Baking is one of my favorite pastimes. I make a killer banana bread. I love baking cookies and many times, like Marie Barone, bake a cake just because. I follow recipes very closely but always add vanilla even if it is not called for. I can follow those recipes to the letter for one simple reason–I live 900 feet above sea level.
Those who live 2500 feet above sea level cannot enjoy the ease of baking I take for granted. When a recipe calls for a certain amount of flour, they have to add a bit more of the liquid ingredients. If baking powder is needed, the elevated baker must reduce the amount by as much as half. Baking temperatures must be increased. And it isn’t as easy as following specific directions for a perfect cake either. In order to find the perfect balance of everything, copious testing and many failures must ensue. But, just as the elevated baker is finding the correct balance, a thunderstorm hits and their angel food cake comes out of the oven in the shape of a discus.
Such is life in the baking world and such is the idea behind marriage. What works for one couple will not necessarily work for another couple.
Everyone in the world is familiar with JimBob and Michelle Duggar. They are all over television with their TLC program, as well as having been on numerous talk shows and the subject of many a news story. They tow the line of an organization called the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), and their home schooling program, the Advanced Training Institute (ATI).
IBLP/ATI is run by a chronically unmarried man named Bill Gothard with a storied past, full of scandals. This gentleman has propped himself up as an expert on marriage and everything to do with family life. He is quite the guru with millions of direct and indirect adherents to his ideas. Yes…ideas. Bill Gothard has seven steps to this, fourteen steps to that, twelve steps to everything except alcoholism, three steps to whatever else. The material he puts out is so formulaic, a follower of his has nothing to do but reference any of his hundreds of manuals for any question in life.
As was put forth in ATI material that Michelle Duggar handed out to women at a conference she was speaking at, the formula for marriage is very simple. The wife must worship her husband at every turn in life. She must stand behind him in all his decisions and respect his leadership. She must look at him lovingly whenever he speaks and not interrupt. She cannot argue with him or disagree unless she follows a formula to make a “godly” appeal. All financial decisions are his. All final decisions are his. Her husband’s vision must be her vision and absolute unquestioning trust and faith must be placed in the man she married.
This seems to work well for JimBob and Michelle Duggar. JimBob appears to be an ambitious man and has started numerous businesses. Currently, he is successful at real estate, not to mention the large amounts of money involved in any television show. Trusting a man to make good decisions is very easy when that man works hard, efficiently, smart, and enough to more-than-enough money is rolling in.
The problem is that two people living together is never a cookie-cutter situation. JimBob and Michelle Duggar, as well as all adherents of IBLP/ATI practices, have a favorite line that you will hear whenever they give public interviews or are backed into a corner, defending their ancient and outdated belief system.
“This is simply our conviction.”
No it isn’t. If you dig into the reality of IBLP/ATI/Duggar, you will see what they portray as their conviction is really much more. They posit that, due to their convictions, they have been blessed by God. The obvious conclusion is that if others do not have the same convictions, then God is obligated not to bless them. Thus, the “simply our conviction” line is really a translucent lie.
In 2011, I played on a church softball team. This league was unique in that most of the families showed up to watch their husbands and fathers make fools out of themselves. (Ok, it was really just me making a fool out of myself.) A highlight of the game was the after-party where the home team would bring snacks and drinks and the families enjoyed meeting everyone. My wife and I met a mother of eight children. These children were very poorly dressed and had obvious, easily treatable medical problems (rashes, etc.). We asked the mother how many children she had and she hesitated before she “remembered” that she had eight. The children were well-behaved, but the older girls, around eleven and twelve, were very exasperated while taking care of their younger siblings. The father was nowhere to be found.
I record this scenario here to portray a different side of formulaic marriage and family life as put forth by IBLP/ATI/Duggars. The church league I played in was heavily involved in this mindset and they lived it, even to their detriment. My wife and I went home and began asking the following questions:
- Why is it right to have as many children as God gives you if you cannot support them?
- What if the husband doesn’t listen to “godly” appeals and railroads through all his decisions, no matter the detriment to the family?
- What if the husband is abusive?
- What if the wife has a superior financial mind and makes better decisions in that area?
- What if the husband has no marketable skills?
- What about inflation where one income is not enough?
- What if the wife is not educated enough to sufficiently school the children, and money is too scarce to get assistance?
All of these questions, and many more can be easily answered when you watch JimBob and Michelle Duggar. They don’t have to worry about them because everything appears to work for this family. But this rosy, happy Hollywood story, is far from reality.
Not everyone has a husband who works hard and “gets lucky.” Many marriages work better when all parties handle everything equally. Many marriages work very well when the partners have extended arguments and constructive fights. Disagreement is good in life. Many families struggle to make a living and need all parties to be gainfully employed. Sometimes the spouse needs to sleep on the couch overnight to reboot the romance. I cannot even begin to list all the real life differences from the perfect life formula that the Duggars portray as absolute and necessary. There are hundreds–and they grow exponentially with every passing hour of life.
Happiness in marriage is what the two married parties make of it. It will look different for every marriage. Don’t let anyone tell you that your marriage would be better (or even worse: truly blessed by God) if you only followed their principled life. It just isn’t true.
