
“Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.”
That’s what they say, when religious leaders are questioned about their abusive and manipulative actions.
“We all make mistakes. Nobody’s perfect. You wouldn’t want somebody airing all your dirty laundry, would you?”
As if building an multi-million-dollar “ministry” or “church” on the backs of vulnerable followers is a slip-up, the sort of thing that happens one night when you’re drunk and hope nobody remembers in the morning. As if.
As if being told “Hey, you don’t get to make yourself rich and famous while destroying the lives that have been entrusted to your care” is the same thing as being nailed to a tree and left to bleed out. As if.
Why do you hate ____________ ?
Fill in the blank with his name.
Fill in the blank with the latest cult personality to resign in disgrace after years of outcry from his once-followers. Fill in the blank with the face that represents power gone wrong, manipulation, deceit, betrayal.
Hate? That’s not what this is about. It’s about saying “No more.”
Why are you celebrating?
Not that a man’s life is ruined, no. That a man who used his influence to ruin so many others’ lives now has just a little less power? Yes. Absolutely.
If that’s not worth celebrating, you’re not paying attention.
Why are you angry?
We asked for bread and they gave us stones. Told us it would satisfy our hunger. Told us it would make us strong. And when we were still empty, they said it was our fault. (Try harder. Do more.)
If I am angry, it is only because I am heartbroken. If I am heartbroken, it is only because I’ve seen what those stones have done to us – to me, my family, the people I love, a hundred strangers that have emailed me to say “Me too.”
The wounds go deep. They tear at the very fabric of our humanity. They pervert the image of God beyond recognition. They leave us limping for years, decades.
If you’re not angry or heartbroken (or both), you’re not paying attention.
Why don’t you just get over it?
I’m trying. It will take time. You don’t undo twenty years of violence against the soul in a moment, or in a prayer.
But also –
Why should I “get over it” when the cycle is being repeated over and over? The same leader back with a fresh song and dance. A brief apology tour and a slick rebranding.
(And when he finally fades away, there’s always another one right behind him – another charismatic smile, another new idea, another mountain of empty promises, another pile of stones instead of bread, a burden too heavy for anyone to bear. )
Get over it? No.
As long as the machine masquerading as “church” circles around to protect those that prey on the most vulnerable, I don’t plan to “get over it”. As long as church leaders give standing ovations to those who built empires on the broken backs of earnest seekers, I don’t plan to “get over it”. I hope to God you won’t either.
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
But when Jesus said these words, he wasn’t talking about protecting abusive religious leaders from accountability. He was talking about protecting vulnerable people from abusive religious leaders.
Sometimes that means drawing a line in the sand, kneeling next the broken, and saying “No more.”
Why are you throwing stones?
Maybe it’s all they gave us. Maybe it’s all we have.
(But maybe, we’ll hold them close and one day use them to build something beautiful. Maybe. I hope to God.)
Wow, this is really articulate and beautiful. You make a lot of really important points in a very elegant and even artistic way. Thanks for writing and sharing.
Micah, what a great article. You make it look easy. It looks like it would be no problem to share this pain and loss. But I know better. It is very hard to share this stuff so it is readable and so that it does not alienate every other person. Good job. Thank you.
The context of the "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was addressing a woman (no man obviously) about to be condemned for adultery by stoning. She probably was set up and the man she supposedly was with was no where in sight. Jesus was not just addressing that everyone has sin in their lives (but Him, Jesus) but the abuse by the religious leaders, the one sidedness of the adultery and the set up. Somehow, this quote by Jesus has been so twisted around in silencing, covering up, excusing sin. Jesus didn't excuse the woman, He told her to sin no more. The Bible is all too honest about the sins, bad judgements, mistakes of it's leading characters. They are not hidden and brushed under the carpet in the name of politness etc. What I take away from this article is that there still is a cry for justice at the wrongs done. There is anger because justice has not happen yet.
That's exactly it."There is anger because justice has not happened yet."Excellent comments Rob where your voice is counted among the voices"the kind elderly" man would and did suppress;Micah being at one time a participant in the charade,Heather's Story,causing me to absolutely search for words.I am so sorry for the denigration,the exploitation of hearts and lives,the misogyny of countless young women;Justice never coming into the equation except for one brief superficial apology generalized,and then minimized into a "lack of meditation".When hearts which are the foundation of human worth are trivialized and violated the iceberg remains purposely submerged.Keep writing Micah.
modern version of the verse---"Let he who is not stoned, cast the first sin."
You make an excellent point, Rob. The ridiculousness of the charge against the woman was mind boggling; the authorities claim to have caught her IN THE ACT, and yet make no mention of the man. Not only was Christ teaching us about compassion and the importance of mercy in this story, he was refusing to participate in the farce of a trail.
This article really spoke to me. And it reminds me of what so many people have told me when I have talked about the abuse that I received from people who adhered to BG's teaching. They don't seem able to see that it isn't just us pointing fingers at others in power. It is us standing up and saying "Enough." That is all it is. We have to say enough if we want to protect ourselves and other innocent people who could be affected by this dangerous teaching.
Me again.This one hits me right in the stomach."As long as church leaders give standing ovations to those who built empires on the broken backs of earnest seekers"."Well put,awesome."Now Jesus has to put on His hiking shoes and down through the corridor of time try and round up the wounded,bitter,hurting sheep from agnosticism,atheism,and the just plain old cruel world...if indeed they will come back."If that's what God is all about,then I want nothing more to do with Him."Bumper sticker sign on Arkansas license plates,"Gothard zombies for Huckaby."
So how do we avoid doing the same things to our kids? There are so many different tangents to follow in life... I could easily get on a different one. I know my parents regret the pathway they chose, but avoiding that path does not keep me safe from all the other pitfalls and harmful paths.
There are probably at least an equal amount of overly-permissive parents in our culture as there are overly controlling parents.
Even though my parents swallowed the hook, they didn't swallow the line and sinker. I hope I'm as willing to sacrifice for my kids as they were.
Daniel,
This is a very good comment with brutal honesty. Thank you for the transparency. "So how do we avoid doing the same things to our kids?" Such a great question Daniel. I suspect that you might be heading in the correct direction by asking that question.
Daniel, it has been a month. Hope you still get this. One of the things I wish someone would have told me about direction in general (not just raising kids.) I have gotten off track when I was sure the Spirit of God was present in a church, person, or movement and just trusted. It is easy to trust. When you experience the Kingdom of God, how can you resist? It might seem like a cruel trick by God, to be in His presence, and then come to find out that God was at that place anyway, not because of a particular church, person, or movement.
I had a comment about the 70's experience with BG:
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/11/confident-statements-do-not-a-solid-argument-make/#comment-172338
"I now see it as one of the hardest things to accept: God can use someone like BG for a brief time. or God's Spirt was already working in those people at that seminar and BG just happened to be in front." (so arrogant to quote oneself :-)
You might read David Pigg's comment under mine about the same time period and struggles.
Trust in your intuition up to a point, but always verify by examining the scriptures daily, and making sure you and your wife are in agreement. Thank you again Daniel for your honest transparency.
I think this shows the danger of para-church groups in the Christian world. There is no accountability and rarely any oversight. It's been my observation of not only IBLP but a bunch of other "ministries" is that too many Christians rely on them over and above their own particular Church group or denomination. The best double check for any of these types of groups is not just go to the Bible (I say that because all of them quote the Bible) but start studying Christian history and see if what ever the particular ministry is teaching lines up with what has been historically taught in 2000 years of Christian history and if what is being taught lines up more with some of the historical heresies from the first 800 years of Christianity. A number of the latest things like WoF (name it, claim it), Gotharadism, dispensationalism etc are not at all taught in historical Christianity at all, Protestant and Catholic. Look at Gothard, the "chain of command" which is the back bone of this system has never been taught, it comes from Confuscianism. The micro management of people lives should have stopped at least pastors from encouraging and sending their people from attending. I think the ideas "well just go to the Bible" doesn't refute people that are quoting the Bible to support what they are teaching. The Bible isn't read as a blank book. Even the devil in the temptations of Jesus quoted scripture.
