Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and IBLP

You are here:

Home
Featured Article
Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and IBLP

Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and IBLP

28 March 2018, 01:30

Dear Recovering Grace Reader,

On February 26, 2018, the former plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles released the following joint statement:

Due to the unique complexities of this case, including the statutes of limitation, we have made the difficult decision to voluntarily dismiss our lawsuit against Bill Gothard and The Institute in Basic Life Principles. We want to make it abundantly clear that by dismissing our lawsuit at this time, we are not recanting our experiences or dismissing the incalculable damage that we believe Gothard has done by his actions and certain teachings. Nor are we disregarding that his organization chose to protect themselves instead of those under their care.

Shortly after the release of this statement, Bill Gothard went on a verbal offensive against the former plaintiffs and against Recovering Grace, releasing statements through both his Facebook page and a website run by a self-described paid member of his legal team. One of these statements exposes private medical and deeply personal family information about a former plaintiff who released a personal statement after the case was dropped—information gleaned by Gothard’s legal team as part of the discovery phase of the lawsuit and by Gothard personally during counseling sessions with the plaintiff several years earlier.

In the wake of the lawsuit dismissal, we have received reports that Bill Gothard and his team have attempted multiple contacts with former plaintiffs, their family members, and their friends in order to pursue “reconciliation” on his terms. There are also reports that he has threatened further legal action against the plaintiffs if they refuse to meet with him and if they continue to speak out. Additionally, the aforementioned self-described member of Gothard’s legal team has contacted Recovering Grace, hinting at legal action if we post or share anything else on our Facebook page and, presumably, on our website.

When Recovering Grace began in 2011, we did so with a desire to expose the destructive effects of the teachings of Bill Gothard and the organizations he founded, that generations of former followers might find understanding, hope, and healing. At our launch, we focused on posting theological articles and personal narratives from various writers who represented a unique “insider’s view” on these teachings and their effects. Openly publishing the substance of countless conversations among those affected has given all of us the opportunity to contemplate how those teachings—and their attempted implementation—have continued to affect our thinking, our relationships, and our lives.

In 2012, Recovering Grace began receiving reports of alleged misconduct by Bill Gothard himself, including allegations of unwelcome physical contact, misconduct in private counseling, and failure to report abuse of minors. In order to warn others, we eventually posted narratives by several individuals who alleged experiencing these behaviors firsthand and were willing to speak publicly of what happened to them. We were aided in this endeavor by a previous generation of Gothard employees, volunteers, and followers, whose documentation demonstrated the ongoing nature of these patterns through the turbulent early years of these ministries. In June 2013, we published a public letter to Bill Gothard calling him to repentance, and in February 2014, we posted a call for Gothard’s resignation from Christian ministry.

On Thursday, February 27, 2014, World magazine broke the news that the IBLP board of directors had placed Bill Gothard on administrative leave while they undertook a review of the allegations against him. Though their internal investigation failed to reach out to most of the individuals who had published accounts on Recovering Grace, the IBLP board issued a statement in June 2014 stating, “Mr. Gothard has acted in an inappropriate manner, and the Board realizes the seriousness of his lack of discretion and failure to follow Christ’s example of being blameless and above reproach.” They concluded, “At this time the Board unanimously agrees that Mr. Gothard is not permitted to serve in any counseling, leadership, or Board role within the IBLP ministry.” It is worth noting that IBLP resisted repeated requests from both legal teams that worked for the plaintiffs to disclose the results of their internal investigation.

In late 2014 through 2016 our publishing slowly tapered off. There were, and continue to be, many personal stories to tell and many teachings to dissect, but there are now many other venues for these stories and discussions. And so, in light of Gothard’s removal from the IBLP organization, IBLP’s stated promise to reevaluate his teachings, and the robust discussion of these issues facilitated in many settings, our team of volunteers went on a hiatus from publishing new content. Several of our team members also took time to focus on the business of life: cross-country moves, major career changes, callings to other areas of ministry, and even the births of children. While our team has continued to answer e-mails and maintain a Facebook presence, and although the website has remained open for discussions among readers in the article comment sections, we have not been otherwise engaged publicly.

In 2015, several former ATI students filed a lawsuit that soon encompassed IBLP, Bill Gothard, and specific former IBLP staffers. Some of the plaintiffs had published parts of their stories through Recovering Grace, some were known to us but had chosen not to publish, and others were previously unknown to us. Recovering Grace had no financial interest or investment, and no formal involvement in the lawsuit, although some of us have been privileged to privately talk with, cry with, and cheer for the plaintiffs, and to provide moral support as fellow survivors. The plaintiffs and their lawyers were in control of every aspect of their case, and we hold a deep admiration and respect for their efforts to advocate for themselves and for other survivors.

In late February 2018, we were told that, despite the merits of the case, the plaintiff’s attorneys had suggested that they discontinue their suit due to a couple of factors:

Even with a win in court, the emotional toll the next several months or years would take on their personal lives would be a lot from which to recover.
The attorneys worked for the plaintiffs on contingency, and it was becoming apparent that, with mounting statute of limitations issues, a threatened countersuit from Gothard, and very little expected in monetary damages to cover legal expenses, it would be difficult to continue.

After a few weeks of heart-wrenching consideration, the plaintiffs agreed to drop the case with the option to re-file within the next year if they so choose. We at Recovering Grace applaud the plaintiffs for their courage in fighting this battle in a human court of law, and we acknowledge that justice is now in the hands of a higher court.

After all that has transpired, we stand by our mission to aid others in the process of healing from the destructive effects of Gothard’s teachings, and we stand alongside all survivors of spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. We are heartened to see so many former Gothard students, volunteers, staffers, and followers find their voices through blogs, interviews, and discussion forums, and we appreciate those who have continued to reach out to us with their stories. We hope our website continues to serve as a resource to those seeking to understand and recover from the damaging effects of Bill Gothard’s teachings and systems, and we are grateful for the many readers who have joined us in shedding light on the issues and pointing hurting people to the reality of God’s grace and truth.

The Recovering Grace Team

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

Featured Article

188 Comments

Linn March 28, 2018 Reply

I feel so bad for so those who filed the lawsuit as the disappointment must be so heavy. However, there stand for the truth about Gothard and his practices has made many wary of both the man and his teachings. I pray that God will provide the healing the survivors need, as well as protection from any continued onslaughts by Gothard and his legal team.
Amie Algea March 28, 2018 Reply

I am personally grateful to the Plaintiffs for being courageous enough to stand up and tell the truth. I imagine some or all of them faced some censure from friends and family. Bill Gothard has been exposed and even if he never takes responsibility for what he did, they have made it possible for current and future families to have an option. When my parents jumped on the crazy Gothard bandwagon, it was after the first scandal, and being brand new Christians they just took everything he taught as truth. They were never told that there had been some shady business up in Illinois. Of course now internet makes information freely available, but without the Plaintiffs' actions there might only have been little blogs or chats, now there is full and clear truth. I just hope the Plaintiffs feel a sense of satisfaction because they have made a difference.
Julia March 28, 2018 Reply

Thank you so much RG and the courageous plaintiffs. Thank you. You have helped us more than you can ever know.
I started a blog in my attempts to help others.

https://simplythinking675545448.wordpress.com/
David Pigg March 29, 2018 Reply

I wanted to throw my voice in with the voices having known,briefly seen or seen on a long term basis the ongoing damage done by this man to this day unrecalcitrant.I wanted to condemn the condemner,to bring some help for who may have been suppressed, muzzled,and persecuted by natural religion.I am saddened by the present galvanized bullying,but not surprised.To what can I offer for the denials,obfuscations,and coercians?Anger,prayer,and a hope that however far down the road justice may come;that it will indeed come,for anyone with any clear honest appraisal will never come to acknowledge that this travesty is justice.Natural religion with its supramoral veneer can never replace the light.This is a dark day.
kevin March 29, 2018 Reply

Thank you Recovering Grace for giving support to those in need of support and for giving a voice to those whose voices had been muzzled. Thank you especially to the brave women, for going public about what this man did to you and for taking action. I'm sure the past 3 years have been very difficult emotionally and you were up against an adversary with deep pockets. Although the case was withdrawn and full justice was not served, much has been achieved by your bravery in coming out. 1) Your testimonies led to an internal investigation at IBLP, leading to the removal of Bill Gothard. He is no longer in a position to have access to teenage girls. 2) You have exposed the true nature of IBLP and Bill Gothard to the world. All who have ears, eyes and reason now know the truth. 3) You are part of a much larger movement that no longer accepts sexual abuse and harassment as the norm.
God bless you all and I pray for your speedy recovery from this ordeal and healing for all that you have been through.
rob war March 29, 2018 Reply

Are the editors at RG aware of any attempts to bring Bill back to the helm at IBLP? Are they going to stand by their previous reasons on why he was ultimately disband? Maybe there is some justice in this in that he was ultimately and finally removed from IBLP ministry and whatever attempts he has had in trying to go on in other ministry have not been successful (as well as his "28" self-published "books"). At his age of 83, it doesn't look like he is going anywhere and his supposed focus on men is telling in that there must have been a problem with surrounding himself with young women. Whatever time he has left on this earth, it is also highly doubtful that he will end up with the respect and praise that Billy Graham received when he was finally called home to heaven. And for those looking for final justice, obscurity after many years in public ministry in quite a final ending.
- kevin March 30, 2018 Reply
  
  Rob,
  Bill will be returned to the helm of IBLP........in Alfred's dreams. Seriously, I can't see this happening.
  I'm not a RG editor, but here are my thoughts.
  IBLP has refused to release the report for the internal investigation that they had their attorney conduct, though it was requested by the plaintiffs in the court case. I assume that they exercised Attorney Client Privilege in refusing to do so. Following the findings of the investigation, Bill was removed. Although they did not interview the victims, their investigation found something serious enough that Bill had to go. For things that happened in the past, the board can claim ignorance and that they had no knowledge of the things that Bill was doing in those private counseling meetings with the girls. But, going forward, they can no longer claim ignorance. To bring a man back in the fold who has been accused of such things? The liability to IBLP would be off the charts, should there be a future victim.
  - rob war March 30, 2018 Reply
    
    Yes, I agree with you. His age is also a factor and considering the current climate of #metoo and a number of big name pastors that have to now step down, it would seem very unlikely.
    - kevin April 2, 2018
      
      I'll look for Bill back at the helm of IBLP, about the time that Jello Pudding re-hires Bill Cosby as their spokesperson, and Hertz Rent a Car starts running new commercials with OJ Simpson running through the airport again.
Nicole Gardner April 1, 2018 Reply

Kevin,
I agree; once a board removes (as opposed to suspending) anybody re. the kinds of things Bill included in the “apology” letter (“I have never touched a girl with sexual intent”- statement in which he notably left out the minutes- long-full-front-embracing, laying staff down next to himself under blankets, stroking thighs, waiting until they were in bed to come pounding on their dorm doors to hug them, appointing them a male *underwear expert* to advise them what panties to wear, etc.,etc, etc.) they’ve admitted that his integrity does not hold up. Even with all that was left out of that *apology* letter, & the blatant falsehood re. sexually charged actions against his students, the board still found that what he did admit to as making him unfit for ministry. Bill added to this, chastising his former board in his interview with The Washington Post, saying how foolish they were to remove him “since only I have the information they need.” Only he had the info re. all he had done to all those girls after getting them alone with himself............ only he had counselor/counselee-privileged information to even further exploit their vulnerabilities............ only he knew exactly what he had done to whom & how many times he had done it to which victim. He basically chalked it all up to the fact that *It’s Complicated.*

Not that any admission like this was even needed following the board’s decision!

It makes me sick to see his unrepentance continue, esp. re. his publication of a former counselee’s medical condition. This only serves to show, though, that he made it worse from the time she was 12. The fact that he admits not to have made her better, instead holding it over her head that she continued in sickness all the months he “helped” her, is blaming & belittling at its worse. At least his violation of HIPPA completely destroys any window of opportunity he may have had to access war veterans. He’ll have to be banned from volunteering at any VA now. The volunteer agreement forms include the promise to honor HIPPA. I’m sorry this gal had to pay the price of Gothard shooting himself down in flames this way.

I cannot thank RG enough for all that their articles & presence have done to help me, a sexual abuse survivor. My life’s experiences with this had been greatly exacerbated by the IBLP’s heretical & abusive paradigm as applied to these instances. I still have the written evidence as drawn for me; hammer-mallet-diamond & the Umbrella diagram, matching those of the earlier seminars & in the Big Red Notebook. I will be retaining these for my personal records for the remainder of my life here on earth. It has been through finding the truth through this site that I have found grace & a voice. I use my real name on here. I have written quite a bit about how IBLP’s other deviancies to what the Bible actually says have likewise deceived me in other ways. I use my real name, not because I need to own such personal ownership of the deception by which I was deceived, but because I finally found the safety of a community that is committed to the truth. I myself stand by my telling of the truth which I have been privileged to do via commenting on this site.

Thank-you, RG, for personally helping me heal through this forum.
Nicole Gardner April 2, 2018 Reply

God bless the plaintiffs who hung on for as long as they could, for giving voice to what they’d gone through. Women are not objects to be disrespected!!!!!

This includes the disrespect of shutting women down from expressing what we dislike about what others have done to us. What a concept!

RG, thank you for providing myself a voice here on this forum, as a commenter. The abuse I have experienced by IBLP-ers using the Umbrella (diagram & all) against me is something I am glad to have spoken-to. I wanted to speak about what I personally have been though with the teachings of the IBLP, as they were cruelly & heretically applied to me. Doing so has helped me heal, & hopefully helped others who perhaps were also likewise blamed for abuse done against them, as I was.

Thank-you for allowing me to tell of my own personal experiences. They were awful. But I’ve been helped to heal by this forum. I’ve used my own name. And I stand by everything I’ve ever said on here. And I still say it: Abuse is never okay!!!! It needed to be called-out.

