Two members of Recovering Grace’s Leadership Team were interviewed today on About the author
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Dear friends in recovery,
I don't think the majority of the readers on Recovering Grace truly realize the extent of pathology that BG has exhibited. As tender and forgiving Christians, the readers may find it difficult to understand that we are actually talking about a very sick man. This is not a mean spirited comment. It is a fact. Reread the stories of the brave women who have shared on Recovering Grace. BG has a well-developed, pathological process for selecting, securing and destroying his prey, young homeschooled girls who trusted him. In truth, I would not be surprised if Headquarters and the women's rooms have secret passageways where BG roamed at night viewing the young women in their rooms. Voyeurism is a typical behavior of men with sexual obsessions. Don't believe an apology will change his behavior. He needs treatment. He is a sex addict that needs a program like Sex Addicts Anonymous, or another 12 step program. He is so skilled and clever at hiding his addictions that he created an entire curriculum to keep the congregation busy confessing their "secret sins" so that he could select his girls. Research sexual addictions and see that we are dealing with a man addicted in mammoth proportions. From previous investigations, it sounds like his father and brother were addicts too.
One more thing. He plagiarizes too. His booklet, "Power of the Spoken Blessing" is a summary of the beautiful book "The Blessing" by John Trent. I hope these thoughts help.
No, your thoughts don't help Lee! "Secret passageways where BG roamed at night...", you must have have "pathological imagination", or must be reading too much cheap fiction...
I agree that it is important to stick to the facts.
You risk turning this thing into the "Birther" movement.
I've seen everthing from the secret closets in North Woods Conference Center (for storing tables), to the half floor at Indianapolis, to the Sub Basement at Nashville, the morgue at Little Rock. There is now way something like that could be hidden for dozens of years. By the way, at HQ, most of the staff lives in individual homes.
Who needs a secret passage way when many of the 60 Watt lights are on in the girls' rooms at night. Just march outside and spread a blanket on the asphalt parking lot, lay down and look up. At that point, all he needs is a lens with a good zoom.
[sarcasm]
Yes.
No amount of 12 steps is going to fix 50 yrs of predatory actions. This type of sin gets fixed totally only with a purging of sin and it starts with brokeness. Even then, bars are the best thing so if they fall back into it they can't hurt anyone else. Castration doesn't even always help.
Will a transcript of the program be available in the future?
Thank you John and Kari for putting yourselves out there. May God continue to give you wisdom for every step
I just got through listening and it was very well done. I really think that the comment about integrity used in investigating a scandal was an excellent point. Many people question rapes, murders and other terrible things recorded in the OT (then they often use those things as reasons for not believing). Mentioning all those bad things that God's people did shows that God does not want to hide the what His people did. In fact, hiding bad things is proof of a false religion or cult, whereas throwing open the closet doors so all can see the sins and mistakes that were made did not slow God down or change His plan or love for us.
Yes, thank you, John and Kari. Your interview was well done. Your questions were answered directly and clearly. I pray this will help bring things to the light. Justice. Mercy. Humility.
I was reminded today that justice must happen in God's Sovereign time schedule--not mine. For the young ladies and the RG leadership it must be extremely difficult to continue to wait. You have been wading through this muck much longer than I have.
But because He is the One in charge, He knows why the timing is longer...than we want.
Nonetheless, I pray with you all for Justice for the terribly offended.
Well done. Its important to diversify the mediums through which this important information is told. This will help more mainstream, secular media outlets to access the information and put pressure on IBLP to undergo an external investigation. If they won't talk, we will.
John and Kari,
Thank you for doing this interview. This gets some very important exposure.
The number of confirmed victims is now at 50! Wow! Whever he is right now, I sure hope he does not have access to young girls. Sadly, people like him, addicted as they are, often find a way, unless they are proactively stopped.
Thank you for your heart and time in this whole thing.
I think the thing that made us decide to join ATI is the fact that as homeschoolers it offered the world, literally. The idea that our kids could go to a center somewhere and grow and learn along other homeschooled christian kids in an apprenticeship way was a great bonus!!!
We had attended a seminar in early 80's so it was an easy path in.
I will say the biggest thing that has grieved me beyond health is the fact that slowly we acclimated to the environment we submitted ourselves to and needed to submit to to be part. It was not acceptable to be part way.
Thankful beyond words for the GRACE of God and for you standing in the gap to be the voice to bring many to health.
Well done John, Kari and all of the RG team. You've done well in speaking articulately and bringing light to the dark places within IBLP.
Did anyone notice the song playing in the background of the radio interview, coming in and out of commercial breaks? I've heard this Coldplay song many times, but never stopped to look at the words. It's extremely applicable to this whole situation:
"I used to rule the world
Seas would rise when I gave the word
Now in the morning I sleep alone
Sweep the streets I used to own
I used to roll the dice
Feel the fear in my enemy's eyes
Listen as the crowd would sing
"Now the old king is dead! Long live the king!"
One minute I held the key
Next the walls were closed on me
And I discovered that my castles stand
Upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand
I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing
Roman Cavalry choirs are singing
Be my mirror, my sword and shield
My missionaries in a foreign field
For some reason I can't explain
Once you're gone there was never
Never an honest word
But that was when I ruled the world
It was the wicked and wild wind
Blew down the doors to let me in
Shattered windows and the sound of drums
People couldn't believe what I'd become
Revolutionaries wait
For my head on a silver plate
Just a puppet on a lonely string
Oh who would ever want to be king?