Tell Luther there was no "chain of command" teaching in the Roman Church. They kicked him out for refusing to submit.
there is a difference between Church authority in it's proper role and this chain of command which enabled abuse, mostly in the family. Luther, Calvin, John Locke, John Wesley and a host of other leading Protestant reformers never taught this tightly controlled heavy handed authority. From a number of the articles and posts here, a number of people commented on their pastors warning about Gothard and people in the Church that followed him either openly defied the pastor and sometimes lead the fight to split the Church. Bill never really emphasized pastor or Church authority in his chain of command, it always emphasized the family over and above the Church. i think that was to avoid being accountable to real Church leadership. On the Catholic side, there is a huge number of saints that didn't follow what their parents wanted for them to do and instead "revolted" against their parents in an effort to follow what they felt God wanted or was calling them to do. St. Francis, St. Clair (ran away from home at night), St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Katherine of Sienna all openly defied their parents in either becoming a religious monk or sister, a number of them even refused their parents hand pick future spouses. All of this flies in the face of Gothard's teaching that God wasn't going to bless children that disobeyed their parents "chain of command"
I apologize that this comment has nothing to do with the article, but I'm not sure where else to ask. I've been reading here at RG since close to the beginning of the year. Recently, I came across someone who used to go to the seminars. Long story short, I was told the familiar, Don't throw out everything from BG, there is a lot of good he taught, too. I would like to point this person to this web site, but my question is, where should I start? I know I've read lots of helpful things, but which articles would be good for someone who is maybe reading for the first time that BG isn't who many think he is, his teachings not Biblical, etc? Your help would be most appreciated! Thank you in advance.
S,
One of the articles that I would recommend is Don Veinot's "Is Jesus a Sinner According to Bill Gothard’s Teachings?". Don works through one of the key passages used by Bill Gothard to establish his concept of authority, one of the key foundations of the basic seminar (which I presume some people would consider the bathwater part). He does a good job of pointing out how far out of context the verse is taken, and the logical end of Bill Gothard's interpretation of it.
Thanks, Ben, I'll look into that!
Hi S,
I believe if you just suggest this site to your friend as a place to learn about some of the results of BG's teachings in the lives of people who were very involved, that's really all you need to do. If you let them know that you've found the site informative, they can certainly begin to explore it on their own. Sometimes if we tell people what they should do, they resist the advice. It may be hard for your friend to accept what is here, but the stories and articles are compelling, and your friend will be more open to discuss things with you if he/she begins to absorb the material slowly on their own. Just my opinion.
Thanks, Aila! At this point, I kind of think they would just take RG to be a bashing blog. I was wondering about emailing links to specific articles, rather than just pointing them directly here just yet.
Hi S, I would suggest #4 from the editor's picks "A letter to my daughter" and #18 from the 25 most popular articles "A Matter of Basic Principles -review" you might look over these two categories (Editor's picks & Most Popular) and find something that you think would resonate with your friend as well. A.
Hi, S -
I understand what you're saying. Here's a sampling - no particular order or anything - that I think would get one started.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/01/dear-mr-gothard-one-students-letter/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/a-response-to-bill-gothard/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/11/failing-formulas/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/judging-101/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/08/bill-gothards-tornado-that-didnt-happen/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/my-journey-legalism-atheism-freedom/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/07/atichildhood1/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/the-thing-about-purity/
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/sacred-grooming-part-one/
Good idea, Aila, thanks. Elizabeth, I appreciate all your suggestions - thanks for putting the links in. I'll check them out and then send them along.
I would recommend the book "A Matter of Basic Principals" which explore Bill Gothard's teaching and the problems with them. The book can be linked from this web site to Amazon and it has a kindle addition as well. That might be a more organized approach to someone that may not be too familar with his teaching or attended a long time ago. The book does not go into Bill's behavior with girls but focusses on his teaching. Another good book which is out of print but you can still get used copies is "Gothard" by wilfred Bockelman. This was written in the late 1970's and it raises some concerns. In some areas it is a bit dated but Wilfred tried to be fair and did manage to interview Bill for the book. When you understand what the problems are with the teaching, you can then understand the problems people have had as a result from it. This web site can be confusing to an outsider at first.
Thank you! I'd forgotten about that book, and will look into it. I appreciate your help.
I would encourage anyone to read ALL the amazon reviews including the single star not just the positive reviews.
I talked to the author personally years ago and my recollection was he was unreliable dishonest and wasn't living right himself hopefully I can dig that conversation up from my notes.
And once again we have a critic not stating what exactly it is Bill Gothard teaches that is wrong though I will look more thoroughly over the site time permitting.
For the record I am somewhat aware of how IBLP dealt with Bill's brother back in the 80's and it was handled very badly in my opinion. Perhaps if they had done the right thing then they wouldn't have had the recent failures.
But for the record I've know for a very long time about some of Bill's hypocrisy. He has a mouth full of cavities and a terrible sweet tooth. I still choose to eat right - most of the time!
I mentioned two books, so which book are you refering to?
Mid West Christian Center does a number of apologetics and they deal with a number of different groups and teaching. Likewise you didn't mention which "author" you talked to. I think it is rather slanderous to claim that the "author" wasn't honest or "living right". that is gossip and slander. If you are really interested in truth then you would be clear and not make bogus statements to discredit others.
RHR, the book is not perfect, but does document an extensive interaction over years with BG that reveals a man who will not be held to account. I don't know what the right living of the reporter has to do with the truth about BG's unaccountability.
Unless you can reconcile with the clear teaching of Scripture Mr. Gothard's teaching, responses to criticism, and corrections (none) on the matter of circumcision, you might begin to refute Venoit's and Henzel's polemic. But if you are not living right ("be ye perfect"), you probably should keep quiet or apologize to Mrs. Venoit.
S,
I'm not sure if you're still reading these comments or not, but if you are, I highly recommend pointing your friend to the testimonies and the "twisted Scriptures" articles - and perhaps even more importantly, the comments under those articles from those with similar experiences who had a light bulb go off upon reading them and said, "It all makes sense now!" Part of the reason why many joined IBLP was because it promised so much and used anecdotes to try to prove its effectiveness. Hearing words from the hurt and battered who had the exact opposite happen to them can be very powerful.
Thank you, J.B. - I again appreciate the recommendation. I was having a discussion just yesterday about the twisting of Scripture - very applicable!
Daniel's question brings tears,absolutely no confidence in the flesh,and maybe the possibility of still having blind spots and being wrong.Wrong a lot!I will bring in this thought before I go on.Gothardism is a lot like swallowing an iceberg.Your mind thinks you just swallowed the tip.But your spirit and soul swallowed what also was below the surface;which takes so much more time than a mere acknowledgement and mental adjustment.Your soul has to know,and can know,not from a denominational perspective,but from the Holy Spirit Himself.Here is where mere words may never suffice.Jesus is more caught than taught.His yoke is easy His burden is light.Love may look so fragile and people who love so weak,but Christ's Love comes with healing from Grace Alone.You may feel so damaged,you'll never feel totally saved or healed,but your spirit is already in eternity with the Lord.
Thanks for the kind words, David. I just look at my little kids- so trusting, so needy, so totally unprotected from... me. I know I don't love them any more than my parents loved me. I want to lead them in the right paths, not just run away from the wrong paths that we have discovered through experience.
It's a big loss to have a lot of formative years, friends, happy memories get tainted by the current revelations. It would be easy to run in the opposite direction, but that's not right either.
Daniel, walk by their side always pointing to Jesus. Not your ideas, not your plans, not your goals, but allowing them to develop their own in the Light of His Word and Presence.
We screwed up when we tried to "do" it according to our own understanding (and Bill's) instead of according to love. Walk. Alongside. You will be thrilled to see God working if you don't think it's you!
I heard a testimony from a man in a small group of men at church last night: 65 years married; 3-4 years now widowed; "perfect" smooth Christian life; no real troubles or problems. He always thought it was him and his good choices. Only on the past 2 years has he recognized it was ALWAYS Jesus! He. Is. Patient. Let us be also.
Daniel, this is a question I have so often asked myself, as well: how do we do it differently for our children?
Something that really grabbed me the first time I was on RG was a phrase "the unforced rhythms of grace." So much of ATI was performance-based, yet it was NEVER enough. I am trying learn that, just as God delights in me as His precious child, I can delight in my sweet children-- not because of what they do, but because of who they are!
Another thing is to remember that they are just that: children!! Don't have unrealistic expectations (again, based on performance), but give them room to grow and learn and explore-- not to be perfect miniature adults.
And as a parent/adult, be willing to be teachable-- it's ok not to know all the answers. Glean from other people that you see doing something that you appreciate in their parenting.
