sounds like bitterness toward the bus, but remember that painful stories are can be difficult to tell, and difficult to read an hear.
Second, most of the articles on Recovering Grace are NOT gossip. Gossip occurs when two ore more people talk about the business of a third person outside the presence of that third person. Most of the stories on Recovering Grace are not stories of others: they are first-person written accounts of authors' own experiences. That's not gossip, it's testimony.
I am an adult now in my 30s, and I spent over a dozen years growing up in the ATI program. I am not particularly bitter about my experience in ATI, but I can confidently say that the program can be very harmful to the long-term spiritual, social, educational, and emotional development of the students who are enrolled in this program. I would NEVER EVER EVER enroll my children in ATI, and you will find the vast majority of former students who grew up in the program, and are now adults (ie: late 20s, 30s, and 40s) would say the same thing.
People share their stories here not because they want to bash, but but because they want to support their warnings about the ATI program with real evidence of the fruit of this program. As someone who is considering the program, I hope it is evidence that you will strongly consider as you decide whether to enroll.
You mentioned that some articles come across as bashing. What specifically do you mean by bashing, and where on this site have you seen something like that? I personally haven't seen Recovering Grace bashing Bill Gothard; it seems to be mostly people telling their stories to serve as a warning to those considering ATI. If you could cite articles that come off as bashing, please do.
"Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate."
Not even Jesus, Paul, or the other great men and women of the NT followed that principle. Have your read Matthew 23 or Galations or 1 Corinthians or Romans 1 or James or Jude lately? And that's not even getting into the OT prophets or David's Psalms. Where there is wrong, it needs to be "bashed" and called out and declared wrong. Where there is damage, it needs to be addressed. Where there is abusive teachings that contradict the grace and gospel of Jesus and bring people into bondage, they need to be condemned. We can't live our lives always happy and cheerful and positive and ignore what is sad, evil, and negative.
Oh honey.... 'I understand wanting to warn others, but I think allowing the Holy Spirit to do that would be good.' Leaving out the stories because it becomes gossip?
According to this logic, we shouldn't preach the gospel of Christ, but let the Holy Spirit lead people to Him. How would we prove Jesus? By telling the stories.
Another example I read somewhere. Suppose you were standing near a community pool and watched as a truck pulled up to the pool, drained it, and refilled it with acid. You watch in horror as the truck pulls away and a family comes up to the pool, excited and ready to jump in for a swim.. what should you do? Scream, holler, beat on the fence, CLIMB over the fence and drag them away if need be, to warn them of the death in the pool.
While this example may be a bit extreme, if we did not offer our personal experiences to the world, how could we expect them to believe us, that we are speaking the truth, if we refuse to tell them our experiences? It would look very suspicious, and ironically, look more like bitterness and lies than actually trying to be 'righteous' by not 'gossiping.'
Furthermore, how do you know that we HAVEN'T forgiven ATI? If I had been raped by a man, I could absolutely forgive him, but would that mean I wouldn't warn every woman I see about who he is and what he did to me? It would be a sin if I DIDN'T warn people, I absolutely believe that.
'God is more than capable of taking care of those who seek after His wisdom without negative stories from anyone else.' What do you call a testimony then? I submit to you the Scripture from Romans, 'How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?' While yes, this verse is more specifically dealing with a person getting saved, you understand the meaning.. how can you expect someone to know they are headed into a well hidden trap unless someone warns them about it?
I hope very much that you do not see this as an attack on you. If anything I am very much calling into question something I see as a very dangerous and faulty belief. Please understand that I am not trying to be unkind to you. I just don't see how what you proposed could possibly be a working solution to the problem.
Thanks for both of your responses!
Here is dictionary.com's definition of gossip http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gossip?s=t&ld=1031 One definition that stands out to me is tattling. Of course the Holy Spirit can work through humans to accomplish His will, but so can other spirits and gossiping or tattling is not a fruit of the Spirit. In fact, speaking of fruits, as I am sure you know Galatians says,
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If ATI is displaying the fruits of the flesh, the better response would be to prominently display the fruits of the Spirit, which are not evident to a large degree on this site.
A couple of articles that sound bitter:
I Just Want to be Normal
A Response to Bill Gothard
While I am not questioning the validity of your issues with ATI, I am indeed questioning the method of addressing your issues. I understand being hurt by those you loved and trusted. Recently my husband and I were very hurt by spiritual leaders and close friends but our test comes from how we respond to them. Since Satan already has a foothold in our situation we have to be exponentially careful to show the fruit of the Spirit, it is our only hope at resolution (and hopefully restoration). It honestly has been one of the hardest things we've ever had to do but it is the only way. Man's anger DOES NOT produce the righteousness of God (even if you were not in the wrong to start with). As I tell my husband, I will also plead with you all on this site, do not let _____ send you to hell. By that I mean, don't let your response to the ungodly behavior of [fill in the blank] be displeasing to God.
Michelle - do you have a better suggestion on how former ATI students can warn prospective ATI parents that they do not know about their own experiences and concerns with the program? And if so, what would that look like?
Michelle,
Thanks for responding. I have a few questions for you.
One, Recovering Grace's mission is partly to warn those considering ATI of the danger of it. If you believe there is a better way to do so, would you mind sharing? While everyone at RG believes in showing the fruit of the Spirit, is it not important as well to give testimony and evidence of the fact that ATI teachings have hurt many people? I understand your concern over that, but there are numerous articles on dealing with Scriptural problems in ATI teachings and teaching what the Bible actually says about these issues.
