I grew up in Bill Gothard’s Advanced Training Institute of America (ATIA, later renamed ATI) home school program from 1985 through 2005 — twenty years! I worked at five different Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) training centers run by Bill Gothard and his staff, as well as working at IBLP Headquarters in Oak Brook, Illinois, for nearly three years. During those three years, I worked personally for a year with Bill Gothard himself on an almost daily basis, running the Headquarters kitchen as well as working in a side business run by IBLP. I was later on the IBLP staff for nearly two years after I was married.
My life at home in my early twenties was miserable. I felt trapped in a world of working towards everyone else’s goals except my own. I had dreams of working in the medical field, but ATI told my parents that higher education through a college was dangerous and wrong, and that women were to be quiet, stay at home, cook, clean, and care for children. Many people have asked me why I did not run away or try to escape. It’s simple: I had almost no money, since my parents needed and took much of what I earned. My parents controlled every part of my life, including who my friends were and what I did every moment of every day. I was taught that God would curse me if I tried to do anything on my own. There was no leaving without my parents’ permission. I was in a mental, emotional, economic, and spiritual prison. My parents now regret many of their earlier decisions. My mother is an amazing woman, who now inspires me to still work toward my dreams, even though I’m nearly forty years old.
I was first sent to IBLP Headquarters after being sexually assaulted on my twenty-fourth birthday by a male ATI student of adult age. My parents, my family’s pastor (also in ATI), and our ATI Family Coordinator spoke to Bill Gothard and, at his advice, sent me to the Headquarters publicly from our church, in shame, to be an “encouragement case.” [Editor’s Note: The Institute historically uses the term Leader in Training, or LIT, to designate a juvenile delinquent assigned to the Institute by a court system, or placed in unofficial Institute custody by the LIT’s own family. The term “encouragement case” is historically used to designate a young person who is not officially an LIT, but is regarded as a troubled individual who must either earn their way to a morally respectable status, or may be re-designated as an LIT.] They all said I must have encouraged this guy’s advances, and that I was partly to blame. No one suggested that I should call the police. Sex education had not been a part of my schooling at home. It took me years to understand that what had been done to me was a crime, and that I could have gone to the police and pressed charges against my assailant.
I discovered later that the young men at IBLP headquarters were specifically warned to avoid me, because I was “that kind of girl.” Bill Gothard knew I had not asked to be sexually assaulted and had been following the “rules” by having my parents’ permission to be in the public place when the assault occurred. I had served in a couple of different ATI training centers in the years prior to the assault, and I had no reputation for chasing or snagging guys. In his office, I told Bill every detail of what had happened during the assault, and he had me pray with him that God would forgive me and bring about great things in my life. Bill advised me to avoid talking to men, and to focus on serving well in whatever job I was given.
After working on staff at the Headquarters for about a year, I nearly walked in on one of the married directors having sex with his secretary. I was very naïve, not sexually educated, and I did not even realize what was going on behind that locked door. I cannot believe I was so ignorant, but I was. The very next morning, Bill Gothard called me on the phone in my office to tell me that, according to this director, I needed to go home that day and “work on my relationship with my parents.” Confused, I tried to talk to Bill, reminding him about the mild physical abuse and severe emotional abuse I had received at home. He brusquely cut me off and hung up, saying that the decision had been made and that I needed to go back and learn to respond correctly to my parents.
Several months later that director revealed his infidelity, and another staff member gave Bill the information that I had been sent home after doing nothing wrong. Bill himself called and apologized, asking me to return to Headquarters and work in two different departments. I often worked 100+ hours per week between the two job responsibilities but was, for the most part, paid only minimum wage for 40 hours each week. This was standard practice for my coworkers as well. We did not have electronic time card machines or computers to keep track of our work hours. Instead, we were given cards and told to hand write our hours worked each day. We were strongly “encouraged” to not report our overtime hours on our time sheets. We were told that the ministry just didn’t have the funds to pay everyone for overtime, and that we were working for a heavenly purpose, after all. We were told if we felt truly led to the ministry, we should not report our worked overtime because IBLP could get into trouble for not paying us for it. I am certain Bill Gothard knew about this, since he controlled every small decision made, especially regarding IBLP money. [Editor’s note: During the time that the author worked at Headquarters, Bill Gothard personally confronted and rebuked at least one staffer for accurately reporting hours worked, chastising the young man for not “volunteering” the hours he worked beyond forty per week.]
When I was in Bill’s office, he hugged me, sat hip-to-hip with me on the office sofa while we talked and prayed alone, and played footsie with me a couple of times. At the time I thought of him as a grandfatherly type, and I idolized him as a modern day apostle Paul, as my parents also did. Bill picked me up in his car alone several times, and I saw him pick up other girls alone in his car to spend hours alone with them in his office. I honestly did not think much about it at the time, although I was uncomfortable and wondered why he was breaking his own rules.
There were only two of us, the boss and I, working in one of the departments to which I was assigned. Bill had fired more than forty of the other staff members from that department, because they would not do what he wanted. Being regularly alone with a male is not allowed for a female at Headquarters usually, but Bill told me that there shouldn’t be any trouble because this guy was younger than I was. My boss and I were under such pressure to complete the tasks that the previous forty staff members had that we often worked through the night, not leaving our desks except for restroom breaks. After a number of months, our mutual respect grew to admiration, then adoration.
The guy told me that God had told him I was going to be his wife and asked whether I was willing. I said yes, and in the months that followed he and I prayed together and made future plans together. We planned when we would marry the next year, where we would live, and talked of having children. I wanted to go through the proper channels for a courtship and marriage, but my fiancé did not, saying that, due to our age difference, he needed to break the news to his parents in his own way and time. Since I was his subordinate, and thought I was going to be his future submissive wife, I complied obediently. We eventually started kissing; there was heavy petting and hugging. We came up with excuses for our behavior, knowing it was against the rules, but telling ourselves that we were engaged to be married.
Then I uncovered several serious and disturbing things about my fiancé. He had “borrowed” money from IBLP for his own personal company without permission, saying that he would repay it, but after several months still had not. He had hacked into others’ computers on IBLP property. He had withheld information from Bill Gothard, and given Bill misleading information regarding the department. He even told me of his desire to eventually take over the company and run it for himself.
Around the same time, I discovered the most devastating news of all from one of his family members: he had been courting another girl in another state for months with his parents’ permission, all while still telling me how much he loved me and meeting me secretly on dates. When I confronted him, he said our relationship was over, and that he would ruin my reputation if I told Bill. He threatened to make it look like I had done wrong things by planting false information on my computer. He even pressured me to sneak onto another coworker and friend’s computer to see if she was breaking the rules, and by doing so, I found out she was having a romantic relationship with another guy in our now-expanded department. Later, my boss used this action to turn this coworker and several other friends against me.
In grief and despair, I called Bill Gothard and told him everything. Bill immediately came down to Headquarters from the Northwoods and called me into his office. He let me cry on his shoulder at one point, and seemed to understand. However, when the guy’s family attacked me and falsely accused me of various things, Bill refused to listen to me further. I pleaded with him to believe me, but instead Bill told me I was not to speak to anyone. The family told a number of my friends and coworkers their son’s side of the story, showed up at my Headquarters apartment and forced me to give them my computer that contained incriminating evidence against their son, and called me on the phone attacking me, saying that I was ruining their family’s reputation. My father and I went in person to talk to Bill Gothard, and he just said a lot of things to calm us down, then sent us away.
The day I left Oak Brook, Bill made me stand up in front of all of the Headquarters staff, over 200 people at that time, and forced me to confess to things I had not done. No one at Headquarters would speak to me, and many shunned me for years afterwards. I tried talking to Bill again, in person and on the phone, before I left, and he acted as if he were sympathetic toward me but said the decision had been made and that I was no longer to talk about it. Bill told me that if only I had made a vow that I would never marry a man younger than I, this relationship never would have happened. Bill gave me some cash out of his desk drawer and paid for my airline ticket, since I had very little money, and sent me, at the age of 26, to the girls’ log cabin program in Oklahoma as an LIT to be “reprogrammed.”
I found myself in rural Oklahoma, isolated from the outside world, in unofficial custody from which I had no means to escape. All of my new dreams, hopes, and goals had been destroyed. Everyone I had trusted to protect me and love me had completely shattered my heart.
Nine months after I left the Headquarters, Bill came through Oklahoma and visited the girls’ log cabin program. He told me of some of the truth about my ex-fiancé that had been discovered by others, and he was now planning to send the family away quietly. Bill said he hoped that I had learned my lesson, gave me his handkerchief to dry my tears, and reiterated that I was to talk to no one about what had happened. There was no apology from him, and no attempt at restoring my good name after the untrue confessions he had pressured me to make. I believe he still felt justified in how he had treated me, since I had broken the rules by having a romantic relationship without my fiancé’s parents’ or my parents’ permission, even though we were adults.
Almost two years later I married a truly awesome guy who was also working for IBLP in a different state. Since IBLP was so short on funds, my husband had been asked to work full-time off-property and volunteer his hours working for IBLP. We served for nearly two more years after we married, working as full-time volunteers. I was often instructed by one of the directors to work in the kitchen, to clean rooms, and to answer the office phone, even when it was my husband’s only day off. We had precious little time together as a newlywed couple, and were exhausted from serving. When I asked whether the leadership could please put me on lighter duty, due to the fact that I had just had two miscarriages in one year, I was told that we didn’t need to focus on having children right now, that we instead needed to focus on the ministry.
Eventually my husband and I were asked by Bill, via that director, to either “give 110 percent” without pay or leave our Institute housing. We were then told not to say anything negative about IBLP or our circumstances to anyone and to quietly leave the property. We left. Years later we heard from another IBLP staff member that Bill had asked this director to get rid of a certain number of staff, because IBLP didn’t have the money to support them. The situation had been presented to my husband and I purely as a failing on our part.
I personally know many amazing and dear people who are currently in the ATI program or still working for IBLP. Their personal goals are to serve God and to help people in need. I have many pleasant memories of working with wonderful people in IBLP who spurred me on and inspired me in my walk with Christ. My own parents enrolled because they saw the evil in our world, and wanted so much to protect their children from that evil. It is obvious now that living in a bubble and making vows do not keep people from sin. I have completely forgiven Bill Gothard and the others who hurt me during my years with IBLP. My prayer is that others will read these accounts, and begin to search the Word of God for themselves, comparing it to the teachings of IBLP and Bill Gothard.
After spending years of my life under my parents’ extreme control, as well as the strict control at every IBLP facility where I worked, I still wake up a couple of nights each week with nightmares of being trapped, once again, under the tyranny of being subject to someone else’s every whim. My husband has been understanding and patient, fully supportive of me as I learn how to make decisions for myself, no matter how small or large. It is sad to think that I could have graduated from college, gotten a decent paying job, and saved money for my future family when I was younger. Instead all of my youth was spent working for others, and now instead of starting to reap the fruit of my labors, I’m still plowing my fields at nearly 40.
I have found a deep peace, freedom from man-made rules, and utter joy in living for Christ. Praise God that I am no longer bound by the fear that I have not done enough for Him. My life is not about me and what I do; it’s about a Savior who has already done all for me. I cannot do any more or any less to please Him. I wear Christ’s robes of righteousness. I stand before Him with an open heart, and I know that I am accepted, loved, cherished, and approved by God through Christ. I am free!
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. —John 8:36
Joy spent twenty years in ATI and IBLP as a student, volunteer, and staff member. She is a wife and a mom to three young children.
July 31, 2024
Joy's last paragraph is SO beautiful! God's grace is amazing-to enable someone to recover all that she went through. And it's beyond amazing that BG was allowed to continue his regime for so long. And still is, by the looks of things. Lord help us all.
This is beautiful, Joy! I'm so deeply saddened to hear all that you went through but grateful that God is meeting you and drawing you closer to Himself as you walk in the grace He has provided for you. You are SO loved!!
Thank you for the courage to share this story Joy. I know it is difficult to talk about these things so publically.
Anyone doubting that ATI is a cult should read this story.
So grateful for God's grace! Thank you for the putting your story out there. I know it was emotionally taxing to write it out and deal with all those memories again. That last paragraph was perfect.
May God continue to bless you and give you peace that passes all understanding.
Thanks for sharing your story Joy. It has many sad and troubling facets to it. Yet it is clear that God is doing a good and gracious work in your heart. May you continue to walk in the freedom that comes from the righteousness of Christ. God bless you.
Joy, Thank you for sharing...not sure those deceitful tactics are not still happening. according to a little birdie on the window pain. Just for the record.
Betty,
From one little birdie to another, I will say that most of these things are still happening. Just for the record.