I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing
Roman Cavalry choirs are singing
Be my mirror, my sword and shield
My missionaries in a foreign field
For some reason I can't explain
I know Saint Peter won't call my name
Never an honest word
But that was when I ruled the world
Woahahahah oh, woahahah oh
Woahahahah oh, woahahah oh,
Woahahahah
I hear Jerusalem bells are ringing
Roman Cavalry choirs are singing
Be my mirror, my sword and shield
My missionaries in a foreign field
For some reason I can't explain
I know Saint Peter won't call my name
Never an honest word
But that was when I ruled the world
ooooooh ooh oooooh oh ooooooh oh oooooh ooh.
Coldplay - Viva La Vida Lyrics | MetroLyrics "
This is the youtube link for the song: http://youtu.be/dvgZkm1xWPE
thanks for my daily Coldplay.... too bad for those who can't partake of Coldplay (demonic beat and all that..)
My family noticed the song immediately. Thought it was kind of funny. It's as if it was written for this very occasion even though we know it means something else. We just debated that song a couple of months ago so it's fresh on our minds. Something we would not have been able to do 17 years ago before my husband & I took that big red book out to the burn pile. It's been a long time of recovering and we still have our times when we feel hurt by BG's teachings. I've followed many blogs speaking out about him over the years in hopes one day we would read his teachings had been destroyed, we are so happy he has finally been caught. I celebrated last week and there is nothing wrong with that at all!
actually, too bad for those addicted to it
too bad for anyone addicted to anything, coldplay and legalism included..especially legalism (tip: you won't know you are addicted, you will likely brag about it)
Grateful, drug addiction is real. Rock music addiction is not. Someone has been pulling your leg. Sorry to break it to you.
Wow, this interview was excellently done! God bless you for following through with this vitally important issue at hand!
My husband and I have to 2nd Donna's comment. The interview was wonderfully done. Kari and John - you make us proud to have you in the forefront. Thank you for all of your hard work. Thank you to the entire RG team - from those who are interviewed to those answering inquiries and emails. "For such a time as this"
I would like to see Saturday Night Live or Oprah do a program on BG. I sense that the survivors of BG are still very timid and afraid that God may strike them down if they let out their true feelings. We were betrayed. Where is the outrage? The interview said that now 50 women have come forward with their stories. In discussing this with a close friend who never attended anything but the Basic Youth Conference in the late 70s, I learned that her beautiful, blonde sister was approached by BG at a conference when she was 17. Her sister is beautiful. This occurred in the late 1970s. The woman is now 54. She said, "Oh yes, I remember BG coming up to me after a conference and telling me what a beautiful countenance I have." This man is a serial predator. Maybe if you weren't "pretty" enough to be one of "Bill's girls", you were spared the horror of him rubbing your leg. But you still may have been in the book room for hours on end, slaving over his curriculum while he rode his jet to and fro across the country "seeking who he may devour." People need to get angry. Remember Jesus in the temple?
Saturday Night Live??! That's a satire/comedy show. Perhaps you mean a more reputable news program? ;-)
I'm pretty sure that can be found in the well known book:
"Pick up Lines for Creepy Legalistic Old Dudes"
"My you have a nice countenance "
Translation: " You are one hot chick"
Actually, this whole case needs the ministrations of Dateline's Chris Hansen. He just loves to expose predators and fraudsters.
"Hi, I'm Chris Hansen, would you take a seat? "
Hi, I've been following Recovering Grace for a few months now. I had been watching "Big Love", and realized that the mormon polygamist cult represented on the show quite uncomfortably made me think of BG. I've attended the BG conference at least half a dozen times, and even went to the Advanced Seminar. Fortunately, our church was not as legalistic about BG's material (we listened to Christian rock, wore jeans and regular clothes, etc), but we did have a few families whose kids were more heavily involved with the home schooling. Anyways, I was inspired to comment after reading your comment, Lee. I, too, knew immediately that the allegations were true because of a similar experience...back in the 1990's, our youth group went to a conference, and we were so excited that our youth group had the opportunity to meet BG...the memory that has always stuck with me was that BG seemed absolutely smitten with a cute, blonde haired girl in our group, commenting on "what a beautiful countenance" she had. I remember feeling jealous, and trying to smile extra big and bright so he would comment on me as well. I've never been able to shake that experience, and now I know why...
Thank you John and Carrie for this good interview. I have read most every word on this website yet the spoken word was more beneficial.
If there is indeed a loving God I pray that he has mercy on my family. Almost too painful to talk about.