Two, as for your citation of two articles that indicate bitterness, how do they exhibit such? And, how do you define bitterness?
As Chris asked, if you don't believe this is the best way of addressing our issues, would you mind sharing how you believe we should address them?
I love the passage you cite. I think it goes straight to the heart of what Christianity is truly about. I would be curious to hear more about lessons you learned in responding to abusive leaders. Something I've experienced is that abusive leaders use their power to make their detractors look bad and to cover up their own bad behavior.
I think one of our lessons in this comes from resurrection of Christ: resurrection power did not mean stopping the crucifixion, it meant rising against after the "bad guys" had done their worst. So in our experiences, sometimes it seems best we simply endure being mistreated and allow God to bring new life out of the ashes of the experience. It would be wrong to say that's the point of the resurrection but I see a helpful image there.
But something that is pernicious about spiritual abuse is that wrong things are done in God's name. Well-meaning people who tried to seek God but were met with spiritual abuse may have a very hard time rediscovering who God is, apart from the abusive representation. Seeing it spelled out, the wrong from the right, can be an important part of someone's healing, it seems to me. I see this paragraph as a truth in tension with the previous paragraph - that sometimes we quietly endure and trust, and sometimes we need to push back with clarity and enough volume to be heard.
So that's me - but I'm truly curious to hear more about you. Have you found there are times to speak truth to power? How do you do so in the fruit of the Spirit? How does the fruit of the Spirit relate to say, Matthew 18 (clearly calling sin, sin) or to Paul rebuking Peter in Gal 2? And to repeat myself from earlier, any lessons you've learned from personal experience you might want to share?
As to my thoughts on warning potential ATI parents I think Gamliel in Acts 5 had good advice.
"But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,"
Put ATI in God's hands, don't stand in the way of God's judgement (if He is indeed reserving judgement for them). Keep your hands free of blood, so to speak, and let God, who is the only one who actually knows the hearts of men, build up or tear down. Keep praying for ATI to seek God and for those who may be drawn to it to seek God's wisdom.
To answer Don's question about the necessity of giving testimony of how ATI has hurt people. I do not see the need for giving testimony to others about it. Calling out to God is a different matter. Many times the people called out to God and He heard and delivered. He can do the same with ATI.
Matthew, I agree with your analogy of the cross. It shows how God works by redemption, not prevention. As Joseph said concerning the treatment of him from his brothers, what they meant for evil, God meant for good. The same goes for all the negative spiritual experiences we all endure. God can and does redeem these experiences when we give them to Him.
There is a difference in those who are seeking to know God apart from an abusive representation and those who are inquiring into a specific ministry. For the former group of people, seeking truth from the scripture and responding to specific questions is definitely a good thing. But a continued and bitter reflection on the past isn't helpful. For the latter group of people, in which I fall, an exhortation to prayerfully seek God's wisdom should suffice.
I had trouble learning this. In my own trial I wrote several iterations of a letter of response addressing all the wrongs done to us. I sent it to a spiritual mentor of mine for review. While he understood where I was coming from he told me in no uncertain terms that I could NOT send it. That it would go over like a grenade. Coming from him, I knew to listen. He had endured learning that his daughter had been molested for several years by a son of a leader in a different congregation and though his family forgave and tried to make peace, the leaders kicked him out of the congregation. (It is too long and too convoluted to explain how this could happen). But knowing he had a heart for restoration helped me to listen and not to plead my case with the leaders but with God.
It was good advice as God delivered us from that situation and literally moved us to a much better place where we started the healing process. Since then it has still been difficult for us emotionally many times but we pray for them and reached out to them by calling them to share good news. Our phone call opened the door for expressions of regret from them. We don't have our relationships restored to what it used to be but as far as it depended on us, we made peace. Sadly, the one entity who was at the center of the storm we are still at odds with, but not because of us. We learned that unless we injected love into the situation we didn't have a chance at restoration. We left our relationship with this entity with a short note that said, we love you, we always have and we always will. Up until this note we were getting nasty messages from this entity but after the note, the nasty messages stopped (but the relationship is still broken). Our hope is that it can be restored one day.
It took me awhile to come around to agreeing that my letter of defense would do more harm than good and it was even longer before I reached out in love. I now see the wisdom of it and we have started to see the fruit of that decision. I so hope and pray that you will too. Just imagine how hearts can be softened to listen to you if you pray for the Spirit to work on their hearts and you focus in reaching out in love. Even if ATI continues to harden their hearts against you, there will be no blood on your hands.
I appreciate your heart in this, that you want to reach out in love to those who wronged you, and you have a long-term vision for reconciliation. I do believe that an essential part of "love your neighbor" is that vision for reconciliation. So tempting to lose that vision or even to exchange it for the poisonous cotton candy of revenge.
Food for thought: in spiritually abusive systems, there tends to be a powerful unwritten rule: the "can't talk" rule. This unwritten rule says that you must not address problems or talk about them, and if you do, you will be targeted as the problem yourself. This is discussed here (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/07/the-subtle-power-of-spiritual-abuse-chapter-5-identifying-the-abusive-system)
A quote I've seen at a different blog (quivering daughters) is this: "It is a grave disservice to the heart, soul, body and spirit of a woman when she is given the subtle message that the truth of her own pain is not as important as the reputation of the ones who inflict it."
A point that the authors of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" make is that a peace which depends on not talking about problems is a facade, not a real peace. It's interesting that you mention a case of molestation. We Protestants love to pick on the Catholics for covering up their scandals but we've often done just as poorly, covering up our scandals in an effort to "protect the church" and giving an abuser safe haven to do it again, and again. The can't-talk rule stays in full force, protecting the guilty and providing a fresh supply of new victims. I hasten to say I'm not accusing your friend - my heart goes out to their family for their pain. I'm speaking broadly, in general terms about this.
