“What does this song remind you of?” my husband asked, as the song Take My Breath Away played on the radio station.
I thought for a second before responding, “I don’t know. — Nothing, I guess. What does it remind you of?”
He laughed. “Top Gun!”
“Oh.” I said, feeling that familiar embarrassment overtaking me. “I’ve never really seen the full movie.”
He smiled his understanding.
Most people wouldn’t understand how someone born in 1979 could have grown up in America without seeing such a classic movie. My life seems to be an exception that is difficult to explain. Often I just tell people “My parents were really religious. I was very sheltered.” But to be honest, that just doesn’t cut it. It doesn’t do justice to the fact that my ability to relate to the pop culture of most of the 80s and 90s is almost non-existent. Those two decades are a mystery to me.
I don’t know Debbie Gibson’s songs. I never had a New Kids on the Block tape. The only reason I know Michael Jackson’s song Billie Jean is because I missed that Humdinger in Cranium because I didn’t know it. Yup. I know it now. People laughed me out of the room in disbelief. I’ve never seen Ghost. I know Patrick Swayze is in it. And I guess there must have been someone who was a ghost.
Growing up, I wasn’t allowed to watch The Smurfs — there’s a wizard. I couldn’t watch Scooby Doo — there were ghosts. I couldn’t watch The Flintstones — Barney and Fred lied to their wives. I couldn’t watch Fraggle Rock — I don’t know why, maybe because it was just strange. I never watched Alf or The Gremlins or E.T. or The Simpsons.
I wasn’t allowed to go to dances. Moving ones body in time to music could cause another person to look at you in a manner that might lead to sexual immorality, you know. And sex in any context is bad. Unless you are married. And then since it was never talked about and repressed, good luck figuring sex out — much less enjoying it.
Sometimes the resentment I feel can be overwhelming. All the things I couldn’t do. All the “firsts” I missed or experienced terribly late. The school dances. The concerts. The movies. Everything was evil. Bad. I developed the world’s largest guilt button.
I’ve been “out” of that overprotective, stifling subculture spurred by my family’s involvement with ATI (the Advanced Training Institute) for 15 years now. I’ve acculturated well to mainstream “normal” life. But it has taken time. And I have made a lot of mistakes!
Advice I would give to someone who wants to know how to relate in a foreign world:
- Don’t “overcorrect.” You know how when you skid on a road while driving and, in an attempt to keep moving forward, you steer too far in the opposite direction? That can happen in real life, too. Some people try to go from conservative extreme behaviors to liberal risky behaviors — experimenting with drinking, sex, trusting the wrong people, etc.
- Take baby steps. Extremism is what brought you to the point you are at. The change will take time.
- Laugh at yourself. Be kind to yourself and ask questions when you don’t know something. Others will, no doubt, react incredulously at times when you don’t know a common reference to pop culture or a slang phrase. Just tell them that you were raised in a family that overprotected you from everything, and laugh along with them. Google is your friend, as is Urban Dictionary.
- It’s normal to feel abnormal. Seriously. Everyone feels it at some time or another. It’s not just us! There really is no such thing as “normal.” We all live our lives in mini subcultures, whether they are defined by religion, ethnic background, age, or geography. Some are more exclusive than others. But we all live on a spectrum of sorts. There is “average” behavior, or what is expected in social situations, but there is no “normal.” Seriously. Every individual in this world feels out of place at some point. It is human nature to desire a sense of belonging, to escape our aloneness, and to be part of a group.
As I continue to work my way out of the overly sheltered life I led growing up, situations like the one I described at the beginning of this piece become less and less frequent. And I find it easier to laugh at them. Hopefully, those who share similar growing up experiences will, too.
Wow! "Google is my friend..." I can so relate to that line. :) I cant' count the many times I've referred to Google after someone mentioning or talking about something like that that I didn't understand...(and doing it somewhat secretly too...either afraid someone would find out I didn't know about whatever it was and think I was weird...or else afraid someone like my mom would find out...you know, how could someone from my family possibly be looking up stuff like that...even if it was just about a popular Christian artist...)
Did I or one of my siblings write this? I can ABSOLUTELY relate! Yeah, and trying to explain it is awkward too, I just tell people, 'I was really sheltered growing up, think Amish-in-the-city." That usually seems to cover it pretty well, without having to go into the dirty details, they immediately understand, and somehow this takes away the 'let's make fun of this person for how they were raised.' element.
