Sorry, Mom and Dad. We DO Have Regrets

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Sorry, Mom and Dad. We DO Have Regrets

Sorry, Mom and Dad. We DO Have Regrets

22 January 2015, 06:00

Growing up in ATI, our parents often told us, “Because of the way we’re raising you, you won’t have any regrets.” Their regrets included broken relationships, sexual sins, temptations, “wasted” years and the like. All of which we would to avoid because of our sheltered, carefully controlled upbringing.

We don’t know if our parents honestly thought we would have absolutely NO regrets or whether they simply believed that was the logical outcome of this “‘new’ approach to life” in which they were raising us. After all, if we lived according to to God’s “universal, non-optional” principles, we were to have success! Surely “no regrets” was part of that success?

The following stories, told by former Advanced Training Institute (ATI) students on various online forums, are a small sampling of those who discovered the hard way that “no regrets” was unequivocally untrue.

Relationships

“Our parents failed to tell us, (or perhaps didn’t understand themselves), that most of their ‘regrets’ had more to do with their neurotic obsession with finding a version of themselves that never existed; writing a better version of their past, than with any realistic pursuit of a better life. A child is not a lump of clay to be shaped into a better version of your younger self in order to replace your own timeline with one you like better.” M.H.

“My greatest regret is not dating and probably marrying the man I loved when I was 19. My parents did not approve of him, and I obeyed them and married the man they did approve of. I thought if I didn’t marry him, I’d end up an old maid. It was the biggest mistake of my life, and I am now divorced. If I’d been able to date around a little bit, I would have gained enough understanding and maturity to see the red flags that I did not see then. My other regret is not getting a college degree when I was young, before marriage and kids. Now it is too expensive and difficult to get a degree, I no longer have the time or energy.” L. J.

“We were promised a beautiful love story ‘without regrets’ if we followed courtship teachings and authority principles. My husband and I have so many regrets about how we ‘got to the marriage altar’ since those principles put us in bondage, sparked such a nightmare in my family, and left me with significant emotional damage. We were promised a love story we could share with others to help them see a better way, with God’s hand evident at every turn. We ended up with a story that causes others to respond with, ‘What?! You can’t be serious!” and serves to show others a destructive way to avoid.” J. K.

Education

“Looking for a good job, finding one that looks good and getting to the qualifications only to realize they require a two year degree at least. I regret listening to the whole, ‘character will open doors for you that education never will.’ Bologna! Education gets you in, character and work ethic keep you in. I have many regrets, but my deepest regret is starting to raise my kids in a way that diminished their personality and demanded what they should not have to give. I had to learn to be a loving parent when I could have enjoyed years of seeing them blossom and grow.” K.B.

“I definitely regret not going to college at 18. I wouldn’t have been ready until this year, but if I’d been given a different education, I would have been ready way earlier.” E.C.

Life Experience

“I actually kinda regret not having any major regrets. That is, I wish I’d taken more chances, experienced more of life, lived less in fear and more in the moment! I wish I had been exposed more to the real world so that I could better develop my interests and passions.” K.W.

“All the time I thought I was becoming an especially mature Christian because of all the special “inside info” we were being taught. No one told me I would wake up twelve years later and feel like I needed to start over again. So, I regret the years lost. I regret years spent perfecting my perfectionism and people-pleasing skills. I regret the distance placed between us and our non-ATI friends because of music and dress standards. I regret the lack of positive real-life experience (in spite of attending a secular college) because I had to function within a pretty small “fence” – for my protection. I regret the huge burden of responsibility placed on my parents by ATI teachings that caused them to be overprotective and controlling out of false fear.” J.K.

***

In addition to the specific examples noted above, many of us carry regrets that are harder to explain. We regret that we have to deal with unwanted emotional, psychological, and spiritual baggage. A childhood that ought to have been beautiful and sweet, was instead crushed with the harsh, unforgiving burden of living under the hundreds of ATI rules. We regret that as adults we have stunted relationships with our parents who seem incapable of ever just loving us, but instead always finding something in our lives to judge and condemn.

For some, we regret the stunted emotional growth that left us partnerless. For others, we regret not spending our young adult years building marketable skills we could use to support ourselves, as we continuously struggle to make ends meet. And others regret the loss of opportunity to learn how to make friends as children, as we now struggle with making and keeping good friends

And finally, for many, we regret the opportunity in our youth to come to know God as He truly is, as we struggle with being afraid of God’s wrath. Or being afraid that someone else will spiritually trick us with more empty, unfulfilling promises. We are paralyzed: too afraid to approach God, yet too afraid to leave Him.

Those of us who have found Jesus in spite of our upbringing, wrestle with the knowledge that the misery and sometimes terrible things we suffered in our upbringing were done to us in the NAME of Christ. A false Christ. That makes all of this a lot worse than being raised without Him in the first place. We were raised with the most subtle of lies, “This is the real Christ”, when in fact it was not Him at all.

These “universal, non-optional” principles not only failed to give us the promised success and happiness, they left us with more regrets than can be counted.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

About the author

237 Comments

Myron Horst January 22, 2015 Reply

As as former ATI dad, I too have many regrets. When we were starting our family, I was so glad for the time in which I lived because we had so many more good resources than what my parents had in raising me. I saw that they had more resources and training than my grandparents who did not do as good a job of parenting as my parents.

We had Gothard, the Ezzo's, the Pearls, Focus on the Family, conservative homeschooling resources, etc. I thought it was great until I realized that these people had deceived me and did not have the answers. Instead some of their results were worse than anything I could have imagined.

I wish I could have seen better the end results of those new teachings, but it took many years to see the seriousness of the errors. By then my children were grown or teenagers and I could not start over and do things differently. For some reason, God gives us as parents a one shot chance at parenting the right way to get the right results. By the time we learn to do things right, or to learn what does not work, our children are grown and we are too old to have another litter. (some parents never learn the right way)

There is one thing I am grateful for and that is that Bill Gothard deceived me. We are in the end times and there is deception everywhere around us and Jesus has warned us that Satan will try to deceive the elect if at all possible. It is possible! Being deceived to the extent that I was with Bill Gothard has made me much more skeptical of others and their teachings, realizing that I was once deceived and I don't want to be deceived again. I would rather have been deceived by Gothard, discover the deception, change, and be much more alert to possible deception, than what will happen to many - to be deceived by Satan and the anti-Christ and spend eternity in hell.

Last Sunday God directed me to visit a mega church in our area. What we did was watch online the services of three mega churches here in the Washington DC area. We were surprised that these churches were using some of the same methods that Bill Gothard used. Knowing now how much Gothard was a deceiver, they were red flags that we were probably being deceived by the big show they were putting on. Sometime I will post the similarities our family saw between these churches and Gothard's seminars and teachings and how they are deceptive.

So while there are regrets and I wish that my life had not been messed up by Bill Gothard and others, I do not see them as wasted years. For me, I had to discover that I had been deceived so that I would be much more alert to deception and to keep me from being proud because I thought I knew enough that I would not be deceived. Just because a person or church uses religious (Christian) words, scripture, and religious (Christian) music does not mean that it is Christian.

The future is still ahead for each of us. We are not doomed because of our past. We need to use our messed up past to make the present and future better. Some of the best lessons that I learned in parenting I learned from parents who did the wrong thing. I observed what they did wrong and the consequences and was able to make the right changes.

"All things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose."

By the way, I believe from what I am seeing, that in the future college will not be the answer for success in life and a good paying job. At some point the massive debt spending by our governments, and industry will have to come to an end. At that point many office jobs will also come to an end. Look at how many office jobs can be created by the government borrowing one trillion dollars a year and paying each worker $100,000 a year.
- LynnCD January 22, 2015 Reply
  
  "Being deceived to the extent that I was with Bill Gothard has made me much more skeptical of others and their teachings, realizing that I was once deceived and I don't want to be deceived again. I would rather have been deceived by Gothard, discover the deception, change, and be much more alert to possible deception, than what will happen to many - to be deceived by Satan and the anti-Christ and spend eternity in hell."
  
  Well said, Myron. I have had this thought about areas in life where I have swallowed false teachings, hook, line and sinker, and have had to struggle to learn how to think critically. I feel very freed in some ways, and have had the same thought about the end times.
- Don Rubottom January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  Myron, everyone, not just we ATI survivors need to use our messed up past to make the present and future better. Just be certain to learn not to be deceived by pride that we won't be deceived again! I do love your conclusions.
  You said: "For some reason, God gives us as parents a one shot chance at parenting the right way to get the right results."
  I feel your pain, but you may still be deceived, supposing: 1) there is "the right way" and 2) God "give us ... one shot".
  Let's step back and consider what we know about God: He who did not spare His own son will freely give us all things. If there was "the right way" He would tell us (and He wouldn't need Bill to find it in a rhema). But there is not. There is post Genesis 3 struggle with the world, the flesh and the devil. The best I can make of it is that our children will learn most from our struggles, not our successes. Will we humbly accept our inadequacy? Will we confess our sins? Will we call on the Name for mercy rather than reward? Will we love the unlovable (our kin) and help them to love the unlovable (us)? Will we have patience and compassion on them when they find the way hard? Will we face the gates of Heaven with only one plea: God have mercy on me a sinner? Or are we still going to try to EARN a crown before they drag us away?
  Have we learned to accept our own imperfection, our spouse's and our children's? (I mean yours, mine are perfect, of course!) Do we seek Grace more than "reaping what we have sown"? Are we content to grow closer to one another and to wait for others to freely respond in love, rather than command obedience? Are we becoming our children's friend and brother in the Lord rather than their leader, counselor, master? Do we want them to be disciples of Jesus or of us?
  These stories remind me that everyone has regrets. We have a unique shared experience under the delusion of a "better" way, but we would all have regrets even if we had lived differently. This life in this world is sorrowful. The more we love the more sorrowful it is. Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world! And He has dealt with our sinfulness decisively!
  Children, these were your parents' mistakes. But they were doomed to make mistakes. They are sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. You will make mistakes as well. Have compassion. They meant well. Those who were truly unloving and selfish would have been unloving and selfish without Bill Gothard to enable them. There is nothing "new" under this sun, good or bad. In fact, the good has ALWAYS been and the bad is going away someday, Praise be to God!
  Forgive, endure, persevere, seek the comfort of the Comforter and share your comfort with those you find suffering along the way. Search the Scriptures daily, He will speak to you in them (not in your meditations but His Word).
  Otherwise, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you shall die.
  - daughterofeve January 25, 2015 Reply
    
    Love that paragraph about mistakes: "Children, these were your parents' mistakes. But they were doomed to make mistakes. They are sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. You will make mistakes as well. Have compassion. They meant well." I am one of those parents. Laid down my life for my kids. Loved them so much, it hurt! Did everything that I thought was the right thing to do for them (from men's teachings of how to parent), hoping my dear precious children wouldn't have the regrets that I did (Gothard promised!), but now realizing that I was so very wrong. I spend Mother's Day apologizing to my children! I have flashbacks almost daily of my parenting failures. Trying, now, to reprogram myself to listen, sympathize, and comfort, instead of lecture, teach, and condemn. The hardest person to forgive is myself.
    - GuyS January 25, 2015
      
      daughterofeve, love your comment. I also am one of those parents. Love your name also. If this were my first post, I would have named myself, sonofadam as a nod to Don's eloquent insight.
      
      I also struggle with forgiving myself. So much easier to admit, since you said it first. If this is your first post, welcome to RG.
    - Christy February 8, 2015
      
      O Daughterofeve, I have those flashbacks too!
  - Nancy2 January 27, 2015 Reply
    
    Thank you for describing the love that produces unity in Christ Jesus. This is what the world needs to see to know the Father sent His Son. Love between those who call Him Father.
rob war January 22, 2015 Reply

Regrets are funny things. What does one do with them? How does one move on from them? Do we let regrets define us or do we use them as a stepping stone to move on to better things? One of the many movie versions of Jane Eyer had a key phrase at the end. After Jane is reunited with Mr. Rochester and he is dismayed about his blindness, she replies to him "you are not your wounds". So we are not our regrets. Whatever happen in the past doesn't have to cage us in the now and future. The first step is to talk and acknowledge them, the second step in healing and wholeness is to step out from them. God can restore the years the locust have eaten. Jesus is our hope and future.
- daughterofeve January 25, 2015 Reply
  
  Amen!
Lynn January 22, 2015 Reply

Well said Rob
Rachel January 22, 2015 Reply

One of the most important lessons I have learned over the past four years of healing is that you must give yourself time to grieve the losses or regrets. If you don't you will never get beyond the sorrow.

I have grieved the loss of being able to go to college when I was young and single. Not figuring out myself before I marrIed. Marrying young and via courtship. Living in a world shaped by false beliefs and faulty thinking. Spending the majority of my life as a woman who didn't believe I should make decisions that were best for me, but for the authority/men in my life. Maybe my biggest is having children when I was so lost ign the darkness of depression.

Yes, my experiences have shaped me and yes, I'm finding my way. But that doesn't erase the memories or the therapy bills.
Sad January 23, 2015 Reply

"For some, we regret the stunted emotional growth that left us partnerless."

Indeed.

Thanks again to R.G. for the work they are doing here. Keep it up.
- Shane Boone January 23, 2015 Reply
  
  Great article and I totally agree. Yes, I too would have done it differently. Thank you R.G.
- Don Rubottom January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  God has a plan, even in this regret. This entire generation is foregoing marriage. These ATI "failures" (I have 4 unmarried daughters over 22) find themselves in the midst of a generation that eschews marriage. Right place, right time, not our desire for our children, but I'm wondering how it will look 30 years from now, particularly if this generation does rediscover the essential blessings of marriage and family.
  [First, we have to destroy the video games so the males will come up for air! ;-) ]
  - A.Roddy February 2, 2015 Reply
    
    Marriage is great but it's over promoted.It's not the end all be all. Yet here's another issue with Gothard's teachings and ironic he obviously had no intentions of marrying..
    - J.B. February 2, 2015
      
      I'd take it a step further and say that it's not just overpromoted, it's also what it's been overpromoted as: a mechanistic process by which people can crank out kids trained to take on the world.
- Katie February 22, 2015 Reply
  
  Sad,
  
  I hope you do find a life partner! If you are a woman, you may find Candice Watters's Get Married: How Women Can Help It Happen helpful.
  
  Either way, I hope you are in a pro-marriage church community, or if not, that you will find one. It was a noble effort (of the past generation or two?) to try to stem the tide of divorce and immorality with strict rules, later marriage, and "contentment" (sometimes false contentment) with singleness...however, I believe it has backfired.
  
  I believe that marriage IS God's ideal for most people--with those called to singleness being the exception rather than the rule. So if someone expresses a longing for marriage, I will pray for them (TO BE MARRIED, not for a vague getting over that longing), not rebuke them.
  
  I wish you the very best.
Don Miles January 23, 2015 Reply

That's the problem with Bill Gothard. When I was a teenager I heard at church that he was a "modern day apostle Paul". Nothing could have been further from the truth. He sees things in scripture that nobody else does because they just aren't there. His theology is filled with legalism, pride, fear, control and judgement. It is a cult like Christianity. My biggest regret in life is that I wasted so many years following his phony spirituality instead of the truths I found in Gods word.
Julia Fetters January 23, 2015 Reply

Thank you, RG. I truly hope all of our children who spent many years in ATI will read this article and the comments. What a springboard for conversation.

Would you do the same format with parents sending in their 5 or 6 lines of regret? Just a few lines from each parent interested in doing so may be helpful.
- Don Rubottom January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  Julia, my greatest regret is the distance we put between ourselves and families in our 2 churches whose fellowship would have been dear and whose children would have made fine, Godly in-laws. We did not separate ourselves as severely as many Gothardites did, but we did avoid "youth group" vigorously with our older children. They had much more to contribute. We did not allow them to flourish in that way.
Sarah January 23, 2015 Reply

Wow, thanks for this. I tend to forget that there are others out here who have gone through the same thing I did.
When I rejected the lifestyle I was no longer welcome in my parents house. A 20 year old girl with no real education, few (normal world) social skills, no money and very few possessions. I had to build a life for myself from scratch.
My biggest regret is that I will never be able to connect like regular people. What most people see as a crisis I see as a minor issue. I've built what I have on my own and am surprised when others can't do for themselves. I feel like I live in heaven now and so don't really have a lot of complaints or issues in my life to share with others. Sometimes I have to make up a problem just so someone can "help" me with it. What I really need are friends who will listen and be sympathetic to the emotional issues I experience as a result of my past. Instead people are confused at the range of emotions that can be triggered by something as inconsequential as having your nails done. But if I explain most people do not even believe the story of my childhood. I end up sugar coating things so that people don't feel uncomfortable and dealing with my past in my own way.
mary vincent January 23, 2015 Reply

We're reading a book in my small group named"Total Forgiveness" The author, if I understand him correctly, says when we've truly forgiven someone we will never tell another soul what's happened to us. Sounds so much like BG to me. My regret is that I still struggle to discern what's appropriate to say and what isn't so to be safe I usually say nothing.
- Sunflower January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  What? When we've forgiven we will never tell another soul? Then all the stories in the Bible are all about unforgiveness, even the way Jesus and the apostles were treated, because the Bible is there to tell the world and all history of the good as well as the wicked things done.
  
