This post came to us from a seminar attendee, someone who was very much influenced by the teachings of Bill Gothard. While this site is mainly for former students to share their journeys to healing and grace we thought it would be beneficial to show that many people --- even those not inside the Advanced Training Institute --- were affected by the teachings of Bill Gothard through the Basic and Advanced Seminars.
“Females who enjoy horseback riding have a problem with rebellion.” — Bill Gothard
I remember reading years ago that Bill Gothard allowed families to have one small pet dog, but not to give it too much love as it might become an idol. Just reading that made me cringe as I thought, “Boy, am I in trouble now!” I really respected — or rather feared — that anything written by Gothard was straight from God. At the time I had a horse, cats, dogs, and milk goats because my husband needed that milk due to a mystery illness. And they all got a lot of petting and love, and they usually stayed with us until they died.
I married my long-suffering husband in 1975. He knew I was different, and he still loved me. His Baptist mom was upset because not only was I from a Catholic Italian family, but I had made my feelings known about not wanting children. I cared little for the other things most woman did. Hair, make-up, clothing, and keeping house were just not on my agenda. I had graduated with a teaching degree, and I wanted to teach school, be an artist, ride horses, and have some cats and dogs as pets. So I did. But I carried a lot of guilt for these choices due to having been to a Gothard seminar where we were taught wifely submission and the importance of having lots of children. Animals, art, and horseback riding were not part of the formula for the perfect Christian life (i.e., God’s best!).
There were things I did for the glory of God. I was willing to work alongside my husband to help youth find their way to God. I was creative in many ways, but my personal style did not line up with the status quo on how to teach the Word of God. I rarely followed the Sunday school lesson as set down by the Baptist board. (They, of course, knew exactly what God wanted to say on that particular Sunday). I preferred to wing it or be led by the Spirit.
I thought I was doing my part well according to my abilities in the First Baptist Church in a little town in Arkansas where my husband was minister of music and youth. But one Monday morning, my husband was called into the pastor’s office. “What is wrong with your wayward wife?” the pastor stormed at my husband. We had been married for a little over a year at that time, and we knew each other as well as any newlywed couple could. My husband could not imagine what I had done wrong. All sorts of frightening thoughts went through his mind. Was she drinking or doing drugs? Adultery? Wearing revealing clothing?
“She rode her horse to church!” came the stern reply. My husband was dumbfounded. He explained that I had ridden to church alongside a little girl on her horse, as it was a way to get her to come to church. But apparently, on that same Sunday, there had been some bigwigs from the Baptist convention visiting, and this was not how the pastor wanted his church to be represented. My husband was firmly reminded that his wife was not allowed to wear pants at any time because of the position he held. (That was the first thing the pastor told me when we arrived in the little Arkansas town. “You are to wear dresses at all times, and pets are discouraged.” I told him that I could not find anything in the Bible about those things. I was incredulous at such ridiculous rules here in America. This was, after all, in the mid ’70s, around the same time that the movie The Stepford Wives came out.) We stayed at the church through the summer but left after the horse incident, even though the youth begged us to stay: “You two are the first to ever show an interest in our needs, desires, and questions about God and life.” But we were so radically different that the church was about to ask the pastor to leave because of us, and we did not want to be the cause of any church splits.
As it turned out, the old mare that caused such controversy was going to be our only transportation for several months, as our old car was on the fritz and we could not afford to get it fixed. God supplied her to be our transportation to church, work, and other places, until she passed away of old age.
Our next church got into Bill Gothard’s “authority” teachings (as in never, ever question the church leaders). That was also where I attended my first and only Gothard seminar. My husband was smart and ignored most of what was said in the sessions, but I read a great deal of Bill Gothard’s material. I quickly came to the conclusion that I would never be able to measure up to all those rules, especially how women should dress, keep an immaculate house, and have child after child. A visit to my house would find paintings, art supplies, saddles, and some cats throughout.
As for having children, I had had my fill as a teen, helping my mom run her babysitting business. I grew up always in trouble for what those kids did, and spent many a lonely hour in my room as punishment. Summers were the worst time, as I got in trouble daily for not taking better care of the children. As an adult, I liked kids, but had absolutely no desire to have one. As a teacher, I could be around the children and then send them home at the end of the day and have personal time for art and riding.
