Warning: The story you are about to read contains details that may be considered explicit and disturbing by those with sensitivities.
Editor's note: The Recovering Grace team understands the seriousness of the allegations made in this story containing descriptions of conduct of a sexual nature between a minor and an authority figure. This story, more so than others, has caused the RG team to examine our hearts, to ensure that our motives are pure as we humbly seek to balance justice with grace and mercy. We have sought counsel from trusted advisors, and have spent many hours in prayerful consideration before publishing this story. While there will always be an element of “He-said/She-said” in stories of this nature, we have spent over eight months investigating this story. We have interviewed witnesses, some of whom have agreed to go on the record. Combining this investigation with what we have previously researched, we believe this to be credible. Note that some will understandably ask why this is not the subject of legal action. It’s understood that any statute of limitations has expired in this case.
“Speak out on behalf of the voiceless, and for the rights of all who are vulnerable.” --Proverbs 31:8
"
I hope that my story gives courage to others. We who were preyed upon have found our voice. It's time to speak our truth."
— “Charlotte”
“Charlotte” at IBLP Headquarters
It is hard for me to bare my soul. I was raised to put my best face forward and act like all is well. I am a preacher’s daughter, the youngest of seven children. In the world I grew up in, the pastor and his family always had to be perfect.
I have been told I am alive because of Bill Gothard. My parents became involved in the seminars in the early 1970s, and at that time they were done with having kids. My parents told Gothard that, because of him, they were convicted to have more children. I was born in 1975, and from the get go I was told that I was special—the seventh child, God’s perfect number—and that I owed my life to Bill Gothard. My parents told Bill that they, like Hannah, were giving me back to God.
My parents hosted Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (IBYC) seminars in California, and were deeply involved in the IBYC (later renamed the Institute in Basic Life Principles, or IBLP) way of life. We moved to New Jersey when I was five years old. I was put into Christian school there until the second half of first grade, when my Mom pulled me out to homeschool me. I cried to go back to school. The Advanced Training Institute (ATI, Gothard’s homeschooling program) was just starting, so my parents were among the first hundred or so families to be enrolled in this new program when I started second grade. My three brothers who were closest to me in age were attending college back in Indiana at the time, but my parents pulled them out of college when we joined ATI. One of my brothers went straight to the IBLP Headquarters in Oak Brook, Illinois, to help with landscaping.
My father was so deep into Gothard’s teachings, and he preached them so much, that his church board had issues with it. He was forced out of a church in Minnesota. He blamed this on the board not being willing to grow. I have my own theory of why he was forced out, though.
My father was a sexual predator. He had been forced out of churches in California and New Jersey for taking indecent liberties with young girls. My mother turned a blind eye to it all. My father’s sexual abuse of me didn’t start until we moved to a pastorate in New Jersey, when I was seven years old and got my own room.
We left that church when I was 13 years old, and we moved to Virginia when I was 15. I went kicking and screaming! The move took me from my friends and my job. I hated my parents’ rules: Don’t cut your hair. No makeup. No music that wasn’t approved. And the purity rings! I thought that was a joke. I hadn’t felt “pure” since my father took my virginity when I was eight years old.
We went to a conference in Knoxville in July of 1992. That’s where I first met Bill Gothard. I remember he wouldn’t let go of my hand, and he kept telling my parents how sweet, beautiful, and pure I was. I was in awe as I listened to the man whom I had been told was responsible for me being alive tell my parents that he wanted me to come to Headquarters. Me? The youngest of seven children, a preacher’s daughter? What did I have to offer him, this man whom my mother almost worshiped and my father would preach about in his sermons? That was during the first week of July. By mid-August I was at IBLP Headquarters by his request. I was put on payroll right away. I was 16 years old.
Bill wanted me working in his personal office. My brother was working at Headquarters as the head landscaper. I fussed so much about wanting to be outside that I became one of the first girls to work on the landscape crew. Bill didn’t like me working outdoors. He pushed me to take a job near him, inside, but I wouldn’t.
My parents had told Bill about my attitude, about the boy I was seeing, and about how immoral we were for simply kissing. My parents portrayed me to Bill as a sexual, rebellious teen who needed help—but I had only kissed a boy. That was all. Bill told them he would give me intensive counseling.
Bill would call me into his office for “counseling and teaching.” I was open about my relationship with my boyfriend. As we talked, Bill would play footsie with me. I loved to be barefooted, and he would always comment on the shades of polish on my toes. I’d talk, and he would rub my feet with his.
He wanted all the details of my past sexual experiences. He asked me a lot about how much I had let my boyfriend touch me, how we kissed— it went on and on. He seemed to get pleasure from pulling every detail out of me. We would then kneel at the couch and pray. I remember how my knees would hurt after a while. He made me confess, often holding my hand. He liked to make me cry over it. Bill told me that God had a better plan for me.
He knew what my father had done to me, but he called me into repentance for my own sins without confronting my father or addressing his sin. I was a temptation to men; Bill Gothard told me that I had tempted my own father.
I craved Bill’s attention but felt guilty about the increasing touches he gave me. I wanted a relationship with a man that was like a relationship with a father. Bill Gothard gave me that feeling of being worth something.
He wanted me around him as much as possible, wanted me to be with him as much as he could get me. I started meeting with him in his office in the morning, every morning. He would pick me up in his blue classic car by 5:30 a.m. for prayer and Bible study. There were others there, but they would leave, and he’d keep me with him to “talk.” It started out with him telling me how beautiful I was, how I inspired him, and how I made him feel alive. It went to hand-holding, then long hugs. He would touch me and hug me after devotions and then take me to the eight o’clock staff meeting session. His assistant would drive us to the staff meeting.
“Charlotte” on the 1992 IBLP trip to Australia
I began to have discord with my housemates, and I asked Bill to move me to a different house. He said the woman in charge of housing wouldn’t “let” him. It all came to a head one night when I told one of my housemates about the long hugs Bill gave me. She got very upset and told me that I was lying, that Bill would never touch a woman. She was so upset that she reported it to one of the staff leaders.
Next thing I knew, I was called into a disciplinary meeting with a couple of senior staff members and Bill, and they confronted me about my claims. They said that I was wrong—Bill would never hug a girl, and that I shouldn’t make claims that weren’t true. They made it clear they didn’t believe me. A short time after that meeting, I was walking home alone when a car pulled up beside me. Bill was driving, and he told me to get in. He told me that what happened between us needed to stay between us. I was never to tell anyone else because it was our little secret—was that clear? I understood perfectly.
Bill would have me accompany him in his car to the airport, and be there to pick him up when he got back from trips. He insisted that I go on the first IBLP trip to Australia that October and paid for me to go. We were all so busy on the trip, I didn’t see much of him. When we got back from Australia he added counseling after-hours, at night.
We would meet after dinner in his office around 7 or 8 p.m. That’s when he started really touching me. I am curvy, and he loved my breasts. He gave me cash and told me to buy bras that pushed me up more; he wanted me to always wear them when I was around him. He never wanted me to show him, though. He just liked to touch over the clothing. He would drive me home so I wouldn’t walk alone to my house in the dark. He would hold my hand and rub my leg and tell me not to tell anyone about what we did in his car.
I was getting a lot of heat from my housemates. I was known as Bill’s “pet.” I loved the attention, but I felt dirty. But a part of me thought this was how I was to treat “godly” men. After all, my father had trained me well. I was turned on by Bill, but I also felt terribly guilty.
I went home at the end of October for a week, and Bill called and talked to me daily. I told my mom about what was happening, and she told me I was lying. Bill arranged my flight back to O’Hare so we could ride back to Headquarters in the car together. That’s when he first put his hand between my legs and felt me all the way up.
There were rumors going around about Bill and me. My brother started hearing things and asked me about it. Of course I denied everything. Bill had sworn me to silence with both guilt and fear. I was the one who was at fault because I was tempting him. If I told anyone, the future of the entire ministry could be compromised. Why would I want to hinder God’s work? He told me that this was our little secret, just between us. If I told anyone, he said he would kick my family out of ATI.
There was enough of a stir about how much time I was spending alone with Bill that my brother went to a higher-up in January and had him try to get Bill to send me home. As I understand it, the IBLP Board called Bill on the carpet for spending so much time alone with a young girl, and I was sent home in January. I believe my brother saved me.
When Bill knew I was being sent home, he called me into his office. He took me in his arms and ran his fingers through my hair. Hugging me tight, he told me never to cut my hair, that I was his inspiration. He then kissed me deeply on the lips and told me never to forget him. Then I was picked up and put on a plane, and I have never heard from him since.
My parents blackballed me and thought I was the devil because I was sent home from Headquarters. I was a shame to the family for being sent home. I really went on a tailspin after that. I tried to take my life a number of times. I turned to sex and men to make me feel better about myself. I thought that sex was all I was worth.
I had a falling out with my parents and married a man close to Bill’s age. He left me five months later when I was 21. I have since been remarried a wonderful man, and have re-found my God. I have two beautiful boys, and a beautiful baby girl who is now in heaven.
I repressed the memories of my father’s abuse until after he died in 2006. At that time, a family member asked if my father had abused me. At first I denied that he had, but mentioned the things that Bill Gothard had done to me. I had told my parents about Bill’s abuse earlier, but they told me I had “asked” for it and that I “tempted” Bill. I had told no one else about what had happened with Bill until I talked with this other family member in 2006, because even my parents didn’t believe me.
With the stirring up of memories from my past came terrible nightmares and flashbacks. I eventually found a counselor and am working on making peace with my past, and moving on. I am still wrapping my head around it all.
I recognize that Bill didn’t take my virginity; my father did that. But Bill took my faith, and it’s taken me years to rebuild my life, my relationships, and my faith in God because of it.
[Click here for accounts from two of Charlotte’s IBLP Headquarters contemporaries.]
Charlotte’s parents stayed active in IBLP, hosting and attending seminars, until 2006 when her father passed away. She’s been married to a non-ATI guy for the past 14 years and is the proud mother of two boys.
See how the experiences Ruth, Annette, Charlotte, Rachel, Meg, Lizzie, and Grace had with Bill Gothard fit together chronologically here, and behaviorally here.
Pingback : Two Witnesses for Charlotte | Recovering Grace
Oh. My. Word. I am almost speechless!
Thank you, Charlotte, for your courage in speaking up! I'm so sorry for all the trauma that you endured, from your father, from Mr. Gothard, & from your first husband, as well as the loss of your daughter. I'm so glad that your story has a happy ending!!
There is another article on the internet posted by someone connected to this website group. The person talks about Bill Gothard being single as though there is something wrong with someone being single. In the Bible the apostle Paul said it was better to be single. Furthermore Charlotte has such a disturbing background from her family if it is true that one wonders just how reliable her story is from her. Also the talk on this website is so condemning of anyone conservative it really sounds like this site was set up by liberals who have their own destructive agenda. I don't know much about Bill Gothard but I find it strange it took all these years for anyone to say anything. Keep in mind there are people who actually are very anti Christian and this site leaves you thinking it is one of them. The Duggars seem fine to me and I think they have a wonderful family.
Pam,
You say you don't know much about Bill Gothard, why are you commenting? I am as far from a liberal as they go and have no destructive agenda against Christianity at all. However, Bill Gothard has been accused of very liberal behavior here and you seem to be defending him and blaming Charlotte because of her disturbing background. WOW...
Do you know the Duggars personally and spend time in their home or do you only know them from their TV show?
This is not liberal behavior. Sorry but accusing "liberals" of behaving this way is making an excuse for Gothard. this is male domination way. It's liberals who are fighting for women's rights and against the harassment of women. This is a man thing, not a liberal thing.
To correct you, Gothard has not been accused of liberal behavior here. He's been accused of predatory, deceitful, hypocritical and criminal behavior.
DM,
If you read the couple comments above, you will see the context of the world liberal being used. No one that I know of, certainly not here, has ever accused Gothard of being liberal. However, Pam throws out the accusation that this site, Recovering Grace, was set up by liberals to try to take down Gothard because he is conservative. This is one of the popular defenses by those who defend Bill Gothard and his teachings, That this site is really just a bunch of lies, by liberals trying to take down a conservative, godly man.
I grew up under BG and also know the Duggars personally. They are a great example of taking Gothards teaching with a grain of salt. they arent perfect but God has given them grace and they have turned out well in spite of Bill.
1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Apparently Mr. Gothard could not 'contain'.
I am a staunch conservative in my beliefs and politics. But if being a liberal means that I stand against rife hypocrisy, sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and covering up of crimes, then sign me up as one.
Un-be-leivable!
Some wisdom from Chuck Swindoll for you to consider-
“The problem with legalists is that not enough people have confronted them and told them to get lost. Those are strong words, but I don’t mess with legalism anymore. I’m 72 years old; what have I got to lose? Seriously, I used to kowtow to legalists, but they’re dangerous. They are grace-killers. They’ll drive off every new Christian you bring to church. They are enemies of the faith. Other than that, I don’t have any opinion!
So, if I am trying to force my personal list of no-no’s on you and make you feel guilty if you don’t join me, then I’m out of line and I need to be told that.”
Chuck Swindoll
" the talk on this website is so condemning of anyone conservative"
Really? Since when is sexually abusing minors conservative? Since when is calling out sexually predatory behavior liberal?
You said:
"Furthermore Charlotte has such a disturbing background from her family if it is true that one wonders just how reliable her story is from her. "
Sounds like something an attorney trying to defend a sex offender might say. Try to drag the victim through the mud and question her story based on her history of being raped? That's sick!
Comments like Pam's are so disturbing. Because a child has a challenging past we are not to believe them when people take advantage of them?
For shame Pam.
Pam,
The comment about the oddness of Mr. Gothard being single wasn't an attack against being single. It is odd for someone who has never been married to give thorough advice for marriage and parenting and it's "biblical" structure, having no firsthand experience. In the case of Mr. Gothard, his patriarchy and ideas of the submission of women are pretty clearly due to his issues as an abuser.
I understand if you have conservative beliefs it can feel like any story that exposes the dark side of some rigid conservative doctrines is difficult to take at face value. I grew up conservative too, and know there is good in that world - but for those with power in a culture where their power to abuse is not recognized or spoken out against, it is very very easy for "biblical" doctrines to distort into rigid gender roles, control, and silencing of dissent. Charlotte's story is textbook for this - an abusive father can positively THRIVE off of a passionate religious atmosphere to feed his ego, especially if it conveniently emphasizes women's proper submissive "roles" - whatever you think of male headship, it is a handy doctrine for abusers to take advantage of for their own ends if the church isn't equally focused on defending against abuse.
Are conservatives really so paranoid that they think any allegations of sexual abuse are the inventions of a delusional mind out to get them? It takes tremendous courage to do what Charlotte does in this piece - to speak the truth in hopes that it will help others. I appreciate that Recovering Grace is respecting the truth of her story.
@Monica: very well said; those are well thought out points, thanks for posting.
Conservatives believe that women hold a subordinate position to men, based on several verses of Scripture. Even more powerful Scripture lays out the case that women, beginning with Eve in the Garden of Eden, are responsible for man's fall and separation from God. So is it difficult to believe that certain Christian, conservative men might feel entitled to take liberties with "subordinate" and "originally sinful" women? So accusations of "being conservative" generally include accusations of sexism as well. Only a conservative knows how she feels about men being superior to women in God's eyes, as laid out in Holy Scripture. Of course, most liberals believe that men and women stand equal before God, and that the story of Adam's fall in the Garden of Eden is an allegorical story, probably written specifically for men to claim superiority over women for all time. It is not easy being a conservative, nor is it easy to be a liberal. Is sexism OK, even if it leads to the conduct described here where women are abused by powerful men?
Rich:
According to the Genesis account and the New Testament, Adam was responsible for Sin entering the Human Race. You see, Eve was deceived into disobeying God. Adam, on the other hand, was not deceived and he made a rational decision to disobey God. He then tries to blame God for giving Eve to him. Men and Women are equal in the eyes of God. They are sinners in need of a Savior.
Rich, it would be more helpful to ask why both liberal and conservative men prey on women. This argument from ideology is a distraction from an honest look at our fallen nature. Bill Clinton is no conservative, but he is a predator. It was not "conservative" priests who preyed on young boys. The domination of men is a curse from Genesis 3 but Jesus has broken the curse. He pointed us to Genesis 2 when instructing us about marriage. Woman was made a co-regent with man, not subordinate. He was not identified as "Ish" until she appeared as "Isha" making him complete. It was "not good" when she was not. It was full, fruitful, faithful and free communion of persons when she was made "bone of his bone", i.e. of the same substance. Together, they imaged a Trinity of Persons giving and receiving love.
Everything incompatible with that image is sin and curse. If women ensconced in the bastions of liberalism knew any freedom from sexism, why is on-campus sexual assault such an intense focus on liberal campuses? But the fruit of the spirit is love...against which there is no law.
OH MY. this person doesn't know who Bill Gothard is!!! and says these comments. I was married to a youth and music man for 42 years and found out he had a secret life and damaged girls in the church. I have become friends with 4 of the 5 I ONLY know about. One has a story just like Charlotte's. I want to throw up reading these stories because I know how these girls feel for what my X husband did. I am ONLY sorry I didn't know to protect them. I went to Bill Gothard 10 times. Quoted him and his principles. Judged people thinking I was so "goody goody. I Stayed 30 more years in a marriage that should have been over in 1983 but feared I would be the bad person since we were in ministry. I take ownership that I was an ENABLER!! Codependent, OH Praise the Lord - I am FREE!!! Love the Lord with all my heart..
Pam
I am a Christian that was raised in a conservative home. Charlottes was groomed and picked by Mr Gothard . She shared with him what her father had done . He should have helped her but instead he used her upbringing and her trust to abuse her . This has nothing to do with being liberal . Unless you believe that conservatives have the right to have sex with children ? This man preaches and teaches that woman have no voice , no choice , no careers and no education . They are to have babies ,that is all they were created for . My Bible says different .
"Pam" makes a whole lot more sense if you replace the header with "BillyG February 8, 2014." Same goes for a bunch of headers randomly throughout the site.
How about them Duggers now? Nice family, following daddy Bill's way of life!
They've made mistakes. Hindsight is golden. Their goal to achieve spiritual perfection has skewed their judgment in daily life. Give them a break. Many here were in such muddied thinking yet we thought patterns were logical, not to mention biblical. I feel the children have been exploited enough from reality tv already, even before the scandal was leaked. Let's not criticize the kids for the way they were raised, which was totally out of their power and control. It's unfortunate that Josh didn't have the structure and support he needed at 14. The pious self centered upbringing with limited education and socialization set him up for thinking and behaving in unacceptable and bizarre ways. I would be angry if I were him, at my parents for allowing me to have so many voids in my soul and mind that I toyed with becoming a monster.
As an ATI student in the 90s, my parents threatened to seek professional help for my anxiety, after having tried many punishments and mandatory prayers on their own. I was also kept uneducated, and didn't know the name or other facts about my specific anxiety type. My world was lonely and dark for more reasons than simply being homeschooled and sheltered. When I received treatment upon leaving, I realized how ignorant they were as parents and in regard to mental and emotional health.
I don't have a very specific point in my response and sharing, other than to try to illustrate to those that may not already know how twisted and oxymoronic the daily life of ATI kids can be, depending on what type of parents they have.
In regard to sexual abuse in general, what's unfortunate in this case, among several things, is that the parents told the girls what happened. No one other than Josh will ever truly know what happened and what didn't. A professional should have talked to the girls after Josh's first confession, to accurately assess what they knew and didn't know without hurting or confusing them further. Then recommendations could've been made and accountability established much earlier in this case, preventing a long-term or repetitious problem. Hindsight is 20/20.
Oh yes, the Duggars are a FINE family if you like child molestation and covering up sin, which seems to be your inclination.
Micky,
Easy does it. In general, all of us have things we would do differently if given the chance. I certainly would. But alas, what is done is done. No do-overs in this life. I rest in the grace provided by our Loving and gracious Lord.
That is all.
That hypocritical scumbag. There's probably a special place in hell for people like him.
well that tares it! I am so sorry that you went through that Charlotte I commend you for being brave enough to share your story.
You are so brave to share your story. I'm so sorry all of that happened to you. I believe you.
I am so sorry for what your father and Bill did to you. What you say lines up with everything else. I was an "encouragement case" years later but thankfully I went to ITC instead of HQ and never received the counseling he promised my parents. It takes courage to tell a story like this knowing not everyone will believe you.
I had to pull out an old photo album after reading today's story so I could remember dates. I was at HQ in 89/90 and he spent months tormenting me. He loved those sexual conversations cloaked in Godly concern and each conversation just escalated. The last conversation I had with him he confronted me because one of “his boys” was having impure thoughts about me. He described, in detail, what this boy had confessed to him and even told me his name. Then he grilled me wanting me to confess if I had any impure thoughts and told me we needed to figure out how I had caused this boy to stumble. It was never ending with this man. He isolates and wears you down until there is so much shame, confusion, and loneliness that you can’t function.
I am so grateful I had an older sister who refused anything to do with ATIA. My first act of rebellion was calling her and sobbing out my story. She is the one who told me Bill was a predator and I was being sexually harassed. Reading these stories I realize he just got better at picking, grooming, and shaming to keep silence. Such a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
What inappropriate conversations to have with a young lady!! How old were you at the time?
He violates several of his own teachings just in your story alone. He should've had a WOMAN "counseling" you. When he was teaching us young people how to give testimonies, he told us to be careful not to glorify evil, but to give brief and generic descriptions of our sins. So for him to tell you **in detail** what another young person was thinking, and give you his *NAME* was the exact opposite of what he told the rest of us to do!
I'm glad you got out of there before anything worse happened.
Neil T. Anderson, one of the authors recommended by IBLP, wrote "The Bondage Breaker" and "Victory Over The Darkness" in which one is guided through confession of sin. I had come across a teaching by some that the more specific the confession, including naming the body parts used, was somehow "more powerful". I confess that I tried it a few times, wanting the best results for people, and discontinued it due to the creep factor. I just felt dirty afterward.
It should be pointed out that I don't think Mr. Anderson advocates this approach and I'm not sure who I got it from, but perhaps it was in some communique from IBLP. If so, such inappropriate conversations would be in keeping with the teachings for those seeking to be counsellors.
Gross.
Rebecca, I'm so sorry you had to go through such an ugly thing, and am glad you had the older sister to help you get away from that life (if you could consider it a real life.) I hope you are doing well and are happy now that you are safely away from this horrid person.....can't bring myself to refer to him as a "man".
Oh, Charlotte. My heart is breaking for you. I wish I could give you a big hug. Thank you for sharing your journey and what you have been through. The courage it takes to do that...wow.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. I am in tears.
OMG This man cannot be taken down soon enough. My partner is a survivor as well of childhood sexual abuse by a family member, and I have held her through the flashbacks. It's not fun, and it makes you want to rip out the throat of the person who did that to them.
I am so angry for you right now, Charlotte!! I am furious that no one believed you; I do believe you and your story. It takes courage to tell a story like this, and I don't think you would do this if it were not true because of the difficultly in doing so.
I am glad that your brother went to bat for you, and was watching out for you. That is what family is supposed to do for you.
Mr. Gothard; if you are reading this or a member of your staff is reading and reporting it to you. You should be ashamed of yourself. How DARE you? How dare you treat other humans like this? How dare you look them in the eye and tell them that your misbehavior is their fault and problem. You should received jail time for this sort of behavior; you are a sexual predator. You have no business being in 'education', character or otherwise (fyi, I do not think ATI should qualify as education, but that is a different discussion for another day). How dare you mess with people's lives, emotions, and bodies for your own gratification. What does Jesus think of this behavior?
It's about time you step down and close shop.
Crying with you, dear Charlotte, as I read this sad story. This is so heartbreaking to what happened to you. I'm so angry right now with your father, and especially bg. I'm sick to my stomach. He took perfect advantage of you knowing that you were already wounded by your father. Oh God, please, bring justice to this reprobate man in this case and many others.
You are not dirty, Charlotte, you are beautiful! You are pure! Those men are dirty in their hearts, minds, hands, etc. ok, your father is dead now (sorry, it brings relief knowing that he can't ever hurt you again), but Bill needs his hands and "something else" cut off ASAP so he doesn't touch any other young girl NO MORE! That's enough! It got to stop!
Your courage is an inspiration. Thank you for baring your soul this way, and helping shine light where it needs to be shined.
Thank you Charlotte for sharing your story.....Righteous anger has flooded my heart for you! Predators are in the church and my husband and I just went through trying to defend victims and were told by our church that "all sin is the same and are you saying that you could never do this?" They sent our faith into a tailspin and we are STILL trying to deal with all the heartache is has caused. My husband stood up for the victims and was shamed for not keeping unity.....we had to leave this church. Unfortunately to this date nothing was ever done except to make the victims ask for forgiveness from the predator! How messed up! We tried to warn friends in our church about this man and were told "I don't want to hear anything....that is gossip!" To this day I am struggling to EVER trust men in leadership except my husband who defends women and children.
Oh Alicia, that is heartbreaking, and unfortunately not too uncommon. We need to change the rape culture in our nation. I am so thankful that Charlotte had the guts to tell.
What is being done to stop this monster?
The six-part story, while therapeutic to Meg, was somewhat sensationalized, drawing it out in six parts, written in third person narrative, other storylines. For the record, I believe the account, but this is much more gut wrenching.
To the point: Bill Gothard touched me sexually. This was far beyond grooming and playing footsies. Flagrant offenses that are criminal.
The added touch of two corroborating witnesses makes it all the worse.
Staff, is there a statute of limitations on these things? What is the Bill Gothard camp saying now about this?
Stop this monster now.
I'm not RG staff, but as mentioned in the intro, the statute of limitations has expired for Charlotte and for Meg.
Mr. Gothard has not responded in any way to my knowledge. The longer he stays silent, the more guilty he appears. But he can't say that he *didn't* do anything when there are 34 documented names (according to the article posted either Monday or yesterday) of girls he has treated inappropriately. That's a lot of witnesses. Way more than the Bible's "mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses."
How old was she when this was going on? The age of consent in Illinois is 17, and she was 16 when she started working at ATI. It sounds to me like it took some time for this activity to progress to stages that would be considered unlawful if done to a minor. To clarify, hugging, holding hands, and other nonsexual physical contact would have been legal; him touching her breasts, buttocks, or groin would not have been.
I think, due to the culmination, the other actions can still be considered grooming of a minor. Also, his position over her, similar to a clergy position, makes a big difference in the coersiveness of it all. That lends weight to the illegality and nonconsensualness of it. She was there under his authority as an "encouragement case". She had been preconditioned to think this is what godly men did, that she had no rights in the matter, and that no one would speak up for her. As her "authority", she did not feel she had the option to refuse him.
It all adds up to a very nonconsensual picture. Trying to find loopholes whereby it was "not technically illegal", doesn't really change the overall picture.
"Age of consent" does not mean that inappropriate behavior is ok once the person that said behavior is directed at turns said age. "Age of consent" is simply the age at which the person can say "ok" to certain behavior without having to get parental or guardian permission. Both individuals have to be ok with it. Not just one.
Excerpts (720 ILCS 5/12-12 e' seq.; formerly Ill.Rev.Stat.. ch. 38. ¶12-12 et seq.) (Effective July 1, 1984; including Amendments effective January, 1, 1994.) I think all of this was already in force in 1992.
• 720 ILCS 5/12-12. Definitions
...
e) "Sexual conduct" means any intentional or knowing touching or fondling by the victim or the accused, either directly or through clothing, of the sex organs, anus or breast of the victim or the accused, or any part of the body of a child under 13 years of age. for the purpose of sexual gratification or arousal of the victim or the accused.
• 720 ILCS 5/12-16. Aggravated criminal sexual abuse
...
(d) The accused commits aggravated criminal sexual abuse if he or she commits an act of sexual penetration or sexual conduct with a victim who was at least 13 years of age but under 17 years of age and the accused was at least 5 years older than the victim.
...
(f) The accused commits aggravated criminal sexual abuse if he or she commits an act of sexual conduct with a victim who was at least 13 years of age but under 18 years of age
when the act was committed and the accused was 17 years of age or over and held a position of trust, authority or supervision in relation to the victim.
(g) Sentence. Aggravated criminal sexual abuse is a Class 2 felony.
www.ptb.state.il.us/pdf/sexassualt.pdf (text of 1984/1994 law starts on p. 51 of pdf)
Is my concern that finding a current victim will be next to impossible. I imagine that Bill is fortifying his remaining supporters, telling them that they are the last hope of saving his ministry, and furthering the work of the Lord. I think that Bill is not stupid. He has established a pattern of selecting victims carefully. Out of the myriad of employees he has welcomed to headquarters, a comparatively few have been isolated as potential targets, both because of hero worship and an apparent inability to disappoint their parents' complete faith in the ministry. Now, more than ever, he is likely assuring them of how desperately he needs them. Being needed can be a powerful motivator, especially to the special encouragement types Bill chooses. There's a reason it has taken the victims years to speak out: Bill knew it would.
I think this is very likely, Nicole. These girls have been "groomed" in various ways since they were young. Many of them seem to have no clue what inappropriate attention from a man looks like, and even less knowledge of what "sexual harassment" is. If/when they figure out what happened to them, they then have to start the process of working through it and deciding whom they want to tell or go to for help. Going public with their story is even further down the road in many cases, I'm sure.
I'm beginning to think that these Hyper Patriarchy/Extreme Authoritarian groups raise the girls to be potential victims - wittingly or unwittingly. From what I have read recently, it seems that "suffering in silence" is equated with "living a surrendered life for Christ". This horrifies and sickens me, because it is not the Jesus Christ that I know. The Jesus Christ I know said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30 And again, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18-19
he's 79 years old... don't even want to think about him still abusing teen girls... that's where "dirty old men" comes from... if they find someone currently being abused, it's even more disgusting!!!!
Thank you for sharing. I haven't been very vocal about ATI and my involvement in the past, as my experience was fairly brief, and fairly mild compared to many here. I always saw fallacies and dangers, but didn't fully grasp the gravity of it all.
After hearing these gut wrenching stories of pain, I want to shout the truth from every medium available and put an end to the abuse and deception.
You guys are doing a great job, keep spreading the truth!
Why haven't the police been called???? This is 100% evidence that he molested a child. WITH WITNESSES.
The only thing that I can tell that they "Witnessed" was them riding in a car together.
Events like these, 'groping a girl's privates' almost never happen with witnesses, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The witnesses confirm that this young lady exists, worked at HQ during the time she says she did, and a few other things, things which add to the collective body of witness from countless other people in regards to many other girls. It's for the purpose of establishing patterns of behavior enacted by Bill Gothard.
It is only logical to suppose that if someone were to perform such an act on their intended victim, they'd do it when they knew no-one else was around to see it. I mean really, let's think about this. As such, we cannot automatically assume such an account is false, given the nature of this kind of crime. Currently, it cannot be proven true, but it cannot be proven false either.
“… ‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’ (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—[rules] according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but THEY ARE OF NO VALUE IN STOPPING THE INDULGENCE OF THE FLESH.”
— Colossians 2:21-23 (emphasis added)
This revelation matters even to those who do not know this "Gothard" person. His ilk are everywhere — a killer plague in the church.
If you have been abused, get real counseling. Seek justice. From church authorities who will actually fight sick evils. From civil authorities appointed by God to punish (Rom. 13).
How about an interview on Fox News. I believe that CNN and MSNBC would even carry it.
I have asked him. You can ask him here too -
http://billgothard.com/contact
So sorry for the hurts you have experianced! Its interesting you describe your dads fanatisism for ati/iblp while he was also abusing you. legalism decieves people into thinking they can atone for there own sins. no wonder so many hardcore ati families have horribly ugly sins hiding in there closets
I am not a Gothard-ite. Anyone who knows me realizes that I try to think for myself after immersing myself in Scripture. In depth Bible study...seeking God...seeking TRUTH. So please do not accuse me of being a "follower."
People...something is just not ringing true with all this.
TAKE YOUR LAWYERS...TAKE YOUR STAFF...AND GO MEET WITH MR. G!!!! This is NOT being handled properly. SOMETHING WITH YOUR GROUP IS WRONG...terribly wrong. You can respond to me with all your cutting remarks, but that will do nothing but make me doubt your maturity, and convince me how misguided you are.
In conferring with my lawyer friends, they say they would give you no credence based on this website. In conferring with spiritual advisors, in numerous denominations, most of whom have had no experience with Mr.G, they also say that they would give no credence based on this website and how you are handling matters.
YOU MUST HAVE THAT MEETING WITH MR. G!!!! Bottom line.
YOU MUST HAVE THAT MEETING!!!
Oh please. He's lost all credibility as a "Christian" leader now. Would you meet with Warren Jeffs?
There WERE meetings with Warren Jeffs. And he was charged with felony child abuse. Not just some website making allegations.
Meeting makes sense if there is a reason. Meeting together to pray with or just stare at Mr. Gothard would be such a frustrating enterprise.
I'm not sure what your lawyer friends mean by "credence," but I presume they are talking about what would be admissible in court. Of course a story website like RG would be inadmissible hearsay evidence in a court of law, but that doesn't mean the facts claimed are not credible. But this isn't a court of law, nor is it claiming to be one. Also, the article i quite clear that the events alleged were not witnessed by anyone other than the victim and BG, and the "witnesses" only verified that BG spent a considerable amount of time alone with the author, not that they actually saw him touch her.
Annie, I would like to reply to your comment that there were meetings with Warren Jeffs. Who had those meetings with him? Was this before or after he was arrested? Because if I recall correctly, Mr. Jeffs was on the FBI's most wanted list for approx a year before he was arrested. He was charged (while still on the run) after his temple in Texas was raided during an unrelated search, after they found proof he'd had sex with a 12 year old (and more). If these meetings happened after Jeffs was arrested, than I don't think thought applies here. Jeffs hid behind his fences, guns, goons, and by hopping from state to state; he granted interviews to no one, and spoke to no one outside the FLDS.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here!
He has NOT lost all credibility as a "Christian" leader. I know MANY people who still find spiritual enrichment from his ministry. I am not going to speak about the horrible things this woman has described that happened to her. I am very sorry this happened to her. However, I would just like to say that some of the most influential, Godly leaders are accused of some sort of wrong doing. I think many times it is an attack of the Devil to discredit a ministry or man who is successfully being used of The Lord to bring people to repentance, wisdom, knowledge, ultimately to the foot of the cross. Someone mentioned that as a single man, Mr. Gothard is not qualified to provide marriage counseling. Really? So, following that line of thought, only victims of incest, pedophaelia, rape, child abuse, drug abuse etc. are qualified to counsel someone with these issues. The Bible is the authority on all subjects and if you counsel by and apply it's principles, ANYONE can counsel ANYONE. Psychology (in it's current application) is one of THE MOST dangerous forces at the disposal of Satan. To be sure, he will use it if it works for him.....
Many times is is evil perpetrated by the leader against those in his care.
"Psychology (in it’s current application) is one of THE MOST dangerous forces at the disposal of Satan."
Actually, this teaching against psychology is what kept many young students for seeing Bill Gothard as he truly is---a man of many psychological issues, to put it nicely. All truth is God's truth, and there is much truth in the field of Psychology. When you throw out an entire field because of a lack of Bible references, you're throwing much truth to the curb and refusing to see truth as God has made evident through the broader study of science and human nature. God has made human nature and He wants us to learn from what He has made.
Hi Becka, I thought your comment was interesting that you say most influential, Godly leaders are accused of some sort of wrong doing. While this CAN certainly be an attack from Satan, the sheer number of people preparing to come forward (34 women and counting), and identifiable witnesses suggest that in Mr. Gothard's case, the accusations are more than just a smear tactic, or some ploy of the devil.
(In Charlotte's case, the fact that there are no direct witnesses does not mean the story is not true, especially considering what she said happened, it's only logical to suppose that anyone who is going to grope the privates of an underage girl, will only do so when there are no witnesses around to verify her story. As such, her story cannot be proven true, but it cannot be proven false either, due to the nature of the crime.)
I don't know if you've read alot of the other stories or comments on this site, please feel free to do so.
