Bill Gothard's Statement, April 17, 2014
Bill Gothard released a long-awaited public statement last Thursday evening, April 17, 2014, regarding his resignation from the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). We at Recovering Grace have spent several days processing this statement and considering our response.
We see several positive aspects to this letter. Gothard generally acknowledges that the Christian life is not about ministry, standards, or outward appearances, but about allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself through us as we experience His grace and mercy anew in our lives each and every day. He specifically confesses to focusing on his ministry over the needs of people and to having “left his first love.” We are thankful for this acknowledgment.
We are also encouraged that Gothard admits to unjustly terminating staff members from the IBLP ministry. As he states, “People who didn’t ‘measure up’ were cut off and those who were not seen as adding value to the ministry were treated as though they were expendable.” Likewise, he acknowledges that a focus on external behavior caused many to feel that “expectations where[sic] so high that they could never measure up to them.” Both of these acknowledgments are crucial, as they appear to acknowledge what happens when we “teach as doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matthew 15:9 and Mark 7:7)
Even with these positive elements, however, the statement leaves us troubled. We have concluded that Gothard’s statement, as it stands, is incomplete. We realize that only God can see Gothard’s heart to know whether his statement is indeed a genuine first step of repentance. For this reason, we have decided to share with you four areas of concern that we as a team still have after reading the statement. Gothard asked us to review his statement prior to its release, and we responded that the following issues would certainly be raised if he released it in the form sent to us, which he has done.
1. Gothard acknowledges that his emphasis on outward appearance resulted in parents putting undue pressure on their children. While Gothard refers to a “wrong focus” that led to these negative consequences, we would have liked to see him reference specific teachings, rules, and principles. Parents did not simply imitate his outlook on the Christian faith; they followed guidelines that he dictated to them as requirements for being involved in the Advanced Training Institute (ATI) home education program. We hope to see Gothard more fully address these issues, and publicly retract the wrong teachings to which he refers.
2. Gothard’s failure to address his disqualification for Christian leadership in ministry leaves the door open for a return to IBLP. This concern is based on past events. On July 22, 1980, Gothard released a statement to seminar pastors that, in many ways, was similar to the one he released last Thursday on his personal website. It addressed wrong priorities within his ministry, and then stated that he was taking a leave of absence from IBLP (then IBYC) to seek the Lord’s direction. As we have described in previous articles on Recovering Grace, this leave of absence lasted a mere seventeen days.
In both Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3, Christians are given specific qualifications for positions of leadership, including blamelessness (being above reproach), humility, gentleness, self-control, uprightness, holiness, and being of good report. Although we know that God’s mercy, grace, and forgiveness are extended to each of us when we fall, we hope to see Gothard acknowledge that his actions disqualify him from positions of Christian leadership.
3. Gothard did not outline a plan for avoiding similar failures in the future. Has he submitted himself to the accountability of a local church for spiritual leadership? Has he sought professional counseling to help work through his areas of temptation and abusiveness, so that he might understand fully how his actions have impacted others?
It is our firm belief that Gothard needs to take these important steps going forward, lest he find himself repeating his past mistakes. As an outward manifestation of good faith and as a valuable method of public accountability, we would hope to see Gothard outline the corrective measures he is going to implement.
4. In his statement, Gothard acknowledges that his behavior with selected young women “crossed the boundaries of discretion and were wrong,” yet he states two sentences later that he “has not touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent.” This issue concerns us the most. There is a clear contradiction in this portion of Gothard’s statement, since the specific behaviors he confesses to (holding hands, hugs, and touching of feet or hair) are behaviors that even our broader culture views as sexual in nature between adults. These unwanted behaviors are grossly inappropriate with students and subordinates, and sexually confusing to sheltered young women brought up in the strict “purity culture” espoused by Gothard and his followers. Furthermore, since these indiscretions took place in an employment setting, his actions would clearly be understood as sexual harassment by the standard legal definitions of the term. This behavior was persistent and sexual in nature, and must be acknowledged as such.
We also would have liked to see Gothard confess to the more clearly sexually charged behaviors he engaged in with these women—behaviors which have been confirmed by multiple women and even by witnesses where applicable. We believe that a confession of the following behaviors would have demonstrated a commitment on Gothard’s part to complete repentance and change:
a) gifts of money designated for the purchase of Gothard’s preference in supportive undergarments;
b) private counseling sessions with young women who worked for Gothard, wherein he requested and repeatedly dwelt upon details of these very young women’s personal sexual experiences and temptations;
c) strong suggestions and/or mandates from Gothard of medical cosmetic enhancement procedures for young women who worked closely with him, as he cited their physical imperfections as “distractions” from ministry;
d) dismissal of concerns about and objections to Gothard’s behavior that were raised by the young women in his employ and their families at the times of the behavior, when Gothard insisted that they misunderstood his intentions.
Gothard also declares that he has “never kissed a girl.” This statement is a clear denial of Charlotte’s story. He also states (as referenced above) that he has never “touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent.” We are deeply concerned for the women who have told their stories on Recovering Grace. Their selfless actions have served to warn others of danger and have emboldened many more women to come forward with their own stories. Some of these women have already endured a great deal of backlash for their boldness, and they chose to speak out knowing that such backlash was likely. They were the prey of a man who, for more than forty years, has actively bypassed any attempted accountability in order to engage in predatory behavior. Gothard’s behavior caused physical, emotional, spiritual, and sexual trauma to dozens of young women, many of whom are still suffering the effects today. Gothard’s statement denies the truth of their stories, is disingenuous in its insinuation that his persistent actions over many years were merely misunderstood, and lacks a clear commitment to repentance, change, and permanent retreat from a teaching and ruling position.
As much as we at Recovering Grace would like to accept Gothard’s statement in good faith as a heartfelt apology, we find ourselves unable to offer a response without speaking the truth as boldly as the many IBLP and ATI alumni who have told us their stories.
We urge the IBLP board of directors to publicly address these issues, as they are now accountable for the past, present, and future of IBLP and ATI. We understand that Gothard offered his confession to the board several weeks ago, and several parties who were interviewed as part of the internal investigation have informed Recovering Grace that they confirmed many of the allegations. Yet at this time, there has not been an acknowledgement of the truth from the board. We urge the board to clearly address the specific reasons for Gothard’s resignation, publicly recant the specific teachings that led to the abuses to which he has confessed, and take all measures needed to ensure that these violations against women never happen again within the ministry.
Finally, we reiterate the necessity of IBLP soliciting an independent and external investigation of these and other issues regarding the misconduct, teachings, and abuses of Bill Gothard and others within the organization. We believe that such an action would show to the world that the current leadership of IBLP is ready to operate in a transparent manner going forward. The truth has been revealed; it is now time for godly leaders to step forward and take action.
Wonderfully put.
Nothing suprises me anymore. I just read the articles and then scan the comments to see if Alfred taps out. Apparently not so I can look forward to more. Yay me!!
Come on people! A whole website dedicated to picking apart another ministry? God is perfectly capable of judging His own house. Beware of becoming a prideful Edomite who takes pleasure when another is disciplined by God. Have any of you spent an hour in prayer for the man? Come on!! The unsaved world is watching how we Christians treat each other. Pride and arrogance is far worse than touching someone's hair.
Lisa, please read around a bit more. Gothard is accused of criminal behavior. This is no mere matter of occasional hurt feelings or misunderstandings. And I don't call IBLP a ministry anymore. It's a religious organization, yes, but it teaches a false Gospel, and there have been too many cover ups in the entire history of the organization.
My opinion is that God IS judging IBLP and Gothard, and doing so publicly. If God chooses to use Recovering Grace to do so, fine, so be it. (This website isn't the first public exposure either.)
God isn't going to tolerate false teachers for forever.
I gave Bill decades. Don't really feel like sparing another hour. Thanks for the guilt trip though, you've listened well.
"Have any of you spent an hour in prayer for the man?" As a matter of fact, Lisa, YES! Many of us on this site really do pray faithfully for Bill, and for the Lord to bring him to repentance: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/today-is-our-day-of-prayer/.
I forgot to say, Lisa, how can you possibly know whether or not any of us have ever, or do pray for Bill on a regular basis? Your statement/question is actually a judgment in and of itself, you assume that we don't pray for Bill. A good portion of us do pray for him, in fact, Recovering Grace called for a day of prayer not too long ago, and later that evening, Bill submitted his resignation and (poor excuse of) an apology/confession.
"The unsaved world is watching how we Christians treat each other"
Yes, Lisa, the unsaved world is indeed watching to see how we treat the victims in our midst, so they will know whether they can be safe with us. I assure you, condemnation of an abusive leader is a POSITIVE testimony to them, not a negative one.
"A whole website dedicated to picking apart another ministry?"
We are called to call out false teachers. Gothard teaches a false gospel and it is right to call him to account regarding his teachings.
"Have any of you spent an hour in prayer for the man? "
I think you would be surprised how many of us have spent large amounts of time in prayer for Bill Gothard. I have a question for you Lisa. Do you believe that each of the 50 women that have been victimized by Bill Gothard are equally deserving of prayers? Aren't each and every one of them as important and deserving of our love as Bill Gothard? Have you spent an hour in prayer for each of them? No? Have you spent at least an hour in prayer for them collectively?
"The unsaved world is watching how we Christians treat each other."
Yes, indeed. All the more important that we Christians deal with a child molester in our house and do not continue to expose innocent young people to him. All the more important that we take this matter seriously, that the world, saved and unsaved, is watching.
When you make statements like this:
"Pride and arrogance is far worse than touching someone's hair."
in which you diminish and minimize the hurts of dozens of young women by suggesting that it only amounts to touching someone's hair, what type of message does your callousness towards sexual abuse victims send to the so called "unsaved"? How does that look to them, when they see that Christians have lifted up a leader to such heights that they are willing to willfully minimize his predatory behavior and dismiss it as "touching hair"?
Have you been to some of the non-religious sites and read the comments that have followed their posting of the Bill Gothard abuse stories? I can assure you that their response has been: 1) far more harsh than the treatment that BG is receiving here at Recovering Grace, which has been relatively gentle given the nature of his actions and 2) Far healthier than the response of many of you supporters who want to minimize the severe damage that Gothard has done, by trivializing his actions. They may lack gentleness in their responses, but they are not afraid to call predatory behavior out for what it is, rather than protect a man who has been wrongfully elevated, turning a deaf ear to the voices of those who have been damaged by the man.
Lisa - You are correct. The unsaved world is watching how well the church can recognize and deal with error.
Thanks for bringing that out, it's like you're re-enforcing the entire point of RG.
Yes. Those are definitely my concerns as well.
Yes, yes, yes.
Right on.
Great job of majoring in the majors. I hope your well written appeals are weighed, and accepted. Well done.
Yes. Very well stated.
You have targeted my biggest concerns. If Mr. Gothard truly wants to return to fellowship with the Lord Jesus, he needs to fully own his sin.The passive tone of his apology still puts the burden on those he wronged. God, of course, sees his heart, but it does seem as if one who "made his living" with well chosen words, would express true repentence differently.
As for the IBLP board recanting the wrong teaching, I'm not holding my breath. My guess is that, despite good intentions, they don't see the error themselves. Why else would they remain on a board of an organization that promotes so much legalism? Perhaps it is not too late for some to remove themselves from the pot of these cultic waters before they are fully cooked.
Like so many others I know, I have not commented before on this site, but have followed every article and comment. I applaud the courage of those who have shared their painful stories, as well as many, particularly parents, who have ruefully admitted being taken in by this deception. Their sorrows have not been wasted and have caused me to become more diligent in examining truth and the application of grace-filled living in my own family.
First, RG you already know I think you're brilliant, well done.
@Linda
I agree with your comments and thank you for commenting. The only reason we have a statement from Bill at all is because of RG and the numbers of people that read and comment. If they had no readers they would have no pull. We are only getting somewhere with Bill because of the sheer numbers involved here. With that being said I would like to encourage those who stand with RG to post comments. They are more powerful than you think. (Actually those opposed to RG are more than welcome to post as well:)
This is going to be a long road with Bill and IBLP. They only admit to what they are forced to. They are much more secure operating behind a veil and in secrecy.
I dealt with my issues regarding IBLP personally without any support or understanding. What I have seen in the last few months is that there are thousands damaged much more severely than I. My heart goes out to all and because of that I would like to see justice for the victims as that is part of the healing process. Validating their experiences is critical. Oh and for those yet to be hurt, we owe it to them
I am an overseas reader of RG website, and there is IBLP in our language operating here, which seems less active these days. You have been doing a great job in trying to assist those, especially the young sisters, who were hurt by the abnormal behavior and tainted teaching of Mr. Gothard and the Institute. I can see many have been healed or in the process of healing.
1 Peter 1:3-7 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade... In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. (7) These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
What a kind comment, SusanY. Thank you.
Yes. We must help those who have been hurt, and make sure it never happens again.
@Ryan - Yes! How incredibly sad and telling that BG and the leadership of this organization will not do the right thing without peer pressure. This is, unfortunately, perfectly consistent with their normal mode of operation- reactions based on keeping up appearances vs righteous acts motivated by the glory of God and a desire to do good for others. Seems like the teaching and the programs are only helpful to those who are "perfect" and if you fail to reach their arbitrary standard, then you are out. It is time for the sake of the victims and others bound up in the web of legalism for Mr. G to take a dose of his own medicine.
True repentance can take a while because first you have to face how sick your sin is (I mean, really FACE it and call it what it is!) and take full responsibility for it. Yeah, BG, so get back to us in a year or two with a REAL statement, right? We'll believe YOU when we see the fruit of repentance.
Yes. Amen. Exactly. Clean it up. Or disappear.
I'm so thankful to see that you have highlighted the same areas that were of concern to me when I read Gothard's statement. It is sad that he didn't take your recommendations to heart, but -- as hard as it is to say this -- none of us are beyond God's reach in terms of continuing to soften hearts. If we expect God's grace in our own lives, how much more should we be willing to see it extended -and extend it ourselves - to others?
Thank you. Excellent.
EXCELLENT. Could not agree more.
This is a well- and correctly- balanced response, IMO.
Thank you for the diligent effort to craft a godly response.
"Gothard did not outline a plan for avoiding similar failures in the future."
The complexity of a plan that would address his confession of losing sight of his First Love as he held onto his "standards" is huge. That same attitude was taught to many of his followers and then re-enforced through disciplinary actions over many years. His whole ministry starts with "What one does." as opposed to "Who one loves."
Reformation comes before restoration. We are reformed by the Blood of Christ to walk in the newness of life. We are further restored by living in light of His resurrection after reformation has occurred.
"“People who didn’t ‘measure up’ were cut off and those who were not seen as adding value to the ministry were treated as though they were expendable.”
If he doesn't have a plan going forward that addresses how his "principles" feed into his prideful mindset then he will leave those who follow him practicing his same sin of pride.
As one who has been cut off by family members for not agreeing to their harsh disciplinarian ways I would love for him to start examining the problems of what his ministry teaches
YES.
Thank you RG for a response so gracefully put, and which addresses the concerns of many of us. As a former ATI parent, the 'standards' we forced on our children as well as ourselves need to be spoken to. I for one, am just starting to find healing from those so called standards, and I am starting to feel the freedom that Grace brings.
Very well stated. Thank you again for the restraint and grace of RG's response.
Well done. My thoughts exactly!
I'm so glad you posted this response. My first concern was his explanation about the inappropriate touching. I didn't feel like he owned it at all and I'm thankful you all addressed that issue. We are not a Gothard family, nor were we raised that way. But we were influenced by Vision Forum and we have personally seen how this line of thinking divides Christians and causes so many problems. Personally, I'm tired of hearing apologies like "I'm sorry you perceived it that way", or "I'm sorry you were collateral damage but I was doing what I thought was right". When we are rebuked, we need to humble ourselves and own what we did wrong. We need to be wary of Christians in authority who master the art of making excuses sound spiritual and lofty.
Yes!
This was a thoughtful and excellently written response. Thank you! Thank you! I thank the Lord for the RG team members who speak truth and advocate for the many, MANY people impacted/confused by this letter written by Bill Gothard.
Thank you Recovering Grace for your post and website. Left out of Bill's Gothard so-called "confession" statement is the fact that he personally overlooked and turned the other way when presented with stories of molestation from others in the ATI or IBLP. As well documented in your stories about incest, sexual abuse and molestation in the IBLP/ATI camp (“When Sexual Harassment at IBLP is Acknowledged”), there is the sickening truth that Bill Gothard failed to act upon gross sexual abuse. This is criminal, sickening and just as wrong as the harm he has personally done! For years, Bill Gothard has allowed sexual abuse to go on among many families, has put the blame in the victims, and allowed the perpetrators (such as his brother and many others) to stay away from the arms of the Law. In order for the proper healing of the many young women and men who were molested, it would be absolutely necessary for Bill Gothard to acknowledge is gross failure to act, protect and shelter those who were under his leadership.
Lastly, I am personally greatly disheartened that many well-known families and speakers like the Duggars, the Bates, David Gibbs Jr., Tom Harmon and others are is going to be speaking at the Regional Seminars this year. Their continual involvement in this ministry is beyond comprehension. It is likewise shocking that thousands of families will still “flock” to Big Sandy, Nashville, or Sacramento in blind allegiance to their leader or the organization. Wake up people and flee …..
Agreed 100% Eric. I often wonder if BG has ever read & understood Romans 13, or if he did, felt he was above it. The clear hiding of criminals from prosecution is extremely egregious on BG's part and he needs to add it to his list of confession.
Bravo to Recovering Grace for their work on this site.
Eric,
Your words are well spoken. I agree.
Eric, Amen to what you said. The Duggars and Bates are not responsible for his moral failures, but they are almost single handedly responsible for the propogation of his teachings in mainstream culture over the last few years. And they are responsible for their endorsement of a false teacher.
I doubt you will hear anything from them, especially the Duggars, because it would involve self examination on their part and possibly an acknowledgement that their entire philosophy of having as many kids as possible and raising them up with legalistic standards taught by ATI.
I think they are fine families although their philosophies are based on error, IMHO. But what people must realize is that the moral failures of men like Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard is only the fruit of bad doctrine.
Gothard won't confess/admit to those things, because even without molestation/harassment charges, he would probably go to jail for not reporting abuse.
In my role As a MANDATORY reporter,as is any educator/leader/counselor; Bill is guilty (legally and morally) of protecting the abusers and sacrificing the abused. By failing to report any of the who went to him with stories of abuse yet he NEVER once pick up the phone to report the abuse to intervene, he declares that he is NOT willing to protect the abused. This alone should land him in jail. But when you look at how he taught about responding to abuse by blaming the victim, why should I have expected anything different.
Excellent response, both in clarity and spirit! Agreed!
["Gothard also declares that he has “never kissed a girl.” This statement is a clear denial of Charlotte’s story."]
I am curious what he said to the RG contacts he spoke with regarding "Charlotte". He has stated to others that her account is a fabrication. So, yes he would deny kissing her and the other things she alleged. I guess I am bothered that this is not being acknowledged in the statement above. "Charlotte" added the element of nastiness to something that would otherwise be varying degrees of "unpleasant". If it is a lie it is warping this entire discussion.
BG "added the element of nastiness" by his illegal, grossly inappropriate actions with Charlotte and the many other girls and young women. Alfred, it is your lack of belief in Charlotte's story and so many others that is warping the discussion. You should also prayerfully read the profound post of J.B. and understand that BG and his man made non optional principles are rotten to the core.
For the sake of discussion, let's say Charlotte's story is false. Does it really change anything? BG has --> admitted unwelcome <-- ...
"Touching, patting, punching, stroking, squeezing, tickling, or brushing against a person
"A neck/shoulder massage"
(http://burro.cwru.edu/women/harassment/examples.html)
"Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment ["bringing selected young people to serve at the Headquarters and causing others to feel rejected and offended by my favoritism"] or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted) ["People who didn’t 'measure up' were cut off and those who were not seen as adding value to the ministry were treated as though they were expendable"]."
(http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm)
(I'm not saying that the quotes above were from sexual harassment situations. Instead, I want to point out that they indicate BG has operated this way - why would he treat the young women he objectified and used any differently?)
Please drop the "Charlotte's story is fabricated" straw man argument. If her story is true, BG could be held liable for sexual harassment. If her story is false, BG could be held liable for sexual harassment.
Yes, Yes, Yes, Alex S. Thank you!!!
"Please drop the "Charlotte's story is fabricated" straw man argument. If her story is true, BG could be held liable for sexual harassment. If her story is false, BG could be held liable for sexual harassment."
Excactly.
And SHOULD be held accountable by some accountability structure EVEN IF those offenses are not legally prosecutable. The standard of the church should be higher, particularly for leaders, than: what you did was a prosecutable offense. We can do better than mumble.."well, our leaders have never done any time in the pen..."
YES!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
I hope I can help clear up some of the semantics of the terminology that needs to be correctly applied here. Sexual harassment is the behavior described by many of the girls here who were in the employ of B.G. as secretaries or assistants - the unwanted touching of hair, feet, small of back, etc. The behavior that was described by Charlotte would actually be sexual assault, in my state it would be considered 3rd or 4th degree sexual assault. The harassment charges fall more under EEOC regulations / civil courts, while the assault would be charged criminally. As I have noted in another thread here, Charlotte's story, as told, would merit a Grand Jury indictment of B.G., where he would be forced to go to trial and defend himself before a judge and/or jury.
Because of my background I think it is important for folks to know the distinction because the terminology matters.