Now, I'm not meaning to level a charge against you of caving in to this rule. I'm just pointing to it as the other side of the coin. I believe there is a time to remain quiet, and there is a time to boldly speak truth to power (and I readily confess I don't always know which time is which). When Paul rebuked Peter, Peter evidently responded with humility. Sadly, many spiritual leaders today respond in pride, name-calling, power-plays, etc., When you do speak out, you can fully expect to be attacked and character-assassinated. That response says more about their character than yours.
I fully accept the notion that it is our duty to reach out in love. I'm not sure that love always means staying quiet. Again, not accusing you of anything. Partly just thinking out loud.
I'll share a quick personal story: I met one-on-one with a prof at seminary for a while. One day I blurted out, "some day I'm going to write a book against Gothardism." He looked me and said, "write a book about grace instead." Honestly, I doubt I will ever be so fortunate as to publish a book but I will never forget his challenge. As important as it is to speak truth, and it is critically important sometimes that we do so, it's even more important to point people to God's grace. And to live it out ourselves.
Michelle I can appreciate the advice about calling out to God to change hearts. But the apostles, especially Paul, were also very insistent about giving specific warnings of false teachers. Paul was not did not to only merely sit and pray that Christians would listen to the Holy Spirit and make the right decision. Paul (and others) were very proactive in teaching the truth and identifying false teachers, warning others about them, and explaining how the teachings were wrong, and they encouraged others to keep the faith pure by not allowing false teachers to distort the Gospel.
Paul believed it was his duty to warn Christians of false teachers. In fact, he seems to have made it one of his career priorities. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." (Acts 20:28-31)
Paul also commanded others to stop false teachers from spreading false doctrine, and he said that warning others of false teachers is a good ministry. (I Timothy 1:3-7, I Timothy 4:1-7)
Paul also identified specific false teachers by name, and he described how their teaching was false in detail. (I Timothy 1:18-20, I Timothy 2:15-19, Titus 1)
I'm not part of Recovering Grace team, but much of what I read here seems consistent with Paul's teachings to warn others of false teachings. I would agree that some of the articles may sound more "whiney" than others, but I don't sense that this is representative of most of the articles on this site, particularly those raising issues and objections about Gothard's theology.
Michelle, I have to echo what Chris said, and I would like to ask, how does your advice to just ignore ATI jibe with the passages in Scripture (such as the ones that Chris cited) to confront false teachers? Matthew 18 even says that if the offender is unrepentant, "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." In other words, that person is not to be considered part of the fellowship of Christian believers.
And too, as I asked previously with the two articles you cited, how do they demonstrate bitterness? I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on that.
While some articles might come off as a bit strong, and maybe appear bitter, I see a whole-hearted attempt to preach the truth in love here on RG. JMHO.
So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them.
TMichelle, I've basically tried to pull back from this one - I don't want you to feel ganged-up upon and I'm hoping you'll stick around for more conversation.
Something about this caught my eye and I thought I would say this as one person to another. I don't mean this in an argumentative way. In my case, I did not simply stand back to see if Gothardism would succeed or fail, I invested and trusted my life to his teachings. He presents a "new approach" to life that is an all-encompassing vision for a lifestyle. I bought in enthusiastically. It did not succeed. It failed. It did not deliver anything close to the benefits promised and it did deliver much heartache that was supposed to be avoided. My family has paid a price for this program from which it will never recover. I say this not in bitterness or anger. I say it in sadness. I tried it, I trusted it, I invested in it. It didn't work. It didn't work for my family or for most families I know who tried it.
From my perspective, this "new approach" was from man, not God, and it has not succeeded. I'm not saying this to be argumentative, rather just as one person to another I'm sharing a piece of my own experience and my own perspective.
I really like what your professor said Matthew. It reminds me of the illustration used to explain how to recognize truth from false religion. When authorities are taught how to recognize counterfeit money, they do not spend their time learning all the different ways people can counterfeit, but instead learn the intricacies of real money. Instead of spending our time condemning all the false teaching (in congregations outside of ours) we should instead spend the time sharing the truth.
As per the quote from the Quivering Daughters website. I see where she is coming from and ideally the perpetrators will own up to their misdeeds and ask for forgiveness, but if they don't we are told to esteem others better than ourselves and we are of course given the example of Jesus, per Philippians 2 "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." Learning to entrust ourselves to God and letting Him take vengeance is so hard, but necessary. God will take down those who exalt themselves.
I learned to take a que from Sarah when she said to Abraham, "may the Lord judge between you and me." She was called faithful because she had no fear. She put her trust in God, not man. She didn't have to argue with Abraham but submitted to him, esteeming him higher than herself and calling him Lord because she trusted God, not Abraham. We all know we are all just a bunch of sinners, but by putting our hope in man to do the right thing we will just continually be disappointed. The truth of one's pain should not even be compared to the reputation of the ones who caused the pain anyway. God will see and God will act. (And for the sake of the people who inflict pain, I hope He acts in this world so that they don't suffer eternally).
I do agree that, "a peace which depends on not talking about problems is a facade, not a real peace." But airing dirty laundry would not be the way to start the conversation. (Sadly, while this article is positive as well as my interactions with you all, I do see dirty laundry being aired on this site). Personally approaching Bill Gothard with the intent of showing love would be a better beginning (Matt. 18). I would hope that all who have been personally negatively affected by the teachings of Bill Gothard have taken the time to speak with him first. I really hope no one has posted an article on this site (or any other for that matter) without having actually spoken with Bill Gothard first (or at least attempted to). If not then they are in the wrong as well.