The objection against Mr. Gothard giving out marriage and child-rearing advice is not the mild thing suggested in your comment. If he had merely been giving his advice as suggestions, with a, 'but don't take my word for it, search the Scriptures and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit', it would be a VERY different thing.
But instead, he set himself up as an ultimate authority, to the point that I know I felt that to question him, would be to question God. This is the main objection. As a childless bachelor, how could he have given such precise, exact commands, with absolutely no wiggle room or consideration for unusual circumstances etc.. with no real life experience to back it up?
Most counselors for various sorts of trauma, sexual abuse, etc.. have been trained very well, and have interacted with many victims of the mentioned crimes, in order to best prepare to handle the case. It is not the same scenario as a man who has literally never had the burden of marriage or children, to be handing out such heavy burdens, when he never tested them on his own family in the first place.
In fact, there are reports from the early days of his ministry, that the deans of his school said they would only consider approving and publicly supporting his teachings if he TESTED them first and came back with positive results. He went ahead and started preaching them without running the requested tests. (My knowledge of those events is a bit sketchy, I may not be remembering it precisely, but I believe that was the gist of the information I found.)
Anyway, I apologize for the long comment, I hope it will present another perspective to this situation.
We were involved with Gothard and I totally agree with all of his teachings. My 3 children were also involved one even worked at headquarters and never heard a complaint never any misconduct. I agree with your assessment Becka. All of his stuff is very Biblically based and that is what I appreciated about him. He didn't state his opinion he stated scripture. As I said we were very involved -how many of you really were or are you going on here say. I kindof feel like this is the witch trials most were not witches if you go back and study and a lot of the accusers were young girls. Enough is enough. Most that are abused don't come forward-I know through experience they don't flaunt it and give details.
Mary, if you would read more of our comments you would understand that many of us have much involvement with the ministries. You would also see how Gothard's words were NOT scripture but his opinion, using scripture for proof texting. All you need to do to verify that is look up the scriptures in the back of the Basic Seminar textbook and read them in context and try to figure out what the actual scripture has to do with his "principles". Very often, they are totally unrelated. We never had time to look them up during the seminars and were too tired afterward. Clever marketing. Cite a bunch of scripture but don't let them read it.
Annie, in all your talks with corporate lawyers and corporate denomination people -- corporate, corporate, corporate -- how much have you researched about how Scripture says to deal with flagrant nonrepentant church leaders and members per Matt. 18 and 1 Cor. 5? If not, start by reading those chapters. Read also a book such as The Peacemaker by reconciling ministry head/attorney Ken Sande or Unpacking Forgiveness by Chris Brauns. And if you have no comprehension of dealing with or identifying spiritual abuse, read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Do not presume to know anything without knowing more about these topics -- and specifically how Christ is the peaceful warrior who saves sin's victims and by no means will let the guilty go unpunished.
Moreover, even if you approached this from a legal perspective -- which you cannot, if the statute of limitations has expired -- it is absolutely indefensible to err on the side of the accused offender in a sexual-abuse or -harassment case. You must always, always, give the prospective victim of abuse or harassment the leeway. Especially if she is a woman. Always.
I am sure no one here has slandered you as a reflexive Gothard-ite, etc. But if you have truly read the Scripture and think so independently, you would be able to show the compassion of Christ to the wounded *even if they are behaving badly*. To that end: stop the accusations and knock off the attempted legal-ese and all-caps-with-saturated-exclamation-points. And I daresay, show some sympathy even when folks here suspect you may be a Gothard plant. Is it *theoretically* possible? Could a once-powerful evangelical leader send "plants" to a website to defend him "objectively"?
Anyway, if you fancy yourself objective and independent, you only prove the thickness of your own bias. Those who pride themselves on their independence of thought prove themselves the most vulnerable to the memes and assumptions and even deceptions lurking safely in their own blind spots. Try some humility. Turn from your "independence." Be dependent on Christ. Be dependent on the wisdom of His servant-leaders in the Church.
Wow...you can really give a tongue lashing. Glad I am not married to you!
As to being a "plant"...LOL. I only discovered this site a few weeks back, and have no contact with anyone Gothard.
Sir...I care, I honestly do. Please take the Christian high road, and pray for me, will you?
As for my stance...I remain firm. Go have that meeting. Then I will listen to you.
Annie,
There have been too many meetings. The time for talking is over. Repentance first, then we can talk about reconciliation.
People have met him, people have talked to him, it has done no good. Are we supposed to get the thousands of people he has hurt together with him, to hear him say he was sorry they were hurt but he just came up with a program that will solve it?
Many attempts have been made. It is time for answers not more of the past 30 years of dodge-ball.
For the record, my father and I have raised serious concerns to Bill Gothard and the IBLP board with nothing in response.
It's ok, God can close it down center by center if that's what it takes. We need to do what can be done and also call on God in prayer to close it. Pray and swim toward shore.
Great response!
Annie,
Your passion is admirable, but Mr. Gothard has a 40+ year reputation of stoning the "prophets" God sends him to warn him of his sin. The RG staff would be well advised to step cautiously when dealing with a man who once wrote a letter to every pastor on his mailing list calling a man an "Agent of Satan" who's only sin was pointing out Bill's spiritually dangerous behavior with his staff. Behavior that Bill continued and has probably directly led to where we are today.
It's been well documented in this blog how Bill exacts vengeance on those who cross him. The RG leadership appears to me to be very wise in how this is being handled. Don't forget to look at this in context of the past 40 or so years.
Truth.
This is all being handled appropriately, Annie. Only those of us who have been in something like this (or Scientology, or Latter Day Saints or or or...) know that this tale will weave out and justice will come. Going to BG before he is repentant only gives him another time to try to cover his tracks and would be costly in time and money for no purpose whatsoever.
Keep the testimonies coming. All 30 some and more. Parents, students, ex-ATI Center Leaders - keep the testimonies coming. In churches, on the net, in print. At some point even those who do not want to see will be begin to question. I know. I was there. For those who were not immersed in ATI/IBLP, you will never fully understand. God does and He will gently lead RG as to how to handle all these egregious accusations. God will give RG wisdom.
RG, thank you. Thank you for praying, for seeking God's counsel, and for seeking godly counsel in your decisions on this site. I hope and pray that teachings on authority, grace, and many other very wrong teachings from IBLP will be purged from churches after thousands read these testimonies.
Charlotte, thank you for allowing us this opportunity to see more truth. My heart aches for you and all you have gone through. May God richly bless you and your family.
Well said, Julia.
Meetings are only useful if both parties are interested in examining the truth. That's obviously not the case here. Are you not reading what's being written? Do you not see the decades' worth of insular denial and reputation-protectionism on display from the top down in IBLP? Did you not read RG's correspondence with Gothard, in which he refused to so much as even vaguely admit to personal wrongdoing? What on earth would a meeting accomplish? Why on earth would anyone waste their time in such a pointless pursuit? The man is neither honest nor trustworthy. From your comments, I can only deduce that you have little experience in dealing with such people.
Annie,
You are very emphatic. But a little non-specific. I can't tell the cause of your concern. Do you disbelieve these stories and think this is slander? Or are you concerned because you are afraid any victims will not receive justice & be further hurt because RG is handling this poorly (in your opinion)? If your concern IS for possible victims, may I make a suggestion? Since you say that you have experience with these matters? Please contact the Recovering Grace leadership team privately and detail your concerns, including the specific negative effects you believe their approach may have. Refer them to the legal counsel you mentioned. Offer suggestions on the approach you believe would be more likely to result in the protection of any past & future victims. That would be far more helpful than posting vehement criticisms here.
I just wanted to clarify that I am not trying to be snarky, I am sincere in my request. I have no experience with these kinds of matters...I can't say for certain whether or not that RG is handling this the way that it should be. I just want to see any victims protected, and if you know the right way to do that, please help as an advisor rather than hinder as a sideline critic. I truly believe based on everything I have seen of them that it is concern for these girls & women that is motiving RG's leadership in this "expose". If you share that concern, you should recognize that you are on the same side even if you have serious reservations about their approach.
I agree with Annie. Have that meeting without precondition. There is nothing to lose.
Annie... I mean this as nicely as I know how... No one cares what your lawyer friends say. I'm sure RG must have their own lawyers they are consulting.
FYI there ARE lawyers on the RG team.
You have to be kidding. This is your response? No. Bill Gothard does not get to control the outcome this time. He is sexual predator of minors. He is a monster. He belongs in jail. The only meeting he is entitled to is a meeting in front of a judge, with a jury present.
Kevin BIll has been controlling the outcomes for 40 years apparently he does get to control the outcomes....
Not this time John. This will be different. His organization almost collapsed in 1980. If that scandal had happened in the internet age, I doubt very much that it would have survived. From comments made, it seems that those who came into ATI a few years after the scandal had no idea that there even was a scandal. This time the information will get out. The stories are getting out and being read by people all over the country. I have talked to people who have been to ATI conferences growing up and were raised with many of the teachings. Having just now been informed about the sexual abuse, and from there gone on to read many of the other articles on RG, they won't go near Gothard. They're informed. They will tell others. Once a critical mass of Christians become informed of the truth, it will be very hard to recruit others to the programs. I believe you will see that a year from now, the organization will just shadow of what it is today, if it is even still around. They will likely go the way of Vision Forum. If the leader is rotten to the core, why would anyone keep following his teachings? Oh, there will be the Alfreds, but there are only so many Alfreds. It's the new members that will be hard to recruit.
Annie--Please see yesterday's post. RG tried to arrange a meeting with Gothard, but he wouldn't agree to it.
Also, if you read Don Veinot's book A Matter of Basic Principles, Veinot and his organization (Midwest Christian Outreach) also tried to meet with him, and they thought everything was good to go (Gothard had even agreed to have the meeting recorded so there would be no future confusion). Then at the last minute, Gothard refused to meet unless the recording was cancelled. The book also mentions another time when Gothard did attend a meeting and agreed to change things (and that meeting involved a building project, not something as serious as Charlotte's story), but again failed to follow through.
Gothard has a 40+ year history of both refusing to meet with others to discuss their concerns, and also agreeing to make changes only to not follow through. Another "meeting", even if Gothard were to agree to hold it, would solve nothing.
My own personal dealings with Gothardism are nowhere near to the extent of the stories told on this site. When I dealt with his followers I thought I was simply dealing with a bunch of snobs. Later I learned of the heresy. Now I learn how Gothard is little more than a frustrated dirty old man.
It's well past time to call for Gothard to step down and for IBLP to shut its doors.
Annie, why do they need to meet with Bill Gothard? So he can repent? His repentance means nothing to me, maybe it would to some of those he victimized, but the only REAL action that needs to be taken is legal, to stop him from doing this in the present and future. Dude needs to be stopped, and ASAP. So "this blog" helps people cope but also gets the word out to those that are afraid to share. And eventually, someone within the statute of limitations will come forward and he's hopefully gonna spend some time in Sing Sing with linebackers that haven't seen a woman in decades. Seriously.
They have been repeatedly requesting that meeting for the sole purpose of Bill Gothard's true repentance, but it is Bill who is not willing to meet to repent. You take a dish, and throw it down, so the dish breaks, and then say sorry to the dish. Did the sorry mend the dish? Bill Gothard only wants to say he is sorry for their bad memories. He does not want to repent of all the evil he has done with his sexual molestation.
" . . . have spent many hours in prayerful consideration before publishing this story . . ."
Pam, you cannot be serious. Your branding the proprietors of this website as "liberals" shows that you lack discernment. The article begins with a disclaimer that no liberal would write. Yes, some of the anti-ATI websites out there are liberal and anti-Christian, but this site is neither of those things.
Annie, a lot of people here have answered you on various points. I'm going to address the issue in your comment that seems most important to me.
You said, "I am not a Gothard-ite. Anyone who knows me realizes that I try to think for myself after immersing myself in Scripture. In depth Bible study...seeking God...seeking TRUTH..."
It's always a conundrum when people boldly claim that they take scripture as their authority and then *don't quote it*. You claim that you study the Bible "in depth" and "immerse" yourself in scripture. Can we get a little Bible and scripture here to explain your complaints, please? All I see are appeals to men's authority. This whole issue is about the abuse of man's authority. How about giving us some of this scripture that you have proclaimed yourself to be immersed in?
Yes, I'm being rather blunt and likely will be seen as rude (and misguided). So be it. But, I find it rather offensive to have a person proclaim their great knowledge of GOD'S WORD and then not give a shred of it to prove their position.
My answer to your complaints:
Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
He's been confronted - by one, by few, by many. One purpose in publishing these accounts is to warn others of the dangerous nature of this man and his (apparently self-serving) teachings. This is not all about him.
Annie, I don't know HOW MANY times they have to say they ALREADY TRIED to meet with Gothard and he has yet to respond.
Yes...he did respond. But they would not agree to a meeting unless he answered their charges first, and made full "confession." NOT
BEING HANDLED PROPERLY!!!(Yes...all caps, E. Stephen.) Take your lawyers...take your staff...and go meet. Should be nothing to fear if you have the truth along with your counsel.
Fear is one thing. A (unnecessary) fruitless waste of time is something completely different.
I personally do not believe Bill Gothard is interested in repentance. (Look at his response to SaraJ's letter for starters). I think he is more concerned with preserving his image.
And for the record, you are not the only one who works in the corporate world or knows lawyers (I know a few myself, including the one I see in the mirror each morning). And I absolutely believe RG is taking the right approach here.
"...including the one I see in the mirror each morning". HA! Love it, great response.
Keep up the good work RG. We are praying for you all.
Annie, suggestion: google for information about how the "meeting" went between Mr. Gothard and Dr. Ronald Allen. Also, go look up the old Christianity Today articles about how more than half of Gothard's staff quit or were fired over the scandal in the 1980s. If Bill were approachable and if it were possible to have a productive meeting with him face to face, RG would never have existed.
Indeed. Based on these truths, it would be ludicrous to attempt to reboot the universe -- to act as if this situation only began yesterday -- to act as if trying the same thing *again* is not merely close one definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
I think it could not be more appropriate, to shout this man's misdeeds from the rooftop. No more silencing the victims. No more keeping things hidden.
The only direction to go, now, is forward.
You just kind of stumbled upon this site. And, reading the stories, your reaction is anger and hostility, expressed with bold caps all over the place, at the victims and/or the messenger? No compassion for the victims? No anger that this man has manipulated people into letting him continue his predatory behavior for 40 years? No anger at a man who was the counselor of a minor who had been raped by her father as a child, who goes on to take advantage of the situation and her vulnerability to sexually molest her from his position of power? There are 34 victims! There are multiple witnesses!
Your furious....at....the messenger?
You're right. Something just doesn't fit here.
Yes!
Thanks! You have expressed my thoughts and reaction very precisely!
Thank you charlotte for sharing.
RG, you have my full support.
I don't understand how the statute of limitations could be in effect for a sexual predator. Consider the cases of Holocaust victims bringing their tormentors to justice 50 years later.There was no limitation on that. Also, the sex scandals in the Catholic church have come to light after 20+ years and have resulted in criminal convictions.(That is, when the victims weren't paid off). I know of a priest who was to stand trial for his sex crimes against adolescent boys. He committed suicide the day before his trial.
Also, some of the comments here lead me to believe that BG has been active in this way in more recent years.
Charlotte, you are a heroine in my books, for bravely bringing this to light.
Thank you
I am not a lawyer, but I believe there is a completely different statute, if penetration occurs. If it did not, the statute of limitations is much shorter.
Charlotte.
I was at HQ at the same time, and was oblivious to your pain.
I am so sorry.
I pray that the God Who Sees and knows all heals you, deafens your ears to those who don't believe, and judges those who've sinned so horribly against you.
Actually Annie, they wanted to know what he wanted to talk about so it wasn't going to be a waste of time to get LOTS of people in one place for a meeting. Why go when he's not going to talk about the reason why they were there. They wanted to make sure he knew they they wanted to talk about the Sexual harassment among many other things. And if he's not going to respond that he understands, then why even meet with him.
“Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak”
Marcus Tullius Cicero quotes (Ancient Roman Lawyer, Writer, Scholar, Orator and Statesman, 106 BC-43 BC)
I respect the leadership of RG for not shouting in caps that Gothard should resign, rather using logic to present facts.
"Charlotte", I am very sorry for what you went through. On one hand it does not surprise me, sexual perversions run rampant among men obsessed with "purity". On the other hand, yes, even I am surprised.
With prayers for healing for you,
Oh Charlotte and Laura...and the many others that may be reading and relating. I am so sorry for your pain. That it happened under the 'protection' of your father (Charlotte) and this 'godly' man is just too much. That I (we as a family) were ever associated with this pathetic man and organization makes me wonder where my head was! I take back all my head shaking and tisk tisking over Catholic and cult leaders who have abused in the past. Always I was wondering how can you be so blind people? And here are the many fingers pointing right back at me!
I believe you. When the initial articles started to come out on this site, I must admit I was not too sure. The statues of limitations may have run out, but here in Canada, we are prosecuting Catholics and former members of the police and other offenders YEARS after molestations and improprieties took place. There must be precedent in the court of law.
Recovering Grace: Frist thank you for sharing these accounts. From what I have read in the past MANY attempts at confronting Bill have taken place. ALL have been ignored, refused or sidelined. It would seem clear to me that the Biblical approach has been taken in the first step...but if he will not hear you then there are other steps to take. The Christian leaders of the day, Wheaton College (who long ago washed their hands of him), and finally the law now need to be approached. The law is there for our protection. Furthermore, from what I have seen here in Canada, the law seems to believe the claimant - even though the claim is decades old - before they believe the accused especially when it comes to claims of abuse.
I was on the sideline watching from a distance (because we had changed churches prior to the discovery of a prominent elder who admitted to his friend and son, pastor and assistant pastor, how he had abused boys in past churches) when I witnessed what I feel was a Biblical approach. After the elder's confession, they went to all the boys he had sexually abused. Asked for their forgiveness and to the parents and pastors under whom he had served. THEN they went before the current church. Finally they went to the law and even an interview on the news. That was the last we heard of it. It was shouted abroad ONE DAY and it was done.
Now I am certain this would not happen with BG. He has abused in so many ways so many thousands over a much longer decades. You have taken the first step. Been rebuffed. NOW it is time to MOVE ON and address Christian leaders and then the law. I am certain, given the broad range of both abuse and the thousands that were betrayed in other ways, lives ruined, financial loss, suffering of separation, in short manipulation of the highest degree, that this man and these allegations will not be squelched and come to naught. It really is time to act.
Unfortunately, only you have the power to do so as you have garnered all these reports. We can and will support you, but we are not able to act as you are. I have personally sent out emails and contacted ATI friends from the past (some won't see me as a friend now because, like me, they initially don't want to believe they wasted such a significant portion of their lives and their children's being associated with such a man/ministry). I certainly will do what I can.
Thank you again RG and contributors for all you are doing. We will be bathing you in prayer! I can honestly say that I have been able to think of little else since Meg's first posting. God lead you and bless you.
Actually, and I am only speaking of evidence and legality not whether or not this happened, there is zero proof. We have two testimonies of seeing this girl alone and her testimony of what happened. There are conveniently no physical proofs, pictures, videos, or eye witness accounts of this situation actually happening. Would the mom be willing to testify because that would certainly be strong evidence? Otherwise the question will arise, why didn't someone say something then? Bill will get people to testify on his behalf that they were alone with him and nothing happened. I guarantee it. That was the thing about this man. He was very good at picking people to be around him that wouldn't question his decisions and were overly blindly loyal. Nobody with discernment was allowed two feet into the inner circle. These poor girls will only feel more hurt at the end of the day. He will say it is like Jesus being falsely accused. I don't think this could go to court unless you have other accounts exactly like this one. Perhaps with two or three of these, you might have a case. Up to date, this is the only one that contains serious sexual touching that would be obvious sexual touching. Meg's story plays out like a love story gone wrong without any touching other than hugs and feet. Again, whether you argue how naive these people were is irrelevant. The courts will look at the age. Bill could argue that he wanted to marry Meg but felt that there was too big of an age difference and decided that when she left, he would end it. Meg would be grilled about her own intentions in the situation. Even rape cases sometimes are arduous for the victim I am just saying that legally, it would be very difficult to convict even though it would probably create a scandal, give more ammunition for the atheist camp who are constantly throwing this kind of stuff in my face, and drag a lot of innocent people through the mud. I mean, what is your goal? What are you hoping to accomplish at the end? That's the question to ask yourself. Will this accomplish your goal? I know partially it is to destroy this ministry. In medicine we are often faced with the challenge of whether or not the pain of treating a condition was worth it. For the right cause, I personally would say yes. . What do you think?
If Bill died tonight, would God let him into heaven? There are numerous warnings in Scripture on this. If not, shouldn't we be concerned to see people saved. Jude22-23
In light of this, it just seems odd to me, the way BG would rail on and on at young people for benign "courtship violations". I mean, they talked to each other too long. They smiled too much at each other. I recall him once taking up most of a Saturday night meeting at hq, railing on a young couple who had run a few errands around town. I mean, she just needed a ride to the grocery store! And to hear him rant, they were the most vile of sinners! It was so out of proportion. And of course, the young people had been sent home in disgrace.
It all makes sense, now. Pieces of the puzzle, falling into place.
I find those who falsely accuse others are often guilty of the very same offenses they accuse others. Those false accusations pop into the mind of the accuser because they are the thoughts the accuser privately harbors.
I attended an Independent Fundamentalist college for a semester. I got in trouble for smiling too much. I was accused of flirting. That made me smile, because I thought it was silly for someone to think all smiling was flirting. My answer was "My Savior loves me and desires for me to know joy therefore I smile. And I am thankful my reality didn't match your imaginations." Within 8 hours I was home. ATI sounds very similar to IFB.
Charlotte, I pray your story will help young women stand in the power of the Truth and speak up against ungodly manmade authorities as opposed to submitting to them.
Like the others who have shared their abuse you are part of the next generation that refuses to allow abuse of this nature to stand. You are using your pain to educate others concerning the oppression of women in groups like this. May God continue to bless you and your family.
Charlotte,
First, I want to say that I believe you. You are very brave and courageous. I am so sorry for all that you had to endure, especially, by those who professed/profess to be a believe in Jesus Christ. I sincerely pray that you will continue to find healing and restoration from all that you've experienced that was wrong.
I also want to comment on something you said above in your story as it brought a flashback in my mind. You said, "I am curvy, and he loved my breasts. He gave me cash and told me to buy bras that pushed me up more; he wanted me to always wear them when I was around him. He never wanted me to show him, though. He just liked to touch over the clothing."
I remember being at an Anger Resolution Seminar some years ago. A personal friend and well known lady in our community was also in attendance. Like Bill typically does, he made a time during the break for people to come up to him and ask questions, etc. I remember my friend coming back from talking with Bill and being vividly shaken. She proceeded to tell me how uncomfortable she had felt the whole time she was talking with Bill. She told me that she was positive that he was staring at her breast the whole time. Not long after she and her family left ATI and so did mine. Thank God.
As an ATI parent from 1988 to 1999, I am so thankful now that God used a lack of financial resources to get us out of the program before my younger sons and daughters would have been able to serve in the apprenticeship program.
The last several weeks of reading Meg's story and now Charlotte's have been gut-wrenching to say the least. This along with the other stories of inappropriate gestures towards other young ladies on this website makes me want to wretch.
I totally believe the events of this story and every other story that this happened. HOWEVER, the very idea that BG knew of the father's abuse and not reporting it to the authorities is a criminal offense! As a minister, if I had that information then I am bound by law to report it. If I don't I can become accessory to the crime. Shame on BG for doing that! Shame on the board members and family members who continued to sweep these matters under the rug! Everyone of you should be held liable of criminal charges!
Thank you Charlotte, Meg and others for opening up these horrible wounds and sharing this information. Thank you RG for creating this forum for sharing this information to the public. My prayers are with you in your endeavors to seek true repentance, forgiveness and restoration from BG!
"Shame on BG for doing that! Shame on the board members and family members who continued to sweep these matters under the rug! Everyone of you should be held liable of criminal charges!"
It is amazing how many enablers there have been over the years.
I would like to respond to all who are commenting and are of the opinion that posting all these articles on RG is not the right method and that a meeting should be had with Mr. G. I would also like to start it with the fact that I am sitting here typing without being all emotionally charged up on this. Of course, I am having to take a step back and separate my emotions from this because there is no way that I could be reading these articles and not be heart broken for the victims. That all being said, here I go.
For one, there have been meetings and they have done no good. One of the problems is that Mr. G is a master manipulator, as has been proven from many others’ stories and he is not repentant. In that light a meeting would be absolutely useless. I come from an abusive household where my parents were also master manipulators. My siblings and I constantly tried to follow the Biblical approach as we entered adulthood to make them aware of what they had done and praying that we would see true repentance from them because we have all been willing to move forward with them if we saw that they were actually ready to admit that they did abuse us and that it wasn’t our fault and they were sorry. All of our one-on-one meetings never amounted to anything except us coming away further wounded emotionally. We finally moved past that and after my dad said again that he and mom wanted to meet with us to “reconcile” we got together a small group of deacons and the pastor from my sister’s church and said that we would only meet with them if they were willing to meet with us and the church staff. As it turned out, my parents were really just trying to figure out who all was supporting me and my siblings emotionally and Spiritually and pretty much sizing up what they were up against. My dad verbally and emotionally attacked us in that meeting and since then have used that meeting to falsely gain sympathy from those that still chose to agree with and support them. Mom and dad tell everyone that that meeting was tainted and that there were just a bunch of people lined up to attack them. Just for clarification, the only talking done in that meeting besides my dad was by myself, my sister and my husband other then the opening prayer said by the pastor. We did not attack them in any way as we really did want to reconcile with them. I could go into more detail but it would only be to further defend myself which I don’t care to do. I mention my family situation to say this, if Mr. G was really and truly repentant then he would have been more then happy to answer all the questions that the folks at RG asked him. If he had really and truly been brought to devastation by his own behavior, then he would say or do anything anyone asked of him (within reason, which RG’s requests were very reasonable) to make sure that everyone knew he was repentant. For the lack of that demonstration alone, I have assumed that he only wanted that meeting so that he could know the names and faces behind this website and so that he could try everything to learn the identities of some of the people in the articles so that he could try to further manipulate and bully people into silence. If we were only talking about a couple of incidents then maybe it would be good to still try a meeting, however we are talking about over 40 years of this pattern and behavior. Also, to those who want to fight this, if it were your daughter/sister/other close relation would you still be alright with public silence after all this time? I also fail to grasp how anyone could think of defending this man after all the incriminating, sickening and heartbreaking evidence to come out against him. I also agree with another comment stating that if you were not raised in a cult, then you really do not have the right or grounds to tell those of us that have, how to handle a situation like this. Yes, I was raised in this cult. My parents joined when I was only about 2 and they were in it years after I graduated high school. Yes, Mr. G learned of the abuse we received from our parents and did nothing to address it . I have a story and it’s a long one and it has been published on Homeschoolers Anonymous, so I’m not speaking blindly. Above all however, if you still have a big issue with the way that RG is handling this, then please email them privately to do so. Commenting on this or any other victim story could really only serve to hurt the victim more. If your issue is with RG please take it to RG.
Thanks for sharing this, Erika. I want to add something that "Charlotte" brought up in the story that speaks to BG's manipulation: The unimaginable statement he made to her that she was the cause, not only of a young man's lusting after her, but even of her father's abuse.(!!!) To us now this seems incredible, but for those of us from the inside, we recognize BG's ways of turning the victim into the guilty party - piling guilt on top of guilt. I think this is why the RG team took pains to ascertain BG's intentions before meeting with him and finally why they decided not to meet. We who have been/are on the inside of ATI/IBLP know how he operates. Besides, I'm not sure "reconciliation" is even the desired outcome here so much as his admission of guilt. "I'm sorry that some people had a bad experience" somehow just doesn't cut it at this point.
That's the thing. I don't believe this man will ever admit guilt. Even if he did so privately, he would say this was a past incident, it is being blown out of proportion or she is lying. He will say that he is being falsely accused like Jesus was. Those who want to believe him will believe him. So with that in mind, I don't believe a legal route will work. But I do believe that people choose and make decisions. We never felt we were being controlled by this ministry and yet, by agreeing to the rules, we were being controlled. The rules implied that we were a part of something when in reality, we were not a part because we didn't have a voice in the decision making process. If we didn't like Bill's rules, we could leave. To a certain extent, I thought that was fine. But even people like Michael Pearl, the Ezzos, the Voellers, were telling us the most righteous way to raise our children according to "God's way." In this way, they were being used of the enemy to raise our children from the sidelines. A real turning point for me was reading the book In My Father's House by Corrie ten Boom. She and her brothers and sisters overcame by the blood of the Lamb, word of their testimony, and not loving their lives to the death. What a success story. And I bout fainted when I saw that those children were never spanked. The said thing is that the Duggars are still at it. Do you think the Duggars believe these stories? I doubt it. I am interested in one thing and one thing only = to see the young people who have come out of this ministry to repent and believe. I want them to know Him and the power of His resurrection in their lives and that is all I care about. I would love to help tear down on the false doctrine but it is like pulling teeth trying to. -sigh- Oh, and this is Vera Berry, wife of Douglas Berry in case nobody knew. I could care less whether Bill has my name on any list. I am shaking in my boots. (not).
Charlotte,
Thank you so much for having the courage to share your story. I am so sorry that you were treated this way by your father and Bill Gothard. No child should ever have to endure such things. Your courage will certainly help to see that he does this to no other victims.
I'm filled with sorrow and anger at the same time. God bless you and your family.
To all:
This man must be stopped from abusing anyone else.
Get this story out there.
Post it on Facebook.
Email a link to your pastor and elders.
Contact your local homeschool association and inform them. If they have a link on their website to ATI/IBLP, as many do, insist that they remove the link.
Contact CHEA and other homeschool conventions and make them aware of this sexual predator and demand that they not give him space at their next convention.
If you have any ATI or ex ATI friends, send them the link. There are probably a lot more abuse victims out there who have not come forward yet. If there is one or more that are recent and not beyond the statute of limitations, so that he can be prosecuted.
Recovering Grace,
Thank you so much for your work in exposing Gothard's predatory abuse, so that other potential victims can be saved. Even if the statute of limitations has expired, I pray that you have still notified the local law enforcement officials.
I have reached out on Facebook to my former pastor (the one in who's church where I was first introduced to IBLP). I do not know if he will accept my friend request (it has been nearly 20 years since I left that church, I left on good terms though it was partially due to IBLP, namely that the church was appearing to be hopelessly divided between the ATI families and everyone else, and I'd already been through two church splits in my lifetime), but if he does I will share this site with him.
I have another pastor friend who was also influenced by IBLP, he may or may not have a Facebook page but I will check and, if so, try to reach out to him too.
I just read Charlotte's story and although sickening, it matches up with Bill's philosophies and his brother's past conduct. How very very sad.
I think this is the kind of nonsensical "logic" that drives Jonalyn to defend women (soulation.org) a
as the blame being put on Charlotte is beyond ridiculous! If you will forgive my crudeness its like saying its men's fault that they have a sexual organ that causes women to desire intercourse from them. HALLOOO? So twisted!
Good work my dear. Sad and difficult but GOOD work for standing for what is truly righteous.
Is this story horrible enough for the defenders of Bill Gothard to finally question him? How bad does it have to get before they will admit that Bill Gothard is not a godly man who made a "few mistakes" in his life. What he did to Charlotte wasn't a simple mistake. It was blaming her for being abused and then abusing her himself.
Charlotte, you are so brave to come out with this story. I am so sorry you had to endure this from this wolf in sheep's clothing. To think that I used to admire him so much.
For all of Gothard's crimes, he needs to be criminally charged in the court's justice system and not allowed to hide behind the Institute and their findings. I say, the sooner the better and can only hope that this will finally happen. Who will come forward? Perhaps a class action type of filing will be the best and strongest advocate for this rapist of hearts, minds, and Basic Trust. Hmmm, maybe The Institute of Raping Youth's Trust is more than fitting, here.
It's a cult. They aren't going to believe the stories. That is why it is good to tell the truth about these things, but in the end, this whole thing has to get back to his false teachings.
Where are the former board members that have been dismissed for confronting Bill Gothard? Why are none of them speaking out? Why haven't they continued to confront him? Why didn't they speak the truth sooner?
Some resigned, some are dead, some are just too old, some are tired of the fight, other were just blinded and probably other might have similar sins in their lives, but the battle has been raging behinds the scene for the past 34 years. RG has provided a place and gained a voice to combine the efforts of what the younger ATIers and 1980 ex-staff and have experienced. Repentance and truth in what we seek. Thank you RG for your for all your hard work and for Meg, Charlotte and others who have shared their heart wrenching stories.
Larne Gabriel
Gothard's pilot 1979-80
Well said.
Larne,
It would be a privilege to have coffee or lunch with you sometime!!
Thanks!
Don't know this for a fact, but maybe employees are required to sign a Confidentiality Agreement -- they are bound by law if they sign not to talk after they are gone.
I don't think a Confidentiality Agreement that would require someone to keep silent about criminal activity would hold up in a court of law.
I worked at HQ for 3 years and have many friends who also did and I never heard of any such thing.
This is truly heart wrenching. The silence must be broken! Bill Gothard is without excuse. If anyone reading this story cannot see the obvious abuse and molestation of a minor, they are blind.
My husband and I worked as resident coordinators for a community center ministry through a housing foundation for several years. We received training on how to help residents(particularly children) who had experienced sexual abuse.
It was made clear in the training that any type of touch or behavior that makes you feel "uncomfortable" should be reported to a trusted adult and not tolerated. No one should be allowed to touch any area of your body that a bathing suit would cover, without permission. This was training from a secular organization.
If secular organizations have these guidelines, why in Heaven's name can a "Christian" organization think they are exempt??? This truly makes my blood boil.
Any one who continues to defend BG because it could "do damage to the cause of Christ" is forgetting that Christ came to bring liberty to captives and bind up the broken hearted, to give sight to the blind. He came for the broken, the victims, the defenseless, those without a voice. If we claim to follow Christ, we must break the silence and bring abuse to light. Christ is perfectly able to defend His own reputation. False teacher's like Bill Gothard need to be exposed or the abuse will continue.
Shelly, your last paragraph especially is so well said. Couldn't agree more.
Ditto!
Because of a posting by a friend on fb, I read an article and pursued it to this site, knowing absolutely nothing about ATI/IBLP beforehand. I respond to you Shelly because I couldn't agree more. Especially your statement about obvious guidelines for children and young people to follow to guard against inappropriate touching (which amounts to sexual harrassment, molestation and can easily lead to sexual abuse). If these guidelines were made important, constant and promoted in "Christian" organizations that would likely be very helpful. Simple common sense teaching of children to not allow any adult to touch private parts; and that they have a God given right to the boundaries of their own bodies would have been helpful in the Catholic church for instance. However,the problem is this: in a "Christian" organization, group, community or whatever it is, those taking part leading or following do not see their sins as predator/abusers, or in the case of victims, they do not see their vulnerabilites and insecurities as followers. There is an underlying complicit blindness that allows the thing to go on, and the secrets to remain in place for years. So, I remembered here Jesus statement from John 9:41
""Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."" NASB Now I think he is explaining something most profound for all; predators and victims alike. For without the complicit blindness of the many many victims and those crowd of witnesses involved in the religion, or "group", or community etc, the crime (sin) cannot continue; and without the real blindness of the predator(s) the crime (sin) cannot go on either. If the predator(s) were to truly "see" they would repent. If the victims in the group, (whether direct or indirect victims all are being hurt) were to really see what is being done to themselves and others they would bring it to light. Either way healing could become rampant because the whole house of secrets would collapse in the light. This seeing is a gift from God, but one He so dearly wants to give us. I believe Jesus came to show us the Father's heart and character and He said it, if we simply will admit that we are blind, our guilt, our sin will be removed and we will see the truth and we can be free. It sounds too simple, but God's message is really so simple, that's how we miss it in our blindness. I am trying to say that it takes much more that one BG for this tragedy to go on. It takes all those who still have not been honest and not come forward, all who do not want to admit blindness, for this sickness to remain. And God bless all who have had the courage to speak up.