I’ve never met any of you folk, or emailed or chatted or online chatted with any of you at RG. I’m just grateful to have a voice for my own experiences, & to read what thousands of others have had to say. I am not alone. Thank-you.
- David Pigg April 2, 2018 Reply
  
  Thank you for your eloquent testimony and your human feelings.Our humanity and naiveness exposed our vulnerability.You gave us a voice some of us never had but wanted to.
Don Rubottom April 3, 2018 Reply

RG staff: Thank you very much for hosting this site and allowing us to share with one another. The diversity of views, theologies, experiences and perceptions have greatly helped me understand what was wrong, to see through others' eyes and to speak much more gracefully into pain and confusion.
For those who demand "justice": please remember that the "natural religion" we have spoken of here is basically the law of reaping and sowing, the views of Job's three mistaken friends and the failure to recognize that Justice has been fully dispensed on the cross. Justice cannot be satisfied in any other way consistent with our survival. It is wonderful in that it vindicates God and Truth, but it is an all consuming fire that destroys we sinners.
On the other hand, I would say directly to Mr. Gothard that you cannot seek reconciliation without reconciling the facts. You and your accusers must agree on the facts. If they have slandered you, you may present your evidence (not poor Alfred's speculations and arguments but verifiable facts) for objective people to review and consider. I have not seen your recent statements but if you attack the weaknesses of your accusers, rather than admit or proffer alternative time, place, witness testimony, you are not engaged in reconciliation but reaction. Reconciliation is not ignoring or dismissing truth. It is acknowledging truth together and finding the Grace to appreciate harm and know forgiveness. It is not demanding forgiveness while calling your accuser a liar. It is not hiding the truth behind non-disclosure agreements. It is not payoffs for silence. It is full transparency before the entire church. Go to the John MacArthurs of the world who you have used in the past as shields and ask them how to respond. Stop trying to deny your decades of unaccountability, your rejection of criticism, your foolish notions that did in fact hurt many families. Our wives are our co-regents. They are not our subordinates. Our children are our blessed trust, not our servants and tools. Authority is God's, not man's.
"The rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Sir, despite your pretenses, you were never truly our servant. But rather, you desired us to lord it over our families and you to lord it over whoever would submit to you. That is more shameful than all the petty personal quirks that have come to light. It broke the spirits of thousands who got caught up in your legalism. And it was legalism: "...we know that a person is not justified by works of the law...." "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."
Plaintiffs: Thank you for your courage. It is a simple truth that our human justice is imperfect and inadequate. Statutes of limitation reflect a truth that the more time passes, the more difficult it is to establish facts and find justice. Like all things in this cursed dominion, evidence degrades with time. I was initially concerned that your first lawyer, meaning well, was taking advantage of the process to make a case that was extremely unlikely. But please know that you accomplished much in clarifying your claims, testing your own evidence and calling IBLP to account. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Our system is inadequate to your cause. I am thankful the judge allowed you to make your pleas even if they cannot be resolved. Be confident and know that God defends the defenseless, protects the powerless and elevates the meek. We all thank you and commend you for speaking the truth in love.
To RG: what has become of this stated intention of IBLP to review the false teachings? Is there an open door for us to participate, or are they hopelessly bound to the "system" that entrapped them? By now, serious scholars should have been assembled to address what has misled millions, but I see and hear of no such thing. Sad to say.
I pray that these dialogues may continue. I yearn to hear more of your stories, please submit to editors if you can articulate your journeys and discoveries that are freeing you. And let us encourage one another to love and good deeds!
- rob war April 3, 2018 Reply
  
  Wow Don, so well put and brilliant too! Question for the lawyer, how easy or hard is it to be successful in slander suits?
  - Don Rubottom April 9, 2018 Reply
    
    Any "he said she said" is hard to win. He would not be left looking sympathetic after all the accusers testified to his misdeeds, particularly in light of his admissions to stroking hair and playing footsie! His case would be difficult. Has Alfred convinced you? Those "did not have sexual intent" arguments would not convince a jury either.
    - rob war April 9, 2018
      
      ABSOLUTELY NOT! The defenses on DG mention that he was touching these girls but that he didn't have "sexual intent" or that he operated in his own world or that he felt he had a call to "minister" to young women because they were neglected. The defenses of him on the internet indict him. He just saw his staff as extended family and he was trying to be a father/grandfather. Or he was just being a considerate boss in recommending these girls how to dress. Etc. Etc. I mean all these excuses are stating that he was touching and bothering these girl.
    - Don Rubottom April 10, 2018
      
      Exactly.
    - rob war April 10, 2018
      
      I rarely read about defamation or slander cases being successful. Discussion the body of someone's teaching that has been in existence since the 1960's isn't a "kill Bill" in a free and open society. Having your loyal support call everyone a liar and out to get Bill I would think would back fire on this case. And what is the point? At 83, will any of this bring him back his old glory? It's over for him. One can't make blanket accusals that everyone on this blog is a liar and out to destroy Bill. Trying to support this effort because Melania Trump won some defamation case against some blogger is not the same as a large group of people, mostly ex-ATI students talking about how IBCY/IBLP screwed up their lives in trying to follow Bill's cradle to grave teaching. And then to turn all of this around and blaming Dr. Cornish alone is just ridiculous. I guess his is the new Tony G. and Bill's new boggy man. I think defamation works both ways.
- Karen April 3, 2018 Reply
  
  Very well said, dear brother! I really have nothing to add, but my amen.
- Jane July 22, 2018 Reply
  
  To Don Rubottom: You said "know that God defends the defenseless, protects the powerless", if that were really true, why then are children still being raped, abused, and murdered, mostly by their own family members???
  - Don Rubottom July 30, 2018 Reply
    
    I don't know. If our justice system is the best path, I ask you the same question. I would say to any victim "hope in God, He does justify". In the context of my full comment, I can't imagine why you felt the need to attack that. IF God does not exist, it does not matter at all, any of it. If the God of the Bible exists then He is the defender of the defenseless. I expect to see many vindicated victims in Heaven. I hope to see you there too.
    Why did Jesus suffer if He was innocent? Why does any martyr? The question of why evil exists is not what we are discussing here, but the heroic effort of victims to plead for justice in an imperfect world. Sorry if I triggered you. The other responses to my comment may indicate that after participating for over 3 years across many topics, you may be missing the context in and from which I speak.
rob war April 3, 2018 Reply

To Bill,

Since you either review this blog your self or have your loyal supports do so on your behalf, what does this new court filing really do for you? Will it put you back at IBLP? Will it give you back your "good name" that you think you lost? Will it give you the final evangelical accolades that the late Billy Graham got? What really does this do for you? All it really does is make you look like a big hypocrite whether you win or not. You will be going against many things that you taught such as and not limited to,surrendering your rights, suffering, trusting God, loving your enemies, not going to court against other Christians etc. At 83 is that how you really want to spend your last years is in court? No matter that many of this was a she said/ he said, let me ask you this, why is the world did a single man with a million dollar ministry to run decide to surround himself with pretty young girls? You think this makes you look honorable and honest? Why in the world have you tried to excuse this as either being fatherly or grandfatherly, as being some kind of "old fashioned kinda guy"? Your own defenders on the internet have defended you as "not understanding", as "being in your own world", as "an old fashioned guy", as trying to file some kind of gap to ministry to young women, not having sexual intent, etc. However, these defenses in your name actually have painted a picture of a man that was repeatedly touching young women that you knowingly surrounded yourself with. However, this goes deeper than that and yes, I am old enough to remember the 1980 scandal when that blew open and those issues from way back then still seem not to be resolved and even today with those from that time period that worked for you and are still alive. That scandal back then began to erode your name and broad appeal. I saw myself the slow withdrawal. Does counter suing these people bring any of it back? Really it doesn't even if you are successful. For someone that taught about character, responsibility, authority etc. I'm not seeing any of this in your current actions towards these people. They withdrew the case. You are not being forced into court, why then are you still trying to continue this because it makes you look like an vindictive bitter man. And bitterness was another thing you strongly came out against in your teaching. Is that what you want to look like and be remembered for in your twilight years? Where is your love for your enemies? Where is "Father forgive them, they know not what they do?" All of this does for you is make you a foot note in the evangelical world which has long ago left you. Your loyal fans and followers still cant go the IBLP and see your name and face and even video clips. They can also go to your new web site and buy your self-published books. You had a moment of grace with the withdrawal of the law suit, it's a huge mistake to counter and continue.
Sad April 3, 2018 Reply

Thank you to the RG team for all the work they have done over the years, both here on this site and behind the scenes. To the plaintiffs, as a 25 year veteran cop, I want to apologize for the legal system failing you so completely. I took on this calling to stand up for those who need a voice and I hate to see people get away from justice. For not only does BG escape dealing with the authorities placed over us by God, he also enabled other abusers to escape justice by his failing to report criminal matters. It breaks my heart and sickens my soul.

My prayer is that the victims can find peace and solace as they press forward from this case.
Rachel (Bruzas) Foster April 9, 2018 Reply

Thank you, RG Team!! I am grateful to have found Recovering Grace several years ago, and want to thank each one on your team for giving yourselves to this site. My life is changed because of it. You gave us ex-ATI students a voice when we were just beginning to be brave enough to acknowledge the damage that had been done in our lives during our formative years. You gave us the window into others' experiences, and we realized that we weren't alone in our confusion and pain. You gave us tools to help us heal, and the backbone to stand up and make changes in ourselves, our families, and for our futures. You have maintained a balanced content-- no trash talking, and plenty of relevant articles, while being very honest and bold. Thank you for the gift of this site to us!

And I applaud each person who joined the lawsuit against BG-- that took courage and determination. You did NOT fail. You made the hypocritical world that BG had created come crashing down around his ears-- and the Christian community had to take notice. A once-worshiped man was exposed for his sins and crimes against innocent, vulnerable people. You ARE believed, and now the best gift you can give yourselves-- and the best way you can ultimately win this thing -- is to live life, continue to seek healing, choose joy, and don't let him take anything more away from you. I pray that you will find peace, rest, and comfort.
Don Rubottom April 13, 2018 Reply

Interesting: as this "case" winds down, another rises--
Bill Hybels, Willow Creek.
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/march/chicago-megachurch-caught-in-swirl-of-accusations-against-founder

"Hybels has admitted to placing himself "in situations that would have been far wiser to avoid," but he maintains his innocence."
that quote from:
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/april/willow-creek-pastor-bill-hybels-resigns-amid-accusations-of-sexual-misconduct

Note the common factor with B.G.: admission of compromising circumstances but categorical denial of guilt or moral fault. And the "investigation" reported "no evidence" meaning that the testimony of women is not evidence AND the admitted circumstantial evidence is not evidence. There were 1000 emails between Hybels and one acccuser but the emails could not be read. Why can't one of these fallen souls just admit their weakness and accept a true judgment? And Hybels has a woman Chair of Board of Elders defending him...
- rob war April 15, 2018 Reply
  
  I don't understand why these guys didn't follow Billy Graham's example and never allow oneself to be alone with another woman that wasn't his wife. It sounded like many of these incidences happen when he traveled and then asked these women to be alone with him or met him in his hotel room. Is he really that stupid?
  - Don Rubottom April 18, 2018 Reply
    
    Males are really that stupid. You've been warned. ;-)
Nicole Gardner April 17, 2018 Reply

Hey everybody I need information re. something that’s time-sensitive:
Back in 2015, or possible very early 2016, a national organization removed IBLP from it’s list of “approved organizations”. This was because they had wrongly included IBLP to begin with; it has forever been non-qualifiable because Gothard was one of his own elders, which is not conducive to their criteria. The announcement of removal was not in any of the feature articles, but was in a comment. I remember looking it up. The disqualifing organization had a four-letter abbreviation. Something like 2 “E”s, maybe an “O”, maybe a “C.” I need to find the name of this governing body so that I can reference their criteria of not allowing an elder-board to be staked-out by the person that it’s supposed to govern. Like I said, it’s time-sensitive. I’ve been googling like crazy, also trying to find that comment on here.
If anybody knows the name of this organization, I would love it if you could tell me on here.
- Larne Gabriel April 17, 2018 Reply
  
  Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability
  www.efca.org
  ECFA enhances trust in Christ-centered churches and ministries by establishing and applying Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship™ to accredited organizations.
  
  http://www.ecfa.org/FormerMembers.aspx
  Institute in Basic Life Principles Terminated for failure to comply with Standard 2: Governance 03/11/2016
  
  There are some news articles regarding the termination but they were not readily available
- rob war April 17, 2018 Reply
  
  I remember this. I think it was either ECFA or Evangelical Joint Accounting Committee or ECCU but it (I think) was connected with Evangelical Joint Accounting Committee. I would look at their web sites.
  - Nicole Gardner April 18, 2018 Reply
    
    Ty very much, Rob!
    I’ll go check
- kevin April 18, 2018 Reply
  
  Hi Nicole.
  It was ECFA. Here is the article in Christianity Today, regarding IBLP's loss of accreditation:
  
  http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/march/bill-gothard-iblp-loses-ecfa-accreditation-governance.html
Larne Gabriel April 17, 2018 Reply

EFCA
Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability
IBLP Terminated for failure to comply with Standard 2: Governance 3/11/16
Larne Gabriel April 19, 2018 Reply

Recently I wrote a final research paper for a Theology class my church offers, the title of my paper was The importance of Good Biblical Theology in recognizing false prophets in these end-times. My professor was well aware of my background and besides my own research, he provided me with a plethora of documents and references including a paper by Ann Marshall, a professor from Chafer Theological Seminary tilted, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN (MATTHEW 15:9) which got my attention. The purpose of her paper was a book review of Don Veinot’s “A Matter of Basic Principles”. The review was very positive, and her added personal research is more than insightful. She deals with a number of topics to include Hermeneutics, Grace and Rhemas. Her summaries and conclusions are spot on and I highly recommend it as being more than a book review. The link below:

http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v9n1_4teaching_for_doctrines_the_commandments.pdf
- kevin April 24, 2018 Reply
  
  Thanks for the link Larne! I agree that she is spot on. Worth reading for certain.
  
  "Gothard believes that
  attendees will avoid painful mishaps and blunders if they will
  follow his step-by-step plan: “These ‘principles’ rather than a
  relationship with God are the focus of Gothard’s teaching.”8"
  
  Bingo.
Benjamin Chung April 22, 2018 Reply

If I am not mistaken, your website is safe from any legal action from Bill. He is dying, and desperate to clear his good name. That is why when God takes him, he would be delusional to think that God will reward him. If there is a God, and I am not the only one to think this, that he must make sure Bill face his punishment in this world and in the afterlife.
- rob war April 23, 2018 Reply
  
  Can you verify the status of Bill's health?
Nicole Gardner April 24, 2018 Reply

Well, I’ll say this: if this website is in any trouble at all, then I’m in a whole LOT of trouble, because I’ve actually given my personal opinion of Bill Gothard. Which this website & those submitting accounts never did other than contingently with concrete information that they graciously provided. I’ve said exactly what I think of what he’s done to me & to my twisted leader who still adheres to IBLP idolatry to this day (I became an idolater, too), & of his insatiable indulgence in his emotional affairs that he forced on young ladies. I’ve said how I fully, totally, 100% believe that he sexually assaulted multiple young students, & if it weren’t for the SOL expiring, he’d have to schlep his blankets to jail to cover up his cell-mate with & rub the insides of HIS thighs. Because he’d of had to have quit playing roulette if he’d gone to jail. Somewhere out there, there’s some random guy in a cell who has no idea how blessed-by-the-SOL he is............. to have never had Bill Gothard move in & start creeping on him in his sleep. Gotta keep the prisons safe, somehow!

Thank you all for the links to the info I needed. I submitted the necessary info to whom it was due. Turns out, there’s quality leaders of organizations that display interest in banning materials from corrupt leaders, even if a well-meaning member of said organization sincerely wants to proffer these. Sharing relevant info is always a good thing.

Larne, I like that your theology professor let you use a piece revolving around “A Matter of Basic Principles” for your course assignment. Your church is very high-quality. I can tell, & not just from this, either. Scrupulous leaders/teachers are cool beans.
- Larne Gabriel April 25, 2018 Reply
  
  Nicole,
  
  The professor is cool but its a Theology class covering major doctrinal issues and Gothard was never discussed in the class, although the professor and I have had numerous conversations. When the final research paper topic is agreed upon with the professor, he assist with providing links to references for our research. This was just one of several references he provide, this one happen to be on Veinot's book and a great read.
  - Nicole Gardner April 27, 2018 Reply
    
    Larne,
    I attend a church that has a theology class!! Although I’ve never been to it. I don’t want to name it here, though. I’m just curious; does your professor happen to have a PhD? And, if you don’t mind me asking, what state did he (& his wife, teenage daughter & 7-year-old son?????) last reside in? I ask all this because I think my lifegroup leader, Keith, may know him. (Only a few degrees of separation between any of us, really). My church, also, is big about “Existing to make more and better disciples”............ something that you’d mentioned before in connection with your’s (although this is common sense for any church of Jesus Christ).
    I’m just wondering, b/c it would be quite the coincidence if you & your wife are involved with the same quality (albeit huge!) organization that I started regularly attending in 2006!! So ironic, that would be, because, as far as I’ve known, I only know of you from here.
Larne Gabriel April 27, 2018 Reply

He came from CA, yes to a real PHD. Are there a set of jeep headlights staring at you by the children's dept when you come in the west doors?
Nicole Gardner April 27, 2018 Reply

YES!!!!
Oh my goodness!!! I can hardly believe this........... God is so good. Although there’s no leader still there, clinging to the last vestiges of IBLP ideology, back in the years when there was, I left for 6+ years. (Even though both echelons of head leadership (pastoral & elder) had given these vestiges & their wielders the boot; I was just generally mad at church in general, that anybody attending could still be a Gothardite. I thought the world outside church would be better. Ha, what a joke). What’s amazing to me is: the whole time I was _*out of it*_, a member of the same church I was a member of was one of the ones ministering to me here on RG!!!!
God is so good.
And, I’m so glad that one of my friends from there kept inviting to lunch with her & to come over to her house (she & her hubby happen to be LG leaders), so that I wanted back in. Church-searching has left me wanting.
I’ve always benefited from the fact that P.S. preaches like he’s stating things about God & what God does according to their observability. Like, he’s just the epitaph or reader-board at the look-out point that flanks the natural wonder itself. The church I’d attended for 10 years prior was a total Gothardite church. All we got told was that life is bad because people are bad, & if we weren’t so bad, things would be different (along with direct re-hashes of the IBLP seminar). P.S., J.P., & even T.O. (although T.O. was raised loosely IBLP in his homeschooled childhood) have SO MUCH to say about Who God is & what He’s about doing!!! There’s no time for _*poor us. Life is so lame for abc + xyz reasons. And, we deserve this misery, so let’s wallow in it.” For real! I love being part of a place where God is OBSERVED to be so big that the _*I’m a daily-disastrous-sinner*_ (as is mitigated DAILY by IBLP that entails personalization of every hardship) is dwarfed by His presence in the worship/sermons! At first, I was so insecure to be in a place where the focus was drawn from me to God rather than on me, like a swaddling-wrap. Back in 2006, this Christian Hedonism that was clearly manifest in the whole thing, actually gave me social anxiety!! Like a toddler who, instead of being told “you’re a bad girl!” over-&-over, is presented to a Stranger & feels compelled to acknowledge them in some way. Rather than herself. I wrote the church a thank-you e-mail last June, but they never published it in The My Story thing they were doing online. (I’m sure it was too long!). Thank-you, Larne, for being my Christian brother/father here on RG.