I read all the references you cited Chris, I even realized you meant your second Timothy reference to be 2 Tim. :) I liked them all and hold to the thought that Paul didn't write treatises against them but approached them first. But I understand and agree with your point that false teaching should not be ignored. I suppose after all here have spoken to Bill Gothard personally but still he holds to his beliefs, they can do as Paul did and hand him over to Satan. But a website is not the method of reconciliation, restoration or changing Bill Gothard's heart. Imagine what a much larger impact there would be if he changed his teaching.
As for the bitter aspect of the two articles, from The Response to Bill Gothaed language such as "However, this excitement quickly turned to disappointment as realization sank in that the letter was simply another attempt to emotionally manipulate his followers, blame their problems on a failure to uphold his legalistic standards, and defend his false definition of God’s grace. Although the letter was written with a sincere tone, we feel the letter was really just an attempt to do damage control among his followers by discrediting the message of those who are speaking out." and from the other article, "Sometimes the resentment I feel can be overwhelming." Also most of the things she "missed out on" were worthless.
It's interesting how you take the quote from Sarah in the OT and prioritize it over Matthew 18 in the New Testament. That story about Sarah is not a guiding principle for all problems and errors in the church. Your comments seem to me to be entirely committed to a course of trusting the Lord and not taking action, but that is not what Jesus himself taught in Matthew 18. Some people would teach that you have a choice between taking action or trusting the Lord but this of course is a false dichotomy. Sometimes you take action and trust the Lord while doing it. Proverbs 24:10-12 underscores that in some cases non-action would actually be sinful. However, even in terms of Sarah, Peter said "You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear" and "it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil." Sometimes we have to do the right thing even if someone attacks us for it, even if that someone is a religious leader who attacks those who dare oppose him.
Paul made it clear that there are those who are to be opposed. Paul called out Demas by name (2 Tim 4:10), Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17), and Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:20). Paul "opposed Peter to his face" as he reported in Galatians. When Jesus opposed the Pharisees, he was opposing the leading religious authorities of the day. He spoke against them boldly.
By the way, that story about counterfeit money is itself counterfeit; it's a made-up story to prove a point. In reality, people who need to understand money study both the counterfeit and the real. The apostle Paul was enough of a student of various trains of thought to be able to engage people from various backgrounds. So that story matches neither modern-day life nor Scripture.
I believe there is a time to be quiet and a time to speak up. When someone has been repeatedly confronted and refuses to accept it, and that person continues to lead people astray, I believe there comes a time to speak up, like Paul did, like Jesus did. It is not a choice between taking action or trusting the Lord, rather we trust the Lord as we take action. We do not stand responsible for the other person's choices, we are responsible only for our own. If they refuse to consider the damage they have caused and to address it, that is their choice. If our speaking up helps free those who have been bound and helps bring healing to those who have been wounded, it is worth the attacks we suffer. I read a comment recently where a pastor said that when he spoke out about spiritual abuse, wounded people started to find healing and religious people started to get angry. That has a ring of truth: wounded and sick people were drawn to Jesus 2,000 years ago and religious people put him to death.
Back to my prof, I firmly believe that the guiding light towards healing is God's grace. The sad thing is that sometimes when we preach true grace, it's the religious people who get angry. My response to that is not to stay quiet in order to preserve a false peace, knowing that my silence passively contributes to people continuing to be wounded. I don't want to speak out in a spirit of revenge but in a spirit of grace, and in the fruit of the Spirit. It's only half the battle to expose the wrong. Healing comes through Jesus and through the work of the Holy Spirit.
I was always skeptical of the couterfeit example when used in the Basic - nice to see that it was bogus.
I used to work for a law enforcement agency that dealt with fictitious financial instruments and I worked with agents who had training in recognizing counterfeit instruments. Matthew is entirely correct that agents don't just study the "real" documents. While agents do study what the "real" money and financial instruments look like, they also spend a good deal of time studying what fake instruments and money look like too, because the counterfeiters often use the same or similar counterfeiting techniques. Recognizing how to identify these counterfeiting techniques or common ways the real money or financial instruments are doctored is as useful as studying the real instruments themselves.
Bill Gothard likes to tell the story about how agents only study "real" money so they can recognize the fake money to make the point that one shouldn't study "false" to make the point that one shouldn't study false teachings so one is not confused by them, but like many of the other analogies Gothard uses, this particular analogy fails because the analogy is based on false assumptions using facts that aren't entirely true.
One more quick thought, something to watch out for: have you ever noticed that the spiritual authorities who enforce the "can't-talk rule" the most do not themselves feel a need to obey it? They will point a long finger at anyone who opposes them, often naming names or making not-so-subtle public references against the person they are upset with. So it's not that they truly believe the rule, rather, it's a tactic, a power-play to preserve their "authority."
First of all, totally ditto to Matthew! Very, very true.
Michelle, thank you for participating in discussion with us. We obviously have our disagreements, but nevertheless, we welcome your input. Just something to point out, 4 years ago, I would have been saying the very same things that you are saying now, so I can understand where you're coming from.
In addressing your claims, I totally agree with what Matthew said. If he doesn't mind, I'd like to add a few thoughts. For instance, in Proverbs 24:11, God makes it clear that if we just sit by when someone is about to be hurt, that that is wrong.
