...There is an influential group of seven young men who decided to invest their twenties in advancing their career. They calculated that if they saved $1,000 a year for seven years, it would be worth more at retirement than if they waited seven years and then saved $7,000 a year for the rest of their career. They met together and decided they would each put off marriage and family until they were twenty-eight to focus single-mindedly on business for that time. They were willing to delay whatever they wanted now, in order to have the gain of financial reward.
Now, these men are pretty smart. If they were willing to do this for financial gain, what would happen if young people today would do this to advance God’s Kingdom? What if a very committed group of young people were to put off marriage and money so that saving health could be for every nation? Young people have an energy and drive that allows them to accomplish much and attract people to listen. Can you imagine the impact you have when you walk into a room in Romania with me today and stand in front of foreign leaders, all expenses paid, and make them the first character nation? All because you just set aside a certain number of years dedicated to single service for God!
Look at Daniel and Joseph: look how much they accomplished while keeping a single focus. Paul encouraged young people to wait for marriage because of their times. This is also an urgent time. God wants to do great things and bring many people to Himself. There are world leaders who are looking to young people like you for hope. I get calls every day from Russia, Romania, Taiwan, and even Mongolia asking for more young people raised in our program to come and serve. How many of you right now would be willing to make a vow and commit to singleness for three, seven, or even more years, like I have done? I don't think I'll get married for another ten years yet. God will direct you what you should give to Him. Now, while every head is bowed and eye is closed, please raise your hand up and then down if you've made this commitment. Praise God. Amen. Amen....
…The above memory (albeit a bit foggy with the years) is a typical example of how Mr. Gothard spoke to apprenticeship students at various IBLP and ATI (Institute in Basic Life Principles and Advanced Training Institute) functions I attended.
One of the effects of this type of spiritual manipulation was that I began to have unrealistic expectations of myself. Mr. Gothard’s teachings made me think that if I made all the right vows and commitments, I would be able to change the whole world. I began believing that if I just modeled the kind of life that God wanted, the world around me would decide to follow God’s ways just like I did. And that would be totally awesome!
The problem with this way of thinking was that I, and most of the students around me, had no understanding of the world or any preparation for living in it. Most of us were kept isolated from real life and its issues and problems. We were taught only to study “the truth”; we were never to be exposed to “lies” (opposing viewpoints). When World Magazine’s Marvin Olasky was invited to speak at Knoxville one year, he told us that if we were ever to be able to engage our culture for good, we had to know something about it. Needless to say, the rest of that week Mr. Gothard and others spent a lot of time doing “damage control.” This type of cultural isolation led to an inability to reason and make decisions, as well as a lack of emotional awareness or ability to regulate or respond to emotions in a healthy way.
I found out years later that our parents often didn’t know what we were being taught in these apprenticeship sessions. In parent sessions, they were always taught a more sensible version of what we were taught. My parents were shocked when they found out that I had been encouraged to make drastic commitments to singleness without consulting them first. We had always been told that our parents were our authorities and that they were given by God to protect us. But in these apprenticeship sessions, I do not recall even once being encouraged to go talk to my parents before making a major commitment. Mr. Gothard seemed to assume that our parents would want us making these spiritually binding, life-changing commitments.
One time when Mr. Gothard wanted to present the idea of courtship to a group of parents, he was afraid that they might react to the idea (at the time, it was still a new teaching). So he prefaced it by saying that the parents’ children were so committed to God that they eagerly embraced these concepts and that the young people themselves had insisted that he share it with the parents in spite of his reluctance. He believed this approach would be effective with the parents because no parent would want to be less committed to God than their kids were. And if their kids were excited about serving God in a certain way, then they would be much less likely to share any cautions they might have about it.