Before I go further, let me say that I specially commend, pray for, and bless Charlotte for her great great bravery of heart, and tell you how very much God loves you and assure you that he is not like those in your life who have betrayed you and manipulated and abused you and given you cause for any guilt or shame. Also do not let anyone put guilt or shame on you if you are mad at God at this point for what has happened to you, from your father, from BG or from anyone. God surely understands this, He felt every hurt, every tear, every wound, just as much as He did his own son's as Jesus walked this earth. God will be the first one to bind up your wounds and remove any guilt or shame you may feel. He has only love and tenderness for you and He has heard every cry of your heart.
Also I commend what I have seen so far on this site and for all others who've been courageous and willing to come into the light and be honest about what they know. This must happen, not for hurt, but for the bringing down of a house of cards built on lies and secrets that cannot help but bring more destruction and pain if it remains as it is.
Now I am saying this from firsthand experience, from many years ago, from a "Christian" community and shelter that I was a big part of. Being a single mother of two precious sons, I built our lives around the leader, respected his anointing without question, considered him my best friend and my children's substitute father, suspected no cult similarities in our group at all. We all did many many good works, we loved and worshiped God and studied the scriptures. I thought it was all good. Many many years later it came to light {because of the courage of one of our members who was having flashbacks and asked a lot of questions at the right time and place) that my sons and other young women in our group were being sexually harrassed, abused and manipulated by our leader. He had a terrible sickness that we were blinded to for so very long. It was like a terrible terrible death and unbelievable pain and guilt in coming to terms with my blindness, my childrens horrific and unspoken pain and betrayal and many others who were also betrayed and hurt. Today God has forgiven me and brought about so much healing and forgiveness in so many of us. Our community was already no longer living and working together when this came to light. And our leader had already left the country.
So, I strongly encourage those still deeply involved in this organization in question ATI/IBLP to wake up and see and speak up, out of love, and you will be part of bringing about freedom and healing for more people than you can ever imagine. You will also have the possibilty of "seeing" for the first time that you have the opportunity and responsibility to have your own direct very personal relationship with God by seeking him deeply from your heart and relying on His leading and being with you personally. He sent His son to teach us that He is Emmanuel, "God with us", and that He is for each of us.
Media is the way to go. There should be an advanced Twitter and social campaign to expose these behaviors, make fun of HIM and his ridiculous beliefs (my parents got a call saying that Mr. Gothard thought I had great beauty and potential to work with him personally if I'd lose a little weight! thank god I didn't). I'd be happy to help with this, RG folks.
And Charlotte, did we meet, I wonder? Bless you. Dealing with my own PTSD from similar issues.
I am shocked that everyone is still talking about meeting with BG. This is illegal what he has done and it should be taken to the law. Laws are in place for protection against this type of abuse. Is there anyone willing to come forward who is still within the time that the Statute of Limitations has not run out?
Yeah why are we trying to figure out the perfect biblical approach to something that is illegal? This has nothing to do with the church, or spirituality, or anything else. It needs to be taken to the law and find out what can be done. If nothing, than we need to continue to encourage more victims to speak out in hopes that we find something serious, with some sort of corroborating evidence and within the statute of limitations. Can we please focus on that instead of, "Well, first we need to confront him Matthew style..." what? What a waste of time. He needs to be locked up asap.
What it does, Joe, is stop those who are giving money to continue to give and hopefully stop people from joining in the future. After our son was ruined by this ministry, Doug said he would never send a child to a TC again. I do have a story where we actually saw our son abused in 2007. We were falsely accused of being the problem. Remember one of Bill's judgments was that if a child starts sinning, it's because of the parents. Wrong again. Romans 1:18-21
Charlotte -
Dear sister, I am so sorry to hear about this evil that befell you both at home and at the hands of BG. It raises a feeling of righteous anger within me and solidifies my desire to see justice brought against this man. Please know, you are NOT alone in what you went through at home, it seems that ATI homes were just as liable to have evil done behind closed doors as any other group. I know, I got to see it for myself. It does not help any that the victims are blamed for what happened to them. I can not say strongly enough just how WRONG that line of reasoning is. Thank you for bravely sharing your story. Blessings to you and your family.
Charlotte,
I am so sad for you that you had to go through that experience. I can see very clearly how it happened. Seems to be typical sexual predator behavior from BG and your parents. I hope this is part of your healing process. His life and lifestyle is unnatural. I would be shocked if this hasn't been his mode of operation from a young age. Scary and sickening man.
I had to deal with the adults in my life who didn't know better than to follow him and BG for not being smarter to know that his teachings were BS. His teachings were the least of his transgressions.
I am glad you have found your voice. Personal, spiritual and inner freedom is a journey. You are well on your way.
Ryan
"You know sin is like a boomerang, there's never any doubt . . . " BG should have attended more Children's Seminars
Dear Charlotte, (but I know your real name)
I wept as I read your account. I *knew* you and we lived in the same house for a short time, but I had NO IDEA of the horrible things that had happened to you at the hands of so-called Christians and authority figures. I COMPLETELY believe everything you wrote as it matches up with everything I knew and remember at the time too. We were both very young and I was just coming and was somehow one of Mr. G's new "favorites" (although he didn't cross the extremes to me as he did to you - but I experienced at least 75% of what the 6-part secretary story stated as well) and you were just leaving amidst much rumor and gossip. Mr. Gothard even warned me not to get close to you or talk to you much since you had "issues" and could not be trusted. I have no words to express how angry and sad I am for you and all that you went through. I know you reached out to me for friendship, but I offered you very little - instead gave you further isolation and scorn. Please forgive me. I totally understand why you left the faith for awhile, but i'm so glad Jesus is becoming real to you now and not a twisted, perverted picture that was represented by your father and Mr. Gothard. RG has my email if you ever want to get in touch... Rachel (Glader) Frost.
RG should add you and your story to their list of witnesses for Charlotte.
Remember Rachel when I was dropped into your house and roomed with you for a week? Mr. G saw me at Indy that morning looking lonely. He invited me up to headquarters and with in an hour I was packed and headed back up to HQ with him. And I stayed that week in your room. I was moved around from job to job but eventually landed in the staff kitchen right below Mr G's office. Being that close to his office we saw his favorites, his encouragement cases and his early mornings and late nights in his offices. If you worked at HQ you knew he had his favorites, if you worked in the kitchen under his office you saw it first hand.
I cannot even find words to describe the evil of using a girl who was already a victim of sexual abuse like this and using her trauma for his pleasure. This is disgusting.
Charlotte, I'm so sorry you had to suffer at the hands of men who wrongly claimed to be holy.
"Charlotte", I pray that THIS DAY your spirit would be flooded with peace, and that you would feel the fatherly love of the God who heals. Thank you for writing this, for speaking the truth that will set free. You deserve to be heard after so many years.
Honest questions here:
1) In your investigation, did you confirm from former churches of the father's alleged misconduct?
2) Did you give the mother a hearing?
3) Did you question the brother?
Too bad the father is dead, and unable to question.
Again...honest, seeking questions.
Annie,
Do you know anything about Bill Gothard or is this the first time you have heard of him. I'm not with RG, but I've been reading and am wondering if you know his MO?
Annie, I think your questions are very wise! I also have a few points I would like to bring up.
1) Meg's story as well as the other girls are all consistent. They are his "style." This one does not sound like him to me.
2)Why would the board tell her she was lying when they have confronted him on MANY occasions for hugging girls??
3)By no means am I saying this account is untrue, however, it did seem odd to me that EVERY person tells her she is lying all the time. Why was no one helping her? Did she lie often?
Now, before you all jump up and slice my throat, know that all I am saying is take Annie's advice! Search this out better. In the end, you don't want to be the one looking like idiots -do your research and be prepared if this is a battle you are going to fight.
Well, to Annie and Krystal... I like the assumption that RG did not spend EIGHT MONTHS researching this story in whatever way possible, before prayerfully releasing it.
Nice.
And Krystal, if you don't know why EVERYONE around her told her she was lying, try reading up on cults and how they blame and shame the victim. There are plenty of examples on this very website. But don't take RG's word for it... read up on cults in general. Of course no one in the cult will believe an accusation brought against their godlike-leader.
Faith Shirley. Runaway in the state of Illinois. Also a runaway while in the state of FL. ATI-affiliated family. Sixteen years old. Why is she constantly running away? What is going on with her? Isn't anyone looking into the background of that story?
Yes, that story is quite disconcerting. Especially in light of this.
Who is to say his behaviour isn't escalating and there just aren't as many stories from the girls affected by this escalation.
Maybe they told her she was lying for the same reason that you are telling her she is lying. Just because you don't want to believe her. You don't know her or if she has a history of being a liar, so what causes YOU to call her a liar? Oh, and saying "by no means am I saying this account is untrue" and then turning right around and saying "But it just seems odd" and questioning her and implying that she likely has a history of being a liar...that is the same thing as calling her a liar. So don't pat yourself on the back too much for your supposed kindness and "support" of victims of abuse.
Annie, as good as your intentions may (or may not) be, please just be quiet. This is not the place for your feeble musings.
The Charlotte story illustrates how far he would go if he could. That is what grooming is all about. Aside from that, I hope everyone on this site realizes that despite the value of sharing these stories, none of this is going to change a thing. Bill knows how to disarm his critics -- offer reconciliation without real repentance -- and make it look as if they are in the wrong because they won't, "forgive," him. Then just continue on with all of the false teaching. The issue here is his FALSE TEACHING. If Recovering Grace forgets this, this entire thing will end up looking like a witch hunt and slander against Bill, and it will no longer matter what he has done to young women. He can easily escape blame for events behind closed doors. He cannot deny what he has taught for 40 years.
Good point David. The sexual abuse simply shows the character of Bill Gothard, but even if he resigns, we still need to warn of the false teaching he has promoted. As a pastor I have been able to see how his teaching can end up dividing a church. You end up with some people following the scripture and others following Gothard and the two do not agree. You end up with Gothard followers having bitterness toward the pastor if he teaches the Bible and not what Gothard says.
I had a very close and wealthy friend. In 1980 she was a Bill Gothard devotee, and put IBLP in her will -- SIX figures. During the 1980's two things happened -- she was diagnosed with lupus, and she began to see the Truth about Gothardism. I personally know that she came to absolutely detest it. However, due to her continued illness, she was only half way through changing her will when she died. She was trying to get the money changed to her sister. Guess what position was taken by IBLP? They are fighting this in court. They want the money, despite evidence that she was changing the will. The chances are, they will lose. I personally know the executor of her will -- all of this is documented FACT. But even if they lose -- THIS is what the do. This is what you are dealing with in Bill Gothard and friends. You cannot appeal to them on the basis of Christ.
As most of you know, Bill teaches that there is never a possibility of remarriage after divorce -- no matter what the reason for the divorce. I had a very close friend, who, at 27 years old, had her husband leave her and her two small boys for two male lovers. Incredibly, because they were into IBLP, she tried to reconcile him by asking him to attend the Basic Seminar. It did not work. Over the course of 4 years, he sunk further into his new life. They divorced. My friend wrote Bill a letter telling her story because she wanted to understand how she was sentenced to be single forever. He did not answer. She wrote again. No answer. I believe that divorce is permissible by God in cases of adultery and desertion. As a pastor that is what I counsel and firmly believe. But even though Bill disagrees, if he is going to teach such things, he needs to answer, or get someone to answer for his teachings. I know of at least 10 women whose husbands have both cheated on them and deserted them for other women who stayed single for the rest of their lives because they were put under this law. This girl finally saw the truth and ten years after her divorce did remarry. She has a wonderful marriage today.
David this is about false teaching, true. But you will never win that argument either or at least only with people who already agree with you. This is also about abuse; spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse. The "fog of war" surrounding this type of abuse makes telling these stories extremely important. This is also about recovery for the abused.
It is the false teaching, especially on authority, that makes all of the abuse possible. Tell the stories, but remember WHY Bill has his power -- it is his heresy. And just for the record, I'm not interested in winning any argument.
"It is the false teaching, especially on authority, that makes all of the abuse possible."
This is so true! It all comes back to the false teaching on authority. None of them dared to question Bill, their authority, who was placed there by God. No bad reports can ever be given about a person in authority over you.
What I wonder is which came first? Did the false teaching lead to this? Or did Gothard design a false religion with the express purpose of establishing this environment? An environment in which his followers would offer up their daughters, that he could abuse, without being challenged or questioned.
The sexual abuse by Bill Gothard is one more case in the pattern of sexual abuse among conservative Christian groups that God has been revealing recently. What these ladies have shared about Gothard fit the profile of other conservative "Christian" sexual predators. The last several years I have been researching the sexual abuse problem that is occurring among Amish and conservative Mennonites. A year ago I thought I was finished writing a book on the subject titled The Failure of the Great Amish and Conservative Mennonite Dress Experiment. The book has since tripled in size as God has been showing me more and more things. I have written an article that gives a little peek at the pattern of sexual abuse that is occurring among conservative Christian groups, including Gothard, and the profile of sexual predators. It is titled Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, and the Bigger Picture. http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/doug-phillips-vision-forum.php
I pasted your URL into my browser and read the bulk of your page, but I'm not sure how much credence I can give your statements. You said, "The Baptists hold to the carnal manmade doctrine of eternal security for the person once they make a profession for Christ. They believe that once a person becomes a Christian, they cannot lose their salvation and go to hell."
Since this only applies to some branches of Baptists I wonder at how well researched the rest of your assertions are. This broad-brush condemnation of Baptists in general is further compounded when you imply strongly that a church offering free child care for young parents to have a "Date Night" is likely doing so for the express purpose of molesting children. Had you kept your statements to facts and statistics you would have been more believable, but your ignorance of differing branches of Baptists and wholesale branding of them as child molesters in the main leads me to wonder why you have a deep-seated loathing of Baptists that clouds your judgement. While I didn't see the same bias against Amish, Mennonite or other groups, I wonder if your objectivity isn't clouded there as well.
I've dealt with sexual predators in the church and it should be taken very seriously and predators should be held accountable for their actions and if those actions involve a child, the authorities should be notified and not treated as an internal matter only. However, you are casting a very wide net in your commentary that condemns all Baptists. The fact that you would never allow your children to be cared for by Baptists left me dumbfounded. In a program such as the one you slighted, there are likely multiple women (and perhaps some men) watching those children and the arrangement would not be conducive to the type of sexual exploitation you greatly fear. I'm not saying that parents should not exercise caution, but being Baptist doesn't seem like strong enough evidence for the things you're saying.
Thanks for your comments. I will make changes to more accurately communicate what I intended to say.
First of all, if this is true, this is a game changer. For me. However . . . and you know this is coming . . . I am most interested in any kind of corroboration. I would, for example, love to hear from her remaining parent, if she would back up the account of what she says here with what they did not believe back in 1992.
Part of the reason for saying this: I have good authority to conclude that substance of "Rachel's Story" in the Don Veinot book (pages 206-210) - at least the Orwellian abuse - is fabricated. I was interested that the cited website was summarily gone when I started looking . . . and I found a detailed account from a former roommate questioning incredulously the details posted (which stunningly is still up: http://kendra145.tripod.com/ ). She allegedly became a member of the anti-Gothard list I was on, never spoke up. I was there asking for any corroborating details, got . . . nothing, nothing from her or 600 other unhappy members. That was after I went to Don Veinot directly . . . who said that the documents were in storage - he sent me on to the list. Then I found a small little page from the website WISHTV in Indianapolis that announced - quietly - that the authorities, after investigating allegations of abuse at the ITC found the charges to be "unsubstantiated", and closed the file. That, of course, never made it into the book. This after the investigation effectively killed the ministry with troubled youth (WISHTV has since let the news story lapse . . . another site had it up for years, that too appears to be gone, so all I have is my printout)
That detailed first person account was also a "game changer". But it was a lie. I do not know Charlotte and I know that victims of sexual abuse are often not believed - that is the nature of the crime. But she can understand why it might be so very important to some of us, who have been staunch supporters of Mr. Gothard, to gain the understanding that this is genuine. Contrary to what most would believe, I would never follow Mr. Gothard down a road where I was convinced there was real abuse. I am loyal to Jesus alone, when push comes to shove.
But . . . "Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." (1 Timothy 5:19) If what she is saying is true - the fondling of the breasts and all, she will not be the only one. So far, after 40 years, she is the first to make that accusation. I assure you it will be treated with the utmost of seriousness.
I assume no-one would want to . . . but anyone who would want to communicate with me in private can get to my private email through the link that is my name.
We can only hope more victims will come forward, if they are out there.
But one is enough.
Alfred, Shame on you again. From someone old enough to be your mother.
Alfred-Who's the elder here? Under what ecclesial authority? To what church would two or three bring their complaint? Who is responsible for whether his teaching is in accord with the good deposit handed down? What body do we ask why it's ok for him to play footsie (which you seem to agree he's done, but it's not a game changer) with women in his employ? Who do we ask why he should remain in ministry having been at minimum inappropriate in his interactions? It's clear that one theme in all of these stories and responses is where would one go to bring a complaint against the machine that is BG.
Oh and...1 Tim 5.19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except don the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
"Game-changer" Alfred?!?! This is a game to you? Of course it is. .. for shame!
I don't think he views it as a game... it's just a turn of phrase. But there are other phrases one could use.
This is in reply to Alfred:
> "I would, for example, love to hear from her remaining parent, if she would back up the account of what she says here"
Alfred, you are not willing to accept the word of Charlotte, Ryan, Dixie and the entire staff of Recovering Grace AND their advisors. Why would hearing from the parent make any difference to you? If the input from the parent had been part of the original post, you would still be calling for more corroboration. True or false?
> "Then I found a small little page from the website WISHTV in Indianapolis that announced - quietly - that the authorities, after investigating allegations of abuse at the ITC found the charges to be "unsubstantiated", and closed the file."
Stop trying to paint it all as a conspiracy theory. Announcing it quietly??? I don't think so. It was a local news story, it's ridiculous to Insinuate that the story was swept under the rug. The story is all over the net if you look for it:
- https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=indianapolis%20training%20center%20abuse
> "That, of course, never made it into the book. This after the investigation effectively killed the ministry with troubled youth (WISHTV has since let the news story lapse . . . another site had it up for years, that too appears to be gone, so all I have is my printout)"
You mean these stories? They are still here, and still available... lots of good information here. No one is hiding this information.
- http://www.yuricareport.com/Ohio/GothardJuvenileCtrInvestigated.html
- http://culteducation.com/oldserverbackups/www/web/group/954-bill-gothard/9073-city-council-debates-indianapolis-training-centers-future.html
And look here, I was able to find a copy of the original story:
- https://web.archive.org/web/20060619222444/http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=793028
By the way I don't appreciate that you are now insinuating that Midwest Christian Outreach was at fault for the closure of the troubled youth program. Not cool.
> "That detailed first person account was also a "game changer". But it was a lie."
Still trying to insinuate Charlotte's story is a lie. Just come out and say it. You don't believe Charlotte's story.
> "And so I do not know Charlotte and I know that victims of sexual abuse are often not believed - that is the nature of the crime."
No that is NOT the nature of the crime. That's the nature of our culture which places the blame on the woman.
> "Contrary to what most would believe, I would never follow Mr. Gothard down a road where I was convinced there was real abuse."
So everything up to this point has been faked? Not real? Not abuse? Why?
> "I am loyal to Jesus alone, when push comes to shove."
But only when push comes to shove... until then you are loyal to more than just Jesus? This makes no sense.
So Prove the Loyalty. Walk away from Gothard right now! There is NOTHING that is more important than your Bible, and your relationship with our Father.
> "If what she is saying is true - the fondling of the breasts and all, she will not be the only one. So far, after 40 years, she is the first to make that accusation."
Your limited knowledge of Gothard's personal life is the final word on the topic? How do you know she is the first one?? You can't be serious. Are you serious?
> "I assure you it will be treated with the utmost of seriousness."
Come on dude... It WILL be treated? Will Be?? Sadly, someday never comes. The future is always tomorrow. I know you mean well, but your words have no meaning when you say things like this.
If this truly was as important to you as you say... you should be treating this NOW with the utmost of seriousness. At the moment, you clearly do not believe Charlotte and are not taking her story seriously.
Are you still not going to admit anything is wrong until there is unequivocal proof of penetration??? At what point are you going to make a full break with Gothard? What is it going to take?
I am saying that "Rachel's Story" in the book is a lie. Despite everything you posted. Did you know that? I come to conclude that nobody here ever went back to validate . . . Just took Rachel and Veinot's word on it.
Details matter. A man who fondles a woman and asks her to keep it quiet is a vastly different man than one that wrestles with feelings but has enough character to never cross key lines.
In the end, if Charlotte's story holds up, I know what I need to do. May The Lord make it plain. But . . . I spent months on Rachel's account to discover that no one, not even Veinot, had figured out it wasn't true. And the fact that I say this in public, as I have often, allows anyone with information to the contrary to correct me,
BTW, you sort of made my point. WISHTV's account of the accusations is still there . . . Can you think of a reason the "retraction" sort of disappeared? Same website. I can't think of any good ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Alfred said:
Details matter. A man who fondles a woman and asks her to keep it quiet is a vastly different man than one that wrestles with feelings but has enough character to never cross key lines.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
There is no difference in one who acts and one who thinks about doing something but has "character" to "never cross key lines.
Matthew 5:28
I think you already know what you need to do.
Mat 24:3-5,10-11
Isa 30:9-11,15
Luke 6:26
Jer 23:30-32
I pray the Lord will open your eyes and heart and deliver you and your family.
Father with Daughters,
I don't think you intend it, but I think you are inadvertently suggesting that if someone has these thoughts, he might as well go ahead and act since it's all the same for *him*. But let's be clear; it's not the same to the would-be victim. Not acting really does matter to her.
I realize the point of your comment is regarding the heart of the man in question. Of course the biblical message is to avoid entertaining such thoughts in the first place, but in the context of this discussion, your point could be terribly misconstrued if not clarified.
>>>
Horse said:
I don't think you intend it, but I think you are inadvertently suggesting that if someone has these thoughts, he might as well go ahead and act since it's all the same for *him*. But let's be clear; it's not the same to the would-be victim. Not acting really does matter to her.
<<<
You are correct. I did not mean to come across as suggesting that someone should act on their thoughts if they are of this nature. I was merely trying to point out to Alfred above that thinking and acting are the same thing according to scripture.
I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.
Alfred,
I appreciate your comments, in as much as I believe you are loyal to Jesus alone, and that this being true really would turn the tide for you. I appreciate your admission of that, and frankly the tone of your comment.
I'm a former ATI student, so the perspective on this is different for me. I saw the things at the Training Center that the parents didnt see. Many of the former students here saw them. So it is far easier for us to believe.
But from your perspective, I would call out to the pattern. 40 years, Alfred. 40 years of Gothard's questionable behavior. Why is it questionable for 40 years? Granted, you also dont get the emails, or see the private messages on facebook. Where one story comes into an email box, and another comes in to a FB message, and the two girls are years apart, countries divided, and have never met, and they tell the exact same story. 40 years, over 35 girls...all the same story...
My friend, at what point does the scale tip, and it become harder to have faith that it is a lie than it is to have faith that it is true.
May God aid you in your journey for the Truth.
Thank, Philip. I have lived long enough to know that a mass - no a tidal wave - of bad information does not equal a conclusion. We accept the fact that there are many reasons for people to hate Mr. Gothard, unrelated to his alleged or actual moral failings. The fury against him knows no rational bounds, from where I sit.
So . . . when he can't - for whatever reasons - be taken down on doctrine or money or even practical abuse, one is left - as always - with the moral angle. The reasons for exposing Bill in this area are, for some, quite personal. But for many it is simple an opportunity to accomplish what could not be done otherwise.
I have never believed Bill incapable of doing bad things in secret, but it also struck me, in the last couple of months, there is a real danger that the release of all this 40 year long pent up energy here, all these calls for action, for stories . . . of a fabrication, small or large, to close the deal. They did it to Jesus, it has been done to many others.
With that danger in mind, I am going to take a bit of extra time before accepting everything as stated, given the grave implications. I am sure you can understand that a friend of Bill might do that.
"there are many reasons to hate Mr. Gothard, unrelated to his alleged or actual moral failings. The fury against him knows no rational bounds, from where I sit."
ok-- so if Mr. B is NOT guilty of any of the allegations presented on this website, that he never touched a woman immorally, or groomed underage girls, that his presentation and interpretation of scripture are correct and the steps he espouses on how to live a godly life are correct, then what is there to hate or hold against the man? Sounds like a great guy to me. He loves God, He desires to do God's work, he lives simply, he has given up many worldly desires...what reason in the world would anybody have to hate him?????????
AND If I ever get in trouble, for anything, real or imagined, I want Alfred on my side!
Alfred,
I'll not fault a friend for loyalty to a point, but only to a point. I have also lived long enough to know, and to see, high profile scandals and the damage they do to a ministry. However, I will respectfully not concede to your point about a mass of bad information. How many Scandals has Billy Graham walked away from completely unscathed? And not only walked away from but publicly recognized both in and outside the Christian community for his remarkable integrity. That man lived his message, he weathered the fire, came out clean, without lingering questions and doubts. Without a tidal-wave of unresolved questions, without mass-exodus of his staffers, without resignations and confessions. WITHOUT 40 years of questionable behavior. Billy Graham has been faithful, and I dont think many would argue.
We do not find the same from your friend and his ministry. I come back to 40 years of questionable behavior. Bill's integrity has not stood the test of time. Your earlier comments of Bill perhaps not have made the wisest choices with those he counsels, is evidence itself - knowing that over the last half-century many have tried to encourage his behavior to cease.
I'll also not concede that when all else fails, try the sex scandal angle. I'm certain you did not point that at Recovering Grace, or to these victims, but to many that's offensive, and not well articulated. There is no hate of Bill among the people that I work with. There is loathe of his actions, but that is understandable. If RG was as 'sensational' as many claim, this story would not have sat for 8 months running a course of due diligence. RG would not have reached out to Bill multiple times, as was done. It would have been published, and the popcorn buttered to watch the fallout.
So please be careful throwing around accusations of hate. The 'fury against him', to use your words, is not based from hate. It is a growing external pressure (see basic seminar teaching on greater and greater external pressure) to cease doing now what should have never been done, quit covering it up, and finally repent and reconcile with honesty, integrity, and transparency.
Alfred,
You wrote: "We accept the fact that there are many reasons for people to hate Mr. Gothard, unrelated to his alleged or actual moral failings. The fury against him knows no rational bounds, from where I sit."
I can only speak for myself on this: I have no hatred for Mr. Gothard. Anger and disappointment - yes. But not hatred. Perhaps I am in the minority. I attended numerous seminars, was a student in ATI, and have spent time at various training centers and overseas in Moscow. Over the years I came to disagree more and more with much of BG's teaching. And later, I realized more and more the damage this teaching had caused me - something only time, distance, and Bible study could have clarified.
But all that time I thought I was the only one - that others I had know were going on in the ministry. When I found RG and other groups online, I realized that there were hundreds who had come to the same conclusions as I had. We've all had our own paths, but we are all here to bear witness to the pain and struggle this ministry has done to such a large portion of the body of Christ. I, for one, had no idea of the sexual harassment going on. I don't think I would have believed it when I was on the "inside."
You are right to be cautious in believing every story out there. Charlotte's story especially is a serious accusation. But Satan can work from within as well as from without.
And just so you know, there are those (possibly mostly silent) readers of this website that do not have hatred in their hearts for BG. I am grieved to see someone who names the name of Christ accused of these things, but would it not be worse to have known about them and to have said and done nothing?
Sorry - sort of rambling here!
Thanks, Susanna, Philip, and as always, Esbee. If you have stuck your neck out as often as I have to wade into the thick of the Gothard controversies, you would retract your hatred statements. There is no other way to describe the animosity. I am a bruised and bloodied man. All without declaring what basis for that hatred might have some substance.
Alfred,
The "animosity," as you put it, that you see on display here is the result of decades of abuse under Gothard and IBLP that has left countless people bruised, bloodied, and weary. Why aren't you sticking your neck out for them?
Alfred, I hate that my family members took Bill Gothard's unwise council. I hate the pain that unwise council has caused their families. I hate that there are so many others who have suffered from Mr. Gothard's teachings. But to hate Mr. Gothard is not a sin I wish to commit. I pray that his eyes will be opened to the consequences of how adding the Law back in to God's method of sanctification has created so much brokenness. He couldn't hold to his own standards how did he ever expect others too? Mr. Gothard will never know the freedom and joy of Grace until his eyes are opened.
The comments here do not make me think this man is hated at all. They help me understand the depth of the pain caused.
Why do you jump to blaming others of hate?
Alfred, uncomplimentary stories (or in IBLP-speak a "bad report" taken from the Scriptural account of "an evil report" when the 10 spies countered the word of the Lord to take Jericho) are not one and the same as "bad information." I believe the Scriptural teaching on this subject but reject the IBLP teaching. It is, to be quite frank, bogus, and I suspect it was rooted in ulterior motive.
It is fine, right, and noble if we take abuse for Christ's sake, but if we take it for our own failures, that's not commendable.
I don't place Bill Gothard in the category of Jesus because no man is righteous--no not one--not me, not you, not Bill Gothard. We must hear and accept the voice of the Holy Spirit.
We do NOT elevate man to the stature of God. When we do, God takes it upon Himself to write the last chapter.
And, there is plenty of time to come to conclusions. No rushing is necessary for judgement except to prevent continuation via extension.
One thing I would point out, Alfred, is the fact that these girls were willing to give their all to serve God through BG. If those things didn't happen those girls wouldnt have even considered levelling such horrendous accusations at the man of God they looked up to for so long. It just wouldn't have been an option. You have to ask yourself why there are so many people telling the same story or similar stories.
You talk about key lines. If you dont think that grooming in any shape or form, regardless of the status of who is doing it, is wrong then where are your morals?
Shame, shame, shame!!! Again Alfred? Do you see my finger pointed at you while saying it? Don't forget I'm old enough to be your mother.
I told you so. Here we have one of Bill's minions already saying that Jesus was falsely accused. Can I call it or what? :-)
Alfred,
I could give you the good, the bad and the ugly of having my children grow up in ATI. It wasn't all bad. I think in many ways Wisdom Searchers was used to dismantle this ridiculous idea of the Perfects. Unfortunately, Bill made sure that came to an end through more manipulation.
My husband switched gears many years ago when our daughter turned 13 and let go of the rigid standards and we started looking to being led of the Spirit. That was the best decision he ever made for our family. How dare Bill Gothard control our family with his ridiculous laundry list of standards. He had no right to make those demands of us as it was none of his business. He would tell people to yield up their reputation to God on the one hand and set all these rules for the sake of his reputation. .
My story of the abuse of my son through Bill lying about him, lying to us about what he intended to do for Michael, the horrible way we were treated through the staff at Eagle Mountain and the eventual way that Michael was rejected and sent home on a bus solidified Doug's resolve never to let one of our children near Bill again. That was the second best decision we made. Doug and I have been discussing RG and Christian, my son, said, "I have no feelings one way or the other toward Bill Gothard." That's because Christian was raised completely different than my first three children. We switched gears. Doug started preaching. His preaching was confrontational toward actual sin versus standards and Bill had no love for us. That is for sure. check out the above video.
Vera Berry! I do know you, or know who you are. You have been a great encouragement to many, to my wife.
I did not know your story . . . and I am deeply sorry for what you have gone through. You were one of the "power" families, a level we have never attained to . . . you have lived Bill Gothard at a depth I will never. I will listen to both ears to whatever you have to say.
I guess I feel like asking you point blank: Can you see the Bill Gothard you know doing what is alleged . . . reaching up her skirt, caressing her breasts, and then binding her to secrecy? I know you are angry with him, but I know enough of your character to believe you would answer objectively. I believe the "Meg" and "Lizzie" stories . . . I think they happened as indicated. I am having a much harder time reconciling this account with all I know and have witnessed over 40 years, that and a son on staff at HQ for 10 years.
One thing you would have to admit is that Bill Gothard is a Big Hypocrite!! Let's pretend for a minute that he didn't do the things Charlotte says he did. But all these girls are saying that he spent time alone with them. If any of these girls had spent time alone with a man other than Mr. Gothard, they would have been shamed and scolded and reprimanded in a group setting. But since it was Mr. Gothard, it was OK and justified. These girls would get scolded for just talking to another young man and yet Gothard could talk to them in private for hours and it was OK! Do you see the hypocrisy here? Or is Mr. Gothard such a "god" in your eyes that you just cant see it? Just for the record, I do believe Charlotte's story and Rachael's story and all the rest of them. They are brave young women for coming out and telling their stories. One of these young women I know personally and she is a wonderful young woman who wants to embrace truth. I hope you can get to a point of wanting to embrace truth instead of being intent on covering it up.
Alfred,
Quick observation.... who is to be the witnesses to Kendra's story. Kendra says Rachel is a liar but there is no verification to her story. Why do Rachel and Charlotte need to have cooberation for their story but Kendra is able to type a letter (from 2001) and we are supposed to believe it. How does this disprove the Veinot account?
Am I missing something?
If that is the same Kendra from ITC, she made my daughter's life a living hell. She is a liar of the worst kind and a total backstabbing minion. I wouldn't put any credence in a statement she made. She was completely a pawn of the ITC machine. Eileen said that the Gurgenys were the worst people she has ever met.
One of the families in Miami had a daughter that had a nervous breakdown. The family sent her to ITC with their older daughter. The leadership of ITC stated that she was faking it. Like they have any knowledge of mental breakdowns. Idiots. The older daughter turned her back on The Lord due to that false judgment. Bill was repeatedly made aware of the problems of both ITC and Eagle Mountain but continually refused to listen. ITC and Eagle Mountain were run by two of the most wicked families.
To Bill::
Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will NOT answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord : They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. (Proverbs 1:20-33 KJV)
We all need to take heed of this and listen when someone reproves us over real sin as Bill was reproved repeatedly. Amen? God loves us and woos us to Himself to repent and believe.
Vera, I knew Eileen during that time—I worked at HQ and we lived in the same building for awhile. I remember Eileen sharing her experiences after returning from ITC and I understood completely. I worked at ITC with Kendra and Gergenis years before. I was there when ITC was under suspicion of abuse back in 2001 and watched how the Gergenis handled it. I just want to say, please don't be too hard on Kendra. She went out of her way to encourage me and many others at a time when there weren't many people I felt I could trust. She spent years there working very hard and often under unbelievable amounts of stress with little thanks for all her efforts. Gergenis too were often under more pressure than any director should ever be under. It wasn't easy being working for them and I had to deal with my share of challenges under their leadership, but ultimately they'll answer to God and I'm stronger for the experience.
I went TO Don Veinot for verification. He had nothing to offer me. Instead he suggested that I go to the "Metochoi" Gothard list, the "Recovering Grace" of a generation ago. I posted an open appeal for verification, any 1st hand or verified accounts of abuse . . . opening mail, restraints, isolation . . . "Rachel" indicated she had to make outside arrangements to escape the dungeon. Not a single response, other than some general stuff, like others wondering.
Don sent me on to others with more information on other questions I had . . . why not "Rachel's Story"? And, now that I have posted this, I am sure SOMEONE with first hand knowledge of the case can straighten me out.
I have my version out there for 8 years . . . I sent a copy to Don, which he said he would forward to Ron Henzel. I posted it on Amazon . . . and on my website (http://www.corduan.com/book_review.html ). You tell me.
Alfred, I'll be honest with you. I find it just a tad creepy that you're actively seeking out details of sexually abused girls---alone, not with a team of people, including at least one sympathetic woman. If I had been a woman sexually abused by Gothard, reading through these articles and comments, and I saw how easily you dismiss the pain of abuse and question any statements as true, hoping against hope to give Gothard the benefit of the doubt, you would be the LAST person I would feel comfortable sharing the details of my life with. So when you complain that no one has come forward to give you details, the fact that they haven't given YOU details does not mean they don't exist. It could, however, mean they don't trust you as an unbiased sympathetic ear. The very fact that you seem eager to hear sexual abuse details and then casually dismiss it as "Oh--that's not so bad," instantly makes you an unsafe person for any woman who has been abused. Just wanted to give you a woman's perspective here...
