If you died with the Messiah to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: “Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch”? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. (Colossians 2:20-22)
You know, sometimes, I think I’m doing really well in my “recovery” from ATI (Advanced Training Institute). I know grace can’t be earned, I understand the danger of making everything in the Bible a principle, I work really hard not to judge people according to how they look. And then something happens that makes my chest tighten up, and I want to hide in my room and realize that maybe it all affected me more than I thought.
That happened recently. I interacted with an ATI mom. When she found out I had an ATI background and have 4 children, it was amazing how much she presumed to know about me. She stated the ATI plan for families: “Children are such a blessing. I really think that the world is watching large families in a special way. It’s so important that they be well trained so they can be a blessing to everyone. Don’t you want your children to be a blessing to everyone?”
And though some of that is certainly true – children are a blessing and all children need to be taught how to live – it started the whole “way of life” pressure that is too familiar.
When I stop and think of how much of life is dictated in ATI, I realize why I feel like I can’t breathe. So, for those who aren’t familiar with the level of legislation and the far-reaching effects of the “non-optional principles,” I thought I’d try to summarize it for you.
Pretty much every area of life has a pre-established “way” in ATI.
Children are a blessing. God opens and closes the womb. Birth control is bad, and you will have as many children as is physically possible, even if pregnancy or birth threatens your life.[i]
Those children are to be trained from the womb to instantly obey the voice of their parents from the womb.[ii] If you do it right, babies in the womb will kick on command and flip to the right position to be born. Infants will know to sleep when you tell them to. All skill training (like potty training) is as simple as teaching obedience.
Children will not be in any age-segregated classes[iii] (like Sunday School). They will be homeschooled[iv]. Their day will start with Wisdom Search (now called Rhema search).[v] They will not read the NIV even if their parents bought it for them (we were actually told that at a counseling seminar).
All natural boy/girl attraction will be nipped in the bud. Anyone who asks your small children if they have a boyfriend or girlfriend is to be quickly reprimanded and avoided. They are encouraging evil.
Children will be protected from everyone who does not agree with everything the parents teach. If that means you must home church, so be it. Home church is probably the best way to avoid the evil influences of rock music anyway[vi] (Rock Music: any music not found in a hymn book).
Those children will grow up to court the person their parents approve.[vii] They will also have as many children as possible[viii], whom they will homeschool.
And that’s just the expectation for raising children. It goes much further than that. Here is a summary:
Finding a job – No unions, strict guidelines for hiring a woman secretary,[ix] nothing with humanistic influence (medical profession),[x] preferably self-employed,[xi] avoid partnerships.[xii] (And remember that if a woman is in a position of authority over a man at work, the company is disobeying God’s order.) Mothers should not work outside the home.[xiii]
Home management – Clutter is demonic. Everything must have a place and be in its place. Everything must look appealing. Attractiveness is part of a good testimony, and a lack of upkeep means you are slothful (no room for lack of finances to paint your house or replace your carpet).[xiv]
Health care – You do not vaccinate, do circumcise[xv], do use natural remedies whenever possible,[xvi] do get health care advice from your church leadership (that’s the *real* meaning behind the verse that says to call for the elders of the church and be anointed with oil when you are sick [James 5:14-16])[xvii], do not use most alternative health care (it’s new age), do be suspicious of traditional medicine (it’s humanistic),[xviii] do avoid a C-section at almost any cost,[xix] do use a midwife,[xx] do remember that male OB’s are probably perverts,[xxi] do remember that there are *hidden* principles in the OT law that are there for your health benefit (who knew that God made a rule about not wearing clothing made out of mixed fibers because He didn’t want your magnetic field to be messed up?).
Picking out a spouse – Husband must be the older one in the couple,[xxii] neither can be divorced[xxiii] and it’s best if their parents were also never divorced,[xxiv] must not be of a “different” race (I’m being gracious – I think they only ever told us girls not to marry black men), all parents must completely approve of the potential partner,[xxv]siblings should like him/her, and it’s very important that you know the person is God’s will for you to marry before you develop any feelings for that person.[xxvi]
There are rules (I mean, principles) for when to have sex,[xxvii] how to know whether or not to adopt (the answer is not to adopt),[xxviii] how to manage your weight,[xxix] how to pick food off a menu (if you start by looking at the name of the entrée rather than the price, you are unwise),[xxx] even specific ways to pray to get the most out of humbling yourself and crying out to God. (There’s a form for how to get through all the positions of prayer during your morning prayer time and specific step-by-step instructions on how to “cry out to God” when you have a serious need.)
Families were given schedules on how to order their mornings. (Get up 1.5 hours before dad goes to work. Spend ½ hour getting ready, ½ hour on breakfast, ½ hour on Wisdom Search.[xxxi]) Young ladies were given instruction on how to fix their hair [xxxii]and wear makeup [xxxiii]. In the midwifery program, we were told not to show up at a birth with our hair in a braid or wearing wool socks.
The list goes on and on. You should fast Sundays,[xxxiv] never buy a Cabbage Patch doll,[xxxv] find the meaning of your name,[xxxvi] quote Scripture while going to sleep,[xxxvii] never drink alcohol,[xxxviii] avoid denim, stay out of debt,[xxxix] don’t eat meat and dairy in the same meal.
Almost every area of life can be completely governed by these “principles.” There is little room for doing it differently because the principle is somehow connected to a Bible verse. Your personal walk with God is made unnecessary because you just have to obey the principles. And for me, I was left with a joyless, empty, man-centered version of Christianity.
A pastor friend said it well when he said, “I don’t envy you. A life governed by principles destroys your prayer life.” You have no need to walk in the Spirit because the principles already make every decision for you.
But the Bible doesn’t teach us to live by rules; it tells us to walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:18). It says that where the Spirit of God is there is liberty (2 Cor. 3:17). It tells us not to give up our freedom (Gal. 5:1).
I am so grateful for the freedom I’ve found in Jesus and that I don’t have to live by all those suffocating “principles” anymore.
[i] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 179-182
[ii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 28-29
[iii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 351-352
[iv] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 343-353
[v] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 23-25
[vi]Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 133-138
[vii]http://billgothard.com/teaching/courtship
[viii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, p. 145
[ix] Advanced Seminar Textbook, p. 219
[x] Basic Care Bulletin 3
[xi] http://iblp.org/questions/why-did-god-allow-me-lose-my-job – Recommends starting your own business.
[xii] Men’s Manual, Volume 2, p. 206ff
[xiii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, p. 107
[xiv] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 39-43
[xv] Basic Care Bulletin 11
[xvi] Basic Care Bulletin 6
[xvii] Basic Care Bulletin 3
[xviii] Basic Care Bulletin 1
[xix] Basic Care Bulletin 7
[xx] Emphasized by establishing midwifery program
[xxi] Taught during midwifery program
[xxii] Vow asked of young women in apprenticeship sessions at Knoxville and Sacramento at least 1993-2007.
[xxiii]http://billgothard.com/teaching/courtship – “If one party has been married and divorced, and the previous partner is still living, it would not be God’s will for that individual to marry another person.”
[xxiv] Vow asked of young women in apprenticeship sessions at Knoxville.
[xxv]http://billgothard.com/teaching/courtship – “It is impossible for a couple—regardless of their age—to keep this commandment if they refuse to listen to the counsel and cautions of their parents on the matter of marriage.”
[xxvi]http://billgothard.com/teaching/courtship – “One of the valuable rewards of courtship is the protection of emotions that are stirred up by physical and emotional interaction, until the time when it is clearly God’s will to proceed into marriage.”
[xxvii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, pp. 179-182
[xxviii] Basic Care Bulletin 5
[xxix] Taught during apprenticeship sessions and programs, including EXCEL
[xxx] http://iblp.org/questions/how-can-i-get-best-buy – “Look at the price before you look at the product.” Discussed and applied during Financial Freedom Seminar.
[xxxi]Advanced Seminar Textbook, p. 239
[xxxii] Biblical Principles of Hair Length for Single Ladies
[xxxiii] Taught at EXCEL
[xxxiv] Taught and enforced at all training centers
[xxxv] Letter sent to families in 1986
[xxxvi] Wisdom Booklet 17, Preliminary Edition, pp. 719-730
[xxxvii] Basic Seminar Follow-up Course, “How to Begin and Maintain Meditation,” p. 1
[xxxviii] Advanced Seminar Textbook, p. 31
[xxxix] Men’s Manual, Volume 2, p. 48ff
"in the midwifery program, we were told to not show up at a birth with our hair in a braid or wearing wool socks."
Is this to prevent the baby from being born with the cord around its neck or to keep it from bleating like a sheep?
"how to pick food off a menu"
Ask for a napkin or clean menu.
"a form for how to get through all the positions of prayer during your morning prayer time"
Christian yoga??
"do remember that male OB’s are probably perverts"
would it be ok if he were gay?
Esbee, you make me smile a lot. But, this morning you made me laugh.
All that comes to mind is this:
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30
From the NIV, of course. ;)
Ileata,
Thank you so much for this article. You really make a solid case for the extreme legalism of ATI. It is far more than just a homeschool curriculum, but a program that seeks to completely control nearly every aspect of its member's lives.
I really appreciate how you reference every point that you make.
You said:
"You have no need to walk in the Spirit because the principles already make every decision for you.
But the Bible doesn’t teach us to live by rules, it tells us to walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:18)"
I am so glad that you made this point.
Gothard teaches the following:
“We don’t keep the law in order to gain or maintain salvation, but we should apply the principles of the law to avoid sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption” (Advanced Textbook, p 173)
But, the Bible tells us something completely different than this. It tells us that living under the Law is bondage and that living in the Spirit is freedom in Christ (Gal 5:1-25)
Galatians 5:16 specifically tells us that we tame the flesh by walking in the Spirit:
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
And, as you note, Galatians 5:18
"But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
ATI/Gothard would have us return to the Law, rather than walk in the Spirit.
The problem is that ATI presents these instructions for living life not as mere suggestions, but as instructions from God, citing Scripture to support each of the legalistic standards. Never mind that virtually every supporting Scriptural reference is taken wildly out of context.
The RG editorial team took the time to reference the points. I have "cleansed my home" and have thrown away almost everything we had from ATI/IBLP so I no longer have all the sources.
I thought they did an amazing job!
Well said, Illeata and Kevin! So true! So glad to finally be free from the bondage of the law to walk in step with the Spirit!
Ileata,
This is so good. Thank you. This had to take a lot of time.
My 2 youngest sons missed the ATI experience. I plan on sharing this article with them so they can get a big picture in a clear and easy way. Bless you for your labor.
No vaccinations?! Take a walk through any 19th century grave-yard (pre-vaccination era) and see the multitude of tomb-stones for the young children and infants. It's heart-breaking.
I was exposed to Gothard's teachings over 40 years ago, and refused to be subjected to them.
God gave us Free Will.
He then gave us freedom FROM our will, freedom to respond to Him as friends and lovers, not as bondslaves. John 15:11-17.
Simone de Maigret wrote "God gave us Free Will."
I have a couple of sons who sometimes hear something similar when I think they are wayward; I say, "Dude, it is your choice, you do not answer to me. If you think you can get by with that when you stand before God, go for it."
Thanks for your comment about walking through any 19th century grave-yard. I had forgotten that history.
Wonderful article. I had never heard of ATI until coming here, although I attended one basic seminar and the pastor of the church I was attending was just starting to teach some of Gothard's principles. Fortunately I left after hearing about the Umbrella of Protection and how married women shouldn't work outside the home. According to the pastor she'll end up cheating on her husband with her boss. I didn't know that this particular gem was from Gothard, but I knew I had enough (there were other issues and problems I had with this church). Also God Bless Recovering Grace.
A pastor friend said it well when he said, “I don’t envy you. A life governed by principles destroys your prayer life.” You have no need to walk in the Spirit because the principles already make every decision for you."
You may have just really touched on a piece of why I struggle with my prayer life. Like you, though I have recovered so much, I find that tightness in my chest at realizing things aren't right and feeling I am more affected by the past than I would like to admit. This happens more than any other circumstance when I seek to pray. I feel so much pressure from the past being taught so many steps, principles, and things to do in my relationship with God that a feeling I am missing something just pushes any connection with God or openess in my heart away.
I had the tightness just reading the list in the essay, the things I still believe strongly. A thing can be right, just and true, but without freedom and joy, it's just law and works--death.
Don, I agree and love what you said "A thing can be right, just and true, but without freedom and joy, it's just law and works--death." I just did not have the courage to say it.
