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Their Day in Court: Part Three
February 22, 2019 // 110 Comments -
Their Day in Court: Part Two
February 22, 2019 // 0 Comments -
Their Day in Court: Part One
February 22, 2019 // 0 Comments -
Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit a ...
March 28, 2018 // 186 Comments -
Rethinking the Nativity
December 25, 2016 // 144 Comments
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Plaintiffs Amend Lawsuit Against IBLP, Also Sue Bill Go ...
January 10, 2016 // 1311 Comments -
Charlotte's Story
February 5, 2014 // 601 Comments -
Bill’s Cabin: Uncovering Sin
May 21, 2014 // 475 Comments -
How the Teachings of Emotional Purity and Courtship Dam ...
July 22, 2011 // 431 Comments -
Sacred Grooming, Part Six: A Secretary's Account of Lif ...
January 31, 2014 // 405 Comments
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thank-you for the review of your notes, they give ...
April 25, 2020 -
What else did she say? (From my notes) Actual a ...
April 23, 2020 -
I'm not following what "motives" have to do with B ...
April 23, 2020 -
I was aware of the Marcion tenets mentioned: she h ...
April 22, 2020 -
Marcion's heresies is much more than just a "rejec ...
April 20, 2020 -
It is impossible to predict exactly how and when I ...
April 19, 2020 -
They may be borrowing a page or pages from critics ...
April 6, 2020 -
Whether these facts are significant or not: free ...
April 6, 2020 -
Yes, lets hope so. However, this is the lentiest l ...
April 3, 2020 -
Rob, Per your comment about IBLP, I noticed on th ...
April 2, 2020 -
There is a quote from the 11th century that I find ...
March 24, 2020 -
Acts 17:26-27 (ESV) are currently my life verses f ...
March 23, 2020 -
"such material" IBLP material that is.
March 22, 2020 -
I believe that I have been there, making an idol o ...
March 22, 2020 -
"Those that long to see the Kingdom of God come, a ...
March 21, 2020 -
You do realize that the same person that runs DG a ...
March 20, 2020 -
Do they realize the exact problem Bill has is that ...
March 20, 2020 -
wow- those who endorse a certain person as having ...
March 20, 2020
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Bill Gothard’s New Website
Late last night, Bill Gothard’s personal website, billgothard.com, launched a complete redesign with new content. Included in this new content was a statement by Bill Gothard in which he attempts to address some of the issues that we have raised on our site over the past four years. Additionally, there is an entire page dedicated to personal testimonies about Bill.
Shortly after the site was published, it was pulled down and the former version of the website put back in place. However, we can confirm that the content of the new statement was in fact written by Gothard, as we have received copies of it from other sources. While our website has been relatively quiet concerning the activities and “reconciliation attempts” of Bill Gothard in the past year, we hope to shed some light on these things in coming weeks.
One thing that we would like to briefly address is the accusation posted that we “blocked” a story of someone who wished to support Bill Gothard. Our policy from day one has been to never block a dissenting viewpoint unless it is abusive, profane, or consistently unkind. In the case of Helen, her story came in the form of a comment on one of our articles. This comment was approved and remains on our site until this day. It can be viewed here.
The following are the screenshots from the new website. Each image can be clicked on for a full-size version that is easier to read.
HOME PAGE
A NEW STATEMENT BY BILL GOTHARD
PERSONAL TESTIMONIES
Very disturbing. Especially since as recently as April (2015) IBLP's current President, Tim Levendusky, and one of the IBLP board members sat in my living room and told me, my husband, and my parents that Bill had shown ZERO signs of biblical repentance. They encouraged us to not seek to try to talk with him directly for that reason and shared steps that they have been taking to try to connect with people who have been hurt so as to at least listen to our stories and allow us to feel that we have been heard. As with so many other statements he has made, it appears that this statement is more about Bill than anyone else.
We had a similar experience with Tim recently.
Well, that's encouraging, in that I had the impression that the Institute was doubtful that BG was really guilty of anything. What would be REALLY encouraging would be a retraction of the "blame the victim" materials. And not just a quiet disappearance, but a public acknowledgement...but I guess I'm dreaming now.
What's your family's connection with the IBLP president and board membership?
Then at some point they are going to have to publicly state this. I think most people are under the impression that IBLP is in agreement with Bill Gothard on all points, including his denials, and that he simply stepped down due to pressure. I mean, go to the IBLP website. Gothard is everywhere on it.
Of course, I would be dreaming if I actually thought that IBLP would even consider that the TEACHINGS of Gothard are error. But at some point if BG will not renounce his actions over the last 40 years, they are going to have to renounce them. They are going to have to, that is, if they actually care about the Truth.
David, I fear the present IBLP caretakers are a headless chicken. The ones remaining were so submissive that they cannot act decisively on their own, so they merely flail.
Should we doubt that if BG asked for the teachings to be scrutinized by legitimate evangelical theologians that the Board would do it immediately? But they can't do that on their own, so they continue to sell and propagate lies in ignorance.
Of course you are right. But you are, in fact, describing what it means to deal with a CULT. I was never a follower of Gothard, but saw his error from the first seminar I was invited to attend. It was at that point that I discovered that in order to continue in Christian fellowship with some folks, you had to do so through the one mediator between God and man, Bill Gothard.
It's difficult to believe the personal testimonies were unsolicited. I don't want to accuse anyone of lying, but in the very first testimony, at the end of the opening paragraph, it says "Type your paragraph here". It seems this person filled out a form with a section for their biographical info and then their testimony,and they inadvertently left the prompt. I could be wrong, but it seems quite fishy. And that may not be a big deal if you look at the big picture, but if you lie in small things, it's hard for me to believe you about big things.
The "Type your paragraph here" shows up twice at the end of Helen's letter, too.
It could be that Gothard's tech guy simply didn't practice the character quality of "Thoroughness" when proof-reading!
It's also between the Matthew 5 verses and references on the first page. I agree with you, Katherine.
And I agree with you, too, Katie - they do seem fishy.
I said a while back that I thought BG was using an alias here to fish for what people wanted from him. Sadly, he appears to think that this is it - "apologies" for "misunderstandings" and explanations of "misplaced priorities," packaged with a hefty dose of vain damage control.
It's possible that statement was leftover from whatever template they used to put the page together. But I'm with you, your explanation seems very plausible.
The "type your paragraph here" instruction also appears in the Scripture quotation at the beginning of "A New Statement" on the first page. It's a standard "placeholder" phrase used in blog templates. That said, I agree that the testimonials seem solicited. Some of them start with a third-person account/introduction. Unsolicited testimonials should not require this kind of set-up.
I should point out that this is my first comment. I was never part of IBLP/ATI but remember the controversy that swirled around IBYC during the late '70s, and having to deal with some of the repercussions of the teaching in the basic seminar. I discovered the RG site about a month ago and have read deeply. I appreciate the thoughtful discussions and the wealth of material the moderators have made available.
I appreciate your humor. I kept cracking up about the same thing.
Also in the middle of Helen's testimony it also has "Type your paragraph here." It does seem rather odd....
I thought something similar. One day all these people are going to be sorry they stood where they did. We have all probably been in a similar place. It's grevious.
I bet I can find some Mormons who will write such testimonies about Mormonism, and some JW's who will sing the praises of Charles Taze Russell. Not only that, but if testimonies prove anything, what about the thousands that testify to the heresy and damage that the teachings of Bill Gothard have done? The point is, what does Jesus Christ have to say?
His statement seems to show a definite gender bias for "the young ladies". Classic victim-blaming, "the girls came up with those stories because they were jealous of my time and attention. Meanwhile, the young men in my employ struggled with no such jealousy issues." Puh-lease, you are trying to tell me all these beautiful young ladies were fighting over a 60-80 year old man?
(Much coughing and clearing of throat) Narcissist!
Where are the homely young ladies he took an interest in?
I actually have a question not a comment. When I checked out his website it was not all what you have in the screen shot. Can you tell me what's going on with that? I used the link that was provided in this article. Not sure if it was changed again? or what?
Please read the first two paragraphs above.
These are screenshots of what was up last night (I saw it with my own eyes), then they apparently reverted back to the old site.
Someone must have seen the "type your paragraph here" mistakes...
And, for the record, Gothard doesn't make things right with everyone who contacts him.
“My actions of holding of hands, hugs, and touching of feet or hair with young ladies” (April 2014) ≠”I have never. . .touched any young lady in a sensual way.”
Back to motives again. It's not the actions, they are only physical anyway.
"It's not the actions, they are only physical anyway." Is BG getting into gnostic thinking here like only thoughts matter, what the flesh does doesn't matter? And anyway, doesn't Christ say in the Sermon on the Mount that thoughts beget actions? James 1:15 says when lust has conceived it brings forth sin which brings forth death.
Paula, I have heard IBLP teaching compared to so many other false teachings that it became hard to keep my head straight. It does seem to have some parallels with some aspects of Gnosticism, but to keep my sanity, my basic question is to try to figure out why Bill Gothard taught something, and to see if the Scriptures really teach it. I find I learn more that way. Plus, I can't keep so many false teachings in my head, not being a detail sort of person.
On this one teaching, it is fairly clear that Bill bases the idea on Jesus' teaching on don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but after that can do no more, but be afraid of Him who after the body is dead, can cast the soul into hell as well.
This is in relation to God, and it means we are to have FAR more proper fear of God's lordship than we are to fear consequences of anything that man can do to us.
To be very honest with you, I do not see Gothard using this teaching of his to excuse his sin. I think he firmly believes this teaching, and I tend to think he meant it as an encouragement, honestly and truly I do.
Where his teaching goes wrong has been pointed out. The vast majority of sexual abuse bothers the soul a great, great deal, and has next to nothing, if any, physical damage.
Scripturally, where it goes wrong ignores Paul's teaching that all other sins a person commits are outside the body, but sexual abuse (which by definition includes immorality) is to sin against one's own body (and force another person to sin against their body as well - against their will!!!!). In I Cor. 6, Paul warns that our bodies will be raised. In this life, therefore, Paul indicates the body is important, and we are not to commit immorality. Paul goes on to say that sexual intercourse that is immoral (which would include abuse) makes you one in body with the other person. In abuse this is to sin against one's own body and to force another person to sin against his/her body with the perpetrator of abuse, even though the once being forced is not guilty at all. This creates a great confusion of mind.
When Paul says the two are one body, there is obviously something going on with the one flesh concept which transcends the physical body, and involves a soul-ish connection. Therefore, sexual abuse is far more than a physical abuse. You can't chop up a human in that way when it comes to this kind of abuse.
Bill is very wrong to dissect this matter down to body, soul, spirit. Even wrong if just body/soul. It cannot be dissected like this in a person's thinking, hence, for some who are very sensitive emotionally, it becomes a very cruel teaching.
I'm not a counselor, but I think it best for people to be aware, and not deny, what happened to them in cases of abuse like this, and then to work on any kind of cognitive retraining that they can, with a heavy dose of they-are-not-guilty-of-anything thrown in, in order to recover to the point when they can emotionally release the perpetrator and pray for that one's soul as well (speaking of believers here).
