I had a smattering of random dots on a field of a thousand points. Reading the testimony of “Meg” a few weeks ago allowed me to connect some of those dots for the first time in 21 years. Her story struck a cold pang in my heart when it dawned on me that she was the secretary who had replaced me. While the lines that she described being crossed were further out than I had experienced, her accounts hit strangely close to home.
The first memory that I have of meeting Bill Gothard was at a counseling seminar at the Northwoods Conference Center in Watersmeet, Michigan. It was 1989, and I was a brand-new student in the Advanced Training Institute of America (ATIA, later ATI, the IBLP homeschool program). I was walking past the head table in the dining room when Bill suddenly broke away from the bustle of students around him and strode over to talk to me. I was dumbstruck.
Taking my hand, he leaned in with a boyish grin and said, “I’ve been watching you. Did you know you have the brightest countenance in this room?” Memories grow hazy after 25 years, but that particular moment is highlighted in my mind, and it struck the tone for the next four years of my life. I was seventeen.
For the life of me, I couldn’t figure out why in the world he would choose me, but Bill wanted me to come work at the Headquarters—and right away. It wasn’t long before I was working in his correspondence department. It soon became clear that I was special to him. I could make him laugh, and that was something I particularly enjoyed doing. He would always say, “You’re such a character,” and he regularly reminded me, “You are my energy-giver.”
It seems needless to outline too many details about my daily interactions with Bill Gothard because I was given the same type of singling-out attention that has now become a familiar pattern: the nudges and whispers and too-close-for-comfort car and van rides, the fixation on altering my appearance, the seclusive demands of time, the unwarranted attention, the controlling protectiveness and verbal undermining of my parents, the deeply personal questions—and, yes, the foot thing.
Bill said my naturally curly hair was, “distracting and worldly.” He revealed that, “It might be a temptation to men that you have such wild curly hair.” I started using hot rollers. He informed me that, although I had a “beautiful closed smile,” the small gap in my teeth was distracting. He encouraged me to have it fixed–for free. [Editor’s note: This procedure was performed by the same license-revoked dentist who participated in Meg’s dental work at HQ.] Bill asked, “Have you ever considered having your teeth whitened?” He pointed out that I should consider having the tiny mole on my face removed. He noted a very dim birthmark on the side of my face that nobody ever notices. My already shaky perception of my appearance grew worse. I was beginning to realize that I was even more awkward-looking than I had previously thought.
Living like this just became normal to me. Even though Bill treated me in a way that would have gotten others sent home, I justified it in my mind. I simply could not believe that a man of God would intentionally be inappropriate. I really didn’t know how to handle it, but the disconcerting emotions that I experienced were eased by the wonderful times I shared with my darling girl friends. The constant inward compulsion to continue serving God with a grateful and cheerful spirit deadened the growing alarm in my heart.
It was while we were on a plane during a 1992 New Zealand/Australia IBLP trip that everything came to a deafening crescendo. The way that I felt on that plane made me realize for the first time, in bright lights, that something was not right. And the moment Bill reached down, grabbed my ankle, and began to move his hand up my leg, something snapped inside of me. It was from there on out that I began to feel my heart cower away from him, and the process of separating myself emotionally began.
Shortly after that trip, my dad and I both approached Bill about our concerns, first privately, and then with other witnesses. His apology expressed sorrow over our misinterpretation of his intentions. He assured me that his behavior was simply that of an affectionate father. He explained it all away. I was torn in my heart because I knew that this was not any way that my father would ever treat me, but I didn’t know how to express it. My parents decided it was time for me to come home.
Very few people knew the real reason I left. Leaving suddenly without a “reasonable” explanation brought a significant degree of embarrassment. I was disappointed and confused. I doubted myself and partially believed that somehow I had imagined all of it—as Bill had suggested. Maybe I was delusional? He expressed that he would never have continued the way he was treating me if he had sensed my discomfort. In fact, he told me a particular story about a young woman who had made it clear that she did not appreciate his attentions by repelling him and acting coldly. He explained that men can adjust their conduct toward young ladies by being discerning of their responses. I felt ashamed because I had failed to adequately indicate my uneasiness. After going home, I knew I must keep silent because it would be disloyal to share an “evil report.” I wondered if I would be painted as presumptuous and paranoid, and this also added an extra dose of silencing fear. That fear was confirmed to be well-founded when a friend later relayed that Bill had told her a story about my dad and me.
She recalls “…He told me that you had left his office because one day you were stepping down from the van and must have stumbled or something and he put out his hand to stop you falling, and that you must have objected to him putting his hand on your back, because your father called him demanding you to go home. He said it with an air of bemusement, like you were just very touchy.” This anecdote was a half-truth that seemed to cast himself in a victim’s light.
My father did not take confronting Bill Gothard lightly. It was done with great trepidation, and it took courage. My father is truly the meekest man I know. He did not approach Bill in a demanding fashion, as Bill suggested; he did it in a spirit of deep love and concern. This “grievance” that Bill reported to be the only cause for my leaving is not even an incident that I remember, and his implication that it was the sole factor for my going home gave the impression of mockery and belittlement. In retrospect, my friend wondered if it was an attempt to condition her to be more receptive to his advances.
My family and I hoped that my experience was an isolated incident, and that the Lord would work in Bill’s heart to be more cautious, but it appears that the pattern continued. A few years after I left Headquarters, my non-ATI husband and I were in the Chicago area and I wanted to show him where I had lived as a teenager. It was pretty deserted because much of the staff had already left to attend the annual ATIA conference. When we walked into the Staff Center and stepped into Bill’s office, he was sitting on the couch with a young girl. They were the only ones in the building.
Bill immediately jumped up and my husband recalls that “It was like walking in on two teenagers.” Of course I had shared my Oak Brook experiences with my husband, but I had mostly focused on my countless positive memories and just skimmed the surface of my misgivings. When my husband came upon this scene and quickly made the connections in his mind, a deep anger and sadness welled up inside him. The conversation with Bill was brief and extremely awkward. When we left the Staff Center, the mood was somber.
My husband brokenly asked me, “How did you work for this man for so long?” He could not understand why I had downplayed his actions toward me and wondered how someone who repeatedly holds a double standard could possibly be trusted as the president of a ministry.
Hope always believes. We want to believe the best about Bill. But when we stand back and evaluate his actions with our eyes on Jesus and our hope in Him, it leaves us questioning. We don’t expect Bill to be perfect. We all fall short. But how should we respond when we fall?
I have been thinking so much about the verse, “It is to a man’s glory to overlook an offense.” Overlooking an offense requires acknowledging the sin that was there. And yes, we have done that. Over time, I have experienced the freedom that comes from forgiving an unrepentant heart. It takes something supernatural to do it, and it feels unnatural, but healing and freedom can come without true repentance from our offender. And part of that freedom is accepting that even though the Enemy “intended it for harm, God meant it for good.”
In my situation, it was just a few months after coming home from Oak Brook that my future husband and I met for the first time. Our paths might never have crossed without that “upset” to my plans. I don’t say this lightly because I would never want to convey that God approves or tolerates evil to accomplish His will; He is always grieved by it (and in my case it was much milder than some have reported). But God’s comfort is extended to the afflicted and gives bright hope for tomorrow, even from the ruins of abuse.
The exposure of wrong-doing is overwhelming and the denial is heart-breaking, but I have grown to a firm resolve that covering it up has served no biblical purpose of righteousness. God used my time at Oak Brook to bless me with so many precious and lasting treasures, but I cannot ignore the real sorrow over the hurt as well. I have been in much tearful prayer that the Holy Spirit would guide us to restore our beloved brother in a spirit of gentleness. God has given me a voice—not to be a judge, but to be a witness of the truth that I know. Now is the time to trust God for justice and pray with a unified heart that the final outcome will bring healing and hope to all, including Bill Gothard.
Telling my story is scary, and it’s the last thing in the world I would ever have chosen to do, but the many women who have been hurt are worth standing up for. We are a family. I can find rest in knowing that the innocent have been warned, that we stood up for the oppressed, and that we have sounded the sirens. Forgiveness is what will free the broken.
[Editor’s note: The following was written by Robin’s parents, Fred and Barb.]
Robin’s Parents’ Story
A few weeks ago Robin told us how women who had worked for Bill Gothard were coming forward with stories of misconduct. We were profoundly saddened but not surprised. Those stories brought back memories of reports relayed to us many years ago by Robin herself.
We had not been with ATI long when Robin was invited to IBLP Headquarters. She seemed to be thriving, and we were proud of the position she had as a correspondence secretary to Bill Gothard. When, a few years later, she described incidents of inappropriate behavior, we were stunned and confused. We always believed Robin, but wondered if she had misunderstood the incidents, or taken them out of context. But even if the “best-case scenario” were true, that this lonely man had fallen in love with our daughter, we still understood the behavior to be wildly inappropriate. The “worst-case scenario,” a predator willing to regularly take advantage of a misplaced trust, was so unthinkable that we don’t recall even having it come into our minds.
We spoke with Bill about these concerns, and while he apologized for the offense, he assured us that we had misunderstood his intentions. He expressed that we could trust him with our daughter. In speaking with other IBLP staff, we also remember sharing our growing caution about Bill working so closely with young women, how it just did not look right and seemed to make the ministry vulnerable to scandal.
Robin came back to Michigan and met her wonderful future husband. They were married, and the painful and perplexing events surrounding her abrupt return home from Headquarters were rarely spoken of. But in our hearts, it quietly festered. We had questions we never had the courage, or perhaps the humility, to ask. Doubts about whether we had done all that we should have were suppressed.
Now we look back, and it’s as if we are waking up. What on earth could we have been thinking? How could we have been so blind? How could we have been so naïve? We’re still not sure about those questions (although we have our suspicions), but we are sure about a few things: God is still God, and He is always good. This train wreck of a situation is not beyond His reach nor is it too spectacularly awful to be used by Him to accomplish His purposes. There is no formula for escaping our fallen nature—there is only Jesus. And He’s enough. He was enough before we were associated with the Institute and He’s enough now. Paul uses the metaphor of war, which seems to make this world a battlefield. And our enemy is vicious and remorseless. Battlefields are places where the wounded fall. Soldiers can be treated, they can recover, and they can return to the battlefield. That is what we are in the process of experiencing. In fact, we pray that will also be the case with all who have been impacted by these developments, including Bill Gothard.
After Robin returned home, our enthusiasm for the ministry gradually waned. Our four youngest children have never even attended a Basic Seminar. Much of what we’re describing happened before some of them were even born. The true things we learned from the ministry we continued to employ as best we could. It hasn’t been “easier” to be a Christian family since drifting away from IBLP, but I don’t know any families that choose to follow Jesus (or even those who don’t!) who find being a family “easy.” The enemy is heavily invested in disrupting family.
There is much work to do. Truth and Love need to be restored and upheld throughout the process. We pray that all wounds will be bound with compassion, and that justice is righteously applied wherever the damage requires it. We are altered by our involvement in this epic disaster, but not shattered. Bill Gothard has done a great deal of damage, but Jesus assures us that the enemy does not have the power to snatch anyone out of His hand. We believe Him.
Robin is grateful that the Lord hooked her up with a guy who was not the man of her dreams, because he’s even more perfect for her than anything she could have possibly dreamed up. God has blessed them with three children who just happen to be the cutest kids in the world.
Fred and Barb are the parents of ten children who have all put their trust in the Lord. Their hope and prayer is that each one of them would make Jesus their best friend for life, and that God will someday say to each one of them, “Well done, good and faithful servants.”
"Shortly after that trip, my dad and I both approached Bill about our concerns, first privately, and then with other witnesses. His apology expressed sorrow over our misinterpretation of his intentions. He assured me that his behavior was simply that of an affectionate father. He explained it all away."
Then then she was replaced by Megan, and Bill repeated his conduct in almost exactly the same way. I guess Bill Gothard considers himself the most misunderstood and misinterpreted person on the face of this earth.
Thank you for your immense bravery Robin! From what I've heard from Penny, you are an incredible woman of God. Stand strong! We've got your back :-)
I've noticed this a few times and I think it should be pointed out - I don't believe it is appropriate for any man other than a father to be able to show a girl fatherly affection. If it's not your father then it's different. It's not appropriate regardless of how you look at it and very dangerous to allow I think.
Also, hats off to the parents! Even though it's a really sad story it's also an encouraging one seeing how things turned out.
