Recovering Grace ran across an excellent post analyzing one of the teachings from the Basic Seminar, and we received permission to republish.
I am taking a class at Oak Brook College of Law called Life Principles for Lawyers. In this class, we are studying Bill Gothard’s Basic Seminar material. You can look it up if you’re interested; here I only want to talk about the Reprobation chart. (Please forgive my handwriting. I am a better typist than I am a note-taker). It looks like this:
This chart purports to show how a person progresses from the beginning of an idea or desire into full-blown reprobation—that time when the person’s conscience is “seared” and he no longer feels anything but happiness in committing a particular sin.
Let’s say that I begin at the bottom. I see a movie that shows bank robbery, and I think how fun it would be to rob a bank and have all that money. I am at level one. I am curious.
As I think about robbing a bank, my conscience is awakened (step 2). I fight against that for a while, but then I start in to thinking about the money in earnest. I am at step 3, sensual focus.
Now I begin to question Scripture. I say the law was fulfilled in Christ and I am no longer bound by it. Thou shalt not steal doesn’t apply to me. I am firmly on the fourth step. Now I move to step 5, violating conscience, by scoping out a few banks and maybe robbing the Walgreens just to get a little practice before moving on to banks.
(They don’t catch me because I wear my “thin suit” and thus don’t fit the description of the fat lady who had to squint at her stick-up note written on the back of her hand so she wouldn’t forget what to say.)
Guilt awakens, step six. I feel bad. I feel really really bad that I took advantage of my thin suit and robbed the poor night checker.
Step 7. I respond to my guilt by crying, throwing up, thinking about calling the police. I seamlessly move on to Step 8, incomplete repentance, by crying and praying all night long. It’s incomplete because I don’t drive to the Sacramento PD and turn in the money and myself. I keep the money. I spend the money. I like the new purse and shoes.
However, in order to salve my conscience I involve myself in (step 9) religious compensation—I start attending Wednesday night “6:13 Prayer Meeting” at my church and maybe even sign up to help with VBS. I stand there smiling and handing out juice boxes. My guilt is somewhat assuaged, especially if I used some of the “take” to buy the juice. Juice in individual boxes is expensive. Good thing I robbed the Walgreens!
Without missing a beat, step 10, frustration over my drive to steal kicks in. I enjoyed that money. I want more. Plus, the thrill of the criminal outing.
I re-examine Scripture (step 11) and focus on the parts that seem to say everyone should be treated the same and people who amass a lot of money through putting up Walgreens stores on every corner are some kind of horrible. I justify my urge to steal. I steal again. I line up some banks. I keep robbing them.
At some point along my journey, I justify my stealing (I need the money. I give ten percent to Capital Christian Center. I donate to the Dining Common project.). At last, I reach the top of the Reprobation chart, where I have no pangs of conscience and I can even be a bank robbery apologist (step 13, Argumentation). I have reached the top (or rather, bottom) of my moral life: I am a happy bank robber.
So, I think this chart is correct.
Except. The exact same progression happens when you come to a place of Christian liberty about something in your life that was once forbidden.
(I tried to share this with a friend the other day, but I mucked about and put my foot so far into my mouth that I basically choked to death and have been afraid of even saying hello to him since…so I’m trying again here with a different example.)
FOR EXAMPLE: Contemporary Christian Music.
Let’s say that all your life, you were taught and you believed that Twila Paris, Sandi Patti, Nicole C. Mullen, and Hillsong United were of the devil.
For the sake of brevity, let’s leave it in chart form:
1. Natural Curiosity—you were tuning your radio and you chanced upon “Redeemer” by Ms. Mullen. You couldn’t unhear it. You listened. Your heart was “strangely warmed.” You said, “Amen, sister!” At “I spoke with Him this morning,” you cried.
2. Awakening of Conscience—you feel guilty. You’re not supposed to listen to this stuff. It’s evil. It’s bad. It’s wrong for you. It will cause your foot to slide in due time.
3. Sensual Focus—you can’t forget how that song made you feel. About Jesus. You want to hear it again. You wonder what other amazing songs are out there.
4. Questioning Scripture—you pore over the Scripture, all the places you can find for songs, hymns, spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. You can’t find anywhere that says a song declaring, “I know my Redeemer lives,” is evil.
Teeny-tiny additional half-step
4 ½. YOU QUESTION THE ORIGINAL PROHIBITION—you’ve now come to a place where you realize Scripture does not prohibit your listening to this song. Maybe the RULE IS WRONG.
5. Violation of Conscience—you start to listen to more new music. (Yes, I realize “Redeemer” is 12 years old. It’s just an example, people.) You feel guilty because all your life you’ve been forbidden this pleasure—and it really is a pleasure. You really are blessed in your spirit. You are encouraged in your faith.
6. Awakening of Guilt—you feel guilty because you are hiding your new listening habits from others. You agree when they talk about music standards.
