My wife and I watched the movie Tangled last night. For months now, we’d heard from other former ATI students that the movie was a great analogy for spiritual abuse and the journey out of a legalistic system of thought. It’s even been referenced a number of times here on Recovering Grace.
After watching it, I couldn’t agree more.
For those that haven’t seen it, I’ll try not to spoil it for you by giving away too much. The basic premise of the story is that the princess, Rapunzel, has magical hair which glows with healing powers when she sings. She was kidnapped at birth by Mother Gothel, who simply wanted to use Rapunzel’s gift to maintain her own youth and vitality. She locked Rupunzel in a tower and kept her there through fear of the outside world. Tangled is the story of how Rapunzel finds her freedom.
While I know that Disney had no intentions other than crafting another typical princess fable, I just thought I’d share with you a few poignant analogies that I found in the film.
- Misplaced authority. Throughout the film, Rapunzel assumes that Gothel is her mother, never realizing until the end that she has a true mother and father. Likewise, children brought up in Gothard’s system are taught to believe that their parents are their primary authority, and that God will only speak to them through that authority. The truth is that they have a loving heavenly Father who desperately longs to have a personal relationship with them. Certainly there is a very important role for parents in the nurturing and raising of children. But their goal should be that their children will grow to have a personal relationship with God. Too many ATI parents demand that their children always obey them, even into adulthood, marriage, and beyond. Even when God is leading them to do something contrary.
- Fear-based protection. In the movie, Mother Gothel keeps Rapunzel in the tower not through physical restraints, but through emotional ones. She refers to the outside world as dangerous, and warns Rapunzel of the hurt that will occur if she ever dares leave the tower. This is one of the key ways that spiritually abusive organizations operate. They tell their followers that if they leave, they’ll fall into worldliness, sin, and worst of all, damnation. Gothard’s teachings to parents often utilize horrible anecdotes of what might happen if their child rebels. Likewise, ATI parents often give a wrong impression of the “outside world” to their children in order to keep them from rebelling. Sure, the world is full of sin, and there is much that can harm. But parents need to teach their children how to deal with “the world” as it is, not as some exaggerated myth.
- Emotional trauma upon leaving. When Rapunzel first leaves the tower, she goes through an emotional crisis. She swings back and forth between incredible joy and incredible fear, liberation and guilt, laughter and tears. Much in the same way, former ATI students who have “left the system” go through a long process of emotional healing. The same feelings Rapunzel expresses in the movie are dealt with on a long-term basis.
- The need for a guide. Rapunzel leans heavily upon her “friend” Flynn Rider as she leaves the tower. Although he (at the time) is not the most noble of characters, he helps Rapunzel acclimate to a world which she is experiencing for the first time. In the same way, those of us who have left ATI tend to lean heavily on others for support and guidance as we find our way in the real world. This is why there has been an explosion of online support groups for former students, and this is one of the main reasons Recovering Grace exists. The need for spiritual, emotional, and physical guidance cannot be overstated.
- An ever-patient Father. I think the thing I love the most about Tangled is that even though she didn’t know it for eighteen years, the King never stopped hoping that she’d come home. To him, she never stopped being a princess, and he never stopped being her father. Isn’t that just like how our heavenly Father is with us? Children raised in a legalistic system of behavior have a hard time understanding that there is a loving Father out there who is seeking a personal relationship with them. Still, their Father patiently seeks them out, waiting for them to come home and longing to show them His love.
So, what do I take away from “Tangled?” Well, for one, it was a great movie! But even more, I found a strong reminder that there are many more “Rapunzels” locked in emotional and spiritual towers, not knowing that there is a King who wants nothing more than to wrap his loving arms around them. I pray that you would look for them in your sphere of influence, that you would take it upon yourself to guide them to the King, and that you would show them the love that they so desperately need.
Very true! I, too, was deeply touched by the parallels in the movie as soon as I saw it--especially the conflict she underwent after defying her "authority," who should never have been considered such. It would be difficult as a former ATI-er NOT to see Mother Gothel in a conflicting light. Shouldn't she obey her because she's her authority? Isn't she disobedient here? But this was a wrong authority--so is it okay? Truly, you clarified this muddy emotion for me.