Definitely a different meaning than we would normally attach to "in loco parentis".
...and what kind of a father tries to put his hand up his daughter's leg?? Jesus told us to be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves. The body of Christ in Gothards life has been the very opposite.
This kind of behavior is more than wildly inappropriate, it is outright illegal in the workplace.
Ladies, please go to the law--this predator must be stopped.
May Jesus Christ have mercy on all of us.
When all this started, I wanted RG to just lay all evidence and accounts on the table a once...not to rip the bandage off slowly, if you will. But with the lack of repentance from Gothard and the spin coming from David Waller and others, it seems the methodical timing is best suited. They cannot just wait for a couple of days of scandal to blow over. Sooner or later, these accusations are going to have to publicly addressed.
Every so often, the Master Artist stops to examine His work.
Lifting the chaotic burst of color from the table, He holds it up to the light.
Much like a beautiful piece of stained glass, the dark outline only creates a frame for the light to pierce and illuminate with grace.
Thank you for inviting us to eavesdrop on that moment.
Hugs to you, sweet Robin.
So let's not be afraid to be the bright orange and red paints that indicate "stop" and "danger" in the hands of our Just Master Artist.
Thank you, Robin, Fred, and Barb, for sharing your story. I can tell that your heart's desire is for God to be glorified. I agree with Robin when she writes "covering it up has served no biblical purpose of righteousness." I know God can be trusted, and I know that while He is a God of mercy, He is also a God of truth and righteousness. So, even if telling this publicly has some undesired consequences, I just wanted to let you know that I believe you are doing the right thing and I appreciate your willingness to speak up.
Hear hear!!!
This article is so balanced, grace-saturated, and truthful. Thanks to Robin, Fred, and Barb for sharing. There's something in this story that's uniquely different from all the others we've read here. The gut reaction that Robin's husband felt—walking into the deserted building and seeing Bill on a couch alone with a teenage girl—is a unique outsider's perspective to the wrongness of Bill's behavior. When you're 'in' the program for so long, in an environment that exudes respect for Bill as 'the Lord's Anointed', it can be harder to see the warning signs. Distance provides needed perspective. What your husband felt in that moment, Robin, is what every person likely would have felt if they had not been conditioned over time to feel otherwise. Glad your husband was able to see past Oz to the man behind the curtain—a reaction that many are only just now feeling.
*Like* This is so true RevKev.
RevKev, I can't resist commenting on what appears to me to be a cruel judgement of the many heart-breaking stories that preceded Robin's.
"This article is so balanced, grace-saturated, and truthful." And then . .
"There's something in this story that's uniquely different from all the others we've read here."
Sorry, bro, but the insinuation is that the stories that preceded were not "balanced, grace-saturated, and truthful." I don't know if that is what you meant to say or not, but if it is, then let me go on record as saying "No, a thousand times no!"
I am so grateful for the spirit of love, grace, truth, and anointing of the Holy Spirit that I sense in the work of RG and the stories being told.
Hi, Don--I read it the same way you did initially. Upon re-reading RevKev's comment, I think the part about this testimony being unique refers to the gut-reaction from an outsider, Robin's husband. I've read multiple other comments from RevKev, and I really don't think he is trying to negate the testimonies from the other girls.
Don, thanks for the comment, but you are definitely misunderstanding me. The first sentence is a stand-alone, saying that I loved the overall tone of the piece. The rest of the comment is about the unique testimony of an outside third-party. Hope that clarifies.
Permit me to be red and orange here:
Who are God's Anointed??
"He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Psalm 107:7-15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=105&v=15&t=KJV#s=583006
Please note the plural sense used in describing Israel.
God's anointed are God's People, not just leaders!! Can anyone find New Testament support for this idea/
My point--Psalm 107:15 does not give leaders carte blanche to molest women. In fact, anyone who molests God's Children is molesting God's anointed!!
The gut reaction by Robin's dear husband was truthful and right on!
The 'forgotten' doctrine of authority is that God doesn't give ANYONE the authority to sin.
I had the privilege of being one of the girls that lived with Robin during much of her time at HQ. Robin is one of those friends that I would say beyond a shadow of a doubt stayed "above reproach" in dealing with everyone. She has a kind and gentle spirit and loves the Lord with her whole heart. It saddens me that Mr. Gothard would take advantage of her tender heart by placing guilt on her for his perverted actions. I am so thankful for her parents and now her husband in helping her walk through these painful memories.
Dixie, it makes me sad too. It's sad when the day comes that a young girl's open and trusting heart first comes into contact with icky people. Like my wife says, there is something especially gross about an old man that is checking out young girls.
I keep hearing people say that BG has "fallen" but that word implies that he was at one time morally upright and then had a moral slip. As these stories come in the picture is not of a fallen saint but a morally deviant narcissist who created an alternate universe where he could hold power over others and fulfill his sick desires.
Another broken and misused metaphor is "eat the meat and spit out the bones." Doctrinal error and moral perversion of this kind is poison not bones. Asking your kids to eat the meat and spit out the poison is folly.
For the board and those few hold outs please remember Bill's words "your talk talks, and your walk talks, but your walk talks louder than your talk talks." Bill and IBLP your walk has spoken about who you are and what you do to people. Please turn out the lights on the institute.
Amen!! There is no "fall" here. First, there was a systematic setting up of a system that provided Bill with a constant stream of fresh, young people to exploit. Then, second, there was a system of constant, sophisticated, and highly developed cover-up that included all senior staff if they wanted to stay on in leadership with IBLP. There never was a time this ministry was healthy. Its been an exploitation machine from the start. :(
Yes, I'd say so also, and an early red flag, though it probably didn't seem like a big deal at the time, was Bill's push for a "new", "novel" , never before seen biblical package of principles. We all have a unique way to present something, no harm no foul there, but to underline how DIFFERENT this bag of tricks was....that's a monstrous red flag that shouts gnosticism. Or as someone here called it, Bill's christian talmud.
When I first had dealings with Gothard adherents, I concluded that the group was "cult-like" (I reserve the term "cult" for groups like JW's and Mormons, who claim Christianity but deny its essentials; though Gothard's teachings are not Biblical I don't think he or his followers deny any of the essentials).
I had no idea just how depraved Gothard was. PaulVA is right, it is hard to fall if one has never stood in the first place.
RG must continue to share the stories and documentation it has, to keep the pressure on IBLP from somehow finding a way to reinstate Gothard under the premise of "rehabilitation".
So what's better? To teach what Mormons and JWs teach and deny certain essentials of the Nicene, Apostles, Chalcedon, etc. or to teach what the Mormons and JWs teach while affirming with your lips historic orthodox Christianity?
It's false teaching and a false gospel with a heavy handed authoritarian structure and Leader. It's a cult.
I completely agree. This is a pattern of deviant lusts (toward the young and naive) and a manipulation of people and circumstances to feed this lust. This isn't an old man loosing his inhibitions due to some cognitive decline. This isn't a fatherly affection that's just been misinterpreted. This isn't a righteous man with a plausible explanation. This isn't a man in search of a wife. This is a sickening, twisted, perverted man trying to find the next fix.
Paula, this is well put. The last 2 sentences sum it up so well.
I think you called it, Paul. Right on!
What I appreciate most about your story, Robin, is how utterly full of grace it is.
I just want to reiterate what I think are the most important points you made. Not that my opinion is particularly important, but the GRACE that you spoke in these statements REALLY struck me.
"Overlooking an offense requires acknowledging the sin that was there."
"...forgiving an unrepentant heart. It takes something supernatural to do it, and it feels unnatural, but healing and freedom can come without true repentance from our offender."
"...covering it up has served no biblical purpose...."
"God has given me a voice — not to be a judge, but to be a witness of the truth that I know. Now is the time to trust God for justice and pray ... that the final outcome will bring healing and hope to all, including Bill Gothard."
Thank you, Robin, especially for that last statement. I rejoice with you that God has given you beauty for ashes. I know the journey was not easy, but I am glad to see that He has brought you through it to become such a beautiful person. I join you in praying that God will bring repentance, healing, and hope to all of us — and maybe especially to Bill.
"Bill said my naturally curly hair was, 'distracting and worldly.' He revealed that, 'It might be a temptation to men that you have such wild curly hair.' I started using hot rollers. He informed me that, although I had a 'beautiful closed smile,' the small gap in my teeth was distracting. He encouraged me to have it fixed–for free. ... Bill asked, 'Have you ever considered having your teeth whitened?' He pointed out that I should consider having the tiny mole on my face removed. He noted a very dim birthmark on the side of my face that nobody ever notices. My already shaky perception of my appearance grew worse."
Principle of Design, anyone?
I attended a seminar in Chicago in the 80s. The Principle of Design: is that where you take the flaws you see about yourself and make them, I forget the word used, but in essence , it becomes a mark of ownership or something? If this is the principle you are talking about its a good point!
The Principle of Design basically states that I need to have the serenity to accept the things about myself that I cannot change (gender, ethnicity, date of birth, height, etc.), as those attributes are self-evidently part of God's will for my life. It's meant to address my personal insecurities.
One would think that Bill Gothard would've been able to interact with others in accordance with his VERY FIRST "non-optional" principle. But no, not even in this did he demonstrate integrity. His secretary has curly hair? Change it! She has a gap in her teeth? Fix it! A faint birthmark? Unclean! Gothard reminds me of Jimmy Stewart's character in Hitchcock's "Vertigo," desperately trying to recreate an impossibly "ideal" woman and withdrawing further and further from rationality in the process.
Just thinking aloud here, but maybe the key that we are missing is "...that I cannot change." It's not that it's WRONG to change what you can (hair, teeth, birthmarks, moles), it's that you shouldn't get hung up on what you cannot change. Country of origin, family members, and so on. But it seems like it's okay to change something if you can: hair colour, birthmarks, etc. (I'm not saying this is how he taught the principle of Design, but I think it's how he lived it.)
So maybe he thought he was doing these girls a favour? "Oh, this girl is so pretty except for this one thing ... maybe her family can't afford to have that fixed. I can help her!"
But is that REALLY where God wants my focus? Does he REALLY want me spending money to deal with the small imperfections?
The funky triangular mole on my arm?
My frizzy-curly-wild hair?
The bizarre-looking scar from my smallpox vaccination that draws SO many questions when I go sleeveless? (You youngsters won't know what I'm talking about, but anyone over the age of 42 is going "gosh, yes!")
Thing is, where do you draw the line? I can wear tinted contacts if I don't like the colour of my eyes. I CAN have my nose resculpted, my face lifted, my tummy tucked, every blemish removed ... There are lots of things that I CAN change. But I don't think the expenditure of time and financial resources is really wise stewardship.
And I would be outraged if someone said, "Oh, that scar / mole / hair is SO distracting. Can I pay to fix it for you?"
Austin- in keeping with your thought, and as has been mentioned before - for how many years has Bill colored his hair? I would guess at least 30 years. Isn't grey hair supposed to be a mark of wisdom, and a "crown"? I know I am not ashamed of my grey hair.
Wendy - yay, small pox vaccine scars! Mine is nearly perfectly intersected with a scar I got a few years ago in an accident. And I am happy to have both of them right where they are and wouldn't have them changed for anyone.
I suppose Gothard's obsessions with appearance don't violate the *letter* of his principle, but they certainly violate its spirit. He seems to want everyone on earth to conform to monolithic male (no beards!) and female (no frizz!) physical ideals found nowhere in scripture. He denies the creativity of God by condemning the variation evident in His creation. And by claiming that major birth defects are reflections of God's will but minor birthmarks are "distractions" from the same, he's stuffing God into a weirdly misshapen box of his own arbitrary devising.
Exactly what I thought.
I was also privileged to have met Robin. We first met at that Northwoods Counseling Seminar in 1989. I saw her quite a bit over the next couple of years at seminars and at headquarters. I remember feeling a twinge of jealousy at her working with Bill when visiting Headquarters... Oh, how naive I was! Thank you so much for sharing, Robin!
Robin, Fred, Barb...thank you for sharing your stories. That is very brave of all of you, I know it must not have been easy to revisit such a painful topic. What impressed me was the grace, forgiveness, and kind spirit you show in your writing.
Robin, I love this comment "Our paths might never have crossed without that “upset” to my plans." My plans were turned upside down (my story here; https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/10/my-hearts-guardian-missing-in-action/); if my life plan had not been upset, I never would have met and married my sweet husband. While it was difficult to go through, I am at peace with what happened because God used it for good. His plan was better than mine, so much so that sometimes it boggles my mind.
