Jean { It's a good thing Gothard has never (as far as I can tell!) listened to the music written today for concert bands and wind ensembles. I play with a local community band (percussion) and modern composers LOVE to use multiple time signatures in a piece--like 5/8, 7/8, etc. We are rehearsing a Christmas piece right now that uses popular Christmas tunes--but all in a minor key!! As I have said before, Gothard and his followers really know nothing about music, and if he presented his views to our director or any of the instrumentalists I play with, he would be laughed out of the room--if he was lucky! And don't get me started about the percussion that modern composers love to use--Gothard's head would explode if he went on YouTube and heard some of the compositions that are out there! } – Nov 23, 9:55 PM

Jean { I remember reading some story, told by Gothard, about approaching a car full of teens that were listening to loud jazz music...and I realized that there is practically no way Gothard would know the difference between jazz and rock n roll, and that given the time period he was talking about, the music was probably rock! I can't believe the teens really took him seriously, if couldn't tell the difference between the genres! } – Nov 23, 9:47 PM

rob war { Yes, I mean Kendra, my bad. What a horrible story. All I can think of is O M G. I'm sure they thought themselves as perfect, following perfecting Bill's teachings yet it ends in a murder or actually a double murder with the unborn baby. Hopefully that guy is sitting in jail for the rest of his life and now has to live with the consequences of his impulsive action. I do hope nothing like that will be repeated with any of the Duggars or Bates but has I've looked at their pictures (not the stupid gossip that surrounds them), I really wonder. If Kendra doesn't feels like she is the perfect wife, I think she ought to look at the messy houses her sister-in-laws (Jill and Jessa) have posted on their own on their social media and realize that she is doing better than them I'm sure. All I see is total incompetence there in that these girls were raised to stay home and keep the house and cook but can't seem to cook and clean and stay on task in the home department. They seem to have no shame yet Kendra feels like a failure. Something is wrong... } – Oct 29, 3:10 PM

JM { Do you mean "Kendra?" The girl who married Joseph is Kendra, not Kendal (but I make a number of typos and misappropriations myself - it's no big deal - I know who you meant). If I can add some here, I believe the issue of expectation plays a lot into these kinds of marriages. Two good friends of mine came from Gothardite families. They followed everything to the letter and got married. Less than two months after the wedding, he killed her and their unborn child. Bullet through the head. It shook most of my family and friends considerably. This was back in 2008. It is still very difficult to come to terms with it all, because the exact reasons, the motivations, the circumstances themselves, are all in question. No one really understands concretely what happened. What we do know is that they had some spat, she was gathering clothes from the closet, and he met her there with his gun. She was going to take a break from him. I believe he snapped, he panicked, and he reacted the only way he remembered - he grabbed his gun and took care of it. So yes. I believe expectations play... } – Oct 29, 11:38 AM

rob war { One has to wonder about the married Duggar children and their spouses. It is a pretty horrific that poor Kendal felt like she was a terrible wife the first year because she felt she didn't live up to the unrealistic expectations put upon her by all this rigid formula marriage rolls as taught by Bill and lived out by the Duggars. I sometimes wonder where this is all end for any of them. So a 19 year old girl with no life experience, raise in this nonsense marries into a famous family with cameras always rolling will probably feel terrible and inadequate. Of all the Duggar kids that have married so far, something just seemed very odd about Kendal and Joseph. Behind her pretty smile and his dead pan face, something just seemed very forced. I feel sorry for her and I do all of them. } – Oct 28, 8:40 PM

Melissa { Diakonia is actually used in Ephesians 4:12 in context to that list of gifts, energema in 1 Corinthians 12 list and charisma is used in Romans 12. But I hear you it's not clearly spelled out-- it is someone's angle on things. I don't know anything about Bill Gothard really I am only doing my own study about the redemptive gifts teaching and the gifts in the Scriptures and came upon your website and just wanted to share my own Greek word study. My heart goes out to anyone who has truly gone through spiritual abuse. } – Oct 02, 2:05 PM