Gothard’s teachings were having an effect on me, though. The guilt of not living up to his standards for the perfect Christian wife often drove me to physical and mental sickness, because I believed that I was sinning by my life choices. I believed I would never be able to change. I believed that I must not love God enough to not be able to give up the things I loved in order to keep a perfect house and keep myself attractive with groomed hair and makeup, etc. But I just could not make myself do what it took to be living in “God’s best” according to Gothard’s teachings.
It all came to a head in 1986, after our home was hit by a tornado in 1982, and then again in 1985. Even though the house took a severe hit with lots of damage, God protected all the critters and the artwork. For example, glass had flown throughout the whole house and was embedded in all the walls. Paintings hanging there could have been torn to shreds, but not a single shard touched the art or the frames. Every cat, goat, dog, and horse came through unscathed. God was watching over us, protecting us, and blessing us — yet all I could think about was how much I was failing Him.
For over a year, I spiraled into a deep depression and became ill with an unspecified disease (probably post traumatic stress disorder from the tornadoes). I had no strength and could barely function. I just sat on the couch telling God to kill or cure me as I could no longer live that way. I finally opened the Bible and spent three days reading scripture. I neither ate nor drank anything, nor did I feel hungry. (God’s fast is just that, God’s fast. I really did not want or need any intake.) I finally felt connected to Him.
I felt that He said to me, “Here I am. Now tell me your sin.” I said, “I am an artist; I love horses and cats, and I do not have or want any children.” God replied, “No, not that. I asked you to tell me your sin.” I repeated, “I am an artist; I love horses, and I do not have or want any children.” God said, “No, no, that is not sin. Let me tell you what your sin is. Even if you were a missionary in deepest darkest Africa and had several children, never rode another horse or painted another picture, you still would not be pleasing to me because you have no faith.” He continued, “I gave you your art talent. I gave you your love of horses and cats. I made you the way you are, even all your faults and shortcomings. I made those in you for My purposes! I will use you to reach people that others cannot. You must walk and live by faith, for your likes, your dislikes, your personality, and even your faults are to be lived by faith.”
Whoa! What a load came off my heart and shoulders that day! My life was to be lived by faith in Him, led by Him, not following what men expected of me. I was to live how He expected me to live, and not what others said was right or wrong for my life. It was wonderful to feel free and happy for the first time in my life. I have come to understand that He is the Author and Finisher of my faith. And I know that there are many yet-to-be-written chapters.
Years have passed. No, I never had kids. I still paint, teach art in public school, have two horses, and have rescued and found homes for many lost cats and dogs. The guilt has tried to work its way back in from time to time. I even prayed one time, “Please God, let someone else find the lost critters.” Two days later, driving on a very dark road out in the country, we came across a tiny white kitten, too young to be away from his mother. Of course, we had to stop and rescue it. This is how I was fearfully and wonderfully made. We still have that rescued kitten, and he is sitting at my computer desk in front of me as I write this.
A wise Christian lady, whose husband survived 12 bullets in a store robbery, once told me that God does not make “cookie cutter Christians.” I have come to realize that each Christian has to follow the individual path God has laid out for them. It is a personal relationship to be worked out, with many mistakes and wrong paths taken along the way. The problem is that sometimes the body of Christ thinks that God has exactly the same plan for every Christian, to walk, talk, dress, and live exactly the same way. That all Christians should be arms or legs. Who gets to be the less glamorous parts of the body?
1 Corinthians 12:14--25 (English Standard Version)
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body --- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free --- and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be?
As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
Susan, an Italian, is an artist, horse lover, and struggling Christian. Married since 1975 to Stephen, they have no kids, but lots of cats, two dogs, and two horses. She is just getting back into riding her 31-year-old horse, who survived the second tornado (a miracle in itself). She has taught in public schools for 27 years and is currently teaching art at the middle school level. Her art can be seen
here.
Hahaha I was just singing to myself "I love my pony. I'm going to see him today." when I opened this! (actually he is 16.1) :) I knew about the teaching on riding but I did not know the pets as idols teaching. I have wondered about that because some of the families I have known with pets are not really good pet owners. I think it might stem from this teaching.
I never attended a seminar but I have been surrounded with Gothardites at church and homeschooling. And now have one of their daughters living with me because she cannot go home because she does not toe the Gothard line with her parents. I love her family very much and it is extremely hard to watch these teachings ruin their relationship with their daughter. I was trying to encourage her to walk HER walk last night. You have stated it so well I will share this with her.