Regardless of the "legalese" of these multiple stories, it is abundantly clear that Gothard had two sets of rules- those he held others to by almost ruthless strictness, and those he chose to live by on his own. Sad stuff, all the way around, and thus my name here.
Sad, this is helpful, thank you.
Can you comment on the Statute of Limitations for each offense?
I do not have experience with the laws of the State of Illinois (for which I am grateful) so I can not speak as to the limitations that may exist for these cases. In my State, Charlotte could go forward with her case even these many years later. If you look at some of the other threads regarding the stories of abuse, there are some suggestions as to time limits and what can be pursued, posted by other people than myself.
Most sexual harassment cases need to be pursued fairly quickly in the Courts, here we have a 1 year limit on misdemeanor offenses and a 3 year limit on civil suits seeking damages. Again, each State may be different.
As someone who is on the "Enforcement" side of the legal system, I strongly encourage every victim in any case of harassment and / or assault to pursue their legal rights to the fullest extent of the law. In the case of the perpetrators hiding under the guise of faith & religion, it is doubly important for the victims to purse a legal case as we need to be committed to purging evil from among our own midst. The suppression of victims by the teachings & practices of IBLP are extremely offensive to my own sense of justice. I can scarce imagine how many people there are like Joy who shared her story of being assaulted as a 24 year old and not getting to have her day in court against her assailant, because she was told just move on from the event.
If you are a victim of sexual harassment or assault, no matter where you are and who the suspect is, please reach out to us in the L.E. community. We are here to help and find deep satisfaction in putting away the wolves in our midst.
There ought to be exceptions for cases such as these, i.e. personality cults where one or more individuals is revered in such a way. Not just for religious groups, (although I imagine this sort of thing is prevalent in many different religions, but for other organizations, charities, non-profits, etc..)
Alfred, help me understand why this is so important to you. Sin is sin. Gothard has confessed to inappropriate touching...that is sin, and an automatic DQ for a Christian leader.
Why does it matter so much to you if the allegations of kissing are not true? His denials lack credibility just on the strength of what he admitted to AFTER ALL THIS TIME!!!!
I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from, but it is really escaping me...????
I've been trying to figure this out too... it sounds like the playground bully's little brother, defending him the principle's office. "Hey, that's not true, he only blackened one eye!" "No, wait, Joey wasn't covered in mud from being pushed down, he only had mud on his face and his shirt, not on his whole body." Sycophant? Blind follower? "Hey, Bill! I never doubted you! Remember me? I've always been on your side!" "I've always looked up to you, and always will! You can count on me, even when others betray you..."
To what end? There is only one Savior.
@Alfred
While I don't think you comments need a response because I know you are squarely in Bills corner. That's ok. What I wish you would see is that by your persistence you move those on the fence further and further away from Bill. You are actually much more damage to Bill, IBLP and their perception among those seeking the truth than you realize.......never mind.
I don't understand that, Ryan. From a man who can't see why people would follow and trust Jesus? Or do I misunderstand your comments about where you are coming from?
Ultimately the coming "Day" will declare all. David sinned far worse than Bill is alleged to have sinned . . . he lost much, but God put Him back. It made a lot of people mad, people who could not see why someone who would do what everyone knew he did could enjoy such grace. Some never got over it . . . and joined a mass rebellion against him. Cursing, reviling . . . and David took it. When they had their day, David had his. And they all died, with God's approval.
Some things are just not fair, from where we sit. At the very least, we know God doesn't think like we do, judge the way we do. I want to be on God's side, wherever He is.
I guess it's quite possible to formulate some kind of leadership handbook from primarily the OT, what was allowed and what wasn't. You can take all (or most) of your leadership cues from Moses, Abraham, David, Jacob...hey , it's in the bible, isn't it ???
Or you can lean on Jesus and the life of the early church to interpret the rest, start with Jesus and work your way backwards.... in order to go forwards.
Most questionable theologies do not know how to operate , biblically, this way: they start with an idea, then cut and paste some scripture, ANY scripture, to validate it. I do not recommend that.
Of course David actually acknowledged his sin, repented with tears and anguish with no mealy mouthed nonsense about, 'I'm sorry my actions offended someone', and did not commit the sin again.. Something notably missing from Gothard given his 40 year stretch.
Alfred,
The best thing you can do to be "on God's side" is to do exactly what RG has been doing: expose sin where it is hidden and provide a place where the used and the abused can find shelter. I'm sorry, but scrutinizing and marginalizing their experiences, placing yours above theirs, and defending a manipulator is not in any way "being on God's side."
Since David is mentioned so often as an example of a sinful leader who was allowed to remain in power, it's worthwhile looking at some less discussed aspects of that story.
1. David was fiercely confronted for his sin. (And Nathan said to David, “Thou art the man) and called out as one who preyed upon the weak. Yay, RG!
2. David's downfall was public. (For thou did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.’”) Again, yay RG!
3. David repented. No excuses, no justification, no convoluted explanations, no half-apologies. (And David said unto Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”) Haven't seen this from BG yet, he's still parsing his behavior very carefully.
4. David's consequences continued well beyond even his repentance. "Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house". From all that we know of the story, David accepted this and didn't try to escape it.
And of course, as has been pointed out here SO many times already, a New Testament teacher is held to the even *higher* standard for conduct as delineated in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
-Use of the KJV to avoid version controversies. :-)
Excellent points, P.L. Thanks, RG for continuing to show a grace-filled response to BG and all impacted by him.
AND David wrote Psalm 51 after repenting! Which bears little similarity to Gothard's "I have never touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent."
David also endured having his wives slept with in daylight as was prophesied would happen to him.
He also had to flee and lost power. David also fasted and wept and begged G od to not take the life of his first child he had with Bathsheeba.
When the predominant defensive argument is diminished down to " But King David did far worse..." I would say that the defense of BG has been depleted of any good positions.
Just to clarify what you intend to communicate, you are compiling a creative retelling of David's story to suggest that those at RG who have confronted Gothard's sins will be put to death while God approves, is that correct? If not, how do you intend that to be read?
By "creative retelling" I mean to say, for example, that your words "It made a lot of people mad, people who could not see why someone who would do what everyone knew he did could enjoy such grace" sound like a not-so-subtle dig at RG rather than a quoting of Scripture, but I am very open to being corrected with chapter and verse.
I am not the beginning and end of wisdom, so, hey, my opinions sit up there next to others. Others committed far less sins and fell and never rose again. What was it about David that made him special? NOT sinless perfection . . . not even lack of severe moral failures.
What made him special was that he was a "man after God's heart". There are various ways to interpret that . . . chasing after God's heart is the one I like the best. That is one thing I have always appreciated about Bill. He has always been chasing God's heart. The reason he attracted so much attention, bowed the hearts of so many was NOT legalism or moralism or having all the answers . . . it was that he took God literally, and took Him seriously . . . to a fault. If God said it, it needed to be studied and considered . . . and implemented. Many believers get the feeling that modern day Christianity is more concerned for what makes us feel good and secure and happy rather than what God wants.
"Soldiers", God calls us . . . tells us that we must not be entangled in the affairs of this life, but dedicated to pleasing the One that called us to that role. So ATI became a bit of a "boot camp" for soldiers, complete with a uniform and commitments and "enduring hardness", as Paul says. Too much, excess . . . out of balance? Probably . . . but it was too much zeal in a good thing. I respect and love him for that. Somehow I think that he will survive and Lord will pick him back up and bless him.
As far as analogies . . . I always look for precedents for situations that I see or experience, things that give me a sense of what the Lord might be thinking and planning. I see lots of examples of people standing in judgement on others, wishing them to be destroyed and judged, reviling them, dragging their name through the mud. I don't often see a good conclusion to that, even when they are right. God seems to get offended when unholy sinners stand in judgment on other unholy sinners.
Things I hear here hurt me, deeply. Bill is a man I love, that is responsible for a great deal of singular blessing in my life, and of my family. Many others echo this, folks that hardly know how to react to all of this, who stay far from this site . . . or who peek in and then discuss things among themselves that are said. I know there is justice in here . . . but I also know that God is bigger than all of this, and in the end He will sort out who pleases Him, and who should be judged. We are all a sorry lot when it comes down to it.
"God seems to get offended when unholy sinners stand in judgment on other unholy sinners."
Yes. And God says that for a person who causes a little one to stumble, it would be better for a millstone to be tied around his neck and for him to be cast into the sea.
I hear your affection for Bill, and know he has (it appears) filled a father type role in your life. We all know there are many wonderful people in ATI. Unfortunately, the many who have been hurt by him are also speaking out. The victims of Bill's affections have been damaged, some to the point of needing intensive counseling. It's a very sorry situation, but I am glad they are finally being given a voice. Like all of us, Bill needs to be held accountable for what he has done, and it doesn't appear that he is yet willing to be held accountable, in that he denied that the physical affection he showed to select young women was of a sexual nature.
I wrote: "Unfortunately, the many who have been hurt by him are also speaking out."
I *meant*, "Unfortunately, on account of your regard and feeling for the man, the many who have been hurt by [Bill] are also speaking out."
Personally, I am very grateful that these precious victims have a safe place to not only share their experiences, but to give warning, and hopefully, bring Bill to repentance.
@Alfred- here is a point at which you and I see the Bible very differently. It could look like a splitting of hairs but I think it is extremely important and why I see in Gothardism legalism/moralism.
We you ask and answer your question: What made him special was that he was a "man after God's heart".
Were I to ask and answer the same questions : "he's is the Lord's Anointed". The one through whom God purposed and then promised to establish his eternal Kingdom. The reason he's restored is because every person through whom God purposed to bring about his kingdom fail miserably until the True Son of David is born. David is certainly one whom in distinction from Saul seeks Yahweh. But David is not a special saint among the saints. He is appointed as a saint to a special office that has it's specialness in that it is the King that in the OT best pictures the kingship of Jesus. And when we say best pictures; it's not very pretty in tons of places. But as a shadowy representative of what God will fully and finally do in Jesus it suffices.
The moment one sets David up as an example of what it means to be a "good Christian" or even dissect what it means to be "after God's own heart", one must deal with how corrupt David's heart was. We get to watch it as he takes the wife of Uriah the Hittite. It's certainly not all bad, but it's all damnable but for grace.
What makes David an encouragement for me is that a better King came and was fully after God's own heart. David removed from his role in redemptive history leads to legalism/moralism. Here @greg r's encouragement to read the OT/Bible through the lens of Jesus not Jesus through the lens of OT/BIble. It's a shorthand way of talking about a Christ-centered or Christo-telic hermeneutic.
In short, when I read about David I'm moved by God's grace not David's morality or example.
I think the reason Gothard gained such a following is that he promised if you followed his principles life would go well for you and people believed it. There are many sociological/spiritual reasons for this. For brevity I'll simply call it a thoroughgoing Modernistic view of the Bible, God, the Church, and faith. It certainly had some Scriptural truths mixed in but was not Scriptural.
I get the grief of watching a man you love "taken down" and what seems to you unfairly. I do not relish in that, nor do I relish in the grief that BG and his other followers may be experiencing. I really hold no personal animosity toward him and have no problem forgiving him nor my parents for their role in exposing me to his teachings. I for one, desire real repentance for him, and I would wish his teachings to go away. I believe they're that corrupt. I understand that you don't, but I don't say that about much teaching out there.
This is so well said, Alfred. My thoughts exactly.
An encouraging word! Thank you, Sherry.
LynnCD: Nobody has the right to harm others and get away with it. Bill has faults, and he must now answer for them. I have been grieved at how hard he has been with some, how sometimes arbitrary in judgement, even how ungrateful for the sacrifices of others on his behalf, including my family.
But ... not every point of blame is righteously applied . . . sometimes we suffer for our own mistakes, and then blame the authorities in our life.
"When a man's folly brings his way to ruin,
his heart rages against the Lord." (Prov. 19:3)
That is where taking responsibility for myself looms large, living so as never to have to blame anyone else for my problems.
And . . . every time I have thought to get grumpy I have pondered two things:
1) What I have accomplished for Jesus so far, how many souls I have won for Him, how many believers encouraged, marriages saved . . . comparing my footprint of real fruit for the Savior to his. We are not even on the same planet. The "watchers" are always quick to judge the "players".
2) How well would I do if I were faced with the pressures and challenges he deals with every day, running a much scrutinized, international ministry with lots of people with super high expectations and a very uncertain stream of income.
Then I shut up and go back to work what God wants me to work, and let Bill do what God has called and enabled him to do and let the Lord pick the time and place to straighten out the bad parts.
Shane: If I were to try to summarize your comments it would be that David is "special" by God's decree, and therefore the normal "rules" don't apply to him? Perhaps . . . but . . . we all get "special" when we get saved. God loves His children and goes to bat for them. And I believe we get more "special" the more we love Him and confess Jesus to others:
"Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God" (Luke 12:8)
Angels are sent to deliver this one and that one out of trouble. God bends the rules, pulls punches to help out His children who keep promoting Him and His agenda before others, even while they may fail Him miserably. And if Bill is anything, he is a tireless cheerleader for Jesus, has presented the Gospel in a personal way to millions of people.
"God bends the rules"
I can't believe I just heard someone from ATI say this...
@Alfred-" And I believe we get more "special" the more we love Him and confess Jesus to others:"
I don't.
I believe that when the Spirit unites us to Christ by faith we get Jesus and all the benefits of his salvation. Eph. 1.3-14 is one sentence. The main verb is "has blessed". It is the perfect tense meaning that it is a past completed action with ongoing results. Everything that follows is a list of the blessing we already have NOW because we are united to Jesus by faith. Jesus makes us special.
THIS is why I reject Gothardism. I don't care about being special. I quit taking my spiritual pulse according to Gothard's principles. I got off the treadmill. I care that because of Jesus I already have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm. Pursuit of being "special" as a Christian actually stunts ones growth. This is Paul's point in Galatians when he says it was for freedom that Christ set you free. All the measuring and posturing and comparing and spiritual temperature taking is death to spiritual growth.
I don't agree with your summary of my words. A better summary is that David (the Bible) is first and foremost about Jesus not you or me. David is special because he fulfills a role that you or I never will. He is this shadow king to the true king.
"he is a tireless cheerleader for Jesus, has presented the Gospel in a personal way to millions of people."
I don't remember him talking very much about Jesus at all in his seminars. I could be wrong. What I remember him talking and talking and talking about was what I was supposed to do to be better.
I don't remember him teaching the import of justification, propitiation, expiation, substitutionary atonement, adoption, redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, the resurrection, sanctification, etc through Jesus. Not saying he never referenced some of these concepts, but in his seminars who Jesus is and what Jesus accomplished for me was not what he taught.
As I said I'm thankful to be off that treadmill.
@Shane: and I repeat my plaintiff wail, again, when is your book coming out ?? you wrote
Pursuit of being "special" as a Christian actually stunts ones growth. This is Paul's point in Galatians when he says it was for freedom that Christ set you free. All the measuring and posturing and comparing and spiritual temperature taking is death to spiritual growth.
Yes, sir. well said
Ditto, Shane. I appreciate your well-thought-out, pastoral comments here.
@Alfred:
..and a very uncertain stream of income....
OK, this one is kind of funny...heard the same line from Benny Hinn.... threw up a little then.... threw up a little just now..
technically, you are correct: but when you are sitting on 75million plus in assets... oh, poor, poor , bill... pass the hat, ya'll
@P.L.
"God bends the rules"
I can't believe I just heard someone from ATI say this...
I agree!!! Wow!!!!! That last paragraph of Alfred's is a doosie.
"And I believe we get more "special" the more we love Him and confess Jesus to others:"
Alfred,
Right there. Right there, you said it all. You summarized Gothardism in that one line and from that one line can be see what is so deeply troubling about his way. You are saved. Your works will not make God love you more. They will not make you "more special" to God. They will not make you "more special" than other people.
In Gothardism, you have people believing that they are becoming "more special" by following Bill Gothard's rules. Even if there was such an equation, in which Gothard's rules = God's rules, this idea would still be works. You can't make yourself "more special" to God by your works. And, in reality, Bill's rules are not God's but those of Bill. The concept becomes even more absurd that we would follow the rules of a man, and believe that this makes us " more special" to God.
@Kevin/shane: reg. the 'getting more special..." good catch; this is legalism in a nutshell
"And I believe we get more 'special' the more we love Him and confess Jesus to others."
Kevin just took the words out of my mouth - this is the heart of Gothardism, Alfred. The notion that we must do more and more to earn more of God's favor...so we are empowered to do His will more to earn His favor...so we are empowered to do His will more. It's an endless treadmill of works that breeds a desire to find what will set us above everyone else or make us feel secure. As I mentioned in my earlier comment, the more we make the Christian walk about more than simply knowing Christ (from which our obedience should naturally result), we've let the enemy gain far more influence in our lives than we thought possible.
An excerpt from the parable in "The Pressure's Off" by Larry Crabb that I thought would be applicable here:
“You’re looking for a method to make life work. That’s the Old Way.” The Voice was filled with patience, like the voice of a grandfather teaching his grandchild as the two walk together. “Whatever method you choose becomes your master. You’ve served many masters in your lifetime, but your goal has remained constant. You want nothing more than the Better Life that your experience has taught you is desirable. That goal is your idol. It must be abandoned.”
“I-I see your point,” the woman replied, though she saw nothing. “Yes, I do believe you’re right. Quite right, actually. Your point is revolutionary. I need to find a spiritual way. My goal must be God and my method obedience. And prayer. Yes, I must do what’s right and trust God with the outcome. You’re saying exactly what I’ve just heard from a wise, elderly woman in my church. She was most interesting.”
“She spoke truth to you. But you didn’t hear. That’s why I’ve come.”
“Well, I think I did hear what she had to say.” The woman was more indignant than unnerved. “But thank you for coming to reinforce her message. Let’s see. Yes, I remember. She told me I was working hard to understand and live by the Principle of Sequence. You know, the idea that B follows A so that if I want B, I must discover the A that will bring it about. She was, of course, quite right. I want to know what I must do that will change my life for the better and keep me out of more trouble in the future. She said, too, that I must give up trying so hard and learn instead to pray. Again she was quite right. Of course I must still obey, but since my talk with her, I’ve been praying far more.”
“Why do you pray?” A chill suddenly swept into the room. The woman braced herself against it.
“Why do I pray? What a strange question. I’m certain you know the teachings: Ask and you shall receive; cling to God and don’t let go till He blesses you; pester Him, if you must, to get a response; settle for no less than every blessing He has reserved for you.”
“That’s the Old Way.”
The woman frowned. Did the Voice not know the Teachings of the Sacred Book? Then a frightening thought crossed her mind. Perhaps the person behind the Voice knew the Teachings but didn’t believe them. Was she speaking with a demon? A false prophet? Was a serpent in the room with her?
“How can that be?” she retorted with strengthened indignation. “My life is difficult. It’s right to pray. Why, I run to God with everything. Surely you aren’t telling me that prayer is the Old Way.”
“Prayer is not the Old Way. Your prayer is.”
The woman began to cry. “Why do you mock me? I’m desperate. I thought you were going to show me a new way to live. All you’ve done so far is to make me lose what little hope I had left.”
“Your desires are too weak. Small affections create idols, unworthy gods to whom you sacrifice your life. Your prayers are idol worship. You’ve been bound to your desire for the Better Life, which you define by your experience of pleasure and pain. I’ve come to show you the New Way that leads to the Better Hope.”
The woman’s tears intensified into sobs. The sobs turned into wailing. “I only want to do what’s right so I can enjoy God’s blessings. Is that so wrong? Why won’t you tell me what I must do?” If this Voice was from God, she was sure her wailing would cause Him to take pity on her and tell her what to do.
The Voice said, “You want to know what’s effective. You aren’t asking to know what is holy.”
@Shane/Alfred: if your dog is not too bright, or improperly trained, you say "LOOK SPOT" and point... and the dog stares...at your finger.
that is us looking @David, Moses, Abraham, etc.. instead of at Jesus...
Alfred, Bill should award you Magna Cum Laude. I think you grasp his teachings to a T.
Wow! The nerve was hit.
Well, I just have to disagree. My Bible tells me that those that "confess" get "confessed". That is not in heaven because the target focuses on the angels. THEIR job is to protect people. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)
There are things we can do to attract the devil's attention . . . "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" (Acts 19:15) That ain't all bad . . . There are also things we do to attract the Lord's attention, in a positive way. Besides the one cited - angels being focused on some more than others - some examples:
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." (Matt. 5:7) <-- I want mercy, and I will get more if I show mercy to others. From whom? From the Lord, of course.
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12) <-- I ant a crown! Some get this one, some don't
"Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection" (Heb. 11:35) <-- Obtain a better resurrection?! I want that.
"But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." (Luke 14:13-14) <-- What I do with respect to poor people will turn into extra blessing when I am raised? I want that.
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 7:14-15) <-- I want the Lord to forgive my trespasses. I know He has already handled the penalty for sin with respect to heaven, so this must be something else. And it is. God "pulling punches" in this life that should come my way.
The Bible - and NT specifically - shouts that things I want are affected by what I do. Not every Christian will come out of the "Judgement Seat of Christ" looking the same, right?
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)
That last verse is pretty clear, right? Good OR bad . . . according as we have done.
So, yes, some believers get more positive attention from the Lord in this life than others. Some He is a lot more gracious and merciful with than others. That fact is obvious. If you want to believe it is entirely random, fine. But you have to run over Scriptures such as those posted to do so.
Oh, @Alfred, with "God bends the rules" and "we get more special" you didn't hit a nerve, you jumped the shark.
