Please note: For the purpose of this article, I use the term "cultural fundamentalism" to describe people with “a particular approach to culture” similar to what is described here. (
http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/what-i-mean-by-fundamentalism.html) My use of the word “fundamentalism” does not refer to religious beliefs, which is why I will designate the difference by using the phrase “cultural fundamentalism.”
Christians and psychotherapy haven’t always had the best relationship. Growing up as I did, adjacent to cultural fundamentalists, I absorbed the following dominant assumptions:
- You don’t need counseling if you have Jesus.
- Counselors disapprove of homeschooling and Christianity and might want to take you away from your parents.
- The only good counselor is a Christian counselor (and even then, how do you know if they’re Christian enough?)
- Depression, anxiety, and pain will go away if you pray hard enough.
Then I earned my Bachelor’s degree in Family Psychology and my Master’s degree in Counseling. I became a state-licensed counselor. And along the way, I realized how destructive these assumptions are to men, women, and children who have been brought up to believe them.
I have had people come to me in whispers and in tears, asking if I thought they lacked faith because their pain wasn’t going away. I’ve also experienced people, in the wake of the recent Duggar scandal, saying that they believe counseling makes things worse because you just go over and over the same thing, reopening old wounds. I’ve further heard statements that equate reconciling with your abuser to a state of being fully healed, when that is actually something an individual has to decide for themselves. And, I’ve seen “counseling” used as a label for everything from actual mental health counseling to hard labor camps and victim-blaming.
Which is why I have three objectives today:
- To define the word counseling within this subculture in all its incarnations, promoting a higher level of clarity in the discussion of healing from sexual and spiritual abuse.
- To identify potential paths of healing for those who are hurting, and for their friends and family, who want to know what recommendations to offer.
- To begin a dialogue on standards for helpful and appropriate counseling methods for effective healing for sexual abuse within the cultural fundamentalist (or ex-cultural fundamentalist) community.
Counseling, no doubt, is a difficult thing to conceptualize. But we have a starting point, courtesy of the American Counseling Association, a nationally recognized authority on professional counseling standards. In a meeting with delegates from 31 different counseling organizations, the following definition was agreed upon. “Professional counseling is a professional relationship that empowers diverse individuals, families, and groups to accomplish mental health, wellness, education, and career goals.” (http://www.counseling.org/about-us/about-aca#sthash.HgG8W5G4.dpuf)
In other words, counselors work with what you want to be different about your life and help you change it.
People who call themselves counselors come from all different backgrounds and levels of experience. To determine which person is the right fit for your needs, you will want to look into two pieces of information: their education level and their license or certificate to practice.
- State-licensed counselors have a minimum of a Master’s level education in counseling, including core courses such as human development and theories of counseling. They may also have a Ph.D. or Psy.D. in Counseling or a related discipline. In order to qualify for state licensure, they must have passed a knowledge-based exam and an ethics (jurisprudence) exam. They must have also completed a certain number of hours practicing counseling under supervision by a specially-trained counselor supervisor. While each state varies in its requirements, to the best of my knowledge the minimum number of hours required is 1500, and the most I have seen is 4500. In order to remain licensed, a counselor must complete a certain number of continuing education credits every so often, including education in ethics. For my state of Texas, I had to complete a 3000-hour internship and now must maintain 24 continuing education credits and take a jurisprudence exam every 2 years.
- Licensed marriage and family therapists have very similar requirements, but their education is based more in studying the dynamics of family systems and treating the family as a whole. Counselors can be dually licensed as marriage and family therapists and licensed professional counselors.
- “Interns” or “Associate counselors” are counselors-in-training who have graduated from their Master’s or Doctoral program but are still completing their requirements for state licensure. Some of these interns and associates can be quite competent and may be a great option for those who need to stay within a budget. Ask these (and all) counselors about how long they have been practicing as a counselor and their experience working with survivors of spiritual abuse and sexual assault.
- Psychologists have doctoral degrees in psychology but may or may not be practicing counselors. They can also pursue positions in research and teaching, among other things. Licensure as a psychologist is also done at the state level, and requires a period of supervision.
- A psychiatrist is a medical doctor (M.D. or D.O.) who has been through medical school and completed a residency in psychiatry. They are not automatically trained in counseling; rather, their training focuses on dispensing medication for psychiatric (mental) illnesses. Some residency programs do train their doctors in counseling, so it’s important that you ask about each individual’s experience with the counseling aspect, as that requires an entirely different skill set than prescribing medication.
- Pastoral counselors have advanced training in ministry and psychotherapeutic techniques. Properly, they have licenses from the state as well as spiritual training and competency. Since this designation can be co-opted by lay counselors without the appropriate level of training, I encourage you to rely on the definition and recommendations of the American Association of Pastoral Counselors, though they are not a licensing agency of themselves.