Thanks Susan. Sending you lots of horsey love.
I suspect you're right about the ATI members who owned pets were not very good pet owners, although I also knew some wonderful people who took really good care of their house pets during our time in ATI.
The beginning of our end in ATI was when my daughter and I went to a mom/daughter seminar at ITC. We took a little side trip to the South Campus and got a tour. When we went out to the barns, there was a female goat there who had been in labor for many days. She was miserable, and, of course, no vet had been called even for advice. When I asked them about that, they told me that, oh, no, they didn't need "medical" help since "medical" help was of the world. They would just let nature take its course. As animal lovers, my daughter and I were horrified.
I thought of the verse from Proverbs: "A righteous man careth for the life of his beast." Evidently this verse had been either conveniently forgotten or twisted just like most of the Scripture taught by the Institute. We were so disillusioned by this that we just began phasing out using ATI curricula materials My daughter was 15 at the time. We just phased out of ATI, and we didn't miss it at all. Thank the Lord that we emerged relatively unscathed. May the Lord bless and keep you all.
Interesting how the Lord moves, that same truth - that God made me the way I am and that I am to live it out to His glory - came to me at a Basic Seminar (and I was freed from a lot of baggage too.)
LOVE YOU!!! Thank you so much for letting yourself be different. I too, never fit that mold, but lost myself somewhere in the confusion of all those years and a desire to be acceptable to others. Thank God that you still know who you are; hang onto it!
I remember very well the day when God told me, "Heather, stop asking me to take that* away from you. I gave you those abilities for a REASON."
*that was my overactive imagination, my dream world (which for years was my escape from the harsh life I lived.), I was constantly in trouble for 'not applying myself, not being attentive/diligent/thorough, etc... My parent impressed on my mind that I was very sinful for having such an active imagination, and was not well able to control it. Apparently God had a different plan. Yes and Amen!
BTW, I'm an actress (twice nominated for best actress), screenwriter, and involved with a Christian non-profit production company. I couldn't do ANY of that without a practiced imagination. God in His wisdom knew that the hardships I endured as a child would pay off later. I am grateful to Him for all the good He has done.
I am not, and never will defend ATI, the teachings, or BG, nor do I use the good that has come in my life as a means to excuse the wrongs that were done to me. All of this simply means that 'God is bigger than the boogie man.' I will NEVER encourage anyone to follow ATI. The few truths that are in there are not enough to balance the poison, and those truths you can get from your Bible anyway, so why the need for ATI? Read the Good Book, and let the Lord lead you.
Oh, and 'women who ride horses have a problem with rebellion.' HUH? WHAT? I'm staggered.. WHAT? How on earth does he come up with stuff like this? Does he just pull it out of thin air? It'd almost be funny if people didn't take this kind of thing so seriously. How can he know the hearts of anyone else? What a blanket statement! Never mind that people who live on ranches and farms may need to ride horses frequently... Wow.
and as far as owning a dog but not loving it too much, perhaps he should use his own theory on himself. "You can follow my teachings, but don't follow me to closely, I might become an idol in your life."
Thankfully, my family did not follow his teaching on pets. Our pets were very well loved. :)
And yes, I'm still trying to learn to embrace who God made me to be, instead of all the little meaningless rules.
I love it. Thanks for sharing!!
Thank you for sharing! This really got me. "Our next church got into Bill Gothard’s 'authority' teachings (as in never, ever question the church leaders)."
Regarding the authority teachings the Biblical response is each individual Christian is responsible to God and has the Holy Spirit living inside him or her. We are all priests to God (1 Pet. 2:4-9) and Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1, 4:14). We do not need a Pope, bishop, pastor, deacon, or parent to mediate between us and God. We are His children and can approach Him directly because of the blood of the Lamb.
If leaders are wrong or errant in their theology/thought process they should be called on the carpet in love. Leaders are to be held accountable for their actions.
Definition - Spiritual Abuse:
Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.
Typically an abusive religious system will have the following 2 characteristics:
1a. Characteristic: Undue Loyalty to Leaders -
The leadership is held to be anointed by God and followers taught they should submit in anything it requires. This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit.
**Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadership is wrong.** It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that.