  That statement could enable many an abuser. "We are as sick as our secrets" might be a better thought. If we forgive an abuser and never speak out and hold him/her accountable, he/she is free to go on abusing. Speaking the truth in love, is still speaking the truth. It will set you free. There are many warnings in the Bible about deceivers and wolves in sheep's clothing, and Paul named them and what they did, for all of us to see.
  
  I took a course called, "You are a target" for an abused person to learn to expect respect from others, and one of the rules was to stop keeping the abuse secret. When I started talking about the abuse (not in spite, but because the Bible says to not cover sin but to expose it), things started to change.
  
  Isn't that what this site is for? I don't see anyone here saying not to forgive.
  - MatthewS January 24, 2015 Reply
    
    I don't know if it was the same person who commented or different, but I recall that book being mentioned before. I don't know anything about the book but the idea that forgiveness would result in never telling another soul seems surprising and dangerous to me. Abusers crave secrecy.
    - MatthewS January 24, 2015
      
      hmm, to clarify, I have no intention whatsoever of suggesting that the person mentioning the book here is an abuser who craves secrecy. My comment could look like I was trying to imply that, but that's a fault of my wording, not my intent. What I have in mind is the unintended consequences that could too easily result from following such a rigid no-talk rule.
    - Don Rubottom January 24, 2015
      
      Matthew, we won't tell anyone.
    - MatthewS January 25, 2015
      
      ha!
- rob war January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  That really doesn't line up with the Bible. The Bible records the sins and misdeeds etc of the people listed there and even with those sins forgiven such as the case with St. Peter denying Jesus three times, the sins are still mentioned and even listed in the Bible. So the kind of thinking that if one "really" forgive another person, they would never mention the sin again is bogus, it does not line up with the Bible. When the Bible mentions that God forgets our sins, that doesn't mean God has amensia about them, it means that the sins are no long held against us. Sounds like a dangerous book.
- Don Rubottom January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  Isn't it funny how Jesus forgave them for they knew not what they were doing, but he told the Universe all about their deeds in the Bible, which will last forever?
- Lindsey January 24, 2015 Reply
  
  That does not sound like a good book. I think there are a lot of terrible, unhelpful books floating around in the world.
  
  So many people have tried to lecture me on the definition of forgiveness, but most of their definitions don't seem right to me. Most of them seem to revolve around me not making waves and reuniting with my abusers with a smile on my face.
  
  My current definition of forgiveness is this - Forgiveness is when you are ready to move on with your life.
  
  By the way, moving on with your life might mean you are leaving the abusers behind, never to see them again, a bit wiser and warier. It might also mean talking openly about what happened to you and helping others along the way. You don't have to forget what happened, and you never have to say it is OK or that the abusers are good people.
  
  I am wary of anything that encourages people to be docile and quiet. Red flag!
  - rob war January 24, 2015 Reply
    
    Yes, exactly! Forgiveness is not a formula either. There are a lot of very dangerous notions promoted about forgiveness in that if you forgive someone, then you go back and are now best friends and everything is back to hunky dory. Like you said as more of a sign for forgiveness is that you have moved on with your life. Forgiveness doesn't sweep sins under the carpet nor does it mean that you cannot pursue legal recourse if wronged and laws are broken. In actuality, seeking legal justice is a step in forgiveness because forgiveness is seeking justice.
- Christy February 8, 2015 Reply
  
  "The author, if I understand him correctly, says when we've truly forgiven someone we will never tell another soul what's happened to us."
  
  I call BS!!!! on that!
- Katie February 22, 2015 Reply
  
  Oh, Mary, that does not sound healthful at all! I wonder if you need to find another small group--or, at the very least, back away until that book is finished. Are they open to being challenged about whether this is actually IN Scripture?
  
  I just would hate to see anyone mired in more false guilt or unable to tell what happened to her if it needs to be told.
Larne Gabriel January 24, 2015 Reply

Rob'

I think the Bible is clear about forgiveness but first you have to recognize it could depend on the severity of the offense and the persons involved. In Matthew 5:23 & 24 it says: “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” So first we have a command to repent, confess and ask forgiveness.

Then in Matthew 18:21 & 22 Christ commands we must forgive. I think this is as much for the offended as it is for the offender. “ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”.

Lastly in Roman 12:18 Paul says, “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” I look as this as part of the restitution process since sometimes forgiveness requires an advert action by the offender to complete the process and to be able to live peaceably. But sometimes the offense is too great or close to the heart that while forgiveness is possible a “complete restoration” is not. You might be able to forgive a child molester but you’re not asking him to watch your children.

I find the first two steps to be commands but what I consider to be the last step of living peaceably to be a strong suggestion, by Paul’s use of words “If it be possible”, but not a requirement. While we can strive to be like Jesus in his forgiveness of our sins, we are not Jesus and are but human.

How does this relate to Bill? For each of us it is different based on his offenses and how much time has past. It took me 26 years to give it back to God and forgive Bill yet the restitution (for me I don’t mean money) and reconciliation are still an uncompleted but ongoing process. God had given me a complete freedom and almost a detached way of looking at it. I have come to realize that Bill does not have to answer to me but to a Holy God who will be the final judge for Bill's actions. Again in Matthew 18:4-8 Jesus paints a vivid picture which help release me from my anger and bitterness. “4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.”

Just my thoughts,

Larne Gabriel
Rachel (Bruzas) Foster January 25, 2015 Reply

I have major regrets because of bg's teachings and years in ATIA, especially in the areas of courtship/relationships, no higher education, being taught to judge the outward appearance, lack of relationship with my parents, feeling like no matter how hard I tried in every area of life it was never enough for God or my authorities, major confusion on the subject of authority-- so many things that have affected my life so thoroughly. BUT-- I may have had regrets if I'd gone through the dating scene, college, etc. Who knows. This is my life, and I've been so thankful for RG, for a couple years of sorting things out and healing and growing, of open communication with my mom and siblings (my dad is in heaven), of realizing God's great love for me and that I am His precious child-- just as I am. I have the chance to do things differently with my children. I know that my parents wanted the very best for me, just as I want to do the best I can for my girls. And because of having lived through 'man-following,' I am VERY wary and careful (not in a proud way, Don Rubottom! Just extremely cautious!) not to get sucked into thinking that one man or organization or group has all the answers. I have come to know and love Jesus so much more, and to look to Him. The book of John as been a real blessing-- thanks to David O.(a contributor on RG) for recommending it. I've read the Bible for SO many years, and memorized a lot, but it seems like God's word is becoming new and alive to me.
Thanks to everyone who shares their experiences and thoughts here-- it has been a safe place to come, to realize that our tough experiences are not ours alone. It's been astounding to discover how many other young people experienced the same exact things and are working through the same issues because of it.
May God heal us all and give us freedom and joy in the rest of our journey! "He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it."
- Julia Fetters January 25, 2015 Reply
  
  Beautiful comment, Rachel. You spoke the truth about your upbringing and then the truth about your life now. "Looking unto Jesus" makes such a great difference. The Bible comes alive now as we are understanding the grace of God. Thank you for your comments.
Ruth January 25, 2015 Reply

Four daughters above 22 and single? I know many non Christians that put off marriage until their late 20s. I am trying to understand how that is a problem only with IBLP. Also, i know many girls under 25 that commited to courtship and was married before 25. I also know ATI families whose children went to college and they have RN degrees, etc. Even IBLP's law school, you needed college, and many did CLEP. I am scratching my head as to the notion IBLP is against college.
- GuyS January 25, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, you evidently were not in ATI in the early years. Bill Gothard not only preached against college, he scoffed at it. If you had been in ATI in the early years, there was a lot of pressure put on parents to view college as evil.
  - Samuel Lundmark January 26, 2015 Reply
    
    David, very much agreed! My parents went through quite a bit of consternation when Gothard began advertising his own degree. We were old school ATI--(2nd year Bloomington, Indiana days and on). We attended every ATI annual conference from 1985 through 2003 often hearing Gothard deride college in favor of apprenticeship with glowing (and unbalanced) accounts presented of the latter.
- Daniel January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, I don't even think that a family could join ATIA if they had an older child in a Bible College.
  
  There was a huge unexplained shift that went like this:
  
  Before 1998ish: "You don't need a degree, only character counts. You will have tons of opportunities... you will work for kings. People with degrees are idiots and heathens anyway. You will have to sell your soul to get a degree."
  
  After 1998ish: "Everyone should get a degree through Verity, or a fake degree of some kind. Louisiana Baptist University will give you a degree for washing dishes at a training center. Embassy "University" will give you a degree for watching Larry Guthrie eat crayons, the Pineapple Story, and Advanced Seminar. It really doesn't matter how you get a degree, as long as you do it through us."
  
  "By the way, Bill Gothard just got a P.H.D. from LBU! Yay! Oh, and everyone on the Board has advanced degrees from secular colleges. Awesome! All our conference speakers have advanced degrees this year! So cool!"
  
  They acted like nothing had changed.
  - David Pigg January 26, 2015 Reply
    
    Daniel,This thread is starting to become somewhat lively;so please excuse my impropriety..Could you be the Daniel married to Cara O.,and living in Va.around Manassas?Thank you for your inside view of what many cannot face,concerning the implications of what will ultimately simply be burned up.We had been on false ground,used for what could be gotten,spent in religious vanity,profited for natural means,regarded from a distance,then discarded.You chose to speak up.Thank you for the boldness against the usurper of life.Bless you and Guy.
- MatthewS January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  IBLP/ATI was staunchly against college, to the deep financial detriment of many. It was made clear when I was in ATI (It was ATIA at the time) and was college age, say 1992-ish, that college was a "high place." College was idolatry, it was wrong, it would not help you get a job anyway, and Bill supposedly knew a bunch of major business people who were lined up and trying to hire ATI students but he was fighting them off for the time being. It was a major decision for the entire family for me to go to college. I had to speak with the family coordinator on the phone about it, though to his credit he deferred to my parents' decision who were finally giving permission for me to go. I believe I turned 20 my first freshman semester.
  
  Random memory: I had a chance to speak with one of their head computer guys. He managed the mainframe they had, which was then replaced with a VAX. I asked him what it would look like for me to get computer training and what he looked for in promising students. He repeated the stock lines about how he would look for character first and for initiative and such but I could see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice that he didn't believe it. He knew he was feeding me a line, he knew it and I could feel it. I was very disappointed at the time but it helped me realize that there was no roadmap for me in the program to pursue my desired career.
- GuyS January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Daniel, I knew someone would do a better job than me. Just had to put in my .02. Love your dispassionate time line of the schizophrenic madness. Enough to make a preacher cuss.
  
  Another thing related to this trip down memory lane, BG assured us many times he was working hard to have his own law and med school. He promised when that happened, there would be a "fast track" with "shortcuts" (my words) so the student would not have to wade thru the normal "fluff courses." ATI students would be able to breeze through courses without all the "academia" bureaucrat busy work nonsense. They would be given the "inside information" resources.
  
  That did not happen on the first year of his law school for me. It was an "evil contest" the first year with limited resources to use. At least that was my experience as a good cult follower who obeyed the evil rules. I am sure things are different now at the law school, as far as the limited resources rules go. Someday, I hope to write more about this.
  - Mark R January 26, 2015 Reply
    
    I shudder to think, had Gothard actually created a medical school, what he would consider "fluff courses". (Actually I could have passed his school in a few weekends by simply reading his MTIA Wisdom Care booklets.)
    - rob war January 27, 2015
      
      He didn't create a medical or law school. It was all bogus. His medical ideas would never pass any legitimate medical boards or even hospital.
    - GuyS January 27, 2015
      
      Rob War, the law school I was referring to is Oak Brook College of Law.
      
      http://www.obcl.edu/
      
      BG started it, but after some of the stories here on RG came out, OBCL separated itself from IBLP. Others may jump in and give more details.
    - eva January 31, 2015
      
      But I saw young people come to work with a doctor who was in ATI. Sometimes several at a time. That stopped after awhile.
    - Darce February 19, 2015
      
      Hi all,
      
      I just wanted to comment on the medical school thing. Board certified MD means a doctor is board-certified, but a doctor does not have to take those tests (or any other oversight tests)to become a physician. You are considered a medical doctor when you graduate from a medical school. Therefore it IS possible for someone like Gothard to create a medical school and start churning out "doctors" who could be very un-educated and yet fully licensed and legal doctors. Scary, huh?
      
      That's why you never go to a doctor who isn't board-certified. Board certification IS difficult to achieve and it means that, no matter where your doctor went to school, s/he at least knows their stuff in that given specialty. There are plenty of doctors who are not board-certified because they can't pass the tests, and many of them got their "medical degrees" from off-shore medical schools. There is more oversight of lawyers than doctors in America. If you don't pass the bar, you can't practice law. That's not true of physicians though!!
      
      I was just reading through the comments, and wanted to mention all this for anyone who didn't know. It is a frightening thought--having a doctor who graduated from a Gothard Medical School.
    - Don Rubottom February 21, 2015
      
      There is no REAL oversight of lawyers because they are ONLY regulated by other lawyers. Doctors, at least, have to face the fire of a malpractice lawsuit when they hurt someone. but lawyers are never judged by non-lawyers.
- GuyS January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  MatthewS, you slipped in your comment while I was working on mine. As a result, I slighted you by not including your name as "someone would do a better job than me." I like you and Daniel the same :-) You and Daniel both get credit for helping me not say bad words about the misleading college propaganda.
  - MatthewS January 26, 2015 Reply
    
    oh, not a slight at all. Agree that Danny's comment was well-said and helpful, and so was yours :-)
    - MatthewS January 26, 2015
      
      hmm, my apology to Daniel. I try to never shorten or change people's names from what they say it is without permission, and I looked back up the comment stream and I referred to Daniel as Danny. Sorry about that! I've had some friends who are Daniel who go by Danny, but that's up to the person, not to me.
    - Daniel January 26, 2015
      
      No problem, MatthewS. :-)
      
      Good thoughts, both of you guys.
      
      On a more serious note, I know several of the early families that had a serious delay or a much lesser career due to the lack of realistic education.
      
      I personally think this is one of the greatest misdeeds. I've seen men with broken hearts that could not marry, because they didn't have a "real" job that could support a family. Some people did awesome without the education- they were not the norm. Not everyone needs to go to college, I agree.
Elizabeth D January 26, 2015 Reply

Guy - Notice how some people provoke those bad words and get others riled up? I almost hesitate to interject here because there's not much to go on, but if "Ruth" posts in the future, she'll do it under a duck-poop alert, if you catch my drift.
- GuyS January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Elizabeth D, "nature hates a vacuum" might be working here. Someone will probably take you know who's place. It's OK. I expect it. In some ways it is good. It would seem oddly random for me to begin my spiel about BG's college madness. Best to let someone else bring it up. That way I look more normal :-) It does not take much for me to get riled up.
  - Elizabeth D January 27, 2015 Reply
    
    Guy - I've got to admit that my antenna doesn't pick up all the channels, & I'm not sure what you're saying, although I'm quite sure I'd support you in it if I did, LOL.
  - GuyS January 27, 2015 Reply
    
    Elizabeth D, Ha! The problem is not with your antenna pickup but with my idiom. My original "nature hates..." should be corrected to "nature abhors..." I checked google and sure enough the correct version is 30 times more popular. Some definition/examples of the phrase, "As soon as the beggar who used to work that corner left, another one showed up." Also "If you clean off the counter, someone will put something on the cleared space. If you clean out a dresser drawer, you'll buy new clothes to fill it. Basically, no space will stay empty for long."
    
    "You know who's place." is Alfred. So, we can get rid of Alfred and that space will not stay empty for long. We live in a fallen world and the wicked man/women cannot sleep unless they cause someone to stumble.
    Elizabeth, I am not sure I believe that false modesty bit about not picking up on all channels. I clearly remember your 5 or 6 page " tour de force of logic and looking beneath the surface in an insightful way." Happened in mid Oct last year concerning Anne (full of moral excellence.) Even though it is not fair to use obscure phrases, I am proud that I "stumped" you :-)
    - Elizabeth D January 27, 2015
      
      Guy - you could've said "abhors" and my antenna still wouldn't have been picking up, LOL. And I assure you - there's plenty that it misses!
      
      I get it now. We were on different wavelengths. I was actually referring to the last part of that mid-October post, trying to not be too accusatory, but warning you that "Ruth" could be Alfred's friend. But she'd only posted once that I knew of, and suspicious as it was, I was trying to give "her" the benefit of the doubt. Meanwhile, "Ruth" continued to post, and seems to me to have given himself away over on the "Open Letter" page in a post about the "A Matter of Basic Principles" book.
      