- Christian counselors (not used here to refer to licensed counselors who integrate faith into their treatment), sometimes also called Biblical counselors, have been through some type of certification program. These programs are largely unregulated and they vary in competency. This certification is usually based on completing large amounts of reading in approved theological texts and providing recommendations from pastors or elders.
- Nouthetic or (strict) Biblical counselors believe that all counseling should be based in the Bible and on Biblical principles. In my opinion, the “counseling” orientation represented in the article There is No Victim: A Survey of IBLP Literature on Sexual Abuse (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/) represents Nouthetic or strictly Biblical counseling, which tends to support the assigning of personal responsibility to all parties involved.
The different types of counseling practiced by these individuals is too varied to represent completely here, but these are a few of the ones you are most likely to encounter and potentially benefit from:
- Cognitive-behavioral counseling (my preferred theoretical orientation, so note the bias I have) purports that we can find healing by adjusting any one of an interrelated triangle of cognition (thought), behavior (action), and affect (feeling) the remaining two points can be improved as well. For example, by gaining a better understanding of the fact that you are not to blame for your own sexual abuse (thought) you stop accepting blame (action) and experience less shame and guilt (feeling).
- Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) is a specific type of treatment for survivors of trauma that involves having the client focus on specific traumatic experience while the therapist walks them through different stimuli such as eye movements and tapping. While I do not personally practice EMDR and thus cannot speak with experience, EMDR has been subject to peer-reviewed research and, to the best of my knowledge, can have significantly favorable results for trauma survivors.
- Group therapy ideally consists of 6 to 8 fellow sexual abuse survivors, either in fairly similar circumstances and background, or intentionally of different backgrounds and genders, to provide a different therapeutic experience. While this can be difficult due to the potential of feeling triggered by others’ experiences, it can also normalize your experience, reducing loneliness and shame. It may be necessary and appropriate for you to receive individual counseling before and/or during the group therapy experience.
- TF-CBT (Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is a newer but promising form of traditional cognitive-behavioral therapy that focuses on teaching coping and relaxation skills, and working with parents and children together. To find a certified TF-CBT therapist, visit http://www.tfcbt.org/.
Now you know who you might see in the role of a counselor and what kind of therapy you might want to pursue. But that doesn’t tell you yet what might go on in the counseling office, and it can be intimidating not knowing what to expect. So here are some things you can probably expect your therapist to do while you are in session with them (individual experiences will of course vary):
- Actively listen to you: Your counselor will try to absorb the full range of the messages you are giving them throughout the session, noting body language, tone, context, and more.
- Reflect your feelings or message: Your counselor will try to demonstrate their understanding of what you are going through by reaffirming back to you the main points of your message (content) or the main feeling(s) you display. Accurate understanding is verified by saying, “Did I get that right?” or “Would you add to that?”
- Re-frame your experience: Your counselor might take an experience that you have had in one context and put it into another context for the purpose of your greater understanding of your own experience, or understanding of your experience from an outside perspective. For example, a sexual assault survivor who has blamed herself for not reporting the abuse may feel freer upon exploring the oppressive nature of her environment which made it nearly impossible to talk about what happened to her.
- Allow you to express emotion in silence: Your therapist may use silence to provide a supportive and non-judgmental environment in which you can be free to express the things you usually must censor around other people in your life.
- Educate you: It might be appropriate for your therapist to share with you facts about sexual abuse survivors, the nature of trauma recovery, the habits of sexual predators, or other relevant information to clear up misconceptions and assumptions.
Speaking of misconceptions to clear up, let’s talk about some potential “junk” you might have in your mind from your experiences with cultural fundamentalism, even if you are no longer in that world.
You might have heard:
- Christians don’t need counseling because they have Jesus. When our car has issues, we take it to a mechanic. When we’re ill, we visit the doctor. Mental health therapy is not designed to eliminate or replace your faith (or lack of faith, if that is the case for you.) Instead, it helps you get better understanding of the past so you can change your behavior, feelings, and thoughts in the present and experience a future in line with your goals for yourself. It says absolutely nothing about the state of your own faith journey if you choose to take advantage of the tools of counseling.
- Counselors might take my kids away from me. Counselors have no power to take your children from you, even if we wanted to, which most of us don’t. That’s because we know it’s hugely devastating to the child and we don’t want it to happen unless it’s truly better for the child to be in a different environment. Regardless, that’s not our call to make. We are legally required to report all incidences of confirmed or suspected abuse of children, the elderly, the mentally disabled, or someone else who cannot speak up for themselves. If that happens, we will make a report to Child Protective Services, who will follow up on it through their own process. It’s always possible that a good family could be unfairly penalized in this case. But I can tell you from the many cases I have had to report, these people hear the worst of the worst. It’s highly unlikely that your child would be taken away from you without some pretty serious and substantiated abuse claims.
