Seen “Shiny Happy People?”

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Seen “Shiny Happy People?”

Seen “Shiny Happy People?”

31 May 2023, 14:00

Welcome to Recovering Grace!

We want to extend a warm welcome to all the visitors who have come to our website due to the release of the documentary “Shiny Happy People” on Amazon Prime. While we want to clarify that Recovering Grace did not produce this documentary, we understand that it may generate increased interest in Bill Gothard, the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), and the Advanced Training Institute (ATI).

Here at Recovering Grace, we haven’t been actively updating our content for a few years now. However, we recognize that the documentary will likely spark curiosity and a desire for more information. We want to do what we can to help you navigate and understand the topics related to Bill Gothard, IBLP, and ATI.

To begin your journey, we recommend visiting the following pages on our website:

A Call for Discernment: This page provides a fairly comprehensive overview of the major errors in Bill Gothard’s theology. It highlights several theological concerns associated with his teachings and sheds light on the issues surrounding his beliefs. You can access the page here.

The Gothard Files: From 2012-2014, we released a series of articles detailing how Bill Gothard exhibited a 40-year pattern of moral failure, abuse of spiritual authority, and mishandling of Scripture, and was therefore disqualified from Christian ministry. This resource offers an in-depth exploration of these issues and provides valuable insights into the experiences of individuals affected by Gothard and his organization. Visit the collection here.

Top 25: In the years that Recovering Grace was active, certain articles became very popular with our readers. The following page provides a list of 25 such articles. Explore them here.

We hope that these resources will assist you in gaining a deeper understanding of Bill Gothard, IBLP, and ATI. While our website may not be actively updated, we believe the articles and information we have gathered over the years are valuable resources for those seeking insight and clarification. Thank you for visiting Recovering Grace.

The RG Leadership Team

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

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276 Comments

kevin May 31, 2023 Reply

I'm really looking forward to this docuseries.

For those who are not members of Amazon Prime, apparently you can join it for 30 days for free.

Also, glad to see the RG Leadership Team showing some activity. I do believe that this could cause a lot of traffic to the website and there is so much info here for anyone who wants to go deep on Gothard/IBLP.
- Moderator June 2, 2023 Reply
  
  Hi Kevin,
  
  Yes, we've been rather dormant for a while, but we do believe this is an important moment in the public telling of the truth about Bill Gothard and IBLP.
  - Allison Ashton June 9, 2023 Reply
    
    Are you sure about every allegations? Isabel who worked for the ISBC for 20+ years said it wasn't Bill, but others who took advantage of an unreliable source. That is what is sad. She still keeps up with most of them and just this past week went out to their training center at Sandy Lake here in Texas. Bill is 89, she said, and does a lot of writing. It is all very sad!!!
    - Julie Rideeoutte June 10, 2023
      
      So we are going with victim blaming basically? The allegations were not unreliable sources (the statute of limitations ran out). I was in this cult unfortunately and I have seen first hand what damage Gothard did.
      Of course people within IBLP have taken advantage (have you seen those tax returns?) 90 million dollars or so in assets. Money is definitely the root of all evil especially with cults (David Koresh and Warren Jeffs being a few examples). It is sad that people still believe that he was innocent of the allegations when he wasn't. Lets use Alyssa Wakefield as an example, forced into an arranged marriage to a man who was her senior by almost 8 years, she was groomed from a young age by not only her father but also Bill Gothard. She even went to her dad after 17 years of marriage and told him she was sick and she was dying. Her dad brushed her off and told her that she was entering "menopause" (she was barely 35). Or another Emily E Anderson, who found this website and put her story on here, the next day she received a call from Bill himself ordering her to take it down as it was detrimental to his ministry. I applaud both for having the courage to speak out and find freedom as I have and others like me who have been victimized by IBLP and it's teachings.
    - Only Me June 12, 2023
      
      What is ISBC?
    - kevin June 12, 2023
      
      Hi Allison.
      
      You said:
      
      "Are you sure about every allegations? Isabel who worked for the ISBC for 20+ years said it wasn't Bill, but others who took advantage of an unreliable source. That is what is sad."
      
      Are you aware that over 34 women have come forward with alegations against Bill Gothard? Many on this site, many involved in the lawsuit and some involved in the recent docuseries.
      
      What you are describing is an off handed anecdote from a person who claims that it wasn't Bill but others. Have you listened to the women who spoke in the docuseries? Have you read the many testimonies that the women gave in the lawsuit? Have you listened to the many others who have shared their stories?
      
      I suspect that you will use your one hearsay anecdote example to believe what you want to believe, but the truth is there for anyone who really wants to know the truth. There are many stories here on RG. I truly hope that you read them. I hope that you hear the women with an open mind. Please hear them.
    - Elizabeth H. June 19, 2023
      
      I'm absolutely sure about what *I* experienced and witnessed. I am so tired of the questioning of what *has been established*. My life has been turned upside down and is currently in utter ruin thanks to being groomed for abuse by this predator, and it is harmful to those of us STILL trying to pick up the pieces after MANY years of horrific fallout from what Gothard inflicted on us. Please, if you aren't "sure" - please take note of those of us who *are* and be careful when talking about how "sad" it is that so much accusing is going on.... Trust me - justice has NOT been served... Not even close.
    - Rachael B. June 22, 2023
      
      Are you serious? The victim blaming needs to stop. Any female that close to Bill is either fully brain washed or brain dead. I was raised in this cult and abused by my father & brothers. Bill Gothard thought them how and made them believe they would get away with it through the power of God. To this day my mother is still with my dad and can barely understand the world around her, she was barely functional as if she had some kind of brain damage much like I suspect the women you spoke with.
kevin June 1, 2023 Reply

One concern that I have is that many of the people who most need to watch this docuseries will not watch it. I’ll relay an actual conversation.

Former Homeschool dad #1: Are you going to watch the Duggar/IBLP/Gothard docuseries coming out?

Former Homeschool dad #2: Where is it playing?

Former homeschool dad #1: On Amazon Prime

Former homeschool dad #2: What’s Amazon Prime?

FHD #1: You download the app on your smart TV. Or your tablet. You can get a free 30-day trial.

FHD #2: What’s a smart TV? What’s a tablet? What’s an app?

Former Homeschool dad #1 then remembers that the multimedia set up for most homeschool families, especially the ATI/former ATI variety, consists of a circa 1987 TV, with one input. The only input would typically be for a VHS player, on which pirated videos of !9 Kids and Counting would occasionally be played. The player might also see use from time to time with a Doug Phillips history special or a David Pearl talk.

So, here is my suggestion. If you happen to be a family whose circle is filled with the type of families which I describe above, perhaps you can organize a little watching party. You can even be a little sneaky and tell them that it’s a Duggar reunion special of sorts. Lol. No, no, I’m kidding. Be honest.
- rob war June 1, 2023 Reply
  
  Well, that would be quite the surprise party now wouldn't it. Jill will be coming out in January with her book, "Counting the Cost" and the pre-orders are already making it a best seller. Unless the family is basically like the Amish, I really can't imagine anyone that doesn't know about or use Amazon. Wow.
- JM June 5, 2023 Reply
  
  Well, you're not necessarily wrong, but the tone of this message sounds incredibly harsh and more than a little slanderous.
  
  I'm surprised the moderators let things like this fly.
  
  We can keep it civil on these pages. Please. Let's do.
  - kevin June 5, 2023 Reply
    
    Interesting comment.
    
    When the Gothardites suggest that the victims are liars, disgruntled former students, and that if they did not "cry out", that it means that it was consensual and not sexual abuse, not once have you commented that said Gothardites were being harsh. Yet, you find this harsh?
    - JM June 26, 2023
      
      I think I would say both are harsh. Again. Be careful how you categorize me. I'm not a Gothardite. But in order to be fair, we have to be fair to everyone. Fairness doesn't extend just to those we like or think are right.
      
      Your chain of comments about the homeschool parents more than implies that such people are ignorant and/or don't care about reality. That may be true in many instances, but it is not true in mine. It is therefore a stereotype. I advise you to be careful in the use of such things, lest you become one who simply belittles such people rather than try to help them.
    - kevin June 26, 2023
      
      JM.
      
      As I mentioned, our family homeschooled. We did so for over 20 years.
      
      In my homeschool circles, we are secure enough in our own skin such that making fun of how our community is often out of touch with modern media and apps is well received. Sorry, if you are not equally secure in this way. Not everyone appreciates humour. I have good friend who is autistic and it is very hard for him to understand humour. So, I get it that not all see such things as humorous.
      
      Are you not aware that there are some in the ultra protective homeschool community who would not know how to watch Amazon Prime? I'm not saying that they could not figure it out if they wanted to. Of course they could. I know some who not only don't have TVs, but they also will not allow computers in the home.
    - JM July 14, 2023
      
      Well I gotta take issue with the seeming take on "ultra conservative homeschooling."
      
      You're not the only one who was homeschooled or is actively homeschooling. That's me too. And I am conservative, even at times markedly so.
      
      The problem is there just isn't some huge umbrella that is homeschooling. It isn't all the same. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who homeschool for non-religious reasons, and it is not new.
      
      Flashback to 2005 and the movie Elektra for an example. Yeah. A lackluster early-days Marvel sequel to DareDevil starring Jennifer Garner. In that movie, the main focus was a teenage girl who was supposedly "the treasure." She and her father were on the run, and they were proud to call themselves homeschoolers.
      
      That was not a religious family. They weren't doing it for religious reasons. The materials they were using were no doubt secular.
      
      That wouldn't appear in media at all if it were not happening. Turns out, after doing research in college, secular homeschooling is a fairly big thing. That was back in 2005.
      
      Furthermore, this notion of homeschooling being somehow anti-technology or not keeping up with the times is indeed foreign to me. That was not my experience, nor was it the experience of many families I ran with growing up. BTW, many of those families were proud Gothardites.
      
      Homeschooling often requires the use of technology, in the case of Abeka Streaming Video, or Bob Jones's Satellite Academy. It wouldn't be prudent for a family to take such a stance.
      
      So no. I do not find this humorous. I find it counterproductive. It comes across to me as "look at these stupid homeschoolers. They don't know what Amazon Prime is."
      
      And you're basing that off anecdote, personal experience. This kind of thing just doesn't need to take place here. This site is devoted to seeking and exposing truth. We can't do that if we start to ridicule. This is me insisting on taking the high road. If I need appeal to the editors and moderators, I will. I reiterate what I stated earlier. I don't believe this kind of ridicule belongs here. It is counterproductive.
  - Jill June 10, 2023 Reply
    
    There is absolutely NOTHING harsh about his statement. He’s merely making a suggestion on how to help others be able to view the documentary. Your defensiveness is interesting.
    - JM June 26, 2023
      
      You need to take a closer look and think outside your box. He is nearly outright ridiculing homeschool parents as ignorant. That is not the case with me or my family. It is indeed harsh
    - kevin June 26, 2023
      
      I'm a homeschool dad JM. Not calling them(us) ignorant, but I do find it humorous how some homeschool families really don't know about smart TVs and such. Many truly don't. Most now do, but there are still many who put up barriers to such things.
      
      We(homeschool families) often live lives that are not up on the latest in social media, apps and so forth. There is often the intention to avoid such things as worldly. I can say with certainty that Gothard advocated avoiding such things. I assure you that many Gothard families would not know how to watch Amazon Prime. Exposure to what they would call "wordly" influences varies widely within the homeschool community.
  - rob war July 14, 2023 Reply
    
    https://aleteia.org/2023/06/24/a-homeschooling-mom-responds-to-shiny-happy-people/
    
    This was a review from a homeschooling mother's perspective. She points out after watching Shiny Happy People that this was about the very deficient program of ATI. I would think any concerned homeschooling parents would be condemning bad programs like ATI that even now IBLP has dropped and reduced to a Bible study. This dedicated homeschooling mom can see the difference between what is presented in this docuseries and homeschooling in general.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023
      
      That Aleteia article was pretty good. The author explained (and complained) that SHP was a smear of homeschooling which homeschooling parents must answer.
      
      From Aleteia: ”Homeschoolers typically score 15-30% higher than public school students on standardized tests." Does that superior figure include testing of ATI students? Our author doesn't compare test results among homeschooling curriculums.
      
      As Maverick said, “it’s not the plane, it’s the pilot.” Likewise, it’s not the curriculum, it’s the student. My youngest ATI student completes his master’s degree this summer and probably his doctorate next year.
Jennifer Smith June 1, 2023 Reply

I salute anyone who was any part of bringing this valuable docuseries to completion. This organization and patriarchal alpha male construct is a source of destruction for human kind. Pure evil.
Barb June 2, 2023 Reply

I watched it all. So many regrets as a parent of 7. We did not homeschool nor totally but into the unbiblical teaching, thankfully because my husband and I had some solid Bible teaching…apart from the church/pastor we were working with. Obviously we were not mature or obedient to God. One of our daughters experienced rape and was summarily blamed, just like I heard in this exposé. So much fallout in our family. We can’t undo the mistakes, but being repentant vs defensive, we have moved on, seeking to know Christ and make HIM known. I could write a book.
- Mimi June 6, 2023 Reply
  
  I homeschool my four in the 1990’s and 2000’s. I went to many homeschool conventions where Gothard materials were sold. I even went to one of their workshops to find out about it. I am so grateful our family didn’t go this route. Me being very insecure and unsure about homeschooling in the first place, had my husband been on board, we might have gotten involved, thinking it was the only way to keep my kids on the straight and narrow. Despite everything I did to protect my children, they needed to find Christ on their own, we don’t micromanage our children’s walks with the Lord. Trusting God plays a big part. I still believe I todays world, homeschool is a great choice, as long one does it in grace, not legalism. That is where I had failure, understanding the grace of God. This is where I disagree with the documentary, they really painted with a broad brush when it came to homeschooling.
Deb J June 2, 2023 Reply

I am on Ep 3 and good grief what a bunch of completely foul men. How do they live with themselves? I also watched 2 Hillsong docs recently and just wow. The constant grotesque religious rhetoric and control makes me feel like maybe I should pour bleach in my ears to wash them out🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
- Luana N June 4, 2023 Reply
  
  Sadly these pathetic humans live with themselves very comfortably in complete happiness and with certainty that they are doing the correct,holy and noble thing.
- Unkown June 11, 2023 Reply
  
  Yes it's horrible the only truth you can stand on is the Bible! The Bible read by your own self because some twist verses into their own preferences and standards
Susan Barackman June 2, 2023 Reply

My deepest heartfelt gratitude to what you at Recovering Grace have done over these past years. You showed courage and fortitude to have a safe place where victims could come tell their stories.

Even though it took high profile people like the Duggar daughters to really rip open the curtain, all the preceding stories here give credence to the harmful teachings of IBLP and other patriarchal legalistic religious teachings that still exist and are continuing to harm women...and men...today.

I found your site 12 years ago when I had hip surgery and was told to rest a lot. I devoured each story as God put His love and acceptance into my heart that being different was not a bad thing. That He had made me "me".

The stories (including you having published my story about my love for horses and cats, etc) led me to more research about those few scriptures (obey, submit, be quiet) that were the impetus behind so much abuse towards women in the church. This has all helped me tremendously to deconstruct all the erroneous teachings I had learned over the years.

Ironically, a site may be needed for those who are now free of IBLP, who now have a voice, to have a safe place to share because patriarchy, in all its forms from stringent to soft complementarianism, is implanted deeply in the church. And it will not go without a fight. ---- Women are still being denied a voice and any mention that God can call women to preach or pastor will open one up to all sorts of criticism and name calling from other christians.
Lori June 2, 2023 Reply

The documentary was extremely well done but how horrific the stories. I live near Hinsdale and LaGrange and it was very disturbing that he still lives in the area, the Iblp still has a presence and worst of all Gothard has a new ministry. Your site is so important right now and I’m glad you are here.
Kale Benton June 2, 2023 Reply

Shiny Happy People is amazing!!! I was raised in this horrible organization and this documentary is everything I’ve wanted to say for so many years. I was luckily able to get out by literally going to blows with my father and running away from home. It destroyed my family and my life. This was so rewarding to see the truth exposed.
- Unknown June 11, 2023 Reply
  
  I think a lot of Baptist go by these teachings especially the independent fundamental Baptist Church in Walls, MS. They sweep things under the rug. Threaten members during various circumstances. Think they are the Authority over your child, and is more concerned with preaching preferences, standards, and politics.
Angel June 2, 2023 Reply

Immediately watched the Amazon series. Congratulations to all the victims who now have their voices heard (whether they spoke on camera or not) and the crimes against them revealed. Know that over one billion people the world over will see the series and now know the truth about this sickening cult. Cults crop up for one reason only-because a bunch of insecure men are afraid of women. Men know that women hold all the power to men’s lives. A man doesn’t have a future without a woman wanting to have their child. All religions are cults created because men are frightened that women have this power over them. Now is the time for the victims to sue Bill Hayes, Sean Overbeeke, TLC and Discovery for fashioning 235 episodes of pure lies to condone and promote this cult of sexual and physical abuse.
- Kale Benton June 25, 2023 Reply
  
  While I don’t necessarily agree that all are cults I do appreciate the compassion of your message. Suing the networks is an interesting idea see as they did promote and then cover this stuff up.
Jeanne June 2, 2023 Reply

My heart breaks for all the people damaged by that false teaching. Families have been destroyed. Relationships have been broken beyond restoration. Many others bear the emotional scars that only God can heal. My prayer is that there will be true repentance in the church for allowing that poison to dominate for too long.

I have been reading RG since 2014. I am grieved that people like my parents swallowed his poison when they should have been more discerning of what they were listening to. Thank you RG for exposing this deception.
E.E. Jacks June 3, 2023 Reply

Well done doc.
I was part of IBLP ATI Character First all the fun stuff 94’-21
Worked at HQ and Verity as staff for a bit as well. Child labor was something utilized all of the time.
Predatory orgs 100% as the doc. brings up.
Sleep deprivation was used and you can see the exhaustion in a lot of the children: showcased as docile behavior. The Cabbage Patch dolls haha! That was a blast from the past…
Stay safe everyone. Cults are never one and done.
-Jacks
- Tori June 16, 2023 Reply
  
  Could you point out specifics as that was not AT ALL my takeaway. Several of my siblings and nieces chose to homeschool and I didn't take one thing as being about them or all home schoolers. I took it as home schoolers involved in ATI.
  
  There was one comment that possibly could have been misconstrued, something about "now you know why I'm weird" (meaning different) and that she could "spot them a mile away." She referenced that within the context of them being ATI home schoolers.
  - Rachael B. June 22, 2023 Reply
    
    ATI broke children down into a shell, making them venerable and naïve. We could be spot a mile away because we have(had) a twisted view on the world that was un-logical. Released into society as teens or young adults with little to no concept of how to function in life. Low self esteem from years of abuse, low education, strange beliefs, deep rooted fears.
    
    It made us all very, very weird and yes, we can spot each other a mile away. Like aliens in a fake skin pretending to be human.
    - Josh June 26, 2023
      
      Exactly, the whole thing was run and perpetuated by fearful, insecure men that wanted to exert total control over their families. Now, that mentality is bleeding into our politics as men like Huckabee, Pence, Jordan, Bill Lee and the rest of the 'new GOP' try to take us back to the stone age. I love that they tied ATI to Teenpact and the political machine in the documentary. Me and my siblings went through all that, luckily it did not stick, but you can definitely see the influence it is having on our national politics today.
rob war June 3, 2023 Reply

Jim Bob and Michelle's response to this series couldn't be more pathetic. After forcing all their children to be on TV, filming their marriages and their daughters and daughters-in-laws giving birth, what do they expect? Of course, their children are going to come out publicly about their family problems. They have no one to blame but themselves. I read somewhere that they went to Bill himself about going on TV in the beginning. Of course, a selfish man like Bill is only going to view this as a giant commercial for his ideas and teachings and himself. No concern whatsoever of any long-term consequences for all the Duggar children on being raised on TV and in the public eye. They have reaped what they have sown. I remember Bill in the basic seminar going against TV and TV watching. When drawing his stick figures illustrating Psalm 1, there was a big cheer when he drew a TV for "sitting at the feet of scoffers". I wonder how many of those that gave this big cheer ended up watching the Duggars later on. How sick is it that there was an uptick for the shows that featured the Duggar girls and daughters-in-laws twisted around in pain while giving birth, all to give more money for Jim Bob. Can this get any sicker? And now Jim Bob and Michelle want to act like they are now horrified that their children have come out publicly about their "problems"? They deserve stupid idiots of the year award.
Olivia June 3, 2023 Reply

What happens in Gothard teaching is wrong, but the documentary painted all conservative Christian homeschoolers is so wrong. I’m a conservative Christian who was homeschooled, along with my three older siblings, and we all got college educations. My three older siblings (including my sister) completed graduate school. My parents chose to homeschool us, and my mom wished she had been homeschooled. I’m sorry for all the pain and abuse that the people, especially women, have experienced in this cult (I don’t even want to call it Christian) but equating all people who desire to homeschool and have conservative values is as wrong as what Bill Gothard did. You are basically brainwashing your viewers to believe that conservative homeschooled Christians are equivalent to members of Gothard’s cult.
- Susan June 3, 2023 Reply
  
  i was thinking that also as i watch the documentary---not all christians who homeschool, wear modest clothing or respect their husbands or have large families are evil teachings.
  
  On the other hand those christians who are childless by choice, on equal standing with their husbands, women who have a career outside the home and have a call on their life to preach/pastor have been treated as pariahs, disobedient, of the devil by the people this doc is about.
  
  the real evil needs to be uncovered and fixed by teaching new converts about salvation relationship with Christ and learning to hear His voice and follow his leading, not Gothard dogma strangers on FB.
- David S. Knecht Sr. June 3, 2023 Reply
  
  Indeed. Bill Gothard is no threat to the Left, but libertarian populism scares them, especially conservative homeschooling. Homeschooling threatens the powers that be, so Amazon had to paint with a broad brush to smear homeschooling.
  
  What if well-dressed young anarcho-capitalists overturn tables in the courts of power? Guerrillas in business suits are often homeschooled.
  - Lena June 15, 2023 Reply
    
    Well, libertarians are insurrectionsists and resort to violence at the end of the day. We should fear their rise in power.
    
    Homeschooling is hardly a threat to "powers that be". Only someone still bent on gothard-esque ideals would believe this. Homeschooling is a very useful tool for children with special needs, bullying issues, and beyond. The fact you describe homeschoolers in business suits as guerrillas only further amplifies the war mentality that is often and literally beaten into children born into Christian families. Hate to break it to ya, no one cares if someone was homeschooled. Get a job, work, die. Amazon does great business off homeschool folks! They dont give a spit lol.
    
    Its always the people so stuck on homeschooling that look to play the victim at every turn. You wouldnt be simping for Muslim homeschoolers, frankly. Homeschool die hards are just s*xually outlandish fiends obsessed with their own image and gratification.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. June 18, 2023
      
      May we have an example of a violent libertarian? perhaps a snarling Ron Paul or Murray Rothbard, with their bloody bayonets? But libertarians are better known for discrediting power than for accumulating it.
      
      If Gothard ideals are vices instead of virtues, which Gothard principles should we renounce? authority? design? freedom? ownership? responsibility? success? suffering?
      
      Indeed, giving a spit about homeschooling is the mystery. Their video project proves that Amazon gives a spit. What made it worth their effort and expense? George Soros? Klaus Schwab?
      
      Also, can anyone direct us to Muslim homeschoolers? The Muslims on my block attend caesar’s grim institutions. Muslims need Christ, too.
      
      Meanwhile, if we homeschoolers are sexually outlandish fiends, how shall we improve? through better attendance at drag queen story hour? Is that an upgrade?
    - JM June 26, 2023
      
      Libertarianism is THE founding principle upon which this country was built. It's the idea of small government and a large individual. The government gets out of our lives as much as it can. We get to choose where we live, what we do, where we go to entertain ourselves, and how we want to raise our children.
      
      It is not insurrection at all. Libertarians want what everybody wants - the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness without any interference by anyone including the government.
      