This actually resulted on a lot of peer pressure on the parents. If their child wouldn’t make all the commitments and follow all the rules, they were told that their child was “rebellious” or “bitter.” In the IBLP/ATI world, anyone given such a label was discredited and anything they said assumed to be flawed, even if they were just legitimately questioning what they had been taught. The parents of such children were assumed to have somehow failed in their parenting. They were encouraged to put even more restrictions on their “rebellious” children, often even separating them from “bad” influences by shipping them off to one of Mr. Gothard’s many programs. Needless to say, the typical result of this was that children were alienated from their parents. Even if the pressure approach worked, all it really did was force the child to conform outwardly while suppressing their own thoughts and emotions.
I remember hearing Mr. Gothard once say that young people can be “taken farther” than their parents can. In other words, young people are more pliable and more open to “new” ideas, especially if those ideas are packaged with the promise that they would have great impact for God. Mr. Gothard called us “world changers” and other similarly exciting terms. We were told that God would use us to do great things if we would just be totally committed to Him. This type of thinking made it easy for Mr. Gothard to influence us to do things such as courting instead of dating (basically letting parents control our romantic relationships); waiting to court until we were totally ready for marriage (including financially); paying to work, volunteering, or serving for minimum wage at training centers (the main reason for Mr. Gothard promoting single service to his own organization, and incidentally, the reason many young people were not financially prepared for marriage until much later in life); not listening to any unapproved music; girls never wearing pants and guys never wearing jeans; never questioning authority … and many, many other things — some of them so strange that most people have trouble believing this is really what we were taught.
It is ironic that the one who seems to have benefited most from the teaching on single service is Mr. Gothard himself, as he gained lots of free labor (not to mention those who actually paid to be there) to staff his training centers around the world. We were assured time and time again that the character we developed by serving God, our family, and Mr. Gothard, would result in more than enough opportunities to meet our financial needs, but we have not found that to be true. Those of us like me, who are starting our college educations and our careers in our thirties, are now wishing that we hadn’t been so convinced that God would miraculously provide the education and experience we needed while we worked tirelessly at home or at Mr. Gothard’s training centers. Succeeding at life definitely requires experiences and education outside the bubble in which we were so carefully kept.
Mr. Gothard is a master at creating in young people a desire to do great things. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However his methods and ideas are essentially “spiritual shortcuts” that ultimately don’t work. He taught us how to look good on the outside by following numerous rules, as if simply following these “principles” would transform our hearts. In spite of Mr. Gothard’s claim that he is promoting “lasting answers,” he is the master of the quick fix — the magic bullet. Just make a commitment and that will fix everything. If it doesn’t, you probably didn’t do it right or follow all the right steps. Of course you can solve this failure by making another commitment. Spiritual growth seemed to be measured by how many commitments you had made, i.e., how many the rules you were following or standards you were keeping.
I’m thankful now that I’m finally understanding God’s grace and mercy. And in spite of many missed opportunities and years that might have been more effectively used serving God in other ways, I’m thankful that God still has a plan for me.
June 9, 2023
So very true. Having never known life any differently, I went along with whatever I was told to do because disagreeing was "rebellious." If only I had known then. I weep for the years I lost believing the lies.
The idea that questioning the teachings was "rebellious" effectively shut down communication between parents and children. Years later, parents wonder why they never knew what their children were struggling with. It's because we COULDN'T EXPRESS IT. Either our parents reacted badly when we spoke up, or we never even said anything in the first place.
He promised us the world, and when we didn't get it, he says it's our fault.
"He promised us the world, and when we didn't get it, he says it's our fault."
YES. This.
Worrrrrrrd. Yes. If it didn't turn out well, it's because you somehow messed up, or were rebellious. A family member told me (when I mentioned to him that I am not the only ex-ATIer who strongly disagrees with Gothard) that it is dangerous to listen to a bunch of bitter homeschooled kids who don't appreciate what they have.
Yes, Rowena, or what we Don't have. . . Like jobs, job opportunities, college educations, or for some of us, a decent high school education or diploma, any real life experience in the real world. I could go on, but. . .
To that family member, it is what we don't have that bothers us. Not a matter of what we do have.
What do we have?
Oh, yeah, broken vows, or vows and commitments that keep us in bondage.
