What was your educational and vocational experience?
I never went to college. When I finally moved out at age 25, I struggled a lot to support myself. I had little experience interacting with people outside the Christian homeschool community, and very few job skills. I moved six hours away from my family for a job, which I then lost just a few months later because of difficulties communicating with my employer, mostly because her worldview was so different from my own. I was basically homeless for several months, couch-surfing with my best friend and then later with a family I barely knew from a church I was attending.
How did this situation affect your outlook on life?
I felt like I had been cheated. I felt like I had been groomed and prepared my whole life for a job that I couldn’t just apply for (being a stay-at-home wife and homeschooling mother) and I had no other job skills training to fall back on. I felt so stupid and helpless, like I was just supposed to survive somehow until “prince charming” came to rescue and marry me. I hated that feeling. It felt so stupid to have spent years preparing for a “vocation” that I might or might not ever have. I was so scared. I remember walking miles from a job interview back to where I was staying. (I also did not have a car during this time. I was riding the bus to a temp job that paid barely enough to buy me food. Even if I’d had an apartment it wasn’t enough to pay rent, but I was trying to save up for a deposit so someday I could be independent.) At one point during that walk, I went under a freeway and I remember looking at the underpass and thinking to myself that if I didn’t get a job soon, I might end up sleeping there… it was so scary.
What happened next?
Thankfully, my friend and my church came through, so I always had a place to stay. However, if it hadn’t been for an acquaintance of my family, I really don’t know where I would have ended up. He was a business owner, and when he heard about my situation, he offered me both a job with his business and a place to stay in their house. He also loaned me money to buy a car. After a year and a half of working for the business owner, he retired, so I decided to start my own small business. It met my basic needs (though it was really a hand-to-mouth existence), and it also helped me develop some self-confidence, people skills, and life skills. Eventually I did meet my Beloved and we got married. Later we discovered that due to many factors, it is unlikely that we will ever have natural children of our own. We do want to adopt, but even so it is unlikely that we will have more than two children.
How would you say ATI prepared you for adulthood?
ATI in NO way prepared me for real life, or to be independent. I give them absolutely ZERO credit for my survival in the “real world.” All those years of “training” me on how to manage a household full of children? (Actually I was just slave labor for my parents, helping them manage their household full of children…though they claimed they were “preparing me for my future”…as if they knew my future?) In terms of preparing me for my adult life, it was wasted time. In all likelihood, my future will not look like that. I am not all sorry about my childhood; there were good parts to the experience. I am glad that, as the oldest, I was able to give my younger siblings a better childhood than they otherwise would have had, and I became a very good cook. But ATI did NOT prepare me for my future.
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Carolynn's family joined ATI in 1997. She attended a significant number of seminars and apprenticeship opportunities before starting college, where she began to carefully examine the teachings of the IBLP organization. Carolynn is currently learning what it means to be free in Christ.
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I feel the same way...I was so unprepared for life and I am still trying to get back what I lost with ATI...but it is wonderful to know that I am not alone and that there are others out there who share the same feelings. Thank you for posting
The silly thing about the whole "girls are preparing for homemaking" by keeping them home indefinitely is that housekeeping is just not that complicated. If you had somehow kept your daughter from all chores until she turned 18, you could teach her all the basics in a summer and still let her go to college. (And besides, boys should know the basics, too.) The advanced stuff is so situation-specific that there is no way you can prepare for it--you have to learn what works for your family once you get it. If anything, the time I spent helping out at home (fortunately NOT the only thing I was allowed to do with my single years) gave me very unrealistic expectations of home life, because the dynamics of a family with mostly older children were so different from those of a young family.
The honest arguments for keeping daughters home are fear ("she'll develop an independent spirit"--i.e. discover that there is more to the world than the hyper-constrained version she's been taught and learn to function as an adult) and free labor (er, "she needs to develop a servant's heart").
The thing is, Karen, both (fear and free labor) are what's best for the parent, not what's best for the child. That's a theme I saw all too frequently in ATI.
And it's sad.
Well, I'm sure they have convinced themselves that keeping their daughter away from any other options is what's best for her. After all, if you already know "God's Way," why risk getting distracted by anything lesser?
I know I'm chiming in super late to this conversation.... but I just wanted to add to the point made by Ryan. I think that although the parents often believe keeping adult children at home is to their advantage (due in large part to the fear and free labor that you mention), the reality is that keeping the adult children at home is probably ultimately bad for the parents. Ultimately, having adult children at home contributes to dysfunction in marriages and prevents the husband and wife from enjoying growing closer during their "golden years" where parents should have the freedom of less involvement with children and more time alone together. I've seen a number of enmeshed mother-daughter or mother-son relationships where the mother, instead of working on whatever difficulties may exist in her own marriage, makes her adult child into her emotional support system and companion. The adult child is not free to live his/her own life because the mother controls them with guilt and demands they stay at home, and the marriage between the parents does not flourish because at least one of them is going elsewhere (i.e., to the adult child) to have needs met.
