Editor’s Note: While most of our articles this month have focused on sexual abuse, this article focuses specifically on sexual harassment experienced while in the employment of Bill Gothard. The dictionary defines sexual harassment as, “The persistent unwelcome directing of sexual remarks and looks, and unnecessary physical contact at a person, usually a woman, especially in the workplace.” This is Part One of a two-part article documenting sexual harassment within the Institute. Follow-up articles with similar testimonies include: Another Witness; Third Witness; and A Call to Repentance.
I was an ATI (Advanced Training Institute) student in Advanced EXCEL at the Dallas Training Center and was headed to college in the fall. Gothard called me down to his office to ask about my plans for the future and asked me to defer college enrollment to come write a series of courses in my intended area of college study for the new Telos program at the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). I believed myself unqualified to take on a project of that scholarship and magnitude, but Gothard was insistent that I was chosen by God to prepare this material, and to do so specifically at IBLP Headquarters in Oak Brook, IL. Meanwhile, Gothard wanted me to attend a Character First conference with him in Oklahoma that weekend. Later I would understand that these invitations were based on my physical appearance, not my research and writing skills.
That weekend at the Oklahoma City Training Center, I got an introduction to Gothard’s conduct with young female apprenticeship students who caught his eye. Gothard and the center director showed me to my room that first night, and after some small talk the center director waited awkwardly for Gothard to leave the room with him. Instead of departing, Gothard walked me to the far side of the bedroom. The director shuffled his feet by the door and appeared to be making every decorous effort to indicate it was time to leave. The center director eventually departed, visibly uncomfortable with the situation, and left me alone with Gothard. I tried to simply smile and nod as Gothard took my hand in front of the window and talked about the wonderful opportunities ahead for me. I was alarmed, but had no idea how to object without causing a scene. He pressured me for a firm verbal commitment to come to Headquarters, and I replied that it was not a decision I could make lightly or alone. After several minutes he gave my hand a final squeeze and departed with a grin and a wink. I was 17 years old.
I should have known then that I needed to leave the situation, but by the end of the weekend I had convinced myself that this was a man of God, that I was overreacting, that holding my hand was a fatherly gesture, and that Gothard hadn’t winked at a teenager in her bedroom but rather had something in his eye. I don’t remember whether I even told my parents about this part of the weekend, I self-censored so effectively.
After I went home Gothard called my family’s house regularly until it was determined that I would go to Headquarters, and meanwhile I was invited to travel with him and other members of staff from Oak Brook to a conference in San Jose, CA. Without having yet been assigned a specific job for San Jose, I flew into Chicago, and the group picked me up at O’Hare on their way out of town. Gothard, four male assistants, one other female assistant and I drove to the West Coast ATI conference over several days, and I entered the queasy world of Gothard’s young female traveling companions.
Gothard touched the other girl and me regularly and with increasing frequency. At first he merely offered a hand to help us in or out of the van, and laid his other hand on our backs as we entered or exited. Then he would hold open a door and touch each of our backs as we walked through; this seemed fine the first time, but I wasn’t sure why it was necessary to touch both of our backs with full open hand every single time we walked through a door of any kind. If there was bench seating, his thigh was closely pressed against mine or the other girl’s. He would take and hold my or her hand as we walked to and from buildings. Without asking or announcing, he stroked my hair. If he was sitting opposite me in the van I would often look up to find him gazing at me, and then he would nudge my foot with his. I would smile nervously, pull my foot back, and look back down at my papers. If he was seated next to me in the van he would rest his hand on my forearm or reach over to hold my hand. I learned to hold my papers in whichever hand was closest to him.
He took his shoes off and suggested that the group in the back of the van do the same. I thought he was just being casual until he started playing “footsy” with me in front of the others. Thereafter I kept my shoes on with toes curled to secure them and unsuccessfully tried to angle my legs away from him, but the man has a talent for cornering a girl’s foot in a small space. I could not figure out how to avoid it without making a scene. I struggled to reconcile the cognitive dissonance between assisting the head of a ministry and trying to gracefully fend off a persistent volley of (usually successful) attempts at physical contact.
On the third day of the trip I called my parents from a pay phone at a Cracker Barrel. I left a message about how Gothard kept touching me and trying to engage me in long, intimate gazes, and how I didn’t know what to do about it. By the time I called my parents from San Jose on the fifth day they were frantic, but Gothard had repeatedly admonished me that I should give them a good report “even if I was tired.” Since each of the individual incidents that so troubled me seemed minor, I told my parents I’d just been tired when I left the message and must have misunderstood the situations. I assumed I was just a sheltered girl entering a more sophisticated world.
In San Jose, at first I had no task aside from waiting for Gothard to summon me and the others in our party to his room at midday, although I was eventually able to get an assignment working at the book tables in the evenings. I never had a problem with Gothard touching me on the conference floor, when we encountered ATI families at the hotel, or when someone produced a camera. He confined his touch and gaze to times when we were with the core traveling group in the van or in his suite.
On the trip back to Oak Brook we stopped at a restaurant with a gift shop, and Gothard put his arm around my waist, waved his arm, and said he’d buy me anything in there I wanted. I thanked him, declined, and excused myself. I feared that a gift would indebt me in a way that I could not articulate, but that I knew I did not want. I rejoined the group when I was able to make myself laugh and smile again, as Gothard had rebuked me earlier for not appearing cheerful enough.
After I returned home that summer Gothard continued to call, and I convinced myself that I’d just been overly tired and emotional on the trip. He again convinced my family that God was calling me to complete this project for Telos, and that the project was very important to him personally because of some of his father’s dying instructions.
Once I was at Headquarters it became immediately clear that no one in the Telos program was interested in or had even been informed of this project. I threw myself into reviewing and organizing the raw research I’d assembled and began to write what I was supposedly there to write. Gothard would summon me at various times of day and late into the night to help him with correspondence, but my duties in his office usually included being petted on the arm or hair. I tried to keep a desk between him and myself, but that strategy was only intermittently effective. I submitted the first part of the course I was creating for review by the relevant supervisor, and to the best of my knowledge it was never even read. The project had been killed behind the scenes before I’d submitted any material at all, and Gothard had approved this cancellation months before without telling me. Too slowly I realized that I had not been invited to Headquarters as a course writer, but as a decorative object. I had the kind of tailored suits and long curly hair that Bill Gothard liked. He continued to take me to meetings and invite me to his office at night, and I tried to find any viable excuse to avoid being alone with him. Simply refusing the head of the ministry was not an option in this very hierarchical environment, and at the time I was not aware of any other young members of staff who had successfully done so.
What I did not know was that in the Summer and Fall of 1997, after the San Jose conference and around the time I arrived at Headquarters, the father of one of the young men on the San Jose trip had approached the IBLP Board with a spectrum of concerns about Gothard’s conduct, particularly his penchant for taking young girls on road trips and conducting himself in a questionable manner with them while on those trips. I do not know what Gothard’s verbal or written response was to the Board when presented with these concerns, but I know firsthand that his conduct with me and other young women did not alter in the months after the Board asked him to change his behavior. The other girls and I were all between 15 and 24 years of age.
I stayed and worked at Headquarters because it was too late for me to start college that year, and because I wanted to make a success of my first job. I stopped explaining away Gothard’s creepy and invasive behavior with young women, although I believed myself powerless to do anything about it. I repeatedly saw him initiate long hand-holding sessions with various young women on staff wherein he would rub and massage their hands as he gazed into their eyes. I heard him praise two of my housemates effusively for their “discipline of figure” after one of them lost weight during a serious illness and the other started exhibiting all symptoms of full-on anorexia nervosa, while other girls were “reassigned” from Headquarters for becoming too heavy. I tentatively discussed Gothard’s hyper-tactile behavior with girls who were or had been in my place. I saw girls rotate on and off of Gothard’s roster of favored companions and stopped trying to convince myself that every brush of his hand against a thigh must be a unique accident. There were always between two and six girls on this rotation, and I couldn’t figure out how to get off of it.
My solution to this was to become somewhat surly. This was, of course, not a great plan, but it did lessen the number of invitations to Gothard’s office, and I went on fewer trips. Gothard assigned me to rewrite a footnote about divorce for an upcoming edition of the Zodhiates study Bible, and I declined on the grounds that I did not have adequate linguistic expertise. Gothard assigned me to answer a couple of letters with advice that I could not endorse, and I let the letters die in a drawer instead. I tried to find a space between being a favorite and being seen as obstinate, which is a much smaller space than one might expect. Nevertheless, I was still on the escort rotation, seemingly because I still fit Gothard’s favored physical profile.
The way out was photo day. I was ill the day staff pictures were taken, and my photo was of a pale, sweaty girl with sunken eyes and a chapped smile squinting through glasses. These were to be the photos Gothard viewed and prayed over each morning, and I was never called to his office again.
A well-timed virus had accomplished what all my passive aggression could not, and I was finally off Gothard’s list of favorite objects.
Click here for Part 2 of this article: “Sexual Harassment: Aren’t you making too big an issue of this?”
See how the experiences Ruth, Annette, Charlotte, Rachel, Meg, Lizzie, and Grace had with Bill Gothard fit together chronologically here, and behaviorally here.
Lizzie’s parents first attended the Basic Youth Conflicts Seminars in the 1970s, and her family was enrolled in the ATI program for most of the 1990s. Between 1994 and 1998 she spent several months at the Indianapolis and Dallas Training Centers, worked at IBLP seminars in five states, and served at the Moscow Training Center. She worked at IBLP Headquarters in Oak Brook, IL, 1997-98. Lizzie graduated from Moody Bible Institute and did graduate work at Wheaton College.
If this sexual abuse series brings up any emotions that you would like to process with a professional counselor, please e-mail us at:
[email protected]g. We would be happy to recommend some professional counselors who are associated with the Recovering Grace ministry and who are familiar with the fundamentalist background of ATI and IBLP.
January 5, 2020
Remember this story? https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/07/dividing-sister-and-brother/
Stunning that a man like Gothard would be so strict on this behavior even amongst family members, and so loose in his personal practice. Even by Gothard's own standards, his actions would be grounds for dismissal.
Thanks for a great article, Lizzie... a great alarm to IBLP parents that 'favored' is not always 'favorable.'
The whole subject matter of ministers being overly strict with "conduct" yet with hypocrisy behind closed doors intrigues me.
I am under the impression a lot of these type of abuses comes down to a misunderstanding of scripture and it being impressed on others.
I know this is a sensitive topic, however, what I mean is the repressive nature of many ministries towards conduct between opposite sexes essentially backfires.
One becomes a hypocrite, due to rediculous rules. And in the process causes themselves to be comfortable in their hypocrisy.
This is why I believe we find such odd deviancies as priests with children, or even this latest story of Tom White, head of Voice of the Martyr, who committed suicide after a story of sexual advances towards a child.
One gets the impression that all sexual conduct is bad conduct, which leads to these hypocritical leaders.
Rather than taking a balanced approach to the topic.
I believe one of the main misunderstood verses on this topic is Matthew 5:27-28, which I wrote regarding here:
http://www.godrules.net/articles/mat5.htm
The repressive, pigeon holing one's sexuality then leads people to hypocritical and deviant lifestyles hidden behind a facade of "righteousness".
Sincerely
Tony
Totally disagree, its just a matter of giving into the lusts of the flesh. If your right arm causes you to sin, cut it off. i.e. figure out a way to get the sin into the light - painful, yes; worth it, absolutely. Pride, as is often the case, is the culprit ....
I know this is late, but I have to vehemently disagree with you here. What you have written here is what sexual predators want you to believe. That it is all an accident brought about by lust, and that is not the case. These types of sexual predators carefully set up strict rules of behavior, so that others will not believe allegations against the predator when he violates those rules. Religious leaders are able to get away with their predatory behavior because nobody believes that a man with such a strict moral code would ever do such things. If the predator is ever caught he feigns sorrow, and his followers believe he just 'fell into sin,' and it must be the victim's fault for tempting him. Predators like this are able to get away with their behavior for decades. Do not be fooled. These types of people carefully disguise themselves with a morally superior reputation, and carefully groom their victims. They know what they are doing from the very beginning. That is why they are called predators. It is very hard for people to admit when they have been taken in by a predator. Especially when those predators have been so admired by so many, often for years. It is hard fo people to admit that they were so wrong.
What you have written about predators cloaking themselves in the disguise of their moral requirements and superiority totally makes sense and has been repeated over and over on the large scale of ministries and organizations (Doug Philips, for instance) and the small scale of the family with the "stepfather who is such a godly man that his stepdaughter must be lying about his abuse." It is terrifying. Thank you for putting it so concisely and well. I will be ever more vigilant for it.
You are incredibly naive if you think a young man can't get sexually stimulated by his sister. It's in his best interests to exercise discretion and be sensitive to this very real part of the male experience.
Barf - dude, it's your sister ...
Thanks for having the courage to speak out and bring to light this very alarming behavior. I am amazed at the hypocrisy. So many reputations were destroyed for far less.
I think it would be so infuriating to discover I had been assigned to a dead project! A major let-down and an insult to the dream that perhaps I was measuring up.
I'm sorry you were treated like this Lizzie - not cool.
For what it's worth, there are a couple details that resonated:
1) The phone calls home. Back in the early 80s, in the LA Times article that came out, Gothard's personal assistant of 9 years reported that he had been controlling about her nails, makeup, hair, friendships - and her letters to her parents. This certainly gives the appearance that Gothard insinuates himself between young ladies and their parents.
In my own experience in Moscow, we were given some pointed input about what we were supposed to tell our parents. This is not the same thing as described in the story here but it was surprising to me at the time, given the extremely strict ethos of the Institute of "higher standards" and all that, that we were being told how to spin things for our parents.
2) The thigh-to-thigh thing. Again, my own experience in Moscow, I saw Gothard doing that. I was naive and I just got irritated internally with the girls - I felt they were dominating his time and not sharing him, LOL. (Did I just admit that out loud?) I remember him sitting on a bench squished tightly in between two girls. To an outsider, this sounds silly. But within the confines of the Institute, any other man who did that would have been in serious trouble, yet Gothard did it routinely.
3) The college thing. In the early days of ATIA, students were cut off from college. This made the Institute a student's only lifeline to any further education and career opportunities post high school. If you lost that lifeline, you would be stuck. No high school diploma, no college. It would be easy for a casual reader to miss how significant this was for students in Lizzie's shoes, being cut off from college and feeling locked into success or failure at headquarters.
