25 Comments

1. 

   MatthewS March 28, 2012 Reply

   "Others may, you cannot" was like a theme song, an anthem.
   
   In retrospect, while I believe many who said this had good intentions, I think it mostly devolved into "righteousness of the Pharisees." Youth group was one of those areas for our family - others may go to youth group, you cannot. But it's impossible for a young person to truly hold that with an open hand. If something like youth group is OK, then I am being denied something that is OK. If it is wrong, then my friends are all wrong and I'm right. We were told there are no gray areas - Mr. Gothard repeated that mantra over and over as well. So, honestly, this really implied that in practice, I am better than everyone else.
   
   I love Paul's wisdom in how he handles this in Ephesians 5. Instead of laying down "others may, you cannot" he says to live carefully and make the most of every opportunity. He tells us to live under the influence of the Spirit, which is juxtaposed to someone who is under the influence of spirits (pun intended).
   
   He still places sin off-limits but the overall focus is a positive, life-affirming message. Live! Love! Sing! Be wise, and Give thanks! Make the most of the opportunities that come your way to love God and to love others.

   • 

     grateful March 28, 2012 Reply

     "He still places sin off-limits but the overall focus is a positive, life-affirming message. Live! Love! Sing! Be wise, and Give thanks! Make the most of the opportunities that come your way to love God and to love others."
     
     That is what abundant life is all about, isn't it. The Christian life is the most exciting life to live when lived from the perspective you outlined above (and oulined in the epistles) After all, as BG says in the Basic, whats the worst thing that can happen? we die and then go to heaven, so live out the faith fearlessly with love.

2. 

   "Hannah" March 28, 2012 Reply

   "God's best: what I would choose if I knew all the facts." How often was this used to control and manipulate us, by a man who claimed to know God's "best" for each of us?

3. 

   Alissa March 28, 2012 Reply

   I didn't attend any Bill Gothard conferences but I see the potently negative and grace begrudging impact it has had on some people who I really care about and love. It seems that the teaching must have been very focused on "Shoulds and Shouldn'ts" rather than a sense of Holy Spirit leading and a sense of real grace... A lot of extra-biblical rules, like what exactly women ought to wear, and the idea of having a boatload of children as the ideal, and of course no rock music, like you mentioned in your article, Cheryl... May the Lord of Grace supernaturally bind up the wounds of anyone who is in grace recovery right now. Thanks for posting.

4. 

   dreamer March 28, 2012 Reply

   I hate this kind of teaching- I truly believe it leads free Christians back into the bondage of guilt and shame! When we accept Christ, we become a new creation! We are not just sinners under grace. We are not desperately wicked. We are children of God and joint heirs with Christ! Constantly telling Christians what sinners they are traps them back in bondage and keeps them from living the abundant life God has prepared for them.

5. 

   Thompson March 28, 2012 Reply

   I love this website! I just found it a few days ago, and I can relate. I used to believe a lot of Gothard's unbiblical teachings too. I was never in ATI, but was very supportive of his ministry in multiple ways until a few years ago, when I learned to think for myself, and read the Bible for myself.
   
   I think rules similar to the ones in this article that I made for myself that spring out of Gothard's "Others may; you cannot" phrase were because I regarded what Gothard said more highly than the actual commands in the Bible itself. Of course I would never have admitted that to myself.
   
   I recently added an article called "Consequences of Disobedience" to my website at www.biblicalchurchmeeting.com that I think gives one reason why these kinds of extra-biblical rules spring up and get so much momentum among Christians. If you choose to go to my website, be prepared, because it is very much out of the mainstream. You will probably disagree with much of what the site says.

   • 

     Thompson March 29, 2012 Reply

     I noticed in my posts that I haven't had anything positive to say about IBLP, but the reality is that I'm grateful for most of what Bill Gothard taught me. Had I not been exposed to IBLP I probably would never have placed much importance on seeking the Lord, nor would I have appreciated the perfection of the Bible. And there are plenty of other things. I wasn't ever in ATI so my experience was somewhat different than many here, in that my interactions with IBLP were totally by my own choice as an adult.
     