Again...thank you for sharing your stories.
Flynn, I am so glad that there's no heartbreak that cannot be touched and healed by Jesus. What a sweet end to your story. Thank you for sharing it with me - these guys who truly seek to have noble hearts are to be stood up for and high-fived. I am grateful that God brought such a man into your life.
Robin, I have always admired your gentle, kind and gracious spirit. What a beautiful way you shared your testimony. God's grace is real in your life because you truly know and walk with the Grace-giver. I loved your words, "Forgiveness is what will free the broken." God bless you!
Life was relatively smooth sailing until several weeks ago. Now I refer to Robin as "my little night light", because whenever she does come to bed I just see the glowing of her phone. This has been a painful wound to reopen, especially after learning that the awkwardness of her interaction wasn't a roadblock to ongoing patterns. But our many many prayers are that God will be the author of a grand conclusion to this battle. And the medics can reach all the wounded (victims, parents, those that were wrongfully "sent home", siblings, and the faith shipwrecked) over the years. I'm praising God for everyone's love and support you've extended to Robin during this time. Please forgive Robin's Robinism. I was the one God over-graced when He allowed our paths to cross.
May God Bless You for your edification,
Brian
Brian, thank you for you and your precious wife being willing to come forward. Hopefully, no other young woman will have to endure any more of this kind of mistreatment, which has gone on for far too long.
Praying for you Brian and Robin!
Brian,
Thanks to Robin and to you for bringing this story forward. When I looked at the entry today I said to myself, "Oh, Lord, no, not another one...." Reading these accounts is difficult, knowing the pain involved and understanding (as a cult survivor myself) what the process of healing is all about. I was particularly interested in Robin's parents' addition to the story; it was fascinating to get their perspective as well. To Robin and all of the ladies (and the one or two guys) who has shared a story, you've done so with such grace and balance. I don't detect a whiff of venom or malicious intent. These stories had to be told in order to break the cycle of abuse because clearly it would not stop on its own. I totally understand why the stories took years before they could be told. There had to be time for processing and healing to take place and there needed to be the right arena for the discussion.
Your stories were written for such a time as this.
Blessings,
Jim K.
Brian,
Your post made me LOL! You and my husband would get along famously as it seems like you are walking the exact same road with us these past few weeks. Thank you (as I've thanked my husband) for your patience, gentleness and support as we work through the past and find our voice and desire to do our part to help others. "This too shall pass" - but we will be wiser, healthier women who understand sweet freedom in Christ more when it's over. Thank you for standing with her. She was precious to me 20+ years ago and is even more precious to me now.
Rachel
Brain,
Thank you for being so supportive of your wife. You sound like a very humble great guy. I really appreciate the grace and humility with which you and Robin have shared your story. I'm glad that both of you saw the importance of speaking up.
Your wife’s story was further verification of Gothard's deceit and abusive behavior. She is a brave woman who has come forward to proclaim the truth. Thank you for your support of her having not experienced life at the Institute or as we used to say the “funny farm”. The evil she and all the other women endured will be dealt at the judgment seat of Christ. If Bill is a Christian he might find his heavenly reward to be not what he was expecting. I am reminded of Matthew 18:6-8 and being cast into the sea with a millstone around your neck for harming these little ones. God bless and protect your family and the brave stance your father-in-law took.
Larne Gabriel
Author, Ruth’s Story
Thank you Larne, Ganriel, and another husband who has had to walk through this with your wives. It can't be an easy for you to see them have to deal with all of this and reopen wounds for some. I hope you know that these struggles are bringing forth fruit in helping other victims to begin to heal.
I need to proof better! I meant any other husband! Anyway, just know you are appreciated.
Thank you Robin and Brian for coming forward.
The children of home schooled families every where appreciate it.
It appears Bill Gothard always or usually chose young girls to be an assistant. If true that in itself shows how twisted Gothard's thinking was. If it was only capable help he was after one would think he would have selected an older more experienced assistant vs. a young attractive inexperienced young girl. Apparently Gothard was more after an attractive girl pleasing to his eye than actual help.
Wow, Robin. I with that I could give you a big hug. A big thank you to you and your parents for so graciously sharing your hearts and stories with us.
This last part really struck me - "Telling my story is scary, and it’s the last thing in the world I would ever have chosen to do, but the many women who have been hurt are worth standing up for. We are a family. I can find rest in knowing that the innocent have been warned, that we stood up for the oppressed, and that we have sounded the sirens. Forgiveness is what will free the broken."
Beautifully said.
In a roundabout way, I also met my husband through ATI (his sister and I were in Moscow together) - and I am so glad that you were able to meet your beloved after going through so much heartache. *big hugs!*
Now there is a witness whose parents affirm publicly they confronted Bill Gothard at the time of his unseemly behavior. Now there are two witnesses who found Gothard alone in a building on a couch with a young girl - when many others were sent home for far less. Again this reminds me how Bill's motto should now read - "Others may NOT, I CAN."
The fact that there are increasing numbers of stories coming out, some with two or more witnesses, and yet there is no repentance, is very telling. I was not fully aware until a few days ago how utterly sickeningly corrupt IBLP has been and remains. And just think, Bill Gothard and the board of IBLP, none of this would have come to light if you had accepted counsel and repented years ago, instead of insulating yourself by proclaiming your own righteousness and by demonizing others who merely wanted to help you!
Thank you for sharing what you feel God wanted you to share in such a balanced and God honoring way. We truly do have an enemy in this world and he seeks to steal, kill and destroy any way he can but we also have a great, awesome and powerful God who can take any problem, hurt or struggle and help us come out the victors through Him! Praise The Lord!
After reading the stories of all these women, and the mental abuse they've suffered, one word comes to my mind.....
Gas Lighting!!
"The term "gaslighting" has been used colloquially since at least the 1970s to describe efforts to manipulate someone's sense of reality. In a 1980 book on child sex abuse, Florence Rush summarized George Cukor's 1944 film version of Gas Light, and writes, "even today the word [gaslight] is used to describe an attempt to destroy another's perception of reality."
"Psychologist Martha Stout states that sociopaths frequently use gaslighting tactics. Sociopaths consistently transgress social mores, break laws, and exploit others, but are also typically charming and convincing liars who consistently deny wrongdoing. Thus, some who have been victimized by sociopaths may doubt their perceptions."
"With respect to women in particular, Hilde Lindemann argued that "in gaslighting cases...ability to resist depends on her ability to trust her own judgements."[note 1][11] Establishment of "counterstories" may help the victim reacquire "ordinary levels of free agency."
If THIS doesn't describe BG...I don't know what does!! He IS a sociopath!! And I'm glad that this is all being made public...Bravo Robin, Meg, Rachel and all the other brave men and women who have come forward!
YOU all have done nothing wrong!
You were victimized by a ruthless sociopath...and shame, SHAME on those who knew his behavior was inappropriate and covered for him!!
Gaslighting is mentioned somewhat as an aside in this piece as well: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/silencing-the-lambs-twisting-matthew-18/ The context is that victims are asked to surrender the last word in telling what happened over to the offender. This helps build it into the subculture, appearing to have the backing of Scripture.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks he stand out as a sociopath. If anyone doesn't know what that is I encourage you to google sociopath or antisocial personality disorder. I was married to one and they have the ability to leave you in absolute ruins. I had PTSD for a couple if years after that. The dreams...they were the worst. I feel for the women who were victimized. There are people out there tht understand how it feels when someone like that makes you question your perspective of reality. Stockholm syndrome, anyone??? You about have to have it to comply with these type of rigid religious rules. I'm not someone who had anything to do with this organization but I did graduate from Pensacola Christian College with two degrees, so I know a little about that world. I walked away from it all two years ago. The whole kit and kabootle.
I think you've exposed a really dangerous thing happening in Christian circles today, not just in Gothardism. In a sense, we skip over the passage about the Bereans in Acts. You see, the Bereans were COMMENDED for searching the scriptures when Paul preached. They did not take what he said at face value, but put them up against the truth of scripture. What we have today is a move back towards Catholicism - the idea that the laity are not qualified to interpret the scriptures for themselves and for others, and that you need a M.Div, D.Min or DD to really be qualified to understand scripture.
In Westminster churches, I think this comes from a subtle sleight of hand in the Larger Catechism.
Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?
A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.
Q. 155. How is the Word made effectual to salvation?
A. The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the Word, an effectual means of enlightening, convincing, and humbling sinners; ...
See what just happened? We have morphed "the word" into "the preached word". Such that a "means of grace" church is one with a complete focus on the pastor in worship - preached word, sacraments, prayer. In a sense, members are not to be trusted, only the leaders. Sometimes, this is so pronounced that you somehow have to be able to prove to the leadership that they are Biblically wrong in order for you to leave the church without being insubordinate. They twist the verse about the Elders' responsibility for their members:
Heb 13:17 - "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you."
It sounds pretty harsh, but remember the Bereans were COMMENDED for searching the scriptures.
To complete the thought. How this ties to gaslighting is that we create an environment where Christians are convinced of the inadequacy of their personal understanding of the scriptures, of right and of wrong absent what the leadership teaches. Then when they are put into a compromising situation, where they must rely on their own judgment against that of their leaders, they may be unable to see from the right perspective.
That's why, as a parent, I have told my children that they may always ask my "WHY" I tell them to do something, as long as it is a respectful question and not simply trying to get out of doing it. I also tell them that they have the right to ask me or their mother if someone asks them to do something they think is wrong, or are unwilling, or uncomfortable doing. We left a church when one of the Elders said, "well, I don't want your children coming to you every time I tell them to do something." I try to explain that, ultimately, they answer to God for their obedience to Him, not for their obedience to me.
This is why Ezzo and his "instant, unquestioned obedience" ilk are straight from the pits of Hell.
enough already of "so and so" is straight from the pits of Hell. That's pretty harsh ...
Maybe not. Ezzo is very Gothardy!
it just sounds awfully judgmental to me to say that someone is from the pit of hell. I seem to recall that we will be judged according to the same standard by which we judge others ...
I understand that. It's risky to make such assessments but I believe there is biblical warrant and necessity for calling something anathema (Galatians) and hating it like Jesus does (Rev. 2) for example.
yes, and He was also Alpha and Omega. He pretty much had the "authority" to proclaim someone as from the pit of hell.
...actually He is Alpha and Omega ... and sorry to hijack, just certain things get me to ranting, please forgive me...
Grateful, I think he's referring to Ezzo's philosophies as being "from the pit of hell". And I agree. Ezzo has some things on his record, too, and I would never dream of applying most of his ideas to my precious child. In fact, any pediatrician worth his salt should be appropriately horrified by "Babywise". Seeing as these people teach how to bypass your parental instincts and instead abuse your child, "pit of hell" is not a stretch. Neither is the "millstone" verse. Now whether Ezzo, himself, is from the pit of hell, not likely. But his philosophies, very possibly.
@grateful- I really do understand your caution. We should not be flippant in our use of words like cult, anathema, false-gospel, pit of hell. However, if you look at Revelation 2 Jesus commends the Christians for hating false teaching and removing false teachers from the church. He says their actions are commendable because they are in keeping with His view of the teaching teachers.
We are surely called to rebuke false teachings; with humility to be sure. I would argue that calling something "God's Way" of doing something that the Bible says very little about whether it courtship (Gothard) scheduling your kids (Ezzo) is VERY dangerous. There is biblical mandate to call those things false for the sake of the gospel.
Gothard's understanding of law and principle is anathema, which technically means damned to hell rather than from the pit of hell, but Paul teaches the Church not to play nice when the Gospel is at stake. In other words, we are to judge according to the Gospel! This is essential-the free grace of God in Jesus Christ is the standard by which we should judge teaching in the Church.
But we can agree to disagree.:)
Sorry, I should choose my words more carefully. It's hard for me to separate the person from their teachings, and the teachings definitely smell of brimstone.
Q. 156. Is the Word of God to be read by all?
A. Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation, yet all sorts of people are bound to read it
apart by themselves,and with their families: to which end, the Holy Scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar
languages.
Mark, this is not the place to get into a defense of the confession nor the folks who have and will abuse their authority twisting the Scriptures to their own ends but I think your wrong to make a causal link here between your experience and the WLC..it seems that the WCF your two passages bear out the balance that has to be in place between the ministers' responsibility to teach and preach and the individual's responsibility to search and know the Scriptures.