Sara, you are absolutely right! (I had to resist all caps and multiple exclamation points.) We couldn't talk to our parents because we were dismissed as rebellious for disagreeing. Even as adults.
There was always that "conversation ender." "Godly." We could either do it their way (and Gothard's way) or we were in sin.
I remember these sessions all too well. And for me, there was always the fear that if I DIDN'T raise my hand the person next to me wouldn't hear me shift in my seat and assume I was rebellious and bitter and therefore anything I might say, any question I might raise would be discredited.
It's very difficult to explain the extent of manipulation that Bill Gothard utilized to someone who didn't go through the program, but it enslaved me to fear. Fear of what others thought of me, fear that my caution couldn't possibly be right, fear that God would not bless me if I didn't make the latest commitment on the table. Not to mention that the incredible presumption on Bill's part that a particular commitment WAS God's best or what He desired for our lives.
And you're right . . . I don't EVER remember being told to discuss any commitment with my parents, or being exhorted to pray and study the Scriptures, before making it.
Agreed Ryan. My parents had NO idea how I felt about the 10 year singleness vow I made. When they read my story here on RG, my mother bawled her eyes out. *sigh* I figured it would be akin to sinning if I told my mom and dad how I really felt and that it was too much for me. You know?
I didn't understand this until I was much older and out of ATI. For a man who stressed our parents as authorities - he did all he could to get us away from our parents. In Knoxville our training sessions often had vows at the end. As a Parent I would like to be present if my child is vowing something. I worked at HQ. I remember BG telling us girls that our Dad's had placed us there under his authority. When my Mom heard this she was a bit put out - my parents viewed me as under their authority, not BG's. He also told us NOT to call home and "complain" to our fathers. This was exactly opposite of his teachings to be under our fathers.
Vows from reading our Bible's to never marrying a divorced man. I can't even remember all the ones I made. Without my parents awareness . It makes sense now - people react at the word but it really was brainwashing at it's best. Of students and parents.
I remember in Knoxville making the vow not to kiss until marriage. When I told my parents about it, they were surprised and said they had really enjoyed kissing while engaged, and they would encourage me to rethink my commitment. (My parents were very balanced, non drink-the-koolaid types.)
I actually kept that commitment and haven't regretted it. Others I've pretty much ignored.
Love you, SaraJ, my first kiss :)
If you recall correctly, there was much teaching on vows. If a young woman made a vow, and the father chose to release her from it "IN THE DAY THAT HE HEARD OF IT," because he thought it was foolish, she would be let off the hook. But if he simply heard it and thought, "Oh that's interesting" and didn't vocally voice disapproval, or waited until the next day or even months later to say he disagreed with it, the vow stood, from a Scriptural point of view, and you were bound to it. For the young men, there was no "Scriptural" out. Once they'd made a vow, they were stuck.
So no, there was no teaching about talking to parents before making a vow, only the possibility (for the girls) that maybe their father would disapprove--immediately--on hearing of it. I do once remembering mentioning a vow I'd made to my father and noticing that he didn't really react much to it. So that meant it was permanent--for life. I wondered if he realized that, or if it just wasn't a big deal to him. I don't know if that teaching was propagated among the fathers at the fathers' sessions. I guess I just assumed it was.
But the way it was taught, even if a guy's father disapproved on hearing about it, it was too late. If a girl's father took a day to think it over, it was too late. These vows were permanent, and we also had teaching on the seriousness of vows and vow-breaking. I remember all this came from Scripture, so it's not like you could argue with it. It was just truth.
