38 Comments

1. 

   Sad May 9, 2013 Reply

   Well written and very thoughtful article. I am sure it will make some waves should BG read it.
   
   I am very thankful for this site, the authors, and the topics covered.
   
   Keep up the great work, may the Lord bless you as you help bring Light to those who have been shrouded.

2. 

   MatthewS May 10, 2013 Reply

   This is a profound and insightful piece

3. 

   Eliza May 10, 2013 Reply

   Very well said. It definitely seems to fit.

4. 

   Chris Symonds May 11, 2013 Reply

   I found this to be true of the para church ministries I was involved with. As much as they wanted to stay true to the gospel many times a pragmatic idealism crept in that tended to dull discernment.
   
   The problem of pragmatism is that it can sometimes seek and easy route in resolving hard problems. As pointed out by this author getting caught up in the hype often leads to over zealousness.
   
   We want to honor the Lord and preach the gospel however pragmatism often causes us to go too far on the side of being pure and separate while at other times too soft and too compromising.
   
   On one extreme we have Bill Gothard. He isn't alone in his over emphasis on outward appearance and performance based outcomes. The other extreme is Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll and Allan Hirsch to name a few that are program based or have no grounding in scripture at all culminating in the Emerging and Emergent Church movements.
   
   While one is overly judgmental the other lacks any judgment at all.
   
   God's grace is the balance between nothing goes and anything goes, scripture is the arbitrator

5. 

   Alfred Corduan May 13, 2013 Reply

   "For well over thirty years I have heard or read of his many gimmicks, formulas, and tools that are “documented” to bring success. I watched people spend huge amounts of money trying to keep up with each new idea, never willing to admit that the previous ideas hadn’t done what was advertised. "
   
   Whenever I think of something that could be considered a "gimmick", I think of "Sonic Bloom", which you cited. Mr. Gothard really believed it - a lot of ATI folk never took it seriously, including ourselves. Please note that the outlay to do it was $30. I never got the chance to participate since it was apparently pulled soon after that first conference.
   
   I recall ALERT offering a several hundred dollar kit with lanterns and other "preparedness" gear in the run-up to Y2K. As I recall, it was a pretty good value for what you were getting . . . and I, frankly, was also never directly offered this but heard about it from others. Not widely advertised in other words.
   
   What else would come to your mind that would involve "huge amounts of money" to chase new ideas? I have been in contact with IBLP for 40 years, and in ATI for 19, and I honestly can't think of anything. I buy books and the occasional video . . . that is it.

   • 

     Ileata May 13, 2013 Reply

     I worked in book distribution, Alfred. People spend lots of money and buy lots of things looking for answers. You really seem to be grasping at threads here.

   • 

     Dave May 14, 2013 Reply

     I suspect that both the definition of "gimmick" and the determination of what constitutes a "huge amount of money" will have to be left subject to the readers. In my opinion many of the programs, books, videos, special trainings, and even methods of Christian behavior would qualify as gimmicks. As far as money, I would suggest that any amount of money spent on anything that didn't provide what was promised was too much and I knew many families who truly struggled to afford the next thing Gothard became excited about.

     • 

       Heather May 14, 2013 Reply

       Seriously. $1 for a piece of crap, is too much in my book.

     • 

       Ileata May 14, 2013 Reply

       Like selling music called "Character Building Classics." That sort of implies that by listening to that CD my kids will automatically quit lying or disobeying. Gimmick?

   • 

     grateful May 14, 2013 Reply

     I always found it interesting that they took credit cards (I wonder how many people paid months and months of interest on the Financial Freedom videos :))and sold copious amounts of candy bars, etc. during the breaks at the seminars.

   • 

     Alfred Corduan May 14, 2013 Reply

     Ileata: "I worked in book distribution, Alfred."
     
     People always spend lots of money on books at conferences . . . you know that! That has nothing to do with IBLP. Most of the books are main line authors . . . right?
     
     "Character Building Classics."
     
     I have seen Classics given new words to encourage "character" - Non-IBLP sources. I don't mean to nit-pic . . . but I don't buy gimmicks. We are constantly on the short end of the budget with 11 kids and 1 income . . . I have always been so impressed with the value of materials on sale by IBLP.
     