Illeata and RG: this was a great piece. The citations are invaluable. I hope someday we can build a wiki of the false teachings accompanied by better exegesis. This article would fit right in that.
Yep, pretty much all the principles I was raised by. Hook, line and sinker.
We never used ATI with our children--to be honest, I thought it was weird. But we did very much buy into a lot of Gothard's principles and our church became very legalistic. It was horrible! By God's grace, we have completely turned around!
When you spoke about how all of a sudden when the ATI woman spoke to you, you were so drawn back into the feelings from your time in ATI. That's very much how former abuse can play out for years. You think you have forgiven a father who was very angry and would beat you, then a man in your life gets very angry and you flash back to being a child, abused and beaten.
Thankful for God's overwhelming grace and love as we go through these times of healing! I really appreciate so many here who have opened their hearts and lives to help others become free from Gothard's principles.
Reading this, I remember being part of a cult - "like" organization when I was in college. University Bible Fellowship - an evangelical group out of Korea. As this ATI was, so was that group - controlled by works. Not grace. This group still operates on campuses today, carefully controlling the face it presents to the world, threatening those who oppose it. This is chilling really.
When I was growing up, my parents were pressured to go to attend ATI, but thank God, we couldn't afford it. People in our church would come back with glowing reports of how ATI had "helped them." Also, my father sensed what type of group ATI was - and that it wrongly interpreted the Bible.
More info about University Bible Fellowship (UBF) and its cultic nature, and the need to recovery from its teachings: http://www.priestlynation.com
Gothardism is a good example of how to boil a frog alive. It is done slowly by turning up the temp and before the frog can hop out to escape, it is boiled alive. When one reads the list of so called principals, it is natural to ask, "how in the world would any normal person fall for all of this?" It still defies any logic how married people with children let a single man with no such experience micro manage their lives, especially when 99% of Protestant ministers are married. Just reading this small sample, I felt like I was being choked. Sadly, there are some principals spelled out in the Bible like marriage being between one man and one woman, sex is God's gift for marriage, not before, not with others after. But Bill has certainly clouded up a very basic moral foundation with his extreme micro management which has no basis in any reality but Bill's sicko mind. There is a saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Gothard certainly paved a road with his so called "biblical" intentions but this road was really leading people to disaster and hell on earth.
Rob; I think people (parents mainly) fall for this because they are so concerned for their kids in an immoral world. They don't want them to be corrupted. However, like you, I just can't stomach Gothardism as it does just as much damage from the other direction (legalism). Somehow, by God's grace, we need a balance of protection through biblical principles and freedom for new discovery into a world we are called to go into for Christ. The sad reality seems to be that many ATI families never let their children truly grow up and make their own decisions. We never did ATI (I saw the fallacy right away). However, we do homeshcool, and even with that, there is still a tendency to over-protect our adult children. We are learning to pray a lot and "let go."
Is it true that Gothard was never married and never had children?
Yes it's true. Never married and never had children. Yet, somehow, he is an expert on marriage and raising children, or so he and his followers believe.
Never adopted, nor trained in the special issues that adopted children sometimes face. Yet, he is an expert on this too. Not a nutritionist, nor a doctor, yet expert in these fields as well. No training on sexual abuse counseling, yet he teaches on this as well. You get the idea. When someone who has actual knowledge in the fields in which he teaches comes upon his teachings, the reaction is generally shock that he gets away with doing what he's doing.
What still shocks me is his total dismissal of attending college. I can't believe people really bought into that. Education has been a hallmark in Christianity in 2000 years. The university system we have today was started by monasteries in the middle ages. There are so many wonderful and faithful Christian colleges. But even just attending local community colleges for the many practical and fine programs they offer is another great option. Bill himself attended college. Unless he had some horrible experiences himself, I don't get how college is not "God's way" there is no justification from scripture at all. You can't turn back the clock of time. Society is no longer an agrarian or craftsman based economy. Yes, there are notable people that dropped out of college and made it big but those people are few and far between. The setup of ATI which just ended with it's students working for him in the name of internships and mentoring is fraudulent. There are not the jobs nor the means to support oneself and your big family that he likewise promoted.
Good point. A friend of mine, who was an ATI dad for 9 years, recently shared with me something that happened at one of the parent meetings. One of the dads was tearfully lamenting to the group the struggles that his daughter was facing in getting hired. Per the organization's encouragement, she did not go to college. The man shared how Bill Gothard had told them that their kids did not need to go to college; that by being brought up in ATI they would have superior character to their college degreed competitors; that the employer would see the superior character and bright countenance in the interview would hire their non -degreed children, over their competition. I guess it sounded great when Gothard told them this, but it wasn't true. In the real world this was not the experience of his daughter. After that meeting they never saw this family again.
College is not for everyone. But, it is the right path for many, and seems foolish to take that option away from children and close so many doors of opportunity in doing so.
kevin, I believe part of what was overlooked was many young adults outside of IBLP/ATI also have great characters plus a quality education. ATI isn't/wasn't the only way to build character. Nor were they the superior road to a life that walks guided by the Holy Spirit and Scripture. Therefore it does become hard to compete for jobs. They have been deceived concerning the true nature of their competitor.
In a pervious thread someone called the under 30 generation cry babies. I know a large number of under 30's. That isn't who they are. The ones I know are doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, police officers, firemen, museum curators, missionaries, youth pastors, IT supervisors, etc. All are thankful for their parents investment in their education. All could not be in their profession without an education.
Hi Rob,
I believe Bill Gothard was patterning his educational views after the Amish who educate their children through the eighth grade then apprentice them into their future jobs. The Amish are said to believe that more education than that leads to a prideful spirit and the best learning comes from the Bible.
I've read where the Amish 8th grade education is equivalent to a 12th grade public school education. They don't send their children to college nor do the have colleges of their own. It's to protect them from outside influences, they say.
Experience still seems to be the best teacher and the practical skills I've learned are the ones I've used the most.
I like the Amish and I don't blame Bill Gothard for being influenced by them. They may be a little quirky, according to some, but they are gentle, peaceful people and follow the ordnung or they leave, or are asked to leave, the their church.
Sorry for the couple of typos there. I didn't proof read it very well.
Sorry for the typos. I didn't proof read it very well.
Nancy2, good points.
"They have been deceived concerning the true nature of their competitor. "
Indeed. The job market is competitive and always has been. An employer is going to always look for character, but if you have two individuals who come across as having good character, in the real world the job is going to the one that has the degree.
"ATI isn't/wasn't the only way to build character. Nor were they the superior road to a life that walks guided by the Holy Spirit and Scripture."
So true. Ironically, also, when you convince people that they are superior, more approved by God, because they are walking a more holy walk by following standards and man-made principles, you actually create a character problem. I've personally witnessed a lot of pride among ATI followers, as they look down upon others who don't follow their standards.
I'm a member of well-known missions agency, doing technical computer support work. As much a character and Bible knowledge are valued, you can't do the job without an education, or at least specific technical training. Many of my colleagues have masters degrees or even doctorates. Our organization's academic qualifications have opened doors for ministry in places around the world where the Gospel itself is not particularly welcomed.
Gothard's approach to this issue might work within a tight-knit community like the Amish, and maybe that is his ideal. It doesn't make sense for Christians who want to be able to work and interact in society at large and have their lives have an impact for the Kingdom of God, in places where unbelievers actually exist.
Kevin, I appreciate your tying all these issues together, but I've never appreciated the critique that an unmarried man cannot teach the truth about marriage and family. Jesus, Paul and John Paul II have all provided invaluable instruction to Christians about marriage, moral purity and sexuality. Jesus and Paul are our primary teachers about loving children. The problem is not marital status but arrogance and presumptuousness, when a man offers his opinion or preference as GOD'S BEST.
I think there is a parallel between BG and James Dobson (who was married and now has a "ministry" that supports at least one of his middle aged children). Both of these men had stable happy childhoods (apparently) and taught as of God the values of their parents, with minimal actual new insights. Dobson used his academic credentials in psychology to sell "good old fashioned" parenting. Gothard used his youth ministry and Wheaton credentials to sell authoritarianism. Both, in my opinion, mixed truth with preference. Both used Scripture (proof texting) to sell their human ideas. Both helped some people. Yet both substituted their views for a sound exegesis of Scripture.
At the same time, most of the worst teachers of authoritarianism, particularly the recent patriarchy leaders, are married and their wives are most oppressed. We should thank God that no woman had to bear the cross of living as "Mrs. Gothard"!
Don you said, We should thank God that no woman had to bear the cross of living as "Mrs. Gothard"! Maybe I am a bad person, but this made me smile.
Don-
I agree about the marital status issue; I wouldn't automatically discount what an otherwise credible person said about marriage based on their marital status. S/he may need to be more careful and sensitive when suggesting practical applications, of course. In Bill Gothard's case specifically, he has delved into downright creepy degrees of micro-management that are stand-alone offensive regardless of his marital status.
I don't believe for a minute, though, that Bill Gothard had either a stable or happy childhood; just that it was "packaged and labeled" that way, similar to what he has attempted to do with his "new approach to life." This is entirely my opinion and conjecture. I think deep-seated misogyny is at the root of basically all he teaches; it is overwhelmingly evident in every case study, every "testimonial," and every Bill-version Bible story. I believe there's a story that may never be told in this lifetime of where his intense female-hatred (and assumed sexual perversion/s) originated.
Again - just my own plausible explanation for the exceedingly great damage that has been done.
Hi Don, I appreciate your point. I think I wasn't trying to say that unmarried men or women cannot teach God's basic outline for marriages and raising children. One could use the Catholic Church which is lead by single men and realize that the Catholic church certainly teaches a clear a basic moral outline for marriage and children. What I think the difference between the Catholic Church and someone like Bill Gothard is that Bill went beyond a basic moral outline to micromanagement of every single thing in great detail. Catholic Church teaching on marriage goes hand in hand with it basic teaching on sexuality and it's purpose as designed by God which is mutual self giving between one man and one woman as well as the result of openness to the gift of a new life. Bill never teaches that marriage was suppose to be a relationship of mutual self giving out of love. He teaches an mechanical authority structure as God's design which is not how God meant marriage to be. There is also a huge difference between Catholic teaching on birth control as spelled out in Humanae Vitae and Theology of the Body by John Paul II and how Bill taught about marital relationship between men and women.
Don,
I appreciate your comments, thoughtful as always. As far as unmarried men, without children, teaching about marriage and children, I would not say that it is impossible, but it presents some significant challenges and disadvantages for the teacher. I don't believe there is any substitute for experience, but that is not to say that there are not words of wisdom that can be taught by anyone with special knowledge and insight.
Of course, we are talking specifically about Bill Gothard. With Gothard and his cradle to grave step by step approach to virtually every aspect of marriage and child rearing, we are talking about something totally different.
I respectfully disagree with you on using Jesus and Paul as examples of unmarried men who taught on marriage, at least in the context of them doing so setting a precedent for others to do so. Jesus is Jesus. He's the creator of marriage and children. He gets to teach on anything in creation with authority and you can't really compare that to anyone else's teaching. Paul is Paul; selected by God to write God's instructions in Scripture. His teachings are considered the inerrant word of God, and so I don't think there is really a comparison creating precedent there either.
I'd like to suggest an analogy to heart surger. Let's say you are going in for a needed open heart surgery operation. You have a choice of surgeons: Surgeon A is very experienced and has completed multiple successful open heart surgeries before. Surgeon B has never done one- never even operated on anyone for any type of surgery before. He has, however, read the same book that Surgeon A read, about open heart surgery.
To bring the analogy even closer to Gothard. Surgeon B has read the book on open heart surgery, but his analysis of the book is very different from all the other surgeons, in fact, different from anyone in history who has read this instruction manual- he draws unique and strange conclusions from the lessons, and concludes things about surgical theory that is totally rejected by the professionals in the field of surgery.
Now, which surgeon to choose?
I've heard various Popes say some wonderful things about loving one another- of course this can apply to our how we love our wives and how we love our children and can be profitable. But, I'm going to always be a bit skeptical if someone who has never been married or had kids gives me specific details on handling everyday nuances of marriage and child rearing. There are some things that only experience can teach.
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. My main point is that it was the substance of the teaching, not the status of the teacher. I was not saying Paul or Jesus is a precedent to follow, but merely pointing out that singleness is not a categorical disqualification for teaching God's truth about sex, marriage, purity or the complementary nature of the sexes. What Gothard taught was egregious error. It was not merely unqualified by status. Whatever discount his status contributed, that was the least of his inadequacies.
And Rob, I am right in the middle of what you said. Love it, love it. Nothing made it all make sense like TOB. Imaging God in relationship. Awesome!
