Me and My Red Notebook

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Me and My Red Notebook

Me and My Red Notebook

23 September 2014, 12:01

Years ago, right out of college and newly married, I took a position as an associate/youth pastor at a small, very fine church in Houston, Texas. At the time I had not heard of Bill Gothard, but at our senior pastor’s suggestion, that first week in May found my wife and me sitting for half a dozen days with several thousand others who were dutifully following along in a Red Notebook.

Too much time has passed for me to remember the details, but I do recall being touched by the grandness of the music, impressed by Bill Gothard’s seeming humility, and — I remember the Red Notebook. Filled with assorted lists of sinful attitudes and healthy life principles, to me it smelled not just of fresh plastic vinyl, but of ministry success! The artful illustrations of umbrellas, rebellious children, and spiritual flowcharts made perfect sense to my young mind.

Later that summer, our pastor resigned and moved to Africa as a missionary. Suddenly I was responsible for preaching twice on Sunday morning, once on Sunday evening and teaching on Wednesday night. All of this at 23 years old!

I was desperate, but my Red Notebook quickly became a source for some of my sermons. No doubt I was bordering on plagiarism, but having been married for barely a year and with no children, I used the Red Notebook for lessons on Christian living and family life. After all, if Bill Gothard the “scholar” said it, it must be true! Fortunately, most people ignored me.

I recall one counseling session with a young man brought into my office by his concerned mother. Working out of my Red Notebook, I quickly concluded that his poor school performance and lack of future goals was the result of a lack of submission to his father and to God. After all, what else could it be?

In our sessions, I did little listening; I mostly talked and quoted Scriptures to this young man who sat seemingly paralyzed by the whole process. Looking back, he likely suffered from a learning disability of some sort, and while his mother’s concerns were understandable, my Red Notebook did not account for life’s complexity.

Three years later, we moved to Dallas, where I matriculated into seminary, which was a wonderful experience. About two years into the four-year program, I attended a one-day pastor’s seminar hosted by Bill Gothard. Now that I had a better understanding of both hermeneutics and theology, I began to see just how much Bill Gothard “proof-texted” the Bible. Bending random passages to fit his very specific notions of life, love, and church, Bill Gothard and his Red Notebook began to lose credibility.

A few years later, as a pastor with more experience, I attended another such seminar where Bill Gothard magnificently mishandled the Bible by mandating a very specific worship liturgy — first the sermon and then the music. No flexibility! In addition, he insisted that church leaders visit every church home to ensure that each family had records (this was some time ago!) of edifying music. “Edifying” meant sacred and classical music. No classic rock during the week — or even Sandi Patti on a Sunday.

It was the last time I had anything to do with Bill Gothard.

It is a common error of youth to believe that most of life is white and black and solutions are simple. I was guilty of this. But like many pastors with a combination of church experience and a few children of my own, I now believe that life is quite complicated. Life’s problems are not given to easy, turn-to-the-right-page textbook answers from a Red Notebook.

Last year, I was a guest speaker at a church in Houston, and the parents of that then-young man introduced themselves and asked if I remembered them. To their surprise I did, and in our reunion conversation I found out that their son, the young man I had “counseled” from a Red Notebook so many years ago, is now gainfully employed, has an intact marriage, and, by all accounts, has done fine in life. No thanks to me!

Hopefully both God and the parties involved have forgiven me for my youthful hubris and psychological plagiarism in which I parroted the Red Notebook to them as though it were divine gospel!

Some years ago, during the last week of the last millennium, I took advantage of the quiet time after Advent to clean up my church office. I was committed to starting the new century fresh, and my goal was to lose 150 or so pounds. So I spent the week carefully going through desk drawers, file cabinets, and bookcases. Alone and with few interruptions, by the last Friday of that year, that century, and that millennium, I finished. Having dumped reams of outdated files into the church dumpster, I was certain that there were no loose papers anywhere.

That was the last I ever saw of my Red Notebook!

Stan Giles is ordained in the Evangelical Free Church and is a retired pastor and Air Force chaplain. He can be reached at [email protected].

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

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86 Comments

Jane September 23, 2014 Reply

I remember the day I burned my redbook. It was one of the most freeing days of my life! I never looked back.
- David June 16, 2015 Reply
  
  I shotgunned my old one from way back
Nancy2 September 23, 2014 Reply

How wonderful and merciful is our Heavenly Father to allow the author a glimpse of the work He was doing in the life of someone the author felt he fell short in his interactions. I love that Our loving Father opened the understanding that what can't be made complete by a red notebook can be made complete by His Holy Hand and Heart.

Thank you for sharing Stan.
Alex S. September 24, 2014 Reply

Your humility and honesty are refreshing. Thank you for sharing! May God continue to open your eyes to the truth and give you the ability and opportunity to share it with others!

Thankful God can do amazing things "no thanks to us"! :)
Sandra September 24, 2014 Reply

So many churches make the mistake of putting young men in positions to lead others, when they are just not ready. I never trust ANY book, except one, and that is the word of God. It has the RIGHT answer for every problem, the solution is ALWAYS on target. Trust God, not man, get into the word and seek God earnestly in prayer, not man's wisdom. It takes effort to learn God's ways. It's so easy to go to a man and get an answer right away, but that is just not God's way. He will never let you down, never lead you wrong.
rob war September 24, 2014 Reply

thank-you Stan for your honesty. I've sometimes wonder if the target audience for the Seminars towards teenagers and young adults may have be because this age group has the least life experience and the most gullible. You went to the seminar on suggestion, it seemed to you to be spot on not based on life experience and proper Biblical understanding but that it sounded so good. Then you acted and used it based on inexperience. At least for you (and me because I would fit in this category) real life experience and proper Biblical understand took root and eventually took over. I attended a Church that actually followed his order of worship of a month. however after abandoning it back to, the leadership should have looked at the rest of his teaching. Even though you felt you blew it with the young man in counseling, I think your prayers and regret for him still made a positive intercessor difference.
- J.B. September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Rob, I agree. For young people, the Red Notebook provided answers to the questions typically faced when standing at the door of adulthood. For older people, the Red Notebook seemed to provide certainty and shelter from the uncertainty, chaos, and disorder that characterizes our fallen world. Bill knew his target audience well and managed to deliver a message that had hooks across multiple market segments.
  - kevin September 24, 2014 Reply
    
    " Bill knew his target audience well and managed to deliver a message that had hooks across multiple market segments."
    
    Indeed he did. He is a master salesman. It's too bad he peddled snake oil, but he was sure good at it.
Larne Gabriel September 24, 2014 Reply

A great article! This reminds me of the story that a former staffer from the 70s recently told me. She stated right after she joined the staff in the early 70s and was attending a staff Bible study led by Bill. Someone mention wouldn’t it be wonderful, if in future, the Red Notebook would be discovered in an archeological dig. As everyone was agreeing with this statement and Bill was glowing in the response, this new staffer injected that wouldn’t it be better if they found a Bible. The room became quiet and all eyes now stared at the person who burst Bill’s bubble. Her response was honest and truthful, that as believers our hope lies in Christ and his Word the Holy Bible and not in a red notebook.

Larne

"The old guard"
Mary Olive September 24, 2014 Reply

Dear Folks,

I work with psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, social workers, chaplains, pastors, county officials and other psych nurses at the hospital on a daily basis and most seem to have a version of truth they adamantly endorse. They seem to believe that their version is correct and they're not open to believing differently.

I find this to be with religions and church leadership, as well. They seem to believe their church doctrine, based upon scripture, of course, is the truth and they proclaim it comes directly from the Word of God, even though others may find fallacies in it.

Do we condemn these folks for their apparent erroneous interpretations of the Scripture or do we love, encourage and pray for them?

What about the Amish, from which Bill Gothard patterned a lot of the IBLP "rules"? The Amish families forgave the man who murdered their daughters at one of their schools and they even supported his family. I think it might be charitable if we did the same for Bill Gothard.

A symptom of "Founder's Syndrome", of which I previously suggested Bill Gothard may be afflicted, is believing no one else can run things as well. I also suggested that Bill Gothard may have Asperger's Syndrome, now included in ASD (autism spectrum disorder) because of some the characteristics he manifests. These are just educated guesses that I've mentioned before, but worth considering, I believe.

On September 9, 2014, my husband and I received an e-mail from Bill Gothard announcing his plans to form a ministry called Total Success Power Teams for Men. I've been waiting for someone to mention it on this site. I imagined angry reactions by some of the staunch supporters here.

I find Bill Gothard's determination admirable, and even though my husband and I aren't going to become involved with his new ministry, we have chosen not to judge him for it. I think it is what he believes and sincerely wants to do to keep going at age 80. He's devoted his life since age 15 to the Lord, he says.

It reminds me of the founding elder on Family Radio who had a stroke and although his speech was deeply affected, he continued to broadcast even though others scoffed at him. Unless you are in that generation, or, as we sometimes say, have walked in his shoes, you probably won't understand why he's doing this. It's common now to disregard our elders. It's part of the culture. We call them "old dudes", "has beens" or "senile", as if anyone has a choice about growing older. They are people like you and me and they have feelings, dreams and even misconceptions like those who are much younger.