Jamie,
I identify with your thoughts! The first time I watched it I felt a bit uncomfortable too with the way she treated her mom, especially after my friend (also a former ATI student) said she didn't like it because it "glorified rebellion". When I watched it the second time I saw and loved the portrayal of her being released from tyranny into freedom. After reading this post I hope to watch it again too!
Great article! Even though I wasn't raised ATI, which would be even MORE restrictive, I can certainly relate to being raised sheltered and fearful. It's been both exhilerating and frightening to step out in faith to follow Christ outside the preferences and traditions of the church in which I was raised.
I took my sisters to a wordly film-viewing establishment to watch this hedonistic, non-SAIFF produced feministic movie to cement my lukewarm status and turn their hearts from Jesus...
That scene where Repunzel contradicts herself after escape, played for laughs amongst most the audience, but my sisters grew quiet and I found myself feeling anxiety for the poor CGI-created character. I couldn't help but wonder if the film's writer had known abuses similar to ours.
A point I would add to further show just how analogous the film is in taking note of how Gothel uses Rapunzel's qualities and traits for herself and her own self-image, hijacking the character of one for her own reputation.
Beautifully thought out and written! I loved the picture you portrayed of how the father never ceases being her father, and patient waits, hopes, and longs for her return. What a beautiful picture of our Father, God waiting for each of His children and faithfully sending out lights to guide us home! Thanks for sharing!
I felt the same way when I watched the movie, but what I hadn't noticed until I read this review is the similarity between the names "Gothel" and "Gothard". :-)
I love this; thank you so much for writing it, John! I have thought the same things about this movie, except for the Father analogy. I want that kind of relationship with Him, again--the kind where I feel the love He must have had for me to send His only begotten Son to die. . .
"I couldn't help but wonder if the film's writer had known abuses similar to ours." @Kiser, makes me wonder too. Would be great to sit and visit with John Lasseter and Glen Keane, driving forces behind Tangled. I have always admired Lasseter's grasp of relationships and humanity as shown in the Toy Story franchise and other Pixar films. Wikipedia says that Lasseter started cartooning while sitting in services at the Church of Christ he grew up in...interesting. As for Glen Keane, son of Family Circus' Bil Keane, I have heard that he is a Christian. In any case, very thankful for their significant cultural contributions through animation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYbHzzWmKUs
This is beautiful. Shared on facebook.
So well said! I can identify with so many parts of this movie.
I agree 100%. Thank you for writing your thoughts.
Our situation is not entangled with Gothard, but with one family just as pernicious and manipulative. I silently cried through the movie at the theater as I saw all of the abuse which you mention and which is also woven into our own situation (another family, with a completely domineering mother, entangling our adult children--we are shunned as not holy enough these last 10 years)
I can not express my thanks in words for how you ended your post. YES! let's keep our hearts open to those who are caught in webs they can not free themselves from. They may very well be my children, grandchildren, or yours.
The movie Tangled is one of our favorites also. The father who never forgot. This is my husband and I....and our great God who is working in hearts of those who are trapped.
I couldn't agree more!!! This movie was exactly me!!!
I felt so trapped and afraid of the world.
I went through the emotional trauma of having been "rebelliousness" when I left (at age 23).
I have found a personal relationship with God that I never had before, even though I was a Christian!
And now, life is so wonderful!!! He helps me with everything and lovingly cares for me as a princess of the King!!!
Jesus says, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free . . . Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin . . . if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed” (John 8:31-36).
I believe that Tangled incorrectly describes the nature of freedom. It communicates that you cannot be free in situations of oppressive authority. However, that is not a scriptural understanding of freedom. Peter tells servants to submit even to harsh masters, patiently suffering under injustice (1 Pet. 2:18-25). He tells wives to submit to their husbands even when their husbands are nonbelievers (3:1-6), and he commands all believers to submit to secular authority, which we all know makes stupid and oppressive laws (2:13-17). This is not the picture of freedom that we desire or that the world understands. Oppression is not usually considered compatible with freedom. However, Jesus states that we have perfect freedom through him (John 8:36).