Melissa { Hi, I've been doing my own study on redemptive gifts and spiritual gifts. I don't have anything to say about Bill Gothard because I'm not familiar with his ministry. I came upon this website and wanted to share my findings on the Greek words. I did actually find that 'charisma', was used in Romans 12, as you say here...and energema is clearly used in the 1 Corinthians 12:10, but also "diakonia" is used in connection with the Ephesians 4 list in verse 4:12. I know it's not super direct just I find it interesting. I think these studies on personalities can be helpful and fun...but if a teaching that isn't clearly spelled out in scripture is made too Paramount or foundational it can be unhealthy and maybe that is what has happened here. People have different angles and interpretations on things that can be helpful, but maybe we need to stick with the main and plain with what we make our focus. Just some thoughts. I'm still learning. } – Oct 02, 2:01 PM

susan barackman { unfortunately he is not the only teaching the legalistic patriarchal Christian way of life--his downfall has not stopped others from pushing that man is all, woman is only to serve her husband stuff. Biblical gender roles and the transformed wife are only 2 of many. The good thing that in this day and age people can write their own opinions at the risk of being called a sinner and going against god's perfect design, though both have been known to remove those types of comments or ban the writers entirely. Some of the things on Biblical gender roles borders on child abuse ( that a girl is and should be married early as she is still moldable by her husband and that age can be young teenager because that is how they did it in the bible) and on Transformed Wife a woman could be committing sin if she goes to college or has a career because it might prevent her from having children in her prime years of her life as her only god given role is to be wife and mother along with other such drivel. } – Sep 13, 5:20 PM

David { Bill Gothard's authority teaching is right out of hell. It creates a system -- a system of license to abuse. And those abused are told they must submit to such abuse. When authority knows that they cannot be questioned, and when those under it know it as well, you have a cult, and a system of the devil. This is not freedom in Christ. Indeed, if there were not a trace of sexual harassment or abuse; if Bill Gothard himself were a innocent as he claims, he still teaches "another gospel." Indeed, it is not possible where these horrible authoritarian systems exist, "in the name of God," for things to degrade into anything else but abuse. } – Apr 11, 1:57 PM

mike slaney { Not that this answer will help convince you, but yes. Head coverings were practiced in the OT and commanded by Paul In the NT ( ICor 11:15) BTY the word Covering is two Greek words, one is the natural and the over the is to put on or around. Both are used in these texts. Those who wish to justify the first only do the WORD a disservice. This passage and the rest to follow tells the believer What to do and why, the why is the most important and often overlooked. more could be said but ask the Spirit to take you further. } – Aug 07, 10:31 AM

JPM { See my post below if you please. I am interested in a study of this musically and professionally, trying to take teachers such as Gothard and David Cloud to task for what they have taught. I would be very interested in picking your brain (by way of expression only - no zombies here) on the matter. I am hoping to find some sources that would be good arguments for what we are saying and trying to say. } – Jul 17, 2:05 PM

Jean { Vale: Unlike you I have studied BOTH music history and music theory--college level classes. Some Gregorian chants are ALSO PENTATONIC (yes, and some used 7 and 8 note scales)--so, according to you, chant attracts demons!! And as I said, there are African Christians whose music has very strong beats and rhythms. As a matter of fact, I heard a musicologist at my university talk about the fact that Western music grew to emphasize harmomic complexity, while African music emphazised complex rhythms. As I mentioned above, you need to go on You Tube and look up the music used at the annual African martyrs' celebration--Christians who were executed by their rulers because they refused to submit to sexual immorality. Look, you are just plain WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! You have absorbed an argument by someone who had not studied music at all; they just picked up the term pentatonic, and hoping that there were no degreed musicians in the congregation, proceeded to preach as if he he really knew what he was talking about. He was totally ignorant, and any freshman music major in any music school you want to name could have spotted it in about 3 seconds. And if you... } – Jun 09, 12:36 AM

