In the early days of ATI (Advanced Training Institute), families with a student in college were denied enrollment. While the official policy changed early on in the program, the philosophy of discouraging higher education continues to this day. The reasons given are varied, but the bottom line is clear: Students frequently were not encouraged or permitted to attend college. Instead, they spent the typical college years serving in various IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles) locations or attending “apprenticeship opportunities” that were advertised as a means of jump-starting a career. A number of students have shared how this teaching against college has affected their education and careers. This two-part series features a few of their stories:
When I graduated from high school, I would have been offered scholarships based on my ACT score if my GPA had been high enough. It probably was high enough; I just didn’t have the documentation to prove it. I passed the ACT with flying colors mostly by acing the English part; I didn’t do all that well on the math. I also had a relative who would have helped me pay for college, but I was totally drinking the kool-aid and had no desire to go. I still have zero college in spite of the fact that I am constantly learning or studying one thing or another. At age 38, I’m working a job that pays just barely over minimum wage. – E.C.
I was pretty much told the whole “college is evil and sin” blah blah blah. It has been an extreme detriment in finding a job in the past. I have been doing CLEP tests to work towards my degree, but I was turned down for a lot of jobs that I probably would have been hired for if I had a degree. By God’s grace, I was hired by the Border Patrol without a degree. But if I want to transfer to another agency ever, it will be difficult without a degree. Turns out that “character” is not on the federal job questionnaires… Or on most job applications. – B.D.
I’m definitely behind. I didn’t start college for 3 years after graduating from high school, and I wasn’t even allowed to work during that time (more than teaching a small handful of piano students a week), so it’s not like I had been able to save a lot of money leading up to college. Once I started, it took me 6 years to finish, due to severe illnesses that I largely blame ATI for (stress reactions due to ATI problems). I could be graduating with my Ph.D. in May. Instead, I’m just starting the second year of my Master’s, and I’ll be at LEAST 36 by the time I get my Ph.D. and start my career. – K.R.
I delayed going to college for 7 years, because, honestly, I wanted to drink the kool-aid that said I would be married with kids and my husband would take care of me. It was 7 years before I woke up and realized that I needed to take care of myself. I was so scared that first night of classes. I remember thinking that I shouldn’t be here and that this is not God’s plan for my life. Now almost 7 years later I am in school for my Master’s, and I think that that first step was the most important step of my life. I have met great friends because of school, I have gained a lot of self confidence…and the list goes on and on. It was truly the best decision of my life. – G.J.
To me this is the worst effect on my life. The funny thing is, I would probably choose to be a full-time, stay-at-home mom if I had been able to finish college at a more appropriate time of life. And I would probably even be having more kids, too. Instead I get to be a college student and mom at the same time–and it’s hard. Also, it’s screwy to expect women to be homeschool teachers and then refuse them any education. I was told after sixth grade that I wasn’t smart enough to do math and didn’t need it anyway, being a girl. – M.B.
I think my parents didn’t buy into the “college is evil” thing as much as other families did; they just wanted me to get some work experience before I pursued college. Make sure I could actually get up and make it to work in the morning, hold down a job, manage my money, etc. I do see some negative effects to waiting though. If I had gone to college right after graduating, I still would have had to do some remedial work to make up for what homeschooling didn’t (math, chem, bio, physics, etc.), but I would probably have had a B.A. in 5 years or so, and be that much further ahead now. As it is, I have a load of medical and construction, as well as some management experience, and I hold one professional medical license, but still no degree. – M.B.
An “adopted grandpa” asked if he could set up a college fund for me. “In faith” I told him no, because I was never going to college. I eventually did go (I was the age of most of the senior class when I was a freshman). I had to work hard to catch up on some academics I had missed. Overall it was a great experience but I continue to deal with the financial implications of having had no college fund. – M.S.
I have way more debt now than if I had gone at 18. I may have gotten help at that time. Not much is out there when you are in your 30’s. Also, financially as a single woman, I would have been better able to provide for myself if I had gotten my degree at an earlier age. Now I am having to find a job and pay off the loans, all while maintaining a home for myself. – R.J.
(Click here to continue with Part 2)
"The funny thing is, I would probably choose to be a full-time stay-at-home mom if I had been able to finish college at a more appropriate time of life." Our parents were warned that if they let their daughters go to college, we would abandon Home and Family and become selfish and unGodly. Fact is, many women choose to stay home with their children despite a degree and a career. I even once read an article in a mainstream magazine about how a woman might do better to settle for "second best" in her career so she can concentrate more on her family. All the no-college teaching does is make it harder for young people to get a footing in their adult lives.