Thank you Joy for sharing your story. Very compelling stuff, yet another example of indefensible behavior from IBLP "leadership".
Joy you quite possibly can still press a criminal (and civil) case against your assailant from when you were 24 years old. Hope and pray you can do so, pieces of human scum who commit such acts need to face the consequences of their acts, regardless of their religious affiliations.
Yet another example of a criminal event being covered up by IBLP/ATI. Anyone care to defend this heinous, inexcusable behavior? If so you need a reality check.
Thanks for sharing your story, Joy.
"sat hip-to-hip with me on the office sofa while we talked and prayed" I know that this is just a small part of what you shared, but I have NEVER known a male minister who sat anywhere other than ACROSS from a female he was counseling or praying with. I've been reading here for months, but somehow this 'hip-to-hip' counseling still shocked me. It just confirmed (again) that BG is SO FAR OUTSIDE appropriate ministerial behavior. And definitely NOT above reproach.
This can be a useful red flag for any woman concerned about the behavior of her own counselor or pastor.
Yes, and NEVER ALONE! I was a secretary of a church for a few years and I was always there right next door if he was a meeting with a woman.
"I felt trapped in a world of working towards everyone else’s goals except my own."
I know that feeling.
I think almost everyone here can relate to that feeling.
After working four years at the Institute, 40-100 hours per week, I had $10 to my name, no car, and a just a GED.
For a young man with big hopes and dreams, that is a low feeling.
People reached out to me, though.
A friend of the family encouraged me to apply for Pell grants and helped me get some scholarships.
My mom told me that I was capable of being a PhD... that floored me. I never completed Algebra 1 in ATI.
10 years later, I'm happily married, debt free (including owning a home) working on an MBA- so no, I'm not bitter. God has blessed. I'm in a church with a conga drum, jeans, and a heart for loving people. I'm finding that God is using people in jeans AND navy suits. God used a long haired guy with a donkey's jawbone AND Charles Spurgeon. He uses writers of sacred hymns and the flip-flopped conga player.
Little baby
I am a poor boy too
I have no gifts to bring
That's fit to give a King
Shall I play for you
On my drum?
Mary nodded
I played my drum for Him
I played my best for Him
Then He smiled at me
Me and my drum
Deep theology from The Little Drummer Boy minus the ba rum pum pumming.
@Daniel: I was so with you ....until the flip-flops... I'm not even going to ask if thou art inked up shudder....
@ Greg, actually, no ink. ;-)
It's funny, because there are a variety of folks at church and its really not about using clothes for taxonomy. Kind of a new feeling.
Daniel it is wonderful your Mom reminded you who you are as an intelligent man. Congratulations on reaching for that MBA.
I had to laugh at this "I'm finding that God is using people in jeans and navy suits." though.
For the past 10 years I have done a carpentry and my husband is a corporate EVP. We would have problems if my jeans didn't stack up to his navy suits. I would hate to have to worship in the back of the sanctuary while he is in front.
Thank you for sharing your blessings.
Daniel -
I agree about the jeans and navy suits. And I never liked The Little Drummer Boy & all the rum pa pumming - until now! Thanks!
Daniel, you are right on! Thanks for sharing, God uses ALL things together for the good of those who love him, so even the hard or frustrating things can still turn into amazing outcomes.
Hold up, Joy. You should be thanking Bill and the gang for treating you like that. They were following the non-optional principle of Matthew 5:11–12 because they wanted you to have a great reward in heaven. Just sing another chorus of It Will Be Worth It All and think of the shiny crowns.
Seriously though, thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you've found peace and joy now.
Joy, thank you for your testimony! I remember being in EXCEL with you. Thank you for a testimony that is clear, detailed, and concise. I am so sorry all this happened to you.
Joy,
Thank you so much for having the courage to tell your story. I know this must have been very painful to have to relive all of this.
It breaks my heart to hear how all of those who should have been there to protect you did not and that those whose authority you were placed under did you such harm.
Your story, like so many others, should be proof to anyone that this organization is rotten to the core. Your story demonstrates how, on so many levels, in so many areas, that this organization is corrupt. The problems run so deep and are so many,from many of the individuals who wield the power in the organization and abuse it and overwork their workers, to the teachings themselves that denied you a voice and your dream of working in the medical field. That you, and so many others, were made to work 100 hour weeks, while being encouraged to lie for the institutes' advantage, so that they would not have pay overtime, is disgusting. People can have serous health issues when made to put their bodies through that kind of stress for prolonged periods of time.
I want to strongly encourage you to consider talking taking legal action against Bill Gothard and the institute. There are several legal violations that you mention, and your story is recent enough that some of them may be actionable legally. I know that this is probably not in your nature to do this, but they are most likely continuing to abuse people in this way and overwork them. Taking action will help prevent abuse of other people who are currently in the system or will be in the future.
Also, you are completely entitled to receive compensation for all that time worked. That money could be used to take the financial pressure off of your young family right now. Perhaps it could be used for you or your husband to pursue a higher degree that IBLP's teachings denied you.
Working those kind of hours causes great stress, and when subjected to that for prolonged periods, this can lead to long term medical issues. I wonder how many former IBLP employees are suffering from stress related chronic health issues due to being worked to the bone by the institute? I wonder how many have died premature deaths due to this abuse? Anyway, I just hope that you prayerfully consider it.
I am so happy that you have now found a deep peace and freedom from man-made rules! It is wonderful that you have joy in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
One thousand percent agreed, Kevin.
Joy, good on you for joining the group of people who refuse to be silent and "just let it go" about the outrages perpetrated by IBLP in general and Bill Gothard personally. I know God will reward your strength and bravery. May you continue to find peace.
I agree as well, Joy.
Thank you for going through all it took to write this out. Not pleasant memories. Know that you are helping so many others by your willingness to tell your story.
We were in ATI for 11 years and have seen such tremendous fall-out. I am not being vindictive when I say it needs to stop. It is just what is wisest.
You testimony to God's grace and goodness is wonderful and encouraging! Thank you.
Thank you so much for making yourself vulnerable to share your story. It is a great step of faith and I appreciate it so much. I was so encouraged to see the progression of your healing to such a place of peace and security in Christ alone. It gives others here hope that maybe just maybe it can happen for them also. Each individual heals in their own way and own time. Thank you RG for first allowing the problem to be exposed so true healing can come to so many. In reality, this exposure is the loving grace of God in action. Sometimes, it takes situations like this to move a person to true repentance. I pray for each and every one who has told their stories. I pray for BG to fully realize the depth of sorrow that he has caused. I also pray that he receives the grace and forgiveness that God so freely offers that truly we don't deserve, but God, in His infinite love, pours out to each and every one of us. God bless you and your family!!!!
I agree with Kevin, there needs to be a lawsuit against IBLP or they will never stop abusing. I love that this story brings out the abuses of the work place, the illegal lack of payment for overtime while working employees exhausting hours.
I cannot imagine going through the false accusations and shaming that you endured. It was so very wrong. The way IBLP counsels people to treat victims of sexual assault is wrong and so damaging.
Thank you for sharing your story Joy!
It's beyond wrong, it's evil. BG has demonstrated this evil treatment of so many over decades. This cannot be rationalized or dismissed as no big deal. Wait, I just realized this is exactly what will be done. That is why it has occurred for decades and continues today...
Yes, anyone who actively hides criminal acts like sexual assault is just as guilty as the original suspect and is an accomplice of the crime. It is evil beyond description when it is committed by persons who are supposed to be "shepherds" over their flock. The meek little lambs are to be protected, NOT sacrificed for the alleged reputations of their attackers.
This just highlights how corrupt the teachings of "do not give a bad report" really is.
This is the problem Sad; these people are not ordained "shepherds." They have not gone through the formal training and stringent accountability that nearly all ordained ministers go through; and I am not just talking about BG, but his staff as well. I am just very wary of all para-church ministries.
I noticed that the nanny to Doug Phillips is suing him. Her reason is because she wants to let others know that this sort of behavior is wrong. It is the only way its not being swept under the rug.
I am not big on suing but it appears this may be the best way for true transparency and accountability to occur.
I agree Sally!
Plus while there is much talk of forgiveness, there is no mention of restitution. Someone truly penitent would seek this.
"bill had me tell him in detail of my sexual assault".... Good gosh, is this man a pervert or what!? How many times have we read this? This man is also basically a slave owner. Alfred, when are you going to take the blinders off and admit that the king has no clothes? I thank God everyday for RG and for the truth that is being exposed.....please don't let the pressure off till bill is either in custody or issues banished to his northwoods w/o any of his under age playthings....
Anyone besides me notice how IBLP KNEW that not paying people was illegal (they knew it could get them into trouble) and did it anyway? Fine, upstanding Christian ministry that.
One could assume they also knew it was unethical, but given the multitude of witnesses that were all overworked/underpaid, they probably didn't care. People weren't people there.
"Anyone besides me notice how IBLP KNEW that not paying people was illegal (they knew it could get them into trouble) and did it anyway? Fine, upstanding Christian ministry that."
Yes Megan. How exactly did they slip that one by the non-optional principles?
Easy, kevin: Refusing to report overtime WAS the non-optional principle. My sister worked there for 4 years, and she can also attest to this. She was worked all-nighters for weeks before Knoxville and other major seminars, and then threatened to be fined if she went home to sleep instead of attending staff meeting the next morning following an all-night, unpaid, unrecorded work shift.
Yep, Bev, you are spot-on with this. I worked at HQ with your sister, and I remember the outrageously long nights we would work before K'ville ... and then the requirement that we work as usual on the next day. I also remember the 15-hour days at K'ville, and NONE of it was supposed to be claimed as overtime. I once worked through Labour Day holiday while everyone else was off, and I don't think I got paid for that day. I didn't get holiday pay or a comp day, as would be normal in most secular businesses if you worked on a paid holiday. I also worked through the night once on a project for Bill (He went home about 11; I worked through the night, literally.) ... and then went to staff meeting / work just as usual. Didn't get overtime for pulling a 30-hour day, either. I specifically remember being told not to write overtime on my time sheet.
Or when we had to mandatorily volunteer for an all night security shift at ITC and then perform our normal job the next day.
Exactly
they were young and moldable, and expendable
Bingo. ^^^
I am getting soooo angry! Reading about how volunteering was coerced and sleep denied to these young people whose parents believed that they were doing such a great work for God, and were themselves brainwashed into believing that submitting to abuse and lies was the will of God for their lives. I am glad that one who knew what was going on behind the scenes dissuaded me from encouraging my children to enter into service with the institute. Thanks, Donna.
"they were young and moldable, and expendable"
Yes, yes we were. I remember my time in Oklahoma when I told to fill in only 40 hours on my timesheet. It didn't matter anyway, because I was paid something like $100/week, regardless of how many hours I worked. (And I was one of the "lucky" ones who was paid at all!) I casually tracked the actual hours I worked and even had a contest with some of the other people there. One week, during a conference, we worked 100 hours in 5.5 days. Sadly, one of the people with whom I "competed" for hours worked had a stroke a few years after I left.
Years later, after I had joined the real world, I learned about the Dept. of Labor rules regarding such practices and was floored to learn that these practices were illegal.
Um......the Institute couldn't afford to pay? Does anyone believe this?
Then why did the institution venture into areas for which they did not have funds? Was that not also breaking yet another one of his principles???!!! When it comes right down to it, which one of Mr G's principles did Mr G actually follow?
Legally, he would have been allowed to let people have a choice of donating their time to the ministry but not forcing the donation of extra time/pvertime upon them.
Actually, as I understand it, it is illegal for a company to even allow an hourly worker to work unpaid overtime as a volunteer in any task that is part of their normal job description. (Volunteering for something like a special event that is NOT part of their job description is different.) This law is in place specifically to protect hourly workers from being pressured into "volunteering."
THAT is true.
Not sure if it's true in every state, but (as an hourly employee of a non-Gothard organization) I was required to take a 20min break for every 4hrs of scheduled work--I was amazed at the time, since I'd grown up in an ATI household where the project/ministry ruled supreme over all personal needs.
Nonprofits have different classifications of workers, and the IRS has guidelines that must be kept.
http://www.councilofnonprofits.org/resources/resources-topic/administration-and-management/managing-employees/classifying-employees-cor
I have no idea how Gothard's organizations classified their workers.
http://www.councilofnonprofits.org/news/nonprofit-knowledge-matters/nonprofit-knowledge-matters-labor-and-laborers
Exempt and non exempt guidelines for non profits.
List of jobs exempted from overtime.
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp
Live in status might be one of the loop holes.