      Of course, there is a distinct difference between Libertarianism and the Libertarian party. They are not exactly one and the same. Many of our best politicians claim to be Libertarian, but are not members of that party. Libertarianism is an ideology first.
  - Rebecca August 9, 2023 Reply
    
    it was very clear to me in this documentary that they were not smearing all homeschooling, but were critical of ATI. I have nothing to do with any home, schooling, personally, so I am a neutral observer, and it was crystal clear to me that the Target of the documentary was a Gothard world, not other types of homeschooling.
- Cindy Brunson June 3, 2023 Reply
  
  I watched all of the documentary in one sitting last
  night. It was very well done and wasn’t about ALL homeschoolers.
  It exposed Bill Gothard, IBLP, ATI, Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh Duggar
  as liars, abusers and hypocritical “conservative, christian “ people. It
  is about one particular segment of the homeschooling population. I
  believe when people who call themselves conservative Christian home-
  schoolers talk negatively about the documentary it takes attention
  away from the whole point. Children, teens and even young adults have
  experienced abuse (some of it horrific) and that’s what needs to be addressed.
  This went on for decades and it’s way past time that the whole truth was told.
  - rob war June 3, 2023 Reply
    
    I have watched the first episode and I absolutely agree 100% with what you just said here. The firsthand stories of abuse along with the screen shots of the ATI wisdom books is just horrific. This is not about homeschooling in general, nor is it about being a conservative. This is about the perverted ideas of one sick man that pretended to speak for God.
- Maggie June 4, 2023 Reply
  
  Honestly, I thought they presented people in a pretty positive light. Many, probably most, of the people interviewed are VERY conservative Christians--including Jill Duggar Dilard, the Holt couple, etc.
  
  This wasn't a documentary about homeschooling. It wasn't a documentary about religion. It was a documentary about IBLP (Gothard) and the Duggars--with some themes of child labor, the willingness to look the other way when money is involved, etc.
  
  I don't see why anyone would be "brainwashed" by this. I know lots of homeschooling families, most of whom are Christian conservatives, and I don't think this shed a bad light on them at all. I also was very impressed by the pastor/author--showing Christianity in a very, very positive way.
  
  And frankly, there is NOTHING the producers of the series included that is even close to "as wrong as what Bill Gothard did."
- Jane June 4, 2023 Reply
  
  👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
- Luana N June 4, 2023 Reply
  
  This isn't Olivia Plath commenting is it? All kidding aside you seem to be leaving out the element of choice and agency. And I understand that your family seems like the exception. But here are some questions that I have: Do all of the women who home school their children want to do so or is someone telling them that they have to do so as their "God given duty" in the culture wars? Do all of these home schooled children (I know there are exceptions) actually get a complete education? Even if their family is extremely large and their so called "teacher" is busy with pregnancy symptoms and a toddler? What about children with special education or behavioral needs? How does home school work for them? Most people in the secular world understand the idea that nothing is completely true for everyone all of the time. When raised with freedom and choice it is easy to make the distinction of some not all and then the person does not have to take the time to bring up the "not everyone" argument all of the time.
  - Jeanne June 5, 2023 Reply
    
    Luana, very good question about special needs students. I homeschool 3 of my five children. My oldest is in college now. I have made plenty of mistakes on my curriculum choices, but I never chose ATI. I have a special needs adult child, and I decided that I didn't have the qualifications to give her the help she needed. We put her in public school, and she was blessed with amazing teachers who had a passion for special needs students. Our school district has done a great job of helping her and guiding me on how to relate to her. If I had to do it over again, I would most likely decide to put her in public school. As with all students, there is not a one size fits all. Parents need to make the best educational decisions that fit the needs of their children. Homeschool might not work for their family, and that is OK.
- Greg June 8, 2023 Reply
  
  Very well said Olivia
- Cricket Henley June 22, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank you for saying this, Olivia! I agree. I homeschooled both of my kids, they both went on to college and are successful adults now with their own children. I absolutely felt the same way -- the whole Gothard stuff was terrible, but this is not a representation of ALL homeschooling experiences and situations. I also wish the producers would have done an episode on people who left the Gothard camp but have still gone on to love Christ. I have some friends in that boat and to paint a picture that everyone left the faith is also wrong.
- TVD July 17, 2023 Reply
  
  I stumbled upon this documentary by happenstance and decided to watch. I am not religious in the least, and I don't know enough about homeschooling (or conservative Christians, for that matter) to formulate an opinion one way or the other. I had no idea who Bill Gothard was until I watched this documentary. Having said that, I didn't get the impression that conservative homeschoolers are wrong whatsoever. The focus was specifically on Bill Gothard's predatory behavior and the damaging,far-reaching effects of IBLP and ATI.
  
  The people who were showcased (the Duggars, for example) in the documentary were people who perpetuated his teachings;not conservative Christians collectively. Was it left-leaning? Absolutely, but you will be hard pressed to find an investigative documentary that is 100% unbiased. It takes a whole lot more than a single documentary to brainwash people. That's like thinking every preacher is a murderous psychopath because you watched a Jim Jones documentary.
Leah June 3, 2023 Reply

I just finished watching it, and I wasn't surprised by what I saw or heard at all. I was raised in an independent Baptist church in Michigan where we heard a lot of the same bull crap. My only surprise I guess, it that this has gone on so long without drawing the proper attention it deserves. This movement, and that Joshua generation thing needs to stop NOW.
Coco Densmore June 3, 2023 Reply

I am watching the documentary. I realize that the Baptist church I attended as a child promoted this teaching and I am horrified. I remember how badly I wanted to attend Basic Youth Conflicts but my parents couldn't afford it. Small blessing. I already write extensively about my deconstruction journey and am shocked to see how fully this mind f*** infiltrated my childhood and impacted my adult life in really painful and damaging ways. This documentary comes on the heels of my listening to the Christianity Today podcast on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. I'm still working through the severity of the spiritual abuse I experienced and it's incredibly painful. I recognize now the depth of infiltration of these lies into popular culture and I am astounded. And now what we have to show for it is the white evangelical christian nationalist movement. It's sickening.
Brandon Burns June 3, 2023 Reply

I am grateful for the media transparency that continues the efforts of the fantastic RG leadership team. Hiding tawdry secrets and abuse is never the correct way to move forward. Gothard is the poster child of everything that can go wrong when an abuser hides behind a cloak of false morality.
Jean Oh June 3, 2023 Reply

Jill Duggar Dillard is the hero in this story. Her willingness to speak out alone shows her amazing strength. She used her notoriety to expose the horrors and give a voice to many others. I hope all her siblings follow her. Her husband Derick is great support and together they may save thousands of victims.
- jazmine June 9, 2023 Reply
  
  I completely agree!!
Janet June 3, 2023 Reply

I just saw Shiny Happy People. The young people who spoke out in that docuseries are remarkable. I have so much respect for them and wish them the very best.
cate June 3, 2023 Reply

I’m really thankful for this documentary. I was raised in a southern baptist church that leaned heavily on IBLP teachings and I was homeschooled. I didn’t realize so many of the things I was taught and I went through were not unique to my church/ family, that they are actually tools of manipulation that came from the top of the organization. I left when I became an adult and have basically no contact with anyone from that part of my life. This gives me a lot of hope that these people are FINALLY being exposed for at least some of their corruption and abuse. I hope some day that everything will come to light and this doc will be able to give other survivors like myself some since of justice/closure, even though I don’t think we will ever get true justice from these people and we can’t be given back our childhoods
K Hudson June 4, 2023 Reply

I found the documentary difficult to watch. While we did not use Gothard the Ezzo parenting material was popular at the same time and I recognized so much of the same mentality. It took me several years to detox my mind/emotions from that stuff. And I cringe at how many years I spent trying to parent my kids that way.
Phyllis Nissila June 4, 2023 Reply

Having come from the "mother of all cults," as I call the severely "works" way to heaven I grew up in (at home, school, and church), I completely empathize with the kind of mental, emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse the victims of this philosophy of Bill Gothard's perpetrates (yes, I wrote "philosophy" because it is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ).

It took me a full six years to fully leave and recover from my childhood experiences, but in some sense the recovery continues. However, now, when I see and hear about all the new cults, it doesn't take me more than a few minutes to realize, "that sounds just like...." one of the myriad notions and philosophies of the cult I came out of. And there are hundreds of cults, big and small because they make the people at the top incredibly wealthy and powerful.

My one piece of advice for survivors now is to not remain in the anger stage of grieving (I have come to view my lengthy exit as a grieving process). It is possible to move on so that, like the courageous Duggar daughters, one can be of help to so many others.

Jim and Michelle: you should be very thankful that your daughters have such grace and maturity in exposing the teachings of the cult. Many survivors remain stuck in the anger. Righteous anger, yes, in one sense, but it is necessary to move on through the natural, human anger over such exploitation and harm to and through the last phases of grief. For human anger can be so destructive.

One day, the two of you, Jim and Michelle, will realize what you were involved in and how it harmed your children--and yourselves as well. It will be a hard realization, but the same Jesus Who has enabled and strengthened your daughters and many others to exit cults and now help others will also aid you in what you will need to do to experience the healing peace of repentance and restoration.

Jill and Jinger: you are an inspiration and source of hope for millions by engaging in the courage you have exhibited by shedding light on this dark cults--with the support of your remarkable husbands.

I know for sure that your siblings, deep down, know the truth you are revealing and I pray this will one day enable them to leave it behind for a true relationship with Jesus Christ, too, the real Jesus Who came to free, not to enslave. I sense that your loving support will also be available to them, too, if and when they choose to come out because it is so important to have someone believe you when you reveal the truth of what really happened. So important. No matter how happy and shiny the cult appears to others and, indeed, no matter how you so longed for it to be for you, too.

Blessings to all.
David June 4, 2023 Reply

I went to Bill Gothard's seminars when I was a teenager in Toronto, Canada, and remember the grip it took on my life for a few months. Here were clear cut "biblical principles" that if you only applied them, oh the true life you could have.

Everything was about submission, though. And my recurring question, because I had the beginnings of critical thinking was, what if your overseer is a person who is not a good person? Then what?

And Bill's answer was...then you are out of line.

So, I kissed Bill Gothard goodbye. Was not surprised to hear that he was abusing people all along. This is a cult based around some backwoods uneducated bumpkin who, as I have learned, was suckled on Rushdoony's Dominion theology nonsense that these fundamentalist types love.

Sad to watch how many wives, young girls and other people were emotionally destroyed. I was too stiff-necked...of course. But I am sad for those who weren't as stubborn as I was. Sad.
- Julia Childress July 2, 2023 Reply
  
  I find it so interesting that you mentioned Rousas John Rushdoony in your comment. He is the most dangerous person most people never heard of. His dominionist/reconstructionist theology, where he advocates replacing the US constitution with the law of Moses, is foundational to the whole Christian fundamentalist movement. And if you look around, you can discern that the situation that the US is in today with the current Supreme Court made up mostly of extremist conservatives, a felon and madman a prime candidate to be re-elected president, and principles that we thought were safe from politics all being neutralized, spring from the outsized power of Christian fundamentalists. If he were still alive, Rushdoony would be high-fiving John MacArthur, John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Doug Wilson and that whole corrupt fundy gang.
  - JM July 14, 2023 Reply
    
    Um. No. The fundamentalist movement has nothing to do with Rushdoony at all. It was a reaction to the modernist controversy around the turn of the 1900's.
    
    It was for that time almost exactly as the Great Awakening happened, with churches adopting stances that were contrary to actual Scriptural teachings. Some men rose up to confront it, found they were not alone, and began their own evangelistic ministries.
    
    These were men like Bob Jones Sr. , John R. Rice, and many others. Not a one of them had any influence from Rushdoony. Instead, they had one influence - the simple Scriptures.
    
    Not a one of these men or any in their circles ever said anything about replacing the Constitution with the law of Moses. That is utter hogwash. I had access to Rice's library for 3 1/2 years, and still know people who can readily access all the body of that information. No. The fundamentalist movement has no connection to Rushdoony, nor is he foundational to it.
    
    Better be careful throwing those claims around when there are historians here who know this and have access to those facts.
    - rob war July 14, 2023
      
      I thought Rushdoony was Reformed and Calvinist. John Calvin ran a theocracy of sorts in Geneva. I thought Rushdoony was in that vein. Bill Gothard though was obviously influenced by Rushdoony.
    - Mark August 15, 2023
      
      You might be interested in "The Power Worshippers" by Katharine Stewart, she does a good job of tracing the lineage of Christian Nationalism and it does, indeed have connections to Rushdoony, but more accurately RL Dabney who was one of Rushdoony's inspirations. It's not for the faint of heart as Stewart is pretty obviously anti-Christian and doesn't pull punches.
    - rob war August 15, 2023
      
      Mark,
      
      thanks for the book recommendation. Downloaded to my Kindle. Looking forward to reading it.
    - Mark August 15, 2023
      
      rob war, I'll just say that I was not expecting the book to hit so close to home. I was angry and my wife raged while we were reading it because that flavor of Christian Nationalism was so fundamental to our upbringing. Our churches both picketed abortion clinics, and brought in people like Gary DeMar to speak to the high school retreats.
    - rob war August 15, 2023
      
      Hi Mark, yes, I understand. I read a long time ago (around the same time I attend the basic seminars) the book by Peter Marshall "The Light and the Glory". He is the son of Catherine Marshall who wrote the book "Christy" and that was made into a TV series. At the time he made a convincing case of the "hand of God" in the founding of America. I actually did go a a conference where he was a feature speaker. It does take a while to unwrap the Bible from the America flag. I also did read and liked the book "Jesus and John Wayne" which is by one of the featured people on Shiny Happy People, Kristen Kobes Du Mez. I was glad to see her voice included in it. If you have not read it, I think you would find it helpful. While I think conservative Christian voices should be in the public square, and that includes other conservative religious groups that are not Christian, I just no longer see that voting in the right person etc. is going to bring back our country to God and clean up our moral mess. And I come to this conclusion after watching and following and participation in politics all the way back to my first IBYC seminar in 1979. The energy spent in political efforts over shadowed the basic Christian call to conversion and service to others no matter who they are. Of the 4 episodes of Shiny, I watched the 4 one about 3x in order to closely look at what they were saying about the Joshua Generation. While I thought they were a little on the edge, pointing out the high level of political involvement by those influenced by Bill Gothard is all right there and something to think about.
    - Mark August 15, 2023
      
      I read The Power Worshippers, Jesus and John Wayne and The Making of Biblical Womanhood all around the same time. All very good, but I'm somewhat fuzzy on which book said what. I started diving into Paul and Gender, but it was written more to convince seminary professors, it seems, and too mentally taxing for my summer reading list.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023 Reply
    
    Would it be dangerous to replace a political document with the law of God? dangerous to whom? to Satan?
    
    If every man kept the law of God, who would need politics? The city of man would be the city of God.
    
    If that's what Rushdoony said, he was late to the party. Augustine said it long before. He called it the city of God. Jesus said it even before Augustine. Jesus called it the kingdom of God. What could be more dangerous? Tyrants are ignored, and all the citizens are shiny happy people.
- David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023 Reply
  
  But which of the seven Gothard principles should we renounce? Were they tried and found wanting, or found difficult and left untried?
  
  We are sorry to hear about your breakup. When you kissed Bill Gothard goodbye, did he kiss you back? or just shake hands? We need a new carnal scandal to discuss.
  
  Also, which backwoods uneducated bumpkin do we contemn? Are educated bumpkins any better? Does education upgrade them to critical-thinking bumpkins?
  - Mark August 15, 2023 Reply
    
    All of them. As Biblical principles, they are okay, but when twisted through Gothard's narcissistic mind, they become demonic. Which of those principles has he not twisted in a way that enslaves children and wives and emboldens abusers?
    - David S. Knecht Sr. August 19, 2023
      
      Okay, let's do a comparison. We know the outcome when seven basic principles pass through Bill Gothard's mind. Now may we see an upgrade? How do seven basic principles fare when they pass through brother Mark's mind?
      
      The floor is yours, brother. If Gothard's seven principles are twisted and demonic, then teach us about seven untwisted principles which you affirm. Please remember to keep them angelic instead of demonic.
    - Mark August 19, 2023
      
      I don't buy into moving the goalposts. I renounce Bill Gothard's interpretation of the principles because I have seen their fruit. As Jesus said, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." I don't have to have a replacement for his principles to say that his "tree" has produced bad fruit. Patriarchal church, child abuse, spousal abuse and spiritual abuse are the fruits of Bill Gothard's teaching.
      
      The fruit reflects the tree. The church I'm familiar with, run by an IBLP board member has produced some of the most spiritually abusive pastors in my denomination, including Keith Magill who covered up child abuse and incest while he was a pastor and tried to sweep minor-on-minor sexual abuse under the rug as an elder.
      
      I don't have to jump through your apologetic hoops to prove you wrong. In fact, the hoops are a distraction from the argument in the first place, which is obviously why you want to red herring the crap out of anyone who challenges you. As our great spiritual father W.C. Fields said, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull."
kevin June 4, 2023 Reply

I watched all 4 episodes. This was very well done.

I'm grateful to those who were brave enough to speak up and expose the IBLP/Gothard cult for the damaging cult that it is. And credit is also due to the young women who have spoken up over the past 10 years about what Gothard did to them. Without individuals brave enough to speak up, the abuse just goes on.

The Recovering Grace leadership team has done a great job over the past 10 or 12 years documenting the abuse and picking apart the damaging nature of Gothard's teachings. The website has helped so many, but the reach only goes so far. The docuseries takes it to the next level, it terms of public awareness and exposure. It will help open the eyes of many involved in this and other cults.

They did an excellent job of presenting the actual IBLP/ATI materials, which covered how the organization blames and shames sexual abuse victims. The creation of that material was by design, and serves the purpose of muzzling victims, making them believe that it was their own fault because they did not "cry out" when the abuse happened. There is even a former IBLP leader who frequents these boards who suggests that if a victim does not "cry out", then it must be consentual. The organization clearly attracted a lot of individuals who were abusers, who received cover from the authority and blaming the victim teachings. I'm so glad that Emily spoke about her experience, the things that Gothard did to her, and how her own father used the teachings for cover of his sexual abuse of her. I'm so glad that she and others have found their voice.

Up until now, the warnings have reached thousands. Now they will reach tens of millions. I hope that it empowers other victims to understand what they were exposed to, and the role that Gothard's cult played in what they are possibly experiencing in their lives now. I hope it encourages more to seek healing. I hope that it also helps open the eyes of many former IBLP/ATI/ALERT parents. Most of them meant well and did not understand the damage that they were inflicting on their children by raising them in this organization. I've seem healing happen in families and I think this docuseries can play a role in this. I know one former ATI dad who gathered his family together so that they could all watch the series together. That takes some swallowing of pride, but can be a critical part of healing. I hope others take his lead and do the same.
- Siala Segia Tupu (aka Sarah Johnson) June 13, 2023 Reply
  
  First, I want to say thank you to recovering grace for establishing this page. My biological sister was the one who sent me the shiny happy people documentary. I have been deconstructing for a while but as of last month or so I came to the awareness of the Samoa Scam 2003. I am a survivor of it along with my two biological sisters. I was adopted in November 2003 and the adoption was illegal.
  
  To date I am still locating and finding out how they mishandled and misconstrued our paperwork because I am not a US citizen. I even served in the army but was able to use my green card and then passport that I had believed I had lost. It wasn’t until March of this year that we went on vacation to the Bahamas. We had to have our passports but we believed that we were good because we called and MSC told us that what we had was good. We brought everything we had; everything that our adoptive mother would give over. At that time. Which we did not receive all this paperwork until now (I am now 26 in the American paperwork that is; I am actually 27 according to my original birth date). It has been 20 years of manipulation, lies, deception, and programming. I wasn’t aware of what it was until I came across the documentary and yes, it has been painful. I have been angry and then I have clung to the God I know today. I am one of those that was influenced by bill gothards teachings after the seeds had been planted. I am sharing my complete story as of Monday (June 19th). I would love to share it here.
  
  I was sexually assaulted and raped in the home I grew up in. All by three different males in the family. I share my stories throughout my social media platforms. I now go by my Samoan birth name: Siala Segia Tupu but many knew me or know me as my (“legal” but not legal) name, Sarah Johnson. I was 7 when I was adopted; according to my Samoan documents that had been forged. I got in contact with my biological family when I was 18 but unfortunately, I was going through a lot as that was the year that the sexual assault with one of the adoptive brothers had ended. From the age 17-18 I experienced rape and sexual assault from that same brother. At 12 I experienced indescent assault (according to legal terms) from the eldest brother. At 14 I was molested and groomed by the father whom I have always been close to and still love to date but in a healthier way now. I just choose to not engage until I know that they can acknowledge, believe, and truly repent of the wrong and harm they caused. I wasn’t the only victim but I am now a survivor.
  
  I experienced many of the same brainwashing and programming of the Bill Gothard teachings. From the way we had to dress, music we couldn’t listen to, not having any access to the outside world; no dating, kissing, et cetra. The community I grew up in has many of the same families with the same agenda. In fact, today I still don’t completely trust wether the Johnson parents I was adopted by are either victims of the system or knew what they were doing and was a driving force. I can’t say with 100 % accuracy at this time. However, I do know that they knew about the Samoa scam because I have in recording my adoptive father admitting that the FBI came knocking 4 years after we had been with them but then he trails off after. Only assumptions can be made but I like to try stick with facts and what is closest to the truth.
  
  Yes, I have memories of Samoa and my biological family. As of this past few months I was finally able to get in contact with my biological mother: Teresa Mareta Hugo. My biological father died last year and my adoptive mother failed to let us know until it was to late to make arrangements. In fact, it was one of my biological aunts on my biological fathers side of the family who told me; Hugo Soi was my biological father. He also molested and raped me when I was very young but of course I didn’t ever really speak about this with the adoptive family. I did not feel safe to nor did it matter because none of the other situations mattered that I would try and share about.
  
  I have my Samoan documents as well as, VA documentation of everything I spoke with and reported to my counselor in the military: Captain Woods. She was the only one who actually did her job as far as aiding in counseling as it should be. If it wasn’t for her, my company would have kicked me out as a dishonorable discharge as they were trying so hard to do. Even with the army knowing my PTSD and that I had trauma. My company was 36th Engineer Brigade at Forthood, Tx; I went in as a 12B. That story alone can get even deeper. I experienced rape and sexual assault in the military because I was very green, naive, and was programmed to believe the best of the world. To stay silent for the bad people and love the toxic environment as that’s what I was raised in.
  
  My adoptive mother kept me and my biological sisters silent even when I did share with both parents about the sexual assault but like the duggards, I believed it was my fault. For a very long time I carried every single situation that wasn’t my fault as if it was. All of my journals are filled with prayers for those who did me wrong. I even told my adoptive mother about my adoptive father’s situation shortly after it happened; I was told to stay silent and not to go to the police. So I didn’t and I stayed silent until the army. I was given the therapists and counselors through whom they chose and never what I needed or wanted.
  
  I attended Teenpact, Endeavor, Summit Minsitries, was trained in Worldview (indoctrinated with Bill Gothards false teachings); National Convention and had all the things that they talk about in the documentary but a little bit more modernized. Our family was a huge in Denton Bible Church who is also indoctrinated with Bill Gothards teachings. I have gotten out but I am not the only survivor.
  
  It was pretty insane realizing that I was one of the 81 children who were stolen and then to find out that I was one of the children raised in a family who followed the teachings and training of Bill Gothard. I was sent to the army as it was one of two choices I had after being kicked out of the home and on my own for a good 9 months to a year. I believe. Let me tell you, the Army and basic training was hell in and of itself but even more so because of the upbringing I was raised in. I was not prepared for that world. I have cried many tears and thought I was insane.
  
  I was suicidal form the age 14 and have had depression off and on throughout the years. In 2019-2020 I was passing out so badly that their were times I almost drowned, passed out at a gas station, passed out when it got cold or it was to hot, et cetra. I had my now 4 year old son when I was 21 and yea, my adoptive mother did react out of fear and the stigmas and programming to be “perfect”. Because this child was out of wedlock and I had no relations with the father (who was a witness to the rape I experienced but was unknown to the family at the time); I was rushed and pressured into marrying my then husband. That marriage was toxic because both of us had very reasonable past traumas of our own. Both of us were sick people and yes, he is black. My son is half black and half Samoan. Black culture was frowned upon growing up but was very hidden in a way. That shiny people being happy is very relatable.
  
  You can only imagine how that was growing up and much more once I had my son. In 2021 I experienced domestic violence and was the one at fault (according to the police who failed to do their part) for trying to protect myself after the then husband went after me and threw me around; choked me and after 3-4 years of narcissistic behavior and manipulation from him, I was getting to the end of my rope.
  
  God deserves all glory. He alone held me together and he alone kept me from multiple sucide attempts. I was not a faithful partner to the then husband, I will say that. I have owned any and all of my wrongs and made amends where they were necessary. I started drinking heavily in the few months following our new found home (the one my adoptive mother pushed for me to buy despite the fact that I had a different home in mind). This home was a home right behind theirs and I didn’t feel comfortable but I hadn’t found my voice and I didn’t know how to say no especially to those over me (authorities). So, I bought it with my VA disability income aid and status. That marriage was hell; not just because of the mental, physical, and emotional abuse but mainly, because of the awareness it began to bring up with the family. When my ex husband shot himself in November of 2021, that was the real beginning of the wake up for me. NONE of the family except for the adoptive father came to support me or asked how I was doing. In fact the segregation really showed face even more when they tried to keep my younger biological sister and me from speaking and sharing what she was finding out about the Samoa scam 2003 because her husband had to write a essay about it for school in Canada; (Her and her husband also came to see me at my airb&b in Lewisville and were the only ones to bring me some food as I was very broke and was very alone).
  