Mary Olive, how well do you really know the Amish? Often, like IBLP/ATI, they crush people for the sake of keeping appearances. I personally knew an Amish woman who left her husband because he was molesting their daughters, and the Amish bishops tryed to force her to return to him. Her whole family was excommunicated vecause they supported her. Now her children can't sttend the local Amish school or see their Amish friends. You are right. BG would have loved to put us all into the Amish mold, but he knew he wouldn't have much of a following that way.
I'm sure that Amish communities vary, but I've heard that they CAN be very oppressive in their legalistic and controlling tendencies. I don't think freedom in Christ is their strong suit!
I just finished reading "Escape". By Carolyn Jessop. It is her story of living in thr FLDS movement and escaping from it. There are frightening similarities to the Bill Gothard Movement. It is an ugly story and I do not recommend it for anyone who has PTSD from Gothard. But I do recommend it as a warning to everyone else. It is on sale on Amazon Kindke for $1.99.
I think that book is similar to "I Fired God" another escape book from IFB and BG comes up quite often in it. That book as well is a very tough read. It isn't for the faint of heart. I have seen Escape and probably will look into it.
this is a reply to Mary Olive.
I am not sure if you are aware but patterning your homeschool education program on the Amish is really short sighted and naive at best. Their 8th grade only education is not equivalent to 12th grade education. Likewise, I am not so sure why there is this fascination with the Amish. Maybe you are not aware but because there is only an 8th grade education and these kids are now out and about and bored. The Amish youth have some big problems with drug and alcohol abuse during the time from 8th grade until they decide to officially join their community. So if Bill Gothard was patterning his ideas on the Amish, he didn't take a closer look at them. For people that are truly isolated from society, they have taken on some major society ills such as drug, alcohol and sex. All the things BG was trying to avoid with his teaching and ideas. Yes, college is not for everyone. Yes life experience is always a wonderful teacher but to tell others that that it's not God plan to attend further education no matter what form that may be is really setting people up for marginal jobs that can't support themselves and their big families they are suppose to have. The Amish are farmers and craftsmen and that only goes so far in life.
The Amish have their own little culture where they can make a living if they stay in their community. If they leave the Amish, it's hard to make a living with that 8th grade education.
I will say something not too touched on in this little comment listing, but something that breaks so many hearts, is the fact that children are shunned if they don't completely and utterly comply with ALL the ATI standards. Families are torn apart not because some want to reject God but that they may see a little different interpretation of a passage. God is personal, he could well have made us ALL think totally alike in all things related to scripture but it seems instead he wants to show us day by day, step by step. We need real love, grace and acceptance as we each make our journey through this life. It grieves me that parents homeschool in part to make a family a family and the dogma tears us apart. Same with the body of Christ.
Someone recently said "taking Gods name in vain" is also saying "thus says The Lord". How quickly we judge ourselves better than others or don't accept our children as is, (exactly the same way God accepted us btw).
Variety in all of nature seems to be Gods way. (Yes, there are absolutes, but it's God who gets to decide what they are.) The rest is a vast array of His handiwork in what we can create and become because we are created in His image.
This is so very true. This is the burden we carried all the time. So totally unnecessary.
I thought the Amish had this thing for young people called Rumspringa, where they get to experience "the world" and sort of get the bug of what they're missing out of their system. That's where they rationalize that they're staying because they choose to. Though that seems to be different for different Amish communities. Perhaps Bill Gothard patterned his ministry around it just without Rumspringa. Thinking they do better not knowing about those things and then they "stay pure". But there ARE reports that such things happen in these isolated communities too. The only difference is, they're not supposed to talk of it.
And I remember this reality show Amish in the City, where these Amish young adults were in a house with "normal" people their age, and a few of them got GEDs in the process. They had planned to go back to the community having trained in a trade(one of them talked of getting nursing training) and using it better there.
Keep sharing; I wonder how the organization has been doing under different leadership.
That is accurate, there is a Rumspringa with the Amish and the drug and alcohol abuse is usually during this time. However one can't play with fire and become unscathed. Many sadly become addicted to substance use etc. I am sure that Bill with his teaching that children were to obey everything from their parents as well as stay at home overlooked Rumspringa. Another isolated type community that Bill Gothard used was Orthodox Jews. His rules for food and marital relations were certainly from them. However, education is highly valued with all Jews and that includes the Orthodox. That is why many become doctors, lawyers and other advanced degreed careers. Arranged marriages are more common in some segments of the Orthodox Jews. It seems like Bill Gothard was trying to build his own isolated community borrowing different things from different groups but Is that really God's way of reaching out to the world for Christ? Retreating from the world into making your own little world is never really supported anywhere in Scripture. It's not a fulfillment of the great commission if one is retreating behind some wall.
Yikes!, Thanks for the article lleata. I am exhausted from just reading the rules and regs w/o having to do them all......
My family joined ATI in 1987 after hearing Gothard describe in a seminar the apprenticeship opportunities it would offer as an alternative to college. He promised that children would be matched up with professionals in their chosen field so they could learn in a better environment. Needless to say, these promised opportunities never materialized, and in fact when my dad would ask people about them, they said they had no idea what he was talking about. When I reached college age, my parents finally gave up and left the program so my siblings and I could go to college.
Heidi, your dad is correct. I joined one year before your family, and I remember hearing BG say the same thing many times. Ii was one of the biggest reason that kept me enrolled in ITA for as long as I was. I chose to judge his apprenticeship lies as evil. He does not get a free pass from me.
yes, the real sad part is that there are many wonderful study to work type programs and internships. My fourth year of college was a work and study internship in a hospital. But that was after I already had a 3 year foundation of college science courses. There is a parochial high school in Detroit that is likewise a work/study program for disadvantage children. But all these types of internships are based on the participate having a foundation of in class room instruction. BG didn't set that up with other industries to do internships because he didn't set up a good foundation to send ATI students to work for others. It all pointed back from what I've seen shared here to his ministry. He promised a law program which really never existed but one isn't going to learn what they really need by following one lawyer around in his office and then take a bar examine and be expected to pass. Law is too broad to do that such a narrow approach. This is also true of anything in medicine. One needs the strong science foundation first and then build on that in either nursing or physician or whatever. Hands on in any program come after strong classroom instruction. It is fraudulent to lead others to believe otherwise. It is such a shame, I really feel badly for ATI students trying to put their careers back on track.
BG didn't trust anyone else so he could not expand internships outside IBLP/ATI. My gosh, some worldly professional might have made a pass at one of our daughters or sons! Eschew marriage, eschew learning the skills to work and serve God through Bill. That's the ticket! True Success.
Don, this statement is a huge red flag for me personally. I was always taught that if a person couldn't trust others it was because deep down inside they knew they were untrustworthy. They find it difficult to understand the strength that the Lord will equip a person with when facing temptation, but instead try to muster up enough strength in their own abilities. Interesting...especially if BG really has trust issues.
Very good points Don. I love the last part "serve God through Bill" phrase. If only we would accept this phrase as truth, don't ya know, everything will just be peachy.
Nancy2, I believe the phrase is 'projecting'. An honest person assumes others deal honestly, (until they get knocked around by the real world long enough to learn discernment..) a dishonest person assumes everyone around them is trying to deceive, because that is all the two individuals know.
Megan thank you. For me this "An honest person assumes others deal honestly, (until they get knocked around by the real world long enough to learn discernment..) " happened before the age of 21. I can't imagine a man of BG's age still concerned about those older being able to pray for discernment and act upon the Holy Spirit's guidance.
But then one of my favorite passages is
2 Sam. 22:25-27
25 The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to my cleanness in his sight.
26 “To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
27 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.
I have always had a great appreciation for the shrewdness of God.
Nancy and Megan, what you have said can be true, but there were a lot of people Honest Abe did not trust, because he was wise. Also, someone can have real control freak problems without necessarily being "untrustworthy". The record seems to present a history that BG lost one job and was bound and determined to "be the boss" for the rest of his career. I saw the withering of so many of his ideas and dreams as a result of his inability to delegate and trust others when I had no reason to believe he was insincere. Despite what we know now, I still think people can be weak in faith without being untrustworthy themselves. And, someone pure in heart can be far TOO trusting. That's why con men pray on the innocent. Yes, frauds are wise to fraud and less trusting themselves, and that may explain BG's distrust. But my opinion that he did not trust others is based only on my long distant observations, not on any admission or documented proof.
[In choosing a spouse] "must not be of a “different” race (I’m being gracious – I think they only ever told us girls not to marry black men)"
May I ask whether race is/was a big factor in IBLP/ATI teachings, either overtly, or implicitly?
@Diana S.: I don't recall specifically what the ATI materials contain regarding race. I do know that after my family joined ATI, race was a hot issue. As a teenager, I opened the can of worms once and for all with my parents to try to understand what they believed regarding race and marriage. Their scapegoat was "cultural differences." After that conversation, I knew that this was another teaching that I could discard.
I would say it is due to racism.
I firmly explained to my children that a devoted Christ-follower of another race had more in common with our family than an unbeliever or apostate of our race. Crossing that bridge can be difficult in a race conscious society, but any other conviction denies the Gospel. BG certainly did not overtly promote the Gospel view on this point. This is particularly shown by his allowing the prejudices and godlessness of parents to veto a selection of a spouse.
I don't recall many explicit messages that were racially-oriented but there were some implicit ones. It doesn't help that there is very little racial diversity within the program (to be fair, that's by far not an isolated concern).
But implicit messages - this could sound silly but Bill made a big deal at one event of not being able to handle listening to the audio of a certain Black preacher, so he had his assistant listen and transcribe it for him. Everyone was saying it was a great sermon, but Bill just couldn't handle the emotional delivery. He explained to the young people in a youth session, I believe in the same context (but it's been a long time) that as you get more mature as a Christian your emotions tend to level out, so you aren't given to extremes of being up and down. I remember seeing Bill's face and hearing his voice when he talked about that Black style of preaching - it seemed to me like mockery and disgust, and that rubbed me the wrong way even at the time.
I don't want to go beyond and turn that incident into something more than it was. I'm not trying to make some big deal out of it. I'm describing my own personal impressions of an event a long time ago. But for me as a young person at the time, I got the distinct impression that Black preaching was not respected and not considered entirely appropriate at IBLP/ATI.
I grew up with a similar vibe from my parents, Matthew, so maybe it was there in the backs of people's minds.
Thank you very much for these thoughtful replies. I believe I recall reading elsewhere on this site that one of the reasons rock music was rejected was because of its African antecedents, that Africa was perceived as heathen. Perhaps I haven't got that quite right, but however it was expressed, it struck me as being thoroughly laced with racial prejudice. The caution against miscegenation cited in this article seemed to add another layer to this perception. Am I on target with my impression of BG's position on music with African roots?
I thank you also for your patience with my questions. By following RG, I've been learning a lot about a cross-section of (mostly) American religious culture that I had never encountered before. It's opened my eyes to a lot of things.
It may not be what we would call racism, but the idea of all African music being evil is at best a horrible stereotype. For one thing, it reduces the rich mosaic of the African continent into a single monolithic culture. It also elevates Western music as *inherently* better. If Gothard wanted to talk about music, he ought to have focused on lyrics promoting sin, or in the case of contemporary Christian music, lyrics that provide no edification. There was fertile ground there, and he went with something that's just nonsense and fairly offensive once you dig into it.
If you bring together this idea of African music being related to witchcraft somehow (I think that's the explanation; please correct me if I'm wrong), discouraging interracial marriage, and telling scare stories about adoption (which often involves a family adopting a child from a different racial/ethnic background), and then add in the fact that he left an inner-city ministry to set up shop in an incredibly white neighborhood*, the picture one gets is... troubling.
*I actually live in the Oak Brook area, though not in Oak Brook proper. I went to the public high school that most Oak Brook kids attend. In 2000 that school was about 95% white—and that was more diverse than it had been. Gothard did not establish IBLP in a melting pot.
Yes, you are on target with your interpretation. When I attended the Sound Foundations course in Indianapolis, one of the handouts was titled "The Roots of Rock Music". It started in Africa with witchdoctors and talking drums; talked about the slaves bringing over their voodoo culture, moved to the spirituals; attempted to trace the etymology of jazz terms like 'cool' to pagan origins; and concluded with connecting Elvis Presley with the black music culture. Some years later, I decided to investigate the claims, and found none of the apparent connections were accurate - I got rid of all my material in my disgust, or I might have sent it to RG for analysis.