I know the point you are trying to get at and while your parents went over the top, there are things that parents should protect their children from. It's part of our job as parents. Children have no discernment and readily accept what is told to them which is one of the points brought out in this website about bad theology. There has to be balance here. I'm not letting my kids read or watch Twilight just because it's part of present pop culture (okay now getting dated but you get my point).
Often, the same level of "protection" was given to 15-18yos as was given to 5-10yos. I would have loved to have been taught how to navigate life in the reality I was going to face, instead of being protected/shielded and having to figure it all out on my own after I was in my 20s.
Yes, thank you Lora. 'Often, the same level of "protection" was given to 15-18yos as was given to 5-10yos.'
That is the distinction here, therefore the problem. When I was 21, I and two siblings (aged 20 and 19, respectively) attended a triple birthday party for some church friends, at a friend's house. I think the only reason my mom let us go was because she'd met a one of the birthday girls, and thought well of her. We had a 10:00 curfew. We were two minutes late for curfew, because of traffic. My dad was not happy, and said, 'I give an inch, you take a mile.' (that seemed to be a standard response for any minor infraction). Fortunately we didn't get in trouble, I think we were able to explain it away, and they simply said not to let it happen again.
Later, I was telling my mom about who was at the party, (party goers were anywhere from 18-28, and there was at least one set of parents present.) When my mom heard that there were young people (who did she think we hung out with, middle aged couples with kids?), she whirled around and almost snapped at me, 'WHERE were their parents?!!!!" I was amazed, and actually somewhat offended. These were adults I was talking about, I don't think there were ANY underage people at a CHRISTIAN birthday event, and why would it have been necessary for anyone's parents to be there anyway? It was a BIRTHDAY PARTY for goodness' sake.
I did not say any of that, because I didn't think I could say it politely or respectfully, and merely said, "Um, mom, these were college kids, and a few of them were married couples." she calmed down somewhat, but I was amazed at the absurdity that she thought grown men and women ought to be under their parent's supervision all the time, SIMPLY because the young adults in question were not yet married... (how you were supposed to find a mate with such rules... I digress.)
To further point out the paranoid, ridiculous thinking, there was another incident where I'd been invited to a Bible study at a friend's house, and mom was asking me about it, who would be there, what would happen at the Bible study.. (why on earth to I have to explain what a Bible study is?) And I mentioned that there would be good food and games after the Bible study, and mom immediately said, "Oh, Heather, I don't know about this... I'm not sure I have peace about this. Do you have any idea what goes on at Bible studies?" I thought, but did not say, 'Um, well, they talk about the Bible, and will probably pray at some point in the meeting...' Instead, knowing the way mom thinks, told her, 'so n so will be there, you know her parent's would never let her go to anything questionable, and Mr. and Mrs. so n so will be there too.' (a middle aged married couple.) Mom calmed down and gave me permission to go. I was 22. That's TWENTY-TWO, still being treated like a 7 year old who couldn't be expected to be mature, or wise, etc.. And I was the good child of the family, seriously, I really was.
The way my mom acted, I think she probably thought that an unscrupulous man would try to seduce me, slip me a rape date drug, etc... around 20 or so other Christians? Sheesh... I wasn't even that stupid, if anything, I was pretty paranoid of 'questionable people' and situations myself, and my mom KNEW this about me... Ugh..
At what point do parent's trust the Lord with their ADULT children, and perhaps even trust that their offspring has grown up and is a fairly responsible person?
Anyway, I apologize if this post seems 'ranty', but I thought it might be good to give real life situations/scenarios, to clarify what people mean when they talk about not over sheltering kids. (perhaps I should say 'young adults'.)
Funny, I grew up watching all those movies, went to the dances, did all the "firsts" at the "normal" time ... and then got saved. I regret a good 75% of what I did that was "normal" .....
To complete the thought...I grew up non-ATI and experienced normal pop culture, but had a relationship with Jesus from age 8. So I chose not to do everything that my friends might have deemed "normal"...and have few regrets related to that part of culture. The difference seems to be living in Christ. Apart from Him I know I would have made different choices.
I would have to agree with "grateful." I did not grow up in ATIA, but did attend several of the Seminars, and our kids went to the Children's Seminar. I wasn't restricted by anyone from seeing or doing any of the things you mentioned in your story, but I didn't do them because I wasn't interested in doing them. I never saw it a as a deficit, because I still have no burning desire to see Top Gun, get a NKotB or MJ CD. :-) I didn't do those things because they didn't interest me. I am sure that you have done many things that other people have no experience with, and that doesn't make you weird. If we were both exactly the same, it would be a very boring existence. I don't discount your regrets, and I do think there have been many bad outcomes directly related to the whole Seminar/ATIA package for many people.