I think you also corner yourself into the very problem of Gothard,namely that his interpretive method and interpretations are grounded in his own private reading of the text. His techniques is terrible. His willingness to heed the input from trained men and women is hubris. He wouldn't listen to historic Christianity or scholars. Can scholars be wrong? Of course, but there is some accountability to the academy at minimum and to the Church in the best circumstances. Can confessions be wrong? Of course. Can they be manipulated? Of course. But that doesn't make the thing itself bad.
Knowing Greek and Hebrew do actually help the interpretive endeavor. Being skilled and trained and spending time does as well. The problem with Gothard is that he's not. He crafts interpretations to his own divising. I'll speak for myself. What got me into spiritual trouble with Gothard is that he was the wrong teacher and I was enamoured with what he promised and the full convention center and his stupid stories. What helped me out was teacher (trained ordained men and women) who taught me the Scriptures and how to begin to interpret them better myself. Yes be a Berean. Yes heard the Word preached from those whom God has graciously set apart to be His under shepherds. His mouth pieces.
Lastly, I'd encourage you to be a Berean and discover how prominent preaching the Word is in the Scriptures. Acts is 40% speech; sermons. It's all over the NT. There are churches that balance the importance of the offices and means of grace with the individual. I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience.
Shane wrote:
I think you also corner yourself into the very problem of Gothard,namely that his interpretive method and interpretations are grounded in his own private reading of the text. His techniques is terrible. His willingness to heed the input from trained men and women is hubris. He wouldn't listen to historic Christianity or scholars. Can scholars be wrong? Of course, but there is some accountability to the academy at minimum and to the Church in the best circumstances. Can confessions be wrong? Of course. Can they be manipulated? Of course. But that doesn't make the thing itself bad.
This isn't my conversation, but the formula of "just me, Jesus, and the WORD..." is a formula for trouble, and has ,IMO, at least one ditch, if not more, gaping at the edges. The truth is , we need the help of skilled teachers/preacers to rightly divide the Word, that's why those are spiritual gifts given to the church at large.
It would be a very tragic consequence if someone went from snakey Bill , with his scripture twisting, to a stance that said, "I dare not trust those sermon makers, they are all just like....." large amounts of humility in BOTH the teacher and the listener make for a smoother christian journey , no doubt
Thanks greg r- you said it more succinctly and clearly. And without all the spelling and grammatical errors. Sheeesh! The iPad is not the most conducive platform for typing here.
thanks Shane; truth is, when I typed that, I'm well aware that there are those in the RG audience that need that (line of thought) more than you, didn't mean to single you out particularly. I'm glad you mentioned scholarship in several of your posts. Some kind of academic/ecclesial accoutability would have done BG a world of good, but of course he didn't need that , did he ??
Shane,
In the past 20 years, my church went from an emphasis on small group discipleship and members working with each other to an emphasis on the preached word and not having any teaching in the church outside of what happens on Sunday.
A phrase that comes up over and over is that section from the WLC - the PREACHED word, sacraments and prayer.
I'm not here to argue that the preached word is unimportant. It is of critical importance, but there is a reason why the Catholic church went around burning Bibles, and I don't think it was because they thought they could deceive the masses with their doctrinal errors. They fully believed that individual members could not be trusted to interpret scriptures for themselves, even under the preaching ministry of the church. They believed that the church and the priests somehow had the corner on Biblical interpretation.
But, we see that the Holy Spirit works in individuals through the scriptures, and we see that doctrinal error creeps in just as readily through the leadership as through the laity.
My point here is not to call the Westminster documents bad, since this is not a black and white question. I'm going to say they are human-written, non-inspired and contain flaws. Sinful people take those flaws and drive a bus through them.
You wrote:
"I think you also corner yourself into the very problem of Gothard, namely that his interpretive method and interpretations are grounded in his own private reading of the text."
The problem is authority. I am accountable to Christ for my interpretation of His scripture. My accountability to Christ is not lessened by my private interpretation of the Westminster documents. The documents have authority over me in that my church holds them as authoritative, but if the documents are flawed, I can choose to obey Christ rather than the divines. Gothard's problem is not merely his private interpretation (which is accountable to Christ for), but his abuse of authority in forcing his private interpretation on those under him. But, that does not absolve those under him from responsibility for their own actions.
I'm not here to discount the preached word. I'm here to say that the church has always relied on individual Christians taking each other aside and helping each other understand scripture. For example, Priscilla and Aquila, also in Acts.
Sorry, I missed this one, too:
"There are churches that balance the importance of the offices and means of grace with the individual."
I think you're making my point. It's not "offices and means of grace" vs. "individual" There are official means of grace (preached word, sacraments, corporate prayer) and there are private means of grace (reading scriptures, prayer). I'm saying what happens in the six days that aren't Sunday is just as, if not more important than what happens on Sunday, even if only by the fact that it is 6/7 of the week.
Parents are so important because the hours they spend in front of their children each week greatly overwhelm the 2-3 hours they spend in church. But, it seems that the church wants to be hands-off during the week, as if the 2-3 hours of worship is "equipping the saints" for ministry. Is it okay that a church operates as a church only on Sunday? Our church has probably 200 members (communicant and baptized), 3 elders and a pastor. Aren't we fooling ourselves that 4 men can provide proper oversight and shepherding for 200?
One last comment.
You're right. This is a poor forum for understanding the arguments. I re-read my posts and yours and I feel like we are mostly in agreement, but talking past each other trying to explain where we are different.
I don't think I can easily explain our differences, and I'm not sure it will do well to go back and forth in this forum, so I'll just say that I *FEEL* that the Reformed churches I've been in have too high of an emphasis of preaching as a means of grace, and not enough emphasis on, or even discouragement of "iron sharpening iron" as a means of grace.
I've had a pastor call me an "anomaly" - a member who has a really good grasp of scripture - but who has not gone to seminary to get the credentials and go into ministry. But that seems to be the only way in my church to be taken seriously. If I have the problem of Gothard, it's partially that I have no means to test my interpretation of scripture, because I don't have the credentials for anyone to take notice.
@mark: you wrote
In the past 20 years, my church went from an emphasis on small group discipleship and members working with each other to an emphasis on the preached word and not having any teaching in the church outside of what happens on Sunday.
I've never been to your church, but my own experience has been this is NOT a good sign. Two things, among others, will almost certainly happen.
1)the sermon will be the focus on Sunday morning, real worship will become a condiment (I realize that what worship is can be a post all by itself); my former pastor thought nothing of preaching 45 to 75 minutes...if he went over, thought we were so much better blessed..which brings me to #2
#2) pastor boy (and it's almost always 'boy') will have an exagerated opinion of his role, particularly his preaching role, in the life of the body. he will have no shortage of prooftexts to back him up. I hope your fellowship does not follow this trajectory, I ended up finding a faith home that esteems the WORD, but holds the sermon to 15 or 20 min. max. I see no downside to that, at all.
Thanks Mark. You're right it's both/and. I would say the teaching of the Scriptures is that you are accountable to Jesus and the Church for your interpretation. That's messy, but so is the individual being accountable to Jesus alone ala Bill Gothard. Some churches do well at it others poorly. I think what you'll find in the Scriptures is an overwhelming emphasis on the corporate, the body; the Church, the called out gathered ones. The people of God. Individuals reading the Bible and praying, yes. It's important. The Reformation was certainly about individual access to God through Christ alone, but with the understanding that elders and deacons were to care for and protect the flock. Eph 4.
I thought we disagreed that you appear to me to put the priority on the individual means of grace. I would say that the faithful exercise of the special means of grace grounds and gives trajectory to the individual. I'm thinking we disagree because your talking to correct an experience that from what you've described I would disagree with how it's being worked out in your church. The life of the Church is about Sunday, the ordained offices and teachers, the eupipped saints doing ministry, fellowship, small groups, meals shared, care for the poor and outcast, evangelism, care for the city, etc. I think your saying your church has a truncated view on the ordained leadership side of things and it's just as dangerous as a truncated view toward the individual side of things?
Thanks Shane and Greg,
I'm glad that you both understand. Greg, I think #1 is somewhat true. I'm hopeful that #2 will not happen under the current pastor's leadership. He is not centering the ministry on himself because he thinks he's better than everyone else, he's centering the ministry on himself because he thinks that's what the Bible teaches. As such, he is truly humble and he takes his role very seriously. It's definitely a "benevolent" dictatorship!
Shane, "The life of the Church is about Sunday, the ordained offices and teachers, the equipped saints doing ministry, fellowship, small groups, meals shared, care for the poor and outcast, evangelism, care for the city, etc."
I agree with that. What if your church said that small groups should be prayer only because the elders cannot oversee what's being taught, and that evangelism is simply convincing your unsaved neighbors to come to church to hear the preached word so they can be converted?
I may be off base, but I've been involved in a few churches and the ones that I felt were really alive were the ones where the pastors and elders were encouraging the members to get together in small groups during the week to teach each other, pray with each other and fellowship. It was really encouraging for me because within those groups, our "walls" came down and we were able to really strengthen each other. It made Sunday even better because I had the feeling that I was worshiping as part of a community and not alone in the midst of a crowd.
I'm definitely not saying that we should leave the organized church and find a mountain somewhere to worship on, just me and Jesus, if that's what you're referring to as the "individual side of things". I would almost say that overemphasis of Sunday worship and ordained leadership is as individual as finding a mountain. We can be so isolated from the church community that worship becomes like being alone in a crowd.
Shane, "That's messy, but so is the individual being accountable to Jesus alone ala Bill Gothard."
The problem here was Bill Gothard's authority structure. His church refused to make Bill accountable. Both Bill and his church suffered as a result. Whether Bill _really_ wanted to be accountable to his church is a fair question, but as it stood, people tried to take the issue to his church and his church refused its responsibility towards him. The church pointed the finger to the Board and the Board was mostly Bill's cheerleading squad. I was, regretfully, on a board like that. I volunteered for the board thinking that I could be a voice for those hurt by the institution, but came back realizing that the board refused to question the leadership. I stood up a few times for what I thought were simple accountability measures and got repeatedly shot down and outvoted by my peers.
I don't understand that. What I think is a huge truth in the Christian life is that we are all fallible and we need to surround ourselves, not with cheerleaders, but with people who will hold us accountable. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy." Prov. 27:6
"What if your church said that small groups should be prayer only because the elders cannot oversee what's being taught, and that evangelism is simply convincing your unsaved neighbors to come to church to hear the preached word so they can be converted?"
I would say I agree- that's a huge problem! It is overvaluing the ordained office and an undervaluing the gifts of those in their care. It's poor leadership. What leader don't encourage the people under their oversight to go and do (Jesus anyone?) In my experience what you've described is the result of fear and lack of humility. Fear of someone being "wrong" somewhere, which Jesus is not. (Peter, anyone?) Lack of humility in being deeply aware that your pastor and session have enough error in their teaching/lives to destroy the world 7 times over. But for GRACE. It's a lack of faith in the gospel and means of grace FOR your people.
I would also say it runs the risk of reducing the faith to rationalism rather than an embodied faith. All of life faith. I'd say a pastor and session are nuts to not encourage and develop small group ministry where the gifts and lives of it's members are shared. Thanks for sticking it out, and I will absolutely pray that the Lord leads you (and your family?) to wisdom as you work this out! Blessings.
p.s. I don't believe your problem is with the WCF (though I have some disagreements) but with it's application.
@Shane: In a small group or at a seminar, I will sit still for much longer. The Sunday model as mostly praise music and sermon is horribly broken. Lol, now I'be pissed off some worship team dudes...
Shane and Greg,
Thanks again. I think we have similar perspectives on the issue. I tend to think that it's more fear and lack of trust than lack of humility. More than in other churches I've been in, the leadership is really down to earth, really care about the flock and really want to do right. They had issues with a person leading small groups before and I think they overreacted in fear. My thought was, what if this person's issues weren't discovered until after he became an elder? Instead, people in his small group started questioning his beliefs and started asking the elders and the pastor if the doctrine was correct. Would they have questioned his teaching if he had the church's stamp of approval?
I wouldn't say the Westminster documents encourage this, exactly, but they don't spell out small groups and they are very strong on the gifts of the minister and what happens on Sunday. So, perhaps it's more that they are outdated and don't really reflect some of the understanding we've developed in the last 400 years. For example, the concept of abuse (not respecting limits to ones authority) is not in their discussion of authority. So, it's no surprise that I've seen Reformed men who think all women must obey all men, Reformed elders who think that all members must obey the leaders, and Reformed leaders who think that all children must obey all adults.