     Dave O: As far as money, I would suggest that any amount of money spent on anything that didn't provide what was promised was too much
     
     Don't get mad . . . what thing would you point to that did not provide what was promised? Excepting Sonic Bloom . . . got it.

     • 

       grateful May 14, 2013 Reply

       Honestly speaking, American Christianity is just flat big-business, whether it be BG, Benny Hinn, Charles Stanley, whomever and whatever flavor you like ... I wonder what the Lord truly thinks about all this nonsense?

     • 

       Ileata May 15, 2013 Reply

       You are free to be impressed with what ATI gives you. I'm not.
       
       I just bought 38 booklets (each about the size of a WB) for about $100 from a different curriculum. That only covers 3 subjects for one grade. That would be almost the entire set of WB's, which supposedly covers all grades for 7 years. No way that's sufficient material. And when I was in ATI, we paid $600 a year. That would mean that for $4,200, I would get 49 little booklets. (And occasional extra material that I could buy myself for a few hundred dollars.)
       
       If you look at WB's as a unit study rather than a complete curriculum, then let's compare it with a unit study. My Father's World curriculum is Bible based, presents a Christian world view with a focus on missions. For a one year, multi-age curriculum (same thing that ATI is supposed to be...you have to add your own math and language arts)I could pay $353. I would get the parent guide and student sheets along with all the resources suggested in the parent guide. Remember all those resources the parent guide suggested but many of us couldn't afford since we paid $600 for a curriculum that didn't have nearly enough information in it? Well, with the good unit study curriculums you get the resources. To just get the guide for a good unit study (which is basically what ATI gives) costs about $30. WB's cost my family 20 times that amount. (Plus we had to travel to Knoxville from the West Coast.) ATI is a gimmick.
       
       My hubby was a second year family. He says that they made the investment and went to the training and were give 4 Wisdom Booklets?!?!?!?!?! How much did they pay for that? Good value?????
       
       And, for the record, when my family got in ATI we were told that if we used another curriculum and just the Wisdom Booklets for Bible we were NOT using ATI. The Wisdom Booklets were to be the core of our curriculum.

       • 

         Alfred Corduan May 15, 2013

         Let's go over the math. I have 5 kids "in school" . . . how much - a year - would I spend using "My Father's World"? If you said well over $1,000, you would be right.
         
         And . . . that was before ATI implemented the current policies, in force for the last 3-4 years. I actually spend about $150 a year on the entire family because we have enough WB to last us for several years.
         
         We are encouraged to sign up for "Embassy University" which is $9/month ($108/year) for the entire family, video seminars that you take online. Those presentations come with review questions, i.e. materials to download. They are constantly adding to this catalog.
         
         We do go often to the annual ATI conference, which might cost us $1,000 (haven't gone as a family in 3 years). That usually doubles as a vacation trip, so . . . maybe half of that expense goes to ATI.
         
         Yes, we also supplement - a don't know anyone that doesn't. The materials and software we buy for that purpose amount to less than $50/child/year. Completely free resources also exist (just started looking at "Easy Peasy", http://allinonehomeschool.com/ ). We also sign up for outside "enrichment" classes, but we would do that regardless.
         
         So . . . assuming I like the curriculum, I know you will allow me to feel like I am getting a good value. Which was the point, I think - whether ATI is getting rich off of us. They are not.

       • 

         Ileata May 15, 2013

         How much did you spend to get all those WB's? And as a student who used WB's and now a homeschooling mother, if you aren't using anything extra (which MFW's includes!!!!) you are NOT giving your children a good education. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's true. ATI says that you can teach your first grader and your 12th grader out of the same books. You can't and be fair to both of them. MFW (which is not the curriculum I'm using) knows that and only puts the middle grades together. Those learning to read and those who are in high school need and get something different. You can go on feeling like you are doing a good job. I guess we'll have to wait and see what your kids think when they step away from it and look back (which many of us have already done.)

       • 

         Ileata May 15, 2013

         And, if you had been using MFW for several years, it probably wouldn't cost you $1000 this year because you would have stuff you could re-use. What would it cost me to do ATI this year?
         
         If new family enrollment is still $600 a year, it would cost that, plus all the required seminars, plus math and language arts (I'm interested in giving my kids a good education, so I'm insisting on using something that I trust and that will actually teach them something.)
         