I try to save parking spaces for visitors by using the Park’n’Ride. I’m an eighter or a twelve-&-a-halfer. My LG-ers are mostly eighters, center crows-nesters; laughed very loudly (& I’m sure, inappropriately) when P.S. summarized Ananias & Saphira 2 weeks ago. If you & your wife are ever eighters, then I’m sure you’ve heard us even though we’ve likely never seen each other (big place).

Btw, I know you have at least one single daughter so I will tell you this: if any guy from the neighboring northerly-east-ish town that’s initialed L.S. ever asks her to go on a date to HIS church, (initialed C.B.C. & address is the same town), HE’S AN OPERATING GOTHARDITE. The outfit is, too, although administration tries to be subtle about it. He’s very, very likely to be a lecher (no duh), who’s just suited-up. Since we’re neighbors, I though I’d better just put that out there. Also, if you’re ever advising anyone in the rural NE of Sno-Co of churches, there’s the die-hard Gothardite one out there that I was at for 10 years, initialed B.C.C. If the people you are advising REALLY want to try it, offer to drive them there. Then, in the car on the way back, play for them whatever segment of the IBLP seminar that was just rehashed as the sermon. And ask them if they really want their tithe & offerings to go toward that!

The CC’s around here are good for northern county-ers; one of my 2 is one of those, & it’s excellent. Like the one we’ve been discussing. I’m so glad you raised a daughter in this one church! That’s fabulous.

Cheers,
Your Neighbor
Nicole Gardner April 29, 2018 Reply

P.S.
Thank-you Larne (& everybody else’s) for putting up with my frustration with Gothardism that I’ve experienced. My experiences pale in comparison to Ruth’s & your’s, but these still threw a bunch of obstacles to my development across every path I took, & made a sucker out of me. No, I shouldn’t have believed IBLP lies; but, it was my primary influence for the 10 years that I was dedicatedly involved at my 1st church. So........... what to compare it to, before I started feeding myself Scripture?!? I had to get my own perspective. I’m glad I get fed now, & have fellowship with real-life disciples; if I’d had my present-day churches back then, I really don’t think I would’ve been sucked in by Gothard’s earning racket.

Larne, thank-you for your dedication to truth, even at the personal expense of sharing your pain. Every time we sing: “It Is Well With My Soul”, I am reminded of your & Ruth’s testimonies. And, this great hymn is sung quite often!
Larne Gabriel April 30, 2018 Reply

We have been attending for about ten years and I have never heard a peep about Gothard. The focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving Grace not on any man.
Mark R April 30, 2018 Reply

From a practical standpoint where does one go from here in terms of getting IBLP out of business? (Clearly it can't be reformed, on that we generally agree.)

Is the best solution now to simply let IBLP die a natural death?

Even before all this hit IBLP was a dying outfit. To the extent it still has an audience it is within hard-core fundamentalism, a segment of Christianity which, in the day and age of itching-ear teachers serving as CEO's of multi-site mega-churches, grows ever smaller. And it was having to survive by selling off assets: it sold the Ambassador Hotel in Dallas--one of its former training centers--and there was talk that the outfit itself was going to sell Oak Brook HQ and move to East Texas (we have enough troubled ministries moving there, we don't need another).

Given that IBLP is shrinking, is the best approach at this point to not encourage any more lawsuits that never accomplish the goal of putting Gothard in prison or forcing IBLP into bankruptcy? Leave the site up for those who may find it in times of trouble, and simply report on any later IBLP happenings (e.g. if Gothard does get back to leading it or if they sell Oak Brook or if they finally do shut down completely)?
- rob war April 30, 2018 Reply
  
  Well, we will have to see what becomes of the Bill visit to Big Sandy and his escort off the property by the police and if this will divide the base of what is left of IBLP into the pro bring Bill back with those currently running IBLP that called the police on Bill to kick him off.
Daniel May 1, 2018 Reply

This journey is a difficult one in that our identity, beliefs, friendships, history, joys, and sorrows are so intertwined with all of this. For years, we internalized a system of living that intermixed truth with error in a way that separating the two is painful. Had it all been error, it could easily be set aside. Instead, we are left to carve away at our own existence, trying to find the parts that are false, misguided, or just unnecessary. Some of us made lifelong friends, traveled, flourished, enjoyed, excelled, grew, matured in the system at the same time we were soaking in all the error. Walking away from everything with a clean slate is not possible. It's messy.
Perhaps it's like a divorce. Love never completely dies even through the pain and heartache.
- Don Rubottom May 1, 2018 Reply
  
  Well put, Daniel.
kevin May 1, 2018 Reply

For those of you who have not yet heard the news: Bill Gothard attended the Family Conference in Big Sandy uninvited and had to be escorted off the premises by police. They cited him for trespassing.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/bill-gothard-iblp-159137
- Mark R May 1, 2018 Reply
  
  Wow! Now he gets to spend his money on criminal attorneys!
  
  And I wonder if he will maintain his "Biblical principles"--or sue the IBLP Board for harassment? (Maybe they can bankrupt each other)
  - kevin May 1, 2018 Reply
    
    I did not think that I would live to see Bill Gothard ever have to do the perp walk. And to think, it was his own organization that handed him over to the police.
    They got Al Capone on tax evasion. Bill Gothard on trespassing. Full justice? Not even close. Still, as it was for Al Capone, I am sure it was pretty humiliating for Gothard for his followers to see him taken away by the police.
    - rob war May 2, 2018
      
      on top of that, the warning he signed was over disobedience to orders to leave.
    - kevin May 2, 2018
      
      That's right. As we have seen over and over again, the principles don't apply if your name is Bill Gothard. He didn't obey his authority, refusing to obey the instructions to leave the premises.
      Apparently, the authority scheme works pretty well to control the masses when you put yourself up at the top of it. When you've been dethroned and need to obey those who are in authority over you, perhaps it is no longer so appealing.
    - rob war May 2, 2018
      
      He was told by IBLP when he was finally "fired" in 2014 not to go to their properties, conferences etc. He was done. That is not uncommon at all for any minister/priest/etc. that has been fired/defrocked/banned etc. due to improprieties of behaviors. So showing up unannounced like he did and expected to be allowed to stay because he drove 14 hours to get there and paid his money is the height of arrogance/entitlement/pride/etc. and expected the the board would talk to him and welcome him back because he was carrying letters from others saying he should be back is someone that has a serious brake with reality.
David Pigg May 2, 2018 Reply

From the perspective of ongoing injustice what has been developing recently has been surprising.I'm thankful that there maybe a crack of sunlight going into the dark corridors of Gothardism.Irregardless as to what maybe developing further the enevitable course of ripening events {having gone without saying} is going on now and has been, and I don't want any part of it.The gist of it goes something like this:behind closed doors do I want people to say of me,"hurrah,that old Gothardite Dad finally died!!No more control no more demands, manipulation or tyranny!Gone are the bondages and legalism that I in my assumed alleged delagated authority imposed upon my hapless subjects;be they children, wife,hapless peons in the caste system;and that by the Great Suppressor;you know as well as I do this disclosure gives everyone a chance to run for it while the running is good.Time and truth have a way of slowly eroding away the lies that lay buried underneath the subliminal conscience not entirely suppressed,or controlled.And back in the 70's mine sure was as I was taken down these same channeled halls,the invisible shackles turning me lifeless and expressionless.How many children will breathe sighs of relief when at last the despotic unrepentant Gothardite is gone?I guarantee this will be repeated as the older generation turns on 80 plus years and the next generation gets in their 60's!The empre is toppling,after so much denial and obfuscation.It isn't too late to repent.For the sake of why you were created.
Nicole Gardner May 3, 2018 Reply

With IBLP getting wise (in the past 4 years!) to Bill’s unfitness to mingle among children, it’s too bad they’re not willing to let go of the false dogma that has seeded this behavior of his; they know the author of ALL this material had no right to be at the conference.................. why don’t they see that there shouldn’t even BE a conference on it?!?!? The fruit of IBLP’s seed is acknowledged as needing police intervention. But when is IBLP going to stop spreading the same seed?!?!?!?
- rob war May 3, 2018 Reply
  
  I don't think they "got wise", I think they had pretty damnable evidence and had no choice but to ax Bill if they still wanted to stay afloat, credible and keep their jobs. All his teaching, ideas etc. are still there in all it's glory. They haven't changed a thing with Bill's teaching. One would think that Bill would be happy that they kept it all together and going with out him. All that stuff is his body of work. But it isn't about just his teaching that these people are carrying on with, it's still about being in power and control and being still in his glory. There still is and probably always will be a group of people that follow (or think they follow) Bill's teaching and ideas. The only thing you can do is make sure you stay away from it. If the base of ATI/IBLP splits over Bill's police walk off, they will be further reduced and hurt. I think that was some of his purpose, to split the remaining base and bring this house of cards down because if he, Bill isn't in charge, then he, Bill doesn't want them to continue either. Show you how selfish this all is.
  - Daniel May 3, 2018 Reply
    
    It's a really interesting situation. Apparently, enough wrongdoing to justify his dismissal was discovered in the fairly narrow net they cast in the "Sham Investigation."
    
    It appears that this whole lawsuit was a result of RG's founder failure to meditate on God's Word.
    
    https://billgothard.com/news-and-statements/a-huge-victory-conspiracy-exposed-lawsuit-dropped/
    
    Apparently, my personal observations of Mr. G's affinity for being around attractive teenage girls is also a lack of meditation.
  - kevin May 4, 2018 Reply
    
    Rob,
    I agree. These board members were very loyal Gothard followers. It has even been suggested, that for them Gothard was their spiritual father. For them to force his removal after the report, and to continue to banish him from IBLP events, would suggest that their investigation uncovered some serious issues. And, let's keep in mind, the investigator conducting the report did not even interview the victims with the most serious charges.
    I do hope that one day they will make it public- but not holding my breath.
    
    I have the same questions: What about the teachings? What about the teachings on adoption? Send adopted kids back? What about the teachings on blind obedience to authority and the invented magic Umbrella? What about the specific prayers that magically promise specific results? What about the odd, unbiblical music teachings? What about the scripture, its meaning twisted by Bill beyond recognition at virtually every opportunity?
    If IBLP has reviewed any of the teachings, what did they conclude? Why have they not reached out to the alumni to apologize and suggest that they may have learned some very unbiblical teachings that they may need to unlearn- that they may need to work really hard to unlearn?
    If their report uncovered things that warrant his banishment, then wouldn't that be a good time to stop and ask the question, "Who is this man?" "If he did these terrible things, maybe we need to look a little closer at the teachings and not follow them as if he was a prophet of God"
  - Mark R May 4, 2018 Reply
    
    Given that they've had to continually sell real estate holdings to stay afloat, at some point the $$$ will run out because there won't be anything left to sell without closing up shop completely. Even if they relocate from Oak Brook to Big Sandy (as rumored) that $$$ runs out at some point.
    - Daniel May 4, 2018
      
      Except that Oak Brook is worth 50-200M or so
    - kevin May 4, 2018
      
      Mark,
      They may be able to keep going a lot longer than one might expect. I recall that the book value of the real estate holdings were something in the range of $ 90 million a few years back. Book value is not the same as market value. Market value often vastly exceeds book value. Given that many of these holdings have been owned for decades, this is likely the case, with a market value exceeding book value. Selling the real estate little by little could keep them going for decades. If it were re-invested in income producing properties, it could keep them going indefinitely.
      The annual losses shown on the tax return are also misleading. Depreciation is shown as a loss, for tax return purposes. So, if they show a 4 million loss one year, but 2 million in depreciation, that is only really a 2 million operating loss. If they consolidate to Big Sandy, the operating expenses will be cut drastically. Even if they operate at 1 million in the red annually, that could probably be sustained for a long, long time, by selling off the holdings gradually.
      One thing that Gothard was really good at was keeping expenses really low and plowing the profits into real estate. He built IBLP's own little real estate empire.
    - Larne Gabriel May 4, 2018
      
      Quote from a former staff pastor;
      
      "When Cash Flow collides with Convictions,
      Cash Flow always wins"
    - rob war May 4, 2018
      
      I thought that they already moved their headquarters to Texas from Oak Brook but have yet to sell the property there.
    - Mark R May 7, 2018
      
      Rob War--They still show their "Box One, Oak Brook IL" address on their website.
      
      Not that it wouldn't take much to pay someone to check the box each day, deposit the cash, and send the other stuff to Big Sandy.
    - rob war May 7, 2018
      
      Yes, I did see that IBLP still lists Oak Brooke as the main offices. I don't think they have been on top of updating their web site except to promote their conferences.
    - Betty May 10, 2018
      
      IBLP did move to Big Sandy, about 1 1/2 years ago. They took the helm. ALERT moved offices to make room for them. IBLP leadership occupies the 'penthouse,' giving ALERT's past penthouse occupent the boot. He was the one who defined for us (ALERT staff) that the girls' testimonies were a sham. He did whatever BG wanted.
      
      We are not there anymore. There has been a lot of ALERT staff shuffling. Probably to make ends meet.
    - Betty May 10, 2018
      
      Correction: The IBLP move probably happened in early 2015. They have been in Big Sandy for approximately 3 1/2 years, in lieu of 1 1/2 years. Sorry, my sense of time is off a bit.
Nicole Gardner May 4, 2018 Reply

Daniel,
I think Mr. G.’s affinity for teenage girls stemmed from TOO MUCH meditation; mostly, in cataloging every aspect of their physiques (hence his demand for plastic surgeries for a couple of his personal assistants & foot fetishes & hair-grabbing of most others). But, also in figuring out the ages that each generation of these would be, down the road. He saw to it that his pursuit of 20-somethings in the late 70’s gave way to grooming of teenagers all through the 90’s. As he fancied himself having _*caught*_ a bushel of _*fish*_, he _*threw them back*_. And lured (literally, lured) a younger set. I don’t know that he was pre-meditating the snagging of younger & younger prey each time that he _*tossed ‘em back*_. But, he surely was intending to do so, relatively speaking. Because, even if he had stuck with 20-something’s, the age gap between him & that age bracket continued to widen during his 35+ year habit of doing this. In this sense, every time he passed that bunch of women in their late 20’s or early thirties off to his brother at the North Woods, he opted for even younger women (& then mere girls) to replace these. Down to at least three 13-year-olds. Doing that kind of math over 35 years takes obsessiveness of some sort, be it meditative or just along the lines of Shallow Hal at the beginning of this movie when Hal describes “the perfect woman” (it’s the scene in the elevator). He put WAY more thought into appraising the physique of women as a species than the average man does. I guess that’s the only occupation that can compete with the investment involved in having a relationship of unconditional love.