"It could, however, mean they don't trust you as an unbiased sympathetic ear."
Alfred, unbiased? Say it ain't so.
" The very fact that you seem eager to hear sexual abuse details and then casually dismiss it as "Oh--that's not so bad," instantly makes you an unsafe person for any woman who has been abused"
My thoughts exactly Beverly.
Yes, Alfred, we know, it's one big giant conspiracy.
I have to agree with my wife's comments above, Alfred. You even say to Vera that you believe Lizzie's and Meg's stories. And yet those stories don't really seem to bother you—written off as a sort of grandfatherly affection. Why would a girl who has been scared into silence for years divulge the most shameful secrets of her life to someone who likely appears already-skeptical of the veracity of her story?
I do commend you, though, on seeking to 'get to the bottom of this' and it seems like you've been pursuing these matters for a while. Someone ELSE discovered the bigger story. Does this bother you? If so, why? If you have been so persistent in getting the full story, why are you so unwilling to believe the story when it's finally being told?
Before this spins completely out of control . . . "Rachel" is not a sexual abuse case. This is ITC, account of being a virtual prisoner, sort of Orwellian. Escaped the prison with the help of friends, in hiding, but with a published website to tell her story.
I am not interested in any details, other than to find the story - the sexual parts - true . . . or false. If Bill really has done what "Charlotte" says, my relationship with him and the Institute changes immediately. This becomes a matter that has to be fully dealt with. I cannot be associated with a man or ministry that is guilty of this level of misconduct.
Grateful to hear that, Alfred. So the question is, apart from an eyewitness third-party account of molestation, how will you personally determine whether the story is true or not? I'm sincerely asking you.
Well . . . what would happen in a court of law, when the standard is "preponderance of the evidence"? Witnesses are interviewed . . . the accused states his side of the story . . . and you decide. So far I have heard what she said . . . and that others remember her there.
I would like to hear someone say what she stated around the time they were alleged to be happening. I am guessing she told someone . . .
I am also very interested in what Mr. Gothard has to say in response. I have known Mr. Gothard to spin things hard in a direction that he favors . . . I have NEVER been aware of anything later proven to be a lie. He, for example, told me that the "Rachel" story in the book was a lie, gave me information in support, and I have done everything I can think of to get contrary evidence. So far I have nothing to counter that.
He has also told me that he has never "seen nor touched the private parts of a woman". He looked me in the eye when he said it. He said it to me on two different occasions (once on the phone), albeit 4-5 years ago. There is a point where you go with your internal "truth compass" of believability . . . in the absence of evidence.
However, at this point we have a first hand witness testifying to the opposite. I am very interested in his response.
Revkev,
Sorry that I accidently hijacked your name, but I think because all your posts have a photo, that people know the difference.
You bring up a good point. What evidence could he possibly be looking for, in a case that is ultimately he said, she said? For one thing, as far as I'm aware, there is no "he said", because Gothard has not responded, to either deny or admit. So, they are all "she said" situations.
We have to look at the 34 victims, and see the pattern. The multiple other people who have acknowledged that he spent great amounts of time alone with young girls. The fact that he groomed and hand picked these girls, always the pretty ones. Even Alfred and his wife acknowledge he hand picked the pretty ones, who were his type. Who does that? What legitimate ministry leader does that?
But the 34 victims? How does one explain that away? It would be one thing if you had one accuse him of misconduct. Two? But 34? I believe these women. No way do 34 women come forward to lie about Gothard- just no way. I believe them. It all adds up. The all powerful leader, accountable to no one. The strange teachings on authority, on how to handle sexual abuse; surrounding himself with high school and college aged pretty girls and spending lots of one on one alone time with them.
I believe these women. I have no reason to doubt them.
And ya'all,
Don't get too frustrated with Alfred. He serves as an excellent foil as to how someone who is very deep in the cult views the situation and Gothard in general verses the sober minded individual. The man calls him his "father' and credits him with his salvation. Nothing we say will convince him. Short of video evidence, he will not be convinced, and even then I can just see him wanting to inspect the video equipment and being convinced it is not legit because the police won't let him have it. You just know that he will doubt all evidence and accounts no matter what and sees it as his job to defend Gothard, which he has pretty much admitted in other posts.
99.99% of the rest of the world is not seeing the situation as Alfred does. I've been to a few other blogs that are discussing it- Patheos has well over 600 comments. The reaction is severe and brutal, in their views about Gothard. He is being handled with kid gloves on RG, comparatively. People are not very forgiving with sexual predators and I don't think we've nearly seen the end of this.
Gothard will have his Alfreds. Don't forget, about 10% of Jim Jone's followers followed him to Guyana and actually drank cyanide laced Kool Aid. You're just going to have people who lift their leader up that high.
Alfred: "I am guessing she told someone [at the time]..."
Umm How d'ya figure?
Gothard keeps her isolated, alienates her from her housemates, threatens her with dire consequences if she tells...
Alfred, I don't think you understand how this works.
I've got an idea. Alfred, can we agree that, at best, Gothard was unwise to be spending so much time alone with pretty young women? Can we at least start there? His pattern of extended time along with beautiful young girls of a certain "look" is well-known. I never even worked at hq, and I knew of these patterns. He put himself in the way of such an accusation, and it has been a long time coming. Can we at least agree on that? Even if you don't fully or even partially believe Charlotte's story, can we start there?
Alfred: seems you have some new conversation buddies. You come back to this point repeatedly: what I'm hearing is not "the Bill I know..." Maybe it's time to bring something further into the light: maybe the Bill "you know" either 1)never existed or 2)changed into something you'd rather not look at.
This does NOT take away what GOD was able to do in and thru him. I knew a man who did great evil in the KINGDOM and yet was involved in the converstion of many hundreds of people. I was part of his collection of churches , and I had to come to grips that the Jim McCotter who evangelized so effectively was a very bad man in some other areas. The leaders around him, BTW, were some of the LAST to get all this figured out, not because they were stupid, but maybe they had a hard time thinking they had been fooled in so many ways, for so long.
As Beverly mentioned , the longer you wait to readjust, the more people will see YOU as an unsafe person to be around, especially women, and those who have daughters. Not trying to be threatening here, that's just how it works.
Praying for you and the thousands that BG has hurt today.
Hannah: I am on record that I believe "Lizzie" and "Meg" . . . as reported. And also that I have cringed at his policy for years.
For me it comes down to a little of Tevye, as he searches for a way to grapple with the unorthodox actions of each daughter ("Fiddler on the Roof", to be patronizing) . . . "On the one hand . . . on the other hand . . . "
On the other hand, Jesus traveled with women, who made Him and his disciples meals, "ministered to them" in various practical ways. Including a former prostitute (thinking of "encouragement cases"). What made that "OK"? Because He was the Son of God? What about those single disciples?
Back to the first hand . . . it just looks so bad if nothing else. And so many people have approached him on this. For the sake of his friends he should have eliminated that from his list, even if all of us are "weaker brothers".
I have felt that Mr. Gothard should have focused his ministry on young men . . . Elijah's "School of the Prophets" . . . Charles Spurgeon's "Preacher's College" . . . Jesus and his disciples, less the female entourage. Maybe the culture is different . . . whatever, it has been obvious that the current pattern has caused problems.
And, for the record, he finally listened. Last year all the young ladies - counselees, "encouragement cases", whatever - were sent away from headquarters, except for 15 in key roles. You do know that his sister has been his personal secretary for decades now.
So you, Alfred, are still set on the phrase Bill told you in person, that "I have never seen or touched the private parts of a woman." If that is what you're hanging on to, unfortunately this story doesn't really change anything for you. What he said is still technically true. He didn't 'actually' touch "Charlotte's" breasts or vagina as all indications from the story point to him groping her over her clothes. Pretty sad, isn't it? Seems like Gothard put a lot of thinking into his little phrase so he could still be 'technically' correct. That is, if nothing more comes out in further stories... Probably one of the many lies he told himself to make his actions 'OK;' "Well, I didn't really touch her privates..." Totally disgusting!!
I thought I had commented . . . let me try again. I personally see the one equivalent to the other. I would not accept such a distinction from Mr. Gothard or anyone. If and when it is my time to speak up on this, I will make sure that is made clear.
I think comment moderation is not keeping up. I'm having comments show up the next day, I'm not even sure they are all going through.
Alfred, I wanted to reply to your post about "Rachels story” above but there was no reply field so I’m doing it here. I have not read all the comments on this post because it’s overwhelming for me. I’ve never read Mr Veinot’s book and only just read your comment about Rachel’s story. But from what you said I believe it 100% because I experienced a very similar situation at the MTC. My infraction? hugging a girl (I’m also a girl), my friend who was leaving that week. Before I was put in a “prayer closet” for that offense I spent months being given the most difficult least desirable jobs. I was regularly denied the ability to leave the training center (in groups with others) even being made to stop attending my church of choice (again with fellow mtcer’s) and was only allowed to attend the bible study on site. Every night I would go into the bathroom and cry because of the emotional abuse I was experiencing. When my friend left I had one month left of my stint at mtc. I was kept locked in a room only able to receive contact from 3 different authorities for 2 weeks. I missed the opportunity to say goodbye to several friends who left before me. When they finally let me out of the room I was kept in serious check. They manipulated me into confessing things that weren’t true and did the same to my remaining friends. I was told by 1 of the few girls who managed to stay under the radar that mtc was better than itc but they had a very similar style of operation. I’m saying all of that to tell you that I don’t have proof of Rachels story but from the bottom of my heart I believe it.
As much as I appreciate the teachings of ATI and as much as I will always defend homeschooling, this story struck a very scary cord with me. In 2007 I attended my first homeschool conference. There I met Bill Gothard. At 14 years old I certainly was not the sheltered homeschooler that most were. I was very cognoscent of the way Mr. Got hard was looking at me. My parents were excited to speak to him but he wasn't paying attention to what they were saying he was looking at me. He asked how old I was and marveled at my age and then he said to them. "She will be a lust and temptation to older me, you should send her to "journey of the heart" which was some youth retreat he was involved in. My parents didn't act like it was a big deal, but I was uncomfortable. I knew then and there that something wasn't right about Mr. Gothard. Do I reject ATI teaching? No I will always embrace the scriptural foundations. But I know in my heart that this is real.
"She will be a lust and temptation to older ME"
I am sure you meant type "to older MEN" but the Freudian slip was funny!
Gothard reveals an insight into how he views women when he said that: as a "lust and temptation".
In his books and from his work with abusers, Lundy Bancroft makes it clear that abusers abuse because of what they Believe about the other person. His book about angry men demonstrates that these men abuse their wives because how they view her. This would seem to be true of Gothard. Again and again in his materials women are painted a certain way. Even heroic women are slammed. He turns some Bible stories on their heads and either blames the victim, or blames the hero. Hopefully the misogynistic beliefs that he teaches will come to light and the rape culture eradicated from within evangelical Christianity soon.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/04/character-sketches-or-sketchy-characters-dinah-and-tamar/
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-tale-of-two-abigails/
I posted this..., but it struck me as apropos...
I wonder how personal the interview is?
Journey to the heart for young ladies.
https://www.regonline.com/builder/site/tab2.aspx?EventID=1305625
Journey Overview:
The Journey begins on Saturday, with each attendee having a personal interview with Mr. Gothard at some point during the day. The first official session will start at 6:00PM Saturday evening.
Sunday:
This will be a time of completing personal interviews, getting to know team members, and various teaching sessions.
There are so many things, that looked at in the context of what we now know, are so utterly creepy. One on one interviews, sizing them up. Looking for the ones that were his type? Looking for the ones who were the most vulnerable? Least likely to talk?
It certainly is a valid point in light of these stories. I was a staff member and near by during some of those interviews when the Journeys first started. Boys and girls alike would take turns individually having brief chats with Bill in a public setting, not in his office. It didn't appear disturbing or inappropriate at the time. Often young people were invited to join the staff after attending the Journeys. Many were girls, but most ended up working in other departments, not in Bill's office.
Daniel, It all depends on the girl. [I went on several journeys]
Some are no more than an interview. Questions like: Do you have a church group, What is your relationship with your dad, Do you have a boyfriend,Rate your relationship with God/Family/Parents, What lies do you believe about yourself, What fears do you have, Why aren't you smiling in the submitted photo... etc. [all questions I was asked]
My most recent Journey "interview" consisted in hand massages, comments on looks/hair/eyes/smile, hand on leg, trying to convince me that God had sent me to IBLP for a special work...
What inappropriate questions to be asking. As sexual predators often do he was obviously sourcing who the vulnerable girls were by their relationships with their families, experience with boys and their FEARS! TOTALLY SICK
There is a price one must pay in legalism of leaping over huge bodies of truth to circumvent heartwrenching testimonies for "officialdom," which you try to justify,Alfred at the expense of these exploited young women,the most of which were vulnerable moldable victims,disposable,replacable.The machine must go on and up to now it basically has.I somehow now believe that behind these testimonies lies something you most desperatey want to get your hands on but cannot.Legalism is one thing,truth quite another.I am quite sorry for these girls their cry has affected my prayers.I'm afraid you words are hollow,too hollow.
This tragic story answers one question I had after reading Meg's story the other day.
Meg's story is different from all the others in that what happened between her and Mr. Gothard was consensual... she may have had misgivings, but she did actively seek and encourage it. It was of course completely inappropriate (even by secular standards), but probably not criminal.
The question I found myself asking was, "If he had been allowed to marry her, would his deviant behavior with other women have stopped?" I wondered whether his behavior was an outgrowth of frustrated sexuality that did not have an appropriate outlet in marriage, or if it was a compulsion that would continue even if he had a wife.
I think this story answers that question with finality, because in comparing the dates, this was going on AT THE SAME TIME that he was seducing Meg.
My only remaining question is, if Meg was working 15-hour days with him, how on earth did he manage all this time alone with Charlotte too, without Meg suspecting anything?
Vivian, I think Charlotte was already there when Meg came on staff, and then left before he got too involved with Meg. . . but yes they are one after the other, and may overlap somewhat.
"If he had been allowed to marry her, would his deviant behavior with other women have stopped?"
This is a naive question. Many rapists are married, and sometimes they have fairly "normal" relations with their wives. Even in this story Charlotte's father was married and still abused her. Having an outlet does not stop sexual deviancy. As well, many men Christian and otherwise have gone for many years with no "outlet" and yet do not fondle or leer at women. People do not learn how to have normal relationships by getting married, nor does marriage or a serious relationship prevent a man from being a sexual deviant.
Well said, Becky.
I believe this story. I think it a Horrible thing to take advantage of Charlotte in this way!! And to tell her it was in anyway her fault what her father did for her is completely disgusting. It's downright perverted.
I read this story and felt a significant amount of grief. I am assuming that RG has enough evidence from witnesses and enough legal counsel to publish such a story without fear of a libel suit from IBLP. I would suggest going to the media. Perhaps if the legal system can not do anything, and the religious community will not do anything, getting the word out beyond a small website audience can do what we can not, and that is stop the fallacious teachings and the abuse - spiritual, sexual, mental and emotional. I have never felt such a need to get on my knees and pray like I do right now - and will continue for all involved. May we all find peace!
"I have never felt such a need to get on my knees and pray like I do right now - and will continue for all involved. May we all find peace!"
Exactly!
My biggest concern is how this will impact the lives of all those still deceived. There are so many groups like Dr. Darrel Ray's Recovering from Religion that are ready to pull down all belief in God. He has groups on many college campuses looking for those who have suffered from false teachings hoping to convince them God is nothing more than a manmade virus parents teach to control sexual immorality because they fear sex. Legalistic systems feed right into his assault on all faith. He was a fundamentalist Christian that left the Church in the 1980's. Every time a Christian leader falls he gleans more followers for his group.
Fervent prayers are a must.
I would not worry too much about the gates of hell prevailing against Christ's church. I've been involved in talking with some who have lost their faith in Christ through their interaction with IBLP. There are hundreds.
It is insightful to note that many who have struggled with losing their faith and overwhelming doubts have seen or heard Jesus speak to them through visions, dreams, or audible voice during their deepest times of struggle. I would also note that this is not unlike Jesus reaching out to call Muslims to Himself.
Systems liks IBLP call: "If only you double down on your efforts to achieve the favor of God, then you will achieve success." I consider this the ultimate system of humanism.
Jesus calls, in Matthew chapter 11, "28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."
Jesus is the answer. I would suggest that we file away all those nicely bound seminar materials and follow the Worthy One. The walk of the Christian is a walk of listening and obedience to the voice of the Holy Spirit--not a system of self-effort through teachings, principles, or seminars. The reality is that only God is good.
Jesus said, "26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
That is the comfort of the Good Shepherd. We have nothing to fear if we love and trust Jesus as we follow Him.
My concerns Samuel leads me to prayer not inaction through fear. I believe the Lord has more than shown how he has restored many back to faith after a period of doubt and separation. I believe He has been answering the prayers of many for these who have been injured. I believe He will continue to do so.
Isa 59:1
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
1 Timothy 2:1 - I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men
All of this is not in opposition to actions being taken by RG. It is acknowledging my responsibility as a sister in Christ to continue to pray for all those who will be touched by the outcome as gift of love.
Just to note: that second quote is from John chapter 10.
"My biggest concern is how this will impact the lives of all those still deceived...Every time a Christian leader falls he gleans more followers for his group."
In light of that, the best thing true believers can do is to take the lead and be at the forefront of exposing and removing false and abusive teachers from their positions of influence. Thank the Lord for the folks at RG who are doing just that. This is the way forward. It shows a watching world, including those who are coming out from under the abuse that those who are the true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ are defenders of the oppressed and champions of the truth and that we love them, and love Christ, more than our reputations.
If a leader falls and it becomes apparent that Christians who knew about it hung back silently and did not come to the aid of the abused out of fear that it might make Christianity look bad, it becomes a horrible testimony and brings shame on the name of Christ. Let us be the first in line to rescue and undeceive the deceived and abused. We can reach out to them in love with one hand while exposing the deceiver/abuser with the other.
Amen! Well said Lori!
Lori you said exactly what I was thinking when I posted about the need for prayer. Your answer is my prayer. Thank you!
I only brought it up because through prayer the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the needs of those who may fall into confusion. He will also prepare us to reach out to those He sends our way.
We need to stay prepared. People will be adversely impacted. There are people ready to share another lie.
I do support what RG is doing.
Great points, Nancy! I share your concerns. Just wanted to offer some reassurance and encouragement. But you're right - there will be fallout and it's important to think ahead about the best ways to respond.
The concern trolls are stumbling over themselves to rush out of the woodwork aren't they?
I'm so sorry Charlotte.
As someone who has experienced similar abuse & manipulation from Bill while I was living in one of his training centers, it angers me to see the negative/unbelieving people & comments. WHY would you want to defend a man that these types of accusations against him? If there is ANY amount of truth in these accounts of abuse, why would you want him in the position to continue harassing people? I know comments like this have been said before and this is nothing new. But, seriously?! It sickens me.
Kathryn,
I agree and share the frustration at those who refuse to believe the victims. There really aren't that many here who are in denial, as they are. They tend to be very vocal and post many times, so it might seem as though there are a lot of them, but the overwhelming majority of us here believe these accounts. Given the number of young women who have come forward at this point,it becomes truly incredible when one starts suggesting that they are all fabricating their stories. All 34 of them? Ridiculous, but not really that surprising, given the mind control that Gothard has over many of his followers.
Have you contacted Recovering Grace to share your story? I really hope that you will also share your story, because each account of his abuse really matters. The best way to stop him from harming other girls is to tell your story and, in so doing, warn others. The more women who share their stories, the more impossible it will be for anyone to deny the truth.
Kevin, That's good to know. The ones that are in denial seem to be obnoxiously persistent. I have not yet written my story. I've thought about it though.
I don't know the extent of what he did to you, but I am so sorry that you were abused by a man who was in a position of trust in your life- someone who should have been a safe harbor.
I pray that Christ has healed you or is the the process of doing so.
Kathryn,
You said, "As someone who has experienced similar abuse & manipulation from Bill while I was living in one of his training centers, it angers me to see the negative/unbelieving people & comments."
I hope you will seriously consider sharing your own personal story with Recovering Grace. You just never know how if may help someone who has yet to hear.
I pray you will find continued healing on your life journey.
Why defend? Because, unlike others, he is my "father". Paul said, "Ye have not many fathers" (1 Cor. 4:15) . . . many teachers, just a few fathers. Bill is in the role for me. I was an confused, frightened 14 year old when I attended my first seminar in 1973. What was presented to me there - along with the others of the 10,000 in attendance in the Portland Memorial Coliseum, changed me forever. I found the assurance of my salvation . . . and I found a ground for my spiritual life that has never left me. I have 11 kids . . . I guarantee you that would never have happened apart from Bill Gothard . . . we homeschool . . . so many decisions that I have made that are life altering and that have brought me lasting joy, purpose.
I heard Jesus in those seminars. I recall sitting in the last session of the last day of one of those years, full of joy, enthusiasm, peace, light . . . and the two women in the row ahead of me turned to each other and said, "This is just like when I was saved!" And I knew exactly what she meant.
People will pop in to find fault . . . it is OK. It is my life, my experience . . . my God, my salvation. And Bill was key to all of it.
You defend your own parents far more than you would any others under similar circumstances. He is not your "Dad" . . . he is mine.
Jesus is key to our salvation--everyone else (human) are incidental.
Alfred. I am not looking to go back & forth. Clearly you are not open to *really* hearing what all of these people with testimonies have to say. I have no doubt that Jesus could find someone at an IBLP seminar, and if that's where Jesus met you, great. But, I know FOR SURE that it was my "Dad" that was abusing & sexually harassing people, I would NOT be defending him.
Would you not want action to be taken if it was your daughter being subjected to the same abuse, even if was your "Dad" that you would be 'betraying'?
Thanks Kathryn! You said exactly what I was thinking! I truly hope you share your story. No matter what kind of abuse you experienced, it was still abuse. My heart broke for the young woman, Kasey who was so emotionally abused for hugging another girl! This organization has caused a great deal of harm and I hope that others can be warned. Thanks for sharing what you did!
That makes this so hard for you, Alfred, and I get it. I've seen one of my own hero-mentors fall hard, and it shook me greatly. In my prayers for this whole situation, I'll be praying for you as well. God draws straight lines with crooked sticks, and can use it all for his glory. Glad he used so much of it for good in yours. Praying you find wisdom in separating the wheat from the chaff. Remember Psalm 27:10: "Though my father and mother forsake me, the LORD will receive me." Sometimes we don't know Jesus is all we need until Jesus is all we've got.
Exactly this.
Gothard was, at least for a time, spiritual father to many of us here. Some were born into ATI and always resented it, some were dragged into the ATI program kicking and screaming, but many more of us had the kinds of ecstatic, life-changing experiences you described having in your youth. We were bowled over by the excitement and power of what seemed to be the teachings of God, teachings for which we thought Gothard was merely a channel.
In fact, the first time I had a spiritual experience like this in ATI was the second time I saw Gothard speak in person, at the age of 14, as you were when he first impacted your life so dramatically. (Notice how nicely the ages correlate to the height of emotional excitability.) I took vows, "cleaned out" my life, disagreed with Gothard on many topics but earnestly adopted the key standards of music, courtship, authority, diligent study, keeping a clear conscience...It turned out that his teachings are well-packaged commercial products, and this spiritual "father" was a hireling who cared not for the sheep. He weeps crocodile tears when caught in misdeeds, but his tears come cheaply and seem to have never led to lasting change in his conduct or heart.
I was first an anonymous teenage foot soldier for Gothard's empire, believing that I was working for God's kingdom. Then I was a trophy he "rescued" from going to Bible college by bringing me to Headquarters, allegedly to work on a very specific project, but really to stand by to fill his emotional and physical needs. He pursued my recruitment to HQ relentlessly, phoning my home on a near-daily basis, having the family up to Headquarters and picking us up at the airport himself (a tremendous surprise to parents already accustomed to the sales and recruitment techniques of the corporate world), selling hard to my parents a pitch about how the project I was to work on was a fulfillment of one of William Gothard Sr's deathbed admonitions, assuring my father on the phone that he (Bill) would not resume the physical behaviors that I had found so troubling on my trip with Gothard if only my father would still consent to send me to HQ...on and on and on, so Bill could secure my presence as an object of his pleasure and amusement. My parents were sophisticated people with much ministry and corporate experience, not overly idealistic delusionals, and not star-struck idolaters who thought Gothard could do no wrong. They asked pointed, specific questions about what I could expect at HQ if I delayed or abandoned my college education to work there, and he built them air castles. The key to sales, they say, is finding out what people want, then telling them they can have it. Bill is the most masterful salesman I have ever encountered.
I was a human consumable to him, one more young girl (17 at the time) to service Bill's endless appetite not only for forcing (or trying to force) instant emotional intimacy with young girls, but also for the thrill of crossing young girls' physical boundaries. If he was so aggressive with me, someone who had never dated or held hands, and was so much more aggressive with Meg, a slightly older girl with a little chaste dating experience, then yes, Charlotte's story is supported not only by the strength of her own words (which would be adequate by themselves) but by the pattern of behavior in which her abuse took place. As has been stated many times her, grooming has a natural end point.
Many people retain loyalty to a parent who has betrayed their trust.
Very well put Lizzie.
Alfred,
At the risk of sounding terse, this dogged determination to defend Gothard and call him "father" should serve as proof positive that IBLP is a cult to anyone who's on the fence about the issue. It's also nothing short of idolatrous. It sounds like you reached a spiritual milestone thanks to the work of Gothard and IBLP. And that's great. I don't think you're alone there. There are a lot of people whose spiritual walks benefited from the program. There are also a lot of people who have also been inspired in some way by many a false teacher before they released that the truths they were being fed were amidst a sea of lies that were built upon those truths. In any case, wouldn't it be more prudent to give God the glory whenever we're drawn closer to Him instead of the people He may happen to use at a particular time?
On top of that, the fact that you continue to view people who tell stories about the abusive nature of IBLP and Gothard with suspicion while looking for opportunities to poke holes into their accounts only speaks to how much you're willing to elevate your own experience in IBLP above everyone else's. Not only are you projecting your experience onto theirs by inferring that they didn't do everything correctly to be where you are today and suffered as a result, you are also marginalizing every single person who comes in here broken by the IBLP system by doing so. I'm glad you had the experience you had, but that does not change the fact that God is bigger than Gothard and can use other people to spread the Gospel and the meaning of true freedom in Christ - and the sad reality that there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of heartbreaking accounts from people who were broken by IBLP shared on this website through various articles and comments that exhibit similar characteristics and point to specific patterns of behavior and abuse. And that's just here.
So when is enough going to be enough for you, Alfred? How many more abused people must experience what so many people have experienced for 40 years before you're ready to give this up and stop defending the abuser?
Thank you and Amen!!
Al.... I know your son N. pretty well.... He is a great kid.Quite the Video man!! Perhaps you are missing the point here. Its clear that God uses sinful people to further His kingdom here on Earth. Right? But because God uses us...does that absolve us of the earthly problems our sins cause? I worked closely with Bill for several years, and was in ATI for 24 years. Bill at best is a manipulative conniver(sp?). At worst...well....here it is. I am most frustrated by the lack of action of those Senior Staff around BG over the years....even now. Dwight, Ben, John, George, Bob....time to head up to the Staff Center and run him out. Clear out his office and have the doors re-keyed. All of your families' reputations are at stake now too... Time to shut him down!
DSK,
How do you know that Dwight, Ben, John, George, and Bob even know about all this?
Isn't it about time someone informed them?
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I pray that others are informing them. I pray that they act accordingly.
Still shaking my head in amazement that you find this so hard to believe and saying "Shame" on you.
That was for Alfred not DSK. Sorry.
We all loved Gothard that way. We all loved ATI, that way.
If there was ever a group of people that understood the grief of having your hero exposed as a mere mortal, and an unsavory one at that, we do.
Good luck on your journey, Alfred. I say that, completely free of sarcasm.
In the case of these stories, we are hearing about the favored. But in my mind, there are worse stories of the unfavored. When we saw the rotten fruit of Bill and the lying and hypocrisy, that's when we turned to The Lord for answers and God didn't disappoint us. I see it like getting down to Jesus Christ and Him crucified and then taking these long held doctrines and examining them in light of the whole counsel of Scripture. Does the initial premise fit? Don't just apply this to Bill but use this situation to check things out from now on. What are people basing their ideology on? We are a body but we constantly put someone on our pedestal and exalt them as the spokesperson for God. God no longer operates that way. We are one with Him and each have things to share.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12 KJV)
Hi Alfred, Congratulations on your 11 kids! I would like to point out that while you had 11 kids because of Bill Gothard, my parents (who had 3) only have 2 grandkids because of Bill Gothard and his anti-marriage, anti-socialization stance. Anti marriage because the person whom we are to marry should be perfect, or near perfect, and fit ideals that, well, are sky high. Anti socialization because widely in the ATIA circles male and female students were not to socialize and get to know each other, even during activities when there are so many people around it isn't funny. Even if, as I did, a girl didn't talk with boys, did good work with the Institute, did follow the rules she (as I was) could be blacklisted and labeled with a "courtship spirit" (whatever in the world that means but the way I was told it was something bad).
Back to your 11 children. Bill Gothard robbed my parents of at least 4 grandchildren, if not more. Bill Gothard robbed my parents (and myself and my brothers) of 2 spouses for their sons. I had to go against Bill Gothard's rules to be married. If I had broken Bill Gothard's rules sooner I might have had more than 2 children. So there again, Bill Gothard robbed our family of "blessings" that others so readily hail as wonderful. So go, enjoy your 11 children, but realize that there are countless other children who SHOULD be in this world but because of Bill Gothard, his courtship standards, the way that he ground them into the ATI students, the way that staff, students, and leadership interpreted what he said and forced us to follow ... because of all that there are FEWER children in this world than there should be. So let that reversal choir sing. I would have rather heard a choir of children from new marriages from the apprenticeship students.
Just noticed there are two Nancy's. From now on I'll put a 2 by my name.
That whole issue is one that I can't follow . . . not just Bill Gothard, mind you. I understand the principle of 1 Cor. 7, being "too busy" to marry. But that clearly is presented as NOT the norm . . . and as a "Gift". For those of us without "the gift", it is a dangerous game to play. I believe Bill said - maybe this was 2nd hand, I hope it was accurate - that he erred in pushing for Steve, his brother, to not marry. Before the garbage started.
I remember friends in the area we lived in So. Cal. . . . the father actually took me aside, whispering, that they were not doing it "that way". For the reasons you described. Even Michael Pearl has (*gulp*) come out to say that older unmarrieds should proceed with or without full parental blessing, if necessary. The point is more that parents need to largely back away . . . and save their withholding of blessing for really big things.
I am sure there is a balance there, but I am at a loss to see the blessing found in "the big delay". Where that has saved more trouble than it has caused.
Alfred I wish I could say it was an anomaly but it wasn't. In fact in many of the apprenticeship sessions it was highly promoted by Bill Gothard and by his speakers to vow to remain single until we were in our 30s, to be "asleep" in the Lord only to wake up when our spouse arrive via our parents' blessing (much like arranged marriages), to focus on ministry (with heavy leanings on working for Gothard's ministry over any other ministry) instead of preparing for the path (life) God has chosen for us. I wish I could say this was not the norm in ATI circles but it was. Personally I hope it is no longer this way but in the 20+ years of my involvement the pattern was becoming more and more ingrained. I doubt it has change at all.
Actually Alfred it was the Holy Spirit that saved you out of your sin not Bill Gothard. You can't see that you are giving a fallen sinful man credit for your salvation. If Bill had never been born then God would have used someone else. Don't give men credit for what God has done.
I can see you value Bill highly but if it is at the expense of seeing him for what he is then what happens if ALL these accusations are true what happens to your faith then?
Ditto what John said.
"Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
Alfred, thank you for being so open and honest regarding your reasons for being doggedly loyal to Bill Gothard. Perhaps your sharing these things has finally opened the door for your brothers and sisters to minister to your real needs in this area.
It sounds to me as if you're confusing the channel of the gospel message with its giver. If you love Christ more than Bill Gothard, then please - love those whom Christ loves by being willing to come to the aid and defense of those who are being, and have been, used and abused by this man. You really have no right to put Bill Gothard first. Our Lord loves all these young women who have risked shame and condemnation by come forward. He loves all those individuals in all those families who have suffered hurt, confusion, division, and even destruction as a result of Mr. Gothard's teachings and influence.
It's clear that your veneration of Bill Gothard is clouding your vision. He is not the source of the message that saved you or the ideas that changed your life for the better but merely the conduit. Deceivers can parrot truth if they think it will give them an advantage. Some of them are brilliant masters at convincing people (even sometimes themselves)that they are sincere.
Come over to the side of truth. You will not only be warmly welcomed, be you will be a tremendous ally in this effort to rescue and protect the Jesus' lambs.
Alfred, I still say shame on you!
Eva, you crack me up , I hope your wagging finger is ready for an ultra-marathon. Take whatever performance enhancers you need to, you are a joy and blessing to read. Would love to have two grandmas like you.... OK, maybe one....
Eternity will tell, Eva. :-)
"But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts." (Acts 13:50)
greg, I have lost pace with Alfred I'm afraid. He's posted so many that I can't keep up. But I'm still shaming him with my wagging finger even if I don't post it. But I didn't expel him from the coasts either. And I don't know any Jews. Plus I'm only saying 'shame on you". No persecution. I do feel sorry for him, though, that he is so enamored with Bill Gothard that he can't see clearly. Maybe someday The Lord will reveal to him that a woman's menstrual period does NOT remind her husband of Christ's shed blood. Who is to remind women or our teenagers of the same thing? Or the unmarried man? I hope not that. Alfred, it was that lie alone that started me on the road to recovery from IBLP. I knew it wasn't true and I had actually written it down in my own handwriting. Too busy to even notice until someone pointed it out to me. Start looking for the lies and unbiblical thinks you wrote in your hurry in the notebook. I think this statement was somewhere in the 200s in the Advanced notebook. I threw them all away years ago so can't look it up anymore.
Eva: you are doing a splendid job, trust me. Please remember ALFRED's careful, and loving admonition: beware the JEWS who stir things up... you know..those who put GREAT CONFIDENCE in outward appearance, and are fastidious about religious observance, but inside are full of rottenness and dead men's bones..
you know: religious leaders who place HEAVY burdens on those they teach, but won't lift a finger to actually help make the burden lighter.... ALFRED says: be on the lookout for those types of false teachers.. they are truh-bull.... he should know
Hmmm. I'm having a bit of trouble trying to imagine Paul and Barnabas intentionally surrounding themselves with the hottest looking young female disciples and playing footsie with them in their spare time.
the seminars way back in 1977 changed my life as well-I had self acceptance issues eternal security issues and on and on and everything gothard presented was all backed up by scripture we ended up homeschooling and one of my girls went to headquarters and worked there a couple times she never saw signs of improper relations and at the time he promoted never having a male counsel a woman and I understood that to be young woman alone with him as well so I can separate the baby from the bathwater and I can still believe and appreciate his teaching and I will not believe this unless he says he did these things yes I will give him the benefit of the doubt I know people who are bitter will spread vicious rumors and say mean things -my husband and I were in the ministry for years and Christians are the worst they kick you while you are down and don't look back-but I never focused on him as a man I focused on his preaching of the Word -we know people fall I am not perfect and God uses me anyway
"I will not believe this unless he says he did these things"
I guess you and Camille Cosby wear the same goggles, with which enable you to view someone you hold dear as you wish, regardless of mountains of evidence:
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/608110663/camille-cosby-defends-bill-cosby-says-he-was-the-victim-of-lynch-mobs
What kind of eternal security subjects one to leaky umbrellas caused by an authority's sins? What kind of eternal security demands constant complete, full confession of the smallest infractions before one can know reconciliation with God or confront another with a major interpersonal violation or public sin against God's Truth? What kind of security accuses everyone of "bitterness" whenever they confront an elder for sin or error? What kind of security blames the victim for molestation?
There is no security there. Only bondage. And death.
Thank you, Charlotte, for sharing your story. My dad finally believes Mr Gothard really is evil. Not just a little off theologically, and is no longer making excuses for him.