So much of parenting is us as parents-- and we will mess up! So much of it is our children-- as they grow up, they will have choices. That might hurt us or our pride. . . And SO much is God and His grace to carry us, bless us, give us wisdom.
Be real to your children. Be honest. They know and observe so much-- we can't afford to be hypocrites.
Enjoy your children and spend time with them, getting to know their hearts. Their heart matters so much. In ATI, we were trained and conditioned to "know the heart" of someone at a glance-- a glance at the outside of them. Our children's hearts matter so much to God!
I say all of this, not as a parent who has raised my children to adulthood. My girls are young, and I am desperate to be a good parent. My parents wanted the same thing, and I understand how they got taken in by BG when he said he had the answers. I pray for God's grace and wisdom daily, and am learning how God sees me, His child, through the eyes of love and grace and delight!
Micah,
Thank you so much for your well written article and for being willing to share those painful lessons learned from your life experience. I really like this article a lot and have encountered each one of those defenses of Bill Gothard/IBLP.
I have enjoyed several of your other articles from your website, Redemption Pictures and have been subscribed for almost a year now. I especially enjoy your emphasis on love and encouragement to love one another.
Your previous article exposing IBLP for a cult, probably reached tens of thousands of people. Please keep it up. You have opened many eyes to this darkness.
"His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Love may look so fragile and people who love so weak, but Christ's love comes with healing from Grace Alone. You may feel so damaged, you'll never feel totally saved or healed, but your spirit is already in eternity with the Lord."
Many misuse the Bible, the Devil did, and so do you.
Did you stop reading Psalms and Proverbs when you found out David was a murderer and adulterer?
The truth is the truth even if it comes out of the mouth of a donkey.
It seems to me this is more about what Bill Gothard taught than what he did.
You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You wanted Bill Gothard to fail so you could reject what he taught and excuse your own sinful choices.
If I read you a passage from the Bible and I'm a liar and a thief that doesn't make you any less accountable to God for your actions. The truth is the truth.
What Bill Gothard taught for the most part was right on the money and has helped multitudes of people live a more successful christian life - when they wanted to.
And it caused many more to react to the high calling kind of like . Kind of like how Herod's wife wanted John killed because he said she was in a sinful marriage. And how about that scene after Jesus spoke the truth and everybody left? He turned to the only ones left, his disciples, and asked, are you going to leave too? Jesus said himself narrow is the way and straight is the gate that leads to life and few there be that find it. I hope all of you on here find your way to that narrow way. I hope you all become narrow minded.
I've been around plenty of young people who reject what Bill Gothard taught because he is a perv who have and are committing far more sins than he ever did. I guarantee you the thoughts of the vast majority of males on this site are often perverted and vile. They just want to justify their ungodly choices. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that's not going to fly with a Holy God. No saying "but Bill Gothard..." when you are standing before God giving an account for your own life choices.
Hurt people hurt people.
It's sad that when we are hurt we often turn to sin for comfort. How ironic. The abused become the abuser.
I am hurt by Bill Gothard's failure too. Maybe more than you because I've seen my own children use his moral failure to justify thier sinful choices. And nothing hurts a parent more than seeing their children choose sin.
So stop making excuses for living a sinful life and start living right for the Lord.
There are ALWAYS going to be wolves among the sheep...don't become one of them.
If your were sincerely seeking truth all those years reading wisdom booklets you would have found it. But maybe you were just looking for an excuse to live life your way. A true christ follower never expects from any other human what only God can give. So stop whining about church leadership (I'm guilty of that myself) and remember they killed Jesus, what do you expect them to do to you? It's the way we live and the way we die that matters.
"I’ve been around plenty of young people who reject what Bill Gothard taught because he is a perv..."
That's a very interesting statement, Rob.
"And nothing hurts a parent more than seeing their children choose sin."
One parent to another, I'm sorry for your pain. Your comment seems angry and condemning but it sounds like underneath that, you are coming from a place of real hurt.
"It’s sad that when we are hurt we often turn to sin for comfort. How ironic. The abused become the abuser."
A pointed question: If it is the case that your children were abused (or at least from their perspective feel like they were) and are turning to sin for comfort, are you taking steps to change your home and yourself into being a safe place for them to return to? You refer to your own pain, are you in touch with the pain of your children? I obviously know nothing about your situation other than your comment here, but I can say that I have seen a couple different broad categories of families in the aftermath of all this: some where the parents double down and keep pointing the angry finger at their children, thus reinforcing the broken relationships, but others where the parents and the children both find a way to reach out to each other in God's grace and find some measure of restoration.
Matt, thanks for sharing your observation my comment seemed angry and condemning I'll work on that. Love the sinner hate the sin right? Though all of us do and should condemn certain statements and behaviors don't you agree? As you condemned me for being condemning.
You seemed to miss the point I was trying to make. It wasn't about me and my kids and my pain it was about contemporary Christians justifying their sinful choices based on the actions of others. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What Bill did was wrong. But are we responding in a Christ like manner? Are obeying Jesus?
Let's not forget the point of Micah's article was to explain and justify his attacks on Bill Gothard and feel better about rejecting truth he presented.
My statements "hurt people hurt people" and "parents are hurt when they see their children sin" are universal truths and were meant to be cautionary. Every one of us at one point or another in our life has been hurt and has hurt others. What matters is how we respond. Are we going to forgive the prison guard who murdered our family as Corie Ten Boom chose to do? Or are we going to seek revenge like Esau? Often we choose to sin to treat the pain. A study I read of reasons kids drink stated most said they used alcohol as a painkiller. But that doesn't excuse thier choices.
Micah is himself using his influence to destroy lives. The abused has become the abuser.
As the old saying goes, you can choose to get better or get bitter. And many of those railing against Bill Gothard and what he taught are very bitter indeed. I've made my choice - love and forgive. I don't always do it or do it perfectly but that is what I am striving for. And to live the way God wants me to. I don't ever want to justify my sin. When I sin it is because I want to and choose to.
What I see in the Christian community by and large is a condemnation of individuals like Bill Gothard or adherent's who's teachings or lifestyle condemn their behavior or bring conviction into their life. People were condemning Bill Gothard a lot more and a lot longer for what he taught than for his moral indiscretions. It is a fact most Christians want to live in sin and rather than just admit it they come up with all kinds of reasons it's OK.
I've had plenty of discussions over some point Bill taught but once you got talking and asked show me from the bible it quickly became evident they didn't know what the bible said. It's the easy way out to say someone you don't agree with is "a cult leader"
"As you condemned me for being condemning" -- I did not condemn you, I simply described your comment. Reading your comments is like looking at the reflection of an image in a spoon: the image appears upside down and backwards. This site offers evidence and research, you accuse of railing; meanwhile you rail against people and offer no evidence to back up your own accusations. In reality, your accusations apply better to your own comments than to the targets of your attacks.
If you have a Scriptural concern about this article, by all means, share it, along with the pertinent Scriptures that prove your case.
There is a carefully researched and reasoned case being presented on this site. If you are serious about understanding it, I invite you to read here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/gothardfiles/
There is also depth of thought available about the theological issues here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/
"Micah is himself using his influence to destroy lives. The abused has become the abuser."
Rob, what is your basis for this? How is Micah "destroy[ing] lives"? How is he abusing anyone? Could you please enlighten us?
Based on your comments here, it sounds like you're trying to establish a correlation between people's rejection of Gothard and justification of sin in their lives. Does this mean that you believe the 90+ percent of people here on RG who are moving on from Gothard and IBLP are doing so to justify sin in their lives? If so, then that sounds like a very sweeping generalization. I've noticed that even with people in my life who do struggle with sin in their lives after leaving IBLP, it's because they, like all of us, are a work in progress and are still adjusting to living life differently, even if the way they cope may be unhealthy at first. Is that an excuse for sin? Absolutely not. But it helps me see that they're three-dimensional people who are more than just "Gothard-haters." Are you willing to see more than just their outward actions?