Rob & Kevin,
I, too, agree with what you each have said. Yes, Mr.G. is totally like one who says: _*If I can’t have what I want, then nobody can!!*_ (And, in the movies, proceeds to torch his cabin before storming off on his horse). It’s all about him being surrounded by a bunch of admiring people who have no idea that he, in person, was/is completely incapable of compensating for all the damage that his teaching sets up as time-bombs for families & individuals. Not even when gracing people with his presence!!!
I do, definitely believe that the board knows they’d be terribly liable to let him on their premises; they cannot be complicit with that & they know it. I believe that people like Robin (who had submitted her story to be published here at one point) probably agreed to become silent in exchange for the promise that such action be taken if Mr. G. tried to worm his way back into manipulating people via IBLP’s venues. I’m not trying to say that it’s her, specifically............ but it would make sense since her dad confronted Mr. G. twice for touching her inappropriately. (Twice, b/c the initial confrontation met with excuses by Mr. G. in resorting to blame Robin for what he’d done & what he’d said while doing it). Since she had her story removed after having let it remain published for years, it would seem that maybe she had some contact with IBLP; I’ve always thought that, anyway. Or, maybe it’s the safety of others that the board had a commitment to try to retro-actively protect. BTW, retro-active protection is an oxymoron!!!! But, I’m sure that Robin, along with the other victims, did all that they felt they could to prevent more victimizations. In light of what we KNOW of these doing to try to save others from the same experiences, the board would’ve been absolute idiots to not take the action that they did in Big Sandy. There doesn’t need to be any more!! But, Kevin, I, too, strongly suspect that there ARE more victims that they know of that we don’t.

One thing about IBLP’s authority teaching that has been underlined by all this:
Mr. G. & his P.R. both interpret it as being totally & completely subjective. That is, Mr. G.’s moderator considers the board’s authority to be utterly nothing despite their having helmed the IBLP for over 4 years. As in, THIS MEANS NOTHING. And, although Mr. G. himself has actually, literally, NOT ran IBLP for this same 4 years........... he’s still supposedly the rightful CEO. So, according to this _*logic*_, what is or isn’t in terms of actual existence has no bearing on who should be in charge. On this basis, I think I will fly to London & just let the queen know that I’ll be taking-over the crown. If anybody asks me what the basis of this is, I’ll just say: “Because I’m making the effort to exert authority over her. And, since I’m exerting authority over her, this authority is the real authority, because she hasn’t exerted any authority over ME!! See, here’s the hard drive to my email & my cell phone records; she’s sent me NOTHING for these past 4 years. Therefore she isn’t superior to me & so I’m the top dog here. I’m the boss of her b/c she hasn’t bossed me.”
In this view, EVERYBODY is either boss or bossed; it’s so subjective & impractical!!!!! I work in a store, & very, very occasionally, someone will “get trespassed” for shoplifting repeatedly. There no _*I am your authority*_ bid involved in this at all, nor does there need to be!!!!!! The issuing of a trespass just means that those in charge OF THE PREMISES are taking the responsibility that they ALREADY HAVE over these premises & securing the assets (including other patrons!) therein. My goodness.

The interpretation that Mr. G.’s P.R. has typed up concerning this is no different than the allegory I gave of myself & the queen. It is Exhibit A for how utterly whacked IBLP’s authority teaching really is.............. according to it’s inventor.
- Daniel May 8, 2018 Reply
  
  I'd like to clarify that I'm not accusing Bill of anything illegal. I have personally observed his attraction to and preference for the company of attractive young women and girls- this is just creepy behavior, not intrinsically illegal behavior. He has admitted to "favoritism."
  
  I honestly find it hard to believe some of the more spectacular stories even knowing this. Possible, just difficult to believe.
  
  For me, it's more a story of "why did the Board let this guy be a creep" for all these years, vs. any specific crimes committed. They could have shut this down a long, long time ago. It's not like nobody saw this behavior. IBLP Staff never snickered about "Gothard Girls."
rob war May 4, 2018 Reply

To Kevin,
I also think one of the ways Bill kept expenses down was having his staff work long hours or over time without paying them for it because they were suppose to be giving to the "Lord's work". Stocking his staff with ATI students in the name of "internships" which also meant that he did have to pay them much if at all.
- kevin May 6, 2018 Reply
  
  Rob,
  From what people have reported, that sure seems to be what has gone on. Those internships sound like a joke. I recall a story in which the young man arrived, thinking he was going for a specific internship, related to a field he planned to go into, only to have them put them where they needed him. Was it landscaping perhaps?
  - rob war May 7, 2018 Reply
    
    Hi Kevin, I think you are referring to Caleb Backholm who wrote a small book "I Heard You Were in a Cult" as well as a featured article here. Caleb was suppose to go to headquarters to be a part of the Law "school". Instead, he was put on "lawn service". He was eventually sent home because he wanted to "play" football on Sunday and for his views on mixed race marriages. He met with Bill over his views and Bill just sent him home with no recourse or second chances. Shows you what a farce these internships were at these training centers.
Karen May 6, 2018 Reply

Hi Everyone,
I know this may be off topic, but I want to share a beautiful resource written by two amazing Christians. The book is called “Not Quite Healed Yet” by Cecil Murphy and another survivor of childhood abuse. I just read the first 10 pages and thought,”I need to share with RG.” My heart will always remain with the survivors of BG abuse. Although this book specifically addresses boyhood abuse, the principles of healing are the same and they enlighten us who love the abused as to the long term effects of childhood/sexual abuse. I thank God that RG became a place where victims of BG could share their stories and be believed. But we still have a lot to do to help the victims eject the lies that BG put in their heads. RG is doing a beautiful job at helping the healing along. God bless all of you! You are all my heroes.
kevin May 7, 2018 Reply

Yes Rob, it was definitely Caleb Backholm whom I was remembering. Yes, the internships were a total joke. In Caleb's case, sounds like he was used for free labor. This is the kind of internship I would think would really control costs.
Perhaps I'll talk to the fellow who comes by every week to cut my lawn and see what he thinks if I offer to call him an intern and stop paying him. Maybe if I convince him that he is somehow doing the "Lord's work" he will be cool with the arrangement.
- Mark R May 7, 2018 Reply
  
  The only way you can pull that off is to convince him to either do "the Lord's work" for free or threaten to call ICE.
rob war May 10, 2018 Reply

The police cam of Bill being cited for criminal trespass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IB4zckM_Mk
David May 10, 2018 Reply

Early in the tape Bill defends his right to be there by saying that all of the people there came to love the Lord through him and are his disciples. Too bad the audio is poor -- it picks up and is clear at about the 9 minute mark.

Bill demands that he was NOT asked to leave, and yet those who, "did NOT ask him to leave," called the police and had the police escort him off the premises. Why? Because they DID ask him to leave and he would not. Why else call the police if there was no issue?

At about 26:30 Bill appeals to the fact that he founded this ministry and that the board, "took it over."

He obviously showed up because he thought he would be received with open arms by those attending if not the board. He would not have showed up if he thought they would throw him out and call the police -- he was clearly not expecting that. He likely thought this could be a first step to a return to power -- why else talk to the board? Why else be there at all?

What a disgraceful display by an 83 year old man under any circumstances. Disgraceful that he even showed up to begin with. Disgraceful because he continued to insist that he was not asked to leave -- why did he think he was being escorted and cited? -- because he was NOT asked to leave and refused?
- rob war May 10, 2018 Reply
  
  Yes, the earlier audio was very difficult. Too much static. I thought the one point in that part Bill said "don't make me do this..." that almost was like a threat as if they didn't do what Bill wanted them to do which was stay and then be reinstated, he was going beyond that and take legal action. That was very chilling to me. Bill also laughed at one point at the officer trying to give him the citation warning. I don't think he took it seriously. According to Alfred on DG, Bill also had a "letter" of people (I am assuming big name supporters) that wanted him back in control at IBLP. So, he expected that driving 14 hours to get there, pay his money, and then be allowed to stay and cause conflict with what is left of IBLP. It's delusional thinking.
- David May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  Another point that is tragic irony is that those who refused to meet with Bill and had him escorted off the premises by the police were there to continue to spread Bill's teachings. But all of this is classic cult behavior. It is tragic because despite everything people continue to be blinded by, "another gospel," -- that of Bill Gothard -- even though they have rightly rejected the teacher of that false gospel. Indeed, despite the horrible and immoral abuses for which Bill has been accused, if he were one-hundred percent innocent of all of those charges (I do believe he is guilty) -- but if Gothard were one-hundred percent innocent of even the slightest charge, he is still a legalistic heretic who has led tens of thousands astray from Jesus Christ -- and his followers continue to do so today. Folks just refuse to see.
Larne Gabriel May 10, 2018 Reply

David,

One of the other items was he stated (Speaking of the facility)"this was given to me", that could have been an regrettable statement in the heat of the conversation or his true feeling that this was all about him. I would hope it was the former. At the 7:45 point he makes a statement that sounds like "don't make me do this" not sure if he is referring to. Either making him leave or something else that has to do with the papers he presented. Considering he had not been addressed by the police at that point I would lean to the latter explanation, but I don't know????? Mostly I find this whole thing sad as it shows a complete lack of understanding of why he is in his current position, and his unwillingness to accept a higher authority than himself or his lack of understanding that he can't get his way to redefine the narrative. I still pray for him each day and the women too.
- Julia May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  Larne, I am glad you pointed out how sad this is. I hope the victims - of much more than our family was a victim - understand when I say sad. He is a mess. I do not rejoice in that. He is reaping justice in this. He is not only disgraced but unrepentant. This whole situation at Big Sandy shows his true heart and it is sad. He is shown to have feet of clay - and those are even broken.
  
  What a mess. Just a first time listening through this tape - even 10 minutes of it - show those of us who were involved in ATI just how many of his own teachings Bill does not keep. I do not believe for one minute that he EVER kept his own authority teaching. From the beginning, or soon thereafter, he did not live the junk he taught. It can be traced by anyone who knew him at all. We have all read the examples from the past. About 40 years of hypocrisy. Now we can actually hear it from just the other day...
  
  This whole situation puts such a fear of God in me. I am not being dramatic. God will not allow His little ones to be tripped up (stumble).
  
  Is what we are seeing a millstone around Bill's neck, or has God been gracious and has not tied it yet? Hypocrisy and hurting children are not to be tolerated. I am watching this play out right before my eyes and it is scary. God will do what is best - no matter WHO the culprit.
  
  Bill has seen a bit of his day of reckoning. He needs to repent. Turn around. Beat his chest. Rip his clothes. He needs to "see".
Nicole Gardner May 11, 2018 Reply

It comes through really clear at the 8:00 minute point. I skipped a chunk in the teens somewhere & jumped back in at 20:00; if there was EVER any doubt about how Gothard not only does anything he feels like doing, despite authority standing over him gently & clearly trying to correct him, this obliterates it completely. Along with any notion that ANY entourage of authority can efficiently deter him from insisting that THEY revert to being at HIS beck-&-call!!! This guy simply & absolutely does not have even a basic respect for ANYONE. Or for reality itself. “Yes I did”, but, less than 5 min. later: “No, I didn’t”. Cop: “You did say that you refused to leave, I was present & I heard you say it”, then ten more minutes of “No I didn’t” to this cop. Argues on & on with the truth!! This is deviance, defiance, & then more deviance to try to escape the truth about his deviance. Mr. G is a worming, diabolical, groundless deviant as pertains to human boundaries. *Human boundaries* referring both to a basic respect for others as well as regard for concrete events actualized through people (And it’s God’s sovereignty gets obfuscated here). The board has been running IBLP for 4 years, not only no aide from Gothard, but despite the hindrance created by his tendencies that this video captures. IBLP sucks because it’s this same man’s brainchild. But, it was/is their albatross; has nothing to do with the dog-eat-dog authority delineated by the Dumbrella. It’s about stewarding assets. Just like females shouldn’t be overtaken for OUR assets, since we each keep them up, each her own! It’s a matter of stewarding assets, not lording-over those who have them; the main problem with the Dumbrella is that it _*justifies*_ the stronger taking whatever they want from the _*lesser*_ stewards of the desired collateral. God assigns stewardship of possibly earth’s most valuable collateral, speaking of feminine sexuality here, to the weaker gender. Because He’s also ingrained a moral code in the human conscience, set forth His Law, & planned a day of judgement. Stewardship is a way, way bigger deal in God’s eyes than looking over others’ shoulders so as to take whatever can be had!! The Dumbrella has it SO BACKWARDS. It’s wrong to overtake. Assets need to be respected as belonging to their owners; if the rightful steward is overrun by might-makes-right, then what this really means is that the mightier has no rightful estimation of the value of what they took. And this is what people will get judged for on judgement day. How sad to gain possession of liability for which one becomes liable ONLY because of the way that they made it their possession. This is 100 percent fraudulent stewardship. Here’s an idea: How ‘bout instead, just respect the RIGHTFUL stewardship already given by God to those whose weaker vessels these already are. Except that this is 100 percent polar opposite to what the Dumbrella mandates.

And the above is merely the inherent problem with the teaching!! Add to that the following:

Gothard’s behavior toward the wholly AUTOMOUS & STRONGER board & cop in this tape proves more than an indictment in the dropped lawsuit ever could have.
- Nicole Gardner May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  My complete thought that I’m tacking-on to finish what I’ve just said:
  “Because this tape proves how insistent Mr. G is about getting everyone, even authorities, to kow-tow to whatever he wants. The respective stewardships of both the board & the officer had no bearing on Gothard’s motivation to tell them what-was-what. The “what’s-what” being the attempted revoking of present fact that he had just given assent-to mere minutes before. So........... this begs the question: how has he been toward actual minions of his?!?!? Especially since it’s apparent that he couldn’t figure out for the longest time that he couldn’t make even a cop give up his job duties to instead obey Gothard. Was this the FIRST TIME ever that Mr. G failed to bully another person out of their exercise of their own individual autonomy?????
  Gothard can try, all he wants, to re-write the reality that already answers this question. Hopefully, it’ll just go the same way as him trying to get the cop to re-write reality!
- David May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  Another point that is tragic irony is that those who refused to meet with Bill and had him escorted off the premises by the police were there to continue to spread Bill's teachings. But all of this is classic cult behavior. It is tragic because despite everything people continue to be blinded by, "another gospel," -- that of Bill Gothard -- even though they have rightly rejected the teacher of that false gospel. Indeed, despite the horrible and immoral abuses for which Bill has been accused, if he were one-hundred percent innocent of all of those charges (I do believe he is guilty) -- but if Gothard were one-hundred percent innocent of even the slightest charge, he is still a legalistic heretic who has led tens of thousands astray from Jesus Christ -- and his followers continue to do so today. Folks just refuse to see.
  - rob war May 11, 2018 Reply
    
    Exactly, they have not changed a thing, something I think Bill should be proud of but because he isn't at the helm, the continuation doesn't mean anything to him. What the video brought out to me was not that Bill was "ambushed" by the board, Doug Horseman of Alert or the police but that Bill actually ambushed them by showing up unannounced and uninvited, sitting in the front row for everyone to see him and when he was shuffled off to a room to prevent more uproar and disruption, he demanded a meeting with the board because he wanted to present a letter of big shots that think he should be back. He also expected to be allowed to stay because he drove there in 14 hours and paid his fee. Bill was told very clearly not to return to IBLP, their properties or functions. He was also previously escorted out of a previous conference in Sacramental. I think his demands forced them to call the police and give him a warning citation for trespassing. That really was the only way they were to get rid of him. He did have a meeting, but it was not the meeting he expected.
    - David May 11, 2018
      
      If Bill Gothard had an ounce of faith in God, or any knowledge of Jesus Christ, he would realize that if God wanted him back in charge -- indeed, if he were unjustly removed -- that he would not need to lift a finger. But power struggles, not to mention what we heard on the tape, is evidence that there is no faith. That tape, to me, sounded like a junior high school brat trying to, "be right," in the face of discipline. Of course, the whole argument is moot because if Bill knew God or had real faith he would not be Bill -- he would not have founded his heretical movement, or if he found the Truth later, would not be doing what he is now doing.
    - Don Rubottom May 17, 2018
      
      David, Jr. High School? How about pre-school? Have you seen the "Listen, Linda" video? Awesome:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP8RB7UZHKI
      
      Listen, officer...
    - Larne Gabriel May 17, 2018
      
      Someone should transpose another a familiar face on that kid and lip sink it, you would have a hit.
- Don Rubottom May 17, 2018 Reply
  
  Awesome insights, Nicole. Thanks.
David Pigg May 11, 2018 Reply

Hey Nicole...Well done!Awesome!My only comment is that Gothard allowed a little autonomy for his authorities to suppress in the same way and magnitude across multitudes of victims for 40 years the same spirit that he had.That is he created his image in others and gave them justification with a religious veneer to cruelly work bondage through false fallen and pagan authority.As long as no one crossed him.In the spirit many many authorities imitated their master.Go one further and we know who ultimately that one is.
- David Pigg May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  In the above comment I meant to say "with the same spirit".
Elizabeth D May 11, 2018 Reply

Wow - I missed this development until late last night. I did watch the entire 30+-minute dash cam and have read Alfred's version over at discoveringgrace/coveringdisgrace. I haven't read nearly all the comments, so forgive me if these comments have been made previously.