"My dad finally believes Mr Gothard really is evil. "
Samantha,
I too am witnessing a changing of hearts going on currently. The tide is turning and I think we are going to see God doing some amazing things over the next few months as he tears down a false teacher and his evil empire.
I'm experiencing intense levels of feelings after reading this article. I feel angry, cheated and hurt. Bill Gothard used each person in the ATI program to help further his perverted and disqustingly addictive behavior. I desperately want this evil and sick man along his sick teachings to be destroyed once and for all. May God have mercy on his soul. It would be better that a millstone was cast about his neck and he was cast into the depths of the sea than to face the wrath of a holy and righteous God. The time for passivity is over. He needs to be called to account for his actions before more damage is done. Bless each brave soul for speaking out and exposing this monster.
Amen.
Hello everyone, I encourage you all to take a deep breath. This website has posted that the statute of limitations has run on any possible legal action. As a licensed attorney, I can tell you that this is categorically false. There is no such thing as a statute of limitations in a criminal case like this. Case in point: I imagine most of you have seen the recent prosecutions of 80 and 90 year old former members of the Nazi party.
Even civil actions based on the sexual abuse of minors carry completely different statutes of limitations than other civil actions such as negligence or products liability. How do I know this? I have worked in a Family Law firm for years. I have investigated homes, I have interviewed kids, and we have successfully sued sexual molesters with jury verdicts in excess of 1 million dollars.
If this story is true, the victims need to contact an attorney and meet with BG. If BG denies it, Charlotte could then file a lawsuit or turn the case over to the authorities. Posting statements like this on a biased website is the worst thing Charlotte could possibly do. If she took her case to trial, Charlotte would not be permitted to remain anonymous because she has already posted a tell-all on the worldwide web. This could result in a public hearing instead of a closed hearing. Did RG ever explain that to her? I doubt it.
Someone stated that the case would not go to trial because it is all "inadmissible hearsay." That is patently incorrect. All Charlotte would have to say is, "He fondled my _____." That is not hearsay, that is admissible testimony of what she says happened.
So in summary, if this story is true, there are steps she needs to take to resolve this issue. Posting a piece on here, with 2 witnesses that did not really witness anything, is not her best move. I would be happy to speak with Charlotte about this case, and I would not charge for my time. It could be a completely confidential interview. If this story is true, here is your opportunity to bring it to justice.
Licensed Attorney, Thank you for enlightening us with this insightful information. I truly hope cases like Charlotte's are able to be resolved and those who committed the crimes brought to justice.
I think you may be replying to my earlier statement about "inadmissible hearsay." I am also a licensed attorney (not in Illinois yet however). My point was that the website publication itself is inadmissible hearsay, not her story. In other words, you couldn't print out a copy of this story from the website and try to admit it in court. In that way, the RG publication itself is hearsay. Obviously Charlotte's testimony would not be inadmissible because she is describing her own experience. I probably should have made that more clear.
As for the criminal statute of limitations on this, I'd like to know how you conclude there is no SOL. Nazi war crimes are not a good analogy for a number of reasons - including that prosecuting former Nazi war camp guards takes place in Europe, and the US cases usually involve deporting former guards which is governed by a specific federal statute. For sexual crimes involving a minor, 720 ILCS 5/3-5 and 5/3-6 imposes a 20 year SOL from the date the minor turns 18 for several felony sexual crimes and a 10 year SOL from the date the minor turns 18 for misdemeanor sexual abuse. If you know a way around this SOL I think it would be interesting to hear. But I suspect this statute is probably what the RG editors were referring to when they indicated that the statute of limitations has passed.
I'd also note, as you did Licensed Attorney, that even if a criminal SOL had expired in her case, her story would likely still be very relevant and quite possibly admissible to any contemporary legal action.
Nice to meet you, Chris. Thanks for your comments.
In the event of a criminal prosecution:
720 ILCS 5/3-6(j)(1) reads:
When the victim is under 18 years of age at the time of the offense, a prosecution for criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual assault, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual abuse, or felony criminal sexual abuse may be commenced AT ANY TIME when corroborating physical evidence is available or an individual who is required to report an alleged or suspected commission of any of these offenses under the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act fails to do so.
I agree that if there is no physical evidence here, and if no one else in authority knew about this and failed to report it, then the 720 ILCS 5/3-6(j)(2) standard of 20 years after turning 18 would apply in a criminal proceeding.
She said she "first met" BG in July of 1992. Assuming she was a minor at the time of the incident, she is probably just coming up on the 18 + 20 year mark. All the more reason why she needs to come forward now if her claims are true. I believe that the conduct she alleged is felonious, so she would have 20 years.
In the event of a civil suit, the 18 + 20 rule is the same. See 735 ILCS 5/13-202.2(b)-(d).
So instead of creating racket on a biased website, she should seek legal counsel if she is a legitimate victim.
Here's a question for you Licensed Attorney - and I haven't done any research yet so this is just brain storming on my part.
My general understanding is that the mandatory reporter laws have changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. Even if BG is considered a mandatory reporter today (and I'm not sure that he would be - although IMHO he should be given all the youth he "counsels"), he may not have been a mandatory reporter when the events in Charlotte's story occurred. If they didn't apply, then would the extended SOL apply (assuming that this otherwise falls under the 20 year SOL rather than the 10 year SOL)?
I will say this about sharing her story, by going "public," she may provide courage to others who experienced similar treatment to come forward with their own stories, which may be more recent. That certainly has a greater benefit, which may be her intention.
That is an interesting angle, Chris. As a youth counselor, I believe he does fall under the ANCRA.
Even in the event that 720 ILCS 5/3-6(j)(1) does not apply, Charlotte has 20 years after her 18th birthday to bring a criminal or civil action.
This entire accusation is very serious. If it is true, we need to bring this man to justice. If it is not true, Charlotte and this website are committing defamation per se. Either scenario is disturbing.
Finally sound words first post I read that sounds credible
Please Charlotte, and all the other "victims", complete the purpose for which you have started and see this through. If your true intent is to stop him... take him to court. RG, please help her do this. Otherwise the testimonies are losing credibility and motives will be questioned. You will never get BG to step down by simply flooding the internet with these stories. What would it take to move forward with this?
Thank you, my thoughts exactly. This website could just look like a way to rant and could be perceived as untrue if victims aren't willing to testify to a court. And yes, they should be able to take this to court.
http://www.icasa.org/docs/sol%20charts%20for%20web.pdf
I just searched Illinois statute of limitations sex offender and found this. RG has done their home work. They are correct that the statute of limitations has run out. If you are truly an attorney, why don't you post your name and credentials? Send a message to the RG team stating how you think you can help. Instead you sound like someone fishing for more information.
That is criminal. I wonder if the state of limitations is the same for civil. They sometimes vary.
720 ILCS 5/3-6(j)(1) reads:
When the victim is under 18 years of age at the time of the offense, a prosecution for criminal sexual assault, aggravated criminal sexual assault, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual abuse, or felony criminal sexual abuse may be commenced AT ANY TIME when corroborating physical evidence is available or an individual who is required to report an alleged or suspected commission of any of these offenses under the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act fails to do so.
If there is no corroborating physical evidence, then she has 20 years after turning 18. If she was 16 when this occurred, this could still be a viable claim depending on her date of birth.
Or, again, perhaps the people who actually talked to "Charlotte" and know her date of birth already did the math and determined that the statute of limitations had in fact run and the physical evidence was not available. And perhaps Charlotte decided to come forward so that other people, whose causes are still actionable, will have the courage to speak up and bring about justice. Justice doesn't happen in silence.
Queen of Carrots, that is certainly a possibility. I just find the timing really odd. It is almost like she tried to blog about it right after the statute had run. She had 20 years...
The timing isn't odd. If you look at the progression of people coming forward, one by one, with their accounts of sexual harassment by this man beginning in April of 2012, it's perfectly reasonable that Charlotte would simply be one more victim who recently became aware of the other women sharing their stories and as a result decided to come forward. (It actually was 8 months ago when she contacted RG, which only about a year after the very first sexual harassment story broke.)
is there any way that anyone could approach congress and have the statute of limitations changed or abolished, repealed?
Not a bad idea. It would be at the state level, however. Call it Charlotte's Law.
Licensed Attorney,
#1 - Comparing war crimes and this criminal activity (yes, it is criminal) is not really very wise. They are 2 completely different jurisdictions, and have completely different legalities. They are not interchangeable, and therefore don't really make your case for you.
#2 - Would you mind posting your credentials and name for us? As you might have guessed, those of us who grew up in this cult are rather leery of those who claim to be an "authority" but give no proof of such. If you truly are a lawyer with this background and credentials then you will not mind if we check you out.
I am sorry you did not appreciate my analogy. If you want a statute, take a look at 720 ILCS 5/3-6(j)(1). Otherwise, the 20 year limit after she turned 18 would apply. (See comments above).
I will decline from posting my name or credentials on this website. It is too much like the National Inquirer to have the name of a law firm associated with it. If you do not believe me, no hard feelings. I stand by my research.
I don't know what the National "Inquirer" is. If you meant the National Enquirer, which is a tabloid publication, I think you would agree that this site barely resembles that at all. As does a purported attorney making such a odd mistake on a major publication's name.
But kudos to you for not wanting to attach a law firm's name to this site. God only knows that law firms everywhere enjoy a completely unsullied and spotless reputation.
You don't have to be familiar with it to know how to spell it- especially an intelligent seasoned attorney.
…and licensed!
I would think the article content would be the most revealing, but hey you're licensed.
Your hostility, while amusing, is nothing more than background noise. Look at the Illinois statutes I have cited and then get back to me with a substantive contribution to this discussion. What are you doing to help?
Licensed Attorney, comments like this serve to stir up more heat than light. Please keep your comments on topic and refrain from provoking others. Thank you.
Wait, comments like what? Did he post again? He seemed to be the only one with real legal advice instead of some bogus biblical mandate to "first confront the brother"? This has legal ramifications and real life implications. It would be a tragedy if someone else is molested while we discuss the biblical approach.
RG team, can you state emphatically and clearly that every legal avenue has been pursued, to the best of your knowledge?
Joe, what you may not realize is that “Licensed Attorney” was posting comments under three different names utilizing a fake email address.
I can verify that "Licensed Attorney" is a licensed attorney and I understand his hesitation to post credentials or contact information. He was genuinely trying to get to the bottom of this, as am I. I emailed RG the day this story broke asking them what those in the legal field could do and have heard nothing from them in reply.
I would like to see RG reach out to those in the legal profession so that there can be certainty as to the S of L and the victims (as well as those victims who have not yet come forward) can be accurately informed as to where they stand legally.
(RG can verify that I am using an actual email address)
Please stop using "licensed attorney" over and over. I"m a licensed professional and it"s driving me crazy. If the attorney or you offered help and you got no reply, then they don't need legal help! Give it a rest. Maybe his comment was deleted because this person's rude.
Our sincere apologies to anyone who has emailed and not heard back. We discovered yesterday that we were not receiving emails sent from the contact form. We have removed that form and added a link to the top of the page. Our email address is: contact@recoveringgrace.org.
By way of clarification, the first steps we took after receiving Charlotte's story was to connect her with legal experts that specialize in her area. Only after exhausting those channels (finding out SoL has expired) did she decide to publish her story in hopes that others would come forward whose SoL has not expired. It also should be noted that RG has licensed attorneys on our leadership team.
Moderators -
Perhaps it would be a good idea to incorporate this comment into an edited version of your introduction to this article - make it clear that legal counsel - i.e., Lawyers - have been consulted PRIOR to publishing this article. I am sure there will be more traffic coming to this site and it would be a good idea for new readers to know what steps you took before they dive in - will help cut off people who will harp endlessly on "why isnt this going to court...etc".
And also to make it very clear, maybe in bold font, that Charlotte shared this in the hopes of others coming forward.
Just an idea. Keep up the great work. Stay strong dear ones!
That's a great idea.
I don't think using an alias is negative at all - but posting under several aliases leads one to think they are attempting to be shady about things.
Which really makes the "advice" hold less weight... much less weight.
Will "Licensed Attorney" be continuing to post under multiple usernames to back himself up? Would it be beneficial for us to know the names he is using?
Lol. That certainly makes his credibility less believable.
(My comment is in relation to "Licensed Attorney".)
I'm guessing he was banned. This site seems a little one-sided to me. What do you think?
Thanks for the info, Licensed Attorney. I think the staff at RG can take it from here. As someone who is supposedly so very concerned for the welfare abuse victims, your dismissive and condescending attitude toward this website is very odd.
*of abuse victims*
If Gothard was truly an innocent man who made a mistake or two but for the majority of his ministry followed his own teachings then it would show. But the majority of his former students don't defend him. It appears that most agree that he behaved in ways that make all these stories very possible and very believable. The number of former students who don't believe in these stories are much, much lower than the ones who do believe and who are speaking out against him. It is telling that his defenders are few.
No, Alfred I didn't see Gothard touch a girl's breast, but I did see him behave in other ways that make me think that he would do that. If Gothard had lived his life according to the principles that he taught and according to the standards that he held everyone else to, then I would not feel this way.
Gothard has lived his life in such a way that most of the people who trained under him think he is capable of molesting a teen. So much for avoiding the appearance of evil.
Exactly Hope....too many of us, when reading these accounts, say "AH! So that's why he said, x,y,z....or THAT'S why ...happened" it makes perfect sense to those of us who lived it...so very sad.
Sarah, I was confused at the time and it had been so pushed into my head that Bill Gothard was this godly man who held himself and others to high standards that I wouldn't even allow myself to question what I had seen. What he was teaching and what I had been told about him was not matching up with what I was seeing. I thought it was just me. That there was something spiritually wrong with me that I would even think that Bill Gothard was behaving in an ungodly way.
But then I read stories from others and realized that it wasn't me. It was him. He was not following his own teachings. He was not living up to the standards that he held the rest of us to. Alfred, this is why all these stories are suddenly coming out. It isn't because we are all making them up, it is because we had been blinded by Bill Gothard to what we were really seeing and now the scales have fallen from our eyes and we can put the puzzle together and see the truth.
He should have followed his own teachings and if he found that he couldn't have stepped down from his leadership position.
In addition to what Hope said, men who touch girls breats, feel them up, etc. illegally, are usually pretty careful to make sure that no one sees them! Wouldn't you think? OF COURSE no one saw!
Also look at the pains taken to isolate Charlotte and make sure that she would not be believed. She was Labeled encouragement case. Those of us who lived at HQ or training centers understand the implications of those labels.
Charlotte I am so sorry that the board, housemates, and own mother did not believe you. How painful.
I love that the house mate is speaking up as a witness to the isolation tactics now. GOOD FOR YOU.
Thank you, Charlotte for being brave and sharing your story. I believe you! I am still working through so much pain and anger at my past in ATI and the legalistic way I was raised. It does really shake one's faith to be raised in a cult like ATI and to have your whole view of who God is shaped by one man. Wow.
RG, thank you so very much for bringing all this to light. You are helping me to begin to heal. My parents are still faithful to BG. I want to tell them about this site, but I am scared because I fear their reaction. Thank you again, Charlotte and RG!
Incredible story. This story has everything that Meg's didn't, which is an emphatic accusation that Bill crossed the line into serious sexual harassment. It's a tragedy that all we can do is discuss on a website and not in court. Honestly, this dude is still in ministry, and I can't imagine his penchant for minors and beautiful women has waned. If anyone, anywhere has a story within the statute of limitations anywhere close to as damning as this one, please come forward.
Charlotte, I can't imagine the pain and suffering you've gone through the past 20 years to get back to a normal place. Thanks for sharing your story.
Alfred, the bottom line with you is that you won't believe anything until you've seen it. Most of the people commenting on this site have been personally affect by Bill, either through his false teachings and spiritual guilt, or through inappropriate contact. Like you, I think Meg's story was difficult to decipher fact from fiction. However, the overwhelming comments and stories on this site should give you enough reason to stop defending a person that very well could be practicing pedophile. Give it up.
You know, Joe . . . you can say that . . . until it is your Dad or your son or your dear pastor that has meant the world to you. Suddenly . . . facts matter, a lot. Smoke is not good enough.
And . . . I find is interesting . . . that I am to believe all the accusations implicitly because these are people "personally affected by Bill Gothard". I too have been personally affected by Bill, as has my family, as have many of my friends. I have been attending seminars, following the ministry for 40 years, we have been 20 years in ATI, my son is 10 years at HQ, traveling the globe with Bill, children have served in various short term capacities, including a daughter with the TESOL program in Taiwan for 2 years. Our experience is, then, worthless?
You know the old saying (remember I'm older than you are - maybe old enough to be your mother) that says, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." I also attended a seminar over 40 years ago and several since. I've seen the legalism and the misquoting of Scripture. And you of all people should know that a woman's menstrual period should NOT remind her husband of the blood of Christ shed for our sins. Isaiah says that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags". Menstrual cloths. So how can that remind a man of Christ's blood. The man is obsessed with sexual things if he believes this. That is completely unscriptural. So just looking at his legalism and all the other misquotes of Scripture should cause you to see how this man is not worthy of your praise.
I never even knew he suggested that, Eva, until it was highlighted on this website . . . he is really into attaching new meanings to old "irritations", since we are to give thanks for everything, and sometimes we don't know how. Maybe he was trying too hard. Was that the most offensive thing you recall?
Alfred, I think that's VERY, VERY offensive. It certainly is not Scriptural. And it's a lie. Did you ever go to the Advanced Seminar? I did once (thankfully only once). My son pointed out that phrase to me when he read it somewhere. I didn't believe it so looked it up in my Advanced Book. There it was in my own handwriting (that way Bill Gothard can't be blamed since I might have written it wrong but others had the same thing in their books. And frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about when you start saying things like "....he is into attaching new means to old 'irritations', since we are to give thanks for everything" . What is the irritation here? ME? Or Gothard? Or menstruation? I wish I knew the page number but look through all the pages numbered from 200-300 and see if you find it. I could be wrong since I threw that away. I presume the "he" in the above quote is Gothard. I don't need a new meaning for menstruation. Certainly not from an unmarried false teacher.
My dear pastor/father figure walked out on our church after 25 years without ever looking back. He has not spoken to me or many others in our church since then (3 years ago). He has never met my daughter, never congratulated me on having a child. We have no contact and no closure.
Yes, it was hard. It hurt a lot. I have been there...but eventually, I had to face the fact that he is not the same person he used to be. His mind is blinded by pride and by false doctrine. He is not my father, nor my shepherd- now I reserve those roles for God alone, as I should have done in the first place.
"Facts matter." Indeed, they do. Your experiences are not worthless, any more than the wonderful times I spent with my pastor were worthless. He did teach me some good things, but I can no longer ignore the FACT that the fruit of his ministry has soured. Please, seek God, not man. Don't ignore the facts.
I find it deeply disturbing that no one here seems interested in the facts. If this girl is telling the truth, she needs to tell the authorities. Regardless of how old she is, this information can help others. Her failure to file any sort of criminal or civil claim, and her failure to report this in the proper forum calls her credibility into question.
No one is interested in the facts????!?! I suppose you know for sure that a claim has NOT been filed, or that "Charlotte" has NOT contacted someone to report this?? Do you know for a fact everything that is going on in each of these situations?? I find it deeply disturbing that people are so willing to dismiss the entirety of evidence and testimonies that are presented in this blog simply because it is too painful to admit that they may have been wrong about a man and his teachings...
And you know she hasn't?
Boyd, not at all.... Facts are what we seek--definitly NOT the obscurring of them.
What is distrubing to me is what I DO know about those in ATI and IBLP leadership concerning the topic of sexual abuse--things I know personally. I was in ATI for 19 years.
What I do not know is not nearly the same level of concern to me.
To keep it short and sweet, I'll just say, "Stay tuned."
The first thing the staff at RG did when Charlotte came to them was to encourage her to pursue her options for taking legal action. That having been done, it was discovered that the statute of limitations had expired. Have you actually read more than a smidgen of what has been posted? It sounds as if you're the one who isn't interested in the facts.
It's interesting, and sad, how he KNEW exactly how to pick his victims and how far he could go with each one. .. . the ones who had a sullied reputation to begin with, and how to isolate them further so that IF they ever DID speak out, they would never be believed.
Charlotte, thank you so much for coming forward. You have great courage.
Yes, I agree 100%. He knew exactly what he was doing and who was the most vulnerable of the vulnerable. To further molest a girl who had already been raped by her father? Gothard knew about the rape! He should have been a safe harbor and was her counselor. He is a monster!
And to tell her that she was at fault! I like how you don't mince words, Kevin.
Thanks Lori. His teachings on how to counsel sexual abuse victims become so much more clear now; blame and shame the victim. Make her believe that it was her fault for tempting the person who did it. Given the high place that Gothard held in the minds of these girls, this teaching would have certainly made them feel shame and blame themselves for tempting him. So many of his teachings seem designed to perpetuate what he had going on behind closed doors with these girls.
Yes. That teaching alone is enough to disqualify him from ministry. How cruel and abhorrent.
I am wondering if anyone that worked at HQ remembers my sister, Misty W. 5'5". Dark, shoulder length, curly hair. Freckles. Very spunky personality.
She was one of Mr. Gothard's "encouragement" cases, and I believe, worked in the printing department and also as a personal assistant to him around 1995. I know our parents got special attention from Mr. G when we visited Northwoods.
I ask because she was not the same when she came home, and got heavily into drugs. 2 years ago, she was murdered while helping the police as an informant for her drug dealers. I just want to know, if she, possibly, was a victim of Mr. G, too.
I am so sorry, Marynn. I hope someone will have some information for you.
Hi, Marynn.
I was there in '95, and I vaguely recall a "Misty." However, I wasn't close to her and I'm afraid can't tell you more.
Wow. But how sorry I am to hear what happened to her! I feel for you, and I hope others will be able to shed more light in answer to your question. How devastating to lose a sister like that!
Praying for you in your loss.
Oh, wow, Marynn--I would be asking those same questions if I were in your shoes. Praying for you and our family.
Was she at ITC for a while, as well? If so, I remember her quite well. I am so sorry to hear that she was murdered. She had a vibrant spirit!
A very similar situation happened to our son, Michael. It took us 7 years of heartache before God redeemed Michael out of drug abuse. In our case, it was mental abuse versus sexual. My husband refused to kick Michael out or give up on him. He said, "He's my son." I think Doug's heart went a long way to heal those hurts. It did, however, cause us great hurt. We dropped out of ATI not too long after that and then were cut off from everyone else. So sorry for your sister, Maryann. I know what your family went through.
Marynn,
I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your sister.
When I read:
"She was one of Mr. Gothard's "encouragement" cases, and I believe, worked in the printing department and also as a personal assistant to him around 1995"
"I ask because she was not the same when she came home, and got heavily into drugs."
I got sick to my stomach when I read this. If he touched her, I hope to God someone else knows about it and can come forward.
We know from the account of others, what it meant when you were an encouragement case.
My sister was a rebellious teenager when she went to ATI's Journey to the Heart. She came back a respectful young lady. She called back in the middle of the week and apologized to my parents for her attitude. And no, she was never even slightly molested by anyone there. Mr. Gothard counseled her, and he genuinely helped her. I do not believe he is a monster like people here are claiming.
Witness,
I have taken people to task for years over Bill Gothard and his teachings. When they have a run-in with him or the system itself, they tend to get hurt and begin to consider things more deeply. It's human nature, I suppose. I don't think badly of them. It takes time to learn how the insides of these organizations work and how bad it can easily become.
For me, my dad was a pastor and had let us kids know how bad it can get inside organizations like IBLP--just as a precaution. My parents had been through the mill a few times and wanted us to be prepared. I felt I was prepared fairly well when I went into IBLP, yet I could not see the issues at stake until years later when the wheels came off the cart for me.
Try telling Bill Gothard, "No" once or twice and you'll find out what you are up against. I have. My father-in-law has. My father has. My father also cut funding for IBLP and wrote a letter to IBLP telling them the reasons why.
There are two basic responses:
1. Total radio silence--you get ignored.
2. Bill calls you and you end up getting landbasted.
I was in ATI for over 19 years.
I love some of the people I know who are still on the inside. Experiences do vary wildly, yet there are very common themes.
Enough said.
Maybe IBLP will work out better for you and the family.
I do wish you the best.
"I not believe he is a monster like people here are claiming."
What do you call a man who fondles the privates of a 16 year old girl?
That's great that your sister wasn't molested. But, that is a bit like someone saying: "Hey, Jack the Ripper was a swell guy. My sister when on a date with him and he never cut her up into pieces."
Kevin:
Exactly.
Witness, I know people whose lives were *apparently* turned around by Bill Gothard's ministries but later on, the fruit turned out to be rotten. A very close friend of mine attended the Basic Seminar 10 times. She said her husband came away from attending it saying "I need to get serious" and started leading family devotions morning and evening. But the motivation was rooted in legalism and it cause untold damage in their lives in the long run. Two of their five children had their faith shipwrecked by the fallout and others struggled with never feeling good enough. It turned out the father was an unbeliever. His "I need to get serious" had nothing to do with the gospel but with outward conformity as a means of righteousness.
If your sister has truly changed based on the gospel of God's grace, thank God and thank the people who were there who told her the truth based on the gospel. But I would be careful. If she has changed her behavior based on fear and legalism, it will bear destructive fruit in the long run. Either way, Bill Gothard gets no credit because he is one of the most destructive purveyors of legalism I have ever seen, cleverly mixing truth with lies and subtly, but effectively, perverting the only gospel that both saves and sanctifies.
Witness, God has had a way of working through Journeys. I personally know a few unbelieving young people who became Christians during the Journey and so many came back with testimonies of how the Lord had done a work in their hearts. I think it's obvious that inspite of errors in IBLP, God is still God and when people seek Him and His Word, He is mighty to save. So regardless of Bill Gothard, regardless of these stories, it doesn't change the fact that God changed your sister and so many others who have turned to Him and found abundant life, whether it was at a Seminar or anywhere else.
your sister may have been fortunate not to have fit the profile of girls Bill could easily prey upon. That being said, I would encourage you to enquire of her now and see if anything DID in fact occur that she might not have felt safe disclosing as a young, vulnerable teen.
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"I not believe he is a monster like people here are claiming."
What do you call a man who fondles the privates of a 16 year old girl?
That's great that your sister wasn't molested. But, that is a bit like someone saying: "Hey, Jack the Ripper was a swell guy. My sister when on a date with him and he never cut her up into pieces."
"Charlotte,"
Thank you for your courage. I believe you. I'm sorry none of us were there for you at the time. We were all kept so busy. I never pursued close friendships at HQ because I took seriously Mr. Gothard's teaching on not forming "cliques." What friendships I missed out on, and how horrible that people like you who were hurting were so isolated, and then shamed on leaving. My heart breaks for you.
You are a courageous woman. I'm glad you've found real love and real faith. I pray your story gives real hope to those who were shamed because of others' sins.
Most sociopaths act decently is certain situations. If they were a monster all the time, they would get caught and they wouldn't keep getting away with their evil. It's just obvious that of course they wouldn't wear a flashing neon 'sex offender' sign on their foreheads.
Exactly!
Word is spreading. The first time I googled Bill Gothard a few years ago, I got his website, an IBLP website, Wikipedia and a few other positive ones.
Google his name now and you will still get those, but also a hit for the Recovering Grace site and you will also find:
"Bill Gothard Sexual Pedator" - link below:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/02/bill-gothard-sexual-predator.html
Anyone who is considering ATI or Gothard programs, if they do the slightest amount of due diligence, will now be able to quickly know the truth about him.
Charlotte,
I believe you.
I feel love and compassion for you after hearing all that you have been through. I want good things to happen for you. You have the heart of a Lion. Such courage to tell your story!
You are a victor!
I'm so proud of you honey! Your greatest days are ahead.
Believe whatever you want, but I know enough of the good girls to whom these things happened to unsolicited to rationalize a discounting of their life testimonies.
It's not rationale to allow IBLP to continue as an organization.
I'm not sure where the "umbrella of protection" was, but Gothard was indeed a leaky one.
Moderator - Licensed attorney is the first person trying to figure out an actual solution, why shut him down? Or did you delete a comment from him that was inappropriate?
Yeah he seemed knowledgeable and actionable. Has he had any more posts or information?
All he did was poke a little fun at the "Inquirer" v. "Enquirer" person. Nothing he said was inappropriate.
Are there more stories to be shared soon? I know you have 34 names, but are you going to publish other testimonies that will further establish credibility? Most people do not have the patience to watch this unfold over a long period of time, and I believe you will make a greater impact towards resolution by laying all of your cards on the table at one time. We see all of the comments questioning these girls stories, so please, in the name of justice and protecting the reputation of these victims, just release what you have and silence the critics. I believe its all true, but I don't want to see people like Meg and Charlotte being treated like lying temptresses. The Gothard army will do just that unless you produce enough evidence that they can no longer refute its validity, especially involving things that have happened recently.
Recovering Grace team,
It appears that the window of prosecution is still open, during Charlotte's lifetime, for federal charges. Please see below. Has this avenue been explored?
Child Protection
The child protection section, 18 U.S.C. 3283, permits an indictment or information charging
kidnaping, or sexual abuse, or physical abuse, of a child under the age of 18 to be filed within the
longer of 10 years or the life of the victim.34 Section 3299 (enacted in 2006),35 which eliminates
the statute of limitations in cases of child abduction and sex offenses against children, supersedes
§3283 wherever the two overlap
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31253.pdf
"A federal crime or federal offense is a crime which is made illegal by federal legislation. In the U.S., people can be prosecuted at either the state or federal level. As stated above, the majority of criminal offenses are prosecuted on the state level; however, a "federal offense" will be prosecuted on in federal court."
http://rebootd.blogspot.com/2012/02/understanding-federal-sex-crimes.html
Kevin, the first steps we took after receiving Charlotte's story was to point her towards the proper legal channels. Only after exhausting those channels (finding out SoL has expired) did she decide to publish her story.
Thank you. I did not mean in any way to suggest that a different course of action should have been taken. Publishing her story was absolutely the right way to go. I just really want to see him behind bars, where he belongs and it is frustrating that there would be a stature of limitations on such things. I also don't see that the two would necessarily be mutually exclusive; public exposure and criminal prosecution.
Regardless, the legal channels were exhausted and it is time to warn the Church. I support your decision to go public and, as I have said before, I applaud all of these women for their courage and their desire to help others who may be in danger.
Dear Readers,
I understand the drive to that this the "Matthew 18" route, and I certainly don't want to get into a biblical debate. But, if I may address myself to what a rational expectation might be in this context. What I am suggesting is this: if a person is incapable of experience remorse -- expecting them to "repent" may be unreasonable(?)
"Thousands of us can point to pieces of our selves that we sacrificed to advance that sick man's vision. We lost much of irreplaceable value." For a little backgound: http://www.npr.org/2013/06/19/193099258/inside-the-mind-of-a-sociopath
I realize sociopath will probably be a controversial term here, but let's examine this point by point - who does this remind you of ? Anybody ?
*Sociopaths are great orators. They usually use poetic language and are able to carry on long monologues or stories that are hypnotic and capture the attention of those around them.[4]
*Sociopaths have delusions of grandeur, and oftentimes feel overly entitled to certain positions, people, and things. They believe that their own beliefs and opinions are the absolute authority, and disregard the opinions of others.
Sociopaths are rarely shy, insecure, or at a loss for words. They have trouble suppressing emotional responses like anger, impatience, or annoyance, and constantly lash out at others and respond hastily to these emotions.[5]
Sociopaths are incapable of experiencing guilt or shame for their actions.[8] They rarely apologize for their behavior, and are unaware of the emotional, physical, and financial repercussions of their actions. As a result, they betray, threaten, and harm those around them without feeling any type of remorse.
Sociopaths are manipulative. They constantly try to influence and dominate the people around them, and tend to seek positions of leadership.
Sociopaths are incapable of experiencing love, and likely will not have had healthy romantic relationships in the past.[9]
They are only concerned with their own interests, and use compassion as a tool to manipulate others, but are not genuinely compassionate.
http://www.wikihow.com/Determine-if-Someone-Is-a-Sociopath
when you refer to sociopaths avoid blanket statements such as they don't have a conscience etc. they can and do feel injustice they may be morally outraged when they see someone kick a dog but may feel nothing when abusing someone themselves whether it be by physical violence, mental abuse or other. Sociopaths are not born they become sociopathic. Sociopaths lack empathy yes but they are conditioned to lack empathy.... Wikipedia is not an authoritative source.. Psychopaths are born with an inability to empathize with others that is the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths.
I don't think Bill Gothard is either of those I think he is a very nasty bitter little man with mother issues and narcissistic personality disorder
I don't know that Gothard is a sociopath. I don't know if he's capable of empathy or repentance, but I don't think he'll ever take that route. I do believe it would be very unwise to meet with him in person without an independent mediator, and preferably both a lawyer and a psychologist.
It's important to speak out even if he will never repent. It might prompt someone who is within the Statute of Limitations to report. It might prompt others who can't see legal justice to speak out, reach out to others, and find support. It might prompt others to stay away, and protect other precious children.
I wonder why God stood idly by and let her be raped by her father when she was eight years old.
Did she deserve it?
Is this a rhetorical question?
If you find the answer to your first question, "Why does God allow innocents to suffer and be abused," you will have solved one of the great mysteries of life and Christendom.
I don't have the answer, not completely.
I can guarantee you that Gothard does not have the answer. Instead, he resorts to your second question, "Did they deserve it?"
No child deserves to be sexually molested. Even the question is unthinkable.
The best I can give you is that God allows evil men to prosper. Unlike Gothard, God does not micromanage his subjects and force them to behave, even in relation to each other.
But it is only for a time. Judgement is coming.
I would like to add that atheists often pose this type of question, thought not for an answer but to reinforce why they do not believe in God and to shake the believer up.
They end up saying they cannot believe in a God who allows such evil, war, murder, rape. etc.
But to allow God to stop all the bad stuff, where do they want God to stop? What one might think of as bad, another might not think of as so bad. One might like to drink, and another might think that is bad. One might think extramarital sex ok, and another might think that horrid. One might think nothing of drowning unwanted kittens and another would think nothing of drowning the person who did that. The list can go on and on and change from country to country of what is right and wrong, evil and acceptable. There has to be a standard and God has written it is the Bible, then God has (unlike Gothard) allowed people to make their own mistakes at trying to be good or as bad as they want. Since with billions of people, there would be billions of standards as to what is good, bad or evil, God sent the only standard of Good in His Son Jesus. In the meantime, there is a devil, who is also the best legalist ever seen, who runs rampant over everybody.
There is nothing wrong about being an atheist. Why would it matter if an atheist asked the question?
What's wrong with being an atheist is that, rather than being thankful to your Creator for making you, you are ungrateful and deny His existence. That is a sin worthy of eternal death. But He has shown mercy to all of mankind and sent His only Son from Heaven to willingly die on a Roman cross for our wrongs and rebellion against our Maker. He took the punishment we deserved. The Son of God died in our place, for our sins, was buried and was raised by the power of God on the third day to die no more. All who belive in Him will be saved from their sins and lost condition. This is the gospel ("good news").
The Son of God then ascended to heaven and is now at God's right hand where he will return some day (could be tomorrow - could be any day) to judge the living and the dead. Those who rejected Him will be lost forever in outer darkness and those who received Him by faith alone (not based on our own works)will live with him forever where there is no sorrow, pain or death.
I have always appreciated your comments,Hannah and will tell you that they as well as the eloquence,sories,and hearts,some close, but not all the way to being broken move me to try to post,to put up here yet another voice.The IBLP "machine", was too big too great to face head on.Anyone speaking out against it would be suppressed.Injustice was easily redefined,and compartmentalized,the victims bludgeoned.The machine would go on.But one by one,the cries were heard,by one another,and then by..."GOD"!?Can this be?!Now the factor of truth has circumvented Gothardism,isolating it in an island of darkness.Reject now the testimonies of those here and become blind,look the other way and start down that slippery slope ...Bill Gothard would greatly desire to share his darkness underneath veils of self proclaimed authority.Authority from another kingdom.The eloquence of these voices posted here testify against that kingdom.Thank you again and again and thank you Recovering Grace.Sometimes though,words are not enough.