". . . Jesus' teaching on don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but after that can do no more, but be afraid of Him who after the body is dead, can cast the soul into hell as well.
This is in relation to God, and it means we are to have FAR more proper fear of God's lordship than we are to fear consequences of anything that man can do to us."
Forgot to add this only teaches that man can do so much in that he can only kill that which God has already foreordained will die anyway - it does not teach that the body is less important than the soul. Truly this body is temporal, and the soul eternal, but God will give us a new body, and will reward us for what we did in the days of our temporal flesh. The human body is a very precious, sacred thing. This life matters. I can't remember the Latin, but "now counts for eternity."
Paula,
"Is BG getting into gnostic thinking here like only thoughts matter"
I would say yes, when it is convenient. IMO one of the things that makes BG such an evil
brilliant genius is his ability to be all over the map, impossible to pin down, impossible to argue with. A narcissistic master manipulator always needs to win, always. From that perspective, it all makes sense.
For example compare "only thoughts matter" with his obsessive emphasis on clothing and appearance. Looking back it seems so absurd that I could listen to BG"s insanity.
Interesting they're all pretty girls that give glowing Billy's a good goat testimonies *snort*
Show me a vivacious, "radiant," curvy, curly blond-haired woman who vouches for him, and I'll at least hear him out.
As Ileata says, Gothard doesn't make things right. Way back in 2012, I contacted him at his own invitation to explain how his teachings offended me. This was before we all learned of his years of sexual harassment, so I was gentler than I would be now.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/01/dear-mr-gothard-one-students-letter/
He contacted me only after RG ran the letter, and his response was absolute nothingness. (He generously gave permission for me to make it public. I didn't do so.)
If it seems a bit much for someone to have to "reconcile" with every one of the students he offended, well, Gothard didn't seem to think so when he was instructing all of us to go back to everybody we ever offended and make it right.
It is simply NOT POSSIBLE to make anything right with anyone unless the Truth is stated. That is what confession means -- telling the Truth about what happened -- in the Greek the word confession means to say the same thing as God says. To simply agree to lie together and make peace is not reconciliation in Christ. It is reconciliation in untruth. And to put the person you hurt on the defensive by quoting scripture is just another form of deception. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ and have everything exposed. That won't be a problem if we have nothing to hide, nothing to protect, and if our faith is solely in Jesus Christ. May God help us all.
Is this in time for the Duggar interview on Fox as well as the new scrutiny over his teaching that now has come about from the Duggar scandal? Me thinks that this is his way to defend his teachings due to the new interest in them.
Rob, I am afraid you are correct. The self-centered pride of these people, and their need for fame and approval (and always money) is just amazing. Somehow, I fear that comebacks are on the way-once the "messy stuff is swept under the carpet and we can just move on." if there was ever a time for the secular media to do its job it is now (since the Church refuses to hold either accountable).
I found the Duggar interview interesting. When asked about the facility Josh was sent to, Jim Bob was very careful what he said and only referred to "a man" he knew and "training center" in Little Rock. He even paused before he said "training center" and even that was deliberate. He mentioned there was a police station and I believe prison ministry on the first floor. They did mentioned mentoring and hard work while he was there. IBLP or Bill Gothard was not mentioned. To me what was omitted was more telling that what was said. Too many details were left out. Megyn asked good questions but not tough ones.
Larne
Yes, agree. I think Megan missed the boat in not pursuing who the "man" was as well as what "treatment" he got.
Larne,
quick question, did you know the woman from the new yet removed web site that claims to be from the time frame you would have been there? It doesn't fit with the testimonies from others from the 1970's.
Rob,
I am going to answer your question by starting a new thread below. It has taken a while to put together and get it coordinated.
Larne
^^^"When I would counsel a young lady I would need to find out what her problems were, but I avoided specific details of her actual wrongdoing."
How thoughtful of you, Bill. Because, you know, you were expressing such tact in taking as much time as it took for the only girl you would see at a time to "become stronger." Even though you say they each in turn demonstrated such weakness in the aftermath of your strengthening of such a one through your exclusivity of relationship with them. Such important methods of operation for a paid counselor. But, especially, that "In my affirming of these young ladies a bond was established." Yes. It is SO affirmative for a minor to have all their problems recognized as stemming from their actual wrongdoing. Such affirmation!
Correcting my own sarcasm: This is NOT affirmation. Rather, it was in "My (Bill's) __________________ of these young ladies a bond was established." And no, Bill, we don't think more of your success at this for your methodology of doing one-at-a-time.
Common practices were always, men counsel men, women counsel women. He grew up in an era where that was gospel.
Kelly, I believe the article stated that the screenshots above were only live for a while and that the website has been put back to the old bill Gothard website.
That sentence about each young person being at hq bc either the parents sent them for counseling or he saw potential.... Ha! He didn't even know who I was. I went to hq because there was a spot to be filled and Woody and Joy asked me to fill it. Mr G had never met me before nor was I sent there (although my mother was elated, sure I would become spiritual. But then accused me of being rebellious and and pregnant the day she picked me up).
Also, he makes the whole thing seem like a huge misunderstanding. And that every young person there was fighting for his attention like he was the father to a bunch of bickering brats.
I remember your face, Brenda. You're still super beautiful and I appreciate your contributions here. Thanks for that! You would never recall me - I was younger and just another grimy kids face in the crowd, but I took in my surroundings with a creep factor of about 10, haha!
Isn't it time for this man to just retire and go away? Why the comeback?
"Why the comeback?"
He's desperate to whitewash his legacy. I believe every attempt for him to do so will backfire, as we just witnessed.
"When I met Helen, I immediately saw in her the qualities that we were looking for." - Bill Gothard
His only information at that point was primarily visual and completely superficial. I'm sure Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus would have been immediately invited to work at HQ at age 15 (if dressed in Navy and White). A pretty face, a winning smile, and effervescent personality should not "immediately" be qualifying factors.
Of course Helen actually is an awesome human being and well deserving of every opportunity. The problem lies with an old man instantly picking young staff based on external qualities.
And how sad and tellingly manipulative of him to wager 7 years of service out of a woman based on her guilt and regrets.
Really weird reference to cell replacement. Does he believe that immorality taints the body but that 7 years of cell replacement removes that taint? He is too weird to believe. (Besides, Leviticus says uncleanness is gone in a week at most!)
I believe another important things to remember is that just because some had positive experiences does not mean that others did not have negative ones. The reason people often get away with heinous behavior is because they have the ability to manipulate the view of them that the majority of people sees. That's manipulation and deception 101. And, in Bill's letter he completely ignores the fact that the documentation of horrible behavior goes back to the very beginning of his ministry. It was not limited to the last 20 years. I spoke with someone in the last 2 years who was part of a group of pastors that reached out to Bill early on in his ministry and attempted to offer Biblical shepherding to address what they perceived as heresies in Bill's teachings. He refused to meet with them in any way. Sigh ... this persistence in his delusional, parallel universe is so very sad (among other things, I know!).
Very well stated here!!
Absolutely!
I see this very often in any discussion of the damaging teachings of Bill Gothard. "I had a very positive experience in ATI, therefore your negative experience is invalid!" (Sometimes it's stated almost that clearly, too!)
Lauren,
Thank you for your post.
We began attending a church where the pastor was an ATI pastor. We had heard rumblings but had no idea what and as we searched the Internet nothing but here say was enough to persuade the pastor, so we joined.
Reading the board minutes that Tony offered up slapped me in the face. We were already out by that time but to see those minutes and the names that were part of it that bg had hidden for so long made me furious. I printed them all. Had we seen them we would have never been part of this.
Deception is evil.
Yes, and you know, "positive experiences," may actually be damaging ones, if they lead us away from Christ. The only positive experience in the eyes of God are ones that keep us in the Truth and which build up in us the measure of Jesus Christ. I know many people who are absolutely deceived, but happy, because they don't know the Truth they cannot see. There are Mormons and JW's who are happy in their deception. Again, religious flesh can be very please with legalism -- evidently the Galatians were quite happy -- but Paul told them they were under, "another gospel." The most deceived people are happy ones.
"When I would counsel a young lady I would need to find out what her problems were, but I avoided specific details of her actual wrongdoing."
There is the same thing Recovering Grace showed in IBLP literature: A "young lady" who have problems is automatically thought of as if SHE did wrong. Life is not that simple. Some of our problems comes from inabilities that have nothing to do with wrongdoing. (For example, an autistic have communication problems, without anyone doing wrong.)Some have to do with the wrongdoing of others. (For example, if someone steals your food money for the week, you have a problem without having done wrong.)Some has to do with human errors that are not sin, others with sin.
His counsel would not be affirming, but blaming.
Retha, Good catch. The blaming thing keeps showing up. It is subtle, but BG can not seem to help himself. It has "worked" for years for him. Not so much now though.
Retha: whatever happened with women counseling women? As a pastor I would never even think of counseling a young woman, or a married woman. I cannot understand her heart or perspective. BG counseled hundreds of young, vulnerable women. Not only is this unbiblical (Titus 2:2-4) but toying with disaster--as we have now seen over these past few years. Sometimes I wonder: Just who does BG think he is? is pride and ego are just amazing.
The only 2 relevant things I've deducted from the aforementioned screenshots is 1, his "type" is not adequately represented in the clearly solicited testimonial section, and secondly, what really bothers me is that it was not ready for publishing and said "type your paragraph here" a lot. Well, here's my paragraph.
One of these girls has already contacted him after finding out about this and told him not to use her name or what she wrote for anything in the future.
Good reason to take down the site...
I am wondering if BG put the new website up for just a short while to see if RG saw it and what would be said about it. And if he did, I am sure he is not disappointed!
--orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-
perhaps the new powers of ATI and IBLP had some say in the matter!
Interesting. Very interesting.
Just a little levity in the midst -- Steve, when I saw your disclaimer of who you are not, I burst out laughing. Good call.
I also like the little theological error, not that Jesus makes all things new, but that 7 years of service to BG, does. What a crock!
I'm sorry that you, too, were deceived by him, Ginger. You were a beautiful person and you deserved better. Even I have to admit, that was a pretty smooth line.
Ginger's testimony = After 7 years her parents asked her to take care of an aged grandparent.She didn't want to leave but she knew it was right to obey her parents, even at the age of 32... she met a godly, handsome, single chaplain... God has given them seven children - one for each year that she served the Lord." [ahem - should be "served BG!"]
Gag! I hate to say this, but this is written just like the Gothard materials which drew me in - I felt I needed to immerse myself in these teachings or I might miss out on obeying one of God's principals, such as Ginger doing what she didn't want to do - obeying her parents at 32yo, and I would thus miss out on God's plans & blessings for my life & my children!
This testimony is so neatly packaged in the number 7!
You obey your parents (even at 32), and God will bless you. (7 children for 7 years of service). What about precious ministers serving God who suffer with infertility? We cannot earn Gods blessings. He lavishly blesses us who are so undeserving. This teaching is just wrong. Plus, what would be our true motive in obeying? Wouldn't it be to receive instead of obeying out of love?