"Incongruous Circumspection" was raised by his single mother with six other siblings. When he was seven years old, I.C.'s mother went to her first IBLP Basic Seminar and she was hooked. She came home and started down the path of complete indoctrination into IBLP and everything Bill Gothard. This lasted until I.C. escaped at the age of nineteen. I.C. has been happily married for over ten years and has six rambunctious little ones. The family is daily learning what it means to live without formulas. Incongruous Circumspection writes about spiritual abuse, family life, and IBLP/ATI style teachings on his
blog.
July 31, 2024
You hit the nail on the head, brother!
I was an ATI wife and mother of nine. It all sounded so exciting when we first got involved with the basic seminar. I hoped it would change our lives. My husband had been given over to extreme fits of unreasonable anger since the earliest days of our marriage, and I wanted help.I thought Bill Gothard's teaching on asking forgiveness and having other men who keep a man accountable for his behavior would be such a blessing to us. But what really happened was that my husband ignored what he didn't like, such as accountability, learned to "ask forgiveness" in biblical terms, and went right on abusing me, railing on me for the most unexpected causes.
For example, one day I came home after shopping and was shocked when he began to yell at me because I bought dental floss at the grocery store, and didn't make an extra stop at the drug store, where I could have paid (he assumed) a few pennies less. He didn't consider the trouble it would have been for me to make that extra stop, as I was pregnant and had six young children with me who I could not leave unattended in the car.
What he did latch onto were "standards". And the husband's authority and the duty of the wife to submit.Needless to say, things did not improve in our marriage. In fact, he found more fault with me than ever. Now, I was the "contentious woman" any time I wanted to discuss a thing. I tried to "submit", I gave up the radio, reading for pleasure, even visiting my family.(He claimed that they had a bad influence over me.)
So outsiders saw him as a wonderful family man, so committed, so godly in his ways. They probably saw me as a quiet-spirited, submissive wife and mother. Very few ever knew that there was abuse in our home. I didn't even know what it was myself until I saw a book at the library titled "The Verbally Abusive Relationship".(My husband really didn't even like me going to the library much; he called it the "temple of false knowledge".) As I scanned the book, I realized that this was what I had been experiencing all the years of this marriage. It made me tremble with shock and pain. Even now, years later, it makes me shaky and teary.
My oldest son, who was in ATI since he started school, was in his twenties when I got up the courage to bring that book home and read it. When I showed it to him, he got very upset with me and told me that this book was "of the devil" and that I had a problem with bitterness. His reaction was the result of all those years of Gothard's teachings.
Every time we'd be in a church long enough for me to feel comfortable sharing with someone the truth of our lives, and seek help, he would get the ear or the pastor and tell him what problems we were having in our home because his wife wouldn't submit properly. Isn't she supposed to manage the home and keep a wise daily schedule,make menus,shop economically, make lesson plans, cook healthful meals (always from scratch, and always on time according to the wise schedule) all while bearing children, nursing babies, training toddlers, and teaching several children of various ages and abilities. She should be able to handle her responsibilities, shouldn't she. But she won't, because she won't submit!
This is all so painful. We've been married over 30 years, and it has been awful. I now understand that money, power, and reputation are the most important things to my husband. He has been able to cloak all this in a long religious garment, and ATI was part of that covering. We left ATI over ten years ago, but he is still abusive. Right now he is trying to move our family from a good church in our community to a church nearly an hour's drive away because the women in our church are "too liberated". He wants to change to a church that emphasizes the husband's authority more firmly. For the first time, I am resisting him, and feel that I am in the right. Our pastor was counselling him, and he got mad because our pator wouldn't let him put the blame on me any more. He was angry that Pastor nailed him, and said, "You are the problem". Our pastor is supportive of me. Thank God for faithful men.
I find myself drawn to this site, seeking others stories. Somehow, it makes me feel better. Feelings buried alive never die. There's a book by that title. Blessings to you all.
Jane, your post is heartbreaking. You need to leave. I didn't say divorce, I said separate. What you are describing is emotional abuse to the letter. You need a break from this man's mental torment for the sake of yourself and your children.
Hi Jane,
Your story is all so familiar...we weren't with IBLP, but had friends in our church who were involved...and I went to their conference once. We were in a church that believed all these things...a Vision Forum type church who believed in complete submission, husband authority...etc...everything you just mentioned and my husband was the EXACT way as yours. I too started reading those books on abuse (keep reading them - as many as you can. That's what my CHRISTIAN counselor told me) My husband didn't like it. It was giving me new ideas. He was abusive...verbally and was getting to the point of being physical. I left my husband and did not go back until he got help and changed his thinking about our relationship. It was the best thing I could have done. And just remember...God may not like divorce, but he also hates it when he sees one of...or a whole family of his children getting abused. I hope this helps...I am praying for you...
Thank you, Sue, I have come very close to going for a legal separation. The thing is , we still have three children at home, I love our place, and I don't want to lose everything. Also, our grown children who were raised in ATI would be very much against it. I can't take the children to my parents', because they live in another state. I am afraid that if we get into a legal struggle, he'll "cut off his nose just to spite his face". It's a hard place to be.
In the same verse that God stated hatred for divorce, He also stated hatred for cruelty.