Keep in mind that the only consistent representation of "normal" is a setting on your dryer.
I guess I would have to agree with "grateful". I still have never heard of Debbie Gibson. Guess I'll have to look her up. I was not in ATI but frankly, I just wasn't interested in all that kind of thing. When I was a junior in high school (1956) I had to admit to some girls on a bus that I had never heard of Elvis Presley. I was already a believer and that just didn't interest me. So guess normal is what is normal for me.
Arlice, you are a bit younger than my Mom, so I'll try to add a little context. If you had grown up ATI, you wouldn't have been allowed to Hula Hoop, at least not around boys. You were probably too old for Barbie...but if if you'd bought any for your daughter, you would have to burn them. Frankie Avalon et al would have been off-limits. Perry Como's music would probably be okay, but not his TV show...too much skin. Your family also could not watch I Love Lucy or The Honeymooners because the wives lied/didn't respect their husbands. And forget about Cinderella and Disney...with all that witchcraft. Not sure if the Mouseketeer girls would pass muster either. That might just leave Howdy Doody.
And for some, any tv at all was pure evil, even praise and worship (before the Christian contemporary) was taboo for awhile because it has a livelier, more upbeat tune. Barbie was definitely evil. (of course in some cases there may be cause for legitimate concern.. Barbie should put on a few pounds.. lol) but I digress... Winnie the Pooh and the 'Jesus' videos, and Mr. Rogers were just about the only thing we were allowed to watch when I was little. Etc.. What we are referring to as normal, in some cases is simply a pleasant childhood. There were times when we had less than an hours worth of playtime per day, chores, chores, chores, and when those were finished, let's create some new chores to keep you busy, (such as bleaching the porch ceiling) because when you're outside playing, you aren't under my complete control... sigh.
Yes i saw the point of her article and agreed with it. Just pointing out that there were things that didn't interest me even before Gothard came on the scene. My mom loved to Hula Hoop. I could never do it and tried but she was good at it. My daughter wanted a Barbie so we got her one. I spent weeks making fancy clothes for her for Christmas and then my daughter decided she wanted to give Barbie to a girl in a family we were "adopting" for Christmas. So the clothes went with her. She never asked for another Barbie. I do know people who have been in ATI and I see for some it was like the military. For others it didn't keep them from the movies or even a little wine. Guess they could keep it a secret. Sorry that some of you didn't feel "normal".
I didn't grow up under ATI, but after coming to faith, I attended a Calvary Chapel with heavy Gothard influences. Little did I understand why many things there for years didn't "pass muster" in my spirit. Sadly, I was drawn into the lie that I was pleasing God and didn't realize how this "system" and its formulas were twisting God's heart. This "out of the box kinda girl" was shoved into a mold -- and the only thing that should be in a mold is Jell-O! I could write a novel on some of the things that went on and how twisted it got. Beginning to write about this actually is pretty healing so thanks for letting me rant. My point is that this "system" taught (either directly or in many incidious ways) that ANYTHING outside was dangerous -- movies, TV, books, magazines, music, dress, Bible teachings from anyone outside the Calvary system etc. Uniformity became the unwritten mantra. It was always interesting the way the body of that church postured to make sure they all looked "holy" to one another in their behaviors....and then you would find out their walk and their talk didn't match. Imagine that! We have to understand the culture around us to be able to form relationships and reach people for Christ. Being relevant doesn't mean you are "of the world" and there is a huge difference between protecting and sheltering. If I remember correctly, Jesus was hanging out with the tax collectors and prostitutes and yet never sinned....in the world, not of the world. He loved on those who were considered "unlovable" and didn't stuff his head in the sand. He loved them so much and met them right where they were at. By looking down our noses as those around us who may represent a part of our culture that we deem "evil", we make ourselves irrelevant and ineffective for Christ. I am ever thankful for recovery sites like this that have truly been the missing pieces of my spiritual injury puzzle. Thank you, Joy, for sharing your heart on this issue. I still feel resentment too at times toward the system I was in and its leadership -- not only because I myself was fooled, but also many of things I started to deprive my own children of -- and all because a "man" led me to believe I was pleasing God. I'm forever thankful that God spoke loud and clear through some very painful circumstances. I'm holding onto the knowledge that He makes all things new and my walk with Him is now forever changed! Recovery is a loooooong and painful process. I never realied that God could hit the reeset button in our faith, but He did and I'm thankful for that. He loves me and I've started over again with that one simple truth -- just like when I fell in love with Him in the first place!