Incidentally, I have since been in regions where they have talking drums and animistic rituals, and there is really very little connection between the two. Drums are used in celebrations, rituals often have no music at all. And the rhythms used in their drumming sound nothing like the evil backbeats we were taught to identify - they are highly complex, variations based on motives more mathematically complex than what we have in Western music. Often, the higher drums actually harmonize in rhythmic chorus with the lower ones. Talking drums simply imitate the patterns of human speech, which, as most Westerners do not understand the languages spoken, they do not immediately recognize.
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:5-11 (What I heard Mr. Gothard to be trying to exhort us to, when he spoke of giving up our rights, was the truth of God's Word shared in Phil. 2:5-11, and other places.)
"But if you (WHEN you) bite and devour one another, take heed lest you be consumed BY one another." We often cause WAY MORE destruction when we bite and devour one another, with our words, as we respond to things that are wrong, or may be wrong, as we "keep on going astray," responding "our OWN way" rather than "God's ways." Meaning, the ways God (our Father in Heaven, IF He is our Father), or Jesus Christ tells us to respond to our brother when he sins against us, or when we think he has...
"SEE TO IT that no one falls short of the grace of God, that NO root of bitterness, springing up causes trouble and by it MANY are DEFILED." Hebrews 12:15(
(Beware: By your root of bitterness, MANY are defiled)
"So also the tongue is a small part of the Body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!" James 3:5 (There is GREAT destruction by a forest fire!)
These are good verses, Elaine. Just in case there is any confusion, let's be clear that God does not intend his Word to be used as a mask for hiding hypocrisy and enabling abuse. This is usually frowned upon, but I am going to devote the rest of this comment to a lengthy quote from a speech by Jesus:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matthew S. Wouldn't is be SO thrilling to be involved in, and to become serious about humbly receiving and heeding every word of God, including that VERY sobering, important passage that you shared, SO that God's Kingdom would COME and His will would be DONE in EACH one of OUR lives, just as it is in Heaven? :)
well... I don't disagree with your general point but that's not what I read those verses to be saying. I read those verses to be saying, straight-up, that Jesus rejects hypocrisy on the part of those who claim to lead in God's name.
Matthew S. I very much agree with you, that "God does not intend his Word to be used as a mask for hiding hypocrisy and enabling abuse." I surely did not intend to send that message, by what I said. I believe that passage you quoted has been too often ignored, and we've reaped what we sowed by doing that also...
What I was trying to speak to, is the whole topic of, resolving issues such as this one, in the ways Jesus taught His followers to, rather than trying to do it "our own way" as I have way too often done, while claiming to be His follower. There are thrilling instructions in God's Word to us, on the topic. I do not claim to any-where-near have it all figured out. But, I do think we will experience some thrilling results, in problem-resolution, and genuine love for one another, IF we choose to humbly "submit to God, resist the devil" - By faith in God, proving ourselves DOERS of the Word and not merely hearers who delude themselves" ... :)
@Elaine Ferguson: I have to share my daughter's recent essay with you and any other readers interested. :) Ironically, her entire class at (Christian) school got in trouble last week for saying unkind things. They all had to write a short essay over the weekend regarding "the power of the tongue." :) Thankfully, my experience in ATI rendered me quite helpful to my daughter in finding Bible references for her. The rest of the words are her own:
The Power of the Tongue
Proverbs 10:31 “The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, but the perverse tongue will be cut off.” People that speak wicked things (like curse words), will find that they get punished frequently. However, the people who speak positively don’t get in trouble as often.
Proverbs 12:19 “Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.” Lying is a sin against God. The punishment for lying is that you have eternal separation from God.
Proverbs 15:4 “A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.” Kind words build people up, but mean words and curse words break people down.
Proverbs 21:23 “Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue, keeps himself out of trouble.” Everybody who keeps his mouth shut will stay out of trouble.
Psalm 34:13 “Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.” You need to control your tongue, and not speak lies.
Wow! Thank you, Brumby, for sharing your daughter's essay with me! What an encouragement it was to me, to read it, and especially to think of your daughter giving her attention to what God says on the topic! :) May she continue to closely heed what He says, every day!
The topic of the tongue, and the dreadful damage and destruction that we cause with our untamed, unwise, unloving ... tongues surely is a fascinating, seriously sobering topic! SO MUCH and SO MANY people are damaged or destroyed by our tongues! God has explained His rich, thrilling, life-giving, love-producing perspectives and ways to us, in His Word! I SO wish that I had invested MUCH more of my time and attention, and submission, to what HE says on this topic, and all other topics!
It did seem to me, that meditating on God's perspectives (on EVERY topic), then "walking in the truths" of His Word, was what Mr. Gothard was trying to encourage us to do. I am SO VERY thankful for his courageous encouragement in that way! :)
Elaine, did he not encourage us to meditate on his perspectives (a "new approach" 2000 years after Jesus proclaimed His work "finished"), rather than God's perspective? Do you understand the thoughtful Biblical critique of Bill Gothard's false teaching and legalism that this website has presented in many ways from many writers, including some who have confronted him using all the Biblical methods of resolving disputes that can be tried? Do you deny that sometimes, dust must be shaken off feet, that Sodom must be left, that the freedom purchased on the Cross must be claimed in public confrontation with the legalists and hypocrites, a group that even included Peter and Barnabas at one point in church history?
Your admonitions appear to neglect that false teaching has not been recanted and sin has not been repented of. Do you object to truth being told to the church because it is painful, or do you detect some demonstrable falsehood in the critique of the false teacher? I come here to learn. Please correct the record here if it is false. But silencing simply conceals the falsehood, which ever side it is on. From ATI my family learned "be sure you sin will find you out". Is the community of ATI/IBLP alumni to reject the finding when it is out?
I am really trying to understand what you are contributing to the discussion here other than a blanket indictment of criticism of BG (or anyone, I suppose). If that is it, you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing BG's critics of. If not, please say what you mean so all may understand.
Elaine,
You said:
"It did seem to me, that meditating on God's perspectives (on EVERY topic), then "walking in the truths" of His Word, was what Mr. Gothard was trying to encourage us to do."
Gothard had you believe that he was teaching you to "walk in the truths" of His Word"
But, in reality, he was having you walk in the arbitrary legalism of his own personal opinion.
Do you honestly believe that the overwhelming rules taught of how to live one's life, as very well noted and documented by this article, are all based on truths of God's Word? I see them as man made rules, presented as living God's Word. Bill Gothard's opinions- his personal preferences.
In order to instruct others to walk in God's truth, you have to accurately interpret Scripture. Gothard has been critiqued by respected biblical scholars for over 40 years as having one of the most twisted interpretations of Scripture of any Christian leader.
I do sincerely hope that you will take the time to read some of the well documented examples of Gothard's Scripture twisting, false teachings and proof texting.
A Call for Discernment:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-call-for-discernment/
Issues of Concern- Bill Gothard and the Bible
Professor Ronald B Allen, Senior Professor of Bible Exposition, Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/09/issues-of-concern-bill-gothard-and-the-bible-1984/
Watchman' Bagpipes does an excellent job of pointing of the false teaching in page after page of the Basic Seminar Textbook:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/analyzing-bill-gothards-iblp-basic.html
Advanced Seminar Textbook here:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/bill-gothards-ati-textbook-examined.html
and Volume I of Character Sketches here:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/09/analysis-of-iblp-character-sketches.html
Matthew does an excellent job of contrasting Gothard's teaching on Abigail vs the true biblical account of Abigail:
Tail of Two Abigails- Part I
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/08/a-tale-of-two-abigails-2/
Tail of Two Abigails- Part II
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-tale-of-two-abigails-part-two/
There are many more, but that would be a good start.
MatthewS, I thought you might be interested to see how an add/adhd person might read your second sentence:
"...let's be clear that God does not intend his Word to be used as a mask for hiding hypocrisy and enabling abuse, this is usually frowned upon."
You understand, I am not admitting that I read it that way. But if such a thing would happen, I am sure I would scratch my head and read it again until it all made sense :-)
Let's eat grandma!
(which won't be funny unless you've seen the joke about "let's eat, grandma" versus "let's eat grandma")
You wrote:
"SEE TO IT that no one falls short of the grace of God, that NO root of bitterness, springing up causes trouble and by it MANY are DEFILED." Hebrews 12:15(
(Beware: By your root of bitterness, MANY are defiled)"
Ah, the bitterness card again. The author is expressing the joy that she has found, with discovering her freedom in Christ, after living a suffocating life, under the burden of ATI's legalism. But, to you she is bitter? And others who are in recovery and healing here? Bitter?
You throw a lot of verses, and with talk of "MANY are DEFILED", great destruction caused by the tongue and biting and devouring one another; complete with bold type added for your emphasis. To me, it reads like you are using Scripture as an attack weapon. I don't feel any love or compassion from you being expressed to those in recovery. Sure, you are citing Scripture, but the way you are presenting it seems to warn and almost attack- its the way you present it. I read your post as basically saying that people here are bitter and need to stop this.
Where is the compassion Elaine? Many of you are so good at finding verses to suggest that others are not handling a sinning brother properly, but I find it completely unloving to call those in the recovery process bitter. Where is the love and compassion for those who have been done harm?
"Meaning, the ways God (our Father in Heaven, IF He is our Father), or Jesus Christ tells us to respond to our brother when he sins against us, or when we think he has..."
So, what is God's way that you are proposing. Are you talking about the "God's way" taught by the institute, that twists Scripture, claiming that people who have been harmed and abused need to use Matt 18 and can't tell anyone else, allowing the abuse to continue? Please share with us this "God's way" that you reference.
When you have an organization which is teaching falsely, burdening people with the Law, from which Christ set us free, and giving people man made steps and rules to live their life by, while twisting Scripture to make the followers believe that these are commands from God, what way do you think it should be handled?
Ileata was suffocated and burdened by the endless rules dictated by ATI. She expresses joy in her freedom in Christ. Is she wrong to share the joy of her freedom with others, that they might too be set free? Is she wrong to tell her story that others would be warned to stay away from this organization? She's just bitter?
Scripture should not be used to hide sexual and spiritual abuse, as a tool of fear, threatening defilement and destruction, in order to silence the abused. As Christians we have a duty to warn of false teachers. As Christians, how can we stand by and let others be drawn into an organization that is seeking to bind them with legalism and remove the Grace of God from their lives? To be silent, when we have knowledge that people are being harmed, is to enable.
I think David Pigg said it well:
"!Whatever the process and direction my redemption may take,loving justice is hating injustice,disallowing cruelty,means asking hardcore disturbing questions to the calloused willful abuser,for the sake of the present and future helpless,to be those Christ chose to identify with."
Kevin, I'm VERY sorry for coming across as attacking people who are in recovery and in the healing process! I surely do NOT want to do that! To clarify, I did not intend to accuse anyone of being bitter. I do know, from my own experience, that it is SO easy to grow bitter towards anyone who sins against us, and hurts us, and that it is crucial for us to figure out how to respond to being sinned against in way that does not justify our own sinful responses. I also know that it is not an easy thing to do, or to figure out how to do it, in a way that truly glorifies God, and rightly represents Him, even to those who have SO DEEPLY hurt and wronged us...
You asked, "Where is the compassion?" Please know that I care VERY DEEPLY, and continually, about the many ways in which people are being destructively hurt and damaged by sin, false teachings, misrepresentations of Jesus Christ, etc.
You asked,"So, what is God's way that you are proposing. Are you talking about the "God's way" taught by the institute, that twists Scripture, claiming that people who have been harmed and abused need to use Matt 18 and can't tell anyone else, allowing the abuse to continue? Please share with us this "God's way" that you reference."
There is SO MUCH involved in answering that question, and I only have five more minutes before I have to go for now. To go straight to the point I'm thinking of, Matthew 18 does NOT say not to tell anyone else. In fact, it instructs us to do the opposite, IF our brother will not listen to us, or repent. Yes, too often, I have heard people explain away Matthew 18, saying it is only for the BIG, obvious sins, etc. But, if you think of it closely, Matthew 18 is full of rich insights into how to treat your brother when he has sinned, against you (or against others).
Well, I LOVE this topic! I love Jesus Christ, and I care deeply about the many people who have been deeply hurt, lead astray, etc. by the MANY ways in which we who claim to be Jesus' followers are misrepresenting Him. May His Kingdom COME and His will be DONE in our lives just as it is in Heaven.
I'm sorry that I haven't finished answering your post, Kevin. I will come back to it when I get back! :)
In all honesty, Elaine, what is your point? In quoting all the Bible verses that you do, what are you in your own words trying to say? Are you trying to say that you think it is unbiblical to discuss openly destructive false teaching and sinful behavior? In all the bible quoting, you seem to ignore Acts which records conflicts and arguments withing the early Church.