I will never forget sitting in an assembly hall somewhere in Knoxville (we had been bussed away from the UT campus) with about 500 or so other teenage guys. We had been doing stuff all day and it was late in the afternoon. I was 14 and was seated around several of my "friends" and we were sort of talking amongst ourselves when Gothard came out on the stage. I laugh now at how silent the room became once he (Gothard) entered. He came up to the podium and then he pulled a crumpled piece of paper out of his pocket. This piece of paper we would soon learn, had a note scribbled on it from an ATI boy to an ATI girl. Gothard read the note aloud. I don't remember it word for word, but basically the boy thought the girl was pretty and wanted to know if they could eat lunch together at some point during the week. After reading the letter, Gothard tore into the young man about having "lust of the flesh" and we stopped right there and bowed our heads in prayer for this fellow teenager that he would "repent" of his wickedness and come to see the truth. He went on lecturing us for at least another 20 minutes about how dangerous a note such as this young man's could be. That's when all the respect I had for Gothard ended. I was like, are you serious? I looked around to see if my "friends" thought the same thing I did, but sadly, most of them were about as dead serious about the matter as Gothard was.
It wasn't long after that summer that my parents finally realized that ATI was not near as grand and wonderful as they once thought and they pulled me out of the program and put me into public school.
This was something that led to incredible disillusionment for me.
After attending a 2-week 'counseling seminar' in Indianapolis, making 'Vows' every few days, I returned to 'the real world,' and saw once again how weak my own strength was. I saw once again how futile my promises 'to be better' were.
That was when I started asking more questions about anything I heard from Bill Gothard.
Gothard teaches, encourages and leads impressionable young people into a system of self-reliant, self-centered, performance-based Christianity.
The New Testament doesn't really have that much to say about vows, aside from Jesus discouraging people from using them(Mat.5). However it has a lot to say about living by Grace, in reliance upon the Holy Spirit.
The Old Testament actually discourages people from 'vowing unto the Lord' as Gothard encouraged us to, over and over again. (Eccl.5)
As I see it, this is part and parcel of Gothard's "Evangelical Talmud," a comprehensive, binding, and incredibly guilt-ridden system of rules and regulations for Christian living made up of cherry-picking whatever concepts from the OT Law that most appealed to Gothard himself, which he then declared to be Of and From GOD Almighty.
When I read your comment about Jesus discouraging people to use them, it struck me that THIS was the reason why. Because not only is it a form of manipulation, it is a way to "lord over" your own accomplishments. And that is diametrically opposed to anything and everything that Jesus taught.
By the time I was a senior in high school, I thought my whole life was ruined because I had made so many "vows" to God at Knoxville and hadn't kept them. I just knew God hated me and nothing I could ever do would make these "vows" right again. Talk about brainwashing at its finest...
An early aha moment for me came at the ITC when my friend quipped that with all the steps, formulas, and the like, we didn't really NEED Jesus . . . absolutely it was a form of self-reliant Christianity, which really is no Christianity at all.
Unfortunately, it took several more aha moments before I woke up enough to leave IBLP behind, and a near nervous breakdown about 5 years later for me to get to the end of my own efforts so I could truly see my need for a Savior. I had known that need in my youth, but it got buried in all the glitter of Bill's new approach to life, being a world changer and other such nonsense.
Thank you for this!!!! Especially the bit about peer pressure. IMHO, positive peer pressure can be much more harmful than negative peer pressure. I have an article stewing in my mind for RG on this subject.
Thank you for writing this article Eliza! This all needed to be said.
Excellent article, Eliza. I think it speaks strongly of the true character of Bill Gothard; an honest man would not withhold information from parents that he shared with students.
I remember one Indy conference where Bill Gothard separated all the young people (as young as twelve) from their parents and solemnly told them to vow never to marry a divorced person, no matter what the reason. No parental involvement whatsoever; few parents even knew how their twelve-year-olds were being manipulated. Anyone else remember this?
Absolutely---I remember that happening in Knoxville in the early- to mid-90's in our apprenticeship session. There was heavy pressure on us all to make this vow. I did, and for years afterword struggled with wondering if I ever should have. Fortunately for me it was a non-issue when I met my husband, since he was not previously divorced, but I have other friends who met wonderful, previously divorced spouses, and God has blessed their marriages. I realized later that it was horrible manipulation. I understand cautioning young people as to the difficulties that can be involved, but pressuring them to vow?? Basically, as with most other subjects, Gothard was not leaving ANY room for the Holy Spirit to guide or lead us individually. He felt the need to speak for and act as God in our lives, and remove our need for any dependence on the Holy Spirit. After leaving ATI, it's taken years for me to learn how to have a relationship with God where I can trust His Holy Spirit to lead me, apart from just leaning on the teachings of other Christian leaders.