Jane, thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing your story. In my opinion, there are definitely times when separation is necessary. Sometimes that is the only way a man will see that there's a problem and that the marriage is in jeopardy. And sometimes it's the only way some men will agree to go see a counselor--which could be extremely helpful in your case. Regardless, it's never right to stay in an abusive situation, for your own sake and the sake of your kids. In the end, it usually causes more harm than good for all of those involved. That's just my two cents though.... Blessings on you as you walk this difficult journey!
Wow Jane, thank you for being open. Your husband needs to read a book entitled "Discovering the mind of a woman " by Ken Nair. I have read this book, and it really opened my eyes as I was very, very abusive for so many years in our marriage(we were separated at the time,and are now back together--it WAS my fault) . The author never said that he worked for IBLP, but said that he was involved in an organization that was very misogynistic-(described a few instances which sound incredible familiar), woke up , and quit the organization.
It IS OK to separate for a time, it might just be what your hub needs,,woke me up,,,,we were apart off and on for about 4.5 years. Our kids are doing many times better now then they were b/f the separation--but it needs to be done biblically---that is--for the purpose of making things better 1 Corinthians 7:9-11 (New International Version)
9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
So Paul says you can separate for a while---you my dear, need rest and restoration. Good luck--we'll pray..
Yes, Ive known that verse for a number of years, and am thankful that God does give us an out when the pressure gets too high and threatens to destroy lives.
There are support groups for abused women. A friend of mine recently was in need of such a group and received support, and some really helpful information. She is now in therapy with her husband. I would also suggest speaking to an attorney. I would imagine that the support group could also help with that. I hope your marriage can be saved, I am not sure I would be able to stay married to such a man. It would take a lot of counseling and change for me to stay. God bless.
Yes, don't be afraid of the "secular world". A shelter for abused women is a good place to start, no matter how many kids you have. You will be safe and have all your basic needs met while you decide what's next. If you need to get out, and have no idea how to get away, and are scared to death, start there.
Oh, Jane! I am so sorry! I would like to invite you to join one of Recovering Grace's "Recovery Groups" on Facebook, at the top of the page. There is one for former ATI parents, and one for former students. Also, if you wish to contact Recovering Grace directly, there are a couple of counselors connected to RG, which they can refer you to. Praying for you!
Jane, your story really pushes a button for me. It is a real mind-trip when you begin to realize that someone has been more interested in controlling you than in looking out for your benefit. If I could wave a magic wand, I would reach in and change your husband's heart from one that demands control to one that offers love and support. Your story touches me in ways I can't even express.
You may not be interested in more resources or "advice" right now, and I am aware of a personal impulse to try to be a "fixer" sometimes - I hope I am not being a fixer here, so feel free to skip the rest of this. Your situation touches on some things from my own background. If I could think out loud, here are some thoughts I've had about these very painful situations -
In our culture, I think a relationship that has the element of religious abuse and control is one of the most difficult places to live out "truth in love." Personally, I think that truth in love involves good boundaries. I really like the image of property boundaries in the book "Boundaries: When to Say YES, When to Say NO, To Take Control of Your Life". They point out that you don't put boundaries on other people to fence them in, rather you recognize boundaries around yourself to protect yourself and those in your care. They have some wise advice, I think.
There is a video available on Netflix that is not Christian but has a lot of wisdom. It is called "Codependence: Overcome Codependency and Develop Healthy Relationships", by Jef Gazley.
Finally, a short little book I've been recommending to a lot of people lately is called "You Might Be a Narcissist If... - How to Identify Narcissism in Ourselves and Others and What We Can Do About It". I saw some people I recognized in there (unfortunately, including myself once in a while! ouch!). I believe the authors present four indicators that someone is being narcissistic in a way that is hurting people. I particularly noticed the comments about someone not feeling empathy for others and not receiving feedback, including constructive criticism, from others. It's an eye-opening and wise book, written by Believers. It is short and easy to read.
You are a survivor, not a victim, friend! God bless your courage and your heart; may your future continue to shine brighter and brighter.
Jane, your marriage sounds like "hell on earth."
God does not call you to submit to abuse. Genesis 3 was glossed over in IBLP. The blame always goes to EVE. My parents still blame Eve for everything. But Adam ate the fruit after Eve and she never knew sin until Adam ate. What happened after they ate? Sin entered. God said '' WHo told you you were naked?'' Who other story here as God didn't tell them their nakedness was evil. No shaming by God.
Then in Romans 5 it says By one man sin entered into the world. World means mankind, not by one woman sin entered.
The man is the head of the home who according to Eph 5, is to give himself like Jesus, who died and gave himself up for it. Who was Jesus? A servant . Men are suppose to serve their wives. BG teaches submission as equal to victimization. Jesus doesn't vicitmize anyone!!!!!! He died for them because He loved them. I am going to say it. Separate from this man. I didn't say divorce, but get out of the relationship and out from this Ungodly order. All we do is show our kids we are a doormat and we have no self worth, we are to be treated this way. That isn't what GOd says. Do not stay in an abusive relationship. Get real help.
Wow. Just wow!
I would love to post this story on my blog. Would that be okay with you?
That would be okay. Thanks for the encouragement
Wow!!! Great article on Duggarization. My husband and I are a perfect example of this article!!!