      Alfred wasn't on my radar, thus my cluelessness. I do miss him, but have appreciated the peacefulness, at least until "Ruth" stirred the pot. Apparently you're not the only one that thinks Alfred's back, but there are some give-away differences between him and at least a handful of shady characters that have wandered in and out since I've been here (almost a year), including "Ruth" (a particularly revolting pseudonym) and "Anne."
Tangent January 26, 2015 Reply

I remember BG stating that if you went to a college or university and had some great success in life, then the school and not the Lord would get the glory. But it doesn't seem to have been an issue that he, BG, would get the glory for all the supposedly wonderful things that would be done through his program.
- GuyS January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Tangent, I clearly remember that also. There are so many memories like that. Where does one start? Glad you commented.
- rob war January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Oh please, that is the biggest punch of bull waste I've ever heard. Success from a college degree that someone worked hard for in order to move on the talents and desires that God gave them and then claim that this person won't be giving God the credit is lunacy. Sorry but education has always been the hallmark and tradition of Christianity in 2000 years. The university system was developed by monks and around monasteries in the middle ages. Wherever Christianity spread, the concern to teach everyone reading, writing, math spread not just to the rich but to the common folk as well. Bill's anti-higher education is a form of enslavement to him and his ministry and feed his ministry low paying gullible young people to be used and abused by him. And all this from someone that HAS higher education degrees.
  - The Quiet One January 29, 2015 Reply
    
    I have recently been taking more upgrade courses (still catching up) from a publicly funded, secular institution. One of them was on world history and it was talking about the Reformers and how they believed strongly in public education, so that everyone could read the Bible for themselves (the Counter Reformation produced in response the public education of the Jesuits). I found it highly amusing to think that those much touted heroes of the faith were actually the original impetus for the public education so many modern Christian parents view with horror.
    - Christy February 8, 2015
      
      Indeed, quite the irony.
  - Don Rubottom February 9, 2015 Reply
    
    Someone who uses the title "Dr."
Ruth January 26, 2015 Reply

Anna Duggar was 20 when she got married. Jill and Jessa were 22 and under.
- rob war January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  And the point is?
Ruth January 26, 2015 Reply

Isn't one objective of Recovering Grace to see change? I remember seeing the focus of IBLP changing towards college degrees with the start of the law school in the mid 90s... this was change... and it became more and more acceptable then. So change was happening in this area...
- P.L. January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Well, throughout the nineties and well into the noughties I was the object of scorn as the only young woman in a nest of Gothardites who had a college degree (and more than one! In the sciences..a man's field! How ghastly!). I can still remember the sneering--a common put-down was that I didn't know how to cook--the frowns when a new woman at the church cheerfully told everyone that I had been elected to a state scientific office. So I don't accept your argument that things had changed. When it finally did, it was because Gothardite daughters were in their mid-thirties and unmarried and some parents finally decided that getting a degree might be a good thing for them after all. But those girls remain some fifteen to twenty years behind their peers...in emotional and intellectual development and certainly in financial independence. I'm deeply thankful that my parents, though involved for a time in ATI, never bought the anti-college, women-don't-need-an-education bunk. And I could think of stronger words to use than bunk.
- Daniel January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, imagine I'm eating fried chicken at a buffet, then the owner suddenly realizes that it is all bad chicken, but doesn't tell me. Am I going to be grateful that he started putting a few pieces of good chicken on the pile of bad chicken?
Ruth January 26, 2015 Reply

There are fluff courses with traditional education today. Consider how many secular companies allow accredited credit for just reading a safety course at work and passing a ten question multiple choice test you can retake multiple times.
- P.L. January 26, 2015 Reply
  
  Ummm...taking a safety course at work isn't equivalent to a college education.
- rob war January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  sweeping generalizations are not reality. Unless you can point to or name some "fluff" course being offered that is meaningless, then it would be better not to repeat Bill's anti-education lie. Don't you think it is hypocritical that a man like Bill has not only a college degree but a masters in divinity as well as a PhD telling others not to educate themselves and develop their talents? I think it is. If higher education is so bad or wrong then Bill ought to have renounced his own degrees and not moved on the PhD. which is a recent development for him to begin with.
- Elizabeth D January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Really? You need to be more careful. You just stated that secular "companies" "allow" accredited credit for silly little quizzes. COMPANIES can set criteria for continuing education or skill development, and if they want employees to take little quizzes, that's up to them, and extremely common. But a COMPANY is not an educational institution (accredited or not), and is not in the business of granting educational credits (accredited or not).
  
  It's like you're saying that General Electric confers college credit to an employee that goes through internal training. That's just absurd.
  
  "Continuing education" credits are a whole different concept. They could be offered by a business, but one does not obtain a degree from those.
- Nancy2 January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  My child went to college and graduated with a BS in Political Science/English. After working in government for 2 years entered corporate life and went on to Graduate school earning an MBA and a MS in IT Management. Had zero fluff courses. Zero! Many of the 100s of friends had zero fluff courses.
  
  As the complexities of the subjects based on technological advances/discoveries grew fluff courses place an added burden on most students. They are not as popular as one might think. Most universities factor one's GPA using only courses that apply to their major and area of concentration thereby keeping a student from using a fluff course to boost their standing in their graduating class. The only way to boost GPA is by taking an extra higher level course that applies to one's major.
  
  As far as corporate education and credits most large corporations give tuition re-embursments and send their employees to a university. No work done on the job is magically turned into a class credit. They may qualify for a certification to do a particular job, but that is not seen as advanced education in the corporate world. While doing their undergraduate my child was certified to drive a forklift and administer first aid through their part time employer, but those didn't make them an educated person.
  
  Child's graduate degrees were attained through the university of their corporations choice. Now they recruit for their corporation in universities throughout their state. Speaks to student bodies letting them know what a large corporations look for in the student's transcripts (No Fluff). The universities love when they speak because it helps them better guide a student toward taking their course load seriously. Child doesn't recruit fluff students getting by in fluff courses.
  
  Yes my child is a Christian, and no education did not move them further away from God. They love the Lord more than ever.
  
  BG feed frightened parents a bill of goods. He got them focused on themselves and their own holiness instead of the Father who gave everything, His Only Begotten Son, so that they might know Him and His love. Then BG made those frightened parents look at those of us who love the Lord, just like they love the Lord, with a perception of being "Casual Christians" not like them the "Serious Christians". BG has cause huge separations within the Body of Christ. This is serious. Hugely serious.
  
  John 17:23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
  
  Our unity shows the world the Father sent His Son!
  
  There is an idolatry that many do not talk about. It is the idolatry of moralism. I'm not speaking of Godly morality prompted by the Holy Spirit as He sanctifies us. Moralism gives a formula that if you follow it will provide you with the perfect life full of blessing. God blesses you if only you will keep this list of vows. Before they know it the formula replaces God and becomes an idol. "If you will..." Almost sounds like a serpent..."If you will eat of the fruit you will be like God."...that desires mankind to struggle to do instead of developing a relationship with the One that knows us completely yet loves us anyway.
  
  If our purpose is to be the aroma of Christ (2 Cor. 2:15) to a world in need of the Savior then how can we not weep when a man leads a large portion of the Body of Christ into the sin of moralism and keeps The Church from impacting the world?
  
  My regret is for how the lost have been impacted as they witness such division where God has desired unity.
  - Leslie January 27, 2015 Reply
    
    I so agree with you Nancy2.
  - Becoming Free January 28, 2015 Reply
    
    Thank you for your comments on education - very interesting.
    
    Your comments about how Bill fed frightened parents a bill of goods and espoused the idolatry of morality resonated with me. Although I'm not a parent, I see the effects of this in the blogs of so many ATI and homeschooled and quiverfull young(er) adults.
    
    It's so very, very said that so many, many young adults raised in those views have completely rejected Jesus, having a relationship with Jesus, and the truth of Scripture and identify themselves specifically as atheists or as no longer Christians and reject attempts by those who are believers to encourage them back to the Lord (something like "I can out-Bible you with the best of them"). BG and his compatriots like Doug Phillips have wrecked so many lives with their false teaching.
    - Nancy2 January 28, 2015
      
      Becoming Free, it breaks my heart too.
      
      I remember a time in my child's life they questioned their faith. They asked me how I knew so confidently that Jesus was real and Christianity was the answer. I told them I knew because I know me. I know what it feels like to be frustrated by weakness. I knew what it was like to fall short in those things I have worked hard toward. I'm always just a little bit or a lot not enough. I let others down even when I do my best. The only belief system that describes me as I know myself to be is the Christian worldview. It is the only system that helps me understand my fallen state. It is also the only system that offered me the Savior I need. I need Jesus. Then I asked my child, "Who do you say you are? Where will you find your help?" Time passed, my child pondered these questions, and the Holy Spirit confirmed in his heart his need for Jesus too.
      
      Why does mankind complicate what Our Heavenly Father has made so easy?
    - Becoming Free January 29, 2015
      
      Thanks for sharing, Nancy2. I appreciate your testimony here too - very much.
      
      I agree - "Why does mankind complicate what Our Heavenly Father has made so easy?"
  - David Pigg January 28, 2015 Reply
    
    Very well spoken.When will the breach be closed?Thank you so much for those words.Your comment dares anyone and rightfully so to speak out against the"supramoralist",who hid behind his concocted facade and put a false division in the Body of Christ,while his immorality festered behind closed doors,totally known by those who deemed the price worthwhile for a few to benefit,and hope to propagate the "guise of morality" at the cost of missing Jesus.
    - Nancy2 January 28, 2015
      
      "When will the breach be closed?"
      
      I pray soon.
  - Christy February 8, 2015 Reply
    
    "There is an idolatry that many do not talk about. It is the idolatry of moralism"
    
    A--------------------------------------------------
    MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GuyS January 27, 2015 Reply

Ruth, Two days ago, Jan 25, you ask some questions. You said, "I am trying to understand..." and "I am scratching my head..." Maybe honest questions. Big problem, you refused to thank those who answered. Or ask for clarification. You do not need to be kind here, but that pattern might cause people here to think you really might be Alfred, and only using the name Ruth. Alfred's pattern was to do that a lot.

The next day the pattern continues with you bringing up Duggar girls, then questions about RG objectives (motives ?) and then fluff courses. Lots of questions, but no acknowledgment of the answers. It is your reputation Ruth. I am suggesting you show kindness.

A couple of weeks before Alfred was ask not to post here, I tried to give him a lesson on kindness. (many had tried) He cried like a 10 year old. never did apologize for his churlish ill-mannered behavior. He did the obfuscate thing he was famous for, and then just pretended not to understand.

People can only take so much Ruth. You are off to a bad start. Did you see Daniel's comment yesterday? He said in part, "I personally think this is one of the greatest misdeeds. I've seen men with broken hearts that could not marry, because they didn't have a "real" job that could support a family."

Ruth, a good start for you might be to address what Daniel and MathewS and others said with compassion, not more questions. It is your reputation Ruth.
- LynnCD January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Whether Ruth is Alfred or not, whoever it is, is ignoring a major point and that about the level of control Gothard sought to have over what should have been family and individual choices about higher education. You were made out to be a bad person unless you went to Verity, or OBCL, according to former ATI students I have heard from, years ago. Gothard's reasons were to continue sheltering people from demon infested humanism, and also, presumably (but based on other things Gothard has said) immorality. It should be patently clear from Gothard's behavior, Doug Phillips' behavior, the reported problems of porn when Patrick Henry college was in its first years, and more, that it takes much more than hyper control of the environment to deal with problems which exist in every human heart.
  
  Whoever Ruth is is also introducing valid points, such as much of secular education being a dumbed down waste of time. Ruth has not touched on the financial and reputational persecution of those in higher education if they adhere to intelligent design models of life (see "Expelled"). Whoever Ruth is could raise many valid concerns, but the solutions many were subjected to in ATI are NOT the answer to these valid concerns. Nor is the hap hazard analogy teaching of ATI. You can only make good analogies if you have been taught subjects in a systematic way, and have had at least elementary instruction in how to think critically. As far as I can tell, the old ATI curriculum hamstrung the ability of young people to succeed. Many, not all, but many were badly affected.
  
  That said, I watched Watter's World last night and was astounded at how many young adults could not name our first President, did not know which country attacked Pearl Harbor, and many mor questions like these. Public education is in a shambles if all those who could not answer the questions have high school diplomas, but the ATI I was looking at years ago was not the solution to this mess.
  - The Quiet One January 29, 2015 Reply
    
    I've been doing some thinking about the current concerns over public education. Having lived in a culture where the majority of the adult population is illiterate but education is increasingly accepted for children, I tend to think that any education is better than none at all. The ability to read, in and of itself, means that one is able to learn more than one's community can teach via oral instruction.
    
    However, many of those illiterate or semi-illiterate adults were intelligent and alert. They picked up any stray bits of knowledge that came their way - I remember one who had taught themselves to speak, read and write English just from working with aid workers. They could ask intelligent questions about things they didn't know and most of them spoke more than one language.
    
    I don't think that it was their lack of education which made them so interested in learning, but rather the fact that to learn meant they had a better chance of survival. It was not only fun to be curious, but also necessary.
    
    Perhaps it is the security and comfort of the West which makes students so dull, rather than poor teaching. I have no doubt that those young adults had heard the names of George Washington and Japan many times, but they did not see the relevance or value in remembering the information for living in their world.
  - rob war January 29, 2015 Reply
    
    One cannot judge the sum and total of public education by Watter's World which is produced for the laughs it brings. What he shows on TV probably doesn't include all the people he did interview or even agreed to be interviewed by him that got it right. Whatever the weaknesses and problems there are and is in public education is nothing in comparison to con job in leading people to believe that they should not pursue any type of higher education at all. Bill also trashes all religious and parochial schools which do a better than the public school education. Likewise there are many wonderful Christian colleges and universities that are academically challenging and true to the Christian faith. From the many comments I've read here on RG, it seemed like ATI was even deficient in teaching basic three R's. A number of posters have stated that parents had to supplement ATI in math and reading by using other non-ATI material.
  - GuyS January 30, 2015 Reply
    
    LynnCD, said "is ignoring a major point and that about the level of control Gothard sought to have over what should have been family and individual choices about higher education." I agree. BG's level of control was evil. He had lots of control over many of us, but he was never satisfied. He always wanted more. There was no freedom of small choices or large choices like higher education.
    
    " Whoever Ruth is could raise many valid concerns, but the solutions many were subjected to in ATI are NOT the answer to these valid concerns." I agree. If it is Ruth or BG himself, of course they have valid concerns. How else would they sound reasonable? How could BG ever get so many followers? Got to have some truth to mix in with the Kool-aid. But BG did not have the solutions. I could not agree more!
    
    "That said, I watched Watter's World last night and was astounded..." I also would be astounded except I have read so much about it. I am now very opinionated in my old age, and think I am correct! I might also recommend 4 books. Education, like so many things, is sometimes hard to talk about dispassionately.
    
    1) Education: Free & Compulsory by Murray N. Rothbard
    
    2) Is Public Education Necessary? by Samuel L. Blumenfeld
    
    3) The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto
    
    4) How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods Jr
    
    While I have not read all 4 books, these are some of my favorite authors. The other thing I would do to clarify the points you are making LynnCD (to be clear, I agree with your comment) is that I would draw a sharp distinction between compulsory government schools (and government funded colleges) and private schools and colleges. Very big difference, in my mind.
    
    I hope it is OK to talk about book 4. This is a link to an article 10 years ago.
    
    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods40.html
    
    First paragraph: "Today is the official release date for my new book, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization. From the role of the monks (they did much more than just copy manuscripts) to art and architecture, from the university to Western law, from science to charitable work, from international law to economics, the book delves into just how indebted we are as a civilization to the Catholic Church, whether we realize it or not."
    
    Thanks LynnCD for the comment. Your last line, "...the ATI I was looking at years ago was not the solution to this mess." is so true for me.
    - LynnCD January 31, 2015
      
      Thanks for the reading recommendations, GuyS.
  - GuyS January 30, 2015 Reply
    
    At the risk of getting too far off topic, reading over my comment, I was not clear. Even though there are good people in the compulsory government schools (and colleges), with it's tenured/protected unaccountability, I think it is a very bad system, with very bad predictable results. Can God work there? Of course. Both my parents retired from teaching.
    
    I agree with Myron Horst (first comment): "At some point the massive debt spending by our governments, and industry will have to come to an end."
    
    Indeed.
    - Nancy2 January 30, 2015
      
      I had no problem with my child attending public schools. It helped him understand his mission field. He still held firm to his faith while he saw clearly the deception being taught in some secular disciplines. He was fortunate to have amazing Christian teachers in public school. His English teacher helped students learned critical thinking to combat subjects that might cause them to question or weaken their faith. She wisely used questions to help them have those discovery moments that could easily be used by the Holy Spirit to reaffirm the life in Christ they knew.
      
      My child went to a Christian university for undergraduate degrees and a secular university for his graduate degrees. Once in graduate school the subjects become very specialized and unless one is looking at a humanities degree one's worldview doesn't present a huge problem. My child has presented papers with a strong Conservative Christian perspective and has been given top scores although the professor doesn't agree with his POV.
      
      I know not all public schools are the same. And I know with Common Core our children are being taught in a way that limits a parents participation in their child's education. But parents need to push back and stay actively involved. They also need to educate themselves so they can intelligently answer their child's questions.
      