From personal experience, even though I had received a verbal promise from HQ that I would earn a high school diploma, there was no diploma.
None of those details get to the heart of the matter, which is that there was a line crossed where people were being used for Gothard's own selfish purposes under the false premise of him doing good for them. And in the case of these ladies, when they sensed something was wrong and tried to appeal to their parents (whom Gothard constantly taught was their "God-given umbrella of protection") Gothard manipulated them out of it.
My stomach dropped when I read about how you got to HQ and had no purpose there. How you worked anyway -- do your best! Letter to Garcia and stuff! -- with absolutely no result. I always found the reality of ATI opportunities to be less than they were advertised, but I never wanted to complain about it to my parents for fear of sounding "rebellious."
Also, the whole thing is icky. Sorry you were trapped like that. Thanks for writing this.
When I went on staff at headquarters in April 1992, it was drilled into me that "Scripture says we are to avoid even the appearance of evil." Working on the maintenance crew, we men were always expected to not be in any position where we might be alone with a young woman. If we had something to fix in staff housing, and a young woman was home, we'd reschedule. The only exception would be if there were multiple young women at home at that time.
I remember several times late at night either driving past Bill Gothard's office or walking into the building where it was located and seeing through his window that he was alone with a certain young woman. And I dismissed it too. It must be me. I must be reading into it more than I should, etc.
The other thing is that Bill Gothard's young women assistants were always very attractive, thin, perfect teeth and (usually) blonde.
For someone that spoke so highly about Godly character being more important that physical appearance, he never seemed to walk the talk. And there were plenty of young women at headquarters who were rather plain looking but always displayed Godly character as well, so it's not like he could not have had homely assistants.
Call me jaded, but in retrospect it's hard to shake the perception that he was abusing his position . . .
Also, how did these other young ladies feel when they were seeking the face of God but were never recognized? I know, we are to not expect recognition. But then when it seemed only based on outward appearance. What # is that in the list of unchangeables? What disappointment and confusion that brings to these others who are really seeking Godly character! What hypocrisy!
That's because Gothard didn't want you moving in on his action! The chickens in the coup are for the farmer not the ranch hands.
David P?
Lizzie, I think your article is one of the most well-written articles RG has ever posted. And I can see Mr. G behaving exactly in that manner. I was (thankfully) never at HQ, but whenever I would "counsel" with him, we were almost always alone, he would touch my knee, hold and massage my hands, etc. Way to take advantage of a fatherless girl who had no idea what was appropriate besides her intuition.
I am so sorry, to think of how many young ladies went through this type of thing and the parents either did not know of it or when told they would make excuses. All I can say is keep exposing him. Bring charges against him. He is no better then any other person that is in a place of authority. We are reading about coaches, teachers and such doing these type of things and they are brought before the law. He is no better. I hope by you speaking out that it may protect some of the other girls. God bless.
Wow!!! Just for sitting next to a girl, any other guy could have been reprimanded or sent home if someone thought there was a wrong idea. Even at Knoxville were we had tons more freedom, I was scared to be caught talking to a guy.
Gothard would have been kicked out of his own ministry if he was a different person. So sorry that he used this power to act this way!
I had very limited contact with Mr. Gothard, but the few times I did have interaction with him I came away feeling slightly disturbed and ALWAYS thinking what it would be like to be married to him. That was not a typical reaction to older men, on my part. And when I would stop and think about it I would convince myself that it was something wrong with me, or that I was just "drawn to his godliness"...
Ironically, my reputation was later ruined by leaders at the ITC because I disagreed with them about the LIT I was working with. I began to be treated differently, and basically shunned by other staffers there, and then found out that LEADERSHIP was spreading stories about me being in a secret relationship with one of the young men there. Methinks there is a double standard somewhere....
Ooh, this sort of behavior would so have gotten any other staff guy kicked out of HQ or any TC, for that matter.
I'm sorry. Lizzie. I have to come back and read the rest later. Right now I just want to spit on Mr.G.
I knew you before this time period, and Lord help me. I do think I would have yelled "FOUL!!" if I'd seen this behavior. You deserved better treatment - as did any other girl near Mr.G...
"Inner Circle" or not, if Mr.G was doing what would have gotten anyone else instantaneously judged, condemned and blacklisted from any further ATI 'ministry opportunities'...why couldn't someone speak up? Where were the guys looking?
Thank you for everything it took to make this public.
Someone should focus on getting stories from those that drove "The Van" for Bill.
My brother did for a time, and the stories match right up with your article....
Anon, thanks for the suggestion. I'll follow up on it. If you have any stories you'd like to share, feel free to contact Recovering Grace.
I'll add to that. Any chance that someone on the "inside" could surreptitiously photograph a number of these incidents? Get the photo evidence, get lots of testimonies, find enough plaintiffs and an attorney who will represent them pro bono, and put this horrible man out of business for good.
It's just so gross. You conducted yourself so well during all of this. You knew it wasn't right and you were extremely clever on how to handle it. I'm hoping all of the girls were as consciousnesses as you. Look how far he went with you, how far would he have gone? I'm so glad you are out of there!!
Lizzie, I just shake my head in wonder at your "story". Not that I don't believe it, I do, but that it happened to countless young ladies, and I'm sure it is still happening. I remember wanting to make it to the "top" (ie HQ). I noticed it was the well figured, soft curled blonds that usually did, which I was not. Now I am grateful I was "overlooked". Thanks you for being willing to bring this gross (literally) misconduct and hypocrisy to light.
one word. pervert. this is exactly how they behave, there were a few in the IFB church I grew up in. yuck.
Lizzie, thanks for having the courage to recall it and publish it. I was in and out of various IBLP campuses during this same time period, and noticed the unnatural familiarity between Mr. Gothard and his traveling companions. I don't recall witnessing shocking physical attention, but I do vividly remember the feelings of inferiority that overwhelmed me as I saw how attentive he was to his personal staff, all of whom were slighter, blonder, and more smartly dressed than I. It seemed puzzling at the time,since I well knew many of us on the fringes were at LEAST as eager, willing, dedicated, mature, and talented as the loveliest of them. It has become more absurd and suspicious to me as I've grown in understanding. It is a revolting abuse of authority.
This account is 100% consistent with the things I witnessed while at HQ in the late 90s. My friends and I quickly learned that if we dressed according to Bill's particular taste, our lives were much easier. I'm not blond and beautiful, so I never earned a spot in the Gothardmobile, but he used to regularly say to me "my, you are looking slim and trim," which I took as a creepy comment on my figure. He preferred all the women around him to have a specific look, which I'd describe as "1950's stewardess."
I met many girls who had been whisked off to HQ after Bill met them at a seminar. They had usually been promised all sorts of opportunities, none of which were ever delivered, and they were usually baffled to be stuck in a completely useless "job." The department heads always dreaded being assigned one of Bill's girls. I remember one girl sat in my office for weeks playing Typing Tutor on the computer. She had been assigned a "job" but didn't have any skills, so she just sat there learning how to type. I'm sure that wasn't what she was expecting. From what I saw and heard, Bill often was very aggressive in getting these girls to HQ, and was very manipulative with their parents in order to prevent them from going home. (He was often "counseling" them about some problem, and was able to use that to get between the girl and her parents.)
His followers give Bill so much credit for remaining single, but it's not widely known that he did in fact try to marry in the 90's. The problem was that he wanted to marry a very young apprenticeship student (at least one that I know of, and possibly others). Fortunately, IBLP's board of directors prevented this from happening.
Honestly, this is just a tiny bit of the harassment and manipulation I witnessed at IBLP HQ. It's certainly not a healthy place to send your teenaged daughter!
Interesting, Amy. I do remember an acquaintance I had in the mid-90s, who told me that people at HQ were pressuring her to marry Gothard (I think she was in her early 20s), and she was sent to another training center until the rumors died down. Then she would say that Gothard would contact her at the other training center and tell her how she should fix her hair and such. She was rather stressed out about it, as I recall. I have no idea if it was the same student you refer to. At the time, I thought she was just misreading things, perhaps even a little off her nut. In comparing stories afterward, I seriously wonder...
Ditto, Amy. I managed to mostly avoid his office by the help of some fabulous girlfriends like you! I got the "slim and trim" comments, the touching, long, full body hugs, look-overs, and I wasn't even blonde. I guess just "50's stewardess" enough. It's true, the look he singled out. It was a blow to our dignity before the Lord, degrading to be exploited for our looks. I even cut my hair short while at HQ to see what would happen. When curled, it looked kinda like Grace Kelly and he loved it, commented, and I began growing out again immediately. I stopped curling it. I stopped wearing my favorite lipstick, painting my nails, anything he asked me to KEEP doing in order to escape notice and fly under the "radar". The worst was feeling like I was frequently pimped out to the delegations when they requested "private tours". My parents didn't believe me either, Liz,...so I had to gut it out, and wait for the "favor" to pass over like the angel of death.
I really regret that I didn't reach out to other girls there at the time. Somehow, I kind of figured that they were where they wanted to be and would figure a way out if they didn't like it. I will always wonder about it. We were so young...
Yes, Bill DID try to marry a student in the mid-90's. My understanding from someone part of that conversation was that the Board threatened to fire him if he went through with it. Her parents were in agreement with the arrangement. She was over 18 and it was legal, but still...I hear she is married to a good guy, and happy, and has sweet babies now. Bless her heart.
Liz, I am so sorry for what you went through. May you be filled and comforted by your Savior. May you remember the truth of who you are in Him. A magnificent woman. Be strong and courageous!
Love,
Bec
I was in a fundamentalist sect for nearly 10 years that was similar to the Gothard Cult. The founding pastor's first wife died and his second wife was a bombshell young enough to be his daughter. This after he allegedly (from credible witnesses who had solid first-hand evidence of the hanky panky) was serially unfaithful with the bombshell (and others), during the years his first wife was morally ill but before she passed.
The sect had to reinvent itself more than once from the 1970's to the 2000's due to scandal and infighting. One of the most major and recent scandals exposed his later attempts at philandering with, you guessed it ... much younger "secretaries" who were vulnerable and had deep "daddy wounds". His M.O. was very similar to how Gothard was describe in the present article.
However, this founding "pastor" featured himself as being much more "grace-oriented" that Gothard, Hyles, BJU, "those legalistic IFB'ers" etc. Even so, it was basically the same moronic, pseudo-intellectual, authoritarian tripe. A list of "7-Prinicples" or "12-ideals" or a 10 paragraph "definition" for everything you could imagine. The sect even had it's own glossary where Greek words/verb tenses were twisted until they screamed and even English words were redefined. Sound familiar?
During my 18 months on staff at HQ in the late 90s Bill had several attractive young "pets" constantly at his side. Having worked at HQ the same time as Lizzie I absolutely believe every word of her story, and I am now deeply ashamed that I joined every other guy in turning a blind eye to Bill's blatant infatuation of girls 40+ years his junior.
And there is no faster way to get ejected from HQ than to compete for the affection of one of Bill's special young ladies. That's when Bill's most hateful and vengeful character truly manifests itself, as he proceeds to malign the character of the guy in question by vaguely alluding to moral failure of some sort to the HQ staff.
I speak from experience and based on what I observed it in at least two other guys that I remember some 15 years ago.
OH boy. this is just the icing on the cake. not only has the man endorsed sexual abuse, but he has perpetrated it on others. can we just call him down from the throne now?
lol sorry, I have to laugh at your comment...particularly since I was thinking along the same line!
When I was invited to HQ in the fall of 1998 based on the recommendation of a friend, Mr. G gave my dad the impression that I would be part of a writing team to design a course for Telos. I delayed college in order to be part of this "exciting" opportunity.
However, the assignment turned out to be a dead project. My friend and I (we found out after arrival that just the two of us were assigned to the "project") started some rough drafts of the course with the best of our highschool-educated ability, but Mr. G showed little interest when the two of us conferred with him in his office. I recall being annoyed at the way he looked at me and shook my hand (with two hands on mine). I also recall how he glanced out his office window across the street at the house where a dozen or more young ladies shared living space. At the time, I dismissed the feeling that something was amiss.
Realizing that the intended project wasn't going anywhere, my friend and I were reassigned to various "jobs" including assisting with the care of his aged mother, cleaning various building interiors, and working in the kitchen. After two weeks of this, my dad inquired about the project and the next thing I knew, my friend and I were "reassigned" to OKC for the next 2 1/2 months. Our intended assignment there also turned out to be a dead project (hey, RG could do a series of stories on worthless busywork that ATI students got assigned to!), but at least I did enjoy being there for the most part. Then I went home and started college. So glad I did.
I don't want to share, but Bill creeps me out!!!!!!! And I want Bill to know that when you held my hand and asked me if we were friends I said yes, because I was scared... But I also want him to know that he is not my friend now!
Thank you for sharing this, Lizzie. I know how hard it can be to share these experiences, especially when you have tried to minimize or even justify them for so long. I hope that your story will give others strength to speak out and stand up for themselves or others in the kind of situation you found yourself in.
I am so thankful that a number of factors (which I now believe to be simply the grace of God) kept me from accepting Gothard's invitation to work at headquarters and in Flint to "write a course" on a subject I felt I had no knowledge or expertise on. I ignored and pushed aside my reservations about his behaviour, but oh, how I wish I would have said something now.
Lizzie,
I am so very sorry for what you went through. You were a young innocent girl and you were being preyed upon by a man who violated your trust and your parent's trust. The behavior you describe of Gothard is appalling. It is especially appalling to those of us who remember the strict standards and requirements within ATI. I am so sorry for the anguish you understandibly experienced by Gothard's sexual harassment. What is even more disturbing is that it was the sexual harassment of you and other innocent young ladies and girls of whom some were minors. You state you were only 17 years old when his advances began? The behavior you described would be grounds for dismissal were he a teacher in a public school, and while I am not familiar with laws, possibly some type of charges filed against him for being a sexual predator of a minor. I find your testimony of your experience extremely disturbing and it breaks my heart that there are probably many other girls who are encountering this abuse while Gothard remains cloaked under the guise of a 'godly man.' It appears that everyone is in such a state of disbelief and denial, that they are second guessing what is blatantly obvious.
Unfortunately I was an ATI parent and my daughter, who is very beautiful, was invited by Gothard to go to HQ. At the time I remember being disappointed that she declined, but I trusted her instincts for declining. I am now very grateful that she did not go up there to stay. However, I would hope that somehow this matter is pursued. I am deeply concerned that other young ladies and girls will encounter this sexual predatory behavior and experience the confusion and anguish which you did.