     And by the way, whatever I did believe in the past that Bill Gothard taught that turned out to not be in line with what I see in my own copy of the Bible, I chose of my own free will to believe it. I have had free access to a Bible my entire life, and whatever Bill Gothard said that I decided to believe that didn't turn out to be biblical, I chose of my own free will to believe what he says instead of what the Bible says. The Lord knows I've taught people things that turned out to be wrong plenty of times in the past. I wish only the best for him.

     • 

       Thompson April 3, 2012 Reply

       Okay, now I've read a few more stories on this site, especially some of the training center nightmares, and I'd like to retract my last sentence in the above post that says, "I wish only the best for him." Although a lot of what he taught was helpful to me, I can't ignore these multiple accounts of young people being treated so hatefully, so I no longer wish the best for him. What I do wish is that he would have to personally experience precisely the same level of misery and anguish that some of the young people serving in the training centers had to endure, such as Jessica, who wrote this story: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/my-itc-prison-sentence-part-3/
       
       Like I said in another post, I don't believe everything I read, but when there are so many stories from multiple people that tell of the same kind of hateful treatment, I'm able to get a pretty good overall picture of what was going on. I think that the man at the top of such an organization deserves nothing but contempt.
       
       It's my understanding that the young people or their parents were actually paying to serve in those training centers, and yet they were being treated not with love and gratefulness, but with suspicion, false accusations, and undeserved confinement. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Instead of working them to death and locking them up at the slightest hint of failing to fully comply with the rules, they should have been bending over backwards to make sure they were happy, were getting plenty of rest and free time, and were enjoying their time there. I first went to a Basic Seminar in 1978. What a disgustingly ungrateful and unloving group IBLP became.

       • 

         MatthewS April 3, 2012

         Thompson, for every story that is published here, there is another one out there that is worse, worse.
         
         And yet, an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. I believe that the one and only thing capable of changing Mr. Gothard is the resurrection power of Christ, expressed through his grace. Not the Gothard version of grace, which is not grace at all, but real grace. How awesome it would be if the man were to actually repent and acknowledge the wounds he has helped cause and perhaps even to contribute to their healing in some way!

       • 

         BeverlyB April 3, 2012

         Amen, Matthew! And thank you, Thompson, for acknowledging the pain and hurt of so many. It is so healing to hear it from you. While I can't vouch for every person's story on this website, I know what happened in my own story and the patterns that I saw first-hand while working with the Institute. And if even half of these stories are true, it is an organization that is dysfunctional at best and abusive at worst. I, too, believe that only the grace of God can change Gothard's heart, and I truly hope that one day it will happen. In the meantime, I'm grateful these stories are being told and so many people are finding healing through God's grace, in spite of Gothard's "ministry."

       • 

         Thompson April 3, 2012

         Yeah, Matthew thanks for saying that. I shouldn't be thinking so much in the eye for an eye mode. I'm just so disgusted. Several years ago I gave IBLP a lot of money several times, and it makes me sick to think that I was helping to support what was going on. I also brought people to seminars and promoted the seminars several times in various ways.
         
         It seems so weird for them to have been so mean to the young people who were actually paying to work for the organization. So those kids were giving them not only their money, but their time and work, and in return they make them work super long hours and follow unrealistic rules and treat harmless communications between young men and women as if they were doing something bad. It just stinks.

       • 

         Thompson April 3, 2012

         Beverly, that is so sweet of you to say that you found it healing to hear from me. Thank you very much for saying that. It has been several years since I had anything to do with IBLP, but I parted ways just because I learned some things I hadn't understood before in the Bible, but I didn't feel like it was a bad group or anything people should be warned to stay away from. But I didn't know about the things that were happening that so many are now talking about here. I'm finding it really helpful to read what people like you are saying.

       • 

         MatthewS April 3, 2012

         *sigh* Thompson, the Lord knows your heart was in the right place. I'm sure the young people that you took appreciated your time and effort and invested in them. Thanks for your words, brother.

6. 