I don't think anyone is saying you have to let your 5-year-old watch Top Gun, in order to be a good parent. Or that you have to participate in sin in order to be culturally relevant. I think the author is making the point that cultural relevance, in and of itself, is not wrong, and (dare I say?) even helpful to one's witness. No one likes to be weird or different, just for the sake of being different. Yet, this is what many of us were forced to be. As a result, we have a lot of catch-up to do on modern culture, just to do something as simple as carry on an everyday conversation.
Because it just doesn't work to tell the people around you, "I don't care about your culture, background, or what inspires you... But I care about YOU!" -- and expect them to believe it.
Agreed, "Hannah"! I always found it odd in ATI that Hudson Taylor was lauded as a hero when he did the exact opposite of what we were taught to do. So while HT adopted Chinese dress and living conditions so that he would be more relevant among the Chinese (unlike the vast majority of missionaries in China at that time), we were 16 and 17 year olds parading around in navy blue suits, listening to music that even our grandparents would have considered old fashioned.
And while I certainly wouldn't let my 5-year-old watch Top Gun either, it's a completely different thing to forbid my 25-year-old from watching it.
The first is good parenting, the second is probably overbearing/controlling and not letting your "child" learn how to be lead by the Spirit, which was one of the biggest flaws of the way authority and honoring one's parents was taught in ATI.
Well said. What began to bother me wasn't that we choose by our relationship with the Lord not to participate in different activities, but that we were constrained by a human outside influence rather than trusting the Holy Spirit to guide us. Great discussion.
I think this gets to the heart of the matter. I've never been involved with ATI but we know families who are. I was saved when I was 35 and regret much of what I watched, read, and listened to, immersed as I was in the pop culture of the day which is full of corruption. I choose now to avoid many of those kinds of things because the Spirit of the Lord has changed me so much and is still changing me - the way I think, what I love, my desires. I homeschooled my daughter and I did shelter her from much of pop culture but the older she got, the more I allowed her to be aware of what was out there, and even to read books and watch movies that contained things I disagreed with. We would talk about it and discuss what was right and wrong in the light of God's word and had some wonderful discussions. It's important to listen to your children and give them some credit for being able to reason and think, especially once they reach the age of 12 or so. My daughter is 24 now and makes her own choices about what to read, watch, and listen to. Her choices are quite conservative - but not out of guilt or to please any human authority. As you say, Dona, it's about being led by the Spirit of God and delighting in what He delights in because He is so good and He loves us so much.
I think it does change the issue if it was your choice to be active in (or skip taking part in) the culture, or if not participating was used as a manner of control by others in "authority." It is one thing to have regret. It is another thing to not have the skills necessary to navigate and advocate for oneself in normal scenarios.
If you do not have the opportunity growing up to develop the normal skills to make good choices, how will you be able to make good decisions when it is necessary for survival? Or make any decisions at all? The recipe of someone else (parental or otherwise) making all of a child/young adult's choices without allowing them to develop normal skills (all the while instilling high levels of guilt or fear) is a recipe for disaster. Experiencing high anxiety and stress in just deciding to do something that others would consider normal (as in register for a college math class like I did today) is not healthy or the sign of good healthy parental influence.
Yes, we are all different, but I believe being different can be hindering and detrimental if avoiding every cultural norm is so consistently, deliberately and negatively enforced over a long period of time.
Thank you for sharing. This has been one of my biggest challenges trying to integrate into the world after leaving home. I struggle to fit in with my peer group still because of just how sheltered I was. Radio, TV, CCM, most movies, entire genres of books, video games, the internet - there is so much that I never experienced. Some of it I've learned since, but there are some things you just truly had to experience back then.
For me, it's been one of the lasting hurts from my growing up years - one that can still turn around and bite me out of nowhere.
Fraggle Rock had imaginary creatures singing ROCK MUSIC; "rock" is even in the title. The theme song was "Dance Your Cares Away", an admonition most firmly rejected by conservative parents. I wasn't allowed to watch it either. Along the same lines, "Schoolhouse Rock" was forbidden too. I was an adult before I ever heard, "Conjunction Junction, what's your function?"
Oh, THAT'S what it was! Yup, I should have been cued in by the name itself "Fraggle ROCK"! Thanks. :)
Love this post. I totally relate to all these feelings. My family is out of ATI now, but as a senior in college I'm still trying to figure out everything I missed in the 90s and early 2000s. I feel mostly out of the loop with music and movies. Usually I just smile and play along, because being "outed" as ignorant produces nothing but laughs...and sometimes I still have a hard time laughing at myself in that situation. I feel like I was incredibly deprived as a child, and sometimes I still feel angry about that.