We are madly in love with each other and I am confident that no one on this planet has a better marriage. Especially not the Duggars, nothing against them but I just know how good we have it.
He doesn't like to make a lot of the decisions, especially about the kids. He doesn't like to tell me how to dress or do my hair, it makes him uncomfortable when I ask his opinion. Because he feels that its my body, I should dress how I like (just like it would be with his buddies).
The finances are all his department, he does all the bills and the shopping. If I do any shopping, I hate it OR I just go with him, then we have a great time.
He actually cooks dinner most of the time, since he does the shopping, he is the one who knows what food we have and so he gets home from work and makes something. If he doesn't think he will be home soon enough, he will call me and ask me to make something. I usually make baked potatoes because that is about all I know how. hahaha
We have a great time together but you can see (and I won't give you more examples but there are plenty) that we don't have anything like the Duggars. But we have the perfect, dream marriage!!!
I'm really happy for you.
I've always thought the Duggar's have had some financial help from IBLP. They are worth many millions of dollars according to some things I've read. Maybe they are just hard workers but it just doesn't compute to me that they haven't had some help especially in building such a fabulous house.
From IBLP? No, but they did receive quite alot from Discovery Networks (I quote from the wikipedia article about them): "They live debt-free,[15][16] which Jim Bob has said is "the fruit of Jim Sammons' Financial Freedom Seminar" he attended years ago (Sammons' Seminar is endorsed by IBLP). The construction of their 7,000 square foot (650 square meter) house was started by the family in 2000 when they bought the land and ordered the frame. Discovery Networks completed it, by finding local Arkansas construction workers to donate their skills and time. The home was completed on January 20, 2006. The painting, decorating, furnishings, appliances, and other finishing touches—such as a stocked pantry—were provided by Discovery Networks and corporate sponsors as part of the one-hour television special[14] entitled 16 Children and Moving In."
And I can personally attest to Bill Gothard making the comment at the Big Sandy ATI conference that TLC has finished their home for them. So no, while they are well-to-do, they have also been helped greatly by the TV networks.
I read the Duggar's first book and they really seem like genuine people. It appears they made most of their money in real estate. Started out in car sales, then real estate, and now commercial real estate, and they say themselves that the network did indeed help them out with the house for the show.
I'm glad to get the info about the network helping them. I don't follow that program but it just always seemed like it didn't fit in with real estate and all that other stuff. Guess maybe I thought real estate had sort of gone by the wayside in this economy.
IC - thanks for sharing. I enjoy reading what you have to say, esp. on marriage.
My husbands cousin is in deep with this stuff. Besides praying for her is there anything I can do?
Hi, Holly. Keep investing in your relationship with her, showing love to her and her family. Meanwhile, if you're not familiar with the lingo and the teachings (and problems with the teachings), please keep reading stories on this site. You can read about the way scripture is twisted, and you can read personal stories that describe the results. As you go, feel free to ask more specific questions of the authors, or send an email to Recovering Grace. Finally, you will probably come across a story that speaks to where she is now, and you may be able to introduce her to this community. Those are the thoughts that come to mind right now. Thank you for caring and wanting to be involved.
I like Jay's thoughts. Praying and building a relationship are key. There's really no easy answer and it can try the patience of Job.
I think there is great power in good questions. I'd say stay curious and keep looking for good questions that will get them to think about the source of various claims and get them to try to honestly examine the things they are accepting. Many of Gothard's claims fall apart like wet tissue paper when you apply any real scrutiny. People get defensive and you don't want to always be on the attack, just look for winsome ways to ask good questions.
I know it's not easy! All the best to you, and God bless you for your caring heart.
Michelle's advice would lead to most men becoming arrogant city. Humans are not meant to be worshipped. My husband would be weirded out if I 'worshipped' him. Yeck. I admire, respect, and adore my husband, but worship? NO. Also, depending on the husband, a woman who practices her advice is ASKING for abuse of some kind.
how true that God does NOT make cookie cutter christians and that trying to be like the Duggars may not be following God's will for your life
case in point-Andrea Yates who drowned her 5 children were quiverful adherents. She was told by her doctor to give her body a break from having kids because hormones were all messed up...to them to do so was to disobey God...and now 5 innocents are gone, she is in prison, husband divorced her, remarried again with a new baby.
How about the missionary families of the mid century---they had one or a few children-left them behind for others to raise as they went into dangerous missionary fields- to do that was considered a high calling from God...were they missing the quiverful blessing?
Peter Marshall, chaplain to US Senate or congress- had only one son? Did he disobey God?
The problem comes when we follow God's plan for other people and not the plan he has for us.
My very first question abour Bill Gothard's abnormality was- why did he stand in front of thousands of people giving marriage advice and be never married?
Bill Gothard, the Duggars- run your mind over history near and far of famous personalities. They buy your attention with appeals to the emotions, not the mind. This is a basic characteristic of the "cult of personality". It works with religion, money, food, talent, health, pet life, beauty, character development, sports, investment, or family guidance.
When you use your mind, not your emotions, as your basis for making decisions, these cultists sparkle out right away- like "marriage blabber by an unmarried man????" I should have listened to my mind screaming out the facts to myself right away- took me a good long while. I get better every day.