So what is freedom? Freedom is being rescued from sin (John 8:34) and becoming a slave to righteousness (Rom. 6:18). This sounds really trite and like a Sunday-school sort of answer. So let me try to describe this freedom in a way that is more applicable to everyday life.
First, a slave to righteousness does not mean living every day in absolute terror of falling short of God’s righteousness. I was reading in 1 Corinthians 4 today and was struck by Paul’s comfort in the statement “He who judges me is the Lord” (4:4). When I think of God’s judgment, I remember all of the sins I’ve committed recently and I don’t feel comforted. However, Paul rejoices in receiving God’s judgment because “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). Paul is secure in his standing with God because that standing is attained through Jesus and not by himself. While he constantly strives to grow in his walk with the Lord (Phil. 2:12), he is at peace because his righteousness is established by God.
I would argue that freedom in Christ means that we are able to glorify him and rejoice in him in whatever situation we are in. This means that in situations of oppressive authority, we can continue to love without bitterness. When people unjustly accuse us, we don’t have to lash back in anger. When somebody cuts in front of us in line, we can quietly give up our place. Pretty much, we don’t have to give the human response because we have been freed to respond with the Holy Spirit. This means that nobody can take away our joy or our purpose in life since these are based in our relationship with God. Freedom in Christ means to live in the freedom of truth and righteousness. Paul provides a perfect example of freedom when he says, “I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content . . . I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:11b, 13).
What does this have to do with Tangled and the ATI/Bill Gothard movement? Well, it doesn’t directly address that issue. However, I want to exhort myself and whoever reads this to focus on Christ and our freedom to live righteously in him rather than harboring bitterness against movements that may have hurt us. Through Christ, we are free to honor and love without being enslaved to past hurts!
I suppose you would've been one of those that opposed the War for Independence.......
So if someone kidnaps you, and holds you against your will, it's your job to stay subjected to their authority because that's God's will for your life? Just be content as a prisoner.
And if your child is kidnapped from you, and is raised by an evil person who abuses the child, your advice to your child would be what? To stay submitted to that authority? I fail to see the logic here.
Dear Freedom in Christ,
IMHO, your post above seems to express that you are a slave to a performance based religion. Ie, as long as 'I' do the right thing, only then will a I be free. A human that relies on his or her's ability to perform works is doomed.
TRUE freedom in Christ has nothing to do with our actions, IF it did, Christians would be doomed and Christ's work on the cross null, void and worthless.
Tangled address's this exact issue which I suppose you may have missed.
Paul also said that if slaves could get free, they should do that. It was only if they were unable to become free that they were to submit.
While I don't completely stand behind the comments that were given, I do respect the fact that Scripture was used as the basis for the comment. Whereas, everyone who responded, obviously lacked any real Biblical understanding. They believe that their opinion is more important than Scripture. ALWAYS let the Bible be the foundation for your beliefs, and never try to make the Bible line up with your own preferences or personal opinions.
I disagree that the folks who responded think their opinion is more important than Scripture. I know most of these people and few are reacting against Biblical restraints. What they react to is the imbalanced application of Scripture.
For example, in ATI, we were repeatedly told "Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right" (even if you were 25 and in any other context, an adult). Yet seldom were we told its counterpart: "Fathers, do not exasperate your children." I could tell you story after story (including my own) of ATI parents who just couldn't seem to let go. Even after their children were grown, married, heads of their own households, etc.
It's very telling that some of the comments on here are so quick to condemn Rapunzel's "rebellion" (even though she was 18 and Mother Gothel wasn't her parent anyway) and at the same time completely ignore the exasperation factor.
But hey, I guess controlling their children, rather than raising them just works better for some people. Or is this just my opinion being more important than Scripture?
Sorry. I couldn't find the War for Independence in the Bible.
Someone quoted Scripture in a comment. Others made statements without any Scripture. That doesn't make the first one "Scriptural" and the second ones "opinions."
It's possible to write a whole essay that's Scriptural without quoting a verse, and it's possible to build an entire theology peppered with Scripture verses that's actually antithetical to what God says.
If you can't see the Biblical basis for a statement without the chapter and verse and sermon included, then who is it who lacks Biblical understanding?