Did anyone else notice how Helen's letter, although addressed 'To Whom It May Concern' and written from a first person perspective, switches suddenly in one paragraph to speaking to BG in the second person, and then switches back to first person? Also the last paragraph of Joanne's letter does not match the first part in tone or style. It is as if they have been cobbled together from different messages.
A lot of reference letters are written by the one seeking them, as a first draft for convenience, then revised by the signer, leaving the styles of both writers intact. This is the most likely scenario: Bill wrote drafts for carefully selected witnesses, they revised them, signed and returned them. These may have been solicited for the secretive "investigation" and may not have been offered for publication. I hope these ladies realize that with the Duggar case bringing Bill's sexual misconduct back into the limelight, they may be sought out by CNN and other unfriendlies to explain what a wonderful, loving, affirming man B.G. the creep was to you and to ask you what you think of his perversions. A true friend would not subject you to such scrutiny, but cherish your endorsement privately.
That scenario, if true, would negate the introductory claim that these testimonials were unsolicited. Helen's, in particular, is claimed on the home page screenshot to have been her own voluntary story, which she sent, it is implied, to RG for publication and was supposedly "blocked". The claims do not add up.
By the way, BG has used the 'my-workers-were-jealous-of-the-favour-I-showed-the-best' line before. I remember reading his new promotion of the concept of Biblical Jealousy (anyone else remember that) and I still remember his anecdote to prove it. It went something like this (paraphrased):
BG was in his office one day, working with a female helper. A young man came in to help BG with some business, and the female helper left. The young man appeared troubled and said to BG, "Your eyes light up as you look at her." BG goes on to say that he then understood how God could be jealous.
Remembering that illustration in the light of recent revelations, I venture to say that young man was troubled by something other than jealousy.
Yes, and any decent leader of such an organization would have regularly used male assistants, who were plenty, for obvious reasons. (Shouldn't all those girls been left at home to hone their domestic skills instead of giving cause for lust?)
Also, now the staff's perception of BG's favoritism is a negative attribute; while when Biblical Jealousy was being promoted it was a positive attribute.
Sue, you are most correct! This may be the most troubling aspect of BG's entire ministry--his one on one meetings with beautiful women. I am sorry, but no man can handle this type of temptation, not even the mighty BG.
Did you notice the sentence right after Helen's signature:
"Type your paragraph here."
Did Bill's staff draft the entirety of the testimonies? Were these provided upon request? With thousands of young people directly impacted by this man, does he think a few good reports will cancel a number of bad reports? Did he or did he not have unreasonable expectations of others? If so, why doesn't he say so directly? Why did he teach us that expectations destroy relationships but then impose such expectations on staff?
Where are the admissions of specific misdeeds? Why all the passive language? Where are the testimonies of people who observed his relationships with "wronged" girls who can affirm that he really did nothing untoward? NOT EVEN ONE SUCH EXCULPATORY STATEMENT.
Fifteen months on, and he cannot acknowledge the truth of any allegations or any actual faults. Worse, he allows Linda to tacitly admit immorality with his brother but defend Bill's honor even though the Board clearly determined that Bill knew and did not act to protect them. Pitiful. She is admittedly gullible.
Sincerity would invite all the girls (pro and con) to get together and file an agreed report on his conduct. Setting these few against the accusers is like hiding behind his sister and mother. HE CLEARLY DISCUSSED MARRIAGE WITH RUTH AND WITH MEG BUT ACTS AS IF ALL HE EVER DID WAS COUNSEL AND LOVE WELL. Repent while there is time.
After thinking about it, I'm even more creeped out by: "To whom it may concern, I fornicated with his brother but he was righteously indignant about it and as shocked as the other girls!"
To even go to one of Steve's victims for a testimonial 35 years later is re-victimizing her, even if she seeks some exoneration by "helping out".
My skimming of the screen shots did not allow for me to note this interesting nuance. How desperate to be seeking recommendation letters from his brother's victims. REALLY?!?!?! I noticed she mentioned "us girls" or something to that effect, but I did not deem it possible that it was meant to mean that she was also one of the victims. I underestimated the amount of crazy here.
I'm having a hard time reading the testimonials because it is so tiny, and on Linda's it looks like something is covered up. The last paragraph says "I...aware of the misconduct that was secretly going on." I assume she's saying that Bill was unaware of it? Can anyone else read that?
It's obscured, but enlarged, appears:
"I can say definitely that Bill Gothard was not aware of the misconduct ..."
Thank you!
I apologize that I was too busy being spiritual to build a relationship with my staff.
That's not an apology; that's a personal pat on the back and a lash out at those who were too unspiritual to understand that.
Yep, that's exactly how it came across to me, too.
I read through these few testimonials. Sorry, this cannot in any way make up for the dozens of devastating testimonials that have been cited on this web site so far. There is still no repentance, no sorrow, no restitution in any way. Sad. It will be interesting how this all plays out with the Dugger interview tonight. It would not surprise me if JB and BG are intertwined in their potential comebacks. The "just sweep it under the carpet" attitude of both are devastating to true Christian faith. I hope that both are exposed and held to the Biblical standard for "elders." I am really rethinking this postmodern phenomenon of celebrity Christians. The harm they do to the body of Christ is so tragic.
Amen.
Predators like BG pick and choose their victims carefully. So he didn't act predatory with some. That doesnt mean he didn't with others. It's obvious he did with others. Paedophiles have consistent grooming techniques. When reading the accounts of those who were his victims, his patterns are clear. As a counsellor, I have had the unfortunate experience of talking with such men and women. According to them, the children wanted their attention. GOTHaRD DOES THE SAME THING BY SAYING HE MADe OTHERS JEALOUS by not giving them "attention". SICKENING!
Michelle, I think you are exactly right. Gothard would walk up to the line, but never cross it himself. Apparently dozens of girls had enough character to stop at the line. Vast majorities of girls didn't even get close to the line... they probably were left alone. Then there were the ones that had a more fuzzy concept of boundaries- not really their fault. Apparently these ones were the projects.
For example, Gothard standing with a girl in a hotel room after hours. We can almost feel the tension in the air. He never says anything or does anything overt- but everyone in the room knows what is going on. The body can't completely lie. I don't understand hormones, but there is some subliminal communication going on. Gothard is standing at the line, waiting for her to make a move. If she initiates crossing the "line", what then? In our stories, she walks away with a troubled heart. If she initiates something physical with this powerful, single, worshipful man at this moment, where is that story? Do we have any stories of someone getting rejected by Gothard for inappropriate advances? Are there girls out there that put the first foot over the line, but are too controlled by guilt to know that they had walked into a trap? I hope not.
So he read Fox's Book of Martyrs and wants to be a martyr. I have a suggestion, he could easily go to the middle east and join the Christians there. I'm sure ISIS will accomodate the request. Seriously though, that whole statement is a set up to show that he is now a martyr for Christ while hiding in his home in Chicago. It is very insulting to the real martyrs over there in the middle east. It takes the cake and is unbelievable.
Amen
The other issue is the claim that the testimonies on here were in secret. The problem is that this isn't true at all, a number of them gave there names and included pictures from the times of their involvement with Bill. Unbelievable.
Gothard - "What was the root cause of my offense toward them?" --- You are a pervert; is that clear enough for you?!
He expands his work day hours "4 am and went until 11 pm" in the guise of wanting to 'work as much as he could for the Lord', when he was really using after hours for sexually grooming young women. (As confirmed by this woman: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/charlottes-stori/ )
"Each young person at the Headquarters was there because either their parents had asked me to work with them, or I saw special potential in them to be effective for the Lord." -- No, No, you saw an opportunity to groom and molest!
"When I would counsel a young lady I would need to find out what her problems were, but I avoided specific details of her actual wrongdoing." --- Lie! You asked them every detail of their relationships with boys down to how they actually kissed, etc...You enjoyed any salacious details you could pull out of them.
"Many of these young ladies told me that I was their “spiritual father.” I accepted this position with joy and delight." --- I bet you did. All that abuse you could get away with, because as their "spiritual father"you had much "authority" over them and knew it was key to silencing them.
"God is my witness that I have never kissed a girl, nor touched any young lady in a sensual way." --- So far 34 young women have come forward and said you did; they are all liars? and we are to believe you? You who also tried to cover up the fact that your brother was having sex with the secretaries at your precious "Institute"?! NO! we don't believe you---a misogynist who wrongly divides the Word of Truth to hide your own sins.
"I do understand in a much deeper way how these young ladies feel and how my insensitivity caused them to feel the way they do." ---STOP with the false narrative that you gave too much attention to some young women and this was the reason they were "offended." You sexually abused them, now OWN IT! Then admit it it publicly and make proper restitution to your victims. Then stop using your lies to try to resurrect interest in your "ministry."
"I do humbly and sincerely ask each one of you whom I have offended and caused to be disillusioned to forgive me." --- Disillusioned? That's how you describe the victims of your sexual abuse? Bill Gothard YOU are DELUSIONAL!
The tactics Bill exercized in the past are continuing to be exercized now.The hype and power he exerted over his "faithful",he will use to gather another"harvest of souls" of those potentially able to be "harvested".This requires a bare minimum of "feigned contrition","spiritual posturing",of course over minor misunderstood intentions,the continuous denial of concrete,hard hitting evidence,suggesting otherwise,and as Rob War reiterated,a shameless lack of self effacement in a martyr complex.What Gothard now needs are "mercenary automatons" in a new symbiotic relationship to look the other way and cast a blind eye as they ride on top of the wave.The same wave that crushed thousands in repressive teachings,sexual exploitation,robbing,plundering of everything from human dignity to exhaustion from overwork.With this new series of denials and hopes,we his former victims will be forced to relive being exploited,counted as nothing,back to the bad memories.After all these years we still are really the ones who were wrong.
David, I pray that those who are finding freedom will not be dragged down by a self-deluded old man proclaiming his own innocence. Fall on Jesus and live!
Haven't had time to read through the comments. I did read his statement. Did he claim the testimonies on this site are libelous? Or was his wording too vague? He did say that the stories that came out against him a couple years ago were false allegations.
Even if there was only one young woman who had been abused, that is one too many! I am sick of the attitude from christians, "But look at how much good they [the abuser] did." The implication is that as long as your scales have 'good' outweighing the 'bad', then there is no case to be answered for the bad.
Also, I am sick of the line, "They are offended", which clearly puts blame and shame on the person who is objecting to abuse. What it says is, "The problem is with you, not with my (offensive/abusive) behaviour."
Amen.
Not interested in anything Bill Gothard!
At the very end of B.G.'s "New Statement" address is misspelled.
The silliest part of this to me is the notion that positive stories cancel out negative stories.
If a man had 100 female employees and he mistreated #1-#7, it would not matter if #71, #92 and #9 spoke out about positive experiences. The man would still need to answer for #1-#7, and their negative stories would still be valid.
Lindsey, this is a great point, and it seems that BG and his followers do not get this. Jesus left the 99 for the 1. BG abused the 1 for the 99. What a difference!
I'm sorry, Bill.
I'm just not needing any snake oil right now--I bought quite a bit of that years ago, and I'm all stocked up for...let's see...maybe another 80 years or so. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
So sorry. I guess if past facts had been correctly represented, it might be a bit easier to garner future trust.