  That’s how her husband came across the Samoa scam 2003 and out two and two together; they shared it with me! I wasn’t sure what to believ at the time but I wasn’t closed off to it. Especially, with the way I had seen the family cave and cater to the parents. I missed my eldest brothers wedding because of the “authority” status. My adoptive father suggested that I don’t go because of my then alcoholic issues and he was worried that them having alcohol at their wedding might be an issue as I was just beginning to “recover”. I worked through AA and met a sponsor who actually helped me way more than I had ever had however, through that I pieced together my past and began to realize my story and how it was all making sense. Yes, I had struggled with alcohol but the root issue was the assault, racial discrimination, rape, and psychological abuse I was experiencing behind closed doors at home.
  
  Where it got worse was when that adoptive brother who was my perpetrator moved in with his wife into my home shortly after we had moved in. No one even bothered to ask if that was ok because again, no one acknowledges or will accept that He did do what he did. What was supposed to be 3 months to 6 (at most) of allowing my “family” to stay with us because I didn’t want them out on the streets ended up being 8 months. Again, I was to kind and didn’t know how to say no especially to someone who I still saw as a perpetrator.
  
  I locked myself away most of the time in my room and always locked the doors when I changed or showered because yeah, it was very triggering. When I shared my concerns and confided in my adoptive mother she instead pointed out about how they had allowed me and my then husband to stay with them and that was almost 8 months; it was actually 4 and a good 9 months in between before another 4 months. I am not ungrateful for that but was very frustrated and felt alone once more because I was not being heard. I was dismissed because that brother was the Josh Duggar in our family. Our eldest was the golden child who could do no wrong. Which was unfair and I saw how it took its toll on him. Their only biological daughter was constantly dismissed about her wrongs as well because she was the “baby” who was constantly applauded for the smallest things but there was assault and harassment with her and my son. My son was not the only who experienced this; however, that is not my story to tell. I experienced harassment and bullying from both this daughter and my perpetrator (the second oldest son) growing up.
  
  My 4 year old son whom they kept during the time I was kicked out of my home through the domestic violence (I later calculated it to be 9 months which I did not know because of the trauma and pain I was trying to work through so I could have him back with me). I was the one given the restraining order (I know, crazy) and thanks to Earl Dobson that case was dropped.
  
  Currently, I am choosing to share my full story with all documents and recordings from all the reports I haven’t given to the FBI, Policeforce, investigators, and VA Legal Aid, as well as, CPS. People need to wake up and see how bad the governmental system is. They failed me and still are. They failed my family in Samoa. Still are. I even got a hold of the Samoan police and will be sharing the emails with them and phone recordings; they have been just as terrible in helping. Nobody wants to do their job but rather dismiss and lead me to unhelpful resources so I am doing this on my own. I return to school July 5th because I had to step back due to all of this coming out. I am currently in school to become a lawyer. I am pursuing my bachelors degree so I can then take the LSAT and go into law school. I choose this not for me but to be a voice for the voiceless. To speak up for my own community who is struggling and others whose kids have gotten out but are struggling and suffering as they try to understand and learn how they want to share. This stuff that I share is just the cusp. I pursued my own education because no one in the family wanted to help with that. My adoptive father did encourage the legal route and pushed it more after the fallout with the ex husband. I am now in a healthier relationship, one I chose and God brought to me as I was drowning and about to end my life after the domestic violence and being brave enough to file for divorce and get out despite the stigmas and judgement I was receiving. This fiancé and his family have been the most helpful out of anyone (outside of therapists that I chose) throughout my last 20 years. They have completely loved us in the way Christ actually teaches; they have stuck by and my biological sister as we have chosen to stand up and get out. They have completely loved with open arms and yes, they are Cuban but in societal terms: “black”. They are completely the opposite of what I was raised to believe about the black culture. My fiancé has been a huge part of my journey as of the last year and half. He has been so patient and supportive as I have and am still working through getting all the way out. It’s not just the physical, it’s the mental. It’s the spiritual and the emotional as well. I share my story to encourage all and anyone who wants out, to be brave enough to do so. You might lose materialistic things and “family” but you will gain so much more. God delights in those who speak truth and who choose Him over fear. Choose truth and to speak up for yourself as no one else will and no one else can until you say: No more. I choose to stand in Truth. What is wrong is wrong and what is right, is right. This concept was completely misconstrued and diluted for me growing up and I now am retraining and rewiring my brain to understand what wrong means and what falls into what’s wrong vs what’s right. I am sorry for all of those who won’t be strong enough to get out but I share for those who are and whom want to. YOU matter and your voice deserves to be heard. Alofa,
  Siala Tupu/ Sarah Johnson
  - Jeanne June 13, 2023 Reply
    
    Dear Siala, praying that God will bring complete healing to you and your sister. Also praying that your studies in law school will be blessed and successful. Thank you for sharing your story.
    - Siala Segia Tupu (aka Sarah Johnson) June 13, 2023
      
      Thank you Jeanne, I appreciate it. I am finding my way out of the anger and into my choice of peace and healthy love. Healthy boundaries. With the help of my fiancé and those around me who walk in what is true; what is right and pursuing both. For that I am grateful and blessed. I choose to share my story and mute fear. I do not want to be an enabler in the society that we live in today.
  - Sheryl Roberts July 1, 2023 Reply
    
    Thank you, Siala, you are very brave to come out with your story. It moved me, especially because we were missionaries to Cambodia where many illegal adoptions took place as well. We saw how hard it was for poor families and how few resources they had. The temptation was great to "sell" their children either into the adoption market or sex trade. I was a homeschooling mother of 10 who flirted around the edges of the Gothard movement but did not get fully immersed. Moving to Cambodia saved us from further descent into that movement. It also gave us a wider view of the world and God's love for the world which cannot be packaged by one man. My prayers go with you are you continue your journey to healing.
- Rebecca August 9, 2023 Reply
  
  I am also grateful for the men who spoke up. Patriarchal authoritarian religion is terribly destructive for women and girls, but it also destroys men and boys.
Stephanie June 4, 2023 Reply

I thought something was off about the Duggars from day one and don't know HOW people didn't pick up on it.

This docuseries was wild. I am always so confused as to why just because I was born a girl I'm supposed to be content to just do what a man tells me to do. The fact that God would give women all of the awesome gifts we have just to have them suppressed is beyond ridiculous. Why God would give us life and then tell us we can do NOTHING to enjoy it makes ZERO sense. I am a Christian and I refuse to believe God wants us to be abused and misused and I would never raise my sons or daughters to believe that to be the case.

I applaud those members of this cult that survived it and came out of it.
Chynna J June 4, 2023 Reply

Applauds to Jill for speaking up. Very very proud of her. Jim
Bob and Michelle should be ashamed of themselves. I’m on episode 3 so far and I’m disgusted…
rob war June 4, 2023 Reply

This documentary was so well done. It put in video form all the stories and testimonies I've read here and looking into the faces of all the different participants just brings to life the abusive false teachings of Bill Gothard and IBLP. It hit all of the points that I would hope that it would do such as bringing up the earlier sex scandal of Bill and Steve and how it ties into Bill's later abuse of young women. I hope that the producers will continue their work because they stated this is just the tip of the iceberg. I was concerned about the political direction, but after watching it, I ended up agreeing with the conclusions and implications. After all, it was corrupted Gotharites on the City Council of Indianapolis that looked the other way over the complaint abuses on the training center there. I do hope and pray that all the brave souls in this documentary will continue to heal and find wholeness in their lives.
Laura L June 4, 2023 Reply

This series was hard to watch but it’s so important. An estimated 2 million people have attended IBLP conferences; with many more people having read the materials and been exposed to Gothard’s teaching in other ways. Praying for healing for these victims. Praying that justice will be served. So many people hurt by this organization.
Vicki June 4, 2023 Reply

Watched the documentary. Same as Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong and the now defunct “Worldwide Church of God” (although there are offshoots). I grew up in my teen years in that cult due to my Mother. Thankfully, I never believed any of it and got away once I was of legal age. For me, the damage was minimal compared to many others, whose stories mimic the Bill Gothard stories. Someone needs to do a documentary on this cult also and expose them all. A lot of survivors with horror stories.
- Jennifer June 9, 2023 Reply
  
  Me too. It's crazy. Alert academy which is bill gothards army school bought the ambassador college grounds I grew up in at worldwide in big sandy after the church split up. Really 😧
  - David S. Knecht Sr. June 10, 2023 Reply
    
    AERT began in 1994 at the IBLP Northwoods Conference Center, but moved to Big Sandy in 2001 when that spacious property became available. The Northwoods was prettier, but Big Sandy was roomier.
Julie K. June 4, 2023 Reply

This reminds me of a cult I grew up in Akron, OH. https://www.scribd.com/document/56952574/History-of-SOS-Communities-BREAD-OF-LIFE-1985
BOLC was a charismatic, evangelical group that claimed they were following Roman Catholic dogma. But the Catholic Church was like nope.
They were big on assigning roles to men, women, children; obedience; separating men from women; boys from girls; girls had to wear dresses/skirts (no pants), children were disciplined in a similar fashion to episode 2 of Shiny Happy Faces.
Thankfully, my parents recognized the backwardness after my Mom was put on notice for wearing a dress with too low of a hem on the back and I told my Dad one of my friend's Dad's threatened to spank me. I was 3 or 4 when I got out. Unfortunately, my 5 elder siblings suffered the brunt of the psychological abuse and are still very burned and broken over it.
Hopefully, like BOLC was disbanded, IBLP will be too after this documentary.
For all those who spoke out publicly about this, especially Jill, you are very brave and I am grateful for you. Thank you for doing the right thing.
Susan June 4, 2023 Reply

Ok folks, here is a great chance to educate the moderator of the bill gothard fb group. https://www.facebook.com/official.BillGothard-
Scroll down to oct 14-2022

A commenter asked this question---Please discuss how you blame a woman for her husband being a sexual predator- your teachings are so incredibly disgusting and wrong. A man who molests children is at fault- not his wife. You can’t blame others for their sins

And this was the response from Kerri: (Moderator) Bill does not teach anything resembling this. A wife is not responsible for her husband's sin, no more than his is responsible for her's. Where were you told this, if I may ask?

She asked and I am sure many of you could give her the information she is asking for. Of course, any responses should be put as nicely as you can.
- JM June 5, 2023 Reply
  
  So let's answer it. Put your money where your mouth is. It should be the easiest thing in the world to do. Show her, put up, and let the chips fall where they may. It's the one thing I don't see happening. That is my frustration.
- rob war June 5, 2023 Reply
  
  Just take it from my experiences elsewhere with Bill's supporters, there is nothing you can do or say to change their minds. They will either deny it, claim you misunderstood Bill or go off on another tangent to avoid the truth. Dog fights on Facebook will just get deleted anyway. However, a quick review on Bill's twitter account will show over 118 comments that are all negative to Bill and not one positive supportive one. Whoever is over there is asleep at the wheel. One of the most gripping interviews on the Docuseries was with the former IBLP couple and the guy described how his father got arrested molesting another child and his mother was told by IBLP people that she had to take him back in the home which she did. His wife just grabbed his hand at that moment because it obviously was traumatic. That's what real spouses do. Blows out of the water whatever that idiot on FB said to defend Gothard.
4given June 4, 2023 Reply

Thank you to those who produced this show and the people who shared their story. I takes courage to stand up and say this is not right. To many times people use religion to force others to believe that their way is the true teaching of the Bible. I have seen it to many times. Thank you, thank you thank you for shining a light on the reality of "Reality TV"
Tom June 5, 2023 Reply

I saw the first three episodes, but haven't seen the fourth yet.. will there be more?
JoAnne Cheek June 5, 2023 Reply

My husband and I attended IBLP seminars for many years. We were not raised in Christian homes and as a young married couple, then parents, a lot of what we learned about marriage and family structure was helpful since we had not seen anything similar modeled to us. We did realize as we grew in our personal understanding of Scripture that some of what was taught was not Biblical and was even humanistic philosophy or psychology. Our use of what we learned at IBLP in our parenting and homeschooling was basic but Scriptural. The commitment necessary for ATI seemed unusual and unnecessary to us. Some of our homeschooling acquaintances showed uncomfortable, to us, adoration for Gothard and adherence to unBiblical standards for their children. I came across this website years ago and I grieve for these young people's loss of innocence at the hands of Gothard, ATI and the monster that everything Gothard came to be. I never watched or knew much about the Duggar family. To be honest most homeschooling families that I have known are just too busy to know about or get caught up in these other people's lives and teachings. My point in commenting here is two-fold. First, and most importantly, Biblical principles are truth even if used wrongly. The Bible does teach that the husband is the head of the home, the wife is to submit to his headship,and children are to be taught obedience. This done according to God's ways is wonderful and right. It is the perversion of it that causes problems. Secondly, we are told that men will use and bend these truths for their own benefit, wealth, fame, and lust. Gothard is a prime example of that. The man, his teachings and his blind followers are the problem. If you claim to be a Christian, you better know the God of the Bible not a man's version of Him!
- Susan June 7, 2023 Reply
  
  Actually the part about the Bible teaching that the husband is the head of the home, the wife is to submit to his headship is wrong. That is an example of how those verses have been taken out of context and added to and the result is abuse in many cases. You end up with IBLP umbrella and hundreds of rules about how women are to submit.
  
  God created Adam and Eve equal, both under authority to God and one command, tend the garden. The fall brought in patriarchy which was harmful to both men and women as there was always one or a few men in domination over others be it a family town or country. It is biblical in a historical sense but not endorsed by God.
  
  And Jesus fixed it. He treated women equally with men. They were working side by side with men in the early church, both building it and dying for it.
  
  Paul wrote those letters to help solve problems in the early church--- he did not talk against the norms of the society, which included patriarchy and slavery but gave advice how to navigate within those social things as christians under the headship of christ. Both women and slaves had complete freedom in Christ but Paul was giving them directives on how to best function under patriarchy and slavery. Yet today we abhor slavery.
  
  Think of this---a single woman has Christ as her headship and authority. She gets married and transfers headship and authority to a fallible man? That is certainly not fair to that man, he can never live up to Christ.
  
  or--- if she has a husband as her headship and authority then he dies? What man becomes her headship and authority?
  
  Also if the women is supposed to submit, then how far or to what degree? Patriarchal churches have come up with all sorts of answers, rules, etc to answer these and each one thinks their answers are the truth of God.
  
  Do you see how confusing it is.
  - JoAnne Cheek June 20, 2023 Reply
    
    Actually, it only becomes confusing when you add in what any man or church says or let your own thoughts or preferences be the guide by which you live.
    The Bible's teachings are God's teachings, quite obviously. Paul wrote his letter, guided by God, to make God's ways plain to His followers that had not formerly known Him as the Hebrews did. I Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5 give God's structure for the family (the word umbrella is not found in either). We can all come up with "what ifs" but we are just giving ourselves an 'out' if we feel we need it. Women believers are called to do what Scripture says and not to do what scripture says not to. There is the standard! The woman's curse at the fall was for her desire to be to her husband and he would rule over her and women have been fighting it ever since. Again, Scripture addresses both the role of the single woman and the widow. This is all easily resolved if you remember that satan always uses the doubt causing approach of "has God really said?". If He really did say, and He did about women's roles, then obey Him!
    - Susan June 23, 2023
      
      "Has God said? " is a tactic often used to shut down questioning. That phrase places the person asking questions in an uncomfortable position that they might be doing something wrong or going into forbidden territory or worse, the mouthpiece or pawn of satan.
      
      Actually there is nothing wrong with questioning God or what the bible says. In fact, we do need to question what God has said, not that we are going against God but double checking on what others have told us the Bible says. And as happy shiny doc shows, there has been a lot of false teachings of what the scriptures mean and how they are applied which caused much abuse since the followers were afraid or brainwashed into not questioning fearing they might be going against God himself.
      
      God gave me a brain to research and think and actually come up with "my own thoughts" and conclusions and questions. It is patriarchy that does not want women--or men--- to think for themselves. Those questions and what ifs are valid and important as no one leads exactly the same life and answers might vary as to their needs and situation.
      
      Many think God has outlined roles for men and different roles for women---but the only role we are all called to is to grow in Christ and work as He has gifted us and that can include women preaching and pastoring. ( the underground church in Iran is led by women gifted of God.)
      
      btw, churches do not have programs that help widows and single women are well able to take care of themselves as many have jobs or careers. Life has changed over the centuries from what it was in Paul's day.
      
      And that curse of women---Good News!!!! it was fixed by Jesus 2000 years as part of his complete redeeming work---We are no longer under the curse, any part of it. Men have used it as a tactic to keep women under control and out of areas of leadership in the church and to keep them from asking questions.
  - JoAnne Cheek July 9, 2023 Reply
    
    It seems you have already decided not to follow the Scriptural role for women because of something men or 'a man' has done. It is very sad and I will only point out the truth about your remarks and be done. It is satan that puts it in our hearts to question God just as he did Eve in the garden. And I don't see the Scriptural proof at all for it being ok to question God. Yes, always question anything any man or woman has said. If it doesn't line up with the Bible, reject it and them. I don't really see an answer to your tirade about patriarchy, it's all brainwashing. To be quite honest the brain He gave you is part of the equipment He gave you to learn about Him, serve Him, love Him, and share about Him.
    God has definitely given differing roles to men and to women. To say that was done away with when Christ died for our sins shows a profound lack of understanding of what Christ did die for, the forgiveness of sin to those that will die to themselves and live for Him. The New Testament reinforces God's role for women in many places, Titus 2 for example, and this was written after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Men don't keep women out of leadership roles in the Church, God's Word does! You and so many here are lamenting the indoctrination of B.G. and the seminar but the indoctrination that you are receiving at the hands of those that want to make women feel angry at God's roles and rules, and empowered to overstep those roles and rules is rebounding in just as Biblically wrong and harmful a direction as the former.
    - Mark August 15, 2023
      
      Weird, I thought your name was JoAnne, but then you call yourself "Scripture".
      
      "It seems you have already decided not to follow the Scriptural role for women"
      
      I think it's dangerous, prideful and arrogant to take your interpretation of the Bible and try to claim that it's God's interpretation. If that is truly what God is saying, don't you think God can defend himself, and don't you think the Holy Spirit will shed light on what the truth is?
      
      And, therein lies the problem. In the authoritarian/Gothardite world, there isn't room for God to work. Instead, it has to be done through people shaming people.
      
      Scripture can be interpreted through multiple lenses, but be clear that the patriarchal lens is a cultural lens you are using to interpret scripture, not something that comes out of scripture.
      
      Here's an example, read when Samson is born in Judges. Does God operate through patriarchal authority? No, he commands the wife what will be done with Samson. SHE is the one uncomfortable bringing this to her husband, so God acquiesces and talks to the husband, too. But, if Gothardesque authority is the rule of scripture, God would have never talked to Samson's mother without her husband present, right?
- Greg June 8, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank u, well said, and Biblical
  - David S. Knecht Sr. June 24, 2023 Reply
    
    Here is a contribution from C.S. Lewis:
    
    As long as the husband and wife are agreed, no question of a head need arise; and we may hope that this will be the normal state of affairs in a Christian marriage. But when there is a real disagreement, what is to happen? Talk it over, of course; but assuming they have done that and still failed to reach agreement. What do they do next?
    They cannot decide by a majority vote, for in a council of two there can be no majority. Surely, only one or other of two things can happen: either they must separate and go their own ways or else one or other of them must have a casting vote.
    If marriage is permanent, one or other party must, in the last resort, have the power of deciding the family policy. You cannot have a permanent association without a constitution.
    If there must be a head, why the man? Well, firstly, is there any very serious wish that it should be the woman? As far as I can see, even a woman who wants to be the head of her own house does not usually admire the same state of things when she finds it going on next door. She is much more likely to say “Poor Mr. X! Why he allows that appalling woman to boss him about the way she does is more than I can imagine.” I do not think she is even very nattered if anyone mentions the fact of her own “headship.”
    There must be something unnatural about the rule of wives over husbands, because the wives themselves are half ashamed of it and despise the husbands whom they rule. But there is also another reason; and here I speak quite frankly, because it is a reason you can see from outside even better than from inside.
    The relations of the family to the outer world—what might be called its foreign policy—must depend, in the last resort, upon the man, because he always ought to be, and usually is, much more just to the outsiders. A woman is primarily fighting for her own children and husband against the rest of the world. Naturally, almost, in a sense, rightly, their claims override, for her, all other claims. She is the special trustee of their interests.
    The function of the husband is to see that this natural preference of hers is not given its head. He has the last word in order to protect other people from the intense family patriotism of the wife. If anyone doubts this, let me ask a simple question. If your dog has bitten the child next door, or if your child has hurt the dog next door, which would you sooner have to deal with, the master of that house or the mistress? Or, if you are a married woman, let me ask you this question. Much as you admire your husband, would you not say that his chief failing is his tendency not to stick up for his rights and yours against the neighbours as vigorously as you would like? A bit of an Appeaser?
Debbie Dulin June 5, 2023 Reply

I just watched Shiny Happy People. Thank you!!!! Thank you for putting words to my life. I am 53 years old and that is my story as well. I was one of Gothards "chosen ones"!!! I was asked to work for Gothard at the home office however, I was never really given a job. I was suppose to be grateful. I never really fit in, But I certainly went to Northwoods conference center and I rode in the car with Gothards hand on my leg! My name is not Dugger but my brother sexually abused me and it was swept under the rug as well. So grateful for Jills escape and for finally putting words to so many others experiences. The universe (God, who is different than what I was taught) does work for me. It is just so challenging to get free. Just going back to counseling once again to break through more abusive thoughts and beliefs. Thank you to everyone in the Shiny Happy People. You gave accurate account of the facts. You have helped others be free.
- kevin June 6, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank you for sharing your experience Debbie. We hear you! I'm happy to hear that the docuseries put words to what you have experienced. Your experience matters. You matter. You are heard and if you ever get to the point of wanting to share your experience here on Recovering Grace, we will listen.
  
  Best of luck with your therapy and working through all the things that you need to work through.
Donna June 5, 2023 Reply

The documentary was very informative. My church back in the 60s was very much into Gothard's Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts, and I watched the documentary in one sitting. The documentary mentions the Joshua Generation, and I was wondering whether anyone knows what other cults we need to keep an eye on at this time. I had thought that Gothard's teachings had kind of just died out, but it looks like they have possibly just gone underground.
Michael June 6, 2023 Reply

I was in IBLP/ATI for seven years during my childhood-teenage years (the 90's). Seeing all the clips of Thompson-Boling Arena on the UTK campus brought back a lot of memories. I remember singing in that massive choir every summer and listening to countless hours of Gothard yammering from the podium.

Two quick Knoxville stories:

1) I remember vividly being somewhere on the UTK campus in an auditorium when I was 14 with about 250+ other junior high aged boys and Gothard coming in to speak to us. He pulled out a confiscated note from his pocket that some boy had written to a girl asking her if she wanted to eat lunch together. After Gothard read the note, he made us get down on our knees and vow to God that we would never succumb to the lustful temptations of the flesh like this young man had done. That was when I was finally like, "okay, this Gothard dude is clearly an idiot."

2) Does anybody remember seeing Mickey Bonner die on stage in Knoxville? He was the guy who hated Cabbage Patch dolls. He died of a heart attack at the podium one summer evening. Totally freaked me out.

Lastly, I watched all four episodes of Shiny Happy People and thought it was excellent. Thankfully my parents weren't near as strict with Gothard's teachings as most ATI parents were but I'm truly sad for fellow ATI kids that had to deal with insane amounts of abuse. That said, Jill Dillard is forever my hero. JDD > bg.
- Chris June 8, 2023 Reply
  
  I was in ATI from '85 until I graduated in '97, so I am probably around your age. I remember those Knoxville conferences. I remember having to wear the navy/white "uniform", which I hated, because they never fit right due to the fact they were always hand-me-down pants/shirts lol. Hearing the audio of "It Will Be Worth it All" in the docuseries was a little chilling.
  
  I remember being bussed to another location as middle schooler, and I remember that note being read. I also remember being lectured for the next hour or two on what we were supposed to do with our "lustful thoughts'.
  
  I don't remember the specifics of the episode with Mickey Bonner, but that's probably because I wasn't paying attention,. I remember something happening and a lot of hushed commotion, but then everything seemed to proceed like normal afterward. I think I went back to hating being there.
  
  It's been interesting to work back through my ATI experiences over the past year and a half. I left home and went to college as soon as I could. Once I left, I hadn't thought about ATI for probably 15 years. Then on a whim, I googled ATI and BG and was blown away by what I found. That lead me to Recovering Grace, and I realized the extent of the negative impact ATI/IBLP had on a lot of people.
  