A recent study shows (indirectly) that IBLP's teachings hinder the family unit. Specifically, the study indicates that folks who go to college are more likely to get and stay married. Here are some links: http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/10/06/Pew.reversal.college.marriage.gap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/21/opinion/wilcox-marriage-women/index.html
Of course, this in no way means that a great marriage is limited to those who go to college! But why not give children every advantage to succeed?
Thanks, Jay, for that comment. It encouraged me! And thanks to all those who contributed to this article. The "don't get higher education" mantra is/has been the biggest hinderance to me. I did get an AA in Computer Science a few years after HS, but with the reasoning that I would only be using it for "ministry" and not a secular job. Now at 30+ (and single) I have been doing volunteer/faith based work the last 8 or so yrs. It's all been a pretty good experience, but I have no confidence in my skills for the "real world". So now I am seriously considering a BA in Computer Science.
Go for it, Michelle. Everything you are called to do in the "secular" world IS ministry, and He who calls you is faithful and will do it (1 Thess. 5:24).
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6
Thank you for your comment. It nearly mirrors my own experience. (See my comment below). I too have been involved with volunteer/faith-based work while contemplating an advanced degree in Computer Science or a career change.
I repeatedly heard the mantra that a college degree would not help me get a job or keep a job. I work in a technical field and in fact, my degree (which I eventually did get after leaving ATI) did help prepare me for my job. I have been involved interviewing people who thought that a degree was unimportant. But when I ask them basic questions about the underlying theory behind current technology, I have found that their lack of education does indeed show up.
This is exactly what Mr. Gothard verbally repeatedly promised would not happen. He was mistaken and he has misled and is misleading vulnerable young people and there is a real cost. It is so frustrating to me how deeply I trusted Gothard and how badly misled I was. Trusting him with career advice is like trusting Bernie Madoff with your finances: he's a proven bad source of advice.
I heard the same mantra. It was assumed that young people who went to college would "wash out" and have their infantile faith obliterated by arrogant professors spouting ungodly philosophies.
When I finally did start working on my degree, I found that this seldom was the case. And while yes, there were some professors that didn't share my worldview, more often than not they were more than happy to give me full credit for expressing my worldview - provided I adhered to the terms of the assignment and could articulate my viewpoint well.
Incidentally, I'm also a graduate of one of IBLP's early flirtations with higher education: Oak Brook College of Law. While I have no issues with the quality of education I received through that program, the sad fact remains that I'm ineligible to practice law in the state in which I reside (Ohio) because such an education doesn't meet the statutory requirements for bar admission in most states.
Obviously that was disclosed to us at the outset of the program, but I think we viewed the future with Pollyanna-ish lenses (as IBLP conditioned us to do) that our Godly character and bright shining eyes would pave the way and the laws would be changed before we graduated or shortly thereafter. I've been out for almost 13 years and that hasn't happened. I think I gave it 5 years before I gave up and decided to take the conventional education path, ultimately earning both my bachelor of science and MBA.
Yes I have some student loan debt, but my compensation has increased dramatically, and my faith remains intact.
I've heard that term "wash out" before at church and I've always been bothered by it. One cannot "wash out" with Christ. Was this term used frequently in ATI cirlces?
Honestly? I don't recall if that's how they phrased it or if that is my interpretation of it. ATI attracted folks from a wide variety of theological backgrounds and I certainly met a number of folks within ATI who did not believe in eternal security (and probably an equal number of folks who did).
That being said, ATI definitely sowed fear among parents that their children, if not raised appropriately (i.e., according to the standards IBLP taught) were at a heightened risk to be carried away by worldly philosophies (and implicitly, could lose the faith these parents worked so hard to instill).
As I've transitioned into adulthood (I was 16 when my family enrolled in ATI and I'm nearly 38), one thing that has struck me about our ATI experience is how motivation always seemed to come from fear, not faith. We were given anecdote after anecdote as examples of horrible things that happened to people who failed to follow some principle or standard. I don't remember much exhortation from ATI in terms of God being able to keep you from falling (or to pick you up and redeem you if you stumbled).
It took the latter for me to REALLY understand how much God loved me because He chose to, and not because of commitments I made to live by certain standards (which were impossible to keep).
And that's when Scripture about our righteousness being like filthy rags and Scripture about His burden being easy and His yoke being light began to really resonate with me.
Whether you choose to call that unmerited favor grace (which I do) or something else, the fact remains that it IS an integral part of God's character - though I never would have known it from my time in ATI.
Well said, Ryan! Much of what we were taught came from a fear-based relationship with God, though it wasn't acknowledged as such in those terms. But Mr. Gothard even wrote in some of his curriculum that he encouraged people to make so many vows because people would keep their vows out of fear of God's punishment if they broke them. So the whole emphasis on vows was definitely fear-based, not love-based towards God.