I'm not the enemy here. I'm just a believer who participated in IBLP and ATI through seminars and conferences with my oldest daughter, son-in-law and their family for almost a decade. They dropped out in 2007. I have nine grown children, six adopted of different racial and ethnic backgrounds. One has cognitive deficits and classic autism and lives in an adult foster home, but the rest are married and have families of their own. I work as a RN on the acute care mental health inpatient unit at the local medical center. My undergraduate and graduate degrees are in technical journalism and adult education respectively. I remarried even though Bill Gothard counseled me just to minister to my children and grandchildren.

I've enjoyed reading the comments on this site and admire your desire to help those who are in distress.
- Linn September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  There are elders worthy of honor, and there are elders who really should not be teaching anymore. Bill Gothard and Harold Camping (Family Radio) are two such examples. Gothard's false teaching destroyed thousands of families, and his sexual abuse of young women was just abhorrent. Camping disrupted the lives of many who believed his dates regarding the end of the world. Many of these people sold everything they had and went out to urge unbelievers to get ready to meet God. There are enough wonderful examples of godly elders still alive that we can emulate, and listen to. John Stott (deceased), Billy Graham, Elisabeth Elliott, and the Briscoes are the many that come to mind--and JI Packer! Their teaching will stand the test of biblical time, while Gothard and his ilk should continue their personal pursuit of God (hopefully in a corrected manner), but they should not disrupt the lives of any more believers.
  
  I tossed my red notebook in the recycling before I left the U.S. as a missionary in the mid-80s. By then, I had had enough excellent Bible teaching to know how mistaken and dangerous Gothard was.
  - Mary Olive September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Linn,
    
    My granddaughter is named Elisabeth Mary and it just occurred to me that she might be named after Elisabeth Elliott, now that I see the spelling of her name. I bought a tape of a testimony by Elisabeth Elliott at one of the ATI Conferences and appreciated her dry humor. I see she is alive, well and lovely at age 87. Thank you for reminding me about her.
    
    I haven't heard much about Billy Graham since his wife, Ruth, died. I understand he diligently practiced the wisdom of not being alone with a woman that was not his wife. That seems like a "no-brainer" to me.
    
    Harold Camping of Family Radio did sort of shoot himself in the foot with his "end of the world" dates. Why anyone would believe that is beyond me. It reminds me of Y2K in the secular world.
- kevin September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Mary,
  You said:
  "Do we condemn these folks for their apparent erroneous interpretations of the Scripture or do we love, encourage and pray for them? "
  
  I think that we need to pray for them. However, when their beliefs and teachings do harm, we need to warn others and speak out about them. You spoke of various professionals, such as psychiatrists, all having their own version of the truth. It's true we all have our own opinions and you'll likely not find any two people who agree on every truth across the board. But,if you had a psychiatrist who was practicing the medieval practice of bloodletting, harming people by their practice, they need to be confronted.
  
  The same is true in my view of Gothard's and IBLP's teachings. They do harm and, while we ought to pray for them all, we should continue to point to the harm they do. I have a good friend, who, like you and me, is an adoptive parent. A new follower of IBLP let my friend verbally have it, regarding how wrong it was for her to adopt these children, "Bill Gothard says this", "Bill Gothard says that..". She went on and on, reciting all the garbage the organization teaches. My friend was deeply hurt and brought to tears. She has a heart for adopting special needs children and is in the process of adopting two more. She was fragile, as adoption processes can be real roller coaster rides, as I'm sure you know. These teachings are terrible and, personally, I can't sit by and watch as people still cling to them as Godly. They have hurt far too many people. Enough is enough.
  - Mary Olive September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Kevin,
    
    I appreciate what you are saying and understand your point of view that Bill Gothard and IBLP's teachings do harm to some folks.
    
    Your story about how your adoptive parent friend was treated is a sad one. One might expect that kind of talk from nonbelievers, but not from fellow Christians.
    
    We didn't knowingly adopt a special needs child. Matthew was 5 months old, not yet diagnosed and I didn't know much about special needs then.
    
    While having Matthew in our lives was definitely a challenging life-changer, it's also been one of the greatest blessings of my life.
    
    Some time ago, while I was single, I asked two long time Christian friends if they would write letters of recommendation for me for the adoption of a couple of Liberian children. My children were grown and I hadn't met my current husband yet. I was rebuffed by both friends, so I didn't continue with the adoption. Was that wise? Perhaps, or perhaps not. Who knows? They say God works in mysterious ways.
    - kevin September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Mary,
      
      Thanks for your reply.
      
      Thanks for sharing about your adoption of Matthew. Our adoption, too, has been one of the greatest blessings in our lives.
      As to your friends, it is hard to say whether it was wise of them or not, without more details as to their motivation. If they were coming from the IBLP anti-adoption mindset, I would say their rebuffing was based on false teaching and foolish.
      Regardless of their motivation, that they would "rebuff" you, which implies an ungracious delivery, would be inappropriate, in my view.
      with my friend, I think her hurt came more from the content of what this woman was delivering to her. I don't think she had ever encountered anyone before that was anti adoption, and on top of that, to try to take the position that God is against adoption, per the IBLP thinking. Although she and I share many mutual friends who are involved in IBLP in one way or another, all of them seem to reject Gothard's position on adoption, or at least keep it to themselves, at least until this incident. She had no idea that the organization taught this, until encountering this person who had taken it all in.
      My wife and I have tried to help her understand the incident and helped her understand where this woman was coming from. The woman who rebuffed her is not a bad person, in fact, I consider her a friend. She has just been exposed to false teaching that is making her believe some very unbiblical things- things which do harm. She too is a victim.
      I guess what really gets me is that these teachings not only do harm, but they harm the most needy- orphans. I wonder how many children have not been adopted into families because of these teachings. If we are to believe the anecdotes in the booklet, there are families who changed their mind at the last minute, rejecting their referral, so as to follow the guidelines of the organization and not take growing their families "into their own hands."
      
      Others sent their adopted children back to the orphanages. The book gives an example of a family blessed with a financial windfall after making such a move- presented as God showing his approval.
      
      As an adoptive parent, I hope that you did not come across this teaching while associated with them and I hope that you were never confronted with anyone who felt that they had to inform you that you were violating God's will by adopting.
    - Mary Olive September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Kevin,
      
      Thanks for your input and insights.
      
      I read the adoption care bulletin and really didn't consider it more than advice about the possible perils of adoption.
      
      I interpreted the example of an adoption being canceled and then the family receiving a windfall as an illustration of those who might already realize they don't have the fortitude to deal with the trials of identity crises, attachment disorders, conduct disorders, mental health issues, developmental disabilities, etc. I didn't see it as false teaching, per se. Perhaps it was an ill-chosen example, used as a persuasive tool, though.
      
      I once took care of a female patient who had two adopted children from two different countries. The first adopted child was adapting nicely. The other was violent toward the adoptive mother and was finally placed in a foster home, and according to the mother, is doing well now. She visits him with supervision and he's able to control his behavior toward her when he's not alone with her.
      
      The friends that rebuffed me were most likely trying to protect me from such possible tragedy, but I chose to be offended instead simply because they didn't agree with me. Now, after almost ten years, I can see their points of view a little more clearly. I still disagree with their conclusions but who is to say I'm right?
      
      Two of my previously adopted children are from Korea. One was brought over by another family from an orphanage and rehomed with us after they, a Christian family with six blonde-haired, blue-eyed biological children, were stymied by the differences between the cultures. They later admitted they'd made a mistake in giving him up and wanted him back. He was a teenager by then. He's now grown, and it's my guess, believes both families failed him as he doesn't keep in touch with either adoptive family now.
      
      My other Korean child has never wanted to return to her country of origin but she was an infant when she was adopted by us. Now her biological children are leaning toward their Asian heritage. Interesting.
      
      Years ago, I had other evangelical friends who adopted a small girl from Korea and when that child became a teenager she repeatedly raised havoc in the family and finally ran away. Possibly Bill Gothard heard a lot of these type of stories from families and was attempting to warn adoptive parents, I don't know. It was just his opinion, as far as I can discern, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak, like other teachings by humans.
    - kevin September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Mary,
      You said:
      
      "I interpreted the example of an adoption being canceled and then the family receiving a windfall as an illustration of those who might already realize they don't have the fortitude to deal with the trials of identity crises, attachment disorders, conduct disorders, mental health issues, developmental disabilities, etc. I didn't see it as false teaching, per se. Perhaps it was an ill-chosen example, used as a persuasive tool, though. "
      
      You are most kind as far as interpreting the message of the adoption booklet.The problem is that the example given of the family receiving the financial windfall did not merely "cancel" their adoption. They adopted their baby boy at age 1 and sent him away to an out of state orphanage at age 6. No matter how I try, I see no legitimate way to spin this off as innocent from Gothard's or the institute's standpoint. And to suggest that the financial woes that came their way, which coincided with the adoption, was God's punishment for taking growing their family into their own hands, and then the financial reward they received as his blessing for following His will in getting rid of their child as inexcusable.
      This was the only family that this boy knew. It should have been his forever family. If his example is true and not contrived, shame on them for listening to Bill Gothard and shame on him for callously suggesting that families get rid of their adopted children.
      
      " Possibly Bill Gothard heard a lot of these type of stories from families and was attempting to warn adoptive parents, I don't know."
      