No surprise here -- classic Gothard. If there were any question about whether he has actually repented it is answered. Not a shred of it. And of course, what is not addressed, and never will be, is his false teachings. His sexual misconduct was terrible to be sure, but Bill Gothard has damaged the spiritual lives of many with his false gospel of legalism and submission to authority. Unfortunately, some of the blame belongs to those who are likewise blind to the Truth and continue to support him.
I gave up on BG decades ago and found this site out of pure curiosity. I am stunned! I knew there were allegations about his brother but didn't know about the ones against bg. Probably the major thing about the seminars from years ago that offended me is when bg basically said you have to have this entire notebook conquered before you can marry. I was engaged at the time. But the night bg said he needed 2 things to get married: 1. to find the right woman and 2. a free weekend. Really? You're that perfect? Sweet! The arrogance! The greatest thing God has ever taught me is to break me and show me (as much as I'm capable of understanding) just how broken I am.
It's kinda obvious that Bill's new web site redo was a preemptive counter in case Jim Bob mentioned his name in the interview. Since Jim did protect Bill's identity and Bill must have been notified of that, it was removed and the old put back. However Bill shows like the Duggars that he really doesn't understand the internet because once something is out there no matter how brief a time, you can't take it back. The Duggars likewise showed their naivety in going forward with a reality TV show never thinking that the secret problems with Josh would ever get out for the world to see. You can't put the genie back in the bottle and their cluelessness is their downfall.
My guess is different. This has been in the works for months and has nothing to do with the recent Duggar fiasco. It was taken down because it was not properly edited and, some have said here, he did NOT have permission to publish some of the letters. The one that admits to sexual immorality with Steve Gothard is particularly troublesome for publication.
I speculate that these letters were actually gathered as character references during the "investigation" in 2014.
you could be correct, the timing is just too curious though.
Seems like he pretty much has to acknowledge the giant elephant in the room at this point, but it's all very smoothly written in an obvious damage-control saving-face way. It also feels like he's trying to re-launch his public image, with a sort of "counter-attack" with all of the "positive" testimonies as if it'll cancel out all of the negative ones. Curious that the re-launched website was pulled so quickly (was BG strongly advised against it, in that it was too soon?) On any webpage or printed advertisement I've ever seen, and even on his briefly launched new website, he seems to love to put pictures of packed out seminars, especially of that one of the packed out stadium from back in the 70s.
As to his overall intentions and motives, it's hard to say. He's basically watching 40-50 years of "ministry" unravel before his eyes. And this isn't a case of 45 positive years that were brought to a halt by a 1 or 2 year long fall into sin, but the prospect of the entire span losing all credibility and validation (save for a devoted remnant). His life's work has been the Titanic that struck the iceberg and started taking on water long ago, but only now that it's too late is BG starting to sense the ship listing. The problem is that he's still trying to bail out the water even though the stern is already up in the air.
Those 40+ years sinking entirely, and coming to terms with the damage he's caused would be completely breaking for him. It would be the ultimate coming to the end of himself, precisely where God wants to and needs to bring any of us before He can come in and rebuild. None of us are capable of performing surgery on ourselves (as I suspect BG has been attempting) because we are unable to plunge the scalpel deep enough as only the master Surgeon can. And when God plunges His scalpel, you'll know it because it is a deep, deep pain like none other (it will feel like the shadow of death itself); a pain I honestly don't wish on anyone but a necessary pain to bring one to the end of him/herself. Those 40+ years crumbling would indeed be the worst thing to happen to BG, and at the same time be the best thing to happen to him, for the sake of his soul. Paul experienced it while on his way along the road to perform more of his "ministry" when he was quite literally knocked flat on his back by the glory of Christ. Paul was brought so much to the end of himself that he eventually looked back to all of his education, former position and prestige, and labeled it all "rubbish" and worth losing all in exchange for gaining Christ. BG may indeed be on his own "road" at this point late in his life. I struggle to pray for him (perhaps for his very salvation), having been wounded by his teachings filtered through my own family growing up. The early church no doubt struggled in praying for Paul and remained skeptical of him even as he wrote what would later become the Epistles.
...to tack on a quote from A.W. Tozer, "It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply"
I understand your point but St. Paul repented and converted to Christianity. It kinda appears to all that Bill has not repented and his own downfall is the result of his own actions, not anything else. He doesn't see that he did anything wrong or sinful and he presented himself with the latest as a misunderstood martyr because he promised God at 15 years old that he would die for God. So according to Bill, he is just working for Jesus and he is now suffering for it. He is suffering because of his own actions and teachings. What is kinda sad is that what brought him down isn't his teaching and their harm but his own personal behavior, both of which have gone on too long. That has nothing to do with the Lord's cleansing or chastisement. It's his own problems, actions, ideas and what really is in play is that "one reaps what they sow".
I wasn't necessarily comparing BG with Paul in terms of Paul's subsequent conversion. I was only saying that BG is coming to a point of personal ruin similar to Paul's road experience. How he responds after that remains to be seen. I was merely speaking with hope that it would be finding Christ.
yes, I understand the point and your hope. I guess I view Paul's conversion as a direct encounter with God and didn't result from his own behavior. It just two different angles. I appreciate your insight.
Seeing how he challenged us all to memorize Romans 6, it is especially pitiful to consider that he should have "reckoned himself dead" BEFORE he tried so hard, rather than trying to do all he could before Christ claimed his life.
This website is false. I got on it in just a few minutes and I can see where it is leading people to hell. There's nothing but very bitter posts on it and it centers around bitterness and unforgiveness. Bill Gothard has asked forgiveness. We are told in the bible that we have to forgive or else God will not forgive us. This website tells people it can listen to rock music and I, for one, know where that kind of thought comes from. It's from the devil. You're a feel good website, come and get comfort. Talebear your testimonies. Talk about others. Get some false comfort and go to hell is what your website is all about. You don't fool me!!!
Kim
Kim,
I would highly encourage you to dig deeper into the website. It is not filled with "bitter" people, but rather people who have discovered their true freedom in Christ and do not want others to be led into the same bondage.
Kim, I also ask that you dig a bit deeper. Many of us are still Christians but have found that Jesus is so much different than anything Bill or IBLP taught. Even though we are sinners, it does not have to be the factor that dictates our entire lives, because, through Jesus, we are free. That is what is missing from the teachings of IBLP and Bill.
Here is something I wrote: http://www.yousaidithought.com/wretched-sinner/#comment-110
I'm sorry you feel that way Kim. Though your comments are hardly edifying themselves. If, from your vantage point as a sister in Christ, you were truly concerned for "wayward" brothers and sisters if not lost souls entirely, then you would not crack the door open for "just a few minutes" for the purpose of tossing a grenade in. That is not speaking the truth in love, and you've obviously only read the comments under the articles. I'm not going to defend every person commenting here, as there are a lot of wounded people in this forum at different stages. Some have found the grace to extend forgiveness and are moving on, praise God. Others are still struggling, yes with anger and bitterness (a lot others I'll dare to say). Your prayers would be appreciated if you decide to take further time to read the articles and prevailing discussions. I can only apologize if my own comments have offended you somehow. I truly hope and pray that Christ would continue to fill the remaining voids in your heart, just as He is continually with a lot of us.
Kim, I'm so sorry that you're feeling upset. I know that's unpleasant and difficult to work through.
Many people have accused Recovering Grace and its authors of being "bitter." In my experience, when people are convicted of the truth, their first response is to lash out in anger at the person exposing the truth to them. A personal attack, such as an accusation of "bitterness," is the usual method. I've seen this happen over and over again, in real life and on the internet. It's very difficult for people to realize the truth about a man they've idolized, such as Bill Gothard. To admit that Bill Gothard was wrong about something is to also admit that they have spent a portion of their lives - sometimes decades as in my parents' case - living and promoting a lifestyle that is based on errors.
Many of us had doubts and struggles through our years of living the IBLP/ATI lifestyle. Yes, it is comforting to realize that we are not alone! We are instructed in Scripture to comfort the broken-hearted, and that is part of our goal here at Recovering Grace. Many people have been very hurt by Bill Gothard and his teachings, and are in desperate need of comfort and support and healing. One of the needs that Recovering Grace provides is a place for the broken-hearted to find help and comfort. We give a voice to the otherwise silent suffering caused by Bill Gothard's teachings. I suppose that this may sound like "bitterness," since we don't require hurting people to keep a "Ministry Smile" firmly in place at all times! Sometimes the healing process includes pain and even anger that is easy to label as "bitterness," when instead it's simply acknowledging and then processing through the pain.
Continuing to cover up the very dark underbelly of IBLP, ATI, and Bill Gothard is unhealthy. Satan is the father of lies and confusion and deception, but God is the author of truth. If your doctor discovers that cancer is growing in your body, ignoring it and pretending that all is well means that no healing takes place. Recovering Grace is the doctor performing painful procedures to expose the cancer so that it can hopefully be healed.
As for your assertion that Bill Gothard has asked forgiveness - I can assure you that he has not followed his own teachings on the subject. His "apologies" have been defensive and self-justifying, and have accused his victims of exaggerating or even lying. He has never clearly stated that he was wrong, without justifying his own actions, and he has not sought to make restitution. Several of the young ladies that he took advantage of are personal friends, so I know for sure that he has not provided any restitution, nor has any proper apology been made. Thus, according to the Basic Seminar, he has *not* asked for forgiveness. This is based on his own teachings.
As for your accusation that Recovering Grace tells people they can listen to rock music - I'm not sure where you're seeing that. What I read on Recovering Grace is that a personal relationship with Jesus is a much better goal than following a list of rules. I read that we must be careful not to stretch Scriptures, or take them out of context, in order to prove a point that we wish to make.
As for myself, when I realized that most of the "rules" I was following (no rock music being one of them) in my life came from people, not from the Bible, I knew that in Christ, I was free to obey the BIBLE, not other people. Rather than "go[ing] to hell," for the first time in my life, I have an actual *relationship* with God, not a checklist of rules that I must follow before God *might* like me enough to bless me! For the first time in years, I *enjoy* going to church, instead of dreading it! I *enjoy* refreshing my soul with music, and yes, sometimes that music has drums! When I am hurting, I know that I can turn to God for comfort and peace, because He doesn't require me to go through a checklist before I may approach Him in prayer! If something in my life needs to change, He lovingly points that out to me, and I can make that change - I don't need another human giving me a list of things that I must do or not do when God and the Holy Spirit and the Bible are perfectly capable of giving me the guidance that I need.
I sense from your note that you are experiencing a lot of pain and anger in your life right now, so I will pray for you to find true peace and healing. This is my prayer for you - that you will be able to experience God's unconditional love for you.
Beautiful, Margie-- I agree with what you said.
Kim, why is Mr. Gothard prohibited from ministry in IBLP?
You can keep rock music out of your house, but your brother can still molest you.
You can be wide-eyed and innocent but Mr. Gothard can still sexually harass you.
You can obey your father and mother in all things, but your father and mother can teach you a Gospel other than the one taught by the Apostles and the Scripture.
You can obey your pastor and he can run away with the church secretary.
You can read the Authorized King James Version only but if Spanish is your only language it is nonsense.