  I was lucky, my dad wasn't a dictatorial tyrant. He wasn't an abuser. He and my mom were good people who loved God and wanted to make sure their kids loved God too. They were victimized by IBLP more than I was. I remember my dad being in a depressive state for weeks after every Knoxville conference because he didn't measure up. It made my distaste for ATI/IBLP even stronger.
  
  Much love for everyone who has come forward. It takes courage to confront the past, and to be open about it. Grateful that none of us are alone in this.
- esbee June 8, 2023 Reply
  
  OMG- a boy asking a girl to eat lunch with him OH HORRORS OF HORRORS- he might rape her in the middle of a PBJ sandwich !!!!!!! and worse get crumbs and jelly all over the nice neatly rowed tables!!!! oh, the humanity!!!!
  
  something is very very wrong with bill. or he is jealous.
  
  personally i think he had unrequited love from a 1950's blond teen actress he saw on a tv show once or twice and never got over it and IBLP is his attempt to keep his obsession alive.
- Jess June 21, 2023 Reply
  
  My family was also involved with ATI from 1985 through the mid '90's (after beginning involvement with Gothard and the IBLP/IBYC seminars in the late 70's). I remember many summer trips to UTK, and agree that the documentary clips from the Thompson-Bowling Arena and choir sessions, talking heads, etc., brought back a lot of memories.
  
  As one of very few single-parent families "allowed" to participate in such a "Godly" group, we felt privileged to be involved, after homeschooling with personal curricula since 1979. My mother did not like us being away from home, so we fortunately avoided the trauma of working at Headquarters or any of the training facilities. We did, however, attend several 1-3 week learning sessions (counseling, music, Northwoods, etc.), sometimes with siblings, and other times, alone.
  
  I grew up with Wisdom Booklets and annual IBLP seminars for more than 12 years. We were involved with the Character First program and my sisters introduced several years of the training in our local schools. As an independent third-born, at some point in my mid-teens, I checked out a bit. The Rules about only wearing skirts, having long hair, avoiding rock music and not dating, seemed out of line with what I read for myself in the Bible. In my understanding, those mandates reached outside of Scripture. The principles of Authority were cool until I reached 18 and beyond and was still treated as a child, under the "authority" of my mom, who said she wanted us to marry but never met a man good enough for me or my two sisters (we also had a younger brother). I eventually recognized that her "authority" had become control, based in fearful anticipation of what might happen to us if we ever made a "wrong" choice. I thankfully finally saw that more clearly, and ended up gaining the courage to leave home and become independent at the age of 26. My sisters did not, and stayed home, unmarried, into their 40's. One of my sisters eventually married, the other remains faithfully devoted to living at home and serving my mother until she finds a husband (who is not divorced and wants to be the sole breadwinner, in accordance with vows taken at Mr. Gothard's prompting).
  
  I don't necessarily have regrets about my experience with ATI, but I can identify it as having many cultish aspects. My personal faith and love for God has a foundation in Gothard's principles, but I don't feel it was only influenced by his teaching. I'm grateful for my current relationship with my heavenly father and my deep understanding of theology, much of which began with Bill Gothard and his guest speakers. I'd like to believe Gothard's intentions were for good, but the human-ness in all of us can take over and shift us out of balance. It seems that lust and greed impact all of us, to a greater or lesser extent. I'm so sorry to know that so many have such lasting pain from what was intended to be beneficial. I know that over the past two decades I have also needed to recover from some mindsets I was encouraged to embrace and some teachings I was convinced were true.
  
  In recollecting my direct interactions with Mr. Gothard, I recall meeting with him one time in my early 20's and expressing my desperation at being asked by my mother to remain at home, without having a "real" job, gaining higher education or being allowed to meet a man to marry. He encouraged me to write a course that would be my "ticket to freedom," on the topic of How to Excel in a Single Parent Home. He said I should make up 7-10 steps to success and begin sharing my firsthand knowledge with others... after being told for many years that God's will (i.e., my mother's will, via Bill Gothard) was for me to stay in the protection of my home, I remember feeling shocked that Mr. Gothard would encourage me to find a way out. This was the beginning of my enlightenment, and helped me recognize how skewed and (to an extent) made-up, his teachings were.
  
  I struggled to catch up on life and maturity through my 30's, but in my 40's, managed to obtain my undergraduate degree (and have raised two amazing children). I am grateful for my homeschool experience, but wish it hadn't been extended into my mid-20's by the influence of IBLP. I stand with those who feel stunted and/or negatively impacted by the teachings of Mr. Gothard, and appreciate the courage of those who shared their stories in the documentary.
  
  ...that became a ramble, but it was cathartic. I appreciate reading the stories of other ATI Alumni and hope this page can continue to be a source of support and healing for many.
Linn June 6, 2023 Reply

I went to a Basic Seminar my freshman year of college. Someone in our church had introduced Gothard to the pastor, and he got on board fairly quickly. I ended up leaving my church after attending a much healthier place in college, and I finally trashed my red binder. Watching the documentary made me thankful for all the stuff I missed because I never worshiped at the altar of Gothard. I'm a single, self-supporting woman who is very active in my church and respected for who I am (teaching career and Masters degree). My current church has a homeschool group, but Gothard and his principles are not welcome. I am thankful for that.
If you came through IBLP, my heart goes out to you. You can get help...find healthy people and start connecting with them. My family of origin is very unhealthy because of things other than IBLP. I was able to break free and make my own way, and I have had a good life, for which I am thankful.
Vicki S. June 7, 2023 Reply

As a former ATI mom, I agree with so much that's been shared here. It can take years to wash our brains of dysfunctional, harmful ideologies and philosophies such as Gothard's, and we need to allow ourselves the time to process, to grieve, to analyze, be angry if need be, and begin to learn healthy ways of thinking and being. Depending on how deep you were into the cult (or a dysfunctional church), it can take many years to come to a place of understanding and self-forgiveness for the part you played in supporting toxic belief systems.

One thing not generally talked about in these kinds of discussions is the unspoken-but-internalized notion of "perfectibility" -- the idea that we human beings can -- with the "correct teaching," of course -- become our idealized selves, with all of our messy humanness left behind, a shining light pointing The Way for others. It's nonsense, of course, but when we internalize this notion, shame becomes our near-constant companion, as we view the chasm between our noble intentions and our faulty execution. We will never fully outgrow brokenness though, because it is part of the human condition of living in the real world where no one has all the facts, and humans frequently misunderstand and hurt one another. No "7-Steps" to this or that can provide the on-ramp to human perfectibility.

I've been deeply grateful for the books, blogs and podcasts that have provided the stepping-stones out of guilt-ideologies, and into a more loving understanding of God and my fellow humans.
- Sophie L June 19, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank you for your comments about perfectibility. They are spot on and apply whether or not one comes from a Gothardite background. We have this desire as humans to be righteous and perfect, to be like God; the danger comes when we think we can attain perfection via rules, methods, and systems, without acknowledging that only Jesus is truly perfect.
Katherine Milne June 7, 2023 Reply

I am currently watching the docuseries and trying to make sense of it in light of what happened to me during my time in homeschooling/IBLP. When I was 17 I ended up with cumulative mental health problems that I chose to deal with by attending a journey to the heart, after which Bill invited me to work at headquarters. I prayed and talked with Bill alone in his office at least 4-5 times a week and recognize now that I was being groomed. The sexual confessions, the isolation from family, creating an intense jealousy dynamic between us girls, asking me to sit across from him and playing footsies with me at Sunday dinners, holding hands, the winking, trying to convince me to get veneers so I would smile more, convincing me that my parents were weak... just all of these little things that just kept building. This was a painfully hard series to watch, but strangely therapeutic. I've never related more to a docuseries in my life.
Lisa L. M. June 7, 2023 Reply

Homeschool mom - son for 4 yrs. 2005, daughter for 11 yrs., 2009. We were conservative, but, thankfully, we didn't get caught up in Gothard's material. Someone gave me some Character 1st info which I did use in addition to our Abeka, Saxon Math, Apologia Sciences, Latin, etc. We were in an academic co-op for several yrs. Daughter did TeenPact (2 yrs) and NCFCA speech & debate (4 yrs.). Both were positive experiences. I had homeschool friends/acquaintances that did IBLP & ATI. We even had 1 family of many kids (whom we all admired for their perfectly behaved kids all in a row), but their family had a terrible tragedy happen. Their son (who married a pastor's daughter) shot/killed his wife & was sentenced to life in prison. We all assume it was the strict teachings that made divorce so scandalous and forbidden that he resorted to murder in the heat of the moment. Horrible & so sad!!
I think extremely strict rules - kids all under control (outwardly), syrupy sweet, submissive wives, etc can lead to tyrant, abusive husbands & fathers, suppressed sexuality, & a standard that can't be lived up to. Moderation, balance, & grace from our Heavenly Father is key.
Overall, the Shiny, Happy People did a good job of highlighting what can happen, but parents' motivation is to protect their kids from the world's harms. I don't appreciate the last episode portraying the so-called "Joshua" generation as wanting world domination. It's unrealistic to say that ultra-conservative Christians can convince secular families to have lots of kids, throw out TV, etc, etc. But it wouldn't hurt to get back to some basic, decent, family values that lead to a healthy society. Just look at the current administration and destructive values to the economy, country, and families. It can lead to no good for any of us.
I hope & pray that homeschooling families that are involved in ultra strict churches/teachings will lighten up, love their children, and prepare them for this world in a healthier way.
Michael Huss June 7, 2023 Reply

I was raised in the Bill Gothard way, as one of 8 adopted children the ideology was preached daily and was a way of life.
Watching Shiny Happy People gave me some kind of relief that I was not the only one who endured.
My wife was blown away, as she had not clearly understood how I was raised.
I watched it twice in a row and cried both times throughout the episodes.
My deconstruction did not take place until my 40's with lots of therapy and discussion, and at 51 I am still in the process.
Donna Stanley-Young June 7, 2023 Reply

Keep speaking up. People are listening. I hope you are all getting the help you deserve.
Sarah Grey June 8, 2023 Reply

I am watching this right now and this is my story. Was anyone else also raised in the Bay Area? I was brought up in a small town called Pacifica which is on the peninsula of California.

I'm 36, have now broken away with my two children and am trying to re-build my life after almost being killed by my husband in 2018.

I would really like to connect with other survivors because I believe there is healing in community.
Debbie June 8, 2023 Reply

As my husband and I were both exposed to Gothard’s teachings, I stayed in an abusive marriage for many years. I continued to struggle with these authoritarian and legalistic teachings as I raised my own children and we have all struggled with our faith as the “umbrella” became not safety but abuse.
I am so grateful that I was later taught that God loves me as an imperfect human individual and has grace for me without that kind of bondage.
Sarah June 8, 2023 Reply

Also, did anyone not attend the Bill Gothard seminars but did attend AWANA? I went to the awana camps and clubs from third grade through high school and it seems VERY similar to BG seminars. I've tried unsuccessfully to connect with other AWANA survivors. where are you all at?
- Jenell June 15, 2023 Reply
  
  I was raised in AWANA, 3rd grade - 9th grade. This was around 1989-1995. (Our family changed churches the following year, which is when I was able to quit). Went to all Wednesday night AWANA's, the week-long summer camps, the Bible verse competitions, and of course, the AWANA Olympics every year, lol. Both of my parents were also AWANA's leaders in our church. How can we best connect to swap stories?
Francis June 8, 2023 Reply

I think there are probably thousands of us with stories that hurt because of this cult.

Part of my story, probably the part that hurts the most, affects the lives of enough other people that I cannot put it in a comment. It is perhaps enough to say that poor handling by Mr.G and the Institute, assisted in creating what is perhaps one of the most bizarre stories yet untold.
It grieves me so much to see so many faces that I recognized in that documentary. I'm so sorry that your worlds hurt so much and I am so glad that you have had an opportunity to speak and tell the world.
Back when I was young and didn't understand many things, I walked off an elevator in Indianapolis and heard what I believe was a episode of domestic violence echoing down the hall. I thought perhaps that it was a family who had come to the institute for help but I was horrified by what I heard. Back then I thought that they might get helped.. I am so sorry for what you experienced dear victim(s).
If only all of the Institute properties could be sold and a trust fund created to fund counseling for those who were harmed.
- Only Me June 12, 2023 Reply
  
  What time frame was this? Did you hear adults fighting? Or did you hear children being beaten?
Melissa June 8, 2023 Reply

I'm shocked after watching all the episodes to find out that it is my life's story.... :( didn't knew that here in Quebec, Canada we had Gothard's teachings too. Been abused in so many ways since my birth from those who were sopposed to protect me. At 40, it's hard to know where to begin my healing journey...
Mitchell Morgan June 9, 2023 Reply

I watched Shiny Happy People and I was a fan of the Duggar TLC programs. Shiny Happy People is really more about Bill Gothard and the IBLP movement than it is about the Duggars, so I believe the show's title is misleading. I attended the Institute In Basic Youth Conflicts back in the 1970's. I realized from watching Shiny Happy People that a lot of my views of marriage and parenting were from what I was taught at IBYC. I completely had forgotten about IBYC and I don't even recall hearing about IBLP when watching 19 Kids and Counting. I am glad there is light being shed on the abuses committed by Gothard and his loyal followers, but I think the show also villifies the Duggars as a whole. We must remember their are still children in this family who have no say on what's presented in the media and how it impacts them.
Daisy Rain Martin June 9, 2023 Reply

I was raised in the Assemblies of God in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I am currently deconstructing--sometimes I think I'm in total demolition mode. As I watched Shiny Happy People, I was stunned to realize how impacted I was by very similar teachings as described in this documentary. My family may not have directly participated in Gothard's programs (even though I immediately recognized Gothard's name) but his principles were 100% repeated and reinforced in my upbringing--from the expectation of female submission via 'God-ordained' male authority to the sexual and spiritual abuse I suffered. I wasn't sure I should watch this--I'm trying to MOVE ON from deconstruction and trying to embrace some semblance of RE-construction. But I have been strangely validated and encouraged by what I've seen in this documentary. I'm certainly not alone--and that's something, isn't it? I can't help but contemplate the notion that any and all forms of conservative evangelicalism is public enemy #1. It is so destructive and has ruined so many lives. It is blatantly bigoted in all its forms and does not honor the entirety of God's creation. I cannot wrap my arms or my heart around a religion where I cannot love all people. Love one another is the simplest and most basic teaching given to us by our Creator. I'll just focus on that. Daisy Rain Martin
- Jenell June 15, 2023 Reply
  
  Assemblies of God churches can definitely have a similar impact. I attended one Gothard seminar when I was already engaged at age 18. The teachings and other members of the Assemblies of God church really did a number on me. I'm grateful that I was able to get out in my 20's and develop my own critical thinking skills.
kevin June 11, 2023 Reply

David, you said:

"David S. Knecht Sr. June 10, 2023Reply
AERT began in 1994 at the IBLP Northwoods Conference Center, but moved to Big Sandy in 2001 when that spacious property became available. The Northwoods was prettier, but Big Sandy was roomier."

David,
I find you interesting. I believe that most of the Gothardite former leaders have gone into the shadows. The analolgy, perhaps being, fleeing to South America after WWII. But you have remained here, seemingly boldly proud of your deeds, as the former leader of the ALERT program.

So, my question to you is the following.

have you:

a) Come to terms with the damage that you did, in being a leader of the quasi military program of the IBLP cult, and repented for the damage that you caused?

or

b) are you in denial for what you have done?
- David S. Knecht Sr. June 11, 2023 Reply
  
  ALERT began when Ron Fuhrman urged Bill Gothard to let him host a few dozen homeschooled boys for adventurous training which would appeal to them and equip them for community service.
  
  I helped Fuhrman create a basic training program on the model which I knew from military experience. It worked pretty well. The ALERT website indicates that the same model is still applied: https://alertacademy.com/about/
  
  We need not be cynical about ALERT. The program promoted virtue, not vice. Shall we repent of virtuous service? Sinners need repentance, but servants let their light so shine before men.
  
  Shall I deny what we should all affirm? Theodore Roosevelt said that credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena. ALERT men struggle in the arena of training for good works. How do our struggles compare? How do our works compare?
  - rob war June 11, 2023 Reply
    
    Yes, we should be cynical about Alert and all the other programs by IBLP. There are testimonies here and elsewhere that this was just another abusive program that leads nowhere. This was not accredited police, fireman or military approved program. One does not need to be in an abusive program like Alert to learn virtue and service. That can be easily done by entering real police, fireman, paramedic and military training programs. You are in denial and obviously too proud to admit this. Your expertise from the military was obviously used because as you have stated, you were never paid for your time in setting this up and running it the first year. The inability to see how you were even used is pathetic.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. June 11, 2023
      
      Doing what is easily done? Are police, military, and firefighter programs easily done? Merely talking about them is easily done!
      
      Other than Rob, has anyone else found such credentialing programs easily done? Rest assured, making good men better is not easily done. If it were, everyone would do it. Yet some good institutions make the attempt.
      
      One of my saddest duties was sending failures away from ALERT Basic. But one of the greatest privileges was watching the occasional loser transform into a winner. That was part of Ron Fuhrman’s original vision.
      
      As for payment, must all things be commercial? Must all be harlots and none lovers? Is anyone paid for posting comments here on RG? Where’s my check?
      
      So why not rock our cynical world with a labor of love? just to shake things up? Soldiers of Christ arise, and put your armor on; strong in the strength which God supplies through his eternal son!
    - kevin June 12, 2023
      
      David said:
      
      "Doing what is easily done? Are police, military, and firefighter programs easily done? Merely talking about them is easily done!
      
      Other than Rob, has anyone else found such credentialing programs easily done?"
      
      David, you're twisting Rob's words. She did not in any way suggest that such programs for police, military or firefighting are easy. She was suggesting that a person can easily choose to go enter an accredited program. You are trying to twist her words and imply that she is saying such training programs themselves are easy. She said nothing of the sort. Hopefully Rob will speak to this, but it seems pretty obvious to me what she meant and not sure why you need to twist her words to try to score points.
      
      For example, several times I have enrolled in very gruelling tests of human endurance. It was very easy to enroll. Sign the form and pay the fee. This does not mean the hell one endures during such challenges is in any way easy. I believe Rob was clearly communicating that a person has better options, with accredited programs for these fields.
    - rob war June 12, 2023
      
      Instead of going to Alert, ATI boys interested in careers in law enforcement, military, firemen/first responders should go to actual programs instead of this made-up program that leads nowhere. There is no reason for Alert except to get more money from ATI parents. This isn't about which is easier or harder but from the comments I've read here, Alert was made harder than the Marines and there is no reason for that. Maybe the boys you yourself rejected from the program ought to come on here and comment about their experiences. Once more, a multi-million-dollar ministry like IBLP should pay people that are helping set up and run this program. The fact that it didn't, and you just went along with it and are proud of that demonstrates how sick this whole thing is. There still is no reason for Alert, except for another abusive program by IBLP.
    - rob war June 14, 2023
      
      Thank you, Kevin, you got exactly what I was saying and David, once again, tried to twist my words. Twisted minds do that and that is nothing new for him.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPeL-XEk_HE
      I think this video from someone that went to and even worked for Alert Academy describes exactly the problems with Alert. What Timothy did bring up was that Alert was an over-correction for boys raised in ATI system, which was they were isolated and soft, no sports etc. and this program was meant to "man up" ATI boys. If ATI boys were actually allowed to participate in team sports etc., which offers discipline, teamwork lessons etc., there would be no need for a para-military academy which leads to no-were. This point has been brought up to David before. Episode 4 which briefly brought up the "Joshua generation" showed videos of Alert training. Juxtapose Alert training videos with ideas of political involvement and one can see how someone could come to the conclusion that Bill Gothard was trying to make a literal army for his political ambitions. I think it was just an over-correction of the problems they were seeing in boys raised under ATI ideas and directives. It is another money grab program; it was abusive, and it leads to nowhere.
  - HV June 14, 2023 Reply
    
    I joined ALERT in 2015 and spent a year on campus going through the programs they offered. I was raised in a Christian homeschool family, that we were not associated with the gothard cult. My parents were very adamant on not following those teachings. I think overall the program was a great idea and ultimately helped me into my career as a Firefighter/Paramedic. But I think the teachings and forced memorization of scripture, and brutal punishments for evening looking in the direction of a female on campus even though we never might have looked at them, was ultimately wrong. I know this, if you anyone ever wants to go to ALERT to gain experience as a in between year after high school, go for it, but be absolutely solid in YOUR own faith, because it will be a spiritual battle for anyone going if you do not believe in the IBLB/ATI teachings.
    
    This documentary series was probably one of the most influenced series we will see, especially the fact that the duggars was on TV and everyone watched them. What Jim and Michelle did was absolutely disgusting and honestly they need to be placed in jail or be charge for hiding evidence, and the disgust they inflicted in their children.
  - Charles Johnson July 13, 2023 Reply
    
    David,
    
    ALERT promoted arrogance and pride by teaching young men that God's grace was earned by their actions. The guy I knew, Kenneth Clark, who got a Personal Excellence Ribbon, was a total hypocrite who would patronize me in front of the leadership, and then when they turned their back, would belittle me about how I couldn't ever do anything right without ever bothering to help me. He even said I would never have a family and threated to hit me in the face with a shovel. Another graduate had to be publicly rebuked twice for angary outbursts, but they didn't send him home because he had all his Ts crossed and Is dotted. Most of the ALERT graduates I knew were jerks who had attitude problems about authority and hated rules. Some of the ones I talked to admitted that most of the guys they went through the program with ended up drug addicts and alcoholics.
    
    I went to Verity Institute with two graduates named Joel Ander and Fox. Their favorite topic of conversation was how much they hated everything about everyone else. Fox even admitted he believed that the other students were mud compared to him spiritually when I presented the verse about Iron Sharpens Iron.
    
    Anders had been a cadre at ALERT. He told students that because nonbelievers didn't like it when Christians started sharing the Gospel without getting to know them first, then don't talk to him about "super spiritual conversations" until they got to know him first. This was the second semester with these students. He said if they want to get to know him, then to come by his room. The only time he came by my room was to tell me that he didn't want me announcing class prayer meetings because he didn't "like feeling obligated to come." Instead of not coming to the prayer meetings, he sabotaged them. He would show up and be visibly angry, clinching a pillow and glaring.
    
    That's the fruits of ALERT, arrogant, angry young men adverted to spirituality who feeling like they are better than other people.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. July 22, 2023
      
      If some ALERT men abused their power, shouldn’t that warn the rest of us? How many of has have sufficient virtue for the power we wield?
      
      Do we parents rule our houses well? Or what about the power of spouses over spouses? Dare we master others before we master ourselves?
    - kevin July 22, 2023
      
      David said:
      
      "If some ALERT men abused their power, shouldn’t that warn the rest of us? How many of has have sufficient virtue for the power we wield?
      
      Do we parents rule our houses well? Or what about the power of spouses over spouses? Dare we master others before we master ourselves?"
      
      Charles Johnson gave some valid criticisms of the ALERT program from his person experience. Instead of taking any of what he said on board, you instead attempt to deflect using "whataboutism"
- Siala Segia Tupu (aka Sarah Johnson) June 13, 2023 Reply
  
  Right on with this, thank you for putting it so well.
Ann June 11, 2023 Reply

Watching this show there were so many red flags of abuse by "Jim Bob" Dugger (seriously, what adult man goes by "Jim Bob"??? Michelle was just a vessel to populate like thinkers, but fortunately some of the kids were smart enough to get out, but unfortunately not before they were utterly sexually abused by at least one person. What scares me the most is the crazy right-wing extermists in our government system think like this - women are lower class citizens, only here to procreate the earth with like-minded people. Anyone who doesn't see what is happening before our eyes is insane. It is how the Holocust started, and it is coming here to America in many forms.
- David S. Knecht Sr. June 11, 2023 Reply
  
  We believe in freedom of association. Sneering Yankees need not keep company with us southerners who retain lifelong nicknames. If we would avoid a holocaust, shouldn't we begin by withholding contempt from neighbors who are different from us? Doesn’t contempt breed atrocity?
  
  Extremists can indeed be dangerous. Aren’t crazy left-wing extremists as dangerous as those on the right? Was Stalin milder than Hitler? Or Robespierre than Napoleon?
- JM June 26, 2023 Reply
  
  That is one HECK of a slanderous statement. Again, I'm at a lost to believe the moderators are okay with this? Where are they? Asleep at the weel?
esbee June 11, 2023 Reply

i find the comments that minimize the damage done by iblp----they say they attended these conferences and used only what was applicable for their christian life and ignored the rest. good for them---they were lucky or whatever -

but ever since finding this site decade ago and studying all the stories of adversity and abuse and then reading the other side that supports patriarchy/complementarian teachings has led to this conclusion ---

1--Under patriarchal or complementarian teachings a loving christian man will continue to be a loving christian man towards wife family and others.