Bill Gothard is just one of many abberrants, sorry to tell you. So, so sorry. Watch out even for these guys in the political races. Dig for the FACTS! INSIST! Use yout own heads to find out the truth about everything- use websites, ask questions. In the quiet of your own heart pray cleanly for the truth to be shown to you and the strength to face it as an adult believer WHEN -not if- it comes. Better early than late.
Real love to you all- love means "wanting God's best for the loved one bad enough to die to get it for them." Galatians 2:20
When a couple considering QF sees the Duggars and thinks God will bless them the same way, they are heading into deep waters they might drown in. When QF promised that God will supply all your needs just by having baby after baby, they have also missed that boat. The Duggars have all their needs met due to being on the show and getting paid for it. A regular QF family with only the man working has a much harder time of making ends meet.
I also struggle with QF trying to fit everyone into neat and tidy boxes, boys always do this and girls always do that. God forbid QF has a child with an artistic headstrong personality (creative thinking outside the box) born into their families.
Wow, How would anyone grow as the individual God designed them to be in a situation like a patriocentric family per BG or Vision Forum?
Poor Michelle. I'm willing to bet that there are days she wasnts to "run for the hills" with so many children clinging to her. In one interview, several of the younger children (9-14, both males and females)stated that they loved one another so much they wanted to "marry" to continue to be close.
EWWWWWW! Unfortunately I've heard some pesky rumors over the years, of incest in ATI families. And considering some of the families I've met, it really doesn't surprise me. You suppress the natural, God-given desire for relationships/marriage (and sexuality itself by making it dirty and sinful), and force them to all stay at home with one another, and what do you expect to happen? It's gonna come out some way or other, why else do you hear stories of Catholic priests and little boys? By the way, I don't think that's happening in the Duggar family. I truly don't, and I certainly hope not. Their lives are too public, I doubt anything like that would happen while they continue to be so public.
Unfortunately, that was going on if you have seen the latest reports. Josh Duggar has admitted it and resigned from his position at FRC.
That is not true. I have watched every Duggar episode and every Duggar special, as well as every time they have been interviewed. (Yes, I'm a fan. Doesn't mean I love everything they do. But I like them) The children have *never* stated that they want to marry one another to be 'close'. What a vile thing to say! What *was* stated was that Jackson and Johannah bicker 'like an old married couple'. That was all.
Why make up disgusting things about people? Really, especially about children!
If this site is really going to help people, then the ridiculous nonsense and gossip about people should be removed.
Mrs. Duggar stated "Her husband’s vision must be her vision."
if I my vision were my husband’s vision there would be TWO FULL TIME COUCH SPUDS in this family...my vision is far different from his, even into our retirement...I want to be busy, doing something with my art talent. After retirement, I started a business called Susan's Saddle stands where I design custom saddle stands featuring original equine and western artwork. They are proving popular...meanwhile my husband is doing what he did before, during and after retirement, watching TV/computer.
you are sooo right! I won't lie however, I do live a lifestyle that closely resembles the Duggar's. I have a large family, I homeschool and am, for the most part submissive to my husband. There are TIMES where I have stepped in and said, ok honey, we really don't need four types of transportation... we really can't afford that. For the most part my husband's vision is my vision and mine his... we shared the same general interest for our life and we both believe that this is the reason God put us in each others lives. Neither one of us intended on having a large family, that was LITERALLY a conviction. Not everyone will have the same convictions and that is because God put me on this Earth for different reasons than He put you on the Earth. Just because I say I am very blessed because I have six children does NOT mean that I don't think that you or anyone else is equally as blessed by having one child or two children or no children! The point is that God knows what each of us can handle. And maybe you are right some people may not have that conviction and are using that as an excuse to have fifteen kids because that is what they think will make them look like good people. Because if they did have the conviction to have a larger than normal family they would also have other convictions to be frugal enough to have money set aside for things like dr's appointments, decent clothes and enough food to feed everyone. that is just my two cents.
I enjoy the Dugger family and I believe that satan has conditioned so many of our minds to except what this world allows like sex, homosexuals, cheating, and much more that when God places someone to go against that grain there crazy..my bible backs up most of what they believe and unless you study Gods Word you will not understand a wifes place and if God brings someone in your life instead of us going for what we want then that man will not hurt us and we will not mind standing behind him. We live in a society that says kids are not a blessing and if you want you can kill them..Heres a simple principle stay a virgin until your married and then you and your husband choose how many children you want to have and the outside world has no say so.I personally have 6 children and they are well taken care of and I am not rich but people only see the number.Ill end my thoughts with this a person can choose to live a life that they want without judgement from others and I love that the duggers are doing so.Im not one for following the crowd Jesus didn't.
Has anybody heard of the Harding Family? They have a book out that tells all about them (The Brainy Bunch)---kind of like a version of the Duggar family that has been freed from the rigid Gothard/patriarchy stifling life style.
Here is a Christian family allowing their kids to explore the world, to be different from one another, college educated, their daughters choosing careers like architecture, etc.
My advice to Duggars and those like them, read their book and see that God does not make cookie cutter Christians-you do not have to all follow the exact same plan. Your children are being stifled!
