It is no secret that Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) have a bizarre outlook on male/female relationships. In a world where falling in love means losing a piece of your heart forever, relationships are a spiritual distraction, and in a place where marriage is a last resort, it is no surprise that the leadership would go to great lengths to discourage or prevent boy/girl relationships. Even in the case of young men and women of marrying age or beyond it, male/female interaction was viewed as a great taboo.
Here are a few examples:
Oklahoma Training Center, 1999. In a rare moment of free time, the students were allowed to walk around the parking lot for exercise. I was walking with a group of several young men and women, and struck up a conversation with a couple of young ladies about a certain radio program. Within five minutes, I received a tap on the back. It was a member of leadership, and I was reprimanded for having a casual conversation with girls. I was told that it was the Training Center’s job to protect my heart.
Indianapolis Training Center, 2001. I was attending an advanced musical course. The music courses tended to be more relaxed than the other Training Center (TC) programs, simply because it was more of a dedicated instructional atmosphere. We were all paying for “education.” Our class seemed to have a lot of camaraderie, partially because we had undertaken a couple of last-minute musical performances for important guests of the Training Center. We genuinely enjoyed each others’ company. Apparently, we were enjoying each others’ company too much, because the head of the music program informed us one day that the TC leadership was concerned about inappropriate relationships. We were then told that men and women were no longer allowed to be in the same room with any member of the opposite sex (even in a group setting) unless there was an adult present. Keep in mind that almost all of the students were over 18, and many of them were in their 20s. In the real world, we were adults. This edict effectively destroyed the camaraderie and Biblical fellowship of this class.
Arlington, Texas, 2006. In my post-Advanced Training Institute (ATI) involvement, I still had connections with folks in the program. One such connection allowed me to work on a recording project for an ensemble that consisted of students from a church comprised mostly of ATI families. After we completed the recording, my wife and I suggested that we all go out for dinner. I still remember being stunned as one young lady had to ask her parents for permission to go out with mixed company. Their answer: as long as my wife and I went as “chaperones” it would be okay. The irony? The young lady in question was older than we were.
The mentality that male/female interaction leads to undesired consequences is a dangerous one. Sure, there can be bad results when young men and women engage in relationships in a manner that does not honor God. But we must never forget that God created men and women to be together not only in marriage relationships, but also in ministry partnerships and in friendships. What often happens to young men and women raised with a fear of relationships with the opposite gender is that they end up fearful and confused about how to relate to each other. It is not uncommon for it to take years before they are able to have relationships that function as God designed.
We must never forget that God created humans to be in healthy relationships with members of the opposite sex. Young men and women should be encouraged to have maturity in their relationships, rather than simply being mistrusted and suspected. Rather than strictly forbidding all interaction with the opposite sex, parents and leaders should focus on teaching their children how God desires them to treat one another as brothers and sisters in the faith.
Curious what these ATI folks think of a holy kiss, a practice that is quite rare. I myself received a holy kiss, from a lady I had a couple of dates with with her husband standing right behind her. Right on the lips. It startled me and she realized it and said she wouldn't kiss me again, but I quickly realized what that kiss meant. I did tell my wife about it which she accepted even if she didn't fully undertand what I meant about a holy kiss.
And we wonder why our relationships have "Dysfunction" stamped all over them. :P Wonder no more!
John, I remember these stories well and they are craziness. It certainly was not their responsibility to protect your heart. It really saddens me even today when I hear of parents treating their grown son or daughter as though they were still a small child. It happens way too often.
I'm also wondering....How many ATI families actually allowed their children to attend Sunday School or Bible study each week and were the classes made up of boys and girls like yours were?
When I was a teen/young adult, we didn't do Sunday School or pretty much any activity arranged by peer group. We went to churches that "kept families together" and when we socialized afterward we naturally divided in gender-specific groups. This was supposed to be a good thing.
"We went to churches that "kept families together" and when we socialized afterward we naturally divided in gender-specific groups."
So was this the norm for most ATI families? If so, we didn't do this and I am sooooooooooo glad we didn't. Yay for something we did right! :)
Yes, that was extremely normal in ATI families. Unfortunately.
We attended a church that was predominantly ATI families, and yes, this was the norm.
In fact, if you were caught talking to a member of the opposite sex, the elders would likely speak to you and rebuke you for it. It could turn into a big hairy deal with your parents involved and you being ostracized for it.