2--Under patriarchal or complementarian teachings an abusive man uses scripture to justify his abuse towards wife, family and others.

3--Under egalitarian or mutual teachings a loving christian man will continue to be a loving christian man towards wife family and others.

4--Under egalitarian or mutual teachings an abusive man has no excuses ! The door that justifies his abuse towards wife family and others is SHUT! Because both spouses are equal under the Lordship of Christ who is the only authority in marriage with each spouse having equal say and mutual submission towards one another.
Kristina June 12, 2023 Reply

It has taken me a while to find your powerful website. This new documentary prompted me to dig further, and you have provided an incredible resource for those of use who survived Gothard's cult.

I'm a 50+ year old woman who was raised under BYC's teachings and a bit of ATI in its early years. By God's grace or stumbling through a series of painful events, I got out. Won't go into the hell it all created as our family evolved into its own tiny cult, but this documentary helped solve a mystery that has troubled me for nearly 20 years.

The documentary and most of the focus on this website, and others, has been IBLP and ATI as a homeschooling curriculum. For years I've been trying to figure out why what I was raised under (70's and 80's) was called "Basic Youth Conflicts." I knew there was a common link with Gothard, but why were the names different?

Because of the focus of the documentary on the 2000's and beyond, I am sickened to discover that the sexual sins/assaults were happening during the 70's! And stomach turning to realize that a psychologist/therapist, Dr. Gary Smalley (whom my father turned to during the very early 80's for help with depression), was part of ongoing and utterly feckless "interventions" with BG and his brother, only to discover that 20 years later, it's all happening to another generation of teens! I want to scream from a mountain top!

It has taken me until last year to finally seek out therapy for the deep trauma that happened to myself and my siblings. The processes of figuring out which part of my faith I can hold on to; which parts of Scripture I can trust... all because the evil this man taught to our parents, for so many years.
- kevin June 12, 2023 Reply
  
  Hi Kristina.
  
  "This new documentary prompted me to dig further, and you have provided an incredible resource for those of use who survived Gothard's cult."
  
  I'm glad that the docuseries helped you and really glad that you found Recovering Grace. I hope that this website can be a part of your journey to recovery.
  
  I've been here participating on this website for about 10 years and was under the impression that most of the ex-IBLP cult members had been reached by now. But, the huge response of the docuseries has made it clear that many former members are just being reached now, with the large reach of Amazon.
  
  "And stomach turning to realize that a psychologist/therapist, Dr. Gary Smalley (whom my father turned to during the very early 80's for help with depression), was part of ongoing and utterly feckless "interventions" with BG"
  
  For my own 2 cents worth, my impression is that Gary Smalley is a decent guy. He was the one who called Gothard out on bad behavior in the 70s, which eventually led to confrontation and accountability, at least what was supposed to be accountability. Gary's confronting Gothard, along with other men confronting him, ultimately led to his resignation in 1980. This turned out to be a joke, as Gothard returned to the board 17 days later and kicked out all who were not loyal to him. Anyway, you can read all about that on RG if you are interested. Perhaps Gary should have been more public against Gothard in what he witnessed, but it is hard to judge such things in hindsight.
  
  "It has taken me until last year to finally seek out therapy for the deep trauma that happened to myself and my siblings. The processes of figuring out which part of my faith I can hold on to; which parts of Scripture I can trust... all because the evil this man taught to our parents, for so many years."
  
  Best of luck with your therapy and working things out. I believe that here on RG that you will find many individuals who have dealt with the type of process that you are dealing with. From my observations, it may take years to deconstruct/dissentangle the Gothard/IBLP teachings. Praying for you! :)
Jeanne June 13, 2023 Reply

I also went to one IBLP seminar in the middle 80s as a teenager. I remember one thing he said that was off. He said that he could tell if a woman was "rebellious by the way she wore her eye makeup." At that point, I didn't realise that his teachings would impact my early 20s.

Thankfully I was able to go to a college of my choice and choose my major for both under graduate and graduate degrees. My extended family and parents were very pro education.

His teachings were used to keep me in subjugation to authority. I won't say submission because it wasn't submission. My "authority" was very controlling, and still is even today. I privately started questioning his teachings and decided to completely reject them. I couldn't openly reject them because I would be labeled as a rebel. There's more to the story, but like some of the other posts, I am unable to share the details because other people would be hurt.

Even today, many years later, I am still deconstructing his bad teachings. My husband has been helpful in doing that since he never went to an IBLP seminar. Moving on has been difficult because I don't feel free to talk about it with anyone in my family. Maybe one day we can talk about it and bring healing, but I am not holding my breath on it. I am thankful that Jesus has been with me though this process. Thanks also to RG, Rob War, Kevin, Esbee, and others who have helped with this process.
- rob war June 13, 2023 Reply
  
  Jeannne,
  
  All I can say is "You go girl!" As the Katy Perry song says, you went from zero to your own hero. Thank-you for your kind words. You got this!
  - Jeanne June 13, 2023 Reply
    
    Thanks.
Carol June 14, 2023 Reply

Our Lord told us there would be false prophets.

I was raised in the UMC during childhood. But when I went to college, I found a church that I could walk to because I didn't have a car.

While watching Shiny Happy People, my skin crawled, because the new church I was attending at college had the same earmarks as IBLC. As a very young woman, I believed I should hang in there and allow the Lord work through me. I didn't have the discernment to see the clues.

Every visit I made to that church required a "dressing down" of every aspect of me, by the Pastor, his Wife, and the Elders. That male authority thing that was WAY out of the bounds of Biblical scripture. This went on for 8 weeks until the Pastor asked me to his office, shut the door then tried to molested me to save my soul. I ran out of the office where his wife was standing and waiting 4 feet outside the door. Pretty sick.....I learned the following Sunday that the only African American congregant was punished by the church for the molestation, although he was still allowed to perform all their plumbing and construction work for free.

I pray for all who have suffered years of IBLC abuse. I cannot imagine suffering a whole life in that nightmare. God Bless.
Tori June 16, 2023 Reply

Back in the 70s "Basic Youth" (as it was termed in my church) was only $10 and then was free for alumni thereafter. I went every summer with my youth group and then did the winter sessions, as well.

I remember playing the games during youth group (I was 11.). Before the game that one gal mentioned in the documentary, there was also a flash card game with all the "character qualities." My pastor would read the definition and the first to say the correct character quality would get a point. Man, we kids had them memorized in no time. Later they'd publish the character qualities in these volumes of beautifully illustrated books that resembled encyclopedias. They laid on our coffee table along with a big ornate Bible.

The IBYC/IBLP loomed large in our church (my childhood church; many of my family still go there) as still do the building blocks of the belief system taught there. I don't know how much the elder board knows about Gothard. They stopped doing seminars here years and years ago so I think he was forgotten. But the seeds still scattered, took root and reproduced. The mind set still remains even if folks don't know the origin.

The thing that gets me is how deeply ingrained that theology is in someone like me, a person who sought to undo the dogma and false teachings -- and that's even after completing a biblical studies minor (specialised in inductive studies) and personally debunking what my heart had already said was a pile of poo. The thing is, untwisting the horrible corruption of scripture is much easier than shaking the psychological, emotional and spiritual poison that's already caused damage. The internal patterns of shame and way it triggers is much more difficult, particularly in light of the far flung wreckage and how trauma and TBI (from abuse) have forever altered my path. No matter how much one heals, sometimes there are actual medical conditions that cannot be undone.

I wish there was a way to quantify the collective damage and do a class action law suit, similar to environmental lawyers, those who took down big tobacco, or those taking on big pharma.That "ministry" should be shuttered and that $90 million should not be left to anyone but survivors. Their tax exempt status (and ability to receive more donations that profit the organization) should be revoked. I'm not about vengeance, but containment and eradication of this malarkey. Until the org gets hit and hit hard, they'll continue forward.

It's so ingrained in me to be vague, I realized I didn't mention some of the horrific dysfunction in the families and organization of my childhood/early adulthood church:

- the way we teen girls were shamed for SO MUCH (as if it was our fault our bodies changed),

- the way abuse was overlooked,

- the way church leadership chose to "counsel" predators who'd committed sexual crimes (Including one father who sexually abused -- raped -- his daughter. He remained in the home, swore he was on the straight & narrow and continued abusing her while lying to the pastor. She divulged to my foster sister that nothing changed, then committed suicide later that night. The father and mother were publicly embraced as grieving parents whose child had "lost her way."),

- the way they made kids publicly confess to their group of peers if they were "impure" (kissing was "impure") and placed the onus on the girl for tempting the boy (she was slut shamed while the boy got admiration from other boys),

- the way they threatened a youth leader who was going to report a rape as a mandatory reporter is supposed to do.

Just so, so much.
kevin June 16, 2023 Reply

There is a another powerful documentary coming out, which has been in the works for 4 years. This has been produced over the past 4 years and gives a platform to the women who were Bill Gothard's victims. I am so glad to see that they are speaking their truth!

I would recommend watching the 8 minute trailer. It appears to be very professionally done.

https://untilthetruth.com/
- rob war June 17, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank-you. All I can say is wow, this is going to be very powerful. I am not sure how anyone will be able to watch this and still then stay "neutral". Likewise, I am not sure how Bill' hand full of defenders left can still claim that all these people are lying, that the dropped lawsuits against Bill proved they are lying, and this is all made up. Praying for all those that are part of this project.
- Sophie L. June 19, 2023 Reply
  
  I saw the trailer. Looks like it will be powerful, however I have to disagree with the assertion that “ every white evangelical church in America has been influenced by Gotgard’s teaching.” I know for a fact that this is untrue, as many, many American churches have actively pushed back against this false gospel and philosophy pushed by Gothard and others.
  
  It’s a shame that a documentary focused on healing from this type of trauma I would push this idea, because it creates blanket distrust of ANY church.
- Sheryl Roberts July 1, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank you, Kevin, for bringing this to our attention. I was parenting my 10 children in the Quiverfull movement (though not specifically Gothard), but I saw many of the same problems in our Church including abuse in the name of God. Now we have left the movement, the Protestant Church (we are now gratefully Catholic), and I went back to get my Master's in Mental Health Counseling to help those still trapped. I specialize in trauma and have many clients who experienced sexual trauma at the hands of authority figures in their lives (brothers, grandfathers, priests, pastors). My website is https://robertscounseling.org/ for anyone in Colorado, Wyoming or in the military who would like to reach out to me. My methods of therapy are Brainspotting and Internal Family Systems- both are great for treating trauma. There is healing!
- Aaron September 8, 2023 Reply
  
  I watched that trailer and nearly came to tears. I haven't watched Shiny Happy People yet, but I will. I wasn't exposed to anything regarding IBLP or ATI growing up. My mom would not have allowed it.
kevin June 19, 2023 Reply

Hi Rob.

I pulled the conversation over the left, as it gets hard to continue to track when the text gets so skinny on the right column.

“Thank you, Kevin, you got exactly what I was saying and David, once again, tried to twist my words. Twisted minds do that and that is nothing new for him.”

Yes, David loves to twist words and take them out of context. Apparently, he learned very well from his guru/messiah, Mr. Gothard, the king of proof texting and twisting meanings.

“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPeL-XEk_HE
I think this video from someone that went to and even worked for Alert Academy describes exactly the problems with Alert. What Timothy did bring up was that Alert was an over-correction for boys raised in ATI system, which was they were isolated and soft, no sports etc. and this program was meant to "man up" ATI boys”

Thanks for the link. I watched it. I try to watch all the interviews of the former students. I agree with you on what Alert was. From my obsevation, the ATI boys were not allowed to participate in team sports. There was fear that it would cause wordly influence. As a result, there was a huge gap in physical coordination, compared to their peers. I recall an ultimate frisbee game of dads vs young men. The young men should have destroyed us. But, the dads won so easily it was embarrassing. It was clear that these boys had been deprived of normal physical activities, like frisbee, in order to keep them “protected”. So, it makes sense that Alert was an attempt to help with this. But, verbally abusing young men and forcing them to carry large logs up hills, forcing them to keep drilling despite serious injuries, as has been reported, well, that might help boost the confidence of some, but many clearly were scarred by the experience. Does it make them into “men”. Of course not. How ridiculous. If they come out the other end successfully it might be a boost to their confidence. On the other hand, if they fail, then they get labelled a “loser”, to use David’s words. Many have reported this to be extremely damaging. There are better ways to help young men build their self-confidence, which does not involve verbal and physical abuse. It is especially disturbing to hear how many of the young men were forced into the program against their will.
M. Dessell Benton June 22, 2023 Reply

This was hard to watch as my sister was one of the first young women caught in Gothard's net. Her beauty and vivacious spirit meant she quickly became his secretary at headquarters,long before he was into the homeschooling market. She stands next to him in that creepy throne chair where he is surrounded by women in long dresses (he just referred to those dresses as formal wear at that time; he hadn't figured out yet how far the human spirit would condone control). He did understand then, long before social media, that a way to control people is to make them feel better than others (more enlightened, more Godly, more in touch, or better informed even if the "information" is twisted and untrue). He understood that if you can get people to sacrifice something, they're more likely to believe and follow you to avoid accepting that they sacrificed in vain. He understood the marketing power of "new and better," even if the new was really just the same old mix of a little truth in with a pack of lies. He understood the power of pitting people against each other, especially powerful when employed with shame and deprivation and extra powerful when joined with unfulfilled sexuality and religious zeal. He was and is nothing more than a player, and sometimes accepting that you were played is the only way out. It was so hard for my sister to accept the additional shame of realizing she was part of something seriously evil. She was duped because she was young, naive, earnest, kind, and good. She was a target that Gothard hit because he wanted to use her vivacious, magnetic personality to trap others.I am so glad she got out for a few years before she died of cancer, a disease the stress of living a secret life with this man likely caused. I am also glad I don't have to look him in the face ever again. He took my sister from me in every way.
- Larne Gabriel June 23, 2023 Reply
  
  Thank you for your heart felt words Mrs. Benton. I couldn't agree more!
rob war June 23, 2023 Reply

thank-you Kevin. I remember from attending IBYC basic long ago that Bill was very much against sports, either going to sport events or doing sports which he saw as "unspiritual". We see this also documented in Jinger's book where she felt guilty for playing kick ball/field hockey with her siblings instead of studying the bible. I think a lot of ATI students raised in this schlock felt the same way. Not only did these ideas hurt boys, but I would think athletic girls were likewise tortured with the no sports attitude of Bill Gothard. (I had a daughter that did travel soccer). Sadly, homeschool teams can easily be put together and sponsored by a church. One of my sons played a soccer team made up of homeschool boys in CYO league and that team was pretty good. I do realize not all ATI families followed no sports ideas but too many did to the detriment of their children.
Jeanne June 24, 2023 Reply

I heard this quote from my Bible reading plan this week. It was such a blessing.

Following rules is a guilt trip; following Jesus is a grace trip. And when you walk in His grace, you'll find yourself speaking grace to others. People will appreciate it. Colossians 4 devotional, Kris Langham in Through the Word Bible App.

So many people that followed BG and his teachings were heavy on the rules and controlling the outward appearance. There was very little true grace. No wonder so many people that grew up under that teaching have had to rebuild what they believe about Jesus.
Rob war June 24, 2023 Reply

David,
It would be helpful if you could site the CS Lewis quote. You did put quotes around it, so it is unclear if this is your paraphrase of him or not.
CS Lewis spent most of his life as a single man so his scenario is a bit phony actually. There is nothing in the Bible that says if there is a disagreement between souses, that the husband always rules. Nothing. Now maybe that is how you manage your relationship with your wife but real healthy marriages are a give and take between both spouses, not the husband always rules and his word is final. Abraham was told by God to listen to Sarah even though he disagreed with her. It is too easy for single guys like Bill Gothard and even CS Lewis (for most of his life) to come up with top heavy rules of the man always being the final boss. Real marriages don’t work that way unless you are the Duggars with their phony show and rigid roll playing rules. If a spouse feels very strongly about something, the other spouse should be considerate of those strong feelings and ideas. That’s what real spouses do and that is what healthy marriages are like.
- David S. Knecht Sr. June 25, 2023 Reply
  
  C.S. Lewis, St. Paul, and St. Peter stand corrected. Expect no more interference from them. Too bad they knew so much about role-playing rules, and so little about real spouses and healthy marriages.
  
  If only Sarah did not “obey Abraham, calling him Lord.” If only she knew more about real spouses and healthy marriages. Too bad for her chaste conversation coupled with fear. What a loser. She should have been more realistic.
  - Rob war June 25, 2023 Reply
    
    You can site the source of the CS Lewis quote. St Paul and ST Peter did not say that if there is a spousal disagreement, that the man’s word is the final choice. That is not what their passages are about. Just reading the Genesis narratives of Abraham and Sarah does not fit how you are trying to interpret and abuse those NT passages. Quit twisting things around. If some husband needs to demand submission from his wife, he is not following a whole bunch of other verses that tell him to love and serve his wife. And I truly feel sorry for you wife. That is the problem with the patriarchy you follow, it is one sided, imbalanced and false and the marriages stuck in it are lost unhappy.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. June 25, 2023
      
      In Mere Christianity, Lewis had a chapter about Christian marriage. His words on this topic are widely known and easily retrieved from the internet.
      
      Meanwhile, please be more discreet about your jealousy of my wife. It is a familiar sentiment for more than four decades, but isn't it a little embarrassing to admit in public?
    - rob war June 26, 2023
      
      sick and disturbed David, nothing could be further from the truth.
Josh June 26, 2023 Reply

My takeaway from reading a lot of these comments is just how hard it is for so many people to free themselves from fundamentalism. I see a lot of it in these threads. People want to defend parts of the teachings, or say that its not as bad as it seems, or that we shouldn't paint all conservative Christians with the same brush. I spent 18 years in ATI and then many more trying to be a 'more progressive christian'. Here is my advice, leave it all behind completely. That will mean opening your mind to things that make you uncomfortable, deeply examining your fears, seeking counseling and honest friends that will help you recognize how the deep-seated sense of impurity and shame plays out in your life today. Non-gothard conservative christianity is only slightly less damaging than Gothard's insane teachings. It still teaches us that we have a fallen nature and are fundamentally separated from God. That we are going to hell unless we follow the teachings of the bible...however that is currently being interpreted. It is all a fear-based tool of control and robs us of the real joy of being human. Real grace lies in an experiential understanding that we are all an inseparably part of the indivisible divine love that makes our hearts beat and flowers bloom (life force). This fact predates language and so is not subject to your book, prayers, thoughts, or teachings. The real challenge for us is to overcome our neurotic moral dualism (knowledge of good/evil - og curse) and reunite with the divine truth that all is ultimately one! You can't have light without dark. It is such a simple and obvious truth that we have overlooked for so long. So stop running around trying to convince God and others that you are on the right team and start experiencing the transformative power of real faith, grace, and love. Love, Serve, Remember.
- David S. Knecht Sr. July 1, 2023 Reply
  
  As we see above the strait gate and narrow way is too stressful, just as Jesus warned. Heathenism has much more grace; there's no need for camels to squeeze through those tight openings. Was John Lennon right? Do we just need a more vivid imagination? Isn't that where the transformative power resides?
  
  —Uncle Screwtape
- JM July 14, 2023 Reply
  
  If that was your experience, I, and so many other fundamentalist Christians, will stand together and mourn with you.
  
  The purpose is not, nor has ever truly been, that you have to be on the right team, whatever that is. The purpose in all things has always been evangelism of the lost and education and edification of the saints.
  
  We don't apologize for preaching repentance. The Bible requires it, but we can get off the rails if we're not careful.
  
  But look, we're dealing with a situation where the consequences are potentially hellfire. That is serious. We have to be serious about it. If that makes us fear-mongers, I'm sorry. I can't think of anything greater to be fearful of. Yes, we will disagree on things. But we can't compromise on the Gospel itself. It is the most precious thing we were ever given as a human race. It is worth defending, from attacks both outside and in.
  
  This is something basic that we can all share a platform with. You don't have to independent fundamental (temperamental) Baptist to see this. My personal of friends includes Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, and Lutherans, to name a few. We don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but we all agree on the basics of salvation, at least those of us in my circle do.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023 Reply
    
    Brother, if you need one more Lutheran to round out your quota of friends, I volunteer for the position.
    
    God's team has manifold branches from one Vine; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
- Rebecca August 9, 2023 Reply
  
  it is hard to leave fundamentalism. The church I grew up and was “Fundy-light” but the teachings were traumatizing. gothard just built upon “turn or burn“ and hell-based theology that church leaders have long been used to manipulate people and exert control. Jesus and God love you, but if you don’t believe in a particular way, off to hell you go. actually, there is very little about hell in the Bible at all. Use of hell as a motivator interview at only questions are saved create an environment that is manipulative and toxic, built on fear. The thing I least understand are the attempts to control peoples’ sexuality. All of the fear-based teachings really strike me as emerging from mental illness. it actually is very interesting to read the Bible through the lens of mental illness.
Stephanie Miller June 29, 2023 Reply

Wow this all made sense to all the abuse I went through
I was young and didn't realize til now
I shoved the abuse in a very dark place and it all came back after the movie wow yes that me too Steph Miller
Shery Roberts July 1, 2023 Reply

After watching Shiny, Happy People and reading the comments on this website, I have to make some observations. First, I came into the Quiverfull movement (a broader category with many of the same teachings as Gothard) in 1989 when I married into a family that was beginning to live this out. My husband and I dived full force into this teaching for around 13 years and less so for another 10 years and now we have, gratefully, moved on. I have concluded that after facing the facts of the "fruit" of this movement, you have a few choices:

1) Status quo- defend what you hear and stay in the movement
2) Leave the movement but stay a Conservative Protestant
3) Leave the Christian faith altogether and move to a "none" or to a more broad "Spiritual" understanding of life
4) Realize that there still is a God of the Universe and an authority structure that he has established in the ancient church (think Catholic or Orthodox). This answers the question of who has the authority to interpret scripture. Avoids the trap of Personality cults that plagues all corners of Protestantism. https://www.catholic.com/tract/whats-your-authority
- rob war July 1, 2023 Reply
  
  You are not the only one here that has gone to the Catholic Church. This includes the liturgy as well as early Church fathers. There is no comparison.
- JM July 14, 2023 Reply
  
  Well, those other churches (Catholic and Orthodox, Anglican, etc.) do not actually escape the Personality cults you try to avoid. You may just be trading them for another. (i. e. The Pope, the Church Fathers, certain priests, mystics, etc.)
  
  Let's be careful not to jump out of the frying pan into another frying pan just because the stove isn't on. It's only better in that you're not burning. But you're not cooking or getting anything done better, either.
David S. Knecht Sr. July 1, 2023 Reply

JM is correct on 6/26 above. The political founding of American states was libertarian. Pulitzer prize winner Bernard Bailyn showed that libertarian ideas from men like John Locke were the founding philosophy. Only tyrants are threatened by libertarians. Libertarian homeschoolers don't break bones; we leave that task to sticks and stones.
rob war July 5, 2023 Reply

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article276970278.html

Is it any wonder why Anna Duggar is in the situation that she is in. With a father like this, preaching sick and racist and historically false ideas, it is not hard to see why she ended up with Josh and not able to leave. Totally outrageous.
- Jeanne July 5, 2023 Reply
  
  Utterly outrageous. Anna's father should be called out for that kind of teaching. That was the kind of rhetoric that slave owners used to justify keeping slaves.
David S. Knecht Sr. July 9, 2023 Reply

Let’s answer the outrage expressed on 7/5 above. By what rhetoric did Philemon justify keeping Onesimus? What rhetoric do we all use to justify our sins? We are never more creative than when we rationalize.

But was it true? Did Christian masters evangelize their slaves as Mike Keller said? Is it improbable? It happened even in Uncle Tom's Cabin, which was abolitionist fiction!

How much did Yankee merchants evangelize which they imported slaves from west Africa? too little or too much? Was keeping slaves worse than importing slaves? or trading New England rum for them? or slave-trade financing by New York banks? Is our outrage too selective? More outrage is documented here: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2002/02/gail-jarvis/yankees-and-slavery/
- rob war July 9, 2023 Reply
  
  Hot news flash, the Civil War ended a long time ago. You seem to like to bring it up and have done so a couple times now. No one here but you are trying to make up some conflict between the North and South. The Civil War is over.
  If you have paid attention to those that bring up CRT and the 1619 project, you would already know that slavery did start in the Northern colonies from Calvinist Dutch traders that bought slaves from Muslims and even a couple of the big luminaries of the Great Awakening own slaves themselves. Jonathan Edwards owned slaves. George Whitfield was the reason the State of Georgia became a slave state. But none of this really has anything to do with what Anna Duggar's father said as a guest speaker that even that church, run by a IBLP grad and son-in-law, which had to remove and apologize for.
  There is no excuse for his comments. They were racist and historically false. They just show the depth of idiocy that comes from Gotharites, of which all of them are. Philemon was about all of us being equal before God and St. Paul telling Philemon to take his former run-away slave back as a brother in Christ. Maybe you ought to read Dr. Feser's great book "All One in Christ" which condemns racism as well as CRT. Nothing you said or brought up answered what this diluted man said. And finally, the Civil War is over, stop bringing it up.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023 Reply
    
    Who said anything about war? Our topic was not war, but slavery.
    