My son volunteered at HQ for 3-4 years, earning no salary or wage. He was given a place to live, fed . . . and a $40/week stipend for incidentals. All worked out very well for him. He has been a paid staff member for the past 5-6 years . . . yes, getting paid overtime. They have been very strict on those rules - at least for the decade he has been there.
In the process he was trained to take and process video for an international ministry, setting up and directing sound and video for large seminars, mastering mainline software for producing top notch presentations for DVD or online streaming. He has been privileged to travel to nations around the globe as part of his responsibilities. Time will tell what all of that training is worth, but it makes for a great resume. It has been a win-win for him in every way imaginable.
Did your son have to pay his way on all the Int'l trips, too, or did IBLP cover those for him?
Good links on "exempt" vs. "non-exempt" employees. (Those guidelines are true, incidentally, whether you are working for a non-profit or a for-profit.)
The distinction can get a little fuzzy, and may vary by state, but there are some definite guidelines.
To be "exempt" - that is, able to be required to work overtime without pay - you must be making a certain minimum amount of money per week, which currently equates to something over $11 per hour for a 40-hour week (way over minimum wage).
You also must be doing a job where you are exercising "independent judgment" (instead of being told exactly what to do) and are using professional job skills related to education you have received. Pretty sure a young person with a high school diploma only (or not even that!) could not qualify as a "professional" in that sense of the word.
And if you are an exempt employee, there are some benefits to that too - even though you may not get paid for overtime, you can't get UNDER-paid if you happen to work less than 40 hours one week. If you take a few hours off to go to a doctor's appointment, they still have to pay you for the whole day. You have to get paid for holidays that happen during the regularly scheduled work week, whether you work that day or not. (If you are an hourly employee, then by definition you are paid by the hour rather than by the day and there is no requirement that you be paid for holidays or partial days off.)
Alfred, you wrote:
My son volunteered at HQ for 3-4 years, earning no salary or wage. He was given a place to live, fed . . . and a $40/week stipend for incidentals. All worked out very well for him....
I have no words (now) for this.... what the ??????
well, one sentence, here: Alfed: your phone is ringing, the self-esteem doctor will see you now
greg r---$40 a week is actually an improvement on what it used to be. Friends who worked at HQ & TCs in the 90's/early 00's would be paid around $20 a week for a "volunteer" stipend, or if they were hourly employees, less than minimum wage and only for the hours they were told they could report. Occasionally Bill would gather the staff and ask (read: emotionally manipulate) them to forego their pay for a short time, or take a decrease in pay, if the Institute was struggling financially. At times this was done in group sessions, where everyone was pressured to raise their hand if they agreed, so there was peer pressure not to disagree.
I know my sister was "technically" paid minimum wage at HQ, but the Institute deducted money for housing, 1 meal a day (most of which she couldn't eat b/c she was gluten intolerant), and incidentals, so she really only walked away with maybe $2 or $3 an hour by the time it was done. And no overtime, benefits, vacations, or paid time off, of course. But that's okay, because we were told that's what you DO in ministry---you sacrifice everything for God!
After leaving ATI/IBLP I have worked for several healthy Christian ministries and have come to realize just how messed up the Institute was in this area. Many young people gave the best years of their lives to build the empire of IBLP and were expected to live on next to nothing while doing so---all in the name of God, and sacrificing for "God's Kingdom."
And of course it's interesting to note that "God's Kingdom," while struggling, was sitting on a lot of money. The funds have decreased since the glory days when my sister worked there, but I understand that right now they're worth around $85 million in property and assets.
The loophole I was speaking of was that of Domestic live-in workers who are exempt from OT pay. Many of the young ladies working for the different centers were there as live-in housekeeping and kitchen staff.
I think it is telling of an organization that takes unfair advantage of their exempt staff.
I am speaking of any organization, not just IBLP/ATI. Nor am I saying the above is how they got around paying OT. It is just a possibility of why OT might not have been required.
@Alfred....Is your son able to support a wife and family on his earnings from IBLP?
Beverly: Ministry trips? About half and half (they pay, or he pays). Bill gave him a car, and paid for half of a second one. As far as supporting a wife, Eva, depends on the standard of living and purpose. When housing and meals are provided your need to earn is diminished. But . . . if and when, that would be a decision for the two of them. I know what his skills are worth in industry, so I am thinking he will have options when that time comes. His prior boss went on to work for CBN as their Israel video man . . . every production they do, he runs the technical side.
I just wanted to make the note that there is a difference between deciding on your own, or being forced to work a low paid or volunteer job.
When I was wrongfully shamed publicly and sent to the Headquarters, I honestly believed in the teachings of IBLP at that time. It wasn't until I was wrongfully sent to Oklahoma that I began to see Bill was not wearing a halo, and the teachings were damaging me, not helping or healing.
This is when I began to see there is a difference between serving and slavery. I had no choice in where I was going or what I was doing. Nothing I said or did would change the fact that men over me had absolute control of my life and how the next chapter began. It is a terrifying feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. I was man's slave, not God's servant.
no, I personally think they had the funds to pay, but this was yet another way to keep people in line and dependent on them, w/o money you couldn't get very far and so many of these were young people that had no experience navigating outside their sheltered lives before coming to HQ So, stepping out was scary and of course would bring shame on them and this is what BG counted on.
Christians need to be wary of all para-church ministries! They are NOT a church--with a board of elected and trusted elders and deacons. Their leaders are not ordained, often do not have sound theological training, and are often totally unaccountable. Before I was ordained in the Church of the Nazarene I had to complete college and seminary training that met the church's standard for ordination, and then I had to pastor for two years with yearly reviews. Finally, I had to go before a board of elders and answer questions about the church and my call to ministry. None of that occurred at IBLP or any para-church ministry that I now of. These people are often ignorant (and arrogant) wolves in sheep's clothing causing incredible harm to innocent people.
@Guy: whooooaaaahhh, there , buckaroo. ALL par-church ministries ?? Self-confession: this pushes a few of my buttons, because I went to a "NT style" house church in the 70's 80's that was very down on 'para's because 'they are not the church..'. Meanwhile, the national leadership of this church shared many of the same dysfunctions as Bill and Co. Yes, ecclesiology matters, but let's not get reckless , here. The core issue is the character of the leaders, and you can have what you believe to be a NT system, and the wrong leaders WILL muck it up. I'm all for sound theological training, but don't make that a bridge too far, either. It is possible to be a well educated apostate.
Hope this isn't too rant-ish this afternoon, Mr.Guy.
Hi Greg: Yes, I am painting with a wide brush--I know--but only because I have seen so much damage from para-church ministries. I would also include "House_church" ministries, you know the kind that Doug Phillips used to "pastor." I am against any Christian "church" or organization that does not have stringent, formal, theological training with real accountability. This was one of the reasons I was suspect with BG's teaching and Institute from the get-go. I saw the slick legalism and cultishness of this man, his groupies, and all of the organization's trappings. I realize that this is my conviction, but I strongly believe that it is a sound one. of course, you are free to disagree, this a a free country still--at least for a little while longer.
WE actually agree on quite a bit. It is not accident that many (not all) off the tracks theologies are led by those who are big into "Spirit led..." and scant on sound theological thinking or reasoning. No accident that Bill , who for himself accepted an honorary degree or two, was no friend of higher education. I thoroughly get that.
BTW: there are many paras that would agree with all your points 100%.
Thanks Greg: This may be the biggest concern of all about BG. I read Dr. Ron Allen's statement (of long ago) about BG yesterday, and it did confirm what I have felt for years. BG is against formal higher education because it critiques his (non)exegesis of the Bible in a way that is devastating to him and his ministry. This is my concern with nearly all para-church and home-church ministries. Yes, some are acceptable, but they are very rare. The spirit of the prophets must be subject to the body of the prophets themselves. When a man (or woman) eshews such accountability only damage can result--as we are seeing on this wonderful and needed website now.
In 1970 a couple of friends and I had our own para church/bus ministry at the age of 16. We live in the country about 35 miles from the closest church/town, and became an alternative for the Wednesday night prayer meeting and fellowship. Our Wednesday night studies were not "ordained" by our church, although our church knew about what we were doing, and prayed for our ministry. My parents kept a very close watch on what was being said and done. The goal of this ministry was to introduce other teens to Christ and to invite them to attend church with us on Sunday. The only money collected went for snacks. Transportation to and from church was provided for by our church. Church was a very important part of our ministry as we felt baptism and growth in Christ was the next steps needed that we were not able to adequately fulfill. Some went to other churches in the same town, but still joined us on Wednesdays.
I believe the best para church ministries understand the importance of the local church and will always encourage others to find a local church in addition to the para churches activities.
I worry about para church ministries that want to replace our need for a local church.
Yes, Nancy, I agree with you. However, so many Para-church ministries begin well and then feel led to become a church in themselves. Then they get so big and powerful that they become a cult (does this sound familiar?). What concerns me is when men and women get outside God-ordained authority (that is really only Biblically constituted in Christ's church) and become a church-unto-themselves. Here is where real damage can occur.
Like you I rejected what IBLP had to offer. I only went to one seminar in 1994 as requested by my minister, because my husband and I were Sunday School Superintendents. Because of our educational background we had a difficult time trying to figure out how Mr. Gothard reached certain conclusions.
I agree that there is a propensity for abuse as the para church ministries gain power. I will also agree the problem is intensified when the leadership of a para church is not under any church authority, and believe themselves above answering to anyone concerning their faulty theological interpretations. I also agree great caution needs to be exercised in getting involved. I think the scope of what hopes to be accomplished, and the limitations a para church ministry has needs to be well defined before the choice of involvement is made.
@GUY: I will nudge you a little. As I mentioned before, ecclesiology IS important, and having a definite structure of accountability a must... but those who want to evade accaountability, and those who are 'building an empire' will do so , whether its @ a para or a local church. In fact , the local church even looks more 'biblical', offers a better cover in some ways (Bill can say 'hey, I've always had my board of directors..') or he can say "I'm accountable to my local pastor" My point: there are a multitude walking the BG road this very day who are local church guys, who are hiding behind the 'NT' structure, who can present that as a guise for 'we've got that covered'.
My opinion: the character of the people involved matters much more than 'is it para or local church..'
I believe the best para church ministries understand the importance of the local church and will always encourage others to find a local church in addition to the para churches activities.
Yes, and the best para's make sure that they leave enough time FOR their people to make things like church, and family POSSIBLE, instead of just a lip service cliche in their promo materials. Good para's want their membership to thrive, and you can't thrive without both family time and church time.
I don't understand these statements about para-church ministries. Even bona fide churches with ordained pastors who subscribe to orthodox doctrine can become controlling and tyrannical in their approach. All it takes is getting the wrong person in charge with no one to challenge their leadership. I've seen it happen multiple times.
On the other hand, there are many wonderful, solid, responsible para-church organizations doing great ministry and mission.
Thank you, Joy, for being brave enough to share your story. For some reason, it spoke to me. Probably because you show, in just simply telling your story, how deeply dysfunctional this whole organization is.
Many godly, caring people have said this regarding ILBP/ATI over and over again for years and years, and more recently on this site, but we must keep on saying it: the system is rotten because the core is rotten! The entire system is built on false teachings and a warped view of God and His Word. By his continuous and wilful actions over many decades, BG has proven that he has an intensely warped view of the God, and he teaches that view to
others.
The older I get, the less hills I need to die on. But nothing, nothing! can make me angrier more quickly than seeing the vast, incredible, unbelievable damage done by those who not only weigh seekers and believers down with loads we were never meant to carry, but who also slam the open door of God's grace right in His face.
Just how many sheep need to be beaten bloody before the flock wakes up to the fact that they have been following a wolf in a shepherd costume?
People like you and sites like this one are doing much to open eyes and hearts. And helping bind the wounds of those hurting lambs. Thank you again for being brave.
I am so very glad to hear that you, through the matchless grace of Jesus, are seeing and experiencing real, abundant life in Him.
And RG, I do pray for you, daily. Please do not stop what you are doing. You are amazing!
"And RG, I do pray for you, daily. Please do not stop what you are doing. You are amazing!"
Thank you, Mamaraye, for your prayers and encouragement. On behalf of our team here, we greatly appreciate the many prayers. We're all volunteers with busy families and lives, and we appreciate any and all prayers offered up for our team as we daily seek God's face and leading.
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Thank you for sharing. I am happy for you that you are moving on. Blessings on you and your precious growing family. So sorry for all the pain you endured.
Thank you for sharing Joy. I wish you nothing but the best. You are not alone.
Joy's testimony and shows very clearly God's admonition through Jeremiah:
17:5 ...Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
What a God!