I have mixed feelings about the duggers. My wife and I have 8 children and homeschool and we do enjoy watching the dugger program--just to see how they handle all of their children, etc. However, I do wonder what life would be like for them if they were not in the spot light with the cameras rolling, or if they were poor (like the Bates). And what about dating and courting? I think we have to have a balance and realize that just as healthy birds fly the nest, so our children should be given the freedom to fly to the life that God has for them (including our girls). This decision is personal for each family, and cannot be cookie-cutter or restrictive (no college for girls). I believe that if we have raised our kids correctly with love and discipline then they will succeed in life and be Godly and joy-filled. They must increase and we must decrease.
Jane, your story is very heartfelt and sad. You sound like you really love your family. My question is: How can you be your best self around the family that you love when you are letting another treat you so badly? My mother has been with an emotionally and verbally abusive man for years. He is my step-father. I have seen her reduced to the point that even I cannot fully respect her anymore. I wish she would just do what's best for herself, my 22 year old brother, and I! What she has left of friends and family (not much) can clearly see that leaving him would vastly improve her life. I am not telling you what to do. I wish the best for you and just wanted to tell you my story. I hope you are able to find a solution to your unhappiness.
I'm sorry, but why would you marry a man that you don't respect enough to let him lead you and your family? The Bible is crystal clear that a husband is the head of the household and should make all final decisions. I don't agree with the majority of what Gothard teaches & certainly wouldn't take marriage advice from an unmarried man, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I'm sorry, Jacklynn, but apparently you blissfully haven't experienced and don't understand abusive situations. Be thankful, but try to refrain from judging if you will.
Over 25 years ago, I married someone that I not only respected, but loved. I vowed to love, honor, and obey until death parted us. I just didn't realize that he'd swept me off my feet as part of a grand deceitful scheme that would take me over two decades to recognize. There has been severe verbal, emotional, and spiritual abuse that I was ill-prepared for. My willingness to submit (based on gender roles, and not any proven devotion on his part), coupled with his willingness to take anything I could supply to feed his needs has only prolonged his abuse. To abuse is detestable; to abuse as one hides behind a spiritual façade adds another whole dimension ... "license" to the abuser, and a weakened defense for the conflicted and confused abused.
There is much I regret, but I also thank God that I (as respectfully as I could, but not without accusations) stood my ground many times over the years, and did not make stupid moves that were not wise for my children and myself. My children are in remarkably great shape, and my sanity - though on the brink many times - is intact. God has been gracious beyond reason, and I trust in His sovereignty.
Jacklynn, where do you get the "all final decisions" principle? Where does the husband make any decisions in Proverbs 31? I am complementarian, but I do not see the authority of a husband taught as God's design for marriage. Who makes the decisions after he dies for her? The submission passages can be categorized into two classes: submit to love as is fitting (or "as unto Christ"), and submit to his will for evangelistic purposes (in a culture that had the husband as the legal authority). Augustine's mother is a wonderful example of the second category. Read his "Confessions" where he talks about Monica to understand what I mean by evangelistic.
But the same chapters that tell wives to submit tell children to obey. Why not the same word? And husbands are always told to love their wives, never to rule over them. The husband's "rule" is a curse from Genesis 3. In Genesis 1 and 2 they are given co-dominion, notwithstanding their complementary natures (these reveal both Christ's "bone of bone" common humanity with His bride as well as His "otherness" in His divine nature and His leaving His Father to cleave to His bride).
Finally, in Hosea 2, JEHOVAH Himself says: "you will no longer call me lord (Ba-al) but you will call me husband (Ishi, the word first used for Adam when the first marriage is established)" So how are "lord" and "husband" different in God's design for marriage?
For all these reasons I do not see "submission" as "obedience" or mandated passivity in decision-making. If he loves you he will defer to you on many things, he will NOT make final decisions all the time. And Ephesians tells him to submit to you too!
I don't mean to rock your peaceful world, but many who participate in this website have suffered from abuse of authority within the home and church. Vesting all final decisions in an abusive authority simply empowers abuse.
Commenting late here, too. I agree completely, Don. So much of what we 'see' in the Bible is there because we put certain glasses on when we read it! Happens all the time. We come with something we have been taught by men.
I do not see the 'final decision' thing either. Good heavens, someone just make a decision. Glorify God and love Him in all you do as a couple.
I mentioned to my husband the other day that SO much time and talent and gifting is wasted as we wade through our married lives trying to stay within roles and figure out if he/she should be doing/saying this or that. Exhausting. I don't think that is of primary concern. God has given us a very open outline that we fill in His Spirit (I always liked 'outlines' in school - you know, the kind that directs the report I am writing but lets me fill in the blanks).
In Him we live and move and have our being. May His love, purity, humility, and grace be seen and felt through our lives.