Yes, I remember this as well. There was a ton of pressure to make this particular vow. Even more than some of the others.
I remember that session, and Gothard saying to us girls, "If you marry a divorced man, it will destroy you." He also came down hard on the fact that a husband should be older than the wife, although I don't know if he asked for us to commit to that.
My mom was married to a divorced man. Both of her husbands (my dad and stepdad) were younger than she. She pointed both facts out to me. I think I was too embarrassed to admit that I'd committed to never marrying a younger, divorced man.
Yes, Sara, he asked for a commitment to not marry a younger man. I remember because I made that commitment, thinking it was a good one considering my personality. Only later to discover my personality is almost opposite to what I thought it was. I was conforming to what others expected of me, and therefore not living from my real personality.
So what happened to those who wouldn't make the vow? Those who didn't raise their hand?
Shunning. Which in a world where you were cut off from "ungodly" influences (I.e., kids in your youth group who passionately loved Jesus, but weren't in ATIA, relatives who thought your family was off, neighbors, etc.) was not as trivial as it seems. To be labeled a rebel, or to be sent home was the ultimate rejection. Most of us grew up feeling isolated. No one understood ATI. So when you were FINALLY around people like you who understood, where you weren't the "weird kid", it was bliss. Losing that was for many more than they could bear. That's why I conformed as much as I did. I didn't want to feel lonely.
And my parents were liberal by ATI standards in that they didn't forbid any of those outside influences (there were many families that did), but the deeper we got into ATIA, the more I lost touch with friends outside ATI to the point that 2 years into the program, I really felt as though I didn't have any friends (except for a few who also were in ATI).
This is certainly true. I can remember Gothard speaking to us as young teenage boys multiple times without our parents around and getting very serious about vows. Vows about not dating. Vows about not marrying a divorced girl. He would ask and like I saw someone mention earlier, I raised my hand out of fear that; a. someone would see me not raise my hand and b. the people sitting close to me would not hear me raise my hand and think I was some sort of wicked person. I remember feeling so much pressure to conform. The more I think back, it really was almost a cult like atmosphere. Many other teenage boys spoke of Gothard like he was literally a prophet from God and anything he said was the gospel. I also remember how the ALERT team would boss us around like we were a bunch of idiots. I'm sure their were (and are) some decent alert team guys, but in my eyes they were all jerks and I hated them and their program.
Thank goodness I also avoided the isolation. (It helped that we joined when I was older and had outside activities.)
It was true, though, that any failure to conform to any and all commitments led to, at minimum, being looked on with suspicion. In the words of the immortal Ray Stevens, you were "out of the shrine!"
You would likely feel guilty for not being "spiritual" enough to make that kind of commitment. And if anyone else found out you hadn't, there would be peer pressure to conform. If that didn't work, then the shunning as Ryan has so eloquently said. Most of us definitely didn't want to be labeled a "rebel."
To me, the "years of singleness" vow was one of the worst. When us teenagers, some as young as 12, were told how good and in fact nearly necessary it was to make a vow to however many years of singleness (i.e. no special relationships of any kind with the opposite sex), we felt that in order to fit in and be a good kid, we needed to make that vow. It seemed that the more years you committed to, the better. And yeah, I don't remember Gothard even saying anything about talking it over with our parents (before or after we made the commitment). That was on a Journey to the Heart when I was 17. Fortunately I didn't make the vow. I thought it was pretty weird. But later I found out that my younger sister, who was also there, had made the commitment. And now she wishes she hasn't. So yeah, that's definitely inconsistency too, when Gothard talks so much about staying under authority, but then has kids do things like this without even talking to their parents.