1b. Biblical Response:
Jesus did not fear to criticize the religious leaders or their faulty doctrines (e.g. Matthew 15:1-9; 23:1-39, etc.). And when confronted with criticism or with treacherous questions designed to discredit Him, His response was never to simply demand silence or only positive recognition from His accusers. Rather, He gave answers - scriptural and reasonable answers - to their objections (e.g. Luke 7:36-47; Matthew 19:3-9).
In John 9 the Pharisees "cast out" the man born blind simply because the truth he told about his healing exposed their own corruption. In Acts 7:51-56, Stephen called the Jewish leaders to account over their spiritual abuse. His testimony of Christ vindicated Jesus, whom they had abused, and condemned them. The legalistic Jews were so angry they stoned Stephen to death. In Galatians Paul addressed a performance based Christianity which leads to the abuse of legalism.
2a. Characteristic: Authoritarian -
The system is characterized by rules and a power structure that is unaccountable to those who follow. Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised. The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority.
**Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts.** This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. **Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God.**
2b. Biblical Response: Jeremiah 5:26-31 describes a perversion of justice in Israel where those in authority, the prophets and priests, were adding to their own wealth, power, and prestige at the expense of the needy. This angered God Who asked, "Shall I not visit for these things?" This same perversion of justice is described again in Jeremiah 6:13-14 where the false leaders give lip service to healing, saying, "Peace, peace; when there is no peace." Needy people left these spiritual authorities with no real help and God was angry for that.
**An authoritarian leader will seek to be unaccountable for his actions, or inactions, this side of heaven.**
As God in human flesh, Jesus had legitimate spiritual authority. But He did not exercise it to gain power for Himself, or to abuse and control others with rules and regulations. He said, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28). The Greek word for "heavy laden" is phortizo which means here "to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety)" (Strong's Concordance #5412). Jesus gave a balanced perspective on positional authority when he said, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matthew 23:8). He gave another key to discernment when He taught, "He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory..." (John 7:18a).
Susan, you seem like the kind of person who I can be friends with. Even though, doing the math, you're almost old enough to be my mother. I also never wanted kids for almost the same reasons. Though, in my marriage I struggled with the "be fruitful and multiply" command, and gave thanks for some health problems that would've made pregnancy dangerous. I still seek to serve God in whatever way I can, even if it includes working in a fast-food restaurant. I would've made a REALLY bad Gothardite; the lack of desire for children, infertility, and then widowhood in my 30s. I only found this site after being fascinated with the Duggars, and then Bates, who go to ATI conferences once a year.
Anyway, thanks for sharing. Your story makes me more confident in being who God made me, and I hope and pray it encourages many others, and works along with others here to reveal the truth about Bill Gothard's teachings.
What is a woman to do when she has reached that point in her walk with the Lord where she has the same epiphany as you, but is married to a man who still cannot see the error of what he was taught in ATI/IBLP? After 20 years, I am in such turmoil that I can hardly bear it anymore.
I don't have answers for you, but I wanted to let you know that I read your comment and feel for you and prayed for you tonight.
I do know that reading Scripture, especially in a different version that you're used to, can open up blinded eyes. It did mine.
I pray that communion and harmony in truth can be re-established in your marriage.
I'm very sorry, Kathy. In my opinion (and it is only opinion), this is an area that comes back to boundaries. There is a book by this title that I cannot recommend enough, for its practicality in that regard. There is even a marriage version of the book :) Basically, what I'm saying, is that your husband can follow Gothard if he chooses, but you don't have to be a willing participant, and you can limit its influence allowed upon your children. I had a counselor once, who told me, "This is when things start to change... when one person gets fed up with the unhealthy dynamics and seeks help, it becomes a chain reaction, upending everyone they are in relationship with. When you stop playing this unhealthy game, it throws everyone else [who is playing the game] off-balance."
There is also the book, A Matter of Basic Principles, if you can ask your husband to read it. I don't know if he would or not, but it is hard for a true Gothardite, deeply involved in IBLP/ATI to read it and not realize that much, if not all of it, is true, whether or not they are willing to admit it.