I wish I had had a prom, a high school graduation, favorite bands as a teenager... Those are things I can never catch up on or have. I will never have those stories or memories. To some extent I can learn movies and music, but I had some dreadful teenage years simply because I was forced to be such an extreme outsider. Being constantly in the "them" and not "us" camp hurts after a while. I'm not talking about the sinful parts of secular culture. Just the typical, everyday growing up experiences. It still hurts and I still feel lonely.
Several people have commented on how they didn't have the restrictions those of us growing up in ATI had, and yet they still chose not to watch/participate in normal things because they were not interested. To them I say, good for you. BUT. This is a terrible comparison to us. We may not have experienced the same things, but the big (and vastly important) difference is this: You CHOSE that. We did not have the opportunity to do so. We weren't given the luxury of being ignorant because of our own disinterest. Our ignorance and lack of experience was forced on us.
I think about this all the time. Maybe I wouldn't have gone to my school dances had I actually gone to high school anyway. But that's not what matters. What matters is that I wasn't given any opportunity. I'll never know. I didn't grow up in ATI. We didn't join until I was 13. My parents were always on the more conservative side of all the kids my siblings and I went to school with at our Catholic schools (I was raised Catholic until we joined ATI and went IFB), but I still grew up watching my siblings date, and my sister go to dances, and all the excitement that went along with said dances. Then I was suddenly not allowed to do any of the stuff she'd done.
Yes, it's hard to be ignorant by force, and not by choice. I can't tell you how many times people look at me funny because I have this gap in my cultural knowledge. I was born in 1983, but I'm ignorant of almost anything cultural that happened between 1996 and 2006. Even when I did go to school, it was difficult because I was literally the only kid in my class not allowed to watch Full House or Saved By the Bell. But in any case, it's hard living in a society in which you are ignorant of even the more wholesome music and movies from various eras in which you were alive.
Please don't take away from our struggles just because you CHOSE not to participate in the same things from which we were forced to abstain.
I didn't mean to imply that at all but you are so right. I did choose and that is a huge difference. I had opportunity to do proms and hated it. So I didn't let my girls do it even in public high school. I think they still hold a bit of a grudge because of it. But no one made me do or not do those things. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise. This site has opened my eyes to ways I was influenced by IBLP even if we weren't in ATI. I still have to fight it sometimes and say to myself, "That sounds too much like Gothard."
I am astonished when reading some of these comments (as well as the article itself) that anyone would be so distressed that they were protected/prevented from a pop culture that is not only antithetical to Christianity but whose main purpse seems to be to steal, kill and destroy all that is honorable and pure. We're talking wood, hay and stubble here folks. You should be grateful you didn't waste time and brain cells on the garbage. Believe me, I speak from experience - I wish I would have spent my teen years memorizing scripture rather than being able to quote all the lines from Airplane! and sing Higheway to Hell verabtum. Sorry for the rant, but shouldn't we have an eternal perspective as believers?
grateful, honey, when you are FORCED to memorize Scripture, and beaten over the head with guilt if you don't do it fast enough, thoroughly enough, or even if you did it too fast, it really makes you not want to open a Bible once you get on your own. That's part of the problem here. I have asked most of my siblings if they struggle with the desire to have quiet times and Bible studies, and most of them have said that they do struggle with it, directly because of those early experiences.
I myself long to read the Word, and am terrified to do it because of the years of watching my parents faithfully have a quiet time/Bible study, then turn around and abuse us in many different ways, calling themselves Godly, when really their behavior exhibited no fruit of the Spirit in any way, shape or form. It's difficult to really trust in God when such was your experience. I'm a work in progress, and I'm working on getting the courage to open the Bible, and trust that God will lead me to something better than what I grew up with. This is the crux of the matter.
(I might add, that forcing your unsaved child to do the Scripture memorization is potentially dangerous, if you are not very careful in how you do it.) Do not think that memorizing Scripture equates to Godliness. It DOESN'T. Not in and of itself. If the Spirit of God is not there, what profit is it? Atheists have read the Scriptures, and memorized it, and still rejected it, and are they godlier for it? Not at all.
Just pointing out another perspective. I'm not bashing memorization at all, just so you know.
Grateful, culture is not right or wrong, it just is. There may be portions of it that are wrong and/or that some Christians will not feel comfortable participating in. That doesn't make the entire culture wrong. We were pretty much forcefully sheltered from the entire culture. Not only had I not seen Top Gun, I didn't even know what it was. Insert just about any other pop culture reference with similar results. It would have helped me relate to people, to at least have some awareness of the culture that the people around me call home. There is a balance, here... One that was missing in the home I grew up in.