Read head Rob,
I am sorry about your children and their rejection. But it is also unfair to say that people want Bill Gothard to fail so they can reject what he taught. A good number have rejected what he taught in order not to run into sin at all. If Bill Gothard failed, it was because of his own undoing and has only himself to blame. A good number of us never left the Christian faith at all. What Bill Gothard taught has a number of serious errors in it. The fact that maybe you following him in is teaching with your children in wisdom booklets and they left should have told you that it didn't work. Even thought the Bible has as some of its authors King David doesn't excuse their sin and the Bible does record that King David did very much reaped what he sowed in sin. But there is a big difference between scripture and its cannon and Bill Gothard's teaching. The Bible has been declared the Word of God or inerrent or inspired. Bill Gothard's material has not been delcared inerrent or inspired by anyone but his die hard followers.
Hey Rob, once again it's not about me. It's about the truth of what is going happening on sites like this.
It is a fact some wanted Bill to fail so they could reject his teaching and should be obvious to any honest observer. And it doesn't just apply to Bill it's a very common human syndrome. My mom told me not to smoke she smoked so I did. You can't tell me not to smoke. I was wrong. I'm just using myself to illustrate my point.
What did Bill Gothard teach that lead you into sin? Where are the serious errors?
I'm not saying you or anyone else left the faith just that many are choosing to sin and justify it by saying what Bill taught was wrong without honestly asking themselves what the Bible teaches. A friend went from church to church until she finally found a pastor who would bless her divorce - then she divorced her husband. We look for the answer that will justify the choice we want to make.
How many of you young people are practicing birth control because you want to enjoy the pleasure of sex without the responsibility of having children? The Bible is clear from one end to the other God wants us to get married and have kids. That is what sex is for - reproduction - not for your pleasure. The fact that is feels good is a nice bonus.
It is also clear from scripture that God intended one man and one woman for life but we want to flit from relationship to relationship.
"God hates divorce..."
"...what God hath joined together let not man set asunder..."
But we divorce because of the hardness of our hearts. Do you really want to be hard hearted?
The church is just as immoral as the world in this regard and remarries adulterers all the time blessing their sinful choice. And that, in my opinion, is a big reason we are losing the cultural war in this country.
I have know idea what you're are talking about. Bill Gothard's teaching didn't lead me into any sin, nor did rejecting it lead me into any sin. You make a bunch a rambling statements that are not accurate. You have some pretty inaccurate views on a number of things. Sex isn't just for reproduction, it is meant to also be a sign of total self giving between one man and one woman in the bonds of marriage as a sign of God's self giving love to us. I suggest you read the Song of Solomon. If that is your view of the purpose of sex, you have a very pathetic and even unbiblical view. Usually in the OT it is referred to as "knowing" someone. That implies intimacy of the highest level. I don't know anyone on this web site that supports sex outside of marriage or divorce etc. With our laws that support no fault divorce, all it takes is one partner to want out to do get divorced. The other may have never wanted it. As always, we should show utmost compassion on anyone divorced, no matter the reason or what happen. It issue is that people like yourself that support Bill Gothard's teaching usually don't come on here and make an intelligent case for his teaching. They come on here like you have, make a bunch of angry statements and accusations and emotions which really undercut any support for his teaching a being Biblical at all. Your anger is a sign that Bill is not Biblical at all.
RHR, I agree with you about divorce, excepting possibly that I think I Cor. 7:11, 15 accommodate intolerable situations for a woman and makes clear that marriage is not "enslavement" (let them depart, you are not enslaved).
Other than that I disagree with everything you said:
Bill Gothard taught me to judge other people on non-biblical standards.
Bill Gothard taught me to:
invest in Ostrich eggs, which was dumb;
buy miracle spray for my garden and play music for my plants, which was downright pagan;
mix patriotic symbols with the cross to engender patriotic feelings about his programs;
The above 3 are examples from Knoxville ATI conferences. He also taught me in his formal teachings to:
"touch not, taste not, handle not" in direct contradiction to Colossians 2:20-23;
circumcise my sons in direct contradiction to Galatians 5:2-6.
He taught me that the Christian life is about dress, music, friends, and various works of the law in direct contradiction to Galatians 5:18.
He taught me to keep a record of wrongs in direct contradiction to I Cor. 13.
He taught me that my daughters should only be trained to be keepers at home, but no husbands have yet shown up for 4 of them, all over 21 years of age.
He taught people to make vows in direct contradiction to Jesus's teaching.
He taught me that my children should not go to college, but we should buy shoddy "training" from IBLP, Verity, and the many other stillborn visions he conceived.
He taught me to despise adoption.
He taught me to lord it over my family and taught pastors to lord it over their flock (in teaching Gothardism).
He taught wives and children they were obligated by God to submit to physical, emotional and sexual abuse.
He taught us all that we should not confront false teachers, or anyone who sins against us, unless we are sure that we have confessed and forsaken every single sin in our lives, something that is impossible because I do not know everything wrong in my heart and mind (my heart is deceitful, don't you know!).
I do not reject these teachings now because I want to sin. To the contrary, these teachings led me to sin against my children, friends and neighbors. I want to be free to love them in the way that Jesus loves them: unconditionally, patiently, without regard to my own wellbeing or self-image.
You seem unforgiving of immorality in "the church" (I confess I may be as well) but you forgive Gothard's immorality. Why is that? I want to say with Jesus: "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more".
You attack RG and every critic of BG in your categorical rejection of their motives which you assume to be evil. But you have no evidence to support your assumption, so you are falsely accusing them.
Welcome to the discussion, RHR. If you will peruse this website, you will discover that all your objections have been dealt with many times over. You might also find some insights in how to win back the hearts of your children. You might start by asking them to forgive you for placing them under the teaching of such a self-willed and sinful man as BG.
I would ask you if you think it is possible for anyone who loves Jesus and is motivated by Righteousness to criticize any of Gothard's teachings?
Don, we both mentioned lists in our conversation in the No Grace Without Jesus post. I just wanted to pop in here and say: I love this list!
@ Don Rubottom November 3, 2014
"RHR, I agree with you about divorce..."
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and it is clear you feel very hurt by what Bill taught you and I can relate to that. When I first became a christian I became very bitter (ironic I know) at those who had been in authority over me who had lied to me and denied me the knowledge of Christ when growing up. It took me a long time to work through that and I still struggle with it. I got mad at Ken Ham when I found out he was taking a $175K annual salary while begging me for money - money which I gave when I was struggling financially.
But we have to be very careful not to react by sinning ourselves and rationalizing our choice to sin because of what someone else said or did.
It's a fact the abused often become abusive.
People will ALWAYS let us down that's why we can NEVER put our trust in people but only in Christ. Am I going to stop supporting creationism because I think Ken is overpaid? Are missions wrong because New Tribes Mission sexually abused children in their care - the children of their own missionaries?
I am actually very glad Bill was forced to admit at least partially to what was done and forced to step down and I think the leadership did a lousy job handling the situation but I'm going to keep supporting creationism, missions, and the good work IBLP is doing.
One of the hardest things for me to learn, is that I can learn from people who aren't perfect. People like David who was a sexual deviant and murderer. And don't even get me started on Solomon and his 1000 wives. But I still read Psalms and Proverbs every day.
Let me ask you this, can you think of even one thing Bill Gothart taught that was true?
@Don Rubottom
Regarding your list, I'd like to ask you about just one point at a time and look for the truth together.
Where/what/how did... "Bill Gothard taught me to judge other people on non-biblical standards."
...and lets start with just one standard.
Thanks, Jeff!
RHR, this will take a while. But here's the first one: there is a Wisdom book exercise describe by some moms here where they took the children to a retail parking lot to observe people's outward appearance and try to discern their spiritual conditions. Barf.
We were all constantly bombarded with modesty, music and lifestyle boundaries and told that those with "lower standards" were less spiritual. The Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus. They were in error.
AS a result of all this teaching I became very intolerant of immodesty in my church and deeply wounded some people, and have left my daughters struggling to some degree to appreciate their own God-given natural beauty. We live in Florida. Bare shoulders are a practical necessity half of the year. Fact.
Matt. 15:10-20
"And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
It is not seeing a woman that corrupts, but "looking on a woman to lust". The lust comes out of the heart, it does not enter through the eyes. Jesus speaks of the evil eye but never of the evil object that corrupts an innocent eye. Never. Gothard taught us to "guard" our evil eyes instead of purifying them, to be whitewashed tombs.
RHR, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. It is not for me to identify any good in the teaching, it is for you to establish that there was no leaven. You claimed we were rejecting Gothard's principles because we want to sin. We say Gothard's principles are false teaching that leads people into bondage and that we want all to be freed from such bondage.