Let me use another analogy. I'm assuming, on the issue of abortion, that you are pro-life. (As am I.) I'm sure you would agree that we should not just stand by and let the murder of unborn innocent humans happen without doing something. You would not just say "Oh let's just leave it in God's hands." Neither would you say "Let God deal with them, and let's just ignore them. We just need to pray for these abortionists and the mothers, that God will change their heart." You obviously would not say any of that, would you?
Yet, when you have a man whose teachings have hurt many people, who has been confronted numerous times over those teachings, and has not listened to the advice of others, why are you now using that logic stated above? I'm not saying that one is equal to the other, but the logic is the same between the two. And false teaching is wrong as well.
Secondly, you cited some examples in articles of what you thought sounded bitter. May I ask, what is bitter about those? I don't see anything really. I see it more as just stating facts. As for the author of "I Just Want to Be Normal," stating that she felt resentment at times, what's wrong with feeling upset that you were wronged? As the whole of the article indicates, she has moved on beyond that. And as for the things she listed that she was kept from and saying it was worthless, I'd disagree with that assertion. However, that's not the real issue. The real issue in her case was being sheltered, so much so that she came off as socially awkward and immature. That's what happens in many ATI families, unfortunuately. I can relate to that, as I was extremely sheltered as a child and as a teenager. I was very socially immature, and I can tell you this with confidence, that a lot of people would have thought I was weird.
I suppose I will not argue any longer on whether this website should respond in the fashion it is, but I will urge anyone who has a problem with Bill Gothard and/or his teachings to approach him first. I think this is the spirit of all scripture, to seek restoration first. And of course it is explicitly stated in several areas such as Matthew 18. So before anyone says anything else negative (even if it is true), please speak with Bill Gothard first in a spirit of love hoping for reconciliation. (But I must say in my defense that the example of Sarah is also given in the New Testament for us to follow so I do not hold Old Testament in higher regard than the New). But again, whether it is abortion (as Don mentioned) or misguided preaching, we are to approach the person we first.
Yes, Matthew, I have seen where spiritual authorities do not follow what they call others to do. I have seen this a lot. It is sad isn't it? Oh, and I'm not surprised the story about the counterfeit money is counterfeit, preachers are always telling "preacher stories" that are suspect ;)
Very quickly regarding the bitter articles, "Sometimes the resentment I feel can be overwhelming", the word resentment can also be synonymous with bitter. Also, the letter sounded bitter right away because it assumed he didn't mean what he said. He actually may not have, but only God knows.
Don, I am intrigued by this comment you made,
"The real issue in her case was being sheltered, so much so that she came off as socially awkward and immature. That's what happens in many ATI families, unfortunuately. I can relate to that, as I was extremely sheltered as a child and as a teenager. I was very socially immature, and I can tell you this with confidence, that a lot of people would have thought I was weird."
I haven't met any ATI families in real life (that I know of) and I only know a few homeschool families but I wondered why you would consider the ATI families immature. What made them so? Coming from a very socially "normal" public school, I see a lot of issues with "regular" kids. I actually happen to really enjoy weird and different people. Several of my best friends have been from different cultures and I am always fascinated by learning how their lives went. There are so many problems that arise from a modern upbringing that I am really curious as to why you think it is a problem to be socially different.
Also, I'd love to know how you (or others) plan to raise or are raising your own children. What values are important to you to pass down? How do you plan to pass them down? Are you planning on homeschooling?
TMichelle, thank you for the interaction. I hope you stick around and keep reading and discussing. The discussion is good for all of us.
Shameless plug: I'm blogging through "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" with a new entry each Thursday. I think the book is great, which does not necessarily mean my posts about it are! First post on that series is here.
It's cool that you have friends from other cultures. I am very intrigued by cross-cultural communication (have enjoyed taking some classes on that subject). I think I can identify in many ways with TCKs (third culture kids).
TMichelle,
I'm not actually part of RG, but my family was apart of ATI. I didn't have the bad experiences that most of everyone apart of RG has had.
I understand what your concerns are about this site and I can't say I totally disagree with you, plus I know others who share your opinion. But I won't start an argument with everyone else on here by explaining what I believe:-)
Most of my comments on here are found rather controversial and this one will probably be no different.
But here it goes...in regards to becoming apart of ATI I do recommend that you pray about it and if you do become apart of ATI just keep in mind that Mr. Gothard is human like the rest of us. Don't except everything he says as truth study it out for yourselves.
My family never followed Mr. Gothard legalistically and didn't totally fit the ATI norm. But for us that meant we had a good experience with ATI instead of the stories on here.
I'm sure you know this already...but the most important thing is that you and your family grow daily in your personal relationship with Christ. No program can be a substitute for the time you spend studying God's word for yourself.
May God Bless you as you seek to serve and honor Him with your life and your family!!!
Michelle,
Thanks for your input. I am struggling to find how that article was bitter. Bitter in the dictionary and in the Greek basically means an intense burning hatred. I don't see that in the article you cited.
As for the whole sheltering/homeschool/public school issue, I would agree, the public school system is not always the best place for every kid either. I am glad I was homeschooled, but I have seen how ATI kids are actually not mature (my own experience included). For instance, I was at ALERT about 2.5 years ago, and the Regional ATI conference happened when I was there. At the time, I was in the process of sorting through stuff from ATI (and still am), and I can remember one family in particular, the girls were dressed in very out of style clothing, and they totally lacked self-confidence. One of them in particular would walk around with her head down, and wouldn't really talk much.