         So, I would bet that for me to use ATI this year would cost about what it would cost you to use MFW for this year. Why don't you compare the stack of books you'd get against the stack I'd get and see who would get more for their money.
         
         MFW would give real biographies, not just history "resources." There would be different biographies for different ages. (Amazing thought, huh?) Students would learn history in an order that makes sense, not just random stories. Science in high school would include science text books. Those of us who did it the ATI way never had a chance to actually do high school level classes like chemistry or physics.)
         
         You are still going to think you are getting a good value. But not many people would compare those two and think ATI is a good value.
         
         And if you compare ATI to Sonlight...that's an even bigger difference.

       • 

         Alfred Corduan May 15, 2013

         I suspect this will never have a bottom here.
         
         "ATI says that you can teach your first grader and your 12th grader out of the same books. You can't and be fair to both of them."
         
         The bumblebee can't fly . . . somehow our forefathers brought forth a nation with the highest literacy rates in the world (and 7 child per family average) in exactly that manner.
         
         I am(was) . . . a credentialed teacher. Had a certificate and everything (high school Math/German). I am constantly amazed at the arrogance of the educational establishment. Bumper stickers like, "If you can read this, thank a teacher", striking terror in the hearts of homeschool mothers everywhere.
         
         Reality is . . . kids who are never taught to read, read. I know some who quite openly refuse to teach their children any subject but "Bible" for the elementary years. Every kid reads . . . somehow, nobody is quite sure how. Not that we would do that, BTW. And we, in the interest of full disclosure, supplement heavily. We were very WB centric for the first half of the children. Momma needs the extra help now. Time will tell which group does better.
         
         I am sure the Duggars supplement. But . . . they really like the Wisdom Books since they keep showing up in the episodes. Can't be done? Can't turn out an excellent product? I don't believe it.

       • 

         don't bring the duggars into it May 15, 2013

         I am sure the Duggars supplement. But . . . they really like the Wisdom Books since they keep showing up in the episodes. Can't be done? Can't turn out an excellent product? I don't believe it.
         
         Here's a blog post detailing how they supplement the "Wisdom Booklets" - it's quite the list: http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/duggars-on-homeschool-curricula.html
         
         So the point still stands, WB is inadequate and even the current ATI poster family needs to heavily supplement the ATI curriculum.
         
         Since you brought up the Duggars:
         
         The Duggar Family is held up as an example of a family to emulate... but I have little respect for a fathers' decision to lay bare his family to the public gaze. The younger Duggar kids have no idea what constitutes "real" or "normal" life; they are growing up as mini-celebrities and will never have a private life.
         
         It's telling that both the Duggar Show and Honey Boo-Boo are produced by TLC - reality TV is now a fine-tuned cash cow, and should any of these families stop making enough money for TLC they will be dropped like so much dead weight.
         
         Mr. Duggar has damaged his family and "...squandered their resistance For a pocketful of mumbles Such are promises All lies and jest ... Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest"
         
         *sigh*

       • 

         Ileata May 16, 2013

         Agreed. Having to "heavily supplement" something that is (or at least was back in my day) sold as a complete curriculum is a problem.
         
         Without that heavy supplementation you would be doing your children a huge disfavor if you insisted on teaching them all just out of the WB's.
         
         So, for the price (for us it was $600 a year until we had all the WB's) it is NOT a good value compared to other unit studies that also require heavy supplementing.
         
         A program that is similar to WB's in approach and worldview is Heart of Wisdom. The book costs $30 and you can use whatever you want to implement it. For $30 you have a basic guide and plan for all students for all years. That would have saved my family thousands of dollars.

       • 

         Alfred Corduan May 18, 2013

         Having the privilege of knowing the Duggars a bit I would love to have clarification of the damage you observe. I haven't seen it. Time will tell, I suppose.
         
         Princes and princesses are raised in the public eye. There are times they resent it, I am sure, but they seem to generally accept it as collateral damage from a higher calling. Somehow I don't see that God opposes this type of "fishbowl" existence . . . in fact, He seems to call some to it.
         
         "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops." (Luke 12:3) Pretty good description of reality TV.
         