This article simply lumped Gothard's teachings together. No gossip or slander or backbiting. Just citing what he taught. This is a website dedicated to that.
Kevin, thank you for your helpful, honest input! Thank you for helping me realize how I came across! I'm VERY sorry that I came across as trying to use Scripture to hide abuse, or as a tool of fear, threatening, or to silence anyone who has been abused, or to attack anyone! I believe very much in the importance of someone who has been wronged getting the effective help that they need!
In fact, I have had many very painful, extended, many times excruciating experiences, which make Jesus' teachings, and the teachings of God's Word, make more and more very GOOD sense to me. Wow! What would it be like, IF God's Kingdom were to COME, and God's will were to be DONE, on earth (in the lives of those who truly belong to Jesus Christ) just as it is in Heaven?! :)
I had no intention of attacking anyone, or of accusing anyone, (though I do sense bitterness in some statements). I intended only to warn each person to beware of bitterness, etc. I have often failed to recognize bitterness in myself, and have reaped the very sad consequences. God's Word to us, calls it a "root of bitterness," I am reminded of the fact that, like most "roots" our bitterness of heart is often "underground" and we usually do not see it, growing deeper and doing it's destructive work.
I surely did not intend to offend by quoting Scripture either. I really enjoy munching on, thinking about Scripture, the Word of God, and and considering what He says on any topic. What does it matter what I think or say on a topic, if what God thinks and says about it is different?
As I'm sure you already know, many people, and likely all of us at some times, have been legalistic in our response to God's Word, God's Teachings also, as well as other people's teachings. People also seem to mean very different things by the term "legalism"...
I found it very difficult (but fascinating and very encouraging) to try to figure out and to comprehend accurately what God's excellent plan and purpose was/is for His law. It seems crucial to study closely what He says about the law.
False teachings abound. Even in people's reactions to what they believe to be false teachings, without studying the topic themselves, they teach their own false teachings. It is very easy to "lean on our own understandings" and come to our own conclusions on this, (or any) topic. Conclusions and teachings which are just as false as those we argue and react against. Or, we just swallow someone else's false teachings...
As I'm guessing you already know, ALL of God's instructions to us on the topic of His Law, E.g. Galatians, Romans 7, 8, and 6, and what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-48, etc. are SO VERY fascinating to study closely, and very important for us to comprehend accurately!
I'm SO thankful that we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, and to bring to our remembrance the things that Jesus taught us! My problems have often come from the fact that I too often listened more to myself, or to what other people say, on any given matter, or topic, than to what Jesus says, to what God's Word says to us. I've too often failed to ask, and to listen for the Holy Spirit's promptings and reminders to me, being led by Him...
Thank you again, for your helpful, honest response! :)
Thanks for explaining, May God's peace be with you. If you detect bitterness or anger in different posts, you have to realize that one of the first steps in healing is expressing that, not hiding it or stuffing it down in the false idea that one isn't suppose to be angry or bitter. I think one of the best examples is Joseph and his brothers. When his brothers first came to Joseph in Egypt, he didn't first reveal himself to them and in fact the past hurt and betrayal did bubble out. He threw a couple of them in jail, he treated them roughly. Joseph just didn't tell "hey nice to see you all, the past is all forgotten" I think Joseph was dealing with the hurt from the past. That is ok because until anger and bitterness is express and talked about can then one start the healing and forgiveness process. Forgiveness and healing is a process, it is done in steps. it shouldn't be done in one big swoop and swept under the carpet. Sometimes, that may take a while for some people. God is patient with us, we need that also with each other.
I don't wish to be unmerciful, but I don't think you have responded to our challenges at all. You have not clarified whether or not the critique of Gothard here is fair and accurate or unfair and false. You deny any hurtful intentions toward victims, but you do not acknowledge that BG or ATI/IBLP have injured anyone. In fact, you have justified BG's intentions, without addressing the accusations of false teaching. I can only conclude that you believe Gothard's teaching is true and Biblical, and that you believe we are propagating evil doctrine.
Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay. Don't try to regulate the participants' conduct here with a hidden partisan motive. (Believe it or not, we actually admonish one another when things cross the line here, and we do encourage mercy.) Be open and honest in your disagreement, do not simply disparage those with whom you disagree. It is a dishonest way to disagree. If you believe Gothard is correct, defend him or leave us to foolishness. If you need to participate, be transparent about your motives and convictions.
"Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay." Yes, that is well said.
Elaine, thanks for taking the time and showing the courage to interact here. Please add to that and take Don's words to heart. Those of us who were in Gothardism know the lingo and we quickly pick up on the hidden meanings. Once bitten twice shy, and many us were bitten but good!
Hey Don,
Your last comments to Elaine leave me almost speechless.
They sound, to me, more like you're interrogating and admonishing a witness in court than having a friendly exchange with another believer.
I don't enjoy being involved in an adversarial discussions, as you might realize by now, and was told, in effect, that I'm too sensitive, but aren't you being just a bit rough toward Elaine who seemed to be just providing her point of view through Scripture she says speaks to her?
I'm pasting your recent comments below so you'll know to what I'm referring:
"Don Rubottom October 3, 2014
I don't wish to be unmerciful, but I don't think you have responded to our challenges at all. You have not clarified whether or not the critique of Gothard here is fair and accurate or unfair and false. You deny any hurtful intentions toward victims, but you do not acknowledge that BG or ATI/IBLP have injured anyone. In fact, you have justified BG's intentions, without addressing the accusations of false teaching. I can only conclude that you believe Gothard's teaching is true and Biblical, and that you believe we are propagating evil doctrine.
Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay. Don't try to regulate the participants' conduct here with a hidden partisan motive. (Believe it or not, we actually admonish one another when things cross the line here, and we do encourage mercy.) Be open and honest in your disagreement, do not simply disparage those with whom you disagree. It is a dishonest way to disagree. If you believe Gothard is correct, defend him or leave us to foolishness. If you need to participate, be transparent about your motives and convictions."
The last two statements sound, to me, almost like qualified ultimatums. I don't believe it's wise to speak to Elaine with such authoritarian tones, but it might just be an accidental difference between male and female written dialogue. You usually seem so pleasant, polite and supportive with your comments.
Mary Olive quoted Don' "Be open and honest in your disagreement, do not simply disparage those with whom you disagree. It is a dishonest way to disagree. If you believe Gothard is correct, defend him or leave us to foolishness. If you need to participate, be transparent about your motives and convictions."
And commented, "The last two statements sound, to me, almost like qualified ultimatums."
I find that interesting as I saw his comments as establishing boundaries for civil discourse. Often times when a woman has experienced a heavy handed patriarchal leader they fall into passive/aggressive speak. They become afraid to speak up in a straight forward manner. Their message becomes muddled to those who are more straight forward. It can be difficult for both parties.
Sometimes I step away from reading here for a couple of days because it is easy to start reading other's words with an intonation they didn't intend thus misunderstanding their message.
Mary Olive, if you read his words with a softer intonation do they sound as harsh as when you first read them?
Don has commented on my posts with boundaries he thought I needed to consider. I saw it in light of who he has represented himself to be as a whole. A man that loves Jesus and others.
MaryOlive, I tend to agree with Nancy2's take on Don's comment. Elaine is appearing to have a difficult time here, and I'm not sure how she's feeling, but she has expressed a sense of Christian community within the ATI movement. I know of good people who also happen to be ATI families. I know of young men who have been through the ALERT training. It must be very hard, when you see such negative things here about something you've been involved in and not seen the dark side of, to try to sort out what is happening. Hence, some of Elaine's comments came across to me, anyway, as kind of like trying to nail jello to a wall. I don't mean to be disparaging by that, but Don was asking for clarification and specificity, and I did not see his comments as too strong at all.
Bill Gothard does teach many good things, and this is a point of confusion for many who just don't buy into his whole system. For example, the principle of design, and "putting a stake in the ground" for salvation at the Basic Seminar, are good teachings emphasizing that God is in control and that the believer is secure in Christ.
However, when you compare Gothard's use of Scripture to many points he makes, you find he is just, as someone put it a long time ago, Scotch taping Scripture onto points of his own making, trying to make them sound biblical. His teaching on rock music comes to mind here, but there are a boatload of other misuses of Scripture.
In addition, one woman who was at the Indy TC told me Gothard had weird, judgmental views all his own - such as telling the young ladies that the only women he knew who rode horses had a problem with rebellion. Stuff like that, that just tends to creep you out when you think about it.
Then, there is the sexual harassment, or whatever term you want to put on it, for Bill's very wrong treatment of the scores of women who are now coming forward.
All these things are hard to process through if you've only had a good experience in ATI. But I agree with Don's asking for clarification from Elaine. I, too, would like to know what teachings she finds biblical and good from IBLP, and I would like to know what she finds so objectionable on this site as well, and why. So if Elaine is willing to discuss, I would like to hear some specifics as well, and some clarification.
I'm reading with interest some of the exchanges here - do not have the energy to read all of them.
Elaine - please keep sharing your thoughts. Right now, I don't feel bitter, just very tired and ready for bed.
There is one thing (sorry if someone has already brought it up), and that is living by principles did not help Gothard to live a pure life, with conduct that is above reproach. Which is prompting me to springboard into some rambling thoughts about the main entry.
Bill Gothard and the rest of us human beings cannot insulate ourselves from the sinful world in a community of principle following people, because the world is inside us in the form of our flesh. And making endless lists of procedures can't help that. We don't live by obedience to principles, we live by faith. Faith in the following . . .
The best and only principle I know of is to consider Christ, and to be sure we are in Him, because this principle is a forensic one - that we are declared righteous - that we have a position in Christ, who did all things perfectly for us. This means we rest from our works, and that there are good works to do - IN CHRIST, who prepared them. His yoke is a yoke of rest for those who are heavy laden and burdened.
The children of Israel could not live by that law, either. Their collective sin is proof of that. No one can live by law, or ANY principle lesser than Christ's work on our behalf. We CAN live on account of His declaration about us. That is why it's really the only principle, because it is WHAT GOD DOES, not what we do. We cannot, should not, try to live by the Mosaic law code. None of it. The New Testament is just that - our Law book. But the NT says it is the Spirit, as we walk in Him, that brings about a life pleasing to God, not a list of principles.
Acts 15, the pastoral epistles, and Hebrews flesh all this out. In Acts 15, the Jewish believers said the Mosaic law was a yoke that neither they nor their fathers could bear, and they would NOT put the Gentiles under it. It has been said that Gothard never deals with this passage, btw.
Maybe I shouldn't call our position in Christ a principle, though. It needs to sound relational, organic, and personal, as the Bible teaches. Kind of like Psalm 23 and John chapter 10. We are sheep, and God is our Shepherd. It would be senseless to give a sheep, so prone to self-destruct, a list of rules to live by. Rather a sheep needs a close relationship and watch care of a loving Shepherd.
And I probably shouldn't post when I'm tired, but the word "principle" got me thinking again about all the anguish and study over the years its taken for me to finally understand what grace is, and I pray that for those involved in this forum tonight. Good night, and may God bless the readers and those who participate here.
Lynn, this is one of the best posts ever. Pure, simple, wonderful.
Wow! There is a whole lot here that I could, and would love to respond to, but I am not sure that I should, for a number of sobering reasons.
Some day we will all be VERY surprised to see how many things were NOT at all as they SEEMED to be, to us. :) The motives of all of our hearts will some day be revealed, even though effectively hidden here on earth.
Communication is also a very delicate art and complicated science, and it is especially so, on difficult, sensitive subjects. What I was trying to say, and what you assume I was trying to say; what you were trying to say, and what I assume you were trying to say, are often extremely different. :)
Did I really "justify Mr. Gothard's intentions" by being honest with you about what I thought he was trying to say or do? One person often hears a VERY different message from what another person thinks he heard, even having heard the exact same thing said or taught. I am unaware of having any "hidden meanings," or of "trying to regulate the participants' conduct here with a hidden partisan motive," Etc. And, I do not "need to participate."
I was in ATI, as a parent, for many years.
Not for the last 15 years, approximately(?)
I SO wish there was time and space to share with you, some of my experiences while in ATI, and since then! Perhaps I will some day? :)
It never went through my mind to try to defend any teachings that are not accurate, or true to God's Word. Finding the truth of any matter or topic, seems VERY important to me. I enjoy trying to do so ... well, sometimes. :)
Honestly, what I thought I heard taught in ATI, was VERY different from what I've read about here, though I do remember most, if not all of the topics mentioned here. I did not hear, or interpret Mr. Gothard's teachings as dictatorial, authoritarian commands that we HAD to or MUST do, or even that we HAD to agree with, only as a man sharing what he understood to be the truth. As with any person's teachings, I did not agree with everything I heard Mr. Gothard teach. I also know that I did hear some very important, and Biblical truths taught.