I am so very sorry to all of the previously ATI young ladies and young men of whom such high standards were expected. This is not right, nor is it fair to learn of Gothard's sinful behavior. I pray God will shine His light to continue to expose truth and bring healing. Thank you for the courage it took to write this article Lizzie and speak out.
On a final note I would like to ask Amy who commented a couple of posts back to tell us about Gothard's possible marriage in the 90's? I have never heard about that and it is apparently not well known.
Thanks again Lizzie,
Maddy
Cuh-razy.
I have never seen Gothard without a suitcoat on. Okay, maybe briefly. I can't even imagine him without shoes :p
I worked at HQ for almost two years, and definitely noticed his female assistants would always fit the attractive blonde profile, and he also seemed overly protective of the girls who worked at HQ. I never noticed any of Gothard's more overt advances, but this is probably because I didn't work closely with him (we seemed to have a mutual distaste and distrust of one another) and wasn't in a position to observe.
While not doubting the veracity of the article, I was incredulous that this could have been so endemic without someone confronting Gothard ... I would have called him on the carpet (and yes, I did confront and argue with him on at least one occasion in a very public forum ... it was fun).
So, after reading the article, I asked around, and learned that after I left in 2002 one of the department heads did confront him. I also learned that while this specific person was not the first to confront Bill, he was the first to force the issue and go to the board of directors ... and it was not until after the board forbade co-ed trips that Bill stopped taking women with him on his travels.
The whistle blower department head left IBLP shortly thereafter, of his own volition. I don't think I know anyone left working there, so I don't know if the co-ed ban is still in effect or not.
Was the whistle blower GF?
I applaud whomever this department head was, but he was not the first to go to the board. It had happened at least once before, in 1997, after which Gothard still persisted in the co-ed trips for a half decade, if he did stop then. The trips provided Gothard with the greatest opportunity for relative privacy with young women, but by no means the only opportunity. His behavior was not confined to those trips.
I hope, for the sake of current female staffers who catch his eye, that Gothard has reformed his behavior. There are, however, reports of him being physically "hands-on" with girls as recently as this past year.
I hope so too Lizzie. I should clarify, I misunderstood the story as it was relayed to me ... the person I know was not the first to complain to the board (my misunderstanding relaying this second hand). However, it was after his complaint (not the first one, obviously) that the board put a stop to the trips ... and I hope chastised him for the behavior in general. Blessings to you. Thanks for sharing your story, I am sure God will use it to bring healing and peace to many, and hopefully bring accountability to a man who hasn't been held to account for far too long.
I have really struggled with your story, Lizzie. Not because I don't believe you. I do. Because I saw this over and over. And I know at least three of the people who were with you on that San Jose trip. One of them refuses to talk about their experiences at HQ to this day. So, yes, I believe your story.
But I struggle with it because it has brought to the surface some feelings and some memories that I didn't even know were there. God and I will be dealing with them. But I want to share them with your readers, because I think they need to hear the other side of this coin, too. Because sexual harassment DOES have another side, another set of victims.
It didn't take me long, after I arrived at HQ, to see that there were the "favoured girls" and the "not-favoured girls" at HQ. There was a third group of girls who were constantly being watched because they were suspected of being involved in unapproved behaviour, and I eventually ended up in that group. But for most of my time at HQ, I was in the middle group. I wasn't a "bad" girl; I wasn't under scrutiny; I just wasn't "special."
I was hurt that I couldn't be one of the "favoured ones." Of course, I didn't see the darker stuff that you describe as part of being in that circle ... at least, not at first. (I did later, as we've discussed in other comment threads.)
What I saw was other girls who got special treatment, special attention, special trips. And I knew that I was just as smart, just as attractive as those other girls. So I was bewildered as to why I couldn't earn such treatment.
I was in my mid-20s and a college graduate with three years of full-time work experience when I went to HQ. Despite my age and life experience, I was insecure. I yearned for approval and acceptance.
So I tried to earn my way into the "favoured" circle. I poured myself heart and soul into the ministry. Volunteering for every "work party," showing up for every special training opportunity, volunteering for extra work or for the assignments (like cleaning spots out of the carpet) that no one else wanted to do, and always looking my best. I carefully crafted my testimonies and memorized chapter after chapter of scripture. When Mr. Gothard asked the staff for input, I tried to give wise answers backed up by scripture.
But I was naive. I didn't realize that there were insuperable obstacles to my ever being one of the "favourites." Like my spiritual gift being Prophecy --- my "wise answers" sometimes meant that I ended up challenging instead of impressing. And of course, when a prophet sees injustice or hypocrisy, she can't help calling people on it. I think I gained a reputation as a brash and contentious person. It didn't help that my defense against rejection is a facade of self-confidence, so that I come across as self-assured and independent. And, though I am horribly insecure in most things, the ONE thing I am solidly secure in is my parents' love and acceptance. I told them everything. So everyone knew that there would be no secrets, no deception with Mom and Daddy. And no coming between us.
I can bless God for those things now. But back then, I was deeply confused. Wounded. Ashamed of who I was and how God made me.
And THAT is the flip side of your story. While you (and dozens of other girls like you) were being made uncomfortable by overt sexual harassment of the worst and most hypocritical kind, *I* (and dozens of girls like me) were having the stumbling blocks of envy, discontentment, and self-rejection thrown in front of us by the very man who would have condemned us harshly for such feelings.
I couldn't hate the girls: they didn't ask for it. They were just being themselves, and, I later realized, were not always comfortable with the attentions lavished on them.
I couldn't hate Mr. Gothard: He was a man of God, so he must be doing what was right. And who wouldn't surround himself with attractive supporters rather than people who might oppose him?
So I hated myself. There must be something reprehensible about who *I* was. About a girl who was a prophet. Surely God had messed up. I wasn't supposed to happen. I was a mistake. An object of horror and pity. Of COURSE a godly man wouldn't want me in his entourage. I see the wrong now, but I didn't know any better then. How many other girls were there like me?
Root of bitterness? I don't think so. Still, I will be taking it all to my Father for help in dealing with it.
But I know that Mr. Gothard would call it that. Nevertheless, I ask you, who planted it?
Wendy, I too felt this. I did have a few interactions with Mr. G and I always hoped that I would get invited to HQ. It never happened and I was very hurt. I worked so hard at the ITC in hopes that I would be noticed. Now, I thank God that I was never there...
Ditto what Sarah said! Especially thanking God I was never there. I am also very thankful that my sisters that were there were blessed with brown hair and were never in the inner circle. I have never been so thankful for brown hair!
Wendy, my memories are similar. Thanks for sharing that. It rankles, even 15 years later. I actually had Mr. G. assign 'one of T.H.E. girls' to pray with me because of that 'root of bitterness'. I wasn't and am not 'bitter'. I was defeated in the losing battle to meet all the standards of perfect commitment necessary in order to be chosen to serve where 'exceptional young people were presenting world leaders with a new approach to life.' Somehow, B.G. convinced us this was the zenith of 'worth'. I'm so grateful our worth is not in our works, appearance, or zeal, but IN CHRIST. No man can take that worth away from us!!!!!!
Unfortunately, the IBLP Board of Directors and advisers follow the same pattern of misuse by Gothard. Otherwise successful and godly men are selected to serve, so long as they may be used by him. When they speak up forcefully, they are summarily dismissed. (Likewise with staff.) This pattern has repeated itself over the decades.
We should pray that his current Board will push through the fog and realize that they bear full responsibility for the organization's teachings and actions. This is not a time for them to be defensive or timid. Pray that in boldness these men will dig in until Bill Gothard PROVES accountable, fully, for decades of deceit.
AMEN!!!
Am I the only one who sees this? This is not sexual harassment. It goes way beyond that. It is predatory behavior that ANY public school teacher would be dismissed for. Playing footsy??? Holding hands and rubbing them extensively? Refusing to leave a teen's bedroom? This is sexual predatory behavior that is being discussed. Describe the actions to any public school official and they will confirm that fact. I think we are all still suffering from denial when everyone does not blatantly see that sexual predatory behavior has been revealed to us. Sorry, but just my humble opinion.
I agree, Maddy. A teacher would get fired for it. A youth pastor would be removed for it. It's totally predatory.
The clinical term is 'grooming.' The predator 'grooms' his victims by conditioning them to his presence, touch, voice, etc. Grooming may takes days, weeks, or months. It looks very innocent at the beginning and can be explained away by the predator (if someone is willing to buy his story). The experience Lizzie shared (and thank you, Lizzie for having the courage to come forward with your story. It must have been very difficult) reads like a classic case of grooming. Every parent should be aware of the characterics of grooming and be alert to any adult who pays too much attention to or gives too many compliments to their young people.
Ok Wendy. I'm a parent of 5 kids. So tell me where I can get this info on "grooming" so that I can protect my babies and empower them to protect themselves from these insidious monsters.
Alfred???? You have beautiful daughters too. Pay attention!!
If you 'google' 'grooming behaviors' a long list of sites will come up. Most of them are child protection services offering information to help parents know what to look for. Some give greater detail than others .
What scares me is that if Gothard has groomed so many girls (and yes, the behavior described is grooming), then it's almost certain that his actions have gone past harassment and into sexual abuse and/or rape/statutory rape. Something needs to be done to protect the young people who have the misfortune to be in his path today and in the future.
Good point, Maddy. You are right.
This is my feeling... I've seen post of FB, saying everything from unwated sexual attention from a man is the victim's fault- " he needs to be forgiven and restored..." what the HECK? he needs to be stopped and held accountable.
What is the step from here? How do we demand that he is held accountable? picketing? CBS? -And once again, the victims have to go through the trauma of retelling their experiences!
I'm so thankful that my family never truely "drank the ATI cool-aid" I'm so grateful that I have red hair, that I never went to Headquarters, that I turned down a request to work and a training center...
Thanks so much for speaking the truth and may God bring you healing- A great resource is Pure Desire Ministries.
Being a recent graduate from Verity (15 years after this story!!!) you'd think that this would be a thing from the past...come on his hormones have gotta slow down at some point right? Wrong. When we drove to Journey of the Heart (6 hour drive at least) Mr. G would spend his hours in the girls bus, going from one to another asking quite personal questions. I remember he asked a good friend of mine straight out where her menstrual cycles were and if she wanted to serve God by working at HQ (she wasn't even 16 at the time...culinary arts student). I noticed how he had his band of happy guys who surrounded him as assistants but how he4 always spent time with the girls, getting to know them and what their issues were.
There was this one girl he took aside and, not liking her wardrobe asked if he could buy her a few outfits. He called and pestered her personally, going around her parents (she's 20 now...).
Unfortunately he was able to rope in one of my female classmates (blonde, 20-ish, and very attractive, also very soft-spoken and very INNOCENT). He never asks any of the guys to go to HQ...strange.
Good for you in taking a stand and speaking up Lizzie. Out of all the stories shared on this site, yours has the potential for the greatest backlash as many will probably refuse to believe you. But truth can be painful and yet you spoke it. I hope that your sharing this will strengthen other girls to step forward. No easy task when confronting the head of an enormous organization like IBLP. But these must be brought to light, and you will undoubtedly help parents avoid sending their daughters into a dangerous situation. I know for my wife and I, we will not be exposing our daughters to such influences.
Which is an overall pity as the idea of a homeschool community such as is dreamed about by IBLP leadership could be a world changing force, if it was truly grounded upon the Bible
David Auge,
There are guys who get invited to HQ, and this is one of them.
http://staddonfamily.com/2007/01/03/a-new-adventure/
But, by what criteria do they get invited? Hard to say. Keep on sharing, folks. Thanks for sharing your story, Lizzie. The ATI homeschool conference is next weekend(whether it starts then, or this week I don't know, but those are the dates I saw) and let's continue to pray for those attending. I look forward to reading part 2......
Obviously guys were invited to HQ because a lot of them worked there--I often wondered why we didn't hear of young 14-year-old boys being asked to go up there. It IS kind of weird that beautiful 14 year old girls were asked to go, but not many boys were asked to go that young.
Thanks for clearing that up, Beverly.
I was at HQ around the time this story occurred, and knew personally several of the people involved. I am not surprised by this story. I was not one of BG's "chosen girls" although I was aware that he had favorites, and that there were varying degrees of jealousy on the part of non-favorite girls at HQ. From my observations, however, BG's favorites were also more closely scrutinized, and when they toppled from the pedestal for whatever reason BG chose, it was a long and ugly fall. I much preferred my relative anonymity. I was attractive enough, my hair was an adequate length, and I worked hard at any jobs I was given. I made myself indispensable, and was discreetly protected by my bosses for any inadvertent rule-breaking like working past curfew. BG knew I was on his staff, but he regularly forgot my name. It was hard to get sent home if you were barely remembered, and I was happy there. It was an exciting place to be for a sheltered 17-year-old. But I was also very innocent, and very naive about the ways of the world.
Indiscretions such as what is described in this story were not widely known among the staff. However, because we knew he had favorites, (and because we were immature and unsuspecting) we did enjoy teasing BG and "his girls" behind their backs. They all had the "soft curls that frame the face," as dictated by one of his Wisdom Booklets. They were all very young, usually petite, and very pretty. Blond seemed to be his favorite hair color, although two of his favorites that come to my mind were brunettes. We called them "Bill's Little Pets," a play on the last three letters of IBLP. And we wondered about them, what they actually did for him. Because they were often still school age, with very few workforce skills.
I remember one girl who was 14. She wasn't an "encouragement case," as we called the students sent to HQ as punishment for misbehaving at home. She was just a very young, pretty girl who smiled all the time, and was well-loved by the entire staff. But what did she *do*? And why did her father let her come? For that matter, why did BG *ask* her to come? To finish out her home schooling sitting in his office? It was strange. But we didn't question Bill's morals. We just shrugged our shoulders, because he was eccentric, and we wanted to be there, too. Why not her?