How about looking up the scriptures on false teachers, false shepherds, false Christians while wondering what to think, say, do. Type out those scriptures for us and what they admonish us to do. Type out again what the NT criteria for a leader, teacher etc is. Just taking one verse and stretching it to extreem isn't looking at the whole counsel of God. It seems to me that anything before that is premature.
What are some NT examples of truly repentant sinners and how we know they were repentant and not just trying to get out of the consequences of being caught
With BG I don't see evidence of him or his family ever being true.
@Joy "Praise God that I am no longer bound by the fear that I have not done enough for Him. My life is not about me and what I do; it’s about a Savior who has already done all for me. "
Joy with your above statement I will rejoice in the love of our Savior with you. He is beyond all we could hope for, isn't He. Knowing how far He has carried you brings tears of joy. Thank you for sharing His great love that overtook your sorrows and pain. He is sufficient.
Where I live today, the 'bitterness'argument is again rearing its ugly head--weaseling up and into the ears of those who might rightly decide rg is truth.
SAME OLD FEAR TACTIC. So lame. Very selfish. So arrogant. Deceitful. Unscriptural. Haughty. Vulgar. Devilish.
This is no different than us taking a pro-life stand. Is it 'bitterness' that makes us stand up against those doing abortions? We protect the life of the unborn by speaking up for them...
We must stand up for the offended, (...or, ahhem,...take up the offense) We must help those in need!
And we will.
I photocopied Joy's story, and highlighted in orange the MANY hidden, deceitful, tyranical orders that are still currently being tried in the IBLP "neighborhoods" I am currently living in.
I'm taking up arms. With the help of social media we can hold 'them' accountable.
We must fight for the life of the 'IBLP abused.'
If this is bitterness, then 'bitterness' must be redefined, my 'Dear IBLP Faithfuls.'
Again, thank you, rg, for reporting these atrocities for the public to read. Time to gather up the troops through social media. May the troops read, become 'bitter'...and ultimately-- by God's Grace--make things...BETTER.
Sooo well written!!! Love it!
I would encourage Recovering Grace to not automatically print every young woman's victimization narrative regarding Bill Gothard. This particular account has many dubious elements to it.
To the author -- There are numerous puzzling attributes to your account that don't add up, and in other cases inadvertently reveal things you're trying to conceal.
"I was first sent to IBLP Headquarters after being sexually assaulted on my twenty-fourth birthday by a male ATI student of adult age. My parents, my family’s pastor (also in ATI), and our ATI Family Coordinator spoke to Bill Gothard and...They all said I must have encouraged this guy’s advances, and that I was partly to blame. No one suggested that I should call the police...It took me years to understand that what had been done to me was a crime...Bill Gothard knew I had...been following the 'rules' by having my parents’ permission to be in the public place when the assault occurred."
This is all very strange (and vague) -- you say the "sexual assault" occurred in a public place, and yet you did not cry out or do anything to alert anyone or bring them to your assistance, or to thwart the assault. You say that whatever happened qualified as a crime, though you didn't realize this until years later. And yet, you have told us NOTHING about what actually happened, so we could ascertain for ourselves whether it was in fact sexual assault. If its all extreme modesty on your part (or feigned modesty) all the more unfortunate for you, because any objective reader will be immediately suspicious of your vagueness.
Another puzzling attribute of the above -- you say you were 24 years old at the time, and are also careful to point out that your alleged assailant was also of "adult age". Do you want to make sure we understand he wasn't a minor? Why would anyone assume that? Its an odd and suspicious detail for you to add, until we read some of your account of your subsequent experiences at IBLP many years later:
"There were only two of us, the boss and I, working in one of the departments to which I was assigned...Being regularly alone with a male is not allowed for a female at Headquarters usually, but Bill told me that there shouldn’t be any trouble because this guy was younger than I was...we planned when we would marry the next year, where we would live, and talked of having children. I wanted to go through the proper channels for a courtship and marriage, but my fiancé did not, saying that, due to our age difference, he needed to break the news to his parents in his own way and time...We eventually started kissing; there was heavy petting and hugging. We came up with excuses for our behavior, knowing it was against the rules"
Was *this* the guy who was a minor?
"I discovered... [that] he had been courting another girl in another state...with his parents’ permission...When I confronted him, he said our relationship was over, and that he would ruin my reputation if I told Bill. He threatened to make it look like I had done wrong things by planting false information on my computer. He even pressured me to sneak onto another coworker’s... computer to see if she was breaking the rules...I found out she was having a romantic relationship with another guy..."
So -- after this guy who was *much* younger than you broke off the relationship, and threatened to put false info on your computer, he *then* somehow coerced you personally to go on a coworker's computer and find incriminating evidence on this other girl's romantic relationship, and you went along with it all. None of this makes any sense.
"Bill [Gothard] made me stand up in front of all of the Headquarters staff, over 200 people at that time, and forced me to confess to things I had not done..."
What were those things exactly that he "forced" you to confess? (Again, the extreme vagueness.) We've all heard of false confessions, elicited by police after many hours in isolation with a suspect under extreme interrogation. But invariably, the suspect will come out in public and claim that his confession was coerced and false. Is that what you're implying Bill did to you? And in your case, you're saying you got up in front of a room of 200 people and made your false confessions! Your whole story is incoherent and incredible.
I suggest you read some of the accounts of other young women in "The Gothard Files, sexual misconduct" above to understand what a credible coherent account looks like, with the exception of Charlotte's, which is not credible. Your account is less credible than her's.
I don't think Recovering Grace does print everyone's story of victimization. They held onto Charlotte's story for 8 months, in order to verify it, and it has been stated in the past that whenever they receive a story of this nature, they cross-reference and fact check every avenue available to them before publishing. I believe I read elsewhere that this woman is known by reputable people who have no reason to doubt her story.
In this case, it could be a matter of lesser writing skills that is causing you confusion. At any rate, I've heard too many stories about other folks who reported abuse to Gothard and the results, or were made to confess things they didn't do, etc.. to automatically doubt this one.
Those who make these decisions can weigh in on this, if they choose to, but I'm pretty certain that RG just does NOT 'automatically' print anything. From what I've seen here (been lurking since late last yr) everything is done carefully and deliberately.
Glad to have you post here, Luke, but several of your questions I found just odd. If you are considering detective school....keep your day job.
I think that the fact you find these things strange and vague shows that you are not very familiar with IBLP.
I concur 100%
Having a rather similar life story and spending months of my life at both HQ and Elms Plantation?
Joy's story rings VERY true.
It is decidedly creepy that anyone should want a victim of sexual assault to describe in detail what happened on a public internet forum so that readers could decide if the victim actually was sexually assaulted.
She's just labeling something that happened "sexual assault" -- it was on her birthday, in a public place -- she can't even say he grabbed her breast or raped her, or whatever it was? You can't just believe everything that everyone asserts. There were a lot of unstable people there as Bill Gothard's site as well, who he was trying to help, and now some of these people are jumping on the bandwagon to justify themselves in retrospect. Get a clue. If it took 8 months for RG to finally print Charlotte's account (the specific details of which were not confirmed by the alleged witnesses), then why are they rushing to press with the equally salacious, varied, and unconfirmed reports of Joy here? This account is not anywhere near in the category of Lizzie, Rachel, et. al. I won't debate this further. You can believe what you want.
Luke, you certainly do fancy yourself to have a lot insight for someone who was not there himself. Did you witness the event? I can't just believe everything that you assert. You could be one of those unstable people who were at Bill Gothard's side.
Considering that the media reports cases of "sexual assault" all the time without going into further detail, the use of the term here is quite reasonable and understandable.
Those former ATI students who choose to believe such accounts have very good foundations for doing so, often based on experience with similar cases.
Could you explain your knowledge of the timeline of this post and it's having been rushed? I haven't seen an explanation of how long the process was of bringing this post to light.
Luke, you assume a lot in your ramblings, but for starters, what is your basis for asserting that RG was 'rushing to press' on this one? Do you have details we do not? RG has a reputation for caution in these sorts of things (like the Charlotte story). You've apparently read many of the other stories. And, let's be honest, the goal of this article and others is not to 'outdo the last one', so don't be dismissive of the story because it's 'not anywhere near the category of Lizzie, Rachel, etc.' It's a testimony, and it's bad. Read it as such.
@Luke: why assume that if someone is younger by x number of yrs, therefore they cannot ,or probably will not be predatory ?? what have you been watching on cable ??
I knew Joy personally when she arrived at Eagle Springs. She was broken down, beaten down, and hurt by all that had happened. But she was NOT mentally or emotionally unstable. Not in any sense of the word.
Luke, a lot of people will recognize the identity of the younger boss described here, and that he was hardly a minor at the time of this narrative. The forty-person firing was a big event, and is recognizable to those who were around for it. The young man's actions and deceptions during the time he was running the company/department, once revealed, were exposed to many and have lived on in infamy, just as many others became aware of the behavior of the director who was having the affair with his secretary. These are well known figures in HQ history, and their professional misconduct has been long since established. It was gracious of Joy to not share their names in her story.
Your speculation about the boss being minor is already addressed above. Joy states that she and her boss were both adults, but that he was younger than she was. She clarified that the sexual assailant was of adult age because he was also an ATI student, and those unfamiliar with ATI might naturally assume that as such he was high school age or younger, not realizing that within ATI single people are usually classified as students until they marry or leave the system.
If you are a friend or relative of the sexual assailant, I'm sure he told you a different story about the assault.
I'm a friend or relative of no one in this inner sanctum of the Bill Gothard empire. I attended many times his conferences, as millions of people have.
As far as my own personal experiences in a cult-like setting (fwiw), I was a member of a private home church with a charismatic, highly intelligent leader. This group was a personality cult I can say in retrospect. During my time there, that pastor also was very vigilant of prohibiting any sort of sexual conduct of any benign type whatsoever between any of the single guys and the very attractive single girls of the small church. He also was very attentive and sensitive to the needs of the female parishoners, affectionate in a fatherly manner, etc, evidently with the goal of dissuading them from entering into sexual immorality with any of us single guys (or others outside the church, I don't know). And frankly I absolutely believe to this day that he was sincere in this motivation of his to "protect" the single ladies.
And yet, this pastor ended up sleeping with every single woman in the church. After the women started talking to each other, and found out he'd slept with all of them (married and single), they finally confessed to the men of the Church (this was long after I left, btw -- had some suspicions while I was there though). They were able to bring legal charges against him eventually, but he was found not guilty.
I would point out that NO ONE has even accused Bill Gothard of having actual sexual relations with any of these girls of his, or even actual sexual battery (with the exception of Charlotte which has not been corroborated), and that is significant to me. I do not believe he has done so.
Incidentally this personality cult pastor at this church I went to was *very* unfavorable towards Bill Gothard, said many unfavorable things about him. The world's complicated, go figure.
So, having experienced such an extraordinary and unexpected revelation of that pastor's character, why are you reacting so strongly against Joy's story? Joy doesn't speak here of having "actual sexual relations" with Bill Gothard, just of experiencing the same sort of unwanted handsiness from him that you acknowledge other young women in IBLP experienced. She was indisputably sexually assaulted by an adult age ATI student, an act not denied by the other ATI people involved, they simply speculated that she must have in same way invited it or deserved it. She is not the only ATI student to have experienced this sort of victim blaming after sexual abuse or assault, and even ATI's own materials promote this line of thinking. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/04/how-counseling-sexual-abuse-blames-and-shames-survivors/
I am still waiting for any supporter of Gothard to have a coherent, intelligent, non dismissive defense.
I'm in full agreement with Ryan.
@Ryan: is there room on the waiting bench for two ?? well said
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ogoh0xM6sw
I guess we can all wait together.
I am shocked and saddened that this pastor, after being guilty of sexual immorality was not convicted. I have to wonder if there was some sort of payout to keep it quiet. This is disturbing.
(1) "During my time there, that pastor also was very vigilant of prohibiting any sort of sexual conduct of any benign type whatsoever between any of the single guys and the very attractive single girls of the small church. He also was very attentive and sensitive to the needs of the female parishoners, affectionate in a fatherly manner, etc, evidently with the goal of dissuading them from entering into sexual immorality with any of us single guys (or others outside the church, I don't know)."
(2)"And yet, this pastor ended up sleeping with every single woman in the church...(married and single),"
Do you not see the connection between points (1) and (2)?
(3)"And frankly I absolutely believe to this day that he was sincere in this motivation of his to "protect" the single ladies."
Do you not see the disconnect of point 3?
"[Beth:] Your speculation about the boss being minor is already addressed above. Joy states that she and her boss were both adults, but that he was younger than she was."
OK I found that one sentence where she says he was "adult".