OK: previous #'s were slightly exagerrated: sermon went from 30 to 45 min.. but it sure seemed longer. :)
"15-20 min. max"- you'd HATE my sermons!
"The term "gaslighting" has been used colloquially since at least the 1970s to describe efforts to manipulate someone's sense of reality.
The Bible has a term for this: Deception. Deception not only manipulates someone's sense of reality, but in a Christian context, deception distorts a person's perception of God Himself.
It's not only deception, though. It's a very specific deception, one that causes you to question your own perception of reality, and to think you yourself are going crazy. "Deception" is a gross oversimplification of the concept.
The more I read about Gothard, the more I despise him. I visited with my parents last night (I was in ATI for nearly 6 years) and told them about Recovering Grace and what all is currently going on with Gothard and his removal from IBLP. They are saddened to hear it, but they still think Gothard did a lot of good in his ministry. I don't think some (like my parents) will ever come around to seeing the fallacies and failures that Gothard brought. It's sad.
Until I have reckoned with the possibility that I may not get the response that I want, I won't be mentioning this website or recent events to my parents. I'm fragile enough at this time that it would devastate me if I were dismissed or rebuked over this issue.
@Michael: I can empathize with you in your grief in regard to your parents not fully seeing through the fallacies and failures. We're in the same boat on this one. It's a heavy feeling that I carry, and I know you understand, as well as many others here. From one black sheep to another. :)
I would encourage you to confront them with the truth as soon as you reasonably can. You may not get a postive response, but it also won't be healthy for your relationship if you never speak about it, and perhaps become bitter towards them in the process. They may choose to refuse to see the bad in this, and in their own parenting, but it takes more than cutting the head off the snake to get rid of these cults. The people who have ascribed to them need to face their own responsibility in putting this man on a hero-worshipping pedestal.
If the idolatrous nature of the people who put him there is not addressed, then when he is gone, he is just going to be replaced with another false teacher who claims to have all the basic life principles you need for a cookie cutter perfect family.
This is also why I believe people like David Waller and others need to be confronted. So what if BG is gone. They are making it clear that their "mission remains the same." The mission doesn't need to remain the same. I believe these people need to repent for idolatry and propagating false teaching and "basic life principles."
Brumby,
I think we need to recognize that the vast majority of parents(I can't speak for yours) joined ATI/IBLP because they love their children and truly desired something better. There was tons of personal and financial sacrifice by these well meaning parents. Bill brought people in with the promise that they would find solutions to relationship problems, that their kids would be godly, and that they would rub shoulders with kings. What Christian parent woudn't find that attractive?
Imagine the parent that finds out their labor and honest sacrifice over the years in pursuit of the ATI ideals, instead of yeilding fruit, is in many ways evaporating. That's a hard pill to swallow. When your heart truly believes something, convincing it otherwise takes time, patience, and gentleness. It takes love.
Imagine a young man purchasing the biggest diamond engagement ring in town with all his life's savings. His beloved gets it appraised and finds out it is a fake.
He bought it with love, even though he should have checked it out better.
Daniel, that totally describes my parents. They really only wanted the best for me and my sisters, and that's what BG promised in his sales pitch. My family comes from a charismatic tradition, so, unsurprisingly, there was a lot of BG's teaching they didn't accept, but they were willing to put up with it so that their kids could have what they thought was the best. They changed their minds when I came back from four months in Russia mentally and emotionally battered and exhausted.
Brumby, YOU are no black sheep. I do think its a lie from satan to separate us from the body of Christ.
I would hope you could take a look at the stages of a death. I believe the first is denial. I am a sorry parent who could have lost my child through all of this and it has taken time to process it all. (It began years ago and I felt torn, like a sub christian because I desired to be in relationship with my daughter more than keeping the "rules" for her.
I hope we can be glad we see the light and can walk with relationship with God. I do believe God will open their eyes to the full truth. It comes in stages. All we can do is walk and grow in what we know and trust God will bring them along.
I have been reading a lot about Grace. Truly feeling like a new born Christian, a more experienced one.
To Brumby
I just prayed for you and that as time goes on you will experience healing. You are a wounded soldier and need time to recuperate. Having experienced abuse in a different manner as a child, I can relate to how fragile you feel. As time goes on, may healing from our precious Lord bring strength to you. I am thankful that in the midst of our darkest times, Jesus never changes. It takes us time to learn that because others in our lives misused their positions of caring for us. Please don't give up on your journey to put aside the wrong things you were taught and replace it with what is truth from the Lord.
Michael, give them time to absorb. As a former ATI father, admitting that I should not have allowed myself to become involved in the ATI/IBLP program is extremely hard to reckon with. At times while reading this website you think you're reading a fictional novel, that there is no way this could have been going on under so many people's noses.
Please don't judge your parents on their initial response. Also, let them know that you love them either way they fall on the fence. Express to them things in your life that have been good that you learned from your six years but how the actions of Mr. Gothard disqualify him from ministry.
I too, despise Mr. Gothard's actions, but at the same time, we are all sinners who need to repent and ask for forgiveness of sin. Mr. Gothard needs to repent, seek forgiveness and reconciliation from those who he abused and wounded emotionally and spiritually. If we expect God to be merciful to us we must agree he will be merciful to Mr. Gothard. We then must look only to Jesus and His Word and remain vigilant to seek only His truth, His mercy and His grace.
Thank you for your honest words, KH March. I'm sure it was not an easy thing to face; it sounds like you have done so with grace and kindness.
Robin, thanks for sharing your story with a grace filled tone. I pray for God's continued healing. You are just as kind as I remember you from many years ago. :)
Thanks to RG for continuing the dialogue in such a grace filled manner.
To those who are still on the fence:
It is a hard concept to work through the fact that a person whom we all regarded with much respect has done some bad things. With a large number of women that have come forward and pretty much describing similar scenarios, the situation cannot be ignored. I do not see how it is possible to dismiss this pattern of behavior that has been going on for a very, very long time.
I continue to grieve and at the same time pray that the Lord will bring about healing and restoration.
I thank Robin & Brian and my parents for their willingness and boldness in humility to share a very personal story.
I thank my parents for their dedication and love to raising a family that honors Jesus. Even with mistakes and errors in judgement along the way, both my parents have been introspective and balanced in discerning GOD's will and obeying His word; my parents on multiple occasions have sought forgiveness from us when the Holy Spirit convicted them.
I believe many God-honoring parents joined/join ATI with pure motives. IBLP was founded upon biblical principles. Yes, many biblical truths were twisted and perverted, but ultimately the Bible IS God's word, and He graciously reveals truth, sins, abuses, mercy, love, grace, everything!
I say this to express support and recognize many parents who are overwhelmed by this information, as well as judgement and mockery of their historical decision to enroll in ATI. Let me be quick to also acknowledge that ATI was used as an ongoing negative tool by some parents - those are not the individuals I'm referring to.
Well written and well balanced account. Best testimony I've read read in this whole affair. Thank you for being willing to share it.
It is just amazing to me that there was such a fertile atmosphere for these things to happen. I guess I have been in the “protect the children AND your own reputations” mode for so long, since first taking abuse risk management training classes at church to be allowed to work in the nursery there in the early 90’s.
I'm amazed that Bill has never been FALSELY accused of even worse than he is being accused of here. I'm saying that awkwardly. I think what happened is grievous. But these young women could have accused him of any number of physical acts way beyond "inappropriate and harassing" and who would known better – when it’s just him and the girl alone somewhere. At the very least this was (as others have said) very bad management on his part and that of the board.
I too appreciated the grace in this story and that of Robin's parents and husband. Praying for all involved. Lord Jesus, come quickly.
He has been accused of worse, and I do not believe it was false, partly for the very reason you mention. If one were to make up a sensational story, you would think one would go further with their claims. Charlotte's story seems to indicate that his logical next steps would have been the same with any of these girls, if his previous advances were not rebuffed. Charlotte was so unfortunate to be exposed to him in such a delicate state, and I strongly tend to believe that he took full advantage of his knowledge of her past.
Robin & Brian, Fred & Barb, thank you so much for sharing your experience. As much as it brings up old wounds and disrupts your life, Mr. Gothard has to be stopped and it will only happen because of brave souls like yourselves who will speak up and tell the truth of this ongoing nightmare.
I cringe at the few who have come on this website and try to defend Mr. Gothard and the teachings of ATI/IBLP with their "drive by" comments saying that everything is just a lie and RG wants to destroy a good man's reputation and a godly organization. Each one people are gently asked to spend some time and read the testimonies, witness the documents presented and take in account the over four decade history of abuse, cover-up, lies, deceit and not living by the principles that were expected to live by.
As a former ATI father I salute you, RG and those others who have risen up and "shouted your testimonies, evidence and findings from the rooftops". You have encouraged and inspired me, along with my wife, to ask forgiveness of my children. I have poured out my heart to them, expressing I thought I was doing what was best for them and what was best for me as a parent. They have listened, demonstrated understanding and have given forgiveness. I have gone to other, now former, ATI families and confessed my fear of living for their approval during my years in the program. They have been understanding not realizing that bondage I had allowed into my life. I have admitted to the bondage that crushed my spirit and caused strife between me and my late mother. She never did like Mr. Gothard, and now I wish I was able to tell her that her intuitions about him were very valid.
This has been so freeing to know that I am not alone and that there are others who are walking beside me offering encouragement, consolation and insight! My deepest thanks to all.
Your example of humility is inspiring. I admire the kind, loving, and gracious attitudes of so many on this site. Unfortunately, I mostly feel anger. I appreciate being reminded in one of the other comments that Jesus wants me to respond to others with the same grace that I am daily in need of.
There is a great discussion on The ATI Parent Recovery Group on Facebook right now about being angry! My comment was, "Jesus wasn't exactly being pleasant while over-turning the money changers table and running them out of the temple! Think on that...."
I am not sure whether you can read it unless you are a member of the page but here is the link:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/182080015188401/permalink/682625838467147/?comment_id=682789558450775&offset=0&total_comments=6¬if_t=group_activity
If you are on Facebook and you are not a member of this page you need to be.
I appreciate the kind, gracious spirit in which Robin’s story of exploitation was shared. I appreciate that Robin and her parents each acknowledged God’s sovereignty over lives and that they have taken rest in the tender arms of our Savior (then and now). I also appreciate that they understand that being kind and "resting in the Lord" are not dichotomous to speaking the truth in love ~ love to God and love to neighbor (to us and to BG as well).
I encourage you to not “blame” yourselves over the many other disclosures of BG’s perverse actions toward young women. Bill Gothard’s sins in this area are clearly not the victim’s (or their parent’s fault) but rather are the direct responsibity of a man who has purposely contrived situations to his perverse ends. He has overtly manipulated circumstances to gain access to young women and then proceeded to flatter, deceive, misuse, manipulate,and betray them(and their parents as well.) You were taught (by this man’s very teachings) to believe the best, to not share a “bad report”, to esteem the “man”, yet to your credit, you still went to BG and shared your concerns (bravo!). It is not your fault that you were rebuffed and lied to. How could you have known that his behavior was an entrenched pattern of preying on many young women?
This, and all the other stories, are so beautiful. Beautiful, because they required courage...courage to do the right thing even though it was painful. Each story is one step closer to getting this man's hands away from our precious girls. God bless all the Robins, Megs, Lizzies, Rachels, Ruths, Charlottes, Annettes and Graces...and all the others who haven't told their stories yet.
After reading this story and various comments from previous stories ie: Bill's masterful way of getting parents to not send their children to college (I am one of those) and many others like it a few things have dawned on me.
1. I, although not abused had the course of my life significantly altered by Bills teachings. I have come to acceptance with everything in just the last couple of years. My experiences as a man although not "sexual" in nature were also very damaging. I really am at peace but I think there are many men who share my experiences of needing decades to overcome Bill's damage.
2. Reading Robin's story it is abundantly clear that Bill's actions were detrimental and inappropriate to a great number of young women. However, if he is looking for those that have ought against him, it really is all of us. He has defrauded EVERY SINGLE person who has been affiliated with his teachings and home school program through his actions.
Maybe that's where he should start.
