The Brilliance of Bill Gothard

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The Brilliance of Bill Gothard

The Brilliance of Bill Gothard

29 April 2015, 06:00

Bill Gothard created a cult, and he did a fine job of it.

He didn’t create a commune that physically isolated his followers from the rest of the world. He didn’t lead weird sessions with chanting and candles. He didn’t even come up with strange names for his teachings. He conducted his cult in the wide-open view of the church, and for twenty or thirty years, he was wildly successful.

What was so brilliant about his “new approach” to cult-building?

1. It sounded innocuous—even boring. He didn’t name his empire something like The Kingdom of Salt and Light, or God’s White Army of Truth. No, he named his “organization” The Institute in Basic Life Principles. His homeschooling branch was The Advanced Training Institute. It’s like he used a Corporate Name Generator and chose the blandest options. Who would hear those names and suspect it was crammed full of twisted Scripture and damaging legalistic ideas? If the past thirty years is any indication—almost nobody.

2. His initial indoctrination wasn’t held at secret meetings with a select few followers. He held massive seminars and taught thousands of people at the same time. Granted, he did warn people not to lend out the materials to people who wouldn’t “understand.” But that made sense, because this was a week-long seminar. Obviously there was a lot of information that you couldn’t just pick up from the red workbook. Meanwhile, who would look at a city-wide seminar and think “cult”?

3. He separated the young people from their parents and short-circuited communication between them. Whether during “apprenticeship sessions” at seminars or in interactions with staff at training centers, he had direct access to us students. What he taught us was more extreme than what he said to our parents—but he used the same terminology. The result was that we and our parents often believed different things but didn’t know it because we used the same words.

He taught our parents that any questioning from us was rebellion. At the same time, he taught us not to “give a bad report” to our parents, so we didn’t let them know about problems that we saw. Meanwhile, he flashed that smile of his and said that he was building strong families. Who could object to that goal?

4. He had no centralized church. There was Headquarters, of course, with the reassuring, ordinary Midwestern name of “Oak Brook.” But people didn’t sell everything they owned so they could live near Gothard’s own personal church, as many cult leaders encourage. Instead, Gothard disseminated his ideas through his “homeschool program.” He required member families to fall in line with his teachings, consistently conditioning them to isolate themselves, both spiritually and physically, from the rest of the world. Which resulted in his most brilliant method:

5. He made sure that his ideas became his followers’ ideas. It wasn’t “Mr. Gothard tells us to do this.” It was, “We have chosen to do this.” That means that when the teachings were challenged, it wasn’t a challenge to Gothard. It was a challenge to my personal belief system. We will fight for a revered leader to an extent, but we often will fight for our own beliefs until death.

Even today, with so much evidence of Gothard’s false teaching, inappropriate behavior, and refusal to deal with sin, it’s difficult to explain how we are so damaged. All we can say is that we attended seminars and followed a certain homeschool curriculum. It’s named, unremarkably, IBLP or ATI, and the teachings are couched in terms of “Seven Basic Principles,” “moral purity,” and “staying under authority.” It doesn’t sound like any cult anybody else has read about or seen on TV. It sounds pretty bland, in fact.

Innocuous, boring, and spiritually devastating.

That’s the brilliant legacy of Bill Gothard.

Sara Roberts Jones spent her teen years under the teachings of Bill Gothard, including attending Excel at the Dallas training center, the counseling seminar at the Indianapolis training center, working on staff at the Oklahoma City training center, teaching Children's Institutes in several cities, and attending the Knoxville conference six summers. She spent 15 subsequent years unlearning those teachings. She blogs at SaraRobertsJones.com and she and her husband homeschool their four children, who have never even seen a Wisdom Booklet.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

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129 Comments

Katie April 29, 2015 Reply

Thank you. This is a helpful article to explain to others who don't really "get" what the problem was (is). Very well written and explained.
rob war April 29, 2015 Reply

Yes, Bill was brilliant because too many pastors who should have known better were not. Bill starts off in his alma mater, Wheaton college (the place Billy Graham came from). His target audience is teenagers and young adults in offering "Biblical" solutions to life's challenges and problems. In looking and reading all the material and articles pre 1980 that RG has republished here, you find that there were very few objections and questions. The one book from 1976 that was somewhat suppressed. Only a hand full of seminar professors raised any real concerns which went unheeded. While Bill did rely on "word of mouth", he also used pastors that supported the seminars to their flocks. Now the real question is, why didn't more of them take a closer look, why didn't more of them ask for the red notebook to examine his teaching, why didn't more of them when that red notebook released unless one attended use that as a red flag? Why did big name pastors come to his defense in 1980 when the early sex scandal became public? That in it of itself should have shut it down instead of allowing it to morph into ATI homeschooling program.

I have more questions. Why is the bulk of the supporters and attendees coming from evangelical/fundamental Churches that believe in the Bible? While there was a wide range of different Christians that attended in the hey day of the seminars, a majority came from "Bible" Churches. Bill's appeal wasn't with mainline denomination Churches that many more conservative type Churches look down on. Furthermore and as the article pointed out, there is a total lack of control with para-church ministries like IBLP in what they teach and lead others to do. Are evangelicals too easily mislead by these sorts of teachers, someone that come along, quotes the Bible right and left and sounds good on the surface. Are para-Church ministries given too much credence? Do they fill the void left in Churches that do not have denominational over site and authority that either mainline Protestant denomination have or even like the Catholic Church? Just in observation in having been in independent non-denominational Churches, that a majority look to these teaching ministries for information, guidance and ideas.
Finally, I do find it rather depressing that there is just so few objections pre-1980. Just a handful of seminary professors. That in it of itself is a rather sad statement. Why wasn't there more questions like I am raising now. Again, Bill was brilliant because those that should have been brilliant were not.
- Linn April 29, 2015 Reply
  
  I grew up in the 60s/70s, and I came to faith in '73. Part of my reason for coming to Christ was that I didn't want to end up like some of my friends: pregnant, on drugs, overdosed (one of my friends died from an OD), dropout..Jesus brought me real hope of change!
  
  My first church was an independent fundamental Bible church (IFCA). They were terrified of what was happening around them, and did not want that to happen to their kids. The solution-pull in the drawbridge and isolate. Then they discovered GOTHARD! He would give them "principles" to deal with the disaster that was the counter-culture movement of the times.
  
  Thankfully, that church came to its senses after the scandal of the 80s and they left Gothardism. But, when life is uncertain, churches often look for easy answers instead of searching the Scriptures to find how to be holy disciples while still engaging with the culture. Churches also hate criticism if they think something is working. This is not a defense of Gothardism; it is only an explanation of how some people can stay with something evil for so long.
  
  As believers, we constantly need to be applying good theology to bad situations. Easy theology/solutions often bring heartache that lasts for generations.
- LynnCD April 29, 2015 Reply
  
  "Why is the bulk of the supporters and attendees coming from evangelical/fundamental Churches that believe in the Bible? While there was a wide range of different Christians that attended in the hey day of the seminars, a majority came from "Bible" Churches. Bill's appeal wasn't with mainline denomination Churches that many more conservative type Churches look down on."
  
  As Ron Henzel writes, it was a tumultuous time, and Bill appeared as an answer man to the rebellion of the 60s. In truth, the Basic Seminar had a lot of good things going for it (in spite of the misuse of the Bible even at the Basic), and people were excited about it.
  
  And Bill was an evangelical, not a liberal mainline type church. It was a movement started within the evangelical movement, and it has tended to stay there.
  
  Secondly, what was behind the scenes was never widely publicized, and many got a version of different than what went down. I was told Bill fired all the people who messed up, sexually, and cleaned house, so to speak.
  
  Then, eventually, Bill destroyed his opposition (Tony Guhr and others) and became unaccountable.
  
  The Basic Seminar had flaws, and the Advanced Seminar and Homeschool program became insular and cult like with even more flaws. Though many people became involved in ATI, not nearly as many people went to the Advanced as those who went to the Basic Seminar. It definitely became a sub-culture. For example - our church was involved in promoting the Basic Seminar for a time, but when news about Bill's increasingly bizarre teaching became known, all support was pulled. There are many evangelical churches who stood their ground at this time and did not support the legalism. There were those who tried to hold Bill accountable, but he dissed them all. And he had legal help all this time.
  
  Some of the more egregious matters in IBLP remind me a little of the cover up in the Sovereign Grace ministries, or when some years back, the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal. Victims are shamed, sometimes they are children who really are afraid to speak for themselves, and when they come forward, the legalities sometimes are not in their favor, and the abusers tend to form a conspiracy of silence. Followers tend to fall in line behind their leaders, especially when their key, admired leaders are being attacked. The victims are easily dismissed in those cases, and the church leaders cover for each other until some kind of critical mass is reached and a scandal erupts, such as what happened in SGM, the Catholic Church, or IBLP, etc. etc..
  - Susan May 30, 2015 Reply
    
    My church was similar. We were quite excited about the Basic Seminar but around 1980 we backed off from it. I've never been sure if the issue was theological or if someone in our leadership learned about the Scandal. So not all churches were fooled but I guess a lot were.
  - Olivia Linton May 26, 2016 Reply
    
    Yes, this was exactly our experience. However, the appeal of being in authority was not easily overcome! Thankful we pulled away in the mid 80's after having attended our third advanced seminar. We just had too many red flags. Unfortunately, the deceit of controlling outward behavior over the heart issues kept a unhealthy grip until our family reached critical mass by the grace of God! Thankfully, healing has taken place. We are still learning about this life of Grace!
- LJ April 29, 2015 Reply
  
  I was raised in a Christian home and first attended an IBYC seminar in 1977 when I went to another church in our area. Looking back now I think that one of the big appeals to the leadership (elders) in our church may have been the control factor that they got when people were following Bill's teachings. I believe some of our elders would not misuse their authority but I believe the main pastor did and we got crazier and crazier. We had to wear head coverings--one of the areas where Bill's teachings and our church's teachings didn't agree.
  
  I do believe as some have written that it gave parents back the control many were losing with the culture of the 60s. My parents were very controlling people so I'm sure they thought it was great to have us under their "umbrella" and dictating a lot of what we could or couldn't do (this was in my early 20s).
  