I'm kinda joking, but SNL, on its good days, has a way of making us laugh at the insanities of life which is good for the human soul, even the souls who are hurting from the abuse. I have a niece who uses humor to help her overcome her abuse from an elder in her church when she was only 12. I asked her once, "Honey, how do you overcome?" She said, "Auntie, I use humor and I joke about my abuser. This helps me from hurting too much." My heart goes out to the girls. Whatever it takes to help them heal is my vote. They are continually in my prayers:)
I do have a few questions. Where is Chris Hogan? Recovering Grace readers would like a courageous conversation. Where is Tom Harmon? I think BG's behavior is an example of how we can make choices but we can't choose the consequences. Where are the Speeds? Aren't we suppose to do whatever it takes? Where is William Federer? Is it easier to imagine the Arabs coming than facing the truth that we had a betrayer in our camp and his name is Bill Gothard? Where is David Gibbs? Many of the women who have courageously shared their stories are truly living on the edge. And the Duggars? Don't they have a lot of beautiful daughters? Why aren't we hearing from the key note speakers at all of the ATI conferences? I thought we were Christians. Doesn't this mean being accountable to one another and speaking the truth in love? Please, can we get some of the leaders from IBLP and ATI to speak up?
The Duggars aren't blonde. And maybe their hair is too curly instead of wavy. Or maybe it helps the organization more if they all stay home and do TV programs. Talk about easy advertising!
I agree. I really hope someone in leadership stands up instead of slinking away in shame, or pretending they didn't know. We can't heal by sweeping things under the rug. The bumps under the rug tend to rise up and squirm and trip us when we're not looking.
He would not target the Duggars. First they are too high profile.
He picked his victims carefully. The girls often had abuse in their backgrounds making them even more vulnerable. Predators have a sixth sense about this.
Also remember "Charlotte" and how she was an "encouragement case"? He picked someone who would not be believed in the first place and then drove a wedge in between her and her team leader by making the team leader get up at 4:30 in the morning to do wisdom searches. This kept everyone sleep deprived which is a key component in breaking people down and maintaining control. It keeps the mental capacity at a minimum.
Online devotional today that I want to share with other readers!
from STANDING STRONG THROUGH THE STORM (SSTS) -A daily devotional message by Paul Estabrooks
UNGRACE
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
Yesterday we concluded that “grace” is Christianity’s best gift to the world! It’s a force stronger than vengeance, stronger than racism, stronger than hate. But sadly to a world desperate for this grace, the church sometimes presents one more form of what Philip Yancey calls “ungrace.” Charles Swindoll in his book, The Grace Awakening, powerfully lists these enemies of grace as:
From without: legalism, expectations, traditionalism, manipulation, demands, negativism, control, comparison, perfectionism, competition, criticism, pettiness and a host of others.
From within: pride, fear, resentment, bitterness, an unforgiving spirit, insecurity, fleshly effort, guilt, shame, gossip, hypocrisy, and many more (pp.5-14).
Nothing has the power to change us from within like the freedom that comes through grace. And grace has very practical outworking in our lives.
· A greater appreciation for God’s gifts
Those who claim the freedom God offers gain an appreciation for the gifts that come with life: the free gift of salvation, life, laughter, music, beauty, friendship and forgiveness.
Less time and energy being critical or concerned about other’s choices
When you begin to operate in the context of grace and freedom, you become increasingly less petty. You will allow others room to make their own decisions in life, even though you may choose otherwise. A grace-full Christian is one who looks at the world and others through “grace-tinted lenses.”
More tolerant and less judgmental
When you are so involved in your own pursuit of grace, you’ll no longer lay guilt trips on those with whom you disagree.
A giant step toward maturity
As your world expands, thanks to an awakening of your understanding of grace, your maturity will enlarge. You will become more like Jesus and you will never be the same!
RESPONSE: Today I will determine to avoid those things that prompt “ungrace” in my life.
PRAYER: Lord, I don’t want to live any longer in the same old ways. Help me to become more like Jesus.
STANDING STRONG THROUGH THE STORM (SSTS) -A daily devotional message by Paul Estabrooks
© 2011 Open Doors International. Used by permission
“When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the righteous stand firm forever.” Proverbs 10:25
Right now millions of Christians face persecution because of their faith in Christ. Register to receive the Open Doors USA Weekly Prayer Alert email. Join alongside thousands of others praying for our brothers and sisters worldwide to stand strong in the midst of their struggles. Also learn more about countries where the persecution of Christians is most severe by visiting the Open Doors website today.
I love what you guys at this website are doing, but I don't think I've seen much about this particular aspect about Bill's wrong teaching, and I'd like to throw this in, please.
One thing Bill Gothard did wrong that has been particularly harmful to me is that he preached a prosperity gospel. He basically taught that "You can't outgive God." That is, if you give your money away to God's causes or to his people in need that God will see to it that you never lack for this world's goods. Bill would back that up with story after story about miraculous gifts he would receive, in just the right amount and at just the right time, as a result of his personal giving.
What he didn't teach is that the Bible very clearly says in several places that if you don't have wealth, your "friends" will avoid you, your family will despise you, your words will not be heard, and even your neighbors will hate you. If you don't have wealth, people do not care why you don't have it. They don't make an exception for you and befriend you if you gave your money away to help God's kingdom, help the poor, or whatever. They only care about whether you have the wealth now. And from what I've seen, if you have wealth they generally don't care how you got it, just that you have it. I've never seen an exception to this in all my fifty-one years, yet only recently has it sunk in how true the Bible is on this subject.
Pr.19:7: All the brethren of the poor do hate him: how much more do his friends go far from him? he pursueth them with words, yet they are wanting to him.
Pr.14:20: The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends.