"Hannah" - You've made a really important point. Though there really is so much garbage out there that's harmful to watch, read and listen to, I think it's very helpful for parents to not only allow their children to be aware of much of it, but even to inform them of it - taking age and maturity into consideration of course. As they grow into their teens, you can watch some movies and shows along with them and talk about the issues. (Some things are just too corrupt for anyone to watch - you have to use discernment.) Young children will often feel very conflicted and confused if you try to do this with them but teens are ready to exercise their budding powers of reason and can learn and grow immensely from having such conversations with their parents. We need to accord them the respect they are due as the young adults they are becoming.
'We were pretty much forcefully sheltered from the entire culture.' May I add, that in so doing, a new 'culture' was created for us, so really we were following BG's culture, comparing ourselves to other families within it, trying to measure up to everyone else's standards. So really, in a backwards way, we WERE doing the very thing that our parent's were trying to avoid.. A classic case of 'pick your poison', I guess. And for those who would argue that the BG culture was more pure than our current one, let me simply assure you, on the inside, it was JUST as lethal as the so called 'secular' culture of today.
I was raised in ATIA and had the opposite experience of "kit." I didn't get to do much as a teen and then as an adult have watched my younger siblings do what I longed to do. Yes, it is hard to look back and wish things had been different: to wish I'd been given a more thorough education or that I could have participated in more outside activities. I am ignorant of much of 80-90's culture. However, I agree with "grateful." God is on His throne and has always been there. In His infinite wisdom, He ordained that I be born when and where I was. He gave me my past and His grace is poured out upon my present and assures my future.To fume about lost opportunities as though they were rights is wrong. That misses the point of grace. I deserve nothing. I deserve wrath. And what do I have? I have forgiveness. I have hope. I have a Heavenly Father who is alive and powerful. I still feel awkward many times a week, but that's not the point. The point is that God's grace alone has showered me with more good than I could ever deserve and because of that I rejoice.
I have to disagree about deserving nothing. This is an attitude that propogates abuse. You do have certain human rights. Of course, whether or not this falls under that category, is up for debate.
We all want the best for our children. My parents were no exception. However, some of the things they did, I can see, in retrospect, clearly were NOT best for their children. In a big way. I think it is important to understand what went wrong, to warn others, to try to figure out how to rebuild our lives in spite of what is lost, and to avoid similar mistakes with our own children. This is the purpose for which we tell our stories. And I will never apologize for that.
Hannah,
I agree that a woman who believes herself worthless and un-deserving of any good is setup for abuse; however, that is not the angle I was considering. God created man and woman in His own image and therefore each life is precious. I teach my children daily that they are designed by God and precious to Him. The point I was trying to make is that since Adam fell and all mankind with him, we all are naturally in sin and therefore deserve punishment from the Judge of all living. When God chose to die for me, He showered me with mercy, grace, and love. THAT I do not deserve and for THAT I am grateful. Any difficulty in this life which I experience must pale in light of that.
I am glad for your work in exposing the lies and errors of ATI. Sites just as this one and books like _A Matter of Basic Principles_ are important. Paul took the time to expose errors in the early church and it's right be discerning. I would not ask you to apologize for seeking God's best for you or your children. Keep on!
SoBlessed,
May I ask a few questions of you? Do you agree that if something bad happens to you, and maybe something good comes out of it, that it makes what happened right? I'm assuming you do not agree, so let me ask, why would you make an exception for ATI and Mr. Gothard? You claim that God is in control, which is true, but don't bad things often happen to good people? If so, when those things happen, would you look at the victim of the bad circumstance and say "What did you do to bring this on you?" Isn't that what happens among radical Muslims, where when a woman is raped, she is the one punished?
I'm assuming you would not support that, yet again, why would you make an exception for ATI? Is that not inconsistent? Furthermore, isn't there something wrong with looking at the victim and saying "You need to quit thinking about how you were hurt," instead of looking at the perpetrator and saying "You need to stop hurting people?"
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting or saying that wrong never took place. That would be a lie. In some cases here, horrible, excruciating acts were committed against children. God hates that. Jesus said, "Whoever causes of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea." (Mark 9:42)
If all a person did upon hearing of harm was to say to the victim "stop thinking about your hurt" that would be wrong and exactly what Mr. Gothard did to so many students who trusted him. That is totally wrong. May I suggest, however, that while lies must be exposed and evil perpetrators must be stopped, AT THE SAME TIME, those who call themselves believers must choose to set their eyes on Christ. I firmly believe that both are possible. Exposing lies while pressing on. It doesn't have to be either/or and, in fact, should be both.