  The control factor for those in authority was very appealing to many in leadership. They weren't going to question Bill's teachings! At the same time, I'm sure there were those who sincerely and lovingly took their leadership positions very seriously--not as a controlling figure--but wanting to guide and direct those under their authority as our loving Shepherd (Jesus Christ) does.
  - MJ May 3, 2015 Reply
    
    This was a very helpful comment. Thank you. As a former ATI mom I continue to be amazed at the ongoing damage to the lives of our kids....even decades after our involvement. I have to constantly work at making sure I dont live in continual "mommy guilt" for the years I spent giving my life whole heartedly to what I thought would be a "superior way" for our kids.
    
    As my husband and I continue to work through the damage of those years I am just drawn closer to the Savior who loves us and gives us a new day every day. We are thankful for this website and others so we know we are not alone in our grief/healing. THanks.
    - EL May 18, 2016
      
      MJ, I just wanted to say, it's a real blessing to hear a mom's response like yours. I pray that my own will someday chose not to live in the "mommy guilt" you mention, because it's hurting her and her relationship with her kids. "Working through" like you talked about must be really hard (it is for us kids too), but it's SO worth it, especially compared to the consequences of ignoring or denying. Thank you for showing me what it CAN look like...now to pray for that for my family too! God bless you and yours!
  - Susan May 30, 2015 Reply
    
    The early 70's were such a time of rebellion in the US it's not surprising that Christians latched onto an "authority" teaching as an antidote. And of course, it created a whole new potential for abuse for those who embraced it.
- J.B. April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Bill was quite masterful at controlling the flow of information by making sure that the materials were available only to people who had attended the seminars (not to mention the entire IBLP organizational structure). I'd assume that for the most part, those who found out about IBLP through word-of-mouth were most likely introduced by someone who was very committed. But along with and perhaps more critically than that, the structure of the program itself was designed to answer just about any question and provide a solution for just about any problem in any stage of life. In a world with rampant uncertainty and unrest, the feeling of certainty can often be an idol. Maybe that's why so many were so willing to forsake actual study in favor of quick answers. Add to that the very compensatory nature of our culture in general and the magnetism a lot of mainstream Western Christians feel toward anything with a Bible verse slapped on it - and it's not too hard to see just why Bill was so successful for a time.
Toni April 29, 2015 Reply

"He separated the young people from their parents and short-circuited communication between them." Exactly what he said the church wasn't supposed to do. We were supposed to skip youth group and other age-segregated activities and learn alongside/from our fathers.
Eliza April 29, 2015 Reply

Very well said. It definitely is hard to explain, but you explained it in a few paragraphs.
Big J April 29, 2015 Reply

You hit it exactly.
Terrie Yaggi April 29, 2015 Reply

This is so concise and accurate. It is devastating to know what our children were exposed to. They struggle as much as we do to undo the subtle lies that ended up woven into our perceptions of God.

I know that God can and will redeem what the enemy has planted to destroy us when we come to Him literally 'just as we are'....no hype... just brutal honesty. I hold on to that for dear life as our family fights to be free of it all.
[email protected] April 29, 2015 Reply

Well-written post. Thank you!

We spent a few years using ATI homeschooling material. I am so grateful that the Holy Spirit revealed in my heart and with many of my ATI friends as well, that we were parenting for external/image rather than training to the heart. We also realized that although our children seemed to shine in character, our wrong motives that didn't align with scripture were producing performance based kids (and arents!!).We found that legalism had crept into our lives and we sought fervently to add grace into our hearts and homes.

To God be the glory for His grace poured out.
Don Rubottom April 30, 2015 Reply

The only thing missing and the answer to some of the questions of "how" is B.G.'s gift of salesmanship. Every time he promised an "answer" or other great insight, to be shared later, he was using his sales techniques. Every time he put an example up, he was making implied promises "your family will look like this" even though it became obvious that he just made up the facts of the example to fit his teaching goal. He presented many frauds (very dysfunctional families) as examples of "success". His unaccountability is now legendary. All great scam artists have these skills. It does not have to be religiously connected. It can be a real estate scam, a Ponzi scheme or a political movement. Come with me, and I will make you successful!
- Tangent April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Yes, one of Bill's recommended books, one he ssaid was most influential in his early years was a book written by a salesman titled "How I Raised Myself From Failure to Success", I believe. So that's where Bill got his "how to....", a title he used very frequently.
  - J.B. April 30, 2015 Reply
    
    And most likely where he developed his penchant for using the word "success" as a hook.
April Anderson April 30, 2015 Reply

"But, when life is uncertain, churches often look for easy answers instead of searching the Scriptures to find how to be holy disciples while still engaging with the culture."

It isn't only church leaderships that fall to the temptation of easy solutions. Is it because God's desire is relationship with his children and lack of true dependence on Him the reasons that following others' ideas often backfires? I've often been struck by Christians who seek the advice and suggestions of other Christians rather than spend time with God both in prayer and in the Bible asking Him for His particular guidance. Could that be the reason that so many families have been decimated by the IBYC ministries? If so, it shows a lack of true spiritual maturity in our Christian community.
Michael April 30, 2015 Reply

Did anyone else pick up on the aura that Bill seemed to have about himself at Knoxville in the early 90's? It seemed like people literally almost worshiped him. I remember when he walked into a room, people would just stare at him like he was some sort of angelic being. It's sad how many people listened to his lies and took them for truth. I'm glad my family finally saw the truth and pulled me out.
- J.B. April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Back when my parents were heavily involved with the program, my mother always commented on how Bill never had any gray hair and attributed it to his obedience to God.
  - kevin May 1, 2015 Reply
    
    "Back when my parents were heavily involved with the program, my mother always commented on how Bill never had any gray hair and attributed it to his obedience to God."
    
    Yeah, maybe that's what it was...... well, then again, maybe more likely Grecian Formula.
- The Quiet One April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  I remember being in the all-family evening sessions in Knoxville and how when the crowd burst into applause, he'd stop talking and let them clap, just drinking in the adoration. I also remember him gazing intently up at the Pre-Excel choir I was singing in - the next day he came and said that he had seen many bright eyes in the choir, but some of us needed to work on making our eyes brighter. He also emphasized that we weren't supposed to make friends but disciples. A few years later, I attended Sound Foundations. After the final concert, we lined up to have our hymn books signed by Gothard. The pretty blond girl in front of me was complimented on her bright eyes (Gothard said he had been watching her as she sang), and her father was told that she should come to Headquarters. He barely glanced at me, asked if I like the program but didn't listen to my answer, and quickly handed my book back after he signed it. He was so different and abrupt with me, I wondered what I had done wrong. Now I know - I'm not blond.
  - Rachel April 30, 2015 Reply
    
    I'm embarrassed to remember as a not-quite-16-year-old, I stood in line at Northwoods after a girls counseling seminar (1989?) to have BG sign my Bible-- it was a big deal! I also got autographs from Rick Lambert, Jim Sammons, Rob Robbins, and Robert Welch. And then a couple years later, ripped those pages out of my Bible because I felt so juvenile and disillusioned!
    - SiliconValleyGal May 2, 2015
      
      I've never heard of anyone but the author offer to autograph a book. Sounds like these mere mortals were acting in a far more juvenile manner than the 15 year old by presuming to take the place of the rightful Author.
    - Rachel May 2, 2015
      
      And in all fairness to those other men whose names I mentioned, I have no idea where they are in life now-- it could very well be that they are embarrassed and disillusioned as well. They had all given themselves to the man and the program. . . I pray that their eyes have been opened and that they are healing from this, too.
- kevin May 1, 2015 Reply
  
  "I remember when he walked into a room, people would just stare at him like he was some sort of angelic being. "
  
  The Mayor, from Max Lucado's "You Are Special", so very much reminds me of Bill Gothard. And Wemmickville is so very much like IBLP. It may not have been directed specifically at IBLP, but it clearly targets their type of outward appearance, works based merit system.
  It's a cute little story about God's grace. My kids love it.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq3jDgSqLUo
Don Rubottom April 30, 2015 Reply

He clearly basked in the glow. But sit at his table and challenge anything he taught and the sweetness would evaporate into cold rejection.
- Don Rubottom April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  /\ That was in reply to Michael's observation.
Tangent April 30, 2015 Reply

And he seemed to accept the adulation sooooo humblely!
[email protected] April 30, 2015 Reply

I made a comment previously. I've continued to ponder on the hurts and damage done. I wrote a blogpost yesterday prior to reading your post that may encourage many ATI families to restore the hearts of their children. Post if you feelis helpful.

http://cultivatingahome.com/2015/04/29/restoring-hearts/
- JPU April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Thank you, Rhonda. I do remember feeling that way as a child/teen, and especially as a firstborn. In my family, we are learning to talk these out and see from each other's perspectives. Articles like this are, indeed, a good start to healing, even if it's too late for correcting one's childhood/adolescence. I'm sure it will be encouraging to others in different ways.
David Pigg April 30, 2015 Reply

This will be said for what its worth;anyone seriously connected with Bill Gothard,even if it was many years ago,and gave him volition,cooperation and assent,will have to deal in whatever measure they dabbled in it,with witchcraft.Witchcraft carefully hidden behind a mechanistic formulistic theology;witchcraft behind the clean cut image of wholesome kids advocating a "righteous" America.But all the more evil because it masquerades behind Christian platitudes,contrived anecdotes,big name Christian supporters,and testimonials laced with the culpabilty and sincerity of ardent disciples.Thrown by the wayside are food deprived "rebellious" young women[molested],overworked young men some with ruined health,chained to their bunk beds for "disciplinary action".In a last dying gasp of trying to legitimize submission to false,pagan,and fallen authority,the false teacher John Bevere wrote a book around the year 2000 called"Under Cover",which dangerously manipulates people in an inoculously hypothetical idealism,which becomes the bait to torture your soul.Derek Prince after the Fort Lauderdale Fives experiment in submitted body fellowship confessed that he was subject to a spirit of witchcraft for several years until leaving .Gothardism is much much more subtle and much worse.Renounce it in the name of Jesus resurrection.How demeaning would someone's precious life be if you read on his tombstone "He lived a life of submission".The suggestion that there is a connection to the underworld of demonic opression from Gothardism was brought forth by Guy S. some months back.Well,here it is again.
- Heidi April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  Interesting take David,
  
  I do believe there was demonic oppression involved. In the world of witchcraft there is casting of spells, and carefully following steps to do so. How like Gothard's program to manipulate God: Follow these 7 steps, etc. and xyz with result, guaranteed.
- Sue April 30, 2015 Reply
  
  David, you really have been and heard some sad things. I agree with your comments about witchcraft, how else does one describe the behavior of so many good minded people. Pride does lead to some dangerous places.
  