This is such wacky theology that I can only shake my head in disbelief.
@Alfred- I share your desire to treat the Bible for what it says. Where we disagree is the theological framework through which you and I understand those passages. Your statements about being "special" and wanting crowns are so far from my thinking when I read the Bible.
I will not restate my basic hermeneutical premise. It's stated above. But the passages you cite are certainly in the Bible, but they are not all that's said about the matter. Just like circumcision discussion. The issue is how one holds those passages.
I'd say to pursue obedience for some crown is to lose the crown. Christians should pursue Jesus to get Jesus, God to get God. Whether I get anything but the grace already given is inconsequential in my thinking. It's inconsequential to my obedience as well. Paul says in the 2 Cor passage and the scriptures are clear that we can all do many many good things but if they are not born from a heart of love for God for God's sake then they are nothing. The only thing that gives that kind of heart is grace. The moment you obey for the sake of what you get your obedience has you as it's object (the elder brother) and it is dishonoring to God.
@Alfred, what is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Anonymous from somewhere,
It's interest that you should ask Alfred about Eph 2:8. This is the exact verse that the elders who wrote " A Call for Discernment" used to demonstrate how false Gothard's core teachings are. Substituting Gothard's definition of Grace and Faith into Eph 2:8, this is how it looks:
Eph 2:8
"For by 'the desire and power to do God's will' you have been saved through 'visualizing what God intends to do'.
Gothards defintions:
Grace: The desire and power to do God's will
Faith: Visualizing what God intends to do.
It is a powerful demonstration that Gothard is teaching a different Gospel than that found in Scripture. When the essentials are wrong, Grace, Faith, one has to ask if it is Christianity, or something else.
___Angels are sent to deliver this one and that one out of trouble. God bends the rules, pulls punches to help out His children who keep promoting Him and His agenda before others, even while they may fail Him miserably.___
Please show me one place where this is stated in the Bible, Alfred.
Alfred you said, "So, yes, some believers get more positive attention from the Lord in this life than others. Some He is a lot more gracious and merciful with than others. That fact is obvious". Are you saying that some little children who are diagnosed with a terrible cancer or other horrible disease are not eligible for grace and mercy from the Lord? What would you have to say about this if your youngest child ended up with something like this? I have read lots of things on such places as Care Pages. Some of these kids love the Lord and have a lot of discernment about Him. I am thinking of two in particular that I followed until the Lord called them home. So are you now going to say that they received grace and mercy from the Lord because he took them home? But what about the parents? I guess they just did not get any positive attention from Him. I hope you never have to see this in your own life. This kind of comment is not in any of the Scriptures you quoted. I don't see it at all. You are so deceived by a man whose initials are BG.
Oh, wait, Alfred. I just figured it out. According to IBLP teachings you have to ask what wicked thing did I do that my child got this horrible cancer, with it's pain, suffering, death maybe.
Dreamer["___Angels are sent to deliver this one and that one out of trouble. God bends the rules, pulls punches to help out His children who keep promoting Him and His agenda before others, even while they may fail Him miserably.___
Please show me one place where this is stated in the Bible, Alfred."]
I did, but I will do it again:
Hebrews 1:14 "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"
Coupled with:
Psalms 91:11-12
"For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."
Yes, know that second one was aimed at Jesus specifically . . . But the first one at us.
Jesus said:
Luke 12:8. "Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:"
WHY the angels? They don't judge. I am guessing to give more focus on that ministering and protecting job.
anonymous from somewhere ["@Alfred, what is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.""]
This almost hilarious. But I shall pull myself together. The good brethren that assembled that "Call to Discernment" were . . . Reformed, Calvinists. Let me tell you what they see in these verses:
"For by God's irresistible power you have been saved, thorough the gift of God opening your eyes . . . "
Faith is a gift to the Calvinist . . . You can't believe on your own, I.e. Choose to believe. Rather God reveals Himself to the Elect . . . Opens their eyes to see that God sent Jesus to save them. Which is what Bill means by "visualizing God's will" . . . Seeing what God is planning to do . . . And acting as though it is true.
And amazingly the Calvinist clearly understands that Grace is raw "irresistible" Power from God, power that makes us want things we never would have wanted on our own . . . And then doing them with strength we never would have had otherwise. "Desire and Power to do God's will"
The thing that amused me most with that venerable, ancient piece was that when it came right down to it, his biggest objection to Bill was believing that babies, even in the womb, have active spiritual lives. This from John the Baptist "leaping for joy" in Elisabeth's womb when Mary called out. The amusing part is that Calvinists are the ONLY group that I know that believe babies can be saved in the womb. I know this is true because I heard Harold Camping say so over and over on the air . . . And once told a caller that he had been saved there, I.e. Always found himself trusting Christ when he came old enough to understand. So . . Reformed people, if ANYONE, believe that babies in the womb have real spiritual lives.
The difference between me and the Reformed is the "irresistible" part. Grace is indeed power . . . Like a wind blowing. It remains for us to hoist the sail and tack in the best direction. No wind = no movement, sails or no sails . . . Grace remains a gift that cannot be earned, but can be refused.
Eva: what do you make of these verses:
Luke 6:20-25
"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said,
Blessed be ye poor:for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now:for ye shall be filled.
Blessed are ye that weep now:for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy:for, behold, your reward is great in heaven:for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.
Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep."
Or this
James 2:5 "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"
That almost sounds like the ones with the trouble in this life have a huge advantage over those of us who are relatively "rich".
I guess I won't respond to any more of Alfred's comments (not a promise though but my thought tonight). If you ask him a question, he never answers,... Just gives a Bill Gothard type response which says and means nothing or quotes a Scripture that is not at all about the same thing. Good verses but not on the subject at all. I am sorry he can't see the truth (or should I say the falsity) of Gothardism. The truth is that it's false.
Having had to attend several IBYC seminars in the 1980's, I never heard or saw anything that made me think Bill Gothard was a "tireless cheerleader for Jesus". What I got from the above mentioned seminars was a man twisting scriptures to affirm his legalistic view of Christianity to stay under the "umbrella" to avoid pitfalls in life.
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45 (KJV)
Alfred said: "And if Bill is anything, he is a tireless cheerleader for Jesus, has presented the Gospel in a personal way to millions of people."
"Many believers get the feeling that modern day Christianity is more concerned for what makes us feel good and secure and happy rather than what God wants. "
I'm sorry Alfred, but you have inadvertently made yourself proof of this. Is it far fetched for me to suggest that the reason for your continued defense of Bill Gothard, who has consistently abused his fellow humans and created and taught a perverted form of Christianity, is because you need to feel good and secure and happy with your decision to follow him?
I sincerely hope God does not want this man to be left alone, so he can continue in his abuse and heresy.
There is a huge difference between David and BG, Alfred. One difference is that David repented with tears and anguish. And you are right, he was a "man after God's own heart." But, nothing about BG has shown that he is chasing God's heart. He was confronted with his behaviour and his brother's back in the '80's but did he repent back then? No! He didn't. Now, he has been confronted again and he is still giving empty apologies, justifying what he has done, shaming those he damaged all the while saying what he did was wrong. At best he is the worst of hypocrites. There is no possible way for someone in their right mind to say BG is "chasing God's heart." If he was, he would have repented and put a stop to this behaviour back in the '80's.
Alfred,
Bill outright admitted to touching young girls in sexually inappropriate ways. So no, it is not alleged, Bill's confirmed it.
And given how Bill's broken his word in the past, and covered things up, I'm not really inclined to trust his word at the moment when he says he never kissed or fondled a girl.
And too, Bill's sin, to me, is worse than David's. David repented of his, and Bill has a regular habit of trying to cover his posterior, while not repenting of anything substantial. As of this statement, I'm not sure if he's honestly sincere, or just making another emotional statement to make people feel sorry for him.
I would concur with Ryan Sapp's comment, that by making many of the statements and comments you do, you have a tendency to push people further away from Gothard. Personally speaking as one who tries to keep an open mind and reconsider things, I haven't found in your comments that I've read, anything that would persuade me I'm wrong about Bill.
@Alfred
"I don't understand that, Ryan. From a man who can't see why people would follow and trust Jesus? Or do I misunderstand your comments about where you are coming from?"
I am not going to hijack this thread. I only want to clarify I have never questioned why people follow or trust Jesus. I respect that belief and I know how valuable, real and personal it is for so many. I don't, that's ok.
I understand. I respect your respect. But it remains that you can't understand - really - why I follow and love Jesus, or you would too.
People always do what they consider to be the best. The world I live in has a heaven and a hell and real people who will populate both forever. You and I will be there before we know it. It contains a God who watches every action, writes down every word for later accountability, ponders every motive, both loves and gets very, very angry. In a world like that you are motivated to do things that others, whose world consists primarily of all of the passing pleasures they can get since they expect to disappear forever when they die, can't relate to.
So . . . I would not expect you to understand my love for Bill any more than you can understand - really understand - my love for Jesus. It is FAR more than a response to friendly persons. It is a response to the One Who has saved me from eternal torture by enduring unspeakable torture in my place . . . and His servant who, although far from perfect, has labored tirelessly to help me and my family live successfully for that Forever that will soon be upon us all.
Whoa! Did you seriously just equate loving Bill Gothard to loving Jesus??
I'd welcome the chance to respond but I don't feel this is the appropriate thread.
Alfred, I don't think your dismissal of Ryan's ability to understand your love for Jesus or your love for Bill to be respectful of him as a PERSON. One who has people that I'm sure he dearly loves and would go to the mat for. One who, though he says he's at best agnostic about God, shows a great respect for the Christ-followers on this discussion and engages them in their beliefs with understanding.
What you've appeared to have done is set yourself in a privileged position that cannot be engaged by someone who doesn't share your beliefs and really your experience. No one here can overcome the bar of your personal experience with Jesus or Bill, but we do share a bunch in common that allows for fruitful discussion.
Thank you Shane. It's like Alfred says he is a Red Sox fan and they are the best team. You Ryan are a Mariners fan and have no idea what it's like to be a fan or a "real" team. He forgets I grew up in Boston in this analogy. My family still lives in Boston and I love them. (End of analogy)
Shane, when are you going to find me on Facebook. I want to be your friend.
I'll take Shane's serious Christianity any day.
Alfred--please consider the possibility that you can follow Jesus without following BG. You might find it liberating.
Who is it that says David's sin was worse than BG's "alleged" sin? Is that Alfred's opinion? Or God's? "For the wages of sin is death...." Doesn't specify which one(s)...."BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Thankfully all of us can praise God for that. Wages are something that we earn. Gifts are not earned. I think someone should tell BIll that he doesn't have to earn anything even though he taught that.
I do think Alfred has a valid point. It says in James 5:20, "Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Bill's faults are many, but he HAS presented the gospel message countless times, and won probably many to Christ. (That's quite a few more than the one and only person *I* have won to Christ myself.) I'm not saying God is inclined to overlook Bill's shortcomings because of that, but I do believe that God used Bill-- even if it was "in spite of himself"-- and that God is at least pleased that quite a few souls will apparently be in Heaven because of Bill.
On the other hand, it also says in James 3:1, " You know that we who teach will be judged more strictly," indicating that those who presume to teach others will be held to a higher standard before God, since so many look to them. (And in this, Bill seems to have come up short.) Always two sides to a coin.
Alfred, I said it before... Although I do not see eye-to-eye with you on some things, I always appreciate your well-thought-out comments and your heart behind them. You are certainly a glutton for punishment... But then, I've always loved an underdog. :-)
@Holly- what it appears you've actually said is that Alfred has half a point.
One major difference between David and BG is that David was chosen by God, Himself. BG, in my opinion, is self-appointed. If anyone, even angels, proclaim a different gospel, don't listen to them. The Bible says those who preach a different gospel, let them be accursed.
I strongly disagree with those who excuse evil doers in the ministry, in the name of forgiveness. These evil doers in ministry slander the name of our precious savior, Jesus Christ. They, of course can be forgiven, if they are sincere, but there is no way they should ever, ever, ever be allowed to be leaders in the church.
Denise,
You said: "One major difference between David and BG is that David was chosen by God, Himself. BG, in my opinion, is self-appointed. If anyone, even angels, proclaim a different gospel, don't listen to them. The Bible says those who preach a different gospel, let them be accursed."
Good point. The comparison that we hear from Gothard defenders, more than any other is King David. "Look at the sin that King David committed and how God still used him." As if to suggest that Gothard gets a pass for molesting and harassing young women and girls, and that he still deserves to be in leadership; or that his sins don't in any way detract from his teachings, like King David.
Yes, King David was chosen by God. When Gothard's followers elevate him to King David status, via the comparison, it really demonstrates how unhealthy the level of Gothard worship is.
As quoted in the LA Times, April 5, 1982, by Len Nair, one of those in top leadership in the organization in the 70s: "God's people always wanted a king over them. We're no different. There was our perfect king."; Referring to Bill Gothard.
This is indeed what they made Bill Gothard into and what is so scary about the level of devotion that some still cling to.
Bill Gothard is not King David. King David was chosen by God. Bill Gothard was self appointed. King David was used by God to write Holy Scripture. Bill Gothard teaches false doctrinal ideas of a man, claiming that they are directives from God, thus usurping God's authority. He has been called out by religious scholars for decades as having one of the most twisted scriptural interpretations and biblical hermeneutics ever seen.
One major difference between David and BG is that David confessed and acknowledged his sin.
If Gothard is David, why do they hate anyone playing the prophet Nathan? And when did Gothard admit to judging another too harshly when he himself was guilty of the same sin? Do they admit Gothard is unworthy to build the temple as guilty David was?
David was a king, not a priest. Gothard took on a priestly role, purporting to teach us the law and to judge the flock.
David was a type of the Perfect Son who has come. We don't need another David. We have the True King. We need humble servants who do not judge others harshly and then demand unconditional forgiveness for themselves.
Another difference between King David and BG is not only David confessed his sin, he also suffered consequences for it afterwards. The baby died, the son rebelled against him and the end of his life, King David ended up being bed ridden unable to even have sex with any of this wives who were not even there to keep him warm. The excuse that "well we are all sinners" as if to sweep it under the carpet is an unbiblical excuse. The Bible at no time excused sins. Likewise, BG was teaching about having holy lives, making wise decisions and moral character. BG did not make wise decisions by surrounding himself with pretty young girls. BG did have demonstrate moral character by lies and coverup and he certainly can't follow his own no touching, being along teaching for courtship.
It is telling to compare Saul's response to David's. Saul covered up, made excuses, and expected Samuel to help him keep up appearances. Samuel would have no part of it; Samuel did not in any way prop up the idea that Saul was somehow entitled to live by a double standard.
Very insightful comment. Thanks Matthew
"The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. All the worst pleasures are purely spiritual: the pleasure of putting other people in the wrong, of bossing and patronising and spoiling sport, and back-biting, the pleasures of power, of hatred. For there are two things inside me, competing with the human self which I must try to become. They are the Animal self, and the Diabolical self. The Diabolical self is the worse of the two. That is why a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But, of course, it is better to be neither."
~ Mere Christianity~
Alfred are you focused on the sins of the flesh and minimizing the sins of the spirit? Gothard has admitted to pride. "It is a grief to realize how my pride and insensitivity have affected so many people." What kind of pride leads to that type of insensitivity? The kind of insensitivity that allows him to live separate from his own principles while demanding obedience from others? Not a small infraction. Doesn't the principles warn against the pride of life? Are you really focused on kissing when there are so many more harmful behaviors present by Gothard's own admission? How many has he harmed at the alter of his pride?
On this side of Glory pride is a faith issue without any legal fallout.
I know I am guilty of pride. It is painfully obvious to others who read my comments at times on this website. What shall I do, Nancy2? Do I collapse in a quivering mass of helplessness and failure, find a place to hide until I die? I did live there once. No . . . I am a guilty sinner, but Jesus died for me. For my pride too. I confess Him, I confess my sin . . . I take his grace and forgiveness . . . and I go on.
When others are affected we must do right by them. I learned that at the Basic Seminar. When I have sinned here I must humble myself and ask forgiveness. Bill must humble himself and seed forgiveness of those who have a matter against him. Looks like he has begun to do so. Let's see where it goes from here. I know the Board has not spoken yet. I suspect they will weigh in on some of the bigger issues, like who is lying and who is telling the truth . . . and what steps Bill should continue with to make things right. And, again, I KNOW Bill is actively seeking to make contact with those who have expressed specific concerns, to do so. He has no other agenda, job. As far as I know he continues in seclusion in the modest house he owns, calling, praying. If there are those that want to talk to him and tell him how he hurt them, now is the time to do that.
Alfred,
I'm surprised that you still try to reach those who keep condemning your position and opinion. They've been rude, called you names and made other attempts to ridicule and berate you. They make absolute statements as if they are anointed with a special understanding.
How do they know that what they have chosen to believe is the whole truth? Why do they feel the need to attack you for your opinion and observations? I feel sad for them. They seem so hurt and angry.
"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" comes to mind.
Using the 'first stone' verse in this way turns the story completely around and makes it an injunction against throwing rocks at the Pharisees!
Since we are quoting verses Proverbs 17:28 is my favorite.
Careful how you use the scriptures.
When I said you were focused on the sins of the flesh and not the sins of the spirit I was not talking about your personal sins Alfred. I was talking about your focus on Mr. Gothard's response concerning not kissing a girl. I am not attacking you personally, or attempting to point out sins in your life. I don't know you and that would be presumptuous of me. Besides my impression of you is not that of a prideful man holding himself above others.
Problem is Mr. Gothard has confessed to pride. I am believing him concerning what he said about his heart. I do not see how he can meet with everyone who has 'ought' against him. It isn't a small number. I pray he starts by recognizing how his own principles helped to create that spirit of pride, and through his leadership caused it to flourish in others.
Alfred, many of us are still praying for the Holy Spirit to guide Mr. Gothard into the kind of deep confession and repentance that will be needed to heal the part of the Body of Christ that was harmed by him. If he is focused on staying out of legal trouble at the expense of examining his teachings it will be difficult for him to get to that place of internal peace.
I was raised with ATIA to do what was right no matter the legal consequences, was I not?
@Ryan, exactly!
Cool avi by the way.
Let me put what is troubling me the most Alfred in a very simple statement.
It breaks my heart Alfred that you and others are being lead by a man who has confessed that he has left his First Love. So anyone serving what he considers his ministry is there to serve an institution not their First Love.
This is spiritual abuse. My heart is broken Alfred because you have been abused, and you are sincerely wanting to serve our precious Lord. Yet Mr. Gothard confessed to it being about building an institution and not about a relationship with the Savior.
I am thankful that in your own home you stepped out of Mr. Gothard's narrow vision and made life about loving the Savior.
"It breaks my heart Alfred that you and others are being lead by a man who has confessed that he has left his First Love."
Dittoes Nancy.
If indeed BG truly ever had that First Love.
So Alfred, are you saying that the Board is the FINAL word in knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth? Isn't that a bit presumptuous? What if they say that Bill is lying? Then who will you believe? It's the most logical conclusion they should come to but I doubt if that will happen. But again I point out that what caused me to turn from his teachings (BG's) was because they are not Biblical and present a false idea of the Scripture.
You make some good points Alfred
You calling the allegations and the pain of so many "unpleasant", is an effort to minimize what BG has done. He too has has minimized his behavior and so excused himself from responsibility. That is a well documented pattern of behavior that is predatory. Minimizing the value and pain of another and only thinking of oneself.
If you remove Charlottes story for the sake of discussion, we all would still be here discussing his awful behavior as a christian leader!!! And to our children is his behavior directed!!
I my daughters have heard of his "harem" for years and thought it was a silly little joke! NOT SO. I am outraged for the young girls. We would do well to protect them rather feed them to the wolves for one sick man no matter who he is.
I appreciate RG for "manning up" to offer a safe place for our "younger christian sisters and brothers/daughters and sons" to allow them the place to be validated and be heard. May this set precedence for all ministries to stop protecting criminal behavior.
Even my own siblings who worked there during the 'Meg' story, knew about Gothard's 'harem' although it wasn't called that of course. It was a standing joke with everyone else, 'oh, mr Gothard likes the pretty girls, the ones with the fitted clothes etc..' Being young, naive, and devotees, it never crossed their mind until years later how indicative that was of some wrong things going on. 'But it's mr Gothard, he would never do xyz!' See how dangerous that mindset was?
There have been a number of comments on RG regularly encouraging the focus to be turned to just how much Gothard's unbiblical school of exegetical thought has damaged lives and fostered the IBLP culture under which abuse has flourished. It may sound like a broken record at times, but Gothard's statement shows just why it's so important.
I'd like to think the best of people. I really do. In fact, I was ready to read Gothard's letter hoping that after all these years - even just after the few weeks following his resignation - he would come to a full understanding of what kind of legacy he has left behind, one of shame and manipulation. Maybe he's working toward that if he truly means what he's writing here. I don't know. None of us does except for God. But it's patently obvious from this letter that Gothard is not even close to being there. Gothard needs external accountability and a hefty amount of counseling if he wants to truly change after decades of manipulation.
He mentions how much he has placed his focus on the Institute instead of on loving people. And while it's true that his focus has been grossly misplaced, the Institute itself has been built on a foundation of wrong focus from the very beginning. As soon as we make our lives about more than what Christ has done for us, the enemy has already won. Have there been people who have been blessed by the Institute? Yes, but only because we serve an all-powerful God who is capable of working with imperfection to accomplish His will. That doesn't mean that He approves of our failings, abuses, or mistreatment of His Word, though.