         WB are the core, other things are the supplements. Sure it wasn't the proposed ideal, but it works. There is hardly a curriculum in the world that doesn't get adjusted to suit the use it is put to.
         
         As to cost, again, please compare apples and apples. Curricula "then" or curricula "now". "Now" everyone has internet access and there is an exploding amount of low cost or free resources. And . . . ATI has also adapted. As I said, the current model has a smaller expense for written materials (WB), as you need them, and a yearly subscription to the ever expanding "Embassy University" online seminars and courses. With my backlog of WB I pay $260/yr for the entire family.

       • 

         are you serious May 18, 2013

         Alfred, you didn't just compare the Duggars to princes and princesses? You can't be serious... all are equal in the eyes of God, yet because they are on TV the Duggars are some sort of special class?
         
         You said "I would love to have clarification of the damage you observe. I haven't seen it." THEN you said "Princes and princesses are raised in the public eye. There are times they resent it, I am sure, but they seem to generally accept it as collateral damage from a higher calling."
         
         So is there or is there NOT collateral damage? I say there is. Children who have grown up with a video camera plastered to their face are NOT growing up in a normal life. They are living a life where it's Normal to be in the public eye 24/7. Should the public ever drift away from watching these kids, some of them will self-destruct in order to create drama to pull the public gaze back to them.
         
         Also, the Duggars have no privacy, and for as long as they live, the Duggars will have NO PRIVACY, thanks to the internet we now have a sub-culture that is obsessed with following the Duggar family, and that sub-culture will always be alive and thriving as long as there are Duggars.
         
         Mr. & Mrs. Duggars actions in laying their family bare before the public eyes have forfeited their childrens future privacy, and have forfeited their kids opportunity to craft their own lives, they will ALWAYS be victims of the entertainment industry.
         
         It's sad to think the younger Duggar kids will not know what it's like to be able to decide on their own path in life, because their parents made them to be pawns of the media machine before they were even born.

       • 

         are you serious May 18, 2013

         Also Alfred, here's a question:
         
         Suppose you were presented with the opportunity to have your family be the stars of a new show: "The Corduan Chronicles" - a 12 episode series about your family. You'll share your home and life with a TV crew for several weeks. It will be broadcast on TLC and then uploaded to iTunes, Amazon, and Zune store. You and your family will be paid nicely, and also recieve some sponsorships from corporations.
         
         So, what would you do? Is this a ministry opportunity? or a business transaction? Would you accept the offer, or turn it down?

       • 

         esbee May 18, 2013

         Bingo, Alfred, your verse nailed reality tv on the head… and the following verse backs your verse up completely , i.e. people using remotes to change channels!!
         
         Daniel 12:4: "…many shall go to and fro”

       • 

         Heather May 19, 2013

         Except for that darling and adorable bit where ALL reality tv is heavily heavily edited, to produce precisely what the producer wants the audience to see. Isn't that too cute? If someone had a fight, they'll re film it and tell people to make it bigger and louder (for effect). etc.. Makes you wonder what kind of editing goes on for that show. (I've never seen it, and could care less, it doesn't interest me in the least, it's just a well known fact about reality tv.) Reality tv isn't actually reality, my friends.

       • 

         Alfred Corduan May 22, 2013

         I have a lengthy response to all of that . . . but in the interest of keeping the thread on track and not all about the Duggars, I will defer.
         
         For the record, our show would not be called "Corduan Chronicles" but "Alfie Boo Boo".

       • 

         grateful May 22, 2013

         Reality TV is a sad by-product of a narcissistic, self indulgent society.
         
         I could rant about this subject endlessly, but this is probably not the place for it ....

       • 

         guest February 13, 2014

         Alfred, you said, "WB are the core, other things are the supplements. Sure it wasn't the proposed ideal, but it works. There is hardly a curriculum in the world that doesn't get adjusted to suit the use it is put to."
         We were in the second year ATIA and stayed for 5 years. We were told over and over specifically to NOT use other resources. We felt very guilty for ignoring that (from the start), but knew we had to educate our children. If we had been upfront about it, we would have been told to stop. So, it wasn't just set forth as an "ideal" and then adjusted a little bit.
         Your description makes it sound like the WB were set forth as an ideal, and then ATAI over time allowed other supplements. Instead, It was a fundamental issue of saying that the WB WERE the curriculum, and during the 5 years we were involved any supplements were only used if you sneaked them in. This was drilled in over and over, every summer at the conferences.
         At any rate, I'm glad we stayed on the periphery and never sent our children to anything ATIA offered out of town or country. Something kept us from it, even though we wondered if we should. We now see life and the gospel opposite to the way we did in those early years, and it bothers me for you to characterize ATIA in a way that I know firsthand is not accurate, at least early on. I well remember trying to earn favor with God by my efforts.