  On another note My daughter was encouraged and went to Eagle Springs because it became apparent she has been molested when she was young. While there worse happened, going hungry for long periods of time, being locked away, had demons cast out of her, ate food from the food bank that was not healthy even though we paid a fair price for her to get fed and receive spiritual and emotional healing. She got something way worse.
  
  We are ashamed and are grateful God has restored her. Grateful to be recovering and hopefully wiser to know better than to be taken captive.
  
  Thank you for your caution,
- WendyA May 3, 2015 Reply
  
  I'm not sure that I agree with you on this one.
  
  First of all, God clearly has compassion for those who are deceived. And either Jesus's sacrifice covers ALL of my sin, or it covers none. Once repented, that sin is wiped away, forgotten. That's in the Bible, several times.
  
  * "As far as east is from the west, so far has he removed our sins..." (Ps. 103:12)
  * "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness." (1 Jn. 1:9)
  * "He will cast all our sins in the depths of the sea." (Micah 7:19)
  * "I am he who blots out your transgressions; I will remember your sins no more." (Is. 43:25)
  
  In addition, it may be that those of us who were involved with Gothard need to repent, confess, and ask forgiveness for that involvement in whatever form it took (e.g., idolizing a man, failure to discern false teaching, teaching falsely), but I don't think that our association with him equates to dabbling in "witchcraft."
  
  "Witchcraft" in the Bible is very specifically related to specific occult practices (e.g., divination, necromancy). Just because the Bible COMPARES something to witchcraft does not mean that it DEFINES that thing as witchcraft. Rebellion is LIKE the sin of witchcraft, but it is NOT witchcraft, it's rebellion. Trusting in Gothard instead of God might be akin to idolatry, but it's not witchcraft.
  - rob war May 3, 2015 Reply
    
    very well put, agree.
  - MatthewS May 3, 2015 Reply
    
    well said
  - David Pigg May 4, 2015 Reply
    
    I'm not implying that those subjected to Gothardism willingly used witchcraft,I'm implying that those subjected to Gothardism very unwillingly were subjected to some degree to it.Read Gal.3:1.Protestantism can be a very "rational" faith in a bad way,putting God in a box a humanistic,denominationally subjected box,WOF even capitalized on this thru false application of word memorization word mechanics,and blanket assumptions.Gothard in the Galatian manner would deceive us and I was one of them,into thinking that if scripture is applied,our ability to "qualify" for whatever we wanted was built into the mechanics of his fallen rational logic.So no mysticism of the Divine,only the falling back to keeping the law and there may be a connection to the "beggarly elements" of Gal.Top that off with Gothard's hideous,putrid fruits...perversion,lies,deception,suppression,wrapped up inside the guise of clean cut outward moral perfection,a cleanercut America without beards,facial hair and immodest dress.Now how dare anyone accuse him of witchcraft?To what degree do we need deliverance?I don't know but the waters were too murky,the darkness too great,for our naive trusting hearts.I'm calling him out on it,but not the victims.
    - MatthewS May 4, 2015
      
      I can't speak for WendyA but the reason I appreciated her pushback is that I think it makes a stronger case against someone like Bill when the people standing against him are able to be self-policing enough to rule out unreasonable charges as well as rule in reasonable charges. It is possible to use a broad enough of a definition of "witchraft" to force it to apply, but in my estimation, doing so weakens any real case against either Bill or witchcraft. I can imagine that someone might draw analogies or comparisons, but to call Bill out to repent of witchcraft does not seem grounded in truth to me. That is my opinion and by expressing it, I do not mean to condemn or try to control your opinion.
    - rob war May 4, 2015
      
      Bill did have a form of mysticism to his teaching. He often talked about objects such as cabbage patch dolls, electric guitars etc as demonic objects and suggested that if such items were in the home, that they be destroyed. Yes a big side that most people did get caught up in reduced Christianity to a mechanical give/take/result type of faith but he also did have a fear mongering side that promoted objects could carry or be demonic.
    - Don Rubottom May 5, 2015
      
      Thanks Matthew. I think we have waded through the muck enough to share a consensus that it was natural religion: do this and that will happen for you, be loyal to God and He will do for you... And yet, is not witchcraft but a dressed up form of natural religion? Formulas, steps, special incantations ("the iniquity of my fathers"?), guarantees? I think the specific accusation may not be fair but it does highlight these particular faithless, graceless aspects of Gothardism.
    - The Quiet One May 5, 2015
      
      This is an interesting discussion. I don't know as much on this subject as others, so I have just been reading. However, I did want to share one observation that I made in another context (outside ATI). Legalistic religion (salvation through one's efforts) and occult practices are closely correlated. I am not the type that sees demons behind every temptation or adverse event - and I hate it when people attribute mental illnesses like schizophrenia to demonic activity. Nonetheless, there is a relation between religions of works and occult practices. Even Islam has an occult side.
    - rob war May 5, 2015
      
      Yes, after some study of Islam, I see a number of curious correlations between IBLP and Islam, the emphasis on authority and obedience, a harsh view of God which is more master/slave, second class status of women, onlong list of rules to keep. etc etc. Occult practices emphasize the contact and conjure of spirits. Islam does not truely teach that in that the emphasis is on the Koran as being the big miracle of Islam. Trying to contact spirits, the dead etc is forbidden in Islam. Yes we certainly can see the diabolical in Islam with the current violence. But that is different than occult practices that contact spirits, the dead, the other world.
    - The Quiet One May 5, 2015
      
      @ Rob War: Research Sufism and marabouts. The phrase 'like a whirling dervish' comes from the Sufi practice of spinning in circles in order to reach the point of perfection.
    - rob war May 5, 2015
      
      I was aware of this, it is more common in Turkey which is the center. but I'm not sure how this is related to the occult? There are mystical segments in Christianity as well. But mysticism does not equal the occult or occultic practices. Diabolical teaching or heresy doesn't make Bill a "witch" any more than correlations with Islam make Bill a secret Muslim.
    - The Quiet One May 6, 2015
      
      @rob war: Sufism is a practice of Islam, not a sect, and may be found wherever Islam is. And practices such as going into trances and levitation are more than just mysticism. Marabouts are associated with Sufism in North and West Africa, and are known for making charms.
    - rob war May 6, 2015
      
      Thanks Quite One for the clarification. In reading a little more about Surfism, it is curious that they have ties to Jewish Hasidim mysticism as well from the middle ages. The making of charms by the Marabouts of Africa is thought to come from pre-Islamic practices and at least the Wiki article said that this sort of practice is frowned upon in orthodox Islam. But thanks again.
    - Michele May 8, 2015
      
      Working in an Islamic culture I see many parallels in works based religions. This makes sense because the Father of lies always wants us to try to save ourselves because he knows we can't. What did he say in the garden... Then you will be like God.... Basically be god, find your own way. Only in relationship and love through Jesus is there true salvation. This is why I'm not surprised at all the similarities I see between works based/legalistic religions
  - Standing In The Gap May 25, 2015 Reply
    
    After being raised in an ATI family I have finally broken free, and a years ago I was praying and asking the Lord how to pray for my parents who are still actively involved with ATI. The word "witchcraft" popped into my mind, I was shocked.
    
    I wanted confirmation that the Lord had really given me this word, so I researched a bit and found that deliverance ministries would actually pray against the spirit of witchcraft for people who try to control others.
    
    I took that as a confirmation and have used that when praying for my parents and others who are still deceived by ATI.
    
    However, I agree with the others who have said that to come right out and scream "witchcraft" when trying to explain ATI to other is not the best idea. This is just something that I believe the Lord shared with me privately so I that I can pray more effectively for my parents.
    - David Pigg May 26, 2015
      
      There will never be an outward similarity between Gothardism and WICA.There may never be proof certain understood,across the board witchcraft objects assimulated,placated,etc.,but in a subtle inward way,[and this is not a mere exercize in semantics],Gothard harnassed a force which was not the Holy Spirit,and used that force to compel,bully,overpower,pacify,and oppress.In the use of deception,he champiioned the outward,surface,squeky clean,supramoral,only to put countless many to a bondage that could only be equated to none other than the implied consequences of what happens in the inner,the internal emotional seat of the heart.It is in that realm that the travesty took its greatest perverted violation.
- rob war May 3, 2015 Reply
  
  I would take anything Derek Prince says with a grain of salt. His so called spiritual insight is suspect at best. Consider the source and don't put stock in it.
  - rob war May 4, 2015 Reply
    
    someone that had a a major cornerstone of their "ministry" deliverance cannot then turn around and claim that they became involved in the shepherding movement under a "witchcraft spirit" as one of the founders. There is something amiss. You can't have it both ways.
- Karen May 6, 2015 Reply
  
  It seems to me the common thread between authoritarian schemes like Gothard's with its often "magical" interpretations of Scripture (and a close spiritual cousin, "Name it, claim it" and "Prosperity Gospel" theologies), on the one hand, and overt occult witchcraft on the other is the desire for control and a mechanistic understanding of the nature of prayer and the spiritual life. All seek to manipulate what is deemed to be "God" or "the spirits" and also other people to shore up one's own frail ego and serve one's own desires. Of course, the sort of teaching that comes out of ministries like Derek Prince's isn't without its problems as well (as others point out)--it seems to me there's an awful lot of chaff mixed in with the grain in such teaching. A lot of it falls rather too close to my comfort to the "Name it, claim it" false teaching--similar sometimes "magical" understandings of how demons can influence and control our decisions and behavior. Definitely, I'd agree there's some "bewitchment" going on in delusional spiritual schemes like Gothard's in the sense it is talked about in Galatians, though. Any time there is false teaching, there are demons exploiting our natural (legitimate) human needs to entice us into a web of delusion to bring us into bondage--it's as old as the Garden of Eden, folks!
  