7. Response to Guilt—you try to listen to Fanny Crosby more and more. You feel trapped—you know Hillsong’s “Lead Me to the Cross” is good for you, but your early training is pulling at you.
8. Incomplete repentance—you try to find musical satisfaction the old fashioned way, but you are never able sincerely to say that you know “The Warrior is a Child” or “Was it a Morning Like This?” (Did the grass sing? Did the earth rejoice to feel You again?) or Keith Green’s “There is a Redeemer” is evil. (Again, sorry for decades old examples. New examples would be better.)
9. Religious Compensation—maybe you continue to nod and talk cheerfully and exclusively about traditional music. You choose only the old stuff for your group. You say Amen at all the traditional places. Or not, if you’re Baptist.
10. Frustration over drives—because you have to hide your new CCM habit, you know, that music that feeds your soul, that brings you to Jesus and brings you to tears.
11. Re-Examining Scripture—again, you go over all the Scriptural portions touching on music. Now you can’t see how you ever ever thought the prohibition against new music made any sense. Sure, there’s stuff that’s simply no good and stuff that needs tweaking, but my goodness, Salieri was no Mozart, and not everyone is Ira Sankey!
12. Justification of Immorality—you’ve now come to understand that lots of the new music is fine and dandy, thanks so much.
13. Argumentation—you talk about it. And you listen to it loud while driving down the road, while rising up early and staying up late, when chatting with friends, while hanging out. You happily sing hymns in church, but you equally happily enjoy your new Gospel/Worship music in your life.
I know this is long and boring, but my point is, the same chart can be used to show moving toward sin or moving toward liberty.
The hard part may be deciding which of those you are doing. Once you’ve figured that out—is this a sin I am attempting to make palatable to myself or a liberty I need to strive toward—you know whether you are sliding into reprobation or climbing into freedom.
Author Notes:
* The author admits to having stolen answers off an algebra test in 1975 and once overlooking a nail polish that was wedged in a shopping cart (it failed to get onto the conveyor belt, but made it out to the van), but she has never robbed a Walgreens or a bank.
* The author further admits that her favorite Twila Paris song is “Runner.” (Runner, when the race is won, you will run into His arms.) This song took her through an extraordinarily difficult time.
* The author is fine with traditional hymns in church. It’s the condemnation of people’s personal music on their personal time that grates.
July 31, 2024
Will u be my lawyer? Great article here...
Yes. I remember feeling horrendous jabs of my conscience as I listened to Casting Crowns, wondering if I was deeply offending God or not. The songs would lift up my spirit, bring me encouragement, and make me eager to be with God and spend time with Him. Old hymns make me do that too, but it's as if I'd found a 'hidden wellspring' of good things when I listened to certain songs. And 'My Redeemer Lives' is one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard, absolutely full of life! It never gets old, it's so full of hope! Then I realized that God was just as pleased as I was, at me drawing nearer to Him. Alrighty then!
A Casting Crowns concert was the first CCM concert I attended. Their music helped me finally break the last chains that were holding me back from listening to praise/worship music.
I can completely relate, Heather. I still struggle with my conscience over watching movies, and listening to music similar to Casting Crowns.
Excellent post. It very much describes part of my journey, down to the fact that "Redeemer" was one of the songs that broke down my beliefs about the evils of rock music.
This brings back so much. This stupid chart. This horrible chart!
When I hit puberty, anything female made me crazy and I truly believed at age 13 or so, that I was in full-on reprobation, and there were times I feared for my soul because of it. I second-guessed anything I did that was "religious" because what if it was merely step 9, compensation?
Ironic how the Institute trumpets that they believe in "God's wisdom" versus "man's wisdom" and yet, where is the chapter and verse for this thing? There ain't one, because it's "man's wisdom."
And step 13? Argumentation as the final point of no return off the falls of reprobation? I suppose Jesus was at step 13 in his various arguments with the religious leaders of his day...
A chart like this will only bring bondage, slavery, guilt, leading to death. It cannot bring heart change and life.
Conversely, Paul gives us the road forward if we want heart change and life change. Gal 5, Eph 4, Col 3 among other passages speak to Spirit vs. flesh, to taking off and putting on. 1 John speaks to confessing and to walking in the light.
I remember that song, "Runner!" Ironically, it was one of the things that encouraged me in my walk as I kept trying to respond in godly ways to abuses that were happening in my home (abuses fueled by things like the hammer and chisel diagram, another winner). While I was punished (frankly, abused, but mercifully not as bad as some in other families were) for my supposed "rebellion," I am the one who pursued God the most when I left home and have continued to pursue him via seminary, church service, study, etc.
Annie Herring, and also the Second Chapter of Acts (hymns, no less!) were also early encouragements on my own journey forward (and in dealing with an oppressive home environment), and evidence that BG's obsession with "Christian rock" was misinformed and misplaced.