      For my family it is all about open dialog and respect in how we treat each other. We trust God to love each of us more than we love each other. We try not to stand in the Holy Spirit's way as He moves each of us through the conviction He brings. It is wonderful to rest knowing He is able to do far more in moving my child's heart than I will ever be able to do.
    - Leslie January 31, 2015
      
      All six of our children went to Christian and public schools. Out of all of them our youngest spent her last 5 years in public school. She is the most well adjusted of the bunch. She viewed the school as a mission field and was a great influence. After much discussion and a lot of tears she and her Dad decided on a state college. I wanted Azusa Pacific and was overruled. She went on to become the chaplain of her sorority as well as the philanthropic chair. The others who graduated from Christian school. Well, not so good. Judgemental, isolating themselves. Even far worse for IBLP daughter.in fact things are very bad for her. Things have come to a head in the months revealing a very ugly lifestyle. Bottom line. I wish we had enrolled all our kids in public schools and had more enriching evenings and weekends with them. We regret taking the older 5 to the seminars.
    - Nancy2 January 31, 2015
      
      Leslie, I think part of the advantage is parents and their children understand their faith will be questioned in a public school. Answers are sought before problems arise in preparation of questions developing. It becomes living the verse 1 Corinthians 16:13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love.
    - Leslie January 31, 2015
      
      Nancy2'
      It is also knowing what you believe and why, and not just spouting off Bible verses. Faith challenged makes faith stronger.
    - Nancy2 February 1, 2015
      
      "Faith challenged makes faith stronger."
      
      Absolutely!
      
      Our "know what you believe and why" lessons started with Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living." We encouraged questions and questioning authority. Questioning isn't rebellion. It is simply a pathway to discovery, True authority (Jesus) stands under examination. I believe He invites our questions concerning Him. He wants us to truly know Him.
Rachel January 27, 2015 Reply

Does anyone remember the BG quote "God pays for what He orders!" in relation to large families? He and a bunch of other men with college degrees dictated to an entire generation of young ATI men and women that they were to obey God and have large families, and support said families with character and apprenticeship. College was forbidden. I've been out of ATI for years-- maybe they have changed their stance since then. No college degree or the resulting jobs, and the benefits that would have been included. Hence, a group of adults with great work ethics and good character, working menial tasks and hard physical labor with little or no benefits, and getting a degree now would put their families in hardship.
- GuyS January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Rachel, I remember that. BG had lots of stories how the windows of heaven opened (my words) when couples stopped sinning and just saw things BG's way (lots of kids.) The rest of your analysis I agree with and is also how I remember it.
rob war January 27, 2015 Reply

Bill seemed to base his education ideas on a 18th Century society which was more agrarian and crafts based and where internships under a master was the norm. But this is the 21st Century and no longer that type of society and Bill is living a a fantasy world unto himself. Too many that should have known better went along with this. If he is so against higher education, why did he start his seminars at Wheaton college? Why does he accept support from BJU? Why did he go on for a PhD from another Christian University. All one has to do is look at the older Duggar children and watch them flounder in what they are going to do with their lives besides live them out on TV? Higher education should be seen as an opportunity to develop and pursue one's talents and abilities. Isn't that what the parable of the talents was about? Not hiding them under something out of fear but investing and working on the gifts God has given someone to serve others and further His kingdom? This type of stunted thinking which results in stunted lives of too many isn't God's idea at all but the devil's.
- LInn January 31, 2015 Reply
  
  From the mid-80s to the early 90s I was an overseas missionary. I am also trained as a teacher, with a masters degree in education. When I came home, I was appalled to watch families (some Gothard, some not) trying to homeschool their kids and refusing to let their teens consider college. I know of some who deliberately rebelled and left home so they could make something of themselves.
  
  Homeschooling can work when done well. There are several friends of mine who have done an excellent job of homeschooling their children, but their homes did not function as closed systems unto themselves. Public school or private school are excellent options, too. The most important aspect is that parents know their children, make choices that are appropriate for them based on their resources and incomes, pray much, and proceed. Parents always need to be thinking how their children will be equipped to support themselves as adults, as well as live fulfilling lives. And, unlike the example of some families, educational opportunities need to be applied equally to girls as to boys. As a single, never-married woman, I have always been thankful that I can support myself.
  
  For those who write in the comments that their education was short-changed, it is never too late to go back! I have known, and personally coached, adults who have gone back to get a GED, an AA degree, or even on to university. I believe that God puts dreams in our hearts and He will help us fulfill them according to His perfect will.
  - Leslie February 1, 2015 Reply
    
    Linn,
    
    Thanks for your comments. My husband and I are grandparents, yet we take several continuing education classes each year and add enrichment classes. We believe in lifetime learning, and encourage our kids and grandkids to do likewise.
Ruth January 27, 2015 Reply

Again, change seems to be what Recovering Grace wants... and at least with college, it is indeed more acceptable than it was in ATI in the early years... so why not applaud that change?
- GuyS January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, I am going to foolishly try again. Did you not read what Daniel wrote today?
  
  "Ruth, imagine I'm eating fried chicken at a buffet, then the owner suddenly realizes that it is all bad chicken, but doesn't tell me. Am I going to be grateful that he started putting a few pieces of good chicken on the pile of bad chicken?"
  
  If you would have taken my advice and responded to Daniel, instead of asking more questions, you might remember.There seems to never be any admission of wrong doing with BG. He just goes from one change to another, and you want us to cheer?
  
  Again Ruth, you want answers from us, (and many have responded to you and given answers) but you do not seem to have the same standard in responding to us. It is what we all struggle with, 2 standards. It is your reputation.
- Lindsey January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  It is very rude not to even acknowledge the many thoughtful posts people wrote to you. I think you are a troll, but I thought I would alert you to your bad manners in case you are not.
  - MatthewS January 27, 2015 Reply
    
    It's sad. You always wish someone like Ruth would talk with rather than talk at.
  - Lindsey January 28, 2015 Reply
    
    MatthewS,
    Last night, I did some reading online about Internet trolls. I read that some people are unintentional trolls. If you politely point out their rudeness, they apologize and try to do better.
    
    However, some people do not listen to advice. They barrel on like bulls in a china shop. Those are real trolls and should be ignored. It is very hard to ignore trolls, though!
    - MatthewS January 28, 2015
      
      Yeah, I agree. Well said. And it is often hard to ignore. I often have to tell myself DNFTT (do not feed the troll). And sometimes I even listen to myself, ha!
      
      It's hard because you want to reach out with gentleness and respect to those who disagree. I know that in my own experience, I myself have sometimes been at my rudest and most abrasive right before something broke free and I changed my mind. The more secure a person's position, usually the less defensive they need to feel about it. So it follows that a person on the brink of a major mind-change might charge in here all wound up and try to pick a fight in a glorious last stand.
      
      At least that's a theory that I like. But the vast majority of the time, the template for the defenders of Bill is that they charge in with righteous indignation, drop off a handful of comments, pick a few fights, and question people's motives without ever actually engaging in dialog. When pressed to do better, many of them evaporate back into the ether as suddenly as they had appeared.
    - Don Rubottom February 9, 2015
      
      Matthew, YOU want to reach out with gentleness and respect. I tend to want to beat them over the head with a 2 by 4 of truth. May God forgive me.
    - Elizabeth D February 9, 2015
      
      *us. :)
    - rob war February 9, 2015
      
      The supports of Bill that come on here, cause a ruckus, upset people then blow on remind me of dialogs with Muslims on other forums. Basically there isn't any dialog, it is my way or the high way. This could be due to a couple of things. One, the theology and thinking is so far gone that supporters basically can't dialog on what and why they believe and why they support and two, Gothardism doesn't lend itself or it's followers to dialog. I think the weakness I've seen here is that people like Ruth know how to push people's emotional buttons. Alfred did that very well in his interactions here. I think he actually enjoyed it. It is very hard to step out of emotions when one's life has been screwed up by this teaching.
- "Emee" January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, why are you so fixated on 'change'? Putting makeup on a decaying corpse, while perhaps improving its appearance and definitely a 'change', doesn't make it smell any less or provide much reason for praise.
  
  Similarly, I can't really celebrate any alleged improvement in ATI/IBLP's educational views while they refuse to correct the more egregious errors of theology and forsake justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Matt. 23:23
  
  Finally, as has already been mentioned quite kindly, it's very rude to ignore responses to your comments as well as all questions asked of you.
- MatthewS January 27, 2015 Reply
  
  Just for the sake of conversation, it's not merely any small change that is called for. When serious wrongs have been committed, repentance is needed. Thin changes made without repentance are no better than Saul clutching on to the hem of Samuel's robe in a desperate effort to publicly save face.
  - rob war January 28, 2015 Reply
    
    one can't uncorrupt a corrupted system. My other thought is what could have fueled Bill's anti-college stance is that those that have been his earliest critics and calls for accountability came from seminarian professors with concerns about his use of the Bible. Instead of trying to answer them or even reexamine himself, Bill took the "all colleges are bad and corrupted route" which now include seminary professors that were his first critics.
  - Lindsey January 28, 2015 Reply
    
    I agree. Thinking about this thread tonight, I realized that Ruth's question reminds me of the letters I have been reading on cryingoutforjustice.com. On that website, they take letters from abusers and interpret them line by line, exposing their confusing, tricky tactics, which are meant to discombobulate the targets of their abuse. It has been very helpful for me.
    
    This is probably why I assumed Ruth might be a troll. Even if Ruth is not a troll, her question is framed in a very deceptive way, as if attempting to snare us in a trap.
    
    1. RG is for change. (Since this is a simple, true statement, it seems innocuous. However, it leaves out a lot of details. To be accurate, RG wants sweeping change. If I understand correctly, RG wants true repentance, disqualification of BG and an immediate cessation of abusive activities.)
    
    2. ATI slightly improved in one area. (ATI still undermines the livelihoods and survival of its followers but to a slightly lesser degree. Of course, undermining followers at all is appalling, but we won't focus on that. Also, we won't mention the countless other areas needing improvement.)
    
    3. ATI's small improvement in one area qualifies as a "change." (Technically speaking. According to Webster's dictionary. Isolated from context, this statement seems harmless.)
    
    4. Therefore, if RG wants change and ATI made a change, RG must applaud ATI's change. This logic will be pressed on RG as a Yes/No, Black/White question. People will be snared in a logical trap. They will be forced to concede a point or praise ATI or admit they are wrong, etc.
    
    This does not make sense. A (somewhat) less derisive view of higher education from ATI barely scratches the surface of what RG is all about.
    
    This is like an abuser saying, "Well, I didn't abuse my target last Tuesday. I was nice to them that day. Don't I get credit for that 'progress'? After all, you want the target to be less abused, so aren't you happy about that?" Um no, you do not get a shiny star for that "progress." I demand true repentance and zero abuse of the target, and by the way, it is perfectly reasonable for me to demand that. It is well within your abilities, and the target does not deserve abuse.
    - MatthewS January 28, 2015
      
      Great analysis
    - GuyS January 28, 2015
      
      Lindsey, I like you explanation. Your contribution helps clear up what is really going on. Your last line, "It is well within your abilities, and the target does not deserve abuse" is a great summary of the main issues.
    - Lindsey January 29, 2015
      
      Thank you, guys!
- Julia Fetters January 28, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, there is enough wrong with ATI/IBLP in the way of theology, character, and fruit that has grown from it, that for you to continue to point to 'change' in this one area should be embarrassing.
  One tiny little change in a sea of wrong. And that change not even addressed to those who were led wrong.
  Just a thought. Thank you to all who comment and keep the conversation going. Thank you for your kind hearts.
rob war January 28, 2015 Reply

Bill's seminars and ministry was geared to teenagers and young adults. That is the least experienced and least educated group. I think most all posters agree that he was selling snake oil and heretical teaching. Probably to avoid having a closer look at what he was teaching, he cleverly built into his body of teaching that higher education was corrupted, evil, bad for you etc. The gullible that attended bought into this lie and coverup and didn't further educate themselves. The calls for concern about Bill's teaching came from seminarian professors and a hand full of pastors, those this know how and education. At least that is how I see this whole things now. My liberal Protestant nominal Christian parents had always instilled in me the importance of higher education and I did go off to college, live on my own etc. I think that is what saved me from going down the path that too many on this site ended up at, being an ATI parent and family. The exposure to other Christian ideas and teaching was the inoculation for me against the narrow world of Bill Gothard. That is why I think this discussion about Bill's anti-higher education is so important because it would have been higher education that exposes Bill for the fraud and heretic that he is.
rob war January 28, 2015 Reply

I also think that is why Bill Gothard poured himself into the homeschooling movement which became another form of control over people's lives to follow him and not question it at all. He took a valid way to educate one's children's and perverted it into an enclosed womb to the tomb system that became a cancer on people's lives and families and on the body of Christ. Exposure and light of truth are going to stop this from spreading further.
Ruth January 29, 2015 Reply

I guess i am misunderstanding... change for Recovering Grace is more than tweaking IBLP/Ati... help me understand what you all want to have real change,Recovering Grace. What does Recovering Grace think should happen to all publications, real estate, the organization itself? Revision, or cessation?
- MatthewS January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, you are back with more challenges to the crowd. Interesting. Question: how deeply have you read here? Do you find any points of agreement with RG's case that Bill has disqualified himself from the ministry? Have you found any points that you can relate to in people's stories? Or conversely, do you find that the stories here do not match your experience at all?
  - GuyS January 29, 2015 Reply
    
    MatthewW, Ha! I hope she give you some clear answers, but don't hold your breath.
    
    "The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"
    
    At least the wicked chief priests and the elders of the people had the decency to acknowledge they heard the question by answering, "We cannot tell."
    
    I will be shocked if she can bring herself to be that polite.
- Elizabeth D January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth = William Gothard, Jr. Can it be any clearer?
  - GuyS January 29, 2015 Reply
    
    Elizabeth D. I trust you that this is not, "you know who." It is so creepy similar/same.
    
    "I guess i am misunderstanding... "
    "... help me understand"
    
    Seems like I have read those exact quotes, complete with the 3 dots. Probably just 40 years of influence. No need to give away your secrets on how you know the difference. (they might read it and change their style!!!) I just like putting in my .02. I defer to your expertise :-)
    - Elizabeth D January 29, 2015
      
      Guy - there are style differences that are consistent with my suspicions that I won't divulge here. :) But look at what "Ruth" is saying, the questions "she's" honestly asking. It's about the minimum requirements needed to restore Bill Gothard's god, which is the fake Bill Gothard - his own public image. He's in a tailspin and honestly doesn't know what to do to ramp up damage control, so he's prowling around here as "Ruth" to try to find out - "what do y'all want from me that will restore the image I've worked so long and hard to create and maintain?" Look at the question on the other thread - "If I 'reconcile' with people that I've supposedly hurt, will the Venoits and Henzel retract their damning accounts of what I've done so we can just say I've been unjustly character-assassinated and all go home?" It doesn't even make logical sense for the reason I stated there - if he goes to a few higher-profile victims and "reconciles" (nevermind that short of his own reconciliation with God, he doesn't know how in the first place), then how would that constitute grounds for a retraction of past accounts?? This is not a pattern of thought of an outsider, but of one personally vested. And not just an Alfred-type supporter. Nowhere was this more obvious than in asking what "should happen to" the organization, its publications, and the real estate.
      
      "Ruth" also minimizes offenses, like trying to disown and downplay the damage done by BG's insistence that higher education was evil, and the like. "It's no big deal - look at this obsure example - why are you complaining about Bill?" Some of it's Alfred-like, but it goes deeper and gets more personal.
      
      Bill needs Jesus, plain and simple, just as my husband does, in spite of going through extensive motions to give others the impression of godliness. The images have been maintained at all costs, and the costs have been extremely high for both men. (My husband's world has just recently imploded.) Jesus loves them, but He loves the REAL them - the UNworthy them - not the "worthy" images.
    - GuyS January 29, 2015
      
      Elizabeth D, Wow! Again, I defer to you expertise. I hope I never forget my place, and think I can "get one past you" :-) One of the cool things about RG is the collective wisdom and discernment. For years I have been at a lose as to how I should have talked to the many narcissist in my life. After reading and processing here, I have some resolution. I did the best I could in my clueless state. Thanks for the clues.
- Elizabeth D January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  That said, I think I speak for most of us here when I say that it's not about the real estate, Bill. It's not about IBLP or books or intellectual property. It's not even about who did what to who when or where.
  
  It's about what Nancy's describing - reconciliation. Not with the people you've offended, but with the God of the universe who loves you beyond what you can imagine or ever deserve. It's all about newness that comes from brokenness and empty hands at the feet of Jesus.
  
  Jesus loves you, Bill. I don't know how or why, but He loves you. He wants you to love Him, too. That's all. In blue jeans or a blue suit or a tie-dye t-shirt and blue shorts. He's not looking for your "best;" he's just looking for your hurting, broken heart. You are worth so much to him. Not because of IBLP or your teaching. Not because you read and memorize the Bible. Not because you "behave" (which you don't; you've just tried miserably to hide the misbehavior). Your worth to Him has nothing to do with you, but the price He was willing to pay for you to be free from the law.
  
  God does want to give you His "best," but it has nothing to do with you doing anything for Him. You've never experienced His best. If you're honest with yourself, you know that you don't have the peace that surpasses human understanding in your heart. To be at peace with God is His best. And what do the scriptures say? Jesus is our peace. You love God's word, but you've missed the whole point of God's word in that it points us to Jesus. God's best is Jesus - first, last, and completely.
  
  Your life and your "ministry" is in shambles. Your story is tragic up to this point - don't even try to deny it. How it'll end depends not on what you do, but on what you either allow or disallow God to do for you.
  