Now you want me to say whether there was any good meals in that slave camp. Did the master ever give me anything good. Was I dry and warm in that slave hut. Didn't my master allow me a woman. Did my master let her work in the house instead of the field. Didn't my master praise the cuteness of my little children. Didn't my master dress them in clean white shirts. Didn't I hear some really great Negro Spirituals at my slave church. Didn't I get free clothing. As Abe Lincoln said: if you want to morally evaluate slavery, ask the slave's opinion.
Wallow in the leaven if you like, looking for the unleavened morsel. I am keeping the feast of unleavened Bread.
@Don Rubottom
"there is a Wisdom book exercise..."
Which wisdom book what page?
Rob,
I won't post a long list, but I will give you the Cliff's Notes version of how Gothardism drove me away from Christ and toward the flesh. (You can read my story in the three-part "Life Isn't a Role-Playing Game.) It's important to note that by "flesh," I don't mean just sin, but also reliance on human effort as well!
I didn't get introduced to IBLP like my parents did. They had encountered Gothard's seminars after considerable life experience, while I started with Wisdom Booklets at age 5. This was very damaging to me because during those formative years, nearly everything in my life was viewed through the lens of IBLP, and it was practically the only lens I had. This means that even my own church was suspect under IBLP standards. The rigidity of the chain of command and umbrella of protection concepts left absolutely no room for grace in the equation. And when I didn't know how to show any grace to myself, it was impossible to show it to anyone else.
I began to deal out judgment on people, even if it was in my head most of the time, and my relationships suffered. I hid in fear from the rest of the world so I wouldn't be "corrupted," but as a result, I wasn't adequately equipped to handle that corruption when I finally faced it head-on later in life. Instead, I fell into the trap of resolving to uphold all the principles and ultimately keep the Law, which in turn, drove me further into sinful habits. My reliance on my own strength and establishing linear, cause-and-effect relationships between actions and consequences to maintain control over my life turned me away from Christ, and it's only been through healthy communities like this one and others I've been blessed to be a part of that God has had room to work in me and help me climb out of the narcissism I had developed over the years.
I say all of this because it seems like whenever anyone raises objections on here to objecting to IBLP, there's almost always an attempt to steer the focus onto the explicit - if there was a specific teaching about something being discussed, for instance. I've done this a lot too - it's the natural result of being conditioned for years by an organization that tries to maintain outward appearances and steer the focus there. But the most insidious and harmful damages to a person's outlook on life and relationships with Christ and others are not always obvious to trace. It's easy to say, "Sin!" and point the finger there while ignoring what drives us into it to begin with...and proposing solutions that compound the problem.
Red Headed Rob,
Thanks for interacting here. I do not remember seeing your name before. If you are new, welcome. I am an ex ATI dad, and I am guessing that you might be an ex ATI parent. I have a suggestion for you. You might get a better response from those here at RG if you can find some common ground. A couple of things you said might come across as you setting the terms of discussion:
(To MatthewS) "You seemed to miss the point I was trying to make. It wasn't about me and my kids and my pain..."
(To Rob) "Hey Rob, once again it's not about me."
This perhaps comes across as you instituting a "no talk rule" when it comes to your life. However, your standard appears to be different when it comes to discussing details in other people's lives.
There is a good description of what RG is all about on the home page you might find useful. Again, welcome.
@Guys
Thanks for the kind welcome and the advice.
I don't have a no talk rule and am very open about my own failings. But in this context, an article justifying throwing stones, it isn't about me or my pain, it's about what appears to be the goal of this website, debunking anything that may have come out of Bill Gothard's mouth because he's a child molester.
I found out about this Website from someone who was choosing to live in sin. When I told them what they were choosing to do was sin, because they know I am an ATI dad, and her dad was an ATI dad, what we believe is wrong because we learned it from Bill Gothard and he's a molester. And she proceeded to go and commit adultery with my son against the wishes of both fathers. But hey, we don't have to listen to our fathers because Bill Gothard teaches the umbrella of protection and he's a molester.
So to some outsiders what we see here and places like it are a bunch of people who may or may not have been mistreated or lied to choosing to sin and justifying their choice because anything Bill Gothard taught we don't have to listen to.
--What Bill Gothard taught for the most part was right on the money and has helped multitudes of people live a more successful christian life - when they wanted to. --
And yet, it sure didn't help Gothard himself live a successful Christian life.
@dreamer
Define success.
There you go again, throwing out what Bill taught for a completely unrelated reason and becoming a living illustration of exactly what I'm talking about. So because you say I'm angry anybody who ever tried to teach me anything is not Biblical? Can you not see how absurd (wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate) an argument that is?
You won't be hearing from me again on that point.
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Read Headed Rob, we will take you at your word that we won't be hearing from you again on that point (though it is unclear exactly what you mean by "that point.").
If you would like to pursue further discussion at our site, please review our comment policy here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/comments/
@moderator regarding reading comment policy.
Done. I have to say I was actually surprised my posts made it out of moderation as I thought they would likely be censored.
I will strive to be on my best behavior ;-)
Given the repeated admonitions to Gothard for his heretical teaching on circumcision and his heretical misuses of the law, I pray that you may reject his teaching. I am glad you have forgiven him, but I hope you understand that he is condemned of himself.
I encourage you to begin with the entire Book of Galatians to rebuild your mind and spirit.
@Don regarding circumcision
What exactly is Gothard's heretical teachings on circumcision? If memory serves he stated it was healthier than not being circumcised and the best time to do it for health reasons was the eighth day. I just did a quick google on the subject and found a PHD saying vitamin K is highest the eighth day and it's no coincidence cause God is really smart and another totally secular site where adult men posted about why they got circumcised as adults and "That was close to ten years ago now, and since that time I consider it to be the best decision I have made."
But this guy is really immoral, he's had lots of girlfriends all over the world, so does that mean he's lying when he says you should get circumcised?
I'm circumcised, are you? Do you have sons? Did you have them circumcised? I had it done on the eighth day and you know what the doctor told me? Wow, not alot of bleeding! For me I have always tried to ask myself what does God want me to do while acknowledging my sinful desires and drives that may be driving my decision. The question to ask is what is God's best? I find it interesting how contemporary Christians chafe and react to God's law and scream "legalist!" any time someone suggests they obey a law they don't like. As a friend once said, "we all pick and choose our own level of hypocrisy."
It is abundantly clear from scripture no one can keep the law.
We are not saved by keeping the law.
But should we try to keep the law? You don't condone circumcision but what there must be some laws you think we should obey. What do you think of Jesus statement if you love me obey my commandments? Or his statement do what the pharisees teach just don't live like them?
I repeat the ten commandments to myself almost every day, not because it will save me from judgement, but because it will save me from doing something really stupid like committing adultery or stealing which will result in suffering and misery.
The question to ask is what does Scripture teach. Paul said those teaching circumcision should go ahead and emasculate themselves. Gothard taught it was the ONLY moral choice for a parent. He lied. He misrepresented the Spirit of God. He should repent but he can't. He can only trim his teaching and pretend he was never wrong. He is fixated on sex and believes that trimming skin off his member will reduce his sexual stimulation. He does not understand that sin flows out of the heart, not in from the skin or the eyes. He has corrupted the Word of God. May God have mercy on him.
We can't keep every jot and tittle of the law. Jesus did that for us. We can only abide in Him and let Him do righteously through us. You do not understand the Scripture if you take any pride or satisfaction in doing the law and if you place on others the bondage of your pharisaical system. And that is true even before you start adding all the "bests" that are but Gothard's or your own preferences. The entire system is bondage and failure. Your children see this, why can't you? Where is this army of world-changers that Gothard promised us? Where are these godly marriages for our daughters? Where are the apprenticeship opportunities that he assured would appear for those eschewing college?
Why did you ask me what Gothard's circumcision teaching was when you demonstrate that you know it by heart? Why did you do it the eighth day?
Forgive me, you told me why you did it on the eighth day, some guy says its better. Gothard always cherry picked professional scientific opinions without any critical analysis. Most of his health advice was bunk. Rubbish. Garbage. And certainly NOT the teaching of Scriputre.
Why do pediatricians routinely and almost universally circumcise in the first day or so if the eighth is demonstrably better? Are they committing medical malpractice? Did you use a circumcision certificate like Gothard provided? Does that certificate give you or your sons any assurance of righteousness or purity? Do you have certificates for other health treatments? Why or why not? If you presented Gothard's circumcision teaching to any Bible believing Seminary in America, it would be laughed off the premises. It is absurd and dangerous if you put any confidence in it: you are putting confidence in the flesh.