Statements like "When there was a lack of love or consistency, sons and daughters saw this as hypocrisy and rejected it" are very telling of just how unwilling Gothard is to let go of what he has built. We didn't reject it merely because we saw hypocrisy. We rejected it because it was unbiblical, said "Christ isn't enough," and was ultimately not a feasible life to live, as demonstrated by Bill's unwillingness to adhere to the very standards he required of everyone else.
IBLP needs to go. All of it. It's time to put the focus back on Christ where it belongs, and that can only happen through a desire to simply know Him more, not the manmade systems we like to construct to attain superiority and security.
Thank you for this, J.B. I agree 100%!!
YES! Amen!
Thank you J.B.Thank you recovering grace.There's always interpretations of a body of evidence,but what testimonies have been made have impacted theological issues,about my own responsibilities,my relationship to the weak,downtrodden,exploited.At the end of life,to The Christ.The testimonies I have read here are a VOICE THAT PLEADS for awhile,then comes chrystallization of the heart,hardness,sometimes threatening"Today if you hear His Voice, harden not your heart."Last Days.Inward Decisions affecting motivations for eternity,then darkness or light.Seriously.
Do not read this comment further if you want to avoid spoilers for Captain America: The Winter Soldier.
"IBLP needs to go. All of it."
As soon as I read that line I saw Captain America in the recent film determinedly pronouncing that S.H.I.E.L.D. must be taken down.
All of it.
When "Hydra" infiltrates you this completely, yes, it's time to go. No excuses, no salvaging, no nonsense. Blow up ALL the giant Hellicarriers.
YES! I'm so glad someone caught the reference!
It's funny you mention this, Stephen. I had the EXACT same thought when that line was delivered! Fun that others saw the similarities, too. When an organization becomes corrupt, at what point can it be rehabilitated? When it has lost the gospel and focus on Jesus, is it worth saving? Worthy questions to ponder...
I agree with you. This whole ministry is rotten to the core.
Thanks for this post. Much agreed.
The part of BG's letter that gave me a shiver was that it is laced throughout with insinuation that he is still a guru of spiritual insight. It is time for professionals to be involved at all levels...institutional and personal counselors and investigators. If he confesses just enough to control some damage and even promote himself as more humble and with deeper insight and more ready to lead than ever then it will just be another level of evil. I don't use the word "evil" lightly or flippantly.
RG, keep up the hard and important work.
Paul,
Your thoughts are right on. I couldn't quite put my finger on this part but you did very well. It could be the most deceptive and damaging of all.
" If he confesses just enough to control some damage and even promote himself as more humble and with deeper insight and more ready to lead than ever "
It is more than likely that this is exactly his plan. I think he thinks so highly of himself that he believes he can pull it off, and it may be the organization's final undoing. It may not be immediately apparent, but his letter is oozing with narcissism, and this is exactly how a narcissist would plan his next move. I don't believe he can possibly envision the organization without him at the helm.
Yes Paul. And even legal professionals need to be involved as many laws have been broken.
Thank you, Recovering Grace, for continuing to deal with this! I cannot imagine the toll this has taken on all of you as you seek the Lord and make decisions as to how you will respond.
As I read Bill Gothard's letter, I just felt that something was missing, like it didn't go far enough. Your response has "hit the nail on the head!" Thank you for not backing down and continuing to graciously share what still needs to be done.
My thoughts exactly, LJ!
YES
Yes! Thank you all for putting all of our concerns together!
Labor practices that are illegal....Nothing was mentioned about how he and his family got very getting rich by having people work in deplorable conditions for free and way beneath minimum wages (eg. telling workers not to document overtime etc.), minors and workers subject to sexual harassment,impossible to please stress, improper questioning, fired without just cause, sent to be under his sexual predator brother (BG knew what the outcome of that would be).
BG was a pseudo Christian version of the Taliban complete with the Bill version of a Burka, the value of women, etc. and not scriptural.
Non of that was addressed in his letter of avoiding consequences
Connie,
Excellent addition. The legal side is often neglected in Christian comments.
Wow,
You are right on.
I was shocked to see what the value of the ministry is worth.
All the while we paid for, hard to find blue and white and other clothing that "met the standard" so our kids wouldn't be harassed or out of place.
He isn't likely admit to sexual harassment because it could open the door to legal issues for him. I am quite sure his legal team told him NOT to admit to anything specific that would bring charges against him. :(
This might keep him out of hot water with the law..for a little while at least... but not with God. His actions have been seen by our Heavenly Father. My prayer is that Gothard will truly repent and be restored to his Heavenly Father. Lord, have Your way with William Gothard. Prick his heart...lead him to full and complete repentance.
Why does anyone on this website continue to argue with @Alfred? It's a complete waste of time. I could honestly care less what @Alfred or any other Gothardite thinks. I do appreciate RG and their constant pursuit of the truth. Also, this "statement" by Bill Gothard is absolute nonsense. He confesses to touching girls, but without a trace of sexual intent? Yeah Bill.... and I visit a certain wings restaurant with an owl logo because their chicken is better than anyone else's. Right... Bill Gothard isn't sorry. He's sorry he got caught. If he was any kind of man, he would come out and admit he's been lying and tell the truth. But he's not a man, he's a coward. Instead of taking a wife, he preferred to fulfill his sexual fantasies with girls young enough to be his grandchildren. I have zero use for the man. Zero. He tried to wreck my teenage years, and nearly succeeded, but thankfully my parents wised up and pulled me out of ATI and placed me in public school. I hope that justice is meted out as swiftly as possible and that Bill Gothard is taken care of. Keep up the great work RG. I am behind you 110%.
lol...thought maybe you were @ owl-ville donating fleece tops to the girls who obviously could not afford to dress warmly....
You owe me a computer monitor!
Actually, @Alfred has been really useful for me! My own church is facing a situation of spiritual abuse, and those who justify it use the exact. same. arguments. to defend the pastor's behavior as Alfred does for BG. (It's normal, it was just a small mistake, it's been misunderstood, who are we to judge his heart, some people like him, touch not the anointed, etc). So it has helped me identify those with their fingers in their ears, and face the justify-any-behavior-lest-we-be-forced-to-admit-we-were-wrong-about-this-guy crowd. :-)
IF there is utility in talking with our friend Alfred, it is precisely this; the errors in his (and Bill's , for that matter) thinking do not stop with Bill/IBLP, sad to say. No, the same kind of mindset and hermenuetic that got us into this ditch, is alive and 'well' in other venues. thanks, P.L.
@P.L.- great point. One of the big lessons learned for me in recent years is how the deceived, half-informed, ignorant, narcissistic, will twist things such that even the most steady folks will begin to wonder if they're the crazy ones. If cults were so easily sniffed out they'd never gain any traction in the first place. This is why folks like Tony are so commendable in their resolve. This is why so many have rallied to RG. It helps to realize that you're not crazy for pointing out the emperor has no clothes.
Every time I read the defense that he's just a fatherly type that had no idea his actions could be perceived as anything but benign I check it's plausibility against what Alfred and others would say had I played footsie with and stroked the hair of the girls in my college ministry. And don't give me the he's just a special kind of spiritual leader B.S.- that is the definition of a narcissist; the rules don't apply to them because they're so special. The Kingdom of God will do just fine if Gothard and IBLP or myself for that matter goes away! He's not that special.
Reminds me of this, which if you're in the early stages of coming out of Gothardist legalism you might not have seen but should :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikssfUhAlgg
All the 'super-spiritual' lingo in BG's supposed apology is a smoke screen. Think of the tax-collector that Jesus talked about. "Have mercy on me, a sinner." Kneeling and crying. Weeping in shame and sorrow. He didn't go on and on with a lot of Bible verses thrown in. Funny, the other guy did that, didn't he?
The prodigal son didn't say, "Well dad, I'm still a pretty good guy, just did a few dumb things, sorry 'bout that, not really all that bad though, so here I am, aren't you glad I'm back? Now let me be boss of your farm again."
The 12 step program says to make amends where you can, for what you've done to others. I'm pretty sure BG still has the address of every person that has ever been under his 'ministry'. If he is really repentant, I would think that he would HUMBLY spend the rest of his life trying to contact these people. From prison. I would. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Even if I thought I wasn't in the wrong, if the other person felt violated, their feelings are valid, and I would do my best to make it right, never mind all these lovely young ladies who really were violated. He had a fetish for younger and younger girls, and that is beyond sick. Didn't he used to say (or was that Jim Sammons?) that if a dad was thinking dirty thoughts, the sons would pick up the vibes and think them, too? So BGs obvious fantasizing would have violated the thoughts of everyone in the ministry, if that is true. Maybe that's why there was so much abuse going on within the families, etc.?
Let's face it, Gothard is just another hypocrite "leader" out for his own glory and gain, not unlike countless other leaders and politicians. Hard to believe anyone would follow this weirdo, he should learn a real job and do some honest work for once in his life, besides ruining countless lives.
I know personally how Gothard's hypocritical teachings have hurt people deeply and unnecessarily, and how some people so blindly and fanatically follow him, accepting his every word as though it came from God himself. I recall that almost twenty years ago as a young soldier I used to resist and argue with a senior civilian official who came to the chapel who tried to bring this Gothardism to the military on a small base in NYC. I never accepted this garbage, but unfortunately someone close to me did . . . and my resistance to it meant losing that person in the end. Now that Gothard is revealed as the hypocrite that he is, I hope this father sees the error of his ways . . . although I doubt it.
He is 79 years old. It is possible he may have forgotten some things. By the way, does this site only publish emails that agree with them? A lot of the comments do seem kinda extreme.
Possibly...but he wasn't 79 years old 40 years ago, and these practices and denials have been going on a long, long time.
Veronique, this site is a Christian site, which believes the vast majority of IBLP/ATI teaching is unscriptural, so of course you are going to see a lot of disagreement with the teaching here.
Lately, most of us have been shocked to read the multiple testimonies of the women Gothard singled out for close, intimate relationships, accompanied by a ghastly inappropriate (to say nothing of sinful) physical component to these multiple relationships.
You can't help people for getting angry and reacting to that. From time to time, there have been witnesses to either the bad behavior directly, or to noting Gothard spending a lot of time alone with these women, in closed room type situations. This is a time on this site where more and more women are speaking out, and so I guess you would be hard pressed to find many sympathizers with Gothard here. And with that latest apology of his stating no sexual intent, with the backing of IBLP, I am thoroughly and completely disgusted. Yes, there are some teachings of Gothard that I think have merit, and are biblically sound. But right now they are being overshadowed by so much rottenness it would seem out of place to speak of them. Knowing the confusion and heartache he has caused for so many.
I have been shocked too, but words like Taliban , sexual predator, etc. seems over-much. Recovering Proportion should be added to recovering grace. And people should acknowledge their own responsibility for accepting wrong doctrine. It's not like we weren't allowed to read the Bible ourselves.
Hi Veronique, (btw, is your name pronounced 'Veronica' or 'Verahneek'? I've never seen it spelled like that.)
It's not quite that simple for those who, like myself, were raised with Bill's teachings from birth, taught to read the Bible with his teachings in mind, and not taught objectivity/critical thinking/or even logic.
When it's all you've ever known, it's extremely difficult to separate the 'wheat from the tares' so to speak.
While I don't know what ratio of those on this website can identify with myself as having been raised in this/brainwashed from childhood etc.. I have a strong feeling it's in the majority.
For us then, it's not a mere matter of just swallowing whatever we were told without questioning it. It's much deeper than that.
Hope that gives some perspective. :)
Veronique, you're correct that no one prevented us from reading the Bible for ourselves. Sadly, when key concepts (such as grace) are improperly defined, one's understanding of the Bible itself is also distorted. I was raised in an insular ATI family and exposed to Gothard's false teaching when I was too young to know anything else. Now that I'm an adult, I take full responsibility for analyzing what I believe, but that doesn't negate the harm done or my continuing struggle to unlearn the lies I was taught.
You asked why people seemed to relish sharing the harm they experienced--I think it's been very freeing and validating for so many to learn they weren't the only ones struggling or questioning the validity of BG's teachings. Hopefully you'll find this passage from "The Mom Factor" to be helpful:
"When our emotions are out of control, we need them to be validated; that is, we need someone to experience them with us as real, painful, and scary. This is what empathy is—-to walk in someone’s emotional moccasins. When we validate, we affirm: “You’re not making this up to get attention—these feelings are difficult.” ...When our feelings are understood, clarified, and validated, they are transformed and we are then able to build bridges back to reality...we need people to whom we can talk and who will understand without invalidating our feelings...invalidating statements include:
• You shouldn’t feel that way.
• It’s not that bad.
• You’re overreacting.
• Don’t be so sensitive.
• Where’s your faith?"
Unfortunately, due to the insular nature of ATI, this forum may be one of only a few places someone can obtain this validation.
I do see your concern about the Taliban characterization. While I certainly find it an extreme example, I've studied Islam and specifically those groups that are extreme, and when I was discussing this topic with my sister, as we were both raised in a similar homeschooling background, I actually used extremist Islam (minus the violent acts) as an example of how extreme IBLP taught certain cultural factors the idea of obedience. So while it is a bit extreme, sadly it somewhat fits, at least in how applications were followed. But it's something I wouldn't share in most forums cause it does sound over-the-top.
I've compared it to Islam-lite (that does exist), the patriarchal way that things are set up, although that probably explains Vision Forum more accurately than ATI, however I like to say that Vision Forum is ATI on steroids.. so...
I've also literally told people, 'I was basically raised Amish in the city,' as the best way to quickly explain why I came across as such a stupid person when I first got out in the real world. Those were frustrating and rather depressing days. I was NOT equipped to face the real world. :(
@Veronique
While being a Christian site I am agnostic at best and never have problems with my comments being published. Bill left a pretty big wake. If you were not affected by the wake than you were obviously in a different lake and very fortunate.
On another note, the man's memory is uncanny.
My lake was California, and my experience with IBLP was balanced out by my local church and the fellowship of other Christians. I am so sorry for the hurt that so many have expressed, and so grieved and disappointed. But still, many of the letters seem happy to have a reason to rant, and how does that help anyone?
You had a healthy dose. Some of us binged!!!! Ha
I think that we need to be understanding of how deeply the teaching of BG affected so many people's entire life and how huge a work they have ahead of them to find their way through it. To do this means facing all of it head on and it brings out so many emotions and perspectives and a need to express them as we are seeing in the comments. I do not blame BG for all of this. It is all of our responsibility to question everything and to not put a leader in such high regard, ever. It reveals to me how I need to prepare my children in regards to respect and submission to authority and when to speak up and take a stand. As much as I increasingly questioned so much of his teachings over the years and could not open any of his material for the past 10 or 15 years, I have to admit that I was shocked at the news of the allegations. He has violated so many principles that it is now difficult to think of one that he spoke of that he truly lived by. It is all tainted and I feel deeply betrayed. Do I want to crucify him? No! But I am flooded with many guilty emotions that I had to work through as I gradually gave my self the freedom to think and live differently. We cannot walk away from this quickly and try to move on. So much is to be learned from all of this as we wrestle with our own story, other's stories and coming to terms with BG/IBLP itself.
Well said Heidi
thank you Veronique..I'm afraid to write words of objectivity for fear of being called a Gothardite. RG has the reputation for being an objective forum which must take place in any Christian venue in a situation such as this.
I see very little in this feed here...
Lori, what is your opinion of the main entry? I thought it was very well worded, both in its agreement, and in its concerns.
Thank you, RG, for continuing to report and respond in such a grace-filled manner. I pray for you, that you will have the wisdom and strength of Jesus Christ in handling all that has come about because you chose and continue to choose to tell the truth and call sin "sin." God bless you!
This response is tempered, wise, and relatively mild. It is full of grace. My sense, however, is that Bill Gothard is a full-blown sociopath, and he's simply looking for a way to return to his powerful position, just like he did in 1980. He'll say whatever it takes in order to achieve that end. I recommend "A Matter of Basic Principles: Bill Gothard & the Christian Life" for a great review of the MANY reckless and hurtful deeds of BG over the years. There is absolutely no reason for him to be restored to ministry, as his "ministry" has always been deeply flawed.
Veronica, I could not agree more.
BG sounds like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth, because that is, in fact, how sociopaths act. As such,he knows what he did was wrong, and he doesn't care . He just wants his playpen back.
Perfectly stated!
Thank you, RG, for your balanced and gracious response to BG's statement. I was beginning to give up hope that there would be any reasonable discussion of this, but now I am encouraged. May Christ triumph in this difficult and painful situation as only He can. "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for Me?" (Jeremiah 32:27)
Thanks RG for your steady and deliberate hand. Thank you for taking the risk of defending the women who until this point have had vey little if any voice. Thank you for standing with "Charlotte" and the others so quickly cast aside for the sake of a man and his self-mad religion. Thank you for your generous firmness with Mr. Gothard and IBLP. Praying for repentance, healing, and the end of the false teachings. Praying that you will remain courageous in the midst of the accusations and your own self-doubts. Praying that you all are free from being consumed by these matters and their outcome as you devote so much of your time and energy to them.
Amen
Truth. Our relations fall into 2 categories: those to whom we give the benefit of the doubt and those to whom we do not. I have been conflicted about Gothard's "apology," knowing that he has not earned the benefit of the doubt, and this response states, exactly, the personal conclusion, which I have been seeking. On first glance, it seemed that Gothard was offering the apology that we have all wanted for so long, but #4 pretty much invalidated that possibility. We should welcome and restore to fellowship anyone who confesses and repents of their wrongdoing, but this just doesn't get Bill to that point. In conclusion, it seems that he is not willing to acknowledge the doctrinal heresy, which is core to the way he lives his life and makes disciples, and nothing will change until that root problem is corrected.
I would encourage all RG members to do something that I have done. In the comment section of Gothard's "apology," I recommended that he post a video of his apology. In this age of Youtube, this would not be difficult. This holds him to his own standard of avoiding apologizing via letter and allows the recipients to read his eyes, face, and body language for sincerity. Unsurprisingly, my comment has not yet been approved or posted by the site admin. Keep up the good work RG.
I am impressed by two-three things in all your writings.
1. Your willingness to somehow believe every detail of Charlotte (about the only "real" case you have here) and disbelieve everything BG states regarding this issue.
2. You courage to sign your own statements. Even the people who comment positively about your remarks have to address you as R.G (that even becomes funny when one reads the disclaimer in the end of your article about the "author"). When an "author" decides to arbitrarily take on a minister that has been used by God to help some million plus youngsters, the least he/she/it can do is to put a name under the writings. These types of witnesses reminds me of those brought in by the Jewish rules against Christ: the remarkable thing about them is that they had no names. They were just called "worthless people".
3. I fail to see on your website any of the close to one million positive testimonials of those families who benefited greatly by Bill's teaching. When one looks at this statistics even CNN seems the most balance, truth seeking forum compared with yours.
My humble advice is this. If you seek any credibility first have the minimal decency to put a name under your witting. And secondly, keep a bit of balance. I somehow doubt that this comment will ever appear on your forum, but who knows..we are celebrating the week of miracles..
@Andrei
Just because you choose to believe something doesn't make it the truth. Those of us that worked on staff and spent time at headquarters know how real the hypocrisy is and the extent of its effect on others. My own father states that he would not have even homeschooled me, much less have bought into what turned out to be B.G.'s personal preferences and nothing to do with Biblical standards.
R.G. does a good job of moderating and they are to be commended. I am grateful to them and to all those who have shared their experiences.
Dear Mr/Mrs Anonymous,
Just because you chose to believe something, it does not make it true.
I also worked with the institute on two continents, for several years. I travel, and speak here and abroad, in churches and on radio, so indulge me a bit.
First, you (whoever you may be) run a site dedicated exclusively to demolish everything associated with Bill. There is nothing else, not one thing that is not meant to show something negative about Bill Gothard. Forgive my blunt words, but a site that has a single purpose to denigrate somebody is absurd, even if that somebody is the devil himself.
I am required by my profession to take a sexual harassment/abuse class EVERY Year. I read EVERY case on your web site. Your definition of sexual abuse is so legally overstated (except Charolotte’s case) that I do not wonder why you are hiding your name. The overwhelming majority of your testimonials are pitiful, ridiculous absurdities: He winked; he touched somebody’s foot under the table. That is all you were able to find in years of collecting garbage about a man?
Christ has done worse, my dear friend: He let prostitutes kiss His holy feet. And He had His version of anonymous “leaders” talking about Him in the same way. That is all you were able to find digging in the garbage for years? I could have done better, without ANY investigation.
Let me be clear here. I do not discard or try to minimize or ridicule the feelings and experiences of some of these girls, or to condone hand holding, improper touch, winking of the eyes, or worse. But a website dedicated for years to the sole purpose of showing the evil of Bill Gothard that cannot find anything except highly interpreted stuff, has one characteristic to me: hate and obsession.
You state that you “know” Gothard and the organization. But so do many hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of pastors, church leaders who worked with him, who contributed heavily with this ministry and who whose lives and ministries have been changed by Gothard’s work. None of them know the “evil” Gothard, and his “false” teachings? Some of them are internationally recognized leaders.
Should we believe them, who have faces, names, and signatures, or we should believe you, who continue to hide under R.G initials?
I personally know hundreds if not thousands of people who were changed, them, their children and for many, their grandchildren, by the teaching of this ministry. And I should discard all, and believe an anonymous fellow hiding behind some girl’s testimonials?
But you, like many on the web, spew out stuff, knowing that majority of people have no critical reading skills. They will, to use your words, “chose to believe” everything, without checking anything.