Angela Murphy { How about do your own forming of opinion by prayer and asking God ? This is what's wrong with the world. This person says it's untrue..and so u believe. There must be a balance. The book does not claim to be Fact. it's a book of study. Many of you will not get your healing because this person has turned you off to the truth. My friend was healed of scoliosis simply by prayer. There are things that are spiritual like it or not. That does not mean someone is demon possessed but they can be affected by spirits we live in a spirit realm. Have a childlike faith and go to your heavenly father in prayer to know the truth do not depend on what men say. No one is ever 100% accurate except for God. I was healed of migraines by receiving prayer I had them since I was in fourth grade. Can anybody explain that to me? The prayer was thank you Jesus that is all they said. Did I have self conflict did I have guilt yes I did. I don't really give a crap about the cause of it all I care is that I'm... } – Jul 07, 3:28 PM

Tom B. { My son walked away from his faith in God because of a abusive courting relationship. I wonder how many other casualties have been caused by this doctrine of men. } – Jun 29, 11:34 AM

Aubrey Haltom { Galatians 4 says: "They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them." This verse sums up the essence of a cult: 1. They "hook" you with a big smile and a warm affection, but the intent is not good: 2. They find a legalistic point on which to "exclude" you and make you feel no longer accepted, so that: 3. You will then be overly anxious to show affection and cooperation to them (read: loyalty). Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. You will know them by their fruits: There is no love in the above scenario. No joy. No peace. No longsuffering. No gentleness. No goodness, meekness, kindness, self control or faith. I feel saddened for the church of Jesus Christ because of IBYC and ATI. I feel sorry toward the thousands who were duped and harmed by this cult. If you are one, please believe me: "it wasn't you, it was them." But now we retain their sins in the name of Jesus Christ. This we do, not for ourselves, but for the Kingdom of Heaven; that no more harm will come to the Flock of... } – Jun 17, 11:06 AM

Barbara Clingwald { Joy, I am glad you took the time to give this thoughtful account of your experience with IBYC. It was good to catch up with you two at the service for Sandi, very happy that your relationship with our Savior has grown and you are a trophy of his grace! } – Jun 11, 1:58 PM

B Badger { Re my comment and Larne's reply on Nov 26 2018, it occurred to me that I also lack empathy to a significant degree. (Is this at least one reason that I fit in with IBLP to the degree that I did?) Larne: your reply spoke to me in a reproving way in more that one area. I did believe that we cannot decide what what peoples' motives are merely by their actions, but I failed to act as though I did. A single action has a number of possible motivations, and more than one may influence at a time. No, it is not for me to speculate on the motives of those who left and those who stayed, and doubtless they varied. I believe that you are right in putting friendships first in such a case (non-essential differences). One of my problems is that I have not relied only on God but primarily on certain people and groups (abusive and controlling in at least some cases). I have sought for a personal utopia (perfect happiness and fulfillment), eg applying Bill's principles and whatever else, as well as a corporate utopia, eg a job with the Institute and whatever else. Our... } – Jun 02, 9:20 PM

Willow { Thank you for creating this site. It’s helpful to know I’m not alone. I hope my story will encourage others. Our family attended the ATIA seminars in the mid 90s when we began homeschooling. I’m now a 41 year old woman. Never been married. At age 17 my mom told me flat out that I was NOT going to secular college. An older cousin had gone to college and ended up pregnant. I was allowed to apprentice and learn the skill of piano tuning and go to a Bible College where I did very well academically. It was not a specific “career choice” but felt like something to do until a young man decided to court me- which never happened. I was awkward around guys, overly serious, and afraid of dating (and perceived it as worldly and inferior). After my first semester (even at this very conservative school), I ditched the ankle-length calico (yes- calico) dresses for normal clothing, cut my waist-length hair up to my shoulders, and got my ears pierced. I had a couple of very eligible guys interested in me but I flatly told one of them “I don’t date.” It didn’t take long for word to... } – Apr 27, 1:12 PM