I was never in ATI and am not familiar with the conferences other than what I've read, nor do I keep up with the present-day version of IBLP or the board. It's been a while since I've posted; just to update, my connection to the RG community is that I attended an IBYC basic seminar in the early 80s and was negatively influenced by that teaching, as well as teaching for years to come by others who'd been similarly influenced. I also survived 28 legally-bound years of emotional, spiritual, and financial abuse from a profound narcissist (covert version), and find endless similarities in MOs between him and BG.

So BG equates legal clearance with innocence. Interesting. If I had time I'd search for Alfred's commentary from back when legal jeopardy was a looming possibility. Back then, the shortcomings of the legal system were expounded upon, and any legal liability would have been just a form of righteous persecution ... specifically NOT an accurate representation of true guilt or innocence. But now, in spite of the imperfections in our legal system that have allowed the charges against him to never require adjudication, somehow the previously imperfect system perfectly points to his innocence. And not just his legal innocence, but apparently an all-encompassing moral innocence to the point that he's suitable for ministry again. Nice.

Then in a stunning, though not surprising, display of grandeur, he packs his bags and prepares a prophetic message for those (a) he has manipulated previously (thereby especially vulnerable) and (b) who have proactively, legally, and officially cut ties with him for whatever reasons?? I can only imagine how it was SUPPOSED to have gone at Big Sandy (private property, except that it was given to HIM years earlier) ... A joyous celebration at the return of the recently-vindicated founder, followed by his obvious intention and ultimate objective, reinstatement to "his" ministry.

Reinstatement for ministry's sake wasn't so much the objective, I believe, as the restorative effect to his reputation that reinstatement would provide. His incessant assertion that there was supposed to have been a "talk" is an indication of how confident he was in his ability to verbally hook them all over again. (If I could just TALK to them!!) His chosen method of the surprise visit instead of waiting around for an invitation would've just enhanced their vulnerability.

Except it didn't. Because finally, somebody held him accountable. That's one of those sentences that needs to be be repeated x 4, with separate emphases on "finally" and "somebody" and "him" and "accountable."

Even if it was just for trespassing, and as soon as he was off the property he was off the hook, it's high time somebody did it and he couldn't weasel his way around it. There are far more - and far more serious - things he confirmed by his actions that he hasn't dealt with that seem less and less likely to be acknowledged in this lifetime. But thanks to the officer (I'm not aware of his name), there was this, and it finally seemed right.
- Elizabeth D May 11, 2018 Reply
  
  Just found who to thank for that brief shining moment, Big Sandy TX officer Taylor Fast.
  - rob war May 11, 2018 Reply
    
    Officer Fast did us all proud. He certainly is one of Big Sandy's finest in every sense of the word.
- rob war May 12, 2018 Reply
  
  you are exactly correct! You go girl!
- Leah May 14, 2018 Reply
  
  This is my first time commenting here (I’m ex ATI and an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse)... First, a giant THANK YOU! to those who run RG and to the brave women who risked themselves for others and for the truth by publishing their experiences. I believe you sisters! and way more than that, GOD BELIEVES YOU! He saw and sees, knows and understands the confusion, pain and repercussions you experience because of it. VENGEANCE IS HIS, HE WILL REPAY!
  
  Elizabeth’s sly reference to B*G*s teaching on meditation (repeating with emphasis on different words) got me laughing out loud!! Way to go girl! 100% agreed and of course the Somebody who is holding him accountable is God who will not give his glory to another.
  
  The only personal run-in I had with B*G* was on a 2 week stint I did at HQ in 2005. During a staff “wisdom search” in which he “trapped” us all with his twisted logic by asking “What does the seed represent in the parable of the sower?” Timid hands went up and each volunteer said “the Word of God” to which he gleefully replied with a sweep of his hand, “YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!!” and then went on to explain that it represents the Word of the Kingdom, blah, blah... Afterward my brother and I confronted him about saying we were “all wrong” because it is specified as the “Word of God” in Luke which made all of us right not wrong, he answered that “the Word of the Kingdom” is the specific term and “the Word of God” the broad term and the specific cancels the broad so therefore we were “all wrong”. Of course in his mind he had the sole right to define what is specific and what is broad and that one can cancel the other... a bunch of baloney! I’m sure many others also notice just by his book titles, his obsession with “success”, “secrets” and “power”.
  
  His extreme pride and lifting of himself above all others and even above God and His Word is now ripe and he is harvesting the results from the hand of the Maker of the law of harvest. Yes “finally” “Somebody” is “holding” him “accountable”.
  
  May God get him with a millstone and may he see the open door of true repentance!
  
  P.S. Twisted logic and texts-out-of-context-entrapment is what always rubbed me backwards and got me into REVOLT MODE during the “wisdom quizzes”...
  - Rachel May 15, 2018 Reply
    
    You are so right, Leah-- no matter what answer we gave, it was NEVER the correct one! SO FRUSTRATING!!
- David Pigg May 14, 2018 Reply
  
  Elizabeth D,Your wonderfully thought out comment deserves a reply;even though its my redundant comment,and like many goes without saying.Bill Gothard in my opinion will in his soulish manipulation find someone to cave into his superior "appraissement" of truth.He'll likely branch out into independant ministry with a slewful of volunteers to be exploited,victims to be sold down the river.Never forget the price, overwhelming price, that has to be paid for these heretical lies some of which were expounded upon by Nicole Gardner.His teachiings represent the supremacy of the triumph of man over the soul of his fellow man; in the ongoing caste system he created for us, never to strayed from for life,quiet little blessings of submission:A triumph of natural religion; you get out of it what you put into it;the lower classes may get suppressed,the cookie cutter may cut out deep feelings and aspirations for creativity,and beauty,and spontaneous praise,endeared relationships,but this must happen for the glory of his god[lower case].He may live much longer,but as you witnessed on the transcript,he's learned at best cunning persistent manuevering that for once did not work.This incident represents a victory for us low lifes that never really got the umbrella teaching,never recognized our place in his created world,and as such our influence must not be broadcast to others;but would only spread "rebellion against authority."
Nicole Gardner May 11, 2018 Reply

The “secret knowledge” of “There’s no such thing as personal rights” plus the might-makes-right Dumbrella equals dog-eat-dog. Except that the little guy is beaten with a rolled-up newspaper for trying to bite back. It’s all about *do one unto others before they do one unto you.* This is all there is to human relationships, according to IBLP; the concept of stewards protecting those under their care from the dangers of another Umbrella looming over is nixed-out of consideration.
Because, (1) No claim to might could possibly pose danger (since, under the Umbrella, it’s supposedly all good coming from the Umbrella), &, (2) It’s wrong to exercise any kind of personal right that any intimidating force would rather that you not exercise. It’s delusional to even imagine yourself to have a right, in the 1st place, so as to exercise it!
Mr. G must see this situation as even more of a power play than it is. Since he’s tried to convince everyone that his inappropriate touching was merely his doing his job of mentoring, he likely can’t comprehend all the objections to this. Just more insubordination that needs to be quelled by him! These people suffer the Satanic stronghold of an Independent Spirit!! How dare they express boundaries! Is how IBLP teaching would sift this.
When, really, there are real concerns about his abuse of authority to the point that personal autonomy HAD to be exerted............... to maintain, what was that called, ah, er, um................... personal autonomy.
And now, finally, Mr. G must be sitting there, scratching his head, saying “Well maybe that IS a thing, after all.”
Or not.
- Don Rubottom May 17, 2018 Reply
  
  Thanks for raising "yielding of rights"! In our analysis of the authority issues in the confrontation, the biggest hypocrisy shows up in that neither Bill NOR the Board yields any rights. "They" have the right to call law enforcement to enforce their authority. "He" has the right to be there "it was given to ME", "it is not private property", "I established this ministry", "I misspoke, it must be corrected, I am old and sympathetic, I am no threat to them, I drove all this way, I just wanted to meet with them, blah, blah, blah, Listen, LINDA!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP8RB7UZHKI
  So we see how the authority teaching nullifies the yielding of rights and vice versa. But did we EVER hear "do not lord it over as the Gentiles do"? We got lip service of "servant leadership" but ALWAYS in the garments of AUTHORITY. "I will serve you and you will not challenge me."
  We also see how the sowing and reaping of natural religion is the fallback of all of us, unfortunately. He is reaping what he sowed, but he is also being sifted now, possibly avoiding it later. It is natural. But it is not our faith. Our faith is in Grace alone.
  Lord deliver us all from reaping what we have sown. Free us from our confusion and dependency on being right, being in the right, and seeing the wrong fail. Make us to see Jesus overcome all of this. Lead us not into temptation. Deliver us from evil.
  All things are His, not Bills, not ours.
Daniel May 14, 2018 Reply

Does this ride to Big Sandy remind anyone of Napoleon's 100 Days after his return from Elba? The beloved Emperor was met by his foes that turned and joined his ranks.

Not trying to draw too many comparisons, but it seems like he was interested in a similar scenario? Maybe walk up on stage at the largest ATI/IBLP event of the year? Could the audience not applaud? He could explain how the lawsuit was dropped and the new insights that he'd received in the past years of renewed meditating?

IBLP/ ATI has taken a half step towards more mainstream thinking/ speakers in the meantime and Bill has taken a giant leap towards more bizarre teachings (check out some of his latest books). The IBLP Board can't relish the idea of Bill in his current state recovering the helm, regardless of all the behavioral issues.
Nicole Gardner May 14, 2018 Reply

http://m.blogs.christianpost.com/dynamic-dads/the-dangerous-bill-gothard-20000/

The above article was one of the many similar articles published prior to Mr. G being charged (hence, it reads that no charges were filed). But I think it is relevant, still, for shedding light on what motivation the current IBLP B.O.D. apparently had to have ordered Gothard out of Big Sandy. This article, too, comes from a patriarchal position. Although it concerns me greatly to see IBLP’s poison still proliferated, it heartens me some that at least some neo-conservative dads are staving-off an obvious threat to their daughters.

The perspective in this article is very enlightening in it’s pro-active stance.
Nicole Gardner May 14, 2018 Reply

Also, pertaining to a rumor I heard; do we know whether or not Mr. G was escorted off of the property at the Sacramento conference?!? I’m just wondering, because if so, then this would explain Mr. G’s assuredness, readiness, & unwavering decisiveness in answering Doug Horseman. (“Did my authorities ask you to leave?” “Yes.” “And you refused to leave?” “Yes I did.”) No doubt in Gothard’s mind, there!!!! Or, maybe such clarity regarding Horseman’s questions was merely due to what had been conveyed to Mr. G earlier that same day.
Samuel Lundmark May 14, 2018 Reply

Oh, yawn...I almost forgot about Bill G. (tongue in cheek). I mean, seriously...he's still at it?

It is quite comical though...Don't we ALL know that IBLP was supposed to yield it's property rights!

Have they so soon forgotten the principles!?? The machine is no longer under CONTROL--CONTROL ALGAR, MORE CONTROL!!!

Hey, maybe he needs to take a little wine for his stomach's sake? Oh, what? Cut back on the wine? hmm...aha...maybe that's the problem!...

It's all quite laughable if it weren't so sad. What was that little quote...but to see, then pity, then embrace...nah, I don't think so!

---
Well, don't get bitter, and it's also not especially righteous to nod, smile, and then proceed to get even! IYKWIM
kevin May 15, 2018 Reply

Some thoughts and comments after listening to the audio tape:

I'm not sure what Bill was thinking. I think this went much different than he expected. It has been mentioned over at DG that a joyous return was expected- a sort of victory celebration perhaps, after the lawsuit was ended. He was not received as he thought he would be.
Bill does as he pleases: He had been told to stay away from the premises. He did not listen. As he always has done, he does not handle it well when others tell him what to do and just does as he pleases.
The man who teaches that we must obey authority, apparently feels that he does not need to obey authority. The rules don't apply to him.
Bill did not seem stable or all together at all:
In his interactions with the officer,Bill was acting like he had been drinking or under the influence of drugs. I doubt that this was the case, perhaps it is a sign of mental illness or something. At one point someone, I think the Alert officer, apologizes to the police officer and the officer replies: "we deal with this all the time". I get what he means. I sometimes watch the TV show "Cops". The way Bill was behaving, he would have fit right in with one of the individuals being apprehended, in terms of the way that people resist and insist on their version of events. Bill seemed delusional and this is also something that the police deal with all the time.
It was interesting the way Bill tried to change his story. He tried to deny that he had been told to leave and refused. The officer had to remind him that he, the officer, heard him with his own ears admit that he had refused to leave and also that it was on tape. Still, Bill would not stop insisting on his own version of reality. It was like he was trying a Jedi mind trick on the officer, thinking that if he says "here is what happened, I did not admit to trespassing" the officer would agree with him, but he was not buying it. Bill's Jedi powers didn't work with officer Fast.
It is clear that Bill is not used to hearing the word "No". He kept trying to control the officer and tell him what to write in his report. The officer kept informing him that he had to write down his own personal observations. Bill just would not stop and tried to wear him down by telling him over and over to do it. Good for Officer Fast for not allowing Bill to control the situation. He is a very patient man.
Who is giving him council these days? Who encouraged him to barge into the Big Sandy conference uninvited and unannounced? Why isn't anyone telling him this is a bad idea, a really bad idea. I get the impression he is surrounded by "yes people" that agree with him on everything and don't dare oppose his view of anything.
Bill thinks it's all about him.
"I founded this ministry 50 years ago and (inaudible) has taken it over." True, he founded it. But, the ministry is set up with a board of directors that has the authority to make the final decisions.
It kind of reminded me of this one Cops episode I watched where someone broke into someone else's home and kept telling the police "this is my house, this is my house". And away they took him. Well he sure seems to think: "This is my ministry". And away they took Bill.
Bill is a lucky man. He is lucky for something called Statute of Limitations. He feels entitled- always has. He feels that the ministry is his and he can march down to Big Sandy and take things over again. He should be grateful for the Statute of Limitations and grateful that he is not in jail, after what he did, as reported by all of the women, when they were very young. But, instead, he feels robbed of something to which he feels entitled.
After hearing his actions on the tape and the things he said, I find it hard to believe he has repented whatsoever.
- rob war May 15, 2018 Reply
  
  Kevin, everything you just wrote is exactly correct. I thought Bill sounded befuddled a number of times. That could be do to his age and his probably shock that he was being told by the police to leave. But listening to his befuddlement makes me wonder how this 83 year old drove himself 14 hours to get there? I guess his side kick swears he didn't drive at all. I think Bill was thinking that they were going to let him stay because he drove all this way and IBLP was going to feel sorry for him. I thought I heard on the tape that he said someone told him to fly home. That sort of comment probably came when Bill argued that he should stay because he drove all that way.
Daniel May 15, 2018 Reply

My opinion.

I think one of the keys to understanding Bill is that he truly believes the stuff he teaches in the sense that he thinks it is his calling to teach it. He has spent 60 plus years being told how amazing and vital his teaching is, so he believes that people need to hear it. He feels like he is the guy. He believes that any new material he creates is amazing and vital and needs to be shared.