  Also, there's a lot of syncretism not only in Islam/Sufism (with animism), but also in parts of South America where Roman Catholic practices and beliefs are combined with local traditional religions, and where Protestant expressions of Christian faith are melded with "New Thought" in "Prosperity Gospel" teaching, and in more explicitly "New Age" variations on that theme.
  - David Pigg May 11, 2015 Reply
    
    Thank you for your always thought provoking comments Karen.The influence of witchcraft in Gothardism has always been less overt than covert;and here lies the smokescreen of darkness that I feel has succeeded in subliminally protecting occult oppression with a masquerade of ecumenical religious posturing,always insinuated by fear."Go on get out from underneath that umbrella of authority and...get cancer,lose your job,i.e.,a curse for disobeying my formula.Nightmares of those whom Bill exploited, trying to get away from "Bill's kingdom" being clutched,grabbed,pulled[Ruth's story].A blanket of passivity fed subliminally to not question authority,[vested while Bill engaged in depraved sexual molesting], propped up scriptures for the purpose of maintaining obedience to false,fallen,and pagan authority.A Fallen Rationalism,centering on the mind void of being influenced by the Spirit, memorizing the "Gothard Mantras",promising "moral freedom",while Bill constantly[could not?] would not tell the truth.In the spirit realm there are no denominations to offer up gaurenteed protection,only when direct,willful,known deception,goes on long enough,then will entities come to which this mode of behavior is all too familiar.Though there may be no tarot cards,or alter,the line somewhere was crossed.How easy is it to believe the truth,having been indoctrinated by lies for years?Real easy?No sweat?The abandonment of the true faith insinuates otherwise.
    - Karen May 26, 2015
      
      David Pigg, I just saw your comment here. I can't help be reminded by the phenomena you describe of Job's "comforters" who wanted to draw a magical, mechanistic line between God's blessing/punishment and the circumstances that befall us in this life, regardless of the evidence to the contrary (in a person's faithfulness to God). Too many Christians fall for that simplistic "traditional" religion because they fail to read Scripture through the life, teachings and Spirit of Christ. I am always deeply comforted by God's response to this in Job 42:7-8. The way "Word of Faith" adherents interpret the book of Job turns its true message on its head to say the very opposite (they suppose Job's troubles happened because he was "fearful", he didn't "confess" words of faith). It's truly shameful how they pervert the word of God and tragic for those who fall for this false teaching.
    - LynnCD May 26, 2015
      
      Karen, did you know Gothard, in his early years, taught that Job's calamities came on him because he was fearful? And in later seminars, he dropped the reference to Job, but still continued to promote the idea that by our own fear we can bring unnecessary trouble on ourselves? I so very distinctly remember the early teaching, and how he later dropped trying to tie Job to the idea of fear itself bringing on trouble.
    - Karen May 26, 2015
      
      Hi Lynn,
      
      No, I didn't know that specifically, but it doesn't surprise me because I see so many parallels between BG's false teaching about Scripture and the "Word of Faith" movement's. In fact, my high school Bible study leader and his wife, who got into the "Word of Faith" movement after I had gone on to college, attended some BG seminars early in their relationship and were trying to implement his principles. They ran into difficulty around his legalistic teaching on divorce because the wife was divorced before she recommitted her life to Christ, and this was her second marriage.
esbee April 30, 2015 Reply

" Basic Life Principles"

"Basic"- easy, simple
"Life"- we all want a good one
"Principles"- the rules we follow that will get us that perfect life!
Leslie April 30, 2015 Reply

1 Samuel 8:6 explains a lot
Chris May 3, 2015 Reply

As a Christian man recovering from similar circumstances, I think that something good may come out of going through trials and tribulations like ours.

Sexual repression was such a huge spiritual issue for me for the better part of my adult life that, since God healed it in a relatively short period of time, I now know that there isn't anything that God cannot heal us from if we let Him. I have no reason to doubt Him. I also think I may understand the mindset of people like Gothard and Joshua P(Harris)ee. It's basically the same mindset of the Judaizing "dogs" that Paul rebuked in Galatians: misery loves company. Their own sexual repression and hang-ups overwhelmed them to the point where they wanted to impose it on others, and based on the many testimonies about sexual dysfunction and marital incompatibility I've read, they succeeded. Subsequently, Gothard "parted ways" with the group when tales of sexual harassment came to the surface. Repressed sexuality will find other ways to come out sooner or later, and they more than likely won't be good.

Let's all pray that by Christ's stripes our religious stripes may be healed.
David Pigg May 4, 2015 Reply

This would be for Matt S.,As a moderator for this website,it would be very wise to use more discretion than a commenter for the sake of inviting a broad spectrum of viewers;you can't afford to risk so radical a viewpoint as what I have suggested.The impact and implications stagger me who am too unable to pinpoint just exactly where witchcraft may have had influence in his ministry.As for the other comment I'm not saying everyone needs deliverance who cooperated to some degree.I wish I could tell you I'm totally free,though;I wish I could tell you that now since I had discernment enough to know Gothardism was wrong[witchcraft isn't totally dominating],then Gothardism now has no more subjective influence;[feelings of condemnation,guilt,worthlessness,not enough self discipline,etc.]But I cannot.Gothard accused Tony Guhr of being an "agent of satan",when all he did was look for the truth.Who was the real agent of satan when Tony was kicked out of his own [church]?Where is the line drawn between volitional knowledge of evil while doing it,and being on the receiving end of deception while the undercurrents of evil are actively ongoing?And this for forty years?Better be careful to consider how those undercurrents are unable to disappear from certain radar.
- rob war May 5, 2015 Reply
  
  witchcraft is a specific practice of occultic practices that involved use of magical and spiritual powers as practiced by pagan religions. Not all evil is witchcraft. Bill Gothard himself took one verse in Proverbs that compares rebellion as the sin of witchcraft and then clobbered others with it. Now whether you personally are defining all evil as witchcraft is your choice but even those that practice this do not use such a broad definition. You might do better to view Bill not as a wizard (male witch) which is a stretch but as either a heretic or one that taught heresy and used a mixture of different heresies and false teaching. No one here can know his heart but discussion can certainly focus on his teaching and it's effects. Again, I would caution in using Derek Prince as a reference. What happen to Tony is also in the past and if his Church ex-communicated him, those behind it will have to answer to God for it. Bill did teach against having items that might in the remotest way be associated with the occult which doesn't support your premise of him practicing witchcraft.
  - Don Rubottom May 5, 2015 Reply
    
    Rob War, Bill's excessive fear, or the fears he nurtured in us, of such objects makes me more likely to consider the charge well founded than less. He said to keep separate form the opposite sex and did the opposite of what he taught. It would not surprise me in the least to find him in possession of a bunch of objects that he would have chastised us for possessing. (Mere souvenirs of his world travels, of course.)
    - Elizabeth D May 5, 2015
      
      I agree, Don; in fact, I think it’s practically a given. And in light of what I'll call severe misogyny, neither would intense family dysfunction at a very early age – significantly different from the traditional stories – surprise me.
    - rob war May 5, 2015
      
      yes, excessive fear or fear mongering which Bill did over a number of things is diabolical but even given that, this doesn't make him a practicing witch/wizard. That is a bit of a stretch. It would be better to focus on what is wrong with his teaching. That is Matt S and Wendy's point.
Joe May 5, 2015 Reply

I agree with all the points made in this article. I do not feel that the considerable successes of IBLP/ATI are due to Bill's brilliance or any nefarious orchestration. Bill is not a great man. He is a product demanded by a large group of well meaning Christians. He is charming and he believes his own nonsense. What makes him dangerous is that he is willing to twist truth to support his views. Then when he proclaims those views as revelation from God (which he may honestly believe), stupid people listen and follow. He gains support and power and attributes that to God's blessing which only reinforces the cycle.

G.K. Chesterton wrote: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." My parents took that as a challenge and found in ATI a program that they thought could facilitate that. All they wanted was to obey God and raise godly children. It was not easy and it did not work. They were stupid.

We were not duped by a genius, but by ourselves.
- Elizabeth D May 5, 2015 Reply
  
  Hi, Joe. I think (~my opinion~) you underestimate the motives of an immensely talented master manipulator. I agree that he is charming (based on accounts; I’ve never met him and went to just one seminar over 30 years ago) and even that he believes his own nonsense. But truth-twisting is only as dangerous as far as the receiver’s vulnerability, and yes, scads of people have regrettably missed scads of red flags over the years.
  
  If anything is evident from the personal accounts and documentation on this site and others, it is that BG lies. Not just a little something here and there, but willfully and predictably – a way of life. He IS a liar; liars lie. He lies to control, to manipulate, to evade, and to construct his own reality that he has brilliantly sold to and enforced on others. I believe that he believes many of his own lies, but that doesn’t change that he is a liar and he lies. You can call bad judgment on his followers (and they will be accountable for their own actions), but they are NOT responsible for making him into the liar he is.
  
  I suggest that what makes him dangerous is his characteristic disregard for other human beings. He has (from accounts) invaded the very personhood of countless people via verbal, emotional, spiritual, financial, and sexual exploitation. And at least by proxy, you can add physical to the list. He has wounded and left for dead – for selfish ambition and void of empathy. This is abuse – abuse in all its revolting configurations. BG is most certainly not a great man, but a man of great talent that he has shamefully used for his own glory rather than for the Lord he claims to serve but sadly appears to not even know. I think it’s a far more complex situation than just positive reinforcement for a misguided truth-twister by “stupid people.”
  
  It's a tough call, but I call 'em like I see 'em.
Leslie May 5, 2015 Reply

I have heard the phrase for so many years "rebellion is like witchcraft". What exactly is rebellion? Questioning Authority? Asking Questions? Ungodly people can try to make it mean whatever they want so they can manipulate.it would be interesting to find out what that passage means to those of us who have studiedvScripture.
- Karen May 6, 2015 Reply
  
  My guess would be Scripturally "rebellion" (as in the Garden of Eden) in this sense simply means insisting upon being one's own "God/god," rather than accepting the fundamental starting point of any genuinely "orthodox" Christian faith that Jesus Christ/the Trinity is God and I am not! It means refusing to embrace in all its implications the fundamental distinction between Uncreated (God) and created reality (the latter being radically contingent and dependent upon God in every way for its existence and to fulfill its intended purpose). My guess is it would also be more or less synonymous with "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"--as in an active denial (whether inward or overt) of the spiritually obvious!
  