Let me propose something, since you already shocked me by letting my comment thru. I will write, with my limited English skills an analysis of your findings and your web site, and you publish it on your front page. Just to have at least one, one small, insignificant opposing opinion. How bad can it be, to let one article from somebody who was blessed, call it “tricked” if you wish, by this evil fellow? And I will sign it, and put my personal email on it.
This is a first! I have never seen a comment where someone felt entitled to offer an analysis of someone's blog and to have it posted front-page.
Maybe Bill should've talked to you first. Sounds like he has no reason to have stepped down or to apologize. No moral failures to speak of. No inappropriate actions toward subordinates. I'm sure your employer wouldn't mind you acting in a similar vein.
Move along folks. This is all just trumped up nonsense. How could thousands of positive testimonies be argued with?
Andrei,
I apologize if I'm just misreading you, but the fact that you seem to be unwilling to comprehend why the women who have shared the testimonies on this website are hesitant to use their real names is comparative in nature indicates that you ARE minimizing what these women have experienced and do not understand the subtle power of the abuse that has characterized the IBLP machine. We can talk all day about how many people have apparently benefited from IBLP and Gothardism versus how many have not. But the mere existence of multiple stories like this and others from those who are in situations where speaking up isn't an option or who have lived under an abusive, silencing system for so long that speaking up is just starting to become a feasible reality is proof positive that we're looking at a bad tree that has produced much bad fruit.
Also, if you honestly believe that the majority of the stories and comments on here exhibit "hate and obsession," you need to view the comments on some of the not-so-Christian outlets that have published stories about Gothard's resignation and personal experiences with IBLP. What you see here does not even come close. Recovering Grace has done nothing but approach this in the most biblical way possible and provided a safe haven where people can share their stories and be validated after years - if not decades for some - of bondage. At the risk of sounding terse, Andrei, you do not get to define what is or isn't "bad enough" when it comes to their experiences. They are broken people who are struggling to rebuild and who need a safe place. The decision to publish the articles and testimonies you've read has not been an easy one and was chosen only after a long process of attempting to communicate with Gothard, which has been fully documented.
@MatthewS: better jump on this offer, you are quite likely getting in on the ground floor of Andrei's basic blog principles. this makes the RG crowd 'first family' members....
Perhaps those hundreds and thousands of people who have benefited from Gothard's teachings should start their own website and share their own personal testimonies. You know. Balance and all.
I find it a little ironic that (assuming Andrei is not just trolling) criticizes the fact that RG doesn't publish all their articles under full names yet as a person who claims to be a somewhat public figure declined publish his comments under his own full name. . .
Thanks Andrei...finally a voice of reason on this site
And with that statement you have totally discredited every other person who has commented on this site as being unreasonable to include the women who's testimony has been validated by Gothard's own statement!
@Andrei, did you click on the blue lettering that links to the open letter to IBLP?
http://iblpopenletter.com
Some of those connected with RG and addressing the many issues are signers on that letter. RG isn't a secret society.
This article seems to be addressed by the group as opposed to an individual. Other articles by individuals usually have the author at the bottom.
I'm guessing Andrei was a drive-by.
1. In the Editor's note to Charlotte's story (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/charlottes-stori/), RG states that they investigated her story for several months before choosing to publish it, interviewing other witnesses and consulting legal counsel. They did not lightly choose to believe Charlotte.
2. The names of two of the leaders of RG are Dr. John Cornish and Kari Underwood: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/recovering-grace-interviewed-on-christian-talk-radio/. The website FAQ explains why most of the team chooses to stay unknown: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/questions-from-the-mailbag/. Many of the authors of individual articles use their full names, though some do not for obvious security and privacy reasons due to the nature of their stories - this is a common practice for other Christian organizations, such as missions, for the protection of the vulnerable. The attempted analogy to the Pharisees' lack of identification breaks down in the face of the facts that (a) the Pharisees confronted Christ face to face, and thus their identities were clearly known to Him; and (b)the Gospel accounts were written by Christ's followers who surely had no reason to protect the reputation of the Pharisees by not naming all the individual Pharisees.
3. There are other sites available for supporters of ATI. RG's purpose is clearly stated here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/our-mission/. Many of the readers who comment here, myself among the rest, agree with RG's purpose. Thus, there is bound to be more comments in support of this site than of BG. Besides, just in this thread, there are several supporters of BG whose comments have been posted. Those who find that their comments have been moderated and removed may want to ensure that they did not break the rules about comments, found here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/comments/
Disclaimer: I am not in any way associated or working with the Recovering Grace website, nor am I personally acquainted with any of the team members. I am merely a former ATI apprenticeship student who reads the Recovering Grace site regularly.
@ Andre, welcome to this site--as you've learned, all non-ad/spam comments seem to be accepted :)
If you have a verifiable reference for your claim of 'close to one million positive testimonials', then I'd be interested.
However, God has harsh words for those who harm even ONE believer. Matthew 18:6 doesn't say: 'If you help a million people, then God will happily overlook your offenses against a hundred people.' Since I (and many others) were adversely affected by Gothard's teachings, I pray that BG would 'bear fruit in keeping with repentance'.
You claim it's cowardly to post accusations anonymously, but you don't even use your full name. Perhaps you believe that leveling charges against a 'big name' like BG requires more candor than when it's done against 'Charlotte', but it seems to be a double standard. IMO, it's completely legitimate and possibly even prudent to post under a pseudonym due to Gothard's (and his ministries') tendency to penalize dissenters.
As others have stated multiple times, Gothard's sexual sins (though causing untold harm to many) are only a SMALL part of his errors; I find your conflation of the varied issues into one of a sexual nature to be disturbing. I think RG has done (and is continuing to do) a wonderful job of highlighting ALL the issues.
I greatly admire and am grateful for those who bravely shared their experiences on this site. You seem to think that Charlotte is less believable than BG, yet BG is a PROVEN liar (which makes taking his words at face value seem somewhat gullible). I found these two articles to be particularly helpful, and would recommend them to you:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-call-for-discernment/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/1983-transcript/
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing."
I actually left a comment that was not printed. It was just a question about what seemed to me a contradiction in one of the stories, regarding repressed memories. I did not think it was inflammatory or attacking anyone's credibility.
When did you leave it? There was a moderator note saying that over the past weekend they changed hosts and some comments were coming and going because of that.
Hi Veronique, just for what it's worth, depending on when you made the comment, it may have been lost in cyber space. A day or two ago, the website was changing servers (or something), and a dozen or so comments got lost in the process. That may have been what happened to your comment.
Repost it
We don't HAVE to call Recovering Grace 'RG', that kind of happened by itself, it was more convenient to type two letters rather than 15 letters, esp if you were in a hurry, and by now, most everyone on either side of the fence knows what 'RG' stands for.
Secondly, comment moderation is exceptionally mild. You must not have read very much on this website if you think opposing viewpoints are not permitted.
There are a few positive testimonials, you just haven't taken the time to look. If I'm not mistaken, the title to one of the articles is, 'What my parents did right'. And there were a few articles from those whose experiences weren't as bad. The reason there aren't as many positive articles is because there aren't as many positive experiences as you may think. The one million number, well probably that many people have come across IBLP/ATI in their lifetime, but that doesn't mean that those one million people have positive success stories. This site represents thousands of former students, parents, and even a few bystanders who watched a family member's life wrecked by legalism, and regret their involvement. And those numbers are growing.
Andrei, I would like to add that those who (like myself) use pseudonyms, do so for privacy reasons usually having to do with family situations. If I posted my real name, I have family members whose lives would suddenly become alot harder and more miserable than they already are. I do not use a pseudonym for my safety, but for someone else's, and the girls who used pseudonyms for the harrassment/molestation stories, did so for personal safety. There are some horrid, creepy people in this world, and it's foolish to put too much identifying information on the internet, which is why I presume you didn't put your full name either.
Your doubt that your comment would even appear on this site demonstrates how very little you understand about Recovering Grace. They actually post opposing views. Try posting an opposing view on your leader's site and see if it sees the light of day.
On most of the Bill/IBLP stuff, there is no comment thread of any kind....we don't need 'negative reports' here , I guess. No questions, no discussion, no problems. dreamland.
Kevin,
Actually, a couple of my comments have been edited or eliminated on this site while Bill Gothard responded personally to my email to him, so I don't really understand your comment this time.
Hi Mary,
They did have a server change and lost some posts, but there are hundreds of posts that you can read all over RG that express opposing views and have not been edited or deleted because they challenge RG or other posters. I can't speak to what you have experienced, only that they did a server switch and some posts where inadvertently lost, so perhaps that was it. You have expressed many views counter to RG which I have read, so they are clearly letting your voice be heard, which I think is great.
Can you repost those things which you believe were deleted? Or give an example of something that was removed from one of your posts? There seems to be almost no editing at all that goes on here, as is stated by the moderators- and I think the anti RG posts that we see, which are sometimes vicious, are testament to that.
IBLP and Bill Gothard's personal site never allow comments that challenge them. People have tried to post comments to Bill Gothard's website of such a nature- he does have a comment feature on his site, but none of them ever get through.
I'm not talking about personal emails, but published comments for all to read. He has responded to my personal emails as well.
Thanks, Kevin, for the information. I appreciate your response. Perhaps it was during the change of servers, as you suggest.
I've noticed the comment feature on Bill Gothard's web site. I believe the comments do get through, but none are being published at this time. I also believe that Bill Gothard reads them all, since he said he is devoting his full energies to this matter.
It's my opinion that there is no excuse for folks to be vindictive with their comments on any site. I appreciated being challenged about possible bitterness during my opening post. I examined my heart and discovered that I needed to forgive those who disregarded all the good that Joe Paterno accomplished during his life because he, for whatever reason, did not do what was right in the Sandusky case.
Anyone can be deceived. Even the rich and famous. I'm asking that folks just please give the man the opportunity to work through all of the accusations and wait to see if he does what is right. He's harmless now. He gave his life to his ministry. It's all he knows.
P.S. I have a question about why Paul Speed continues in a leadership role since he openly admitted to being addicted to pornography at one time. Isn't that considered a moral failure, too?
Of course there is some good stuff in BG's ministry. So is there in Mormonism and the many other cults that abound. Satan will give you an ocean of truth if he can put a drop of a lie in it, and this has a few more drops than just one. What did you think? That he would fill the whole ocean with lies? That would be way too easy to figure out, wouldn't it?
I have worked at the institute in Basic Life Principles for a year and found no fault with Mr. Gothard except for the things he has admitted too, mostly with pride and favoritism.
No I was not one of his favorites and yes I was a little hurt by that.
But you do have to remember that he is just a man! But a man of God. No he is not perfect, You will never find a perfect man on the face of this earth.
we have all been hurt by someone else's pride, but that's where we need to obey God as he says to FORGIVE.
Pride is our greatest enemy, and we all have it.
Pride tells us not to forgive because they do not deserve our forgiveness, and we want to hurt them as they have hurt us.
By not forgiving, you are hurting yourselves and not the offender.
Why? Because it all has to do with the reason who pride is connected to.
Satan doesn't want mr Gothard in this ministry because he hates the truth and light.
And you are allowing Satan to use you for worst by believing the lies he is telling you and spreading them.
God has used mr. Gothard in so many ways to reach out to others and point them to Christ.
These teaching are not mr. Gothards teachings, these teachings are Gods teaching and come directly from Him.
If you would read your bible and study on The Lords word then you too would see they come from God.
Just because one man offended you doesn't make him an evil man!
"Who have you offended?"
by naming this group recovering
Grace, I just want you to know, Grace is never lost because Grace comes from The Lord. And He states it very clearly in his word, James 4:6. God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Mr. Gothard humbled himself by writing out where he has wronged others. His first love is Jesus Christ, he makes this very clearly when he said,
"For many years I have been building the Institute but losing my first love for the Lord. God warns “I know thy works, and thy labour . . . Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent. . . ” (Revelation 2:2, 4, 5). I
This is for all you who have commented, or are about too.
Jesus states in His word:
"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20.
Before you know who to believe why not test the Spirit first?
Here is the link to mr. Gothards statement.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10200702381242227&id=1842297424
Hi Warrior of God, no-one is blaming Bill Gothard for not being perfect, I don't know why different people keep assuming this. No-one expects him to be perfect(although he certainly seemed to expect that of everyone else).
As for the fruit, my friend, WE are the fruit. We do not complain of petty offenses as our biggest complaints, his teachings are toxic, a false gospel. We each of us have experienced Spiritual damage ranging from mild to very severe because of his teachings. We lived his teachings the way he taught them. His reference to 'hurt feelings because of favoritism' grossly undermines the real offenses. We are concerned that he is not admitting the more serious sins.
In regards to the title 'Recovering Grace' it is a reference to the fact that Gothard's definition of grace is false, we are recovering the true meaning of God's wonderful grace, because we never learned the right one under Gothard. It is not a reference that we believe God's grace can be lost. Hopefully that will clear that up for you. :)
If you were not a favorite of Gothard (and thank God you weren't!) then you may not have worked closely enough with him to see anything but the humble persona he presents to others. Would you be willing to consider the testimony of dozens of people who worked with him for much longer than one year, that he is not what he seems to be?
Anyway, thanks for posting, I hope you read around a bit more.
(Just for the record, I am not a moderator, or part of the 'official' Recovering Grace team, just a long time reader.)
Warrior of God,
Thank you for taking the time to post. I respect where you are coming from. My only comment is that in my life, now 40 and Bill influenced since I was 5 when I couldn't watch Scoobydoo any more, I have a huge test group with 35 years of results to pull from. Lots of wreckage.
I appreciate your vigor. My only advice, get a college degree.
I seriously don't want to hurt anyone by my words.
I do have compassionate heart for people!
I stick up for mr. Gothard because I have seen his compassion for others.
He would never hurt anyone intensually, and he loves his staff as if they were his
Children!
God has used him in my life in a very strong and convicting way
And I don't know why people can't see these things.
Warrior,
If he did not help people as you stated then the ministry would be zero. He did help people tremendously in many ways.
He also hurt some people tremendously in many ways. No one wants to hammer him for those things but when what he did was wrong/sinful it is the responsibility for accountability.
I often thought when I heard something that puzzled me that "surely there is a board that they work together on". Now I see that didn't happen either. He was not submissive to his authorities and here we are struggling to make sense of it all.
Don't throw away what God has shown you, but do trust God to show you Himself and how you are to live.
Warrior, I remembered the Scripture when the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus, and He asked them for which of his good deeds did they want to stone Him for, their response was, 'We do not stone you for a good deed, but for blasphemy'.
Please note that I am NOT comparing Bill to Jesus in even the smallest way, rather the situation seemed appropriate and comparable. None of us are angry at any good, positive thing that Bill's ministry may have produced over the years. Mormons, Catholics, Buddhists, and other religious groups have done good, positive, helpful things for people, does that diminish the harm any of those groups or religions have done?
Sorry for the multiple comments Warrior, you seem like a genuine person.
I would answer your statement, 'why can't people see these things.' with this:
Each and every person on this sight was once in your position. I could have sworn that Bill was a godly man, his teachings were gospel, and it benefitted my life greatly.
It took more years than I'd like to think about, for me to open my eyes and finally admit to myself that my life, and my family's was in shambles, and that the teachings did not help us, they hindered us, and put a terrible burden of law upon us, rather than the freedom and peace of Christ. It took years.
Once upon a time, we all would have said what you say now. But we realized it was all a lie. I can certainly speak for myself, it gave me no pleasure to realize this, and it still gives me no pleasure now, to realize that I WAS right in my questions and misgivings.
No keep commenting!
I respect people who stand their ground.
But i also have a ground to stand on, and until we all hear it from the board
Our questions will remain coming.
I pray that God will intervene in such a way
That we will all know the truth.
If worst comes to worst, then I will not be afraid to admit that I
was wrong.
No keep commenting!
I respect people for standing their ground.
But I have a ground to stand on too, and until we all hear it
Directly from the board, our questions will keep coming.
I pray that Hod will intervene in such a way that we will all know the truth!
And if worst comes to worst, I will not be afraid to admit I was wrong.
Sorry for the double post"
Warrior,
I hope that you, too, keep posting brother. Opposing views are welcome here.
@"Megan"
Your post that starts,
Sorry for the multiple comments Warrior, you seem like a genuine person....
Right on the mark. Warrior, we were there also. Many of us in very deep, that's why we're here. Keep an open mind and thank you for listening.
Warrior of God, I understand your pain. There are times when what we believe is confronted by factual evidence to the contrary, and it is very painful.
But God calls us to exercise discernment under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit. I challenge you to look at the evidence with an open mind, if not the evidence on this site, then the evidence of erroneous teaching. For example, I was looking at the Scripture that Gothard quotes in support of courtship as the only Biblical was to seek a spouse and life partner. None of the Scripture cited has anything to do with courtship, dating, or marriage. That doesn't mean courtship is wrong. It does mean that anyone who teaches it as the only way is wrong. There are numerous examples of this in IBLP materials. Because of this evidence, as well as evidence of brokenness in my family of origin (very strong IBLP/ATI adherents), I have concluded that Gothard's entire belief system needs serious re-evaluation. I hope and pray that those with eyes will see, and ears will hear.
Well spoken, Warrior of God!
Warrior,
Mr. Gothard's teachings are not God's teaching and they do NOT come directly from God. In II Corinthians 11, Paul said this by the Holy Spirit:
"I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
"7 Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. 11 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
"12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."
As to "principles" by which we find success, consider what Paul says in Galatians 3:
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
"7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
"10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
[I skip 15-22 for space] "23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."
In Phillipians 1, Paul explained how Christ was preached by some from selfish ambitions:
"15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."
And so, we know that some appear as angels of light, as apostles of Christ, as servants of righteousness who do mission, even preaching Christ for which we can rejoice; but they also preach another gospel and out of selfish ambition, even claiming to work for low wages like Paul (while accumulating millions in "ministry assets"). Believers can be taken in. The law is not of faith. All our promises come through Jesus, not through obeying the law. Nothing comes through obeying the law. The law ONLY condemns. We should teach the law, but as instructive of what righteousness looks like and what great atonement has been made for us. But there is no individual success in keeping the law (or Mr. Gothard's teachings).
Gal. 4 says: "8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain."
Finally, Colossians 2 says: "20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."
This passage gives the lie to Gothard's principles. Warrior, do not labor in vain. If the Spirit of God sets you free, you shall be free indeed.
Yes! to this article. Very well articulated. Thanks RG for engaging in this process -- all the messy and painful parts of dialogue w/ IBLP/ATI and BG. Thanks for continuing to post truth and share grace and healing with us. I am a former ATI student whose parents thankfully sent her to college and there I started my journey to independent thinking. This site 3 years ago helped deepen my thinking to start looking at my Pharisacal religion. Now, after returning rather broken from some challenging years, I found the site again and have been following since the beginning of the year. It has been painful, but I can now call it a cult and have gained even more freedom. I'm learning what it means to be a daughter of Christ and walk in relationship - not as a Pharisee.
Thank you for this. I was also bothered by his lack of fully owning up to his sins. It's kind of funny too. I have been to one of his conferences recently, and it seems that they are now teaching the opposite of what he is. They have one couple especially, the Speeds, who teach about Openness and Brokenness. He has had them speak countless numbers of times. They teach to openly acknowledge your sin, that that is the first step to freedom and true repentance. In speaking with them, I know that Mr. Gothard has also wanted to change the "perfection" face of ATI. I think in some ways his letter of apology was sincere in that he knows that he has been leading people down a pharisaical path and wants to change. However, he has NOT truly acknowledged his own sin; choosing rather to whitewash it yet again. I wanted to at first lump all of the people that speak at his conference in the same boat as him, but thinking back I can honestly say that what they taught was good! (The OTHER people speaking at the conference, not Mr. Gothard or ATI)We were helped and encouraged by much of it. They were sincere people with good messages not focused on legalism. When Mr. Gothard spoke though, my husband and I both looked at each other as if to say, "What is wrong with this man?" He is definitely off on a lot of things! I just don't want to lump all of the other good people that have spoken at conferences in with him. Some are, but others are sincere Christians who have been blinded by his lawyer-like explaining away all of their fears and cautions. He's really good at deceiving, as you know most of us reading this were at one time or the other deceived by him. Give it time, they will eventually see his errors.
There not mr. Gothards teachings, they are Gods teachings.
I have not grown up with ATI and God has taught me a lot of the same things.
If it was so wrong what he was doing then why did God answer my prayers and send me there?
Mr. Gothard had no idea that I had wanted to work there so bad, but The Lord opened the door for me to go.
I have read the testimonies and don't believe any of them.
Many girls were sent there to iblp by their parents when they didn't even want to go.
Anyone who is annoyed of their parents finding truth and applying it to their home would do anything to make their parents
believe the worst.
I have said what I needed to say.
The only way you will get the thruth is if you talk directly to mr. Gothard.
It is not our place to judge, so let's leave it to the real Judge.
Ps. My apologies for offending you!
"There not mr. Gothards teachings, they are Gods teachings."- not sure if you're referring to each and every teaching of Gothardism or just generally, but you're statement could use a little backing. To which teaching do you refer? Where is the biblical backing for defending it? On it's own your statement is ridiculous.
I find the credalism of Gothardists a bit confusing. Maybe my past anti confessional/creed stance was a product of my other fundamentalist influences and not Gothard, but the Gothardists seem to see the teachings of Gothard as their own creed.
Do you think that because you've had a positive experience no one else could have a negative one? What do you make of the 40 year history accounted for here? Fabrication?