Ryan
Ryan,
You have alluded to something I don't think has been addressed fully. That is the issue of how treatment of the young men affected you all. I hope there will be more of this sort of thing addressed so healing can come to many damaged emotions.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/marcus-story-touching-the-invisible-electric-fence/
This story begins to deal with it, though this was the first post of it's kind from a guy's perspective.
Ryan is right. The defrauding goes far beyond the sexual side. It reaches every single person who ever bought into ATI or IBLP. That this is the kind of man our families trusted is horrific and nauseating.
Ryan-"although not abused had the course of my life significantly altered by Bills teachings"
This is pretty much the synopsis for the last 20 years of my life Ryan. You are NOT alone as a male affected negatively by IBLP, et al. Perhaps someday my story will be here on RG as well, but for now I agree with your sentiment. Godspeed, brother.
@ Ryan Sapp: I feel that the inappropriate advances, harassment, and abuse toward women is so overt and plain as day, that it is more difficult to evaluate the damage to men affected by BG's ideologies as well. This is definitely a topic that I would like to learn more about as time allows for sufficient analysis.
Your comment brought this article back to my mind. Although it is probably more extreme than what you were looking for, I can personally identify with a lot of the author's self-loathing as a result of this type of teaching.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/a-different-kind-of-sexual-abuse/
Robin,
Thank you for having the courage to tell your story and for the grace and humility with which you shared it. I remember when you first posted in the comment section, after just discovering this site that you had decided to come forward and tell your story, and here it is. Well done. I am so glad that so many of you women who were groomed, harassed and in some cases molested, have had the courage to come forward so that others may no longer be in harms way. Well done and God bless you and your family.
Robin, thank you for sharing your story with such courage and grace. I am praying for you and your precious family today, especially. Much love to you, Sweet Friend!
Beautiful account of your hearts journey. . . Truly! I know this could not have been easy for you but the blessings that will come of all this! Awesome!
Thank you for allowing us to love this paty of you!
~ Mickey ♥
As soon as the page loaded and I saw the title my heart wrenched. I knew who it was going to be. I almost couldn’t read it. Why do these stories keep getting closer to me? Charlotte’s brother worked on landscaping reminding me of when my brother was asked to be the head of landscaping at headquarters (he declined). I remember the rumors about Meg but we were told she was twenty-eight and that it was her dad that said no to a marriage. Rachel was my team leader in Taiwan. Now Robin. I didn’t know her well at all but I looked up to her and wished I knew her better. Her brother was our family coordinator for a while and I remember her family at several Detroit area functions. I also remember a certain female Detroit committee member spouting off about the ridiculous things that Bill Gothard required of his secretaries using Robin, having to roll her hair because it was too curly, as an example. I remember thinking, “So much for the ten unchangeables.”
That same women another time spoke what turned out to be very prophetic words when the Flint training center was purchased. Everyone was so excited but she said something to the effect of “That’s great but all I can say is they better not send any of the Indy people up to run it because our Detroit kids will eat them alive.” It was a strange way to say it but I knew what she meant…..and I agreed with her. You see in Detroit Mr. Gothard was still Bill. There were some committee members who had volunteered their time for over thirty years. Bill was the guy who did a seminar and then we all sat around his hotel room laughing, joking, and eating egg salad sandwiches and root beer together. I was a committee kid but he wasn’t on a pedestal for me. He was just Bill. In talking with a group of friends at my first Basic Seminar I actually refered to him as Bill and got a bunch of strange looks. I tried to figure out why they were looking at me like that and then realized that at age 12 I was probably supposed to say “Mr. Gothard”. I never made that mistake again. haha
They did send Indy staff up to run Flint and the clash was almost immediate. Thankfully I was too busy with Character First in Detroit to be too involved in all of that but I do remember watching as local parents' and committee members’ eyes were opened to what a training center really was. I remember Flint’s grand opening, where I introduced Mr. Gothard to my soon to be fiancé. So many were commenting on the student staff that had been brought in to serve at the banquet. Things like “these kids are wound so tight” and “they seem terrified to make a mistake”. Ultimately the Detroit committee folded because with the beginning of the Character Inn the Detroit ministry was no longer needed.
It was a mixed blessing I guess because the ending of the Detroit committee and my up coming marriage at the time pretty much ended my involvement with IBLP ministries. I loved the people on that committee and they are still dear to my heart. I want so much to believe that if Robin’s family had told the committee what had happened that we would have believed her, but there is no way to be sure how it would have been handled. Thank you for coming forward now and I’m soooooo sorry that you didn’t feel safe enough to share what happened back then.
Robin & Brian, Fred & Barb - I thank you SO very much for sharing this story. I have the same feeling of righteous anger on your behalf that I have felt reading the other stories posted here. It is just bizarre behavior that BG exhibits.
Some observations:
As with many other members of his staff, the hiring of staff based entirely on appearance and not actual qualifications is galling to me to say the least. To get my job I took multiple tests, exams, interviews, and a background check. To hire someone based solely on appearance (especially a female) is predatory sexism at its very base. It is indefensible and inexcusable. He has no legitimate means of hiring people if that is his standard. And his predisposition towards girls that he is old enough to be the grandfather of is extraordinarily creepy and inappropriate.
As for the continued hypocrisy of his teachings, allow me to refer to the Basic Seminar Manual, Pg 2, Areas of Conflict - Self Image. "...an overwhelming majority...would change inborn features...By this they are saying that God's workmanship is inferior...".
So, in the case of Robin, Gothard wanted her to change her hair, her teeth, and her skin. All things that were inborn features the Creator chose to bless her with. So, BG and IBLP, do you guys actually believe in and practice your own teachings? It does NOT LOOK LIKE IT! (what say you Alfred, care to defend this?)
Also, I have a sister, and I was fortunate to be friends with a few girls over my lifetime. Neither my father nor NONE of their fathers EVER stroked their ankles and legs. Again, this is grossly out of order behavior and I am SO very grateful that Fred did intervene on behalf of his daughter. Gothard is very lucky he did not pull a stunt like that on a man of my father's caliber. He may have ended up in the ER. (justifiably in my book I may add)
My only observation on this statement "Bill said my naturally curly hair was, “distracting and worldly.” He revealed that, “It might be a temptation to men that you have such wild curly hair.”" ...is to say What. The. Actual. What??!? I just can not explain that.
Lastly, I am extremely grateful for the testimony of your parents in this incident as well. I am sure that will confound some of the BG/ATI/IBLP apologists who appear here from time to time. I look forward to seeing how they will try to debunk this story.
Blessings to you dear ones who have been harmed and are speaking out. It is deeply appreciated. Godspeed.
Sad, You say BG was lucky he didn't try a stunt like that with a daughter of someone of your father's caliber. Don't you think he was sly enough to scope out the caliber of father in each case? My guess is that he was very careful to do that. Most predators are so very calculating about things like that, unfortunately.
As much as he talked about wisdom, we really did need it.
I had that very thought this morning while reading Robin's description of her father.
I know from personal experience he was always scoping out the land for vulnerable girls. He would ask prying questions to truest how far he could go. He attempted to imply to me several times that certain parts of my life were rebellion to my parents authority, something completely untrue and I told him as much. I knew I had my parents backing. My dad stood up to him for things in our family that were not what AITA taught. My dad would have reacted very strongly if even a whiff of impropriety had occured.
I think think he was excellent at hunting out the situations he could exploit. He chose his victims with care. He was an expert at sniffing out those he could or could not target.
I have noticed Alfred's absence the last few days as well.
Can I just ask that we not call Alfred out too strongly right now? I imagine that with all that has transpired in the last week or so, he is probably reeling. Struggling. Confused. Hurting.
While I agree that his staunch defence of Bill can be ... irritating ... please remember that he is looking at the downfall of a man whom he sees as a father figure, a man whom he has admired, and a man who has blessed his life for more than 40 years.
Let's please not taunt or embarrass him. Let's show him the same grace and love that we would wish to be shown if we, ourselves, were standing in his shoes. Let's also show the world that we do not shoot our wounded.
Thanks!
Wendy, thank you for that comment. very thoughtful; all of this is really just sad in so many ways.
Good words, Wendy
Trying to give up snark for LENT; thanks Wendy
Well put WendyA! We should extend to Alfred the same grace that we would desire to be extended towards us. I am sure that Alfred's head, just like the majority of ours, is reeling with all the information and all that has happened recently.
This website is sooo full of grace. Thank you, all.
I am concerned for all the people hurting right now; I have a feeling their numbers are greater than we know. Just remember what it was like when our worldview crashed down and started from scratch. It was HARD dealing with faith being shattered and trusting anyone again. My thoughts and prayers are with those who are at that point right now.
Please, may I ask for forgiveness. After reading my comment it does come off as sounding snarky. I am quite interested in Alfred's view-point and because of work schedule, sickness and church responsibilities it has been difficult to keep up with any new comments. That truly is all I meant by my comment. (Just five minutes ago, I was reading the RG thread "Moving On" dated 4 March 2013 where Alfred made the comment, "I missed your reply, Eliza. This forum format leaves a bit to be desired.") Alfred if you are reading this I beg your forgiveness as well.
Thanks all. I am keeping up. There is a lot going on. My son is still on staff, so there is that part . . . and seeking to see what one can and should do in support of a man that I still love. Robin's story did hit me hard since I can relate to the situation, the expectations, the parents. I want things fixed. I think they can be. I will do whatever I can to that end.
I do deeply appreciate the kind words and thoughts . . . Wendy, KH, others. A worthy adversary is almost as valuable as a treasured friend . . . sometimes more, since you hear and have to work through things you will not hear anywhere else. We who know Jesus will be soon be holding hands with Bill, standing around Jesus, worshiping Him. He alone is worthy, He alone has ever been worthy, He has captured our hearts.
Fair enough , Alfred....let's take this in small steps: how 'bout you hold Bill's hand, I'll hold your yours ???
Thanks Alfred. I'm really curious to know, what does your son say about the atmosphere where he is on staff, since Bill Gothard's resignation? What do the staff think of the situation?
I will hold your hand any day :-)
Mood is serious but not depressed. There are good people there. I don't know how many know Chris Hogan, but he has been for some time officially "Director" of ATI. A good man, a very good man. He was featured on one of the Duggar episodes . . . where they did "Marriage Counseling" in Puerto Rico? There are others firmly in charge . . . so it is not anything like the headless chicken. I have lived that sort of thing . . . THAT can be really depressing.
Mr. Gothard has no contact with any of them. That is by everyone's decree, wish. Bill has enough to focus on . . . and so does everyone else.
Alfred,
Glad to see you back. I was worried when we did not hear from you in a few days. Your family has been in our prayers. I am glad that you feel that something needs to be done and I do understand that you do love Bill Gothard and that you want to help.
I need to say, in the interest of complete disclosure . . . there is no official contact. Some visit him on personal time. A lot of them care a lot about him.
Thank you, Kevin. That really means a lot.
That's an odd choice of euphemism... Yeah, I won't hold BG's hand... No offense...
I think Robin's dad is of the highest caliber. He believed Robin and confronted Bill.
I don't think anyone intended to imply with their comments anything but that, but I think the term "caliber" is being unintentionally misused here. Perhaps "temperament" would be a better choice in the sentence, "Gothard is very lucky he did not pull a stunt like that on a man of my father's caliber. He may have ended up in the ER. (justifiably in my book I may add)." Replace "caliber" with "temperament" and I think you have what I hope was intended by this sentence.
Thank you. As another daughter of Fred, I would agree that my dad is of the highest caliber.
I took exception to the use of the word caliber when I read it too, but I do think "temperament" is likely what was meant here.
Holly, you are very blessed with such parents. When I expressed some concerns to my parents after "serving" at a training center for a year and a half, I was told that I was just burnt out, bitter, and exaggerating. There was a lot that happened that I never even shared with my parents because I knew I would not have been believed and also probably reprimanded for being bitter.
I apologize for the inappropriate use of the word "caliber" and agree 1,000% that "temperament" would be a MUCH better word in my statement about my own dad. If the moderators could swap out the words that would be great.(i would edit it if I could) I meant no offense, especially since Robin's dad DID do the right thing - even if he handled it differently than my own father would have- after all we in the Family are all different, thankfully. Apologies!
Thank you for clarifying! No offense taken. I could see by the general tone of your comment that you meant no offense.
I appreciate all the supportive and understading words that have been directed to my sister and parents.