      Perhaps. Bill Gothard once said that he has never seen an adoption work out for the family. I find this incredible, but he said this. I know so many adoptive families, and I see the overwhelming majority of them working out as a blessing for both family and child.
      
      I think that what Bill Gothard may be observing is what a complete failure his one size fits all formulas and steps are in handling complex life problems. If there is anywhere in which one can not expect to apply a one size fits all formula it is with adoption. When a child has issues, such as RAD due to lack of love as a child or is dealing with the psychological challenge of the loss of his biological parents, it involves a lot of love, and understanding- not formulas made up by a man who knows nothing of the topics the parents are dealing with.
      But, like with just about everything else, Gothard declares himself an expert on adoption and is going to tell adoptive parents how to deal with their "conflicts" without any education or understanding in the area. It is little wonder that this would lead to problems for many people.
      
      "It was just his opinion, as far as I can discern, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak, like other teachings by humans."
      
      But this is not how he teaches. He teaches as if he is an authority on all matters- he teaches as if his teachings come from God. His opinions are elevated by himself and his followers and this is how damage occurs.
    - Aila H September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Mary and Kevin,
      If you don't mind, I would like to add my thoughts on adoption, as the mother of four children who joined our family through adoption. My heart aches for anyone who actually believes Bill Gothard's teaching is Biblical. My heart breaks for children affected by attachment disorders. Our youngest daughter came to us at age two. She had multiple placements before coming to our home. She screamed a lot! And she was louder than her twin brothers combined when they were babies, I couldn't believe it.
      The first time I met her I saw an anxious and bewildered toddler. I told her many times, that the grown-ups had been confused, and didn't know who was supposed to take care of her, but there was one who did know, and he had always been taking care if her. I told her God loved her, and knew her by name, even though she'd been called by different names, I told her that He was the one who made her, and He would always take care of her. The first time I told her this, I was changing her diaper at the foster home, where I had gone to meet her. She spoke to me with just her eyes, and said, "tell me that again" and so I did. I told her many times as a toddler, and preschooler. We had a year of clinging and screaming, and another two years of clinging, but we now have a confident, engaging sixteen year-old.
      
      I have told all my children that God is the one who creates families, and adoption was how he created ours. No, God did not make someone give up their child to be raised by others, but the world is broken; poverty, death, fear and infertility are part of the world damaged by sin. But God who sees the broken world, takes these broken pieces and makes something beautiful. This is the message that should be shared. The idea that God will bless families who relinquish a child is so contrary to the heart of God.
      
      I too know families that have struggled with cultural issues. My children struggle with being different than the main stream. But we all have struggles, and the message should always be that God is faithful in every circumstance. I don't want to minimize the real difficulties that some adoptive families face, but wouldn't it be better to give people encouragement rather than telling them it was a bad idea to start with. Bill should be ashamed.
      
      Mary, while you say that you recognize that this is just a man talking, and his opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, he thinks he is speaking for God, and that is one of the reasons that I believe he doesn't have the integrity to lead any ministry.
    - Mary Olive September 25, 2014
      
      Dear Aila and Kevin,
      
      I so appreciate your input and stories regarding adoption.
      
      I'm sure you both have the type of families that would not consider relinquishing a child in your care no matter what anyone might say to you.
      
      I guess I was attempting to give Bill Gothard the benefit of the doubt about some of the questionable teachings you mention.
      
      Since there were no attributions listed for some of the IBLP publications, it's not easy to know who actually wrote them. Hearsay is tough to prove. There is no doubt about some of the later materials because Bill Gothard is listed as the author.
      
      I have noticed that Bill Gothard sometimes makes statements that indicate he believes he has a direct line to God. Maybe he's delusional, or maybe he really does have "a hot line to Heaven". Only God knows the answer to that one. I've known others who believe they've been anointed with a special dispensation.
    - kevin September 26, 2014
      
      Mary,
      
      You wrote:
      
      "Since there were no attributions listed for some of the IBLP publications, it's not easy to know who actually wrote them. Hearsay is tough to prove. "
      
      Yes, I'm giving ownership of the content of this adoption booklet to Gothard.
      
      1. Bill Gothard exercised extreme control over every aspect of the organization. The idea that IBLP would publish a booklet without his approval and oversight is pretty unthinkable.
      
      2. The booklet was given to me by Bill Gothard, to support some of his views about adoption that he was making to me. In my view some very outrageous views that I was encouraging him to reconsider.
      
      I believe he wrote the booklet, but at the very least it expresses the views that he conveyed to me personally. Whether he authored it, dictated it, had a disciple write it and then approve it, I can't say. But he used to book with me to support the arguments that he was making and believes it is something that parents who have adopted or are considering adoption should read.
      
      3. Those who know Bill well may see his hand in this quote from the booklet pretty clearly:
      
      "Caitlin Marie is God's added blessing to this family for their obeying His will for their lives. Her name means "pure, living fragrance."
      
      Sound like anyone you know?
      
      By the way, the thing that this family did, for which he is claiming God rewarded them by giving them Caitlin Marie? It was ostensibly one of their rewards from God, for sending their 6 year old adopted son to an out of state orphanage, in addition to the financial blessing that they received after sending him away.
      "Within two weeks after our son left, it was discovered that one of the companies my husband does business with had been holding back money they owed. The check they sent almost totally covered the amount my husband's business had gone into debt!"
      
      From the same story" "unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it"
      You see, by adopting, this family was "taking matters into our own hands and adopting our son", rather than trusting God to grow their family.
      
      I know you always try to give Bill Gothard the benefit of every doubt Your love for him is very sincere and I understand you wanting to do so. I just can't give him a pass on this, however. I find these teachings and his out of context use Exodus 20:5, "sins of the fathers" and Genesis 21: 9-12, to scare parents about adoption terrible.
- rob war September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Mary,
  you have a very thoughtful and interesting analysis about Bill. I actually agree that there is probably some sort of learning disability or even a mild aspergers type diagnosis with Bill. but, stating that you do not judge him isn't exactly accurate. Calling him a possible Aspergers etc is a judgement of sorts. Now maybe this can explain his rather robotic view of human nature and his ridgitiy but mental/learning types of illnesses should never be an excuse for false teaching that has been harmful to so many. The best thing for someone that is nearly 80 like Bill is to seek help. But considering his views of Psychiatry and Psychology, I wouldn't hold my breath. He shouldn't be starting another ministry and he should be addressing all these issues brought up on this and other web sights. Maybe his personality and mental issues explain why he didn't see anything wrong with footsie with teenage girls but that should never excuse this and many more behaviors. Determined or not, he needs to pack it up and call it a day not continue in the same old way.
  - Mary Olive September 24, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Rob,
    
    I appreciate your response. I wasn't diagnosing Bill Gothard with Asperger's Syndrome, I was merely suggesting it might be a plausible explanation for some of his behaviors. He would need to be tested and diagnosed by someone who is qualified to do so, and I doubt if he would agree at this time in his life. I absolutely agree that a diagnosis is not an excuse for inappropriate behavior.
    
    What I did say was even though my husband and I are not going to be involved with Bill Gothard's proposed new ministry, we've chosen not to judge him for it. It sounds like he may be in denial, but that's just a guess, too.
    - rob war September 25, 2014
      
      Mary, thanks for your reply. I guess I am at a loss as to what you really mean by judgement. You have chosen not to judge him. Does that mean you feel when people like on this web sight discuss his teaching that is judgement? Do you feel that when people recount how he treated them that is judgement? Do you feel that when people point out that he actually didn't live out his own teaching, that is judgement? I think "judge not" is probably the most misunderstood and abused phrase. Holding someone accountable as well as shining light on hidden darkness really isn't judgment. But if we become afraid to discuss his teaching and behavior out of fear of "judgement" don't we really end up not serving God. The same Matthew sermon on the mount passage moves on from the do not judge to telling others to examine the fruit of someone. That is making a judgement call. I hope you can clarify what you exactly mean by not judging Bill.
    - Mary Olive September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Rob,
      
      I think it is just a matter of the choice of my words. Originally, I wrote the phrase "we've chosen not to condemn him for it" but that sounded a bit too strong so I changed it to "we've chosen not to judge him for it".
      
      It simply means we've chosen neither to endorse nor oppose Bill Gothard's proposed new ministry. In other words, we don't plan to take a stand either way. We're probably one of the "luke-warms" that God abhores, but, oh well.
      
      I am more concerned at this moment about the execution of al-Nuaimi, the activist rights lawyer in the Iraqi city of Mosul who was tortured and murdered by militants from the Islamic State group for the criticism of them she posted on Facebook. That, to me, is so unjust and savage, as are most of the other things they do.
- Aila H September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Mary Olive,
  I am not angry to read Bill Gothard is trying to begin a new ministry, but I am troubled that he would once again reinvent himself with a new ministry. The name is also problematic for me "Total Success Power Teams for Men" because it seems to imply that total success is possible, and who doesn't want power, being part of a team, that sounds good too. Jesus just calls us to be servants, and to follow Him.
  - Mary Olive September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Aila,
    
    We were surprised to receive Bill Gothard's email about his new ministry. It hadn't occurred to me that he would be brave enough to start a new one. Then I realized it's all he knows how to do and he doesn't believe in retirement.
    