  Meditate on this tonight and all day tomorrow and however long it takes to believe it - "Jesus loves me." Nothing else. Because nothing else needs to matter to you right now until you realize that and accept it with no strings attached.
  
  I think I speak for most of us here when I say that the day you are truly broken and empty-handed before Jesus, the Lord of lords, is the day that you will finally understand why people are hurt, angry, and offended. You won't have to ask anybody what they want from you any more. And you'll know what to do with all the red notebooks.
  
  Jesus loves you, Bill.
- Mark R January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  At the risk of being accused of troll-feeding, I will answer your questions.
  
  1. RG (in general) would prefer that Bill Gothard specifically confess to the sins which he has committed and for which proof has been provided here and in other places.
  2. RG (in general) then would prefer that Mr. Gothard permanently resign from any and all leadership and ministry positions, not only within IBLP but within any other ministry that he may have started and/or in which he serves (to include returning his ministry credentials to La Grange Bible Church and/or any other church and/or organization which may also have credentialed him), and never to serve in such a capacity again. His sins are too great, and the damage to the Body of Christ too severe, to allow him to simply "step away for a time", and definitely not to allow him to decide when he has "sufficiently repented" so as to be restored.
  3. RG (in general) would then prefer that IBLP renounce publicly all doctrines, teachings, and practices that do not square with beliefs held generally by orthodox Christianity (including but not limited to his views that grace is earned, that ceremonial Mosaic Law is binding upon Christians, that courtship is the only Biblically-mandated method whereby young people can establish a romantic relationship ultimately leading to marriage, etc.) If that means that IBLP has to permanently cease operations, so be it.
  
  But it is very clear that Gothard, though "removed" from IBLP, will not repent of his sins despite the overwhelming evidence of his guilt. In fact he has reappeared with a "new" ministry, curiously using many of the same documents that have appeared in IBLP literature in the past (causing one to wonder if IBLP is perpetuating a "shell game" to reorganize under a new name but with Gothard once again as its head). As Gothard refuses to repent, and IBLP refuses to acknowledge its role in everything (even going so far as to have current Board members inform someone that "they don't want to get involved"), RG has no choice but to claim its spot on the World Wide Web and inform the public at large (Christians and non-Christians alike) of the dangers of IBLP and Gothard.
  
  If that ultimately brings down IBLP as a going concern, then so be it.
  - David January 30, 2015 Reply
    
    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/10/12/bill-gothards-new-programministry-total-success-power-teams/
    
    Bill Gothard's new ministry. Read the article. Same old Bill. Same old lies. We ought to thank Bill for proving to everyone -- as if we needed it -- that there isn't a shred of repentance in him. And, I might add, if Gothard was deemed disqualified and unfit for leadership at IBLP, why does he feel free to do this? My guess is that he will simply call it something other than leadership.
    
    God does not want IBLP to change. He wants it gone. It was never of Him to begin with. Until people see that fact, the rest of the discussion is limited.
    - Mark R February 2, 2015
      
      I can't say that God doesn't want IBLP to change and to renounce its errors.
      
      But at this point, given all that has transpired, I don't think that will happen. BG may be gone (given that he has resurfaced using a new name, it looks more like a shell game, and the references to Oz and the Emerald City are more real than before) but he surely hasn't repented. The Spirit will not always strive with man, and we may be seeing just that with BG--he will not repent, because it is possible that he cannot repent, since he has refused correction for so long.
  - MatthewS January 31, 2015 Reply
    
    Good stuff, Mark R.
    
    I see so many similarities between Bill and other con-men and bullies. Lance Armstrong is one example. At least Lance finally came out and admitted he had doped, but prior to that admission he attacked people and damaged their careers when they tried to tell the truth. Even just with your item #1, Bill continues to spin the line that he is being falsely accused, misunderstood, attacked, persecuted. He still does not acknowledge that he did those things, and that he was wrong and he knew it. Let alone, admit to other things that he has not been directly accused of or offered proof for.
    
    This pattern of only admitting to what one has to, and then offering an excuse to explain away - that is Saul, not David, it is Pharisees, not Zacchaeus. It is not repentance. I know that instinct all too well, for it is a human one. I would have the same response if I were in his shoes, unless and until God's intense love and grace finally broke through my walls and convinced my soul that the safest place to be is in his love and light, not my own self-protected darkness.
  - GuyS January 31, 2015 Reply
    
    MatthewS not W, "the safest place to be is in his love and light, not my own self-protected darkness." I like this a lot.
  - GuyS January 31, 2015 Reply
    
    MatthewS. I do not know if you have seen the recent interview on youtube.
    
    title, "Lance Armstrong: 'I'd probably cheat again'"
    
    Disgraced former cyclist Lance Armstrong has admitted he'd "probably" cheat again if taken back to the tarnished era of the 1990's. In his first TV interview since his confession, the American told the BBC he was keen to have his life ban lifted.
    - MatthewS January 31, 2015
      
      I did happen to see that. It was linked through a blog I occasionally check. I believe him. It was all about winning, and to win in that time, he'd have to dope. I could actually have some sympathy on his position, except for the ruthless way he treated people who told the truth. Back when people were still debating whether or not Lance had cheated, this article was the nail in the coffin for me: http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html
      
      I guess it's a step forward that at least he's telling the truth now. I imagine there are some people out there who wish they could recover some of the damages they incurred along the way. I would be so much more impressed with Lance if he would step up and acknowledge that part as well. And the parallel to Bill Gothard is that he is still not confessing that he did it, so he's way behind Lance on this one.
- rob war January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  I believe the word isn't change but justice and accountability. I think some of that has started to happen with his removal from leadership. Dismantling the ministry would be the next step which means selling off property to repay the women that have been harmed by Bill and even Steve. The only change one can bring to heretical teaching is to renounce it and leave it. That should answer your misunderstanding Ruth.
- David February 3, 2015 Reply
  
  Cessation. It should be completed disbanded -- confessed as based on error -- and proceeds given to charity. Period.
- Don Rubottom February 9, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, I would like for the IBLP Board to humbly submit ALL the teaching materials and videos to Dallas Seminary, Westminster Seminary, Southwestern Seminary, Southern Baptist Seminary, Trinity Seminary and Fuller Seminary, asking them to critique all materials and teachings and offer correction as needed. Then, I would like IBLP to acknowledge all its discovered theological errors, recant, withdraw all erroneous materials from the market and offer ATI parents some partial refund for selling false teaching. (Some of us might actually forgive the debt, so maybe all assets would not be lost making things right.)
  Next, I would like the Board to carefully consider what remains, if anything, of the organization's teaching and decide whether to liquidate or refocus on some mission that the Spirit may bring to light during such a humbling process.
  It also might be beneficial to the Gospel to write all foreign leaders formerly solicited by B.G. and explain his failings and offer apology on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ for involving them in foolish notions.
  But I am just one disappointed defrauded ATI dad looking for works in keeping with repentance. I am not "RG", so you might not care about my opinion.
Nancy2 January 29, 2015 Reply

I look at who I am as a part of fallen humanity and think about Ruth's questions concerning "change". I came to the conclusion long ago that me changing myself could never reconcile me to my Heavenly Father. All the improvements that might be possible in my conduct would never stop the struggle created by my fallen nature.

I didn't need a change here and a change there, tweaking per se. I needed to become a new creature in Christ Jesus. The old me needed to be buried with Him and raised new in Him. I needed the newness that can only come though the redemptive work of Jesus.

The whole structure of ATI/IBLP is wrong in that it focuses on "If you will follow these principles God will bless you." I did not come to the Lord looking for blessings. I don't need a blessing machine. I came desiring to by reconciled to my Heavenly Father. I want to know the One who has invited me to sit at His feet.
- kevin January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  Very well put Nancy.
- Rachel January 29, 2015 Reply
  
  Thank you, Nancy2-- so beautiful, and it's what really matters for each of us!
Chris January 29, 2015 Reply

Great article! My husband and I have many regrets and we were raised in the "perfect courtship". We went my that perfect courtship to having babies. We never got a chance to enjoy each other just ourselves. And we have struggled financially because of never have that foundation along with minimal education. We desperately love our children but we wish better for all of us as I think it would have spared us many hurtful hardships both within our finances and our marriage. We are a very happy family now and manage to pay the bills somehow, but why is it so hard and so wrong to want more than to just survive?

I also relate to the relationships regrets. After I was pulled from our church youth program in high school I lost that desire to really get close to others. I guess I feed myself the lie that it just isn't worth it because they will either hurt you or end up leaving your life anyway.
Leslie January 29, 2015 Reply

As far as I can see ATI/ILBP is close to being on life support and does not need artificial life saving measures, CPR or resurrection. The pain it has brought to so many should allow it to just die.
Betty January 30, 2015 Reply

ALERT. VERITY. IN THE GAP. WIT. (What am I forgetting.) I have dear friends in these programs. But nontheless. These programs have/are feeding off the main engine. Justice. Mercy. Humility. (Micah 6:8)
Betty January 30, 2015 Reply

What I meant above is that all those progams must die together.
- Nancy2 January 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Betty, this morning my Bible Study was on Jesus cleansing the Temple. The question was asked, "In todays nice polite world which money changers table would cause you grief to see turned over?" Then it stated, "We should rejoice in all the work of Jesus. If He flips it upside down and reveals it's nature as being not of Him we should be thankful of His ever present protection. We should be thankful for salvation His way."
  
  So many caught in these BG groups do not know they are clinging to the money changers tables.
  - Betty January 30, 2015 Reply
    
    Yes. Money changing tables. God is so very Faithful. If we will allow Him to show Himself strong, we don't need the "$ table." Interesting. Thank you. Will ponder. Pray for them. And myself. Frustrated with them.
    - Nancy2 January 30, 2015
      
      Of course I pray for them. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, as are you.
Linda January 30, 2015 Reply

If I was "Ruth", I'd be denying all the implications that I was BG or Alfred. "Her" silence on this is quite telling. I actually think Ruth is a clever nickname for Ruthless.
- Elizabeth D January 30, 2015 Reply
  
  I agree, Linda. I thought "Anne" would put up a fight, too, but she vanished as mysteriously as she came.
horse January 30, 2015 Reply

Has this article been posted here before? Sorry if it's a repeat. It's worth a read as it is written from the perspective of a homeschool parent who is calling out the mistakes that lead to regret.

http://www.familyministries.com/HS_Crisis.htm
- Lindsey January 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Reading this article brought tears to my eyes and filled me with great sadness. I believe my primary motivator on this site is to try to understand my parents. I want to empathize with them and explain rationally to myself why things happened the way they did. I was not homeschooled, but my parents were/are extremely strict and conservative. I am more or less estranged from them. I want there to be a good reason why my sister and I suffered/suffer so much.
  
  Unfortunately, I haven't made much headway in understanding them. Relating to the article, how can parents treat their kids as non-persons? Would the parents say they were also non-persons when they were young?
  
  I'm afraid I don't understand the mindset of the author at all. In theory, I can comprehend it and recognize much of it from my childhood, but I can't really identify with it. My predominant feeling is a feeling of gratitude that I survived and have the power as an adult to avoid people with these attitudes.
  
  Due to my personal circumstances, I wish I had detected more sorrow from the author.
  
  Thank you for sharing the article.
- GuyS January 31, 2015 Reply
  
  Lindsey, I also read the article and had a similar reaction. From reading your earlier posts, my guess is that our experience with our dad's might be close. I hope it is OK to tell you what I wish someone would have told me years ago. (my dad died a few years ago at 90)
  
  Anyway, I wish someone would have told me that no matter how hard I tried, there might not be much resolution with my dad. Even with all my incredible effort, I might not get the results I was looking for. Instead, I might want to consider doing a few practical things like washing his car with him, or going to a ball game with him, so I might have some good memories then and after he died. It might do him good also. Alas, no one gave such advise. I might not have taken it anyway, because I was under the false idea that everything would just be peachy if I would simply honor my dad more.
  
  I now wish this advice would have happened, because of a conversation I had with a brother last week. My brother told a story of a road trip he and dad had when my brother was 18, the summer he graduated from HS. They were gone about a week and visited friends of my dad's who he had not seen for 30 years. It was a long story and when my brother finished, he said he wished he had more memories like that with my dad. The next day we talked and I admitted I had no memories like that but I wish I had.
  
  In my case, for me to have done things with my dad, I would have had to be the mature one, the parent if you will. He had no interest in normal stuff. I was a non-person who needed to be shaped like clay. I never did measure up. I should have planed some fun activities, and when he refused (and he would) and he continued the abusive pattern, I should have just graciously walked out the door. Try again the next week. At some point, he might have allowed himself to set aside the false responsibility madness he felt was his duty to impose on me and just be with me and have fun or do some job together. He was not mature enough to come up with this on his own.
  
  I am not sure I will ever really understand why my dad was the way he was. My brother and I sometimes spend hours talking about this. He came from a real messed up family and lots of pain with lots of no talk rules. He was a very smart bitter angry man who won every argument, and there were lots of arguments he started.
  
  I hope there is some peace and resolution for you.
  - Lindsey January 31, 2015 Reply
    
    GuyS,
    Thank you very much for your response. It is definitely OK for you to tell me what you wish someone had told you.
    
    I have been thinking about your reply all day. It may be that I will never understand my parents. Perhaps that is just the way it is. After all, there are many people who do terrible things I don't understand. It is just more difficult for one of them to be my parent.
    
    "He was a very smart bitter angry man who won every argument, and there were lots of arguments he started." Sounds exactly like my dad!
    
    I always pay attention to your comments not only because you had a difficult father, but you have been a parent yourself. I find that insight to be very valuable.
    
    You don't have to answer this, but I am curious. Do you think being raised by your father influenced you to get involved with BG?
    
    "I was a non-person who needed to be shaped like clay." Thank you for sharing this. It is very helpful.
  - GuyS February 1, 2015 Reply
    
    Lindsey,
    
    Yes, the way I was raised by my dad influenced me to get involved with BG. It was not obvious to me. My dad's Church of Christ doctrine (emphasis on taking the Lord's Supper every week, premillennial second coming, water baptism and so on) was so different then BG's doctrine. However, the heavy handed authority was the same. The elitism, "I am going to heaven and you poor slob will probably burn in Hades" was the same. So naturally BG felt normal. It is a little bit of a stretch, but one could say that for my first 25 years I was groomed and prepared to drink BG's Kool-aid. I am still responsible, of course.
    
    So, you might think that with all my struggles, I would know how to raise my kids. Nope. However,I did the best I could. It would be nice if they all could read Don's 3rd comment on this thread: "Children, these were your parents' mistakes. But they were doomed to make mistakes. They are sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. You will make mistakes as well. Have compassion. They meant well. Those who were truly unloving and selfish would have been unloving and selfish without Bill Gothard to enable them."
    
    It might be presumptuous for me to say this, but this is what I would say to my daughter: Don't be too hard on yourself about not having the understanding and answers that you would like at this time. I think there are only a small percentage of people who have the wisdom to have listed your line by line insights on Ruth's deceptive question. Sometimes, it is hard to be objective about your own growth and healing. Who knows what God is preparing you for as you walk with Him?
    - Lindsey February 2, 2015
      
      GuyS,
      I would say this is the best response and the best advice I have ever received on this issue. I am going to save it in my journal. Thank you very much.
    - GuyS February 2, 2015
      
      No problem, happy to share. Never had my advise in a journal b/4. Must now soak my head, to reduce the size :-)
rob war January 31, 2015 Reply

I think the education regret has been covered very well here. One of the regrets not covered and it kinda is a surprise is sports participation. Bill's anti-sports and demeaning emphasis is amazing considering the fact that sports participation for children is generally so positive and so many real life lessons are learned and developed in participation. Likewise, some children have natural God given athletic abilities that to not participate in youth sports almost seems wrong and even evil. Not all children are meant to play a musical instrument. Maybe it hard to regret something one hasn't be able to do to know what is missed.
- Julia Fetters January 31, 2015 Reply
  
  Very good point, Rob. We are a family of athletes. Even to this day with my husband being 55, I am 52, and our older children are 25-30. We are athletes and always will be. We are not contributing to the pandemic of obesity in our country. Their Dad is a great athlete. It came through in their DNA and in their environment.
  
  So, how did 11+ years in ATI - all the formative years of our 4 oldest - affect this in our family? It just made me feel like we were a lesser family. A bit more worldly than all of the "Orchestra families". Our oldest son had to push a bit harder to be let in the sports he wanted to be in because I was busy being "submissive" (ie. pushing to get my way behind the scenes... Just ask an ATI wife/Mom about that one.) Oh to do it over...
  
  Our children are all very, very smart and they like their sports. I find them to be well rounded. I am glad God made us who we are as a family. I hate that we ever entered ATI.
  