  I certainly don't believe it is intended to refer to normal developmental behavior (most evident in 3 year olds and teenagers), fueled by the developmental need to individuate and engage/assert one's own sense of self in distinction from others and to forge one's own sense of self as a unique identity amongst other human persons. These are necessary steps to becoming a mature adult, capable of knowing the difference between myself and another, between what are truly my responsibilities and what are another's, and freely developing bonds of love with God and others, such that I become capable of self-giving in the healthy sense.
- Abraham Serafino May 7, 2015 Reply
  
  Rebellion is, technically, a form of witchcraft, and vice versa. But of course Samuel was referring to rebellion against God, not the prophet Samuel himself.
  
  Think of it this way - today we have The Word of God in a book - which contains the Word of God that was spoken by Samuel to king Saul. At that time, all the more Word of God Saul had was the scriptures that existed up to that point (most likely the pentateuch and possibly the book of Judges, as he was a national leader), and whatever the prophets said. Since orthodox Christians hold to a "closed" canon, we no longer have Bible-writers among us, relating the word of God. And even if we did, they wouldn't expect us to follow them like religious leaders - actually they wouldn't expect anything.
  
  The modern-day equivalent of Samuel would be a person who came up to you on the street and read a book of the Bible to you out loud. No goals, no expectations, not trying to start a movement or teach you how to live your life. Just standing there, telling you what God has said, without any commentary.
  - DavidM May 8, 2015 Reply
    
    What I Sam 15:23 says is that rebellion is like witchcraft and arrogance is like idolatry. "Is like" is a comparison, not an equation. Such a statement cannot be used to say that rebellion is witchcraft (or vice versa). That things are similar (in this case, because they both are a rejection of God's command) does not make them the same thing.
Abraham Serafino May 7, 2015 Reply

"But people didn’t sell everything they owned so they could live near Gothard’s own personal church, as many cult leaders encourage."

I actually know a few people who did this.

"Even today, with so much evidence of Gothard’s false teaching, inappropriate behavior, and refusal to deal with sin, it’s difficult to explain how we are so damaged."

The most deleterious doctrine at ATI was the docrine on The Umbrella of Authority. It effectively took away your own responsibility for your behavior and placed it in the hands of those who "God had placed in authority" over you. I was taught that even if my authority told me to sin, it was my spiritual authority who would be held accountable for that sin. But if I disobeyed, then *I* would be held accountable for my disobedience. Scary stuff, especially when you put corrupt "authorities" into the mix.

The other issue I took with IBLP doctrine during my short exposure to it was their definitions. They used to give us words like "Faith" and "Joy" printed on cards and we were supposed to memorize a specifically-worded definition with no apparent basis in scripture. These definitions were then treated as the internal, unwritten Chatecism that we were expected to use as a lens to interpret scripture. If you want to re-write the Bible, do it by redefining the words it uses to fit your purposes. I saw right through that one, though... and didn't stick around for the rest.
- SaraJ May 8, 2015 Reply
  
  Abraham, I'm the author of the article... and you're right about people selling everything they had to be "involved in the ministry." Because I wanted to keep it short, I didn't get into all that. It was the same effect as giving up everything to be part of his church, but that's not what it *looked* like. It looked like they were moving because of a job. The majority of families just stayed where they were and paid to have the teachings mailed to them.
  
  Also, good point about the definitions. He actively redefined words and had us learn that definition. That's why outsiders could read his stuff and not understand why it was so twisted.
  
  And yup, the Umbrella of Authority was the operating system that the whole program ran on.
Aj May 7, 2015 Reply

Bill Gothard is a man. It's not his fault the people he taught were traumatized and miss led. He taught a higher standard and an honest way of living. If you have been hurt by the message its your own fault. Could've just read your own bibles and learned the truth. He never directed anyone away from the scriptures. Y'all just wanted a king.... Peoples alliance to anyone other than God puts a wall between them and Gods plan for them. If you have problems because of your past experiences, having a man to point your finger at instead of being responsible for your own demise (or progress) is really handy. The scary part is God knows the truth. I've seen people self destruct and struggle while people with the same teaching grow and thrive just like anything (college, church, culture, ect...)
Have a great day~ Zj
- LynnCD May 8, 2015 Reply
  
  "Bill Gothard is a man. It's not his fault the people he taught were traumatized and miss led."
  
  Why then does James the brother of the Lord say not many should become teachers for the teachers themselves will incur a stricter judgment?
  
  It doesn't say the followers who are misled will - it says the teachers will.
  
  I do agree that adults are responsible for their actions, and to remain an adult and point your finger all your life at Bill will be to remain stymied in your own walk with God, but remember countless children who were subjected to this in their formative years - many from birth. For the adults, your answer is not correct, given the words of James, and for children, your answer is downright cruel, in my opinion.
  - Aj May 8, 2015 Reply
    
    Teachers do have a huge responsibility. But that's not a lot of ATIians problem. Am I saying Bill didn't have short comings? No. People blindly followed and gave their lives to changing themselves to match what Bill believed. But what Bill believed was more than an outward appearance and life of service; it was a pursuit of God. Some people just caught onto the product and what Gods direction for Bill looked like instead of what pursuing God looked like for them. Thus, the children didn't have much hope. When parents are deceived children are destined for disaster.
    - rob war May 11, 2015
      
      you are blaming the victims but not the source of the victimization which was Bill's cradle to grave all encompassing teaching. If Bill truly was pursuing God and what he taught really from the Bible, then there would not be so many with destroyed lives and faith and broken families due to his teaching.
  - Jay Rowland May 8, 2015 Reply
    
    Aj, Bill Gothard did not pursue God. He pursued himself. If you read the facts throughout the articles on this site, including statements by Gothard himself, you will get the sense that his heart and head are corrupt. You will certainly see that his teachings are corrupt...probably because they flowed from his heart and his head.
    
    That sounds harsh. But the harshness comes from certainty. We no longer dance around the edges wondering if Gothard was intentionally misleading or wrong. Perhaps we can wonder to what Nth degree he was intentional. But the fact that he doesn't truly humble himself before God is clear. Gothard has lived to serve himself and to be served by others.
- DavidM May 8, 2015 Reply
  
  Insert (as one example) "Joseph Smith" in place of "Bill Gothard". Does what you said still apply? Why or why not?
- Karen May 8, 2015 Reply
  
  AJ, I think your opinions here reflect a fair degree of ignorance (or denial?). How familiar are you with the Scriptures? It doesn't seem to me that you have been reading them very carefully.
  
  Only God can say how much fault is due any of us (and we all err), but as others have pointed out, false teachers bear responsibility for those they mislead--greater responsibility than those who do not teach. In fact, God holds all of us responsible for the influence we may have upon others--both for good or ill. Read Mark 9:41-42. Read what Jesus' says when he confronts the hypocritical and false teachers of Israel in Matthew 23. Consider that these were those most outwardly dedicated to God--the most studious and observant of the OT Scriptures--yet Jesus could see their hearts, their hypocrisy and lawless oppression of others. He told them plainly their inner corruption and their oppression of others destined them for hell. Contemplate the criteria Jesus teaches will be used at the Final Judgment of all us in Matthew 25. How we treat others reflects what is truly in our hearts--whether our faith is sincere or lacking. Also, 2 Peter 2 and Jude speak with great clarity about the destructiveness of false teaching and the condemnation that awaits those who lead others astray by their teaching and example.
- LynnCD May 9, 2015 Reply
  
  "Bill Gothard is a man. It's not his fault the people he taught were traumatized . . .. He taught a higher standard and an honest way of living."
  
  I think I missed this the first time around. You're kidding, right? Or are you a troll? It's the young women's FAULT that he played footise with them and had a series of quasi-romantic and physically affectionate relationships with them?
  
  It wasn't just his teaching that was traumatic; it was his behavior.
- Don Rubottom May 11, 2015 Reply
  
  Can a dishonest man teach an honest way of living?
  Jesus did not think as you do, AJ:
  "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
  “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!"
  Woe to Bill Gothard.
  - Leslie May 12, 2015 Reply
    
    Well said, Don.
Sunflower May 8, 2015 Reply

I don't for one moment believe that BG believed his own stuff. Deceivers are actors and they are good at it. If you read any of Lundy Bancroft's writings, he leads recovery groups of abusers who have tons of excuses for what they have done, the biggest being that they couldn't help it and don't understand the hurt they cause. Then when he puts on a skit portraying abuse, they all sit forward in their seats and correct the actors with, "No, no, you can hurt her much better if you do it this way....." They know exactly what they are doing.
- Joe May 12, 2015 Reply
  
  Bill Gothard is a liar and an abuser, he is a narcissist, an exploiter, and may be a sociopath. He taught lots of nonsense. I said he believes it because - why not? It worked for him.
  
  Not saying it happened just this way, but imagine this scenario.
  Bill Gothard is a young man who loves God and reads his Word. He sees that God, in His Word, promises blessings for certain beliefs and behaviors. He tries that out by memorizing scripture and it seems to give him success in school. - Cause and Effect by divine reward - nonsense reinforced. Bill's family believes the right things and are well to do - blessed by God. He sees friends and inner city youth that are not as blessed as he is and naturally wants to help them achieve the same level of happiness and wealth that he has. He extrapolates some basic and non-optional principles for living from scripture and begins teaching them to others. People love it and tell him it is great. They tell their friends and more people come - good people that love God and want to serve Him and are happy to finally have some clear directions how to take this love for God (which will bring blessings and happiness) to the next level.
  This seminar ministry grows. People pay and also give money - further evidence of God's divine blessing on this teaching and teacher. People give testimony of the message working and helping them. Bill must really have some direct communication with the divine. Staff is hired, property is developed, lives are touched, the money pours in - God is really working. Sure there are detractors, not everyone gets it, that's okay - some people just aren't ready to fully surrender to God - leave them behind. There are plenty of people that hang on his every word and are amazed at his insight.
  When real troubles hit, he takes time to really seek God and find out why. He is just a man and has some secret sin in his life. God must be using these times to really clarify and purify him. Repentance achieved, now moving on to more work for God who is really blessing now like never before - after all - if Satan isn't attacking, then you probably aren't doing anything for the Kingdom anyway.
  New programs continue to be developed. They are obviously from God because Bill and his chosen staff pray for them and people buy them and applaud and testify of God's blessing through them. Bill knows he isn't perfect, but neither were Peter and Paul and he is doing God's work, which is the main thing.
  