Pr.19:4: Wealth maketh many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour.
Ec.9:16: Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.
It would have been nice to hear in a seminar that if you give your money away, even if you give it to the Institute, or even if you give it away to missionaries with the best of motives and do it secretly, once you give it away you're toast as far as anyone wanting to have anything to do with you goes. You can be as friendly and congenial as a person can be. It won't make any difference.
I gave away over three hundred thousand dollars to various organizations, missionaries, churches, Christian friends in need, and other Christian causes, including fifty thousand dollars to IBLP. I did that mostly in my thirties, and some in my forties. I'm a professional with a good paying job, but I went broke three times, to the point where I couldn't pay my meager rent on time because I didn't have enough. On the third time that I went broke I woke up. Yes, it took three times of going broke to wake me up. And no, I'm not a bad steward that somehow misspent his money through carelessness. I've entered virtually every transaction I've made into Quicken since 1992, so I know where it all went.
The truth is, when you give your money away all that happens to you, other than the joy you may experience, is you don't have that money any more. You don't miraculously get it back down the road. And if you give away enough over and over again to the point of seeming poor, you will be despised by everyone you know. The Bible says so. It doesn't matter how much you pray or how responsible of a steward you are, once you give your wealth away, you're done as far as people wanting to have anything to do with you goes (it's not their fault; it's just human nature). No one is going to miraculously give you some gift out of the blue. You're not going to miraculously get some check in the mail like Bill Gothard said he would always get. If you give your money away, you're just going to be poor, and because you're poor people will despise you, they will avoid you, and your words will not be heard.
Yes, Jesus said "Give and it shall be given unto you," but it doesn't mean that you will be given your wealth back if you give it away. I have some ideas about what it may mean, but I'm not sure. I do know for certain what it doesn't mean.
On the plus side, I have learned some valuable lessons that I would not have learned had I taken a different route. And a few years ago, after waking up to the truth, I stopped giving away so much and started saving the money I'm earning. I hope to have enough soon to move out of the small, single-wide trailer in the trailer park in which I live and buy a median-level house, with no debt. So I'm technically not poor any more, but it still looks like I am. I am looking forward to people wanting to be friends with me. Sound a little pathetic, I know, but it's true. And I don't care.
Walt,
I want to join in with those who say that we care about you, that you don't need to "deserve" being prayed for, and that we are expectantly hoping for God to bring great healing to your life.
I wanted to comment specifically on the verses you quoted from Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. I think it's important to remember the difference between "prescriptive" verses (commands) and "descriptive" verses (describing the way that the world tends to work). NOWHERE in Scripture does God say that it's OK to look down on someone or avoid them because they are poor. Quite the reverse! In both the Old and New Testaments, God commands that we not show favoritism either to rich or poor people; we are to give the same respect to all, regardless of economic status.
In the verses you quoted, Solomon was just noting that unfortunately, our sinful human nature doesn't tend to operate this way. We do tend to shun the poor. That's not the way it's supposed to be, and in a healthy Christian community that is not the way it is, but it's the way that the world tends to work. But don't ever tell yourself "the Bible says I deserve to be rejected because I'm poor," because that's not what it's saying at all.
I'm sorry that the teachings of IBLP gave you such bad financial advice. A really balanced, Biblical financial counselor would tell you to find the happy medium between generous giving and prudent planning for the future. I believe that both are important and that either one can become a bad thing if taken to the extreme. Ultimately, good stewardship is fundamentally necessary to sustained, lifelong generosity, because as you've discovered, if you give it all away at the start you have nothing to give later on.
Kudos on recognizing the false teaching you heard as "prosperity gospel." That teaching poisons giving, because it takes your focus off the joy of being part of God's work and puts it on what you expect to get back, which steals away the whole spiritual purpose of your gift.
I will pray in particular that you find REAL Christian friends very soon, who love and care about you whether you're doing well financially (or emotionally, or spiritually!) or not.
Thank you very much, Vivian.
Walt,
Your post deeply concerns me. Would someone with much more maturity than I have please reply to him when you have the time? I am so very, very sorry about your experiences, Walt. Our God is faithful and just. He sees everything and knows our hearts. I have experienced that to some degree, but thankfully we have had people who truly have loved us though we are not wealthy people. In fact, in our early married years we gave beyond 10%...then got into debt not realizing how difficult it is to "make it" on one income (we chose for me to stay at home and then home school). I then worked p/t out of our home. Now, we are in a healthy place again. The churches and friends we have had are simply not like that...we have removed ourselves from worldly believers.
One more thing...when I was in college, I took one semester at a community college and rode the city bus there every morning. I don't think I've ever been as significantly impacted by watching a stranger in all my life. There was another young woman on this bus, from a lower socio-economic lifestyle than I was from, and her face actually seemed to glow every morning while she read her Bible on the bus...she seemed truly humble, totally oblivious to everyone else. She happened to be African American and most of the bus were Caucasian. I remember just admiring her so much. Here I was, from a financially well-off background and I didn't have near the peace that she had. I have thought of her many times over the years.
There are many verses in the Bible that promise blessings here and in heaven for those who are givers with the right heart motives.
I pray now that God will encourage you and give you the right number of very significant relationships with believers who value most what God values.