Um, excuse you? How can you make a judgement like that based on one comment from a person, that they "obviously lack any real Biblical understanding"? I'll refrain from stating the things it seems you obviously lack.
Can someone please tell me where the Scripture says that a fairy tale character held hostage by a kidnapper, must obey said kidnapper and not try to escape? Hell-o-o...
I would submit to you, that we are no longer slaves, but sons. That THIS is what freedom in Christ means. And yes, there is Scripture to specifically support this.
I agree with your thoughts regarding the abuse of our God-given guidance of our children. We are to train them and, ever so gently, release them from our care. Keeping them bound to us is not even remotely Biblical. However, I marvel that absolutely no one (so far as I have found) has addressed the issue of Flynn telling Rapunzel that rebellion is normal "healthy even!" I am weary of so many, churched and unchurched; Christian and non, telling our children from the time they are ten years old that it is "normal" to crush your parents, hate them, and rebel against them! A friend loaned this movie to us. I would never purchase it, as I do not support disney at all, but least of all to help them creep into homes to speak such lies to children and create division between them and their parents.
But the person she was rebelling against was not her true parent, had committed a crime, was imprisoning her, and abusing her. How is it healthy OR OKAY to subject ones self to that? Rebellion IS OKAY when it's against a FALSE authority, or one that is misusing power. God allows us to have that freedom. Especially if we are rebelling to free ourselves to find and align ourselves with truth. That's healthy! smh
Rebellion is completely healthy and necessary when the one you are rebelling against is abusive. Besides, Flynn said that line tongue-in-cheek. He was trying to get Rapunzel to leave him alone. Context is helpful here.
I wish more Jews had rebelled against Hitler!! Some believe that obedience is to be blind. Scripture teaches otherwise, just read the Psalms!
Yeah, I do agree w/ the character's statement about rebellion, actually. There comes a point at which you need the freedom to find out who you really are, what you really believe, what you really want to do, regardless of who your parents are. This type of seperation of self from parents is normal and necessary to healthy adulthood, and is designed to take place in adolescence. Now, if your parents give you the freedom you need to accomplish this task, it may be less likely to entail a lot of actual rebellion... But then, many of us did not get that from our parents, did we? And the Rapunzel character in the movie certainly did not receive such a measure of freedom from Mother Gothel. Many of our parents tried to exert their authority well into our adult years. Definitely misplaced authority when it extends so long. And Mother Gothel's authority was also obviously misplaced.
I am sorry but I fail to see that the whole "Flynn" thing was actual rebellion on Rapunzel's part, regardless of whatever he said.
The problem with what you are saying here is that "parents in ATI" train their kids to be oppressed in their life-long submission to them!!! I say, GOD!! sent Flynn to rescue her!!! God can use a Flynn to help all of us!!!
Who are you that you are so much more holy than Flynn, who has been through pain and was trying to get on the best he could, who had failed in life and desperately wanted something better in his life!!! And God brought Rapunzel to him!! To save him!!!
I think Rapunzel knew in her heart that something wasn't right. It wasn't as if she was a girl of 10 years old. She was turning 18. She didn't need to be sheltered at that point in her life. If Gothel had been her mother, she would have been exposing her to the real world instead of keeping locked away from it. How is it teaching children to rebel when she wasn't even a "child" anymore? Gothel wasn't her mother and so like Becky said it wasn't rebellion against her parents. Flynn was misguided at first, but as Rapunzel believed in him and gave him a chance, he then was able to believe himself too and do the right thing. How is that not a redeeming quaility? All your alerts went off, Cherry, when you heard the line Flynn said about rebellion. Typical of BG teachings to take something out of context to fullfill a unrealistic view on life. There are too many grown "Rapunzels" out there stuck in the "tower" of being under their parents authority till the hand picked "Prince Charming" arrives. I have the feeling you didn't watch the movie to the end. I suggest you watch it again and see if you can see the whole picture before you pick apart one tiny piece of it.
Let's be really clear here. Rapunzel was NOT rebelling against a legitimate authority. Saying that she ought to have continued to submit to Mother Gothel is like saying that Jaycee Lee Dugard should have continued to submit to the Garridos.