"It was assumed that young people who went to college would "wash out" and have their infantile faith obliterated by arrogant professors spouting ungodly philosophies."
Maybe they were just afraid that if we went to college we could realize there was a whole new world out there and that we had been "brainwashed" in our small circle. :-)
I agree completely with the above comments about fear - so well said.
I felt a vivid reminder of that fear again last week when I looked through the "How to make an appeal" document. On page 4, the umbrella diagram, it is asserted that "God sent ['failures and deficiencies in our humans authorities'] for the purpose of changing wrong attitudes." And if you "get out from under their authority" (stepping out from under the umbrella) then you are exposed to Satan's destruction. Personally, I think the diagram implies that God himself is directing Satan to send his attacks against you but that may not be a fair reading of it.
Practical implication: no matter how badly your parent is attacking your soul, it is sent from God because of your wrong attitudes, and if you dare step away from that mistreatment then all hell will break loose in attacking and destroying your soul.
That is using manipulative fear to control someone. It worked on me until I after I finally left home at age 21.
I lived in fear that even though I felt like a big failure, I would be an even worse failure if I dared to step up and begin living my own life. I thought that this fear was how God wanted me to be motivated. No wonder it's still hard sometimes to feel emotionally close to Him!
I still remember being blown away about five years ago when a friend quietly commented in prayer, "We love you, God." I mean I had talked about love of God plenty, but actually feeling love for God...wow. Love casts out fear. I'll say it again: Love casts out fear!
I realize this is moving away from the issue of "washing out" but just thinking about this touches a button with me. It was literally necessary for me to walk away from the fear of Gothardism before I could learn to love God and rest in being loved by him. And I didn't wash out, I am more spiritually engaged in loving God and others, and serving God and others, than ever.
I think maybe this is what you are looking for? :)
1 John 5 v 18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; THE SON OF GOD KEEPS THEM SAFE, and the evil one cannot harm them.
Then how would you explain Eph. 6:1-3, "Children obey your parents...that it may go well with you." Certainly there is the implication that things may not go well with you if you disobey. Fear is not always a bad motivator. In this case, it is used to motivate us to obedience. Is that bad? God used fear all of the time to motivate His people to obedience. He used the threat of plagues, impending destruction, and sickness to turn His people to Himself.
S:
Ephesians 6:3 NLT
If you honor your father and mother, "things will go well for you, and you will have a long life on the earth."
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The promise you mentioned is for honoring our parents, not for children obeying their parents. There is a difference.
You have an interesting point. I'm no theologian, but weren't all of those examples under the old covenant? Under the new covenant, we're told we can approach God's throne "with boldness" (Heb. 4:16). We're also told that there is "no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love" (1 John 4:18). So maybe the means God uses to woo with His people changed under the new covenant? Again, I'm no theologian, and I've certainly not done any sort of exhaustive study on the issue (nor do I believe that this is the appropriate forum for such).
It's interesting that you brought up Ephesians 6:1-3. No surprise that we heard "Children obey your parents . . ." all the time when I was in ATI. But, it never seemed to be accompanied by Ephesians 6:4, where parents are exhorted not to exasperate their children (and you didn't mention it either).
I think the two work in tandem. We should honor our parents. Our parents should be careful to exercise their authority with sensitivity. Emphasize one without the other and it's bound to bring bring heartache and broken relationships. It did in my family. However, the most extreme example I've ever heard of is outlined in this article:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/once-a-child-always-a-child/
I have been thinking a lot about your answer. Fear(justified by BG principles)was certainly the motivating factor in my home. I think I have been justifying it in my mind.
S: That is not what those verses say. A "..." does not give you license to leave out what you want. You're pulling a BG.
Try actually posting the verses: 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3 “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”
Sorry, I really wasn't trying to pull a BG. How did that change the meaning to you? I was just trying to say that fear wasn't always a bad motivator. I felt like verse 3 could imply that disobedience would bring bad consequences. Do you think differently?
Yes, S, I think verse 3 is talking about consequences for not honoring parents. Vs 3 is not talking about obedience. That is verse one, it is directed to children (not adults), and does not contain a consequence in that verse
S, sounds like you are thinking things through.
If I could respectfully point something out, I would note that when Paul quotes from the Law there, he says it's the first commandment with a *promise*, not the first commandment with a threat (plagues, impending destruction, and sickness are not mentioned in any way in context).