   "Hope" March 28, 2012 Reply

   Cheryl,
   
   As I read your list of "Others may, I cannot..." I identified with almost every one of them in one way or another. What lies I was bound by! And still some of those beliefs affect me today and pop up every now and then surprising me. It is hard work to dislodge beliefs that I grew up with and held to for so long. Even though now I don't agree with any of the "Others may, I cannot" statements you listed, sometimes I still find myself going back and living by some of them. Thank you too for mentioning the book that impacted you! Blessings on your continued healing and recovery. Thank you for sharing!

7. 

   Cheryl Chamberlain Duwe March 28, 2012 Reply

   Thank you for all the feedback... writing this article was hard, but so good and I'm really thankful for this arena to share it in.

8. 

   NathanS March 28, 2012 Reply

   Whenever I heard this phrase from Bill Gothard, it was "Others may, WE cannot." I agree, it needs some balance with a comprehensive teaching on liberty in Christ, such as John Calvin gave in his Institutes (book 3, ch. 19). But it has the seeds of a good application.

9. 

   Lizzy March 31, 2012 Reply

   It's interesting how during the '90s "Others may, I cannot" evolved into "Others may, you cannot," then, "No one can or ever should."
   
   The original Basic Seminar teaching could be paraphrased, "If your conscience cautions you against doing something you believe to be permissible, err on the side of your conscience, while not judging others." This was applied to gray areas of Christian life such as alcohol consumption; even if one thought a little alcohol was acceptable and not a sin, one should be sensitive to former alcoholics and those who did believed that drinking was sin, but at the same time should not condemn Christians who did drink alcohol. This was a teaching about self-limitation for the benefit of others, while not judging those who were enjoying their freedom.
   
   Example: Don't drink a beer because others who cannot handle alcohol may be tempted to abuse it, and those who believe drinking alcohol is sin will be offended. Your enjoying a beer is not worth harming or alienating others.
   
   As ATI's residential programs expanded in the mid '90s, this evolved into "Others may, YOU cannot." Students were told to abstain from all sorts of activities to avoid the "appearance of evil" and maintain a common culture for students from diverse church backgrounds accustomed to differing family practices. A teaching about voluntary self-limitation was transformed into a teaching about submission to authority and enforced conformity to the most conservative practices in the group.
   
   Example: Don't drink a beer because the rules prohibit it, and the rules prohibit it because we have to maintain a community with a common standard of conduct. Don't drink root beer from a longneck bottle because others may think you're violating the rules.
   
   In the late '90s and early 2000s Gothard started teaching that there were no true moral gray areas in the Christian life, and that Christians should abstain from seemingly gray activities because they were sin. Now ATI students were instructed to abstain from activities not because of sensitivity to others, not only because of communal living regulations, but primarily because the activities themselves were affronts to God. The "others may" was effectively dropped, and lived on merely as linguistic habit. Now ATI students were the ones for whom others had to modify activities in order to avoid offense.
   
   Example: Don't drink a beer because drinking is sin, and don't drink root beer from a longneck bottle because others may think you're in sin. To avoid the appearance of evil, drinking root beer from a longneck bottle is now against the rules. In fact, don't drink root beer at all. To be safe, you probably shouldn't drink any beverage from a brown and/or longneck glass bottle, otherwise people might think you're violating the root beer rules.
   
   The transformation from voluntary self-limitation to enforced external limitation to limiting and condemning others was complete. The journey from simple spirituality to a complex system of regulations was complete as well.

10. 

    NathanS April 1, 2012 Reply

    Lizzy, that's a well-done analysis. I wasn't aware of such a development, since I watched the Basic and Advanced Seminars, both developed in the 80s, I think, and then joined ATI as a student in 2000. So having skipped the TC developments of the 90s, I guess I thought the message was somewhat unified. Somewhere along the lines of that awesome CI song "Stand Alone". Along the way, however, I've had to stand alone both for and against some of the Institute's teachings. When you actually talk to people, they can be just as stressed as you are when it comes to conflicting standards. Some are willing to discuss the issues, some will work with you for more freedom, and some just don't want to talk about it. I'm hoping that the original message of self-control will carry through despite the other tangents.