Wonder no more. Youth groups, Bible studies led by anyone other than your parents, and Sunday School classes "would lead your heart into rebellion against your parents." Consequently we were not allowed to attend any of them unless our parents where standing over us in each conversation guarding our hearts from being tainted.
I now work for a mega church in youth ministry and it breaks my heart that I didn't have this kind of support system when I was growing up. God makes all things beautiful in his time though and has given me the opportunity to do for others what wasn't done for me. I love it!
In the TC's this was so bent out of all proportion, that surely anyone who was even beginning to think a little for themselves could see the distortion of 'normal' Christian relationships. Even if you were very conservative, the weirdness was just so extreme that you began reconsidering 'just what is normal male-female interaction, after all?" =)
I had more sincere female friends outside of the MTC than inside. I didn't sleep with a single one, neither. Didn't even break any hearts. They just thought the whole MTC life was utterly strange. I agreed naturally. =)
Oh, and after 3 years in a TC, I had a 6month gap, then started Bible college. Completely different environment, and in some ways I didn't know how to adjust to it. Thankfully, after the first few weeks, some concerned friends literally dragged me out of my dorm and I began interacting that night with females and males alike, homework or no.
Soon I had almost more friends that were girls than guys... Strangely enough, the group that I ended up spending most of my time with was somewhat unbalanced, gender-wise. It was usually me and about 5-6 girls. ;0)
Ah yes, the "exercise" time at the OTC. Walking in circles in the parking lot. What fun! I too was reprimanded for accidentally falling into step with a guy. We weren't walking close together or anything, but my brother and I had befriended him. He'd hang out in the CF!B office some. Anyway, we fell into step and were chatting when we were told that we should find someone else to talk to. The really pathetic part is that I felt guilty enough about it the next day that I actually apologized to the person who told us to separate and asked their forgiveness for being a bad example. UGH. What a dork. lol
You're not a dork! You only did what you had been brainwashed to believe was the right thing to do.
"Mary Magadelene, what are you doing hanging around with that unmarried man without a chaperone around? Not only that, but you are talking with him all the time, and the two of you seem very close... too close. You will not hang around that Jesus guy anymore! And I'm going to go to his mother and tell him to stop hanging around and talking with all those women..."
This made me laugh! I'm so using this now.
Did you observe a different level of this in different groups/settings? My only experience at training centers, besides the all-girl counseling seminar, were the OBCL events, and I didn't notice any restrictions on interacting with guys. (Or maybe I just wasn't very good at noticing rules?)
Yes, I did observe different levels of this in different settings. The rules could vary greatly depending on the person in charge of a particular event or training center. Also, when events were held at training centers, such as the OBCL events, the training center rules often didn't apply to those attending the events.
I also remember the freedom of courtship being emphasized in some of the teachings with it being stated that courtship allowed guys and girls to be friends freely without worrying about romantic attachments. I remember seeing/hearing of this in some of the traveling teams for the Children's Institute traveling teams or family coordinators in the Regional Training Seminars. However, life at the training centers was usually very different from what I saw taught or portrayed by these traveling teams. Seemed like a double standard.
This is consistent with my experience. On CI/overseas CI trips (and at home) we were encouraged to relate to men "as brothers" and enjoyed fellowship in group settings.
At training centers, tho, so much as greeting a young man who was a friend of your brother could start rumors questioning your purity.
As silly and absurd as these examples are, we are actually reading descriptions of something that is evil cult -- this is an evil thing passed off as Christianity. This is not the Spirit of God working -- it is another spirit. It is not the impact of the true gospel, but of another gospel. Bill Gothard is a heretic and teacher of a false gospel. Follow his teaching and Christ will be of no effect to you, indeed, you will walk in darkness. His followers have formed a controlling cult -- and as is always the case with these things, as time marches on, things spiral downward into a worse and worse condition. Read Galatians 1 -- Gothardism is the very definition of what Paul condemns and says is accursed. Serious stuff.
My family had become close friends with another ATI family and one summer we went on vacation to VT.
I was around 15 or 16 at the time, and their youngest boy was only a couple years older than me, so naturally I gravitated towards him.
All of us were driving back to our rented house after going out to eat, and I was sitting in the back laughing and chatting with the boy. Nothing inappropriate, just good-natured fun.
Apparently, his mother flipped out and told my mother I was acting inappropriately. My mother in turn yelled at me and made me feel guilty for doing something innocent.
I will never forget that.
Trust me, this is not limited to the Bill Gothard edge of Christianity. This is common throughout conservative Christianity at large. It's sad and unhealthy.