Granted that Flynn is not exactly the Prince Charming that most of us have in mind for our daughters, his patience and resourcefulness are exactly what this bound, abused, conflicted, completely lost young woman needed to help her separate from a VERY unhealthy relationship.
And Rapunzel's "rebellion" is not carried out in a spiteful, "screw you" way. It's clear that she's torn between feeling disloyal to the only mother she's ever known and being true to something bigger than herself that she doesn't understand but that is drawing her toward the truth about herself, her heritage, and her destiny.
Even in the final scene with Mother Gothel, you see the anguish on Rapunzel's face as she tries to achieve a separate identity without causing too much pain. When the pain becomes too great for her, she bargains with Fate, as so many of us do. "Fine, have it your way, but let me just do this one right thing." And when her magic hair is gone and the "mother" she thought she loved is in danger, Rapunzel leaves the man she loves dying on the floor as she tries to grab Mother Gothel before she falls out the window. It's a moment that those who have escaped from abuse know all too well --- "I don't want you to DIE ... I just need you to let me spread my wings."
Yes, if "Rapunzel" were truly a story that taught that it's okay to rebel against rightful authority and that it's okay to do whatever you please, I would have a lot of trouble with it. But it isn't. It's a story about realizing that you've been lied to, taken advantage of, and robbed. And that there is a reason for the yearning in your heart that you didn't understand, and that has made your life a restless misery since you were old enough to question.
It is, at heart, an allegory. Because you and I ARE Rapunzel. Stolen at birth from the One who made us. Locked in a tower and enslaved to sin by a power we call Satan, who does not want us to know that there is a Father out there who is seeking for His little lost child. And all we have to do is confront that power with its lie. Tell it that we will no longer serve its selfish, wicked purposes. And flee to the arms of our true Father, who is waiting, seeking, desperately wanting to restore us to the place He has made for us. And sometimes we need a guide to help us find our Father. And while He often speaks deep in our hearts, He often, too, uses just such a one as Flynn Rider ... another flawed, needy, lost child who needs OUR help just as much as we need his.
No, I cannot condemn this movie. At its heart, it is the Great Love Story, repackaged and retold in a new and surprisingly heart-grabbing way.
I want a Flynn for my daughters. :)
Beautifully said, Wendy!
Thanks, Wendy, for explaining so beautifully why I cry each time I see this movie. And when you spend time with a small niece and nephew, you're likely to see it a LOT... especially if, on top of that, you play it when no one's around, and you can't rightly think WHY you want to see it again. You just know it speaks to your heart.
Well written John, and very true. I think the part that grabbed me most was her first day out of the tower. I agree, it definitely resonated with me. Thanks for writing the review, it is a good illustration for us all.
fantastic. absolutely fantastic. i cried when i saw the movie. couldn't wait to write my thoughts on it as well. the confusion of new-found freedom was so well-portrayed that i was astounded. thanks, john, for sharing. =)
Thank your for posting this! I am a part of a very large group of Former Seventh-day Adventists (www.formeradventist.com). We all felt the same way about this movie. I cry every time I hear, "I finally see the light" and I laugh with joy and total understanding every time I hear, "Best day of my life". Great review of the film! I will certainly be sharing this.
Thank you for writing this article. Indeed, thank you all for this wonderfully healing website. I stumbled upon this website about 2 months ago and have found it to be true to its mission. I love the name “Recovering Grace”. And while I feel like I could comment on just about every article, this was the one that finally made me "chime in".
I was in ATI from age 15 to age 26-ish. We missed being a "pilot" family by one year because my dad had some reservations. My mom never let him forget that! She was green with envy whenever the pilot families were honored at the training conferences. (I don't know if they still do that). I was a complacent child, never rebellious, always wanting to please the Lord and my parents. After getting a late start in college, I enjoyed a season of success (I never allowed myself to call it a "career") but continued to think and view the world through my ATI lenses. So much of life never seemed to make sense, but I had learned not to question and to just remain comfortable in my performance-driven world of principles.