That's just one example. As to answer your questions at the bottom, I am not a parent, but I do plan to teach my kids (if and when I get married :) ) first and foremost, about the Christian faith. I very well may homeschool them, but I'm not sure about that. If I did, I would definitely try to get them out in various social activities as much as I could. To me, the best way to pass down these values is by teaching them, and the other, by personal example. Granted, I'm not a parent, so my perspective very well might change.
Majenta,
I appreciate your weighing in here. While we do disagree somewhat on the purpose behind RG, I think by and large, I would agree with your comment. I would take exception to the statement "and if you do become apart of ATI just keep in mind that Mr. Gothard is human like the rest of us. Don't except everything he says as truth study it out for yourselves."
Let me clarify my issue with that. I firmly believe that one should search the Scripture, and not take the word of a man as Gospel truth-after all, that's one reason RG exists. :) What I do take exception to is believing that one can sort the good from the bad in BG's teachings. Personally, for me, I find that extremely difficult, if not next to impossible, as do many here. That's why I cannot honestly recommend ATI to anyone. Regardless, I do agree that one should definitely search the Scriptures to see if what you are being taught by anyone (pastor, ATI, Christian teachers like MacArthur, Piper, etc) lines up with Scripture.
I do have to say, I admire the fact that you are trying to be objective about these issues. I am glad to see that your family didn't take everything Mr. Gothard said at face value. I would agree, that I think your family did well because of that. Unfortunuately, there were many parents who did, and that ended up hurting their children.
Matthew, thanks for your "shameless plug". :) I'll have to check it out.
Majenta, thank you for your blessing, I can use it! I agree that one can never take what a preacher says as gospel truth without searching the scriptures for themselves. Even I have changed my understanding on issues and passages through the years, I can't expect any different from others.
I will indeed be in prayer about joining ATI. It is interesting that your family was accepted into ATI without fitting the "norm". I actually have doubts I would be accepted anyway due to the fact that our thoughts on some issues do not fit ATI's beliefs. I was checking it out because I was intrigued by the curriculum, but it seems you can only get the curriculum if you are a part of ATI. I do have access to Embassy Institute's electronic library and am enjoying several of the video series.
Don, bitter can mean an intense burning hatred, but in modern usage it can also mean resentment. Check out dictionary.com's definition of resentment for the World English Dictionary. Bitterness is part of the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/resentment But I didn't want to go all "legalistic" on you. :) I just wanted to convey that many of the articles and responses showed their authors to still be caught up emotionally in ATI and that they had not moved on to a point of letting it go and allowing God to bring discipline, or of reaching out in love with the hope of reconciliation.
Thank you for your example of the emotionally immaturity of ATI. I have seen this type of behavior as well. There is always a few students like that no matter where you go. Well, there were more than a few like that at the college I attended. There was a joke that said, "How can you tell the difference between an extrovert engineering student and an introvert engineering student? The extrovert looks at YOUR feet [as opposed to their own]. I went to a secular school of mostly engineering students and they were a different lot for sure. :)
I appreciated reading your thoughts on what you would do with your family. Things can change as you said if/when you become a parent, but I found it interesting to read your current thoughts. ALERT looked like a good program, did you think it was valuable?
Michelle,
I see your point on the dictionary definition, but the author did not seem to convey that she was bitter. She doesn't seem hateful towards ATI. Indeed, if you look at the whole context of her article, she was trying to give advice on how to move on. This may be a point of disagreement that we have, and I'm willing to agree to disagree on that.
I am very interested in your comment "I just wanted to convey that many of the articles and responses showed their authors to still be caught up emotionally in ATI and that they had not moved on to a point of letting it go and allowing God to bring discipline, or of reaching out in love with the hope of reconciliation."
Is being emotionally passionate about your position equivalent to bitterness? I wouldn't think so. Emotion does not equal bitterness. As for the "letting go" part of it, God does use others sometimes to carry out His intended purposes. IOW, RG could very well be God's method of humbling Mr. Gothard for the things he has done that aren't right. Letting go of something doesn't mean forgetting your past. As for the reconciliation, documentation confirms that multiple people have tried to approach Mr. Gothard in regards to different issues with his teachings, and Mr. Gothard has not received it well.
I would totally agree, you will find immature people anywhere. However, I think ATI teachings and the culture of ATI had a major negative influence in that regard.
ALERT, I should probably clarify, I was not in the program, I was on staff there. As for ALERT being a good program, (and some here may not totally agree with me either) I think it had some good points to it. ALERT had their imperfections, and those definitely showed. There actually was some pretty big anti-ATI sentiment at ALERT. One of the instructors even told me once "I would not put my family in ATI whatsoever, but I'd send my sons to ALERT." I'm not as against ALERT as I am ATI, in spite of being somewhat mistreated while there, since I credit my time there to helping me work through ATI stuff and learn more what the real world was about.
Thanks for your questions and discussing these things with us.
Just as a final note, one thing I dislike in particular about ATI, is the fact that they seem very unwilling to agree to disagree. Not all are like that (as Majenta has demonstrated), but unfortunuately, it seems to be a prevalent attitude in ATI. With ATI, it seems you must accept everything they teach, or you are considered "worldly." That is one of my biggest problems with it.
I think emotionally passionate about one's stance can be equivalent to bitterness if that emotion is resentment. I definitely think God can and does use all sorts of things to humble the proud, but negatively posting about someone without having spoken to them first is very questionable. I realize that other's have probably spoken to Bill Gothard, and that it may even be documented, but that does not give one a pass to overlook God's word when it comes to your personal response concerning Bill Gothard. Who knows with what spirit others approached Bill? Even if they approached him with a spirit of humbleness, love and reconciliation, who is to say that one more person won't be the one to change his heart?