Nobody ever talked badly about BG at HQ. It was an unspoken taboo, since there were "spies" for him everywhere. Getting told on for insubordination would end up in a call to his office and a suggestion that maybe HQ wasn't where God wanted us. But off-campus, tongues would wag. I went on a trip to another state with some fellow HQ students for a wedding, and a co-worker and I were placed in a room together. At some point during our late-night conversation while waiting to fall asleep in the strange room, she began to whisper to me things that weighed on her mind. On a recent van trip, she had sat on a bench behind Bill Gothard and one of his favorites. My co-worker was not one of BG's regular posse, but was hitching a ride as a member of HQ staff. The ride was long, and went well into the night. She told me that she happened to look out her window, and in the nighttime reflection, she could see into the seat in front of her. Bill sat close to his companion, his fingers entwined intimately with the girl's. Shocked, my friend looked up and saw the two of them gazing at each other. She couldn't believe her eyes. His fingers lightly brushed across the girl's hand as they sat. My friend sat there quietly, sick to her stomach, afraid to move, and said nothing the entire trip.
Telling me, she was in tears. "I don't know what I should do," she wept. "Who would I tell? Who would believe me?" I was only 17, and didn't know the answer, either. There was nobody above Mr. Gothard *to* tell. All the grownups did exactly as he said. They nodded and smiled and always agreed with his schemes, no matter now crazy or impractical. There was nobody to tell. So we lay there in the dark and worried for the little girl whose heart was turning toward that of a 60-something bachelor who knew better. We still didn't suspect him of further foul play than what she had seen. But we were nonetheless sick about it. If anyone else had done what she saw Gothard doing, they would have endured a public humiliation in front of the entire staff, then given a plane ticket "to the backside of the desert" as BG called getting sent home, to consider the magnitude of their sins. We knew this, because we had seen it happen many times.
My innocence was tarnished that day, as was my belief in Bill Gothard's standards, rules, and regulations that my family had so carefully practiced since our induction the second year of ATI. I knew that I was not in Utopia. And more importantly for me personally, I now understood that I was being manipulated. It was the first time I actively protected my parents from knowing the truth, because I thought it would crush them. They had so much trust in the program. It was the beginning of the end for me.
It breaks my heart to hear this story!!!! I was back at HQ for a very short time with journey to the heart. I noticed Bill paid special attention to the "pretty" girls. These girls were praised by him and he did special little things for them. As for me well I wasn't in this group I had a counseling session with Gothard and according to him, everything I did wasn't enough. I will also say I felt like most of the guys there wasn't truly respectful to the women there. We were just women.........
Where's that defender of Bill's reputation when facts are on the line? Funny, he was so adamant at Gothard's innocence then, and now, nothing. Hmmmm....
You know, these episodes of bill's and his "holier than thou" don't surprise me one bit,,,Just take a look at King David and his response to the Prophet when he was confronted about his adultery w/ Bathseba and the following murder of Uriah.David was so proud and arrogant and ready for judgement till Nathan said "You are the man!!"--then David was broken---well,, somebody ( a group of men)in the organization needs to man up and say"Hey bill,, you are the man that is guilty!"(bill still wouldn't get it though)
You are correct. Perhaps the strictness enforced on ATI young men is born out of hidden sin in this area? Same as David's arrogance toward the person guilty of such sin, who of course ultimately turned out to be him. You have made a very valid point and possibly exposed the true reason ATI young men were treated with such strictness and suspicion in regard to young ladies.
Wow. You may have just nailed it. It is true that when you hear someone (like a pastor) spending a lot of EXCESS time and energy on a particular subject it is probably because they struggle with it. Also, if they are EXCESSIVLY vocal about another person's sin/failure in that particular area. An example that comes to mind: I was in college when Jim Bakker (of PTL club/resort) fell from grace amid a big sexual scandel. Jimmy Swaggert was all over the news condemning him and his sin. My psychology professor commented that Jimmy's reaction to the scandel was out of balance for a 'healthy' individual and that he most likeley stuggled with the same sin. It was only six months later when the news story came out about Jimmy Swaggert and some prostitutes. It was a huge eye-openner and life-lesson for me.
That's exactly right about sexual perverts and predictors. You can just about bet that the person who is merciless to others is often guilty of the same sins and worst. He is truly a preditor of a sort and manages to keep control of himself in order, I believe, to keep the free help coming to continue to build his empire. It's usually about sex, money and power. He may have managed to not go all the way with sexual abuse but He has committed religious abuse through manipulation which has keep the money and young folks coming to build his empire.
What you say has gone through my head many times about bill.He may just have a real problem w/lust.....
That's exactly what cult leaders of polygamous sects do - force out the younger men on various pretenses so they don't create any competition.
On the other hand, that's also what Hugh Hefner and African lions do... so, I mean, I guess it isn't just a religious thing. Ha.
I don't really agree with the first part. I think it's about control and power and that these actions are just another form of his manipulation. I have yet to encounter any evidence it has gone beyond this with him personally, nor overt sexual action a necessary extension of Gothards harrassment.
However, as the examples of his brother and former ATI director demostrate, Gothards actions and attitudes towards young ladies creates a dangerous environment where others will take advantage of young women in more sexually overt ways.
In the context of the absurd levels to which the teachings of authority and chastity by the Institute are taken, these sorts of accusations and experiences are at least troubling, especially given Gothard's status in the eyes of IBLP and the ilk as the greatest saint in recent history.
But in real-world terms, while behavior like this should not be tolerated, and while the feelings and experiences of those involved need to be respected, when all we have are stories, it's hard to form a complete and honest opinion through them.
I have to disagree. In the real world I live in........young ladies in school making such an accusation would be heard. The alleged perpetrator would be investigated immediately. In addition,in the real world, anyone given the trust to work with chilldren/minors, if there was the multitude of accusations I have read by these students, that person would be removed UNTIL it could be ascertained that the accusations were false. In the real world they have become well acquainted with tricks of pedophiles and predators. While uncomfortable for the accused, if truly innocent, in the REAL WORLD they no longer take any chances for the protection of children/minors. Is Bill Gothard above the standards that the REAL WORLD sets?
Maddy, you win the internets today.
"like" It is well-played on Bill Gothard's part to teach separation from and fear of the greater community or real world. Abuse is able to continue when people are kept isolated and undeducated. In the case of BG, the isolation is not physical. People have voluntarily given their minds to him to shape their thinking.
Wendy, I brought up the Real World in response to ford prefect's statement that although he respects the victims, these are stories that need to be validated and he/she commented on the Real World. Frankly, don't you think that the church should be the one with the higher standard over the world in this area? At least most definitely.....the ATI world where the bar was set so high for students struggling to just be Christian kids and grow up in the process? Whereas Gothard is an adult man, the standard should be MUCH higher. I repeatedly see excuses for him. And ATI students, just kids really, were crushed under the weight of these strict standards. Where, oh where is this measure of judgement for Gothard? His teaching about the world looking on the outward appearance and to be above reproach? Where is Gothard when the table is turned I ask? His followers protect and excuse him. Forgive me, as I do not mean to sound arrogant, but, I feel like a lone voice crying in the wilderness. Where are the other parents such as myself who walked smack dab into the middle of Gothard's cult and now all of you kids are left picking up the pieces from the fallout in its failure? You were all wounded, I was wounded, so many have been wounded and while the RG ministry is wonderful and greatly appreciated.......more needs to be done. More needs to be done to stop the hurt and pain in the lives of others that are still being led into this ministry. I wish someone had stopped Gothard's ministry before it had a chance to bleed into my life that's for sure!! Now I may not have agreed with that when I was caught up in the cult, but I see it crystal clear now. Something needs to be done. I do not know what, but something. And parents need to come forward also, we need to show our children we are repentant for our pride and failures by speaking out. Sorry.....just mho and I do not mean to rant here. But I do believe God would have us to speak out in truth against injustice and false prophets. Jesus is the only way, and where the spirit of God is there is liberty.
Amen, Maddy! Thank you for bringing that heart-felt parents' perspective into this! It would have been wonderful for us kids to be protected. I hope what RG is accomplishing now though is safety for the next generation of kids. The first generation of kids are now adults left picking up the pieces. We don't want the second generation to go through the same heartache and abuse that we experienced.
I hope that any parent with half a thinking mind and heart will see through the facade of Gothard's actions and realize that what he's doing with young 14- and 15-year-old girls is NOT normal behavior, nor even decent grandfatherly behavior. My grandfather loved me and I loved him, but if he had ever spent long moments caressing my hands with his and staring deeply into my eyes, or playing footsy with my feet, I would have been creeped out to the highest level. It's not a matter of having a "love language of physical touch" but a matter of repeatedly crossing boundaries and pushing yourself upon girls who are highly uncomfortable with that contact. Even if they ARE comfortable with that kind of contact, in the real world you are seen as a predator. Case in point: if a 14- or 15-year-old girl falls in love with a teacher at school and enters a relationship with them, the teacher is *always* charged. It's not the young girl's fault for having those emotions--it's the teachers fault for not protecting the child and THEY are prosecuted as the predator. Gothard is allowing emotions to develop in these girls that he knows he cannot fulfill. And he's crossing every line imaginable in the process while maintaining a facade of holiness. At what point do we hold him accountable for his actions?!!
My point is simply that without an investigation, we must be very careful about our conclusions.
I'm pretty sure that sharing your story before there is an investigation is perfectly legitimate. And this is a Christian organization that claims to run by the mandates of Scripture. According to the Scriptural "principle" (sorry, I couldn't resist), of dealing with accusations against a minister, with this many witnesses against him, it's justified to accept these accounts and take a stand.
So start an investigation people. Whomever has been sexually harrassed, get with others and start the ball rolling!
Denise, that's exactly what I'm saying! Some people may not wish to come forward because of the desire to forgive and such, and I understand and respect that; however think of an entire generation of young ladies, whom, right now may be enduring the same or worse than they endured.. Please speak up and out! I have never met BG, (THANK YOU JESUS!), but I know the wounds I and my family received (and are still enduring) from his teachings. His cult needs to be taken down, and his followers need to know the truth. I pity him, can he be truly saved, after all he has done, perverting justice and righteousness? Only God knows, but BG needs to be stopped, for the sakes of his past, present, and future victims.
from what I've seen, there has been much care taken to verify face, and even get 2+ witnesses... I think the next step is to call the cops or media...
My husband also saw Gothard playing footies/sexually harassing young females in the vans on the way to the ITC once.
If you are a parent reading this who still has children at the training centers or HQs, please listen to these stories, folks. There is something very, very wrong with what is being described. Listen to your instincts to protect your young. Please.
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Maddy, thank you for your words! It is healing for me to hear parents admit to being deceived and express regret over what happened. Trust me when I say, I had it easier than some but the wounds are deep. It has been over 10 years and I still struggle daily as I work through the fruit of Bill's teachings in my life.
Maddy, please forgive me for not being more clear. When I said "well-played on Bill Gorthard's part," I meant well-played as a cult leader (sarcasm intended). I absolutely agree with everything you have said. I do believe the church should be the example for the world to follow. I think the high-standard set for ATI kids had more to do with BG's need for control and power over his people and less to do with being rightous. I believe that BG has more in common with cult leaders than with godly Christian leaders. I believe Bill Gothard is a master manipulator and spin artist. I think narcissism and anti-soical traits are also present. I believe these personality traits have been there from the beginning but as he has grown in power over the decades, he has grown in boldness. I think BG has used Christianity as his tool to build his empire to his own glory. I think he needs to be exposed on an international level but I am not sure it will be over doctrinal issues. The public may think we are just Christians squabbling among ourselves. However, I think there is enough abuse and inappropriate behavior to draw an investigation. Maddy, I am not sure what you thought I was saying? I think we are on the same side?
My husband is a clinical psychologist with a specialty in neuro-psychology and we have had so many conversations over the years regarding BG. I do not have the same strong biblical background as some of the others on this site but we do see the psychological problems with him and his organization.
...and boundary violations...I forgot to mention the unending stream of boundary violations. He tries to be too many roles to his people (like a cult leader).
Wendy, I'm sorry I was confusing. We are definitely on the same side. My rant was not intended at you. I was responding to you from a conversational standpoint and got carried away :-)
I agree with you about everything, but would like to add to the list whatever psychological term would be appropriate for men that believe men are above women, stronger, smarter etc., which I guess that is the power thing. I definitely believe there is a problem in that regard also. Perhaps your husband knows the psycholocical term for that? Surely there must be one? Also, if his followers protect and cover him from these accusations they are akin to what the Catholic Church did many years ago in regard to priests who were pedophiles and realized only too late the horrible damage being perpetuated within their denomination. So I think in some ways that yes, we do need to make sure and not hastily jump to conclusions as ford prefect states. We are not his judge and jury. But those in the proper position need to make sure they are not turning a blind eye. That is the easy thing to do and what is the most damaging. Of course this is all mho and I am certainly no authority. But based on what I am reading, there is certainly much that a public school or a church would remove a teacher/youth pastor for and launch an extensive investigation. In fact, both of those entities would place the responsibility on the teacher/youth pastor, if appearance of evil took place. In fact a school would suggest the teacher go to a different school etc. to calm all parental fears etc. if they determined the teacher was in fact innocent. You see, after escaping from Gothard's cult I found myself working in a public school for almost 5 years, until last January. I was most pleasantly surprised. In fact, for ANY school social function, all doors were locked and the only parents allowed to chaperone events were required to have full finger print clearance through the state. This is how serious the school took protection of the students. My experience and exposure to the great pains taken to provide a safe and secure environment by the public school system are mainly why I make these claims about Bill Gothard. If the public school system takes such extensive measures to protect children.....shouldn't an organization that claims utmost godliness?
Grace, I am glad my words help you. I am ashamed of my involvement with ATI and only wish I could turn back the clock on the horrible legalism I subjected my children to. Not only does legalism place a heavy burden, it steals away the loving parent/child relationship because of trying to enforce all these ridiculous rules. How could I have been so stupid? It was always right thee for me to see............You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain-if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Galatians 3:1-5 NASB)............ Yes, I am still healing too, and trying to erase where scripture was twisted.
Maddy, I have also been pleased and impressed with the lengths the public schools in our area go to in order to protect our children. There is a large, mega-church nearby and they also go to great lengths in the area of youth security as well as the mid-sized church we attend. Pedaphiles will go where the children/young people are. I agree that the church should be ahead of the game instead of playing catch up in the area of child protection.
I think the word for a man who hates women and thinks he is superior to them is chauvinist/sexist (instead of dealing with an individual, one assigns a number of traits based on their gender, eg. all women are bad at math, regardless of accuracy). It is not neccesarily uncommon but becomes a problem when that person becomes powerful enough to make policy/create doctrine to support his distorted views.