"not of works, lest any man should boast" "by the works of the law no one will be justified". Pray for us, we are praying for you. May God's Grace overwhelm you.
No Kim, it is the truth. When I first came on the web site about a year ago. I could not believe that BG had done anything wrong. having attended multiple Basic and Advanced seminars I was helped by his teaching, although I was turned off by the ATI as being legalistic. However, once I came on to RG and read Dallas Seminary's very reputable OT scholar, Dr. Ron Allen's blistering critique of BG (which he wrote way back in the late 70's) I knew something was terribly amiss. Then I read the dozens of devastating testimonials that painted a picture of deceit and manipulation. The picture is clear for me now. This man is a manipulator and a false prophet. Yes, some have been helped by his teaching, but so many more have been hurt. As a pastor, I cannot promote his materials any longer...and my heart goes out to both the men and women who have been used and hurt. Remember, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are seeing this now unfold on the Duggars and other powerful ministries like Mars Hill. I just don't see Jesus, our Lord, broadcasting on mainstream and social media like so many do today. The early church grew from house to house, through love and care for the body, through one on one witnessing, not self-promotion and fat book and TV contracts. Please Read Ron Allens' critique. it will change your mind about BG for good.
"Talebear[ing]" so much about RG from just a "few minutes" of browsing? Demanding forgiveness?
Your motives are desperate, and you don't fool me, either, dear.
There is but one answer to your predicament, and His name is Jesus.
Duck Hunting :-)
Omg, Guy - lots of quacking lately. Poor duck is trying so hard to get out of the trap he set himself but never thought he'd get caught in. "Proven" methods aren't working for him and he can't trust anyone that could actually help him before it's too late. Duck's either asking what he needs to do or lashing out at the ones that could help, still looking for methods to free himself rather than for a savior to pull him out.
Elizabeth D, I agree with you. So true. BG is doing what we all are tempted to do (and sometimes we do) Cover our sin if we can. If not we still want to pretend everything is OK. We still crave the honor we had.
1 Samuel 15- 30 Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord your God.”
I find myself saying a lot to my kids these last few years, "It is easy to see the sin in the other person, I just have trouble seeing it in myself." So true that we all need a savior to pull us out.
Kim, it sounds to me that you have anger and bitterness against RG and maybe as a suggestion, you may need to forgive them and not be so burden with anger and bitterness against RG.
May God continue to use Recovering Grace to reflect Truth in the midst of such BG/IBLP/DUGGAR lies and manipulation.
Thank you, rg, for your help. Keep up the good work. Praying for you.
I just wanted to also say that I watched the Meagan Kelly interview. So sad. The Duggars are such Gothardites that they cannot see the forest through the trees in their devotion to BG. Michelle is so naive and plastic, it was hard to watch. Sadly, the key question was not asked: "Why did you go on TLC knowing that their may have been a possibility of having Josh's record leaked? Din't you consider this possibility when you signed the contract--and how much was that contract worth?" The Duggars have no one but themselves to blame for all of this. They put themselves out there on secular media for fame and fortune and are now paying the price--as are all believers.
Question. Megan said the leak of the 2006 report was illegal. I thought it was gotten by the FOIA. Josh was 18 when that report was filed. Was it an illegal leak?
I think from what I was able to gather from the conversations with the lawyers the night before with Megan tha juvenile records are suppose to be sealed and the report was done when he was still a juvenile. In Touch did ask for the report under FOIA and from one of the lawyers said the police chief went to an attorney general who gave it the ok. From what they were saying though under Arkansas law, juvenile records are suppose to be sealed and not subject to FOIA. So it is going to get very interesting I'm sure.
I missed the interview and am hoping to see it online at some point. That is the exact question I wanted someone to ask. I can understand, as a parent, wanting to protect your son. I can understand making an error of judgment that way. But going on a TV show, knowing that they had that in their past and sooner or later it would probably come to light and those poor girls would have to deal with it all so publicly!!! That I don't understand and am having a hard time justifying.
Yes, Susan, so am I. I don't question JB or Michelle in their commitment to Christ or to their family. I do question their wisdom in putting themselves and their family on a Reality TV show, especially knowing what happened with Josh. Their foolish need for fame and fortune (or at least for a lot of notoriety) has come back to haunt them in a major way.
Don't forget the seminars (I attended) and maybe ATI (I did not) talked alot about life message. They were probably encouraged by the organization to be spokespeople to promote the program. If you are obedient to your authorities and your brain is turned off (it was) then you follow through without considering the consequences. The institute was using these various families as free PR.
Megyn Kelly did ask why they agreed to the show knowing what their son did. They said it had been taken care of, forgiven and dealt with. They also implied that they were concerned with the filed police reports and said they had been assured by someone in authority that there was no possibility of Josh's records being released, so they felt free to go ahead with the show.
Not that I agree with that conclusion on their part, but Megyn did cover the issue.
I can confirm that this capture of the billgothard.com website posted is legitimate. We received the link from a pro-Gothard friend who posted it inviting their friends to check out his new site. I would rather not share that person's name publicly at this point in time. I can guarantee you that this person would not do this to hurt Bill Gothard. While I deeply disagree with the person, I cannot in good conscience assign any ill intent to them.
I read the site fully and can validate that the content on this article contains the actual content which had been posted on billgothard.com (with portions redacted upon request of the individuals to the best of my understanding).
Bill Gothard appears to be failing to obey the direction of the IBLP board to be reconciled to those he offended and persists in justifying himself. That is the real tragedy of this situation.
Question from Rob War above: rob war June 4, 2015 Reply
Larne,
quick question, did you know the woman from the new yet removed web site that claims to be from the time frame you would have been there? It doesn't fit with the testimonies from others from the 1970's.
Rob,
Yes we know Linda. What concerns us is that Bill Gothard has been using her for the past 17 months to do his bidding, and we repeatedly told him to stop. Specifically last June in a meeting with Gothard, Bill Wood appealed to him again to stop. Linda in the past has been fragile and easily manipulated by Bill, she had a difficult time in the fallout of the 1980 scandal when she and the other women were abandoned and blamed by Bill. With Bill’s history of discarding those he no longer has use for, we are concerned he will abandon Linda again when she is no longer needed. It would be inappropriate for me to speak for the other women even though I have been in contact with several of them and they have quietly supported our efforts to bring Bill to repentance without their involvement. (We have not requested they participate in our endeavor and have only contacted some of them to keep them informed.)
The damage that was perpetrated on these women is unspeakable. The emotional scars are still evident. Knowing of his brother’s immorality in 1976, Bill continued to send women to work under his brother in the remote Northwood. Two of the women that had been previously abused in 1976 were subsequently sent by Bill to the Northwood where they were abused again. One has personally told me that the Gothards had instructed her to keep quiet about the abuse. Sadly this 1976 disclosure was not the first time Bill heard about it. In 1969 Bill was told of another immoral issue involving his brother. The 1969 event was also dealt with by the covering of sin. This makes his failing to deal with the 1976 disclosure all the more sinful. Twice he was made aware of a problem and failed to take the necessary precautions to protect his employees. Bill finally admitted to both disclosures in that above meeting a year ago in front of five witnesses.
When the scandal was exposed in May of 1980 the women were made to stand up in front of the staff twice and confess. There were nine women and Bill’s brother, the women took 90% of the blame and the brother took 10%. The second confessional was required because the Board thought the first confessional was too general. The women were humiliated and devastated. Ruth and maybe others were personally verbally attacked by a Gothard family member in a private meeting following the confessional.
Bill told each woman that she could come back to the institute after a period of healing (although none planned to) then only to learn that Bill had fired them in a letter to 20,000 pastors two months later. Even that letter was not sent to them, they first learned of their terminations when it was reported in the Christian press.
The women were given no counseling or support, and Bill insured that the blame was shifted to them and also his brother. He walked away having deflected most of the criticism to victims. Bill had held the most vital secrets of his staff, as a measure of control. He knew who was abused, who was a family outcast, whose father would turn over control of their daughters to the anointed in place of their own common sense. This provided little recourse or places of sympathy and understanding for those who left and made things worse.
However, the scandal did destroy the popularity (cash cow) of the Basic Seminar as it was known in the 70s. Unfortunately, Bill reinvented himself with the ATI program and garnered a new group of followers, which most of you have had to endure under.
To finally answer your question because of the above we don’t feel we can publicly comment any more on Linda or anyone else because of what they have gone through, some for over 40 years. The matter is still unsettled, and Bill is still publicly unrepentant for specific sins for a very public ministry. To end on a positive note, each of the women of 1980, along with the rest of that staff, truly loved the Lord and had given their lives to serve him and make a difference for Christ. The problem was the instrument that we had chosen to serve through slowly became rotten to its core.
Larne Gabriel
Bill Wood
Thanks for sharing. Am I correct in understanding Linda to say that all the women Steve was involved with were sworn to secrecy with the promise of marriage? Does that seem accurate based on what you know?
Susan,
I think it had more to do with the abuse. But part of the sexual harassment included the talk of marriage as he moved from one women to the next. I have been told he had a big diamond ring he would flash at some of the women in the vain of legitimizing his harassment and abuse. Remember this is not about Steve, I have heard he is a changed man. Steve never presented himself as a spiritual leader. The issue is Bill's covering of sin and being more concerned about the success of the ministry then the cost that success brought to his staff.
Thanks, I've heard the term "sexual abuse" used a lot in connection with the 1980 scandal and was never sure what that meant - either "I really wanted to marry this guy and he turned out to be a lying cheat," or "I didn't want to be involved with him at all but felt that I had no choice." Neither scenario put Steve (or Bill) in a good light, but they are rather different situations.
(It probably varied from woman to woman.)
Is this the person you refer to? http://midwestoutreach.org/open-letter-to-bill-gothard-march-25-2006/
Never mind, sorry for asking.
Thank-you Larne. Reading this makes me sick to my stomach. My only reaction is OMG.
Larne,
Thank you for sharing. I have 3 daughters who went partway through ATI. It brings tears to my eyes at the vulnerable state our young girls are in especially in spiritual matters.
I attended the counseling seminar with my two older girls a few years back. By our groups surprise bg changed plans and decided to sit at our table for lunch. I had never met him and so as we sat he could not take his eyes off my older daughter, he seemed mesmerized by her. I ignored it and tried to make conversation with the other girls and include his attention on some of them. I look back now and see how he ignored parents. It both angers me and saddens me at how long it took me to wise up, and I'm an adult.
I am confident that God has come along side those women you spoke of and I pray His richest blessings upon them. I think I can speak for many that these women are brave and deserve our utmost respect. Their stories will not go unheard and unaccounted for if we can do something about it. They should remain private but the crimes should not go unpunished.
Susan,
The punishment I don't worry about because I am reminded of Matthew 7 and particularly vs 21-23, this could be Bill's ultimate punishment. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." (ESV)
Bill has been warned and this verse has been shared with him on several occasions. Personally, I have forgiven him but that does not mean there is not accountability or consequences on his part. This would include Matthew 18:15-17 and particular vs 17 which is in play now to warn others.