I'm very sorry for your mistreatment at ALERT. It is never fun to be mistreated. I've been there and it is a difficult. :(
I am intimately familiar with the mindset that you describe in your last paragraph. That's no fun either! :) These days, I just leave those people alone and focus on all the Lord has given me to do. Or at least I try, I'm easily distracted.
I enjoyed this discussion as well and thank you all for your input. May the Lord bless you and keep you and lift His face to shine on you all.
Hey, great thoughts.
Just a few things to mull over.
For the author to use the word "resentment" in her article may not have been the best wording, but I'm failing to see how, in the whole context of the article, that she is bitter.
As for posting negatively about someone...in Mr. Gothard's case, Matthew 18 has been followed. Grace and tolerance has been given to Mr. Gothard in many cases. Almost every one of those times, Mr. Gothard has failed to listen to counsel. In Matthew 18, it says that if the person does not repent, that they are basically to not be considered a member of the fellowship of believers. In 1 Timothy, it says to receive an accusation against an elder with two or three witnesses. Recovering Grace is more than two or three witnesses, I should think. ;-) 1 Timothy 5:20 also says "Them that sin, rebuke before all."
Although it is possible that some who have approached Bill Gothard have had a wrong spirit, (and indeed, some probably have)I think it would be a mistake to say that everyone who has approached him has had a wrong spirit. I think there have been many who approached him or critiqued his teachings in a humble manner, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but Mr. Gothard basically would refuse to listen.
Thank you for your kind comments about my situation at ALERT.
It's nice to see we can both relate to seeing the attitude of no disagreement allowed. Glad to know I'm not alone. :)It's definitely not a fun experience dealing with it...as I'm sure you can you relate. :)
Something to think about: I think Mr. Gothard has demonstrated that attitude of not being willing to disagree (as some have documented), as have some of the IBLP leadership. For example, Robert Norvell, one of the leadership of IBLP who ran at least one of the training centers, on his Facebook wall, was asked about all those who had been hurt by ATI. Mr. Norvell's one-word response (in all caps, nonetheless) "HOGWASH," seemed to indicate an ungracious, prideful attitude on his part. Unfortunuately, that seems to be prevalent in ATI, which is why I don't think it's something that can just simply be ignored when the leadership embody it.
I appreciate your desire to love the Lord, and seek the truth. Thank you again for engaging us in discussion. It's been most interesting.
Well said, Don.
Something I would ask TMichelle or others who think folks should be contacting Gothard personally in an attempt to follow a Matthew 18 pattern is: who is his church leadership? To which pastor does Bill Gothard submit?
If someone were to meet with Mr. Gothard and he were to remain unrepentant (which is an established pattern for him from at least the 1970s), what church leadership would be brought in to escalate the concern with him?
I'd be interested to know how a Gothard supporter would answer that question. And actually, I'd be interested to how Mr. Gothard himself would answer it. My guess (as rude as it is for me to guess) is he would say he's too busy to actually attend a specific church, and then give the name of some local church that he has rarely attended in the past several years (essentially giving himself a free pass).
Matthew, it is funny, several responses ago I actually answered that question but deleted it before I posted as I didn't want to go off-topic. Being that we are not in the same congregation as Bill Gothard, I do not think it is our place to kick him out of the church. If his congregation does, that is Matthew 18. I was saying this because I know of several churches who "disfellowship" members of other churches because they disagree with something like marriage divorce and remarriage. I do not believe this is their place at all.
But I know one thing, God does hate is dissension so I will not be the conduit for that. So I will not beg my point any longer but pray that you are humbling yourselves to God in your interactions.
Michelle,
I think you may have misunderstood what Matthew was trying to ask. He was asking, to whom does Bill Gothard submit to, when it comes to church leadership? He's not advocating kicking Mr. G out of the church.
Your second point there, I find very interesting. How is trying to correct false teachings and hold someone accountable for that stirring up dissension?
I'm sorry if I misunderstood Matthew's question. I believe even if one doesn't have an exact situation like Matthew 18 describes, the principle God sets up is to speak to the person we have an issue with first before we let anyone else know about that problem. No one would want someone to set up a website and a lot of people write negative things about them without speaking to them first. I personally dislike when people do that to me. Don't get me wrong, I do not at all enjoy confronting someone when I think they are wrong, but if I love them enough, I'll do it. I *try* to do it with the right spirit.
As far as me stirring up dissension, it seems this is a pretty tight brotherhood here I don't want to create waves. Even if I'm right, there comes a point where I need to leave it up to the Holy Spirit and not be contentious.
Michelle,
I would agree that the principles that God sets in Scripture are to be followed. Indeed, that is very true.
You urge us to confront Bill Gothard first before publicly complaining about him. You say that we wouldn't want someone to set up a website and have lots of people writing negative things about us without coming to us first.
While I do wholeheartedly agree that one should be confronted in private before being criticized publicly, Mr. Gothard has already been confronted, multiple times. There is documentation that exists for this. The book A Matter of Basic Principles outlines many of the instances in which Bill Gothard has been confronted or people have tried to confront him. I know there is an article on RG that provides a link to a Christianity Today article as well.
Therefore, I don't think Recovering Grace is guilty of criticizing someone who has never been approached.
Too, you say that God hates dissension. Please explain where in Scripture it says that confronting false teachers (as we believe Bill Gothard to be) is seen as dissension. Jesus confronted many in a rather harsh manner.