RHR
Could you explain a little? Just what exactly are the SPIRITUAL benefits of Circumcision, and why would it matter if my sons were or weren't? Does circumcision garentee anything? And would you be willing as an adult to under go circumcision with out being put under? If not, why should you do it do a helpless infant? What about girls, should they be circumcised as well? Could you please explain why this is so important to you?
@JustTruthPlease
This could get very tiresome as it appears you and some others are not responding to what I actually wrote perhaps seeing only what you want to see.
Did I say anything about the spiritual benefit of circumcision? No. Did you not read about the secular non christian adult who said it's one of the best things he did - as an adult?
If I was an adult I would take his advice. If your baby had gangrene would you cut his arm off to save his life without asking his permission? Of course you would.
I asked what was Bills heretical teaching. At the seminar I went to, Gothard used the command of being circumcised on the eighth day as evidence of how wonderful the Bible is. Back before they had lots of science and even knew what vitamin K was or the health benefits here was God saying "do this." His point was you can trust the word of God. He emphasized this because so many Christians make bad choices and ruin their lives. They don't go to hell. Just make life a living hell for themselves and those around them. Do you believe in the seven day week and resting one out of 7 days? Will you go to hell if you don't? No but in history there have been people who hated god so much they wanted to change the 7 day work week. They found out the hard way how wrong they were.
I find it beyond ironic how most here chafe at any mention of obeying the law and yet this entire site is dedicated to accusing Bill Gothard of breaking that very law!
Remember, the NEW TESTAMENT says if you break one law you broke THE LAW -the whole law and nothing but the law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
So, Bill has become an example you can use in your own seminar, that if you break the law bad things happen, your life will be ruined, along with the lives of those around you.
The good news is, and I quote Bill "it's never to late to have God's perfect will for your life because God's perfect will for your life is to be like Christ."
Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
We are to obey the law because we love Jesus, not to become righteous.
When I read the following I thought of this site
Pro 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Pro 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Who's for long life and peace?
RHB, I hope you stick around. I would love to see more ATI dads here. While it is fine think of Pro 3 while thinking of this site, I am not sure you will get much warm interaction here by saying these types of thoughts (condescending/preachy) out loud. You may have not intended this, but I am guessing others interpret your comment this way.
As you continue reading here and get to know these people, it may become easier to treat them as adults who do not need preached to. I am pretty sure they have had enough general "you are such a bad person" and "don't you want God's best?" preaching and to last a lifetime.
Of course everyone here wants long life and peace. Have you read the comment by Daniel a few days ago on this thread? As of today, it is the 9th comment. The first sentence is, "So how do we avoid doing the same things to our kids?" If you read this and the responses, how can a ATI dad keep from having tears come to his eyes?
The crowd here at RG is a tough one. Get use to it. Getting through to your kids might also be tough. You might consider your time here "practice." I have 5 kids. I interact better with them since I have been on RG. I read for about a year, and have been posting for over a year. Again, it is good to see you here.
Getting through to your kids might also be tough. You might consider your time here “practice.”
Excellent suggestion.
RHB, I had another thought for you. This quote is from Brumby on Sept 30. It was part of her answer to a (I think) fairly new person.
"This is the comment section, not the argument or debate section. To me, a comment would generally be one person's thoughts issued in a one-way fashion. Don't worry about answering every response and challenge. Contribute what you can or about which you feel passionate. It's okay to leave a "hostile" remark unanswered and unclaimed."
I love this quote. I wish I had read it at the beginning of my time here. This quote may not do much for you, if so ignore it. It helped me a lot. RG was my first real experience posting, so Brumby's guideline/roadmap was very helpful to me. BTW thanks Brumby!
@GuyS
Thanks for the welcome and sharing how I am coming across. My intention isn't to condemn but to combat the main focus of this site which is to condemn and condescendingly preach how bad Bill Gothard and everything he ever taught is.
Those demanding tolerance can be very intolerant.
I would like to see us separate the man from the message where some seem to want to get rid of the man and the message. Jesus told his followers to do everything the pharisees said just don't live like them.
The reality is we are all "bad." There is none righteous no not one. It's the people who knew they were bad and admitted it that received forgiveness and grace from Jesus. And what was Jesus response? Go and sin no more? How are we supposed to do that? By keeping his commandments.
What's wrong with asking ourselves, do we want God's best for our lives? I used to think I did but I kept asking myself until I realized, you know what, deep down I really don't, I want to hold onto my sin in this area or that. I have to constantly check myself, is this what Jesus wants or what I want?
So, do you want God's best for your life?
If the answer is yes then instead of attacking Bill and his teaching, we can ask ourselves, what is best?
I believe there is best and you all do to even if you don't admit it. There is the best choice in every situation, whether it's the food we eat, the books we read, the music we listen to, or the company we keep.
Have people been hurt? Taught lies? Used? Abused? I have and I believe you have too and my heart goes out to you.
Did Bill, his teaching, ATI, my parents, my spouse, my boss, ruin anyones life? No.
Did the Nazi's ruin Corrie Ten Booms life?
No, she wouldn't let them.
Did slavery ruin Booker T. Washington's life? No, he wouldn't let it.
They both to one degree or another worked to help their fellow man.
And Corrie forgave her captors, have you?
RHR
Thanks for explaining. I am sorry if I came across as hard headed. You are right. You said nothing about spiritual benefits to circumcision. I only assumed that by how important it seemed to you. Like it was still a commandment or something. It was my mistake and I apologize.
So, am I understanding you right that circumcision is important to you because of what you believe to be health benefits?
But I do disagree about the gangrene scene in an infant. That is a life and death situation, and the baby would be mercifully put to sleep for the operation. Circumcision is only a preferance.
RHB, I ask you a question yesterday, "Have you read the comment by Daniel a few days ago on this thread? As of today, it is the 9th comment. The first sentence is, "So how do we avoid doing the same things to our kids?" If you read this and the responses, how can a ATI dad keep from having tears come to his eyes?"
Part of your response to me was:
"My intention isn't to condemn but to combat the main focus of this site which is to condemn and condescendingly preach how bad Bill Gothard and everything he ever taught is."
My new question to you is: If you read the 9th comment, how can you say the main focus of this site is to condemn how bad Bill Gothard is? Why would anyone answer Daniel, because, after all he is getting off track and sharing his heart? If our main focus at RG is condemning, why bother getting side-tracked with kindness to a brother in need?
RHB, it is not necessary to respond to this, no need. You seem busy with a lot of other responses. It is not a pointed question to put you in your place. I just want you to reconsider what seems to be one of your starting points about the motives of RG. Thank you again for taking the time to interact here. I hope you do not feel my response to you is to "gang up on" to win. It is good to see you here.
RHR, listen to yourself. You sound just like Paul in Romans 7. Is this what I want or what Jesus wants? With Paul, I ask you:
WHO will deliver you from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, you serve the law of God with your mind, but with your flesh you serve the law of sin.
Then Comes Romans 8:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!"
Friend if you want God's best, walk in the Spirit. The entirety of Romans 8 teaches this. You imply that God's best is high standards, I say that high standards, as the Sermon on the Mount teaches, merely prove how all are under the penalty of death. There is none righteous, no NOT ONE.
You ask us to separate the man from his teaching. I did and you refuse to hear me, but want to quibble over words, one issue at a time. I ask you to defend or refute the Gothard teachings that I earlier listed and renounced. As I described them, did he not teach them, or are they Biblical? Let's talk about the teaching, friend.
*cough* he's baaack *cough*
Alfred?
him, too, but he's not who I was referring to *cough*
Alfred - good to see you again!
Amazingly or in reality not so amazingly, those that support Bill Gothard and his teaching don't really dialog very well. It seems to be all or nothing, they can't quote anything even from the Bible to support his teaching (and behavior) and they just quickly degenerate into angry outbursts that make no sense at all. They also degenerate into name calling, false accusations and personal attack on others on this web site. It's very sad but a clear sign on how off base Bill is. When one is losing the debate, they usually fall back on name calling and over the top generalizations and then storm off in a huff. I'm not sure if they realize how bad that looks for their cause to an outsider or neutral individual.