She assiduously avoids giving his exact age though, only saying vaguely that he was "younger" than she was. The fact remains, by her own admission, he was so much younger, that Gothard himself considered it inconceivable that the two would ever get involved with each other. Based on that, I'm going to surmise he was still a teenager (And she states she was 26). If you or anyone in this thread has specific knowledge to the contrary, you can state it now.
And also, on the original "sexual assault" she states specifically she was 24, but once again, only says vaguely that her alleged assaulter was a legal "adult". I'm going to guess that he was younger than her too. And again, as so many of you imply to be insiders on these matters, just go ahead and state explicitly what your knowledge is here as well.
The other cases of immorality she mentions in the narrative (e.g. the affair of her coworker she discovered after her much younger boss dumped her, but then still somehow convinced her into getting on this girl's computer to spy on her, and also that other affair of another boss she mentioned) seemed to me to be invoked by her to imply, "See, everyone was doing it, not just me." IOW, totally self-serving.
She also says she lied in front of 200 people -- who's to say she's not lying now, or altering the timeline of events in small or large ways to serve her own aggrandizement.
All of this is part of my own gut reaction on careful reflection, to her story. All of us have to make our own personal assessments of truthfulness. Its quite obvious that not a single one of you find my reasons compelling. So be it -- I'm not a crusader. Believe anything and everything anyone says, with no discernment or discrimination whatsoever, I want lose sleep over it. Good day.
As someone who knows Joy personally, I want to assure you that your creative guesses are dead wrong, Luke. Joy is one of the sweetest, kindest, gentlest souls I was privileged to meet in ATI, and she is nothing IRL like you are trying to paint her. Which leads me to wonder, like Beth mentioned earlier, why you would be trying to slander a completely random stranger's reputation... unless you have an ulterior motive against Joy personally. You're way out of line.
Luke- You asserted RG rushed this to print. If you have some inside knowledge of that feel free to let us in on it. You have, your posture of objectivity notwithstanding, made several speculations while dismissing Joy's and Charlotte's story as lacking credibility, and then when folks here were unwilling to follow your gut, you conclude that folks here "believe anything and everything anyone says, with no discernment or discrimination whatsoever".
You've swung hard at Joy, RG, and others here after you surmised and gutted your way to some accusations, and I for one don't find your gut nor your manner compelling.
Why are you so obsessed with ages?
Beverly, you are slandering me. I indicated I found her story suspect at a number of points and stated clearly my reasons for thinking as I did. That does not qualify as slander. You are using your words in a haphazard, and reckless and insightful fashion. That to me qualifies as slander. Am I at fault for not finding this particular report completely credible? And as you're one of the people claiming to know Joy and thus presumably familiar with her situation, please answer the questions I posed repeatedly -- What exactly happened to her on her birthday, when she says she was "sexually assaulted" in a public place? How old exactly was her alleged assaulter? How old exactly was her boss who she had a romantic relationship with? How exactly could she be convinced by this guy, after he dumped her, to go spy on her friend and coworker's computer and find this friend of hers was also in an illicit romantic relationship? (Do you not even understand what I'm asking there?) And finally, how is it that she could be forced by Bill Gothard to tell lies about herself in front of 200 people? Who could do that? What lies exactly did Bill Gothard force her to say before that large group?
Shane, in the case of Charlotte's story, RG is careful to state with it that they waited eight months before printing it, (considering the explosive, unique, and uncorroborated nature of the charges) until they could find at least some partial corroboration. There is no such explanation accompanying Joy's story. It just appeared today without comment. I was just curious as to why. There are distinct similarities between Charlotte's and Joy's accounts, as to their lack of polish, meandering nature, explosive charges, etc and just quite evident over all lack of credibility in comparison to other people's accounts. That's just my perspective.
I never intended to enter into a protracted and labored and repetitive defense in this thread of my own best judgment on the matter, originally just stating my considered opinion -- that I honestly did not find here story completely credible.
Beverly: sp
insightful = inciteful
"[Deanna:]Why are you so obsessed with ages?"
If her alleged sexual assaulter as well as her "boss" who she had a romantic relationship with were both much younger than her, it changes the picture of who the real predator/aggressor/manipulator was in the scenarios she's describing. She assiduously avoids giving their ages for some reason, but repeatedly gives her age. Its suspicious.
Luke- you're certainly entitled to your gut and surmising. We all operate on such to some degree. I don't even ask you to defend them. But you continue to demand answers in a manner that comes off as something you think you're entitled to. You're not. In your original post you not only ask questions about the gaps you see in her story, but make insinuation as to the meaning of those gaps. Then you made assertions about things to which you have no knowledge.
You've painted with some very broad strokes with your surmising and assumed that folks here show no discernment whatsoever. Your tact is not conducive to any kind of dialogue. This is not a courtroom. All of us are working through these stories with the best information we can. I for one find Beverly's statement of personal knowledge of Joy compelling, because I've watched her post on here for months. I also find these stories compelling, because I know someone whose story has not been publicized here or anywhere who experienced Gothard's unwanted improper disqualifying attention. Many of these people here have been up to their necks in Gothardism, know the whistleblowers personally, have experienced these things themselves. Many have come to believe these stories through pain and sorrow at what it means for their lives, trust, families, friendships, etc.
So, your assessment that you're the only one with a discerning eye regarding Joy's story is hubris. This is why you found yourself in this discussion. Not because you have your doubts. No one who has been around RG for any time is surprised that there are doubters. Many have family who are doubters. Many are struggling with what to believe. Your post smacks of someone on his high horse, which is not conducive to furthering a conversation (which may not have been your desire, I don't know).
Luke, you are unaware of the definition of slander. Beverly (my wife), by saying she knows the author and that you're misrepresenting her, is not slandering you, but shedding light— so that you would understand how baseless YOUR accusations are. You are speculating that Joy was sexually harassing or molesting a minor. The only thing you have to go on is, well, nothing. THAT is slander. And to ask for details of EXACTLY what happened in her molestation, EXACTLY what her forced confession consisted of, etc. is frankly odd. A writer is not required to bare all in order to be a 'credible witness.'
And as an aside, I definitely agree that Beverly's words are insightful!
Her boss was not necessarily MUCH younger. He could have been one day younger. Bill Gothard taught that Eve was made after Adam so it was wrong to have a relationship where the woman was older. He asked us to make a commitment not to marry a younger man. This is the reasoning that Bill did not think there could be a relationship between Joy and her boss.
@Luke: you wrote
And finally, how is it that she could be forced by Bill Gothard to tell lies about herself in front of 200 people? Who could do that?
and the answer is....under the right circumstances and under enough pressure: ANY of us. Luke, if you've been blessed enough to have never been under this kind of pressure, then I'm glad for you, but that was not Joy's experience (shared by thousands, I'm thinking)
"their lack of polish, meandering nature, explosive charges, etc and just quite evident over all lack of credibility"
Pot. Kettle. Troll.
@P.L.: hmmmm....maybe there needs to be a MIB 'troll' checkk @ the border, or a troll registry/passport
Luke,
Not have been in a situation like this myself, this is my best understanding of it....I think something happens to people when they are victims that make them do strange things...being coerced into confessing in front of people because you've been made to feel like worthless dirt. There seems to be an inexplicable hold on people who are victims.
In saying that the original assault happened in a public place could mean that it was a in a train station bathroom, or back hallway or something of the like - it doesn't have to mean that it was in front of people.
I do think that this is a true account as i know who some people in this story are, but I will agree with you that charlottes story seems different than the other accounts...why would more happen with her, than with any of the others?
Any of the people that I know personally who went through mr g's special attentions, never had any thing as dramatic as Charlotte to say. That being said, I'm not going to stand up in his corner and defend him and say for sure it's not true.
To everyone else,
Lets just all step back and take a breath here. I have no idea who luke is, but To ask a question about something that doesnt make sense doesn't mean that the person asking is siding with someone terrible or against the victim. It's perfectly right to feel terrible for joy and sick about what she went through. but its more helpful to answer with facts and not assume that the person asking for clarification is siding with some evil forces. :-). For what it's worth....if anything.... :-)
There are other accounts of people being forced to confess things they didn't do, for what it's worth.
You seem to be confused. The author is not putting forth her life story to be checked for ‘credibility.’ She is sharing her experience to benefit other abuse survivors. (To the author: if I have mistaken your purpose, I apologize and please do correct me)
The details of her sexual assault are none of our business. We are not her judges.
The details of her relationships are none of our business. We are not her judges.
The details of her confessions are none of our business. We are not her judges.
Any other details that she chooses not to share with us are none of our business. We are not her judges.
Anyone with a basic understanding of abuse and what it does to survivors will find her story credible. You may not have that understanding, and that’s fine. Ignorance is bliss after all.
But please don't attack people. Disagree, question, argue, even call her unbelievable if you must. But blaming her for her assault because she did not specify whether or not she 'cried out' and speculating that she is a statutory rapist is way over the line.
I apologize, I misspoke. He was speculating that she was sexually harassing a minor, or possibly molesting a child.
I stand by my statement that it was over the line.
You said everything I was going to say, but better. Joy is not required to share intimate details of her assault with you, Luke. And the fact that you seem to want them so badly makes me question your motives.
Luke, dear,
Regarding the first section of your answer to Joy...I am going to share something about myself, something I have shared with very few people, and never before online, to make a point...One of my daughters was raped by a college professor when she was 19 years old. In the ensuing years of counseling, recovery, pain, rage, forgiveness and all that comes with that, we had to learn to say the word "rape", to name it for what it was. It took me a long time to say the word "rape" in connection with my precious daughter, NOT because I did not believe she had been raped, but because it was, and is, so excruciatingly painful to say.
My point to you is that, unless you have been sexually assaulted or raped yourself, or held a child suffering through the wounds of that experience, you probably don't know what you are talking about, at least not at gut level. I hope you have never experienced this; I hope you never do.
The words Joy chooses to tell her story are her words. To expect her to recount in full detail what happened to her, so we, her faceless internet public, can "ascertain for ourselves whether it was in fact sexual assault" merely shows that you have no idea how hard it is to do what Joy and all the other women who have shared their stories here have done...tell their stories in a way that speaks truth without seeking revenge.
In my opinion, she, and they, did it just right.
Wow! Mamaraye-How aweful! Thanks for stepping in here and giving this perspective. I had to walk away from responding because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. I am amazed at how dismissive gothards defenders at times can be. I like to think I'd check myself if something like RGs evidence was mounted against someone in ministry that I followed.
Something interesting I learned years ago is that even if the perpetrator seems to look like the underdog, many, many people take up his offense. WE do not like to let the underdog be beaten down. A common example is in divorce. A spouse may be guilty of adultery, and if the other spouse expresses her/his anger while his/her children are present, often they rally around the one who committed adultery!!
As someone who has never been close to a sexual abuse case I find it interesting how similar all the victims stories are. They must feel trapped, alone and as there is no one to talk to. How confusing to have a leader and people in "authority" over you take advantage of you this way. It is saddening that these girls had to carry this burden for this long. Once they worked up the courage to talk there was usually no one there to believe them. It would be painful to carry these hurtful experiences for a day let alone years. For my gender I say, I'm sorry, truly sorry.
Mamaraye, I can't imagine you heartache over what happened to your daughter. A very dear friend of mine went through a horribly violent situation. I can still hear her sobs when I think of that time. I'll never forget the fear instilled in her, and how she doubted her own judgement. For a time that once confident young woman became a shadow of who she once was. She was innocent, yet such violence rocked her foundation. It was painful enough holding a friend. I can't imagine holding a daughter through that kind of heartache. Praise God you were there to love her through it. Praise God she landed in the arms of love, comfort, and healing. God bless you for loving those here enough to share something so personal in an attempt to help develop greater understanding.
Thank you all for the kind comments. It says something about this site and most of the commenters that I was willing to share that story. But I couldn't stand by in silence any longer.
My daughter was not (thank God!) involved in anything Gothard, but in many ways her story could have been written using the exact same words of most of the women who have shared on this site. From my first visit to RG and first reading of the accounts, I could not stop thinking how much their accounts, even in some of the details, mirrored my daughter's.
Satan in NOT creative. This has been stated many times on this site: these things follow a pattern. We are fools if we don't admit it.
And by the way, since I believe you truly care about this, my beautiful, amazing daughter is doing so well. While the experience can never be as if it never happened, she in her own words has said how grateful she is for how it has helped her see the God of love and hope and healing and grace. She has been and is a huge inspiration and example to me!
Victimization narrative. Dubious elements. Puzzling attributes. Conceal. Incoherent. Not credible. ...and more.