What you describe in your encounter with him could probably be replayed in every story written on RG. It has been Bill’s historical practice going back at least to the late 60s when my late wife had her first encounter with Bill. I am confident it was even before then. As a parent you would have no reason to suspect there was something wrong with his attention because of his projected spirituality and success of his ministry. Now looking back you have more of the history and a better understanding. Hindsight is always 20/20.
If questioned Bill knew what to say and what words to use. He was a great salesman and could sell the Pope the Vatican and the Pope would have thought he was getting a great deal. Sadly Bill used his powers against living breathing people with devastating consequences. When confronted he used that same salesman skills to shift the blame to the victim. Other would be convinced he was repentant for his small part of the “misunderstanding of his pure intent”.
We all sin and make mistakes but the real question is what we learn from those experiences and then apply His promise of 1 John 1:9. God uses those life lessons to bring us to a closer walk with Him where we experience His fullness and love in our “direct” relationship with Him.
Larne
Thank you.
Thank you for all this information. If only we had known all this in 1987 when we began ATI. So very sad.
After reading the testimony of the young woman who gave 10 single years to BG then God blessed her with the right man who also gave some of his single youth to Christian service, I got the subliminal message that marriages fail and God will not bless with the right spouse because a person does not serve God as a single person like this woman did. And if you want God's best in a spouse then working 10 years for God is the way to go. I guess I got it all wrong, because I thought that it was a life long service to God.
The references to "single service" stuck out to me, too. The more I think about it, the weirder it is to me that an employer would call out the marital status of his or her employees. Was their service more special because they were unmarried? It doesn't make sense.
Remember, Bill taught that women were not suppose to work outside of the home, so for any female to work for Bill, they had to be single and that is one reason why he would promote to a young woman to stay single and "work for the Lord". Also Bill promoted that when you are single, you are suppose to "give your heart to the Lord" and if you did have any type of interest in the opposite sex ( which a normal person would have and is God given anyway)you were not really giving your "heart to the Lord". It is twisted thinking from a twisted man.
Thanks, rob.
Maybe if he was given a wife, he would be less of a glorious martyr.
Per BG, I guess you don't work for the Lord when you are a married woman.
Likewise, all these "glowing, I love bill" testimonies emphasized that these women "gave themselves and their hearts to the Lord" and because they were not selfish but served God, God rewarded them with wonderful husbands and happy marriages. This begs the question about Bill, if Bill "gave his heart to the Lord in selfless service" then why hasn't he been blessed with a happy marriage?
Because BG believes he's the Protestant Pope.
BG wants us all to believe he's "above" being controlled by fleshly, carnal, desires!
Susan, your comment made me laugh! I think that Bill thinks that he also has the gift of infallibility in teaching dogma and doctrine as well. We will have to get him a throne so he can rule "ex cathedra" from. I guess I will have to pass though, I do like the current Pope. :) Sorry Bill.
BG's inconsistencies continue to mount, yet he is a master at deceiving so many.
When Gothard read the Fox's Book of Martyrs through which ,I believed, it is God calling him, his response was "Lord, right now I purpose to live and die for you.". Right after this, he started his ministry without accountability, let along knowing who the Lord really is.
Let's compare this with apostle Paul's response when he had the call in the road to Damascus.
Acts 9 : "..Paul immediately fell to the earth, and said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecuted: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks. And Paul trembling and astonished said, Lord, what will you have me to do?"
You know the rest of Paul's conversion story : The Lord directed him to Ananias ( a fellow Christian)to heal his blindness caused by the Lord's brightening appearance to him. Paul retreated to Tarsus for 14 years , before he understood the meaning of the call and the Lord is the great I AM in his Bible (the old testament), and started his ministry by coming back to Body of Christ with Barnabas(Galatians 2.1).
Unlike Paul's conversion which is full of personal persecution, humility, and brotherly love through God's grace, Gothard's is a one-man show. From beginning to now, Gothard has never been accountable to any fellow Christians, and his ministry is full of personal achievements, superficial piety, and false humility.
Based on what he taught and behaved, I truly doubt if he knows the Lord at all.
Almost at the end of his life, he is still fighting for his own integrity, fame, and what not. What a pity!
A life well lived will be like Paul, John, Billy Graham (who said in his old age I am ready to go home with the Lord), and countless others.
A good lesson for us all.
Joshua...I was a very new babe in Christ when I first attended a Bill Gothard seminar and came away very troubled in my spirit. And confused when my church and new friends in Christ were so 'in' to Gothardism. I was told my troubled spirit was satan casting doubts and confusion my way.As a new Christian I didn't know what to think. It took 40 years to be free of the entanglement and the lure of the teachings of Gothard.AND THE GUILT!Inow live by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. I can not understand how Bill Gothard can get away with his definition of faith and grace and not be held accountable. Faith is NOT visualizing what God has in mind for you..it is simply taking God at His word! And grace? No one can define grace the way Bill does and truly know HIM.
Re: BG's New Statement
Just a typical narcissist explanation: I'm sorry you were upset because you didn't get enough of me. I didn't realize you were so needy.
Auntie Go-Go, you nailed it as to what twisted presuming underlies BG's accusation against those he claims "feel neglected & sometimes rejected."
although my family did not go deep into BG teachings there was enough influence to confuse me and my husband"s family (we grew up together) was much more involved with BG. This notion that you are "buying" certain favors from God through your service or obedience is so damaging and so hard to shake. But there it still is, plain as day, in the introduction to Ginger"s testimony. I know my mother-in-law suspects us of some secret great sin because of our 9 year battle with infertility. If only life were that simple.... it is a great blow to faith when you realize being good does not guarantee "success" - BG and his teachings are poison.
We're all still a little confused. I still question whether it's "a waste" and "canceling" if I drink milk with a meal including red meat. Thank God for Google.
Oh yes! And will it weaken me physically if I wear a garment containing two different fabrics?!
Ann, you have to be kidding me! He says that? I haven't had anything to do with him for years and years so have no idea what he has said recently. One disturbing aspect of this for me is to realize how sick I was to get caught up in this.
OMTSLP, ty for sharing.
In "God's Best- The Commitments pay off", which is #6 on the list of editor's picks, the author, Ryan, shares the agony he & his wife went through as ATI-ers going through the same thing. As Gothardites. Not an easy decade.
I just had to come back to this page and share that I am 7 months pregnant with a healthy baby girl. After 10 years of treatment and trying...a pregnancy with no interventions. A miracle : ).
I cannot help but think that information/truth like what is shared on this website has been helpful in calming anxiety within me at some level and giving me the appropriate channel for frustration with the confusion and false teaching....thus making me a healthier person both spiritually and physically.
I really do wonder what kind of parent I would have been had I been able to 10 years ago. I am beyond grateful that my baby girl will NOT be reared with these damaging "principles."
What wonderful news, OMTSLP! Congratulations!
May you grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus as you rear this little one <3 and may you be (as Jeff Van Vonderen's book title says) a family where grace is in place.
I am sure there are many on RG rejoicing with you!
Congratulations! Great news!
Congratulations!!!! Your baby is so lucky!!! Think of all there is to tell her about the miracle of being "born of the free woman", not of "the bondwoman" (Galations). God has indeed had his hand in your fertility all throughout to make sure that any child of yours would truly be a freedom-blessed child. I am so happy for you.
Rejoicing with you!! May God be with you on your parenting journey, and bless you and your family every day as you live in His grace! Congratulations!
Is anyone investigating IBLP's personnel records from 2013 until February 2014 to determine if Bill Gothard had access to underage women during that time period?
I was a witness, actually a recipient, of the manipulation that Bill Gothard shared in his New Statement. When we were an ATI family, my stepdaughter served at headquarters. I had my reservations about her going but she was very excited about the opportunity so my wife and I sent her. My concern at the time was the twisting of both scripture and of personal testimony that was often presented in IBLP materials and conferences. Unfortunately I set aside spiritual discernment with the belief that the good (from IBLP)outweighed the bad. After many months, my wife grew concerned of our daughter's independent spirit and how it was becoming more evident in her time away from home. So I made a trip to headquarters to spend time with her, meet her friends there, and see firsthand what her daily routine was like. While I was there, Bill invited me to meet with him since I had already expressed to him our desire to bring our daughter home. The meeting with Bill was an eye opening experience. After I again expressed our desire for our daughter to return home, Bill brought up my previous divorce. He proceeded to tell me that my stepdaughter was not really my daughter and strongly implied that I did not have parental authority over her. I politely but firmly told Bill that she was indeed my daughter, and just as much my child as her younger siblings (my biological children).
Our meeting ended shortly after that. Not only was I personally offended by his remarks but it made me realize that he had no intention of encouraging my daughter in her relationship with me.
My family withdrew from ATI at the end of that year. Several years passed then, out of the blue, I received a call from Bill. We had not spoken since our meeting at headquarters. He referred back to the meeting and expressed apologies and asked for my forgiveness. I told him that I did forgive him and appreciated his call. It wasn't until much later that I realized that he did not call to apologize for what he told me. He specifically apologized for "any misunderstanding" that I had about what he said. In other words, he was apologizing, not for himself, but for me! So by his form of apology, he was actually denying that he had ever said what he said.
This is the pattern that Bill displays to this day. He is clearly unrepentant. I do pray for him. I pray that he would humble himself before God and give true confession in contrite spirit so that he may receive the grace of God in a life transforming way.
I should add that once I had told Bill that our daughter would be leaving headquarter, she noticed an immediate dissociation from her by Bill. It was clear that he was giving her the cold shoulder because of the decision that her parents made on her behalf. Needless to say it hurt her because she had grown to love him very much.
TY for sharing this Jim! I have to ask... Does your step-daughter fit the profile of BG's preferred young women? Blond, etc...
Yes, Susan. She has long blond hair and is very beautiful physically (but even more so spiritually :)). She recognized very shortly after arriving at HQ that physical attractiveness was one of the main criteria for working there.
I'm inspired by how you stood up for your daughter and didn't doubt your own observations, beliefs, and obligations. The audacity BG had to imply she wasn't your daughter and you don't have parental rights over her!
Agreed, as if by some stretch he did!!!!
This sounds like an exaggeration, but Bill seemed to think that his role of president of IBLP gave him some kind of extremely significant spiritual headship over the individuals working there. There is almost a Papal aspect to his view of his own authority.
Daniel, I don't believe it was an exaggeration. There are people who testify that when they were away from their parents, Bill exercised control over them that ought to have had parental oversight, but did not. He usurped the parental authority that he very clearly taught, which is very hypocritical, and wound up being very hurtful to many.
Daniel, that was not a stretch in the least.
I am the Mom of an ALERT son and an EXCEL daughter. (whoa, they would not like to be called that but I am saying this for the purpose of this comment) Our parental oversight was usurped in both of those programs. These are their stories to tell so I will not go into detail but it was simply ALARMING - things we found out about the needs of our own children while away at these programs that were never told us by the (I HATE to use this word here but they were supposed to be this and with their heads on straight) authorities over these programs.
I teach. I have taught in 2 private schools now and NOTHING is kept "at school" when it comes to a need or hurt or issue regarding one of the students in our schools. All is communicated to the parents. We would have it no other way. AND it is communicated quickly.