Girl of Grace { Mrs. Rae, I don't know if you will ever read this, but I want you to know that no matter what you have done, GOD HAS FORGIVEN YOU and you will be accepted into the Kingdom of God. One of my favorite Bible verses is 1 John 3:20: "FOR GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS AND KNOWS ALL THINGS." He knows your heart, Ma'am, and He forgives you. Also, Romans 8:1 says, "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I pray these verses may be of comfort to you. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. } – Mar 04, 10:20 PM

Anthony E. { That's a heartfelt message. Thanks for this Dr. Orrison. Christians have the best remedy for any grievances stealing our happiness. I'm talking about "prayer." Take it to God first before anyone else. Enough of the complaints. } – Apr 14, 7:40 PM

Jane Wiens { When we were young my dad would have us attend these Bill Gothard seminars. Now that I am a therapist and am working with women who have been sexually abused I was searching and found, "How “Counseling Sexual Abuse” Blames and Shames Survivors." This is the most unprofessional, most damaging, uneducated, purposeless piece of garbage I have ever read. The problem with so called "biblical scholars" is they try to fix the broken foot when actually the person is supposed to go to the emergency room where they will get the appropriate help from a medical Dr. trained in that field. Same with trying to cousnel with solely understanding the bible. You can't use only the bible to mend and heal something that is clinical. Why do you think they have mental health centers? Why do you think there are trained therapists? Yes, many do involve the spritual componenets in therapy, but a bible scholar has no business drawing up a counsling protocol without training in a graduate level mental health curriculum. This article is beyond neive and yes, I am a Christian and brought up in a conservative religious abusive family where my dad justified sexual abuse using biblical... } – Apr 03, 12:17 PM

Nicole Gardner { Gothard’s defense was pretty opaque if they never planned to use these ridiculously dangerous rules to try to excuse their client: “When he was rubbing girls’ legs up to their knees with his feet he was just checking to make sure they only had slips on underneath their blue skirts.” “When he was adjusting their blouses & flipping their hair to the back or else to the front, he was just looking for a chemise strap that might be lurking as proof that they had donned uniforms over their sleepwear.” Because, you know, if a woman isn’t showing too much that’s actually observable, you gotta go ruffle-up the clad parts of her body in order to uncover any immodesty!!! What a hard job Gothard had there at the training centers. } – Feb 27, 1:16 PM

JM { The author of that article did not really listen to what that college representative said. The words "if they can" and "the closets are right by the doors" were ignored. PCC's policy has always been safety first. Period. I am a graduate. I experienced all of this in the early part of the 2000's. So saying they had faced pushback is not accurate. It's also not accurate to say they had the same rule. If you saw those closets, you would see why this is suggested. In fact, there are no closets! The rack where clothes are stored are right by the room doors with no division between room and closet. It is a simple matter of reach and throw. A little accuracy would go a long way here. This policy is nothing like PCC's (which is a suggestion, and it does make a difference how it is worded). To my knowledge, no young lady has ever faced disciplinary measures for inappropriate attire during a fire drill, and I did see many in sleep pants during my days there. } – Feb 25, 11:17 AM

kevin { PE, That makes me sick to my stomach. That is probably illegal, and regardless, an extreme invasion of privacy. } – Feb 23, 1:59 AM

PEvansWells { While working at Oak Brook in 1994, I had confided in some of my housemates that I thought a certain guy was cute. This guy was more straightlaced than myself and wouldn’t be interested in me, but I liked him nonetheless. Within a day of me sharing this with my “friends”, I was called to Mr. Gothard’s office and questioned about the matter. So much for friends! I met a boy at an ITC counseling seminar in 1993 and we exchanged addresses. He wrote me after I went home, and continued to write while I was working in Oak Brook later that year. My letters were opened and read before they were given to me. } – Feb 16, 6:42 AM