    I don't have a problem with the name he's chosen. Men seem to be drawn to success and power. I haven't seen most men get all that excited about becoming servants unless it also entails adventure and challenge. I just hope and pray Bill Gothard has learned from his previous mistakes.
    - Aila H September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Mary,
      The reason I find the name troubling is that it sounds like an exercise or weight loss program that one might see in an infomercial on television. Follow the plan, and be successful. Bill is not the only one in the church to offer programs that are supposed to bring success, but he is a master at developing steps for programs that others are to follow. His life is not one of success. I could not fathom trying to teach something that I am not proficient in myself.
      
      The church often tries to build programs around the strategies of men, but Jesus says, "follow me." Jesus did not promise his disciples worldly success, instead he did promise them that He would make them"fishers of men" and he calls all of us to follow him too. He also told us that in the world we would have tribulation, but to be of good cheer, because he has overcome the world. There are many who want to deny the truth of these words. If your life isn't perfect, or at least reasonably trouble free, it's because of some sin, or wrong attitude. I've often wondered how the disciples felt when they heard the words, "take up your cross, and follow me." At that point, the disciples had no clue that Jesus was headed to the cross. I remember my grandfather, who was a pastor, talking to me about the sufferings that we experience, and how they pale in comparison to the suffering of Jesus.
      
      So yes, this really bothers me, Total Power Success Teams is not the way of the cross.
    - Mary Olive September 25, 2014
      
      Hi Aila,
      
      I so appreciate your sense of humor and enjoyed your comments.
      
      I think the name does sound a little contrived, but choosing names is not an easy thing to do, I'm sure.
      
      I've never really understood the Institute of Basic Life Principles name either. It sounds a bit worldly to me, but then I'm notably old-fashioned. Maybe Bill Gothard was attempting to appeal to a larger audience, or new Christians when he agreed to the name.
      
      The Total Success Power Teams for Men name might appeal to a macho man who is coming out of the world and wishes to be part of a discipleship team, I'm not sure. It doesn't really concern me since I wouldn't be included, except through my husband, anyway.
    - John K September 26, 2014
      
      "I just hope and pray Bill Gothard has learned from his previous mistakes."
      
      I would change your statement to "will learn", as there is no evidence that he has learned anything of spiritual value. The burden of proof is on Gothard to to show that he has learned, and I see no room for "hope" here. The onus is on Bill Gothard to publicly repent of his sins and seek actual reconciliation with those he has hurt (not just say he is as he has done, but there's no evidence of real attempts). Until then, I have no problem judging that he is at best grossly unqualified to have any kind of leadership role in any ministry (per I Timothy 3 and Titus 1) including this and any other new ministry venture, and at worst a false teacher who is not a Christian. I can pray that he will publicly repent, but I have no hope at all that he has actually learned anything of value toward godliness and I won't have hope until he actually publicly repents.
  - rob war September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Yes, the name and implication is very problematic. It again emphasizes "success" which is similar to the Word of Faith type definition which again is a worldly material one. I think I will stick to Mother Theresa of Calcutta how said that God calls us to be faithful not successful. Jesus said take up your cross and follow me, that doesn't imply "success" as either Bill has in his ministry or WoF people do. Bill's definition implies you do X, Y, and Z according to Bill then one will not have any problems and one will be "successful" which usually meant financial. Bill saw his ministry as "successful", he had thousands following him and he had millions of dollars. But look at it's real fruit, all these hurt and damaged lives. That isn't success but failure.
  - kevin September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    It's disturbing to me that he is doing this, but I am not surprised at all. Bill Gothard resigned for 17 days following the scandal of the late 70s and 1980, so stepping out of ministry for a couple months may seem like a long time to him. His letter that he posted regarding the touching tells me that he is either being completely dishonest about what happened or in denial or both. He should not be running any ministry. I believe Charlotte's account that he molested her- he sexually molested a minor, perhaps several others, and he belongs in prison, at least for a time for what he did.
    I am also not surprised by the name. When you look at the program, guaranteed "success" was what Gothard was selling. Never mind that his teachings led to disaster for many families and churches.
    I predict that we will see Bill Gothard appear as a paid featured speaker at future IBLP conferences, to the excited delight of the faithful followers.
  - Curious September 26, 2014 Reply
    
    Can someone please share more about the email from Bill Gothard about starting a new ministry? I have heard nothing about that, nor have I seen any mention of it in any other venue. I jut spent some time googling and haven't found anything. Thanks!
- Don Rubottom September 25, 2014 Reply
  
  Mary, your heart is precious and your contributions here are a blessing.
  "Faithful are the wounds of a friend." Have you all considered writing to Bill and explaining why you do not think it is advisable to participate in his "new ministry"? Have you considered explaining the danger of him offering his leadership to men when he has not reconciled himself to those he has previously damaged? Your compassion and generosity might assist him to experience the answer to our prayers: His repentance and conversion.
  - Mary Olive September 25, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Don,
    
    Thank you for your kind and generous words. Actually we did respond to Bill Gothard's invitation but it was with more practical reasons than you suggest.
    
    My guess is that no patriarchal man is going to acknowledge his error, especially if it's revealed by a woman who's not his wife. At least that's been my previous experience. We do continue to pray for him, though.
    
    I paste my last response to him for you to see:
    
    "Dear Bill,
    
    Thank you for your emails. It was good to hear from you.
    
    My husband, Clark, has a new grandson being born today and Clark's friend of 50 some years just passed away from a massive stroke, but I want to let you know that we're still praying for you.
    
    Just a thought, but you might not want to reveal email addresses (see below) in future communications.
    
    Most sincerely,
    
    Mary and Clark XXXX"
    - Don Rubottom September 26, 2014
      
      Mary, thank you! If you are right about "patriarchal" men, he probably took your note as proof that you are wearing the pants in the family, protecting your husband from commitment to Great Deeds.
      But do not be afraid to confront anyone with the truth. Israel rejected the prophets for hundreds of years, but after the exile, classical idolatry was dead and gone for good!
      The reason I wrote, "you all", was to encourage your husband's direct corrective interaction with BG.
      As to some other things you mentioned, I do find it problematic that BG's appeal is to man's lust for "adventure" and success. I am afraid that if one attracts ants with honey, he will not be able to convert them into men, although he might make a decent living selling honey.
      Instead of more salesmanship, it might be encouraging if his new gig was called
      "Meekness for the Power Mad:
      In Which BG Accepts Correction
      and Reproof from the Men
      Whose Daughters have been
      Harmed by IBLP Employment"
      but, alas....
      That patriarchy must be pretty lonely without any family. (I am not trying to be disagreeable, I am just sighing with words.)
Michael Karpf September 24, 2014 Reply

Stan, I also went to Dallas Theological Seminary! Like you, I was taught Greek and Hebrew exegesis. From then on I wondered if Bill Gothard's teaching would hold under careful exegesis of the passages he used.
My trouble was not so much with Gothard himself. I benefitted from his seminars for the most part. Where I had trouble was with diehard Gothardites, who took everything he said as the word of God. They could be very rigid. I remember one friend, who simply spouted off what Gothard said, without even listening to my side of the story.
I had gone down front and talked to Bill during the breaks. He came across as a very humble and godly man. But reading Don Vienot's book, A Matter of Basic Life Principles, I get a whole different picture.
I respect the man for his convictions. But I don't respect a man who tries to make his convictions equal to God's word. That is legalism. I don't rejoice over what has happened to Bill Gothard. I remember, living in Dallas in the late 1970's that everybody was going to his seminar. I certainly did not want to miss out, so I went with some friends. I was working as a security guard, and the next day they called me out on an overnight shift, so I had to miss the rest of the seminar. I went the following year. As I wrote earlier, I benefitted from Gothard's seminars, but looking back, he is not the final word. God's word is what we need to look at. I am watching a great conference online on expository preaching; Cutting it Straight, hosted by H.B. Charles Jr. I listened to him and Dr. R. Albert Mohler speak tonight on why we need to preach expositionally. I am so thankful for the training Dallas Theological Seminary gave me in how to "rightly divide the word of truth," and to "preach the word."
Incidentally, when I moved to Japan as a missionary, I got rid of a lot of books, and that includes both the red notebook, and the gold notebook from the Advanced Seminar. Now, living in Bangkok, I can assure you that I don't use any of Gothard's material in preparing my sermons. Thank you for posting this. God bless you.
J.B. September 24, 2014 Reply

"Filled with assorted lists of sinful attitudes and healthy life principles, to me it smelled not just of fresh plastic vinyl, but of ministry success!"