These past months have been really hard on me. Sleepless nights and nightmares as I read these stories and memories start to come back. After attending ITC and Dallas and receiving a personal invitation to HQ,I felt really special. When he told me that my mole distracted from my smile and that he would pay to have it removed, I told him I had to talk to my Dad. My Dad received countless calls from him because my Dad kept telling him no. I have held such guilt since the early 90's because I emotionally couldn't handle staying longer than 4 months. Every time he would put his hand on my knee or nudge my shoulder with his I would justify that he was like a Grandfather to me. When I told him I was leaving I will never forget. My brother and several others were in the room but he physically boxed me in a corner and wanted to know if I was engaged, I have never forgotten the way his eyes leered at me. I was shocked at the physical contact and I have no idea what was going through everyone's mind. Again, we received countless calls from him after I came home over several years until I told him I was getting married, I never heard from him again and I tried very hard to block it out of my mind!
K, Hugs to you...
Think about looking into the eyes of Jesus and painful memories will fade. "The Lord your God is with you...He will take great delight in you; in his love he will no longer rebuke you, but will rejoice over you with singing."
Yikes! That is so awful!!! I'm sorry, K.
We have three daughters and we got as far as Basic. Several families in our homeschool warned us in the mid 80's that they left Gothad because he was a dirty ol' man and had strange teaching. That was enough for us. Why did so many families still associative with this freak? At the first sign, run. Some of the best advice we gave our girls is if a man places his hand or foot within your sphere, slap the daylights across his face and scream, "I am ashamed of you!" Girls need to send a strong message Don't mess with me. Christisn families often want to create shrinking violets. This training has served our adult girls well.
Mrs McKenzie - as a law enforcement officer I commend you for teaching your daughters how to react to inappropriate advances. BRAVO! We need more parents like you. I would also add that a kick to the nether regions works wonders as well.
The only other thing I would add would be for your kids to report any such incidents to their parents as soon as possible.
"Turn the other cheek" does not apply to men making unwanted advances on women & girls. No matter if the person doing the advances is held in high regard and stands upon a pedestal. Knock them off it. ;)
I left this comment on the Parent's Recovery page. I so wish all involved could just look at this as if an Amber Alert was just sent and we are on the look-out for a dangerous individual. But, once again, our 'training' gets in the way.
This time we cannot let it. This is not an evil report, he is not in authority over us and if he were - ALL THE MORE REASON TO GET RIGHT ON THIS.
Bill Gothard is no different than any other sexual predator. I am sorry if that sounds mean spirited - it is not. He is and we need to protect society from such. That training needs to trump anything we have learned in the past. Thank you to Robin and her family for your courageous and gracious words.
The comment:
"yes, deceived. how deceived. When I think how Bill Gothard and a young lady were "like two teenagers caught..." and how they jumped when someone entered the room, and how he told girls "you are my energy giver" and how he was alone with a young lady on an empty campus with everyone away preparing for a conference (sounds a mite planned, doesn't it? I mean, him being IN CHARGE of the conference and all) Moms and Dads - we were duped. This is not an errant child or adult. This is a calculating man who knows his every move and what to say. This is evil. Would we not say that of the guy next door - after 40 years of traceable behavior? We would. We would say "get him off the streets". This is absolutely no different. We were duped. He is a cunning one, I will say that. Sorriest thing is - he would lie over and over and over to Dads and Moms " oh it was this or that, I would never hurt your daughter" he is so blind. In real life, we would say "That man is sick. He has a problem. Let's get him off the streets and get him help. " "
Yep, about sums it all up===bill is a dirty-ole-man
"Christisn families often want to create shrinking violets."
Hear hear, Janice!! We can't be soldiers and ambassadors for Christ (let alone deal with everyday situations) if we have no backbones.
Janice,
When we entered ATI in 1992, we had never heard of any of these things. In 1982, two years after that scandal, the Miami Beach Convention Center was packed out for the Basic. So whomever the coordinators were in Miami, they were surely willing to invest much time and effort to support the Basic seminar. I never knew there were any people who were upset until the Gothard Discussion List opened up on Yahoo. That was the first time I even heard there was a scandal and at that time when my children were young, we were doing ok and the GDL was not really bent on correcting anything. Bill is incredibly good at manipulation and so the whole ideology of the bad report was used to silence people including myself when I had some interactions with Bill. The bottom line is that people didn't know about these issues and the obvious folks who did know were either unwilling or unable to do something about it. Gary Fraley left at one point. That did raise an alarm for me but Gary, no doubt not wanting to harm God's work, did not give a bad report. So, all we knew was that he left. People that I know personally who were close to the Gothard's never said a word. Questionable situations happened along the way but we were always led to believe that the other guy had a problem.
just like the robin i always knew and loved you have once again pointed my eyes to Jesus, who really is the answer and always, and only, enough! i'm proud of you, sweet girl.
and this.. "but the many women who have been hurt are worth standing up for. We are a family. I can find rest in knowing that the innocent have been warned, that we stood up for the oppressed, and that we have sounded the sirens. Forgiveness is what will free the broken."
yes. and amen.
~and fred & barb, thank you for what you shared and being the voice for so many parents that i know are also dealing with the pieces of the past... it is not just us as students who have been hurt by this. grateful to be on the battlefield with soldiers such as you.
It's so great to see parents who affirm the trauma, which the institute caused to their children, and purposefully state the truth.
Dear Robin, thank you and your precious family for sharing. I am finally able to believe that the time of help and breaking every chain has come for me now too. Thank you with all my heart and many, many tears.
Last night, I fell asleep to the voice of my husband reading the precious words that so many of you took the time to write. I am overwhelmed. Thank you for rallying around the truth. I am so very proud of my family in Christ, and I feel incredibly at peace. "When the angry surges blow o'er my tempest driven soul, I am peaceful for I know...my Anchor holds."
Thanks Robin
Robin, thank you for being willing to share a painful part of your life, so that others can be protected. Your words gave all the glory to Christ. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit can we, as believers, forgive as you have done. I want everyone to know that I got to witness your integrity and love for the Lord first-hand as I lived with you for over a year. Daily you pointed me back to Christ through your words and actions, just as you are doing here again with your story. I love you!
Thank you also Brian, Fred and Barb! I am praying for all of you through this!
I remember on one occasion Mr. Brocklehurst's own daughters stand there at the school with him as he lectures the students on appearance. His requirements for his daughter's appearance were quite different than for the girls in the "evangelical, charitable" establishment. Jane Eyre as the narrator of the story notes the difference, and the reader is better able to discern Mr. Brocklehurst's character.
When I had my eyes opened here (and it was gradually, because I first dicovered this site two years ago) it was like the prison walls cracked, light came through,and I began to walk away from all the lies I had been taught over years of IBLP/ATI influence.
But discovering all that has recently been revealed here has really been shocking. There has been such grief for all the victims, especially the young women who were singled out for "special attention"(YUCK!) by the Great and Mighty...Oz. I was involved as an ATI parent and I have felt so betrayed by this man and all those who knew something was wrong and stayed silent. (I'm thinking of the board members and responsible adults, not the young people)
Thank you for this website and the courage it took to share such personal stories.Thanks to the editors and those who have taken the time and great effort to write these things out so the truth may be known.
I am so thankful for all of the women who are stepping up and sharing these stories. It is a very difficult thing to do--especially after being raised in teachings that don't allow anyone to give an "evil report" or stand up to their authority. May the Lord strengthen you at this time. May He give you peace and comfort when the bad memories return and your heart is breaking. He will carry you through. You are heroes for standing up against sin and evil!!
Just this morning as I was praying, I was thinking that all of this coming out in the press/news may bring forth many others who were abused by Bill. For those who have already spoken out--your courage may be the thing that frees many others from the bondage of Bill's teachings and wrong behavior.
In my adolescence as a member of ATI, I was always under the impression that BG had male assistants. I also presumed this was because males were favored (sexism) as more competent, and also to avoid the appearance of evil or inappropriateness. I actually never knew that he had female secretaries until this year (2014). I knew of several of his male assistants and just thought he always had males for a reason. I can't help but wonder how I could have missed that females were working closely with him. How did I miss that??? Why did I have that impression? Were things said to divert attention or cover up? I don't know. I was young, and my time in ATI feels like an eternal blur, and it's difficult for me to recall things verbatim or place occurrences accurately on a timeline. I do recall my father making a statement in passing once, regarding BG having male assistants - insinuating it was a higher standard or a decision based on purity.
As a former ATI parent, I had made that same assumption. I was shocked when I was made aware of RG and the allegations against Mr. Gothard's sexual harassment of females. I say this because my own son was chastised and raked over the coals at the ITC for hugging a female friend who was the same age and they had known each other since they were three. (They hadn't seen each other in over a year!) Because of this strict behavior I never dreamed that Mr. Gothard would ever place himself in such compromising situations! Surely he only had male assistants, aides and confidants. That is what makes this so surreal for me as a parent. Please don't blame yourself as well as others who are beating themselves for not seeing this!
In the seminars, the assistants were always male (at least that was my impression) especially in the early days and early 70s. Maybe it changed later but I'm sure that was just a cover.
I seem to have noticed in at least one or two of the stories (Meg's?) that the young women mention traveling to conferences but spending their time in their hotel rooms or out shopping, invisible to the masses. It does raise the question, why did they need to be there in the first place? And was BG trying to "hide" them?
Things did change over the years. By the time we joined (1994), he no longer had young women working directly for him as assistant or secretary . . . his sister was his personal secretary. I think the young men really had assumed those roles. He still counseled the young ladies . . .
Alfred, I'm sorry, but you are just mistaken on this.
My family joined ATI in 1992. I worked at IBLP Headquarters from January 1994 through January 1996. There were plenty of young ladies working in his office in those years. I know many of them personally. I know at least 15 of the girls who have come forward with stories of inappropriate contact. And the number keeps growing. Frankly, it's taking quite an emotional toll on me, this finding out——on an almost daily basis——about one more friend who was sexually harassed while working at HQ.
I have been in Bill's office (or in the building, or passing by outside on my way home) late at night and seen young ladies still there in his office, well after his sister had gone home. Laura Heiniger was there during the day, yes, but she left at 5 or 6. Bill usually stayed until 10 or 10:30.
The young ladies may not have been called "Mr. Gothard's secretary," but they worked for him, in his office, doing his correspondence, filing, etc. I think that they called it the "Correspondence Department," but don't be fooled. The department adjoined BG's office and had direct access to him at all times. And he had direct access to them.
I'm sorry. I'm sure this is all very hard for you, but I cannot let this misapprehension stand. You are mistaken.
Alfred,
During the late 80s when Ruth and I had reconnected with Bill seeking his repentance and change, he assured us that what happen during the 70s could never happen again. He emphatically shared that his sister Laura was his secretary so there was not chance that he could get close to someone again and "defraud some one else like he had Ruth (implied)". Well from the stories we read on RG that was not the complete truth.
Larne Gabriel
With the risk of it seeming trite, I was mildly surprised to hear of this "correspondence department" of which several have spoken. I wrote BG a letter at 11 years old about how I couldn't possibly stop being angry and that his step-by-step notion was failing me. I thought maybe he'd send me some more ideas! :) I never heard back. Haha! Thus my incorrect assumption that there was no correspondence... I assumed he just got too much fan mail. :)
Alfred,
I was also at HQ and can confirm that there were always young women working with Mr. Gothard. Mrs. Heininger is his secretary who screens calls and sets up appointments. On the opposite side of Mr. Gothard's office is where the correspondence department is housed. I worked for the ministry from 1988 to 1996 and there were always at least one if not three or four girls working in that department. He also had his male assistants that worked on curriculum development, etc.
I have not posted on RG before, but I have been consistently reading, including all the commentary. Interestingly enough, I have read the posts extending "grace" to Alfred, because, surely, he must be in shock and distress, discovering that all along he was misled, wrong about the person and institution he looked up to, etc, etc.
Obviously, this is not the case. The self-delusion is as strong as ever.
Maybe think about this: When you extend "grace" like that, you conversely deny grace to those who have been (and apparently continue to be) preyed upon by Gothard and his institutions.
I could not let this pass.
Elizabeth; I'm going to push back a little on your comment. surely we all need large amounts of mercy AND truth, considering the harshness of BG and his entire approach, leaning to the side of mercy seems like a good track to go. Also, I don't think too many of Alfreds embellishments have gone uncommented. You can only say "Alfred, wake up...." so many times.