On a closely related topic, do you think that God really expects us to carry out the "vows" we made under the pretext and peer pressure of IBLP? Gothard himself has a long list of how a father/husband can nullify a daughter's vow. And Jesus himself said not to vow in Matthew 5:37 "Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil." It's incredibly ironic how the main scripture passage Gothard uses teaches against vowing. So if I did something unbiblical and under duress, I don't think God would obligate me to live up to it. There's similar reasons US law doesn't hold contracts with minors to be valid.
There could be such an outward perfection to this, that it would look in the natural that whoever vows,and is "keeping" it is simply a superior Christian.Here's something I haven't got the answer for...keeping a vow in the flesh...that's where the old man jumps off the cross and becomes religious.He makes commitments, vows,deeds,and ultimately persecutes someone in the spirit.Isn't this what happened in Gothardism?
A promise made under coercion is no promise at all. I don't think we need to keep these if God is directing us to do something different.
Eliza, this concept is very old- and codified as early as the 12th c, under Gratian. Vows must be made freely- with consent and with knowledge of the consequences- or they are indeed invalid. Free consent comes up over and over throughout Canon and Marriage Law, and for good cause, because of the fallout resulting form 'vows' such as these. What Gothard did in forcing these promises was to my view heretical, because he is setting himself up as higher than God in his authority. None of you should feel the slightest obligation to keep these false vows.
*Full disclosure- I'm a medievalist, with background in Canon and Marriage Law.
I haven't studied it, but your question reminded me of Martin Luther. He had made a vow of chastity, yet when he disagreed with the Catholic Church, he eventually got married. He must have come to an understanding that vows made to a religious system that he later rejected to be invalid.
On a father revoking a daughters vow I had that experience earlier this year my fiances father tried to nullify out relationship and engagement. We more or less told him that wasn't going to happen.
His response was that we should obey our parents and honor them. I asked if that applied to all single adults even if their parents weren't believers. My particular case is that I left home many years ago I am independent I work I am buying my own house none of my family are Christian or even believe in a god. So if they give me ungodly worldly advice I should still obey them?
His answer was yes. I asked him if he recognized what the OT laws were a shadow of and He blinked blankly at me.
the point of this anecdote is to show how many get bound up in the letter of the law and not what the law represents. The law shows us our sin and points us to God's grace.
Dave, I do not believe we need to keep any of those unbiblical vows. That would be living under the law instead of under grace.
I never put the two and two together before - The idea that we were to remain totally under authority, yet Gothard would call on us to make commitments without ANY parental involvement.
Didn't he also tell girls while they were at training centers that their father had placed him in a position of authority over them? Seems like I remember hearing that before - i.e., you can make the vow to me because your father has transferred authority to me for the time you're here. Or maybe he said that in Knoxville once. Does anyone else remember hearing that? It sounds pretty creepy thinking about it now but back then in made sense (scary)
When did the father transfer his authority and responsibility for his own son or daughter to Bill Gothard!?! I don't think any of the parents who sent their children to work at the different areas of ATI/IBLP thought they had done that!
In the marriage ceremony there is a deliberate transfer of responsibility for the well-being of the daughter from the parents to the new husband. Where does that happen when a parent sends a child to work at one of BG's places?
This man has taken unwarrented liberties with the children who were entrusted to his leadership and care! This makes me feel really angry, and thankful we left ATI when we did, before any more damage was done to our family.
My husband and I attended one of Basic Youth in At. years ago when I children were small. When we got home my husband got rid of all his music that was not christian. Then we were taught the 7 Basic needs of a husband & wife...I had to take it twice because I was not and still not like my grand ma...LOL...I studied the bible and saw God's amazing Grace...and then told my husband that Bill Gothard did not have a wife or kids and he could not teach us how to raise our children, and how a wife was to act. I am so thankful that I have a Godly husband who supported me. We taught our child that the Lord loves us no matter what we do. It is so sad that y'all had to go thru this. By the way I am 61 yrs old. We went to the classes in the early 80's...Just once...