God did use the prophets to yell at his people when they got deaf. This was more of a last resort than status quo in God's way of reaching out to them. And there were indeed times when God allowed his people to go through suffering to pull them back to him. Eventually Jesus *became* a curse to pay for our sin.
But as you read through the New Testament, the notion of fear as a motivator is a rare find. Hebrews talks about the idea of "rest" a lot (Hebrews might be the one place you could see fear as a motivation, in the warning passages). The epistles talk a lot about taking the old stuff off and putting the new stuff on, or about fruit of the flesh vs. fruit of the Spirit, or related concepts. John 15 talks about abiding, which is consistent with the gospels and epistles both.
If I read Galatians properly (and this is a well-attested way to read it) then Paul is making the case that living in sexual sin, living a divisive life, or living under the Law would all equally mean living in the flesh; what we are supposed to do is to "keep in step with the Spirit."
Paul says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
Is there such a thing as a healthy fear? Sure, there seems to be. But as I read the New Testament I see the ideal being a peaceful life that is lived in confidence and love. I see the command to love God and to love others being repeated a lot. The fear I experienced in my home growing up and the fear I experienced in Gothardism was not from God, nor was it a help in living the Christian life. It was a hindrance for me personally.
I'll close this too-long comment with this: check out 1 John 4:13-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:13-19&version=NLT) "If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love."
That would be good news. Thank you for your response.
You can't simply throw out all the OT references about fear because we are under the new covenant. The fear of the Lord is still the beginnig of wisdom. However, there is a difference between developing fear and scaring. I think a lot of BG tactics are scare tactics rather than a fear of God. I relate it to my little ones at home. They may "fear" dad, but are they scared of me? No, they know I love them and take care of them - I would die for them ... just like Christ died for us. The bottom line is that there are consequences to sin, some worse than others. been there, done that :)
S:
Romans 8:15 NLT
So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, "Abba, Father."
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This is what Jesus has done for us. It is truly Good News!
How did this ever make sense? We were supposed to be able to avoid credentials, spend our young adult years volunteering, then somehow be able to marry and provide for as many children as God sent on a single income without ever going into debt. Right. And we weren't supposed to wonder about how this was actually going to work out because "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, what God has prepared for those who love him." (Which, just maybe, is talking about Heaven, not ignoring prudent planning in this life?)
And the fact that there were a few people who were able to make it work was enough to convince the rest of us that we had just not quite measured up to true godliness.
My dad was a BG skeptic the whole time we were in ATI and one of the things he never bought into was the whole idea of no college, especially for girls. He actually tried to get me to go to college after I graduated, but I was the one who was against it. A couple of years (and a lot of eye-opening experiences) later, I did end up going and getting my teaching degree. I taught for a couple of years while my husband was in Bible school, but once we had children, I stopped and am now a happy, stay-at-home mom.
I'm from the early days of ATI and in those days college students were leaving colleges and returning home, and high school students (like me) were told that grades and even high school diplomas were unnecessary-- all part of the "world's" system. So I never even received a high school diploma, which was sad and very depressing.
At age 26, (after doing all the wonderful volunteer stuff) I finally got the courage along with two younger siblings to sign up for GED classes. Getting my GED changed my life and from there I struggled to earn an AAS degree, then worked for a while, and later returned for my BA degree. Even so, I found it difficult to make good career choices because I was afraid of being tainted by the world's philosophies. So avoiding philosophy, psychology, sociology, and most of the arts, I settled on the safety of computer science.
Now, as I'm entering my forties and am looking at a possible career change, I still struggle with career choices. I find it extremely difficult to identify my God-given passions and dreams. It's as if they were extinguished long ago. We were supposed to be arrows that would hit the mark, but I feel that most of us were never launched. To quote from Michelle earlier, 'The "don't get higher education" mantra is/has been the biggest hinderance to me.' (Oddly enough, she went for the degree in computer science too! :-)
I thank God for the many ways he blessed my career in computer science, and I thank God that I found Recovering Grace at this crossroad in my career. It is His grace that will enable me to start anew and learn to dream creatively again.
My parents were originally firm supporters of college. All of the kids in my family either have gone or are preparing to go for higher education. A vivid memory for me, though, comes from the summer between my junior and senior years. My dad informed me that, if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't allow his daughters to go to college. His reasons? 1) It fosters an independent spirit, which doesn't prepare them to submit to their husbands. 2) It doesn't allow for a truly good courtship scenario. 3) The education could be obtained either closer to home or through life experience. He shared this information with me in the context of concerns over not having enough control over my relationship.
And there is the heart of the matter, isn't it?
Wow!!! Carolynn! That is a very unhealthy desire for control over your adult life!