  Any ex-ATI/IBLP parents who would like good conversation on subject go to ATI Parent Recovery Group on FB. It has been a great help to me:)
- Tangent February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  Yes, sports... How I wish I had taken my children to learn to swim, put them in soccer leagues, horseback lessons, ect. I enjoyed these activities in my yout, yet we gave all that up to be "perfect ATIA Christians"
  - rob war February 2, 2015 Reply
    
    I think it is curious that some children's acitivities were deamed ok or even spiritual like music lessons yet others such as sports were deamed worldly. In comparison to music lesson, are most children going to become professional musicians? No, it would be the same rate as in sports. Considering Bill very restrictive views on what types of music were ok, I'm not sure what music anyone could study to begin with. Earlier, some posters brougth up Lanse Armstrong and his misdeeds and cheating. But is it fair to judge all sports by the sins of a few million dollar atheletes? A majority of sports is non-professional to begin with. The children that have participated in youth sports, usually with one or more parent have usually come out confident, happier, better adjusted etc. In fact, a number of schools encourage their students to participate in at least one sport because usually those students end up with a more satisfied, fuller school experience. I think as with a number of other Bill's ideas that it boils back to his childhood experiences and that either he didn't have a positive sports experience or was unable to with a work-a cholic father never home. I think the sport+worldliness that Bill promoted should be high up on the regret list of ATI children.
    - J.B. February 3, 2015
      
      Rob,
      
      My parents didn't encourage me to pursue sports very much either, at least until we moved out of California and to Texas around the time I started high school. I can see a few factors at play: they gravitated more toward music as an extracurricular activity for me when I was very young, that positioned me as a "music kid" and not so much as a "sports kid" by the time I reached late elementary school age, I had quite an aversion to contact sports in the days that followed, and of course, the influence of IBLP and ATI up until high school helped.
      
      Part of me has to wonder if Gothard's own disdain toward sports has to do with whatever "exposure to the world" would come about from participating in a team. It's yet another result of the focus on verticality (authority structures, chain of command) and the dismissal of horizontality (peer-to-peer relationships) for young people. On top of that, I don't think Gothard was alone in his sentiments either. Back in grade school, I recall reading one of those Mennonite books targeted at homeschoolers designed to teach Scripture application in real life, and one of the little stories focused on the evils of baseball cards, as they "glorified wicked men" as idols."
    - rob war February 3, 2015
      
      Thank-you for sharing JB. I think there are many more stories like yours out there where children are stymy in simple participation. You brought up the authoritarian emphasis which again in sports, part of the life lessons that sports gives which is listening to the authority of the coach. Sports, especially team sports has a definite built in authority in it and those that succeed at it usually learn early to listen and do what the coach wants them to. It is amazing that someone that has as his corner stone, authority would belittle sports which is definitely authoritarian in it's structure, team or individual sports. I've seen well known coaches bypass outward talent to pick the kid that is more willing to listen to the coach and do what he or she wants.
- Joe February 4, 2015 Reply
  
  As the gracious and charming George Mattix loved to quote to the students, "bodily exercise profiteth little".
  - rob war February 4, 2015 Reply
    
    Seriously? and your point is? I think the same can be said about music and art lessons. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and taking care of that body include exercise and even sports. I would stack up all the character life lessons that those that participate in sports gain against sitting at home trying to memorize character qualities from IBLP. The characters qualities that IBLP heavily promoted are learned by being out and participating in activities, not in isolation in the home memorizing Bill's books and games.
    - Joe February 4, 2015
      
      Of course he was serious. The same thing may be said for all manner of things, but not by the apostle Paul. How are we supposed to train a godly army prepared to give the world a new approach to life if they are playing games all the time?
    - rob war February 4, 2015
      
      You are too much fun Joe. do you think the reason that St. Paul used sport analogies in a number of his epistles could be because St. Paul might have been a sports fan and the discipline he saw in atheletic efforts had parallels in our spiritual efforts? His comments about sports wasn't belittling of sports but a demonstration that sports does give a number of things like discipline, sacrifice, practice etc that can transfer over to the spiritual side of life. Your crack about a spiritual army and new approach to life really doesn't pan out does it? Take some time Joe and reread a number of these replies. Do they sound like people ready to be some army for the Lord? Or do they sound like IBLP lead people down a path to broken, unhappy, scared lives that have to be put back together and too many are now having to spend time doing so. You can quote some high honcho in IBLP all you want but the reality is his attitude is so out to left field that it isn't even in the ball park of reality but broken junk yard of lives destroyed by this teaching.
    - MatthewS February 5, 2015
      
      I could be totally missing it, but reading these comments I get the impression that Joe is not expressing his personal beliefs but rather the beliefs that were expressed by a leader at that time.
    - Joe February 5, 2015
      
      It is difficult to convey the correct level of sarcasm and contempt over the internet, especially when the ridiculous statements one is making are the exact truth of what happened, and since these issues are deeply personal and sensitive for many of us. I figured my charitable characterization of the IBLP executive international director would be enough to tip it.
    - rob war February 5, 2015
      
      I wondered about that but if so, I think he would have stated it in quoting George. It came across as agreement with the thinking that activities like sports are a waste of time and detract from important "spiritual" goals and the focus should be on the spiritual, only the spiritual and nothing but the spiritual. I think this goes along with the anti-body or physical bent and that activities that involve the physical are either bad or worldly or unspiritual such as sports. Yet there really isn't a conflict between physical and spiritual activities. I think that is why St. Paul used sport analogies in his letters. Discipline learned in one area can easily be transferred to another. That's where Bill missing the boat and mislead others as well.
    - rob war February 5, 2015
      
      my apologies Joe, it came off as support for this nonsense. my contempt is towards those that support lunacy at its finest.
    - Joe February 5, 2015
      
      No problem, Rob. I shouldn't have doubled down on the sarcasm after the first one was taken seriously. Thanks for your comments. I enjoyed your perspective and agree.
Ruth January 31, 2015 Reply

Lol!!! I am not Bill or Alfred.
- rob war February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  why is that a lol?
- MatthewS February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  I suggest we take "Ruth" at her word that whoever she is, she isn't Bill or Alfred. This site allows anonymity and pseudonyms. It can create unintended consequences if commenters are pushed to prove who they are or aren't.
  - GuyS February 2, 2015 Reply
    
    MatthewS, Thanks. Also, it might be good to remember that if we are not careful, RG can turn into a place that is no fun. RG is means a lot to me, and I know for myself, it is easy for me to take it for granted.
  - Elizabeth D February 2, 2015 Reply
    
    I'm sorry ... my intent wasn't to "prove" anything so much as to provide a viable explanation to the confusion and discord that accompanies a few people that have posted from time to time. What may come across as dissonant from most makes much more sense when you consider that the source may be different than what we're led to believe.
    
    My challenge is to the valid contributors here, not "Ruth."
    - Elizabeth D February 2, 2015
      
      I just realized that my comment could be read with sarcasm. None at all intended. I really do want to help others evaluate who they may be dealing with - not stir up a pot.
    - Nancy2 February 2, 2015
      
      Elizabeth D, I have been in this same spot from time to time. Intent read into a post where none was intended. Often anger is read into a statement where no anger was ever felt revealing further the intensity of the reader who is fearful for BG and IBLP/ATI. A simple observation quickly turns into an accusation.
      
      You have given a lot of encouragement to this community. I appreciate your POV.
    - MatthewS February 2, 2015
      
      Totally makes sense, Elizabeth D. Always good to stay sharp. Also, in the past, the moderators have pointed out when people were using multiple aliases or clearly being deceitful.
Ruth January 31, 2015 Reply

So, according to Recovering Grace, MG is disqualified from not just IBLP, but any leadership role, correct? Interesting it started out just IBLP, but now its any position anywhere.And am i understanding correctly that Recovering Grace believes reconciliation can only take place if MG repents and all the real estate is sold and given to the victims and IBLP is totally dissolved?
- Leslie January 31, 2015 Reply
  
  When there is so much misleading, error and downright lies the only solution is total dissolution.
- P.L. February 1, 2015 Reply
  
  It's hardly "according to Recovering Grace", Ruth. The qualifications for a church leader are clearly stated in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Bill Gothard fails to meet them, miserably. So yes, he is disqualified from leading and teaching the church of God, in any position, anywhere. According to the Bible.
- LynnCD February 1, 2015 Reply
  
  Apparently Bill Gothard is not qualified according to the current IBLP board as well. And given his propensity to abuse young women, including those under 18 years of age, which did not stop until the whistle blowing of the last couple years, I would totally agree with anyone who said he was not fit to be in leadership anywhere, at this point.
- An old sinner saved by Grace February 1, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth,
  
  I think the real questions that determines Bill's qualification, according to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is if he is truly repentant and followed the steps confessing, repenting, asking forgiveness and making restitution I think the real questions that determines Bill's qualification, according to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is if he is truly repentant and followed the steps confessing, repenting, asking forgiveness and making restitution I think the real questions that determines Bill's qualification, according to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is if he is truly repentant and followed the steps confessing, repenting, asking forgiveness and making restitution. (Matthew 5:23-24, Matthew 18)(Restitution does not have to be financial but could be completing an action) Does Bill's repentance come from the heart or is he following steps given to him by others? What does it take to become re-qualified or is it permanent? What examples are in the Bible? Do you know if Bill has admitted that he is not qualified since his resignation? Have you asked him?
  
  Since Bill is now independent from IBLP closing down the ministry would be up to its' Board. That action is totally separate from the bigger issue of Bill's repentance. The latter would go a long way to start the healing process.
  
  An "Old Sinner" saved by Grace
  - An old sinner saved by Grace February 1, 2015 Reply
    
    Sorry I messed up in editing this is what my post is meant to say.
    
    Ruth,
    
    I think the real questions that determines Bill's qualification, according to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is if he is truly repentant and followed the steps confessing, repenting, asking forgiveness and making restitution (Restitution does not have to be financial but could be completing an action). (Matthew 5:23-24, Matthew 18) Does that repentance come from the heart or is he following steps given to him by others? What does it take to become re-qualified or is it permanent? What examples are in the Bible? Do you know if Bill has admitted that he is not qualified since his resignation? Have you asked him?
    
    Since Bill is now independent from IBLP closing down the ministry would be up to its' Board. That action is totally separate from the bigger issue of Bill's qualification and repentance. The latter would go a long way to start the healing process.
    
    An "Old Sinner" saved by Grace
    - Mark R February 2, 2015
      
      That is, of course, if BG truly is "independent" from IBLP. Notwithstanding the IBLP Board "removing" him from power, the article referenced above about his new "ministry" (which appears to heavily use IBLP material and was sent to persons on ATI's email list) calls that into question.
      
      On an unrelated note, it turns out that another Gothard brother, David, is in big trouble with the Florida Attorney General over financial fraud. See this article:
      
      http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/state-sues-naples-businessman-saying-he-bilked-elderly-people-out-of-millions_44739110
    - Diana S. February 3, 2015
      
      Did/does IBLP invest in David's companies?
    - Mark R February 3, 2015
      
      The investigators are having trouble finding out a lot of the details because David G hasn't been responsive to discovery (this is a civil action, not a criminal one).
      
      It would not surprise me that this wasn't a Ponzi scheme whereby IBLP/BG "invested" and were paid the high "returns" while others got scammed. The article mentions that David G previously spent time in Federal prison for tax-related issues.
    - rob war February 3, 2015
      
      I think the article implied that he used his connections and ties with his brother Bill to be convincing to gullible Christians. I'm not sure if David was estranged from Bill or not like he was with Steve. It looked like some kind of Ponzi scheme though.
    - Daniel February 3, 2015
      
      So, all three brothers ended up being really bad dudes. How does one family manage to have so many bad apples? I wonder if it relates back to the glory days of IBLP. Lots of fast cash, power, planes, resorts, applause, single women, fancy buildings, etc. I wonder if that ruined them. David's first legal troubles started around 1986.
    - rob war February 3, 2015
      
      sounds like rock stars. While they would decry the evils of rock music, they ended up living a rock star life style.
    - Daniel February 4, 2015
      
      rob war, you know, I always thought it was funny how Bill dressed just like Johnny Cash, even down to the hair.
      
      I remember when he called everyone with hair parted down the middle to the front of the Counseling Seminar and told them they looked like musk oxen.
      Then he made them all "fix" it and come to the front in the next session.
      
      In counseling textbooks, this is a very productive method called Humiliating Impressionable Kids to Ensure Outward Conformity.
      
      Um, not.
    - rob war February 4, 2015
      
      that's it! instead of the man in black we have the man in blue. I'm sure though Bill didn't listen to Johnny Cash's worldly music though. (well at least what he would admit to anyway). So on one hand Musk oxen are a character example of a good father but just don't look like one in front of Bill.
    - Dave February 7, 2015
      
      Ruth- You seem to be minimizing the consequences of stunted growth/maturity that participation in a "conform or be expulsed" environment has in young impressionable people.
      
      BG's system retards people's spiritual, emotional, and cognitive growth by blaming rock music, immodest dress, cabbage patch dolls, etc, for our own sin nature and its propensity to sin. As long as we blame something else for our sin, we will never truely experience God's Grace and Forgiveness from being honest with ourselves of who we are before Him.
      
      "This woman you gave me, she made me do it."
      
      "this rock music you gave us, it made me lust"
      
      "That woman's choice to wear a short dress, that made me rape her."
      
      The list can go on and on. BG is just another in a long line of people who capitalized on our innate guilt and fear of ambiguity to make people loyal to him and his teachings. Thats it. I wish you the best with your life and hope one day when, if in God's Grace He allows you to be broken, you will see Him for the loving Father He is who desires all to come to repentance for our choice, in Adam, to reject him.
      
      "The beauty of salvation isn't that we can be perfect in this life, but that we can be at peace."
      -UNK
      I ernestly desire that for you.
    - LynnCD February 4, 2015
      
      Now that would be a question to answer, and if they profited in any way, then I would hope the board would consider the plight of the elderly who have been impoverished by Bill's brother, especially the man who has Lyme disease and had a stroke and became blind.
      
      Larne mentioned again the observation that the Gothards could not have anticipated the Internet. With this in mind may we all look to ourselves and remember a day is coming when all will be uncovered for all of us, and that uncovering will be far quicker than the Internet. Yes, God's grace abounds, and it is also true that we all must stand to give an account to God, each and every one of us, at the judgment seat of Christ.
    - rob war February 3, 2015
      
      kinda a sad legacy for the late William Gothard Sr. One son (Steve) was a serial philanderer/raper. This son (David) looks to be a serial crook and last but not least, Bill is a serial heretic with a liking to teenage girls.
      Pretty sad if you ask me. Maybe the 3 sisters did better.
    - Diana S. February 3, 2015
      
      One account I read by a woman who had been abused by BG recounts being angrily confronted by one of his sisters. Don't remember if I read it here or elsewhere. Does BG have any (acknowledged) nieces or nephews? If so, I hope things have turned out better with them.
    - Don Rubottom February 9, 2015
      
      At least one sister seems more of the enabling kind.
    - Larne Gabriel February 3, 2015
      
      In either late 79 or early 80 I flew David back to Headquarters. He being courted to take over the finance department from his father. That might have really worked out well for him. The eighties brought him a divorce and jail time. He must have moved to Florida to start a new life. Long before the internet could track him down and bring the "alleged" new victims together. Now that's another Gothard family similarity.
- rob war February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  considering Bill's history of hands on and touching with teenage girl staff, I'm not sure any Christian ministry or Church that would want him around at all. Any Church or ministry with even half a brain would not want that liability to have someone with a reputation of grabbing teenage girls involved with their ministry and teaching. Now you will probably say that he wasn't legally convicted of anything which is true but he was dismissed from his own ministry should be cause to have it end for him. At age 80 now, he really needs to call it a day.
- J.B. February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, how exactly do you really want this situation to play out?
- LynnCD February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, it is ironic to me, and I only say this because of the accusation I heard over and over ad nauseum on the Gothard discussion group (ie, this is not what I would normally say to a commenter), but you sound awfully bitter. Do you have a problem with bitterness?
  
  In all seriousness, now, anybody with any kind of a brain would say that a serial abuser such as BG (even if you just go by what he himself admitted to doing) is totally disqualified from any kind of leadership in public ministry. Don't make it out that now to sound as though RG has taken BG down, and now they want to stomp all over him. He can have a ministry for sure -- we all can -- but just not a leadership capacity in anything.
- rob war February 2, 2015 Reply
  
  I think this article and subsequent replies are about regrets of those raised under ATI and how it negatively affected their lives. This isn't about Bill and being disqualified from his ministry or any other one. I think if this is some sort of issue with you, email the moderators or reply on articles that deal with this topic. All this does is belittle the regrets and losses already expressed here.
- David February 3, 2015 Reply
  
  The issue is leadership in the Body of Christ, period. Are you suggesting that if a person disqualifies himself the way Bill has over one organization that he simply needs to create or move on to another? Bill Gothard is a legalistic heretic. Pure and simple. He should be leading NO ONE -- he ought to sit down and listen rather than be up there teaching others.
  - rob war February 3, 2015 Reply
    
    There have been examples where so called "leaders" later recanted and renounced what they previous taught. Prime examples of this are Jim Bakker and 4 of the 5 Fort Lauderdale 5 leaders of the shepherding movement. Jim Bakker when in prison said he finally really read the Bible and realized that the over the top prosperity message he promoted was not at all taught in the Bible. He very much reaped the results of his out of control message when he landed in jail. Likewise with the Fort Lauderdale five, they ended up splitting up, Derek Prince's remarriage was the catalyst and complaints about abuses surfaced, 4 of them did do a double take on what they previously taught. So Christians teachers and minister can and do relook at their message or teaching and do either repent or recant. It isn't too much out of the question here to hope Bill Gothard can do the same.
- dreamer February 5, 2015 Reply
  
  Ruth, near the top of the page, there is a blue box that says "About Us" on it. Click on it, and you will see a drop-down menu. One of the choices is "Our Mission." Click on that one, and you will see what RG's goals are. None of them include the word "change." RG is committed to helping those who have been hurt by the teachings of Bill Gothard, no matter what stage of healing they are in.
Nancy2 February 1, 2015 Reply

Ruth, please help me understand...BG in his statement confesses to the sin of "pride". "It is a grief to realize how my pride and insensitivity have affected so many people. I have asked the Lord to reveal the underlying causes and He is doing this." Yet he has not corrected those things he has taught or written that were created in his prideful estate. Where is his retraction of those things his pride created?