Good on you!
many years ago under Mr. Bill influence some men in our church helped my husband get rid of all his "evil" sc-fi books ( a lot of star trek first edition paper backs). I unfortunately had, if not completely swallowed, sipped the legalist Kool-Aid, so I thought the right thing was being done. Here it is 25 years later and my husband now has a much bigger collection than ever, not to mention, cds, dvds, books on his kindle and the men have all gone their own way. Hmm. I always wonder what went wrong with their good intentions and why my hubby did not swear off "evil" sci-fi?
This article is so well done. Thank you, Eliza! Several years after my association with IBLP/ATI ended, I discussed the issue of the vows with a seminary professor who was both my instructor and a wise counselor. He was familiar with the organization and had already spent time counseling me and my parents on how to have a healthy, mutually-respectful relationship as adults. His advice about the vows was to repent for making them so foolishly :), receive God's grace, and move on with life. That was such a breath of fresh air!
Gothard doesn't leave much room for the voice of the Holy Spirit to be persuasive in minds and hearts. I've, personally, never seen Gothard demonstrate much trust in the Holy Spirit.
My understanding is that the Holy Spirit wasn't as "effective" in convincing people to follow what Gothard thought they should as he was himself which leads me to wonder again, "Why the tension against the Holy Spirit?"
Jesus knocked Saul off his horse, struck him blind, and asked the question, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" because Jesus wanted to use Saul. If God doesn't see fit to convince us of Gothard's ways, why not?
These questions and their implications have some distrubing possible answers--ones that each of us need to work through with God.
Samuel,I think this is awesome,the problem is I just don't understand, and you may never come back to this spot.What do you mean "if God does not see fit to convince us of Gothard's ways".Then you said "why not"?You better believe already there are a lot of disturbing questions that need an answer about this false teacher.
This isn't Samuel, but he's sitting here with me so I asked him. He meant, Gothard doesn't trust the Holy Spirit to lead people into truth. If God isn't leading people to follow Gothard, it's like Gothard has to make sure that people follow him anyway. That lack of trust that God is big enough to lead His own people is concerning.
Why does Gothard have to teach principles to teach people how to live instead of teaching them to follow God and walk in the Spirit?
Thanks.Gothard has been successful in the church without the Holy Spirit for many years.Without the Holy Spirit,he has been recommended,approved,heralded by many protestant leaders.I know this sight as being one of the major ones to oppose him.Strip that veneer off him.He must be stopped.I consider him dangerous and unregenerate.Thank you for all your comments.Oh by the way,will we one day be held accountable for not speaking out if we know that Gothardism is evil? Disturbing!?
Also, the playing of parents against children and children against parents while "demonstrating" that he was "bringing them together" in a new harmony continues to be very disturbing. He left us with the concept that we were more spiritual than our parents and yet, like Jesus, we just needed to submit to them (even if they were wrong). He told us that we had more potential to see things as he did buying our loyalty while leading our parents into controlling more areas of our lives where we needed to be growing in our own walks with God.
Fear was the factor that broke many parents helping lead them to increasing control of their adult children while a false sense of guilt was the factor used to break young people to submit to it. Gothard is no dummy--he knows human psychology. He knows that women tend to have bouts with irrational fears and that men want to be respected and obeyed. He knows that young people are easily manipulated with a sense of guilt--even false or fabricated guilt.
Maybe he was naive, but I suspect that he knew he was being "persuasive."
Samuel, you said, " He knows that women tend to have bouts with irrational fears..." That would almost sound sexist until you remember the number of women in ATI who were almost constantly pregnant and/or postpartum combined with the number who were menopausal (most of the moms of apprenticeship students?) and how many were both at the same time. Add the sleep deprivation that was evident on so many ATI mom's faces and the whole thing was a huge set up. He had all these people stretched as far as they could go and then started in on all of his, "if only's."