If Bill Gothard ever goes before a judge, I imagine there are a lot of people who would like to be on that jury. I think the admonishment to 'not judge' needs to be revisited. We do not judge people's souls but there is a lot we do judge and that we should be judging. I made all kinds of judgements about who I allowed my young people to be with when they were little. I did not allow them to spend the night at just anyone's house. A con-artist who knows Christian doctrine will not hesitate to play that card. What they really don't want you to do is to call out their act. It has nothing to do with concern over the state of your soul. I believe many people have contacted BG over the years and he has ignored them...and I think they went away.
Wendy,
(I had to reply above you as it would not allow me to reply below).
I think the term I was searching for was Misogynistic. I am attaching some information as I feel it would definitely fit the profile of what the Gothard organization perpetuates in regards to women:
According to sociologist Allan G. Johnson, "misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female." Johnson argues that:
"Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies.
Michael Flood defines misogyny as the hatred of women, and notes:
"Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making.
Also, perhaps I was misunderstood? I was not admonishing anyone to not judge, my attempt by that comment was to state that something needs to be DONE in regard to the situation and not mere talking. I was stating that while I do not know how, surely someone out there does, AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE "DONE" about the situation these young people have relayed.
to ford prefect- how do you investigate a man that wont let you in to do just that and cuts off the parents and children of his ministry so he can make sure that they wont feel like they will be protected by the things in the real world? what you say can make sense to some that dont have children or dont know or have not lived in the situation. if you fit any of these situations, you of course would not understand. this web site is to warn people of what the children that went to HQ, training centers, children institute ministries,etc. we are trying to be a voice to people to help them make a chice based on better info. then just listening to Mr. G. i was never one of his favorites, but i had a leader in training that he liked and when he came to the indianapolis training center where i worked, he would have someone come and wake me up at 11:00 pm to talk to me about her. that alone was weird. i was awake till 10 pm and i had seen him all day doing one thing or another, but yet he wakes me up when im asleep!?!? he likes people in a vunerable state when he sees them. he likes to always have the advantage. he will do everything to his advantage and think first of himself and not for the comfort of others. i may not have seen him in 16 years and i can still say that what i learned back then is still true today!!! we need to pray for the kids in his ministry and the parents as well that have been sucked into his idea of chistianity.
He came in your room while you were asleep? CREEPY!!!!!!! What if your pajamas were insufficient to cover you properly? (course I imagine pjs would have to have been approved up there. I'm so glad I never went there. sheesh!)
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Maddy,
The term of misogynistic that you used is correct and aptly applied. I apologize in that I got distracted in my comment - I do not think you were admonishing people not to judge. You are clear in your call for accountablity and I took off in a different direction. I am trying to say that I think there is a time to judge and we do not need to back down from that (I am new to the whole commenting-on-posts-arena and I am learning how speak/type clearly without offending...sigh)I was trying to encourage what you are already doing but it clearly did not come across that way. That part of my comment was not directed to you personally but was meant to come alongside your comment...I did not make that clear (I will get better at this). Something does need to be done and I think this blog is one way to raise awareness.
I am not sure how strong the board of directors is at IBLP but my guess is that Bill chooses the Board and that the Board members recommend others to the board so I do not know who much they will or can do? They have not done much over the past 35 years to keep Bill in line with scripture or behavior so I do not have much hope that they can do anything now. I think on these types of boards where the organization is really a one-man show, if a strong person speaks up in opposition they are asked to leave or they leave out of frustration because they cannont effect change.
Do these stories not also remind you of Michael Jackson and his "Neverland" ranch? Peter Pan was the boy who never grew up. Gothard's properties are his play places, and he surrounds himself with young people. He is the king, yet acts as a boy. Nothing wrong with loving children, in the right way, but he is childish at best. At worst, an 80 year old man who knows better. This is the man who would reveal the meaning of God's Word to us?!
Amen Jay!!
Thank you for sharing. I would also comment but-- it looks like everyone else has said pretty much what I think. :)
I am not doubting a thing here but just want to say that he hasn't always been a 78 (80) year old man. When we first heard him in the 1970s he was probably not more than his 40s. It's a pattern of maybe more than 40 years.
yes, and the LA Times article from April, 1982 quoted his personal assistant of 9 years that he had been controlling about what she wore, how she did her nails, her friendships, and her letters to her parents. 1982 was 30 years ago and she had been his assistant for 9 years so that gives you 40 years right there. The complaints she had were not quite as extensive as here but it sure seems to describe a pattern.
Yes, Matthew, and it's important also to remember a little thing called "escalation." Maybe once, back in the old days, it was just a fascination. Then a nagging temptation. Then, as he kept "getting away with it," he gradually was emboldened. It happens with serial killers--they start thinking they'll never be caught, and they become more and more blatant. Why not with perversion?
Mr. G. HAS been confronted with the very words of Nathan the prophet..."you are that man". That person, as well as many others who confronted him, was just ignored...
Ann - I think you just summed up what all of us had to say with your one post......
Mr G. mastered the art of living in the "non existing" gray areas of life. He can't be charged with any crime because, well, it's only hand holding. Other can't but Mr G.can! It's classic religious abuse that can't be tried in any earthly court but God's heavenly court is different. We lived in the training centers for 2 years and it's full of hypocrisy. When you go into a business and the service is poor, you know what kind of management they have. Well all of the religious abuses that these young people have all experienced in all the training centers is a reflection on the leader, Mr. G. He will face the almighty judge who will judge righteously. God help the man who has offended them.
Yep. Mine and my family's experiences have convinced me that the spiritual abuse is from the top down.
Wow....my eyes have been opened! I have friends that have told horror stories to me...but it was not directly related back to Mr Gothard....although, I did hear he liked blondes. I am sick to my stomach over this story! I am just sick!
Mine, too. Out of all the Godly, amazing friends I had in the TC, the only girl Mr. G ever spoke to of my close friends fit his "type" described here perfectly. Blonde, soft curls, tall, beautiful, slender, tailored attire. I was confused by his attentions to her, calling her into his room for personal discussions and showing her favoritism (I remember her laughing it away as an oddity, and saying, "Yeah, he loves me. I pretty much can do no wrong. I don't get it."); don't get me wrong, she was a wonderful girl, but nowhere near to being the most passionate or most devoted. So many others would have been better poised for ministry, and actually desired involvement--but she was convinced that her life was heading a totally different direction and that God had plans for her elsewhere. Not according to Mr. G! He tried so long and so hard to talk her out of it! Thank God she was firm in her convictions, and unswayed by anything he said!!!
Denise, your comment reminds me of this scripture..............but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6 NASB)
That's right!
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What a nasty pervert he is. I am so sorry you had to put up with something like that. He is a predator plain and simple and will never stop until someone stops him. He will be judged someday though even if its not on this earth, he will have to stand before God and give an account of his actions.
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I'm heartsick about your experience. I hope that telling it will help you to heal completely.
I attended the Basic Seminar almost 40 years ago, and I read Gothard's Character Sketches to my kids. (Thankfully we did not use Gothard's curriculum in our homeschooling because his conditions were too authoritarian even for us.)
Your story motivated a blog post I wrote this morning on Gothard's "umbrella of protection." You can read it here if you wish: http://pathofthebeagle.com/2012/04/25/umbrella-of-protection/
My heart goes out to you and all who have suffered under Gothardism.
Larry,
Thank you so much for your support! It means a lot! Thanks also for helping to spread the word about the fallacies of this man and this dangerous cult!
Because he is located in Oak Brook, IL, can't someone call the Police Department and make an inquiry or a suggestion that something unnatural is going on?
It bothers me that I have been gone from that atmosphere for almost 20 years and yet I am just realizing how blinded I was to his control over me! I had been working in Indianapolis when he asked me to come work for him in Headquarters. We had private meetings in his office to discuss the details and for him to tell me that I had a bright smile, but the mole I had on my face needed to come off so it would be as bright as God would want it to be. He even called my Dad several times to discuss this. I was confused, if God made me this way, why would BG want me to change it? The mole was removed. After I arrived to Headquarters, he asked me to make food for him and had me in his office to discuss how things were going and to ask my oppinion on mail he received. He did comment on my hair and there was some physical touch, but I brushed it off on just being friendly. There were other confusing inconsistancies going on around me and I did not stay for very long because I couldn't handle the pressure and it has laid heavy on me all this time b/c I look back at that time thinking that I was not a very good Christian b/c I was weak and have failed God most of my life! Now, I know that God loves me not b/c of who I am or what I have done, but b/c of who He is and what He has done. But, I am still working through all this.
Kristen,
I am so sorry you have felt that way for so long. It has amazed me (in my life)that those feelings are so deep and remained buried for so long. I have also been working through feeling like I wasn't a good enough christian. I am so grateful to now understand God's grace a little better. Forgetting who God is impacted my life in such a way that it affected every area of my life. I am so glad you are here! This has been such a place of healing for me personally. Knowing that it wasn't just me has helped a whole lot as well!
Perhaps a call to the Oak Brook or Chicago area District Attorney's office might be a place to start. They can answer questions and give further direction.
The reason the board cannot take more action than they have is because it is written in the by-laws that the president of IBLP (BG) cannot be fired. If the board tries to hold him accountable, he just gets rid of the "offending" board members at the end of the year. (one year terms). Various people have tried to get some of those things changed, with no success.
How can IBLP be a legal organization if the president can't be removed by election or impeachment? He's not the president of an organization, he's a king of a cult!!!
Usually the board can change the bylaws. Or, if the "president" can't be fired, give him a new title like "O Great One"...elevate someone else to president...and fire BG. Case solved.
The inability of a board of directors to terminate an employee in the by-laws seems like a very strange clause. It's possible that the clause, if there is in fact such a clause in the IBLP by-laws, is not legally valid. Plus the Board can always change the by-laws, so it's hard to see how effective that would be.
The IBLP board of directors holds the legal jurisdiction to dissolve the corporation and distribute the assets of the non-profit organization to other non-profits.
I was also at Headquarters from 1997-1998. I was chosen from a conference at Indianapolis and told that I was going to HQ immediately. At the time, I was honored. I respect Mr. Gothard enough to not go into any details, but I do think that he enjoyed female companionship. As an attractive redhead I know that I got special privileges.
I think I know Liz, but either way I pray for blessings on her life.
Jamie
Jamie, I'm not quite sure just why you would respect Mr. Gothard after all these true experiences of those who suffer. And your own for that matter. You don't need to go into details but just your comment that he "enjoyed female companionship" is incriminating in itself.
yuk.
I have a hard time respecting anyone who says they are a man of God and who does things like that. I would have more respect if he admitted it and stepped down. It is a double standard. Anyway, my grandmother would say he is," a dirty old man".
it's almost as if he's courting his 'fantasy' girl in a very sick wrong abusive and twisted way. he reminds me of Warren Jeffs the cult leader of the FLDS. jeffs growing up had such a bad self image and loathed himself that when he gained power he forced the very kinds of ppl who rejected him as a kid to do whatever he wanted which included sexual & spiritual abuse. these ppl are narcissistic sociopathic scary ppl.
In response to Christy and to Eliza, I think the only way Gothard can be stopped is if all the "board" members resign together. Or, following yet another who stands up to him and gets fired, the rest leave, and he has trouble finding any others to serve on the board. Let's pray for the board members, and their families. God can use anything. It can get ugly(like THEIR children allegedly becoming "rebellious" for standing up for themselves like many of you here have shared) but God is bigger.
God, thank You for Lizzie, for Emily, for Liz her mom, and many others. I pray for the board members and their families. May Your truth be revealed, and protect them through the ugliness that may come. Your will be done. Thank You that You are bigger. In Jesus' name, amen
My family and I lived at HQ as a staff family for a short period of time. Mr. G would say remarks to me that if they were said by someone else, would be considered inappropriate. He held my hand and rubbed my arm or shoulder numerous times. When I would complain to my mom, she would almost seem flattered that one of her offspring could find favor with Mr. G. She would always tell us that he just pictured himself as a father figure to us all. Regardless, I was still creeped out. My own father was never even physical like that and I kept my distance from Mr. G as best I could until I left HQ.
There were lots of times that girls would be working on “special Projects” in his office long after everyone else went home for the night and long after his sister left his office. I always felt a little uncomfortable with this but on one ever seemed to think anything of it, even my parents.
I probably will be slammed for saying this. You better know, that if you throw rocks at someone who has tried to bring a lot of people to GOd, those rocks will eventually come back to you. THat is for any person who tries to serve God. I do not believe Karma, but most people would say it is BAD KARMA! I would watch out. That is the same for any person who tries to serve God. GO TALK TO THE MAN IF YOU HAVE A PROLEM, have you done that? ONLY GOD CAN CONVICT. But I think it is best to pray for him. I was in this for a long time. I was never a favorite. However, I have seen it all, I think you are skating on thin ice to blow things up just because your are disgruntled about something or another that was not meant in the way you took it. If you understand a person and put yourself in their shoes, you will not be so quick to accuse. He is not perfect. He has shaken my hand, and asked me to go to headquarters. If you have a problem Matt. 18 says go to talk to the person. You do not have to be vindictive. Every person who has made a comment, get a big group of you all, and go talk to him. If you have the boldness to set up a site, and you have been hurt by this, deal with it. It is not dealing with it by putting this on here. We already live in a world where there is hardness against Christians. You are just adding fuel to the fire, however, they just group all Christians together, YOU INCLUDED, so it could hurt your witness, too. Go out and share CHRIST with the LOST world, instead of harboring bitterness, and grudges, and spreading the venom around. I AM FIRST TO SAY I HAVe SeeN A LOT GO ON THAT WAS NOT PErFECt. VOICE IT TO HIM and move ON. I work in a public setting. I deal with a lot of social concerns, there is more to life than SPREADING VENOM AROUND LIKE A SNAKE. There is a world out there that is hurting, HELP THEM. THERE are people out there that need love, LOVE THEM! THere are people out there that need prayer, PRAY FOR THEM! Move out of your self, and your VICTIM MENTALITY, and help others who are hurt like you, or HuRt MORE THAN YOU. Let me tell you, I have seen BAD cases, those things listed are like a drop in the bucket. GET IN THE WORLD, WORK WITH THE PUBLIC LIKE AS A SOCIAL WORKER, AND GET A LIFE! THAT WILL OPEN UP YOUR EYES!
You have to see the sinfulness and cruelty of your words. Utterly ridiculous. I strongly suggest you STOP YELLING at everyone and "get a life" yourself... one that doesn't include throwing stones at victims.