    So may we please have a definition of racism? Is it racist when a preacher credits God for abolishing American slavery in the 19th Century? If God intervened to end Egyptian slavery of Hebrews, might he also intervene to end American slavery of negroes? Is God also racist?
    
    God intervened, but sinful men intervened poorly. Isn’t it a shame that we Americans had no Christian statesman like Wilberforce to lead us charitably and peacefully? More people would be shiny and happy!
    - rob war July 15, 2023
      
      stop playing games here. If you can't see what is wrong with what Anna Duggar's father said and need it explained to you, you are actually as racist as he is. Since you recently stated and implied everything here is rumors and lies, why are you still here causing problems and mocking? Stop trolling and move on with your life.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 15, 2023 Reply
    
    Indeed, St. Paul had plenty to say about relations between slaves and masters. What did he say? Was he racist?
    - rob war July 15, 2023
      
      this is garbage David,
      
      St. Paul said this in Galatians 3:28
      "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
      
      St. John Chrysostom said this about slavery:
      " Slavery is the fruit of covetousness, of degradation of savagery, the fruit of sin and of human rebellion against our true Father."
      
      St. Gregary of Nyssa said this about slavery:
      " You condemn a person to slavery whose nature is free and independent, and you make law opposed to God and contrary to his natural law... Slavery is resistance to and rejection of His divine precepts."
      
      You need to take your sick and twisted views elsewhere. They are racist.
David S. Knecht Sr. July 16, 2023 Reply

Galatians 3:28 was quoted above. Was that the only thing St. Paul said about slaves? Did he not also issue commands to both Christian masters and Christian slaves? What did he command?

Didn't he also warn that our worst slavery was to our own sin (Romans 6)? Didn't Paul's commands apply to masters and slaves of identical race? Was that rare? Apostolic commands matter.
- rob war July 18, 2023 Reply
  
  The greatest miracles of the OT was the liberation of the Jews from slavery in Egypt. How many more verses do you really need here? Romans 6 is not a justification of slavery like you are trying to twist it. In actual history, whenever Christianity took hold of society, slavery disappeared and became non-existent. Following a twisted teacher like Bill Gothard has caused this sort of twisted thinking and use of scripture. The Museum of the Bible features what is called the slave Bible which is a perverted bible used by slave owners to justify slavery to their slaves and took out ALL verses and references against slavery. It is sick and shame on them for featuring it. Your guru in Bill has twisted your mind. Shame on you.
  You answer this, is slavery wrong? yes or no?
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 22, 2023 Reply
    
    On 7/18 above, we read four snarling forms of “twist.” That is fierce. May we see evidence for even one twist out of four? Indeed, OT Jews escaped slavery in Egypt. Yet according to Wikipedia, their descendants enslaved other Jews: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery. Is Wikipedia also twisted?
    
    Shall we Christians declare yes-or-no opinions about slavery? Neither Christ nor his apostles limited themselves to one-syllable words; nor should we. Christians needed many centuries to hammer out a consensus about slavery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery
    
    Let us defer to better opinions than ours. Such opinions are expressed above. Did we notice the agreement between Chrysostom, Gregory, and Keller? All three addressed slavery and none favored it. They stayed within Christian consensus. So do I. Why dispense shame on men who agree with Christ and his Church?
    - Rob war July 25, 2023
      
      You can’t answer the question obviously because you believe slavery is justified. Reread the OT David and you will see that the so called slavery of the OT was a limited servitude for debts and those under it had right and protections and a seven year limit. Slaves were freed if they were hurt and harmed by their masters. You want to sneer at a couple of early church fathers that directly condemned slavery, why don’t you sneer at the seven papal bulls that directly condemned slavery, especially those if African and Native Americans were involved starting in 1435 and continuing in 1537, q 1639, 1741, 1839, 1888 and 1890. From Genesis, God gave Adam dominion over animals. God didn’t say man could have dominion over other men, women and children. This was brought up in one of the Papal bulls I read. But even more recently, why don’t you see the Sound of Freedom which is about slavery and human trafficking of children. All you tried to do is twist and wiggle out of the question and it is obviously where you stand inside yourself on this issue and that is pretty sick.
Jane July 19, 2023 Reply

Thank you for this documentary. I grew up in a cult with almost the same beliefs. It's nice to know we are not alone.
David S. Knecht Sr. July 22, 2023 Reply

On 7/22 above, brother Kevin objected to my comment about ALERT, supposedly because another man had more reliable personal experience than mine. My 1994-1995 experience with ALERT is outdated, but does Kevin have better personal experience to compare? Otherwise, we have only accusers and accused, without a neutral arbiter. What good does that do?

Might we heed Jordan Peterson’s Rule #6? Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world.

Meanwhile, what is whataboutism? Is that only an answer we would rather not answer?
- rob war July 25, 2023 Reply
  
  Why don't you watch this video from ex-ATI/IBLP when they discuss the abuse that was going on in Alert https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK60i6OBnyE
  - David S. Knecht Sr. July 29, 2023 Reply
    
    That video was quite a diatribe. Most of it seemed silly, but resentment ran deep. ALERT is voluntary (and expensive). Why such resentment against one’s own choice? Did the grumblers succeed at ALERT? or fail? Do we resent our failures because we hate the sting of defeat?
    
    One silly part was the dark mutterings about ALERT’s ambition for global military tyranny. Do we dread global military tyranny from the Salvation Army? Are they also dangerous and paramilitary? Another complaint was against intense physical conditioning and sleep deprivation. ALERT PT was intense, but leaders suffered with their men. Which activity makes men “strong to serve?” does leisure? or push-ups? As for sleep deprivation, sleep is overrated.
    
    A final complaint was that ALERT service projects generated too much good will toward IBLP. Indeed they did. Do we need more good will? or less?
kevin July 27, 2023 Reply

Hi Rob.

You said to David:

“Why don't you watch this video from ex-ATI/IBLP when they discuss the abuse that was going on in Alert"

That is a very good question. Unfortunately, over the past several years, we have observed a pattern. It is a hard thing for a leader to admit that they were instrumental in a program that did severe harm. Although it is a cowardice cop out, it is much easier for said individuals to attack and marginalize the victims. They call them “disgruntled students” or “women seeking a big pay day”. By marginalizing those who choose to share their story, they avoid accountability, at least in their own little minds.

I’m just so glad that the documentary is helping to shine sunlight on these despicable individuals! What we have recently witnessed is that it has empowered even more individuals to share their story. May the sunlight continue to shine on their deeds!
- rob war August 2, 2023 Reply
  
  Amen! It is called gaslighting at its finest. Davey Jackson brought up cases of individuals that were seriously hurt during the training of Alert and were ignored instead of going and seeking medical attention. The whole series by Davey Jackson and Brice are worth watching. Chad Harris from Shiney Happy People had a very good interview with a fellow atheist blogger, (he is now an atheist himself) that he has the link to on his Tik Tok channel that is also very good. Chad did go through Alert. He admits that he wasn't physically prepared for it. He was not someone that did sports and was not someone even oriented for sports. He basically failed all their physical tests, and he was told that he failed because he wasn't "spiritual enough". The interview is worth listening to and what is so sad is that the atheist interviewing Chad had more empathy and understanding for Chad than what someone like David is demonstrating here towards all the different victims of Bill Gothard and his teachings.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. August 6, 2023 Reply
    
    Was our interviewer an atheist? The atheist must believe in nothing except unbelief. That would explain his labeling. To the atheist, following Christ is cult. How many times did we hear the four-letter c-word? Speaking of words, what is gaslighting? Here is what it does not mean: gaslighting is not a correct term for truth which I dislike. When I dislike truth, the problem lies with me, not with truth.
    
    We are commanded to be wise as serpents. While I whitewash Aunt Polly's fence, I may complain that Tom Sawyer abused my confidence. But I am also admitting I was a gullible sucker who deserved the dreary chore I got.
    
    When terms like "abuse" and “victim” mean only "what I freely choose," do they mean anything at all?
    - Mark August 15, 2023
      
      David, who freely chose what? Gothard's teaching put everyone under authority. No one is free under Gothard. There is always someone to obey, meaning, a lack of free choice.
      
      When people do not have a free choice, then "abuse" and "victim" are in play. Gothard's teachings were abusive and created victims, because, maybe people like you got to "freely choose" Gothard, but I was born into a fundamentalist family and God didn't ask me to choose my parents. They bought into teachings similar to Gothard and I learned a painful lesson that taking a stand against an abuser when one is eight years old does nothing except cause extreme physical and emotional pain.
      
      Gaslighting is also in play. I've read a few of his materials. They take an ordinary situation - for example a mother confronting a youth pastor - and then uses some bizarre situation to flip the script so that the mother is in the wrong and the youth pastor is justified. This is definitionally gaslighting. It's designed to sew the seeds of shame and doubt for taking what are appropriate steps and instead create a narrative where any questioning of authority is inappropriate.
      
      In our Western society, many people come pre-groomed by our cultural shaming, so cults capitalize on the fact that people can be coerced by shame manipulation. Many people call it "church", thinking that they need the external shame manipulation to obey God.
rob war August 3, 2023 Reply

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2023/08/do-i-always-have-to-smile-c-s-lewis-and-shiny-happy-people/
Very interesting article about Bill's constant harping on smiling all the time to give a "good report". Another bad fruit from his teachings and ideas.
- David S. Knecht Sr. August 12, 2023 Reply
  
  Dr. Wyma objected to Gothard’s “requirement” for good cheer. Yet how would Gothard enforce any requirement? Dr. Wyma knows that Gothard is a teacher, just as she herself is.
  
  What requirements do Dr. Wyma enforce on her alumni? exactly zero. How then can they be requirements? Like the pirate code, they are “more like guidelines.”
  - rob war August 12, 2023 Reply
    
    There is a big difference between just teaching as a professor and being an ATI student working at the so called training centers that really were just slave labor camps for IBLP and Bill and being told and having it enforced to constantly "smile" in order to give a "good report". This was all for the benefit of Bill Gothard, so that he and IBLP would look good because all one sees are Shiny Happy People. It is called being phony. St. Mother Theresa of Calcutta smiled a lot. She called it the first step of showing love to others. It had nothing to do with how she felt emotionally inside. Smiling to her was about others and showing love. Smilting to Bill Gothard was about him and putting out there a "good report". It is phony and in the long run people see through it. Jinger wrote about this in her book. Many others have testified about this pressure to constantly smile here as well as elsewhere all over the place. You just don't again what to look at these comments. Smiling for Bill and IBLP was not about showing love to others. It was self- focus and selfish and that is why Amazon named their series which you obviously have not watch Shiny Happy People.
    - David S. Knecht Sr. August 12, 2023
      
      Good for Mother Teresa. She affirmed the obvious. Smiles should be charitable. But who gave Teresa a monopoly on charitable smiles? Why are smiles permitted for Teresa but forbidden for Bill Gothard?
      
      But let’s go back to slavery. Must we trivialize slave labor? Slave labor is a grim reality which sinful men sometimes impose on their neighbors. How dare we use the same term for what we freely choose? How dare we insult real slaves? Is servitude the same as voluntary service?
      
      Real slaves suffer by constraint. God's people suffer by choice. See the difference?
    - rob war August 12, 2023
      
      David,
      You are not getting or don't want to the difference between what smiling meant or was to Mother Theresa of Calcutta and Bill Gothard. You are ignoring the difference. Very typical for you.
      Why don't you go see the movie "Sound of Freedom" which is about modern-day slavery. You need to take your sick views of slavery elsewhere. There is no discussion or justification for slavery and quit twisting Bible verses to do so. The most gripping scene from that movie is when they showed the girl sitting in a bath tube sobbing after she was raped. Maybe you ought to go see this movie. Trying to justify slavery is sick and disturbed.
David S. Knecht Sr. August 6, 2023 Reply

The link above is interesting but disappointing. Shall we invoke C.S. Lewis to elevate grumpy sulky people over shiny happy people? But Lewis and Gothard agreed about suffering.

Both acknowledged that suffering is a real and grievous burden. Although Gothard wrote about smiling, he also wrote about suffering, just as Christ’s apostles did.

What a weird irony that our author rejoiced at wearing a virus mask to relieve her from the burden of smiling. With a concealed face, she could be “more authentic.” But is it virtuous to be authentically crabby instead of authentically joyful? Is Lucy van Pelt superior to Snoopy? or Tigger?
- Mark August 15, 2023 Reply
  
  David, I feel sad for you that you can't engage an argument authentically. You use words like "truth" and "authentically", but your arguments are twisted and full of deceit.
  
  The author rejoiced in being authentic. The point she was making, which you are deceitfully sidestepping is that being authentically "crabby" (your words) is indeed better than being inauthentically joyful. And, by forcing your own narrative on what she said, you are silencing her.
  
  If Invoking CS Lewis to promote his teachings on male headship is good, then what argument do you present that it's wrong to invoke CS Lewis to show he agreed that pasted-on smiles weren't a spiritual necessity.
  
  If CS Lewis is only worth quoting when you quote him, and Paul is only worth quoting when you quote him, then isn't your entire argument one giant appeal to authority with you being the authority? As my parents would say, who died and made you king?
  
  Your arguments are compartmentalized. In one breath you say "abuse" and "victim" cannot be used when there is free choice, but you've already argued that slavery, which, by definition, is the removal of free choice, and abusive, is okay. Paul quotes the OT saying, "the laborer is worthy of his wages." What wages are slaves paid? Are they laborers? So, you can cherry-pick and prooftext that Paul acknowledged the slavery of the day and did not teach against it, yet Paul himself said, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food."
  - David S. Knecht Sr. August 19, 2023 Reply
    
    As brother Mark says above, there is always someone to obey. Ask anyone who has dealt with IRS. Long before Bill Gothard existed, there were natural authorities such as parents and elders. As Shakespeare said, “every subject’s duty is the king’s, but every subject’s soul is his own.” But obedience or disobedience is always our choice to make. Naturally, the price is also ours to pay.
    
    Slavery is a sticky topic here. Let’s stick with it, because it sticks with us. Paul’s epistle to the Romans declares that we choose slavery to God or slavery to sin. St. Paul even boasted of his bond service to God.
    
    As Mark also says above, even our good choices may be costly. Bill Gothard covered that, too. In his material about suffering, Gothard warned us that suffering is sometimes the price of choosing God. But Hell is the price of choosing sin, unless we repent and believe.
    - Mark August 19, 2023
      
      Yup, as I said, you cannot engage authentically. I don't obey the IRS, I obey the laws that went through a legislative process that created our tax code. Those same laws created the IRS as an entity to explain and enforce the tax code, not the pontifications of some man.
      
      Shakespeare, I'm sure he's a spiritual authority, but you are either missing my point ignorantly or deliberately. I said that Patriarchs teach that EVERY HUMAN RELATIONSHIP must have a hierarchy. Just because there is always "someone to obey" does not address my argument. You are evading it. I obey Jesus.
      
      Obedience or disobedience is a false dichotomy. There are more options. If my neighbor asks me for a cup of milk there is no authority at play, nor obedience. The law of God is silent on the matter. I have the freedom to choose to give a cup of milk or the freedom to not give a cup of milk. If Bill Gothard or my pastor or the IRS asks me for a cup of milk, I still get to say no without sinning.
      
      Slavery - let's stick with what? Again, you're not authentic and you're avoiding the argument. I'm happy to be a "slave to God." I refuse to be a slave to man, and I refuse to support those who would make slaves of men.
      
      Let's take a step back. Are you afraid of God or men? If you are engaging in an argument for the truth of scripture and afraid to say what you believe, aren't you putting the opinions of men ahead of the opinions of God? Your evasiveness just shows that you are arguing falsehood and you know it.
  - David S. Knecht Sr. August 19, 2023 Reply
    
    Should Christians argue, authentically or otherwise? possibly not. We read plenty of apostolic scolding about quarrels among Christians. Our arguments can be symptoms of serious problems. With a blast of apostolic hyperbole, St. James described Christians in chaos. In Chapter 4 he said our conflicts arise from our lusts, which show that we are friends of the world and enemies of God. So maybe arguments are not such a great idea, after all?
    
    But we might take a hint from even the heathen. Supposedly, Socrates was famous for asking questions in pursuit of truth.
    
    Did we notice that Christ himself raised questions more than he supplied answers? That encouraged his friends and exasperated his enemies. If Dr. Wyma wilts when questioned, how good a teacher is she? Or what about us? If we bristle at questions, how shall we learn (from Dr. Wyma or anyone else)?
    - Mark August 19, 2023
      
      "Should Christians argue, authentically or otherwise? possibly not."
      
      Completely baseless. Paul says, "This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."
      
      So, in one brush, you hastily generalize what Paul is saying - that Christians should not argue, but you miss the point that Paul is talking about foolish or trivial arguments.
      
      You offend those who have been beaten, raped and oppressed under Gothard's teaching by saying that arguing about his teaching is foolish or trivial. Instead, Gothard is proclaiming a gospel of domineering and lack of accountability. So, we who have the true gospel get to engage head on to point out, as has been done over and over here, that Gothard's teachings put men in the place of Christ. My spiritual authority is Jesus. I listen and seriously consider what godly people around me have to say about Jesus, but in the end, my choice to obey Jesus doesn't get filtered through N umbrellas, and I don't teach my children that they must obey and defer to my spiritual interpretation to have a relationship with Jesus. I can talk about what I believe and my experience, but we are ultimately spiritual peers.
David S. Knecht Sr. August 19, 2023 Reply

Bill Gothard presided over beatings and rape? Talk about putting the hype in hyperbole! Even Gothard's worst enemies refrain from dark fantasies about Gothard torture chambers. Bunyan's Giant Despair was Santa Claus compared to that fantastic caricature of Gothard. Let’s keep this shiny and happy!

The apostolic witness about quarreling seems pretty broad, doesn’t it? Both Paul and James weighed in. I quoted James instead of Paul because he was the one who warned us against what our quarrels might signify.

But indeed there is always someone to obey. We can impute legitimate authority to the IRS or Andy Griffith, but that's the point. When my son obeys my command to clean his room, he is mainly obeying Christ. Man’s authority is limited and derivative. Even our authority over our pets is limited and derivative. We owe them affection and correction in just proportions.
- Mark August 19, 2023 Reply
  
  Even Gothard's worst enemies refrain from dark fantasies about Gothard torture chambers. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/the-prayer-closet/
  
  I guess I shouldn't be surprised that your reading comprehension of the Bible is lacking, when you say stuff like "Bill Gothard presided over beatings and rape?" If you put words in Paul's mouth, James's mouth and pretty much read into the Bible whatever you fancy at the moment, it's not surprising that you take poetic license with what I say in order to make your argument that more... compelling?
  
  Michael and Debi Pearl didn't visit every house where their book on discipline was followed. The wrote and taught and people who followed their teaching beat their kids. In the same way, those who followed Gothard's teaching physically and sexually abused. Jim Bob Duggar lied in federal court about the extent to which his daughters were molested in an attempt to protect his son. So Mr. "Umbrella of protection" Duggar protected the abuser and threw his daughters under the bus. In software-speak, that is "feature, not bug" of patriarchal teaching. If the poster child for how to run a family under IBLP/ATI teachings thinks his daughters' abuse is so unimportant, doesn't that suggest that the teaching itself is corrupt?
  
  Yes, it might seem broad until you realize that the content of Galatians, for example is an argument against the Judaizers. And that's pretty much exactly what I mean when I say your arguments are compartmentalized. Paul "opposed Peter to his face" by... ARGUING with him, yet you want to cherry pick a verse here and there to support your argument. Is the Bible true or not? Does Paul say, follow me as I follow Christ, don't argue, and then oh yeah, he argued with Peter and he argued with the Judaizers. Or are you just engaging in fallacious hasty generalization. I pick hasty generalization.
  
  "Indeed there is always someone to obey." You're not honest with my argument. Just because obedience exists doesn't mean that every human relationship requires someone greater and someone lesser. In fact, in Kindergarten, there is a word for someone who hold that opinion - a bully. The bully says, "I'm stronger than you therefore you must do what I say." The true authority says that all kindergarteners share the same level of authority unless they are given an authoritative role e.g "door holder" by the teacher.
Rob war August 19, 2023 Reply

David,
Really, a white southerner wants to defend slavery? Have you ever read Psalm 95? God made us we belong to Him. When St Paul calls himself a slave for God, that is what he is referring to because God made us. That is not a justification of man owning another man , woman or child. You are grasping at straws here, twisting scripture to your sick views. David, the only reason you are here is to harass, argue and bully others. If you were a man of honor, you would move on and leave others alone. You obviously are not. All you have done here is cause arguments while trying to quote the Bible about not arguing all the while you are here to do so.
If you think you are defending Bill , you are not and proving how Bill is twisted himself and causes others that follow him to be just as sick. We all belong to God, not to each other as slaves. To even suggest so is evil and sick. You need to go away
- David S. Knecht Sr. August 20, 2023 Reply
  
  Do white southerners defend slavery? Are racist Yankees better than white southerners? May we see some evidence behind the racist accusations above? All the evidence on this blog shows the opposite!
  
  May we also see evidence that St. Paul really meant "made by God" when he called himself a “doulos”? Was Paul yet another white racist because he boasted of his own servitude?
  
  Even so, shall we have peace? Psalm 95 is beautiful, isn’t it? It presents a pastoral image of God’s people like sheep. But sheep need maintenance. The “doulos” tends the sheep and cleans up the dung. Amazingly, Paul embraced all three roles. He was sheep and shepherd and bondservant all in one. If only we could imitate him better!
  - Mark August 20, 2023 Reply
    
    David, I think I understand your deflection. Slave trade was a national sin, not limited to the South. When slavery ended, what replaced it was systemic racism, which we still have in our society. Eminent Domain was used to build highways through up-and-coming minority neighborhoods in Detroit, Denver and Portland, to name a few I'm familiar with.
    
    As, e.g. Susan, said above, the Bible was written to the audience of the day. Perhaps if Jesus had come today, he would not be talking using the language of farming, servants and sailing, but perhaps suburbia, work and driving. Jesus himself condemns the Pharisees for finding license in scripture. The Pharisees use the point that Moses allowed divorce to fling wide abuse of women. Jesus said, "It's for the hardness of your hearts that Moses gave you divorce!" Despite Jesus's teaching, we still have hard hearts and the need for divorce today.
    
    Paul's use of slave analogies and instructions to slaves was not license to own other people, just like the Old Testament laws about owning sex slaves and marrying your dead brother's sister were not justifications of polygamy.
    
    So approaching the Bible from a myopic literalist point of view, whether you're trying to approach it honestly or deceitfully, just doesn't work in the grand scheme of things. When Jesus died on the cross, he didn't tell his disciples that they could only teach the ultimate fulfillment of everything. In fact, it appears quite the opposite. Paul says he wants to teach them more truth, but his audience is still stuck in Christianity 101. It might be a lot like trying to preach abolitionism in southern states in the early 1860's. Both the baptist and presbyterian churches split over slavery in the early 1800's, forming the southern presbyterian church (PCUS), parts of which joined the PCA and the southern baptist church (SBC).
    