Some additional thoughts regarding Walt's post:
I'm not familiar enough with BG's teachings regarding giving financially. Do his materials not teach principles regarding good money management, including saving? Do his materials overly emphasize giving money for God's kingdom work?
There is a definite undercurrent of something like the prosperity gospel in Gothardism. Whether the subject is giving, or making rules ("setting standards"), or fasting, whatever, a person always has the feeling that you have to do a little bit more. If you have memorized verses, the breakthrough will come when you memorize chapters; if you memorize chapters, it will come when you memorize books. If the subject is fasting, God will bless you when you fast for days at a time, but now you need to fast for 40 days. Never enough. So with giving, if you give a little, you will have a feeling that God's blessing is holding off until you give more, and more, and more. It's the carrot on a stick, and you never quite reach the carrot.
Basically in prosperity ministries a person is helped along by the same mindset as casinos use to keep people gambling. A person's thoughts and desires are moved forward by focusing on the payoff.
I have worked in ministry off and on for 40 years. My answer to rewards is "My work is my reward. I get to see God's mighty hand at work in the lives He loves. Anything more is God's business."
I know these verses are about lending, but often times people give to God's work as if they are guaranteed a return. By definition that is lending if we expect to have our giving returned.
Luke 6:34 "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
Walt, I am not saying that you had this attitude. I don't know your heart so I will assume you gave without expecting return. But you are right Bill Gothard has taught through his life example that a return should be expected.
With the 2008 recession my husband and I lost our very profitable business. Most friends fled. Many asked if we were being chastised. Many assumed hidden sin. We did have a clearer picture of the opinions others had for us. Very interesting time. Lots of love needed to be extended to others by us during that time.
But God in His love provided a different way for us to earn a living, and used the testimony He gave us as we worked through the problems to glorify Him more. As others saw money was not our god, and we didn't crumble with what was lost they became curious about our joy in devastating circumstances. As they witnessed the creative things God directed us to do they were surprised. One family member told us that our family thought we would be a burden to carry, yet no one was asked to carry a thing. God did the lifting, we praised and thanked Him for His great love, and others realized they had nothing to fear in our loss. They slowly came back into a relationship with us.
We also have not recovered financially, but I can guarantee anything we possessed with eternal value was held secured by the Hand of God. These are my personal verses concerning my attitude in giving.
Psalms 24:1-6
1The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it;
2for he founded it on the seas
and established it on the waters.
3Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
4The one who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not trust in an idol
or swear by a false god.
5They will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God their Savior.
6Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek your face, God of Jacob.
Our reward, our blessing is Knowing Him.
Nancy2, I would say that it's more than BG implied that a return could be expected. I would say rather that there was a general sense that other people were having breakthroughs, deep insights, new freedoms, etc., and that BG himself was constantly having a new insight, a new freedom, something new and exciting - the excitement at a seminar or conference would be palpable. People wanted on that train. In my mind, it's not so much that "a return" was held out as possible, but THE return, the exciting thing that you need from God (be it wisdom, freedom, success, etc.) was always on the other side of this big commitment. Other people seem to be getting these payouts from God; you have the feeling you must be doing it wrong, or not doing enough or something. And that becomes very much like the casino analogy, where people just keep throwing good money after bad trying to get these longed-for results. Except people don't realize they are in a casino that is rigged against them - they think they are climbing a mountain and that the peak is just up around the next bend. But they keep going around that next bend, and the peak keeps not being there.
MatthewS, I think I see.
When I hear people quoting that we can't out give God my response automatically goes to, "Of course not! He gave His one and only Beloved Son." So it is difficult for me to jump to "Wow! Let me give more so I will get more!"
I do know what it feels like to be called by the Holy Spirit to a task that requires a lot of energy and resources. I only give what I have been called on to give. I also understand how important it is to move with the Lord's timing and not my own. There is so much the Lord helps us work through that the resources are only a small part to any work. As one works within a calling there is a constant waiting on the Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit to move things along. Things happen that only the Holy Spirit moving in people's hearts can pull it together. In the end, the work glorifies the Lord and not the individual. I'm good with that because I too rejoice in His goodness as I work to that which I was called.
What is BG's definition of calling? Does he believe men are to call others to give of time and resources?
"...the power of the Holy Spirit to move things along. Things happen that only the Holy Spirit moving in people’s hearts can pull it together."
Notice how lacking the work of the Holy Spirit is in the foundational statement, "Every problem in life can be traced to seven non-optional principles found in the Bible. Every person, regardless of culture, background, religion, education, or social status, must either follow these principles or experience the consequences of violating them." (http://billgothard.com/teaching/basicprinciples)
In other words, in Gothardism, problems are not an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to walk with you through them. Rather, they are God's big stamp of disapproval, declaring, "you're doing it wrong!"
Matthew S, I will never get use to the formula that BG = No Holy Spirit. (Or very little movement by the Holy Spirit)
It is beyond my comprehension how he got there.