Your bias in this is quite clear. You distort, misquote, and accuse. It would seem that you need to repent of many of the same sins that Gothard does.
Do you have any direct knowledge of the situation? If you do, then share it and undergo the same scrutiny you apply so freely. Otherwise, I would suggest that you keep your thoughts to yourself.
If RG allows your post to remain, they are more generous than I.
Incoherent and condescending as they are, it is a tribute to RG that they let Luke's comments stand. This is the messiness of being church. I know there is hurt in being misunderstood and made into a caricature, but all that is better than the usual ultra-sanitized blogs. You can get that anywhere, all the time.
Good job....GREAT job , with that , RG
Good point. It does show rather well the callousness and evil that result when people will not submit to God's Word. Luke shows a hatred for those harmed through his refusal to acknowledge Biblical truth on a number of issues central to this situation.
Beyond the harm Gothard has caused directly, he should be ashamed of the additional harm being caused by those seeking to defend him. The sooner he publicly repents, the sooner this will cease.
May God forgive us for allowing this to continue.
Luke,
It appears that you are an outsider to this community, as I am. Members of the Recovering Grace community, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this site is primarily a place where those who have been hurt by the Gothard organizations can come for support. As a guest here, I have come to quietly listen and learn. Yet I couldn't keep quiet after reading your comments. The author of this account is still recovering from deep wounds, even as she nears 40. Given her upbringing, I think she has had quite enough of people telling her how to think and live. She has a right to tell her story in her own way and to receive validation of her own experiences. Those privileged to read her story should listen with our hearts and learn from what she has to say.
"My life is not about me and what I do; it’s about a Savior who has already done all for me."
Amen. It is truly all about Him. May you continue and increase in that certainty. Thank you for coming forward to tell your story.
Well, said, Lyssa. Thank you.
Joy, my prayers are with you and I hope none of the mean spirited comments toward you are getting you down. Your story is important and I understand your loss of years of youth, having experienced the same...may the Lord restore unto you the years the locust have destroyed. I have no doubt that your story will help others who have also experienced these dark waters. God bless you!
Yet another testimony is now added -- a testimony of blaming the already traumatized victim! No wonder there was ensuing post traumatic stress! Thank you for the courage to share your story.
I encourage people hear to read the latest MCO article, and to check out Tony Guhr's link contained in the article. Don Veinot's point was Bill needs to be reminded of some issues when he denied sexual intent in this most recent plausible deniability apology. Don provided Gary Smalley's own words about finding Gothard in the northwoods cabin with the young woman that night. That would be rather impossible to deny sexual intent, there: http://www.midwestoutreach.org/2014/04/24/bill-gothard-truly-repentant/
Dear Joy,
Thank you for sharing your story, for bringing hidden things to light, and for reaching out to others through your story to help them in their healing process. I am praying for you that God releases you from your nightmares and helps you to live in His freedom while you are awake and while you sleep. Bless you!
This is such a painful story to read! "The day I left Oak Brook, Bill made me stand up in front of all of the Headquarters staff, over 200 people at that time, and forced me to confess to things I had not done."
I don't think someone who was not in a situation with so much pressure and so much idolizing of the leader can understand how significant and horrible an experience like that would be for a young person. This thing of forced confessions was a tactic that was used to help maintain control and it was very wrong and hurtful.
All the years she was robbed of, in reality a prisoner that was taken advantage of and put down. A brainwashing cult it was and the opposite of our Savior who sets free the prisoners.
I see that great care is being taken on this site to insure the credibility of the site and to protect those to bravely tell their stories.
Thank you, Joy, for giving us a glimpse of your life; I am grieving over the horrendous pain and loss you have experienced. Yet I rejoice with you in all we have in God through Christ alone!
http://www.hymnary.org/hymn/WoG1879/page/91
To Luke B.:
I think you probably reacted to Joy's story, and then didn't know how to backtrack gracefully. Maybe her story triggered your memories of that horrible church you had been involved in, or something weird like that. I'm trying to understand your reaction.
Not to be mean, but if I were to doubt a story it would be yours. First you said that the creepy pastor was protecting the ladies, and then you said he slept with all of them. All of them? Not one refused him? Hard to believe.
Then you said they took him to court and lost. Again, hard to believe.
See how it works? The truth is, I have no reason to doubt your story, but if I wanted to, I could find a number of inconsistencies in what you said.
Now, you probably didn't mean to come across as being unkind and uncaring. I know that in our day, the Internet is full of stories that may or may not be true. I take most things I read on the Internet with a grain of salt. Your concerns are legitimate, but I haven't noticed that this website is guilty of making up stories. The testimonies here ring true and are consistent with the kinds of things that have been reported over a period of some 40 years.
Besides, you have BG's own statement. He admits to doing something. These brave ladies reveal a bit of what that something was.
So, I am sorry for what was done to you when you were young. The pastor's behavior was terribly wrong.
Mrswebfoot, my gut tells me Lukes story has a few holes in it.
Indeed, Ryan.
In my extensive experience, the only people who pull the 'slander' card right off the bat as soon as someone questions them, are those who have something to hide, or are guilty of the very thing they accuse others of.
I didn't find Joy's story lacking credibility, as Luke says, but the timeline was confusing, which detracted from the account.
I agree Mike that the timeline was a little tough to follow. It read a little more like an outline version. I think her story would've needed many more pages to fully develop.
Over the last few months I have seen several people skeptical of the sexual allegations towards Bill. It has mostly been men to my memory. Does anyone recall women who have voiced disbelief? Are there any women out there who don't believe the allegations? I'm just curious.
That's a great point, Ryan...I think that if you are a woman with any former connection or exposure to the organization at all, it would be nearly impossible to not at least have had suspicions of things being a little off (at the very least!). And if you had your eyes open at all, you definitely saw boundaries crossed out the yang and witnessed this appearance-based triage system.
For the record, every single weird, arbitrary thing Joy (and the other girls in other posts) mentioned is something I've seen or heard within the organization (and I wasn't super deep in it!). I'm not venturing to speak for Joy, but I'd bet that the reason she keeps some details vague is that they would just be too insane or repetitive for you to believe. I'm sure she (and any other girl in the org) could go on for days with accounts of suggested vows, illogical double standards and the like. She was probably just trying to keep the story lean.
If you're a woman who was in it, you saw/heard this mess. Even if you weren't, as a woman you know what it feels like to have authority wielded against you in a sexualized way - whether that be garden-variety workplace harassment or something much, much worse.
For every man who doubts, I know that it means so so much for these women to have the belief and prayers of the other men who read these accounts. The light's winning.
I did write out my story first in a much longer and more detailed account, and felt it had become a book.
To clarify some confusion, the outline of events is as it is written. I continued to work for my ex-fiance for a short time after the relationship was over because I was sorting out my thoughts and a grief. I did not know what to do! I was unable to move back home since my parent's new home did not have room for me due to restrictive fire codes in their apartment. I absolutely had no place to go. My entire life was either IBLP or home - there was no one else to help me. The only person I was able to turn to was Bill Gothard. He held the complete power to my life at that time. I had to do what he asked since I had no where else to go. I believed that I had to do what Bill told me to do, because otherwise God would curse me.
It was about the day before calling Bill in the Northwoods that I snooped on my coworker's computer. Ironically, she, her boyfriend (and her future husband), and myself were all in a line outside of Bill's office at the same time, waiting to hear from Bill what our fate would be.
I believe you Joy!
I believe you also. Thank you for sharing. My point which I didn't flush out is merely for the sake of length and keeping a readers attention is why story was the length it was. I'm sure you could write a book on your story outlined above.
The timeline was not confusing to me. 1
Joy's story was highly credible in my eyes.
I very recently was on the other side the fence--a Gothardite. I would have believed what the gothardite groupees are still saying.
Similar to what Luke is saying.
But God brought the Truth to my eyes as I read the girls' stories. Then I decided I need a better understanding, so I read and read and read. Not just rg.
When I put together all the evidence that I read with my own gothardite experience it became abundantly clear that I had been duped. For almost 40 years. During those many years I arrogantly--in a most humble way, of course--thought I was sacrificing to live a modest female lifestyle for Christ--and because my (guru, Mr. Gothard) encouraged me to.
As I found myself getting closer and closer to 'The Top' and started to see the same confusion (at a different place and time-but still among 'Them') I have definitely seen the corrupt mindset. Not at all self sacrificing love for brothers and sisters in Christ, nor for the Lost.
It is all a storefront. Money. Lifesyle supported by the unknowing Gothardites. If they only knew.
As someone said recently, there is coming a day when our Lord will separate the wheat from the tares. We may not know who is honest and who is not, but He does. And on that day those dishonest tares will...burn.
What I am concerned about today is twofold:
1. The care of the abused.
2. Persuading the gullible 'gothardites' (like I was) come to their senses and do the RIGHT thing--comfort the oppressed.
Bringing justice will do that.
Do justly. Love mercy. Walk humbly with our God.
What an awesome comment. Thanks so much for sharing this part of your story!
I'd be really curious to know what some of the things were that began to open your eyes. Were there some big things that suddenly hit or was it more a collection of smaller things that added up...
"It is all a storefront." Great line. I think that's the mental shift that takes place when people go from "in" to "out", the whole perspective changes and they realize that there was no warehouse to back up the promises made, it's just a storefront, only a storefront. When the rubber hits the road, "there is no there there."
It was before I even dared read rg, as a good gothardite, that I was feeling the same power plays on me that were used and shared about on rg. They were nonsexual power plays (being much advanced in age!) But made to feel the same fear and helplessness. If I did not comply to their wants and desires. I said to myself, "power hungry..." and "whited seplecher..." Felt bad for thinking that way.
Noticed if they didn't like someone, they were forgotten. If someone was liked, (i.e., family, brown-noser) they were advanced. This normally wouldn't have bothered me, but when I could see it obviously happening to others around me, I was concerned.
Being put in my place one time, I remained absolutely silent for over a year. Just watching. Nothing sexual--that I could see, anyway; but power plays everywhere. Yuck. Could do nothing, because I was just a female.
Then one day I "accidentally/providentially" saw a posting on facebook. The posting (I found out later) was "accidental" and removed immediately.
But I started reading the testimonies of the girls and was devastated. The power plays I read about were very similar. The iblp habit flows through the ranks. I believe bg allows it, to cover himself.
After a couple days of reading the girls'stories, I got sick to my stomach and through up--in the middle of the night. My version of night terrors...
With much research added--beyond rg , I find myself totally disgusted, hurt, angry and grieving.
All I read only points to the truth revealed by rg. Waiting on the Lord for what to do...
Betty, what a beautiful thing to read. May we all live by those words.
Betty, I am glad that God showed you the truth. It is such a freeing feeling, isn't it? Thank you for sharing your story with us.
Not feeling really free yet. I guess the greiving takes time. And it hurts. I FEEL greatly for those who have shared. Grateful that God is working in His time, in His way. And amazed at the patience He has given all of you on rg.
Betty, thanks for sharing. As you walk this journey of processing and grief, don't give up. It does take time and has many layers. Many have walked it before... joy comes in the morning. God is patient, and pursues us and loves to have a relationship with us. Blessings, a former ATI daughter whose mom still grieves
Joy, thank you for sharing your story. Beautifully written.
Not sure how long it will take, but I can pretty much tell you that the nightmares will end for the most part. I was indirectly mistreated by the IBLP teachings. I won't go into detail here because some will not believe me, just as some have not believed you.
It took a long time, but now I hardly ever wake up screaming anymore, if that is any encouragement to you.
Love to you, and again, thank you for sharing.
"It took a long time, but now I hardly ever wake up screaming anymore, if that is any encouragement to you."
(((hugs)))
Waking up screaming.. I can relate to that as well. Let me share what I discovered that helped me immensely!
I kept having those awful nightmares (ya'll know the kind I'm talking about), that were a result from my PTSD from my upbringing. I wouldn't be able to wake up on my own, all I could do was moan, whimper, and try to get louder so my husband would wake me. Sometimes I even found myself crying out to Jesus trying to wake myself. My husband would have to shake me awake, and then pray for me.
Well one night, I guess he'd had enough of seeing me suffer like this, and before I woke up the next morning, he did some research on the internet. He discovered that I was having 'night terrors'. (I had formerly feared that they were demonic attacks.) I read lots and lots of information about them, other people's testimonies, and realized after awhile that that was what was happening to me.
It 'clicked'. Now I knew what the problem was. It wasn't demonic possession or attack. It was ALL psychological. Guess what happened? Those dreams stopped. It's as if knowledge really was power. Now my mind could stop tricking itself. What freedom, what relief!