Well, I think you hit all the stereotypical responses. Good for you!
Beth,
YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON SISTER. THROWING ROCKS IS BAD. I HATE IT WHEN THE LITTLE KIDS THROW ROCKS AT ME, WHEN ALL I'M DOING IS HOPPING THROUGH THEIR YARD WITH MY EGG BASKET. AS FAR AS THROWING ROCKS AT SOMEONE WHO IS TRYING TO BRING PEOPLE TO GOD, AT LEAST HE'S TRYING, RIGHT? THE FACT THAT HE HAS CAUSED SO MANY TO RUN AWAY FROM GOD SHOULD IN NO WAY DETRACT FROM WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO.
THESE PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE JUST DISGRUNTLED ABOUT SOMETHING. THEY ARE PROBABLY JUST ANGRY AND BITTER FROM ALL THE ROCK MUSIC, BECAUSE THEY MAKE RANDOM UNSUBSTANTIATED ACCUSATIONS. YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THEY SHOULD GO TO HIM LIKE IN MATT 18 IF THEY REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM. EVEN THOUGH BILL GOTHARD DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THIS VERSE EXCEPT WHEN PEOPLE ARE ON THE INTERWEBZ SAYING RIDICULOUS THINGS, THESE PEOPLE SHOULD HOLD THEMSELVES TO A HIGHER STANDARD, AND PRACTICE IT EVEN THOUGH HE DOES NOT PRACTICE HIMSELF. THE FACT THAT HE NEVER EVER LISTENS WHEN PEOPLE COME TO HIM IN THE SPIRIT OF MATT 18, AND FINDS A WAY TO RESPOND WHERE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERE WRONG ALL THE TIME, AND HE IS ABOVE REPROACH, IS NO REASON NOT TO TRY AGAIN. DIDN'T JESUS SAY THAT YOU SHOULD PRACTICE MATT 18 "7 TIMES 70"? JUST BECAUSE PAUL IN 1TIMOTHY 4 SAID THAT CHRISTIANS SHOULD PUBLICLY OPPOSE FALSE TEACHERS DOESN'T MEANS YOU SHOULD DO IT. ONLY OBEY THE PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT BILL GOTHARD TELLS YOU TO, AND IGNORE WHAT HE TELLS YOU TO IGNORE.
YOU ARE RIGHT. THERE ARE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN SPREAD VENOM LIKE A SNAKE. THERE'S NOTHING THAT MAKES ME HOP INTO MY HOLE FASTER THAN A SANKE ABOUT TO SPREAD HIS VENOM ON ME. YOU SHOULD IGNORE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WRONG AND TEACHING WRONG THEOLOGY. IN FACT, NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, CITIES SHOULD LAY OFF ALL POLICEMEN, BECAUSE ALL THEY WANT TO DO IS ACCUSE YOU OF STUFF. ALL THAT MONEY SHOULD BE SPENT ON HELPING THE PEOPLE HURT BY CRIMINALS. DO NOT TRY TO STOP THE CRIMINAL. JUST HELP THE VICTIMS WITH ALL THAT MONEY WASTED ON POLICEMEN. THIS MAY SOUND EXTREME TO MOST, BUT I CAN TELL BY READING YOUR COMMENT YOU WILL AGREE WITH ME.
I AGREE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE HURT MAY JUST HAVE A VICTIM MENTALITY. WE SHOULD JUST LOVE AND HELP THEM LIKE YOU SAID, BUT ALSO TELL THEM TO BE QUIET ABOUT IT AND JUST TELL IT TO "HIM", JUST LIKE YOU SAID. I KNOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE IT IT CONTRADICTORY, BUT YOU UNDERSTAND, BECAUSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE ELITE, LIKE ME.
THERE ARE OTHER HURTING PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE WORSE THAN US. LIKE MAMMA BUNNY USED TO SAY ON THOSE DARK WINTER NIGHTS WHEN THERE WERE NO GARDENS TO ROB OF CARROTS, 'THERE ARE STARVING BUNNIES IN MINNESOTA WHO ARE EVEN HUNGRIER THAN YOU, BECAUSE ALL THE ICE AND SNOW KILLED THE FARMER'S CROPS'. WE WERE WRONG TO COMPLAIN OF BEING ALMOST UNCONSCIOUS FROM HUNGER, BECAUSE THERE WERE BUNNIES HUNGRIER THAN US.
THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING SOME SENSE IN THIS CRAZY INTERWEB GAME.DON'T LISTEN TO THE NAYSAYERS. THEY HAVE LOST THEIR ELITE STATUS, AND ARE JUST BITTER.
lol, Easter Bunny, you are the master of satire! Thanks for the humor that has brought relief in a sad and dark (but necessary) discussion.
Hahaha! Never been happier to lose my "elite status", now! Grace is far better, and real relationship means more. Oops, do I sound like I just found something that I could never lay hands on, all my years in ATI, no matter how hard I worked for it? Pardon me for feeling free!
Beth, I believe the author of this article. Her testimony corroborates with many similar reports over the years. Perhaps you are not aware of the sex scandal which rocked IBLP back in the early 1980s, where Bill Gothard's brother had to be fired for flagrant immorality with multiple staff members, and Bill himself admitted to what he called (at the time) his "moral failures."
Subsequent to the scandal by some years, in Flint Michigan, a pastor Johnny Jones came to work at the Character Inn, but later resigned, the impetus for which was him seeing a 16 year old girl summoned to Gothard's hotel room by herself to serve him his dinner:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_billgothard.htm
"Pastor Jones and his family left after discovering that a sixteen-year-old girl was sent to prepare and bring a meal to Bill Gothard. This girl told Pastor Jones that Bill Gothard was her best friend and that Bill Gothard called her all the time to come to see him. Scandalized by this activity, Pastor Jones turned in his resignation, and his family departed from the Character Inn."
That last was from a book review of A Matter of Basic Principles.
I am glad for this forum which allows people to tell their stories, including giving enough of their identities so the key people know who they are. I hope you will see that what is described is WAY more than a "drop in the bucket," for the behaviors play on the vulnerabilities of young women who need to be protected, not exploited.
Beth.. Is it right to know that someone is doing an injustice to a helpless person, and NOT do something about it? We will answer to God for whether or not we tried to protect innocent people. Not one of us asked to become Gothard's victims. As for talking/approaching BG about it.. have you not heard that he refuses to discuss such things with anyone? We would love to take the Matt 18 approach, he will not accomodate it. Also, we do not 'slam' people for their personal opinions. We try to be kind and loving in our responses, as much as possible. There's no reason we can't have a civil discussion about any issue here.
You said, 'it is not dealing with it to put it on here.' Sometimes it is such a relief just to tell someone what happened, have a shoulder to cry on, so to speak. But the main purpose for putting our stories on here, is to warn people about him and his practices, and there has been so much good Godly advice, sympathy, and direction from the commenters, I have already been able to make peace with certain areas of my life, and get some of my bad theology straightened up. I literally visit this site daily, though I've never submitted a story. We are here to help the ones who suffered, in any way we can. Of course there may be some who are having a pity party, but shouldn't we pity them for the very real suffering they endured, that prompted said pity party? While gently helping them understand that pity parties will not help them in the long run? This is one of our goals. Of course we may not always answer wisely, we are human, and have our own daily struggles, etc... but I would like you to understand that this is our heart.
Beth, it sounds like you haven't read any other articles on the site. Everything you mentioned has been addressed. Why don't you read a few dozen stories, including some on how Gothard twists scriptures (and read the book "A Matter of Basic Principles" by Veinot, too). Maybe everyone will hold off on slamming you until you do so. Then pray about what you've read and written, and come back and give us an update. Thank you for reading.
Oh it was much easier for her to just "throw rocks" at the hundred or so commentors then actually do a little research to see if she's saying anything close to the truth. Hit and run slamming is less time consuming. Spewing venom in ALL CAPS is obviously the righteous choice here. :P
Maybe, Beth, instead of slamming, throwing rocks, etc., you should just pray for people here. I mean, after all "I have seen it all, I think you are skating on thin ice to blow things up just because your are disgruntled about something or another that was not meant in the way you took it. If you understand a person and put yourself in their shoes, you will not be so quick to accuse."
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One question I keep coming to is where were the authorities in all this? The director in OKC was obviously uncomfortable in leaving BG alone with Lizzie. Yet he did so. What about the adults at HQ? Surely someone must have noticed? Or the guys who were BG's right hand men? Tim O? Michael L?
And I believe Lizzie. I think she once caught me in Hinsdale in shorts in 1997. Heh. And i remember the jokes late at night on security about late night 'projects' that kept the lights on in BG's office. But aren't the directors just as culpable?
For that matter, how did my parents get sucked into all this? ;) Consider the "brainwashing" effects and workings of a cult, Rich. Gothard, the Prophet, the Anointed One, was considered to be above reproach. People get sucked in, then brainwashing, guilt, or misplaced loyalty makes them stay. Just my $0.02.
If you have been the victim of sexual misconduct, harassment or abuse, please contact me at [email protected] I'm interested in gathering affidavits... right now, you can e-mail me at the above address to find out who I am, what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, but the information is *not* public, and you will in no way be required to share your story unless you choose to do so, and believe it to be safe.
I know the e-mail address sounds cheesy, but it's really just to provide a single e-mail address to contact me through without me putting my personal e-mail address out there; and to protect those who are the victims.
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These types of things will continue to happen - until all come to the place of knowing that none of us need that man should teach us about any thing (spiritual or otherwise). Christ came to give us a direct line to God our Father: the Holy Spirit is quite capable of teaching each of us personally about everything from Adam to divorce to dying to self to living as Christ wants us to live. All these schools, colleges etc for Christians are not needed. There is only one shepherd and it is Christ our Lord. He is the only one who is over each of us. We are all equal under him (in the spirit there is neither male, nor female, nor bond, nor free, etc). Once we all learn this and quit setting other men (or women) on pedestals, the staging for this kind of sinful behaviour will be no more. It must also be realized that ministry is not about business, leaders etc. It is about function, not office.
I was also an ATI student in the late 90s and had friends at HQ although I never worked there myself. One acquaintence that I met through various ATI activities told me that she'd worked for some months at HQ "with computers." (She was a sweet girl, but not terribly bright.) When I asked if she was a technician or writer or what she did she kind of laughed and said "I don't know anything about computers!" I was just baffled at the inefficiency of it, but didn't know enough to suspect that the real reason might have been how well she fit the "looks profile" that's repeatedly described here. How pathetically sad, among other things, to exploit these women and waste their time--women who could have been doing real acts of service, real work, or real study.
Thank you for telling your story. While I have read almost all of it I have one question that maybe you have answered. What have your folks said to you about this situation - have they acknowledged it and are they on your side?
This story is awful. If it was true, it would be sad, but considering that it is completely fabricated, it is simply horrible. Yes, you read correctly. It was completely fabricated.
A little background....My family is part of ATI, and we've attended several conferences over the past seven years. Although I know Mr. Gothard is not perfect, and I wouldn't agree with nearly everything he says..still, the basic teachings from God's Word that he has shared have been a blessing to me and I have benefited greatly from the IBLP ministry. Although we don't personally know Mr. Gothard very well, we are close friends of the president of ATI and know various people who work with him regularly. A friend of ours emailed us back in April with the link to this article. She was greatly disturbed by it and, knowing that we were part of ATI, wanted to let us know. I was extremely frustrated after reading the article. It was simply...just weird. It didn't add up at all. So, instead of believing everything I read...I went on a search for the real story. We called our friend, Chris Hogan, president of ATI, and a close friend of ours and told him about it. Several people at IBLP read the article and researched records until they were able to figure out who this "Lizzie" was. Upon finding her contact information and calling and cross-questioning her....she finally admitted that the entire story was COMPLETELY FABRICATED and that she and her mom wrote it..basically out of spite. I'm not surprised that so many people completely believed it, as there seems to be this "grace" generation that is so bitter at how they were raised that instead of putting that blame rightly to their parents...they dump it on Mr. Gothard, who supposedly "ruled" their parents, and they willing believe anything bad they can find about Mr. Gothard. Sadly, there was a generation of people who thought that joining ATI would change all their problems. And I'll just say-if you view ATI as being something that will make life perfect for you, than you are headed for disaster. It is merely a help. It is not THE WAY. Jesus Christ is tTHE WAY. and if people get that mixed around, they will have problems.
As far as all the comments agreeing to the story, I just want to say this: if one girl is bitter and angry enough to completely fabricate such a horrific charge of mistreatment, than wouldn't dozens of others who are also bitter and angry at ATI & Mr. Gothard & how they were raised...be equally willing to join false stories to hers? You all can think whatever you want to about her story, but it doesn't change the truth. And I think its sad that in the name of "GRACE" so many people can be so angry.
Honest question, friend: once you discovered who "Lizzie" was, did *you* follow Matthew 18 and speak to her directly or did you believe second-hand stories told to you by people who have something to protect? Has Lizzie recanted her story publicly or are you here repeating hearsay?
Look at the disincentive for victims coming forward: they will be hunted down, called and cross-questioned, and people like yourself who are truly well-meaning and sincere people will without question accept that the victim is a bitter liar.
Chelsea, I appreciate your perspective and experiences as valid. However you must concede that those of us who have known Mr. Gothard personally, worked beside him, and had involvement with IBLP in varying capacities for 20+ years have a right to voice our own *valid* perspectives and experiences. Many of us who have long histories within the ministry were involved for quite a few years before waking up to what was truly happening. It is BECAUSE we know how long it can take to see the dangers lurking beneath that we choose to speak out, for the BENEFIT of those like yourself. You certainly need to form your own opinions based on personal experience. Just realize that those of us on the far side of the experiences wish we'd had this sort of website available to us while we were forming our early opinions. Consider yourself blessed, not attacked.
Chelsy,
I like you questioned the story. My method of research was to ask a number of my friends that had worked at HQ if they had any experiences. I found 6 people in 2 days with similar stories just by sending a few e-mails. I suggest you do some more research. Do you know anyone that worked with him? Many of us on here know plenty.