  He is certainly a manipulative exploiter and has caused much damage, but I don't say that his motivation was evil or to abuse. All can be explained to my satisfaction without that.
  - Karen May 14, 2015 Reply
    
    Joe says, "Bill Gothard is a liar and an abuser, he is a narcissist, an exploiter, and may be a sociopath. He taught lots of nonsense. I said he believes it because - why not? It worked for him. . . .
    
    "He is certainly a manipulative exploiter and has caused much damage, but I don't say that his motivation was evil or to abuse."
    
    This sounds like doublespeak to me. Do you even understand what the definitions of "narcissist" and "sociopath" are? No one can meet the criteria for those personality disorders and not have motives to intentionally exploit and abuse others.
    
    On the other hand, both of these disorders are usually deep rooted in early childhood experiences over which the child had no control, so only God can say how truly culpable someone is. But, we shouldn't kid ourselves about conscious intention to do evil in such cases (even if the evildoer refuses to define what he does as "evil"--if God defines it as evil, it is evil. The moral compass of the narcissist and the sociopath is broken, and their definitions of what is right and good will not stand up to scrutiny in the clear light of Christ).
    - Joe May 14, 2015
      
      Elvis Presley thought he could move clouds with the power of his mind. His paid entourage knew better than to correct his delusion. Bill thinks he is gifted from God with a message and a mission. He tells people he is accountable to God and his church and his board. If his paid entourage called him into question they were replaced. Bill thinks everything is a spiritual battle and he is on the right side.
      
      In a physical battle, a general may order an artillery bombardment of an enemy position. There may be collateral damage. His own soldiers and innocent civilians may be wounded or die.
      Is it his motivation to cause those injuries? Or is it just a part of the struggle, albeit regrettable. He does not set out to injure innocents, his orders from on high are to win the war.
      
      Call it doublespeak if you like, but to me there is a difference in lacking empathy and wanting to cause abuse.
    - Joe May 14, 2015
      
      Also Karen, you said - " Do you even understand what the definitions of "narcissist" and "sociopath" are? No one can meet the criteria for those personality disorders and not have motives to intentionally exploit and abuse others."
      Please enlighten me by showing where in the criteria for narcissism you find support for that statement, or is it just your opinion?
Elizabeth D May 8, 2015 Reply

Hi, Sunflower – I also read the account of the abuse skit and find it very telling (and not at all surprising from personal experience) that abuse in its various forms is quite deliberate and even a learned skill.

I mentioned earlier that I thought BG believes many of his own lies. To clarify – because I totally agree with you – I don't want to give the impression that they "can't help it" or are incapable of knowing right vs wrong or truth vs lie. I think that people who habitually lie in order to construct their own realities eventually convince themselves of some – though certainly not all – of their lies. My husband was expert at taking my own words and drawing incorrect conclusions, yet despite my later attempts to clarify what I may have meant, he was already and forever convinced of the own (false) reality that he had constructed in his mind. No explanation of what was *actually* meant from the person that uttered the words would ever trump what he chose to believe ... what he "heard with [his] own ears." On the other hand, if he lied about a particular action – like pawning a piece of my jewelry – he would maintain that denial in spite of forever knowing the actual truth. Even if they believe "many" of their own lies, it should be pointed out that in the repertoire of a pathological liar there are exceedingly more lies that they know are untrue, despite their attempts to deny them, even to themselves. They don't lie because they can't help it or don't know any better, but because it works for them.

And as far as "Aj"'s comments – yes, what Jay & LynnCD said. BG didn't direct anyone "away from the scriptures"? Yet he interpreted and presented them in such a way as to manipulate and intimidate. If he'd wanted to point people to scripture, he'd've let scripture speak for itself, such as with the stories of Abigail, Dinah, and Tamar. If he himself was intensely misogynistic and wanted to intimidate and scripturally abuse half of the entire population into intense feelings of inadequacy and imposed subservience, he might just do a root-cause analysis of any calamity and teach that a woman was to blame in each and every circumstance. He did it with Bible stories and he did it with "case studies." That's called a "personal agenda," not "pointing people to God."

When he wasn't blaming women for every ill from the creation to present time, he was "teaching scripture" to his convenience. If one victim (such as his assistant du jour or some disposable staff guy he'd lied about) ever went to anyone for assistance or relief and that person tried to step in and help, BG had the "scriptural" teaching against "taking up offenses" to shut them up. He could even use it against multitudes that may want to hold him accountable or threaten his credibility … if he’d adequately prepped them ahead of time to not question him. Yep, he was that good at it. Are we to believe that he earnestly taught this because he thought it was scriptural? Is it fishy that no one else seems to teach it? Is it fishy that “taking up offenses” wasn’t so offensive when people like Charles Stanley did it for him? Do we conclude that he was pointing people to scripture even though scripture is chock full of instruction to "SEEK justice, DEFEND the oppressed, TAKE UP THE CAUSE of the fatherless, PLEAD THE CASE of the widow"?? Bottom line, "Aj" or whoever you may be – is just this one example of teaching people to not “take up offenses” scriptural, or is it convenient and manipulative?

The benign teacher that you talk about did these things while telling scores of young women to keep what he did to them just between the two of them because other people (especially parents) wouldn’t understand ... while denying to his board that he knew things that he did apparently know (it's called "lying") ... while cutting off loyal staff that dared to speak up for themselves and question anything ... while teaching his own version of "authority" as he circumvented reasonable authority for himself, claiming he needed to answer only to God ... while some minor children in his organization's care were denied adequate food or basic medical care, and even locked in solitary confinement without their parents' knowledge, much less consent. To what extent are those kinds of things his responsibility, “Aj”??

BG demonstrated a "better way of life" and taught scripture; any ill effects need to be owned by the people who just didn't "get it." Okaaaay. So we give him a pass?? Nah.
- LynnCD May 17, 2015 Reply
  
  "If he himself was intensely misogynistic and wanted to intimidate and scripturally abuse half of the entire population into intense feelings of inadequacy and imposed subservience, he might just do a root-cause analysis of any calamity and teach that a woman was to blame in each and every circumstance. He did it with Bible stories and he did it with "case studies." That's called a "personal agenda," not "pointing people to God.""
  
  It was the teaching of Bill Gothard and a couple other weirdos I won't mention who made me feel guilty for having anything to say about anything. I well remember when I first came on the internet, I was horrified. I still (properly) understand I'm going to be held accountable for every word I say, but yeesh! To feel guilty about saying ANYthing because you are female??? I know all the verses they use - "suffer not a woman to teach," totally ripped out of context, and many more verses like this, twisted to suit an agenda of power.
  
  You can tell nowadays it's hard to shut me up, but I had to almost violate my conscience when I first started expressing thoughts on the internet, years ago, on account of teachings like what Elizabeth spoke about.
Maggie May 13, 2015 Reply

There are numerous excellent online discernment ministries (I found this website because of one) that are working hard to teach discernment, if only people were open to listen. They are filling the gap because the pastors are not warning and the congregation is not questioning. The lack of understanding of the Bible in depth (because it's not being taught) and the absence of pastors teaching to beware of false teachers and prophets is a lethal mixture. How many church bodies are equipped to deal with the onslaught of false teaching? It's just not in the church culture.

I spoke up by asking questions at my church, and I was rapidly shut down by the leadership--I was perceived as a threat by asking questions! This is after 17 years of being a compliant, quiet member. This church is not a cult, but the leadership doesn't realize how unhealthy it is not to be able to have an open discussion about concerns. Needless to say, I had to leave.

I finally found a church that does expository teaching of the Bible, as well as warn against false teaching and practices. A major concern of mine is that contemplative spirituality/mysticism is taking over churches. Satan has 1,001 ways of deception. We need to rely on the Holy Spirit to help discern the snares of the evil one and not be dependent on any one person or ministry.
- LynnCD May 14, 2015 Reply
  
  "A major concern of mine is that contemplative spirituality/mysticism is taking over churches."
  
  This struck me. We all long for a sense of God's presence, but we have a sure word in the Scriptures, and it is faith that pleases God now - not necessarily mystical experiences.
  - Karen May 18, 2015 Reply
    
    Lynn, there is a strong tradition of mystical experience of God in the Scriptures and throughout Church history. We were made for communion with God, and that is experiential. A culture steeped in naturalist materialism and scientism coupled with an emphasis on rational approaches to faith in the modern era have left people very thirsty for a deep experience of God's love--or at the very least His supernatural intervention and help in painful and difficult circumstances. But you are absolutely right that it is faith that pleases God--childlike trust in His goodness and promises and a sincere desire to imitate Him in His wonderful condescension and love. We learn these things from the Scriptures and from the wisdom of more mature believers steeped in the Scriptures and a lifetime of seeking with God's help to put them into practice.
    
    In my own Christian tradition, there is a very strong teaching to *never* seek a mystical experience and to automatically reject it if one comes as the devil's attempt at deception. If it is truly God trying to reach us through an experience such as this, it is taught He will persist and make it very clear it is Him. We do not need to fear missing Him by adopting this very careful and skeptical attitude.
    
    I was in a Pentecostal denomination during several of my young adult years. The attitude there was virtually the opposite. They thought they had the Scriptures all figured out about how to discern the true from the deceiving spirit, but the truth is we were extremely naive about this. A church culture that promotes seeking mystical experience from God makes naive believers ripe for deception. I get really concerned now when I read about groups seeking experiential Christianity, but who don't have a good grasp on the strong dogmatic, hermeneutical and spiritual tradition of the Church throughout her history to understand its proper place in the life of the believer and the great potential for spiritual delusion (mostly a kind of pride that one has a special inside track to the life and power of God, but also the potential for being led into many false teachings).
    - LynnCD May 18, 2015
      
      Karen wrote: "A culture steeped in naturalist materialism and scientism coupled with an emphasis on rational approaches to faith in the modern era have left people very thirsty for a deep experience of God's love--or at the very least His supernatural intervention and help in painful and difficult circumstances."
      
      I have been following the advice of a Dr. Perlmutter, who, being dissatisfied with mainstream neurology (as he puts it, "diagnose and adios"), became educated in the functional medicine approach, and nutrition, to treat underlying causes of diseases. He is famous for saying he wants to put out the fire (ie deal with whole systems metabolic issues driving various neurological diseases), instead of targeting the smoke (symptoms).
      