At the ATI conferences, I heard different people sharing from their experiences, what they thought was true from God's Word, and what they thought would be helpful ideas, or insights for us to consider, pray about, then do if it seemed right to us. They seemed to be honestly trying to help us, and encourage us to believe that we could do, what seemed to us an overwhelming, impossible task. That of training up our own children, and seeking to make God's Word our most important "text" book.
I heard limited, fallible people, courageously sharing their understandings and perspectives on different topics, and giving us ideas that seemed important to them, or that they had found helpful, and that they hoped we would find helpful as well, etc. I never got the impression that we were not totally free to pick and choose what information we wanted to use, teach or do with our family...
Elaine, you said "I also know that I did hear some very important, and Biblical truths taught."
RG has been very specific in their articles as to the Biblical *untruths*. Could you be specific as to what Biblical *truths* you heard from Bill Gothard? If you heard them from a speaker other than BG, can you be specific as to who the speaker was and in what setting you heard it (Basic or Advanced Seminar, ATIA conference, etc.)? I would find that helpful.
Elaine,
Thank you for sharing with us your experience. I'd like to respond to a few things, but I'm on the way out the door at the moment. Although I am sure there are some differing perspectives than yours that you will find here, I am very glad that you are here and that you are participating in the discussion. If people disagree, they will tell you so here- and when discussing God's Word, there will always be some disagreements. I know that you like to look at God's Word and "munch" on it, as you say (I like that term :) ). I hope you continue to participate, even if others express having had a different experience than yours while in ATI/ IBLP.
I recently had this sort of conversation with my own parents. There is a difference when an adult with a mature world view and a good understanding hears these things and when a child does.
I was 12 when I went to my first seminar. I believed all those suggestions. Gothard would say things like, "God's plan for the Israelites in not giving them manna on the Sabbath was that they fast once a week." My parents didn't start fasting once a week. I did. I heard that to say that it was "God's Design" and we all knew you were supposed to follow God's design.
I heard about the importance of abstaining for 14 days every month in marriage. This was to have a super duper marriage and all the benefits in this hidden blessing of the Law. My parents never told me they thought it was crazy. I was building my world view around things that my parents weren't even listening to. But I thought they were. We heard it at the same seminar and they didn't tell me otherwise.
In my experience, that is often the case with ATI parents and students. Parents felt more freedom to reject teachings than students did. And, for what it's worth, students heard a lot of things that parents didn't (if they ever went to any apprenticeship sessions or opportunities.)
that goes along with what I've stated in previous posts. Bill's taget audience was inexperienced young (teen to the 20's). While your parents wisely picked and chose what they wanted to follow, you (and like too many others) didn't have that filter of either life's practical experience or Biblical know how.
Very well said, Ileata, both your article and comment eloquently state one of my major problems with Gothard's teaching; I also agree with your description of the difference between an adult and a child's experience with Gothard's teaching.
My indoctrination (in addition to being raised in an ATI family) was accelerated via Children's Institutes (advertised as the Basic seminar on a child's level) when I was less than 10; this was replaced by the Basic and Advanced seminars once I was of age (12, I think). Since I had no other point of reference, I also thought BG's reading of Scripture was the 'correct' one (i.e. exactly what God meant).
Unlike you, I wasn't self-controlled enough to fast regularly, but I did occasionally feel guilty for not doing so. In fact, when I struggled with habitual sin, one of my parents even suggested my continual defeat was due to my lack of fasting. IIRC, the Biblical 'evidence' given for this reasoning was Isaiah 58:6 (KJV, of course):
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Ironically, that verse (read in context) seems to be God complaining about Israel going through the motions (of fasting) without really seeking Him, i.e. God's complaining about Israel believing in the (magical?) intrinsically curative properties of fasting!
Thankfully, I now realize (like you) that it's not my fasting or adherence to any 'principle', but solely God's unmerited favor (grace) and Christ's work on my behalf that frees me from the power of sin (and the burden of keeping all those principles). That freedom is wonderful indeed!
Elaine, thank you for your testimony. Yes, we are all witnesses of differing experiences and yours ought to be very welcome here. However, your admonition about bitterness was received by many as an accusation, without specification or other explanation. As such it was received as condemning.
When you said: "It did seem to me, that meditating on God's perspectives (on EVERY topic), then "walking in the truths" of His Word, was what Mr. Gothard was trying to encourage us to do." You did justify, or shared your internal justification of Mr. Gothard's intentions. I don't condemn you for your understanding, given your explanation of how you received the teaching, but you did not indicate any appreciation that very many have received the teaching very differently and that very many were damaged by the teaching. Very many were also damaged by the teacher's conduct as an employer, mentor, counselor, advisor and leader.
What has been most eye-opening and disconcerting for me has been the testimony of the defensiveness, hiding and covering up of sin, and accusations against critics, as well as abuse of minors (sexual and otherwise), that have gone on for over 30 years in ITBYC/IBLP/ATI. It is that organization that I believe defrauded both you and I through ATI. What we saw on stage was a carefully scripted caricature of a wished for world of formulaic "success". Many of us have unpacked the formulas and concluded that they are NOT Biblical principles but principles of this world. Viewed in this light, good intentions, sincerity of presenters and good feelings do not justify false teaching.
The refutation of Gothardism is right there in verse 2 of our beloved Psalm 127:
"It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep."
I attended 4 or 5 family conferences in Knoxville over about 10 years. I never saw one family there at rest. All were running, most stressed to the max. It was vain.
I apologize for insensitivity to the possibility that you may be having difficulty considering the stories here. If in fact you are confused or having inner turmoil harmonizing your experience in ATI with the strong criticism here, I understand. I have dear friends who cannot even consider these things due to the confusion it may bring to their peace.
Please understand, however, that you did not express any trouble but seemed to enter in with a straight forward admonishment. It might have felt safe, but it was truly an avoidance of the issues that have brought us together. It sounded to me like: "get that log out of your eye before you work on Mr. Gothard's speck." I think most of us recognize that we all have logs, even Mr. Gothard. What is unfortunate is that his log has battered down many, whether you are able to accept that or not.
Thank you for considering my responses to your postings. Because I have offended, I will refrain from responding in the future, deferring to the brothers and sisters here who are much more sensitive and encouraging. I pray that we will not all remain in full darkness until we see Him. I pray that we all, with unveiled faces, will all reflect the Lord, evidencing ever increasing glory which comes from the Spirit who is the Lord. And so much so that bitterness will not even be named among us.
"As with any person's teachings, I did not agree with everything I heard Mr. Gothard teach."
I AGREE with you wholeheartedly about not accepting every point a teacher of religion presents BUT some folks took to it to heart when BG stated that what he taught were "non-optional" principles of God, meaning if it was non-optional you had no choice but to follow those rules or you were disobeying God himself.
Just because some posts may seem angry or seem to have anger in them, that does not make that person an angry or bitter person. No one here can judge that about anyone here based on a few posts over the internet. When I attended the sheparding church long ago, one of the dearest woman in the world, a wonderful Christian seem to bring that up all the time, detecting "bitterness" in others. It was something that I began to think about myself, that I had "bitterness" in myself. The reality is it wasn't true. It is just an easy pick off from Bill. It's judging others unfairly. Just because someone may be angry about something that happen, doesn't make that person "bitter" or angry in their core. The "I detect bitterness in you" accusation shuts down the conversation and covers up and excusses wrong doing.
A few questions, (because I really want to learn all that I can about how to "speak the truth in love," even on difficult, difference-of-perspective, sensitive, important, complicated topics - like this one.)
Would you help me understand more clearly what you mean by, "Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay"? Do you mean, say what you mean, and mean what you say? If so, what makes it sound as though I do not mean what I said? Having had many conversations throughout the decades, and having read many articles on this topic, I realize that there is FAR more than "meets the eye" (or mind?) involved, that could be discussed and discovered.
And, what are some examples of "the hidden meanings" you mentioned?
I do not want to "disagree in a dishonest way." I did not even even think of what was on my mind as a disagreement, (which does not mean that it wasn't). Would you help me understand how I "disparaged those with whom I disagree"?
I am unaware of trying to do this, but would you be willing to explain more of what you mean by, "Don't try to regulate the participants' conduct here with a hidden partisan motive," and how you see this in my input?
I believe that "truth in love" is a big, big deal. So important.
Elaine, for what its worth from this one commenter, I'll note a couple comments here from my impressions.
I appreciate your courage in asking. I know it's not easy being the odd man out, so to speak. I've been there and I know it it can be scary to post and wonder if people are going to club you like a baby seal, to borrow the expression.
For the sake of trying to explain, this comment is long. My apologies. I will describe a couple examples, giving my perspective (fully realizing it's just one perspective). Your comments have given me cause to stop and think about how and why I was reacting to them, and this is some of the result of that thinking.
First, someone asked you: "Where is the love and compassion for those who have been done harm?"
You answered (in effect) that you do have compassion for people, your words were "I care VERY DEEPLY, and continually," yet, you modified that to clarify what you have compassion for: "about the many ways in which people are being destructively hurt and damaged by sin, false teachings, misrepresentations of Jesus Christ, etc. " (The question was about compassion for those harmed by Bill, a subject you seem to avoid entirely)
The implied message seems to me: "I have compassion on the people being harmed by the distorted message being propagated by many places including this site (RG), and I think all the claims of harm from Bill are lies being repeated by bitter people." (of course you would never say it so strongly - but is that not close to the actual underlying belief that is poking through?)
One other example, I replied to some of the verses you posted. To me, it seemed you were intending to imply that this site was in the wrong to speak against Bill. My reply to those was a lengthy passage of Jesus decrying hypocrisy. And your response to that was interesting, "Wouldn't is be SO thrilling to be involved in, and to become serious about humbly receiving and heeding every word of God, including that VERY sobering, important passage that you shared, SO that God's Kingdom would COME and His will would be DONE in EACH one of OUR lives, just as it is in Heaven?"
Forgive my being so blunt, but to me that sounds like a sales pitch straight from Bill himself. Why the response about "SO thrilling" and "become serious about humbly receiving" and "EACH one of OUR lives"? I don't see Jesus talking about "so thrilling" and "let's all do this in our own lives" in that passage. It is a clear and direct statement against the hypocrisy of the leaders. To turn that into "let's all be humble and serious and see thrilling results" is to blunt the point and redirect it away from consideration of Bill.
I see it as a necessary conclusion from the evidence presented at this site that Bill is guilty of hypocrisy and dishonesty. In my mind, if you want to push back against that conclusion, I would see the two strongest points of engagement as being to either discredit the evidence or else present your own interpretation of it that would clear Bill's name.
Finally, have you noticed in your comments that you are OK with attributing good things to Bill, but no challenges to him or acknowledgment of wrongs done by him? For example, you pretended to agree with my statement that "God does not intend his Word to be used as a mask for hiding hypocrisy and enabling abuse" but with the clarification that the passage "has been too often ignored, and we've reaped what we sowed by doing that also..." (turning it into We have done this, We have done that)
It's a quick shift away from the question of Bill's hypocrisy to a generic statement that almost nobody can disagree with. Yes, we have all reaped what we have sown. But that's not the issue of concern here. The issue of concern is that we (people around this site and the related sites) have all reaped what BILL has sown. Bill is reaping what Bill has sown.
To wrap this up, I would say it is neither loving nor honest (truth in love) to accuse people here of bitterness and dishonesty if they are not guilty of those things, nor is it loving and honest toward Bill to cover up his wrong choices.
Elaine, I hope you read these comments made by Matthew. It appears you think this kind of public discussion is wrong. If you read on this site, you will eventually find years old e mail exchanges between Tony Guhr (who was publicly libeled and slandered by Bill, but for years took the consequences of the lies Bill spread about him in that "agent of Satan" letter) and Gary Smalley. When and if you read those exchanges, now made public, you will find these men are NOT trying to "get even" with Gothard for what he did to them. Nor is the tone of their e mails "bitter." Tony, fully aware of Bill's improprieties, was doing his level best to protect a 14 year old girl from coming into Bill"s orbit, by being honest with this gir'ls family. Gary, meanwhile, was trying to figure out how to answer Bill. Bill asked Gary to take down the sex scandal info off of Wikipedia or some place, and Gary had to remind Bill that it was Gary himself who caught Bill alone in his private quarters, alone except for a young woman in a nighty who was sitting on his lap.