I am new to this website, and came acrossed it looking up homeschooling curriculm for ATI. I began in ATI at the age of five (1987) and my family used the wisdom booklets along with sing spell read and write, abeka, bob jones link via tv in high school. I attended the basic and advanced seminars around the ages of 10 and 12, and worked in the children's workshop at other seminars through the next couple of years. My parents never bought into the no higher education, I began at the university of Delaware at the age of 17,and had 12 credits before starting my real freshman year in 2000. I graduated in 2004 with my BA. I am really surprised reading this, as I have come full circle and am looking to pick the curriculm to use in our first year of homeschool my oldest of three. My family followed the Bible and I guess we didn't add to it all these other beliefs/fears. Good solid Bible teaching along with academics is what I looking for, maybe along the line of clasical. I value a lot of the principles and character I learned, but I still live very much in the grace of Jesus. Homeschool curriculm suggestions?
Elisabeth, One of the best sources for classical education information is Veritas Press. Tapestry of Grace has an excellent history program that can be used with multiple ages; Apologia has an excellent science program that can be used with multiple ages; we use Alpha Omega for language arts and math. We have been using these for several years and are very pleased with them. Hope this helps!
I have used Connections Academy and also I am currently using a charter school in our area. I am very pleased with both!! They are both free, with free curriculum, includes a teacher to contact, and are funded by the state. So there isn't any Christianity in them at all. And then I am free to teach my kids about God. I simply leave out anything like "billions of years ago" that I want. The teachers are great and extremely helpful!!! And you can rest assured that your child is going to have the same academics as the kids in their age group. I highly recommend either.
If you like the unit study concept - ATI was a very incomplete & biased unit study approach - then KONOS is the best of the best. You still need to supplement with math & phonics, but everything else you need for K-8th is in 3 teacher books, $110 each. There is some teacher prep involved but They have a high school curriculum as well but my kids aren't that old yet so I'm not familiar with that part of it. KONOS is Christian, and is character-based.
Unit studies are especially good for active kids and/or kids who learn best with hands-on & experiential learning, although all types of learners will benefit from that type of teaching.
You've gotten some good curriculum suggestions here. I'm currently in my tenth year of homeschooling my sons, and we've used a variety of curricula. One thing I would encourage you to do is to find what works for your child. Sometimes what works for one kid doesn't work for another. Or a great curriculum just doesn't "click" for your child's learning style. It's trial and error -- which is one reason I'm a big advocate of buying used texts. And just have books books books everywhere. It amazes me how often my sons, who "hate" to read, will see a book on one of my shelves and run off with it.
Some of my favourites:
Math-It and Professor B for early math skills.
The Life of Fred and Saxon Math for upper grade math skills.
Winston Grammar, Victory Drill, and The Writing Road to Reading for grammar and early reading skills.
Listen My Children for listening skills.
Polished Cornerstones and Plants Grown Up (by Doorposts) for life skills and discipleship training.
I LOVE The Robinson Curriculum for composition, literature, history, science, and most other subjects from early elementary through high school. If you do it the way Dr. Robinson recommends, your child really will get a first-rate, well-rounded education and you won't have much more than supervisory and grading work after your child learns phonics and basic math facts. This makes it a great choice for single parents. It's a little pricey, but it comes with ALL the texts on CD for you to print as you need (well, except the Saxon math books). And you will need to buy a good printer and a lot of paper, but it's still cheaper than buying scads of textbooks. All told, the disks and the duplexing printer cost me about $500, and I use about two cases of paper (~$60) and one printer cartridge (~$100) a year, so that works out to about $202 a year for 12 years of schooling. Which is not bad for everything except the math books.
We use "The Well-Trained Mind" and recommend it highly. It is the master plan that you supplement with other curricula. My wife was doing a lot of A Beka with our son until recently. He is now in 7th grade and it wasn't working too well for him; almost no A Beka this year. For math it is now Math-U-See and he loves it.
Thanks I'll read up on some of these suggestions.
As a public school teacher for over 27 years, let me pass on this little bit of advice for homeschoolers....
DO NOT NEGLECT THE ARTS- (art, drama, music, dancing, choir)---all of these help develop the body, mind and brain to where it is easier to learn math, reading and writing.
I also taught higher order thinking skills for several years and that helps children to think in all sorts of ways and figure stuff out on their own. (easy to do, just buy puzzle books of all kinds, mystery games, mensa stuff--my students loved it and my ability to do math soared as I was always bad at math!) This class was canceled because the higher ups thought the kids needed more keyboard skills. (BAH!)
Too bad public schools put fine arts and thinking on your own at the very bottom of the learning pyramid!
Your comment about the arts reminds me of this TED Talk