      I have also done a fair share of hospital work myself (retired PT), nursing home work, and currently am happily unlicensed, doing home health for a private client just a little more than a couple stones throw from my house.
      
      I say all that to say - this mindset you mention has INFECTED medicine as well. That, plus keeping costs down has resulted in many places in a horribly impersonal approach to patient care - from MDs reading computer printouts of labs and dealing with those more than the whole patient, to nurses and PCTs who know their charting, etc. (read butts) are covered who continue talking to each other about their vacations while ignoring the call bell of someone who might be in severe pain. Yes, I know that may be an exaggeration and not true in many cases, and there are many places where the care givers are severely stressed and overworked, but both ignoring the patient as a person and being overworked contribute to the depersonalization aspect of health care.
      
      I try to listen to many online free summits from experts as I have time for - mostly on diabetes, autoimmunity, the gut microbiome, etc., and there is definitely a spiritual vacuum that is starting to be filled with spirituality from all places, it seems - but on what seems void of the central Christian tenet of Christ as Lord and Redeemer in most cases.
      
      This very day my sister-in-law just graduated with a degree in narrative medicine, from Columbia University. Narrative medicine seeks to reintegrate the needs of the whole person back into the picture of their health care treatment - and that includes those that work with patients as well as patients.
      
      That's a long winded way of saying many people, many places, in American society, are feeling rushed, activity oriented, depersonalized. Not just the Church.
      
      People are longing for a real, intimate connection with God and with each other, and my heart hurts for people who are dealing with their spiritual lives, not by exegesis of the Word, but by "exit, Jesus, from my life while I pursue things that feel good" (but aren't really the eternal answer).
      
      The reason many say this is because they have been hurt by systems such as Gothard's system, or any other abusive authoritarian system which depersonalizes them by its formulaic, rather than personal relationship approach. So they have left what they thought was Christianity altogether.
      
      "This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the One True God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." Jesus promised a Comforter, not a list to keep, in this regard, although it is true there are commands we need to obey.
      
      I agree with what I infer from your comment - that if one has a special encounter, that they are not experiences to cultivate, and if we don't have such experiences we don't need to feel trashed, simply because God values faith right now. That said, in my 56 years I have had 4 such special experiences, which I will not elaborate on online, as they are for me only, and I am fallible, but three very much were supernatural as far as I can tell. The fourth experience I believe was supernatural, but it might have been my imagination as well. I am not charismatic or pentecostal. I do not believe in trying to control another person by saying, "God told me . . . " That is pure evil, also people trying to make much of their experiences to other people. And I never say anything because I still need to account for the fact that I have an imagination that might have been overactive, although I don't believe in the instances I'm thinking of, it can be attributed to that.
    - Karen May 18, 2015
      
      Lynn, I can really appreciate what you share about the effect of the modern philosophical mindset and its depersonalizing effects on healthcare (for both caregivers and patients). A few years ago, "Frontline" did an expose on this change of operation from a non-profit to a business model for hospitals and how the whole healthcare system has been centralized under a few big corporate players reaping massive profits--quite frightening. I'm very much in your Dr. Perlmutter's camp philosophically about approaches to medical treatment. For crisis care, you can't beat modern American conventional medicine--for prevention and treatment of the whole person as a complete system (rather than the sum of parts), it's an abysmal failure (though it wasn't always this way). About a decade ago, Reader's Digest ran an article detailing research that showed the third leading cause of death in this country was conventional medical *treatment* (not medical errors--that was the fourth leading cause, or perhaps I've reversed the order--going from memory here). You can bet that isn't listed in the CDC statistics, and many medical professionals and researchers in the know say that position is now number one. (This is in the category for many of "things we didn't want to know"!)
      
      We've gotten some excellent health and nutritional advice from our chiropractor who is also trained on the masters's level in psychology, and also specializes in nutrition and in various forms of meridian therapy (e.g., acupuncture). We have gotten a lot of good care and advice from him.
      
      I regret that I didn't know myself (and the work world) better in college and post college--I would have pursued a degree in PT (it's what I wanted to do when I was in junior high).
      
      About those little close encounters of the Christian kind you mentioned--me, too. I agree these are things we keep close to our heart (in more ways than one)--they are not given for public consumption, but to more deeply root us in Him.
    - Grace M May 21, 2015
      
      I would like to reply to what has been said about not seeking after mystical experiences, and being skeptical of them if they come. Without wanting to get into any kind of doctrinal discussion, I don't think this is completely right. I would like to respond.
      
      First of all I don't know exactly what is meant by the word "mystical." For this particular discussion I prefer to use the word "personal" experiences of God. Surely we should seek personal experiences of God all day long; we should do our best to be personally related to Him and in His presence all day long. Surely, also, God will come to us at times, since of course we don't stay in His presence all day long; we can't keep ourselves there, but He is merciful to continue to seek us as the shepherd sought the lost sheep. And we need to be constantly open to His seeking, to His speaking; or if by our weakness we are not open to His speaking yet He in mercy continues to speak to us, we need to pray to Him to cause us to be able and willing to open to Him and hear His voice. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:27)
      
      Please know that I fully recognize the possibility of desiring to be open to the Lord and having the enemy take advantage of such openness and come in to attack and deceiver our mind in the guise of it being the speaking of the Holy Spirit. I personally was tormented in that way at times in the past. However I found out eventually, by crying out to the Lord to show me the way to be saved from the torment, that it is a simple matter to be absolutely covered from the enemy's confusing and dark speaking to my mind. There is no need to make any kind of mental, doctrinal analysis of what kind of speaking I am hearing; in fact, this kind of analysis only leads me into further darkness. It is only necessary to call out to the Lord and ask to be saved and covered. If I say "O Lord Jesus, cover me from the enemy's attack on my mind," that is enough. The enemy has no more way to speak to me. Once I call on the name of the Lord, the devil has no choice but to run away.
      
      There is no need to be skeptical. As soon as I pray "Lord let me hear nothing from Your enemy or any improper source, and let me hear everything You are speaking to me," that is the end of the enemy's attack on my mind. Then I can be free to be in the Lord's presence and hear His speaking without any need of skepticism, but instead, I can bask in His warm, loving, gracious presence. God is God; He is willing and able to answer this prayer in an absolute and immediate way.
      
      If the enemy doesn't like this and returns to bother me, it is very simple to say "Praise the Lord, the enemy no longer has any way to bother me. I am in the Lord's presence and I am alone with Him. No one else can be in this presence; the enemy has to run away." At the moment when we praise the Lord, the enemy runs away. Then we can be in the wonderful and sweet presence of the Lord all day long.
      
      However, this does not at all mean that we should be in highly emotional, life-crisis type experiences of the Lord all the time. Those are generally few and far between, and it probably would in fact not be healthy to seek those out. Also, there is no need for me to have such things as "visions" where, for example, I see something spiritual with my eyes. The Lord sometimes uses visions of that type and they're certainly recorded in the Bible, but it seems to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon that not every believer needs to experience. I never have, and I never hope to.
      
      It is my ongoing experience that the Lord is able to tailor His presence with me and my experience of Him to my need at the time; super-high, intense experiences are rarely, extremely rarely, my need. To be in His presence in an ongoing, calm, peaceful way is usually my need.
      
      If anyone disagrees with anything I am saying, I will point out that what I am saying is that we as believers should ask the Lord to give us the proper experiences of Him. I don't believe anyone can say that this is something we should not pray or that asking God to do this can in any way lead us into any wrong path or deception. Again I say, God is God. His answering of our prayer in this way nullifies our weakness, short-sightedness, or lack of discernment. We must, and we can, have absolute faith in His ability to cover our mind from deception and attacks, if we will but come to Him and ask Him to do it.
      
      I also agree with what has been stated many times on RG, and needs to be stated, that it is not right for anyone to take anything they hear from the Lord and impose it on someone else in the spirit of "thus saith the Lord, and you have to listen to me." I am talking entirely about personal, one-on-one fellowship with the Lord. Some on RG have said that -- I am not sure exactly how to say it -- "pursuing spirituality," or whether they would use other terminology -- somehow leads to lording it over others, but I don't accept this at all. I would submit that anyone who is genuinely enjoying proper fellowship with the Lord would not have any thought of lording it over anyone else, and the Lord would never speak to anyone that they should try to impose things on others.
      
      I would submit that anyone who does try to impose so-called "God's speaking" on others is not actually receiving the speaking of the Lord and has not prayed for their mind to be covered from the deception of the enemy and that they would only hear the Lord's speaking. They may be seeking a false "spiritual experience," yet not actually seeking Jesus Christ, the Lord Himself; they may be receiving a false speaking that is not truly "spiritual" and is not "mystical" and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
      
      In summary, I think praying to the Lord to give us the proper experiences of Him is one of the most absolutely safe things that we could do as a believer; God is God, and He is able to answer this kind of seeking prayer in an absolute and absolutely safe way.
    - LynnCD May 21, 2015
      
      Grace M: "For this particular discussion I prefer to use the word "personal" experiences of God. Surely we should seek personal experiences of God all day long; we should do our best to be personally related to Him and in His presence all day long."
      
      I admire your heart for the Lord. He needs to be in the forefront of our minds often, and always somewhere in our consciousness, as when we have to focus on some task that requires attention on the immediate surroundings, or when solving a math problem, doing brain surgery (I'm not trying to be funny), or many things of like nature.
      
      Perhaps we are thinking of the same thing, but I do not express it that way. I don't believe we need to seek experiences of God as much as we need to cultivate a prayerful mindset as much as possible, and thinking about what the true meaning of Scripture is, and going about our business in general. Perhaps that is what you meant. There are some people who are uneasy about wanting God to tell them each thing in life (an extreme example would be which clothes to put on in the morning), to which of three good house options would be a good one to purchase, and if they don't get a "word" from the Lord about these decisions, they become confused. In truth, God gives us room to roam and make our own prayerful decisions. His guidance is still real, though unseen and not felt. We walk by faith and not by sight. We trust in His Word. We often try to do things (the apostles did in Acts, for example) and are prevented, but not by direct communication from God, but rather His Providential intervention.
      