^^^ This ^^^
This theory may not be substantiated,but here goes...Can God use a message to communicate to someone [in Gothard's case,a systemitized body of teachings]any truth in an objective way when the heart,[subjective ruling ethical behavior],of him and his organization was and is steeped in 40 years of perversion,unrepentance,and,the "makeover image" to represent His Kingdom on earth?A common belief was that Gothard, the mistaken idealist,but always sincere,was only mistaken in the objective errors of "umbrella of authority","taking up" an offense","criticizing established authorities,and the defination of Grace he himself defined,and more and more could be exposed as errors of scriptural application,misuse,and suppression of far more relevant scriptures.What I'm afraid you'll get as a result is heart rot from the one who willingly suppressed criticism,by blackmail,bullying,lies,denial of allegations,extortion, in the inner core of your being.God's primary interest in my soul will always be the heart,and when Gothard's heart was exposed for what it was,my heart and everyone's hearts are on trial,....now.Can the victims be helped?Are the least of them important?"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".But upon investigation,the baby is no baby at all,but an unresponsive automaton from 40 years of covering up abuse from the poisonous fountainhead.Not one good thing can be revealed about the Kingdom of God from any aspect.Truth from the inner man to the inner man.The outer man held out too long.
Funny thing is, when this site was originally created, Bill's private wrong behavior was not public knowledge, so to suggest that anyone is looking for any excuse to leave Bill's teachings, sin, etc.. is bogus.
Long before I ever suspected Bill of even the slightest stain, I was so deeply worried and searching for the truth, because having lived his principles all my life by the book, my soul was dying, family falling apart, and desperately needing God. God came for me (yay God!), and dragged me away from Gothard's teachings, kicking and screaming, I was terrified to leave, and wanted to be sure it was truly the right thing to do, and it was.
So when I hear people say that all of us here across the board just want an excuse to sin, it frustrates me. Only God can truly know another person's heart, not one single person can comment on here with absolute confidence and say that we are or are not trying to excuse our own sin, or whatever. It's a false accusation and slander.
(There are some non-believers here, but the majority of participants on Recovering Grace are devoted Christians of various denominations and stages of growth.)
Megan, "I was so deeply worried and searching for the truth...my soul was dying, family falling apart, and desperately needing God. God came for me (yay God!),... and wanted to be sure it was truly the right thing to do,.. "
I felt so much the same. Thank you for sharing this.
Well put. Do you think that they project onto BG's critics their own fear that they cannot "keep their way clean" apart from Gothardism? Many of them seem dependent on the system to suppress, restrain, repress, control their evil hearts. They do not know freedom. They are in bondage. Remember the Israelites who wanted to go back to Egypt? Freedom was scary and risky.
Those Israelites were all circumcised and yet none entered into the land except Joshua and Caleb. But their children were NOT circumcised and they entered into the land. I find that very revealing. They stopped to be circumcised AFTER they had crossed the Jordan. God brought them in without their keeping the covenant. That is because God's Covenant does not depend upon us. It depends only on Him. Praise God!
Yes, same for me. One of the big experiences that caused me to realize that Bill Gothard's teachings were wrong and damaging was my hermeneutics class in seminary. I was (and am) pursuing getting closer to God, not running away from him. I had (and have) a successful career and a happy marriage. As I started actually studying and interpreting the Bible, I kept having to tear down Gothardisms in my mind in response to what the Bible was actually saying.
I am reminded of this pointed statement: "Some people believed it was really more self-help than saved-by-grace. In fact, some biblical scholars have essentially argued that if you scrubbed any mention of the salvation message out of the IBYC seminar, you still had the IBYC seminar." https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/the-gothard-files-the-early-years-1965-79/
My earliest involvement with the "survivor blogs" and RG was not due to looking for reasons to sin (I'm becoming a pastoral counselor in order to help people find healing from the consequences of sin, not to pursue more sin) but due to trying to understand the damage of the false message I had accepted. At the time, I assumed that Bill had lived a clean life and was a sincere and well-meaning man who was simply mistaken at points. As time has revealed more and more of the skeletons in his closet, of course, I now see him in the words of Jesus, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
I want to say that I have a lot of sympathy for those who have left the Christian faith in the aftermath of realizing the darkness of Bill's abuse and hypocrisy. When someone and something you trusted so deeply turns out to be just another user, playing you for a fool, that is a huge injustice and it leaves a scar. I cannot fault them for being extremely wary of other religious leaders after that experience.
This great comment Matt after many delicate yet thoroughly patient replies to some who would strongly criticize with angry,insensitive, weak arguments;and no counterpoints.You have a way to probe with excellent respect,but powerful arguments maintaining respect for the person you differ,but giving thoroughly good unnerving arguments maintaining RG'S stand in the controversy.Thank you so much Matt for your care,efforts to reason,and investment in the Kingdom of God.I've lost quite a bit of faith in the institutional church but not the Kingdom of God.To see people turn away from Jesus is gut wrenching.It is a"huge injustice and it leaves a scar."Not many people,superficial megachurches,and proclaimed counselors know how to deal with the aftermath of Bill Gothard,or the light flippant plattitudes bandaged on a wound that goes far deeper than a superficial remedy.I'm always praying for Jesus to intervene where I'm too blind to see.
oh wow, what a touching and kind comment. Thank you, David!
@MatthewS
Would you be willing to share one thing Bill taught that was unbiblical?
I think you and I have a different definition of what sin is.
I'm not talking about just a long list of rules, though good rules are good and meant to bless i.e. don't put your hand on that hot stove.
I just grabbed the following off Wikipedia and like it:
In Abrahamic contexts, sin is the act of violating God's will.
That's what I'm talking about. Obeying God. Always. In every aspect of my life, literally bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, which goes way beyond whether I wear blue and white. Does God even want me spending my time posting on this site? Why am I posting on this site? Am I obeying God or am I doing it for some other selfish reason? Am I willing to let God have total dominion over my life? Every area of my life?
Through the years I've seen people react violently to Bill because quite frankly he taught a much higher standard of living than most and it raised a lot of hackles.
The fact is most Christians don't want to live the Christian life. Not really.
Matt, incredible observations. Rereading the early years was totally depressing. As I sat in 1979 listening to Bill at an IBYC seminar, this immoral circus was going on which flies in the face of what he taught and what was promoted as a reason to attend. Does anyone know what eventually happen to Steve Gothard? I think though your desire to reach out to those who left Christian faith all together is very needed. I think because a majority of those that post comments on this web site are evangelical Christians, I would image those that have lost their faith would feel intimated to do so. Hopefully, they do read the articles and comments and hopefully reconsider a return to the Christian faith.
@Megan
Would you be willing to give just one example of something Bill Gothard taught that you thought was unbiblical and hurtful?
And this whole idea that anyone who believed Bill Gothard was a good exporter and teacher and believed what he taught was correct is in a cult and controlled by Bill is ridiculous.
They are not "Bills teachings" he doesn't have a monopoly on truth, often just repeats what he's learned from others, and is teaching the Bible as he interprets it just like every other preacher/teacher out there including you and everyone else on this site that puts forth what they believe to be true. And that's the way God intended iron sharpening iron and all that.
If we were honest with ourselves we could admit almost everything we know we learned from someone else. As Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. And the Bible repeatedly talks about, neigh commands, one human being to teach another human being what God's word means. Do you think God thought they were all going to get it right every time?
If someone calls them self a "Methodist" which is just a nickname for John Wesley to you treat them the same way you treat someone who goes to the basic seminar?
There is a hugh difference between being a Methodist and being a "gothardite". The teachings of John Wesley have absolutely nothing in common with Bill Gothards. You don't know what you don't know. Bill Gothard's influences are not exactly Orthdox Christianity. One of his big influences in his college years was Charles Finley. Charles Finely's view of God was a God that was going to pow you if you did something wrong. Charles Finley also believed in an old heresy called Pelegerism. You probably don't know what that is but that is the denial of original sin. Original sin is the sin one inherits from Adam and Eve. Charles Finley believed that children were blank slates and that children needed to be raised in a strict environment that would not expose them to any societal sin. Sound famliar? If it does, this was what Gothard taught parents, to have an isolated closed in box for a homelife.
Let's also look at this "chain of command" Do you really think this is found in any Orthodox Christian teaching? No, Bill Gothard took that idea straight from a Chinese man named Watchman Nee. He wrote a book called "Spiritual Authority" in the 1920's. Watchman taught that God works through human authority and to disobey human authority was to disobey God. Did Watchman get those ideas from orthodox Christian teaching? No, they are from Chinese culture and Confuscianism.