Those that don't recognize his personal charisma, intelligence, drive, and ability to overcome obstacles underestimate him. Of course, some of those personal gifts are starting to wear away with age. I think he puts all detractors in the same category- unjustified, or at least unjustified after apologizing to them. He doesn't believe he is perfect- just that his message is more important than individuals that would detract from it.
- rob war May 15, 2018 Reply
  
  yes, but then Bill should be happy because IBLP has not changed anything that they are offering, teaching and selling. It's still all of Bill's stuff. If Bill was just concerned about a continuation of his teaching, they are still doing it, selling it and there looks to be no modifications. I think Bill things (and those loyal to him) that they can't go on without him or at least shouldn't be able to. I would guess that Bill isn't selling too many of his 28 new books and want to get back to sell his new stuff which IBLP is not doing for him.
  - kevin May 16, 2018 Reply
    
    Rob,
    Didn't you once post that the new books are just a regurgitation of the old material? I find it hard to believe that Bill has come up with 28 books containing all new revelations.
    I imagine that IBLP owns all of the copyrights to his old material. This may be his way to work around copyright infringement laws- same thoughts- new cover?
    What do you think?
    - rob war May 16, 2018
      
      I did and still think a majority of these 28 booklets are regurgitation of his old stuff mixed in with some more of his bizarre medical ideas. I'm not sure who would have the copyright on his older teaching, but if it is IBLP, I would guess that Bill reworded or "changed" enough of these new books so that there isn't a copyright infringement.
  - Daniel May 16, 2018 Reply
    
    Rob, a lot is the same, but some of the new "medical" stuff about how the body is controlled by "reigns" and the "inner mind" is really New Age. Bill really likes to get involved in the medical side of things and tries to come up with new insights. He's fascinated with the relationship between endorphins and meditating on Scripture. It's pretty bizarre stuff that only the most credulous people in IBLP orbits could really... stomach.
    - rob war May 16, 2018
      
      Bill has no background in science or medicine whatsoever. He used the book from the 60s "None of these diseases" as a basis for his medical ideas presented in his seminars. That book (and I did read it a long time ago) blames complicated diseases like arthritis, cancer, etc. on emotions like anger, fear, bitterness, etc. I think this book has been debunked many times over. Look at arthritis, there are over 125 different kinds of arthritis ranging from autoimmune diseases like Rheumatoid to injury/joint damage like Osteo. They are not caused by the same things or reasons. So to boil them down to the cause of "bitterness" or anger is practicing medicine without a license which Bill is trying to do. Look at one of his new "booklets" on Alzheimers which the captions of the book is blaming "ingratitude" as the cause. What a bunch of crock. Ronald Reagan was one of the most optimistic positive persons I can think of. There was nothing ungrateful in Ronald Reagan and yet this disease took away his mind and memory. Bill also is trying to make some sort of case with the kidneys and gut cells as what really control one's brains and emotions and to change these gut cells, one has to "memorize" enough scripture. Bill really needs to stop playing around with science and medicine. If what is left of IBLP and ATI want Bill's new stuff, they can go to his web site and buy it themselves. No one is stopping them. Just reading the blips on these books ought to make one want to throw-up.
    - kevin May 17, 2018
      
      Bill has no problem pretending to be an expert on things which he is not qualified to teach on.
      He is an expert on raising children- yet he has never had a child.
      He is an expert on marriage- yet never married.
      An expert on medicine- yet no medical credentials and displays a complete lack of understanding of the way in which medical science works.
    - rob war May 22, 2018
      
      Kevin,
      exactly, it is called "jack of all trades, expert in none". It's almost amazing that so many people took such specific marriage and parenting advice from someone that has done neither.
- kevin May 16, 2018 Reply
  
  Daniel,
  You commented:
  "Those that don't recognize his personal charisma, intelligence, drive, and ability to overcome obstacles underestimate him."
  
  I agree. These are traits possessed by virtually all cult leaders. Without charisma, drive and intelligence, it is hard to make others believe that you are the anointed one. The hard core followers clearly believe this. And, yes, age is taking away from those abilities at this point. It happens to all of us. The 83 year old Bill just doesn't have the same special sauce that the 65 year old Bill had.
  - rob war May 22, 2018 Reply
    
    Yea, the police audio clearly show he is lacking in the mojo department now. Bill's internet defenders have shifted from defending his teaching to defending him as a person, even comparing him to Walt Disney. Unbelievable. Bill's actions here have almost single handedly dismantled his authority teaching because he can't obviously follow or listen to anyone that actually has legitimate authority. But then, Bill really shouldn't have had a BoD or authority because that would have limited Bill's ability to "move in the spirit". The hypocrisy of this is that Bill very specifically taught that to follow God, one had to be "under authority". I clearly remember my first seminar in 1979 and Bill opened Tues. night with "if you want great faith, you had to be under authority". Bill's action and those defending him have dismantled the high point of Bill's teaching which was authority and submission to it.
    - Daniel May 30, 2018
      
      It's kind of ironic. He's experiencing the claustrophobic feeling of a manufactured spiritual authority. Even in the hammer-chisel model, the parachurch organization does not appear, yet they always practiced as if it was one of the bulging arms swinging the hammer. Even ATI families that were "out from under authority" got whacked.
      
      Bill, that sucky feeling you are experiencing when you got run over by an overgrown Alert Cadet... we know what it feels like. Maybe now you are starting to understand that suffocating feeling.
      
      What, you got sent to a little room and sent home for wanting to have conversations with girls? Yeah, a few of us had that experience too.
David Pigg May 23, 2018 Reply

I have spent about an hour reading the comments on Discovering Grace and will only say that inside my weaknesses,inabilities,and incapacities to effectively communicate the truth as an entity;I still have dignity!!!Alfred,who was dismissed from this websightr years ago,for his callousness,has reflected Bill's image, reproduced it,and focused it upon those in opposition.Like teacher like desciple.Darkness. Contrived as light. Manipulated as logic and ration,all the efforts of anyone be it Larne,Rob War,Don Rubottom,parried,denied and emptied of all but the most rudimentary of content.After all its his websight his invented points of contention and denial;truth is out for reevaluation and adjusting so as to make the pain of our experience even greater and intensify the screams of the conscience.I will have to wonder as to what people who have read these comments over there have to deal with,with their own shattered memories.Maybe the pain was our imagination given Alfred's overt gestures of reason and logic.Eighteen thousand dollars for the Plaintiffs/victims?Counter lawssuit?Beyond words.
- rob war May 23, 2018 Reply
  
  Yes, you absolutely have dignity! One can only spin in defense of Bill Gothard so far. A number of the excuses and defenses of Bill do more to incriminate Bill than prove his innocence. When Bill is compared to "Shepherd of the Hills" and "old fashioned guy" or "in his own world" or worried about ministry to young women or "had no sexual intent" or "had girls tripping over each other to gain his attention or approval" or his staff was his family etc. etc.
  then what all of that is saying is that Bill had a problem and everyone over there knew it and saw it but then one turns around and claims that all these women are lying about Bill has just become too much. To allow someone to post and compare police work to a "harlot's work" and that if a police officer is having sex with someone as "perks of the job" and compare that to the officer that had to deal with befuddled and bull headed Bill is so over the top and sick that it is beyond belief. But that garbage was allowed on. There comes a time and point and realization that continued debate is only leading someone into further entrenchment in Bill's madness and justification which is based on emotionality and sentimentality and not truth, reason and logic.
  - kevin May 24, 2018 Reply
    
    "A number of the excuses and defenses of Bill do more to incriminate Bill than prove his innocence."
    
    This is also my take on the defenses offered by Alfred. The defenses grow increasingly bizarre. As you have noted, Bill has recently gone against one of his own "non-optional" principles; his authority teaching. The board is the legal controlling authority of the IBLP property. They have every legal right to tell Bill that he is not allowed to be there and to leave. He ignored them and entered the premises and refused to leave when asked.
    He did not respect their authority, and he also did not seem to have any respect of the police officer's authority, having a confrontational attitude, trying to instruct the officer what he must do.
    So, now Alfred makes the argument that Bill is not obligated to obey the board. He even goes so far as to argue, using truly twisted reasoning, that the board is required to obey Bill.
    
    Bottom line, in the eyes of his defenders, Bill can do no wrong. If he breaks the law, he is still in the right- he is still the victim. If he does not obey the property owner's, that's ok, they are the ones who need to obey him. And the way he dismisses the dozens of young female victims, suggesting the stories are fabricated, truly disgusting.
  - Nicole Gardner May 26, 2018 Reply
    
    I’ve been avoiding DG ever since the Moderator, in having a specific sexual assault described to him in response to his questions, thus cataloged the perpetrator: “throw it all away for one dalliance.” The vicarious narcissism on behalf of the pervert was almost as bad as the minimizing of the victimization. From the sounds of it, Rob, seeking-out a “dalliance” seems to be very forefront in the thinking over there on DG, still to this day. Suggesting that a licensed officer of the state is comparable to one trying to get laid, for doing his job of ordering a creeper of off the property he’s been ordered not to trespass on, is, indeed, “beyond belief.” It also makes me wonder if they have any other catagory whatsoever by which to process life occurrences. Other than “throw it all away on one dalliance”, “perks of the job” (in specific reference to utilizing a harlot while on the clock), saying that good counseling necessarily involves all kinds of grabby-hand-approaches to everything, then having said that even little children need to counter-attack when attacked by a full-grown adult, and that angels are near by to slay their attacker if only they cry out as a moral duty, while yet maintaining that NOT ONE of one’s adult daughters is permitted to fill out a job application or set foot on a college campus; even though the oldest was then 27 years of age. It makes me wonder if THAT think tank meets in the breeding department of a zoo, or possibly in the locker room of a questionable circus, or perhaps during a mail-order-bride assignment project. (“We’re going to have to start parading the giraffes out first. The elephants have been interacting with the crowd too much; better keep ‘em behind some others. Oh, & dress the chimpanzees in the pink tutus. Don’t let the zebras swish their tails. And see if we can do some trades up the river.”) This is the circus they’re running over there at DG: any and every ridiculousness, wherever it may fall on a scale ranging from idiotic to criminal, will continue to have it’s doer presented as having the whole world as his oyster. Because, don’t we know, he’s just been trying to navigate a world utterly littered with Sex Objects!!!!!! That are nothing more than that. Not to their father, or even potentially to anyone else. How else could one see them?!? (Sarcasm permeates the 4 sentences most previous to this one).
    I hope Gothard bequeaths his infamous kitchen table to A. upon his deathbed. So A.’s daughters can auction it out from under him to the highest bidder for the bonfire. Then maybe they could afford a group counseling session. At which point, the same agents who rescued the Turpin kiddos would be brought in. Because.......... there really IS more to a person (even a female person) than could potentially be sold to a buyer who happens along.
    - rob war May 26, 2018
      
      Yes, I totally understand. The problem with having an objectified view of women or women are there to serve men and sitting and following this type of teaching for many years is that someone will not see or understand that this wasn't a "one time" action or "dalliance" and that that pervert behaves this way towards other women as well. While Alfred didn't make those over the top comments about the morality of police and someone else did, he did allow them on since everything over there goes through Alfred's moderating. So a link to another State over police morality that has nothing to do with Big Sandy or this officer, is allowed on yet when Larne or I make legitimate points that Alfred can't answer or defend we are call "cursing". It also bothers me that Alfred mocks the fact that RG has at the request of different women removed their testimonies about their experiences with Bill. Yet if you look at the link on DG about the positive so called testimonies of women with Bill or in support of Bill, that has now whittled down to just 4, and one of them is only a testimony of "healing" due to Bill's prayers, nothing more. Was it because those stories were false as Alfred has accused others over here? You can't have it both ways.
Nicole Gardner May 26, 2018 Reply

It would make sense to me that the women who testified here on RG, whose same accounts were hit with the backlash against the truth that we’ve all seen on DG, tried to get a break from it by taking them down. The mockery that’s been done to their accounts has long been perfectly understandable motive for them to take measures to get this ridicule to cease & desist. What doesn’t make sense, though, is for anyone claiming to be a Christian to be making fun of their reports. As A. has been doing for years. Obviously, he has never been hit on at any time in his life, let alone sexually harassed or abused by a teacher or supervisor. Hence the _*what happens, happens....... just so it doesn’t happen to me*_ stance on the experiences he’s making fun of. I hope that he never finds himself in prison. The likely scenario there would switcharoo his take on the present status quo. That would serve to be very unpleasant to him. Meanwhile, there is no similar motive for the positive testimonies on DG to have been removed. Whatever truth these few might have contained did not result in persecution of the tellers of these accounts. So.......... where’s the motive behind THEIR removal?!?!? Perhaps because the submitters were logic-adept enough to realize that just because Gothard didn’t harass/abuse them is no negation whatsoever of other incidences in which he did do so. Just because I never crashed my car into you doesn’t _*prove*_ that I never hit anyone else with it. What’s happened is what’s happened; not even Gothard can erase concrete events. Incidences belong IN time, certainly not TO him or his buddy.

This is a reality that BG apparently could not get his brain around when the cop showed up. Officer Fast kindly tried to allay his repulsion to signing the order. “I think you think this is more serious than it is,” he told him in response to Mr. G.’s ardent objections. After all, one couldn’t be objecting to protocol as enforced by a State Officer except due to inflation of irrational fears, now right? So, Officer Fast explained what a No Trespass meant going forward from that moment. At one point telling him that he was refusing to sign it (as he was); this was one of 2 reasons the cop gave in direct counter of Mr. G.’s claim that the BoD supposedly told him they wanted him to stay for the meeting. As if they didn’t want him to leave!!!! (The 1st reason the Officer gave was that he’d heard him say that he’d been asked to leave & that yes, he had refused). That was the MAIN THING over which Mr. G dug in his heels............... according to him himself, as long as he thought he was getting away with it. Proved he could defy the BoD; since they told him something that he thought he didn’t have to honor, he was BANKING ON his defiance. Not just defying, but DEFYING just to DEFY. This was a Gothard’s whole point. The issue he chose to use as his tool was attendance of that conference. Likely because he’s been escorted away from the Sacramento one already; he had found a sticking-point, which is what you have to find in anyone you’re going to defy. (Probably the same reason for which he went for conservative, reticent young girls). Established facts, both of them. You can be sure that Mr. G was NOT telling Levindusky, Bates, & Paine: “I think you think that this is a lot more serious than it is,” as Officer Fast graciously said to Bill. No way. You can bet that Gothard wanted them to reach DEFCON 1 over it so that his remaining on the premises & insistence upon a meeting would have maximizum subduing effect. No spoonful of sugar with the medicine when HE was the one doling it out!!!! Just _*authoritarianism*_ just as he prescribes it.
All this attempt at power play.
Then:
Mr. G shifts so diabolically.
The main thing, that was the main thing because he had craftily made it the main thing, suddenly was denied in “there’s been a misunderstanding. You see, they never asked me to leave. I never refused to leave.”
This kind of schizophrenic re-writing was bad enough in Texas. But it’s even worse when it’s applied, as Gothard & A. both have, to Gothard’s power tripping in the realm of sexual harassment & exploitation.
Power tripping & then lying about the terms on which it’s done, in order to do it, is always bad. But doing it with regard to sexual harassment & abuse is 10x worse.
Jane July 22, 2018 Reply

In light of the #MeToo Movement, and the several millions of dollars raised by many prominent and famous people for a legal fund to fight their abusers and bring them to justice, I would like to encourage the former plaintiffs to take their case to the administrators of the legal fund, in hopes that they would receive enough financial support to refile their complaints, and to finally have their day in court. Bravo to them for standing up against, and speaking out against their abusers. Spiritual Legalism and (sexual) abuse run rampant among religious leaders, so it's long past time that they be held accountable. Please don't give up your fight!!! I pray that y'all would find healing, even if it doesn't happen through the "judicial" system. (Although I hope that you are able to have your days in court!) Thank you for your courage!!!
G.A. August 13, 2018 Reply

Thank you RG for shedding light on current events.
Based on firsthand interaction during the years I was an ATI kid, I believe that the current leadership of IPLP/ATI are a clear case of 'like master, like disciple.' And I'll look for these men to follow Gothard's pattern, not that of Christ. Specifically, it will probably take decades, but the same hypocrisy and arrogance will come to light.
I believe this confidently because they uphold the same flawed, unscriptural doctrines.
I consider it a fortunate occurrence that no current leader has displayed Gothard's level of charisma, and that I don't know of new dupes being recruited into what I consider to be the cult of IBLP/ATI. thanks
Larne Gabriel August 14, 2018 Reply

Interesting?