Exactly. Very well stated. Keeping house is not complicated and your time-management skills grow with each child. I found it puzzling when I heard the phrase the 'girls are receiving doctoral level training in homemaking' (vision forum group, but I heard it repeated in local circles). Doctoral level? Really? How? After keeping my own house for over twenty years (easy-peasy) and watching others go through doctoral programs (WOW, it takes ALOT to earn that), I do not see any comparison. I think it sells girls short to teach them that all they can do is manage a household. Perhaps if it was a large estate and she was managing a large staff? Karen, you are spot on with your conclusion.
"…as if they knew my future?"
Wow!!! That is the statement of the day for sure!!! I think even as they say it to us (preparing you for your future) they are brainwashing us to what our future will bring. In other words, "You WILL become a homemaker because that's what WE say you will become."
Thanks for sharing!!! I am so sad that you had to look the overpass in the face and actually think those thoughts.
[...] in her life when Prince Charming did not land on her doorstep wanting to marry her. Link to Post on life after growing up in Bill Gothard’s ATI Share this:ShareDiggFacebookStumbleUponTwitterRedditLike this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]
It might have worked well in an agricultural/farming society. Aka Colonial America. Which, as some may recall, seemed to be Gothard's ideal. It seems that was the era he actually wanted to live in, and wanted us to help him recreate it.
I think you may be onto something there. I've noticed that through the Vision Forum teachings. They seem to be almost obsessed with the past, and they hold that time period up as some kind of perfect ideal. As if there were no crime, worldliness, or sin back then! The world has changed, like it or not. I sometimes think you can become so "set apart" from the world that you no longer know how to function in it or positively impact it.
In some respects that time period was a perfect ideal - if you were Anglo-Saxon, wealthy, Protestant and male.
I bet that most people who fall outside those parameters (myself included) don't pine for a return to the "good old days."
"In some respects that time period was a perfect ideal - if you were Anglo-Saxon, wealthy, Protestant and male."
Hahahaha!!! Right on!
In my opinion, Vision Forum is the next IBLP.
I think it's important to note that this lack of life preparation isn't confined just to the girls/women in ATI.
Today, I still struggle with properly maintaining my finances. I was never taught anything about money, except for the fact that there was never enough.
Additionally, even though I know my own decisions and not Bill or my parents, I have to believe that my first marriage would have turned out MUCH differently (and quite possibly never have even happened) had I not been so sheltered growing up in ATI...
Bill and ATI destroyed my family... I'll never get back what he and ATI took. I only wish criminal charges of some sort could be brought against this devil for his wrong doings.
I'm grateful for the other stories and postings here - helps immensely knowing that I'm not alone in this...
I grew up in an unbelieving home, very dysfunctional, highly feministic. The teachings I received as a young adult from various sources that promoted biblical teachings of the husband assuming role at the main provider and wife assuming role as homemaker...and caring for young children has helped me and my family immensely. I have read or heard that the most significant/influential relationship in a child's life is the like-sexed parent. I've also read or heard that each child needs a strong relationship with each parent and one of the keys that often keeps college-age kids from straying is a positive, deep (emotional) bond with parents (I would say at least one). From my experience and what I have observed, this is very difficult to achieve in today's post-Christian era when the mom is working outside the home and also, if there are many kids in a family. Each person and family is uniquely gifted by God to do his will, so I am just talking in general terms, from my experience and observations over the years. Relationships take time, focus and energy, which involves prayer -- so many thoughts have come to me while working at home, communing with the Lord, without having to deeply think as I would in a profession outside, as I did before I was married. I have a college degree. We had a child within a year of being married, so I didn't continue working. My husband and I have sacrificed a lot financially and are still sacrificing so that I can be at home full-time. I know that this is not possible for many these days. For us, I did work part-time for a while, mostly home-based, but I found the job to be very consuming (felt full-time) and am so thankful that that season is over. I am so thankful to be able to focus on my relationships with God, my husband and children and that we can intentionally minister, independently and together, in and through our local church and in other avenues the Lord leads us in.
There are a multitude of extremely serious and damaging problems with Mr. Gothard and his teachings and I deeply believe that what has been done through Recovering Grace has been needed!!! Thank each of you. I am praying. However -- I do want to say that I, and am sure many others, have been helped to some degree. I was so marginally involved, only attending one seminar, my husband -two, we have materials that we have read... but some of the general principles have been helpful because we never took the extreme and were simultaneously in relationships and received good, balanced teaching from healthy individuals, churches and ministries.
I cannot believe I just stumbled upon this article. I am going through this exact experience right now. To the letter.
I was not familiar with the term "ATI" until reading this, as that wasn't an organization I heard of growing up. I was, however homeschooled in a very strict and religious family and organization, and many of the themes being mentioned here by the author and the commenters were central to my childhood.
I cannot remember doing much of anything else except constantly labouring for my parents, and feeling that university was an unnecessary negative in ones life.