It's tragic. This quote said it so well: "Some people believed it [Basic Seminar] was really more self-help than saved-by-grace. In fact, some biblical scholars have essentially argued that if you scrubbed any mention of the salvation message out of the IBYC seminar, you still had the IBYC seminar."
the following quote is from a March 14, article over at Roger E. Olsens's blog. Most of it is about the young, restless, reformed movement, but he draws many parallels to Gothard and his movement. I found it very helpful, and interesting.
the article is titled "What Draws People into the Young, Restless, Reformed, Movement"
"The Gothard movement grew and spread and was “all the talk” among evangelicals throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s. It finally somewhat fizzled out in the 1990s while leaving a lasting impression and legacy.
One thing I noticed about fellow seminarians and others who followed Gothard and promoted his message as “the solution” for every behavioral problem was their lack of critical thinking. They did not seem open to any criticism, however gentle, of the man or his message. As I watched and listened to them carefully, and often attempted to engage them in dialogue about the Gothard message (which I regarded as overly simplistic if not downright dangerous), I noticed a common tendency to equate Gothard’s message with God’s truth and reject any opportunity to sit back, consider it critically, and question its ultimacy.
It seems to me that many “Gothardites” (all that I met) were reluctant to think for themselves; they seemed to need someone like Gothard, an evangelical guru or pope, to think for them. In their eyes and to their ears he had all the answers. His message became their ideology and crutch, a substitute for the risk of critical thinking for themselves. They struck me as immature (even those in their middle years). They were uncomfortable with any ambiguity or uncertainty; they craved someone like Gothard to put the mess of life into some order for them so they wouldn’t have to deal with it themselves."
thanks; greg r
Thank you to those who have responded to my post so far. This happens to be the most difficult time I've ever had in my life, and writing that out for others to read has helped me, as has reading your replies.
I don't really blame Bill Gothard much, I only wish he had been more balanced and presented the other side of things, where it's possible to give away so much that you wind up poor and alone, and where no one wants to be your friend. If I had known what the future might hold I might have been a little more reserved, but I wasn't pressured or put under guilt to give. I think I gave as a cheerful giver, and did what I thought God was leading me to do. I just had no idea things would turn out like they have. I frankly don't know what to do with verses such as Luke 6:38 and 2 Corinthians 9:6-8. My experience simply does not line up with those verses, and that fact recently began to weigh very heavily on me.
In fact, it weighed so heavily that I did not respond well at all as a Christian, and I sinned badly. I went through a time a couple of weeks ago where I became angry at God, and drank too much alcohol for several days in a row, and it damaged my health. I have since repented of that sin, but I have recurring short, one-second headaches now that are still not completely gone after 2 weeks. I have seen a doctor, who suggested that the drinking binge made me deficient in vitamin B-12, and to take a daily B-12 supplement. It seems to be helping some, but the head pains have not gone away, and they take an emotional toll that is very difficult to handle.
Brothers and sisters in Christ, I BEG YOU TO PRAY FOR ME that God would take these head pains away. I have learned my lesson. I am fully repentant. I intend with all my heart to never over drink again, and to be temperate in all things. My real name is not Walt. Please really pray for me to be healed.
I just prayed for you, too, Walt. I pray that Jesus will heal your headaches and reveal the depths of his love for you in a very real, personal, and tangible way. Thank you for sharing with such openness and rawness the difficulties you are facing. You are not alone in these struggles!
Walt, I will definitely pray for you. I know how difficult financial problems are and how others respond. You are not alone. I know our Lord is caring you through this.
Walt this is what I do with Luke 6:38 and 2 Corinthians 9:6-8:
John 14:2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4"And you know the way where I am going."
I know He's preparing a place for you. I know He sees your suffering. I know He knows your name.
I do pray for you right now, Walt. May God bring healing to you, may he comfort and encourage you and give you true and lasting victory. May he give you a strong, supportive local body of believers, if you don't have one, that will be just the right fit for you. May he lead you intimately in all areas of your life.
In the strong name of Jesus!
A sister in Christ
Thank you very much, Beverly, Nancy2 and Anonymous (along with anyone else who may have been praying for me about my head pains). I really appreciate your having prayed for me, and the replies you wrote were very comforting last night. I believe the pains are very gradually getting milder as the days go on, and are hopefully on the way out, but they have been emotionally very taxing, especially toward the end of the day. I would really appreciate your continued prayers for me.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
Please pray for me. I am having the hardest time of my life with these head pains. Please pray that God will heal me. I'm sorry to be so far off-topic, and moderators, I will stop. It's just that I feel more kinship with the readers of this site than any other group I know, and I am desperate.
I realize that I'm especially undeserving because of the fact that I brought the pain onto myself by over drinking, but please pray anyway. I realize almost none of you reading this would have fallen into the same sin I did, but I really do believe in Jesus Christ with all my heart, and really am a Christian. I am fully repentant of that sin as well as all others that I have sometimes fallen into.
I have been thinking that maybe I should try to find a local church and follow the practice in James 5:14-15 of calling for the elders of the church for prayer and anointing. But I may not be able to find a church that is very like-minded with myself. So if it turns out that the Lord wants me to go that route I really need him to give me some good guidance. I've lived where I am for eight years. Early on I tried to find a church whose beliefs were similar enough to my own that I should meet with them, but I didn't find one, and I figured it was better to not compromise on certain things, even things that make up the main message that I think God wanted me to spread to other believers (regarding following the Bible about church). But things are different now, and I am really in need.