My daughters are 17 and 15, which is why in part, this is fascinating to me. I grew up totally "in the world". We are now going to a fundamental church, and the leaders in youth group do teach that the youth are to relate as brothers and sisters. They have said that dating should be reserved for courtship and my daughters and I have no problem with that teaching. I am so glad that my 2 girls who have no brothers or cousins, have this time to be a part of normal girl/guy relating. They love youth group and that is very normal. They are being led in a way that is teaching them how to relate to the opposite sex.
Wow! I remember that class! Counterpoint right? We were singing and playing (some of us had our instruments) hymns together in our classroom on the 13th floor, and we got in trouble because it was inappropriate for guys and girls to be spending so much time together or to be so familiar with each other, or something like that... And yes, I had just turned 18 was, I believe, the second youngest in the class. l remember I felt terrible for doing something so wrong and getting in trouble... Complete culture shock when I finally left home and started (secular) university 5 years later!
How do I delete this reply?
Interaction did vary from event to event, depending who was in charge. We must remember that there were many in ATI, as in some churches, that used ATI for their own means... and to blame Mr. Gothard for abuses of power is unfair.
Was Mr Gothard directly responsible for every abuse of power? No. Did his teachings tend to support and encourage abuses of power? To a great extent, yes. Did his example and leadership style encourage and inform such abuses? Most definitely. So, in some very significant ways he was very often responsible, at least indirectly, for many of the abuses of power.
I spent years in ATI. I questioned everything, holding it up to the Bible. Again, there were misapplications by some leaders, but I knew and know Mr. Gothard personally... and he is/would be horrified by those misapplications. Not that he is perfect... I think some of his leadership he should have gotten rid of.
I encourage you to check out the section on Scripture twisting. There are several examples of how Mr Gothard himself is responsible for abuse of Scripture. Plus there are numerous examples on here of Mr Gothard himself "misapplying" his own teachings.
Too often, redefining Biblical terms is a major problem as it twists the Bible. This is being done with the definition of legalism.
In what way? Please be specific.
I read A Matter in Basic Principles. I can see 10% is correct, but 90% off. Theologically it is massively off in numerous applications. Especially in the area of legalism.
Another redefinition... cult. I joined/was in ATI as an adult. I could have walked away from ITC anytime, as I was an adult. Just because someone disagrees wit a Biblical application does not make it a cult. A cult is a false gospel. I have heard Mr. Gothard speak hundreds of times, never once did he say you had to do any standard to earn your salvation.
influential book The Kingdom of the Cults, Walter Martin defines Christian cults as groups that follow the personal interpretation of an individual, rather than the understanding of the Bible accepted by mainstream Christianity. ATI certainly fits the bill.
Cult
Noun
1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
I think Cult is a good definition when looking at Bill Gothard's organizations - IBLP/ATI
Where are you getting your definition from?
Well, here's another "redefinition" for you: "false gospel". If I believed the Gospel was only about initial salvation, and not also about daily living via grace, that I needed God's unmerited favor both for salvation AND for ongoing sanctification, then I could agree with your assessment.
As it is, I cannot.
Sanctification by grace, apart from human effort, is as much a part of the Gospel message as is Salvation by grace. Gothard has traditionally preached the latter, but not the former.
On that basis, I still see it as another gospel, denying the grace of God and its necessity in our daily lives.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
It might be more accurately said that Bill Gothard Practiced a false gospel, rather than preached one. But it has been extensively documented of where he twisted Scripture to the point where it (the gospel) was plenty cloudy at a minimum. The message of the importance of works toward staying in God's good graces was driving home to hundreds of thousands of people.
Your loyalty is admirable "John Doe," but you, my anonymous friend, are on the wrong side of history.
Cite examples. I disagree with your theory. I am not loyal to a man, but to Christ. I will defend Biblical teachers. I will call out, and have personaly talked with Mr. Gothard, in the occasions he has been wrong.
Here is an interesting place to start. An extensive documentation of how he twists Scripture on just one teachings.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/the-sexual-rules-of-mr-gothard/
"Doe," you can't find examples of Gothard's twisting scripture for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. There's an entire section just in this blog devoted to this. There have been books and periodical journal articles written on the subject.
Reminds me of an old saying "The blind can't see no matter how bright the light"
"I will call out, and have personaly talked with Mr. Gothard, in the occasions he has been wrong."
How has Mr. Gothard responded? Has anything changed?
Curious.