11. 

    Emily April 2, 2012 Reply

    Huh. I thought that was a phrase my mom just came up with..had no idea it was a Gothard thing....

12. 

    WendyA April 3, 2012 Reply

    In one of those funny coincidences that I think God delights in tossing our way, this morning, as I was listening to C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" on the way to work, I heard this quote:
    
    "One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons --- marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema --- but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning."
    
    I immediately thought of Mr. Gothard's "Others may; I cannot" teaching, and this article, which I read just yesterday.
    
    I can see why Ms. Duwe has a problem with "Others may; I cannot," since it was clearly used to abuse her emotionally and spiritually. I don't have a problem with it, generally. I find that it rings true in many areas of my life. Others may eat donuts at breakfast or have a Coke with their lunch; I may not, because I am a diabetic. Others may read Stephen King novels and enjoy them very much; I may not, because I won't be able to sleep for a week.
    
    I DO have a problem with making yourself out to be some sort of super-Christian because of all the things others can do that you cannot. As if God were impressed by our paltry little sacrifices. "Oooh, look at me, I don't go to the movies, aren't I good?" God doesn't dole out His grace that way ... a little more to that "good girl" over there, and not quite so much to that "bad girl" over there. Thank goodness. His grace is freely given to all who believe, in just the measure that they need. It isn't based on our merits at all, but on the merit of His Son. And if we think that anything we can do could possibly earn us a little more of God's favour, then we've misunderstood the gospel.

    • 

      Cheryl Chamberlain Duwe May 14, 2012 Reply

      Good clarification, Wendy. Making my conviction something that another must abide by or else be less spiritual is the abuse.

    • 

      Fred February 25, 2016 Reply

      "One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up"
      
      Wendy, boy does that describe the father of a family I used to go to church with about 20 years ago to a T! He ANGRILY got on my case over music I did for specials (in my case, southern gospel) and even falsely accused me of corrupting his daughters via my tastes in music! I later learned that he also reacted similarly to a group of guys over their music having too much of a beat (and it was a cappella, no less!), and even reacted in likewise manner to our pastor over something he said in a sermon. Yeah, he was scum all right...
      
      That said, some people may consider me legalistic too, but I have completely different reasons behind some views I hold that others may view as legalistic. For example, even though our best friends are social drinkers (and definitely Christian), I personally don't drink at all, because 1) I don't like the taste of alcohol, 2) I want to be in full control of my faculties at all times, and 3) I want to be a good witness for Jesus Christ.
      
      Also, I typically don't go to movies more than about 2 or 3 times a year tops, mainly because either most of them don't appeal to me, or we just don't have time for them.
      
      Also, I remember a year ago, hearing the announcer on BBN start spouting that false doctrine on the air (yes, I happen to like Christian music from way back when), but I instantly recognized it as legalism and bondage as soon as he said it, so I immediately changed the car stereo to our local CCM station (KLJY, St. Louis, MO, aka "Joy FM"). In fact, lately, I've found myself listening to CCM more and more, despite my personal tastes, since BBN does tend to air some occasional legalistic doctrines such as this, and I have no use for that, and it needs to be called out for the nonsense that it is.

13. 

    Jeanne Owens April 4, 2012 Reply

    Cheryl - the books of Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estes have played a huge role in my recovery also. In fact, "Women Who Run With Wolves" may have very well started my journey. I go back to it again and again. One of my favorite lines, "tears are a river that take you somewhere" served me well. As I cried and cried and cried - tears for a lifetime - I was taken many places, including into my IBLP past.
    
    Thank you for your story of you.

    • 

      Cheryl Chamberlain Duwe May 14, 2012 Reply

      Thanks for the kind words, Jeanne. Have you heard any of her audio stuff? Her voice is healing all by itself!

14. 

    Steve April 12, 2012 Reply

    "Others May I Cannot" taken at face value is just fine, as it reflects the "abstain without judging" that a previous commenter mentioned. The problem is that whenever anyone in ATI says it, it is understood to mean "I choose not to, but others choose to because they're Godless scum".