Pride is not a lesser sin than sexual immorality. Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity. BG confessed to pride/being vain.

How is BG fit for leadership when he has confessed to a sin that interferes with an individual's recognition of the Grace of a God? IBLP/ATI is a system of principles that holds God's Grace in vain. It makes it much smaller than the Grace that is defined throughout Scripture.

If he is truly repentant then he would go back through all his material and see how his pride has been a huge part of what he has written/taught. He would publicaly correct the errors in the material that has been misleading to so many and find what Scripture in context says about his ill conceived prideful perceptions.

When someone twists God's very word as to control others and stands between the individual and the working of the Holy Spirit it will take far more to correct than a mere tweaking here and there.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

The Lord gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us. We do not need another guide.
David Pigg February 2, 2015 Reply

In answer to Ruth's question,it never was easy for human nature to understand wickedness,when it is hid behind an aesthetic disguise,from the handsomeness of the serpent,the attractive appearance of the fruit,or the embellished format of the publication materials from IBLP,intending as always to go on;I feel like the best is the handsomely illustrated "Character Sketches"{1976},when Bill's brother was sexually involved with naive,trusting staff,pornographic films seen at the Retreat Center,[Northwoods,Mich.],and Ruth,a trusting former secretary at the institute was sent there...as punishment.The disparity between inner content and outward appearance heightened always by the appeal to my Adamic nature,thru natural religion,"guaranteed success",so confusing to comprehend.The beautiful bait,the alluring promises....Now 30 years later comes the afterward."If you don't respect yourself,nobody will for you".Why should I?Rejected by a religious caste system whose walls too high to scale over,a ditch whose banks too steep to climb,its all my fault for not trying hard enough.I'm the one that's worthless.The fruits from ingesting the inner content...Sexually molested women,traumatized...,God is seen like a tyrant, "father"[?][Or maybe Bill Gothard,a benevolent grandfather?],having a black book,a whistle,and a whip,step out of line and he'll crack you one,smoldering under the guise are the testimonies of well over 50 sexually assaulted women,aggrandized families,isolated against one another,loneliness,isolation,exploitation,health ruined from exhaustive overtime,juveniles in solitary confinement,food deprivation,all because the traps to catch us worked.Character Sketches,and anything else promoted by a non-repented religious system,and a non-repented man must be totally condemned.Refuted.Thirty years.Plus.
J.B. February 2, 2015 Reply

Ruth,

I don't know you, and I won't make any presumptions about who you are, but I'm curious about your own involvement with IBLP and ATI. How deeply involved were you with the program? You mentioned ITC - how long were you there? When was that? What is your opinion of the program, and what kind of experience did you have with it? And what do you hope will happen with it?

We've had a few commenters appear on RG from time to time who have defended IBLP in ways that have been especially insensitive and unedifying toward those who have been burned by it. So if some of the folks on here seem a bit on edge, please know that there's more that has transpired beneath the surface and that it's not necessarily you.
nicole gardner February 3, 2015 Reply

There was the question posed by "Ruth" a week or so ago asking if IBLP discourages college attendance. Yes, it does,...directly! Gothard said that "well-meaning" parents and attendies of universities, specifying even "Christian universities", incurred the spiritual backsliding of the student merely by their attendance. "Come to ruin" is I think how he phrased it.

One of Gothard's more exploitative attempts to expand his empire that likely had less success that he'd hoped. His IBLP talk centered on TAKING KIDS OUT, preferably during the FIRST SEMESTER. He prattles on about parents making the financial sacrifice of losing money they already paid for tuition in order to reinstate God's way for their families. (Gothard's way was always God's way according to him). What he had going there was no doubt an attempt to creep into universities (especially Christian ones). His stressing that kids be taken out after enrolling was no doubt his primary objective in touting the out-of-college doctrine. College administrators would never know about kids who never attempted to get in. But they couldn't help but take note of who was pulling out, if only for roll and accounting records. Gothard obviously advertised IBLP as being the better option, in it's exclusivity, actively opposing college. No doubt he was hoping that direct offers from Christian universities would result from his convincing enough students to be withdrawn. Gothard's buisiness-minded goal: create enough of a vacuum in universities so that he'd get courted by them to suck students in instead of out. I think Bob Jones is the only one that played into his hands.
"Hannah" February 4, 2015 Reply

I regret that I didn't walk out when I was 20 years old. Into a harsh world, but no harsher than the one behind me.

I regret that I was ever involved with the orphan ministry, and that I laid upon those children a form of religious bondage that even I could not attain to. When I should have been making up for lost childhoods and offering a message of unconditional love, all I had were rules for squelching the child that was still left.

I regret sharing the gospel with my adopted siblings, only to bind them with rules for conduct that were inextricably linked to that gospel. I regret that the pain, oppression, and authoritarianism in my family, ultimately cost one of those siblings his life.

And I regret not meeting my husband ten years earlier. I regret that I have only one child. Is it not a great irony that, for me, the commitment to courtship served to inadvertently limit my family size?

But what I don't regret, is that I did finally leave.

I did stand up for myself.

I did become a strong woman.

And I did eventually find love, albeit about 10 years late.

And my one child is growing up in a home lavished with love and grace.
Todd k February 4, 2015 Reply

And ironically in one of his teaching manuals BG uses the musk oxen as a good example of how fathers are to protect their children (and perhaps Gothardite kids) from the "evil influences" of the "world" (i.e. non-Gothardites).
We have home- schooled, Christian -schooled and ended up public schooling our kids and by far they blossomed much more in the public schools than the other options. BG and his blindly lead Gothardites have almost always used fear, hate, urban legends, subjectivism, self-righteousness,bunker mentality, and heretical teachings to justify their existence. I definitely regret going to his basic seminar (but was nearly forced to by the seminary I attended). And I regret attending a so-called pastors seminar that I was pressured to attend. I would rather be a musk oxen than have anything to do with Gothardism.
- rob war February 4, 2015 Reply
  
  Well if you part your hair down the middle you can look like one according to Bill.
- Leslie February 4, 2015 Reply
  
  I agree Todd k,
  
  Our youngest of six was the only one who had the chance to benefit and blossom by going to the public high school. By then we had torn the blinders off of our eyes and matured in our Christian walk. Only one of the older five has found his way free. Surprisingly he has not cast off the church. He is just very wary. Two of the others who were gothardites are just really confused about most everything. One to the point that I think she may be mentally ill from it all. We are a struggling family,but we are slowly, very slowly getting stronger. I rue the day that we heard of BG and attended the seminars, and then later took our kids. Mea Culpa.
J.B. February 5, 2015 Reply

I've been avoiding commenting on the article itself until today because I couldn't find the words. Looking back at my childhood, I'm thankful to have been a part of a family that wasn't particularly abusive, though it certainly had its faults. But in many ways, that kind of comparison has encouraged me to suppress the regrets I have had over the years. My mother has always been especially skilled at looking at other families with problems and saying, "Well, at least we're not THAT bad. You don't have to worry about dealing with those issues."

It still happens today when some other person's family enters a conversation, despite my living on my own now. It happened even more back when we were involved with IBLP. Playing that comparison game was a key enabling factor in keeping us chained to Gothard and his program until I was in high school. As long as we could "balance" the IBLP teachings with our own, as long as we didn't "go too far" or "misuse" them like Those Horrible Other Parents did, everything would be perfect. I could be shielded from worldly influences, and the family dynamic wouldn't have to be terribly unhealthy. We could have our cake and eat it too. But it didn't work. That's something that, sadly, I don't think they can really comprehend now as long as they continue to engage in comparison.

A rather silly anecdote: just this past Sunday afternoon, I was eating lunch with some friends from church who were about my age - mid '20s or older. During the conversation, family-friendly '90s TV came up. Somehow, everything immediately felt awkward. Growing up in ATI / IBLP, my parents somehow managed to skirt the rules about owning a television, though I wasn't allowed to watch it on school nights. I grew up on game shows and '40s-era Disney cartoon shorts, mainly because they weren't quite the unknown commodity that contemporary '90s family TV was. Even back as a kid, I always felt like the one person among my peers who never watched Home Improvement or Boy Meets World. Now, despite being out of IBLP, it still feels the same, only when waxing nostalgic with others. (So here's to catching up!)

But far more than being allowed to watch TV is the regret about maturing healthily. J.K.'s final comment in the article particularly resonates here:

“All the time I thought I was becoming an especially mature Christian because of all the special 'inside info' we were being taught. No one told me I would wake up twelve years later and feel like I needed to start over again. So, I regret the years lost. I regret years spent perfecting my perfectionism and people-pleasing skills. I regret the distance placed between us and our non-ATI friends because of music and dress standards.

Being raised with IBLP teachings encouraged me to adopt a very elitist attitude among people I knew, even when I wasn't in ATI anymore. One of the biggest blessings in my life when I first moved to Texas and started drifting away from IBLP was a church youth group that was more about fostering authentic community than entertaining a bunch of kids. This was a foreign concept to me. After all, I had been conditioned to believe that "teenager" was an evil term crafted by the Worldly Powers That Be to delay our maturity, and youth groups were pandering institutions that were to be avoided at all costs. But this was different.

Even so, it was an adjustment. For a while, I felt rather disconcerted when we had a good time outside all the Bible study. Our leaders tried to create games and activities that intentionally drew us out of our comfort zone to break down the barriers we erected, particularly between males and females. Part of me was eager to jump right in. This was what I had been waiting for all my life: authenticity, real relationships, and no suppression on them. But another part of me kept turning back to the tenets of Gothard and doubting what God was doing. What about making sure that our relationships were defined by "Godly" activities and not frivolous ones? Playing a musical chairs-type game to draw us out of our comfort zone around each other was frivolous, wasn't it?!

It took so long to overcome this. But the worst had to be the way I swallowed the courtship teachings of IBLP hook, line, and sinker. Because I spent the most time during my grade school years around my mother, I naturally adopted many of the same qualities, hopes, and fears she had. One of them, sadly, was an attitude of risk aversion. It certainly kept us out of a lot of sticky situations while I grew up, but it also functioned as a crutch when we made decisions regarding the unknown. A not-quite-so-heavy example from 15 years ago: finding a dog. When I brought forward that desire to my parents, my dad was all for it, but my mom was solidly against it because it was something new that we had never done before as a family. Far too often, we would back away and avoid taking action in the name of "being wise," "waiting on the Lord," or something to that extent, and sure enough, it happened here as well. (Thankfully, we did go through with the dog - two, in fact!)

The heavier example, though, was interpersonal relationships. Despite what IBLP may say, growing up in such a close-knit youth group where guys and girls were actually encouraged to interact more physically with each other (as in the contact games we played, hugs, etc.) actually discouraged us away from romantic relationships. We barely had anybody date in our group while I was there. But whenever someone did, it was easy to couple my IBLP conditioning about dating and courtship with my risk aversion and desire to avoid something new and unfamiliar - in this case, an adjustment to the group dynamic. On top of that, my lack of experience with peer interaction and my breadth of experience with adult interaction as an only child in IBLP was instrumental in making me feel like I had "arrived," so to speak. I didn't have to worry about growing up with my peers because I had surpassed them, right?

Nothing could have been further from the truth. I'm deeply ashamed at the attitude I carried for so many years. I wish I hadn't been so opposed to dating during my teenage years simply because I wanted to avoid all the risk that came with it.
- Rachel February 7, 2015 Reply
  
  J.B.- You found the words very succinctly, and many of us can relate. Thank you for sharing.
Matthew Coury February 6, 2015 Reply

My parents were leaders at one of the training centers. I hate to say it but that part about truly being loved by your parents resonates with me especially in the case of my father. i won't go into my whole life story cause I already wrote a book on that...but THE worst part of my upbringing and the literal enslavement I went through at one of the training centers where I did not want to work in my youth has caused me so much trouble in finding a job and being able to even develop a relationship with a woman so i can get married and have kids it is heartbreaking. i became a criminal for a number of years after moving out of my parent's home, basically a mobster, while i continued working for my father, and now that he cannot afford to pay me my lack of job experience is causing it to be very difficult to find employment and also the possibility employers may be seeing my criminal record.

Here I am thirty years old, and yes i have had a LOT of life experiences most people will never have, but the damage is unbelievable that i have been through emotionally and psychologically because of ati. drugs, all of it is what i went through as a result...even attempting suicide and becoming a satanist for a number of years.

it is now something that is LITERALLY destroying my life and i cry out to God on almost a daily basis. My parents have no idea what it is like, my father does not even care what happens to me, and my mother lives in her own world while my dad makes a check and she watches tv. I on the other hand have no future because of their decisions and they do nothing to make it easier. i need all the prayer I can get. i fill out job applications, go to interviews, and don't get hired. it is very frustrating.
- Becoming Free February 7, 2015 Reply
  
  I'm very glad you've found your way out of that nightmare. May God give you His strength and walk beside you as you deal with its effects. You are in my prayers.
- Don Rubottom February 9, 2015 Reply
  
  Matthew, there are organizations, both Christian and secular that work with someone like yourself who have turned the corner morally but need a hand getting back on the path to productivity. The Education and Employment Ministry in Oklahoma City is one, and many big cities have shelters that are connected to such training/job placing businesses. Also, your local vo-technical school or community college may have some ideas. You are plenty young enough to get on the path to productive employment.
  If you can't find help that way, call the local United Way and ask what local group helps people with low education and criminal backgrounds find a job.
  Get some assistance. They love to help people succeed. You will. Don't try to do it alone.
Dave February 11, 2015 Reply

I'd like to take a moment and address this notion that college is a waste of money because of all the "fluff" courses.

While there are real issues with the traditional college curricula, and these issues are hotly debated, this sweeping generalization and dismissal of college based on the relevency of "fluff" courses is non-sensical.

To imply one has reviewed every degree path at every school , and is qualified to make such a generalization is so unlikely as to be absurb. It then becomes a vitriolic conversation based on personal experiences or perceptions, hardly the basis for the sound reason the Bible requires us to have when making decisions.

For my experience, I'm currently working on my second masters. I have a MS and working on an MBA. I'm no slouch in the academic dept and my maritime and admiralty law is kicking my butt. I'm calling on my freshman english and philosophy and humanities course like a champ.

College is designed to be a building block and a place you can try new things and find your interests and want you can be good at and spend your life doing. Yes, some of the intro courses can be basic, but anything at the beginning is.

Did you pop out of the womb able to run a marathon? No, you took a "fluff" course in walking where you did nothing but watch and cry and poop and pee. You started stumbling and bumped your head and knees a couple times then you figured it out. You had people there to help you (I.e. you didnt do it on your own).

What would you think if a baby told its parents: " I am doing nothing until I can run." Stupidity and self-defeating.
- Don Rubottom February 13, 2015 Reply
  
  You are very correct. Most fluff courses are in fluff majors. No engineer or scientist has the luxury of fluff courses. Majors built on a centuries long developing body of demonstrable truth have much to master in four years. But if the theory was only devised last year, it probably won't be around long and need not be too taxing to comprehend.
  That colleges and universities cater to students who don't want to learn much is a product of the market. But for the students who want to learn many valuable things, there is no limit to what they might accomplish in a typical university. Most third worlders who come here, don't come to study sociology or Hispanic or Women's Studies. They come to study science and engineering.
Kristen Hillman February 18, 2015 Reply

Hello to all of you. It seems the last post was two weeks ago, so I don't know if this comment will be seen. I just want to say thank you for this site. I came upon it by accident, while googling IBLP to find the Character Sketches. Was I ever surprised to read all this news! I got angry, mostly at myself for not "searching the scriptures to see if it was so". I accepted so much teaching as truth, assuming that the famous teachers knew all, and I was the ignorant one. My husband and I did not join ATI, and only attended one Basic. But after reading a heap of articles on this site, I realize how many books, sermons, homeschool curricula, and churches that influenced us, are infested with Gothardism. When I was a new Christian, I was so naive. I didn't know that other Christians would lie. That fact still makes me sad. Thank you again, for heralding truth and opening my eyes.
- Tangent February 19, 2015 Reply
  
  Welcome, Kristen!
nicole gardner February 19, 2015 Reply

Hi Kristen Hillman,

I'm one of the many people who see & appreciate your post; I'm glad to see another wise woman becoming part of the RG community! I also did not know that others had suffered along with me under Gothardism until stumbling across this site last fall; I just thought I myself was gullible enough to have taken it too literally. But o no, we have A LOT of company because Gothard suckered-in A WHOLE LOT of us. I'm glad to now be among those who are now the wiser for it.