I have never watched the Duggars on TV because I don't believe in so called "reality" TV to begin with. None of those shows are "reality". I have some issues with the Duggars. First, I think it borders on hypocrasy to put yourself on TV while following the teachings of a man that TV watching is wrong. If having a TV is wrong and invites harmful and evil things into your home, then why in the world are you exposing yourself, your family and children on TV as some kind of super Christians family? The second, is that this is all very self serving. I went to their web site and watched one clip. It was about some rare snow storm in Arkansas. Now the clip when between showing the snow falling outside, to Michelle feeding the latest baby and giving Jim a kiss while he told her it was so bad out there to some mall and TLC camera people interviewing total strangers about how Michelle does it being snowed in with 19 children. First of all, Michele is a stay at home mom, she had no plans to go anywhere, she had no job to worry about, her children were already home with her as they are every day. Plus, she has the older ones being buddies/co-parents etc to the younger ones, so again going to strangers and asking them how poor Michelle is managing 19 children in a big snow storm is the height of self-serving promotion I've ever seen. I could only take 2 minutes of this nonsense. But my final concern is putting one's children on TV as some kind of Christian rock star with interviews etc. Really, don't we have enough troubled stories about children starhood and what that really does in the long run and term? Now we have the latest People magazine cover of newly married pregnant Jill and her recently met and married hubby. I guess they have arrived, they are on People magazine. Where does this Christian rock stardom end? I hope for all the Duggar children not in tragedy but I am not so sure. Why doesn't Christianity Today promote this family with articles about the latest possible engagement. Really, why won't Christianity Today stop the rock star articles and start real stories on Bill and IBLP and ATI and how many lives have been hurt?
This is all self-promotion and the Duggars are now just another family style along with Sister Wives on TLC. What great choices we have here. I think i agree will Bill, turn off the boob tube and get back to life.
I am not for the Duggardization of America.
However,What I see though as a mother of 6 are nasty comments and dirty looks in the Christian community. That sin't right either. We pay our bills and we are not on government aid.
It is equally as wrong for Christians to judge me for having a large family as it is for people to judge people to don't.
There is a lot of harshness towards people who homeschool and have a lot of kids. We wear jeans, shorts and listen to the Newsboys, Third Day and Casting Crowns. We even dance at times when we do. My 3 yr old has drums, yes, drums! I find that because BG and other people have gone off the deep end , people swing way the other way. Neither is right. Everyone has their won journey, but we have to keep with the Word.
If someone has a baby and shouldn't have by our standards we have to be very careful, because we can end up saying that child should not have been born. Psalms 139 states clearly that God knew those babies before the foundations of the world. We have now come against that child. Jesus was born to a young girl, unmarried, poor and born in a barn. He was sent to save us from our sin. We must be very careful to judge a child because of the poor decisions. I see this far too often in the Christian church. The children are still wanted by God and they are still His no matter what we think of the family situations. We must be very careful. God convicted me of this sin a while back when a woman in a bad marriage had another baby by a husband who can't keep down a good job. Here she is married. Sex makes babies. She is doing what married people do. She was afraid to tell the women in Bible study she was pregnant. Why should that be? Our judgments were so harsh that as a married woman she was afraid to tell other Christians she was pregnant? Who was I???!!!! She didn't need my judgment and her child can be used for His glory and that baby needs love as much as any child born into a '' Christian approved situation.''
Just saying we need to be very careful as Christians we don't become a legalistic judge and jury in the opposite way that BG followers do.
I am a little late to the table here on your comment, Free at last.
It is a beautiful comment and I say a resounding "Amen." One to remind us to keep an even keel though our boat has been greatly battered through a storm. Otherwise, we are judgmental people that left one group of judging to join another. Thank you. May the love of the Lord Jesus Christ be known in our honest commenting.
I am the one who first commented on this article under the name "Jane Smith". Shortly after I wrote that comment, I did leave my husband and go to a women's shelter, and then moved out of state to be close to my family for their support. I have never had the least desire to return to the abusive marriage I left. My thinking has changed radically since those days of ATI and fundamentalism. I am now a believer in the biblical fact that there is no division in Christ, no more does it matter whether one is Jewish or Greek, slave or free, MALE or FEMALE. In Christ we are one. I am so glad that where the Spirit of the lord is, there is liberty. And that whomever the Son shall make free shall be free indeed.
How interesting reading the comments here about the Duggar family in light of the recent shocking revelations! Have you heard that the second highest alert for the possibility of sexual abuse in a family (after drug/alcohol abuse by the father) is a belief in the traditional roles of males and females.
No, I haven't Tangent. Maybe because "traditional roles" means many different things in our society. I do know that the highest percentage of abuse occurs in families where the biological father does not live with the children, regardless of "roles". If you said that father domineering homes had a high rate, I might agree. But if traditional means the way is generally was done through history before the 1960s, I'd question you. Children are abused where men are weak and/or self-loathing. I don't think it matters how egalitarian or "traditional" that home is. I think it matters a lot whether a father has the moral righteousness and strength to protect the children.
Tangent and Don, I know this is an old thread but i wanted to respond to your comment about traditional roles being a harbinger of abuse. I am a child protective service worker of almost 20 years. When we get a new report of domestic abuse in which the husband is a minister, in law enforcement, or there is a mention the family is devout, the hairs on our heads go on alert. The issue isn’t that the parents are in traditional roles but authoritarianism on the part of the husband, his insistence that his way is the way and he must be obeyed. I have seen fundamentalist families kick out teens for coming out of the closet. I have seen numerous discipline techniques that were abusive and coercive. I’ve heard husbands excuse their own abusive behavior by insisting that “unruly” wives and children were following the devil. These men are controlling and do not want their wives or children to speak alone with a social worker. It’s easy to see the fear in a wife’s eyes when she insists everything is fine. I am not saying that all fundamentalists or believers in traditional roles are abusive. I know that’s not true. But it is a belief system that lends itself to authoritarian abuse.