Last year I went to see Tangled (I'd never even been in a theater until I was in my mid-thirties). I was like Rapunzel, occupying my life with menial yet pleasant tasks, making the most of my "safe" yet confining world, and never daring to question what lied beyond it. When Rapunzel did work up the courage to ask Mother Gothel to let her go and see the lights for her eighteenth birthday, she more or less repented for asking-- all in the same breath! That was my life... never wanting to upset the boat... always wanting to please.
In ATI, we were taught that pleasing God and pleasing our parents were one and the same. So you can imagine the struggles I've had in my adult life trying so hard to do both. It worked for a long while with both high and low periods until life finally hit a new low and, faced with loss, and feeling like I'd never really lived, I began to sink into a depression. Now I'd always believed that depression was sin because it is self-focused. (That is what we were taught in ATI.) I have now come to see through meditating on the Psalms that depression is like every other emotion that must be brought under the lordship of Christ, but the real issue I was facing was that of doubting God (unbelief), and that is sin. The Psalms helped me to trust God. I now understand why the Psalmist could be so discouraged, self-focused, even depressed at the beginning of a psalm and then be praising God at the end of the psalm. I thank God for my depression because he used it to take me on a journey of faith that has resulted in praise… and a stronger faith! God was testing my faith, not with principles or steps, but with trials (losses) that forced me to see Him for the loving, patient Father he is.
He used this film, also. It was during this lowest of times that I went to see it. Having been expertly schooled in analogies, it wasn't hard for me to see myself in this film. When Rapunzel stepped outside of the tower and began to battle with her emotions, I cried. (Thank God I was alone in the theater). This was my life, always torn between duty and destiny. Now I was at a new crossroad. Would I take a risk and trust God to point out my destiny, even if it meant re-teaching me all that I had previously clung to as safe? I saw it as a picture of courage, not rebellion. And for the first time, perhaps, I allowed the Holy Spirit to speak to me through a "secular" film. (Of course, that was absolutely forbidden in my thinking, but thank God that his thoughts and ways are higher than mine.) I had been crying out to the Lord for months (as I certainly know how), and He had been speaking his Word to me, but it took a picture to drive the point clear to me. He does know the plans that he has for me, and those plans are unchanging. Those plans require a deep trust. Just like Rapunzel had to courageously face the unknown fears around her in order to embrace her true identity, I must courageously live by faith in order to embrace my true identity in Christ and the plans he has for me. The just do live by faith, not by fear or misplaced affections or misguided principles.
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We just saw it and were absolutely delighted. As we were getting our yougest(7) ready for bed after seeing the movie, he said, "Mom, I don't think I'm going to sleep well tonight becuase of Mother Gothard."No, no, son, I don't think her name was Gothard" yet he insisted it was. The parellels are so great how can one not think that someone on the writing team must have had ATI in mind when the script was written. I did go back and check though..it's Mother Gothel...close. And God still reigns on His throne.
lol!
Step outside your ATI “abused” lenses and listen to yourselves!!!! What in the world!!! Next you’ll be telling us that Oprah's book “the shack” is your new bible!!! Just say what you want to say, and not try to make a movie that was never written with any intent of being similar to what you went through!!! I grew up in a ATIA home and missed all that you are describing! My parents raised me to think for myself, they prepared me for life and let me live it! They don’t and have never tried to interfere with me as an adult! I asked for their counsel after I moved out at age 17 to go to college. We had things we didn’t do for our family like no R rated movies, no bikini’s, no non-christian music, healthy food mostly, etc. They were for our family and it wasn’t from anyone telling us to do them. I still love my parents input, I have to ask for it because they don’t just offer it. Maybe I am the exception, but I didn’t know it my whole time in the ATIA program!!! You are talking as if this is how everyone was treated and that can’t be true if I was not. It would be better said, that what you went through, is true of peoples experiences in any religion or home, etc. Don’t try to smash your story into this movie so hard, it makes you still sound very sick!!!! Move on!!!!! Get to the hospital if your still bleeding and get help! Don’t just lay in the car at the scene of the accident!!! The rehashing things over and over, is not helping!!! Get counseling, seek out a good healthy church, find a healthy mentor!!! I don’t hear any of this on any of the comments, and the stories are just bashing or identifying. HELP!!!! People!!!! Wake up!!!! Quit wallowing in yours and others pity!!!!!