    If it makes you feel better, I grew up in the north and northeners have no high moral ground on the treatment of minorities. That said, I doubt you get to stand before the judgment throne and say, yeah, I hit him with a baseball bat, but that's okay because a northerner punched him first. Just as I don't get to say, my city treats minorities poorly, but that's okay, because look what's happening in Alabama.
rob war August 21, 2023 Reply

thank-you Mark for your insight and comments, they are appreciated. Let me say this to clear the air. One of the most segregated areas in the country in Detroit Metropolitan area with a major city like Detroit being most African American and the border of 8 Mile in the north with a mostly white suburbia north of 8 Mile. Sadly, this has created tricky and difficult politics between a major "black" city and the richer white suburbia to the north. (Oakland County, which is just north of Detroit, is one of the richest counties in the country). My original post was a link to a sermon given by Anna Duggar's father at his son-in-law's Church. While Anna Duggar's father is from Florida and the Church is in Texas, at no time did I mention the south, nor was I pointing fingers at anyone in the south at who started slavery first, who is more racist, who is more segregated. The point of the post was to show the bankrupt ideas of a die-hard Gotharite like Anna Duggar's father and maybe point to why poor Anna Duggar is in the mess she currently is in with a husband in jail for child porn. David, all you did here was read your own ideas into this, tried to turn this into a north/south fight and then on top of it, tried to justify slavery. The disgusting sermon by Anna's father was even pulled by David Waller's church who is also a die-hard Gotharite and lead to public apologies by the same Church. David, you repeatedly twist thing people write here, you have repeatedly stated that we all "hate Bill and are his enemies". You have repeatedly called most everyone here liars. My question to you is, why are you here and do you really think you accomplish here by all of this? The last think Bill Gothard needs is a devoted follower trying to justify slavery while then pointing to other parts of the country and calling those areas racist too, just as bad as the old south. It is pretty sad that a link to an outrageous sermon is twisted around by you into a north/south fight. When the pastor turned journalist Joe Pearce on Shiny Happy People (which I don't think you even watched) stated that Bill Gothard turned every father into an island where he was king of his home, he hit the nail on the head and described you perfectly. Except maybe it is more like king kong of the home. Only someone living in his own kingdom island is going to come up with the outlandish ideas the St. Paul justified slavery because he called himself a slave of God. But that is what isolation and following Bill Gothard will do to one's soul.
- Mark August 22, 2023 Reply
  
  I think the kingdom island gets coupled with the underlying point of Gothard's wisdom literature that no one can make sense of any situation or make sense of scripture without the voice of the king. The examples I read were like, you see someone hitting your daughter and you go to break it up, but even though that seems obvious and rational, what's really happening is that the someone is an undercover police officer and your daughter is a drug dealer who is resisting arrest. So, it's not surprising that the way David is engaging us from his kingdom island is to say something like "you think slavery is obviously and rationally wrong, but let me tell you how it really is."*sigh* The apple does not fall far from the tree.
  - rob war August 22, 2023 Reply
    
    thank-you for your comments. I am amazed at the number of testimonies of people that got caught up with Gothard just ended up really not even going to Church but making their own home a Church. Jinger testified to this in some of her interviews. If every father becomes the king of the home and not accountable to anyone else, then this is what happens and the fruit of that is however they may read the Bible, no matter if it is unreasonable or incorrect, is it. The king become the center of truth or determining truth, which is what happens in cults. I recently read, I think it was from Without a Crystal Ball, where Jim Bob and Michelle actually really don't attend Church, even though they may send their kids to be in the choir. The other side of this is Church hopping or bouncing around. So someone if a baptist, to become an Anglican, to become a Methodist, to become a Lutheran. No stability, just bouncing around. The center become me, myself and I.
    
    The Power Worshippers is a tough read. It is like walking down memory lane in many ways. However, I did very much disagree with the chapter on abortion. Abortion has always been considered murder, all the way back to the time of the apostles. The Didache states this: The Didache
    “The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
    When Roe V Wade ruling came down, the first and only voices against it were Catholic and growing up during that time, I can remember this. Evangelicals came in later as the author did point out and then it became more of a political football instead of a moral issue. The overturning of Roe only put the issue back onto the States of which most of them already allow abortion. The battle was won but the war was lost. I think the political battles over shadowed the moral battles for why abortion is wrong and the harm it does not just to the baby but to the mother and even the father. The political fights over took the moral call for conversions and that seems to be the why we are in such a big mess right now.
    thank-you for the recommendations and your comments.
Mark August 25, 2023 Reply

Seems like my comment may have gone into moderation and got deleted - probably wrong e-mail address.

I think there's a bit of a nuance you didn't pick up in the chapter on abortion. Billy Graham _praised_ Roe v. Wade seemingly because it was a Catholic issue and not an Evangelical issue.

What then happened was that the conservative/racist southern Republicans realized that they could no longer generate political support on racist policies. They got together and came up with abortion being the issue that would galvanize support. That is exactly what happened, and over the next, not even 10 years, you could not be a viable Republican candidate without a strong stand on abortion.

I was raised strongly pro-life (picketed, etc.) and my eyes started getting opened when Right-To-Life Michigan refused to endorse Pete Hoekstra, who was my preferred candidate as pro-life. https://www.mlive.com/politics/2010/06/right_to_life_endorses_mike_co.html They said "electability", but Hoekstra received more votes than Cox even with the endorsement.

Over the years, I realized that "pro-life" was more "anti-abortion" as pro-lifers refused to pass laws providing free contraception. In Denver, a study provided free IUDs to teens. The pregnancy rate went down 64% and the abortion rate went down 50%, but when the study results were used to justify a bill for free contraception, the pro-lifers squashed it. My pro-life crew said "moral hazard", but seriously, there's not a leg to stand on. Increasing the military budget is a moral hazard. Too big to fail is a moral hazard, but somehow what isn't a moral hazard is taking away teenage girls ability to say "no" (Gothard) shaming them for getting pregnant (while secretly high-fiving the father for his conquest), and then locking the door to the abortion clinic when they seek the only rational way out of lifelong shame.

Instead, like pretty much every moral movement, the underlying cause needs to be addressed. Girls can't say no because they are taught that their value is 100% in some other "authority". Girls' no is ignored because the justice system won't hold men accountable for disrespecting it. Circling back to the show, IBLP/Evangelical girls are taught that their highest calling is being a sex object and baby factory for men, and in IBLP, specifically, consent is someone else's decision.
- rob war August 28, 2023 Reply
  
  I understand there have been many inconsistencies with Pro-Life groups.
  
  https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/what-exactly-are-conservatives-conserving
  
  The article expresses how I see and feel about the direction we are going in.
  Just a couple of notes about the IUD thing. IUDs and the pill are actually forms of abortions themselves since they prevent implantation of the newly formed baby. They also don't stop the other side effect of sexual activity which is STDs which are likewise rampant and have very deadly and long-lasting effects. That is probably why many pro-life groups did not support some of these programs even if you saw them as options. Thank-you for the discussion and I wish you well.
  - Mark September 3, 2023 Reply
    
    I agree with you on IUDs, but there was a study done on hormonal birth control. There was no statistically significant difference between pregnancies on the day after pills when ovulation has occurred. They do have the effect of reducing the lining, and that's where the misinformation came from that they have a secondary effect of preventing implantation. However, the result of the study is that there is no secondary effect. The only effect of the pill is to prevent ovulation. If ovulation occurs, the pill does not appear to affect implantation.
    
    For IUD, supposedly it is 99% effective at the main features of being a spermicide and making the environment difficult for fertilization. However, it does have the possibility of preventing implantation. I'm assuming that they've studied this, but I haven't read any studies unlike with hormonal birth control. I can find the link if you want it.
    
    Another problem with studying the secondary effect is that something like 25% of fertilized eggs never implant, with or without contraception. I also have difficulty with the fact that the ACOG decided that "implantation" was the definition of conception, so it is difficult to know what effects different birth control methods have unless you research them. Something can be considered contraceptive (preventing conception) even if its primary effect is to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.
    
    I understand STDs are also a public health issue, but this is a distraction from what it means to be pro-life. Why does pro-life also mandate a specific view of premarital sex, and why does preventing premarital sex trump reducing abortions? In other words, pro-life Republicans would rather have more babies murdered than appear to support premarital sex? What would that mean for alcohol and marijuana? What Republicans campaign on banning alcohol, even though drunk/impaired driving is a significant cause of death to innocent citizens, and drunkenness is also a sin.
    - JM January 12, 2024
      
      I might be able to help answer some of this, because it's something I ran into recently.
      
      The problem a LOT of people have when it comes to pro-life, conservative, and Republican TERMS (emphasis for effect only) is that we are limited and influenced by where we come from when we approach these terms.
      
      I grew up in a very conservative, separated, IFB home that voted Republican. When I hear "pro-life Republican," and I see a candidate supporting that position, I am naturally inclined to think the candidate shares my starting position on the subject.
      
      But the conservative Republican position, or even just the conservative position is far, FAR more nuanced and encompassing than that.
      
      Here's a good example - the Daily Wire. They have grown in popularity in recent years by providing a conservative voice and reaction to woke media and woke perspectives. I'd wager, based on my personal observation, that they are largely watched by conservative Christians, even many IFB's, who vote conservative and Republican. Those are the kind of people who pad out the subscriber base on YouTube.
      
      But did you see Lady Ballers? (I did.) Did you notice how clean it was - no cussing, no sexual innuendos? Well, if you didn't catch it, and at the risk of spoiling it, it is filled with cussing, dirty talk, and some sexual innuendos and situations.
      
      I wonder how many of the Daily Wire's normal crowd reacted to that (I haven't surveyed them yet). I'm curious if anyone was surprised by this. I was not. Being conservative is a reaction to a certain political direction. Being conservative Christian is a reaction to a theological direction. Being conservative IFB is yet another reaction.
      
      Pro-life is just another of these - it's a reaction to a specific direction, but it is one that does not require any of the other reactions. Just as Daily Wire can be conservative politically and not conservative as many separated IFB Christians, one can be pro-life and still very much politically liberal otherwise.
      
      We often stand in the intersections. That is why we sometimes fail to grasp many of these political and social nuances.
    - Mark February 4, 2024
      
      Thanks, JM. I feel like that is a process I've had to go through. At first being conservative Christian meant I was Republican, like Republicans were the only party furthering Christianity. Democratic Christians were either liars or deluded.
      The mask came off at some point and I found that I was at a crossroads between both parties. I feel more closely aligned with the ideals of social justice found in the Democratic party, but I feel more closely aligned with economic theory and public morality in the Republican party.
      
      Abortion comes at a crossroads because there is a social justice issue in how our system treats women as sex objects to be conquered and winks at sexual assault by men. There is legal issue in how we allow deadbeat dads to force single mothers into poverty when the government could garnish wages, etc., like they do with taxes. There is also the morality issue of killing innocent children and premarital sex. That said, I also see a pattern that morality comes before laws, not laws before morality. Prohibition legislation did not cure drunkenness, and in the same respect, the abortion rate was dropping in our country, even with Roe v. Wade.
      
      But, yes, the idealistic mask of righteousness the Republican party had in the myths of my religious background has come off and I see a lot of these people as just as corrupt and just as power-hungry as any other politicians. The church does a great disservice by not calling out behavior on both sides.
    - JM February 6, 2024
      
      Respectfully, Mark. There are MANY who DO call out these issues on both sides. It's just that politically. . . .we're all standing in the mud.
      
      Politics is a quagmire everywhere you go, and I do mean EVERYWHERE. It's this way in England, France, Spain, Japan, China, and literally every other country on the planet. I've seen it.
      
      What can be difficult for many Christians is the concept that politics exist to address one issue - government and law. We, as Christians, sit at the intersections of MANY issues. Government is only one.
      
      That is why you see Christians who proudly vote for Trump (as I did and plan to again) but don't like him that much (as I do). We vote on policy and position for government but also condemn on moral issues where necessary.
      
      The question there is whether you feel it important to vote or not. That's a question you have to answer for yourself. I can give you my opinion and advice, but I can't make the decision for you. It isn't about party politics for many of us.
      
      You're absolutely right in that you regulate morality with laws. We've seen that tried, and it failed. It does raise an important question of how we proceed. And again, these are issues that I don't know I have answers for. At least not completely.
      
      But I will take issue with that one element of your post. It's not that Christians do not talk about these issues of their political leaders or problem within the parties. Many of us do. The issue is just far more complicated than simple, and many understand that we have to vote. It's a matter of who for. Someone has to hold office, and it has to be one of two in most cases. There's no such thing as a good candidate Biblically. You'll have to choose between two bads.
Rob war September 12, 2023 Reply

Any thoughts on Jill’s book yet? Has anyone started to read it?
kevin November 3, 2023 Reply

Bill Gothard turned 89 yesterday.

Just watched a short YouTube video called Bill Gothard Former Leader of IBLP. I believe it is the most recent video footage of him. Two reporters from the local media attempted to ask Bill his thoughts on the Shiny Happy People documentary. He seemed totally oblivious to what they were talking about. Honestly, it seemed like the lights were on, but nobody was home.

Interesting that a rather large Gay Pride flag was in the background of the video- which appears to be flying from his neighbor's home.

I'd link the video, but in the past when I've tried to provide a link the message seems to get blocked. If you go to YouTube and search for "Bill Gothard Former Leader of IBLP" it should pop up.
- rob war November 3, 2023 Reply
  
  Yes, I saw the video. He did come across as out of it and I think some of that could be do to hearing loss. The Patch reporters seems to be too complimentary to Bill, not sure if that was their way of trying to get him to talk. Bill didn't bite and they back off very quickly. He obviously is not the robust man just ready to go back to IBLP as painted over at DG.
  - kevin November 5, 2023 Reply
    
    "He obviously is not the robust man just ready to go back to IBLP as painted over at DG."
    
    They're delusional. Zero possibility that they will take him back.
    - rob war November 5, 2023
      
      Likewise delusional that an unknown/unheard of mommy blogger that wrote one book which promotes blanket training in it (I read her book), turns to an unknown/unheard of Mormon media group in order to produce a counter series to Amazon's Shiny Happy People. Their fundraising page didn't even crack 1% of the 300K they wanted and the new Facebook page for this only has 28 followers. Likewise, this mommy blogger video of "Was I in a cult" while pretending to talk about the docuseries spent more time talking about Jinger's book which really wasn't featured in the series and Jinger was not interviewed, it was Jill. She never addressed anything brought up in series at all. Turning to a Mormon media group to complain about "attacks" on so call conservative Christians is really rather desperate and shows what a delusional farce this all is.
    - kevin November 17, 2023
      
      "Their fundraising page didn't even crack 1% of the 300K they wanted"
      
      That’s hilarious. It seems as though the sycophants are all talk and not too eager when it comes to opening up their wallets to defend their guru.
      
      I doubt that we will ever see this so called counter "documentary". If it happens, (it won't) I expect it will be more of a crockumentary.
    - rob war November 18, 2023
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0QBxjm6ZXA&list=PLF2yLQWsIFVzRXpc-G1q_RMp5zLpI5ByR&index=2
      
      Davey Jackson is a "cult survivor" and has done a number of great blogs posts on IBLP/ATI. This particular one is about this so called "documentary" in the make by Holly. It is the best take down of her attempt to discredit everyone that has come out of IBLP/ATI. I agree with everything being said here.
Elizabeth H. November 28, 2023 Reply

I had to step away from all the comments for a bit because I am currently living through a horrific trauma of my own which I consider to be a direct result of being personally groomed by Bill G. My greatest supporter throughout the entire thing is one of the amazing, courageous women part of the national lawsuit against Bill. She is, in my eyes, a superhero. She has been a rock for me during this very dark time - I am still fighting for my life, and my childrens' lives. We are living in danger daily thanks to the garbage I was fed (and believed) for so long. The spiritual abuse in the church is STILL alive and well.

I must say, though, that I am encouraged at the numbers of people in my life whom I've known SINCE my time in the cult (ATI/IBLP) who have contacted me to let me know they saw SHP and were horrified. "Now I have some idea of what you're experiencing. I am SO SORRY - I can't even imagine what damage this must have done to you personally - I would say I understand - but I really can't because it's so horrific I can't find the words...." It is encouraging to hear people with actual hearts who are there to help those of us who are absolutely - broken.

My world is shattered, and the nightmares continue to feel new every day... For those who wonder if it really is that bad....... Consider this: for one has been groomed to be abused, imagine the ways that person becomes a target for abuse by others who naturally seek out victims. I'm one of them - and it's been a long, long nightmare. I'd sure like to wake up.
rob war February 4, 2024 Reply

JM,

You should be aware that Sacred Honor Media and the woman behind the counter to Shiny Happy People are Mormon. Just looking at the different trailers that Sacred Honor Media has done which include who killed Joseph Smith, frequent shots of Mormon Temples, featuring Mormons in their videos should give them away. The fact that they are trying to hide that they are Mormon should give anyone pause as to why. Their trailer about communists going after Christians uses David Koresh and polygamy Mormon groups having their children removed as examples of communists going after "christians" is a dead give away as to who they really are. Now maybe you might be OK with this, but if you give to the cause of Shiny Slander, be aware that you are giving to Mormon groups and people that do give 10% to their temples. I did read Holly's book which sells on Amazon, the very Amazon that she is trying to claim is out to get "Christians". She promotes blanket training and many other abusive child rearing techniques that were talking about in Shiny Happy People which is what I think the real reason why Shiny Happy People hit a nerve with her. She is another abuse peddler along with the Pearls, Michelle Duggar and IBLP. Bill Gothard condemned Joseph Smith in his wisdom booklet 54. Maybe he changed his mind or is so desperate for attention that he is willing to work with this. What this turns out to be is just a den of heretics trying to help each other out. You have been duly warned.
- JM February 6, 2024 Reply
  
  Thanks, but. . .
  
  What are you responding to? I don't remember making an issue of any of this. Perhaps, you meant to respond to someone else and tagged me by mistake?
  
  I don't get it. I know that Sacred Honor Media is Mormon. I'm aware of these issues. I don't challenge nor do I remember challenging that. So. . .what gives?
  - rob war February 7, 2024 Reply
    
    It was denied to me that Sacred Honor Media and Holly are Mormon with the powers to be at DG. It is dishonest to hide or pretend to be something or someone else when you are not. Holly can't claim to be Christian, and that Amazon is out to get Christians when she is Mormon or part of a subgroup of Mormons called the Community of Christ Temple which is based where she is from in Independence MO. People that hide who they really are, are not going to be honest in anything else they do, which is trying to put together some kind of response to Shiney Happy People. The slander is on them, not Amazon. Bill clearly condemned in Wisdom booklet 50, Joseph Smith. You have to ask yourself why a group of Mormons would want to defend Bill. As Holly said in her trailer, "something isn't right here". Self-fulfilling statement.
    - JM February 8, 2024
      
      Rob, I don't have to ask myself that at all. I don't have a problem here. I want to know where you're challenging me with this. Please explain to me what you intend with this line of thinking. I have no quarrel with you here.
    - rob war February 8, 2024
      
      NP, the challenge has to do with what you are being told over at DG.
    - JM February 9, 2024
      
      Okay then. Please elaborate. I am aware of Holly and Sacred Honor Media. At the time of your post, I hadn't even viewed any of those videos.
      
      So your argument is. . .what? They're Mormon - therefore tainted? Do I need to stress to you again that I deal with facts? Facts come from a variety of sources. Being Mormon or even steeped in IBLP does not preclude anyone from having facts.
      
      I know how to look beyond bias, just as I assume you can. The folks at DG aren't denying it either. They're just trying to give another perspective. They know about the Mormonism. They are very well aware of it.
      
      I think you need to take a good listen to what is actually being said and approach it cautiously from that perspective before going "Mormon - wrong." Facts are facts. You wouldn't be too keen on someone rejecting you outright because you're Catholic. Give others that same respect. Facts come first.
    - rob war February 11, 2024
      
      Alfred denied to me that Sacred Media was Mormon. He also has denied this to others that have approached him, and I do have firsthand knowledge of this. Only others have brought up that she in fact is Mormon which makes sense in why she works with Sacred Media. The problem here is that Bill Gothard has condemned very strongly in Wisdom booklet 50 Joseph Smith and called him a false prophet and a cult leader. I read her book because I can't stand watching her videos. she promotes in the book as well as on her parenting advise videos abusive techniques such as blanket training, hitting your children with a car wind shield wiper and a technique called "cover the mouth". She is an abuse peddler like the Pearls and IBLP which were covered in the Amazon series. In all her videos, she is calling herself "Christian". Now unless you consider Mormons "Christian" which I highly doubt, she should be honest about her religion and what she really believes. That is deception. You also need to ask yourself why a Mormon media would group would want to defend a man like Bill Gothard that did call their prophet, Joseph Smith false and a cult leader. This doesn't add up and her videos are much more about her and her opinions than anything else.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pToFj3SwfAU&list=PLF2yLQWsIFVzRXpc-G1q_RMp5zLpI5ByR&index=1
    - JM February 12, 2024
      
      Correction, Rob. I don't have to ask myself anything. I know she's Mormon, and I know what that entails. I'm willing to wager I understand the history and controversy of that faith system far better than you do, having studied it on and off for more than 10 years.
      
      I am aware of Holly and Sacred Honor and the intricacies of this whole thing. I don't need to be reminded. Please kindly respond to someone who has a problem here, not me. Your quarrel is elsewhere. I will have words with the moderators here if you continue to stir this up toward me.
      
      I care only about facts. The source of those facts DO NOT MATTER for the facts. Truth comes from bad sources just as lies come from good ones. I am able to separate that. This concept isn't just germane to this discussion, it's critical, since the peddlers of Shiny, Happy People are also tainted.
      
      Gotta call a spade a spade if you're gonna insist on this.
Lynn Dell February 14, 2024 Reply

Hi, all, the contact link didn't work for me, so am posting this out of the blue. On Twitter, and I presume FB, the recent biographies of Elisabeth Elliot are a hot topic vis a vis the accusations that her third husband was abusive. I happen to know from years old conversations and more recently finding an article by a Wende Benner of Homeschoolers Anonymous that Elliot was not only counseled women at EXCEL, but she appeared to be in lock step with Gothard's teachings on authority. Do any of you have any more evidence or testimonies to corroborate what I've heard and read??
- Jeanne February 14, 2024 Reply
  
  Check out the Bare Marriage website. Today's article talks about Valentine's Day, and there is a mention of Elisabeth Elliot in it. There are a couple of links to an article about her life that I read today. Hope that helps.
- JM February 15, 2024 Reply
  
  I'm not sure why it is such a surprise that Eliot's views would match up with Gothard's. Bill's ideas were not new. They were taken straight from the Bible. The Bible teaches authority and authority structures. That is NOT in question.
  
  What is in question is the application. Eliot and Gothard wouldn't exactly agree in many aspects of that. She wouldn't have appreciated the hammer and chisel analogy Bill used, for example. But the idea of authority is Bible, not Bill.
  
  We shouldn't be surprised when people come to some of the same conclusions. That happens because we all look at the same source. In other words, if you have a problem with authority, you don't have a problem with Bill. You have a problem with the Bible. It is that simple.
- rob war February 16, 2024 Reply
  
  https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2023/july-august/elisabeth-elliot-biography-lucy-austen.html
  
  I never heard that her 3rd husband was abusive. I thought the review by CT was fair. EE is a mixed bag. I saw her speak live once. Before she came out, an older man was at the podium adjusting it. He left and then she came out and her first words were "I still don't like listening to my husband". That man was her 3rd husband, adjusting the mic for her to speak. She didn't really live out the advise she gave out in her book "Let me be a Woman" which I did read long ago. She had a writing career, speaking career, radio show, etc. Those are the issue I saw and had with her. Her third husband started out as one of her boarders after her 2nd husband died. I think he was a hospital chaplain. Her life didn't match her message to women which should be an issue as one reviews her and her life.
  - JM February 19, 2024 Reply
    
    Hey. That link is dead. Not sure what happened, but it isn't there anymore.
    - rob war February 19, 2024
      
      Go to Christianity Today and in their search, type Elisabeth Elliot and the article should come up for you.
    - JM February 26, 2024
      
      I checked it this morning. It's been restored.
      
      I would agree the take is very fair. I'm curious where you read about her last husband being abusive? I'd like to see that, since I've just not heard of it.
      
      EE is a mixed bag, as we ALL are. Honestly, we shouldn't expect any less. The old adage is "Never meet your heroes." It exists for a reason. None of removes the hand of God on a person's life. We just need to be careful we ground our expectations in reality.
      
      We're all fallen creatures here. There's no moral high ground if we're all standing in the mud. But we CAN be used, and the use can still stand, even if the vessel become marred.
  - rob war March 6, 2024 Reply
    
    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/fleshofmyflesh/2024/03/elisabeth-elliot-victim-of-biblical-womanhood/
    
    Even a better article on Elisabeth Elliot. I agree with this article.
    - JM March 8, 2024
      
      I definitely agree with that take. Again, I haven't read anything if EE's past Gates of Splendor. I certainly wouldn't consider her an expert on biblical womanhood and would wonder why she would present herself as such. Seriously, her life as a missionary speaks for itself.
      
      I do take issue with this author's criticism of Dracula, since I fear she missed the point entirely. Dracula is (wait for it) a VILLAIN. We're not supposed to be okay with what he does, especially to innocent young ladies.
      
      The worse a villain is, the stronger the motivation to eliminate that villain. And THAT is exactly what the novel is about. Nowhere are Dracula's actions justified. Quite the opposite. Dracula is reviled and sought for elimination. And it is successful.
      
      The fact that she burned her copy of it troubles me. It tells me she doesn't properly understand the things she reads. I may agree with her take on EE, but I'm bothered by her understanding of he greater issues. Something isn't right here.
    - rob war March 8, 2024
      
      I had read "Let me be a Woman" long ago while at college. It was given to me by someone I was dating at the time. Elisabeth wrote the book to her own daughter when she was about to get married herself. Thankfully, I did not end up marrying the guy that recommended that book. A number of people here have stated that they have burned Gothard's red notebook and material. It is often a part of someone's healing and moving on from bad and damaging teachings.
    - JM March 12, 2024
      
      I don't argue that. I was referring to this author's torching of Bram Stoker's Dracula. She's missed the entire point of the novel, and I not okay with that.
      