Discoveringgrace.com now requires a username and password. Interesting day for this to happen.
- kevin August 14, 2018 Reply
  
  Larne,
  I noticed the same think when I tried to open the discoveringgrace.com site this morning. It appears that Alfred has taken it private. That is interesting indeed.
- pam August 14, 2018 Reply
  
  what do you mean "interesting day for this to happen"?
  thanks
Larne Gabriel August 14, 2018 Reply

There was a scheduled court hearing today, based on the Dupage court website.
- kevin August 21, 2018 Reply
  
  I think that there is a very good chance that their legal counsel instructed them to take it private.
  Anyone know the update on Bill's attempt to collect legal fees from the plaintiffs?
  For an accused sexual abuser to legally go after his victims, it does not look good to the public. I can see why they would want to limit public exposure as much as possible.
  So far I've seen and heard nothing about Bill being returned to any leadership role at IBLP, as DG was lobbying for, almost demanding. That is good. I can't see them ever returning him. The Youtube video regarding his trespassing made it very clear where they stand regarding him.
  - rob war August 21, 2018 Reply
    
    I agree with you 100% and with the trespass warning, I don't think he will be back at IBLP at all. At his age, what will this do for him? It makes him look vengeful and spiteful, everything he taught against. The evangelical world has moved on beyond him and he is a pariah.
    - kevin August 21, 2018
      
      I think seeing Bill back at IBLP is about as likely as seeing Bill Cosby pitching Jello Pudding again.
JPU August 19, 2018 Reply

"Mr. G shifts so diabolically."
That's a key to this whole mess, isn't it? Why no one has a solid answer on, DOES he forbid adoption, DOES he forbid one going to college other than his own versions of it, and on and on.
Yes, the fact that there's a scheduled hearing the day DG goes private, that IS interesting.
And now BG is trying to sell his new books at a reduced cost or give them away if you're financially unable to buy them full price? Out of "love"?
kevin August 21, 2018 Reply

For some of those who might have missed some of the more recent Gothard news events:

https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/bill-gothard-iblp-159137
Larne August 28, 2018 Reply

It looks like DG is open for "business' again with a new look and a new story line. If anyone needs to induce vomiting try DG instead of Ipecac syrup.
- rob war August 29, 2018 Reply
  
  Yeah, it will definitely have that effect.
- kevin September 21, 2018 Reply
  
  Back with more gaslighting than ever before. Nauseating!
Terry A. Price September 13, 2018 Reply

As a college student, in 1962 I first met Bill Gothard when he was doing chalk drawings locally in the Chicago area. I knew him very well as well as his staff. They had an office in the basement of the Gothard home in LaGrange,Il.Since the late sixties, I have had conversations with Bill Gothard over years but I was not an ardent follower of his ministry. Recently I was really shocked to learn of the allegations and attacks upon him.In the early years, he ws extremely careful to guard against any hint moral lapse or sin. Yet it is now apparent that Satan was at work all the time.

This has certainly turned into huge mess and disgrace upon the Lord Jesus. But in a larger view we see how corrupt the American church has become. I think that back in about 1970 or so, I spoke to Mr. Gothard about the trends he was taking, the making of a huge religious enterprise and how I felt he was leaving his original callings as a youth evangelist on the urban streets. If you could have seen him back then, you could recognize that he had gift from the Lord to reach pagan youth with the gospel. But did the Holly Spirit leave them way back there? Perhaps.

But it is possible to grieve the Holy Spirit away by sin and to lose your salvation. History is full of examples of this reality.
In short, I think that the whole thing has become a situation so terrible that only a miracle from God can salvage it. But the true church, the Body of Christ will continue on through the coming ages until our Lord returns. The Bill Gothard I knew back then is totally unlike the Bill Gothard of today. He is in deep deception. God have mercy.
Larne September 14, 2018 Reply

Terry,

I find your history with Bill to be very unique, much of his very early history is shrouded behind Bill's version. It has been impossible to find people who can verify his version and is as if it was sanitized. For example, why was he "dismissed" from his first youth ministry? I attended my first seminar in 1972 and was first involved as a volunteer in 1973 and on staff in 1979-80. My late wife was on staff in late 1970 as an 18 year old. It would be interesting to hear your observations in detail and why you were not an ardent follower. I would agree with you that Bill changed as the ministry grew and would add the "means justifying the ends" became the primary method of administration.
- Julia Fetters October 5, 2018 Reply
  
  It would be helpful to hear more from Terry.
kevin September 27, 2018 Reply

Bill is sent to prison.
After being accused of sexual abuse by scores of women, spanning decades, an 81 year old man named Bill was finally brought to justice.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/us/bill-cosby-sentence-assault/index.html

Bill Cosby's crimes finally caught up with him.

Bill Gothard remains a free man. Perhaps justice will find him one day as well.
- rob war September 27, 2018 Reply
  
  I think justice comes in many forms. He is no longer at the helm of IBLP. When he even attempted to attend a recent retreat, they called the police to escort him out and gave him a trespassing warning. He is now sitting at his childhood home in obscurity writing books that no one buys. He is no longer the big name that he once was in the 70-80s. The Evangelical movement has definitely moved on without him. Whoever has met with him privately and told him that they support him or want him back have made absolutely public efforts or statements on line or else where. The one blog trying to defend Bill basically in defending him is admitting that he surrounded himself with beautiful young women purposely but it is justified because Bill was doing ministry or inspired by beautiful people ( I would like to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge). With friends like that, who needs enemies. I personally do not believe his counter suit will end well ... for him. I don't think this Bill will end up like the other Bill in jail, he wasn't being accused of full fledge sexual assault, but the insignificance and isolation for someone that once was a mover and shaker is in the end worst than a jail sentence and that in the long view is justice that everyone is seeking.
  - kevin October 1, 2018 Reply
    
    Good points Rob. Yes, for a narcissist, being dethroned and banished is a huge punishment.
    
    I also read those articles on DG about why he surrounded himself with beautiful girls. Crazy! They actually admit it now...and, the amazing part, actually try to rationalize it. One can only wonder if they have any clue how creepy and bizarre their articles come across to anyone not living in their brain washed bubble? Evidently not.
rob war October 1, 2018 Reply

I am still in shock with the latest two excuses. OMG! I can't imagine Bill's lawyers being very happy about them. It it an admission that Bill surrounded himself deliberately with young attractive women, or that their parents sent them to him, or that these girls were tripping over themselves to be near him, or he is like Shepherd of the Hill, or he had no "sexual intent", or he is an "old fashioned kinda guy", or that he is in his own world and one just has to "know" Bill to understand him. The last one reminds of the Michael Jackson excuses. BTW, I would like to sell you a bridge.
rob war October 1, 2018 Reply

Kevin,
I'm not sure if you paid attention to the old Michael Jackson sex abuse case and charges but he had one very public defender in Geraldo Rivera and Geraldo emphatically stated that one just had to know Michael Jackson and that a grown man inviting over unrelated boys and that they all slept together in the same bed was just Michael and one just had to know Michael to understand him. You know, any grown man that invites over unrelated boys in order for them to sleep all together is up to no good. So another grown man that repeatedly and deliberately surrounds himself with very attractive young women in the name of "ministry" is also asking for trouble. How stupid does one think we all are? These excuses fly like a lead ballon.
- kevin October 4, 2018 Reply
  
  Rob,
  Good point.
  Yes, I do recall that one of the defenses regarding M. Jackson was that he was a kid at heart and he liked to have sleepovers, like kids do. It was very bizarre behavior to say the least, and the idea that a grown man did not know better is hard to believe.
  But, I do think it is important to point out that there is far more evidence of misconduct against Gothard, compared to Jackson. Jackson had one accuser, so it became a matter of whose word do you believe. Gothard had over a dozen willing to join the lawsuit and go public, and as many as 50+ according to Recovering Grace and the private contacts they received, most of which apparently wanted to remain anonymous.
  I can understand how a reasonable person might have trouble reaching the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" with Jackson. With Gothard, I don't see how any reasonable person would have any doubt whatsoever. Gothard should thank the Lord every day for the Statute of Limitations.
  - rob war October 6, 2018 Reply
    
    Yes, you point out great differences between the two. Jackson had only one, Bill not only has many different girls but had a previous sex scandal with his brother and has many observers that Bill was always surrounded or accompanied by pretty young girls within his ministry as he worked and moved around. To then have someone defend Bill with "Shepherd of the Hills" or that Bill felt "ministry" to young women or that Bill was "inspired" by pretty young girls IS admitting that he set up a situation where Bill purposely and repeatedly surrounding himself with pretty young women. To also state that girls were tripping over themselves to be near Bill or that parents deliberately asked Bill to "help" their pretty troubled girls, is just blaming this whole situation on others and not taking responsibility for Bill's own actions and choices. To state that Bill "didn't know" that pulling someone's hair out of their coat could be inappropriate behaviors with female staff means that he was touching these girls. To have secretaries sit in his lap which was the testimony from the previous scandal, means that Bill still didn't learn the lessons from his brother. But secretaries just plopped themselves into Bill's lap. Girls were just trying to be near Bill. It's all blame others, not himself or taking responsibility for himself.
- kevin October 4, 2018 Reply
  
  And, the idea of him surrounding himself with beautiful teen girls to do the Lord's work? Well, bridges anyone? Who'd like to buy the Washington Monument, hurry, this price won't last!
  Yet, to those conditioned to believe that Gothard has a pipeline of sorts from God, with new revelations and insights all the time, they accept it unquestioningly, just like all the false teachings.
  - Julia Fetters October 5, 2018 Reply
    
    The biggest regret I have in life - "believe that Gothard has a pipeline of sorts from God..."
    
    I wish my husband and I had seen. I wish we did not take that slippery slope to idolatry and legalism. Oh how I wish. But that is over now...
    
    Our First Love took us back with open arms and forgiveness. Praise to His name!
MITCHELL CHAPMAN October 26, 2018 Reply

GO TO ILLINOIS ATTONEY GENERAL WEBSITE. CLICK ON REPORT CLERGY ABUSE HOTLINE.
REPORT ANY ABUSE

GOD BLESS
MITCHELL
- kevin November 19, 2018 Reply
  
  Here is the direct link:
  
  http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/victims/index.html#clergyhotline
kevin November 21, 2018 Reply

There is a newer article published about Bill Gothard, linked below. Julie appears to be a new victim who reports some very disturbing behavior:

https://newrepublic.com/article/151787/bill-gothard-fundamentalist-trap
- b badger November 22, 2018 Reply
  
  Thanks, Kevin. I had planned to pass on the news, but you can see what good that did. For the rest of you, there are even a few words from Steve Gothard!
  - kevin November 23, 2018 Reply
    
    "He is waiting for word on a property in Mexico that, due to legal maneuverings, could be returned to him. If that happens, Bill could build a new base of operations."
    
    I find this troubling. The vast majority of families in the US would know not to allow their daughters to be alone with a man accused of sexual molestation. If a new operation is started up in Mexico, it is unlikely that they would have any information on his past.
rob war November 23, 2018 Reply

I think Bill's mother was from Mexico or her father certainly was (Bill's grandfather). Yes, he would no longer be under US laws but realistically with all the problems and outright danger in Mexico, can one honestly see him setting up a new base in Mexico and who is really going to follow him down there? Thanks Kevin for sharing the article. I thought it was well researched and written and that he did is homework. In the comments that are reported from Steve Gothard, it sounded like Steve didn't want to talk and denied even initially talking with the author. To me, that makes him sound unrepentant and unremorseful.
Cindy Brunson November 24, 2018 Reply

The article “The Fundmentalist Trap” by Joshua Pease in The
New Republic is excellent. I hope that someone will also write
an article about how boys and young men in IBLP and ATI were
mistreated and harmed. We belonged to a small church in late 80s
and early 90s that became a Gothardite church several months
after we joined. We attended one basic and one advanced seminar
not realizing at the time that IBLP was a cult. We unfortunately used
ATI homeschooling materials for almost 3 years. We could tell there
was something wrong with the Wisdom booklets because of the
pretests at the beginning of each booklet. Very seldom did the scrip-
tures referenced go along with the answers or points that were made.
This was in 1993-96 and my 12 yr old son and 9&1/2 yr old daughter
knew it! We were in Central Asia at the time and I’ll always be grateful
to God for those 3 years we were away from the influence of our little
Gothardite church and got to experience life with different kinds of people.
We needed that time away to open our eyes to the truth and we quit using
Gotardite curriculum. Also, someone gave us a book exposing Gothard for
the evil man he really was. That was another eye opener. The sad hard truth
is that when we’ve tried to share what we’ve learned about Bill Gothard with
former fellow church members, we are either not believed or we’re told, “That
was a long time ago.” and “Bill said and taught some good things.” or “There
are no perfect Christians.” Although Gothard no longer has his own active
ministry his teachings are still being taught in some churches; they simply aren’t
attributed to him.
b badger November 25, 2018 Reply

I too have been curious. Maybe some of us can live to find out what the reason(s) was. If you google "Bill Gothard Hi-Crusader Clubs", you will find a link to a book excerpt about the two. Bill didn't appeal for funds; loss of revenue meant a rapid deterioration of their program. Youth For Christ became a competitor and eventually absorbed the once thriving organization.

I appreciate your contributions here and at DG. Being fond of history, I enjoy your perspective. My first Basic Seminar was July 1975 in Seattle. I don't know if I saw you and/or you saw me. (I did make a point of observing and meeting Bill when I could.) I was entranced by what I heard and read and thought that if I was able to apply the principles, especially a clear conscience, I would be so happy (personal utopia). At that point I was suffering from depression and, I would guess, anxiety and looking for an solution. I also wished that I could work for the Institute (where people apply the principles!), a corporate utopia. Oops. Bill wouldn't have hired me in any case. I have been curious about life under Bill in those days and have enjoyed finding out from you and others something about what it was really like.
b badger November 25, 2018 Reply

The above was meant to be a reply to Larne's Sept 14 comment.
- Larne November 25, 2018 Reply
  
  b badger
  
  I had some great times in the 18 months I was on staff and made some amazing friends that still get together at reunions that ex-staff come from all over the place. There is also little talk about Gothard, we for the most part have moved on to more important things, our walk with the Lord and family. Yet there was still lasting true harm done to many who were on the 1980 staff.
  I was barely on staff a month and realized I had made an awful mistake but God had a reason for me to be there and I endured only to find out it was sadly to understand the oppression that my future wife endured working there and to understand her pain. I like you saw green pastures from the other side of the fence but those pastures were full of pit vipers and mounds of manure. There were great people on staff who just wanted to serve the Lord and did so. It's hard to understand unless you were there. But God is Good and His Grace and Mercy are everlasting.
  - B Badger November 25, 2018 Reply
    
    It seems to be a case of mixing both truth and error and good and evil to make the latter effective.
    
    While this neither speaks to the overall effect of the seminar on me, nor to what it was that made me vulnerable to becoming Bill's decades long devotee, the ministry did, I believe, benefit me in specific ways and still does.
    
    Similarly, Bill had to have done some things right to have become famous and influential (personal sense of purpose, diligence, personal discipline, determination, making others want to help him, and any others), as well as gaining and keeping the loyalty and devotion of his staff to the degree that he did. I have read that abusers do not mistreat their victims all or even most of the time.
    