I doubt you've offended anyone.
My apologies for offending you
they were not my intensions.
God bless you with wisdome.
@Warrior of God- when I said: "I doubt you've offended anyone." i was including myself in that. You have not offended me.
It would be really helpful to further the discussion and understanding if you'd explain some of your assertions about God's teachings, the assertion about disgruntled children, etc..
"There not mr. Gothards teachings, they are Gods teachings."
You do not realize it, but you have done something very dangerous, in placing Bill Gothard in the place of God. Bill Gothard is not God, and to say that his teachings = God's is absurd and demonstrates a lifting him up to a Godlike level, as so many followers do with Gothard.
His teachings are certainly his own teachings- teachings of a man, his own beliefs,unique to him. Many are debatable at best; many are clearly non-scriptural. The man has probably the poorest biblical hermeneutics you will find anywhere, as has been demonstrated ad-infinitum. Having such poor hermaneutics, his teaching veer very far indeed from God's truth.
I do not appreciate you judging me for putting mr. Gothard in the place of God.
You do not know my heart!
I believe in the one true God and don't praise or bowdown to any man.
What I am saying is the biblical teachings that Gothard teaches are from God.
He always has scripture to back up what he teaches.
Many people get this confused with mans teaching because they hear only what they want to hear.
"What I am saying is the biblical teachings that Gothard teaches are from God. He always has scripture to back up what he teaches."
Just because Gothard will list a scripture reference next to a teaching, does not mean that it applies. In fact, he is notorious for listing scriptures that do not prove or support his teachings. Just because he took the trouble to print them next to the teaching, does not mean that they apply:
[link removed by Moderator at author's request]
@Warrior: certainly SOME of what Bill taught is 'from GOD'. there are roughly 17K scripture verses in the book of mormon. is that book 'from GOD'. don't mean to be snarky here, but slow down, take a deep breath, and do some slow, careful, thinking here.
fwiw: some % of ANYONE's teaching is not from GOD; wise teachers know that to be true, and don't act like my stuff just came off of Mt. Sinai.
Greg,
You bring up a good point. Many of Gothard's teachings are biblical. The problem is the many are false, and the core teachings, Chain of Authority, Grace, are false.
Good point about the Mormons. They too have scriptural references for most of their teachings, and that does not make them true. We could say the same of Jehovah's Witnesses or Jim Jones and the People's Temple. Anyone can state a position and then print a scripture next to it. The question is, does the verse really prove that point and is it being used in context. We know that Gothard time after time uses verses that don't apply and/or are out of context.
@Kevin: preaching to the Kevin choir here, but it helps to 'major in the majors' , that is, know and understand the main themes of the bible, and who/why Jesus is. Add stuff to that framework: major themes like the Kingdom of GOD (yes, that one can get weird in a hurry...but still); the centrality of grace; the extremely limited function of the law; etc.
And you mentioned context: one of the many tragedies of the whole bill/IBLP thing is that he did not teach people how to approach the bible, how to really study it ON THEIR OWN. he gave them his pre-digested 'wisdom nuggets' and called that a meal. Not only did the flock get rancid, toxic, fish... they were not taught to go and catch their own, or how to test what it was they caught
Warrior,
I wanted to point out in regards to the youtube video I linked, it makes a somewhat humorous comment on how BG uses scriptures that don't necessarily apply, but I realized the moment that I posted it that it could offend, and I emailed RG moderators to delete the link. I am in no way suggesting that you or anyone else is a robot and sorry if it seemed like that was the implication.
This may be the greatest error in BG's approach: "He does the thinking for you!" All you do is fill in the lines. This is what cult leaders do--they think for you--and then give you new (and exciting) information that you have ever heard before. It is SO subtle. I experienced it big time in college with the Navigator campus ministry and the rep that ran it. They actually do your thinking for you and the if you do not agree you are singled out for shunning, discipline, etc. Satan truly does come to us as an angel of light. We must check everything out with scripture in context and with proper exegesis.
@ Guy
You are right. They actually give you all the answers. That's what we want. The Mormons are brilliant at it. What's the age of accountability....well lets say 8. Great, thanks for clearing that up. And that's how it's done.
Oh sweetheart, thank you for sharing your heart. I do believe that God answered your prayers and sent you there. I truly believed in ATI/IBLP with all my heart growing up, and God answered my prayer to get to serve with ATI in a couple different training centers over a few years (this was over 20 years ago!). But in the end, God was using the experience, not the actual teachings and ministry, to further my walk with Him. I do believe he uses *everything* we go through, both good and bad, for the good of those who love Him and want to follow him. Not all the girls who were harassed or abused hated being there. Several of them are my friends, and they believed in Gothard with all their heart. It wasn't until he "crossed physical boundary lines" with them (something he has admitted in his letter to doing) and he refused to stop when they asked him to that they stopped believing in him. His actions alone have caused this fall-out within his ministry. Something that he admits to.
It wasn't until I got out of the program that I began to realize how much bigger God is than IBLP/ATI! He is truly an amazing, wonderful, loving God, and I see how he used all my experiences for good, even though many of them were not good. But that's how it is with life. Not everything we encounter is "good," and yet God can and does use it for good in the lives of those who love him.
Many of the girls who were abused by Mr. Gothard have a deep love for the Lord, and a trust that he will yet bring good out of their abusive experiences. A lot of these girls are our sisters in Christ, and we can't dismiss them as unspiritual or ungodly because they happened to be abused. I know you probably don't intend to do this or come across this way, but dismissing them as rebellious or out to get Mr. Gothard is as far from the truth as possible. I wish you could meet them face-to-face and see the truth of this! You would be greatly encouraged to see their walks with the Lord.
"I wish you could meet them face-to-face and see the truth of this! You would be greatly encouraged to see their walks with the Lord."
Beverly,
I have no doubt that there would be many people, who have doubts, who would be convinced of the truth of their testimonies if they could meet them face to face. I hope that some of them feel encouraged to perhaps do an interview, even if on the radio, so that people can hear the voice behind their stories. I know that when the two RG team members did the radio interview, it was powerful for me. I never doubted their commitment or the honesty of their convictions, but hearing their voices on the radio really solidified it. You could really get a sense of their heart- there is just something about hearing a voice.
I've heard and read several Gothard supporters dismissing the testimonies as internet rumors, or suggesting that they are just rebellious children trying to get back at their parents. It is painful when I hear such attacks on these women, or challenges to their motives. It took such courage for them to come forward and tell their stories.
The doubters tend to get attention, but I'm certain that the overwhelming majority of people who have read their stories believe them. The sheer number of victims who have come forward speaks to the truth of their testimonies. Really, it is only those who are deep in the teachings that express these doubts, and I imagine that the women understand that this is to be expected, as many of them were once there. Still every time I hear one of the doubters sling their accusations I want to shout "Don't worry, I believe you! We believe you!"
YES! We believe you. Please remember that when the rude remarks are flung.
Second this. IBLP teaches people to assume the absolute worst about "the bad ones" (AKA victims!!!) and to look for reasons "God allowed" things to happen...and that's just not true.
These women are strong, brave and wonderful people who do have crowds and legions of supporters and witnesses to the authenticity of their faith, much less their hurt. Read the bios beneath their stories - many of them have families of their own, and all of them have *real lives* that they have been able to now enjoy with new freedom.
It takes so much strength of character to be able to share this kind of story about hurt and trauma with the world. Such heroes.
You say you don't believe any of the testimonies?? Warrior of God, what makes you so very sure? What makes you judge and jury!! Some of those girls DID want to go!!! They thought it was a major privilege!!! And anyway, even if they didn't want to go that is A LOT of girls who are making up lies about BG to get back at their parents. What you are saying is just simply ludicrous!!!
Thank you for this post!
Good choice of points. Your first point of concern is something I feel very strongly about, and I was glad to see you address it.
Excellent work as always, RG team.
Here's a thing that is sticking with me. In his statement, paragraph six, BG wrote:
'My actions of holding of hands, hugs, and touching of feet or hair with young ladies crossed the boundaries of discretion and were wrong. They demonstrated a double-standard and violated a trust. Because of the claims about me I do want to state that I have never kissed a girl nor have I touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent.'
First: 'My actions… with YOUNG LADIES crossed the boundaries.
Second: 'I have never kissed a GIRL nor have I touched a GIRL immorally or with sexual intent.'
He might just be choosing a different term to avoid repetition. However, I was in a conference session with BG once where he talked about how he goes over every word that he writes to make sure that the language is precise and says exactly what he means to say.
If the latter is a better description of what BG did in this statement, it should be read as: I did some minor creepy stuff with teenagers and women in their 20s, but relax because I am totally not a pedophile.
Of course, no one has seriously alleged that he is a pedophile and there is absolutely no evidence that he is one (I'm aware of), so this is a really safe denial to make.
Shout me down if I'm parsing things too finely.
Ephebophile is the correct term, not pedophile. Pedo's go for 12 and unders, Ephebs go for 15 and uppers. (Generally speaking.) Gothard had no love for children by all accounts, in spite of his encouraging folks to have them.
No, Jeff, I don't think you're overthinking this at all. I've been reading the book "Dealing with the Crazy Makers in Your Life" by Christian counselor David Hawkins, and Gothard's behavior - past and present - is indicative of what Hawkins and others would call a "control freak." On top of the my-way-or-the-highway mindset, even the subtlest use of words can function as a power play. This letter sounds promising on the surface, but any objective examiner would notice that he's basically apologized for actions that people on both sides of this conflict would already consider indisputable while wording his "confession" in such a way that he can still redefine his words to mean something completely different if need be.
"This letter sounds promising on the surface, but any objective examiner would notice that he's basically apologized for actions that people on both sides of this conflict would already consider indisputable while wording his "confession" in such a way that he can still redefine his words to mean something completely different if need be."
You're absolutely right JB. He is only acknowledging things which are indisputable, while denying those things for which there exists plausible deniability. It is clever. It is no accident. As much as he would love to deny it all, he would have zero credibility if he did so, based on the sheer number of victims and witnesses. I'm sure this had everything to do with why he waited on the statement, until the investigation could be completed. The investigation would have made it clear the things that can't be denied and those things which are he said/she said. It allows him to deny the he said/she said things, while acting as though he has humbled himself by acknowledging those things which can't be denied. Also, publishing the letter before the Board makes a statement, makes it appear as though he is making this statement independently. As if he tried to hold this back, as they requested, but he just couldn't hold it back any more. I would imagine that he was fully briefed on the report's findings before he made this statement. It all smells highly coordinated to me.
I think you are on the right track, here. I was focusing on the word "sexual", though. He does not deny touching "girls", just not in sexual, immoral ways. Your take seems correct, though. Thanks.
It's been a long time since I tried to think BG's thoughs after him, and I must say it's pretty tortured and painful to once again try.
@Jeff Gill - I agree that these words have been chosen very carefully. Do you suppose that he dismisses Charlotte as not being a girl because of her earlier abuse? That would allow him this weaseling.
Another psuedonym, I am.
Because of WHO we are dealing with, namely BG, it is wise to do so. We have serious issues here. And all is explained very clearly on this RG website. If you are unwilling to take the time and endure the emotional agony of reading the heart wrenching confessions of abuse, then you cannot understand the magnitude of this issue and the necessity of resolution.
If you are not willing to comprehend the hateful, self-promoting manipulating ways acted out by BG toward non-pretty girls who got in his way--because, in the end there is money plus the power, plus the sexual abuse, than you have not a legitamate leg to stand on.
What I learned in my wisdom booklets (burned, to date) is that the grand finale of those "wolves" that go after the innocent little sheep is sexual abuse. The sexual abuse comes after they have successfully obtained money and power through those innocent.
Currently I see the sick behavior of a sociopath. Narcissism.
It is making me quite sad.
Let's speak up for the victims. Let's be counted for justice.
I hear you, Betty.
Thank you for this article, Recovering Grace. This is a beautifully done website and an excellent response to Bill Gothard's statement. One think that I can't get out of my mind is where he claims that he, “has not touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent.”
He calls these women "girls." Think about that.
He does not deny touching these "girls," but somehow he convinced himself that there was no immoral or sexual intent.
Creepy. What is the root cause of a statement like that?
Dishonesty
It is dishonesty. I agree.
This is really disturbing. He blames things like a lack of love or insensitivity, but in my opinion, that is really not what made him touch young girls in sexual ways and then deny it. I guess dishonesty is the best answer. 1 John 1.
Scary.
Sin.
It's that simple. It's sin.
Alfred, we've spoken before, briefly (if you can call this "speaking").
I wonder now if perhaps you have a very dualistic, either "all good" or "all evil" view of life, and do not recognize the doctrine of "common grace." Are you familiar with common grace? Do you recognize it as taught overtly by Jesus Christ at the Sermon on the Mount, when He said that God makes the sun shine on the righteous and unrighteous alike, and that even evil people know how to give good gifts to their children? Do you recognize common grace when the Apostle Paul quotes pagan poets favorably to the Athenian philosophers in Acts 17, then later in his epistle(s).
This Biblical truth help us understand when God works to bless us through the actions of sinful people. It helps us avoid the dual errors of either rejecting the blessing ("God could never work that way!") or praising the source of the blessing as if God Himself is condoning evil. And, most importantly, common-grace truth helps us get past the absurd false dichotomy that you seem unable to see past: that if you see that Bill Gothard has been a moralistic dictator and false teacher, then you have to throw him out entirely (as Gothard himself has taught about evil Things) or despise how God used Gothard to bless your life. But where does this either/or notion come from? Certainly not Scripture. Our Creator foresaw a world in which He would receive the maxiumum amount of glory yet through sin and suffering, and yet He created it anyway. God works through "evil" means and apart from evil motivations.
Yes, clearly the Lord has blessed you through Gothard and even Gothard's teachings. So why refuse to face the possibility that there was any evil there for which Gothard must repent and face consequences? Reject the "either all evil or all good" dichotomy that Gothard himself promotes about other things. God can use an earthquake, a cancer, the death of a child, and even a serial sex-and-power abuser, for His glory and for our good. What book-of-Job-ignoring nonnsense is it for us to act like He can only bless us through overtly "good" things that we can't condemn?
What you're doing is exactly like professing Christians (many of them liberal) who insist that because they learned or were reminded of truth from a plain heretic, or secular R-rated movies with sex scenes, or any other clear source of evil, then that somehow "sanctifices" all the evil elements of this person or creative work, and therefore those who condemn those things are somehow sub-Christian and intolerant. Alfred, do you really want to be exactly in league with folks who would praise a clearly sinful source just because it happened to help them personally? Frankly that is both selfish and could show lack of empathy: "This person helped me, so I can't understand how anyone else could be different."
But even worse, it's not Biblical discernment. I'm sure the false teachers in Paul's day did plenty of good for the Galatian church. They may have given money to the poor, helped widows, fed the hungry. What nonsense is it to imply they must be clad in a black coak and twirling their mustaches to be declared evil! Rather, Satan himself appears as an angel of light. His servants appear as servants of righteousness and -- get this -- they actually do righteous things that help people. And yet their beliefs about Jesus Christ and actions toward the vulnerable betray that their motives are, at absolute best, hideously mixed. Do you recognize this about human nature, brother? Do you leave any place for "evil people can still do good things" as the doctrine of common grace would require?
Moreover, you seem to hold that your view of "forgiveness" is a very high and Biblical one, while folks at RG are stuck on some other attitude. But I leave you with this: "forgiveness" of someone that refuses to recognize and challenge patterns sin seems like grace but is actually cheap grace -- it is a grace-imposter. Let me put it more plainly: God does not and will not ever forgive people who never repent of their sin. You yourself mentioned that people will either go to Heaven (quick qualifier: and then they go to the New Earth) for eternity, or else Hell. Hell is not full of those God has forgiven. They instead bear His wrath for eternity. They are not forgiven. If they had repented, they would have been. So it is not a more-spiritual and higher practice to "forgive" someone who hasn't repented. That's not love. It's not Biblical discernment or Biblical forgiveness. It's a forgiveness-imposter.
Combined with the lack of applying common grace, yours a perspective that could say, "If you help me personally or help my family, I will never say anything bad against you. I will ignore the cause of righteous justice on behalf of those wronged. I may even gently challenge those who are saying bad things against you. In effect, I can be bribed." And what does the Word say about those who show partiality and accept bribes?
Strong words, I know. But by now I'm sure you're used to them from RG readers. The fact that you're still here means that you suspect something is up and that you are, deep down, open to hearing about it and having your own beliefs challenged. Here is where you benefit from this, Alfred: folks who believe in common grace also apply it to you personally and your comments here. Folks here surely have their own sins, but they do not hold the IBLP either/or view of sinful Things. They see that some people, as well as Things, can be mixtures of right and wrong. They see that God can work through sinful people to accomplish great things. And they see that He can only do this through the matchless grace of Jesus Christ the Righteous, the One Who shows favor before someone ever cares to follow Him and whose righteousness alone can motivate our own.
@Burnett. Thanks for such a kind well thought out comment. Very good stuff to consider. Bless you.
Stephen,
I wholeheartedly agree and couldn't have said it any better. Part of the mindset I've caught myself carrying over half my life has included this sort of "false dichotomy" approach to everything and everyone, and it can easily be traced back to a childhood filled with true/false quizzes from Wisdom Booklets in which there were two options: one right and one wrong. As I grew older, I found myself instinctively building people up, only to stop listening to them and quietly push them away whenever they said one thing with which I disagreed. But people are so much more than the shortcomings, talents, idiosyncrasies, strengths, and yes - even opinions - we see on the surface. I may disagree with many, but I still want to get to know them and their story, even if I may not always be the most abundant fountain of grace.
Even after I left IBLP, I would often find myself in situations where I'd be overly concerned with trying to get everything right. One of my friends stopped me dead in my tracks when she said, "You know, in the end, I think it all comes down to knowing Christ." It suddenly dawned on me. In that context, sin and even "godly" pursuits done for wrong reasons are idols that can never satisfy next to the awesomeness of knowing the Creator of the Universe. It's been a long journey, but I'm beginning to come to the very conclusion that you've mentioned here, Stephen: that God's grace is extended to us even when we don't have all the answers. I'm still learning and overcoming my baser instincts, but it's so much more freeing to look at another person as a fellow immortal soul God has fashioned who is much more than simply "all right" or "all wrong." And who knows - I might even learn from them too.
I think Jon Foreman of the band Switchfoot said it best:
"In the arts, diversity is what gives us our color and spice -- it's the differences and the contrasts that make our world beautiful. Why wouldn't we celebrate our differences? Why wouldn't we learn from each other, letting the strengths of others enlighten our weaknesses? Maybe we're afraid. Maybe we've been wounded in the past and we fear more of the same. Maybe we question our own worth. If we find others who have more to offer, we begin to doubt our own purpose in the conversation. We begin to doubt our convictions and meaning in life. What if we made a mistake? What if we were wrong? We all have those fears from time to time. I know I do. In fact, I usually yell the loudest when I'm unsure about something. I have never been in a screaming match about a mathematical sum. Not since the days of Pythagorus has there been an argument in the kitchen about the facts of long division. No, we yell about the intangible, subjective stuff that makes us feel insecure. We yell about politics. We yell about God. But God isn't yelling. God seems pretty sure of himself. It's the rest of us that are in question."
Stephan and J. B. I appreciate both of your posts. Love Switchfoot!
J. B. you make me think of
Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
He has determined our time and place in history. He placed us at the best spot possible for us to search for Him and find Him.
Which means at this point in time and space my weak points will be another's strength, and I can learn from their understanding. Yet I might have understanding in a different area that might help them where THEY (not me) find themselves lacking. If we stop competing and wanting to be the "best" maybe we would find the Best (a Christlike Love) in one another.
Once again, thank you two for your input.
This is a great explanation of common grace and how it differs from a dualistic viewpoint. It really helps me understand how God-fearing men and women can rise up to defend/excuse the immoral actions of Mr. Gothard. Thanks, Stephen, for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.
Excellent insights, Stephen.
If Alfred's been imbibing IBLP teaching, he's going to be more than a little confused about the real meaning and implications of the Scriptures because Bill Gothard is a false teacher, who twists the Scriptures.
Further, from what I am reading, Gothard's m.o. fits the profile of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. One of the traits of someone with this disorder is that they are very sensitive to social cues (they read people well) and are consummate actors. They like to be viewed as the rescuer and the hero, and if they can play that role with you, they can really charm. They will tell you exactly what you want and expect to hear. I fear this is what has happened with folks like Alfred and his family. Folks that serve the abuser's purpose never see the sordid underbelly of this beast until and unless they no longer serve the narcissist's purpose (of making them look like a hero).
Some good material for discernment on this topic starts here:
http://dory.typepad.com/wittenberg_gate/2005/05/controlling_per.html
It amazes me that anyone could dismiss a 60 plus year olds man's behavior of the things Bill Gothard is accused of and has admitted to...I have two daughters (Alfred, do you have daughters?) and if a 60 year old man...don't care who..caressed their hair just once...slipped off his shoes and touched their feet with his, or did any of those things in the minutest, purposeful measure, I would want it reported, made right and brought in the open to protect others. Why or how can that be dismissed as okay? If my husband, being 60 years old now....did that to a young girl...no matter how close that girl was to our family...not okay!!! Of course Bill Gothard seems like the godliest of men...how would so many be drawn to his ministry but I encourage those of you who dismiss this behavior to read the article http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/70575174/how-chad-curtis-went-from-hero-to-convict-for-sexual-misconduct posted under "How could this happen here?" For perspective on how those closest to a perpretrator don't believe it and the persecution that ensues on those who report....please remember that "Charlotte" was so damaged and confused that she married a 60 year old man?(something like that) after she left the institute...what a wonderful thing that God is putting her life back together and I pray the same for all those young women who were taken advantage of. Thank you RG for the excellent job you are doing. It's not okay to accept or dismiss obvious sexual type advances as though the man doing it is different than any other man God created. This is not a witch hunt...it's hidden things needing light.