The only Christian friend I have is a man who lives over 2,000 miles away. I've been talking with him some through this trial, and he's been very helpful. And your prayers and your kind replies have meant a lot to me and have been very helpful.
Walt, you don't need to be worthy to be prayed for, if that were the case no one would be lifted up in prayer. Of course I will continue to pray for you. It is good to hear you are moving in a positive direction. I'll definitely pray for God to heal your pain.
I do think finding a church would help, especially with the loneliness. It can be stressful, but the Holy Spirit will indeed guide you. You may not agree on everything, but it can still be a way to enjoy worship and growth with other parts of the body of Christ. What my husband and I did after moving was go the different churches websites and listen to the sermons. Then we chose the one that most closely matched our walk and understanding. We still have differences at times, but nothing essential enough to distract our worship. All in all it is a good relationship.
God bless you, dear sister. Thank you.
My husband and I will pray for you, Walt. A thought came to my regarding you...perhaps a chiropractor could help you with your headaches. I have seen a godly chiropractor from time to time and it has been amazing how much he has helped me, even with headaches due to being out of alignment. I would highly recommend finding a Christian one, if you are able to. Also, one that does not push you to keep going long-term, as some do.
About a local church. Yes, and remember Hebrews 10:25. Please persevere in finding a healthy local church... In the meantime and for a while, it might also be God's will to seek out godly counseling through a trained Christian counselor. Thanks to the internet, you could probably easily fine one.
Also, I am encouraged through Christian radio.
Thank you very much for your prayers and advice.
Walt, I tend to think the same way you do: "almost none of you...would have fallen into the same sin I did." However, EVERYONE has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)--we're ALL undeserving of God's mercy! I found the idea in "The subtle power of spiritual abuse" to be particularly liberating: "Trying harder is the incorrect response to spiritual rules and will result in either self-righteousness or more tiredness. The correct response is to REST again in the performance of Christ, on the Cross for life, and through His Spirit for living...we don’t produce the fruit, we simply bear fruit that God produces [Romans 7:4]...Hebrews 10:19-22 shows that a clean conscience and pure heart are never possible on the basis of religious behaviors. And besides, they are ALREADY ours because of Jesus." As Phil Vischer puts it: "God loves you. Not because of what you can do or even because of what you can become if you work really, really hard. He loves you because he made you. He loves you just the way you are. He loves you even when you aren't doing anything at all."
Amen!
Walt,
A church can help you and give you a support group. I think you would find that every person on this site has a story, I venture that some may surprise you.
It might be wise to seek a professional therapist. I would even say it doesn't have to be a religious therapist. (Don't stone me:))
Hang in there. Working through the hard times makes the little things in life that much more sweet.
Ryan, thank you, and thank you, Emee. I actually contacted a local church pastor a few days ago begging for help and prayers, and he had no sympathy at all, and wanted nothing to do with me. But that experience renewed my determination to find a group of like minded believers with whom I can meet for church. I spent several hours yesterday working toward that goal, and am looking forward to finding such a group.
My occasional head pains are a little better, and I think they're a little less frequent, but sometimes it's pretty tough still. Thank you very much to anyone who prayed for me. I went to see my doctor again today to ask if I should do anything else, and he said give it some more time, since I do seem to be very slowly getting better.
And by the way, this incident has been the reproof and chastisement that I needed in order to cause me to fully repent of the sin of sometimes getting drunk. I figured since I wasn't hurting anyone, and a lot of times was not technically drunk in the legal sense of being over 0.08 BAC, and the fact that I would never drive drunk, that the occasional times when I would actually drink enough to get drunk were not all that bad of a sin. But now I fully understand why drunkenness itself is a bad enough sin to be listed as one that excludes a person from the kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. I now appreciate that fact in a way that I didn't beforehand, and I thank God that he allowed things to go as they have in order to bring me to repentance. At this point I'm just begging him for mercy and to speed up the healing process. Please pray the same for me.
Walt, I care that your first attempt was rebuffed so coldly--it shouldn't have happened, and it's clearly not the church for you. Congratulations for not giving up the search for a local body of believers; I know the process is very challenging and often discouraging, but it really is worth it! [I've found listening to online sermons from prospective churches to be a low-stress method to zero in on churches that might be a good fit.]
As Ryan suggested, please consider seeking professional therapy; speaking from personal experience, they can be very helpful!
Re: I Corinthians 6:10, please look at verse 11, which is the best part IMO: [Sinners] "will not inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But YOU were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Do you see that? What we once did no longer can define us, if we've accepted Christ's sacrifice on our behalf!
John 8:1-11 is also a wonderful passage. In essence, Jesus, the only sinless One, the only one qualified to 'cast the first stone' at the sinner, not only REFUSES to cast it, but then takes the place of the sinner, and dies in his stead at Calvary! That's the amazing grace and mercy of God; under the law we are condemned, but with Christ we are no longer under ANY condemnation (Romans 8:1). And the forgiveness we have in Christ is a result of that self-sacrificial gift of Christ, NOT because of our 'good' behavior, but because of his free, loving decision to love us.