And Chelsy dear, do you really think that the personal friend of Bill Gothard, president of the company etc.. would confirm Lizzie's story? When he would lose EVERYTHING if he did? Think about it for a moment dear, and consider that no matter what kind of Christian principles an organization adheres to, there is ALWAYS corruption at some level or other, ALWAYS. Because it is run by fallible, sinful humans. Please take that into consideration, and be sure to check your facts more thoroughly next time. As Lizzie said, if someone wanted to lie about Gothard, they'd have accused him of MUCH worse things than were mentioned in the article, in order to make their story more believable/poignant/infuriating etc.. Also, please continue reading the other articles and comments on this site, MULTIPLE eye witnesses have confirmed Gothard's behavior of this nature, and there are other personal testimonies of the same kind of thing.
Chelsea said "Sadly, there was a generation of people who thought that joining ATI would change all their problems."
Those people who thought ATI would change all their problems probably thought that because that is what Gothard said, that by following every jot and tittle of all the teachings that they were promised that God would bless them and their kids would be a great army, etc etc.
If you have read the stories on this site you would see many say that the results did not live up to the promises. So, yes those families bought into the sales pitch and when life happened and things did not work out as stated in the seminars, red book, character sketches, home schooling then that is when people began to question BG.
You are right, Jesus is the only way, but so much extra has been added, (not only by Bg but by many other so-called christian leaders) "yes Jesus is the only way but do not forget to jump thorough all these other little hoops, etc."
I am sure there are success stories from ATI. But where are the websites popping up that show those stories? Why have there been websites telling about the failures, heartbreaks, even having to run away to be free, those becoming atheist in the light of having been raised in BG, quiverfull and patriarchy, all of which are closely linked in their theology?
One more thing Chelsy... Your last sentence said, 'And I think it's sad that in the name of "GRACE" so many people can be so angry.'
You believe that this story is a complete fabrication and lie, and if I'm not greatly mistaken, you are ANGRY at the thought that someone is lying and smearing someone's name.
Can you understand our 'anger' a little better now? We were lied to, extensively, by a 'man of God'. Gothard teaches that if we lived according to his dictates and principles, we would earn God's favor. That very concept is a lie.
The young ladies on this site were taken advantage of, discriminated against, and treated inappropriately. Is this not cause for righteous anger on their part? Christians should be angered when innocent people are treated unjustly, which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now, as you believe that Gothard is innocent of these charges, you are reacting in 'righteous' anger. In light of all these things, do you still judge us? Jesus was extremely angry multiple times in Scripture, yet you find that He never sinned, and is the epitome of Grace.
You also as good as called EVERY commenter on Recovering Grace a liar because we believed Lizzie's story, in spite of the fact that multiple people are coming forward with eye-witness testimonies, and other first hand accounts. Can you really justify calling hundreds of people a liar, because ONE person may have lied? You do not know Mr. Gothard well. Yet you believe him rather than dozens who have known him VERY well, for years? Scripture says 'in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let everything be established.' We've had dozens of witnesses so far, is that enough evidence for you? Vs. the few people who are on Gothard's strings?
Is it really so difficult to believe that Bill Gothard may have fallen into some sin or other during his long life? He is human, yes? He is NOT God incarnate, yes? WHY is it so difficult to believe that the man may have strayed here or there?
Oh, he taught something that helped you? So has EVERY single preacher or ministry leader that has fallen into sin.
It honestly seems to me that many of those still loyal to Gothard subconsciously view him as 'the way', even though they preach Jesus. Why else would people support and rally around another sinful human being so forcefully?
If anyone ever wrongs you in your life, Chelsy, and you find yourself angry, upset, or somewhat hurt about it, I hope you remember us. I hope you remember the judgement with which you judged us.
Remember the Scripture, 'He who closes his ear to the cry of the poor, he shall cry himself, and shall not be heard.' Prov. 21:13
Hello, Chelsy! I appreciate your dedication to accuracy. You seem, however, to have me confused with someone else. I have not been contacted or questioned by Chris Hogan or any other members of the Headquarters staff. I did receive a letter from Bill Gothard via the Recovering Grace team shortly after this article was published, and I sent a very brief reply in care of the RG team inviting Gothard to correspond with me through that medium. He has not chosen to reply.
You may be mixing me up with a young lady and her mother who commented extensively on this article and the companion follow-up article. I do not know who they are, and I don't think their story was published on this site in any official capacity. They posted in the comments, just as you have.
When I submitted my original article to Recovering Grace, I submitted not only my real name, but the names of all the other people referenced in my article. My story was checked, and was verified by those witnesses contacted. I had no contact with the people described in my article between the year after I left Headquarters and the time I submitted the piece.
If commenters on these articles were making up stories, I suspect they would have come up with something more spectacular.
Lizzie, I am totally impressed by your kind response. It breaks my heart that first, you would have been mistreated at HQ, and second, to see people accusing you of being bitter and spiteful. However, I suspect, too, that Chelsy is confused between you and the comments that were removed. Having said that, I suspect that Chelsy is just as mistaken about the people who wrote those comments as she was about Lizzie.
Chelsy - I am not completely sure how to say this in the spirit of "truth in love"... I am sure you are a very sincere and well-meaning person, just as we all were when we were in the program. You came into this public forum and used the words "horrible", "COMPLETELY FABRICATED", "spite", "bitter", "angry, "horrific charge". However, the person you were speaking to was in fact an honest victim and it was you who were falsely accusing. Bill Gothard would rebuke you for hearing an evil report and taking up an offense if the shoe were on the other foot. As a brother in Christ to a sister in Christ, I urge you to search your heart and see if you are truly following the golden rule with regard to those who have been victimized at HQ, if you are walking in love towards them.
Mathew, I am very thankful for your wisdom and ability to articulate truth in love. Truth is without ignorance or concealment. You are a truth seeker because you know THE Truth -- Jesus!!
We were in Moscow with our family in 1992. All 7 families were told to leave because we stood up to an ungodly, unhealthy system. Rather the youth knew it then, we pursued protection for the approx 300 youth on the ship. Parents were kept intentionally uninformed and we were openly told that we, as families, were to glorify Bill and he as the head would alone be the one to give praise to God. Our reaction was outrage!!!
Please know young people that much intercession has gone forth for you and your families since the day we boarded the plane 20 years ago this week (It was my 39th birthday and I wept).
I pray healing for each one involved. Allow Jesus your Healer and Restorer to use this to deepen your understanding and revelation of Himself and thrust you into a greater dimention of His destiny for you and your family.
In love with the One who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life
Laurie ([email protected])
Wow, thanks! You never know what might be happening behind the scenes as people you don't even know are praying for you... wow!
If we were speaking face to face, I would definitely push back with a few repeated questions along the line of "are you sure he said that?" I would be aghast today if I heard someone say that. At the time, I'm not sure it would have even registered as a problem. We were being shaped to submit entirely without question or thought.
We were openly told that we, as families, were to glorify Bill and he as the head would alone be the one to give praise to God. Even knowing what I know, that is stunning. I respect that the group of families had the wisdom and the courage to speak the truth even when it meant being mistreated for it. I can only hope, but I'm not sure I would have had either one.
Peter and John were persecuted *by the religious leaders* for being witnesses to the truth. But they replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
Ummm, Chelsea, you said "I'll just say-if you view ATI as being something that will make life perfect for you, than you are headed for disaster. It is merely a help. It is not THE WAY. Jesus Christ is THE WAY. and if people get that mixed around, they will have problems."
Chelsea, with all respect, anyone at all who takes seriously what BG says and teaches in IBLP and ATIA is guaranteed to have problems of one sort or another.
Why?
Because Gothard himself claims that what he teaches are the universal, non-optional principles of God's Word. He teaches that he is giving the world a "New Approach To Life," and says that following his teachings will bring 'success' to everyone who does so.
Gothard does not claim that his teachings are anecdotal illustrations, opinions, and formulas for success... he says that what he says is straight from God Himself.
THAT is a problem.
A simple examination of the idea of Bible Interpretation (or even analytical thinking of any sort) will quickly show that at least 95% of the Bible passages Gothard uses to back up his teachings have nothing to do with what he is using them for. He actually shows a great disregard for the Scriptures that he claims to explain.
The problem is not the gullible Christians who wanted something better for their families - it is inimical to Gothard himself and his teachings.
(a former Ati-er)
I am just now reading this, Lizzie, and realized while I was reading just how accurate your statements have to be. I didn't fall into the "favorite" crowd, but certainly had moments with Mr. Gothard that were, um ..... weird. I always shrugged my reactions off with the fact that he was just SOOOO Godly and couldn't possibly have meant to be like *that*. He did praise me for different aspects of my appearance, which I found to be odd. Since then, I have been horrified at the various things that have happened with some of my friends who were in the program after my dad decided to pull me out of it and send me to college (something Mr. Gothard told me was "disappointing"). One of those times he sent a friend of mine home so she could "care for her appearance". This friend has always struggled with weight, and I couldn't believe he would go so far as to make her feel bad about it! That about did me in.
Anyway, thank you for having the courage to post. It is helpful to read from others and reconnect with old friends who truly understand...
I found this site some time ago thru another one an dwhile I am in no way related to ATI or the Bill Gothard movement, I am a survivor of Sexual molestation at th ehands of a child predator. As an adult who has recovered not thru therapy but on my own thru inner exploration and a good understanding of psychology I am extremely alarmed at the whole ATI/IBLP teachings. They are very much a training ground for manipulation into molestation, which by reading these articles he is a serial molester. Perhaps in the 80's he was an abuser but has reformed his ways to avoid possible jail time.
Everything that is taught is to subtly make the victim question their own reactions! A predator picks their victims carefully but to have a total indoctrination program scares me to speechlessness! The man has his choice of victms just waiting he just has to lay some groundwork with the parents and a few incidents to see if he can get his thrills without having them speak up! His while program shows his self loathing at his behavior- the laying on guilt for natural desires, the patriarchal stance that only your father (figure) knows that is best,the absolute requirement for obedience when the authority figured demand it!
Reading the stories of these young women brings me back to my preteen self trying to understand why this man was doing things that made me feel uncomfortable and when I tried to avoid him his lies to my parents brought them down upon me because he was so slick-much slicker in fact that Bill Gothard, because my parents were not religious fools but sexual predators spend years polishing their skills, I highly doubt that these incidents were the only ones-and while at tiems my mother thought something was off she never directly questioned me and because I felt that parents could read your mind that they were OK with what he did. It was only when years later my mother discovered where he was ,I was able to face my last demon and found that he had been caught and was going to go on trial for child molestation, I was willing to confront him in court as a witness to his perversion. However he died before this came to be, in a fall that in my heart I know was not the accident it was reported to be, but most likely a defensive reaction by another potential victim. He had been caught numerous times before with adult women but his favorite thing was young girls. I know it is very hard for any victim of molestation to come forward especially as their perpertrator is "well respected & has his own share of fame"(as mine was)but even harder when people continue to defend the person as "not of that type". There is no "type" for sexual predators, they tend to be people who enjoy power but have mental issues which make them feel inept in some area.
I commend the young women and men who have come forward and faced this because now they can begin the healing process as I did many years ago. It is NEVER the victims fault, and those who say that the Administrators at the Institute are blameless do not understand the manipulation and deviousness of the entire syatem!
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Lizzy,
Your comment "Gothard assigned me to rewrite a footnote about divorce for an upcoming edition of the Zodhiates study Bible ..." stands out to me.
Gothard's draconian views on divorce and especially remarriage are widely known (and please folks let's NOT start a sub-thread on this subject). I just find it so interesting that Bill G. can hide behind his "pious fatherly front" when it comes to his own lusts while also castigating remarried people who have been devastated by divorce and only want to remarry to have legitimate place to monogamously express their natural sexuality. Gothard's (and Zodaiates') disdain of the divorced/remarried is especially cruel when directed at those who are young and whose failed marriages produced no children.
Clearly good ole "celibate for the Kingdom Bill" can "feel" his biology yet uses his phony guise of "authority" to coverup what is clear lust for the nubile bodies he never knew. What a hypocrite!
What a well expressed comment. Thank you.
Okay, I'm no psychologist but I have been thinking more about this. From what I know about Gothard's teachings on human sexuality, I think that he's not only repressed but also sexually regressed. He never completely matured In the psychological aspect of sex, nevermind actually experiencing it with a real woman. Deep inside he's still a fumbling adolescent boy who is shy, embarrassed, and deeply insecure about how girls might perceive him sexually.
Honestly, I doubt that Bill G was/is actually having sex with any of those girls or even with himself. Instead, it's a psychosexual game for him. By having beautiful young girls under his control, who are taught to give him veneration and attention, Bill G is able to assert his male dominance, not only over them but also over the men in his sad "ministry"
Chagrined, I am very much inclined to agree with you. I do not think he has had sex with anyone either, I'm sure it would have come out by now if he had. I still think he's a creeper, of course. What you say makes so much sense. I had similar thoughts regarding Bill's rules for courtship, and I wondered if he made courtship so achingly unbearable, and near impossible to get to know someone properly, because he hadn't been able to get the girl(s) he wanted as a youth, and this was his 'revenge' as it were; coupled with the 'type' girls that he dominates over at the ministry. I mean, consider. His voice is soft, and ever so slightly on the feminine side. That could be an indication of regression. Interesting thoughts.
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I just discovered this website.
I 'ave one word for you. Ew.
I was in ATI from the time I was 4 years old until I was 17 or so. I didn't even know anything else. The only interaction I was privileged to have with our Mr. Gothard was at at Counseling Seminar one year. This would have been in 2002 I believe, I would have been about 16 at the time. Thankfully I wasn't one of the picture perfect pretty ones (though I know just who those were). I was a bit too slender, hair a bit less curly, a bit less tailored...But I remember waiting in the massive line to see the man of the hour.
There he was up there, greeting every worshiping female. When it was at last our turn Mrs. Lisa (my friends' mom who'd accompanied us) did most of the talking. My sister, friends, and I gawked. It does seem that I managed to gawk more appealingly considering the interaction that followed. Here was the god of our entire liturgy, our leader, our hope. I felt this incredible pent up spiritual force emanating from him that I latched onto; it was like the apex of a long pilgrimage of high a magnificent proportions. The man feeds off of this, manipulates it, wields it. (He is a human after all, he does have a gift for communication. And he certainly can't know how deceived he is - the very nature of self-deception precludes that possibility. But he certainly takes undue advantage of that gift.)
We locked eyes. (That does rather make me cringe now.)
There was that energy. I felt like I'd been touched by Christ Himself. I didn't know enough to question that at the time. I thought it was all good. I was so pleased that he had noticed me. I was proud of him noticing me. No I may not have fit his "perfect image" bill, but I have a pair of eyes.