Haha! I know this is kind of a bit off-topic, but I completely understand this. My family would progressively get more and more Wisdom Booklets and ATI materials in the mail, and I'd always look forward to smelling them and pouring over those cool Greek vocabulary cards. Come to think of it, I think those cards might be my favorite part of the program. :-) Even at the seminars when I attended the Children's Institute, all the materials smelled nice, so it must have been God-ordained, right?
Jerrod Forrest September 24, 2014 Reply

Historians will recall that Red China's Chairman Mao also had a 'little red book' that "The New Statesman" describted thusly: 'At the peak of its popularity, Mao's bible was the most printed book in the world. It attained the status of a sacred, holy text during the Cultural Revolution...'. Neither tome, in looking back, can lay claim to anything close to a commendable track-record, as regards positively-changed lives. :)
- Anna September 24, 2014 Reply
  
  Haha, I thought of the same thing. I'm not from the IBLP world (although weirdly, I've lived about ten minutes from their headquarters for the better part of twenty years without any idea what it was) and only recently discovered it and this site while researching legalism and its associated doctrines. The first time I saw a reference to a red notebook and the hammer iconography, I suddenly wondered how aware Bill Gothard was of various communist objects and imagery, like Mao's little red book and the Soviet hammer and sickle. Surely a man of his generation and conservative leanings would have run far, far away from such "pinko commie" images.
Douglas Hornok September 25, 2014 Reply

Stan, Thanks as always for your insights. I've appreciated everything you've written through the years. I'm not sure when I got rid of my "Red Notebook" but it is now gone. I'm not sure I ever opened it after I attended the seminars but have met many who believed it to be inspired. Thanks also to "Recovering Grace."
Mary Olive September 26, 2014 Reply

Hi Kevin,

Thanks much for your comments. I see that you feel strongly about some of my statements regarding Bill Gothard and adoption. It seems like I triggered a couple of your sore spots. Please forgive me for my insensitivity. I didn't know what you'd personally experienced with Bill Gothard about adoption.

It sounds almost like my experience with my two old friends when I asked for their recommendations when I was attempting to adopt the girls from Liberia. I still don't understand why they felt compelled to rain on my parade. My oldest daughter didn't like what I was attempting to do either, so I capitulated. I don't know if it was the best decision, but it seemed so at the time. I dropped the two friends, but not my daughter and her family.

It sounds like Bill Gothard was/is given more power that he should have as a mere human. Even if he was/is delusional and thought/thinks he was/is God's mouthpiece, we know better, right? His statements are his opinion no matter how strongly he may believe they come from God.

I believe he is a person who still needs our compassion even though he did not show it toward others according to your accounts. My experience with him is somewhat similar. He didn't tell me what I wanted to hear, but I did what I thought was best.
kevin September 26, 2014 Reply

Mary,

There is no need to apologize. I don't feel you were being insensitive towards me at all. Sometimes with the written word, the tone and context of what we are communicating is a little lost, but you did not hit any sore spots that caused me trigger reactions or anything of the sort. I feel strongly that Gothard's teachings about adoption are wrong and I am more than happy to share my experience and views about why I think his teachings are wrong with others. I'm glad that we had the exchange on adoption and I'm sorry if my dislike of Gothard's positions came across as if I have an issue with your position.
On the contrary, you are a great example of what I would hope people would do more often- you did what you thought was best, regardless of what Bill Gothard told you.
I think we might disagree somewhat on how we interpret Care Booklet # 5. I see it coming from a much darker place, as well as Gothard's adoption views in general. I'm going to speak my mind and stand against any organization that discourages adoption, and encourages parents to send their adopted children away; just as I feel that I need to speak my mind against an organization that minimizes sexual abuse and blames the victims. Not so much a trigger reaction, as a deep personal belief that these teachings do harm and the need to speak up. It's hard when I see friends hurt by his teachings and other friends who continue to be drawn in by the promise of success that they peddle.

"His statements are his opinion no matter how strongly he may believe they come from God."

So true. Thank you for saying this. I just wish that others still in the system were able to recognize this, and IBLP was honest about what they are really peddling. Then again, if the organization were to change the title of their teachings appropriately instead of " God's Non-Optional Principles" It would read something like this: "Bill Gothard's Personal Opinion of the Principles You Should Follow." Just doesn't have the same sizzle, and I don't think they'd get many buyers looking for that guaranteed succeed.

I am really glad that you chose to adopt and you did so in an environment, IBLP, that was hostile to adoptions. Good for you. Most people in our lives were very supportive of our adoption, at every phase. We did have one person who tried to discourage us, our pastor. It was not in a confrontational way, but we did not listen to him and knew that he was wrong. Yes, he was actually a friend of Bill Gothard's, although his opposition I don't think had anything to do with what Gothard taught. I guess I'm glad that I never subscribed to the Authority teaching, or we would have been obligated to obey his caution.
Julia Fetters September 27, 2014 Reply

Great article.

As an aside, if it is true that Bill Gothard is starting up a new ministry, he need to be sure and have OTHERS teach on sexual purity. He needs to be present when they do so, not be the person in charge of hiring said teacher, and he needs total accountability at all times.

Really, we do not need him leading another "ministry". He needs to be in the ministry of asking forgiveness of those he has so deeply wounded and then let others minister and clean up after him. Just saying... it is the truth.
May he quietly draw closer and closer to the Saviour.
Dave September 29, 2014 Reply

Still nothing about the "new ministry"? Nothing on Google or Bing except the mention in this thread. Nothing on Gothard's site or IBLP. Has anyone else received the email?

Mary Olive, would you be willing to share the email with us?
- Mary Olive September 29, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Dave,
  
  What I have already shared has brought criticism and chastisement by a few of the more outspoken contributors toward a man who has already been humiliated and even libeled on this site.
  
  All I was attempting to do was to present possible explanations for the origin of some of the precepts of IBLP/ATI. They are only educated guesses based upon my experience, at best, or simply my opinions, for what that's worth.
  
  Several wrote, in no uncertain terms, the conditions they mandate for Bill Gothard, as if they, themselves, have some authority to pass sentence over him.
  
  I understand this a therapeutic site, but roasting a person over and over does not seem to me to benefit even those who choose to do it. It certainly doesn't inspire me,
  
  I believe any person deserves to be treated with respect, no matter what he has done. And yes, I am aware of how Bill Gothard has offended many of those who followed him.
  
  I thought my revealing that we'd received an email from Bill Gothard on September 9, 2014, would help you see that he is attempting to go on and do what is right, perhaps, in the only way he knows. I think now I probably was wrong, and am, indeed, short-sighted and naïve for thinking that compassion might be appropriate for all who've been hurt.
  
  I'm sorry, but I am no match for you all.
  - Brumby September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    @Mary Olive: For me, a regular reader of RG, I struggle to understand your posts here, because I am still not sure of your intent nor point of reference. I am not sure what directly brings you to RG, nor what drives your passion here.
    
    You have proven to be a continual and committed member of the RG community, clearly devoting time and mental/emotional energy investment. For the most part, your posts have an objective tone and aim to be neutral. At times, your words put yourself or usually others down, and seem defensive or offensive in response to others' responses to you.
    
    Because of your objective stance, it's hard to know why you're here and what you mean. You can be validating, devil's advocate, "pro-BG," sweet, compassionate... you bring a lot of flavors to the table, and it's confusing. I am not faulting you for that, my intent is that maybe my personal feedback may help you understand the dynamics that you're seeing/feeling.
    
    This is the comment section, not the argument or debate section. To me, a comment would generally be one person's thoughts issued in a one-way fashion. Don't worry about answering every response and challenge. Contribute what you can or about which you feel passionate. It's okay to leave a "hostile" remark unanswered and unclaimed.
  - Dave September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    Mary Olive - you wrote:
    
    "On September 9, 2014, my husband and I received an e-mail from Bill Gothard announcing his plans to form a ministry called Total Success Power Teams for Men. I've been waiting for someone to mention it on this site. I imagined angry reactions by some of the staunch supporters here."
    
    Since none of us had heard of this before and only a handful of people responded to the idea at all, it seems that much of the "criticism and chastisement" you have suffered on this topic has been either in your imagination or has been in comments received by you more negatively than necessary. Why did you bring this up if you expected "angry reactions" and then why did you feel overwhelmed by the few people who even mentioned the idea of a new ministry?
    
    Of course we have opinions on what Bill should do in the future. You have opinions on his teachings of the past, even to the point where you suggest that he has some type of mental disorder. The comments here have been neither unusual nor strong, particularly regarding the new ministry.
    
    Your reaction puzzles me.
    - Mary Olive September 30, 2014
      
      Hi Dave and All, including GuyS, Tangent and Brumby,
      
      I see how you might be puzzled, so I will attempt to answer your questions so you might gain a better understanding of what I was trying to say.
      
      I waited for others to disclose Bill Gothard's email regarding his new ministry, and when it didn't occur, I thought it might be fair to let those who participate on this site know.
      
      I don't feel comfortable sharing the actual email from Bill Gothard in its entirety to you all because I do not have his permission to do so. What I did reveal was within my right, although I may lose his esteem for doing so.
      
      I "imagined angry reactions by some of the staunch supporters here" because of my previous experiences on this site with the strong opinions of some the commentators issued to others they thought were "Gothardites". I see it might have been better if I'd kept that comment to myself.
      
      I went to my first seminar in 1998 and it was through my endorsement that my daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren went to the seminars, Children's Institutes and joined ATI. While I participated by going to the seminars (Basic, Advanced, Anger Resolution, etc.)and ATI family conferences and chose to participate in what I thought was appropriate, my daughter and her family tried to follow the rules exactly.
      
      My oldest grandson went to Oklahoma City and taught Character First in public schools for a time. He received a GED, joined the Navy and got married.
      