I believe those e mail exchanges took place in 2007. Elaine, I have read through the testimonies of these women who have come forward, and you will find that there have been attempts to hold Bill accountable, but it has not been effective in stopping his sick, abusive behavior. This site has accomplished that. It seems to me there are many people "in here" who wish it did not have to come to that. For the record, Bill admitted the accusation of the footsie behavior was true. He has resigned. I think at this late date, to come here and accuse people of wrongdoing, when it is obvious from years old e mails that key people were trying to stop the sexual abuse, that you need to wake up, and express true concern for the many victims of IBLP, as well as join the chorus of those who would like to see Bill truly repent. Yes, it had to come to this to get it to stop. And can you imagine the relief of those who are finally allowed to talk about the inner pain they feel? Did you read the comment from the one raised in ATI, who, being very young, could not sort out the baloney from what was true? I agree with Matthew and Don. You need to put up a detailed defense of the teachings of IBLP. You also need to explain why this public site is wrong, from a Scriptural perspective, after years and years of private confrontations over the teaching and the sexual abuse have not stopped it. As you have been asked, if this site is wrong, then how should things have transpired?
I, for one, am glad that no more young women will be subjected to Bill's degrading, sleazy behavior. I am grieved that it had to come to this for that to happen, but I do not see, from the teachings of the Bible, where what is going on here is anti-Biblical. God will judge all hearts, 'tis true. Yours and mine. It is also Biblical to give warning about wolves, to protect the flock. While some may be doing it from bitterness and spite, while that is wrong, the actions are not. But as I implied, I cannot detect bitterness and spite from Gary Smalley, Tony Guhr, Don Veinot, Ron Henzel, and the women who have been brave enough to speak out so far. But even if they were bitter, talking about the abuse you have experienced is not wrong, especially not wrong after so many long years of private confrontation.
That is such a key point. To say it bluntly: A wish that the abuse were not exposed is in effect a wish that new victims were being currently exploited behind closed doors, out of our sight and mind.
FWIW, in my mind, if someone believes that Bill in fact was wrong and needed to step down, but they also believe that RG and company are wrong in their process or attitudes or what they are saying, the most effective way to help correct that would be to model what they think is a better way to speak to Bill and about Bill regarding those things, and also how to allow the victims their proper voice.
If someone believes that Bill was not wrong, then it almost seems necessary that they believe the evidence on this site is either fabricated or very distorted. Perhaps they have not really read the evidence honestly seeking the truth about it. If they have carefully read the evidence and continue to believe that it is not a worthy case, then there must be reasons why. The stronger those reasons, the better. Bill and his supporters have accused otherwise but I truly believe a lot of people here really do care about what is true and just.
Since you asked these questions before I promised not to respond further, I will give you my answers and allow the others to do much better.
It is as you say, I meant "let your yea be yea..." to mean "say what you mean". Your bitterness scripture seemed to say that Gothard's critics are bitter and need to watch out and recant to avoid guilt. If that is what you meant, it was far too broad a stroke which seemed to address everything said here. If you had given a couple of examples, specified the kind of statements that you thought showed bitterness, an honest and productive dialogue might have ensued. We could not tell what you considered bitter, so we had to assume you were condemning the entire enterprise.
When you say there is far more than meets the eye, you are claiming some special knowledge that prevents me from discoursing with you. If you would tell us, it would all be in the light. Do you mean that Gothard had secretly righteous grounds for what we consider false teaching and sinful behavior? Or do you mean (as I have seen it expressed by others over the past few months) that the RG editors are grinding a secret axe, using plausible criticism of Gothard to bring down a good man with only evil intentions. Unfortunately, when those accusations have been reduced to specified charges (who, what, when and where), they have been left unsubstantiated. If you have proof of such, please do not make me wait until the Last Day, but bring the light, cast out the darkness; please reveal the secrets.
I hope that the above response addresses hidden meanings as well as 'saying what you mean'. I offer them as examples of hidden meanings. If you DO know something to support the following statement, you are keeping that knowledge hidden: "there is FAR more than 'meets the eye' (or mind?) involved, that could be discussed and discovered." So that it not be hidden, please discuss so that I can discover. I want to know the truth.
If you meant to show no disagreement with this website or its supporters, then your admonition to avoid bitterness must have been merely gratuitous. I find that curious. Even if I leapt to wrong conclusions, I did take it as disparaging. IF you didn't disagree with anyone, then obviously you couldn't have disparaged anyone with whom you disagreed. But that is the only logical conclusion if I accept your denial of any disagreement.
I saw (I am now trying to stop judging you) your motives as hostility or strong disagreement with Recovering Grace and its messages. Admonishing people to not be bitter usually accompanies a conviction that bitterness is being exhibited. The common experience in Gothardism and other groups with abusive authority is that an accusation of bitterness is raised against a critic in order to silence the critic, usually with the partisan motive to defend the one criticized. In fact, it is a tactic to change the subject in order to win the argument (or avoid losing). I saw you as defending Gothard/IBLP/ATI's honor as a supporter and advocate (partisan). I saw it as a passive/aggressive, defensive means of putting down those with whom you disagree without offering a direct response to their criticism.
If you were taught well by Gothard you believe that one should not respond to critics. You believe that no one should criticize or question a leader without having demonstrably pure motives and a conscience completely cleansed of all sins, known and unknown, and a willingness to accept the authority's judgment on the matter and quietly obey while trusting God and God alone to take responsibility to correct the leader. Of course, I can never have my conscience cleansed of unknown sins so this method of "appealing to authority" is impossible. Thus, if we have criticized the leader publicly, we MUST be acting rebelliously or bitterly and if you care for our souls you will share the Scripture that might correct us without accusing us because you have not cleansed your conscience completely and so you can't confront us with our sin. And it is WRONG to respond to critics. That is how I saw your statements and motives.
These are my honest answers to your questions. I cannot help you further to understand what I have said, so please do not ask again. Feel free to respond, defend yourself or attempt to clear up any disparity between what you have meant and what we have received from your words. I will not address any such responses. I will leave that to other.
I will also leave it to others to describe to you other debaters here who have used parsing of words as a means of redirecting conversations away from the points under discussion. Again, I thank you for your attentive reading of my statements and I will not respond again to ensure that I do not offend you. Do not be as reluctant. I take no offense from you.
Don,
Thank you for taking the time to respond so graciously those who lob accusations and then try to back pedal and deny they said what they said. My parents are former ATI (though they still hold to much of what BG teaches). So many of my conversations with them have gone along the same lines for many years---they make statements, quote verses, and then when I analyze and question them, they claim they never said such a thing, never meant such a thing, and try to shut down the conversation with the "Big B" word---obviously I must be bitter if have the nerve to question and try to have an analytical conversation. After beating my head against the wall so many times, I finally began to realize that side-stepping, distracting, and blame-shifting are all tactics of those who are set in their beliefs and don't want an honest conversation.
These are tactics that makes the sanest of us start to question our sanity :) I find responding graciously incredibly difficult, and I thought you did a remarkably good job. Please don't stop answering and posting. Just because one side-stepping reader claimed you weren't being kind doesn't make it so. Your standing up for truth and calling flame-throwing what it is is much appreciated!
Amen, amen, amen! It's like nailing jello to the wall, you can't pin anyone down because they side step, distract, back pedal, 'I didn't mean it like that and you know that..'
I confronted my mom about something she did that hurt me very seriously when I was a teenager, caused some lasting damage, and she responded with, 'well I thought it was just a joke', when I know with every fiber of my being that she most certainly was NOT joking when she did/said the things that hurt me so bad. Not only was it NOT a joke, she was telling me certain things to manipulate me, and bring about the results she wanted.. I was often in tears when we had these little 'sessions' from the guilt trips and such.. How she had the audacity to declare, 'it was just a joke', hurt worse than the original hurt.
She still has yet to even say, 'I'm sorry', not even a, 'I'm sorry you were hurt', whether she acknowledged her part or not, no hugs, nothing. Not a smidge of comfort offered for a grown woman bawling her eyes out over the hurts.
God has given me the grace and strength to forgive her, but I have to frequently choose not to think of it, so it won't keep me down. Easier said than done, of course, but I believe I have seen progress.
Hugs to you, 'Megan.' It sounds like you have a difficult relationship with your parents too due to Gothard's influence. It has taken me as an almost 40 mom of three a long, long time to accept that my parents, especially my mother, have chosen to embrace a movement (homeschooling), a man's ideas (Gothard's principles), and molds of whatever they deem conservative enough and love these ideas more than they love me as a person. Funny thing is I am a committed Christian, quite conservative in many ways---just not their type and stripe--,raising my children for the Lord---just not homeschooling, but they feel free to criticize me and my husband as a married couple for decisions we have made prayerfully before God about our family.
Sadly, Gothard's performance basis for relationships has so infected my parents--and countless others I know and have heard of--that it has become impossible for me to have any kind of close relationship with them. Polite enough to see them around holidays is all I'm able to manage now. It is so, so very pitiful that parents who invested so much raw effort into raising kids the way they were told was right now are unable to maintain any kind of civil relationship with adult children, even believing ones.
It makes me fearful for moms like Elaine---unless she will wake up and see the damage Gothard has done to so many families I fear that she will see all her efforts in Christian parenting go down the drain. Most of the large Gothard families I know of in my large metropolitan area have lost most of their adult children, not to more balanced Christianity--"worldliness" to them, but to alcoholism, drug addiction, prison time for armed robbery, countless daughters pregnant out of wedlock, etc.
May God have mercy and heal and restore the broken, not just children, but broken parents too.
I'm just not going to respond to Elaine. Some honestly felt I was too harsh and there are enough women reading here who have suffered under male oppression that I do not wish to be chief interrogator of a female or one using a female identity. Others are more sensitive and tender than I. But I do appreciate the encouragement from you and others. I'm a truth guy and this has all undercut 10 years of my life. It makes me question much more of my life that I cannot even mention. But I will specifically identify teachings I agree with and those with which I disagree and never be ambiguous with "well I found some things to be good".
Don, I agree with Beth. "I find responding graciously incredibly difficult, and I thought you did a remarkably good job. "
"If you were taught well by Gothard you believe that one should not respond to critics. You believe that no one should criticize or question a leader without having demonstrably pure motives and a conscience completely cleansed of all sins, known and unknown, and a willingness to accept the authority's judgment on the matter and quietly obey while trusting God and God alone to take responsibility to correct the leader. Of course, I can never have my conscience cleansed of unknown sins so this method of "appealing to authority" is impossible. Thus, if we have criticized the leader publicly, we MUST be acting rebelliously or bitterly and if you care for our souls you will share the Scripture that might correct us without accusing us because you have not cleansed your conscience completely and so you can't confront us with our sin. And it is WRONG to respond to critics. That is how I saw your statements and motives."
This is exactly what I thought was happening when posted, "Often times when a woman has experienced a heavy handed patriarchal leader they fall into passive/aggressive speak. They become afraid to speak up in a straight forward manner. Their message becomes muddled to those who are more straight forward. It can be difficult for both parties."
Passively offering a verse which give an aggressive back handed slap.
Don, I appreciate your straight forward manner. It shows respect for women. I know too many women who are afraid to voice their heart felt thoughts in a religious setting. They are always walking on eggshells afraid if they come right out and say what they think it will be construed as over stepping their role as a woman. Instead they try and be that happy good example of the woman after God's heart, and end up appearing overly pious in a bad way. It is men like you who will speak straight forward and welcome all others to do the same that is giving women a seat at the table with them. Thank you.
Nancy, your statement about some being afraid to speak is what helped me organize my thoughts about Elaine's postings. But as much as it benefits some to be spoken to directly, there are others who are offended by any disagreement because they perceive it too personally. I do believe women are more sensitive and therefore more vulnerable. I believe some Biblical directives (not serving in leadership, asking husbands at home) are to protect them from having to defend themselves against aggressive men who are not their husbands. But their husbands have no right (and every DISincentive) to be aggressive.
Not serving in leadership and asking husbands at home can allow for a lot more service opportunities than many Christians understand.
I have been a liaison between different groups of men serving on building ministries. There needs to be good communication between Project Manager, Minister and Volunteers. I'm a carpenter and with my minister's approval, and my husband's consent I often work side by side with men, while working as a liaison between groups. I'm not afraid to be straight forward while working in these groups, because those I work with aren't fearing me usurping their authority. They see my authority as an extension of the Project Manager and the Minister. As a woman I have never been put in a role of timidity. Yet I have always valued authority.