You know, I would agree with you. That is the issue those here at Recovering Grace have, is that it seems those who are pro ATI do tend to focus on the victim exclusively. For instance, Robert Norvell, on his personal Facebook page, had someone ask about those who had been hurt by ATI. Mr. Norvell's response was in all caps "HOGWASH." He seemed to indicate that he did not care about those who had been hurt.
On the issue of confronting error and pursuing Christ at the same time, I would agree with you. It is possible, and should be our goal. Confronting scriptural errors is extremely important. However, concern over such should not overshadow our pursuing and developing a relationship with Christ.
Thank you for providing your input in this discussion. I appreciate you providing your perspective.
SoBlessed, I loved reading your comment!!!
I admire your courage in posting something like that on here.
I also appreciate that you write from experience and yet seem to have such a sweet spirit.
So blessed, I agree that good things can come from circumstances that are not ideal. Yes, God can turn something evil into a good result. But that never makes the evil itself good. The control and misuse of authority that caused this sheltered existence is still wrong, even if God did use it to protect us from some bad things.
It would be sort of like telling someone who has been in a bad accident, "Hey, all your bills have been paid and you are getting better! Isn't that wonderful? See, if you hadn't been in this accident, you wouldn't have gotten to see all these good things happen!" Better yet for this analogy, assume that the person speaking here is the careless driver who caused the accident in the first place. It kinda would sting a bit, wouldn't it?
That is kinda where I am at. Did bad or unfortunate things happen? Yes. Did God do something wonderful in spite of them? Absolutely!!! I used to think that made the bad things good. Therefore it was good for bad things to happen to me and I shouldn't try to fight them when they did happen. I should just let people walk all over me and assume that it would be good for me. I thought I shouldn't stand up for myself. I thought that would be sin. See how this "logic" changes things if it is taken too far?
Do I still appreciate the good God brought? YES! But now I also know that He grieves when we are hurt. And it is ok to stand up for myself when needed.
So Blessed never said that the evil was good or that we should not oppose it. On the contrary, she is saying we MUST oppose and expose it. Yet it is possible to tell the truth about the evil someone has done and how it has hurt me without saying I "deserved" better. I don't deserve to take my next breath - but praise be to our loving God that he desires, not to give me the punishment I deserve from Him, but to lavish me with eternal riches in Christ that cannot be measured. When we focus on something someone has taken away from us, it robs us of rejoicing in what the Lord has given us. No one can take anything from us that He will not infinitely make up for in the age to come if we are His. I was bitter against my former husband who abandoned my daughter and me 20 years ago until I realized this truth. It is liberating!
Lolly, I did see that she clarified that since I posted this. And I appreciate that. I wasn't saying that this is what she was saying. Just that it is what my thought processes were when I heard similar things growing up.
I think we actually agree. I'm just really nervous about anything that says we "don't deserve good" or "aren't worthy" or anything like that. Because those types of concepts were used against me in spiritual abuse. As human beings, we DO deserve to be treated with respect by other humans.
Do we deserve for God to give us everything we want? No. But He gives us beauty for ashes anyway. He gives us unconditional love. I have trouble focusing on the good He gives, though, because of all the years when my focus was on all the "bad" that I had done (most of it was well intentioned, actually good, or just trying to escape the spiritual and emotional abuse). Focusing on God's grace does not come naturally to me. But I am learning. :)
My sister-in-law was a missionary kid in Hong Kong. When she was a junior in high school her Dad got sick with cancer, they moved back to the states and he died soon after. She had to go to an American High School and she really didn't fit in. She struggled for several years. It's amazing to me that you could be right here in this country but be so sheltered. We tried to shelter our kids but it was hard! Their little friends at church filled them in on so much! I know my kids have experienced some of the "feeling wierd' that you do. My heart goes out to you! As a side note I have to say, I love Schoolhouse Rock! Sooooo funny!
i think the ancient Israelites wanted to fit in and be normal too ....
just sayin'
Scripture for that please.
II Kings chap 17 comes to mind ...
Please explain how that passage equates to "wanting to fit in and be normal".
Bear in mind the historical context: God is bringing judgment upon his people and allowing the Assyrians to conquer Israel. This chapter gives a summary as to why
Verse 15 is the most pointed: "And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the Lord had charged them, that they should not do like them."