Just a follow up on Hannah's comment, A Matter of Basic Principles is no armchair book. It's a hard book to read, and alot to keep up with. It's excellent, I think, but one that most people could only read one chapter at a time in order to fully digest what they've read. Perhaps the fact that I don't need the proofs of Gothard's scams, makes the book unnecessary for me to read, therefore not quite as valuable as it would be to you, Kathy. But I definitely recommend you reading it and perhaps discussing it with your husband if he's willing. I hope very much that you can find a good resolve to your situation.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. My husband and I are childless for different reasons, we could not have children, but I still struggled with feeling judged and wondering what I did to cause our "barrenness". Coming out of ATIA with all the emphasis on large families and not being able to have a child is something I still deal with on an almost daily basis. We have also rescued three little shih-tzus and often feel that the Lord brought them to us for a variety of reasons: 1. They needed a home and someone to love them having been neglected and abused and 2. We needed them. They have been a great comfort to us. He truly does care for the sparrow that falls from the tree. We're in the process of moving to the country where we plan add some chickens and goats to our "flock".
I wonder if you could tell me exactly where that bg quote at the beginning of the article came from? Not doubting your accuracy. But I know people who will tell me, "Oh, he didn't say that, it's too crazy." Unless I point to the exact place it came from.
Lilly, I remember him saying exactly that about horseback riding at the 1997 Young Ladies' Counseling Seminar at the Indianapolis Training Center. He also said something similar about females running, and that God never intended for us to run. He backed that up by saying the only times in Scripture women ran were times in which something earth-shattering had happened (such as the Resurrection). I was at that seminar, and it was one of my first big things with ATI. I was shocked.
Also, my memory of this has been backed up by another girl who was also at the 1997 Counseling Seminar. We both remember him saying that, and neither of us knew each other at the time.
I can vouch for the statement that Gothard claimed that riding horses shows a female is rebellious. He stated it at a "Young Ladies Conference" I attended in Indianapolis, in 1994. I remember being very startled by that statement!
He made many many dogmatic statements in these conferences for teen ATI students, statements that never made it into the seminars. Plenty of ATI kids lived in shame and fear for years because of these teachings, and their parents never knew, because they were never presented to the adults attending Basic and Advanced seminars.
I had never heard the one about riding horses equals rebellion for females, but for some reason it brings to mind one of my random memories from a youth session of a Bloomington ATIA conference. Bill had forgotten he was scheduled to speak but was walking along in one of the halls when it suddenly hit him that he was supposed to speak. He turned and walked into the conference just as he was being announced - nice timing! He claimed that the Holy Spirit had reminded him but he was only able to hear the Spirit's voice because he was so sensitive to it - and that is one reason why it's so important that we don't listen to any rock music whatsoever, because if we do, then we won't be sensitive to hear the Spirit's voice like Gothard could. At the time, that sort of thing felt like the oracles of God to me.
I was also at the 1997 counseling seminar. I don't recall the horseback riding statement, but definitely remember him telling us it was wrong for women to run and we were never designed for that. Liberating to know now that I was not the only girl sitting there feeling dumbfounded after that.
Lily, I don't remember exactly where I heard him say this. Probably a counseling seminar. Or maybe an apprenticeship session at the annual training conference. But I know I heard it. It isn't likely that this was in any written material, although it might have been. But there are quite a few of us who distinctly remember this teaching.
Wow. Profound. Thanks for sharing, Susan. And no, Eliza, the more radical things Bill Gothard said in conferences never made it into print, at least, not in the late 80s and the 90s for sure. The Editorial Department was responsible for giving feedback before things were printed, and anything that couldn't be backed up using IBLP's hermeneutic or that was too controversial was likely to be challenged and a compromise reached.
The whole pet stance was just weird. Thankfully my folks never bought into that one and we always had a much loved dog and cats. At 21 I got MY first dog. Or rather God sent her too me. She was my best friend for 9 years and working with her helped me work through more than a few issues that were caused by the whole authoritarian upbringing.
Thanks for including a post from a seminar attendee! While I was never a part of ATI either as a student or a parent, I was immersed in Gothard's teaching via his Basic and Advanced Seminars in the late 1970s and early 1980s. His teachings were further reinforced by the pastor I was connected to during that time
The effects of his teaching stuck with me for over 25 years and essentially stunted my relationship with the Lord. His influence affected how we raised our children as well. I wish we could take back those years and the negative impact it had on our children's understanding of God.
I discovered this website about seven months ago. It has been like a breath of fresh air. God has used it to reveal how deeply Gothard's teachings have distorted my view of who He is. As a result, I am getting a clearer understanding of grace.
Thank you for all that you guys have accomplished through this site. I'm confident that there are a lot of people out there like me who are benefiting from what you are doing.