       • 

         GuyS February 19, 2014

         Guest wrote:
         "We were in the second year ATIA and stayed for 5 years. We were told over and over specifically to NOT use other resources."
         
         Hi, I started the same time and was in for about the same amount of time and was told the same thing: Do NOT use other resources.
         
         If you are new, I wanted to welcome you. I see you have not got a response yet after about a week. I am sure you know that your post is easily overlooked since the thread is about 9 months old and there is so much current activity about the sexual misconduct.
         
         I hope you get a response from Alfred. I also would like to know if the rules were changed. I might post here now and again to keep this from being overlooked. These were very important points you made.

     • 

       Dave May 15, 2013 Reply

       I was going to write a response that started with the Wisdom Booklets, which were billed as a comprehensive curriculum, but then I realized that these subjective arguments solve nothing and never end.
       
       Ileata expresses my perspective very well. The WB's, the training seminars, and ATI as a whole - failed to deliver the product that was advertised. Just like the "As Seen on TV" products, what we received was often cheap and inferior. From a certain perspective, one could say that the promise was fulfilled, but that's the deception of marketing. The greatest new product to hit the scene just has to be great in someone's perspective.
       
       Again, these are subjective judgments. Like any product review, all anyone can say is whether or not the individual was satisfied. Did the WB's give your child a complete or comprehensive education? Well, it depends on who sets the standard. For the record, our family completed the WB's. Yup, all of them. We even enjoyed some of them. But they were a minor part of our curriculum and, because of that, they failed to deliver in our perspective.
       
       Alfred: "Don't get mad..." Really?

       • 

         Alfred Corduan May 15, 2013

         I agree that much of this is subjective. I was just having a hard time with comments that which I would use for sleazy ministries making millions off of its followers with worthless products. Curtis Springer and "Zzyzx Mineral Hotsprings" kind of stuff.
         
         Back it its heyday IBLP was making a once-in-your-lifetime fee of $45 for a week long seminar (30 some hours) with a nicely bound reference book included. As a 14 year old kid I could afford that. You probably recall that there was no charge for repeat attendance. Other materials for sale were sparse in those days. That was when the ministry was the largest it has has ever been.
         
         Whatever you may feel about the effectiveness of the advice given - and you know that many claim revolutionary, lasting results - the provided objective value of the services and materials rendered was and remains very high.

6. 

   hurting May 14, 2013 Reply

   Good points. But may I venture to say that pragmatism is a problem in the overall U.S. church. Pastors, and laymen, will do anything to get more people to come to their churches and walk the aisle so they can impress people with their large numbers of baptisms and long membership rolls. Aspects of the gospel and Christianity are left out or explained away to become more socially acceptable, make sinners feel comfortable in their sin, or make Christianity look like a easy, good life fix. Other Christians do the most outrageous things so they can claim they witness to someone or are engaged in ministry (Those with backgrounds with IBLP/Fundamentalism probably have examples). Others will ignore cultural changing mandates of Scripture, replacing them with political activism (don't get me going on "lesser of two evils"). Others do ridiculous stuff to make them feel saved or God loves the more( again, people with backgrounds with IBLP/Fundamentalism no doubt have examples). A lot of this comes from the influence of the pragmatist Charles Finney, who has had a confessed impact on Mr. Gothard, on American Christianity.
   May I also venture to say that those of us who are trying to put behind us the hurt and false teachings of IBLP can also be pragmatic in holding on to bitterness or having ungracious or unloving attitudes toward Mr. G and those still in IBLP? Just food for thought.