      My next oldest grandson chose to go to public high school as a junior (after they dropped out of ATI) and graduated with a high school diploma. He joined the Air Force. Both now have the opportunity to pursue paid degrees of their choosing.
      
      In 2007 my daughter and son-in-law dropped out of ATI mostly, she said, because of the opposition by their pastor, the cost, and the limited opportunities for accredited higher education. They had considered Verity College for my oldest grandson but it wasn't accredited then.
      
      I guess I'm a coward when it comes to receiving negative feedback, because some of the responses I've read on this site have been, in my opinion, less than charitable. I didn't come here to stir the pot, so to speak, but to present information that some might find helpful. I see now how my responses were considered negative and bias. I fell short many times. Sorry about that.
      
      I was looking for precipitating events that might explain some of Bill Gothard's choices when I suggested he might have Founder's Syndrome, Asperger's Syndrome or even be delusional in some areas. If his followers were deceived by what he taught for such a long period of time, I thought it might be possible he was also.
      
      For myself, I wear long skirts at church, conferences, and seminars. I wear plain colored tops, but not red. I wear no make-up and do not color my hair which is mid-length. I attempt to allow men to take the lead (I was single for almost 26 years after my children's father divorced me to marry his 23-year-old receptionist.)
      
      My current husband is a wonderful example of a reformed patriarch (he grew up with it) and we enjoy each day of our lives together. He and I went to the Sacramento ATI Family Conferences together until this last year. We enjoyed hearing the speakers and seeing so much musical talent. Bill Gothard was humble and kind, and although I wondered about some of the discrepancies I saw, I figured it was because he is human like the rest of us. I would have liked it if he'd been perfect, of course.
      
      I was amazed at what the ministry had accomplished over the years. Yes, I was a little disturbed by the elitist attitudes of some of the families, but I've experienced a lot of that from others by having a developmentally disabled son. I wish I were tougher at times, but my spiritual gift appears to be mercy and I know it sometimes affects my interpretation of things.
      
      I do understand the pain some are suffering here. My parents divorced when I was five years old and my father died when I was eleven. I work with inpatients who have lost everything and have given up hope. Some are even Christians.
    - Brumby September 30, 2014
      
      @Mary Olive: This was very helpful, thank you! You didn't have to share all the information, but you chose to, and I appreciate that. You're not a coward - it takes courage to post true beliefs and opinions in a public forum. Please don't say things like that you're a coward, because it makes me feel like that's what you think that others think here about you. It's not true.
    - Dave September 30, 2014
      
      Thanks Mary - for your openness and your heart. I do understand a certain fear when wading in this pool, but overall I have found RG to be a place of love and acceptance. There is even a love for Bill G here, but that love will at least try to prevent him from hurting others in the future. We have not yet seen any indication that he understands what he has done and a new ministry idea appears to confirm that.
  - Flower September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Mary,
    
    I read a story this morning that can help put some things in perspective for you. There was a woman named Perla who had a habit of drunk driving. She was continually warned by the judges about her bad behavior, but no action was ever taken; no more than a finger wagging that is. Her attorney always won out saying she was not responsible for her actions; her drinking was a result of unresolved child-hood problems. She was out on bail once again after a spree of drunk driving that damaged several cars. But this night, her drunk driving cost the life of a husband/father named Frank that was on his way home from work. Now Franks family is going to be more concerned that no action was ever taken against Perla being the authorities were well aware of her irresponsible actions than they are in showing compassion for Perla. Whether or not Perla had past issues, her current irresponsible actions have cost someone their life.
    
    Yes, I do agree with you that roasting someone alive has little benefit, but there are a lot of hurting people that just need some space and a safe place to deal with the very real losses they have experienced as a result of Mr. Gothard’s irresponsible, reckless use of Scripture, his teachings and living. We can only view Mr. Gothard’s desire to start yet another ministry as one thing…getting behind the wheel of another car and wreaking havoc on yet some more innocent lives.
    
    I hope this helps, Mary.
    - Mary Olive September 30, 2014
      
      Hi Flower,
      
      I thought your analogy about the drunk driver and Bill Gothard was nicely presented.
      
      Thank you for helping put some things into perspective for me.
      
      Perhaps a caveat might be issued to those who might wish to join his new ministry. I don't believe there are grounds that would prevent him from starting one.
  - Aila H September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    Hi Mary,
    I've wanted to respond, but have had no time until now. It appears that while others have been reacting to what BG has done, and how it has affected them, you have been focused on trying to understand why he has done the things he has. I've found your comments helpful. Many years ago I was on the board of a non-profit that had horrific problems due to the CEO's inability to be accountable to the Board. I found the definition of Founders Syndrome useful in explaining why things happened the way they did, in the organization I was involved with.
    
    I believe some months ago you, or maybe someone else referenced Narcissistic Personality Disorder. After doing some research on that condition, I was amazed that I could finally understand the behavior of an extended family member. Your comments about the Amish and Rumspringa sometime back, also inspired more reading and research on that group. I have a dear friend who was raised in a similar religious setting. In our area we have Dunkard Brethern, and Old German Baptists. They are not as isolated as the Amish, but many of their worship practices, and clothing requirements are similar. And they do have lots of rules. I think many of your assessments are accurate. But understanding why someone has done something does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.
    
    I find nearly all the comments helpful, and I am not offended by what you have said, but I have not suffered the way many here have. I encountered BG teachings through friends years ago, I rejected them because I could see the good works legalism dripping from all his principles, and I was surprised that he was still around. I found this site after hearing he had been placed on leave by his board back in March. I am incredibly sad to read of all the suffering people have endured as a result of his teaching, which Is why I cannot imagine anyone thinking he is qualified to begin a new ministry.
    
    So now I am incredulous to read you say, you see no grounds that would prevent him from starting a new ministry. This is what I was trying to express a few days ago, the name alone disqualifies the ministry. Men in a patriarchal, chain of command system need to learn how to be loving servants in their families, not power hungry total success team members. Bill Gothard still doesn't get it, and in my opinion any ministry that he was leading would create more problems that it could ever solve.
    - Mary Olive September 30, 2014
      
      Hi Aila,
      
      It's good to hear from you again.
      
      I think if I'd said I see no
      legal grounds that would prevent him from starting a new ministry, it might have been closer to what I was attempting to say.
      
      Personally, I'm not concerned because by virtue of not responding to his invitation and by revealing the existence of the email on this site, we have surely eliminated ourselves from becoming involved.
      
      I understand your concern about his proposed new ministry and in a previous post, I suggested a "caveat" (caveat emptor) might be given to those who are interested.
      
      I'm not as sure as you are that he "still doesn't get it." I said previously posted that "I hope Bill Gothard has learned from his previous mistakes" and someone corrected my comments, so I hesitate to say that again.
      
      "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best" is what we say at work when a person comes in after a suicide attempt, such as an overdose where they've been intubated in ICU.
      
      It would be foolish for me to believe that person, who might say they would never try to commit suicide again. Over time, though, they may prove by their actions they have learned from that mistake.
      
      In other words, actions do speak louder than words. This is just my take on the situation at hand with Bill Gothard.
  - John K October 1, 2014 Reply
    
    "What I have already shared has brought criticism and chastisement by a few of the more outspoken contributors toward a man who has already been humiliated and even libeled on this site"
    To say this website has "libeled" Bill Gothard is a serious charge. Can you please elaborate specifically on actual statements made on this website that "libeled" Bill Gothard?
    - John K October 1, 2014
      
      I'm not sure how my reply about "libeled" ended up here, as it was replying to one of the other comments from Mary Olive.
    - Mary Olive October 2, 2014
      
      Hi Don and John K,
      
      It's my understanding, for review and to put it simply, that defamation is the communication of a false statement which harms the reputation of an individual. Written defamation is called libel, while spoken defamation is called slander.
      
      When I wrote "toward a man who has already been humiliated and even libeled on this site" in one of my previous comments, I was not referring to the articles that Recovering Grace published or republished, but about some of the comments I've read since coming to this site in April of this year. Recovering Grace seems to be very careful in screening their publications.
      
      I understand that in order for libel to be actionable, fault must be proven (negligence if for a private individual and actual malice if for a public figure).
      
      I consider some of the comments to be libelous and not being actionable does not make them less so, in my opinion.
      
      Since you asked me to give actual statements, John, I will reluctantly quote a few of the comments I considered questionable.
      
      I do not offer my opinion as to the validity of the statements I quote, or whether they were written with actual malice, but merely that I consider them possibly libelous.
      
      1. "Gothard certainly paved a road with his so called "biblical" intentions but this road was really leading people to disaster and hell on earth."
      
      2. "Bill will most likely never repent or attempt any real reconciliation with anyone because he is most likely not saved. He's a wolf and always has been."
      
      3. "The set-up of ATI which just ended with it's students working for him in the name of internships and mentoring is fraudulent."
      
      4. "But Bill has certainly clouded up a very basic moral foundation with his extreme micro management which has no basis in any reality but Bill's sicko mind."
      
      5. "IBLP is a cult. EVERYTHING about IBLP fits EXACTLY into the pattern of any "Christian" type cult you might want to name. Gothard fits EXACTLY into the pattern of any cult leader."
      