Thank you for posting this. It was so beautiful and it made me cry because you are such a similar person to me. Ecclesiastes has been a powerful book for me, describing how God made us to enjoy his creation. Animals were made for us to enjoy, and they are the part of creation that make me glorify God the most.
When I look at a tiny kitten and realize that he has a tiny little heart with chambers pumping through tiny blood vessels, it makes me send praises my Maker for thinking up such a thing.
Why would God make us all alike; perfectly made-up beauty queens? Why wouldn't he also make some gals who wisely know they are best off leaving the kid-raising to those who hover around at the baby showers for their turn to hold Junior while we are out throwing bales of hay and enjoying the beauty of a misty sunrise over a pasture?
When I lived at Headquarters I didn't exactly know that Bill Gothard disapproved of pets, but I did know he didn't care for women running. What was I to do? I'd been a runner for years, so I used to sneak out and run all over around the neighborhoods and parks in my long skirts.
People used to stop and ask me if I was OK, thinking I was running from danger. Otherwise why would I be dressed like that? When I wasn't doing that, I was taking walks over to the ritzy horse stable nearby to watch people having riding lessons.
I also had a gerbil in my dorm at the headquarters because I just couldn't stand to not have any pets at all. One day he escaped and ran all over the house where all the girls lived, which was a riot.
God bless you!!
Thank you for publishing an article by someone who was not in ATI but attended the seminars. I was the same. We were homeschoolers in the 80's and 90's in Dallas so you KNOW the Gothardites came though our circles. We attended the Basic Seminar but my Dad would go no further. My mom wanted to join, but you can't exactly do that without the husband's approval. So we did not join. But my friends did. Many of them faded from my life as I was slowly deemed to worldy to be around them to hang without their parents direct supervision. My mom reassured me that I could join when I became an adult and I was held to that expectation by her for years. I felt the sting for not be good enough even though I would have made a fabulous ATI-er. I'm a natural rule follower.
"Unfortunately," I went to a Christian college and married a Christian minister who would have none of it. But those priciples were so ingrained from just one seminar, and the it's influence on my homeschooling community, that I have felt guilty for 25 years. Last week, my husband and I started to argue. I quickly backed down. He grew angrier. "Did you just submit to me? Don't you dare submit to me! I married you because I LIKE the brain God gave you." Bless him.
It started me thinking about why I react this way and I started googling. I found this website along with "No Longer Quivering." Your article is a breath of fresh air. Thank you for writing and thank the admins for this website.
Pingback : Designed to be a … Finger? – Another Bill Gothard Testimony | The Wartburg Watch 2013
Oh my, can't own pets because they may become idols. So God's wonderful fellow creatures that God gave us are a distraction to serving God is about as bad as it gets. Where is St. Francis when you need him. Interesting that in Islam, owning pets especially dogs is likewise forbidden. I think of the wonderful companionship that pets give to many people that are alone and lonely. I think of the many practical ways that service animals (usually dogs but can include others)actually help humans in mobility etc. So riding a horse leads to rebellion? Tell that to Mary the Mother of Jesus who probably rode a mule or donkey to travel Bethlehem while pregnant. This is so silly and sick. Telling girls they can't run or do sports. Where does this man get this garbage from? I'm sure my very athletic daughter playing in travel soccer would have a thing or 2 to say to Bill.
"I remember reading years ago that Bill Gothard allowed families to have one small pet dog, but not to give it too much love as it might become an idol."
This may explain some animal neglect I have observed in an ATI family. They had one pet dog that got ill and clearly needed urgent medical care, but was just left to die. Like most people, I have observed animal neglect in my lifetime, but it is usually from low life people who you would expect it from. This family, on the other hand, is a very loving family, so it seemed strange to me that they would not properly care for their little puppy.
That observation is so pathetic. Even more so people following Bill to the point for what kind and how many pets they are "allowed" to have. Yet to neglect a sick animal in the name of not making pets an idol is really low. People make idols of all sorts of things but that doesn't mean having those things are bad in it of themselves. People make idols of cars, so following Bill's logic here, people shouldn't own cars because they may become idols. This is really a sign of lunacy. Sorry if that sounds mean but to be afraid to own pets, God's fellow creatures and animals for the reason they may become an idols is a break with reality.