U would think by now that bill would be hanging his head in shame and confessing and apologizing to hundreds--no --thousands of people that he is a controller and a twister of scripture.. but I guess that maybe First John 1:8 doesn't apply to him?....I have to believe that he follows this site,, or has one of his sheeple follow it for him.
The key difference is "awakening of conscience". That is it! Conscience is from the Lord . . . but questioning and second-guessing and examining is not. The difference is down in our heart . . . and what our bent is.
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)
I have wrestled with all of that as much as anyone. I have come to a place of faith on a number of issues where I previously had doubt, things that others condemn. But the key is that I could find a place of clear conscience based on faith, on God's Word. I make it my business to be always to give be able account to Jesus - and anyone else whose job it is to check - on each activity, choice, association.
There is a world of difference between uncertainty based on things others have taught us . . . and a dirty conscience because we secretly love darkness.
Is this how it happened to Eve in the garden? Did she go through all those steps when the serpent asked her to have a bite of the forbidden fruit?
Like my mom said it wasn't the apple in the tree, it was the pair on the ground. i
"...the pair on the ground." Haha! That's cute, esbee, and oh-so-true.
this is what I find most interesting about this website. this chart and teaching actually showed me how fake I was being in my Christian walk and challenged me to stop playing games in certain areas of my life... BUT I was in my mid twenties and not 13!! (LOL @ Matt being a 13 yr old reprobate - it was the same for me :)) I won't even touch CCM, 'cause I'll probably be barbequed, but I will say that it is unwise to simply make a blanket statement and say that everything involved with ______ is wrong, especially when ________ is vast in scope. Twaila Paris evil? c'mon ... really?
I can easily grant different experiences, there, grateful. Surely for some people it was a wake-up call that God used for good (though I would guess that there must have been other good influences that also came into play in that case, but who knows).
For me, I was told in no uncertain terms that "Christian Rock" was sensual, and that it had done every bit as much good for the church as "Christian Pornography" and that if I were to disagree, that's argumentation and rebellion (which as is as the sin of witchcraft and will get you "beaten" and grounded). The Christian Rock in focus was Twila Paris, Michael Card, Scott Wesley Brown, Keith Green, and Petra. Keith Green was killed by God because he was rebellious, I was told. I find it presumptuous in hindsight to declare that someone has died because God killed them in judgement. People should be extremely careful in assigning literal God-damnation on others. (I think I have an attitude tonight, so I 'm sorry if I'm being rude).
It's interesting, I went to an acoustic concert of two guys from Petra. The gospel was preached clearly. They preached the gospel at all of their concerts. Frankly, I think the gospel was presented more faithfully and more often by Petra than by BG. I'm not going to say Petra was perfect or that everyone who converted at one of their concerts stayed with it, but I do honestly think they overall gave a more faithful gospel presentation. That's my own opinion, and I'm sure good people can disagree.
But to your point, grateful, my own experience does not render yours invalid. Though I would be curious, was it this chart that pointed the way back to the straight and narrow for you? Or did you have other influences on top of Gothard to help lead the way?
When Keith Green and 2 of his children died in the plane crash- about 2 hours south from where I live, a church member made this comment... "the world was not worthy of him"
in other words he was so God-minded, good, focused on Jesus...that he would not have been appreciated had he stayed.
AND if killing worldly Christians for sensual sin is God's modus operandi, then there are 2 women, who sang in Maranantha groups in the 70's at Calvary Chapel that recently came out as lesbians who should be on God's hit list !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ Matthew - there were three or four topics that I came away from the Basic having dramatically influenced my walk. This chart and the thermometer are two examples and both convicted me of areas in my life where I knew I was not being honest with God or myself. However, I want to be clear, truth is truth and God can use a variety of means to demonstrate His truth and bring righteous conviction, however,one thing the Basic DID NOT do (and has been documented elsewhere on RG) is bring enough hope. It often left me in a state of conviction and hopelessness, and, had I not been in the faith long enough to recognize I had nowhere else to turn but to Jesus, I would have walked away primarily disillusioned, discouraged and defeated. That is the fallacy of legalism, you can never live up to it. Indeed, the law is meant to be used as a school master to break us such that then cry out for mercy and grace, having nowhere else to turn.
As far as Keith Green, shame on them that pronounced God's judgment on him! Perhaps they should recognize that they will be judged by the same standard by which they judged him. The ironic twist is that he (KG) preached a "holiness" message and was strong on separation from the world - a message right up IBLP's alley. Love Keith Green. Some of you youngsters reading this website, go find the Prodigal Suite - classic.
Bravo Esbee (above)
[...] https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/07/reprobation-or-christian-liberty/#more [...]
[…] Oak Brook College of Law (based in Fresno, California but sharing the same name as IBLP’s geographical location — namely, Oak Brook, Illinois) was launched by ATI itself. In fact, OBCL is still listed on IBLP’s website as one of IBLP’s educational programs and their graduation ceremonies were held at IBLP Training Centers. Not only that, but law students at OBCL study Bill Gothard’s Basic Seminar material. […]