I know there are some who are more sensitive and vulnerable, and they perceive things personally, but without a voice challenging them how will they grow? In this very thread you challenged me to see different angles of trustworthy and untrustworthy people. It benefitted me and I grew. Even prompted a few interesting conversations with my husband on our evening walks together. Please do not stop sharing your insights when you see the thoughts I post are incomplete.
As they say "Steel sharpens Steel."
Don, thank you for your wisdom and courage.
I agree with Nancy2. Especially this:
"Don, I appreciate your straight forward manner. It shows respect for women."
And may I gently add, if one can't stand the fallout from their 'scripture bombs' and 'bitterness' grenades, one perhaps should not be posting such things, no matter the claim of unintended consequences. Everyone knows you don't pour acid on open wounds.
and rub salt in the wounds. We are to be salt of the earth but that means we are to be perservative not hurtful. Quoting Bible verses about anger and bitterness as well as gossip and talking is rubbing salt in the wounds. It does not bring help and healing but more hurt and anger.
Don, I appreciate you absolutely staying on point and sticking to the truth. BG has for decades been able to weasel his way around people because of people being in denial and many believing the lies. Too many have been deceived. Straight talk is needed, if not necessarily liked by some. Please don't stop posting. Your heart is in the right place. As mentioned before, Jesus didn't mind calling a spade a spade.
You have made some comments about “God’s way.” What comes to my mind, is the fact that God has said to us that, “All of us like sheep, have gone astray. We have turned each one to his own way.” God has also told us that, "… as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” God's ways of doing things, usually require faith in Him. It's much easier to "lean on my own understanding" and keep on doing things my own way... and reaping the results.
It is all too easy for any of us to turn “God’s ways” of doing anything, into a hard and fast rules, or principles. Even without intending to, we send inaccurate messages to our children, or to people we talk with, or teach... We all need discernment and guidance from the Holy Spirit about when, where and how to apply which instructions from God’s Word, and when and how to “act on” what He's told us, as "doers of the Word."
E.g. “Children obey your parents in all things; for this is well pleasing to the Lord.” And, “We must obey God rather than men.”
Or -
"Let everyone be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger..."
"Speaking the truth in love we are to grow up in all aspects..."
"Exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."
"Judge not, lest you be judged..."
"If your brother sins, go to him, tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens... If he refuses to listen..."
I agree with your second paragraph. Josh McDowell (author of Evidence That Demands A Verdict) cautions that "rules without relationship lead to rebellion." When children feel loved and secure to the point they understand that not being perfect in no way cuts off their relationship - ie - that they know and feel unconditionally loved - THAT is the main thing. Before any rule, there must be a love relationship first. It is a good thing that one of the first songs a little child learns about the Lord is "Jesus Loves Me." It is also instructive that one of the best known and repeated verses is John 3:16. Also Psalm 23.
Dear Elaine, your comment isn't really saying anything in particular other than throwing out a few random Scriptures. I can't tell if you're trying to direct us into whichever direction you believe is Scriptural, or something else. Most specifically regarding the last paragraph of verses you've posted, are you telling the people of Recovering Grace that we are not following these Scriptures, or are you saying something else?
Please don't be afraid to say exactly what you mean, whatever it might be, that is the best way to continue a good, edifying, and instructive conversation here.
If you are saying that RG is not following the Scriptures you posted, (particularly the last 5) I believe I could point you to numerous articles and countless comments on this website that refute that. There will always be some who are sinning in their hearts or attitudes, but I would say that the majority of this site HAS expressed the truth in love, encouraged each other to not be afraid to speak the truth, judged righteous judgments, and gone to our brother about his sins.
It could be that you have not read these articles, for example, there was a young woman named Robin who detailed her account of Bill's inappropriate treatment of her, and she and her parents both went to him to resolve it long before she ever even thought of telling her story to the world, and Bill denied his culpability in the case. There are other stories, dozens of stories where various men and women have gone to Bill over the past 40 years, to ask him to stop this, or do that, reconcile this situation, and never came out with the desired result. Bill would deny, white wash, or turn the situation around and make the other person the bad guy somehow, to deflect the attention off of him. There is plenty of eye witness testimony of various kind to back up the stories.
Please keep reading around, I know how awful it is to consider the possibility that all is not what it seems when it comes to a Christian leader you admire and respect, but if it's all true and as bad as the stories suggest, we have a much bigger problem than a group of people who might be handling a delicate situation poorly.
I JUST now came back to this conversation, and have read a few of your posts, (out of order) :) but have not finished reading all that you posted since I was last here. I just got called away from here, again, so will come back... hopefully soon. Please let me know though, if you would prefer I leave the "conversation," because I surely do not want to cause any kind of trouble. I VERY MUCH appreciate those who have the courage to try to communicate honestly and thoroughly, seeking to discover the truth on a matter, or topic.
I care very much about the fact that much pain and damage DOES come from false teachings and from wrong, unloving ways of responding to those who were hurt, confused, damaged, mislead, offended by anything a person (myself included) says or teaches! And, I am VERY interested in discovering then "walking in the truths" of Jesus, and of God's Word, that show us how to resolve what DOES need to be resolved.
Elaine, I wrote this article. It was super cathartic for me to just write out the teachings all together.
Do you not believe he said these things? Most of them are referenced, though a few were in conferences and I don't know if they are in print anywhere.
Or do you think it's unimportant to say that he said these things?
For me, writing all these things brought relief. As I said in the article, I had had an encounter with an ATI mom. She's the head of a local homeschool group and I homeschool our children. She had sent out an e-mail telling all the women in the homeschool group to check how they were dressed because, in her opinion, people were starting to get immodest on park day.
I have come to realize how much I hate being around ATI mothers. Having been in ATI, I know that we judged pretty much by the list this article refers to. When I'm around an ATI mom, I cringe if my over-tired toddler takes a fit. Or if it's obvious that my 3 year old is still in diapers. I don't want them in my home because it isn't the perfect example of orderliness.
And I don't fear this condemnation just because I judged that way. I've had the comments from ATI moms.
ATI advertises itself as a way of life. It's not meant to be a resource. It's supposed to be all-encompassing.
@Ileata:
"ATI advertises itself as a way of life. It's not meant to be a resource. It's supposed to be all-encompassing."
Yes, Yes, Yes. It has been a struggle for me to convince and explain to my spouse or a therapist how ATI was all-encompassing for my family. People will say to me, "Oh, you didn't have to follow all the teachings. You could have just done some and left the rest." I've been left frustrated trying to explain how it wasn't that simple. Thanks for the statement.
Also, I know you but haven't seen you in well over a decade. I'm not ready to identify, but may contact you someday in the future.
Brumby, when you are ready to make yourself known, I hope you do contact me. I always love to reconnect with old friends.
Oops! I just noticed that quite a number of your posts had not yet been approved for posting, when I posted on the 7th (or I had totally missed seeing them).
Please know that I have not been connected with ATI for over ten years now, and when I first posted, it was with no thought of trying to defend, or excuse anything that Mr. Gothard has done, or taught that was wrong. I do not know him personally, so could not defend him. In the past I sought to hear both sides of the story before believing what I heard. I spoke with some of the people who wrote articles about him back then. But, have not been in communication with in the past ten + years.
Lynn, I appreciate very much, and agree with Josh McDowell's excellent observation about, "Rules without Relationship, leads to Rebellion."
Megan, No, I was not trying to say, that the people of Recovering Grace are not following these verses, when I listed those verses. I simply listed those verses as a small sample of verses, that can be very hard to discern how, when and where to apply them, especially when discussing complicated, difficult, sensitive, and yet VERY important topics, or matters.(I am VERY sorry for the confusion that my poor communicating skills have caused.)
I want each of you to know that I greatly value honest interactions, like this one. I learn a lot from the people who are courageous enough to share honestly, what is on their heart, rather than to stuff it and pretend to be my friend (to my face), but are totally other than that (behind my back). Thank you for your honest responses to me. My failure to respond is not because I am offended. (I just now returned to this post, this communication.)
There really is SO much that could be said, but it is not my desire to rub salt into anyone's wounds. I truly do care a LOT, about anyone being led astray, by any false teachings. And, the fact mentioned a number of times about the difference between the way a child hears anything that is said, or taught, and the way an adult processes it, is a very accurate reality, that I wish all parents and teachers of every kind understood BEFORE hand...
(In regards to being wounded by the realities of life situations, I have also experienced being the person who was seriously falsely accused. It was, and has been an excruciating experience. It is stunning to even begin to glimpse the huge destruction done, by "that great forest fire that IS set aflame with such a small fire - the tongue. I have seriously experienced the devastating damage and destruction that people's untamed tongues DO cause! That is highly motivating, not to do that to other people, and to at least try to encourage others also, to be VERY sure of their facts before spreading things around that are not true, therefore very destructive. (I am NOT saying that I know WHAT is true and what is NOT true in this case.)
Please know also, that I in no way intended to use Scripture as any kind of weapon, or means of causing anyone MORE pain than they have experienced already! I do know the reality of the problem of people using Scripture to prove their OWN point, or even to justify their sin, or to silence someone who DOES need to speak up about the truth of a matter or topic. I know it WELL, and have experienced the serious consequences of it being done to me.
I have come to greatly LOVE God's Word, on every topic, and have found God's Word to be the one solid rock of Truth, when I'm seeking to know who to listen to, and what to believe... and what to do... You've welcomed me to be honest with you, so I will. It was Mr. Gothard who greatly encouraged me, and helped me to recognize the GREAT value(to say the very least), in giving my attention to, and discovering what God thinks and says on any topic, or matter.
Oh my, I do have to run again. Thank you very much for allowing me to communicate with you, honestly, and for doing so with me also! I very much appreciate all of your helpful input and insights! (I am trying to learn to be a much more clear, accurate, precise and concise communicator.) :)
Breaking my promise here: "there is so much to be said" but you refrain from saying it.
"because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand." Ez. 3:20. May it not be so with us.
Well, I thought that I had heard just about all of the wacky medical teachings that I could bear, but the world of Bill Gothard seems to be an endless stream of them. Does anyone still have their Basic Care Bulletin 9 and can they verify that Gothard actually taught that miscarriages are caused by failure to tithe?
Please see reference below that was posted on another message board:
"How robbing God can be related to miscarriages"
BILL GOTHARD
Basic Care Bulletin 9: How to Understand the Causes and the Management of Miscarriages,
"Medical Training Institute of America",
page 13 , Rev. 6/91.
And here it is. It looks like James Sundquist posted a link to the miscarriage and tithing teaching from Basic Care Bulletin 9 over at Shoebat.com
https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1340/765/original.jpg
Yikes!
At first this might appear to be just another one of those boneheaded teachings. However, it was, in fact, part of a very clever marketing strategy.
Gothard relied heavily on pastors to drag their congregations to his conferences. By keeping a strong emphasis on the importance of tithing, it insured that the pastor's efforts would be well rewarded when the collection bags got passed around their churches.
Oh, wow! What is sad is that those of us who believed these things and then lost babies had to struggle through feeling guilty or blaming God for not keeping his end of the bargain if we couldn't find a place we were violating a principle.
When you tell a million people something, it is not surprising that "it works" for some of them and not for others. One great danger of anecdotal teaching is that the teacher can choose to share the positive reports and bury the negative. I used to hear Oral Roberts' wife read two or three prosperity letters on the radio every Sunday morning and wonder about the other thousands who gave and did not receive such blessings. We should pray for all who doubt because they were deceived and did not receive what was promised by the false teacher.
Job 41:11 "Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine."
Job 42:1-6
"Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”
May all false teachers who promise "success" to the unwary see the Creator "by" their eyes despise themselves and repent in dust and ashes.
Kevin, you are right. This teaching, because it was false, and because of its ramifications toward sensitive women who might be struggling in the aftermath of a miscarriage, so infuriated Mike (Metochoi) (of the Yahoo Gothard discussion list) he wrote an article for the Midwest Christian Outreach Journal. I canNOT get my computer to open the pdf, but here is the cached version of the excellent article he wrote: You will find the article on pages 8, 9, 10, and part of 11 midway down: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3ZMeVSTEF30J:www.midwestoutreach.org/Pdf%2520Journals/2004/04spr.pdf+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl
Thanks for the link Lynn! That is an excellent rebuttal by Mike Mahurin. Gothard may have some sort of record for having the most biblical scholars rebut his teachings. I'm not aware of even one respected biblical scholar who says Gothard is correct in his theology.
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І coulԀn't refrain from commenting. Рerfectly written!