That is a sick thought to even have, to suggest that an 8 year old deserved it.
I think you're trolling.
God didn't do it a sinful person did
Dear confused Christian. No! She did not deserve it. I too was confused about sexual abuse until I threw off the blinders and false teachings of Bill so aptly illustrated here:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/04/how-counseling-sexual-abuse-blames-and-shames-survivors/
We are born into a fallen world where bad things happen to good people who don't deserve it.
But please be aware of how hurtful your words come across: "I wonder why God stood idly by and let her be raped by her father when she was eight years old. Did she deserve it?" What a horrible thing to imply.
These stories break my heart, and I firmly hope that shining the light of truth is the beginning of the end for the entire ATIA/IBLP empire.
I for one think that posting a story in this forum and format is of much greater value and impact than trying to pursue legal action this far after the fact.
Having observed a very unfortunate local situation with a sexual predator youth leader against whom full criminal legal action was brought, which ended up with dismissal based upon guess what - the Statute of Limitations - I can understand the decision to try this matter in the “Court of Public Opinion” and use the “Power of the Press”. In the internet age those are extremely powerful mediums for unifying support, informing the public, and calling for accountability. It can be the modern version of breaking a story in the New York Times if it gains momentum.
This opinion is from a “licensed” Attorney in the State of California (State Bar # 227479). Good grief, if you are not licensed you are not an attorney…
As for Alfred, who manages to make every thread about himself – check out 1 Corinthians 3:3-8. Because it sounds a lot like you are saying “I am of Bill Gothard”.
As I am scrolling down, here, I keep thinking about something Jesus Himself said. "Call no man father upon earth" (not an exact quote) - "For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." This is one of those instances where Jesus Himself, in the "words in red," actually _said_ not to do something, . . . and people either forget, or, they just ignore, or something . . .
I do not understand the obsession with taking Mr. Gothard to court, or the claims that, if no court action is taken, this website has somehow failed in its purpose.
Yes, it would be great if justice would be served that way. But, call me cynical, I just don't think that is going to happen. In pretty much all of these cases, Gothard has acted in a way that is inappropriate and should have him removed from the ministry, but is not enough to truly bring criminal charges against him. He seems to be very aware of where the line is and is careful not to cross it.
Charlotte's case seems to be the only one (so far) where the line into criminal behavior has been crossed. We've discussed the statute of limitations at length. It's over. Plus, no one seems to be asking Charlotte if she even wants to go through the difficult and sometimes painful process of a court trial. There will be a defense, and they will most likely try to discredit her, and possibly even humiliate her. This is her story, and her pain, and I find it unsettling that no one is stopping to consider what she may or may not want.
I guess my point is, even if court action is never taken, Recovering Grace has by no means failed. I see their purpose as multi-facited. Justice is only a part of it. How many families who are considering sending their young daughters to headquarters right now will read these stories and reconsider? How many young ladies are being spared that experience? How many ATI families are re-examining Gothard's false doctrines and are now seeking truth, REAL truth. And how many victims are now on the road to healing, both by sharing their stories and reading the stories of others?
I believe this website is doing much good, and that good should not be marginalized just because court action may never materialize.
First off, Annie doesn't sound like a very 'independent thinker' if she is suggesting that this be handled with 'meetings'. I have been a victim to 'Christian Cult-like Teachings' before (Bill Gothard's teachings included) and her statements are hardly outside of such the political realms that I've experienced in such institutions.
Secondly, I was a victim to a sexual predator whom used 'Godly verbiage' to cover his covert operations. My father told me that he'd protect me with his life against such filth and when he found out that his 'friend' had done what he did, he ignored it, denied it and then allowed me to be with this predator AGAIN!
My father had a 'meeting' with this 'man of God' and I was abused in a more vile way after that 'meeting'.
The time for 'meetings' is over and he needs to pay for his abuse of authority to those who looked up to him. Victims need not be silenced anymore. The time for punishment is at hand.
I'd be inclined to believe a lot of what's being said here if people were willing to post their names and some way to contact them. Lots of accusations, but they're coming from people hiding in the shadows. I have no idea how to post a picture here, but I'm schlerfs@suddenlink.net. I'd love to know just who I'm hearing all this from. Sounds like a lynching to me.
Steve,
Do you really believe that all these women are making this up? Have you read all the testimonies? The two witnesses to Charlotte's story have identified themselves with name and photo. Charlotte has published her photo. Can you appreciate why victims of sexual abuse might not want to have their names out there publicly? I would think that the last thing that a sexual abuse victim would want to do was to give some stranger her name and contact information.
What we have are witnesses to . . . Charlotte, as a real person, during the time indicated. The "witnesses" cannot witness to any more than that she spent a lot of time with Mr. Gothard, consistent with a great many other "encouragement" counsellees.
Alfred: won't badger you, but if ALL we knew about BG was a sustained habit of meeting with young girls in the early am. hours and late at night, alone: isn't that ,by itself, a big problem, and reason for some kind of intervention ?? Under what circumstances would you allow that with your own daughters ? If this was the entirety of the wrongdoing, then he's done enough to invite censure as a leader.
See Billy Graham and many others for a startling contrast.
Alfred, you have a very serious problem. You are so blindly worshiping your idol, Bill Gothard, that you cannot see the forest for the trees. I seriously doubt you would even think about defending anyone else under the same circumstances. Snap out it.
Alfred,
I thought maybe that your brief pause from the site meant that you were reflecting and waking up to reality. Apparently not.
The cumulative evidence that he is a predator that preys on vulnerable young women is overwhelming at this point. 34 women and counting. 5 women who have written detailed accounts.
And people wonder why this has been allowed to go on for 40 some years, with those who should do something about it and speak up look the other way. You have put Gothard into a place in your life that should be reserved for Christ and Christ alone.
It's true. The witnesses listed in connection to Charlotte's article did not witness the actual crime (if they had, they should have spoken up long ago), and RG never implied that they did. They are witnesses to Charlotte's identity, and to the fact that it could have easily happened. We cannot prove it happened, and you cannot prove it didn't happen. Especially realizing that the SoL has expired and this particular case can not be decided in court.
I think it goes without saying, that sexual predators do not usually call in witnesses to the crime. Most crimes of this nature do take place alone with the victim. In our court system, a man is innocent until proven guilty.
None of this means it didn't happen. Those of us familiar with Gothard's odd patterns of behavior, just had their "aha" moment. The pieces all fit, and it makes perfect sense to us, that this was where those grooming patterns were headed. It is consistent with his visible behavior.
There are many cases of abuse for which there is insufficient evidence to prove it in court. I reiterate, again, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I, for one, had rather err on the side of believing the victim.
If you've ever been told x abuse "didn't really happen to you," perhaps you would begin to understand the pain and shame that causes, to know that people would rather side with a perpetrator vs a helpless victim.
Alfred, Charlotte's testimony, alone without witnesses, had it been given to law enforcement within the time allowed by statute, would have been enough to open a police investigation and, in great probability, an indictment for a warrant for Gothard's arrest. I do not know how the people of Illinois think, but I can assure you that a Grand Jury in my home state would have readily handed down an indictment for arrest in a case like this. I see no grand jury that would want to question the testimony of an abuse victim.
And yet, here you are, doing just that. Please, stop a moment, and consider - what if one of your own daughters had come to you with this information? Would you still be questioning her? Or blindly following the "testimony" of BG?
By the way, I have zero ill will nor hatred toward you, sir. I hope you do not think that from our occasional exchanges. I also do not hate BG, any more than I would actually "hate" someone I would arrest at work. It is just business for me. Break the law, face the consequences.
I assure you that a single testimony like that would never result in a Grand Jury indictment. If so, any number of "troubled youth" could bring endless harassment against the police and case workers and whatnot . . . by fabricating stories. A story is not good enough, not without corroboration.
Giving Mr. Gothard every benefit of the doubt, I can find a way to deal with everything up to actual fondling, groping. That is what "Charlotte" introduced, missing from EVERY other story, so far. I have never known of a predator that didn't more or less follow the same modus operandus with every victim, in ever increasing fashion. Creatures of habit. To have this element missing from every story so far, and all those after - including one overlapping in time - is noteworthy to me. All stories told from the heart, nothing held back. Does that not strike you as odd?
What, strike you as odd that RG purposely led up to this and established a pattern of grooming prior to an accusation of sexual molestation? That they sat on the story for 8 months while they were building a case? Not odd to me, at all. You assume stories are published in the order they are received. RG has just done a good job of connecting the dots for us. That's just good journalism, if that's the word that can be used, here.
Fyi, by my math, the first allegations of sexual harrassment were published before Charlotte's story was received.
I've read enough threads to seriously doubt that this makes any impression, but... what is mind numbingly odd is that someone like Alfred could spend as many hours in front of a bible and still have his standard of what is going too far (fondling and groping). The other odd thing is saying that what we DO know is "wrong".... but..... and then out comes the rationalization. That is really really odd.
Alfred:
Looks like there's several Kevin's on the site so I'm changing my username... but we've spoken a lot before and I pray for you often.
You ask if this disclosure strikes us as odd. What strikes me as odd is your determination to find a smoking gun. What do you expect that to look like? Gothard wouldn't have molested a girl on the stage at a conference. The nature of the crime is he-said she-said. So you have to look for patterns. You seem to be suggesting that because this is the first we've heard of groping and fondling, therefore it doesn't fit the pattern, therefore it's probably false. PLEASE think about that logic for a moment. The Jesus Seminar used the same logic to debunk half the sayings of Jesus ("Jesus couldn't have said this because it doesn't fit our preconceived pattern; it stands alone and therefore it can't be authentic.").
If this was an aberration against a consistent pattern, that's one thing, but Alfred, what if this is the discovery of a pattern? RG says they've identified up to 34 girls? Astounding. We've heard from 5, I think, and one includes molestation. Are you really prepared, Alfred, to say that because the first four didn't include molestation but only harassment, therefore the fifth can't be true? And if so, here's my main concern with your argument: How many stories will it take to convince you there's a pattern? Will one more do it? Five more? When will you decide to start giving some credibility to these girls instead of saying it's likely fabricated and even writing "A story is not good enough, not without corroboration"? Isn't one enough to start asking questions and at least hold out the possibility that her testimony is true?
And one more thing, while we're talking about the discovery of patterns. I was a youth pastor for 14 years. I guarantee that I wouldn't have remained a youth pastor for 14 minutes if I had EVER picked up a female student at 5 in the morning and taken her to my office alone. That is not just poor judgement. That's pastoral malpractice. If I did that ONCE it would be termination-worthy. If I did that consistently (as BG has done), my flock would have every reason to suspect the worst. Please consider THAT as you try to find patterns.
Alfred, how much Professional Law Enforcement experience do you have? I have been at it almost 25 years. The testimony of Charlotte, in conjunction with the corroborating observations of the two witnesses confirming the foundation of her story, would be enough in my state to hand down an indictment. Period. An indictment is not a trial. It would then be up to a jury or judge to determine the veracity of Charlotte's testimony in a trial.
You fail to answer the question of what would you have done if your daughter had come to you with the same information as Charlotte.
Perhaps my failing from my years on the job is that I tend to take the side of a victim more easily than that of a suspect.
Just 5 minutes of internet searching revealed many sex abuse cases with a very simple framework, minimal victims.
This one may be the most relevant to this case since it involves past abuse, with may years having passed since the crimes. Note, the suspect is accused of having "groomed" her victims - something you seem to have no issue with.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/04/california-teacher-accused-on-youtube-arrested-on-sexual-abuse-charges/
I could easily link at least 5 more cases that I have open right now in my browser. All of them with similar amounts of evidence as what has been presented here on RG. Actually, I would say, even less. RG has a list of 30 + victims. The cases I have open have anywhere from 1 to 3.
"Charlotte" if you are still reading this, I am so sorry there are so many people questioning you. It is no wonder so many criminals get away with sex crimes.
We also have a housemate witness that was told not to talk to her or associate with her. Don't you think it would have made more sense to have the girls envelop her in love. She was an encouragement case. Why was Bill the only one to encourage her? Why were her housemates told to avoid her? She was only one person, there were many girls in the house. it makes more sense that there was more of a chance that they would have encouraged her then her bringing them all down.
Kevin, my comment on people hiding in the shadows refers to the commenters. Look a what some are writing! "makes you want to rip the throat out of the one who did it"..."monster"...someone on another of these threads wants to "crucify" Bill. Come on...that's not recovering grace, it's hate mongering. Some of these people owe their heartache to parents who made a demigod out of Bill...I think ultimately he just got in over his head and the whole thing's a tragedy. But I don't believe this is going to accomplish anything except maybe destroying what good the ministry actually has done over the years. Matt. 18 says "take it to the church"...this is taking it to the world. Good luck, folks...I think you're sinking into the very chaos and tyranny you're decrying.
Steve, are you suggesting that because a handful of commenters (Out of the hundreds who comment here) say nasty/hateful things, that you can safely assume that the entire group of people here are sinking into chaos and tyranny?
This is quite a stretch to me.
I don't know how extensively you have read this website, but there have been literally dozens of people who have followed Mathew 18 with Bill, and it accomplished nothing. We are at the step where we must make it public to the church, and since Bill does not accept the authority of any local church body, we are left to no other recourse. Besides, I really don't know that Mathew 18 is the passage that applies anyway. For myself, I no longer believe that Bill is a believer at all, based on some rather scary things he's said in the past, therefore we should be treating him as a false prophet.
(For reference sake, I have heard more than one person say they heard Bill say something about looking for the Holy Spirit, and there was nothing there. To me, that screams unbeliever, even without all the other evidence that is piling up against him.)
Steve,
The overwhelming majority here are respectful and are not saying the things that you refer to. Although, when one considers the level of harm this man did to the most vulnerable, it can be hard not to lash out with such a reaction. I know that I have been angry when I read many of the testimonies, so I really do understand.
Their stories have to be told and people must be warned. There are too many people who have been hurt by this man, not only his sexual predatory actions, but his false teachings. The message needs to get to the church and all need to be warned. If some outside he church also get the message, so be it. I see no reason why they should not be warned too.
Hmmm...Megan & Kevin, there's no "reply" option on your comments so I'll comment on my own in addition to your replies. I stand by my last comment. I've still some further reading to do on this site, but when the comments I've cited are left up, I am left with no conclusion but that recovergrace.org is willing to allow them to stand. It's an open invitation to heap scorn on Bill. It's wrong. Period. I wonder, how many of you have confronted your parents for turning you over to the IBLP????
"I have heard more than one person say they heard Bill say..." Really?? That's not Matt. 18. That's gossip. I'm just not buying it.
Steve, something I've appreciated about RG from the start is the attempt to strike a gracious tone overall (realizing that there is going to be some emotionally heated content and comments from time to time given the subject).
There are certainly some comments that have made me cringe but I don't recall any open invitations to heap scorn on Bill. Maybe I just missed them?
Some of the comments by the defenders of Bill left on here are pretty acidic. Perhaps you see your comments as examples of the tone RG should take? Because your comments seem pretty strong in their own right. Not trying to rude, just direct.
Steve, perhaps I should have specified where I heard it, Samuel Lundmark (I think) left a comment on one of the articles, so it's actually not gossip at all. And, if I remember correctly, he heard this in a seminar, or assembly, or large audience of some kind, so it's not a 'hey, you'll never guess what Bill told me in private' type of remark. The other comment I heard from a different site, where I have no reason to believe that the other person was making it up, but rather confirming his account, having heard it himself.
The comment section is designed so that at a certain point, the reply button option disappears. Your reply is properly placed according to the way this website operates.
You may not realize or intend this, but you are coming across as rather scornful yourself. It would have been better for you to ask, 'hey, has anyone gone to their parents and confronted them about xyz?' instead of insinuating that we haven't even tried to go to them and make things right, (and many of us broken our hearts in the process).
Please excuse me, but I don't think I want to discuss that with you at this point, as I believe my story, which has caused me excessive grief, would fall on deaf ears at this moment.
One last comment, the moderators don't delete very many comments, unless there is something very nasty going on. Freedom of speech, and all that, which is more than can be said of IBLP's facebook page. The moderators are not trying to control the masses. Moderators, please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.
Kevin, this website is couched in gracious words, but when all is said & done, these threads are anything but.
Megan, perhaps the better word is "hearsay"...and I think my words are falling on deaf ears also. I wish you well, but can't say I respect any of this. As I've said: Good luck.
"Kevin, this website is couched in gracious words, but when all is said & done, these threads are anything but."
Steve,
Given the nature of the spiritual and physical abuse of these girls, I think most of them are about as gracious as is humanly possible. I'm not sure what you expect the content of the threads to be- "praise for Bill?" There are already sites that exist to do just that. He did these things to these women- he hurt a lot of people and it is hard to sugar coat the truth of these acts. There are far to many of them to brush it aside as hearsay and just go on as if nothing really happened. That is what a lot of people have done for 40 years, but that ends now.
Kevin, hearsay is hearsay, and any discussion of this whole matter needs to stick to the facts. Are you suggesting I'm brushing it all aside and going on as though nothing has happened? If you are, you're not only wrong, you're getting personal. That's just one more reason I'm starting to think this whole thread sould just go away -- it's just a trial in the court of public opinion, and I'm quite sure it's not what Jesus meant when He said "take it to the church." When you look at Matt. 18, it follows a pattern of involving no more people than is really necessary. This site has gone way over the top, and I've seen enough.
@SteveS: you make some good points, but miss some obvious ones. I won't speak for the moderators, but I'd hope that one goal is to warn potential future victims, to shrink Bill's exposure to more women AND men (men were vicitimized in their own way, also). If that's "over the top", well, I won't shed a tear for that if it means one less young life in the spiritual/emotional ER for who knows how long.
AS for what "good" the ministry has done, that's barking up the wrong tree: many thousands , even millions , who have applauded (and I was one at a IBYC semianar in the 70's) a false teacher ...so what ?? That's fruit, but not the right kind. Testimonials mean, and prove , nothing. His teaching compared to the standard of the word, that means something.
I wish even my own posts were more gracious, but we're all learning how to talk about this kind of thing with the heart and mind of christ. Kudos to the RG staff for leaning to the side of leniency as we learn how to do that, vs. heavyhandedness.
Steve, every parent, every young person considering involvement with IBLP/ATI, should know about this. It should be broadcast from the rooftops, until everyone who might remotely consider working with Gothard, has been duly warned to stay away. RG has not even BEGUN to involve all those who have a right to know about this, and a responsibility to act for the protection of their daughters.
No. No more silence. We've had quite enough of that.
Steve, what church? In regard to Gothard how does one "take it to the church". If Matthew 18 means anything it means that concrete actions need to be taken when one refuses to acknowledge and repent for sins. I take it that you don't dispute that people have followed Matthew 18 up to the point of "take it to the church". So what does that mean in this circumstance.I get that you don't agree with how RG has decided to go about telling these stories, but I don't understand how they would satisfy your admonition. IBLP is NOT a church. You surely can't mean the board of directors. That would be hard to square with the Scriptures view of the Church.
You may be right that some on here are using "hearsay" as evidence, but I think you overlook the overwhelming weight of personal eyewitness testimony that is being offered. If you struck all the hearsay from the site you'd be left with the site essentially as is.
Greg, how do you know what points I've missed? You don't, pure and simple. I have limited my comments to points on which to me are obviously problematic. It seems no one wants to hear any criticism, and it's just being deflected...the very complaint I'm hearing about Bill. What church? Doesn't matter. That you can't answer that question, Shane, is no reason to take this to the street. I stand by my criticism -- and beg to point out the refusal of anyone to take it to heart. What complaint do I keep hearing about Bill? He doesn't listen. He deflects criticism. He throws it back on anyone who dares to challenge him. How can any of you claim to be different?
Steve, is there something that you are trying to say but are not feeling heard? I'm wishing there could be a meaningful dialog here. I keep getting the feeling you came in with your dukes up, so to speak, but maybe that's a misunderstanding?
@steveS: thanks for the reply, my point was that the victims, both present and potential, are as much a priority as Bill, his reputation, his ministry. If this website and others put a big dent in Bill's ministry, but young men and women are spared his abuse, then I'm prepared to say that's a good thing. But I'm no fan of his teaching, and have to agree with Mr. Kirk (A Call for Discernment), Dr.Hobbs and others who have carefully critiqued the 7 Principles, and more.
If you were trying to make that same point, I didn't see it. If you think Mr. Gothard's teaching is a help to many, we agree to disagree on that.
Steve, I'm actually trying to understand what your corrective would be. I obviously don't share your view that RG is violating the direct command of Jesus, but I am committed to being corrected where I'm wrong by the Scriptures. Which typically happens as others point me to the error of my thinking, or persuade me by their thinking. So I'll try once more, realizing that this venue is not the most conducive to mutual understanding because you don't know me and vice versa, and you don't owe me an explanation.
I think if you're going to say "take it to the church"; you have to assert and explain that's not what's being done here. The people here are those who have been affected by the ministry of Bill Gothard, who have others in their prevue that may be affected by the teachings and behavior of Gothard, and granted some folks who are gawking at the spectacle. But these are IBLP "members" addressing the sins of their leader(s). This is "taking it to the church" when the church is a para-church ministry that has such a dense authoritarian structure that the only remaining appeal is to "take to the street" as you say. Were IBLP constituted as the Chruch is to be biblically there would be somewhere else t take the appeal; but it's not.
Hypothetically, do you conceive the possibility of a "church" that is so corrupt that the Christians associated with it are obligated take their appeal "to the street"; to decry the false teachings or corrupt behaviors warning against what is false? I think Nazi Germany is a historic example (And I am NOT saying BG is Hitler!) The only correlation I'm making is that there are actual historic examples where there is no church (as I understand you to mean it) to appeal to.
Also, I think you have to account for Paul's open rebuke of Peter for Peter's false teachings (actions that were not in step with the gospel) regarding the reconciling import of the gospel. Peter's sin was public so Paul rebuked him to his face, but it was also antithetical to the gospel so he told us all about it. He broadcast it for anyone to read. Galatians. I get that you may think that's a stretch, but RG (according to my understanding) believes they are pointing out the false gospel and actions out of accord with the gospel.
Lastly, I think Paul's instruction regarding elders (which Gothard is sort of in the position of though he's not really because IBLP is decidedly not the church) in 1 Tim 5 is also at play regarding this situation. "19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear." There is a time to take it public; when the elder persists. The testimony here is of ~40 years persistence in sin after repeated attempts of bringing 2-3 witnesses.
well said Shane. Good point on 1Tim 5. It is time to take it to the church and warn all who will listen. 40 years of confrontation. Enough. It is time.
I haven't time to answer all this now; I'll be out of the continental US for the next 4 days. I will answer when I get back. Meanwhile: None of you have answered my last question.
@steveS: you left a few questions in the air, just curious which one you consider "unanswered". Is it 1)involve only as many people as necessary or 2) RG really isn't "the church" of matt.18 3)posters who are "deflecting" the way BG has been accused of doing 4)all the above Not trying to badger, just wondering. Have a great trip. (almost typed "tripe"....haha)
My last question was: "How can any of you claim to be different?" No one's answered that.
Matthew S, I'm most definitely not being heard here. My complaint is that these threads go way beyond being non-conciliatory; I've seen "makes you want to rip (his) throat out"; "we need something to crucify this guy", and similar comments. The webmaster is leaving them up, which I can only take to mean (s)he has no objection. And yes, that handful of nasty commenters, as long as they're tolerated, become part of the mob. What does Scripture say about a little leaven?
Greg, I indeed got lots of useful advice out of the basic seminar. Never got involved any further than that, so there's a lot I never saw. But I got a lot of useful information & inspiration from Bill.
Megan, there would be no point in my trying to suggest a way to keep this within the Church -- meaning only amongst believers -- you've already taken it to the world. And, it looks like your strategy has paid off -- Bill's been called on the carpet, the ministry's been in financial decline for several years now, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before this has become yet more fodder for a bloodthirsty press.
You guys enjoy your bonfire. I'm sick of this. At least when it's all over I'll be one person who wasn't chanting "Raze it, raze it, even to the foundation."
The damn is breaking.
Keep getting the word out:
http://dynamicdads.blogspot.com/2014/02/warning-against-bill-gothard-and-ati.html
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/bill-gothard-sexual-predator/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/02/bill-gothard-sexual-predator.html
It is either
"The dam is breaking."
or
"The damn thing is breaking."
or I prefer...
"Dayum, thayit whole dayum thang iz breakin'!"
Sorry lived and taught in Texas tooooo long!
And just to keep this pattern thing going-----
I have noticed a pattern in the way BG writes his stuff- mostly organized like looooooong drawn out lesson plans---details ad nauseum. Trying to follow those lesson plans sure cured a lot of kids of insomnia (and teacher, too.) I learned it is better to teach the students than to teach the lesson.
esbee,
"Trying to follow those lesson plans sure cured a lot of kids of insomnia (and teacher, too"
I'm glad you slept through some of it, lol :)
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Charlotte's story is too tragic and hits so close home for me. It may be a bit off topic, but our daughter committed suicide after coming under the influence of a professor at a local independent fundamental bible college. He used her physically and destroyed her marriage under the guise of a Christian's freedom from the law and encouraging her own personal fulfillment (short version of a long sick story). The college did NOTHING about it on account of technical and legal reasons and we were given the brush off. Students are still not safe there and there is no real accountability for the staff beyond personal morals (again, the short version of another long sick story). If we had been dealing with a secular institution there would have been action taken on specific grounds before the suicide and we would not have been given "biblical reasons" why our questions and concerns were not valid..., until proved otherwise by her untimely death.
The thing I would like to point out is that too often men AND women in positions of power in "christian" institutions believe so firmly in the rightness of their mission to "further God's kingdom" that little details about unfortunate incidents like this along the way can be ignored and suppressed. Supporters of those institutions often want so strongly to believe in the integrity of those leaders that they will not scrutinize how things are run and are reluctant to see evil when it shows itself, especially when it can come dressed as an angel of light. Why were some of these big name purveyors of truth able to get away with sick transgressions for so long? I will not extend by submission here with solutions for the problem beyond saying that I question large organizations with insular power structures. Large organizations become their own raison d'être and join the ranks of things that will not stand in the reign of God. If we look to Luke 17:20b,21, we will see that what we do wherever we are is what will show which kingdom we belong to. No amount of teaching or sermonizing will change what our actions show.
[groan] that's horrible.
The above post is so spot on. The problem behind the problem is the insular nature of religious groups thatsee themselves as the vehicle for pure doctrine, the narrow path, God's end time vision, the "biblical" way tolive. Once the authority structure is set up, there is no getting in or thru (unless daddy says so, and only as far as daddy says so). If leaders are able to say "thus saith the LORD," and cop out.. then all bets are off, it's likely to be large scale public outcry that stops the show, if then.
I'm so sorry for your loss. If you feel up to it, would you mind telling us the name of the Bible college so that we might be aware of them and avoid them at all costs.
I am so sorry for what you experienced, crying father. :(
Those who want to know the name of the college will have to ask the moderator for my email and ask me directly. I want to be careful because others who have no desire to revisit this will be dragged into it if someone wants to make things ugly again. Suffice to say that the institution is well known in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania where I live and I hear that they very recently expanded to another campus in an adjoining state.
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From To: Woody Allen, Bill Gothard, and my violators | Sojourning Soul
"You think that by manipulating, taking advantage of the weak and the young that you were powerful? That is like a human stomping on an ant — it’s an act that only preys on vulnerability and fragility of someone weaker. You are not strong, you are not attractive, you are not powerful, you are not loved for what you have done."
Amen!
I remember in the early 1980's that Bill Gothard's brother was fired from the organization when he had sexual relationships with several of the secretaries then. See "Christianity Today", Feb. 6, 1981.
Charlotte, I am so sorry you had such a horrible, creepy, disgusting experience with your Dad and with Bill Gothard. Extreme fundamentalism in any religion is very scary. May you continue to find freedom, courage, and peace as you heal. You have been given the great gift of being set free from fundamentalism.
My name is Jennifer. I grew up going to "Gothard Seminars". Went to a counseling Seminar with over 300 other girls up in the "North Woods" and was a pilot student of ATIA. I am not what people describe as a "Gothardite". I met and knew plenty but I'm not one of them. After many encounters with IBLP and trips to Headquarters I never saw any behavior that appeared to be the slightest bit inappropriate. I cannot speak to "Charlotte's" experiences but can say that as for my own, this is not what I have seen him to be. I've seen comments about "witnesses" who by their own account didn't really seem to witness anything. While I do think that it is important to take seriously any accusation of abuse and that all accusations should be investigated and if credible, prosecuted. I don't believe that every man accused is automatically guilty simply because he was accused. And not every woman making that accusation is automatically to be believed. I am not calling "Charlotte" a liar. She may be telling the truth, she may not be but I do find it suspect that while she is willing to accuse him and publish his name she goes by an alias. I find this whole thing very disturbing as you all do, but I've seen no proof of these accusations and am going to reserve judgement either way until that happens. In any case, I'm not ready to throw Bill Gothard under the bus just yet.
Jennifer, I would encourage you to revisit your position. There is a temptation to say that since one cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Charlotte's story is 100% accurate, then we must give Gothard the benefit of the doubt. In the court of public opinion, we can go with a preponderance of evidence, and I would say that 34 different women alleging similar creepy perverseness would be sufficient for me to believe she is telling the truth. And even if she wasn't, there are waaaaayyy to many complaints to say that nothing happened and that Gothard should continue in his position of ministry.
Jennifer, only once you have walked in her shoes would you really understand the reasons for having an alias. I also have a story on here under an alias. I did not really want to drag my parents through the mud, just expose how Gothard's teaching affected me.
Charlotte mentions how her parents treated her, but does not name them. I think this is admirable. She is not taking revenge on them, but she is coming forward in an attempt to name and stop a perpetrator from continuing to harm.
There may be other reasons as well. I also used an alias because I have clients and while it is unlikely for them to look me up on the internet, if they do, they don't need to see my past involvement in a cult. Charlotte has a normal healthy life now, she does not need to expose herself and her identity, although it was VERY BRAVE for her to show her picture. WOW. my hat goes off.
You and anyone else casting doubt because she has not named herself (even though anyone who knew her then can recognize her) has not really thought this through or considered things from her perspective. I would encourage you to do so rather than cast stones.
I do not understand your arguing "I never saw any behavior that appeared to be the slightest bit inappropriate. I cannot speak to "Charlotte's" experiences but can say that as for my own, this is not what I have seen him to be. I've seen comments about "witnesses" who by their own account didn't really seem to witness anything."
While astounding, it is not impossible. Bill's deeds were done in darkness and and in secret ("...that what happened between us needed to stay between us. I was never to tell anyone else because it was our little secret—was that clear?"). His actions were calculated and careful; it's little wonder that third-party "eye-witnesses" with are hard to come by, but that does not make her account any less true, especially in light of so many similar experiences by other women.
Jesus tells us to "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops" (Luke 12:1-3).
That time has come.
Where there is smoke, there is usually a fire... 34 smokes is too many smokes to ignore - at the most conservative level.
I think that it is brave of you to speak up and you should ignore any and all criticism or picking apart of your story. Be confident in Christ. I have a small FB group called ATI Overcomers and you're welcome to join. We don't gang up on people but encourage one another.
My heart broke when I read this, Charlotte. I was there at the same time as you with my parents. We lived off campus until our year was up in April of 1993. I worked in the Publications Dept with my dad, but early on in our time at HQ (May 92) I asked a few times to work in the landscaping dept, since gardening is a passion of mine. I remember seeing you around but I lived so apart that I didn't hear much of what was going on. I was basically trying to stay above water in my own house! I wish I could have helped you! I too was preyed upon by BG, but told him he was a manipulator so he tried to drop me like a hot potato. I'm very happy to hear that you are recovering grace in peace!
My family enrolled in ATI in year 3 or 4. I myself spent several years in the Indianapolis Training Center. I personally saw BG holding the hand of his assistant (I'm sure this girl would be one of the 30+ who RG knows about, the fact that I remember the girls name, it must have left quite an impression on a teenager) I thought it strange but I was a kid. As a 40 yr old adult now I see his pattern clearly. My mom, who sees his teachings as off base now was still crushed when I pointed her to Charlottes story. The kids that lived around Bill saw things parents didn't.
There is no reason why this thread is still going with doubts as to the plausibility of his actions. I know holding hands is no crime. It was grooming and what can now be seen as a pattern. The stories that made BG bigger than life and God's direct messenger were many, ie his electrocution I'm Russia and survival.
This world offers plenty of landmines for kids. He will not be one of them for my kids.
Ryan
Ryan: This hand-holding . . . was it in secret, something you discovered accidentally . . . or out in the open? Bill has a habit . . . of working in front of large, uncovered windows . . . which is why people would see him in his brightly light office late at night with this young lady or that. I expect you to say "out in the open", because that has been his policy. Most of the uncomfortable "long handshakes" have been in front of groups of people. I think he really has thought that "OK", an expression of "fatherly devotion". He has gotten irritated when others brought it up, not because it was known, but because he didn't see it as a problem.
Alfred, you posted:
He (BG) has gotten irritated when others brought it up, not because it was known, but because he didn't see it as a problem.
Wake up Alfred, OF COURSE he didn't. Probably still doesn't. Perhaps never will. And that tells us what, exactly ?? I guarantee you, BG will be "irritated" , at this stage in the game, probably daily. He might have to go see a pharmacist to not be. The real question is, why do YOU take what BG says as the standard ?? Is the new rule, if BG says he meant nothing by it, then no big deal ?? Would you ever follow this way of thinking in YOUR family ?? I hope not.
Sorry if this comes out cranky.
Well, greg r, it points to someone that looks a tad different than painted in this current account, a man who is doing things in secret, and swearing victims to silence. You can understand why I reserve a bit of skepticism. That is NOT an aspect of any account posted on this website up to this point.
OK, Alfred , I guess my turn again; just because SOME of BG's behaviours were in public, handshakes and ???, does NOT mean that similar, but creepier, things did NOT happen in secret. We have first person accounts of what happened in secret, nothing you've said makes that less likely to believe: do you really think BG would be expected to act just as creepily in public as in private ??
Part of me wants to think that maybe you are just naive, look again at your insistence on "giving him every benefit of the doubt". This does not look like virtue to me, but I confess, I don't know you well, to put it mildly.
And here is what is so difficult again with "proof". If these encounters are witnessed (rather than stumbled upon) then they are considered to be "out in the open" as if that was part of his transparency policy. Yet, if it was behind closed doors then we disregard as we have no witnesses... This is how these things continue to go on. I know what it is you are looking for. But, in the end, you may never find any proofs convincing enough for you. We lived at ITC, OTC, ELMS and Eagle Springs for nearly 3 years. To put that experience into words is virtually impossible. Generally people either understand as they have lived it as well, or people cannot understand no matter how well it is described. I understand what these ladies are saying.
I pray that you won't be blinded to it for much longer. You have a wife, daughters. If these things were going on with your daughters and wife- footsie and intimate conversations and "counseling" and special attention... This would not be ok, right? For those of us that have experienced abuse - at so many different levels, please recognize that this is not ok.
I say these things earnestly. I understand what you said about the seminar changing your life. But Jesus changed your life. And he used BG. In spite of all of the failings of BG and his IBYC/IBLP/ATIA. If anything good came out of it, it was the mercy of God.
Alred, step in here and clean this reply up, but, @Amanda: the whole line of questioning Alfred on "you wouldn't let YOUR daughter do.... or "you wouldn't like it if YOUR daughter was in this situation.." is typically unresponded to. Make this the exception , Alfred, I've seen a dozen or more of his responses, and I haven't heard a direct reponse to this kind of question , at least not to my knowledge.
I think it brings the reality of things a little too close to home. You still have a least one daughter still working there, Alfred ??
What part of "the Bill Gothard I know is different from the one in the story" do you not understand, greg r? I have young ladies who would be immediate in letting me know anything that was distasteful let alone wrong. As deeply as we respect Mr. Gothard we have cultivated an "attitude", believe it or not.