Funny, the only people I've heard who perceive RG that way, are people from the Gothard side of the fence. The average person doesn't seem to perceive it that way.
And no, the movie is not a guide to live by. But it did have some interesting parallels. Click around, read some more stories, if you care to linger. I think it could be eye-opening.
As an outsider looking in, I can say, "Shannon," that your perspective is completely skewed. While I'm thrilled for you that you had a normal upbringing, that is definitely not the normal story of the average ATI student. Please listen to Hannah and take some time to actually read and process some of the personal stories on this website.
I understand that having your view challenged may be difficult to process, but I can also vouch that I'm seeing more bitterness and anger from the Gothard-defending side than from Recovering Grace affiliates.
Wow! For someone who claims to have been taught to think from a young age, your comment is incredibly illogical and senseless. Maybe for just one moment you could stop and think that while you may have been fortunate enough to avoid abuse and heartache during your time with ATI, MANY others were not that fortunate. I challenge you to really read some of the other articles on this site . . . most of which are very personal accounts detailing the "bleeding" that they are still experiencing. They ARE seeking help and healing at a "hospital" . . . it is called Recovering Grace!
Shannon, you say, "You are talking as if this is how everyone was treated and that can’t be true if I was not." This site isn't suggesting that EVERYONE had the same experience. You shouldn't either. If you had a good experience, then that's great, but beware using your own experience to minimize the hurt of others, and even scold them for it (with no less than 55 exclamation points? Really?). Their hurt isn't yours, but your positive experience isn't theirs. We're working on healing here; that's why RG exists.
Um, Oprah didn't write "The Shack"......
And you have no idea how many people this website is helping, obviously. You probably shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
Umm...I grew up in an ATI home, too.
You were raised to think for yourself? I am glad. *We* were raised to obey our parents, trust their guidance for our future, and prepare for marriage and children.
They have never tried to interfere with you as an adult? Excellent! *We* were taught that we weren't "adults" until we were released by our parents to our future life partner, even if we were well into middle-age. All of our choices were to be filtered through our parents' wisdom and experience--and will. Failure to comply was the same as rebellion. I missed my own brother's wedding to a lovely Christian woman in compliance to my parents' will, at the age of 25. I had been convinced that to do otherwise was "as the sin of witchcraft."
You asked for your parents' counsel after you moved out at 17 to go to college? Great! The counsel of a parent can be incredibly valuable to the inexperience of youth. *We* were taught by Bill Gothard that college was a dangerous place for a Christian who was truly "sold out" to God's will for their lives. We were taught that college was evil. My husband went to college while his siblings worked at HQ and became close to BG. My husband was prayed for earnestly by his ATIHQ-influenced siblings for his choice to attend college, and was told by other ATI families that he was "in rebellion" to do so, even though his parents allowed it. Because apparently BG's interpretation of the Bible for ATI families trumped the decisions of the families themselves.
You had things you didn't do in your own family, like wear bikinis, view R-Rated movies, non-christian music, mostly healthy food, etc. It appears that your family understood that the standards you stood for belonged to your family, and were your business. This is such a healthy perspective! *We* were encouraged to avoid sports and swimming altogether, because it focused on temporal and not eternal things. All movies were discouraged, televisions were to be removed from the home, and "going to the movies" was practically a cardinal sin. We weren't allowed to discuss the movies we did watch with other families, in case we offended them, no matter the rating. We were not allowed to listen to even Christian music, if it had a backbeat. Which ruled out all CCM, and a large number of inspiring artists on fire for the Lord.
To this day, you have to ask for your parents' input, because they just don't offer it. Your parents are wise to give you room to fail, and I am sure they feel blessed every time you ask them for advice. Continue to cherish their open-handed treatment of you. You are definitely the exception.
I have sought a good healthy church experience, as you suggested. I have found many excellent mentors. I have not remained at the scene of the accident (IBLP). I do not wallow in my own pity; rather, I seek to uplift those who have come up behind me--my younger siblings, families seeking a roadmap to success in life, and those who suffered through ATI far more than I did. This is why I am here.