You want to make some statement that we all get ideas from someone else. Bill did and they are not orthodox Christian dogma, doctrine, ideas and thought. Bill took passages from the Bible and twisted them around to fit his ideas and theories. Bill also took his body, soul and spirit directly from Watchman Nee as well. Bill Gothard does give credit to both Charles Finley and Wtachman Nee in his college thesis and work.
@rob war
...that question was directed to Megan
Red Headed Rob, I would gladly give you an entire list, and break it down for you in great detail, but this site has actually already done that on many of Bill's teachings, it would be more convenient for both of us for you to simply peruse the section 'Misuse of Scriptures' under 'The Gothard Files' at the top of this page, as opposed to dragging out this discussion feed when it's already been explained elsewhere. A good place to start would be his teachings on those who have been subjected to sexual abuse. Please feel free to take a look.
Interesting that you can't/won't give even one example yourself.
RHR, "... you can't/won't give even one example ..." That was not kind RHR. It is true, that this is between you and her. However, many on RG view this site as the other extreme compared to the normal "free for all" site with the normal flaming. Many on here would like to see kindness. It is not unreasonable for Megan to direct you to articles that answer your questions. I spent about a year reading on RG before I began posting, so as not to embarrass myself. I hope you can last this rough introduction period. Still, very good to see you still here.
Red Headed Rob, please re-read what I actually said in my comment, and don't try to put words into my mouth that I didn't say or mean. Furthermore, when I suggested you start with the sexual abuse teachings, that actually was at least 'one example'.
I do not suppose you mean to come across this way, but you are coming across as someone who is only asking questions so that you can argue your own position, not because you genuinely want to hear someone else's perspective. As such, is it really right to expect people to bend over backwards to have a discussion with you when it's not really a discussion at all? Didn't Bill himself say not to do this?
Basically, you are asking all of us to cast our pearls. Not because I think you are a swine, far from it. I think your passion is quite admirable. However you are asking us to discuss things, and you won't even meet us halfway. You read our comments, ignore what we're actually saying, and then spout off ugly accusations that are not true to discredit us. Is there any reason I should continue in such a conversation? Especially when the answers you seek are at your fingertips? I even told you exactly where to find them.
@Megan,
Please remember, you and others are the ones who created a web site and publicly slander a man and his teachings, you "spout off ugly accusations that are not true to discredit" so it's beyond disingenuous to play the victim when you are challenged to defend your accusations. You are like a gun control nut who carries a gun.
I did read what you said, perhaps more closely than you did.
"to suggest that anyone is looking for any excuse to leave Bill's teachings, sin, etc.. is bogus."
I know for a fact it's not bogus, there are people who are looking for an excuse to leave bill's teaching, I know some of them personally, that is how I found out about this site. They really just blame it on Bill when in fact they are rejecting Biblical truth. It's easier to say "bill is wrong" than "I'm not going to surrender my will my life and my decisions to god."
I'm not arguing for "my" position "bill's position" or against "your position" I'm arguing for what is the actual truth, which can come out of a donkeys mouth if need be, or even a demon. You and others are believing a lie. I sincerely want to see all of us come to the truth which will set us free.
"having lived his principles..." They aren't Bill's principles, they are biblical principles, and if you were living by what his seminar calls the basic principles you wouldn't be dying you would be living a victorious christian life. It's not his fault you failed so stop playing the victem, blaming others, and take responsibility for your own choices.
Lets see
Design: accept the unchangeables in your life
Responsibility: taking responsibility for your actions, asking forgiveness, making restitution
Suffering: Learn to forgive and don't get bitter.
Ownership: Yielding your life and possessions to God
Freedom: By being morally pure
Success: Meditate on Scripture
Sounds good to me!
"not one single person can comment on here with absolute confidence..."
You sure sound absolutely confident. You are saying with absolute confidence what I'm saying is bogus.
I asked you to produce, on your own, just one specific thing you were taught, book and page, or something he said to you by Bill Gothard that was wrong, after all YOU SAID his teachings were ruining your life. That's a pretty ugly accusation if you ask me.
@GuyS
"Many on here would like to see kindness"
That is one of the most incredulous things I've read on this site.
Are you kidding me?
These are just from this one article:
...building an multi-million-dollar “ministry” or “church” on the backs of vulnerable followers
...make yourself rich and famous while destroying the lives that have been entrusted to your care
...the face that represents power gone wrong, manipulation, deceit, betrayal
...If that’s not worth celebrating, (referring to a fallen fellow believer) you’re not paying attention.
...built empires on the broken backs of earnest seekers
Does that sound kind to you?
I suggest you read through the posts, on just this one article, asking yourself "does this sound kind?"
Bad ATI Dad/Red Headed Rob (assuming you are the same person, if not, Red Headed Rob please disregard) I will not engage with you any further.
HOW. DARE. YOU.
I am beyond offended at your statements. I tried to engage with you in a calm, careful, instructive manner, for edification purposes, and all you want to do is say horrible things about people you do not know, and assume that we are rife with evil motives when we are not. I will not answer you because Scripture says not to answer a certain type of person, especially when you know they will not hear you out, I will waste no further time here. If you truly want answers, they are all here on this website, carefully dissected and discussed, some by respected theologians. It would save time that I don't have to engage in a really long conversation that I realize now would be fruitless anyway.
(Even just discussing one teaching would take far more time, comments, and arguments that I genuinely do not have time for, and almost all of your objections/questions have been covered in other articles, and many of them I could have written from my own experience.) I only have time to comment briefly here and there.
You sir, are harming people with your attitude. People come here to find healing from many dreadful hurts sustained directly or indirectly from Gothard's unBiblical teachings, and you are stomping all over their hurts.
Again, I am extremely offended, and will not engage further. Not because I can't or won't provide exact examples, but because it will do no good, and quite frankly, I don't have the emotional energy to go back and dig up specific, painful memories just to satisfy someone who has already decided to dismiss whatever I say anyway. No thank you.
Have a good life, I genuinely wish you well, God bless you and your family, and goodbye.
RHR,
this is an open forum where anyone can answer and discuss at any time. If you want some kind of private dialog, this isn't that kind of format. Coming on this site with an extensive list of articles that discuss the wide range of Bill's teaching on pretty much everything and not trying to read them yourself is lazy. This really is a poor tactic on your end because it's kinda clear that you don't want to do your own homework but want to push around others. This site also has a number of great links to older articles that expressed concern about what Bill taught in his seminars in the 1970's heyday. You completely ignored my points in my answer about how Bill used some heretical teachers as a basis for his own. You didn't answer.
RHR,
this is an open forum, anyone can comment on any line of conversation. This may be a new concept to you but that is why there is a rich and varied depth of conversation here. RG has an incredible list of a number of in-depth articles about Bill's teaching and what is Biblically wrong with them ranging from grace, authority, marriage, food, hair, eduction etc. RG also has a number of links to previously published work, some from the heyday of the 1970s that express concern about Bill's body of teaching. Megan has nothing to prove to you because you need to your own homework to prove that Bill's teaching is Biblical which it isn't. You also did not answer any of my points to you which is a couple of heretical teachers that Bill did use for a basis of his work and that Bill did mention in his graduate work.
@rob war, you commented earlier, "The teachings of John Wesley have absolutely nothing in common with Bill Gothards." I'm not an expert on Wesley by any means, but you might be intrigued by this interesting article I came across a few years ago. "Wesley and Keswick Models of Sanctification" by M. J. Sawyer, Ph.D. https://bible.org/article/wesleyan-amp-keswick-models-sanctification
Jay,
THank-you so much for the link. I was aware of the connection between Wesleyan theology and the holiness movement. That article is so packed with great information that it is going to take some time to read and digest it. This is the kind of information I am looking for, the theological roots and influences. The holiness movement did give the basis for the pentecostal movement of the early 1900. I guess when I did say that John Wesley didn't have anything in common with what Bill taught, I was thinking more of the authority and chain of command. Yet, the Keswick movement and higher Christian life are big influences on Bill. I wasn't fully aware of the connection with John Wesley in that way but it does make sense.
I was raised in the United Methodist Church. Although I do not attend it now, some things I do appreciate from that background for today. Again thanks for the link!