   • 

     Dave May 14, 2013 Reply

     @hurting - I would certainly agree with you on your first point. In fact, it wasn't because of Gothard that I became aware of this "Gospel of Pragmatism" at all. It was by watching the churches and denominations I knew. I used to watch a significant children's ministry count the children who came to their booth at our local county fair. They always reported hundreds of kids, which seemed strange because not that many kids even came to the fair. But the leaders had decided that kids could be counted more than once if they attended a presentation more than once (after which the kids received candy). Thus some children were counted many times. The rationale fit this pragmatism idea very well.
     
     It is probably fair to point out that pragmatism is what we learned in life. It actually accounts for most of our adult behavior, even what we consider emotional or personality disorders. We simply seek to know what works. What takes the pain away? What takes the focus off me (or brings it to me)? What allows me to get what I want? These are pragmatic questions that move us to adopt certain behaviors (or excuse certain attitudes and actions). The answers can range from all kinds of immoral or destructive behavior to binding religious actions.
     
     And, yes, being angry or continuing as a victim can be much preferable to actually working through issues and moving on with life. That would be a pragmatic decision as well. Often pragmatism fails to see the long term consequences of a decision. We want what works now.
     
     So pragmatism is simply learning and doing what works and valuing or holding those actions above others, particular for ourselves. The true gospel of Jesus does not appear to be pragmatic in any way, partly because the value is outside this world and this life. Jesus sometimes leads us to things that seem impractical, for a greater purpose. Nor can salvation or sanctification be achieved by pragmatic means. What is supposed to work in other areas of life cannot be transferred to the message of Jesus. Salvation does not come to those who work hard for it, for example, but to those who accept the work of another on their behalf. That doesn't translate well into pragmatism.

7. 

   Lynn August 12, 2013 Reply

   Alfred, you quoted the following: "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops." (Luke 12:3) This has nothing to do with reality TV or exposing your family for ministry's sake. It is teaching us how sin will be exposed. Context is very important.

8. Issues of Concern—Bill Gothard and the Bible (1984) | Recovering Grace September 2, 2013 Reply

   […] I do not raise these issues with any desire to deny that God has been pleased to bring blessing to many thousands of people through the ministry of Bill Gothard. But I do raise these issues to demonstrate—willful or not—Gothard’s use of Scripture is so suspect as to render him a poorly informed and untrustworthy teacher. To cite letters of approval based on success stories is beside the point, unless one wishes to argue that the end justifies the means. […]

9. 

   Jeremy Richardson January 31, 2014 Reply

   "Dr." Orrison,
   
   Machiavelli hated the Prince and his whole family. The whole book is satire- like Stephen Colbert. Why do you think he wrote
   
   "Q: Is it better to be loved or feared?"
   
   "A: It is best to be both, but if you can only have one choose fear"(!)
   
   That is not something that was meant to be taken SERIOUSLY! Discourses on Livy (another book by Machiavelli) proves what I am telling you.
   
   Pragmatism is a philosophical tradition that began in the United States around 1870, by philosophers such as John Dewey.
   
   I wasted most of my childhood in church hearing preachers such as yourself make up the facts to suit whatever point they wanted to make. I hope no one will take seriously anything you have written here.
   
   Sincerely!

   • 

     Lydia February 13, 2014 Reply

     Jeremy, not sure what point you were trying to make as your comment took nothing away, nor added to the article. Sounds like you had some poor Christian examples growing up, maybe not, either way, we as believers follow Christ, the perfect and Holy One, not you, Billy Graham or God forbid, me...neither your pastor. It is Jesus that has come to save and lift up the broken and lost...you and me...God loves you, Jeremy.

10. 

    Lydia February 13, 2014 Reply

    I for one, really enjoyed this article, though it saddens me how more and more rampant the disease and deception from this "mind set" is bringing destruction, confusion and disenchantment into the church (as a whole), a place that should be a haven for lost and broken souls to meet the Savior, be mentored by men of faith and integrity and encouraged to walk a pure, honest life drawing others to the Lord. It is kept alive and well fed through ego and pride....the same sins as seen at the beginning in the Garden....may God help us all to recognize and stand against the enemy!

11. Early Warnings of a False Authority | Recovering Grace May 18, 2014 Reply

    […] business. To this extent individual freedom has been discarded for the sake of uniformity, pragmatism, and success.”[viii] Fisher writes in the same tone: “I am concerned that the Institute in […]