This example (and others) applies to the Christian because time and time again throughout the "history" books of the OT, God warns his people not to take on the trappings of the culture around them. This is also reiterated in the NT by references to believers as aliens, stranger and pilgrims, etc. Additionally, Paul was "vexed" in his spirit when he took into account all the gods and false philosophies when in Athens. As believers we should also be vexed because of the falsehoods propagated by our modern day pop culture not pining away about them.
This is a very silly site. There are so many people in the world who have very serious problems, slavery, drug addiction, starvation to name a few and you are wasting your time whining that you didn't get to see Top Gun? Centuries of children were raised in relatively sheltered environments, whether because of their geographical location or because profanity and fornication weren't being filmed and distributed in homes, many of these kids turned out fine, many didn't. My point is why waste your life whining about your past and your imperfect parents who implemented the teachings of an imperfect man? Bill Gothard is not the devil, and if your parents, jars of clay like the rest of us, followed him too rigidly and caused you some pain, glorify God for it. Life if full of pain, it teaches us, and you can be sure that you will make mistakes with your kids also, we all do, because we are all jars of clay. Remember, as you sow, you shall reap. Forgive and move on.
Incredulous,
I find your comment incredulous.
While not being able to watch "Top Gun" may pale in comparison to the other problems you mentioned, you see to misunderstand the mindset behind it. One of sheltering your children so much that they are socially awkward and immature, know no cultural references, which makes them look bad to others. One of making them believe that God's love or His blessing depends on their performance. Believing that they're "more spiritual" than those who watch that "worldly movie or TV show," more spiritual than those who listen to music with a beat (oops, Boxcar Willie's out of the picture), and numerous other things. Being told that if they do watch that movie or TV show, or listen to that music, or they don't do something that the parents believe they should, that they are very likely in rebellion to God, and therefore, are backslidden.
So in light of the spiritually abusive mindset behind these surface issues, are you going to advise us to just "forgive and move on?" Does forgiveness mean never acknowledging the wrongdoing on the offender's part? Would you say that to a woman who was raped? "Eh, you should not be bitter against that man! You just need to move on!" I doubt you would, so why are you saying that to those who have been hurt by the many unScriptural, legalistic teachings of ATI?
Do remember too, that as SoBlessed wrote above, Jesus said that if anyone offended a little one, it would be better that a millstone were hung around his neck, and that person was drowned in the depths of the sea.
And Incredulous, I invite you to read some of the other articles on this site, esp the 'Failed Protector's' articles. There are the stories that would hopefully help you to see what the main purpose of this site is for. There are the stories of absolutely horrendous physical and sexual abuse, not to mention the spiritual abuse, which turned some away from Christ altogether, etc... and one might argue that it's a little worse in some ways because it was done in the name of Christ.
[...] 30, 2012 By Libby Anne Leave a CommentRecovering Grace just posted a piece called “I Just Want To Be Normal.” As I’ve said before, me too. Here’s an excerpt from the piece:“What does this [...]
I couldn’t watch Scooby Doo — there were ghosts.
I guess your parents weren't allowed to watch it either. The joke's on them - it's never a ghost! It's always just a bad guy in a mask, or with a video projector.
It seems there are always apologists. "Centuries of children" earlier didn't have racy magazines or billboards glaring at them. I don't think the author is whining about anything. She isn't claiming all those who don't dance or watch tv are part of cults. The keyword here is choice. I am sure everyone has bits of entertainment culture they don't care for. I don't care for some of today's pop music or tv shows. However, this is not forced by a cult but because of personal tastes and common sense-big difference. It doesn't take legalism to learn what's good and bad. I have also seen keeping kids sheltered can backfire.
I have little to no experience with ATI, but this post meant a lot to me. I wasn't oversheltered, but I grew up in a Christian culture where there wasn't much to shelter me from. Out of the house now, I'm trying to take it slow and discover what I need to learn and what I don't. Thanks for sharing.
I didn't grow up in ATI but since Junior High I had been a part of a very legalistic and similarly structured Mime team. I think the founders were part of ATI. We had the 40 standards, being a 'standard of excellence' and many things like that, and I was so very very sheltered, to the point where I thought that self harm was a sign of rebellion, not something was emotionally wrong with the person.
I was so sheltered, and this article struck a chord. My serious boyfriend and I went to Catalina (alone *gasp*!) for spring break. I had a melt down one night just saying that I want to be normal. I want to understand references and not have the guilt baggage of team.
Its a struggle by the Grace of God and my parents and my dearest Sir are helping me through