Maybe it was a Southern California thing (where we lived for 20 some years), but the ATI families there routinely adapted, adjusted, replaced motivations from "on high" to suit our families. Our "council", as the grouping was called, almost never watched the monthly video sent down. We spent the time talking about our families, the things that worked, the things that didn't. Our wives were part of that process through most of the time we were there. The "power" of the program rested in our hands, as we saw it, not with Mr. Gothard. Our leader for many of those years refused to send his (ultimately) 14 children to headquarters or any other "opportunity" . . . simply felt that was his job, to disciple them.
We just haven't seen things the same way as other ATI families. Maybe that is why we have survived. And why we can look - wide-eyes - at all that is going on and neither weep nor laugh.
Every time I say this, I get reviled. Waiting for Eva's wagging finger . . . whatever went on before our time, I have NO qualms about my young people serving the ministry. Not based on our experience, at least. We have our own track record. If I did, they wouldn't. We would leave.
I am reserving a lot of judgment. I am really interested to know how the landscape will look in 10 years or so . . . and especially how it will look in eternity.
The world is turned against Bill Gothard. The fury, the laughter, the reviling knows no bounds. He is celebrating his 50th year in ministry . . . this year. Could be the worst year of his life. OK, I guess I feel like crying, and I may. Is Jesus in on this? Don't know . . . don't think so, but, again, I reserve judgment. We shall see.
Alfred, you said:
> the Bill Gothard I know is different from the one in the story
Could it be that you don't know the "real" Bill Gothard?
I don't know you, and I don't know Charlotte, or anyone else who has posted their their "version" of Bill Gothard. But I can see there is a growing body of evidence that paints Bill Gothard in a very bad light.
To my mind, you have 2 choices:
1) Either you know the real Bill Gothard, and this body of evidence is a giant conspiracy orchestrated by the Devil in order to discredit one of God's faithful servants.
2) Or you don't know the real Bill Gothard, and instead you know just a version that he wanted you to know... a facade or false front to hide his real identity.
Choose 1 or 2, it cannot be both ways.
Alfred, I am not your daughter, so I obviously cannot know what their reaction would be if Gothard came on to them, played footies with the, insisted on sitting thigh to thigh, etc. I am hoping your daughters would feel comfortable telling you about it.
But I do have to wonder if they feel that you would take it seriously. We have heard testimonies of many Christian young woman who have, at the very least, been made to feel very uncomfortable in BG's presence. And you have written off their internal warning that this man's intentions were not good.
Alfred, I am a young woman and I know that God has given us this internal warning for a reason. It is there to protect us from preying men.
There is a real danger when a girl's father teachers her that it is okay for a "man of God" to touch her and talk with her in ways that make her uncomfortable. She is learning that she should not follow her God-given instincts and that her father would likely not believe her, or would tell her she is mistaken, if she were to share that a "man of God" made her uncomfortable.
I know of far too many innocent young people who have been sexually abused by people who were supposedly in a position of religious authority over them. Far too many of them were not believed when they tried to share what was happening to them.
I truly hope your daughters never have been, and never will be, in such a position. That no pastor, employer, etc. will ever take advantage of them. But speaking as a young woman with 4 sisters, I can tell you that the chances that none of your daughter will never be in this position are extremely low.
Will they be prepared to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit telling them that something is wrong? Or will they fall prey because they have been told not to listen to the warning?
Let's say that there was a sexual predator loose in the extended family . . . and it deeply affected several people that I hold dear. How do you think my wife and I would treat such things? Casually? Hopefully? What do you think?
We can say that because it happened. I have, from the earliest chance I have had talked openly to my children about such things. Nobody is to EVER take liberties with them. Even to the point of telling them that, should someone swear them to secrecy, make me the first person to tell. Scream loudly, figure it out later.
No, we do NOT take this lightly.
Maybe . . . maybe that gives you some clue as to what danger we think they are in with Bill Gothard. There are things that are inappropriate . . . no need for hand-holding and footsie. "Cut it out". Beyond that, I am obviously not convinced of Charlotte's allegations of sexual contact - at this point. There simply is NOTHING else I have seen to indicate that. I assure you, though, that it will be addressed, one way or the other.
Alfred, I'm not wagging my finger at you - just shaking my head at your refusal to see what is going on. You are one of BG's supporters so of course he is not going to do anything to your "young ladies" (how come you don't refer to them as your daughters? 'Young ladies' could be anyone.) He needs you on his side so of course he is not going to hit on one of your "young ladies". And if he did, would you believe them? He needs a few people on his side (at least from his standpoint). And probably in ten years BG will no longer be among the living. I suppose it's possible but not very likely, unless The Lord gives him more time to repent. I've heard that BG does not want this ministry to continue after his death. I don't have any idea if it's true or not but if it is then my only question is "WHO GETS THE MONEY?"
thanks for the quick response, Alfred. My best GUESS at what you mean by your first sentence is "because the BG that I know is NOT like the BG of these stories, my daughters would be in no danger..." is that a good take on your first sentence ?? I'm glad that your daughters know enough to report anything questionable, sounds like you and your daughters are close. Many dads could not say the same.
I think the landscape will change a lot within months, that's my hunch. Keep in mind that these are Jesus loving brothers and sisters at RG who have taken up this cause. Yes, they could be wrong (always a possibility), but right or wrong, they are not "the world", they are the body of Christ.
That is possible, of course. But . . . I KNOW the Lord is real . . . He is in charge . . . He loves us . . . I know He loves Bill too, just as He loves everyone that has been associated with the ministry, all those that have been hurt. He hasn't spoken yet . . . I have heard so many voices . . . I want Him to speak. He will speak.
Speaking of speaking - if BG is so innocent why has he not spoken out and tried to clear his name.
The silence is super fishy.
He has been away, fasting for 40 days in the Northwoods. Just got back, I think I heard.
Medically, it is nearly impossible for an 80-yr-old man to fast for 40 days straight. You might want to double-check that fact.
Was that fasting at the facility where so many young women were abused? It's not an isolated cabin where no one else is it sounds like. Even The Lord Jesus was weak and needed the ministrations of angels when he fasted for 40 days. And when did the 40 days start? I don't think this latest set of posts has been going on for 40 days so why was he there - not because of this RG site. That sounds a little fishy to me. But then I'm not in the inner circle.
I was reading about cult leader Jim Jones today. When I read this it sent a chill through my spine. Sound familiar?:
"As part of his teachings, Jones discouraged sex and romantic relationships. He, on the other hand, had several adulterous relationships, including one with a church administrator"
http://www.biography.com/people/jim-jones-10367607?page=2
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. "
-Lord Acton
It is the same with FLDS leaders who prohibited other men from taking wives and then married more themselves, notably Warren Jeffs. In the Branch Davidian cult, David Koresh strictly segregated the men and women while taking young girls as his "brides."
Lots of parallels. Gothard seems to favor the young girls, as was the case with Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.
It just dawned on me how ironic it is that BG has PhD after his name. Higher education and degrees were never viewed favorably. I looked into the university that gave him his PhD, LBU. It's almost comical. I have a great color printer, not sure what's stopping me from offering PhDs.
Alfred,
The older we get in life the harder it is to admit when we have been following a path that is not as it seems. My Mom is 61, had a reversal and 5 more kids back in the day. My parents were all in. Her life experience and knowledge of human nature won't let her dismiss the personal stories that have emerged. I'm sorry you don't see the evidence as most everyone else does. My family is willing to extend an olive branch to you and send you all our old character sketch books and any other IBLP material we may have left.
Ryan
@Ryann Sapp: noticed that myself, what did the "campus" of said PhD factory look like... simple sales, bro: a "Dr" helps with the sales and fundraising; interesting also that at least two prof.s on the Wheaton grad school board did NOT think his IBYC curriculum was any good... hmmmm... would love to hear their side of that story.
Louisiana Baptist University is an unaccredited theologically conservative Christian university, founded in 1973, located at 6301 Westport Avenue in Shreveport, Louisiana
and exactly the kind of place that BG can look up to: it's ONLY accreditation is from a Baptist consortium of churches (not trying to besmirch Baptists , here) that have a certain mindset. No other accreditation is wanted, or sought. Secular education, the arm of the devil, and all that..
Did you answer my question, Ryan? You said you observed hand-holding with assistants. Was this in public or private?
Again . . . give me credit for making it up to HQ on a somewhat regular basis, having a son on staff that lives there (10 years), works closely with Mr. Gothard, traveled the globe with him, sees whatever there is to see. Allegations against theoretical people are easy to come to, sort of like watching TV shows. When they are real people that you know and care about, well, not so quick.
Alfred, be very careful here. Just as Charlotte cannot 'prove' her story is true to everyone here, so you will be unable to 'prove' that it is false. You are doing your best to provide suspicion of the truth of accusations of impropriety by BG, but the burden of proof against the 30-some accusations is going to be difficult for his supporters. He has plenty of true believers like you that will vouch for him, but sycophants don't prove truth. I've been through a very unpleasant time with another "christian" institution, see my earlier post if you are interested. I was on the side being told how to do it God's way (which turned out very badly) and I heard the true believers defending what had been done after the fact.
There always will be both sides when it comes to matters that deal with spiritual beliefs and in these types of cases we naturally will believe the one we most sympathize with. Or get a paycheck from. While this blog is not a court of law, I don't think that is what is intended either. It is about exposing the dark underside of those who proclaim that they have a direct word from God or a deeper understanding of spiritual things than mere laity and as such wield great power over those who want to be assured of the rightness of what they believe or simply want to be told what to believe. I have trouble seeing much accountability to the laity by such leaders. I have heard plenty of evidence of accountability by such leaders to an inner circle but when that's the case I smell something rotten and suspect it is time that some things be brought to light.
I agree, it is a he said/she said situation. That said, I don't think I have ever seen sexual impropriety like alleged above done out in public. I also have seen a man framed by a woman in the secular workplace and it went badly for him because of political correctness and the lack of witnesses either way. By the same token I have seen those in power take advantage of the powerless and get away with it.
Somewhere above I think someone ascribed all these accusations to the work of the Devil, or maybe that was on another thread something like this one, whatever. Either way, those kind of statements make me scratch my head. Methinks the devil is being credited with too much power or God is taking a bathroom break and not paying attention. Or perhaps the god that is being proclaimed by IBYC and its successors really isn't as powerful as his enemies if he can't keep this kind of thing under control.
When someone makes a reputation damaging accusation against a person, it is vital that they are prepared to "prove" it . . . or not post it. There is a reason why there are defamation/slander/libel laws . . . not to shield the guilty, but to protect the innocent. "Charlotte" has a responsibility to stand to her accusations, since they have the potential to do a great deal of damage. I presume she is prepared to do that.
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So you, Alfred, are still set on the phrase Bill told you in person, that "I have never seen or touched the private parts of a woman." If that is what you're hanging on to, unfortunately this story doesn't really change anything for you. What he said is still technically true. He didn't 'actually' touch "Charlotte's" breasts or vagina as all indications from the story point to him groping her over her clothes. Pretty sad, isn't it? Seems like Gothard put a lot of thinking into his little phrase so he could still be 'technically' correct. That is, if nothing more comes out in further stories... Probably one of the many lies he told himself to make his actions 'OK;' "Well, I didn't really touch her privates..." Totally disgusting!!
Shannon: I see no difference between clothes or not clothes . . . for this purpose. That is not a distinction I would allow.
@Shannon wehr: on a similar note: the email that BG said to set up a meeting mentioned the girls "painful memories.."" how slippery is that ?? not even the beginnings of any real admission, just that "oh, it pains me to think that THEY remember it that way..." call me jaded,but I think that word "memories" is lawyer-speak for "I'm not saying that I actually did anything.." ewwww..
Yes, greg r, that's what I've thought since first reading Alfred's account of what Bill told him. It sounded like he basically admitted to doing everything but touch a woman's privates. Not sure that's very believable at this point. I'm glad that you, Alfred, see no difference between clothes or no clothes. May God yet fully open your eyes...
His answer to Alfred's question seems extremely Clintonian to me. If the allegations did not involve seeing and touching the genitals of women, why would you bring that up in such a statement? It is a most odd way of answering a question. It is essentially a non-denial, denial. He never said that what the women are accusing him of is untrue, and makes some blanket denial, denying something that no one ever said.
Hello everyone, I was wondering if "Charlotte" would be willing to testify in another court hearing?
Would Charlotte's mother be willing to testify?
Why have none of the witnesses actually seen the abuse?
Why has Charlotte not given her full, real name?
Why did she wait 20 years to report this?
Why has she not taken someone she trusts and walked right through the front doors of the IBLP center and confronted Bill?
Just a few questions as I ponder this story. I'm not saying I don't believe her, just a few things I'd like answers to.
First off, Charlotte: May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you now and always. May you know His peace that passes all understanding, and may you past experience with this wolf in sheep's clothing drive you that much further into the arms of our loving Shepherd, Who WILL hold this wolf accountable one day.
As I'm reading through all these comments, feeling the emotions from every angle, acknowledging the anger, and recognizing the validity of those emotions, I too find myself calling for "his head on a platter," both legally and spiritually.
However, while I don't know anything about pursuing legal action against BG or his "ministry," I think we, as believers and followers of Jesus Christ need to remember that this man is obviously a false teacher…a WOLF in sheep's clothing…and one who apparently has a knack for avoiding true, biblical accountability.
If nothing else, we CAN take comfort in knowing that BG *will* answer for his sin at some point in time. Either the Holy spirit will convict him of his need for salvation by *grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone,* and he will get saved - thus, leading him to repentance - or he will sadly die in his sin and answer to God after it's too late.
While only God can see the heart, it doesn't sound to me like Bill Gothard is truly saved. He appears to trust in a works-oriented gospel and appears to avoid true, biblical accountability. This appears to be a pattern with him (30-40 years now?), which demonstrates a *lifestyle* of an unrepentant, unregenerate heart.
So while the damage he has done is most definitely outrageous, and his actions have left "shock and awe" in the wake of so many lives…I believe it's appropriate to say, "who's surprised?"
I pray that stories like these, would remind us all of how dangerous it is to put our faith in a man over Christ…and in their words over the Word of God.
"I pray that stories like these, would remind us all of how dangerous it is to put our faith in a man over Christ…and in their words over the Word of God. "
Sarah,
I agree. We have seen time and time again the devastation that occur when people put their faith in a man over Christ.
Yup. "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." Psalm 118:8
According to Titus 1:6 and 1 Tim 3:2, one of the qualifications of a leader/elder in the church (or para-church organization for that matter), is to be *above reproach.* I think that is the single, overarching qualification of which the other qualifications support. That is, he must be a leader who cannot be accused of anything sinful because he has a sustained reputation for blamelessness.
Biblically, Bill Gothard should have stepped down a long time ago.
However, IF he's not a true believer, IF he is not saved, then it should come as no surprise that he has continued to live in a state if sin and disobedience to the instruction of the apostles.
Sad? Yes. Shocking? Sadly, no.
Only God can see the hearts of man. (1 Sam 16:7) But we are called to discern by the fruits of man (Matt 7:15-20).
Admittedly, I was never personally involved with Gothard or his "ministries," but my husband was for a short (thankfully) period of his life before I met him. However, going only based on what I can observe as an "outsider," at best Gothard is a Christian living in disobedience (at least in this area of his life). He has much to answer for. :-/
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Is it me, or does Gothard strike anyone else as having a scary, "Warren Jeffs" control-like mentality?
Has this man EVER faced any of his accusers in an effort to set the record straight?
If not, isn't is obvious that this man is a dangerous cult-like dictator?
Koolaid, anyone...? (Can we say Jim Jones...?) :-(
Alfred Posted:
Alfred Corduan February 14, 2014 When someone makes a reputation damaging accusation against a person, it is vital that they are prepared to "prove" it . . . or not post it. There is a reason why there are defamation/slander/libel laws . . . not to shield the guilty, but to protect the innocent. "Charlotte" has a responsibility to stand to her accusations, since they have the potential to do a great deal of damage. I presume she is prepared to do that
Alfred: who says she's NOT prepared to prove it ?? Who says that what she already said isn't enough proof ?? Proof for whom, you ? Charlotte is obeying the defamation laws: she stands ready to be tried if, and when, Bill and friends want to bring that legal action about. That's not going to happen , because Bill would rather not have all this , and more, as court record.
You are a strange guy, Alfred, I would have thought you would have argued that a brother is NOT to take another brother to court (not that I think that scripture applies in this case, it doesn't...) Now you are saying she's constrained to take legal action: based on what scripture ?? Bill's "reputation" is , and should be, the LEAST of anyone's concern right now, how about the truth instead ??
I assume that some people's sensitivities will be offended by this article. It's very raw, but very real and heartfelt from a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. But I think she has some really good things to say:
"This is the enduring story of rape culture, the eternal lie: Give us the perfect victim, and we will believe you! That’s all they’re asking for—just one perfect victim, and then we can talk about all of this rationally! Send us someone we don’t have so many concerns about! This is a great deceit, and it is borne out of a cultural narrative that has no place for listening, only a place for victim-blaming, only a place for reinforcing stories that do not too terribly upset our Friday night movie binges." (http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/02/04/make-believe-survivor-childhood-sexual-abuse/)
We need to be better listeners and supporters of those who have been through inconceivable trauma. It's easy to sit in the seat of Moses and pass judgment on those who have been abused. But it's far more difficult to actually pull up a seat and listen with compassion.
greg r: Sadly, though, I have witnessed grievous - and ultimately false - accusations made from one person against another . . . even telling an elaborate hoax on a TV talk show. This sword has two edges, it cuts both ways. Abuse on both sides. I allow for prejudice on my part given that I have really appreciated my dealings with Mr. Gothard, my family has been greatly blessed . . . but it remains that this woman's accusations, unlike ANY of the others, stands to do permanent and irreversible damage to the ministry.
I know it makes people mad . . . but I can find a way to deal with the other stories that have been told. What Bill allowed to happen in 1980 was very wrong . . . and it is my opinion that the lesson of “openness and brokenness” that is preached was never applied. The attempts to resolve have not dealt with the root of what many have complained about, pride, callousness . . . indifference . . . unwillingness to openly admit failure without spinning it. The lack of normal boundaries with young ladies is also wrong . . . would speak to pride in ignoring the concerns of others, maybe a basic gullibility. Not understanding “the way of a man with a maid”, as Solomon refers to it.
But Charlotte has entered new ground. Nobody – so far – has accused Bill of sexual contact and of deliberate coverup. If true, it completely changes my perception of the man. This accusation has to be addressed, either to confirm or to gain a retraction. So . . . no . . . the story has to be scrutinized.
It would be one thing if there were corroboration of ANY kind here . . . even people she unsuccessfully tried to tell about it when it was happening or shortly thereafter. The fact that it now surfaces, especially in the light of her acknowledgement that she could not recall serious sexual abuse perpetrated by her own father until 15 or more years after it happened . . . it gives just cause to question this story. The account, as given, cannot stand without some confirmation.
And with regard to taking Christians to court . . . have been pondering that in recent days . . . I am not sure that applies to criminal matters. THAT admonition has to do with “defrauding”, clearly spelled out by Paul (1 Cor. 6), things where we suffer loss . . . monetary, affection, support . . . things you would sue for. Criminal matters are specifically given to the government to judge . . . child abuse/molestation, spousal abuse as examples.
When it comes to defamation, here the name of Jesus Christ is attached to the matter. All Christians take a fall if Bill Gothard falls, for Jesus name is squarely attached to him and the ministry. If guilty, he must be held accountable for it … if not guilty, for the sake of the name of our Lord, he needs to be cleared. We all have a solemn responsibility to see to it that one or the other is done.
"but it remains that this woman’s accusations, unlike ANY of the others, stands to do permanent and irreversible damage to the ministry."
"What Bill allowed to happen in 1980 was very wrong"
You consistently use the language of victim for Bill, and the language of aggressor with the girls he hurt. Bill is not a victim. He is a wealthy, powerful man who was further enabled by yes-men to cover up a lifestyle of luxury and abuse. The weather man is not at fault for me having to shovel my driveway just because he reported the snow was coming. He didn't make the snow, he just reported it. These girls and RG didn't make the problem, they are just reporting it.
"All Christians take a fall if Bill Gothard falls, for Jesus name is squarely attached to him and the ministry."
That is actually a false statement. All Christians take a fall when wolves in sheep's clothing devour precious lambs while the rest of us stand idly by. I really wonder if you have put Bill Gothard in the place of Jesus Christ in your heart and are committing idolatry. Regardless, you need not fear about the church. Jesus said he would build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Amen to both your statements Matthew, and I notice how Alfred carefully ignores these.
Sad how these things get turned on their head in the minds of some people, portraying the victim as the aggressor as you said, but then, great example of a brainwashed cult member.
Alfred: you are probably exhausted from posting replies. Thanks for the pingback.
You didn't really answer one of my major points: NONE of these women necessarily MUST take BG to court in order to "be responsible" or get the truth out. I'm sure the would love to see him prosecuted, but that might not happen, and if it doesn't , that could be for many reasons not having to do with him being guilty or innocent. As matthew mentioned, Mr.Bill is a wealthy man , with a very competent legal staff, if there has been defamation here, I'm sure that Bill can afford a big, and thorough trial.
I"ll agree that this whole thing COULD be a hoax.... and I could have a secret benefactor who will this weekend win the 300plus million lottery and share some of that wicked spoil with me..... I think you catch me drift.
We agree to disagree about what is, and isn't corroboration. I think Ruth's story, among others, offers VERY strong corroboration. I"m sad (not angry) that you don't see it that way, you seem to be a man that holds the standard of proof just barely out of your reach, while asking "where ?? where ??"
Thoroughly disagree about the "gullible" thing, although he certainly cultivated a taste for gullible girls, I know that sounds crude and vulgar... walks like a duck, etc.
Some day, Alred, you will need to address the huge body of scripture reg. false teachers, hypocrisy in leaders (we're all hypocrits, of course, but Jesus singled this out, for some reason), and justice. You can only dance around a few scriptures for so long, and then folks will get the idea that you aren't really after truth so much as defending a man who has brought you blessing (I have no doubt he has, in a way).
I say "need to" only if the truth of this mess means something to you AND if you want personal healing. Have you condidered that angle at all, and how to get that ??
@Alfred: small addition, the name of Jesus will take a hit on this, mostly because it's taken this long for some kind of REAL action to get into motion (the 1980 thing was lame in regards to repentance) the church has been willfully ignorant , and callous to what we knew, and what we had good reason to doubt, and for that, the world is going to have a scoff-fest, count on it
As for Bills' name and reputation, I'm not at all convinced that our Savior cares for that one whit, though HE cares for Bill deeply.
Alfred, after reading this comment from greg r, I think it might be a good idea to wait for more stories to come out, before opposing/nitpicking them so strongly, because if in the event that each and every story is true, and proven even to the point where YOU are convinced, it's going to be very rough for you, emotionally. By the way, I know people are often at odds with you here, but I would like you to know that you are and would be welcome with open arms if someday you found yourself in need of healing, i.e. through whatever hurt you may encounter from these scandals etc.
Thank you, Meagan
Greg r: I believe Ruth's story. I have a hard time finding something meaningful to say about it. I hope Mr. Gothard will do whatever is necessary to fix that to whatever extent possible. Without spin.
I do not believe Charlotte at this point.
To allege that Bill Gothard is wealthy is just goofy. I doubt he holds title to even one building there. The ministry -directed by the Board - will most certainly defend him legally, just as my company would where my success is material to the success of the corporation. When he passes into the Lord's presence, he will have very little to distribute.
Powerful? You tell me. I feel like Paul said in his closing days . . . Basically everyone had turned against him.
Alfred, I think I hear what you are saying in that Gothard may not personally be wealthy, but doesn't wealth involves far more than just how much cash is in a personal bank account? Wealth includes the ability to control resources as desired with few limitations - and those resources do not always have to be cash. In this way Gothard (probably less so today than in years past) has been quite wealthy because he had nearly unilateral control over IBLP resources, which have been (and still remain) quite extensive.
The private jets, a beautiful private retreat center on a lake with a private airport and hanger, a staff who takes care of nearly all his personal needs, an extensive contact list with wealthy friends who can donate huge amounts of money, control over an organization which has a net worth in the tens of millions of dollars and which used those resources to take care of many of his personal expenses (such as repairing and maintaining his classic cars) are all evidence of someone who controls extensive resources and is therefore wealthy.
IBLP may have only paid Gothard a small salary, yet Gothard controlled enough resources to decide on a moments notice to drive to the airport, hop on a private plane owned by an organization he controls, fly to a private retreat with a private airport owned by an organization he controls, get off that plane in a private heated hanger owned by an organization without even having to step outside in the cold, spend a few days at a beautiful lakehouse owned by an organization he controls that is staffed by people who work for the organization he controls and were able to take care of all his personal needs, and be back in the office Monday morning. Can you afford that? Have you ever been able to afford to do that, or been in charge of an organization where you could decide to use the organizations resources in such a way? There are a lot of rich people who can't afford that type of lifestyle! How is this not evidence of wealth?!
Who needs a big salary when you can raise money in part by making people think you are frugal yet otherwise live a lifestyle that is far, far greater than what your personal salary would afford?
I have no idea of your level of involvement with the ministry, but your description of the life of luxury and amenities Bill enjoys looks nothing like what I know. Although I have never been there, 6 members of my family, wife included, have had cause to live up at the Northwoods facility for a week at a time, my son repeatedly, several times a year. While the upper peninsula of Michigan is beautiful, including the lake on the property, this is more like a camp than a resort. This is Bill's private cabin, where he lives and works: http://northwoods.iblp.org/facilities/cabins/billscabin/billscabin.jpg
Besides the canoes and the nature walk around the lake, about the only "amenity" is a bowling alley with a small number of lanes. The "private jets" ceased to exist in the early 1980's, and were functional, not luxury. For decades they all endure the 8 hour van ride there, one way.
The "staff" that waits on him is kids/young people . . . That cook . . . And fetch him toothpaste on occasion. He drives himself around, unless in a van with a group. I have watched him for years . . . My son has lived on campus for a decade, worked around the clock with him, travelled the globe with him. He travels with them - bus, whatever - eats what they eat. I stunningly heard people complain about his car . . . Old cars he keeps for decades. He has personal mechanics . . . Again kids that work there, that also tinker with my son's car when broke.
The cast of hundreds . . Isn't. I have no idea his they keep everything running with the limited number of "untrained" people they have . . . But . . . They do. My son has been the "video guy" for years. He sets up the equipment, directs the cameras, edits footage, generates DVDs that are sold around the globe . . . Creates - to me - quite impressive productions that are played before thousands . . . Went there right after high school, trained 1 year by existing staff, now essentially alone. He is typical of the minions that work for Mr. Gothard. Dozens on this site have told similar stories.
Sorry, not going to buy it. I know better. The ministry runs on a shoestring, as long as I have been watching (we live 45 minutes away). Bill's frugal lifestyle is ABSOLUTELY real.
This discussion is something of a sideshow from Charlottes story, so my apologies to the moderators is a bit distracting.
For the record, I have had extensive involvement with IBLP. I have also spent time at the Northwoods. Describing it as just a "camp" (evoking tents and trailer hookups) is a considerable understatement. It's a huge property with many well-furnished buildings. (There's a lot more up there than just Gothard's little cabin.) When I was last there about 10 years ago it was a very comfortable facility. A five-star luxury resort it was not, (although in it's prime it could easily be described as a luxury property) but it's hardly a spartan facility. Much more than just a "camp." I also think it's pretty safe to say the property is not today in the condition it has been in the past, when IBLP revenues were considerably higher.
I think we can agree that IBLP does not have the revenue today that it has in the past, and that consequently BG has had to "live with less," although IBLP still has tens of millions of dollars worth of illiquid assets. Consequently, BG can no longer afford to jet up to the NW on the weekends as he did in the past. My point about the jets is that there are very few status symbols of wealth more obvious than having immediate access to private air travel. A private jet, even if it is merely "functional" is still a considerable luxury. IBYC/Gothard had enough money to buy a plane, then buy a bigger plane, and then order an even bigger one. You also don't buy one, hire a full-time pilot, and maintain a runway and hanger at your retreat, if you're only going to use it once in a while. (It's a lot cheaper to charter a plane if you're only going to use it a couple times a year.)
At the height of Gothard's ministry, IBLP was generating tens of millions of dollars in revenue each year. Gothard controlled all of this, with only minimal oversight. Even if the money wasn't in his name, he had ready access to money and symbols of wealth, and could use them as he pleased. I think this is what people had in mind when they said he was wealthy. Can we not agree that Gothard has controlled tens of millions of dollars?
I also think you made my point when you mentioned the cars and the cooks. Most people, when they need to have their car fixed, hire a mechanic. As you mentioned, Gothard doesn't need to hire a mechanic because someone at HQ will just do it for him. . . I don't imagine Gothard is paying the HQ staff who works on his car market price for a classic car mechanic. (At some point maintaining an old car becomes a lot more expensive than just buying a newer one, so the fact that he "drives the old car" proves nothing. For Gothard's car, that point in time was probably around 1980!) As for the cooks, for most people, if they need someone to cook for them, either have to eat out or hire someone to do it. . . Gothard has been able to eat extensively on IBLP's dime, even when he wasn't away from home.
Look I've been involved with IBLP. I know they can appear to be very frugal with some things. But then there were also things that should cause anyone to scratch their head. G has been incredibly picky about personal amenities. (He may be so less today, which is kind of to be expected given that IBLP is spending more than it generates in revenue today.) I worked at the Dallas TC for a while. G had personal suite there. After the building was renovated, he demanded that they redo his room. Several times! He didn't like the color/design of the wallpaper. He kept changing his mind. There was nothing wrong with with the rooms, but the staff had spend a bunch of time renovating it, even though he only spent a handful of nights there each year! (Funny how that kind of thing never made the newsletter!)
I have been to the Northwoods facility, and although it was quite awhile ago, it was FAR nicer than a camp. i would not characterize it that way at all. We saw the cabin, meant to be austere, but the main building was very nice, and there was a chef, not a young person. Things may have changed, not sure.
When I was there, I thought it was a beautiful facility. These pictures don't do it justice: http://northwoods.iblp.org/facilities/
Some more pics here: http://northwoods.iblp.org/facilities/lodge/
There are stuffed animals and it has that rustic hunting lodge atmosphere. The comfort level for someone staying at the lodge is like a hotel. I don't think I ever actually saw the interior of the cabins, perhaps they are more rustic.
"Camp" would be a mischaracterization on my part. But the feel is more in that direction - camps I have attended, with lodges and outbuildings - than a resort.
All Christians take a fall if Bill falls? What? Goodness, I didn't realize the hope of Christianity for mankind rested on Bill's shoulders! I thought it was Jesus!
Btw, ever since Jesus came, false leaders who did terrible damage to the cause of Christ, have come, been exposed, and gone the way of all flesh eventually. And over the centuries, Christianity has never stopped, but spread. So this statement is fallacious in pretty much every way.
I'm not suggesting that this couldn't potentially hurt someone's faith, but based on my experience, most folks who would use this case as evidence to stay away from Christianity, have already rejected Christ long before, (and often because of the hypocrisy they see in the church, no less). Is this the fault of the whistle blower, that a 'man of God' isn't actually a man of God? Nope! Never.
And if Bill, or anyone else, is really a wolf in sheep's clothing, they WILL be exposed eventually. God's word says so. (All things secret shall be revealed, and something about being shouted from the rooftops. Don't recall the exact verses.) I think you're upset because it's your idol whose taking the heat this time, and believe it or not, I really do understand that and sympathize with it. I still remember how terrified I was when I first began to realize all was not right with him.
I've been following Recovering Grace for quite some time now. Reading these stories made me say, " I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked". I was a SoCal ATI-er. Our "group" was a lot less strict and relaxed compared to other ATI families as the resident Gothard supporter on RG has attested, and why those families in our circle were not as zealous about sending their children to HQ.
I only went to conferences once a year. Near the end of our family's participation in ATI, I went to Journey to the Heart. I thought it was crazy that the girls were so excited to be invited to ride in Mr. Gothard's classic car, yet homesick girls were crying to their house leaders because they could not even speak to a male sibling.
We all knew who were Gothard's favorites. We could pick out right away which girls at conferences and HQ were elevated because they were capable, and which girls were part of the entourage because of their looks. The ratio did not favor the capable ones either. I remember even joking to each other that one girl's testimony at assembly must have been real because she didn't have the right look!
About all the teachings on appearance, I specifically remember the rules about no open toed shoes or slingbacks that revealed the heel or ankle.
I was a very curious teenager and thought I knew a lot about the world. And I knew that that being aroused by feet was a sort of perversion beyond the normal sins of the world! I didn't know the extent and details related to foot fetishes, as worldly and knowledgeable as I thought I was to my ATI peers, but I remember thinking, "What kind of guy around here stares at feet?!"
Well, now we know!
My prayers go out to all the girls who have shared their testimony on RG.
First let me say that anything I have to say in the following post should NOT be taken as me taking a stance for or against the veracity of Charlotte's story - either explicitly or implicitly. Please take what I have to say as coming from someone who wishes to know the truth in as far as it can be known, but has been mislead in the past (either intentionally or otherwise) and thus knows that critical thinking needs to be applied regardless of what one is inclined to believe or however much one may be inclined to respect (or disrespect) the source. Let me also add that, I have had close experience with the topic of sexual abuse in the recent past so I am not insensitive to those who have been victimized in such a way. I repeat, this is NOT about whether or not Charlotte's story is true or not. I say plainly that I do not know anything which would let me come to a conclusion and therefore withhold any judgement.
What I have to say is in way of a strong caution. I believe Alfred's concerns about the story are well-founded. Barring some other story coming out (which is quite possible), Charlotte's story is enough out of the pattern that caution would be wise. Based on the information we have at this point, there is a reasonable basis for being cautious - there are things which don't fit with what is already known. I stress that this is NOT meant to bring into question the veracity of Charlotte's account. I am merely noting that people, RG staff in particular, should keep in mind that there is a reasonable basis for being skeptical about the details. After carefully building a case which is based on numerous witnesses who agree on a common pattern of behavior, RG has now introduced an element to this case which neither fits the pattern (goes considerably beyond it, in fact) and appears to have paucity of elements which might tend to confirm these significantly different details (Mr. G having a lady in her sheer nightgown sitting on his lap would be the only one I can think of that comes close).
Several people have raised these same basic concerns and, as far as I can see, have not been directly addressed. I will not presume to judge RGs decision to share this story (for one, it is quite possible they have information which would overturn the concerns I have), but I would urge caution. At the least, it would greatly appreciated if they could take the time to directly address the reasonable concerns that some are raising. Personally I would greatly appreciate it if RG could take the time to explain why they chose to share this story given the elements which tend to raise a reasonable skepticism for those on the outside.
Contrary voices can be irritating can't they? I wish to say this about Alfred though, compared to other Gothard supporters (or even many Gothard detractors for that matter), Alfred is the epitome of reasonableness. Compared to what people like Mr. Norvell or Tim Jaycox have to say, Alfred's is a jewel. I would encourage people to take the time to understand what he has to say. At the very least, you aren't likely to hear a better defense of Mr. Gothard. IMO, Alfred and others like him should be a target audience for RG. I would even say that Alfred cares about the truth even if I disagree with many of his assumptions about the best way to reach this goal.
In fact, note the extent to which he is willing to criticize Mr. G.:
"What Bill allowed to happen in 1980 was very wrong . . . and it is my opinion that the lesson of “openness and brokenness” that is preached was never applied. The attempts to resolve have not dealt with the root of what many have complained about, pride, callousness . . . indifference . . . unwillingness to openly admit failure without spinning it. The lack of normal boundaries with young ladies is also wrong . . . would speak to pride in ignoring the concerns of others, maybe a basic gullibility. Not understanding “the way of a man with a maid”, as Solomon refers to it."
Given where Alfred was coming from, this seems a huge admission to make. Personally, I would try to work with this as best you can.