Come to think of it, depending on the issue at hand, this is probably the law.
So, no Daniel, you did not make a stretch there at all. This is one of the 'main things' here - BG's high estimation of himself and low estimation of parents. Wow. Weird. h.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e. teach one thing - do the other.
Jim, Thanks for your story. Everything about it sounds like BG to me. At one time, I drank the Kool Aid myself.
I clearly remember the early ATI days when we met yearly in Bloomington IN, BG answering a question about who has the authority, the "real" parent or the step parent. He explained that it was whoever had the "legal" (state law) authority (at the time in question) had the spiritual authority.
Perhaps BG forgot what he once said. After all he had a lot to keep track of, all the lies, large organization, and lots of girls his type. I am still amazed at his evil ability.
I second what Brumby said about the good job of standing up for your daughter in spite of BG's pressure.
Reply
Jim,
The pattern you saw has been in use by Bill since the early 70s. He also liked weak father who would turn their daughters over to him and tell the girl to be non-specific in there contact with their families. He did that with my late wife and her family. Your standing up to him showed you were not intimidated by his position, which would make him uncomfortable and doubt your daughter's loyalty to him.
His pattern of abandonment once he was done with you is legendary with the old staff and continued thru the ATI era. He will only bring you back into his sphere if it servers his purpose of keeping your at bay or quiet. In that case he follows the principle of "keeping your friends close and your enemies closer." Bill is a master manipulator.
I end that to say GREAT JOB! You accepted your Godly position of father and defended her, regardless of who the biological father was. Your daughter is lucky having two men to look after her.
Yes! And I would add I wish both of you - father and daughter, would submit a story for a main article here. You did the right thing by your daughter, Jim!
If an article was to be presented, it would be a solo effort. Unfortunately my daughter, and much more so my wife, have turned a blind eye to Bill's sins. Not just the sexual sins, cover-up, and lack of repentance, but the dangerous doctrines that he has propagated over the years. When the story broke on BG and criticisms on Gothardism were being posted on FB, my wife and daughter were defending BG and IBLP/ATI on all fronts.
Oh, wow. Well, I think you are a good father for taking good care of your daughter. Have a blessed day!
Jim, Thanks for your story. So sorry to hear of the ongoing deception. The father of lies is always working especially if you mix in some of Gothard.
My long term strategy for my kids who do not see things clearly is to be a good friend who does not betray them. As the years go by, they have had many friends which they became disappointed with. Of course, I hate to see it happen, but it makes me look good. It is hard for them to admit much about this, but it comes up once in a while.
The King of Kings is always working Jim. May He make your hands strong and kind. May He bring light, grace and healing to your family.
I ditto LynnCD's request!
Bill's new website is just a long-form sales-page. If Bill was a nice guy it would be short... but he's not, so the page is long in attempt to convince us otherwise.
Larne mentioned Bill is a master salesman and manipulator. I always thought it odd that IBLP sold Frank Bettger's book "How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success in Selling" in among all the religiosity materials.
Well, it all makes sense now.
L. Ron Hubbard and Bill Gothard were cut from the same cloth. "...If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
Bill Gothard has mastered the art of, "asking for forgiveness," without actually confessing any real sin. Indeed, he has mastered the art of turning his, "repentance," into another proof that he is a man of god. If you listen to Gothard, he is apparently the most misunderstood and misjudged human being who ever lived -- but he gladly, "bears that cross for Jesus," and is sorry for any misunderstandings that we might have. And of course, the focus here is on his abusive conduct. What he really needs to repent of is preaching, "another gospel." That is what created the environment to begin with that opened the door to everything else.
This is not an apology, a confession, or a desire for reconciliation. It is damage control.
is the new website back up? I went to it and it seems to be a revamp of what appeared then was quickly taken down.
Yes, it is. An important difference is those giving testimonies are the ones who believe the allegations made elsewhere are false allegations. Kind of takes the pressure off of Bill to claim they are false allegations - now he apparently has a whole team of people who believe the allegations are false.
It doesn't mean a blessed thing - he's already confessed to playing footsie, although that's not how he worded it. And there are witnesses to other improper behaviors of his - starting with Gary Smalley.
No confession of asking the Board for permission to marry a secretary young enough to be his daughter, or of discussing marriage with another secretary. None of that ever happened. Everything in consistent with his false and partial confession is "inaccurate" or false accusation.
RG needs to post the support letters against the accusations in a timeline showing who and when.
And he never counseled any young man so intimately and confusingly.
Also interesting that he uses the word "sensually" rather than "sexually" in his latest denial. Probably a whole essay there somewhere!
"wearing skirts was a board decision", not BG's.
Good thing too, since he is hiding behind skirts as he has his entire life. Not one male testimony. Not one Board member or ministry leader testimony of how BG responded to discipline and concerns. Only the naïfs who have no personal knowledge and just "can't believe" he could do any of those things.
I thought that was a hilarious line, too! Everyone knows Bill did what he wanted regardless of what the Board wanted--why hide behind the Board now?
Didn't notice this the first time, but the book that is open in the illustration has blank pages, although I'm sure it's supposed to represent the Bible. This is completely appropriate, as Bill's theology is not based on God's Word but his own empty ideas.
"But Mr. G, the new website is not ready for publication."
"That's ok, young minion, I need it up only for a short time."
"But why, sir. There are still many typos and errors that need correction."
"Oh, minion, have you learned nothing. Having it up for just a few hours will let us know what the others at that website are thinking and I will then know how to respond to their commentary."
"In love, sir?"
"Uhhhhhh........yes. Love....eh...ahem...yes, that's it....love."
Bettina wrote…” Gothard is many things but sexually inappropriate is not one of them!”
The people down the street don’t believe their dog is dangerous, but every time I walk down the street and she is out, she comes after me with teeth bared, barking and growling and I have to defend myself and my dog from her advances or she will bite me! They swear she has never bitten anyone, yet the post office is after her for being aggressive to the postal carriers.
While my wife and daughter were shopping in a local thrift store, I noticed a copy of the IBYC book sitting on the shelf. I read through most of the chapters and to put it mildly, Gothard`s teachings are a revival of what Paul warned in the book of Galatians. There is the strong scent of the Pharisees. Most of the content is the doctrine of men, not God. The two most disturbing chapters were on marriage, sexuality and government. His views on women are not too far removed from the teachings of Islam. The view that all men and women are filled with lust is nonsense. Yes there are Christians who struggle with that, but not all. His teachings on your relationship with government should be a outrage to anyone who believes in our Constitution. I wonder if Gothard would stick to divine right if the government was sending people to labor camps. If the Founding Fathers accepted Gothard`s teachings we would still be part of England. The Bible says in Titus 3:10 to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. Gothard has obviously been admonished and rebuked many times. Why is he not rejected and barred from the Body Of Christ?
Because people don't know Jesus Christ. So they easily accept teachings that substitute for Him -- and legalism has always done so.
From Wikipedia
Footsie (footsy, or footsies) is a flirting game where two people touch each other's feet with their feet, under a table or otherwise concealed place, often as a romantic prelude.[1] It is a game played by two or more either as an act of flirtatious body language, or simply for enjoyment. Although footsie is not inherently romantic, the nature of it as playful touching is often done between young lovers as a sign of affection, and most often without discussion.
Nowhere in the bible does it say that a person has to repent in order to forgive them. The bible says we must forgive everyone or else God will not forgive us. Plain and simple. The fact that the person who offended us repents or not is not involved in whether we forgive them.
I wrote the follwing to send to the webmaster but decided to post it here. I have no reason to believe he would trust me to listen to me, and I have trouble addressing him as a brother in light of the failure to repent:
Setting aside all conduct issues, I wonder about the web site’s present affirmation of the Seminar teaching. There has been much thoughtful, biblical and sincere critique of many of the teachings both on the RG website and many other places. I find it inexplicable that not one point of the teaching can be refuted, withdrawn, recanted or corrected. Pleading that you are not a perfect man should be a starting point for reexamining the teaching. You may not have time, but you could, finally, in good faith, in humility, submit the seminars to Dallas Seminary, Southern Baptist Seminary, Trinity Seminary, Westminster Seminary and Wheaton for independent authoritative critique by the people who train most of our evangelical pastors and teacher. You could even allow your friends like Bob Jones critique those critiques. You don’t have to agree with a brother to listen to their critique. But you do have to be very proud to neglect to submit your teaching to the scrutiny of the church and its theologians, and to reject correction as the history clearly establishes. If you have taught any error, even the slightest, you should be willing to free your followers from that error.
But why bother.
BG has been told by many that his teachings are heresy. Books have been written. People have appealed to him. He has simply hardened his heart and dug deeper trenches. My real concern as a pastor is that, as bad as the sexual grooming sins are, that the false teachings are second in importance in the minds of many. In fact, I sometimes wonder if some who agree that BG is a sick person nevertheless think his teachings are not that bad. Bill Gothard is a legalistic heretic who has done unspoken damage to thousands. I wish he would have the guts, the backbone, and the integrity, to come out from under his rock and publicly debate someone about his teachings. He would be exposed in the first five minutes by anyone who grasps the true gospel of grace in Jesus Christ. But I'm sure he would either plead old age or say that he has no intention of answering a fool according to his folly.
Thank you David;Whenever you call attention to Gothard's categorical lies,the onus is seldom displaced by anyone feeling he has ulterior motives;this coming from the so called objective,unbiased protestant camp.Only a few protestants seem to want to take his theology for what it is:absolute total heresy.Even as recent as 2000,John Bevere wrote a "Gothardish"book entitled"Undercover",and got many good reviews.The book espouses making obedience absolutely necessary for the propigation of one's spiritual life,to the totally unquestioned position of the smiling tyrant behind the contrived self effacement of his universally acclaimed power.Once this movement is accepted,comes the descent down that slippery slope.Natural man in his adamic nature venerated by mere slaves of his power,to be subjugated to any of his whims;bludgeoning decrees,to be turned into automatons.If I or anyone else gets this authority,the results will be the same,no matter if I make my mind up I won't be like the rest;a glorification of false fallen and pagan authority.Now comes the stripping away,the reducing of what at one time could have been a sincere faith,turned into a fallen rationalism,[for legalism demands no faith],indeed it takes more faith for us sinners to believe in grace,than Gothard's qualifying formulistic,supramoral principles,heightened by the deceptive hype and psych he guaranteed for anyone slowly descending into the valley of dead works.I wish someone would debate him for the sake of the voices he supressed,and souls he exploited.How about a woman?Now we're getting somewhere....
Daniel,
So many of the girls were giving themselves charlie horses trying to hide there feet from bg when he did this to them. I personally do about anything to avoid a charlie horse. If "footsie" really is an accurate definition of the "game" that all these gals played right along with bg, then where the charlie horses they were giving themselves in "playing" it a result of flirting right back or simply for pleasure?!?!?!?
^^^^^^^"Footsie" "Is a flirting game where two people touch each others' feet with their feet", & "It is a game played by two or more either as an act of flirtatious body language, or simply for enjoyment"
Daniel thank-you for illuminating the fact that initiating a "game" of "footsie" is the wrong name for what bg often did under tables & in back of cars.