I do realize that people have confronted Bill Gothard, but not everyone who has posted here has come to him in love before talking about him. If you are personally hurt by someone scripture tells us to speak to them. Bill Gothard has not refused to listen to you so I do not think it is time to count him as a gentile or a tax collector. Yes, several people may have come to him, but Matthew 18 allows for confrontation by the church first, of which you are a part, before you write them off.
The dissension comment was aimed at myself.
Scripture does not say that everyone has to go to somebody. If Bill Gothard has already been confronted, that does not mean that everyone who has been offended must approach him.
I would ask, where in Scripture does it say that every single person must go to the person who has offended them? If a person has been confronted, and has not repented, Scripture does not say "you must keep going to them privately."
May I ask you a few questions? One, why do we never bother to privately confront Mormons on their false doctrine? Obviously, because it is public, so we publicly refute their false teachings. So, therefore, since ATI is also a public ministry, why are you making an exception for them?
And I should say, I didn't consider you to be creating dissension here. Disagreement does not equal dissension.
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
I would say that this includes everybody who has an issue. If you were sinned against by Bill Gothard, you need to go tell him his fault, between you and him alone.
If a Mormon has sinned against you, you should confront them personally.
I think you missed the part where BG HAS been confronted, by multiple people, multiple times, and he refuses to listen. I honestly don't think he'll live long enough for every single person he has offended or damaged to take it up with him, and the fact that he's so unwilling to hear what he has already been approached with, is rather telling. I believe the situation has passed the point of 'two or three witnesses, tell it to the church'. Apparently it's been going on for longer than I've been alive. Scripture doesn't give us a precise time frame, but I think it'd be safe to say that Paul didn't have decades in mind when dealing with this type of situation, esp. when the person in question WON'T listen to you.
Oh and thank you. But while I may disagree, there is a point where I have to get out of the way, stop pressing my point and let the Holy Spirit do His work on all of us. I think that time should be now, but I'd be happy to give you the "last word" so to speak.
Ok, I think there comes a point where those who are personally offended should stop "going to the person." In other words, with Mr. Gothard, we are past the point of Matthew 18, and in the stage where Mr. Gothard should be considered "a Gentile and a tax collector." He has been approached many times, and has refused to repent.
I really appreciate the balance you have concerning this topic. I was a casual dater in my teens, and allowed my heart to be broken a few times. I do not blame the other young men, but rather my own immaturity - for thinking that a 16 yr. old boy would care for my heart! I think the bigger picture is that if someone seeks to be married at some point, they should have the right attitude concerning such a great commitment. That attitude should translate over into their dating life. Sometimes you have to weed a few people out to get to the right person, and unfortunately that will require dating several people. As long as you end up with someone who values the institution of marriage as much as you, the road you had to take to get there will be worth it.
Pingback : Top 12 of 2012 | Recovering Grace
Pingback : Potential pitfalls of teachings of emotional purity, chastity, courtship | My Interesting Christian Tidbits Blog
I was a homeschooler raised by the courtship teachings. My senior year in high school I fell in love with the exchange student that lived in our family. We had an undefined relationship for 5 months while living in the same home. We would touch, kiss, and heavy petting. My parents realized we were too close on New Years and I moved across country leaving my family behind. We continued talking on the phone for hours everyday and decided to define our relationship soon after we were separated. After that we saw each other for a period of about a week twice in the year that followed. Both times we seemed unable to have a relationship that was anything but seriously physical since we had not seen each other in so long. After 6 months she returned to her home in another country. We were both so emotionally attached that even though we still talked it had a terrible strain on both of us. She would be reading her bible unable to grow in the word just thinking about me. I would be unable to spend time with God because of my crazy work life that ensued so that I could have the money to go see her. Then she read Heather Paulsen's book "Emotional Purity" after my sister recommended it to her in order to help us keep a pure relationship. She stopped saying "I love you" almost right away. She all of a sudden seemed to have pushed me away which was unusual since we had only ever gotten closer. When I asked her why she was being different she responded by saying read the book "Emotional Purity". I didn't want to at all when she said that because the book seemed to have put distance between us, and I was already having trouble dealing with a 14 hour time-zone difference. I went to borders and bought the book and read it the first day to see why she was distancing herself from me. I understand now that the book talks about having emotional purity and the reasons why. What is really hard for me though, is how do I have emotional purity when I am already so emotionally, physically, and spiritually attached to the woman I love? How can I not be hurt by the changed vocabulary she uses when she talks to me to be emotionally pure? This is someone who has told me everyday that she loves me for almost a year and now says I care about you? I care about my friends that are female, but I love her! There is a difference, but she says that she wants to be emotionally pure and to do that and focus more on Christ she has to put distance between her and I. The fact of the matter is that we had a relationship of serious emotional attachment. We have had a relationship of spiritual companionship. We have had a relationship of total physical attachment save for actual intercourse. How can we go from that to something else? In the book it said we should be emotionally pure to guard our hearts. How can I do that if by becoming emotionally pure it manages to hurt it? I loved her to death, I would give my life for her! This wasn't a casual relationship. I would not have kept a relationship that went from sleeping in the same house to being 2,000 and then 14,000 miles away if I didn't truly believe that she might be the one Christ has picked out for me. Why then does it hurt to try and be emotionally pure?
I'm chiming in late here, but just wanted to say Thank You, Darcy! Loved your two articles. Sums up so many thoughts that echo in my heart as well.... A very humbling journey from self-righteousness to grace in this area. So grateful to Jesus for His faithfulness and patience!! He has guided us every step.... and of course it continues. Thanks for sharing with such love, openness and humility.