      Grace M: "Surely, also, God will come to us at times, since of course we don't stay in His presence all day long; we can't keep ourselves there,"
      
      What I believe is the true child of God is always in God's presence, and we don't need to work to keep ourselves there. If we sin (roam like a lost sheep) He will convict us to bring us back, according to Psalm 32 and Psalm 51, and if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, as I John 1 states. In the pasture of the Good Shepherd I believe I am always under His watchful care, whether I sleep or am awake, am thinking about Him, or not. Psalm 139 is the first Scripture I memorized - we cannot flee from God's presence. Wherever we go, He is there, behind and before us.
      
      I believe both you and I know is freeing to have such a relationship with God, and not feel you have to be guided by human authorities or mediators between you and God. There is only one Mediator, and He is a Good Shepherd. And yes, there have been some special times in my life where I have had some pretty special experiences, but that is not usual for me.
    - Grace M May 21, 2015
      
      Hi Lynn,
      
      Well, there is that verse that says to pray without ceasing. But anyway, my point was *not* to put anybody under any pressure that they have to work hard to be in God's presence or pray without ceasing or be absolutely sure that whatever clothes they decided to wear that day was exactly God's will for them. I've certainly experienced exactly this kind of pressure in the past and it's certainly damaging, so if you feel like I came across that way then I would have to say I appreciate you pointing it out, so that I can clarify that that's not at all what I meant.
      
      Like I said in my summary, my main point is that it is safe (not that it is legally demanded, but it is safe) to seek out experiences of the Lord and seek to know Him in a personal way. We can pray to be covered from any advantage the enemy might want to take of our openness, and we can trust God's faithfulness to honor our proper seeking with His proper and loving response.
      
      The thing about the participants on this web site is that the reason we are here is that we were sorely deceived in the past, and many of us have had the experience of being afraid to believe anything; perhaps even afraid to believe God, because we are afraid that we, being fallible, are misinterpreting what God might be saying, whether in the Word, in others' speaking, or in His personal speaking to us. I feel like we all need to be encouraged that God is able to make the way for us to receive His speaking and find the truth, and that He is just waiting to honor our request to Him to do this for us.
      
      Grace
    - LynnCD May 21, 2015
      
      Very true, Grace. I agree.
    - Grace M May 22, 2015
      
      Lynn, on further thought, it occurred to me today that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone that they pray something along the lines, "Lord Jesus, give me all the proper, personal experiences of You that You would like me to have. Deliver me from the negative effects of false teaching that has separated me from You in the past. Cover me from the enemy's attack on my mind that would cause me to be deceived regarding what is really of You or not of You. Show me the truth and let me experience You." I know when I've prayed along this line, this type of prayer, the answers I got from the Lord were wonderful.
    - LynnCD May 22, 2015
      
      That sounds like a beautiful and right prayer to pray, Grace M.
    - Grace M May 22, 2015
      
      I'm so glad you agree!
Maggie May 13, 2015 Reply

"What he taught us was more extreme than what he said to our parents—but he used the same terminology. The result was that we and our parents often believed different things but didn’t know it because we used the same words."

Redefining words = doublespeak. I also see this technique being used in the seeker-sensitive/purpose-driven movement and in hyper-charismatic groups. That way you join the group, thinking you are in agreement, but over time your definition changes to match the group's definition.

Once you understand the technique, you are more alert the next time you encounter it, but, in my experience, it takes time to decipher what is actually going on.
pat May 15, 2015 Reply

Just so you all know, the Bill Gothard era of IBLP/ATI is past. All your stuff is old news and past history.
- DavidM May 15, 2015 Reply
  
  So what past teachings of Gothard have the leaders in this new era of IBLP/ATI repudiated, retracted, changed or clarified?
- Leslie May 15, 2015 Reply
  
  The collateral damage is still taking place.
  - Rachel May 15, 2015 Reply
    
    AGREE!
- David May 17, 2015 Reply
  
  Strange, but if I go to the IBLP website, Bill Gothard is everywhere. He is still giving his seminars on tape. And they are still using his materials. Gothard himself continues to run his own website. Really, NOTHING has changed, other than him actually being the legal head of IBLP. Personally, I have to believe that he still has plenty to say about what is going in that organization.
nnwa May 17, 2015 Reply

What a well written and concise article! Couldn't have said it any better. Thank you for all you do here. May many get healing. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. "
guy cooksey May 20, 2015 Reply

Dr. Ron Allen who sounded the alarm years ago should have been listened to. Alas, he was not and the lie spread.
- LynnCD May 20, 2015 Reply
  
  You mentioned Dr. Allen. Here is an example of how exhausting Gothard can be to deal with: http://midwestoutreach.org/there-you-go-again-bill-gothard-and-the-facts/
  - Larne Gabriel May 20, 2015 Reply
    
    If only the flies on the walls could speak! Even they would be exhausted!
    
    Larne
LynnCD May 21, 2015 Reply

The "brilliance" of Bill Gothard continues to crumble, as is witnessed in the news today with the confession and resignation of Josh Duggar from the FRC. I had thought at least Jim Bob did the right thing years ago by going to the police (although they should have stopped the show then) but today found out it took Oprah Winfrey to get him to do it - that the abuse problems were going on for quite some time before he even went to the authorities.

Abuse like this makes me furious, and I am having a very hard time calming down now. I never did like the show, but did not know what to think of the family. Now I do. But predictable based on Bill Gothard's "brilliance" template - not the fact that Josh had problems. We all stumble. Just how they were swept under the rug to present a nice legalistic cookie cutter IBLP family that the whole world is supposed to emulate. And don't dare criticize them!
- rob war May 21, 2015 Reply
  
  The so called police was a buddy of Jim who just gave Josh a "stern talk". Jim and the elders of the church did not go and properly file a real police report and were more part of the coverup to save face. The so called "counseling" the Josh was suppose to get was really just being sent away to work on a home. There was no real counseling by a qualified therapist and the man he worked for had minors in the home. The real victims besides the girls he touched is his wife, three kids and baby on the way. I hope his sisters were not involved. That is the problem when there is denial of psychological problems and are raised under extreme pressure of the TV show and IBLP. I don't understand how he had access to girls while they were sleeping. I would think with all the big deal they make of their dating rules, that they could even have any unsupervised moments like this. I hope the Recovering Grace will have more articles that deal with the Duggars because there is a need to discuss them here.
  - Aila H May 21, 2015 Reply
    
    rob war, his sisters were involved according to the story on the London Daily Mail site. Perhaps this will open the eyes of some to the dysfunction of Jim Bob and Michelle making a spectacle of their family on TV.
    - rob war May 22, 2015
      
      thanks, I will look into that and yes, it is totally dysfunctional to use your children as stage props in a reality TV show.
  - LynnCD May 22, 2015 Reply
    
    What I'm reading is Jim Bob and Michelle covered it up from 2002, and were only forced to start an investigation some years later when Oprah received an e-mail telling what was going on.
    
    Please note well - what Josh did oftentimes happens, but it needed to be properly dealt with at the time, and was not. There was a cover-up, and the show continued. The cover-up, continued abuse, and Jim Bob and Michelle not stopping the show so their family could properly deal with matters like this is very, very wrong. Evil is a good word for it.
- grateful May 22, 2015 Reply
  
  This is pretty disturbing, but what would you all have done if that were your son? Full court press with all available authorities? I don't know what I would do ...
  - LynnCD May 22, 2015 Reply
    
    Grateful, when elders are told of this level of abuse of minors, in my state they are duty bound to report it to civil authorities.
  - LynnCD May 22, 2015 Reply
    
    I only have daughters, but if I had a son, or know of anybody who did things like this to them, you bet that son would be reported and would be in intensive counseling, as well as out of the home for a while.
    
    They were very willing to do a reality TV show - to show the world how it's done, so to speak. Imagine if they had done the right thing from the get go - how much more respect and admiration people would have for them, instead of trying to continually covering up horrible sin, that damages young girls this way?
    - grateful May 22, 2015
      
      For the record, I am in no way trying to justify or defend Josh's actions. just trying to put myself in his / their shoes. Furthermore, I would have pulled the plug years ago (if I were JB).
JPU May 22, 2015 Reply

I wondered if this was being discussed here yet. And, among other wonderings, I wonder if Josh's confession, and apologies, and taking full responsibility(he resigned from his job because he feels he would not be effective because of this) which probably will mean difficulty finding work, will be further encouragement for Bill Gothard to face what HE'S done? Josh talking to him, saying "hey buddy if I can do it so can you", sort of thing. Keep on praying for them all, including TLC.
- LynnCD May 22, 2015 Reply
  
  Yes. Pray. I met w/my prayer partner this AM and among many other things we did pray for them.
Anne June 17, 2015 Reply

I think that Bill somehow ignored the "thar" in between the Go and D of his name. Is it and was it a cult? Yes, it is. And it has hurt people who never attended the meetings or got the "almighty" RED BOOK.

There has been collateral damage that you will never hear about. And some like me will not likely share. I never laid eyes on the man but I felt the cult like change in people I loved.

How he has held on this long,in my opinion, means there are forces of darkness who want this teaching to grow again. Legalism is not just a little wrong, it is evil. It is at the core of every other evil on this earth.

The heart of legalism is pride, self-righteousness, cruelty to one degree or another. While on the surface "appearing to be wholesome and holy", it is anything but that.

If there is only the kind of "grace" of Bill's ilk, then there is no grace, and where there is no true biblical grace, there is no hope for anyone.
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George Nixon Shuler September 29, 2015 Reply

Thanks for the spot-on analysis. I'm reading Julie J. Ingersoll's "Building God's Kingdom," and though I had heard of Gothard before, I found your site with some researching and I was like, "Oh, yeah, this guy!"

Some may object to your use of the term "cult." In the U.S. today it has devolved into a pejorative, so that some use it to mean "any religion I disagree with." Hence, Unitarians, Mormons, Buddhists, etc. are called "cults" incorrectly by those who wish to slur them. But with an expanded definition of close control it meets Margaret Thaler Singer's and Janja Lalich's parameters as outlined in their book "Cults in Our Midst." In short Gothard did what the founders of multi-level marketing did with home-based busineeses - he eliminated the overhead. Why mess with having to find an isolated locale capable of supporting a population of zombies with buildings, plumbing, food, supplies, etc., when you can subcontract?
A. N. October 5, 2015 Reply

this was so spot on. I honestly have never read something so accurate about his teaching. It's hard to explain sometimes because it doesn't sound cult-ish at all and not a lot of people understand. Loved this article. Just now working my way out of this mess.

The Brilliance of Bill Gothard

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