None of this minimizes the horror done to the entire IBLP community. Perhaps kindness will lead us all to repentance.
I find it constantly amazing that we were to "give only good reports" but Bill constantly spoke with the desire to completely tarnish and destroy someone else's reputation and credibility. Even IF the things he said were true (which they weren't, as this article points out that he was willing to fabricate an outright lie), he stilll should not have shared an evil report. According to his own teaching, he was therefore defiling everyone that he shared these reports with. Yet he had no problem spreading malice in order to make himself look good and isolate his victims.
Thank you Robin, your husband, and your parents, for sharing this painful story and reminding us all of the healing of Christ.
I add my gratitude, Robin, for you having the courage to share your experiences. I'm so grateful for your parent's attitude in a very difficult situation. Your dad's courage to speak to Bill Gothard - thank you Heavenly Father.
It seems to me the chain of command worked here and perhaps you were protected from a far worse circumstances than what you had already experienced.
It is so difficult to recognize wrong behaviour when you trust and often don't have real clear proof, possibly lots of doubts, the person is well respected, etc.
My husband related the events between Nathan and David in 2 Sam. 12. Nathan says to David in 2 Sam 12:14a "Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme,..."
Both you and your parents have expressed yourselves so well. Thank you for directing our focus to the Lord Jesus Christ and a God who exercises loving kindness, righteousness and judgement, Jer. 9:24.
I am continuing to be overwhelmed at the outpouring of kindness toward my family and me. Thank you for this gift. It was a heart-wrenching decision to share this story. We wrestled with it for weeks. Two days before the story would be posted, I was still wavering. We met with our wonderful pastor and his darling wife, and God used them to bring me to complete confidence in the Lord. I shared with them how torn I felt about whether to share the story publicly. And they simply said, "Shine the sunlight; it's the only way." It's kind of like in "Horton Hears a Who" when the smallest boy in the town ends up being that one extra "yop" that allowed the town to be heard. Our pastor's simple exhortation is what gave me the final ounce of courage that was needed. I just wanted to publicly thank him for that.
All of you have just really pulled on my heart strings, and I feel like I'm in a huge love fest that God has thrown together for all of us to grow and heal and grieve. Thank you for reaching out to us, and I especially thank some of you girl friends who commented - you know who you are. All is not lost, and nothing is a waste when God has anything to do with it. We are continuing to pray like crazy for Bill Gothard.
Again, Robin, thanks for sharing your testimony. I do think this comment points towards a problem within the greater Church in general. Our battered sheep should feel like they can come forward at any time with their stories and problems without fear of condemnation nor being forced into silence. Surely the Lord is grieved deeply when our wounded and bleeding members are forced into the back of the fold, to cower in the darkness, by other sheep who really are goats in disguise. Wherever corruption and sin is found within the family of God, it is urgent that the Light be shined upon it to clean up the mess and insure there is Justice for the victims.
Robin,
What a great example of courage and grace you are displaying to your children.
This has been the best scandal post. Wow! I love this family's resolve to keep short accounts with God and regardless of hurts etc, they did not ditch God or His Spirit to walk in sin; but rather, as the parents said, they adjusted. That is what we did too.
This is not an unusual occurrence as a believer. It has happened to me many times in life but one thing I know, Jesus is real, He does want you to know Him, not just know about Him and He wants to set you free. This family is not on anyone's side except for God's side. Me too.
Thanks for sharing.
Robin- Thank you for sharing your story.
For parents reading this, please receive the grace Jesus offers you. My parents were doing the very best they could, and I’m sure you were as well. I work with kids whose parents do everything imaginable to avoid spending time with them, and it has made me overwhelmingly grateful that my parents may have cared too much rather than too little. Know that every parent messes up in some way, and that Jesus offers escape and recovery to your children for whatever they’ve gone through. The worst thing you can do is to say anything to the effect of “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” to your children about the Institute and Bill Gothard. It’s like offering them an olive that has been soaked in cyanide. Sure, it’s still got some negligible caloric value, but poison by virtue of what it’s been soaked in. The best thing you can do is exactly what my father did for me. He believed me immediately, insisted that I send him any information I could gather, listened without interrupting when I told him about my experiences, and apologized again and again for the hurt his involvement in the organization caused me. It taught him things, he said, but nothing worth the pain he saw in my face as I told him what it was really like to be on the inside edges. “I would trade every minute, every book, every conference to keep you from this pain I see in you right now.” I could have bawled for the rest of my life. It was a lifetime of misunderstanding and disconnect blown away in a few sentences, and the greatest thing he’s ever done for me.
Thank you for acknowledging that there are parents who are trying to do what was right for their children.
How wonderful to hear the report of your father. He believed you and listened - thank you Heavenly Father.
Thank you for sharing.
Gracie, just last week I spoke with my son for over an hour over the phone. He had spent most of the weekend reading the things posted on RG. He was amazed at it all he had learned. He was born the year we got into ATI (1988)and was eleven years old when we left ATI (1999). I explained the the strife that my mother had with Mr. Gothard and the IBLP program. This included how we dressed, what we allowed into the house, we allowed them to watch on video, etc. I can't tell you how many times he would say, "Wow" or , "I always wondered about that".
A lot of walls were torn down during that phone call. The conversation basically ended with me asking forgiveness for even being involved at all with the whole mess. He understood our thought of me only wanting the best for him and his siblings. Four days later he called his mom and told her that meant more to him than anything I had ever said or done. God is good!
What a great thing to hear. With enough work and both sides committed, it's never too late or too far gone to repair a damaged relationship. I just hate that all these women's pain had to be the thing that prompted it.
KH- THIS is so good to hear. Praying that it will only be the beginning and that we'll hear more of the same from others!
Gracie,
Thank you for your beautiful words. What a great dad it sounds like you have. That is very big of him to humble himself like that and to show such compassion for you. That is what dads are supposed to do when their daughters share with them how they have been hurt.
And I really like the olive in cyanide analogy. I totally agree. There is no baby in that bath water.
There are some comments about this post standing out among the other sex scandal posts, in a positive way. I would like to comment on this. I don't know why the others said what they said, but all the stories ring true on account of information that is now coming out:
1. Back before or around 1980, Gothard confessed to what he called "moral failures in his life.
2. There is a key, well-known witness - a single witness - to some very inappropriate behavior by Bill Gothard which took place back then. This behavior is as bad or worse than what the more current testimonies speak of.
3. The many testimonies that have come out so far, complete with witnesses to some extent, corroborate with 1. and 2. All of them together point to a very similar pattern of operation.
4. This current post by Robin, her husband and her parents, provides more corroboration, plus some key elements, namely, you have two parents who were made aware of the situation around the time it occurred, and who gently confronted Gothard around the time it occurred, to no avail. You also have two witnesses who testify seeing Gothard in clear violation of his own standards, by sitting on a couch in close proximity to a young girl, in an empty (or nearly so) building.
I just don't see how IBLP is going to pull of discrediting all these people, starting with Gary Smalley, and re-instate Gothard. What saddens me is their stonewalling and "plausible deniability" "stuff" that is still taking place.
I feel like an outsider in some ways since my family was never affiliated with IBLP/ATI except for attending a couple of Basics (1980 and around 2005). However, because I live in a part of Texas where many of our fellow homeschoolers were in ATI, including my daughter-in-law's family and because I actually know some of the men named in some of the documents from 1980-1983, I also feel very attached to the situation. (Let me hasten to say that my daughter-in-law's family is no longer in ATI and they are appropriately following the heart-breaking stories here on RG. My daughter-in-law tells me that she knows another young lady who is working through her thoughts and will likely share her own story of sexual harassment by Bill Gothard in the near future. Since my daughter-in-law was affiliated with ATI until around 2004, her experiences are far more recent than the 80s and even 90s.)
I share the concern, and actually am quite distressed, that IBLP continues to project a position of "business-as-usual". Bill Gothard's name has not been removed from the IBLP website and there is still a link to his personal blog from the website. Please understand, I will not be satisfied just to see Bill Gothard removed. I agree completely with the assessment that all aspects of IBLP need to cease operations. However, in the corporate world, the resignation of an executive due to misconduct would immediately be followed with scrubbing his name from the organizational chart and there would not be a link to his personal blog on the corporate website. I personally know people who would likely make decisions to pull students from the ALERT program and not to attend the Regional Conference in April if it appeared that IBLP was taking the accusations against Bill Gothard seriously.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. IBLP isn't taking the accusations seriously, 'oh, we intereviewed the girls and didn't find anything', though my understanding is most of the girls who have made complaints were never contacted at all.. if IBLP took this seriously, it would collapse just because of people pulling out of the program. I know a staunch ATI family who pulled out because, 'we didn't want anyone to think we were affiliated with that sort of behavior' etc.. Imagine the fallout if IBLP did acknowledge Bill's sins, at this point, even if he is 100% wiped from the ministry, there'd be too much doubt, questions, and trouble, and people would just move on. IBLP can't afford that, therefore they aren't going to really address it.
Wow Gracie- Thanks!
One of the best things that came out of my 7 years on staff was becoming your friend. Thank you for your courage...miss you friend !
Aww, Annie. I love you, and I feel exactly the same about you. Thank you so much. Hugs
Gothard got away with highly inappropriate sexually-charged behavior toward nubile minor-aged girls for decades. Meanwhile, how many folks were condemned by IBLP's legalistic and mercenary views on divorce/remarriage, and treated like third class citizens in the evil empire of right-wing Christian fundamentalism. I'm glad I'm all the way of it. People like Gothard are morally disgusting.
My world has been spinning ever since I came upon the news of his resignation this morning. I was on their website trying to find something about young men's ministry, to where we could send our 15 yr old boy this summer, when I caught a glimpse of the news on the interim president. Of course I wanted to know what happened with Bill and clicked on "his" link, only to come up empty handed. Came back to IBLP's main page and looked some more, but I was not able to see anything. I could have just missed it. BUT the one thing that makes me angry is that in spite of these "allegations", IBLP has the audacity to link him to their website. What is this, some kind of "suspension with pay" while being investigated??? This was the 3rd or 4th time when I try "hooking up" with them and start something with my family. We have attended their Basic, Advanced and one ATI session. I cancelled our family's $9/mo subscription to the Embassy Institute right away. They better deal with this according to the Word, not IBLP!!
I am proud of not only of this woman's husband but her father. One thing about predators is they make themselves the victims and they make the victim feel like an idiot or just confused. One who is truly the brunt of this kind of treatment isn't looking for it. They are usually one who doesn't want to come forward and has endured a while trying to make sense of it. They usually wait until their conscience is convincing enough they realize something isn't right.
I also believe these women for many reasons. One is they all could have made up horrible accusations etc. They didn't they stuck to facts and truth. Because they did that they all lined up a pattern. They have others who agree and have said they didn't see it but they can say they saw them alone etc. with BG. BG has been able to get away with this because of his Righteous Clout and Let's face it most people want to believe good about someone. It's easy to fall into a desire to see the best and be hopeful. Anyone with decency doesn't want to falsely accuse anyone especially in a sexual or perverted accusation. Because of this it is easy to show that these girls and in this case this father had character.
I just have to throw this in there. I do not agree with fighting over doctrine among believers when Christ is the center and only way to heaven. That being said. BG teaching are such and so contrary to scripture that girls are allowed to be abused. I can't stand it when religion covers up abuse in the name of God and it is false. God gave us authority and law for a reason. My concern is that IBLP will not want to handle this under the Law but make themselves the law. However BG seemes to only have committed things that would require an eye witness or a confession to get him into trouble. Statute of limitation keeps him safe in certain states. I know. That was my case with abuse from another who's family Followed BG teaching and covered their son's sin of sexually abusing his little sister and married him off to cure his sin to my older sister. Sounds far too close the the Whole Steve thing. HMMMM. Perverted spirits are not taken care of by marrying one off!
Sweet Robin....
I was so saddened to read your story, along with others. But so thankful for your courage and wisdom in making the decision to share.
Praying for you as you continue to heal. May the Lord use this to reveal the truth to those still blinded.
God Bless you sweet friend
Shannon (Afentul) Alexander
Shannon,
My dad told me yesterday that someone left a very sweet message and that I had better check it out. As soon as I saw your name and read your words, I felt hugged by the Lord. Thank you for your prayers and tenderness and courage. Much love to you, precious friend. xo
"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience." Colossians 3:12
~robin
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23 While we are careful not to judge, we can certainly be "fruit inspectors!"