My point was that he said he never touched a girl in a sensual way, but he admitted to "touching feet." Everyone knows that "footsie" is a way of flirting and is never appropriate in boss/employee relationship. For him to categorically deny this type of behavior after admitting to it is really bogus.
His attitude is "I was falsely accused, so I used the opportunity to write three more books. My biggest fault is that there is not enough of me to go around. Screw you."
on the new BG website---
1. Renewing commitment to meditation
2. Rewards of meditation
3. Meditation accountability
Is this a Christian or hindu/buddist website? Those religions are big on meditation.
I read where Oprah meditates early in the morning and she says all her wealth is the reward of that meditation. (Note what #2 says)
.
On BG's site as it is now, under the section called "An 'Intreaty,'" is he saying that he has been defamed?
Basically that is what he is saying. One of the traits of someone who is self-obsessed to the point to utter blindness is that they will always make a martyr out of themselves.
I think he was trying to say that his concern was for reputation of Christ but what he wrote was about himself. He is quite disconnected from himself and reality. My question for you David is why more pastors like yourself didn't object to the things being taught when he was starting out in the 60_70s?
FYI, I personally objected loud and clear all during the 1970's and 1980's -- including well before the scandal, on the basis of his teaching. I called him exactly what he was then, and is now: A legalistic heretic teaching ANOTHER GOSPEL. But I was much younger then, and even as a pastor easily dismissed by those who thought they knew better. I was branded, kicked about, and made out to be a rebellious fool. But I did, however, get some people to see, although most would not listen. The refusal of the Gothardites to open their eyes was exactly the same then as today. Letters were even written to Gothard himself, which were ignored. The point is, Bill Gothard has been approached, corrected, admonished, and faced with his error virtually right from the start. There WERE pastors who objected -- but no internet to document it. Just letters. Read, "A Matter of Basic Principles," and you will see what I mean. BG got his power from the many who were as blind as he is blind. He simply tightened his circle and cut off those who disagreed with him, just as any cult leader does. All of this is why his heart is hardened today -- he has already heard it all and dug his trenches deeper. He has HEARD the Truth and refused it. Indeed, look at IBLP today -- they have admitted BG sinned. But they do not admit he teaches error. Thus,he is all over their website, and his false teachings continue to be promoted and celebrated -- even in light of all the protest through sites like this one. The sexual misconduct allegations were all brought out in 1980 or so, as is documented on this site. So even those are not new -- although I'm sure BG never expected for them to be brought into the light all the more in this digital media age. The fact is, BG gets his influence and power from those who support him and thus, they share in his sin, even if ignorantly. And as long as he has even a few deluded souls, he will have a ministry and a following. This is simply a terrible reality today in the Body of Christ -- there is no knowledge of Jesus, and in many cases, people simply do not care until things hurt them personally. Something to stay in continual prayer about.
Hey David,way to go!I was one of the gullible,falling over the big names, the endorsements decreed by established leaders;who was I to question their attainments their qualifications their perspectives,seeing what I in my naiveness and vulnerability just did not in my simple mind; could not see.Charles Stanley was one of them,he has a book out now called "Knowing God".He was one of the supressors of the sex scandal back in 1980.Too many got on the bandwagon of let's go and make this guy the king,and we'll look the other way, sweep underneath the rug,turn a blind eye.Now comes the afterward when the cost for doing this seems to be a little uncomfortable.Of course the big names that endorsed him back then,will use excuses,denials,disclaiming some unknown factor when pride is involved.
The new Bill Gothard site looks different than depicted on this page.
The current new web site is a redo once again of the frames you see originally discussed here. Question to the moderators, has there been any confirmation of the new pro Bill testimonies on the new web site? The reason I ask is that some of these stories do not add up, especially Bettina. Her story does not add up at all. I find it very hard to believe that a judge made Bill her personal guardian.
Our team has not been in direct contact with Bettina. However we are aware of at least one other woman who did not give Bill permission to publish her story and asked him to remove it the same day he published it, but he has not done so yet.
The fact that Bill may not have asked permission of all these women to share their pictures and stories on the Internet shows a tragic lack of respect and sense of entitlement.
Thank-you for the reply. Her story is very curious and I am wondering if the basic story line can be verified and if there are those on RG can verify some of it. Falling asleep on his couch as she is claiming is beyond appropriate and is more supportive of all the testimonies of the victims here, stating with Ruth. It doesn't add up.
Rob, my testimony is truth. IBLP was asked to come to Indy to help, one way being with youth. I was a ward of the state, going to ITC, Bill Gothard became my legal guardian. Others came after, but having parents, the ministry was entrusted with them but not their legal guardian. I spent alot of time with Mr. Gothard, a few times, reading, I fell asleep on the couch while he was dictating letters or making phone calls. I have nothing to hide and would not lie to defend anyone.
Thank-you for your reply which revealss a number of thing I don't think you realize. First you coming on here demonstrates that either Bill or those close to him are actively monitoring this site. Secondly, RG does allow contrary points of views, something Bill's web site has accused RG of. Thirdly, you testimony states that the women on here and in other places are lying and you know the real Bill. Sorry, but the overwhelming testimony of others is to the contrary. I understand your feelings of loyalty considering your childhood and what you feel Bill has done for you but you need to see that having some judge assign a single bachelor running a million dollar ministry as you guardian because he thinks you have bright eyes and are pretty is the height of manipulation and is totally inappropriate. Your so called pilot leadership seems to according to you in helping Bill open mail. I am not sure who that is really helping you with your kind of childhood. That fact that you are with him so long that you even fall asleep in his office demonstrates the inappropriateness of your situation. Maybe your gratefulnees has blinded you to this but the fact that Bill flattered you again with "I spent more time with you than anyone else" shows continued manipulation of your feelings of loyalty to Bill. In that I feel sorry for you.
Rob, let me start by saying I really don't want your pity, my life is my life and I wouldn't be me without it all. Also, it was a friend that pointed me to this thread telling me that someone was questioning my truthfulness and as far as I know they don't have anything to do with Mr. Gothard anymore. How much he monitors this site, I have no clue, if he does at all. I do have some loyalty to Mr. Gothard, however as I said, we haven't always seen eye to eye and there are things I will never agree with him on, I am not blindly defending him and the only issue I am defending him on is his sexual inappropriateness. Of course I don't want to call anyone a liar, but realize that I can't have it both ways, however, my testimony is mine and only mine. Sexual predators are not usually discerning and aren't able to control themselves. I don't understand how a sexual predator, which is what a man is whom is touching 60+ women, wouldn't have been, in any way, sexually inappropriate with me given the amount of time spent together, to me that just doesn't make sense. With my time with IBLP I did several things, I attended "school", I traveled giving my testimony, I worked in the kitchen and I worked in the publications department, I didn't just open mail. I understand that this is a difficult issue and to be quite honest, I have no intention of going back and forth about it or my testimony, however know that though I have some gratefulness toward Mr. Gothard, and others, I am not blind nor would I ever defend such deplorable behavior, simply out of loyalty. All the best to you.
Bettina, thanks for clarifying some things. This stood out when I read your testimony:
"Bill Gothard is many things but sexually inappropriate is not one of them!"
As I understand your testimony, you came in through the court system. And your case differs from the testimonies here in one respect - I'm not sure of any sexual harrassment/grooming testimony on this website where it's the case that they were under the court system with Bill as their legal guardian. If I'm correct, then there was a LOT more pressure on Bill to behave himself, because in your case, he was much more vulnerable and accountable. Hence, when you say he isn't sexually inappropriate, you have to limit that statement to yourself only. And you have differing circumstances where I would think he'd know to be much more cautious.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Did any other situation come in through the court system where Bill was appointed legal guardianship that relates to one or more of the abuse testimonies here? If I'm correct, that pretty much says why he didn't misbehave toward you.
And you by now know he admitted on the internet to the footsie games others accused him of. And that Gary Smalley found him years ago with one of the institute young women sitting on his lap, in "sheer" night clothes. How then can you say, unequivocally that, "Bill Gothard is many things but sexually inappropriate is not one of them!" ??? To you, maybe not, but many others say differently. You did not come out and say it, but you implied by that statement I quoted that they are lying.
I believe your testimony. I believe Bill when he admitted to the footsie games (not his wording, but that was what he meant). I believe Gary Smalley who reminded Bill he came in his room one night and found a young woman in her nighty on Bill's lap.
I think it would be appropriate for you to change that one line to this (all caps for emphasis): "Bill Gothard is many things but sexually inappropriate TO ME is not one of them!"
That would be more in keeping with the truth, I believe, given Bill's confession to part of what the women accused him of, and Gary Smalley's testimony.
Thanks Lynn for your kindness and as I've stated a few times, my testimony is only my story, I supposed the "to me" was applied, however, predators aren't that discerning and if I ever picked up anything from him, it was how asexual he was. I don't believe any of those accusing him were sent through the system or that either the ministry or Mr.Gothard was their guardian, so yes we differ there, however, I did work with him from the ages of 18-19 at HQ, with absolutely no parental or state supervision. To be honest, I'm not sure what else to say. If the women feel that violated, they need to hire an attorney, if Mr. Gothard feels that libel or slander has taken place he should hire an attorney and if IBLP feels they need to handle either of the former then they should hire an attorney, because I don't understand what all of the going back and forth, he said she said, is really going to do other than hurt perception of Christians.
My understanding is they would rather work through mediation of some kind. Thank you for your perspective. This must be hard, and we all really need to pray for one another. I saw a testimony from a Linda on the same site where you have your testimony, and wonder if this is the same person. Not asking for confirmation or denial, but you will note people have been trying to deal with Bill on these issues and have gotten the runaround for years: http://midwestoutreach.org/open-letter-to-bill-gothard-march-25-2006/
Lynn, I am sorry I don't know if they are the same but I noticed she worked with the ministry until 1980, I was born in 1979. I am sorry you, and others, feel like the run around has been given. I would suggest emailing him at [email protected]
They are different Lindas. Linda Taylor passed away in 2014.
Making a new thread here: Bettina and Jay, thanks. I have not been given the runaround so I will leave it to others to keep dealing with Bill. My personal interest is on account of the time, money, mental, emotional, and behavioral investment made in IBLP. There were some spiritual benefits, but on balance the teaching misuses Scripture to make very legalistic teaching, which I have unlearned some time ago. Jay, thanks. I think I read that about Linda Taylor, but forgot. She, Ruth Gabriel, and countless others, including my father, are with the Lord in paradise now, where all believers are headed. May we consider that day, and make our comments in light of that promise. I confess to have fallen short many times.
I appreciate Bettina's courage and candor in sharing about her story here. It can be scary to comment on a blog when you represent a minority opinion, even more so when you are not anonymous. It is good for people to be given space and consideration to tell their own stories.
Ditto Matthew's comment.
I find it a bit humorous that the women vouching for him and saying that he never touched him are not really his type anyway. My younger sister however pretty much fits the description of the young women he liked working for him, and he handpicked her to work for him at Headquarters. I hope to God that he never laid hands on her because if he did....let's just say I'm very protective of my sisters.
Well, what has your sister said about her time working with "Bill"?