I understand all your feelings, but please remember that many such families had real financial stresses and this behavior may as easily be explained by a reluctance to spend grocery money on a pet, combined with dearth of humane wisdom rather than pure heartlessness.
I could never justify spending $500 or more to "treat" a dog when I had 8 children to feed, but I tried to understand when it was more loving to put the dog to sleep in a humane manner and to also encourage my children to understand the tragedy of our helplessness, of hard choices and of the vulnerability of love. God made a covenant with the animals after the flood, but He still leaves them to enormous, grievous suffering in the wild. We are called to alleviate and not compound, do justice and show mercy, but none of us is fully sufficient to the calling.
The above was supposed to be a reply to Rob War 10/20 post on animal neglect. Sorry. (Wish we could "edit" or delete these. But that inability does make me more careful some times!)
No problem Don and actually you have a very good point in that many of these families with large numbers of children really do not have the resources for a pet or pets. My husband and I have had to put a dog down ourselves and that is a difficult choice to make but sometimes is the correct on. Maybe the neglect Kevin saw could have been more to do with finances than following misguided teaching. I think what is my concern here is that what is presented in the article is the animals should not be owned as pets because they can become "idols" for people. Having and owning pets has been and are blessings in my families life, and I think for most people that do own them, pets are this sort of blessing and a form an enrichment. They are God's fellow creatures. I know that if our current cat became seriously ill, we probably would put her down before spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on treatment but again that would be our choice, I don't judge someone else that does. I think Bill telling families that shouldn't own but one dog sound more like an overreach and consistent with his micro management for people's lives. I know dogs are much more intensive to care for and need more time (walking etc) so we don't own one now. It wouldn't be justice of us and the dog to do so. Again, thanks for your explanation.
I think this is the only area where to comment about pets but I just finished watching the disturbing video of Derek, Jill's new husband sledding down a hill on a cookie sheet with a push from Ben to directly run and hit a cat with the laughter of the younger Duggar boys in the background. That seems to fit the comments and observation here of lack of care or concern and even cruelity Gothard's followers seem to display. Not only did this instagram video show a lack of commone sense and character by being posted but it is a window into some disturbing behavior that I'm sure that the Duggars probably don't want the public to notice. For all the hype of how Godly these people think they are, sledding down the hill to hit some poor cat on purpose is not a sign of Godliness but a sign of arrogance, cruelity, meanness, hearless behavior which isn't Godly by anyone's standards.
Yes, Rob, that is very disturbing. Those abusive of others virtually always have a history of abusing animals as well. Can't help but think of a quote from one of the most beloved saints in my Orthodox tradition, which illustrates a stark contrast:
"And what is a merciful heart? It is the heart burning for the sake of all creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons, and every created thing; and by the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. By the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and by his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in his heart in the likeness of God."
St Isaac of Ninevah (7th century)
David Bentley Hart, Orthodox author and theologian, quotes St. Isaac in his critique of various forms of theodicy, The Doors of the Sea (also well worth the read), and argues the Orthodox perspective that we cannot see anyone or anything in this world aright except through a heart of compassion.
I commend the writings of St. Isaac to all who visit this site to see what the love of Christ really should look like in our lives. Orthodox bishop, Met. Hilarion (Alfeyev) has a web site (in English) dedicated to an exposition of St. Isaac's works.
Karen, Thank you for that quote. I needed it.
Thanks again Karen and nice to see your posts as well. Proverbs 12:10 says: "A righteous man regards the life of his beast but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel". I think the Duggars forgot to memorize this verse from Proverbs. In mentioning St. Isaac, I also refer back to St. Francis of Assisi and his great love of all of God's creatures including animals. The OT laws likewise imply kindness towards our fellow creatures. Even the kosher slaughter of animals where the neck is quickly slit to drain the blood is suppose to be one of the least painful and faster way to kill an animal. Banning strangulation, trapping and hunting limits eating animals and painful deaths as well. Jews were not found doing those things. This part of the kosher dietary laws is ignored by Bill. If an animal is going to be killed for its meat, it is going to be limited and done quickly in a form of consideration to the animal.
Lindsey, you're welcome. St. Isaac's words are very moving to me.
Rob, thanks. I knew there was a Proverb to that effect, so thanks for sharing that. Yes, I knew some would be reminded of St. Francis, too. Thanks for sharing about the Levitical laws. I agree they seem designed to limit the cruelty and pain even for slaughtered animals.