I am so frustrated with the use of the word “alleged” with respect to the accusations of misconduct lodged against Bill Gothard. As Christians, we are called to judge the fruit of other Christians and render a decision. Unlike those reported to bring lawsuits against Christian brothers to the courts, let us judge for ourselves. Are we really going to just suspend thinking about the “allegations” until a court of law in the United States renders a verdict? For Bill’s conduct in a ministry that teaches that we are to have a higher standard of conduct and even designed ministries to teach “the world” this higher standard??? We are capable of hearing both sides and deciding, unless we are mindless robots, led by one who would think for us. So, which are you?
Any lawyer will testify that one of the hardest cases to prosecute is sexual assault/misconduct. It nearly always happens without any witness other than the accuser and the defendant, so it is a one person’s word versus another scenario time and time again. Even juries who KNOW a defendant is guilty have been unable to convict because of the lack of solid evidence. With the sheer number of reports by victims and witnesses, we should be able to determine a pattern of behavior by BG. (I was told of conduct similar to that reported multiple times on RG by my daughter, who heard directly from a recent intern of Bill’s treatment of her, prior to the public revelations on RG. Incidentally, she was very transparent, because she did not feel “harassed” but instead it made her feel ‘special’. She wore it like a badge of honor to justify her higher status in Christiandom.) If we are being asked, as Christians, to decide not if what BG did was illegal according to the US and state laws, but rather if he is “above reproach,” then why are we holier if we refuse to render a judgment? Because that is what I hear each time someone uses the word, “alleged.”
“It is up to the courts to decide, not me.” *abdicates with shrug*
WHAT?????
Funny, we were gung-ho on telling everyone about this great ministry, persuading them to go to a Basic Seminar, join ATI, and attend Family Camp. But now, we don’t want anyone to know that the leader of the ministry we once revered is having his morality questioned? Grab the soap, like Pontius Pilate and wash your hands. Put Bill back at the head of IBLP if you want. After all, the people chose Saul and Barabbas. You must be right.
MRD,
Very well put and I totally agree. We have heard enough and Bill has had a chance to respond. The amount of information out there regarding this far exceeds that which is typically presented to a jury. There is no reason why we can't make our decisions about what we believe really occurred.
"she was very transparent, because she did not feel “harassed” but instead it made her feel ‘special’. She wore it like a badge of honor to justify her higher status in Christiandom"
This really makes me wonder, just how many victims are there? 50 women have contacted RG and reported being harassed and/or sexually abused. But, how many did not feel comfortable telling anyone? And how many felt, like this girl you speak of, wearing the affection like a badge of honor? There could easily be well over 100 victims we are talking about. She feels it is like a badge of honor now, I wonder if she will feel that way 10 or 20 years from now. It can take a long time for people to process the things that happened to them when they were young and naive, perhaps not fully realizing how they are being used until they are more mature, especially those living in the sheltered world that Gothard encouraged and fostered.
@ MRD: You are apparently questioning the use of the term “alleged.” And you imply that using the term “alleged” means we are sitting on the fence, and unable to make up our minds as to Bill Gothard’s misconduct?
Of course, you can believe anything you want. But you need to be very careful when you make statements that accuse someone of something. You could be sued for making slanderous or libelous statements.
Using the word “alleged” affords some protection. It implies that the allegations have not been proven in a court of law.
In the context of a slanderous or libelous statement, sometimes the TRUTH is a defense. But this is not always the case. If the slanderous statement was made with MALICE, then the truth is not a defense. And then, of course, there is “slander per se.” (You can Google that if you don’t know what that is.)
I have handled numerous lawsuits pertaining to slander and libel, and so I believe using the word “alleged” is prudent. I am not suggesting anyone is going to sue anybody, but I just wanted to throw my two cents worth in pertaining to your comment.
Clayton, now that you have given your legal counsel, let me ask you what your individual judgment would be if BG offered your 18 year old daughter a job in his office? I think that is the judgment to which we are called as believers in light of his admissions to serial inappropriate behavior.
http://www.redletterchristians.org/evangelical-church-called-a-cult/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RedLetterChristians+%28Red+Letter+Christians%29
I am new to all of this--having found out about BG just a few days ago. However, having read much from this new site, a few things are now certain in my mind:
1. I would NEVER have any of my 5 daughters (or 3 sons) around BG or any organization he ran. These "innocent" footsies and suggestive body contacts would have induced a punch in the eye if I were there. Why was he not disciplined or even prosecuted for this SH?
2. The sexual harassment allegations from 34 girls is just too overwhelming. It seems this single man could not control himself and acted in a perverted way, and is now trying to protect his own skin from legal prosecution (perhaps).
3. Dr Ron Allen's critique of him is just devastating. He lied to him and he has lied to others to protect "his" ministry from any hint of scandal.
4. We must be ultra careful with Christian leaders who are unaccountable and unapproachable. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up (1COR 8:1). I have been a pastor for over 25 years, in good standing with my own church and denomination (Nazarene). This is ONLY by the grace of God in staying accountable and approachable and by seeking God as a wretched sinner without hope except for God's love in Christ (and the love of a good woman).
5. Male Christian leaders should be married and NEVER have young women around them alone! I never meet with young women alone, and I take precautions to guard my heart and mind from temptation (internet, etc.). BG did not do this, the power of the flesh is just too strong, and it overcomes our best intentions nearly every time (Mark 14:38).
6. I will take the good I learned from IBLP and eschew the bad. BG has disqualified himself from any leadership in any ministry, but many of his teachings had benefit. We must all be like Bereans and check everything with scripture, and never put that much power in one man's hands. We are all fallible and wretched. We really do need each other in Christ.
Did you click on the blue link in this article and find the open letter to the Leadership of IBLP? In it is a very interesting paper concerning the teachings of IBLP written by Jervin Teng Lai Lim Pastor, (Singapore)
Here is the link to the Ordination Paper
http://www.midwestoutreach.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/IBLP-Paper-Public.pdf
I like your list well enough, but #5 needs some help. it is the same error the catholic church makes in reverse. Just as priests/leaders should not be forced to be celibate, neither should they be required to be married. Paul has a high view of BOTH marriage and singleness. As one who married at 40, I do see that it is a gift for a few. good post, though.
Great Job RG! Full of grace, yet truthful. Much better than my interpretation which is-
"My entire life and ministry is a sham.I said I loved Jesus, but I didn't. I said I wanted the best for you, but I wanted the best for me and to look good." Somewhere in the middle it changes though. "I feel sad that people who did what I said experienced hurt. If you had understood what I was trying to do it would be ok. But nobody is perfect. We all just need to work harder and it will be ok."
Glad you guys are here! Painful but necessary.
Thank you, Nancy. I just recently logged on to this great site so I am new, but what I am finding out is what I suspected years ago (and it is why I never did ATI or anything else with the Institute). My heart goes out to so many who have been abused by this pseudo-ministry, especially the sexual liberties that BG is denying. I just hope he truly repents of this, because his letter of "admission" is bogus without true repentance.
Very well done, RG. Yes. One of the questions I have is about the first sentence that states something about the board had asked Bill to withhold comment until after the inveetigation, but then states something like while they are continuing the investigation he will go ahead with his statement. It seems there is an authority violation here again.
I agree with other's comments that Bill is taking pieces of responsibility for his wrong, but it appears he is very specifically continuing to blame those whom he has wounded.
I so earnestly have been praying for a concise,pure and clear confession and repentance of his sins. I don't sense that in this statement, nor do I hear him addressing these issues as sin on his part...Concerns me deeply.
I wonder--did the board actually approve this statement. It just felt so unbelievable that a board of men could approve that the nature of the physical contact Bill admitted to would not be of sexual intent. I am an aging woman and I don't believe ever in all my years have I met a man who could have this kind of interaction with girls without sexual intent.
As a sexually abused young girl--now an older woman, myself, I have been an advocate for sexually abused women through counseling and speaking for many years. I struggle to grasp these violations toward these many young girls are taken so lightly by Bill and the board. I'm actually mostly horrified by it. Again, I pray so, so earnestly that true repentance would clearly be felt and made. Actually all of this makes my heart ache extremely deeply. The depth and length and breadth of what all has been done by a very conservative spiritual leader whom so very many have followed is painful beyond words.
I long for Bill and all involved to find healing, forgiveness and grace through the perfect love and cleansing blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.
Bill is a great speaker and a lot of what he taught has helped me but the ATI program we did not do because it looked to us back in the 80s that it would not prepare our children for the future. Bill is not an educator for children and it shows because all one has to do
is read the posts on this website. For many of the ATI children public education would have
been a far better choice for parents to make and their children would have been better prepared for jobs and know how to survive in the market place. Bill needs to confess this and know how unprepared the ATI children were and are in getting jobs and living in the world. Bill sold a car without wheels. You can not get very far and very fast riding on the rims and it is very bumpy ride.
I believe BG comments were a start but they do not go far enough. The gravity of situation I believe is not fully realized especially since girls were "defrauded" and sexually harassed. Do I believe that BG wants to get back to the IBLP? No. I know a lot about him and have already seen consequences for his actions that have changed his life immensely. I speak as one who is very close to the IBLP and yet has developed my life apart from it. Did IBLP/ATI affect me personally? Yes. but also I was given freedom from my parents to choose a different path. I believe the breaking process has begun but it is not over yet. My only hope is that one day he will remove all the Scriptural trappings and realize the full extent of his sin.
RG Team,
Excellent job! Very well thought out, well written and balanced.
Thank you for all your efforts. You are very much appreciated!
Gothord can not live out his own teaching. That really shows something wrong with his theology.
One of his wrong theologies is his view of Spirit, Soul , and Body. He separates Spirit from the rest two, and despises intellectual ability, emotions, rarely does he mention exercises (related to body). Instead of looking upon these as our comrades to grow (or transform)into spiritual, they were demonized by his theology. While in ATI program, I was taught any secular movies, news, even government authority (Human system) were against God. I felt guilty, when I failed to 'protect' my children from those influences.
It was God's intervention 11 years ago (2003) when I was laid off, and had to give up ATI program. (Only time can tell what is God's plan for you, not if you feel it is good at the moment).
For the past 10 years, God had given me freedom to read, have fellowship, and engage in many activities which really broadened my mind. I had the chance to read the books of great thinkers, like CS Lewis, Owen Barfield, Hegel, Kant, etc. I was able to enjoy great movies like Les Miserables which depicts beautifully the conflict between law and grace by two characters. I really enjoyed watching NBA games with my son, discussing sportsmanship. I even took my family to watch Hunger Game, debating what's wrong with state controlled government.
I did not blame Gothord for all missed years, because I remembered the first time I attended IBLP back in 1990 how I was moved by the chorus of three thousand people in the congregation (Trust and Obey, I surrender all, etc). I thought heaven must be like this (Revelation 4). As a new born-again Christian then , I hungered, and swallowed up everything he taught.
Until several years ago, I would still mention IBLP in my testimony when I shared gospel with people, but not any more, since I knew what happened in 1980.
I had read books or articles which show people's true repentance, but I did not sense that in Gothord's statement. I pray that Gothord would know God's authority and mercy. Jesus is the Lord that everyone needs. It is a pity that Gothod spent all his life in Christian ministry, but got lost at the end.
I just have to comment. Do YOU live out your own theology, Joshua? I would be amazed to find someone who would say they are . . . but am am open.
Eliminating IBLP out of your testimony is the root cause why this site is crawling with agnostics and atheists. When what we perceive to be God turns out to not be God, it throws everything into question. Unless . . . unless it really is God, and He uses and honors imperfect vessels. That sounds familiar . . .
Based on that logic we all stop quoting Psalms and Proverbs and Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon based on the failures of the authors. We don't, Jesus didn't. Guys that ended up in the "Hall of Fame" in Hebrews 11 . . . one, at least, that committed far worse and more overt crimes than Bill is even accused of.
@Alfred: you've got a few good observations here, and the wrong conclusions. One very big reason (certainly not the only reason) that there are so many disillusioned here , some of whom become agnostic or atheist, is because of the types of errors in teaching Bill made.
Joshua very perceptively picks up on some of these.
I won't make this post a novella, but Bill's anthropology is as bad , or worse, than his christology. His excesses push people into thinking (falsely) that it's either his distorted view of all things physical and/or secular. Of course , there are MANY better theologies out there that make room for the physical, the wisdom to be gained from even nonchristian sources, and much else.
It might be awhile before the disillusioned find there way to better waters. that's understandable: now is the time to help them, not demonize them
No atheist or agnostic here, Alfred. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I could give you the evangelical version of Paul's ""I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today."
"Based on that logic we all stop quoting Psalms and Proverbs and Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon based on the failures of the authors."
Did you seriously just compare IBLP's teachings to the Word. Of. God? Rejecting them is NOTHING like rejecting books of the Bible. Nothing. But it says alot about your elevation of them to the level of Scripture.
"Guys that ended up in the "Hall of Fame" in Hebrews 11 . . . one, at least, that committed far worse and more overt crimes than Bill is even accused of."
Here, as in your previous "God bends the rules" discussion, you're coming perilously close to a 'sin doesn't matter' argument. Careful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8CB_aEKnY
Great portrayal of Alfred's attempt to defend Bill
Alfred, just one comment, and I hope you understand what I am saying. The point of Biblical theology is that Jesus Christ, our Savior, Emmanuel, God with Us, lived up to His theology.
Why not try this? Take an extended fast from Gothardism and focus on the Gospels. Pay special attention to what Jesus points out as the "root cause" of a person's sinful behavior.
Besides, I'm not sure that Hebrews 11 is a Hall of Fame. It's a Hall of Faith. The glory is all God's. The concept of "glory", especially in the OT, is that of fame, and the glory is all God's. God is the Famous One.
You mean make JESUS and HIS reign the big deal ?? upstart radical....
Yes! Greg, yes
Oops. ! Even read Hebrews 11 in context and fill in the blank:
Jesus is greater than ______________________, etc.
A read of John Owens' commentary might be a good place to go after reading the book of Hebrews a whole bunch of times.
@Alfred: if you are listening...Mrs Webfoot's summary phrase of Hebrews is really the point: the book is summed up with "Jesus is better than.." that's the gist of the whole book, not how to be a super-duper faith weilding ultra-saint
Yes, a read of Jon Owens' commentary would be helpful
@Jon- Well played.
Those "guys that ended up in the hall of fame" had one major quality differentiating them from Gothard...their hearts were shattered by true repentance.
They saw their sins as sins.
(Also, they didn't have legions of followers around which to build a spiritual/economic empire, dictating lifestyle choices based off of Levitical laws)
No agnostic or atheist here either, Alfred. I think you're absolutely right when you say that "when what we perceive to be God turns out to not be God, it throws everything into question." That's why there are many people searching for answers here, but they need to be heard, understood, and loved as they walk through this valley, not shot down just because they don't know Christ and ultimately discouraged from getting to know Him. They're not here because they've "eliminated IBLP from [their] testimony." They're here because IBLP has eliminated the joy that comes from a personal relationship with Christ.
You're also correct when you mention that God uses imperfect vessels to accomplish His will. I'm really glad you've come to the point where you're willing to recognize that Gothard has erred in his interaction with people, but your latest "no one is perfect" comments come across as a desperate attempt at justifying that Gothard is still fit for ministry, that he can and should rebuild IBLP, and the very theology he has propagated isn't in fact a major contributing factor to the abusive culture that has brought us to where we are now. All of these notions are patently untrue, and I shouldn't have to explain why after the countless testimonies and well-reasoned comments from people who have tried to reach out to you. Yet you continue to find some way to justify IBLP carrying on, even to the extent that you claim "God hasn't spoken yet," even though God is actively speaking through the many broken, shattered lives that IBLP and Gothard have left in their wake.
If what Gothard believed to be God really is God, then where does that leave all the fruitful believers - past and present - who have managed to get along just fine without Gothardism and still believed the Bible and sought the truth? You mentioned in a previous comment something to the extent that you "feel safer with IBLP than without it." Is this really what this is about, Alfred? Do you cling to Gothard for security - because you feel that without the principles of IBLP, you would be inferior as a believer?
The moment we start comparing ourselves to others as Christians and not view Christ as enough, the moment the enemy gains a foothold in our lives.
Yeah, I don't know about 'crawling with agnostics and atheists', there is a really good mix of Christians from various denominations, and non-Christians of equally various persuasions. I genuinely don't think Alfred meant it this way, but he kinda made it sound as if there are almost no Christian voices here.
Welcome everyone, Christian, atheist, and everyone in between. If Bill Gothard had any influence on your life, your voice is welcome regardless of what you now believe, as that is what this site is for, even though it's run by Christians.
"even to the extent that you claim "God hasn't spoken yet," even though God is actively speaking through the many broken, shattered lives that IBLP and Gothard have left in their wake. "
Amen! God has been speaking loud and clear, as he removed Bill Gothard from power and as he is exposing the darkness of IBLP to the light of day. The world now knows the truth about the extreme abuses of IBLP, and God is certainly in that exposure. Some will choose not so hear and not so see, but he's turning over the tables all over the institute right now.
@Alfred
I almost choked on my lunch. Two points.
1. Joshua, how can you blame Bill for not living out his own theology.....none of us do!!!! (really, seriously?) What I am reminded of is how Bill showed little or no grace to those who broke "HIS" rules. Sent home and punished in a second and without warning or a chance for restitution or forgiveness. You hold Bill up on one hand as pure as the wind driven snow and on the other hand, well none of us live out their own theology, so.
2. The real doosie. This site is "crawling" with agnostics and atheist. I am the only one that I have seen that has openly admitted my position since I have been following RG closely since January. This site is actually crawling with balanced christians who have a healthy approach to the scriptures. You should open your ears and listen to them. Many very intelligent, thoughtful, balanced people with real convictions and for the most part you brush them off in your attempt to hold up Bill as Simba. I know it blows your mind that I could be agnostic and not be out killing people, robbing banks or heaven forbid having a drink with a gay friend.
3. Wait another point. Because someone doesn't believe in "God" or shall I say your God their opinion is worthless? Let me say, I have read a decent size sampling of your comments. You may be the only one alive who believes in the "God" you have created in your own head.
I hope you allow your kids and wife to read this site.
" I know it blows your mind that I could be agnostic and not be out killing people, robbing banks or heaven forbid having a drink with a gay friend. "
Lol, very funny.
Ryan, I had the same reaction that you did to his post. No, the site is not crawling with agnostics and atheists, hello! BTW, I'm one of those well balances Christians here that you refer to. Okay, maybe not so well balanced. :)
Before you dismiss the lament you may want to clarify the definition of "atheist" and "agnostics". I suspect Alfred did not mean to imply this, but his statement is that to remove IBLP from one's testimony just may be removing God from one's testimony. So he either swerves very close to or is in fact saying that to forsake IBLP just may be forsaking God, which, if true, would make me an atheist.
@Shane, I think since you were once influenced by IBLP you might be an agnostic. I on the other hand thought it was nonsense from the beginning and that makes me an atheist. But with Bill being greater than King David who was greater than Solomon, yet less than Paul who was greater than Timothy and maybe equal to Peter I don't think I mind my lowly standing in Alfred's mind. Pride is competitive in nature. Not surprised those following Gothard have created a caste system to judge other's hearts.
Today is another great blessing. The flames of Hell are not licking my ankles because of God's great mercy and love shown through His Son. I'm going for a walk in the woods and watch the squirrels play. Because of injuries I haven't been able to walk much in months. New support sleeves came in and I'm finally able to do more. A lot to be thankful for.
Have a blessed day everyone.
@nancy2: may HE make your feet like hinds feet, set upon the high places...
Nancy2- have a great walk! I pray as you walk you feel God's pleasure.
@Nancy2: where I live in KC, it is low 70's and just gorgeous outside (where I am NOT working...) so YES, I DO have a bitterness problem, here...
"(where I am NOT working...)" will be praying for this greg r.
We lost our business in 2009, and job in 2010. It was tough, but prayers were answered and we started recovering in 2011. If it isn't too personal to ask what line of work?
Hi, Alfred,
I think Recovering Grace is doing a good job helping those who have been hurt by IBLP/ATI. It is not Recovering Grace, though, that convinced me Gothard is wrong.
I have left the program for 10 years, and did not pay much attention to what's happening to it (you can tell by the fact that I even misspelled Bill's last name), util two months ago.
Long story short, my friend (a brother in Christ)who had been involved with ATI the same time I did, and remains in the program (his four kids read WB through middle/high school years, and went to Verity after that) since 2000.
His daughter, now in a professional graduate school after Verity, told my daughter , now in medical school, about two months ago, that Bill Gothard was accused of sexual harassment.
My daughter told me about this;I searched for related news in the internet, and that is how I found Recovering Grace.
I am concerned about my friend's youngest daughter who is still in Verity.
You have your reason to attend IBLP/ATI, just like me and my friend. However, we never equate Gothard's program with God's Kingdom.
God's people are not defined by what they wear, or certain groups' standard behaviors. That is what cult does to its peolpe.
I respect your choice, but I will never go back to any of Gothard's ways which are erroneous in many areas.