Not to belabor my point, but the authors of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" put it so eloquently:
"Whenever I become aware of a sin—a behavior resulting from looking to my own performance instead of to what Jesus did on the Cross—there is no shame. It is no final “proof” that I am unworthy of God’s grace and empowerment because I have temptation or I have sinned. It simply means that for a time, I again attempted to draw 'life' out of wrong sources and actions. It is the process of the Christian life to reteach my mind and soul...
I do this, first of all, by responding to guilt as a “spiritual nerve-ending.” Guilt tells me I am headed toward death, not toward God and life. I then go to God and say I’m sorry. He forgives me. It is OVER. I may still have to live with some consequences of my behaviors. But I do not have to hide from God. And I do not have to scramble around, trying to fix my life in order to earn back spiritual points that I lost: There were no points. My struggle is still the same: to hang on to Jesus, and to live consistent with who I am and what I have in Him. If I remember who I am and what I have and my behavior hits the mark, there is no self-righteousness. I feel grateful. I go to God and say, 'Thank you.'…The Christian life really is, first and foremost, a struggle to simply, purely, 'trust in God.' Continue to rest, we say, as you did in the beginning of your Christian walk, in what God has done and promises to do."
If you want to read more, there's an excellent chapter-by-chapter summary that starts here:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/05/introduction-to-the-subtle-power-of-spiritual-abuse/#more
Praying for all of us (myself included) that "instead of earning, proving, or pleasing, we can do what we do just because Jesus loves us and we love Him."
Thanks to John and Kari for the interview.
I believe Kari mentioned that Gothard often engaged his favorite girls in "long, deep, eye gazes".
Interestingly, I distinctly remember him saying (in a young ladies counseling seminar at Knoxville, probably in about 1992/1993) that the young ladies were to be especially careful to look away when young men ("fellas") try to hold their gaze. He said a young lady would risk falling in love with the young man unless she looked away. I believe he also said young men would try to get young ladies to gaze into their eyes in order to have more emotional influence over them. The instruction to look down or look away to avoid the deep eye gazing came up (from Bills own mouth) a number of times.
Does anyone else remember this?
Now that we know Bill enjoyed gazes with the girls, it does seem like he was trying to get them to do (privately with him) exactly what he (publicly) commanded them to avoid.
Yes, I remember him saying a number of times that a girl was to look at young men at "half-mast." He would demonstrate by closing his eyes half way which would cause him to lift his chin in the air. The girls would laugh and I thought anyone who did that would look like he did; pompous, proud and stuck-up looking down on everyone else. I probably often had the look naturally and it actually got guys to chase me as hard-to-get. Funny formulas that of course don't always have the result intended.
[…] to have opportunity to communicate with both Christian and secular media outlets. Last Monday, Dr. Cornish and Ms. Underwood were interviewed on “Issues, Etc,” a Christian talk radio show th…. In the 40-minute interview, they were able to share some of their personal history growing up in […]
As a comment on the radio interview- which I thought was well done- I was disappointed that the level Gothard reached in his sexual harassment was not explained or really even mentioned. Kari got no further than footsie, eye-gazing, holding hands, etc. What about "Charlotte's" story and the other 4 alleged victims of molestation? That brings what Bill did to a whole new level. It sure did for me. The rest of the stuff before that story was disturbing, but not shocking or what I imagine most people would consider gravely serious.
I am so grateful for your help in bringing the truth to the surface so the Truth our Lord Jesus can bring healing to so many of us. I was a faithful follower of Bill Gothard for about 25 years from the early 70's to the mid 90's as an attender, usher, right hand man to the reagonal leader, on the committee and setup chairman it was exciting to see so many come to better follow God's Word. I would try to faithfully apply principals to my life but it seemed that ability to overcome my weaknesses would drain away between seminars. A good friend who also was deeply involved and on paid staff came to realize that Jesus needed to have supremacy and no one and nothing else. He shared it with Bill and his beliefs were not agreed with, it would have greatly changed IBLP for the better and Bill was not willing to change so my friend had to leave. I have found the grace of Christ alone overcomes my sin and for that I marvel at how good God is to me, yet it is a constant need in this life to walk with Him. I have relatives who are still strong followers of the principals and some can't hear me. I pray that Romans 8:28 will be true in this situation and God will bring good out of this for those who love the Lord and He will be gloryified! The accounts of Bill's relationship with girls is new to me but all of the teachings would also need to be considered to sort out the good from the bad. This dilemma is not new as we look back in history and how Luther and others confronted false teaching.
I have just recently listened to the radio interview and learned of your site. I had only minimal involvement in a few seminars decades ago. By God's grace I found the way of sanctifying grace somehow on my own and left the seminar stuff with its rules and steps behind me. BUT, I am utterly shocked at what I have read on your site about Bill's improprieties with young girls. As one who serves the Lord myself, I keep thinking how critical our life with God is, and how much more important the reality of that is than any "ministry" or work for the Lord. To know Christ and to live in honest fellowship with Him trumps all else. Every servant of God must take Paul's example with utter seriousness:
2Co 1:12 For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.
Bill taught on the conscience, but somehow he let his own conscience be seared. What a warning to us all! Finally, I believe if we see the seriousness of the Judgment Seat of Christ, where we will be recompensed for our works as a believer, we will be very careful about our behavior. I fear for Bill and his review at the Judgment Seat of Christ if he does not have a full dealing and clearance with God before that day.