      I am not quoting these comments to judge the people who wrote them, but merely to answer your question. I don't believe actual malice is the intent of the authors of these, and other, questionable comments, including my own.
    - Mary Olive October 2, 2014
      
      Oops! I need to preface my last sentence "On second thought" to avoid contradicting myself.
  - Don Rubottom October 1, 2014 Reply
    
    Mary, your kindness is a credit to your savior. But extended to BG's critics with the same degree, you could not judge any comments against him as libel. If it were, he would have sued long ago. His history shows he has threatened and is willing to do so, to demand the correction of a public record under threat of suit. RG, however, was organized with clarity about his tactics and has protected itself from his threats.
    As to your willingness to extend the benefit of the doubt to his new venture, if not participate yourselves, let me offer another analogy. Suppose someone in your community had repeatedly raised money from neighbors to develop real estate, and had repeatedly lost that money, through poor planning, incompetence, neglect, and even an occasional embezzlement or other overpayment to himself. Suppose he has lost his license to do business and his credit at the local bank, whose kind officers had invited him to retire quietly so they would never have to give a bad reference on him in future business deals. Now suppose he writes to you and says he is raising money for a new deal that is all legal and well planned. Do you simply wish him luck and decline to participate? Or do you warn your neighbors not to participate in the next disaster? Bill Gothard's engagement with men in a ministry without first resolving all the conflicts he has created and becoming reconciled to all the people he has hurt will teach those men that you can leave bodies along the side of the road and just continue on your journey as if nothing has happened. In the time BG has left on this earth, he has a full plate searching his soul, confessing his sins, making restitution, and publicly warning others not to follow his path of self-delusion and false teaching. And yet we do not hear of even one case of BG contacting anyone and saying "I'm sorry for doing this and that to you." Rather, he is gathering together hearers with itching ears. I do rebuke that and need no authority from anyone to do so. The Bible rebukes such leadership, plainly and consistently. And I pray for his salvation and reconciliation with all from whom he is alienated.
GuyS September 29, 2014 Reply

Hi Mary Olive,

I do not speak for RG.

This is how I see the last 5 days. Lets start by using your example of not following BG's counsel on not remarrying. (to be clear, I am glad you did not follow BG advise) In one way of looking at this, I could say that you passed a sentence on BG's counsel and refused it. Again, that is good. However, here is the big problem Mary, how old were you? How much life experience did you have at that time? (these are all rhetorical)

What if you did not have the maturity to say no to BG? What if humanly speaking, BG ruined your life for decades because you followed his remarriage advise? Many of us who have been in this situation and who did not say no to BG have suffered for decades. You might argue, "That is what you get for being young and immature and getting sucked into a cult. I was smart enough to see the cult for what it was when I made my marriage decision." (of course you would not say this Mary, you are too kind, however please allow me to make my point)

By my definition, if you were in the cult at the time BG gave you that counsel, you would have said yes. So you were not in the cult. Good. Once again, I am glad you said no, and I would guess that most on RG would say the same. Please have compassion on those of us who were in the cult and suffered for decades. (if you knew my story Mary, you would weep. I have only told bits of it)

Please allow me to make another point by using your language, (not to trap you.) Five days ago you kindly spoke of the older generation: "Unless you are in that generation, or, as we sometimes say, have walked in his shoes, you probably won't understand why he's doing this. It's common now to disregard our elders."

It is possible that many on RG have suffered more at BG's hand than you can imagine. It is possible that you have not walked in our shoes. It is also possible and common now for us older ones (I am 62) to disregard the youth. (remember the "cry baby generation discussion?) I can not speak for the young people on RG but I am guessing they would like to have the same compassion you have for the older generation and BG.

Mary you also said, "What I have already shared has brought criticism and chastisement..." Nobody has it "out for you" Mary. This is how all newcomers get treated if they bring up the points you have.

I said 2 days ago to a new (I think) person posting that the RG crowd was a tough crowd. Even though it is a tough crowd, I come to it every day. I have never met a group on the web of such kind and smart people. Sure they are a tough crowd, but they survived BG and lived to tell about it, and are helping each other heal, and are warning others of the danger, and are.... you get my point.

Mary you also said, "...as if they, themselves, have some authority to pass sentence over him."

Yes, I, GuyS, have some authority to pass sentence over BG's behavior and doctrine. I chose to judge it evil. It is what I would expect from a vile heathen in a nice clean blue suit with pretty black hair. Someone who goes to great deception to groom young ladies for his perverse pleasure. He has no problem destroying anyone who gets in his way. He will protect his image at any cost in my judgement. In no uncertain terms, the conditions I mandate for BG to start with is for him to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

Just a guess but maybe my "passing sentence" is what bothers you the most. That is OK. We should be able to disagree. Of course, we should as you brought up earlier, "we love, encourage and pray for" BG.

Mary you said in your next to the last sentence, "I think now I probably was wrong, and am, indeed, short-sighted and naïve for thinking that compassion might be appropriate for all who've been hurt." I strongly disagree with your analysis of what has happened here the last 5 days with your interaction with RG.

Mary, I do not have it "out for you." I am glad you did not take BG's advise. I am glad you have compassion for BG. I am glad you post here.
Tangent September 30, 2014 Reply

Mary Olive, these commentators have been extremely gentle and compssionare toward you here. If you understood the pain that many have suffered, the destruction of life potential and the division of churches and families caused by Mr. Bill Gothard's teaching, you would see the restraint many have shown here.
- DAVID PIGG September 30, 2014 Reply
  
  On one hand,the comments recently made by Guy S.,and others reflect a compassion perhaps acquired through painfully walking with Christ through a recovery,from a bludgeoning repression at the not so compassioned False pretender,userper,who for 30 years,waylaid the opposition,presented deadly ad hominum attacks, and construed cunningly devised tactics,boiled down to "Is your life without sins?,To cause motives to be questioned,and many voices like mine with my own issues of guilt sin,where I am spiritually,subsided.But not any more; not that I am "not sinning."On the other hand,we must take the weak with us,used as spiritual punching bags,thrown under the bus,waylaid,muted,from the "end justifies the means".Victims of misogyny,some becoming atheists,angry,but not wanting to admit it in the inner depths that this was "allowed by GOD".And so I must say with what voice I have that though this was done for 30 plus years,no it was not allowed by God!Whatever the process and direction my redemption may take,loving justice is hating injustice,disallowing cruelty,means asking hardcore disturbing questions to the calloused willful abuser,for the sake of the present and future helpless,to be those Christ chose to identify with.May God deliver us from "Spiritual Supermen".And so the path Bill Gothard may indeed choose to take,with his perspective,will be different than my own,unless someone asks probes disturbs,troubles,for the sake of life's potential recovery.THAT IS INDEED RECOVERING GRACE.
  - kevin September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    "Whatever the process and direction my redemption may take,loving justice is hating injustice,disallowing cruelty,means asking hardcore disturbing questions to the calloused willful abuser,for the sake of the present and future helpless,to be those Christ chose to identify with."
    
    I really like the way you put this David.
  - GuyS September 30, 2014 Reply
    
    David Pigg, I totally agree with Kevin, and I will steal that line.
    
    Thanks for posting and using your voice. So good to see you here. Who would have guessed, after we met 41 years ago, we would be passionate about justice and such?
    
    Dude, if I am going to claim you as a long lost friend, I have to say you need to break your post into paragraphs, maybe every 3 or 5 sentences. Also, do not forget to leave a space after a sentence. I hate to say anything because others might be reading and say, "Brother Guy, speaking of writing skills...."
    
    What can I say except we were both edcuated in goveernmet schols.
    - DAVID PIGG October 1, 2014
      
      Bless you Guy;You can tell I keep going on those long sentences;might use a comma every third time. Thanks Recovering Grace!I myself have 4 interesting strange creatures known I think as females.I thought it was you,but was never sure until now.Your comments are badly needed;thanks for your eloquence.
  - Lindsey October 1, 2014 Reply
    
    Actually, David Pigg, i thought your unusual punctuation made your words read like poetry. :)
    
    I just found this site yesterday. I am grateful for everyone's encouraging posts. I had been feeling very hopeless about getting over my scary, authoritarian upbringing.
    - GuyS October 1, 2014
      
      Hi Lindsey,
      
      David would not say this, but I do not mind bragging about his ink and pencil art work. I am sure your kind comment means a lot to him.
      
      Thanks for dropping by. It is so very cool for you to find others (at Rec Grace) who have struggled like you might have. It has been such healing for me to see the works of darkness brought to the light.
Close Enough October 8, 2014 Reply

http://iblp.org/programs/one-accord-teams/vision
This subject was brought up earlier.

Quite sometime ago I saw this new program on the IBLP website. There was a One Accord manual that I read several times and even saved in my favorites, but it has been taken off the website. The checklist in the manual covered everything in your life that needed to be correct before you/your group could be a success. For example, if you eat artificial colors or sweetners. From the website: TEAM AGENDA Each week a one-accord team will learn one of the commands of Christ with such practical clarity that they will be able to easily apply it to their own lives and then go home and teach it to their families. After forty-nine weeks, they will have fulfilled the requirements of Jesus to be His disciples: “If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you . . . . So shall ye be my disciples” (John 15:7–8).