At the same time, I wish to challenge Alfred to think through this a bit more critically. It appears you have granted the essence of the ladies' complaints against Mr. G even if your framing is different. But why this framing? It doesn't make sense from in light of a critical analysis. We have multiple ladies who all agree not only on what Mr. G, we also have agreement on how it made them feel and think. Additionally, this seems to be a pattern extending over decades AND involving numerous attempts by various people to warn him of the dangers of even being alone with the ladies. Given these facts, positing that these incidents are due to Mr. G gullibility stretches credulity. While possible, it is on the outside limits of what is reasonable - certainly not something a critical thinker would raise as a serious possibility at this point. Given the weight of evidence, I would challenge you to take more skeptical stance and consider a different set of likely explanations.
Additionally, while I agree with the basic points you raise about Charlotte's story, I would point out this mitigating element to consider...What does Charlotte gain by lying about this? Unless you have some *concrete* reason to suspect her story, then it quite possible that she is telling the truth. At the very least, the lack of concrete evidence to the contrary and the fact that she is more likely to suffer than gain for sharing such a story would indicate that the reasonable course is to, at the least, suspend disbelief till more is known. And I would encourage you to push Mr. G to address this whole issue very directly and forthrightly.
First of all, thank you for your kind words.
It appears you have granted the essence of the ladies' complaints against Mr. G even if your framing is different. But why this framing
In response: Sorry, but you have to know Mr. Gothard. He is the epitome of the idealist. Everything is colored by the world as it ought to be. In the perfect world you have perfect motives, you have complete discipline, you have complete “unto death” sacrifice. In the “perfect world” young ladies are treated as “sisters” . . . with all purity. One reason I doubt “Charlotte” is that I have never, ever, for a teensy amount known him to try to cover things up. What he does is “spin” things in a different light, a new understanding. So he walks along on “the water” in faith that he is doing the Lord’s will and the Lord is pleased with him. So . . . he has NEVER tried to hide his actions that cause concern. Young ladies on this website testify to his holding and massaging their hand . . . in front of a group of dozens. I think it was “Lizzie” describing him getting her alone . . . in a hotel room . . . with the door open . . . in front of an open window, holding her hand gazing into her eyes as he described all of the wonderful things the Lord was going to do. He played “foostie” with her in a crowded van with folks sitting all around. He works long hours with a young lady . . . late into the evening . . . in front of an uncovered window with light blazing out into the night. I have seen him with a young lady in his car countless times . . . sitting in the carport by his office, as everybody walks by. It is just who he is.
I know no other way to describe it but . . . gullibility. To imagine himself different from the masses, that his motives, being pure, would allow him to cross a variety of typical boundaries “in faith” and still be doing the right thing. THAT is the man I know . . . the man Charlotte describes, deliberately doing evil and covering it up simply is out of character.
“What does Charlotte gain by lying about this?”
I am sure you can think of reasons why people have lied about such things. Attention, money, revenge. I do not know “Charlotte” . . . but after a life of getting knocked around without recognition . . . currently she is a hero to thousands. The Lord knows for sure if that is her motive or not.
And I know there are those that have no evil motive . . . my friend, who had the “repressed memories” of satanic rituals her mother committed against her really believed it, I think. We knew her well. Detailed account – all never happened. At least . . . there has never been any corroborating evidence found to my knowledge. We will leave it at that. [Her story: http://www.astraeasweb.net/plural/ralynne.html]
I do find it interesting that, so far, she has not responded to comments posted. The Lord knows. Given the severity of these accusations it would hardly be surprising that people would question it . . . given her state of mind, severe unhappiness with having been put through that episode by her family.
She says that Bill knew about her father’s abuse and they talked about it . . . yet this same abuse was a “repressed memory” she could only recall 15 years later? I find it a strange mix . . . on the one hand she was clearly in rebellion against parents and ATI prior to this situation, yet speaks of holding Bill in awe, and not talking about what happened because . . . the family would be kicked out of ATI?! I have known plenty of rebellious ATI kids . . . hurting Mr. Gothard and getting the family kicked out of the program would be a glorious event.
And if it turns out I am wrong, I will apologize to her publicly.
I'm sorry...that is such a strange defense. My gut is to say way more than that, but I'll just say that in my context what you believe to be "gullible" would be called foolish and unwise. And you're probably aware that the "he's just so innocent that he's gullible" defense has been used to cover some terrible sins. It doesn't really even speak well to your understanding of Ruth's story, which you say you believe.
"Gullible" is a bad word. . . "naive" is closer to what I was trying to get at. Yes . . . he can be terribly naive. Having authority to believe things to be as he wishes . . . REALLY believing it. That is the part being missed.
Mr. Gothard so completely believes in what he is doing to be God's will that he expects things to straighten themselves out, even when all appears lost, awful in dramatic ways. Some of that gets quite close to pride . . . and lying. The "naive" part is to not believe himself or his trusted ones capable of messed up motives.
After having observed - at a distance, through others - him interacting in openness on some of these things, the quite apparent frustration with others making a fuss over "non-issues" as he saw them, I can't help but conclude that he really wasn't getting it. Certainly not the the model of a man who knows he is guilty, covering up.
In the last couple of years, when he was finally openly addressing some of the behaviors - the "long handshakes" as he called them, for example - he spoke to others in private that these things needed to be addressed because of the "appearance of evil", i.e. the sensibilities of others, NOT because anything was out of line. I really, truly believe that he really, truly believed that. I also have some cause to believe that subsequent fairly strong intervention by friends has finally gotten his attention.
The Lord knows. And loves Bill. And so do I.
Thanks. And I appreciate your personal experience. I believe you that you believe this to be true. However, I read your description as the definition of "folly", and it's symptomatic (anger that his offensive actions are pointed out, feeling "above the rules", unable to recognize other peoples feelings and emotions, etc.) of narcissism- I'm not trying to offer a technical diagnosis; that would be folly as well. I'm telling what I see by your description, and that's because I believe this is your honest perception rather than spin.
Setting the moral aspect of these accusations aside for discussion sake; a man who is so utterly naive about how his actions have adversely affected dozens of young women is unqualified to be a minister. His "naiveté" has caused reckless harm and confusion.
In short, I believe you believe your description of BG, and I think it still makes the case for disqualification for ministry.
Yeah, 'spinning things to a new understanding'. Um, how is that not dishonest at the least? One might say that 'Lizzie' and all the others are, 'spinning things to a new understanding' too.. (I don't think they are) and I'm sure no-one would say that that's ok. Why is it ok for Gothard to 'spin things to a new understanding?'
Just from the point of critical thinking...
Problems with the naivety explanation:
1. He isn't unintelligent
2. He is very aware of the concept of "avoiding an appearance of evil" so much so that one would think it would tend to override his natural idealism and acting as if this were a "perfect world"
3. He has been warned multiple times over many years of the problematic nature of even being alone with young ladies, so he cannot possibly be ignorant of how these actions much be a clear violation of the "avoid all appearance of evil" concept.
4. He is extremely sensitive to situations where others violate this concept, so again, it can't be that he is naïve in this regards.
5. These sorts of things (talking about the sorts of things which are well testified to), have been going on for many years.
Now, if this were a one time sort of thing which was quickly corrected after he was approached about it, then "naivety" would make sense. Even maybe 3 or 4 incidents if one adds in a bit of insensitivity and pride to the mix. But when we have numerous testimonies over the course of more than a dozen years, the naivety argument doesn't bear up well in terms of critical thinking. To make it work, one must add on exceptions and further explanations that tend to unnecessarily complicate the argument. Violation of Occam's razor at the least IMO.
As to the idea that he was just treating these ladies as "sisters", there are some extremely serious problems with this idea:
1. Idealists tend to apply their "perfect world" ideas as broadly as possible. A person who, for instance, believes that relationships with women can be framed in terms of treating them as sisters will tend to apply this to all categories of women. They will also tend to apply any related concepts across the board as well - ie. treating men as "brothers". Those who apply this "ideal" concept to a very narrow group without very sound reasons should be suspected of not being idealists but merely using this as an excuse to silence critics.
2. Additionally an idealist will tend to assume others have the same basic outlook. If an idealist treats a young woman as "sister" he must assume that the young woman is thinking of him as a brother. And if another man of good character interacts with a woman, an idealist would tend to assume that they are interacting as brother and sister. If a person applies his "perfect world" only to himself, then he must be suspected of acting on ulterior motives.
3. Yet Mr. G does not apply his "perfect world" broadly at all. His "brotherly" attention is limited to single, young, attractive ladies who are in some way under his control. Unattractive ladies do not, as far as I can determine, receive any of this sort of "brotherly" attention...and are often treated dismissively, particularly if they are overweight. I suspect he doesn't even treat his real sisters with this sort of attention. Nor have I seen any evidence that he gives physical affection to his "brothers" in this supposed ideal world.
4. Additionally, Mr G does not tend to assume that others live within this ideal world along with him. The testimonies show quite the opposite in fact. He seems to be hyper-vigilant to ulterior motives in others. Actions well below the threshold of the sort of affection which you would excuse as being "brotherly" in Mr. G were grounds for harsh discipline and dismissal when observed in others. In fact, such hyper-vigilance could often translate into *actual* brothers and sisters being reprimanded for showing affection to each other (personal experience here).
So given the fact that Mr. G's "ideal world" was not applied consistently or broadly and the fact that he was not given assuming such motives in others, the argument that he was simply an idealist doesn't bear up under a critical examination - not well at all. At the very least, if we were take the standards Mr G holds others to and apply them to Mr G himself, his own standards would condemn him.
In response:
I agree he is intelligent. But . . . I was in an evening session where Mr. Gothard was talking about some principle that came to bear on water . . . or snow? The details slip my mind, but it had to do with something like singing, praying, godly music purifying water - shake it while something. Very detailed. The connection to some Scriptural "design" principle escaped me at that point . . . but I was . . . amazed. I couldn't see the point, a connection to the world as I knew it.
He believes a lot of things that others, including myself, dismiss. He really believes them! That is why things like "Sonic Bloom" made so much sense to him, and he could not contain his enthusiasm. [The concept actually made a lot of sense to me, up until I started asking myself where all of the financially successful people were that should already be evident from all the abundance this produced before ATI got to it] People think he was a snake oil salesman . . . if so, it was because he really believes the snake oil.
[Ever read John Wesley's journals? He too believed in medical wonders and cures with spiritual zeal . . . a concoction of mercury was recommended by him as a God given cure for so many things]
See the difference? HE REALLY BELIEVES IT! And he feels everyone will eventually see it as he does and so can endure any amount of contrary evidence in the mean while.
He really, truly believes he has helped a lot of young women with his methods, and that his displays of paternal affection or - as he sees it - "playfulness" have simply helped toward that end. And . . . many have been helped, of that can be no denying. If there are more pluses than minuses, eternity will tell all.
His interest in specific women that looked like marriage candidates was, I believe, genuine as well. I really do. He is a conflicted person in that regard, with longings that he may not even fully grasp, but with this conviction that God wants him to work harder, stay single longer to accomplish even more. When he suddenly reaches out to touch a woman's hair admiringly, it represents a repressed passion. No appropriate, but I get it. So does the woman. But the next step is, frankly, to do something about it. Find the woman that will bless you and put up with you . . . and marry her. Oh . . . had he but married in the early days, taken a year off to learn to live with a woman that he would find didn't necessarily think like he thought or put up with what he felt she should put up with, how different . . . how different things might be.
But his ignoring of so many, so many that have approached him on this . . . that I have a hard time with, regardless of his confidence in himself and the his scriptural methods. Any one of those voices, in some cases timidly given, could have spared me much of this website.
[And who can forget the absolutely true principle he has taught so often: "Seeds of a wounded spirit, when pushed underground, produce a crop of rebellion" That is one of the most insightful perspectives that I have gotten from him, in dealing with "rebellion". This website is loaded with rebels . . . who can all point back to deep wounds they got from Bill when they were vulnerable. He needs to fix that, really fix it. I too am a sinner . . . may God preserve my own children from my excesses.]
No, seeds of a wounded spirit do NOT produce a crop of rebellion. You know what they produce? Woundedness. What do wounded people do? They lash out in their pain, with no other motive than finding relief, or possibly shouting a warning. How is that 'rebellion' and what or who are they supposed to be rebelling against?
That teaching is Gothard speak for, 'anyone who objects to anything I do, will automatically be dismissed as a rebel, thus disqualifying whatever their (possibly legitimate) complaint is.'
And why on earth do you want to follow the teachings of a man who can't or won't understand, 'hey, such n such doesn't work.' and he believes in it so much, he sells it anyway! Which is rotten ethics at best, and a scam at worst.
I could care less what he says he believes or doesn't believe, what I care about is the people he's hurt. And you are one of them, you just don't know it yet.
Gothard definition for "rebellion" is "reserving the right to make final decisions". i.e. I don't care what you think or say anymore. "Go ahead with your own life, leave me alone". People who were under Bill's authority taking themselves out and thumbing their noses at him. Did I mischaracterize?
And that was stated without prejudice. And with sympathy. I understand.
adding one more point to critical thinking line up---
A. he justifies everything he does by "the divine right of kings".
"HE REALLY BELIEVES IT!"
Yup, I was right about the divine right of kings.
"He really, truly believes he has helped a lot of young women with his methods, and that his displays of paternal affection or - as he sees it - "playfulness" have simply helped toward that end."
But this explanation fails to account for a very key piece...the fact that such inappropriate touching appears to be applied only to young, single, attractive ladies. If it were simply a matter of "playfulness" one would expect to see it applied to all categories of people - married women, men, young men, less-attractive ladies, etc. He may tell himself in his mind that its just "playfulness" but, unless you can give some good reason why its so narrowly applied, then isn't it *much* more reasonable that this is simply an excuse?
It also doesn't take into account the fact that he is so unwilling to allow other single men the same sort of latitude in how they interact with single ladies. After all, to the innocent all things are innocent :). Again, your explanation doesn't bear much critical examination. His supposed beliefs are just too narrowly applied...and to darn convenient for that matter.
Any explanation that is going to stand critical examination is going to have to take into account his very narrow application of his "brotherly/fatherly" attentions.
"His interest in specific women that looked like marriage candidates was, I believe, genuine as well. I really do...When he suddenly reaches out to touch a woman's hair admiringly, it represents a repressed passion."
Ok, given this, I think we can then agree on the fact that G acted with blatant hypocrisy at the very least with regards to these women. Can we also agree that no boss should be touching a young woman in his employ when motivated by passion? And can we agree that such touching when motivated by sexual passion and especially when uninvited and unwelcome meets the basic definition of sexual harassment?
But your admission that he sometimes touches with sexual passion creates all sorts of problems for the claim that he is just an idealist who is "playful" in order to help young ladies. Just how is a young lady (much less anyone) supposed to determine when they are being treated in a "brotherly" fashion and when G is actually expressing "repressed passion" for her? I can see no clear way to make this distinction - touching hair is repressed passion but rubbing the leg with his foot is just playful/brotherly? If "repressed passion" is always a possibility then shouldn't the young lady always be uncomfortable with his "playfulness"? The fact that G is not, in fact, always acting "brotherly" calls into question the claim the is ever really motivated by simple "brotherly" affection when he acts this way towards ladies.
Regarding the payoff for Charlotte lying about her experience:
1. Your response is based on the idea that she had "a life of getting knocked around without recognition". Yet her story does not indicate this is the case. She reveals what happened to her 20 years ago, and then seems to indicate that she has had a good life since around 21 years of age. If she has had a good life for the last half of it, then your explanation doesn't reveal a good payoff - she would have little motive to seek being a hero to others.
2. Additionally, even if she had a payoff for every person who viewed her as a hero, there is the counterbalance of the fact that at least as many are going to see her as, at best, a messed up person and, at worst, a flat-out lying glory seeker. Thus, in terms of reputation payoff, the net gain is little if any.
IOW, your proposed idea doesn't work out given what we actually know. There is no net payoff if reputation was what she was seeking to improve.
Additionally, while the use of the term "repressed" is problematic for the story, keep in mind a couple of things:
a. she does not say she forgot what happened (contrary to your statement), its possible she was implying that forgetting was an aspect of repressing, but there isn't anything in her story to confirm this.
b. so, its quite possible she is using "repression" in a more commonplace sense rather than referring to a clinical type repression. IOW, it would be reasonable to see this term as her saying she was simply refusing to think or dwell on the abuse without having actually dealt with it properly.
Just offering this as a reasonable alternate way to read this part of her story.
Methinks you are reading in what you want, brother. She said she answered truthfully "No", when asked if her father had molested her. THEN the repressed memories came back. I don't get that. I understand that happening to a little kid, things they have never been able to talk to people about. Once, however, even a kid talks about it, that becomes virtually impossible.
On "payoff", sort of getting goofy. We all like to be appreciated, well thought of. Anybody who can bring an accusation against Bill Gothard on this website that might "stick" legally, or practically have the effect of "taking him down" is a hero. Rejoicing, praise. That is quite motivating.
You have got to understand that comments/attitudes like that are why alot of women don't come forward Alfred. You've got to be kidding. I could not imagine WANTING to come forward with such a story, what, about a spiritual leader whom everyone respects, who would believe me? My mother had a severe childhood with serious sexual crimes committed against her, and she would probably rather die than go public in such a way with her stories, even if it's to bring justice. The shame is almost unbearable for her. I am extremely offended at your attitude. Believe her to be lying/exaggerating if you wish, certainly, but have the decency to not judge what her motives MIGHT be. If she's lying, her motives will surface eventually.
For all of Gothard's defenders; Where is the benefit of the doubt for someone who obviously has serious hurts, whether they came from Bill or not?
Either way, I know I've said this before, Alfred, I really do suggest you sit tight and wait for the other 30 some odd stories to come out before pronouncing certain judgment on them. It may very well be that other women will say the same or similar.
Meagan! You are not even being reasonable. Then, by God's grace, tell your story in a protected environment. Have important people go with you to confront the man, have them work through that with him. Once she goes public with really, really damaging accusations, she opens herself up to scrutiny, criticism . . . and legal danger as well, if she is guilty of defamation. You can't have it both ways.
I mean . . . go to whomever he says his pastor is. I had a situation once where a powerful lawyer in a Christian legal organization was harassing a leader in the homeschool organization I was a part of. I called him on it . . . phone call . . . he got really frustrated with me, called my boss and announced that I was harassing him on work time. My time could be accounted for, but you can see that this was bad, nasty, whatever. I found out his pastor . . . and called him. Next thing I knew, lawyer was on the phone, all broken, begging for a chance to fix things with my boss, apologizing to me. He would have been untouchable by me . . . but I touched him . . . with a good outcome for all, I believe.
I have personally - publically - offered to go with this one or that one to meet with Mr. Gothard. Or make contact with the ones he respects. My wife has since expressed her reservations on my increasing my involvement . . . but . . . I would do whatever I could. Especially now.
I know that Gil Bates (brief "United Bates of America" show on TLC) was on the board not that long ago, maybe still is. People like that will not just brush off a serious complaint.
Alfred, my story is nothing compared to Charlotte's but I will expound on my own experiences.
1) I have absolutely nothing to gain by telling my story except the scorn of the people who support Gothard. And believe me, I have gotten it. Standing up for the truth has caused immeasurable emotional pain.
2) When I felt uncomfortable with Bill touching me, I did tell my parents...and they said exactly what it seems you would say "It's no big deal-it's Bill Gothard-he would never do anything wrong!" This type of reasoning is impossible to deal with. If your proof that it didn't happen is because the perpetrator "would never" then it is only proof in your mind and can never be disproven to you.
3) Take someone with me? Are you kidding? See #2. He "would never". No one except my friends who experienced the same treatment believed something was wrong. My ATI pastor in my ATI church was just as twisted theologically and I didn't trust him even when I was fully immersed in IBLP doctrine. He was a mean man.
Obviously two, or three or thirty witnesses are not enough. I'm sorry you are unable to deal with this fact. I am not a rebellious teenager. I am a wife, home-schooling mother and business owner. I am not an idiot. I wouldn't say something like this unless I felt it important. It is important that he be stopped. If your children grasp your level of devotion, please understand that they most likely will never tell you if they experience inappropriate actions. I can only imagine how you would treat them. I was thirty years old before I confronted my parents for their inaction. I had been married and away from their home for many years. It STILL hurt to be cast from "golden child" and be called "bitter" over injustices that I was forced to experience. It was not my choice. If Bill didn't want these stories told, he should have behaved better.
Hmmm, I can find no place where you she says that she *truthfully* answered "NO". If she did, then I withdraw my earlier qualification. But all I am seeing is this: "At that time, a family member asked if my father had abused me. At first I denied that he had."
She says simply that she denied it when asked. Again, maybe she meant by "repressed" that she honestly couldn't remember. But reading what she actually wrote, it seems just as reasonable that she meant simply that she refused to think about it or dwell on it (without actually having forgot about it).
I agree with you about the upside of coming forward being a possible motivator. My point is that any reasonably intelligent person is going to also realize that there is a strong counterbalance to this upside - you will be though of as a evil woman of questionable morals and characters by just as many other people. So, if the motivation is to be though of well, being a whistle blower has little to no *net* payoff. The big exception to this is a case where pretty much every already thinks the worst of you in which case there is only an upside. You propose that she was in this type of position (which makes the payoff make sense), BUT you have no evidence this is the case. Thus, not a plausible suggestion for a payoff given what we actually know.
Time will tell. When you know - or think you know - someone you evaluate an account such as this against what you know. This account does not ring true to me for multiple reasons, regardless of overt discrepancies that I think I see. As stated, the other accounts do appear true to me based on what I know and have observed.
@Alfred: you wrote
Time will tell. When you know - or think you know -
"think you know...." hang onto that thought, Alfred: you are heading in a good direction with this: either the Bill you know is true OR the accounts that you've said you believe are true. One or the other.
Oh I am not claiming its true. I don't know. All I am saying is that there isn't a good *objective* basis for assuming its false. Not that I can see so far. Some have claimed that there are obvious fabrications, and maybe to them, there are. But until someone actually points out these things to those who are on the fence, the reasonable response, from the point of view of critical thinking, is to assume nothing *either way*. It is totally naturally to assume the best of someone whom you trust...but one needs to keep in mind that this doesn't really make your assumption true. Its just as likely to be cognitive bias at work.
So, for those who are claiming skepticism, I encourage it applied equally to both sides.
Hmmmm, the approval system is creating some out of order posts. This is my last of 3 responses for now...
What I wish to discuss in more depth is the idea of defrauding and how it applies to the stories on which we basically agree about the details. For this particular discussion I will grant your interpretation of Gs mindset and motives. I wish only to critique Gothard using his own teachings and standards.
With that in mind, I propose this question: Did Mr. Gothard defraud these young ladies? Keep in mind that, by Mr. G definition of defrauding (as well as practices in dealing with his employees), intent is not really at issue. So, in answering the question of defrauding, the question of Gs motives are beside the point. At question is whether or not his actions (regardless of intent) met his definition of defrauding.
Short answer: In some cases, absolutely, defrauding. "Raising expectations [sexually, maritally] that you cannot righteously satisfy, [or have no intention of satisfying]." That was what he confessed to the board back in the early 1980s . . . probably in reference to Ruth. Probably with Meg, too.
And, applying the same standard Mr. G does to other single men at TCs who he accuses of defrauding, what should happen to Mr. G himself?
Alfred, how can Gothard confess to Meg's situation years before it happened? You have a lot of probablies there. I think you need to reference the timeline. Meg's situation happened in 1993--at least 12 years after the 1980 scandal broke.
I think Alfred means to say that Meg is also a case of his defrauding, not that he confessed to defrauding Meg in the early 80s.
I'm saying that to point out an acknowledgement of such an issue, why I doubt Bill would dismiss or deny any such subsequent event. The resignation in 1980 related to the entire mess - the grief associated with him completely mishandling a huge tragedy with his brother. I intend to speak with him at some point about this story in particular . . . But I know they have enough to focus on without my involvement. I am a bit player, ATI Dad with two children serving, one at HQ, one in Taiwan, we live about 45 minutes away, no role whatsoever. I understand a statement is being prepared and will be released, although no timeframe was given.
I am very curious as to your thoughts on this question:
Given that you agree Mr. G, at the least, is guilty of defrauding young ladies. If we were to apply the same standard Mr. G does to other single men at TCs who he accuses of defrauding, what should happen to Mr. G himself?"
Alfred,
Do you get paid for the time you spend on here defending Bill Gothard? Really, its a serious question.
I really, truly don't get paid for anything related to Bill Gothard. In fact, Bill communicated to my son a couple of months ago that he was aware that "we" were spending a lot of time on this site, that this was not a good idea. [for the record, son - IBLP video guy - hardly ever goes here, and then at my request to check something out] That represents the entirety of the interaction between he and I or my son on RG, ever. I have had an occasional brief contact with the admin of the IBLP Facebook page, my initiation to ask questions or make him aware of activity here. I do not figure anywhere in the Institute's processes or strategies - far from it. I rather suspect I represent an embarrassment to him.
Alfred, I like you, I really do. I see a man who is grateful to ATI principles that helped make something of himself and family, with nice kids who make their parents proud. Your loyalty to the man for your nice life situation is more than admirable but like playing with snakes, one day you will get bit by your favorite rattler.
"Bill communicated to my son a couple of months ago that he was aware that "we" were spending a lot of time on this site, that this was not a good idea."
Where does busybody Bill thinks he has the right to tell you the minutia of your life and how to run it? This is the USA and it is run by the Constitution. No person has the right to tell you anything on what you do with your time as long as it is not illegal or immoral. Right now he is just strongly suggesting you stay away from this site. Soon it will be an order or maybe your kids are sent home on a trumped up charge. (As a side note, ONLY your wife has the right to tell you anything!!!!!!!! “AAAAAL-FRED, get off that dayum computer and come help me move the furniture!!!”)
"I rather suspect I represent an embarrassment to him."
This statement tells me a lot about your self-esteem, mainly because I can identify with it. You (and I) are not the physical "ideal" image BG wants to present to the world. (I stray further from that image in that I wear pants, ride horses, have lots of cats and keep a messy house. I would probably not even be allowed to walk on ATI property.) You and I are more like the Caananite woman who was glad to get the crumbs from the master’s table. But she was going after the crumbs from the Master’s table not crumbs from Bill’s table.
You do have courage and loyalty but I think it misplaced. Remember when we face the Master at the judgement, He will not look like BG. BG will just be another person waiting in line.
Thank you for kind words, Esbee. As to misplaced loyalty . . . eternity will tell all. Once again, is the natural loyalty that we all have to our own parents or kids or spouses "misplaced"? Somehow I think that is a bit of how it is supposed to work.
Proverbs 17:17 "A friend loveth at ALL TIMES,
and a brother is born for adversity."
Cor 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."
Esbee said "BG will just be another person waiting in line."
I love this line. It is so easy to see how this also applies to others in my life who II gave inappropriate power and influence.
Mr. Corduan, I have read many of your comments many times over, and there are just a couple of things I would like to point out.
1) If Charlotte's story doesn't ring true to you as all the others' do, perhaps it's because you're looking for similarities when you should be comparing differences. Substantial differences separate Charlotte from the other young women:
a) She had already been portrayed to Mr. Gothard as immoral and rebellious. Therefore, he knew he could elicit more sensational material for intimate times of confession, require lengthier sessions of intimate prayer, and, as her then-authority figure and presumed counselor, legitimize the amount of intimate time he sought with her.
b) She had experienced sexual abuse, and Mr. Gothard was aware of that. But not only aware: as one who speaks of the importance a father on his daughter and her sexual identity, he would have also known that Charlotte, suffering from a very unhealthy relationship with her father, would not only be thirsting and hungering for a real father figure, but would also be deeply confused regarding appropriate behavior from a father figure.
Whether or not Mr. Gothard consciously used her weakness to his advantage, her vulnerability certainly seems to have appealed to him and would have enabled him to continue pressing his advantage.
Regardless, what is said of Charlotte's condition going into this situation cannot be said of the young women who were able to prevent their encounters from becoming more like hers.
And 2) Reading a Bible verse out of context, whether it's in isolation from the other verses in context or it's in isolation from the rest of Scripture is easy, tempting, and, frankly, common in IBLP materials, but it's also not responsible. I raise this issue because you presented us with a couple I couldn't pass up:
a) You say "A friend loves at ALL TIMES," but I can't help but notice that "A friend LOVES at all times." Considering the entire counsel of Scripture, we must acknowledge that true love would require an objective pursuit of the truth for the saving of the soul rather than a prejudicious defense a friend--or father--to his bitter end. May your love for Mr. Gothard grow to exceed all others'.
b) I Corinthians 4:15 as you cite it is followed by verse 16, which you did not cite: "Therefore I urge you, imitate me." Oh, dear. Even those things which you admit are likely to have happened are far from being worthy of emulation. We may view our mentors as spiritual fathers or mothers, but this cannot equate them with the Apostle Paul or identify us with the congregation as receiving from these mentors the very word of God. This is why none of us can apply verse 15, much less verse 16, to our own lives and to those of our fathers or mothers, spiritual or otherwise. To do so would be another instance of looking for similarities when we should be comparing differences.
I hope that remembering to compare differences when we see similarities--or to see similarities when comparing differences--will help us all when we weigh what we really know against what we think we know, what we don't know, what we want to believe, and what we don't want to believe.
In the light and love of Jesus Christ,
Pamela
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I never bought into BG's legalism, even though our close friends did. And it even seemed to cause division between the "ATIers" and those that stayed away from it. Whenever you add to the Word of God your own doctrine of legalism or take away from the Word of God and replace with your own liberal doctrine, the devil wins.
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OK, I have now scrolled all the way down here, and read the quote from the Apostle Paul -- " Ye have not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus have I begotten you. . . . " Alright then, compare that to the words in red, what Jesus Himself said, "Call no man father upon earth; for one is your Father . . . . " OK . . . I do not say those things contradict each other - What I say is, that the words in red actually carry more weight than the words of the Apostle Paul. I do not look for a lot of nuance and explaining away the balance of these verses. I personally just give a lot more weight to the words in red. . . .
Nothing but LIES being told here! You should be ashamed!
@JP could you clarify to what you are referring?
You know this how?
"Charlotte", if you are still reading this thread please check out this article about the IL Statute of Limitations on Childhood Sexual Abuse.
http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/the-statute-of-limitations-for-childhood-sexual-abuse-in-illinois.html
The usual "statute of limitations" does not really apply, ILCS § 5/13-202.2(b) allows you to press charges within 5 years of learning that what you had suffered was indeed child abuse. It does not matter how long ago the incident actually was. I hope this can be of help.
Please tell me why I should not consider the following:
(1)There are no "men of God".
(2)There is no divine protection.
(3)We have been left on our own.
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My heart is breaking for you and all the victims. This is all so sad and it makes me sick. I attended three conferences two basic and one advanced. I was a young Christian the first time. All truth is God's truth so we can take the truth out of the message and dispose of the charlatan. People makes mistakes but it sounds to me like this was a despicable lifestyle. Why the heck didn't he get married and pour his life into a wife and family, UGH!
Charlotte, I must say that my heart breaks for you. My family did not get started into the Gothardite cult until about five years ago.... I thank the lord that I was not so innocent as to not see it for the cult that it is. My family was already emotionally abusive because of a church change to a conservative Baptist church. I was already drowning in legalism, but then my Homeschool Consultant introduced us to IBLP. If I was drowning then, IBP only made it more difficult to breathe... My parents burned several of my antique books that I had searched long and hard for. (I collect antiques, especially books.) I suffered under "What would Gothard do" until I turned 18. I suppose I was a bit of a rebel. At that point, I informed my parents, Who I am still terrified of, that I would not be a part of their cult anymore. I abandoned the Baptist church that they attend and returned to the church that I had grown up in since I was six months old. That was the church that had brought me to Christ and had inspired a love of God in my heart and life. That church had encouraged me to memorize scripture for myself and carry my bible always. But I was not condemned for having questions, rather I was encouraged for searching the scriptures and wanting to understand for myself what God was trying to tell me from my bible. They provided me with an age appropriate bible version (the NIrV) and there were always mature Christians available to help me understand what I was reading, but never told me that I was wrong or bad for thinking something. If I made an erroneous deduction from scripture, I would be gently redirected. SO I returned to my home church and began to recover somewhat from my intense hatred for "Christians" and Baptists... but then I began to attend a conservative Baptist college to make my parents happy, it was the only way that my mom would help me pay for college. Again, they manipulated me into doing what they want. I am sitting in my dorm on campus where even our in the dorm clothing is regulated. This school is so like IBLP that it is scary. So, while I have never endured anything like what you have endured, or what others have experienced, but conservative "Christians" often do more harm than good in a true believer's live.
Stay strong, Hope. It sounds like you know how to recognize what is healthy and what is not.
Read the Book Of John over and over. God loves us. Galations helps be free of legalism. Eph 6. we are in a battle with the enemy and the enemy uses religion all the time. DON't let go of GOD! He isn't them. They do not represent GOD. Jesus loves you and so does the Father. Perfect love casts out fear. Only GOd the Father can love us perfectly 1 John. I am working through all this legalism and it made God the Father one with all this garbage. He isn't a legalist. SATAN IS. Blessings sweetie. Don't let God be one with this filth.
I find that story tragic and horrific. I hope justice is made and that Charlotte has found healing and redemption from such heart-wrenching experiences.
I do wonder about one part in her story.
She says that "He knew what my father had done to me, but he called me into repentance for my own sins without confronting my father or addressing his sin. I was a temptation to men; Bill Gothard told me that I had tempted my own father." (in 1992 if I understood correctly)
But then at the end says she had repressed the memory of her father's abuse until 2006. How can Bill Gothard have talked to her about it if she didn't remember it at that time ?
It comes back eventually. One can only repress so much. Unless you have been through it you can't relate. Serious trauma cane lead to this, when one starts to talk about it it's like the memory block starts to peel off. I had similar stuff. Note her story lines up with others. Similarities. Research it and talk with police about it who deal with this stuff. It happens all the time.
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I have a question; I do not know much about repressed memories; what I understand them to be is that they are events so traumatic that you don't even remember that they happened. Correct? I was wondering about Charlotte's story; if she had repressed the memory of her dad's abuse, how was it she knew that Mr. Gothard had known of it? Honest question, really; I know that some could think I'm trying to cast doubt on the victim, but really, I'm not. I am really grieved for the suffering that has been clearly expressed.
Vikki, DO some research. Talk with detectives who deal with this thing. heck google it. I was a victim and repressed, but I also had clarity on parts of it periodically then tried to block it as well again. My family didn't believe me because I could only remember parts, then as I got it out more started to come. I almost panicked. I never did anything occult to have false memories etc. I was told it was the devil who gave me those thoughts. Later more girls came forward and backed it up with similarities as I was made to feel like i was loosing my mind. There are patterns here. I believe Charlotte totally. It is too close to my story just with someone else.
Vikki and Rebecca, since this is an older thread, I'm not sure if someone knowledgeable is going to see your posts. I do recall this question coming up earlier (somewhere among the more than 500 comments) and I vaguely remember an answer. -Something to the effect of Charlotte using the term "repressed memory" a little differently than many would think of it as total repression. -Something more to the effect of knowing it happened but not remembering the details.
Sorry I'm not more helpful.
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. Gal. 5:12
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Dearest Charlotte,
I believe you.
Love,
Rebecca Walley O'Bryon
Dear Charlotte,
I believe you, too.
Love,
Rachel
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Dear Charlotte,
Sexual Predators are skilled at finding their victims. They look for weaknesses they can exploit in their victims, and by time Bill Gothard "discovered" you, he was already a highly skilled Abuser.
You are here because of God, not Bill Gothard.
You are brave and strong, otherwise you would not have the courage to share the experience of being abused by this vermin.
You do not have to let your father's or Bill Gothard's abuse prevent you from having a healthy life, even if the bad memories interfere from time to time.
David
Anyone who as ever dealt with both male and female children cannot help but be familiar with the predatory histories of "fundamentalist" churches.
Nobody living can honestly say that they have never had to be very concerned with these new forms of sex worship that have appeared along with the transfer of authority and unwarranted and creepy respect for the sexual "rights" of men conferred by families taught (indoctrinated) in that kind of church.
I know that we all know very well that these events are extremely common in the USA and in the courts of law in every civilized place and time in world history.
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LOL!