Why are you here, may I ask? Did you come to throw your exclamation points at the pain and subsequent recovery of others less fortunate than yourself? Why are you so angry?
And lastly--may I suggest that perhaps your family (mercifully) missed the entire point of ATI? Or perhaps you liked the community aspect, but didn't agree with the teachings. The stories here reflect experiences from families who were sold out to the teachings of Bill Gothard and IBLP.
And to loosely quote a line from another great movie, The Princess Bride, "I don't think ATI means what you think it means."
There seems to be harboring of resentments in hearts towards others. This clouds and distorts the vision from seeing things clearly. It also hardens and makes the heart Un-pliable to receive Gods love and care for a person. That condition in the heart will cause the inability to walk in the freedom that is ours because of our position in Christ. You are free in Christ!
You can give your life to your New Master you've already been paid for. You no longer are owned by your old hard task master, Satan. Your New Master just wants your fellowship. Old things have passed away and all things are new. All your debts are paid. You are adopted into a new family
Don’t let the old task master speak into your soul, don’t let him tell you that you will never be good enough for your New Master, and His people. Don’t let him tell you that you’re going to fail again.
If you find that you are without joy in serving, feeling that what you do is not good enough. Don’t be your own hard task master. You can’t fix yourself up, only the time you spend fellowshipping with your New Master will heal all wounds and bring true joy to your heart.
When you are adopted, you are now a son or daughter of the King! All previous debts and transactions have been settled. You can forget the old master and all his lies. You are now defined by your new family. Your (New Master) Father has called you into his family, a settled position established by His word. He has taken care of all the details. It is His desire that you join Him. Daily let your heart be filled and refresh your soul. Yes, there is much work to do, but it isn’t about scrubbing. You are pleasing to Him just as you are. Your hard work won’t change His love for you or earn you a more secure status. Come, spend time with Him and know Him; there you will find a life perfectly designed for you.
In the first chapter of Ephesians Paul writes, “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” In Roman adoptions — which Paul is symbolically referring to — all previous debts and relationships were canceled, defining the new son wholly in terms of his new relationship to his new father, whose heir he now became. So we have the honor and privilege to call Him not only LORD but “Abba, Father,” for we are truly His!
We have been chosen, adopted into a family which is beyond our ability to fully comprehend. We are deeply loved. The facts are clear. Do you really believe it?
OR... maybe we're just telling our stories and warning others. I don't believe God is limited by the depth of our pain; if anything, it provides fertile ground for him to meet us where we are with his love and compassion. Jesus did not come to those who were putting on a good front, acting like they werent hurt or had gotten past their pain. He came to the broken.
I agree with Hannah. I harbor no resentments. But I believe that I do have a duty to warn others when I see danger.
Perhaps this analogy will help. If I'm driving along the highway, and I come to a huge sinkhole in the middle of the road, I have two choices: I can drive around it and go on my merry way, assuming that others driving along the same road will see the sinkhole in time and avoid it, as I did. Or I can stop, call the traffic authorities for assistance, and direct traffic around the hole until it has been safely marked or filled in.
I perceive the teachings of IBLP and ATI to be an enormous sinkhole in the path of anyone trying to follow Christ. They certainly served as a sinkhole in MY relationship with God. Therefore, I am actively working with RG in an attempt to warn my fellow-travelers that there is danger and to direct traffic around this sinkhole.
In the first chapter of Ephesians Paul writes, “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” In Roman adoptions — which Paul is symbolically referring to — all previous debts and relationships were canceled, defining the new son wholly in terms of his new relationship to his new father, whose heir he now became. So we have the honor and privilege to call Him not only LORD but “Abba, Father,” for we are truly His!
We have been chosen, adopted into a family which is beyond our ability to fully comprehend. We are deeply loved. The facts are clear. Do you really believe it?
I love this passage! And I do believe it, even if my belief is imperfect.
AMEN!!! We are all at different stumbling places in our lives, but God knows our hearts desire! Such a comfort!
So the Botkins just wrote a post on their website about "Tangled" and they came to the exact opposite conclusions as you (JohnC) did (which I was expecting). Anyone here got a response to what they said?