The more I read (both Christian and non-Christian books), the broader experiences I have (church, family , and work), the more I am convinced Jesus is the only way. The first Adam is a living being, and He is the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit (1 Corinthian 15:45).He is fully God, and fully Man. God the Father wants every one to be like Him in whom the Father is well pleased.
Abandon the rule-based teaching, and use every ounces of your resources to grow to be like Him.
@Joshua "For the past 10 years, God had given me freedom to read, have fellowship, and engage in many activities which really broadened my mind. I had the chance to read the books of great thinkers, like CS Lewis, Owen Barfield, Hegel, Kant, etc. I was able to enjoy great movies like Les Miserables which depicts beautifully the conflict between law and grace by two characters. I really enjoyed watching NBA games with my son, discussing sportsmanship. I even took my family to watch Hunger Game, debating what's wrong with state controlled government."
It is wonderful that you have a relationship with your Savior that allows a broad appreciation of the world we find ourselves in. This is part of why IBLP never appealed to me. It assumes immaturity on the part of those it hopes to impact. I'm not afraid of different world views, because Christ Jesus is my filter. Whether it is reading the existentialism of Kierkegaard or the despair of Camus, all is placed under the knowledge of what it means to know and love the One who lived, died, and was resurrected.
I saw nothing in IBLP that allowed a mature mind freedom.
Good point. A characteristic of a spiritually abusive leader/organization is denial of the freedom of individuals as believer-priests.
I agree with Donna. Bill, by making a statement outside of his authority structure is actually being rebellious. By his own terms.
I can't but think of all those who likely received even more abuse when even as they "cried out" to BG, found no shelter of protection or defense. My heart grieves.
Praying that our God would supply healing balm to the painful wounds of the soul and heart that has afflicted many of you.
"As much as we at Recovering Grace would like to accept Gothard’s statement in good faith" Recovering Grace??????? It seems grace is lost in the bitter desire for revenge by most of those posting here. Of course it will be denied, guilty or not, I can only wonder if Bill confessed to everything he is accused of and used the exact wording you desire, then went out and hung himself, would any of you be satisfied. Which ones of us do not need mercy? If the new leadership of IBLP literally crucified Bill Gothard in public would it appease recovering grace. The tone of most of the posts "SEEM" to lack compassion but then I know none of you personally. I will be praying for each of you as well as Bill Gothard and those who remain at IBLP and include a cry for mercy and grace for myself. I do not know the accused but have someone very close to me who was falsely accused (it may turn out Mr. Gothard has not been "falsely" accused and may be guilty of all allegations)and have experience the pain that caused, but God has granted me the freedom and desire to pray for their false accusers and realize that desire and freedom only comes from God's grace. I pray one day each of you will find freedom from any malice or desire for revenge if that exists in our hearts.
by grace alone,
Jerry
It may turn out you've falsely accused folks here of bitterness and anger and wishing Mr. Gothard dead. Not to mention that it may turn out that the host of people on here who worked for, with, and actually feel affection for the man Bill Gothard, are actually grieved by his actions and at best slowness to acknowledge and repent, and have told their experiences truthfully. It may turn out the people on here have honest disagreement about Gothardism and are not acting in bitterness with a personal vendetta. But hey you're the judge here I guess I'll let you decide
Hi Jerry. Just suppose that someone slaps you in the face. They apologize, you forgive them, and they turn around and slap you again. They apologize, you forgive them, they slap you again, you forgive them.. At some point, sooner or later, you will confront them and demand to know what's going on. They might respond with, 'But you need to forgive meeeeee! What I'm doing isn't so bad, I didn't kill you or anything!!!' You would probably respond with, 'I do and will forgive you, but you aren't stopping, and you don't seem to be truly sorry, or you'd stop! I'm staying away from you, you stay away from me!'
This person keeps pursuing you with apologies, but you've had enough. You've been 'burned'. You know better by now than to trust them. It has nothing to do with lack of forgiveness or revenge on your part, you can see this person hasn't truly changed, because they keep slapping others and offering a half-hearted apology.
Please forgive the overly simplistic explanation, but it's a pretty good explanation, and this seemingly 'ungracious/vengeful/judgmental' response(s) you see, doesn't come from the place you think it does.
You could always just take what Recovering Grace says as being the truth, they DO want to accept it, but can't for good reasons. You seem willing to accept Gothard's apology as legit, why not Recovering Grace's reasons?
You've described interacting with a narcissist pretty accurately, Megan! A endless series of offenses and claims of repentance, followed by demands for forgiveness because it's still all about them. This behavior is plain garden-variety narcissism, just couched in Christian terms.
The operative Biblical principal at that point is prudence, as in Proverbs 22:3.
A prudent man foresees the evil, and hides himself: but the simple pass on (i.e. continue on), and are punished.
The serial offender's 'repentance' remains between s/he and God, but we don't need to stick around for their repentance to happen. We are instructed to remove ourselves from their behavior.
Excellent illustration!
Jerry,
I can't speak for every commenter on here, but the approach that the leadership / website administrators of Recovering Grace have taken in their attempts to reach out to Gothard has definitely been Biblical, carefully considered, and filled with both grace and truth. However, they are not responsible for how the commenters on this website feel, nor are the commenters always capable of dismissing the abusive pasts they may have experienced with IBLP / Gothard and immediately moving on. I don't think there is anyone here who would want to see Gothard "literally crucified," but from what I can gather, the hope is that he will be genuinely repentent - not just offering apologies for certain transgressions in such a way that he can still hold on to his status as a spiritual guru. Please understand that there are many here who are hurting. Genuinely hurting. Some of them are still upset and are healing right now, and they need space to participate in that process without being place under the microscope.
Jerry, it now appears that most of us were taught by a man who, whenever an abuse situation was brought to him, appears to have told the victim that they were partly responsible for their abuse. If the teacher so lacked compassion, why do you demand it from those he taught? Some of Gothard's defenders on this site have expressed NO compassion or sympathy for those who have had the courage to accuse him openly. I admit to a mix of anger, frustration, discouragement along with compassion, grief, mourning and hopefulness in following these discussions. I rejoice in the victory that so many victims have found in Godly marriages and Christ-filled lives.
I do not read true repentance in the letter. As such, I cannot let compassion, or favoritism cloud my judgment. The "board" cannot judge him, they are supporters handpicked by Gothard for their loyalty and friendship. The board should publish ALL the truth and let the church judge.
Jesus had compassion on the rich young ruler but he did not release him from the truth that alienated him from salvation. This man asserts that the "Institute" got between him and Christ, but is he ready to give up the Institute to regain Christ? This man admits that he is not above reproach, but does not confess that he is not qualified for spiritual leadership in any ministry. I guess that confession is the best that I am hoping to hear from him. If Gothard is qualified to lead, then there truly are NO standards and all his principles are dust. Maybe that is God's point in all this. With a heart hardened like Pharaoh, he clings to his position (he has not given up his quest to lead) and we can be certain that he is a false teacher. Logic is scary isn't it? Who shall deliver us from this body of sin??
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Thank you RG for bringing up the confusion that us purity movement girls experienced.
It wasn't even acceptable to be alone in a room with a guy. Yet this man would spend long periods of time alone...petting...making comments that were confusing to me.
I had only experienced anger and abuse from all the men in my life so far, so getting special attention was perplexing.
I thought that maybe this is what a real father figure looks like.
I was afraid, perplexed, confused, but he was the one who made up many of the purity rules anyway, and I had been taught that he was always right.
I was taught that as a woman, I was not to stand up against the male authority figures in my life, so what was I supposed to do?
It was all so confusing...
In discussions of whether or not Bill did "good" we must remember that no one is good, but God.
"But we are all as an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags and we all do fade as a leaf and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away." Is.64:6.
Praise the Lord who substituted His righteousness for ours!
The above comment is not meant to exonerate Bill, but rather to not put him in a special category as his supporters do because his teachings somehow did some "good."
It might just be me, but all the comments are not wrapping properly, and running off the side of the screen making the last 20 characters of each line unreadable. Is there a glitch in the system?
I too am having difficulty reading the right side of the page and losing the content because of it.
I've seen a change in the display this afternoon, also. Though, I'm not losing content. It looks to me like maybe there are some changes going on in an attempt to eliminate the "skinny threads"...expanding remarks into the right margin. I use Firefox. Maybe that's the problem?
I am problems with the right margin also.
Actually, I think this might be the only article with the comments display problem.
Try a different browser. I am using Chrome and no lines are cut off. Everything is easy to read.
Thanks Recovering Grace for all of your hard work!
I tried it in Internet Explorer, too, and had the same issue...but Now it is all working, so it must have just been a temporary glitch....strange
Mine too! I just put my cursor in the comment bar and spaced the page over slowly so that I could then hit the reply button.
All these testimonies appear to come from many years ago all and exceed the statute of limitations for filing legal charges. It just seems like there would be more recent incidents where charges could be filed. If not, it makes it hard to believe some of the stories...surely there more recent accounts of abuse if BG and ATIA are so evil
Jennifer, the advent of the internet age has alot to do with this information not coming out to public knowledge sooner, not to mention the ignorance that many of these people were kept in as to state law, business ethics, etc.. It's not really that unbelievable, and factor in the more recent people who may not WANT to face the facts, it's not that surprising if there aren't more recent stories. One more thing to consider is this: if there are more recent folks who are able and willing to testify of illegalities with unexpired SOL's, they are probably not permitted to post the stories online, for legal reasons. (The same applies for recent cases of sexual harassment, those stories will not be public knowledge for legal reasons.)
Aaaaand, this attitude is exactly one of the reasons the sexually abused don't tell. Their worst nightmare is to tell of this shame and not be believed!
Mothers and fathers, please have frank, age-appropriate discussions with your children -- male and female -- and instill that they can come to you and tell you and fully trust you to protect them and take action if anybody tries to touch them inappropriately. Also tell them to scream bloody murder! Take it from someone who was molested as a child and didn't tell until I was in my 30s when I finally told my mom (I am now in my 50s). Trust me, she would much rather have known when it happened when she could have done something. When she could have stood up for me. Now she could only cry! It broke her heart. Of course she blamed herself for whatever it was within me that didn't trust my parents enough to tell them when I was a child.
One of the things that haunts me about not telling is wondering how many more? How many more young girls did he molest in the past 35 years? It all came flooding back when I saw him in a church anniversary pic. OMG! He still goes there??!? Oh no! How many more??!?
Wow, I'm so sorry! Did you go forward and tell when you saw the picture? If not, if you know where he is, I think it absolutely would be worth telling even now.
God bless you as you sort through all of this and minister to those who have been hurt.
I agree with the thorough analysis. Second, was anyone else concerned with his use of "girls," in his statement? I found it pejorative . . . and he is not a "boy" but an old man, who perhaps thinks of himself as a boy?
I find it very frustrating that the institute has hired David Gibbs to do the investigation into all this. Please, somebody tell me this is not so??!! Did I hear wrong? He is friend of BG. They need a private investigator to come in and do the investigation!! But I guess this would be so typical of them to be guarding their interests!
@ Lori M.
this was posted by the RG moderator as a comment on "There Is No Victim: A Survey of IBLP Literature on Sexual Assault and Abuse"
"Just to clarify, IBLP has never claimed to have an external (independent) investigation in this current scandal. Their process is completely an internal investigation, by their own admission. Their investigator is a long-time speaker at their own conferences and has been a friend of Bill's since the 1980s. Recovering Grace is calling for an independent investigation by a professional, unbiased source---preferably someone who has never received financial gifts from IBLP."
Thanks Emee! Had not read that yet. Truly sad! Yes, we need an unbiased investigator!
Yes Lori, you heard correctly. The supposed external investigator is David Gibbs, friend of Bill Gothards for several decades. The fact that they chose Mr. Gibb's law firm to conduct this investigation speaks volumes about whether this board is seeking the truth, or is playing CYA.
As an Emergency nurse I have seen some of the most despicable acts that humans can do to another-and NO ONE is susceptible from falling. As a Christian, I have seen many men fall into sin and NO ONE is susceptible from this sin. When someone feels they are above the sin, take heed lest you fall-yes that is pride.
[remainder of comment redacted by Moderator]
Thank you Lois. I've had a hard time reading the comments from the person you mentioned. He seems so oblivious to everyone else's grief. Your comment was very helpful.
Not sure why my entire comment was removed unless the individual had it removed. Thanks for your encouragement.
[comment removed by commenter's request]
Lois,
There has been a lot of back and forth with Alfred regarding Gothard's anti-adoption stance. As with virtually all of Gothard's teachings, Alfred defended his most horrid beliefs on adoption to all of us.
I had been wondering if Alfred and his family were the only ones IN his assembly. Is he among the leadership there? I hope not.
I have following this just a bit, I appreciate most of your ocmments (I didn't read them all eh). I went through a situation similiar to this, and how this is being conducted is awesome, and one thing is that God will judge us "all" eh! I pray that you all have recovering in His Grace and nothing short of that.
Peace be unto you!
May His Grace Heal you, keep you, and direct you all.
Chewie
I had never heard Bill's voice before and having just listened to the RG interview. I have been thinking that if he were to make his statement on you tube or something it would be obvious how insincere his apology is. His voice is golden, however, and I think now it is better that he is issuing written statements. I feel like I have insight into how he got away with it. I think I thought that he would sound as suspect as his writings do. I am shocked and it gave me the bad kind of chills to hear how earnest and sincere he sounds in the opening clip of the issues etc. interview. Totally get how many of you were sucked in. I have a new fear of false teachers now.
Good observations. Narcissists are consummate actors and can be extremely charming on the surface of things. Only those with a little "street smarts" and experience under their belts can detect the BS. That's why these kinds of people are especially dangerous to the young and idealistic--but also to all the naive.
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is the weird distinction Bill Gothard makes between the inappropriate behavior he does acknowledge and the "fact" that he purportedly still has never kissed a girl.
It's like he thinks kissing a girl is a greater evil than taking advantage of his position of authority so that he could play footsie with a teenaged employee...as though somehow, if his readers can still believe he has never made mouth-to-mouth contact with a female, he can continue to hold onto some level of moral superiority.
This is such blatant legalism that it basically negates the rest of Gothard's statement. Nowhere in the Bible can we find any instructions about premarital kissing, either for or against. The fact that Gothard holds out his supposed continued adherence to his own extrapolated "no kissing" rule as some sort of mitigating factor shows that he has not yet grasped any of the real problems with his teachings and his hypocrisy.
Well said, and Alfred is really in this very same boat. Why should Charlottes' story really be in an altogether different category than the rest, except perhaps legally: if proven, maybe a criminal offense. But as far as the bible goes , or the mindset of the savior, are the stories that different ? I do see some 'technical' differences between adultry and fornication, but somehow I'm thinking that GOD sees the spirit and intent of something as much as the physical details.
Bill's comment about 'no sexual intent' is to me beyond believing. He is either unaware of his own sexual interests (doubtful), or he is lying.
In reference to the moderator's point of concern #1. To quote BG, "Families were made to feel that they must "measure up"... This resulted in some parents putting undue pressure on their sons and daughters... when there was a lack of love or inconsistency, sons and daughters saw this as hypocrisy and rejected it." We are one of those families. Of course the fault is mine for either my lack of love or my inconsistency or both. But whatever the case, I joined the Wisdom Searchers Yahoo group after we had been in ATI for probably 15 yrs or so, looking for help and support due to the struggles of our young adult daughters and older teens who were rejecting the standards I had believed to be solidly Biblical and tried by best to uphold and see that they upheld. More than once, the moderator of the WS group would not publish my post until I rewrote it because she felt it might cast some doubt or fears in the minds of young ATI families concerning certain ATI standards. She felt it was her job to make sure nothing that might appear disloyal to BG was posted to the group. A couple years ago, we did not renew, since most of our children were graduated and we were rarely ever doing the wisdom books with the 3 youngest. But I didn't, leave the WS group because I valued the wisdom of the older ATI moms who had successfully raised godly sons and daughters who were mighty in spirit. But when all this came to a head here on RG, I unsubscribed from WS because I didn't feel I could bear it if they went on as if nothing had happened and did not permit honest dialog about how this is affecting our families. Part of me regrets leaving, as I am curious how it is being handled. But my main purpose for this post is to put out a plea for a Recovering Grace support group for former ATI moms!!! Could the RG moderator possibly set up such a group under the auspices of the RG website? It would need to have restricted membership to only former ATI moms, dads, and students. We need a safe place to dialog about how we can facilitate healing and help to restore unity in our families that have been crippled by trying to live up to ATI standards.
Anna Keener, it takes guts to acknowledge that ATI might not have been the best choice for your family--thanks for sharing. May God restore the relationships in your family. I think this might be what you're looking for: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/recoverygroups/
"If you think about it in the Christian context,” [Tchividjian] continues, “God did his most powerful work when Jesus, his son, was at his most transparent and vulnerable, on the cross. So why do we approach all these things differently? If I’m a Christian, why am I not driven by the fact that if we mess up as an institution, then when we’re most transparent and vulnerable, that’s when God can do his most powerful work? I’ve seen that in churches: When they do respond that way, it’s pretty powerful what results in the lives of survivors.”
Excellent article on Christian sex abuse scandals, featuring GRACE, at American Prospect.
http://prospect.org/article/next-christian-sex-abuse-scandal
I read Gothard's letter and RG's response to it as well as the comments. MY heart is so heavy that I can hardly bear it. Things I hadn't thought about for years came back in a tsunami wave. I know nothing, really, of Gothard's ministry for the last several decades. I wrote him off when I was barely into college in the 80's. But let me say that my family's experience left no doubt in my mind that BG was capable of heinous acts, pride, and destruction. He was always so sure he was right. His interpretations of the Bible were always right. God told him!!!!
All my parents did was go to his seminars in the 60's and 70's and apply his "principles" to our family life. I never met the man nor was I directly involved in his "ministry". I did read the "red book" to try to understand what my parents were doing and why. That caused enough damage to last for many, many years.
My story is a hard one and not one I care to revisit in any depth at this time in my life. My mother is dead now ( and my father dying), and to the end of her life she always beat herself up for following the Gothard teachings even for a little while. She believed or hoped that by subscribing to the "chain of command" principles, her horrific marriage would improve and her abusive husband would stop inflicting so much pain. The opposite happened. My father was a Christian man who LOVED Gothard's teachings as it gave him all the ammunition he needed to continue abusing his wife and children, both physically, emotionally, and spiritually. My father never acknowledged his behavior as anything other than that of a loving father and spiritual leader of the house.. My brother and sister were hurt a great deal, but I was devastated. I had severe symptoms of anxiety, panic, and depression from a very early age. This was labeled rebellion and dealt with as such. In reality, I was a very obedient child and earnestly sought God's will for my life and prayed. It is difficult to love God, faith, and the Bible when used as instruments of torture. In my adult life, I have come to realize that the God I was raised with, the God that Gothard worships, is not the real God.
I still struggle to feel any connection to God. I still believe the basics, but I have no interest in rules, regulations, and pat answers in the form of a flow chart. Attending a church can initiate a panic attack. Certain words or phrases in the christian lexicon can brings tears to my eyes and cause a mini meltdown. Bill Gothard was not the cause of my family's problems, but he was a catalyst. He damaged a family already broken, desperately in need of grace and love, not rigidity and rules. I see from this website that Gothard left many broken people in his wake, not caring that his brand of "Christianity" was damaging so many lives. I truly believe that for as many people who came to God through BG, many more turned away. I understand that we are each responsible for our own lives, but as little children indoctrinated in this stuff, it takes a lifetime to sort through it all. I'm still sorting. I don't dwell on those days and Gothard rarely comes to mind, except when I accidentally run across his name. This latest chapter in the Gothard story doesn't surprise me one bit, but it makes me terribly sad.
And why, for goodness sake, are all the women wearing long ugly skirts at every event on his website? In 2014, are women still not allowed to dress in pants? Jeez. I know, I know, I shouldn't have gone to the website, but I was curious as to what Gothard's organization was up to these days...for some reason, all the ugly skirts made me mad and also laugh a little at the irony!!!
Iblp is a disaster filled w some of the most naive people I ever met. I just left their Nashville conference after one day. I knew nothing of all of this until now. If you want even more dirt, look up their keynote speaker David Gibbs of the Christian law association. One of the biggest scams I have seen. Wow, where is their discernment. I'll be staying away from this group in the future. It is poison and poorly represents Christianity.
I can't believe I thought being associated w this group would be good for my family. Upward and onward.
Consider yourself blessed to have seen the light this early in the game for you and your family.
Lol - my first conference, as a child, I thought the same thing, "What a bunch of hogwash!" is what exactly went through my mind. :)
Although I understand, it also pains me to hear folks characterize those attracted to and who implement the most egregious aspects of BG's teachings, doing the devil's work of abuse in Christ's name, "Christians." Please understand folks, it is not being able to correctly verbalize certain Christian doctrines that makes us Christians, but rather our real underlying heart motivations and where the seat of our trust is--reflected in our actions (Matthew 25). Others may be fooled, but Christ is not (Matthew 7:21-23).
Y'all are spot on in your responses to Mr. Gothard's statement. While he says some good things, it comes across as sterile and not addressing the real issues. I would even hazard a guess that he did not write this statement himself. As a communications person, I recognize a damage control statement when I see one. What we have here is a very finely written statement that admits almost nothing and takes no real responsibility for the damage caused. I'm proud of y'all for holding his feet to the fire and am praying for courage for those young women who were directly affected to do what needs to be done so that this behavior stops.