"You have such a beautiful countenance," I heard him telling me. "Your eyes just shine. I can tell you have a beautiful spirit."
If you'd have poked me with a pin, I'd have popped. I'd not only been noticed, I'd been praised. My hand had been gripped, a connection had been formed, there was a bond he was masterfully creating right there, in that small exchange.
I walked away with my small group and was immediately teased by my friend Christine "What beautiful eyes you have Katie, what a beautiful spirit you have." We laughed and carried one but I never forgot it. Nor did I forget his hand pressed against the small of my back as we posed for the quick picture Mrs Lisa snapped.
It would be 5 years before I would come to doubt Mr Gothard. I remained overly generous for years, blaming the issues I had with ATI on other factors - surely there was no imperfect intentions in the beloved Bill.
______________
I will add this. In what must have been 2003 or 2004, I attended a VOICE conference at the Flint training center. Gothard came the last week I was there. Gratefully, I somehow was spared any real interaction with him (that I remember). One of the girls whose family worked at HQ was needing a ride back. She considered Gothard a family friend but the Board would not allow her to ride them and the group with him from Flint to Chicago. (He was with a group of men and some of their wives - she would have been the only girl.) So at some point there was definitely a crack down on young single girls being anywhere near him.
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Did she ever file a police report? If not, a court of law would never listen to her. Just sayin.
Your compassion John is commendable. :-)
I can only assume that you, Mr. Doe, have never grown up in an ATIA family, and have never spent years of your life in an ATIA Training Center.
If you had been, you would realize the pointlessness of your comment.
The student was always wrong. 'The Authority' was always right, no matter what. ESPECIALLY when speaking of Bill Gothard himself. BG in HQ or any of his TC's was/is literally the equivalent of the Pope in the Vatican for the students volunteering/working for him.
This also speaks of your ignorance of how abuse works, especially in religious environments, especially when minors are abused.
I truly wish that you could sit down and have a heart-to-heart w/a few of the girls who have spoken up about BG's inappropriate and abusive behaviour towards them as minors in his care.
If you could still question them and their lack of 'proper response,' as you spoke with them face-to-face and heard how they were misused and horribly disillusioned as the man who had set the highest standards of 'holiness' for all of his followers went against his own teaching...
then I can only say that I will be praying that god has mercy on you.
I'd like to follow up with Will's comment John. If you have any passion for knowing the truth at all, please take this into consideration.
The disciples would never have risked their lives and endured torturous deaths if they KNEW that Christ wasn't risen, God incarnate etc. No-one willingly suffers for what they know is a lie.
On a milder scale, these girls have much to lose by coming out with these stories. Legions of Gothard followers will demonize these girls til kingdom come, often times, the girls own families will give them considerable grief over it. Why come out with these stories unless they ARE true, and are disturbing enough to warrant a warning to other potential victims?
Also know and understand that EVERY.SINGLE.STORY regarding this subject that is listed on RG has been validated and confirmed by dozens of eye-witnesses, which is far more than even Scripture requires. RG doesn't post a story like this without asking for pertinent names, and doing a little sleuthing on their own, just to make sure the story is true. (I'm not an administrator, but I've read this elsewhere on RG).
Anyway, one last question. Why do Gothard's followers all behave as if the man isn't capable of doing wrong? He's a mere human being, isn't he? The Lord's anointed or not, everyone is capable of falling into sin, why do people assume that BG hasn't, or wouldn't commit such a sin? I'm genuinely curious about that. What, a public religious leader falling into disgrace? That's NEVER happened before.. smh
So a police report was never filed? Hmmmm. That hurts any storiescredibility..
Actually, I spent years and years in ATI, and years at a TC. I also confronted leadership and Mr. Gothard on numerous occasions. I do criticize him for keeping various leaders around.
You cannot blame a parent or leader fr a misapplication of a leader's teaching. I see that in many stories here...
Btw, I followed most of the principles, not because Mr. G. Said they were right, but bc I checked them out against the Bible. I am happily married, am financially free, and am experiencing God's blessing in my life...
You all are redefining grace and legalism to justify yourselves.
John Doe,
Not filing a police report does not necessarily hurt the credibility of a story. I know people that I've interacted with, some of whom are friends, have said the same thing about BG and his acting inappropriately with young ladies. Even my sibling (who is more pro-ATI) has not denied it did happen.
I am glad to see you may not have totally been a "yes" man to BG. But too, obviously, by your pseudonym, you were targeted for BG's special attention he reserved for young ladies.
However, in your statement "You cannot blame a parent or leader fr a misapplication of a leader's teaching. I see that in many stories here...
," then who is responsible? Yes, the leader is responsible to correct incorrect views of his teachings, particularly if he is being widely misunderstood. Parents are responsible for their actions as well. Furthermore, it was not "misapplication" of a leader's teaching that's the problem, the problem IS the leader's teaching.
Also, you disqualified yourself from being able to tell us that we're wrong because you say "I had a good experience." By that statement, you admit that you are unable to understand the position of those who were hurt by ATI.
"You all are redefining grace and legalism to justify yourselves."
And how, John, are we doing that? Explain. Because right now, that's sounding an awful lot like a strawman argument-the "I can't make a case, so I'll just distort my opponents' position."
Erm..excuse me. Rephrase "But too, obviously, by your pseudonym, you were targeted for BG's special attention he reserved for young ladies." I should say "You were *not* targeted for such attention." :)
John Doe have you heard of the "straw man fallacy"?
You are misrepresening the positions put forth in this article and many articles throughout this website.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Food for thought.
Please give a clear and truthful example as to what behavior or activity that we are trying to 'justify' ourselves for.
John, the original article does not say anything specifically ILLEGAL happened. Therefore, of course no police report would have been filed. What happened was Sexual Harassment. In such cases, it is common to NOT have witnesses due to the very nature of the behavior. I was one of the girls harassed by BG as well. I also do not have witnesses because we were alone when he touched me. BUT, the fact that besides myself and Lizzy, there are quite a few other girls that have come forward complaining of the same behavior. This says that there are many VICTIMS. If you have a daughter, will you allow her to work for a ministry? What if the person in charge decides to touch her in ways that make her feel uncomfortable? Will you demand she file a police report before you believe her? Will you demand that she produce witnesses?
This has been well answered but it intrigues me that this seems to be an instinctive response for some (not just for John Doe here): "Where is the police report or other evidence that would stand in court?"
IBLP is a ministry that wears a mask of purity and "higher standards." Raise that standard higher, they like to say. But when far more than "two or three witnesses" attest to being mistreated, Bill's defenders rush to the lowest possible standard. Why is that? If Bill were "above reproach", why demand a police report? Is this perhaps a tacit admission that you know these stories are true but you have chosen not to care?
Is it not hypocritical to hold everyone else to "high standards" such as don't eat ham and don't listen to rock music but then to reject any sexual standard for Gothard other than "Where's the police report?"
Honest question: Does Gothard live in a world where standards apply to everyone else but not to him?
"So a police report was never filed? Hmmmm. That hurts any storiescredibility.."
Yes, because every crime is reported and every reported crime must be true and accurate.
"Actually, I spent years and years in ATI, and years at a TC. I also confronted leadership and Mr. Gothard on numerous occasions. I do criticize him for keeping various leaders around."
As you seem to be somewhat male, you were not targeted for the same purposes as others. Your lack of experience of more fawning attention and inappropriate behavior does not negate the experiences of others.
"You cannot blame a parent or leader fr a misapplication of a leader's teaching. I see that in many stories here..."
Why should anyone not blame a parent or leader for misapplying with abusive results any leader's teaching, even if the original teaching was right?
"Btw, I followed most of the principles, not because Mr. G. Said they were right, but bc I checked them out against the Bible. I am happily married, am financially free, and am experiencing God's blessing in my life..."
Good for you. I'm glad your life is currently so delightful. Many peope living outside of your principles also do well and live a life similar to yours. Many others who mirror your life are struggling. Its called life. Stuff happens. We reach mountaintops and traverse valleys. Should you struggle at some point in life, it could be just as much circumstantial as it is your accidentally scuffing the lines of one of your principles.
"You all are redefining grace and legalism to justify yourselves."
Please share with us your right and proper and true and only applicable definitions that you justify yourself with. You may wish to strongly consider the threee fingers currently pointed back at yourself.
"Btw, I followed most of the principles, not because Mr. G. Said they were right, but bc I checked them out against the Bible. I am happily married, am financially free, and am experiencing God's blessing in my life..."
1) You are hiding behind a pseudonym, and thus can give any testimony you'd like, since there is not "two or three witnesses" to verify the fruit in your life.
2) It is/was very common in ATI circles to focus on having a certain public image, but when the veneer was ripped off, there turned out to be a different story.
Let down your mask and then make this claim. Or show me the police report. If there is no police report, then your claim has no credibility.
Whole point is, the courts and legal system would not listen to these stories.
You keep saying that, how do you KNOW that this is true? Can you give examples?
John Doe, whole point is that your comments are getting old.
I sincerely hope that no woman in your family ever goes through sexual abuse/harassment. Because by your very words, you would not listen to them. *SMH*
Our current system actually would view this stuff as sexual harrassment in the workplace, and it would be prosecutable. Why do you think employers now mandate sexual harassment training upon initial hire? Have you ever sat through one of these training sessions? We do now have laws that protect women from unwanted advances.
So...because you don't think a court would listen, it means they didn't happen?
And, due to the fact that a court would not listen, Gothard is innocent?
Strange logic, my friend.
Never mind the fact that these wrongs were committed in the name of God. I suppose you'd say that God didn't see them either. Or perhaps He wouldn't listen.
Gothard's organization is a CULT. His authority teaching alone makes it that. It has always been amusing to me that the authority teaching is it's own protection -- you cannot question the authority teaching without immediately violating it. Thus, the reason he has been able to get away with his sexual grooming of young ladies, and probably more, is that in a cult environment, the authority teachings protect the cult leader. Since you cannot speak against, "the man of God," he is protected. It is always like this in a cult. Realize Gothard is a cult leader and it explains so very much.
I blame Bill Gothard for the damage he has done to lives. But I also blame the mindless fools who have embraced and spread his destructive teachings to others. Just try to reason with a dedicated Gothardite. You might as well talk to a robot.
Wow. "Mindless fools." I mean, wow.
What about those who were sincerely misled? Who were earnestly looking for the best way to live a godly life, and who were led astray by false teachers? Jesus never beat up on the poor sheep who got lost. He didn't call them names or punish them for being stupid. He went out and found them and nursed them back to health. It was the false teachers He beat up on, called names, and basically had no pity on --- though I think, if they had listened and turned away from their false teachings, He'd have forgiven them and nursed them back to health, too.
I guess I'm just saying that even the "dedicated Gothardites" need love and compassion --- how else will the gospel ever get to them?
WendyA:
^^^What about those who were sincerely misled? Who were earnestly looking for the best way to live a godly life, and who were led astray by false teachers? Jesus never beat up on the poor sheep who got lost. He didn't call them names or punish them for being stupid. He went out and found them and nursed them back to health. It was the false teachers He beat up on, called names, and basically had no pity on --- though I think, if they had listened and turned away from their false teachings, He'd have forgiven them and nursed them back to health, too.
I guess I'm just saying that even the "dedicated Gothardites" need love and compassion --- how else will the gospel ever get to them?^^^
Yes! This is a good reminder. :)
I agree with Wendy here. There is broad range of reasons why one might spread the teachings that doesn't mean they are a "mindless fool".
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To Lizzie, Chagrined, or Anyone Else with Knowledge,
Recently, I read a critique of Gothard and IBLP in a publication my family subscribes to. As one who has been exposed to the Basic, Advanced, and Anger Resolution Seminars (though without the personal on-site experiences of you all), I found the allegations in it troubling enough that I am doing my own further research in a quest for the truth, which has now led me to your site.
I will just say that I am finding the articles here disturbing but helpful in re-thinking these matters in an effort to draw my own conclusions. I will also add that, as a sexual abuse survivor myself, my heart goes out to all who have experienced its pain and devastation. I know from personal experience how difficult the journey can be. I should clarify that my particular abusive situation had nothing at all to do with IBLP or its teachings.
I wish to respect Chagrined's desire not to create a "rabbit trail" focused on divorce, but I do have a Zodhiates' Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible and Lizzie's reference to being asked to rewrite a footnote prompts a question. Can she or anyone tell me what BG's position on that issue is. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd like to know and would be grateful if someone could help me. Thank you.
God bless you all.
Lamar
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I scanned these stories -- I'm sorry ladies that you were treated in these ways. Gothard and his enablers are the ones who are culpable.
I do think it would be helpful to teach the younger ladies how to see indicators of inappropriate behavior and teach them to say "that makes me uncomfortable (e.g., touching my back as you help me into the car) and I don't want you to do that again." That's part of maturity and difficult when one is young (but not impossible) and certainly difficult when there's a power differential. It's also nice to have someone in your life to go to for advice about situations that make one uncomfortable (or that are outright molestations).
Thanks for passing on your stories. It's part of the 'prevention' process so that fewer are victimized in the future.
Such a good point, @Thomas. I think unfortunately many ATI/IBLP devotees were so convinced that their umbrella of protection would keep their daughters from ever facing such a situation that they gave them no tools, understanding, or confidence with which to address unwanted advances.
It is interesting to me that Gothard taught 'crying out' in an violent attack, but nothing for 'lesser' harassment or inappropriate behavior of which I am aware. So unless it was an offense the girl/woman was willing to scream over, she had no other tools. Perhaps those closer to the teaching than I was can comment on this.
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I am sorry that this happens to you. I think the matter should be investigated thoroughly.
you've mentioned that a director was there too waiting for Gothard to go outside with him.
If these were the case than I think the man already know about Gothard antics and this matters are supposed to be taken cared of much sooner than this.
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This recounting of personal boundaries violations is consistent with my instincts 35 years ago. My foolish mother bought into it but ultimately only provided a rationale for remaining in an unhappy marriage. One of my sisters sees the Bible as propositionally revealed and raises her own children with cult-like insistence. And also acknowledged taking prescription anti-anxiety medication. So much for the fundamentalist, Bible-as-cookbook-and-recipe-all-life's-situations mentality. I hope this young lady is OK now. And my wish is for her to try the Ancient Faith of the Church undivided. Much wisdom there and a great salvific path. ...Best to all caught up in to the Gothard nonsense.
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