I will note that I've only had one such dream since then, and it was pretty bad. I asked some of the ladies in my Bible study what they thought, and in talking it out, realized I'd gone to bed extremely upset at my main abuser. They said I needed to never ever go to bed upset, obviously that what would trigger these dreams. (They did mention meditating on Scripture, but it didn't trigger me. :) I've made a conscious effort to go to bed in a pleasant mood, or at least not an unpleasant one.
I hope that helps!!
Thank you, Beverly! Hugs to you, too.
Megan, what a great comment. Yes, I will look into the subject of night terrors. Like I said I'm not bothered as much now, but what you say makes sense to me.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Love to all of you.
This website is a wonderful blessing to many of us. Thank you, RG team!
That is wonderfully helpful Megan. Thanks for sharing. I also had night terrors and bad dreams for many years. Like Beverly, they finally subsided.
And yes I worked for the institute some too.
In my quest to find what I believe I routinely put myself on the other side of the argument to see how my point holds up and to even create arguments from the other side. I am having a hard time coming up with a defense for Bill.
1. Can't say it's impossible for these things to have happened.
Bill is a man and as much as he would like us to think he has never had an "impure" thought, it's impossible. (I may have actually believed that back in the day)
2. Never had an opportunity for these actions to occur.
It's been confirmed by many many girls that he would pick them up in his car, be in his office late at night, private counseling sessions etc. We are creatures of habit. Plenty of opportunities and it seems it was his M.O. Look at your own relational interactions. It's hard to break out of patterns.
3. He is misunderstood, actions were fatherly.
Most of us with daughters know his actions weren't fatherly. (Apparently save Alfred). If I saw him playing with my daughters feet, sitting hip to hip or private excursions I would be like. what the....!!!! I just don't see that excuse in the least.
4. It was an accident.
Too many accounts from different women and girls for that to be possible.
5. It was somebody else.
Hard to miss the 5'6 man with a gleam in his eye.
6. It was consentual.
The culture bred girls that were naive to a relationship with the opposite sex. I agree the girls would have normal human emotions and feelings but not the education or experience of how to handle those emotions. That's what led to their confusion. I can see a minor level of consent because attention feels good. I also think it very very quickly crosses a line with a leader of Bill's stature to where they were uncomfortable and knew where he was intending to go was not right.
7. We were dating.
Did the girls father know that? That's easy to back up and I don't think we have any proof or accounts.
8. I was counseling them.
We all know being alone is not appropriate.
9. They needed a ride.
We all know he had his own van with a great system that Bill could control from his seat. I also think the old car he bragged about was good for his "game". Girls dig that stuff. I think the car was actually a very key component to his wooing plan. To think he stood in front of tens of thousands of people and bragged about his "old" car and it's real purpose wasn't for transportation but using it as a tool to swoon young girls is sick. There was also a whole transportation department.
10. He was well intentioned and devoted his life to serving God. He deserves a pass.
His position actually gave him more responsibility and less room for error.
I can't come up with a defense. Oh and I have ten points so it must be from God.
Ryan- pont 6 is what makes his actions SO VERY wrong. It's why there is shared wisdom and laws to protect the vulnerable. Reading it reminds me of how pissed I get at the demising of his actions as harmless naiveté. Folly yes. Naiveté?- give me a break!
I honestly tried to form a defense since I haven't heard a good one yet (discrediting the women doesn't work). The more I looked at it the more I saw a premeditated predator.
Maybe if you were a committed follower of Jesus you could come up with a better defense.
Actually Shane a "non follower of Jesus" should be more likely to come up with a defense of BG's non defensible behavior with minor girls and young women.
And dissing Ryan, like you just did and Alfred has done, is certainly not helping to demonstrate the love of Christ to someone who is clearly looking for something good in the Christian community. I respect Ryan's honesty as he searches for truth after seeing a false gospel lived and inflicted upon BG's flock. On the other extreme, I respect Alfred's willingness to state what he and many others still believe about BG, and I'm hopeful the true light of Christ will enable him to see clearly at some point, hopefully soon.
Ryan, I pray that in your search you will read God's Word as written. And I pray that the Holy Spirit will enable you to see and truly understand the depth of the love of Jesus Christ, who lived a life of perfect obedience so He could then willingly lay down His life to pay for our sin. Faith alone in Christ alone will give you the unmerited grace that will bring you peace and eternal life...
@Anonymous- thanks for defending Ryan, but I was not dissing him at all but sarcastically making a point stemming from another post. I assure you Ryan got the joke and was not offended.
My apologies Shane. Thanks for the clarification.
Anonymous from somewhere. Thank you so very very much for coming to my defense and your kind words. I have engaged with Shane long enough on this site to know that he is a pastor and open minded enough to accept me where I am. I laughed out loud at his comments because I knew exactly where he was coming from. Like I have said many times there are so many quality people interacting on RG. Healthy interaction. Thank you again.
Anonymous- No worries!
Thanks for sharing your well thought out reasoning based in logic Ryan. Totally agree.
While it is if the truth is being exposed here, I want to point out a couple of things that I found disturbing about this testimony:
1) This woman says she felt like she was living for everyone else's goals but her own: Yes, this is the ONLY way to live the Christian life. It is the example that Jesus told us. He gave up all that he wanted to save others. We as Christians are to give up all our own hopes, dreams, and goals, for the sake of Christ and for others. Death to self is what Christianity is.
[redacted]
Please note, we posted the first part of your comment but the rest of it was redacted due to being inflammatory and off-topic.
Matthias, while I do not disagree at all with the last two sentences of what was posted from you, it is also true that God said to both Adam and Eve, that they were to have dominion over the earth. See Genesis 1:26-28.
Genesis teaches God has created men and women to have some domain they are "in charge of," so to speak, as it relates to life on this planet. Some area of responsibility that requires development of thought, planning, and broadens in scope with maturity, hopefully. Of course, Jesus Christ and the gospel should be of first priority for the believer, in this age, but that fact does NOT negate that God created male and female, and charged them both with the privilege and responsibility to have a proper charge in the affairs of this life - over God's creation.
Bill Gothard stymies this inborn facet of us being made in God's image with unbiblical teaching, pitting the mind against the spirit, for one, causing people to not even be able to think without anxiety at times. Secondly, the unbiblical teaching on authority. Gothard's teaching on authority is more like what Jesus warned *against* in Mark 10:42ff.
Joy has every right, as a woman made in God's image, to prayerfully understand whatever domain it is God has granted her, and to manage it well for His glory. IOW - she can think of goals she should be shooting for, for God's glory.
Beware, be very very wary, of creating false dichotomies. In my opinion, the best way to do this, is to know the full counsel of Scripture, and to understand passages in their original contexts.
Flesh out your comment, then, Matthias, and tell us from the testimony how the life that Bill had set out for the author was an incarnation of 'the christian life'. Are you saying that Bill's goals and direction are pretty much GOD's , or is there some other specific point you are trying to make ? Thanks.
From a non-Christian viewpoint, I would think that your god would want you to choose freely a life of sacrifice for him; not be forced kicking and screaming (even inside your head).
This Christian agrees with you, nmgirl.
There is also a difference between truly living for God and living to please others.
You hit the nail on the head, nmgirl. As Christians, we get this wrong all the time, often from being raised to "give up our lives for Christ" before we even have formed as a person yet. You must have something before you voluntarily give it up of your own free will. We have the power of decision. Christ absolutely requires free will; he is a gentleman in every sense of the word, and it took a long time for me to realize it. "kicking and screaming inside your head" is what I did for a long time.
I believe the Scriptures fully support that, nmgirl. I think alot of people tend to forget that.
Matthias, I'm not sure what your concern is. BG's goals for Joy were ungodly, so she should reject them. She is finally free to do so. We should all reject Gothard's goals for us.
It is true that we are to die to self, but look what happens when we die to self and live for the sake of Christ. Here are Jesus' own words.
Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
When we lose our old life, we find our new life. It is our life to be lived freely for Jesus.
If you read Joy's last paragraph, I think you will see that she did find her life and is now learning to live it the way that Jesus wants her to. He has given her a kind husband who is encouraging her to learn to think and act for herself as the person God meant her to be.
Do you think that Jesus erases who you are when you believe in Him? That sounds more like Buddhism than the Gospel. Christ restores you to who you were created to be in the first place. Then we really have something of beauty and worth to offer Him and others. In Him is life, not death and destruction.
We are His workmanship, not His wasteland.
" Christ restores you to who you were created to be in the first place." Thanks for this. It gives me great hope.
Hi Matthias. I'd love to know what the rest of your thoughts were, please do let us know your perspective. :)
Well obviously we can only respond to what was posted, so I'd like to give some feedback.
I think there may be a misunderstanding as to what she meant by her statement. I don't know that it was necessarily a selfish thought on her part. In IBLP/ATI, if you are under anyone else's authority, be it parents, pastor, boss, higher uppers in the actual ministry etc, you somehow become the equivalent of a nameless/faceless.. slave. (For lack of a better word, I am not trying to be dramatic.)
As a 'slave', YOU as an individual don't exist except to serve the often dubiously 'godly' vision of others. Your likes, dislikes, personal taste in anything, dreams, plans for the future (all of which are God-given at a certain level) do not matter, and do not exist. Your abilities, gifts, and talents (which are definitely from God) are often ignored and shoved aside unless you have a very specific skill that matches a certain need. And then often you're overworked in the guise of 'serving God'. No down time, proper rest, or even 'playtime', which I believe is unBiblical per Ecclesiastes (there is a time for everything), and basic OT/NT law which permits rest. All in the name of building one man's empire (ministry).**
This is what I believe Joy is protesting in her story. (Joy, please correct me if I'm wrong). This system is unbiblical, and doesn't allow the Holy Spirit to do His own work, in His own time, and abuses the underlings, which I'm sure Jesus is hotly against.
As I understand Joy is a Christian, I am sure she believes in a proper, Biblical servant hood. I can't speak for what that means to her exactly, but I can tell you what I believe that means for me, at least.
Using my actual talents and gifts to help minister to others as the Lord brings them my way (which is satisfying on a personal/Spiritual level). I do not actively seek to minister in ways where I'd be pretty much useless, although I would certainly do my best if a need came up. For some reason, when I've ministered to someone in a way that exactly suits my Spiritual gifts (Exhorter/Prophet/Mercy) even if I'm physically tired, I feel so refreshed and rested Spiritually. This to me spells out a practical meaning to Jesus's saying, '... My yoke is easy and my burden is light.'
This is not something that happened for many, many people at IBLP.
Sorry for my ramblings, and I hope that put a few things in perspective for you.
**I realize the picture I painted is a strong one, and I do not suggest that this was true for EVERY single person who ever served at IBLP, however I believe it is an accurate picture for too many people who did serve at IBLP. Too many people for me to be ok with it.
Your comment reminds me of Mary and Martha and how Jesus said that Mary had chosen the "good part", which was to sit at His feet and learn of Him. I am beginning to understand the concept the sabbath as being a picture of our Lord, for in Him we truly rest from our own works.
Matthias, is living for the goals of others living the Christian life? How does one know whose goals are God's? What if that authority is doing wrong and she knows it, but is taught to quietly submit and accept this as part of Christ's suffering. She is taught that she doesn't matter. only others matter. That is so destructive.
Joy, thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry that people treated you like that, it is so very wrong. I hope your life is full of love and joy.
I keep thinking about all of the wasted potential that gothard and company are responsible for. We are an entire generation denied a basic education, stuck in a state of arrested development. We wasted years and youth slaving for religion at the demands of our authority, neither of which I recognize anymore. In my opinion, they, all of them not just gothard, are guilty of stealing our potential, our creativity, and our childhood. Like joy, many of us have spent too many years trying to recover these things. I find the comment about nightmares to be very real as I suffer from the same thing. Running from an invisible force, trapped and not able to break free. It's always dark and very creepy. I wake up terrified that I am once again under the control of one of the training centers where so much of my adolescence was wasted on religion when I should have been preparing for my future.
Don't give up, AJL. At a time when I too felt my potential had been wasted this quote helped me to keep moving forward:
It is never too late to be what you might have been. (George Eliot)
Blessings on your journey.
What you wrote above is the true tragedy of this whole matter. Contrast this to the handful of folks here who pontificate that "being a Christian is about death to self" and/or call in question those who rightfully challenge Gothard's own assertions of authority. Is it not clear that the dynamics of "death to self" and "submission to authority" are used as a means of controlling people by causing them to constantly question whether or not that have sufficiently "died to self" to know what God's will is for their life? It's only a short leap from their to believing that one must have an authority (i.e. Gothard, a controlling husband, totalitarian parents, etc.) to "check" oneself.