Thank you letting us know where you are at! There is a Facebook group for emotional and verbal abuse in Christian homes. I would love to see you there and get your wisdom.
Jane, 2 words: DUMP HIM!
I wasn't sure if the home births encouraged by Bill have been discussed anywhere but from what the Duggar's reality shows have put out there, it looks like only Jessa's second child went well. Jill, Joy-anna, Kendal have all ended up at the hospital. Jessa went there on the first one to be transfused from heavy bleeding. Joy-anna's comments on her biggest fears of a c-section I think stem from Bill accusing Doctors of performing them to hurt women's fertility. I remember very clearly when I went a long time ago, Bill stating this as fact. Likewise, all of the Duggar girls and even Kendal who was raised similarly have had real problems in these deliveries. Maybe their diet, lack of exercise and physical activity, young ages may play a role? I don't understand why putting all this out there on reality TV does them any good. Having a TV camera on your face as you wince and cry in pain is just so bizarre and unhealthy. Such a lack of and disregard for privacy. I don't understand Jessa in putting out their on instagram her dirty and messy house. Is she that crazy? I would be embarrassed. For a girl that was raised never to work and always keep a house, Michelle has sure done a heck of a job in raising incompetence here. Your not working, this is all she does, she can't handle it? Poor Joy-anna, I actually feel sorry for her but watching some of these clips of her, where is a great homeschooling benefit? She sounds more along the line of a bimbo. If this family is the valhalla of Bill's teaching, there are some serious cracks with these kids. I do feel sorry for all of them. Yes, I can understand why Jinger states she is scared of child birth and pain, Yes, I wonder how it will go with the latest courtship of John David. While they claim they have "known" each other for years, the reality is that they just met. There is a big difference between know of and actually know in person. The whole thing is so unhealthy. I pray for them.
In our generation today, it is more like; there is no single marriage without troubles. We take it as normal but how to address such misunderstandings is the problem itself. I believe it all happens when we leave behind our Christian values allowing the devil to take control of our hearts... No one wants a marriage-divorce but sometimes it becomes the only option. May God Help us all.
One has to wonder about the married Duggar children and their spouses. It is a pretty horrific that poor Kendal felt like she was a terrible wife the first year because she felt she didn't live up to the unrealistic expectations put upon her by all this rigid formula marriage rolls as taught by Bill and lived out by the Duggars. I sometimes wonder where this is all end for any of them. So a 19 year old girl with no life experience, raise in this nonsense marries into a famous family with cameras always rolling will probably feel terrible and inadequate. Of all the Duggar kids that have married so far, something just seemed very odd about Kendal and Joseph. Behind her pretty smile and his dead pan face, something just seemed very forced. I feel sorry for her and I do all of them.
Do you mean "Kendra?" The girl who married Joseph is Kendra, not Kendal (but I make a number of typos and misappropriations myself - it's no big deal - I know who you meant).
If I can add some here, I believe the issue of expectation plays a lot into these kinds of marriages. Two good friends of mine came from Gothardite families. They followed everything to the letter and got married.
Less than two months after the wedding, he killed her and their unborn child. Bullet through the head. It shook most of my family and friends considerably. This was back in 2008. It is still very difficult to come to terms with it all, because the exact reasons, the motivations, the circumstances themselves, are all in question. No one really understands concretely what happened.
What we do know is that they had some spat, she was gathering clothes from the closet, and he met her there with his gun. She was going to take a break from him. I believe he snapped, he panicked, and he reacted the only way he remembered - he grabbed his gun and took care of it.
So yes. I believe expectations play a big role in all of this. In my friend's case, the expectations on marriage were too much for them. Probably both. He came from a large, Duggar-like family. She was one of only three children. His expectations for how many children were likely much different than hers. But both came from Gothardite families and followed all their recommendations to the letter. No one believed anything bad could happen.
These tales are tragic. They ought to be humbling for any parent (they are for me).
Yes, I mean Kendra, my bad. What a horrible story. All I can think of is O M G. I'm sure they thought themselves as perfect, following perfecting Bill's teachings yet it ends in a murder or actually a double murder with the unborn baby. Hopefully that guy is sitting in jail for the rest of his life and now has to live with the consequences of his impulsive action. I do hope nothing like that will be repeated with any of the Duggars or Bates but has I've looked at their pictures (not the stupid gossip that surrounds them), I really wonder. If Kendra doesn't feels like she is the perfect wife, I think she ought to look at the messy houses her sister-in-laws (Jill and Jessa) have posted on their own on their social media and realize that she is doing better than them I'm sure. All I see is total incompetence there in that these girls were raised to stay home and keep the house and cook but can't seem to cook and clean and stay on task in the home department. They seem to have no shame yet Kendra feels like a failure. Something is wrong with all of them.
I was pondering the duggar dilemma the other day and could only come up with is that they are brainwashed...they all think, act, look alike and think that is god's only way...so sad for them not to have an independent thought or idea apart from what they have been indoctrinated with.