I'm 23 now, and am on my own. I am extremely independent in many ways, am well travelled and experienced, but in so many aspects I feel completely left in the dark with the basics of life. My education is a nightmare. I don't know how my parents got away with it, but neither myself nor my siblings have any real, documented education to launch our lives upon. After grade eight, I remember education being entirely left to ourselves to administer between working for my parents, and many many breakdowns from not knowing where or how to seek guidance or tutoring. Anything passed grade eight is quite foggy, and again, undocumented.
I would really like to speak to someone. Anyone who can relate to what I'm saying and can offer discussion and perhaps advice. ..I feel incredibly depressed at this stage of my life, and have gone so far as to write out my suicide letter, and consider my method of departure.
I just need to speak with someone who understands this background. Thank you, I appreciate any responses.
Dear Anonymous,
We are very sorry to hear about how discouraged you are feeling. We replied to your email and are directly posting here in case you read this response first.
If you want to share your experiences in the RG comment section, some readers may be glad to respond. There are many former students who know the pain and difficulty of building a life after a background similar to yours.
In addition, we want to voice our concern for you. It's never too late to get help from people who care and are trained to help.
We are not able to provide a counseling service here at RG, but there are a number of helpful sites for finding a counselor to help. If you feel you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or go to the nearest hospital emergency room.
Here are some sites that have been recommended to us that you might wish to explore:
Find A Counselor: www.findacounselor.org
Grace Counseling: www.gracecounseling.net
International Association for Suicide Prevention (IASP) - Resources: http://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres
Many helplines are available to talk to you - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They're open right now, and they want to help you with how you're feeling.
Please, give one a call. You're never alone, and will always be able to find a friendly person who genuinely wants to hear what you have to say.
Dear anonymous,
I am grieved to read of your situation. I am 60 years old, which probably sounds ancient to you, but this one thing I know. God is faithful. I stumbled upon this sight too, but I really believe it was Gods direction, not just a random event. In my case it has helped me understand some of the practices and theology I've encountered among a wide circle of Christian friends and acquaintances. I used to wonder "where do they get this stuff" referring to the legalism and rules for life. I've been amazed at what I've read and learned.
I do not believe you just stumbled upon this site either. There is a purpose in finding out you are not alone. Others have walked the same road. My growing up experience was completely different than yours. I grew up in a loving Christian home, and I was expected to go to college. After graduation, jobs were hard to find. I took a minimum wage job, even though I had a bachelors degree. It all worked out, other opportunities came along, and I truly believe they were God directed. In your situation I would encourage you to visit a nearby community college and speak to an admissions counselor. I know most community colleges offer remedial courses. This might be a place for you to start.
We have all traveled dark valleys. Please do not give up. I don't know if your faith is intact, or if it has been severely compromised, but Jesus will never disappoint. He calls us to come to him and he will give us rest. He is the faithful one. I will be praying for you.
Dear Anonymous,
Your letter makes my heart hurt. I know people who like you have been poorly served by their homeschool experience, and have given them advice on getting their educational career back on track. Perhaps some of that advice will be useful to you, too. If I totally miss the mark, I apologize in advance!
The first thing to remember is that there is no reason to be ashamed of where you are in life. It is not your fault, or your doing, and the fact that you are well-traveled and independent speaks volumes about your own skills and strengths. These will serve you well as you move forward, which you can and will do! Your comment here is well-written and logically formulated, and you are entirely capable of educational success.
I would urge you to go meet with a counselor at your local community college. There may be some initial embarrassment, yes. But you'll find that there are many people, who for lots of different reasons (health issues, dropping out, language barriers) need to 'catch up', just as you do! If for some reason things don't go well with one counselor, just ask for another one. Don't let it stop you. Now, *you* are in charge of your educational experience.
Starting out with classes, even remedial ones, will also introduce you to a different set of people and help you catch up on the cultural knowledge that homeschoolers who have been too isolated lack. I've noticed that sometimes their worries about cultural ignorance can be more paralyzing than worries about their educational ignorance. Don't worry that you'll be socially rejected because you do or say something that seems foolish. Everyone, no matter their education level, puts a foot wrong sometimes socially, and there is no shame in it. But also don't feel like you have to take on the attitudes of your new friends, or like everything they like, just to fit in. Once again, *you* are now in charge of the people that you allow to have influence in your life.
Perhaps you feel stuck where you are. I would encourage you just to make a start, with a counselor, with a class---any class! take photography, or film!--at a community college. Once begun is half done, an auntie of mine used to say. Try not to project too far into the future, worrying about semesters of classes or what your ultimate career choice will look like; all that will come in time. For now, just begin.
If you're still open to spiritual matters I'd like to share a couple of things that have help me when I struggle to move forward: one is the remembrance that the truth sets us free. This of course is a reference to Jesus but also reminds me to *own* the truth about my own life, to acknowledge where I'm at and accept and address it rather than being paralyzed by wishing things were different.
The other is learning that God enables me as I go. If I sit and wait for strength before I begin I may never find it, but it is always there once I start.
Many, many blessings and prayers coming your way.
This site can be helpful for finding a Christian counselor: https://store.aacc.net/ccn/ccn_search.php
Dear Anonymous,
Please let us know you've read our comments to you. We really do care about you, and are praying for guidance on your journey to wholeness.