God Bless you for taking time to comment.
Moderator February 27, 2015 Reply

A quick note from the moderators: please accept our apology if your comment from any time in the past couple weeks is stuck in moderation. It can be very frustrating when you comment and then are left to wonder why it was not approved. Several of you are experiencing this. It is not you, it is us. We should have this resolved over the weekend. Thank you for your patience, and hopefully you won't have to experience that kind of delay again!
- Mark R February 28, 2015 Reply
  
  Do the moderators plan to have any new features? We've had the same stories for over a month now and the comments are dying out.
  - rob war February 28, 2015 Reply
    
    agree
  - Becoming Free February 28, 2015 Reply
    
    Ditto.
Rae April 23, 2015 Reply

My friends in Jesus Christ, I write this to you with a lifetime of knowledge being raised in a secular world without the discipline and structure your upset by. I see that you have regrets and that you also have suffered abuses, but I also don't know if you realize what you've been able to avoid through the protection of your upbringing. When I was 35 years old after suffering all my life, I was saved by way of firstly, Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven, through a visit to a "healing room" volunteers who prayed over me. I am so grateful that Our Lord saved me from the dark veil that curtained my whole life, and I have the responsibility to be honest about my true sins. I just want you to know how bad it can be, so that perhaps you can appreciate the redemption that is available for all beloved.
Here are my sins and some of the causes, beyond my own ignorance and bad choices which I fully acknowledge;
I was taught that a woman's sexuality is her own choice and that no one should take freedom away from her to expend her virginity any way she chooses, my father was a rock and roll guitarists and left my mother with three children working low paying jobs and long hours left me a sense of abandonment and a feeling of not being loved, many sins were done against me; 100+ lovers (more than 1 rapist included due to their evil and my bad choices to be in a dangerous scenario) and 4 abortions later are perhaps my greatest sins, these are blood serious sins that I have begged for forgiveness for and I have no way of knowing if God will forgive me to the point of full redemption and heaven, but he has blessed me with a faithful and true husband, three fine live healthy children, clarity and happiness without drugs and I will love him with all my heart forever because he has shown mercy to me even if Im not counted in the end. For God is good and who is more deserving of our appreciation than Him, even without the hope of future reward?
I spent a lifetime doing what I wanted, I travelled the world, I danced all night, taking drugs and having free sex, I windsurfed and believed, ignorantly, that I could accomplish anything if I just put my mind to it. I was truly free, and I with every choice to do unGodly things, including acting in judgement and envy and coveting and hatred towards others, my life spirit became weighed down with evil thought, intent, burden, sadness. I eventually gave up the hard drugs and as I called out to God (for I believed in a creator but not in the teachings of Jesus Christ during that time) I called to God to save me from my misery, by then I aleady had my husband and my first child, a stable life but completely miserable. I smoked marijuana like it was my saviour, unable to live with myself, when I was directed to the healing room. All I had to do was consider for a moment that Jesus was real, just opened the door a crack, just consider that it wasn't a historical story but that he was real, and the days began to fill with the miraculous grace of God, through Jesus Christ. As the days went forth, different days brought different revelations, the most shocking was the depth of sins that I had done, having considered myself a victim all my life I never really considered my own mistakes. The tears of joy as I felt the redemption for the sins I had not even known about before filled me with love that is unmeasurable. I know I am not done, every challenge and every memory and sins I have not even realized yet comes in Gods perfect timing.
Here is my point to you, and I know most of you will be horrified by my life's journey, but hopefully you can put into perspective that though review and clarity is important, more important is the forgiveness of the imperfect nature of humans, especially our parents. 99% of parents try as hard as they can to do what is right by way of their own knowledge. The true way of receiving the most of this life is to listen to the Word of God and try your hardest to serve Him, which most of your upbringings focused on more than the majority of the world. Be thankful for what you have, especially Our Father and guidance to a righteous life full of salvation and promise of everlasting life.
- DavidM April 23, 2015 Reply
  
  I would suggest that what you experienced and what many ATI kids experienced represents two extremes - both which are equally bad in their own way. Avoiding the evils of one extreme does not somehow make the evils of the other extreme somehow less bad. Nor do the good intentions of those who led us to the one extreme mitigate the evils either.
  
  Still, being reminded of the other extreme can be useful in reminding those who are coming out of one extreme not to fall into the other. Forgiveness and grace should not be forgotten as we realize just how little of those we grew up with.
- Aila H April 23, 2015 Reply
  
  Hi Rae,
  You said you're not sure if God can forgive you to the point of full redemption and heaven, but this is what His word says "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. " 1John 1:9. He forgives it all, and these are Jesus words in John chapter 14 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house there are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you." Jesus doesn't offer partial redemption. He offers full and free redemption, mercy, love and faithfulness forever. May you be blessed to know this dear one.
- Lindsey April 23, 2015 Reply
  
  Rae,
  I am curious. What brought you to this site? Thank you for the courage to tell your story.
  
  I feel moved to say two things. First, you bear no responsibility for the rapes you endured, and anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about. I am very sorry you went through those rapes. You did not deserve it.
  
  Second, I get worried when Christians, especially women, start thinking they are the worst of all the sinners. I don’t want you to think your history is unusually checkered or that you are some kind of terrible whore.
  
  You said, "I have no way of knowing if God will forgive me to the point of full redemption and heaven.” Rae, God absolutely accepts your life in its entirety!
  
  I looked at the CDC website tonight. Their latest report on abortions is from 2011. In that year, 730,322 abortions were reported. (California, Maryland and New Hampshire chose not to report.) For 480,774 of these abortions, they asked about the women's number of previous abortions. The report says 44,523 women had three or more previous abortions.
  
  This is from a single year and a single country, and it is only partial data! Imagine, then, how many women on the planet have had four or more abortions! Again, I do not mean to imply that your suffering was or is insignificant. On the contrary, I am outraged you did not have more support growing up, and I am very sorry for everything you have experienced. I only want to say that you are in good company. Your struggles are very human. Read John 8:1-11 about the adulteress being stoned by religious people and how Jesus treated her. I am certain if Jesus was here with us right now, he would love to hang out with you, and he would adore you completely.
  
  It may seem really crazy, but oftentimes, people who were raised in really strict homes make the same mistakes you did. Sometimes, it is because they weren’t allowed to practice making their own decisions when they were young. Sometimes, they rebel. At any rate, either extreme of parenting has a pretty bad track record.
  
  I wish you all the best in raising your family. I love that you are finally finding peace. You are a new creature in Christ.
- Girl of Grace March 4, 2019 Reply
  
  Mrs. Rae,
  I don't know if you will ever read this, but I want you to know that no matter what you have done, GOD HAS FORGIVEN YOU and you will be accepted into the Kingdom of God.
  One of my favorite Bible verses is 1 John 3:20:
  "FOR GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS AND KNOWS ALL THINGS."
  He knows your heart, Ma'am, and He forgives you.
  Also, Romans 8:1 says, "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
  I pray these verses may be of comfort to you.
  May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Anne May 26, 2015 Reply

I am flabbergasted. I stumbled upon this site because of a blog post that a friend of mine put on Facebook. I went to an extremely small, fundamentalist school from K-8. I don't think the home school wave had hit us yet, otherwise my dad would have made my mom do it! My dad was emphatic about us always being modest and covering up. Looking back now, through the eyes of an adult, and fully aware of his flaws, I realize that he was a compulsive adulterer, porn addict and a misogynist who didn't want to take ownership of his own shortcomings. It was a woman's responsibility to keep HIM from being tempted. Even his closest family and friends were - and still are! - completely unaware. I remember hearing the Gothard name at school and at home. I remember my dad railing against my mom when she dared have any opinion different from his. One small difference was that my dad wanted me and my sisters to go to college, but not because we needed to be ready to support ourselves, but rather because "No man wants a stupid wife." Because my mom divorced my dad when I was a young teen, I had a "normal" public high school education, but the damage was done. I HAD NO IDEA that I am not unique in all of this. While I don't wish this kind of confusion and emotional turmoil on anyone, it is good to see others put forth words and actions to debunk what I somehow always knew in my gut was wrong. It took years of dating the wrong guys, trying different churches, counseling, and ultimately walking away from most of my life to finally find happiness. I didn't marry until I was 37, but he is without a doubt the greatest blessing of my life. He is the silver lining to the storm cloud that came before.
kashima_mikoto July 15, 2016 Reply

While my parents were not Gothardites, they WERE influenced by those who were, or who held similar beliefs. My apologies for the lengthiness! I'm the eldest of 12 (8 girls, 4 boys), and this is my personal story.

My father truly believed that we girls were more or less his to do with until we married. He forced us to wear our hair long, and to don ugly, shapeless clothing, because God forbid anyone be able to tell we had breasts or a figure. He also had me start shaving at nine (I did NOT actually need to), and often remarked on my weight (I was "too skinny", and then, when I gained 3-5 lbs, I was "getting heavier"). Everything I did was to please my father. I even told him when I liked a boy, and I later found out he told off every guy who asked him for permission to "court" me, or even just to get to know me better! For my entire life after puberty, I believed I was ugly and boring. But dating was evil and so all I could do was wait around until a guy expressed his desire to marry me. My dad mentioned to me that he could see me marrying a particular guy, who happened to be staying with us, and it was a young man I saw only as a friend. But I had been told over and over that my father should vet and decide who was right for me, so I tried really hard to like this boy. When he gave me a letter telling me he could see himself marrying me, I had a severe panic attack. I did not love him, but I felt I was going against what my father wanted. Unknown to my dad, I was secretly carrying a torch for a much older guy, and the conflicting feelings made me physically ill. I ended up rejecting (with fear and trembling) the young man's courtship, and he quickly moved back to his home state. My younger brother blamed me for his best friend leaving, and I sobbed hysterically over it for a long time, especially once I found out the man I liked had an understanding with the father of another girl my age, that he would begin courting her when she was 18. Broken-hearted, I tried to move on.

After a few years, I turned 18 and I moved to my maternal grandparents' home to get my GED. My father was upset, but to his credit he didn't stop me. Once at my grandparents', I began to discover that I had my own views on things, and gained some confidence. I found that I liked makeup, and that dressing beautifully was for ME, not for men. It was not my fault nor my problem what they thought. My body was not something to be ashamed of or hide. I got my high school diploma with high scores, no thanks to my parents' awful excuse for "homeschooling" (which, by the way, I think is a fantastic way to educate if you do it RIGHT). I even cut off my looooong hair and realized I looked a hundred times better with it shorter. But the ties to my family were strong, and I eventually moved back in with them while they were living at my paternal grandparents' home in NJ.

My father was horrified at how I had changed. At 19, I was given a strict curfew of 10pm, told how to dress, had my belongings gone through, with my father throwing out any non-Christian items he found, and had my computer (which I paid for with money I earned) ripped out of my hands and only returned once I was sobbing and promising to abide by certain rules. When I eventually met a boy who wanted to date me, my dad laid down the law. I had never been given any sex education beyond a vague "it's bad, don't do it until you're married or you'll get pregnant", and my father constantly grilled me about if we were having sex or doing "inappropriate" things like hand-holding or kissing. After about 2 months of dating, my dad told my boyfriend he had to propose to me or get lost, because dating was evil, and I should marry the first man who courted me, because I would have regrets if I dated and broke up with guys. I think he thought this would get rid of him. But my boyfriend was the sort to accept any challenge, and promptly bought me a tiny engagement ring. My dad lost it. He threatened to throw me out of the house if I kept seeing him. We were baffled, because we had literally done what he said to keep seeing each other. So we held on stubbornly, until eventually, my dad begrudgingly accepted we were going to get married.

My new fiance soon began pressuring me to do him sexual favors, and I gave in when I grew frightened that he would leave me, and tried to reason that we were getting married, so it would be alright. He would often yell and curse at me, and I would do more and more to try and make him happy again. Thankfully, I was too scared of getting pregnant to actually have sex, but I did a lot of things I never wanted to do to try and placate him.
After over three years of this, my fiance called off the wedding one week before the big day, promising that he still wanted to marry me, but wasn't "ready yet". Then he began cheating on me, and eventually dumped me.

I was devastated and told him to never contact me again unless I did first. After a single week of detoxing from him, I realized I was free! I was actually happier than I had been in many years, and I was determined to not let my family ruin any more of my life. I began online dating on Christian Mingle, and met a fantastic guy. He was kind and treated me with the utmost respect, and we soon decided to meet. He came to visit and the moment he got out of his car, I shocked us both by kissing him! He quickly won over my entire family after 15 minutes, and we had the most amazing weekend. He took me hiking on the Appalachian trail near where I lived, to the drive-in theater, and we even slow danced under the stars. When he visited a second time a month later, he asked me to marry him. ^_^ We got married the next month, and we have been living happily ever since! He is amazing, and we recently had our beautiful baby boy.

I find that my faith has vastly changed in the past few years, and it makes me sick that other people have and continue to go through what I did and worse. I hope that my generation of parents will learn and do right by their own children. I pray that my son will never feel the way my parents made me to feel, and that those families I know who are still in the clutches of these awful teachings would be set free.
- huzandbuz July 17, 2016 Reply
  
  Congratulations Kashima!!
  
  God Bless every moment of your lives together....
  ^i^ ^i^ ^i^
- Julia Fetters July 18, 2016 Reply
  
  Kashima - rejoicing with you! Freedom is so wonderful!
  
  I was the Mom in all of this - although no 2 families have the same dynamic. My husband was not the same as your Dad. Anyway, we are now 10,000,000 miles away from where we were and now know our good God in truth - no guilt unless it comes with sweet conviction and answers - no dangling carrot of never measuring up or knowing just what to do.
  
  I don't know if you realize this but the life you lived with your family was one of fear. And guilt. And more guilt. And more guilt.
  
  As a blessing to you, I would like to recommend "Families Where Grace is in Place" by Jeff Van Vonderen. I am sure you can read parts of it online. Chapter 10 is super freeing!
  
  Again - rejoicing in your freedom!
  - huzandbuz July 19, 2016 Reply
    
    Julia,
    
    Thank you for the mention of that book to Kashima.
    It sounds wonderful! I just ordered a very reasonably priced, used copy via ebay. I have purchased and enjoyed reading numerous informative books suggested by Recovering Grace readers. (My present read is Bockelman's 'Gothard'; then on to West's 'Theology of the Body'.)
    
    Blessings.... ^i^
Willow April 27, 2019 Reply

Thank you for creating this site. It’s helpful to know I’m not alone. I hope my story will encourage others.
Our family attended the ATIA seminars in the mid 90s when we began homeschooling.
I’m now a 41 year old woman. Never been married.
At age 17 my mom told me flat out that I was NOT going to secular college. An older cousin had gone to college and ended up pregnant. I was allowed to apprentice and learn the skill of piano tuning and go to a Bible College where I did very well academically. It was not a specific “career choice” but felt like something to do until a young man decided to court me- which never happened. I was awkward around guys, overly serious, and afraid of dating (and perceived it as worldly and inferior). After my first semester (even at this very conservative school), I ditched the ankle-length calico (yes- calico) dresses for normal clothing, cut my waist-length hair up to my shoulders, and got my ears pierced. I had a couple of very eligible guys interested in me but I flatly told one of them “I don’t date.” It didn’t take long for word to get around the small campus.
My mom picked out a man for me- 19 years older than me (single missionary, very long story). (Twenty years later she STILL thinks I should marry him.) This was the third or fourth man she thought would be “my future husband.” It was the one time I had the “you’ll-have-to-ask-my-dad’s-permission” talk. I thought that afterward, I’d have a chance to tell my dad that I didn’t feel comfortable with the idea. Instead, to my horror (in church no less), the man says to my dad, “we’d like to start dating.” And my mostly passive dad, without hesitation said, “That would be fine.” I felt like a piece of meat at the market. I tried to be interested (almost succeeded for about a month) but I couldn’t quite bring myself to keep the relationship going.
Gothard seemed to promise that if you would just approach courtship and marriage “God’s way,” then the Lord would bless you by bringing a wonderful mate into your life. I can now see the utter rediculousness of this. It’s no different than the “prosperity gospel”; do XYZ and God will be obligated to bless you.
I worked at the Bible College then went into full-time music ministry because marriage never happened and I had to support myself.
I almost dated a few times in my 30s but I had yet to shed the habit of trying to determine whether or not a man was “husband material” within the first 2-3 conversations. That kind of pressure kills relationships.
It’s only recently that I’ve realized that much of my social awkwardness around men was wired in by my over-protective, match-making mom, my disinterested dad, and having “sensory processing sensitivity.” Thankfully I have received the grace of God to rescue me from feeling like a complete failure at life. I’m at peace with the past and looking forward to the future.
A year ago I resigned from a well-paid position on staff at a large church because the trajectory of worship was becoming too production-oriented for me. It’s as if I’m starting life all over. I’m re-thinking everything. Learning about myself. Growing deeper in faith. Learning to walk more freely in the grace of God. Life doesn’t have to be the white-knuckled, terrifying thing I believed it was. I’m thankful that the Lord delights in bringing His children into true liberty. God bless.

Sorry, Mom and Dad. We DO Have Regrets

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