    As "exhorters" of any religious stripe instinctively understand while non-exhorters such as myself do not, it is possible to make lemonade out of any kind of lemons. May God continue to do so in your life. Thanks for the feedback.
  - B Badger November 26, 2018 Reply
    
    Re certain on staff, I suppose one could say that leaving in 1980 was/could be a good character reference.
    The same might hold true for those or some of those who distanced themselves from Bill in the wake of certain recent information about him. Am I wrong in detecting a certain lack of empathy in some die hard commenters on his behalf?
    - Larne November 26, 2018
      
      I can't speak to the motivations or hearts of others just myself. This whole process over the past 38 1/2 years has taught me to seek the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone and not a man or men. And to be more like Christ in everything we do. (Acts 26:18; 2 Tim. 2:21; Gal. 2:20; Heb. 2:11 & 12:10)
      
      Regarding leaving in 1980, most staff did, some did not and I still am friends with some of those that did not. They had their reasons. Our friendships were more important than who we supported in employment or ministry. (Heb. 12:14)
      
      Leaving wasn't about my character but God had a new plan for my life that involve the ministry of healing a wounded soul. As I look back at my life and career from childhood to the retired side, I can see God hand of providence that has guide and provided in ways that can only be credited to that mighty hand of the Creator of the Universe. My life before the Institute was to prepare me for that journey, my life at the Institute was to prepare me for my life after the Institute which was to teach me to rely solely on Him. It's a never ending process. We can trust that whatever the outcome is that God has a reason and a perfect plan and that the ultimate goal is to become more like Him.
David Pigg November 28, 2018 Reply

For those unwilling to face the fallout behind the enormous cost of Gothardism,the price comes in two "installments",the initial surface "tip of the iceberg",damaged relationships,exploitation of the vulnerable,emotional,and spiritual darkness,along with the condemnation of not measuring up to Bill's supramoralism.I paid the price.The next price is the subliminal.Many would deny this "part of the iceberg".How about witchcraft?Look at Gal.3:1.From Gothard's subliminal realm,it's harder to accept what can't be earned.Grace will feel so distant as "you get out of it what you put into it".Memorize this,follow this "principle".The mind,the rational will become utterly all.Fear of forgetting a "key element",with its torment of not enough good works.All of this,or the reverse deception,no other options!!Pride.Self righteousness.If there is no renunciation these are the "afterward":the dark pulling of the soul into vanity,or condemnation.Light exchanged.That is,if there ever was light.I paid this price as well.
- David Pigg December 4, 2018 Reply
  
  Far too many religious people I see in a dark room holding on to a torn,empty wineskin.
Jay R December 16, 2018 Reply

A fund has been established to help survivors find and keep their voice in ongoing court actions with Bill Gothard. A few generous donors have offered to match your gift, dollar-for-dollar, until the end of 2018. For every $1 you give, they will match up to $15,000. Your donation to The Hope of Survivors (THOS) is tax-deductible. Please visit the THOS Facebook page and share the post with your friends.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/thehopeofsurvivors/posts/
- Kevin December 23, 2018 Reply
  
  Jay,
  Thank your for letting us know about how folks can help.
  
  Here is direct link to the same fund:
  
  https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Victim-Assistance-Fund-Being-Established-.html?soid=1101981173406&aid=LosAbrLhJcw
Kevin T. December 19, 2018 Reply

Well folks, it looks like the perverted teachings of Gothard and IBLP are still bearing it's rotten fruit, spreading it's poison in whomever it touches: "Duggar family is embroiled in yet another major scandal. And this one involves the family's most mild-mannered member, fan favorite Jana Duggar." https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2018/12/jana-duggar-wrapped-up-in-another-duggar-sex-scandal-exclusive/
- rob war December 24, 2018 Reply
  
  I'm not sure if he ever really "dated" Jana. He was showing up in pictures with the Duggar children for a while and the gossip columns that follow them were making assumptions that he was there as a potential prospect for Jana. I think the bigger concern should be if he was really a Jana potential or if he was "interested" in the younger Duggar girls. We will never know the truth here. Their live in help Tabitha married a man that was charged with an anal rape of a girl. They are sick people in more ways than one.
- kevin December 24, 2018 Reply
  
  As much as IBLP and Gothard deserve criticism for their teachings, it really does not make any sense to connect them to this man's sins. 1) You can't blame IBLP and Gothard for the sin of every person who crosses paths with a family that is involved in the organization. Where does that end? That can start to turn into the 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon, where people get linked because they knew someone who knew someone. 2) It appears that the gossip about his courting Jana are most likely false anyway.
  
  And while the Duggars deserve much criticism for their promotion of their cult, it is important that we remember that they, too, are victims.
  - rob war December 24, 2018 Reply
    
    I agree with you. From what I remember reading about him when he was showing up in pictures was that he wasn't from IBLP. He later denied being in a courtship with Jana. I remember him being in pictures with more of the younger Duggar children than with Jana directly, which should lead to a concern as to why he was there and what or who was he interested in to begin with.
kevin January 11, 2019 Reply

Praise God for the court ruling yesterday, in favor of the victims. As many of you know, Bill Gothard was suing 7 of the victims, claiming that their lawsuit was frivolous and seeking to be reimbursed for attorney's fees. The judge did not agree with him and ruled in favor of the women.
- rob war January 12, 2019 Reply
  
  Yes, and now he has to pay his own lawyers with his own money which according to DG, he doesn't have. I suppose he better get busy selling books. Maybe some of the wealthier IBLP supporters like the Green family, the Duggars or the Kimray guy will foot the lawyer bill. The whole counter suit was nuts to begin with and he doesn't have IBLP footing his bills any more. I thought IBLP did pay for the previous lawyer fees with the first law suit that was withdrawn. I don't see him continuing to counter anyone, IBLP, RG, or anyone else in court, he will have to eventually start paying his own lawyers over this. I saw on his own web site asking for money to "help" with his "ministry". It would be more honest to say help with the lawyers because really that's what it will go to. Totally dishonest.
  - kevin January 20, 2019 Reply
    
    Didn't he teach that Christians should not sue other Christians?
    
    It is hard to imagine that someone is paying his legal bills. I wonder how long that will continue, if it is in fact happening.
    - rob war January 22, 2019
      
      Yes, he repeated several times in the seminars I attended. The classic example of "do what I say, but not as I do". But, in all these testimonies of the different women, he violated numerous teachings, of not touching the opposite sex if not married, not being along with the opposite sex, men counseling women, etc. So with numerous violations of his own stuff, it really isn't surprising that not going to court would be followed by himself because he has demonstrated very well, he can't follow his own teaching or believes it doesn't apply to him because he is just so special.
Nicole Gardner January 12, 2019 Reply

Kevin,

Thank you so much for the update!!! I am so glad that Gothard’s victims do not continue to be persecuted by him. It’s bad enough that they were abused in most every way in the first place. I wanted to help, but had no way to, just trying to come out of IBLP abuse myself. Like all of us are.

Thank God that the judge didn’t accommodate Gothard’s continuation of abuse. I am so thankful & impressed that these girls have demonstrated such incredible courage & forebearance in the face of such wrong. May they have a chance to rest now. They’ve certainly earned it.
kevin January 20, 2019 Reply

" I am so thankful & impressed that these girls have demonstrated such incredible courage & forebearance in the face of such wrong. May they have a chance to rest now. They’ve certainly earned it."

Amen to that Nicole!
- Don Rubottom January 20, 2019 Reply
  
  It was a gamble to try to pay his lawyers. Glad the judge saw through it. He did violate his own "principle".
  - kevin February 5, 2019 Reply
    
    Yes, I believe that it was in part a gamble to pay his lawyers. But, I think that his primary motivation was to somehow try to "clear his name".Look at the announcements that were made and the claims that he and his supporters made when the women dropped the lawsuit. And that was with a voluntary withdrawal.Can you imagine the trumpeting that would have followed had the judge ruled that the lawsuit was frivolous and awarded attorney fees?
    
    Indeed, the judge saw through it.
    - rob war February 5, 2019
      
      My speculation guess is also that if Bill was successful that he was going to go after IBLP and demand to be put back at the helm because he could say that all these women were lying. That can't happen now either. Cracks about lawyer's fee made about these women also apply to Bill as well now. He is now responsible for them and doesn't have a million dollar ministry to cover it for him. He apparently doesn't realize that suing other will not bring his reputation back. It's too late for that.
Larne January 27, 2019 Reply

For those interested in the broader context of the “Me Too” movement in today’s church, CBN has done a thourogh job of reporting on a massive abuse case in Pennsylvania. While different in many regards than what’s on RG, the underlying practices, nuances and reactions to the abuse are the same. It also discuses plans that should be implemented to prevent abuse and support the victims. While dealing with mostly younger children the patterns were the same. The report is well worth the 20 or so minutes it takes to watch. I expected something completely different from CBN but instead saw 46 years relived in those 20 minutes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7fTAlQN_lLw&a=&feature=youtu.be
- Larne February 7, 2019 Reply
  
  Here is one more story in todays news:
  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/ungodly-abuse-lasting-torment-new-tribes-missionary-kids-n967191
Nicole Gardner February 12, 2019 Reply

I personally believe that all who made excuses so that both these perverts’ praying on girls/young women continued are too blinded to see the light of God’s holiness whereby which they may be saved.

With regard to both of these tragedies that New Tribes & the old guard of IBLP respectively committed: I wish that the doctrine of Original Sin, as well as the cure of it that every single person needs, was viewed in light of the rest of Scripture. Yet it has become a runaway horse.

(1) the concentration of focus on children as being more needful of conversion than any other demographic.
The conclusion was, because 2-&-3-footers are so needy for attention for the meeting of their immediate needs as well as to get themselves enough input for sensory growth & training in life skills, they therefore must be the most unregenerate of all. Sinful is the word substituted for this immaturity. In order religious-sise the natural growth order of God’s design, a bunch of non-sins got labeled as “sins” by Gothard & his ilk. All the more so as kids reached the pre-teen/teenage years, so that they’d still classify as needing what is essentially _*mission-work*_ still done on them. (Even though they’re past the _*utterly selfish diaper & bottle phase*_. Also at the New Tribes boarding schools; the kids were treated harshly on minor issues that were stressed as needing correction. While yet multiple pedophiles roamed the halls & bedrooms. All because a certain demographic was designated as _*needing discipled*_ by administration that took the non-Biblical adage of “all sin is the same” & applied this false agage to what isn’t even sin.

(2) the demographic-fixed views of both “mission field” & “missionary” needs to repent of it’s stereotyping. Instead, sin needs to be looked-at objectively, on a Biblical scale. The Law of Moses made crystal-clear that some sin IS worse than others types of sin. Romans chapter 8 speaks of the incompatibility between mere flesh & the behavioral standard as required by this Law: “For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:3,4) Verse five goes on to say that it is those who are according to the flesh who set their minds on things of the flesh. Who has set their mind on the flesh more:
(A) a young child?
Or,
(B) an experienced predator?
Needless to say, the very basis of telling anyone that salvation is needed in the first place is because of falling-short of Moses’ Law. This kind of mission is theologically incorrect when touted by a Bill Gothard-type because the fact that the redeemed are enabled to have fulfilled in ourselves the requirement of the Law was trashed by the likes of him. And the perverts & their cohorts at New Tribes.

My point:
Sin vs. righteousness need the objective value system awarded to them by The Golden Rule, The Ten Commandments, & the rest of Scripture. We are all sick of pedophiles straining out pretend gnats such as “an independent spirit” (simultaneous with winnowing-out of the “self-centered-ness of toddlers”—, go figure!!!!!) in order to make a living while indulging themselves by committing crimes. Why don’t we restore enough of a Christian world-view to the para-church “missions” that our churches support so that
(1) criminals & other low-lifes will no longer be enabled to pose as evangelists
And,
(B) return to Luke 3:7+10,11. We who group in following religious leading strive to have enough left after providing for ourselves so as to give. In keeping with this, this means not begrudging the development of little children (or any others!) to be able to become as such themselves. Striving to make it in this world, & encouraging instead of discouraging others in this, has a lot more to do with setting priorities aright than the non-repentant religious fanatics think. That’s why the unrepentant are so mean to children for needing sustainance & guidance unto doing for themselves, calling the stage-of-growth-of-childhood “sin.” It’s also the excuse of creepy adults who stayed infantile in all respects— except in developing their sin— to unload it on the very kids whose culpability is the abject opposite of such evil.

I’m hoping for a Bible study done on the sin of sexual abuse. It needs to do a thorough theological exegesis of a ton of connected doctrines, not just the ones I elude-to above. And it needs to be a team with a proven track-record of bringing instances of sexual abuse into the light.
- David Pigg February 13, 2019 Reply
  
  These points you make and questions you ask are made completely out of the "religious" context of the mindset of New Tribes and Gothardism and will be considered to be "rebellious".You have not been bludgeoned enough by their frontal attacks against the "infant sins" and Gothard's "supramoralism."Only God can bring resurrection life into religious depravity.When dishonesty prevails and remains in natural religion so that inner lusts continue behind the pious facade,hypocrisy stands,not to be challenged by me or anyone else.The sword of the spirit which you held,Nicole came by revelation and is whats coming to judge,and the fire which disconnected the "most Holy" end,{converting the"primitive cultures"] from the evil perverted means, leaves only wood,hay,stubble to turn afterward into ash.Its the victims that "bore the wounds" of the vicious that really cry out for Jesus' heart.The intricate weavings and tapestries of a child's heart;defenseless,vulnerable,naive,ripped apart.Now comes the afterward,when the bystanders {IBLP,} dare count the cost to their up to now indifference,and eternity.And what of Distant Tribes?The same.
David Pigg February 15, 2019 Reply

That there are degrees of sin,which you commented on is absolutely true.From the millstone statement of better have a millstone tied about the neck and thrown in the middle of the sea than to offend one of these "little ones",to the greater sin of the pharisees turning over Jesus to PilateIt does not mention in this passage the "sin" of the little ones,when Jesus addressed His followers about the millstone.Then:Who has set their mind on the flesh more?A.A young child?,or B.An experienced predator?Awesome thought,but to those wishing to escape detection underneath the false superstructure,the self survival of the perversion meant more."An independant spirit"."Winnowing out of the self centeredness of the toddlers".Their naiveness their vulnerability,their intricate tapestry of their personalities brutalized.By those oppressed by demons?Not "begrudging the development of little children or others".Yes.Come s "a little child."
B Badger June 2, 2019 Reply

Re my comment and Larne's reply on Nov 26 2018, it occurred to me that I also lack empathy to a significant degree. (Is this at least one reason that I fit in with IBLP to the degree that I did?)

Larne: your reply spoke to me in a reproving way in more that one area. I did believe that we cannot decide what what peoples' motives are merely by their actions, but I failed to act as though I did. A single action has a number of possible motivations, and more than one may influence at a time. No, it is not for me to speculate on the motives of those who left and those who stayed, and doubtless they varied.

I believe that you are right in putting friendships first in such a case (non-essential differences).

One of my problems is that I have not relied only on God but primarily on certain people and groups (abusive and controlling in at least some cases). I have sought for a personal utopia (perfect happiness and fulfillment), eg applying Bill's principles and whatever else, as well as a corporate utopia, eg a job with the Institute and whatever else. Our fallen sinful nature makes these ideals impossible, and God has a different goal in mind, as you wrote.

Boot camps are not designed to be easy and pleasant, but they are necessary for testing and training those who would serve in emergency situations. Think of two lengthier comments on the Facebook ATI Reunion page: one the perspective of a former ALERT cadet, e g the seemingly cruel Drill Instructor (DI), the other the perspective of the former DI. Everything he did was for a benevolent purpose. He was pained by the recruits' suffering, sometimes wishing that he could suffer with them, and one point he had to turn away to hide his weeping.

Thank you for fueling these comments.
Larne June 4, 2019 Reply

Referring to your boot camp comment, there is an old saying "when the going gets tough the tough get going." The purpose of boot camp to "separate" the men from the boys or women from the girls. That separation is not about removing but training and changing you into the man/woman you need to be as a warrior in service of one’s country. You are no longer a child. At the time it’s not fun, it’s tough, it’s hard, but in hindsight the lessons learn benefited us through out our lives.

Our spiritual walk is the same, the “fire of life” makes you into the person God wants us to be in conforming to His image, that process is call sanctification. We are to become Warriors for Christ, light in the darkness. The instructions are not found in a “Red Notebook” but in the Word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” Life should be a process of learning from our mistakes and from the experiences, trials and joys of that life.

In a couple of days June 6th, we celebrate the 75th anniversary of D-Day when 4,414 allied troops gave their young lives to save the world. Ten thousand more were wounded, out of the 156,000 that landed on the beaches that day. On that day I can only imagine that each one of those men who survived thanked their drill instructor for turning them from boy into men. Yet on that day those men became real MEN now tested by fire, true Warriors. Our lives are no different, the trial and fires of life including the days associated with Bill, the Institute (Campus Teams, IBYC, IBLP) or ATI are to test us and refine us to be the men and women God wants us to be in fulfilling the great commission of Jesus last words before ascending into Heaven, “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age”.” Matthew 28:18-20

We are to be Warriors for Christ, not for a man or an organization!
Michelle Lassiter February 11, 2023 Reply

I attended Gothard's seminar while in college. I remember that he set up every argument in such a tight way that it seemed self-evident that no reasonable person could end up with any other conclusion than the one he gave. But then I'd try to explain it to friends who hadn't put out the enormous price for the seminar, and the arguments fell apart. The strict conclusions he reached made no sense except when framed the way he framed them at that moment.
I believe all the women's claims. Unfortunately, they might have destroyed the organization more easily if they had taken him to court for not paying overtime.