Thanks, Joy, for sharing your experiences.
As I read your account, I thought again and again of similar circumstances of others, and I cannot emphasize enough that the authority system turns what is to be a life of following Jesus Christ into a regimented system of control directed by human approval/disapproval.
It's true that the heads of para-church organizations have turned the gospel of Jesus Christ into license to do their own wills. This is a grave condition and one from which to walk away.
The good news is that we are freed to walk with Jesus Christ listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit. We are freed from the curse of the law and the bondage of sin. This is the good news of the new covenant.
Those who wish for the old covenant to be reinstanted should read Hebrews 12. It's very clear that we are delivered into a much better and living, breathing relationship with God Himself--Emmanuel.
"the authority system turns what is to be a life of following Jesus Christ into a regimented system of control directed by human approval/disapproval."
Well stated.
Joy, I knew you during my time at HQ in 2000. You struck me as a lovely, joyful and sweet person. It pains me to read of all you suffered while serving in this organization. You are so brave to re-live your experience and share your story with such grace. I hope your courage encourages others to share as well. This man and his organization have caused enough heartache and suffering and it needs to stop for good.
Luke, I don't feel like replying directly to you and encouraging you in any way, but I hope you see this. I suspect you will, because you seem to have nothing better to do. I am not an ATI "survivor" and have never had anything to do with their programs. I was raised in a Christian home where my mother talked openly about things with me, including sexuality (oh, and by the way, for those who are here and think the ATI's forumla methods are the best way to protect and ensure your daughters' purity, I was in fact a virgin when I got married at age 29... and I had even been allowed to go to college and live in my own apartment and work as a single woman- go figure, I was able to make my own choices and stand on God's word without it being dictated to me!)... but I also was sexually assaulted on 2 occasions in my life. On one of those occasions, my parents were right in the room... I was a teenager... I believe I was 15, but it's possible that I was 17. I could figure it out if I looked at family vacation pictures, but I don't feel like it. But we were in Mexico and my parents and some close family friends were admiring handmade items in the shop. I was standing idly by, waiting for them, when the shopkeeper began kissing my arm and slid his hand up my shorts. What in the world?!?! I did not cry out. I did not say a word. I did flee, I suppose, because I walked abruptly out of the store and told them I'd be waiting outside. I had no bizarre ATI sheltering, and yet I still did not describe in detail to them what happened at that time. Part of me thought, well, maybe I'm being overly sensitive, maybe it's a cultural misunderstanding. And part of me was flat out embarrassed. It was YEARS later when I referenced the event in front of my dad and realized he had never known what really happened that day until then. I was also attacked in a parking lot as a young woman, and again, much to my own dismay, I found myself very unable to detail the attack for police. The young male cops who arrived at the scene were actually cracking jokes with each other, which did not make me feel very comfortable telling them that the attacker had pulled up my dress and touched my breasts. I was very, very vague. All that to say, until somebody has violated you and you have been made to feel like YOU need to detail the whole thing for everyone in order to be credible, I don't suppose you can understand. It sounds like Joy actually DID detail her assault for Bill (go figure), but why does she need to do so here... she isn't in a courtroom. So please, just grow up and stop. And I hope you enjoyed the details of my attacks. They were not Gothard-inspired, in any way, and thank God I have parents who didn't think I needed to be "reprogrammed" because of evil men. Ugh.
Robin W, thank you for sharing. I think your line, 'And I hope you enjoyed the details of my attacks.' made me sit up and take notice.
Maybe that's what the folks who are screaming for details are really after. Maybe, like Bill, that's what they get their jollies from. Yuck.
Truly, I realize I was rather off topic detailing my own non-ATI stories, but as I have read through some of the comments here as I try to really understand from the perspective of those of you who have lived this what it was/is like (because I am truly disturbed by ATI followers like the Duggars being the image that the world is being given of Christianity)... and a couple of the reappearing BG supporter/defenders around here really are either choosing to pretend to be clueless or are clueless as to how a person in this situation would react. All I could think as I read through some of the stories was that I can COMPLETELY understand how a young woman raised in this environment would have no capacity to speak up. Additionally, she has nowhere to go, and no idea who to trust outside this world! I was never in that kind of a situation, and yet I still know how hard it can be to detail a violation for others- so I chose to do it to make a point. And also to make the point that assaults can happen very quickly in very public places, with no encouragement on the part of the recipient.
Not at all, I think your input is very valuable and lends greatly to the topic at hand.
I also realize, sadly, that my definition of "no encouragement" which is equal to that of the rest of the civilized world, does not match Bill Gothard's. The fact that I was a teenage girl in shorts instantly would have made me a "defrauder" in the first scenario. And in the second scenario I was out on my own as a young woman in my twenties, walking through a parking lot without an umbrella of authority (other than my heavenly Father's!) over me, so, clearly, I was asking for it.
Has anyone considered putting together a class action lawsuit for the unpaid overtime? I worked for a restaurant that had a similar suit brought against it a few years ago. I am not sure what documentation, etc. you might need for that, but I am sure there are a bunch of people here who experienced it. Fortunately I never worked for IBLP or ATI (I went to one of the training centers for a conference once, that was it). Just curious.
The fact that Gothard had this young woman pray for God to forgive HER for being assaulted ... blows my mind. How sick. I am glad she has found peace, but personally, I have moved away from all religion. THAT is freedom.
For "Luke" - the details of her sexual assault are none of your business. Get your kicks somewhere else. The fact that it was in a public place does not lessen the severity of it, nor place blame on the victim. Girls have been gang-raped in subway stations, which are pretty d**n public. To accuse her of not "crying out" or calling for help is ridiculous as well. Unless you were the one in the position of helplessness, you cannot say what you would have done. Add to that the fact that ATI girls are taught practically NOTHING about sexuality - she may not have even know what was being done to her until it was too late.
I sincerely thank all of you who have given support to Recovering Grace and those who have also opened up with your own painful stories. As I mentioned in a post above, I am walking in my freedom as a servant to the Lord, no longer a slave of man.
To those of you still in ATI or working for IBLP, I'm praying with all my heart that you would be open to see the truth about the ideas that IBLP teaches, and how harmful and false many of them are. I am not rejecting God's Word, I'm rejecting man's teachings. I am not rejoicing in the collapse of Bill's ministry. I am not damaging the name of Christ by sharing my account - Bill himself has ruined his own reputation.
My heart breaks as I see my friends and family defending IBLP and Bill Gothard. I believe those still working in leadership with IBLP are promoting propaganda to IBLP supporters trying to convince them everything is on a good track now. I have heard supporters urge others not to read this website. Why wouldn't people want to determine the truth for themselves? Some believe IBLP is "good" and should continue without Bill. The wrong philosophy and harmful teachings are like a cancer - like pepper in cottage cheese. It is impossible to take a bite without also ingesting the pepper.
It has taken a few years of praying and reading over the IBLP material, comparing them to God's Word to see the truths that were twisted into things God never said. Recovering Grace has printed many articles clarifying these things. I do not expect people to suddenly change their minds. (God, please open the eyes and hearts of Your people!)
I beg of you, study for yourself. Discern and know the truth.
A beautiful, heartfelt statement, Joy. Thanks.
I need to express my thanks to this site.
Reading articles on RG has been very eye-opening for me.I was never directly involved with any of Bill Gothard's organizations, but as a brand new Christian, much of my thinking was shaped by family members who were. I attended two Family Conferences. I left feeling very uncomfortable. I knew something was not right, and I didn't want to get further involved. However, I now see that despite my reservations, I have a lot of reexamination of beliefs to do. I was influenced more than I knew. In particular, I can now see that a lot of my parenting ideas were shaped by questionable Gothard teachings. Also, there is a broken relationship with the family who have been so involved, and I can now see that many of our issues stem from unhealthy and ungodly Gothard teachings.
I am reading as much as I can on this site. Not because I am bitter. Not because I rejoice in someone's public downfall. But because I am learning so much. From the mistakes of others. From the insights of others. Thank you RG for what you are doing. Thank you for how you are doing it. Thank you posters and commenters. I am going to keep reading and keep learning. Thank you LORD for this site.
Joy, thank you for your article. I find it particularly eye-opening. Your closing statements are beautiful and so hopeful. God bless you.
Joy,
What a nightmare. I thought my twenties were bad, under the control of my parents, but yours was even worse. You lived the dream that I wanted so bad--working at HQ! My story would have been identical to yours, I believe. I am utterly appalled at the way you were mistreated and shamed.
Thank you Joy T. I am praying others will see the harm this teaching on obeying authority produces, and not expect their children to have first time obedience (enslaves with mans' teachings), but rather to think and seek the truth for themselves (liberty in Christ's teachings).
Maybe other children and adults will be spared this heartache.
Why didn't the director care about her miscarriages? What about being keepers at home and raising a godly seed? More craziness, control, and heartbreak from that dark world. Obviously we were all pawns.
Obviously it was all about control, never about blessing God's people.
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony. Freedom in Christ is wonderful indeed. The "Gospel" of Works and Try-Harder is slavery and darkness. Jesus heals and forgives!
I saw a quote the other day that reminds me of this New Life we have in Jesus:
The Gospel is not God at the top of a ladder shouting, "Climb faster!" Instead, it is Jesus on the cross, saying, "It is finished!"
Ralph Ahola, I love that quote!
I volunteered for a Christian radio station for 16 years. The president of the station told me plainly that I would not be paid. I am single and have always lived with my parents. My father, a minister had died about 10 years earlier and I was living with my mother, who knew full well what I was getting into. I always wanted to serve God and it didn't matter if I got paid or not. My mother paid for the room and rent for me, as I was living with her. But I felt guilty "sponging" off of my mom. I had worked at some small businesses before and was currently on staff (as a part-timer) at a successful church called New Hope in Hilo, Hawai'i.) I used most of MY money to buy food to take to the station and eat lunch. Sometimes, I only had a piece of bread and a bottle of water. I didn't tell my mother about this, as I did everything out of LOVE and wanted souls to be saved in Hilo, Hawai'i. There are many Buddhists, Catholics (non-charismatic), Mormons and many who were non-churched. I had a tremendous burden for them and gave the salvation invitation over the air as much as I could. There was one President who succeeded the original President who told me I could volunteer (or give me some pay for gas money). He was very dictatorial and put on programs that I did not agree with doctrinally. He was paid, I believe, too, but I wasn't. My mother donated a large sum of money to the station: about 15,000. This new station president was a terrible financial person. Long story short, he forgot that the former President had borrowed the money (and the former kind, president had even paid interest to my mother with his payment back to her every month). I brought this situation to my mother. By then, the former original and kind president had died, and this new dictatorial president met with my mother and asked her to forgive the debt! My mother has helped countless ministries and churches in town, especially New Hope (She basically financed their first big building in town). Now, most of the staff of the Christian station is new and has forgotten what my mother and I have sacrificially done for them. Also the New Hope Church in Hilo, has basically forgotten about my mother (who was a founding member, along with me). BUT WE DID IT ALL UNTO THE LORD-TO WIN SOULS TO CHRIST! My mother is nearly 100 now. I am 69. One day in glory, God will remember everything and will grant us whatever we deserve. -Stan
Thank you, dear Sister for your heart-breaking story. Thank God that you are still sane and alive and have a stable marriage and family. I have a somewhat similar story, though not quite as terrible as yours. This website may release it. God bless you!
I am extremely sorry to hear about your experience and what you went through. The fact that this organization is still allowed to run is beyond insanity and very concerning considering all the stories coming out about it. That being said, god is not your saviour because god does not exist. That freedom you may have felt when leaving the cult, is only a fraction of the freedom you will feel when you question religion itself because, religious institutions are all cults that brainwash followers into believing in dietys, or other illusions, no matter how good the intentions. Religion has only ever hurt the world, and you do NOT need it to find peace in this world. It is men like Gothard who first invented these religions to control populations and the deep rooted misinformation is quickly dissipating. People need to open their eyes and question their beliefs because what may seem concrete, they may find is as meaningless as dust. Satan is as real as god and should not be feared because Satan does not exist either. Humanity is both good and evil, and people’s actions are results of their past experiences and how those experiences have shaped their morals and values, and molded them into the person they are. Your experience with this cult is what makes you continue to believe in some god that is neither existing or helpful in any form of the word. Do not look to god to help, for he will not. Look to the people around you who have been shaped into good people and you will find a happiness that nobody can take away from you. My comment will most likely be deleted but I hope it is not in the name of free speech and I hope that at least somebody who may happen upon it at least question some of their beliefs, and not be so quick to judge those who do not share their own beliefs for, often they prove to be right.