This group came very close to replacing the local church as the man would be accountable to his leaders and even participate in communion together.(plus other examples) I suspect the Total Success program has replaced this one.?
- Mary Olive October 8, 2014 Reply
  
  Hi Close Enough,
  
  Thanks for the information about the One Accord teams on IBLP "quite some time ago". Interesting.
  
  I don't see the Total Success Power Teams-For Men Committed to Genuine Love and Total Success "program" being affiliated with IBLP. I understand it was a private overture by Bill Gothard that was launched on September 8, 2014. Since my husband did not sign up for it, we've heard no more about it.
  
  By the way, as a nurse, I know most artificial colors and sweeteners aren't good for the body. Some people may even have a reaction from ingesting them. Not sure how it might affect a group's success, though, unless some of the members who used them go sick because of it. I understand, however, that quite some time ago, this information was considered innovative and important. There are so many substances on the market now that are considered potentially dangerous to the human body, I think it's wise for people to be careful.
  - MatthewS October 8, 2014 Reply
    
    "One-Accord Power Teams" were an IBLP thing 4 years ago, in 2010 http://iblp.org/programs/one-accord-teams/vision
    
    The IBLP store at http://store.iblp.org used to have a book for sale called "What Every Man Needs." Part of the sales pitch was:
    
    Men are in bondage to anger, lust, debt, and deadly stress. Wives are discouraged and disillusioned. Sons and daughters are bonded to their friends through social media, cell phones, texting, etc.
    
    There Is Only One Answer!
    - MatthewS October 8, 2014
      
      btw, the subtitle of that book was "A One-Accord Power Team for 7 Vital Goals."
      
      They have partially taken one of their pages down, but on the sidebar you can still see the book (it just goes to yet another broken link on their site) http://iblp.org/programs/one-accord-power-teams
      
      There is also a broken link to a pdf copy of a "One-Accord Teams Manual" at that page.
    - Don Rubottom October 9, 2014
      
      Just listened to part of this video:
      http://iblp.org/programs/one-accord-teams/training-sessions/session-1-power-one-accord
      Pretty creepy how Bill's voice brings back for me so much affirmation without examination. The fact is he was trying to overcome the growing online truth that was beginning to tear his followers away from him. This video displays a rambling wishfulness: "Why, Lord, can't everyone agree with me so we can transform the world??"
      Of course, it was presented as THE MOST important principle of Christianity. Not Christ in me, but me and Bill of one mind.
      Has anyone ever catalogued all of the "Most" important things Bill taught us? There were probably hundreds of them. Great quote: "loving God, disabling Satan in the City, in the families represented and the young people [blah, blah]..."
    - MatthewS October 9, 2014
      
      oh boy. Well, I made it about 45 seconds in, Don.
      
      Interesting that "THE most important principle in the Christian life" is "the principle of one accord."
      
      The most important principle in the Christian life is the principle of one accord? Seriously, dude?
      
      He does his old verbal shell game then when he says that's what the command in Deut 6:5 and then repeated by Jesus meant when it said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
      
      It's so wild. He presents this in a believable way, but in the first 45 seconds, he delivers two doozies.
      
      1) People would respect Christians more if they saw as us more powerful. (people worship the god that seems most powerful, and we are not appearing to be powerful, therefore, we need to seem more powerful).
      
      2) The "principle of one accord" is what Jesus really had in mind when he said that the greatest command is to love the Lord your God with all your heart.
      
      As to the first, that is more of an appeal to fear or control than to love, seems to me. The message of more power and greater respect does not seem to me to be a clear reflection of the gospel message.
      
      And the second seems just plain outright false to me. You can make anything mean anything with enough effort but Bill's teaching of "one accord" and Jesus' command to love God and love your neighbor are two different things.
    - Don Rubottom October 10, 2014
      
      If Total Success replaces One Accord, does that mean that one accord is no longer The Most Important thing? BG reminds me of that cowboy in the movie City Slickers, who held up one finger to say "there's just one thing". Only BG gets to change the one thing every month, to accommodate his latest snake oil!
    - esbee October 10, 2014
      
      It does not make sense...how can one ever growing ATI family of 12 or more members fit in one Accord?
    - Nancy2 October 10, 2014
      
      Esbee, you are right. They can't. Accords only seat 5. They need a 15 passenger 2014 Chevrolet Express Passenger 3500.
    - kevin October 11, 2014
      
      Don,
      Just watched the video. Well, there's 40 minutes of my life that I can't get back! lol
      
      I think that the video should be either called:
      
      "Miracles for Sale"
      
      or "Snake Oil Salesmanship 101"
      
      He is truly the master of the con. He makes the statement that the one accord principle is the most important principle in a Christian's life. Then here comes the Gothard shuffle, complete with Scripture twisting, connecting seemingly unrelated verses, all the while moving so fast that no one can check their Bibles to see if the verses presented really communicate what he says that they communicate. When Jesus commanded us to love one another with all our hearts, He was really telling us to be in One Accord? Really?
      
      Now that he has convinced people that "One Accord" is the most important commandment given us by Jesus, time to prove it with witness testimonies. The testimonies are, of course, students who paid for his program, Journey to the Heart, and while there they had prayers answered. You see, this magic thing that Bill is calling "One Accord", is something that happens in his Journey program. Never mind that testimonies of answered prayer only show that God answers prayer. No, apparently this is not the point that Bill is making. These testimonies prove that God answers prayers, at the program, when the "One Accord" thingy happens.
      
      All I see him saying is: "And for just $ 799.99, you too can go on a Journey, experience the One Accord and have your prayers answered."
      
      One thing that is creepy, in hindsight, is his strong emphasis on confessing all of your sins to one another. Of course, Scripture tells us to confess our sins to one another. The problem is that Gothard took something Scriptural and used it to fulfill his sexual perversion: interviewing the girls individually,convincing them that they could not experience this powerful thing, unless they confessed their most hidden sinful sexual desires and experiences to him,.....as reported, oftentimes alone with him.
      
      It was the perfect scam. Parents genuinely wanting the best for their children, would happily pay the $ 800 and send them off to the program.
      It created a great profit center, and at the same time sent Gothard a constant stream of naive young girls, with whom he could initiate the sexual predatory grooming process to his heart's content, away from the watchful eye of their parents.
    - Elizabeth D October 11, 2014
      
      YES, Kevin! As I said a while back, Dude is no amateur! Con man extraordinaire, with a significant sexual perversion ... its why there's no baby in the bathwater.
    - Don Rubottom October 11, 2014
      
      I tend to think he'd been doing it so long, he couldn't stop promoting "the most important". Not one of the testimonies really had anything to do with the point of agreement, being of one mind. At most they addressed praying in agreement. Some had nothing to do with agreement at all, Jordan's particularly.
      BG would invite someone with a story to share, but indiscriminately use it for whatever purpose he was promoting at the time.
      If he had been banned by then from employing young girls as personal assistants, he surely shouldn't have been having the Journey one-on-ones with young girls. I can't imagine any father agreeing to that if they had known his history (Alfred possibly excepted).
- MatthewS October 8, 2014 Reply
  
  oh, ha ha, I saw Mary Olive's comment and replied to that. So yeah - what you said, Close Enough :-)
  - Don Rubottom October 10, 2014 Reply
    
    Do you think BG "took back" the One Accord Power Team manual to recast it as the Total Success Power Team manual? No telling what kind of copyright discussions BG is having with IBLP these days.
    If BG is not qualified to teach, why do they leave his teachings up on the webpage, particularly with no disclaimer?
    - rob war October 13, 2014
      
      Don, do you know how old that video is from the link you gave?
      I am amazed that this man never makes reference at all to Christian history. All he does is create a fantasy over the "first century church family" and then seems to proceed that we are so bad because we (modern Christians) are not like the first century Christians. He completely ignores conflicts recorded in Acts and the other NT books and completely ignores established Church authority equally recorded in the NT. The earliest Christians were not any more "powerful" than those of us today. Bill seems to base his ideas on fantasies of the earliest Christians who basically were on the run due to the threat of persecution. His One Accord is based on being one accord with Bill's ideas not on historic Christian doctrine and dogma that were defined and hashed out in the first 400 years of Christianity. That means there were arguments and disagreements and debates among Christians which gave us our current Bible, doctrine about who Jesus is, the trinity etc. Bill is off in la la land here.
    - Don Rubottom October 15, 2014
      
      Based on Jordan Webster's age and the lifespan of the "Journey" program I don't think it can be more than about 4 years old.
- Close enough October 13, 2014 Reply
  
  Quite a funny coincidence that my sister sent this to me today. We've never discussed this. http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/10/12/bill-gothards-new-programministry-total-success-power-teams/
  - rob war October 14, 2014 Reply
    
    Yes I read the same blog and thought it was pretty good.
Craig Lander March 4, 2020 Reply

Ah, The Red Book. Just like Mao's!

After letting it collect dust for about 2 years I took a band-saw to it and made it into "four editions" so to speak. I applied the same treatment to Character Sketches.

The grand finale was Book Flambe' in which those heretical "books were cooked" (an accountant's term) in the woodstove.

I never admired or like Gothard's publications. Their entire presentment is similar to low quality furniture having a superficial appearance of quality but covered with the finest contact paper and an inner core of particle board. In other words- junk.

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