      Dracula is a villain. We can expect him to do things we don't like. That is what makes a villain a good villain.
      
      I understand she doesn't like that he preys on young innocent women. I don't either. That's what I wanted him defeated, and he is. In fact, he is so soundly defeated that he cannot rise again (all the Hammer films notwithstanding).
      
      Rob, please focus on what I'm saying and not on your internal beliefs when responding to me. It doesn't take much to get it right.
    - rob war March 13, 2024
      
      Dracula wouldn't be something I would have used to compared to Elisabeth Elliot. I have never read the original story or familiar with Dracula. I understood what the author was trying to say in the article. I thought it was a little bit of an over dramatization. But I did understand and agree with her point. Having read EE's book back as a young 20 something woman, the advice given by Elisabeth is very unhealthy and a set up for either bad marriages or controlling/abusive like ones, like what evidently Elisabeth was in with her 3rd husband. So, while Dracula would not be a comparison for me, I understood what the author was saying in use of the comparison, and it was not an issue for me like you.
    - JM March 19, 2024
      
      It was unsettling to me that you didn't seem to understand the issue I was taking with the author's post. I do agree with you and the author. I take issue with the Dracula comparison. It doesn't work because she doesn't understand what the real intent of the work is.
      
      I don't appreciate people not listening to what I'm saying, especially when I go out of my way to make it clear. You'd do the same.
      
      You and I are clear on this. This was just a reminder from me to really grasp at actual message when responding. That's something we could probably all do better.
    - Rob war March 21, 2024
      
      Well, the real Count Dracula of Transylvania was Vlad the Impaler who was a pretty brutal guy, trying to defend his area from the Ottoman Empire. That was the model for the original book. The authors’s point was that the advice given by Elisabeth “slowly sucks out the life” young women that follow it. While not what I would have thought of, that was the author of the article’s point and it is valid. Josh Harris ex wife wrote a recent book, “The woman they wanted” which is a very honest look at how these ideas affected her, which is basically her life was slowly sucked out of her and ended in divorce and a lost of faith for her and Josh Harris. Tough book to read but a brutal honest book. Brutal like Vlad the Impaler, the real character of Dracula. Maybe we need these brut comparisons to get the point.
    - JM April 3, 2024
      
      It's interesting that we think of the Impaler that way - brutal and tough. He was, of course, in the sense that his methods were gruesome.
      
      The people of Wallachia (Transylvania) would disagree though. To them, he is an absolute hero. They often wonder why we demonize him, even considering him the basis for the Dracula legends quite silly.
      
      Perhaps the reason why is a bit simple. The only people he ever submitted to the stake were his enemies - the invaders of his kingdom. And he was incredibly fair in judgment, as far as we can tell. We may not agree with his exact methods, but they were used to shock his enemies, not his people.
      
      Elizabeth Bathory is a different subject altogether.
      
      I love not to see historical figures or literature misrepresented, which is exactly what the author's comparison did here. I can't let that go, nor should you. Her point is great. She just doesn't need this one part.
      
      Misrepresenting is kinda what we're accusing some of doing, isn't it? It would be hypocritical for us to allow it in others when we see it. Just being consistent here.
    - rob war April 4, 2024
      
      Yes, I am aware Vlad Dracula is a national hero in Romania. I've seen statements that he is considered a saint in the Romanian Orthodox Church, however that isn't true, just a national hero and ought to be judged in the times that he lived which were brutal. But if you are concern about misrepresentation, isn't Bram Stoker's book the ultimate in that he took the name of a 15th Century Duke that was fighting against the Ottoman Empire and turned him into some blood thirsty demon? That far out ways whatever you felt was misrepresented in the article about Elisabeth Elliot.
    - JM April 5, 2024
      
      Is it really, Rob? Really? Is it okay to misrepresent something in order to tell a good message? Really?
      
      We don't have to do that. And isn't that the exact same thing we accuse others of doing - misrepresenting Scripture in order to teach, even if the teaching is positive?
      
      This is problematic, and I honestly can't believe you suggested it.
kevin June 14, 2024 Reply

Does anyone have an update on the expected release date of the documentary "Until the Truth" ? I believe that it is expected to be released at some point during 2024.

It includes many of the women who claim that they were abused by Gothard. See link below.

The few remaining Gothardites have been busy trying to put their fingers in the damn to stop the flood. They have failed. Just wait until this new documentary is released.

https://untilthetruth.com/
- rob war June 30, 2024 Reply
  
  I hope it is soon. What is even more curious is that the video interview done with Bill Gothard by the Mormon group Sacred Honor with a Mormon Holly doing the interview has not been released. One, I don't think they have the money they need but two, I am wondering if Bill doesn't come off very good in this interview and just like the presidential debate, Bill come off as out of it and senile, just as he did with Patch reporters when they accosted him in his driveway and Bill clearly couldn't hear them and didn't understand them. What is amazing is that he is still trying to sue IBLP in order to go back.
- JM July 22, 2024 Reply
  
  First off, it's "dam," not the other word. The spelling you used is a swear.
  
  Second, I don't know about Gothard supporters "failing." Holly has done EXACTLY what a skeptic would do - look at the claim, analyze the situation, present counter facts, make a conclusion. She did it very well. And her facts are verifiable. Can't say the same for the other side.
  
  I'm no Gothardite, but I have to admit in fairness, she pulled it off well. What she did is textbook research and argumentation.
  - rob war July 22, 2024 Reply
    
    Holly is a fraud herself. Her own son has come out against what she is doing. Just go look up the blog "Friends with Davey" and see his interviews. She pretends to present herself as a Christian and pretends to speak for all Christians. She is a devout subbranch Mormon. In her first video "Was I in a cult?", she kept talking about Jinger in the Amazon Documentary. Jinger did not appear in the series except at the end when they played a recorded interview of Jinger. It was Jill not Jinger. These are not the only facts she has mixed up in her video series. Holly only went to one basic seminar and used the character sketches with her own children. That does not make her an expert on IBLP/ATI and all the rest. In Holly's book about how to make children mind you, she promotes blanket training and something called "cover the mouth". She promotes hitting your children with wind shield whippers. So, she is another abuse peddler like the Pearls that are mentioned in Shiney. Maybe you ought to watch the series yourself. Maybe you ought to read both Jill and Jinger's book. Holly goes on social media looking for information. She also has harassed and contacted those that appeared in the Amazon series and even contacted family members. She has not gotten the money raised to produce her counter series with Sacre Honor. The only threat Amazon raised is to abuse peddling extremists like herself. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you claim not to be for Gothard but then turn around and defend his ideas and teachings. I would highly suggest you look at Davey Jackson's blogs where he interviews her son.
    - JM July 23, 2024
      
      Nope. Rob, you haven't properly evaluated Holly's videos. I'm not certain you've even seen all of them.
      
      She put to absolute rest the producer, the motives of certain individuals, and many of the testimonies of those interviewed.
      
      Yes, she did mistake Jinger for Jill, but she corrected that in a later video.
      
      Rob, please don't comment about journalism to those of us with degrees in it. Blogs are not valid sources. Interviews on blogs are not valid sources. That's not how this works. Otherwise, we'd have to consider all those Disney World blogs that plague my state as valid.
      
      Rob, I am about fairness. I have always maintained that. But fairness means we MUST evaluate EVERY side, EVERY claim.
      
      In the Gothard scenarios, there are TWO sides, those of Bill and those of his alleged victims. Truth is not established just because we like one person or believe one side. It is OUR job to investigate these claims and facts.
      
      The duplicitous nature you see in me is that. I have had to follow the claims and see for myself. The truth is almost never what people make it out to be. I think you know this.
      
      I'm going to appeal to the moderators here for this. Is it wrong for me to take closer look at all this? Is it wrong for me to apply a standard of truth in research when claims are made?
      
      Holly has passed those tests. I have followed her leads. They check out. I can't say that for everything on the other side. So I ask in fairness, what am I to do? I have to conclude something logically, not emotionally. What do you expect me to do?
rob war July 25, 2024 Reply

Jm,
you must be a jack of all trades. For someone that works in finance at a small Fundamentalist School, you seem to have not only the obvious financial background but also science and now journalism and all of this for someone in their 40s. Holly cannot accuse others of lying when she herself is being deceptive of her own religious background. If you think that is unfair, so be it. Most Protestant groups, along with Catholic and Orthodox do not consider Mormons and their many forms to be Christian. Maybe that doesn't bother you but that is a red flag for me. She does not speak for Christians, she isn't one. She only has put forth the same arguments that Alfred and those that are left supporting Bill Gothard have. To state which she has, that this blog along with many other are just either "disgruntled ATI students" or former ATI students going through a middle life crisis is a bunch of bull crap. Holly has done audio books on Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon. For her to come out swinging for Bill Gothard is very curious at best since Bill Gothard himself has stated in wisdom book 50 that Joseph Smith is a false prophet with moral issues. I highly doubt she knew that about him when she got involved. Someone here is lying about themselves, and it isn't the hundreds of former ATI students and victims that have come forward about the damage, abuse and harm that Bill Gothard and IBLP/ATI have cause. That is more than being disgruntled and going through a midlife crisis. You want to call me unfair, but instead of watching her videos, I read her only book and she is another abuse peddler like the Pearls that are mentioned by Amazon in the series. Which in my opinion is the reason she saw Amazon as a threat to herself. But what she has done instead is hide who she really is, not come out and defend her abuse techniques to control children, she deceives others pretending to be a "Christian" and wants to go on a holy war against Amazon which sells her book, because they are out to get "Christians". Her claims are just that: fraud, slander and lies.
- kevin July 31, 2024 Reply
  
  Good points Rob.
  
  There is also true irony in that a Mormon is playing the role of White Knight Gothard defender, given his statements about Joseph Smith and Mormonism.
  - rob war July 31, 2024 Reply
    
    thank-you
- JM October 24, 2024 Reply
  
  I never claimed to work in finance, but I do have some basic understanding of it.
  
  I do have two degrees in English Communication, both inclusive heavily of journalism. I am qualified to talk about properly factual organization and refutation.
  
  That is why I deal with this as fairly as I can. You can't just wave a wand and make an obvious factual claim go away. I stood up to Alfred about Bill's trip to Big Sandy. That was an obvious factual issue. He had agreed never to set foot on ministry property, and here he was doing so. Case closed.
  
  But I have to be fair and give Holly the same treatment. Regardless of her Mormon background, is she being factual? Turns out. Yes. She is.
  
  I'm sorry that that bothers you, but we MUST be fair here. Check the sources. Are they legitimate? Yes. They are. She has the edge here. Shiny, Happy People does not.
  
  It is as simple as that. Your claims are fraud and slander shouldn't be directed at her. They should be directed at Amazon. And I can say this because Amazon doesn't just publish the Shiny, Happy People documentary. They also published All In, which takes a very slanderous approach to Georgia election law. It's terrible, and it's indicative of the state of this form of journalism.
  
  This ought to be a rallying to us against the way journalism is being handled by the media conglomerates. The entire body is suspect. But you guys are overlooking that because this one documentary happens to agree with your slant toward Gothard.
  
  I'm no Gothard defender. I'm in the search for truth. Truth is true, not Bill, not the Catholic Church, or anything. As such, truth may align with any and all parties at times. That's the way it works, and it is beautiful. It cuts both ways, and it cuts us all. Just the facts, ma'am. Let's drop the pretenses and favorites and deal with it as it is.
  - rob war October 25, 2024 Reply
    
    Did you ever watch any of the Amazon series? The stories shared there have matched everything published here. Except now there is a visual face to them. Yes, her own integrity should be questioned, absolutely plays a role in this and someone cannot claim liars and frauds when she herself is hiding and lying about her own background and what is at stake for herself which is that she promotes the same abusive child rearing techniques as the Pearls in her book which is published on Amazon. Her own son who is now an atheist, has come out against his own mother and exposed her for what she is and accusing other of.
    
    You have always claimed that you are searching for the truth. That really sound hollow now. The hundreds of stories shared here and elsewhere on the internet have matched. Bill Gothard's teaching is harmful, IBLP is a fraud, ATI is a Ponzi scheme which filtered children to be working slaves for IBLP and yet somehow you still are searching for the truth. What really is the struggle for you is that IFB which you are a part of and work for in one of their institutions is very difficult to separate from the ideas and teachings of Bill Gothard. One would have to step back and look at the extreme fundamentalism which fuels Bill Gothard and his ideas and I can imagine that is difficult for you to do.
    - JM October 29, 2024
      
      I have seen the Amazon series, and I've seen the responses to it. You are failing in this. Seriously failing. Holly has factually responded to many of the claims, obviously not all of them.
      
      Any of these documentaries are automatically suspect to me, and I have mentioned why already. We have documentaries such as All In on Amazon, which falsely represent Georgia election laws. Or SeaSpiracy on Amazon, which gets several core facts seriously wrong (such as the ocean food chain, or the ocean's emptying by 2035).
      
      In other words, I'm having to approach this form of journalism exactly as I described it. It's not journalism. It's hit-piece. They appear to be factual, until you start to follow the facts.
      
      Do you think Adam Ruins Everything is factual? I did, until I started verifying his sources. This is television. It's what they do.
      
      I do agree that many of the stories match. I believe I've stated that here and elsewhere. For a good example, that's why I've stated I gave a lot more weight to Charlotte's story than did Alfred. She has two witnesses here. But the sticky wicket, and it must be sticky, is that the witnesses never witnessed the actual abuse. They can only confirm the outlying aspects, such as having personal rides in Bill's car, or seeing her alone with him at times.
      
      Alfred claimed those elements didn't happen. Two witnesses said they did. I'm inclined to tilt toward reliable because of that. BUT, I must stop short of saying it verifies the abuse. Just that it means the story isn't entirely fabricated. But some other aspects could be.
      
      This is what someone who searches for the real truth does. I MUST be fair. I don't have a problem stepping back. But I suggest you do. You won't budge from your position even though something is factually telling you you need to.
      
      And you're starting to get more personal with your responses again. Again I beg of you to keep it professional. I'm striving to do that. Just the facts. Logic. Absolutely no pre-conceptions. No Bill is good. No Bill is bad. Just the facts, ma'am.
      
      I will have words with the moderators if you go off on this tangent about my background again. It isn't necessary or appropriate.
rob war November 3, 2024 Reply

Curious that you would bring up "Charlotte" because Holly featured her in the attempted trailer for fundraising to make a counter series which never happened. A voice over the phone from Bill's interview claiming to be Charlotte's mother was saying there was no abuse. Charlotte's very sad story is about a double abuse, first with her own father, then when she wasn't behaving right (no wonder) was she sent to Bill where he also took advantage of her. I am not sure if that really is her mother in the trailer, but I don't think honestly that any mother is going to admit over the phone to Holly that there was abuse and is not in any way evidence that Charlotte is a liar about the horrible things that happen to her growing up. Alfred has never produced evidence that anything that happen to Charlotte and all the rest of the girls are false and fabricated. Alfred also never worked for IBLP and wasn't there at all during the years many of these girls were there. It is just spin and false rumors.
- JM November 12, 2024 Reply
  
  Some would say the posts here are just spin and false rumors, wouldn't they?
  
  Again, I reiterate that I consider Charlotte's story plausible because of the two witnesses. But also again, the only elements of the story they can confirm are the outlying aspects - being alone in Bill's car, in his office, etc. No one can confirm the abuse. No one. It is that simple.
  
  I consider the tale plausible because those very outlying elements are in fact questioned by Bill's supporters. It's not just the abuse they question but whether there was alone time with Bill. Since these elements have been vouched for, I can step back from my criticism for a bit.
  
  That's the way skepticism is *supposed* to work. I'm neither saying Charlotte's story is automatically correct nor am I saying she's lying. It's a toss-up with some elements independently verified. The abuse could then in turn be true.
  
  I agree we need to vet the voice on Holly's phone interview. But Charlotte's story isn't the questionable element for me. I've long considered it plausible. Assuming the voice was the mother and correct in speaking so, then yes. That would be a testifiable disproval in all fairness (since we only have testimony to go by).
  
  Alfred doesn't need to disprove any of the stories. No one does, and no one can. Evidence doesn't work that. It's hard to prove a negative. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser. The accuser has to produce evidence of the accusation. In this case, it would be the women claiming the abuse. That is how it works. If in the course of discovery, we learn that some of the elements do not match reality, then the evidence is not evidence. It is fabrication.
  
  These are cold, hard facts. They don't always work the way we want them to. But that is how it works. The sword cuts both ways, not just one.
  - rob war November 12, 2024 Reply
    
    I have a very long-term view of Bill and IBLP which is that I can remember the first sex scandal that involved his brother. Those were the years I was involved with his stuff and attended. The later stuff with people like Charlotte is really just a continuation of the first scandal which really should have shut the whole thing down. But that was the early 1980s and times now have drastically changed and there is much better awareness of sexual abuse than there was then. All these stories are just a continuation of the early problems, which also include the long hours and slave like conditions of working for Bill Gothard. Just today, the archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican Church, just resigned over his past handling of abuse cases. That is what should be going on with churches and religious organizations. Not what happen in the 1980s with Bill and IBYC, where he resigned and then came back. He did resign this time, but he obviously is not being brought back and even trying to sue to get back. It appears Bill didn't realize that it is no long 1980 and this crap is no longer to be swept under the rug.
    
    Have you ever wondered why Holly, who interviewed Bill Gothard hasn't released it? My gut feeling is that it is not just due to lack of money, but just maybe Bill at age 90 doesn't come off so good. Kinda like Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell. Just a hunch based on the videos and audios of the Patch reporters and his fiasco of trying to attend IBLP conference. And the handful of people left supporting Bill and encouraging to sue to get back to the helm of IBLP are just delusional to the obvious.
    - JM November 13, 2024
      
      I don't disagree that that action is what should happen. I'm with you there, always have been.
      
      BUT. . . That action happened due to certain absolute and agreed upon facts.
      
      The fact is there is dispute in these cases. And there is a lot of that CAN be established. So. . .where are you going with this? I don't see anything here that serves as rebuttal, unless you're not intending for rebuttal.
      
      I stress again that I look to deal in absolute fact. That is how I make my rulings. You do realize that Holly actually has a series on YouTube, right? You do know that she did post much of her findings there? I am aware she is wishing for more, but what she did there was solid enough to serve as refutation of some of these matters and more qualifications of others. I can't speak to the unreleased Bill interview, and I don't know what we can really glean from it. I imagine it doesn't add anything to narrative or take away from it. If it were me, I probably wouldn't release it at all, not even discuss it if that were the case.
    - rob war November 13, 2024
      
      JM, let me be very clear to you. Holly is a fraud. So, whatever "absolute" facts you think she has, is really not there. I don't watch her stuff because I don't want to give her any credence. You are really talking out of both sides of your mouth, you agree then turn around and claim that you want just the "absolute" facts, while hundreds of people that have been involved with Bill and IBLP speak out about the harm his teachings have done in their lives. And that is just not here, it is all over and everywhere. I watched her first video; it honestly took me 3xs to get through it. She is a fraud. Why do you keep bringing her up?
    - JM November 18, 2024
      
      Because she isn't a fraud. I'm sorry that bothers you, but she presents facts that you can follow to verify.
      
      I did. So did our friends over at DG. That is all.
      
      You can't have absolute fact, if those facts only slant one way. It is that simple. The testimonies you see here are exactly that. They are testimonies. Personal accounts. They are up for verification every time. Always. That is how this works. It doesn't matter how many accounts. Every last one of them is up for review.
      
      I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that is how this must work. You are the one trying to have it both ways. You give credence to unverifiable information but ignore what can be? You didn't Holly any credence and only watched her first video? Do you hear yourself right now?
      
      This is not how I operate. I seek. I verify, and I appreciate those who do.
    - rob war November 20, 2024
      
      Here is the facts JM,
      Holly is a Mormon, part of a very conservative group based in Missouri. She and her husband attended one Basic Seminar, and she used the Character books in her home schooling with her 9 children. She has gaslighted this web site as a "bunch of disgruntled ex-ATI students". She has harassed and approached those that have appeared in the Amazon Series. Her first video, she kept claiming and taking about Jinger when it was Jill that appeared in the series, Jinger was only in the last episode via one of her interviews over her book. She keeps presenting and calling herself as "Christian" when in fact she is not. She claims that Amazon is out to get Christians when in fact Amazon sells her book as well as all sorts of Bibles and religious books all over the place. She promotes in her book blanket training that is talked about in the Amazon series. She also promotes "cover the mouth" or in her abbreviation, CTM, heavily in her book. She also promotes using car wind shield wipers to hit your children in order to make them obey. She is an abuse peddler similar to the Pearls that are mentioned by Amazon. While she tries to make some hey about the Holts as regretting their involvement with Amazon, the Holts have lost custody of their younger children do to abuse since their involvement with Amazon. She has also tried to make Jill and Derek out to be liars in their claims on not being paid for Counting On. According to Holly, Jim Bob claims that he was "paying" his kids by buying "properties" for them and wanted to hired Derek to manage them. I don't know what planet you are from but sinking money into real estate is NOT paying anyone. This is so farcical and the so-called offer to hire Derek and just another way Jim Bob wants to control him. You keep claiming she is offering "facts" or in your words "actual facts". You have not offered anything here coming from her. If she felt "threaten" by Amazon, it is because she promotes child abuse like the Pearls and her mindset is fundamentalism like Bill Gothards even though he condemned her prophet in wisdom book 50, the same prophet she has done audio books for. I stand by my statements calling her a fraud and a farce and that is why she was never able to raise money to do a counter series to Amazon which still sells her book. Everyone outside of Alfred's blog can see this.
    - JM November 25, 2024
      
      Interesting you bring up the Jinger/Jill controversy, when Holly has corrected that in later videos.
      
      You're still missing the entire thing here, and I believe it's obvious why.
      
      You can follow her sources and check them out. Do it sometime. I'll wait. I did. It was quite eye-opening. That is why I give her an edge. You have not demonstrated that she has no facts. None. You haven't disproven anything, just argued against. . .and from. . .silence?
      
      The Holts DO dislike that they were associated with Amazon for the documentary. Call them. They will tell you that. The fact that they lost their daughter doesn't disprove this. A person is entitled to feel remorse, wouldn't you agree.
      
      As for her being a Mormon. Seriously. Are you going to be stuck on that? Again. I reiterate that it is about FACTS. Not which church you belong to.
      
      You see. I have no problem claiming that many of your Catholic divines got a lot right. None at all. But I have a feeling you are not willing to do the same for me or any others. That's a problem, Rob. And it's not my problem. It's yours.
      
      Facts are facts. Let the truth convict.
  - rob war December 1, 2024 Reply
    
    Facts are this JM, Alfred denied when directly confronted that Sacred Honor Media and Holly are Mormon and that has been directly denied to others as well. Holly pretends to be something she is not. Someone who tries to hide who they are in their faith cannot accuse others of lying. Holly promotes abuse in her book. She also promotes blanket training in her book. She mocks in her first video those that have been harmed by Bill's teachings. She is a fake and fraud and her efforts to do a counter series have been met with a dismal failure. Amazon which sells her book is not a "threat" to Christians as she tries to paint in her first video. Your mantra of searching for facts and just the facts is disingenuous. The facts that Bill Gothard is a false teacher and that his ideas and teachings are harmful, and damaging are all the places. It is obvious you don't want to believe or accept them and instead want to listen to someone pretending to be a Christian, hiding who she is, mocks and harasses those on Shiny Happy People because the series has many implications for IFB who you work for as admitted by you on the internet.
    - JM December 4, 2024
      
      When did Alfred or Holly deny that she was Mormon? I don't recall ever seeing that. As such, nobody lied about anything on that front.
      
      And even if they did, that doesn't prove they always lie. Again, when you have facts you can follow, such as articles and people who are willing to be contacted, you can verify the claims. Holly did this. I followed up on them. Yes, I contacted some of those folks.
      
      She isn't lying about those things. As such, she is not a fraud.
      
      What I am doing is neither insincere nor disingenuous. It is called verification. And every claim, EVERY claim, is subject to this kind of verification. No, I cannot simply accept the stories here or anywhere. I have to be sure they can be verified, otherwise it is simple anecdote. Anecdote is not empirical proof. It is that simple.
      
      I'm sorry if that is a problem for you. I suggest you take a step back and look in the mirror. You might have a bigger problem than with me.
      
      Truth is true because it is truth. And truth is truth because it is true. We have to be consistent here. I'm trying to be. Always have been.
    - rob war December 4, 2024
      
      Alfred denied directly to me she and Sacred Honor are Mormon. I was also reached out to by a former IBLP person that they also confronted Alfred, and he denied this as well to them. This person was complaining to me about it, and it was someone that knew Bill Gothard rather well. She is a fraud and her efforts to counter Amazon have been a failure. For you to say well that isn't a lie is really curious and says something about your own standards.