... I wonder, would anyone here today be will ing to make a vow before the Lord to never attend another seminar put on by IBLP? If so, just raise your hand ... amen, yes, amen... all across this auditorium, amen.
lol ahahaa!
Only, it was more like "Aaamen, aaamen. What a beautiful sight... aaamen..."
You forgot, 'Praaaise God, aaamenn." in that soft, feminine, special way he has. Now that I think about it, did he ever really mention Jesus' name very much? Except maybe in prayer?
Not much, Jesus is more of a non-entity for him.
awesome humor keep it up.Here's to you Bill!
When I was sent an invitation to Indianapolis, I remember my mom commenting about how ironic it was that Bill Gothard had started a homeschooling program but that he was constantly inviting them to training centers, etc., away from their parents. That stuck with me. I think Mr. Gothard felt he could more easily influence the children directly, rather than simply trusting the parents' best judgment. A controlling person has trouble delegating. :)
[...] Bill Gothard has always had this emphasis in ATI and IBLP (the Advanced Training Institute and Institute in Basic Life Principles), if you will remember — which is probably why it triggers me. [...]
My experience with delaying marriage until after college has been pretty good so far. Different IBLP girls I have shown interest in over the years have turned out to be not so great friends or Christians.
[…] family joined ATI in the ‘90s. It was promoted to them as a program that would enable them to raise up Godly children. I don’t remember much about those early years in the program, except for the one big event every […]
[…] and actions, Gothard creates negative emotions that will often result in his followers making the choices/vows/commitments that he wants. This is a powerful method of spiritual manipulation. In the case of the “rebel,” […]
[…] conference or any of the other ATI training opportunities, we were encouraged to make vows or commitments—everything from not marrying a divorced person, to not ever listening to rock music, to not […]
While reading this, a lightbulb turned on.
IBLP promised my parents blessings, health, provision, etc. if they followed all the principles (which they did, for years). Yet, the principles were not, in fact, guarantees for life the way BG described it. No wonder I still struggle with disillusionment decades after leaving ATI.
Thank you for the thought provoking post.
I know this is a very old post, but yesterday someone I met spoke a word to me, saying if I'd ever made a vow to God, to be sure I kept it. I shared back that I had, but I had already broken it and wondered if that was the reason for my child's unexplained seizures/ health issues. I had attended a music recording teaching class while pregnant with them, and the music BLASTED there was so loud that I felt it deep in my body. I even went to the restroom and turned on the fan to try and block out the intensity of the noise. But yeah, I've been concerned about this many times.
I remember being asked to pray about not listening to music with the 2/4 beat and raising my hand during that prayer. It was maybe months later that my passion was too much for my father that had no intention of cutting this rock beat from every part of his life. He told me as my father he had the authority to release me from this vow. Mind you, it wasn't in the day he heard of it, but I suppose as a young teen I didn't realize all that was involved. I just knew he didn't want me "high and mighty" condemning them all to hell every time he would start drumming out a beat. He'd had enough.
Fast forward... this actually was something I brought up to my husband a month or two ago, just wondering about the possible connection to our child or even the long term issue we've had with mold - despite our best attempts to get away from it! It's felt like the curses of Deut 28.
So when this guy spoke that yesterday, it really struck a cord. I shared that with my husband last night and apparently he's been mulling it over, because he read from Deut 23 (I believe it was) that it might be the vow had to be SPOKEN?
I honestly have no clue if Mr. Gothard had us pray the prayer aloud or just in our hearts? Were we asked to vow or commit - if there's even a difference?
I've recorded music, and while for children, it still had some soft beats. I do understand mercy and forgiveness, but I also see that if a vow is made to Yahuah (God),that's pretty serious.
Can anyone remember - did we make these vows to Him or just for ourselves? Did we speak them aloud or just pray in our hearts while raising our hands? There does seem to be a lot of references in Scripture that tie the mouth to the vow, so maybe this is our "out"?
I learned a lot of good principles from my days with ATI and IBLP, but for sure see the great danger of putting children in such a dangerous place.