- If you don’t see a Christian counselor they will disrespect your faith/you can’t get anything from them. No good counselor should disrespect any faith, period. If you want your counselor to pray with you or use Biblical teachings, then seek out a pastoral counselor as recommended above. Psychology is a “soft” science, so it’s not completely objective. But we learn techniques and tools that can help you regardless of what your faith is.
If you or someone you love has experienced sexual abuse, you should know that the survivor (not victim — just because you were victimized doesn’t mean that you stayed there!) has the right to decide for him- or herself whether or not they want professional counseling. A survivor should also know that it’s okay to do so on his or her own timetable. You will know when you’re ready if you open yourself up to the possibility. If finances are an issue, many times the local rape crisis center offers free counseling to the community, so no one who needs it should have to go without.
Counseling is not a shameful option, and it is not an un-Christian option. It is a way to empower you to accomplish your goals in mental health, wellness, and more. If you’re reading this today and think you might benefit from counseling, contact RAINN.org for the name of your local rape crisis center, reach out to Recovering Grace and ask for a counselor recommendation, or use the Find-A-Therapist tool (https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/?utm_source=PT_Psych_Today&utm_medium=House_Link&utm_campaign=PT_TopNavF_Therapist) to view profiles of counselors in your area.
I’d also enjoy hearing from you in the comments below or via email at [email protected]. Please note that email is not a secure form of communication, so please do not share intimate details that might compromise your privacy.
Stephanie Adams, MA, LPC, is a counselor, speaker, blogger, author, wife, and dog mom living in Fort Worth, TX. You can read her blog for survivors of sexual assault at survivorisaverb.blogspot.com or visit her practice website at stephanieadamslpc.com
Counseling photo copyright: lisafx / 123RF Stock Photo
July 31, 2024
I did not need counseling for sexual abuse, but I did need counseling after enduring my entire childhood (until I was 18 and able to leave) plagued by domestic violence, alcoholism, and drug abuse. I became a Christian in the middle of this, in a church that still required me to obey my parents due to the emphasis on Gothard (who I was actually "parenting") and considered talking about such things shameful. I stuffed it pretty well into mid-adulthood, and finally fell apart. I received excellent counseling that assured me that a) none of it was my fault, b) God loved me, and c) it was okay for me to take care of myself, even if that meant sometimes walking away. Ten years later, I have a close relationship with Jesus, my "own" life, and a better relationship with my family because I have boundaries.
So, please get counseling! If your church is afraid of it, I would strongly suggest another church. The counseling I received came through my trained church, staff and they are responsible. If a case is too difficult, they will help the person get reputable, outside help. My family still has all their issues, but I'm healthy, and I know how to lovingly deal with them, without losing myself.
Hi Linn! Thanks for this vote of confidence and for sharing your story. I really appreciate how you shared that counseling can help you grow in your faith - counseling is a tool and like medicine, can be extremely helpful. There are many excellent church counselors, often state-licensed as well, though some pastors and Biblical counselors are quite good at counseling as well. I have known very good Biblical unlicensed counselors, the challenge is how to find the good ones - you might just see if you can do a 15-30 min consult with one on the phone before going in - you can usually get a good idea of their manner of approach that way.
I love your takeaways - it is okay to take care of yourself, God does love you no matter what, and abuse is never anyone's fault but the abuser's.
Stephanie,
Thank you for this excellent article. It was with fear and trembling that we finally sought professional counseling, and it made all the difference in our fragmenting family. Being in Gothardism for over 15 years resulted in traumatization that affected each member of our family. The recovery is long and ongoing, and professional counselors have been invaluable to our process of healing.
I would offer these observations:
Approach the search for a counselor as a trial-and-error process. Assume that you may not find the right counselor on the first try. Don't get discouraged and give up. It can be a process to find the right fit. Also, one can benefit from working with more than one counselor (not necessarily simultaneously) because each counselor has something different in training and life experience to offer to a counselee.
EMDR is a valuable treatment for trauma and one that I believe God has used in my healing process. You can read about it and find a certified EMDR therapist here:
http://www.emdria.org/search/custom.asp?id=2337
Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse can be traumatic, and there is no shame in seeking help to gain healing.
It is also worth noting that one's health insurance often covers mental health counseling.
Ann
What great notes - yes, you should be reminded that it's not a one-and-done in many cases. It's okay to try one or more counselors and thoughtfully change if it's not the right match for you. It's important, first, because that gets the client the best chance at healing and recovery when they work with someone that meets their needs. Second, it creates more room in that counselor's schedule for the clients that do fit their style and need their approach - so don't ever feel guilty for finding a better match for you if need be.
Thanks also for sharing your experience with EMDR - I have worked with clients that have had EMDR with other therapists for specific traumatic events, and most of them speak highly of it. It's a fascinating approach - please check out the link to find out more.
You are right, insurance often will cover mental health counseling for individuals, families, and couples, with a partial copay or sometimes nearly completely. If you work with a counselor who does not take insurance, you can request that they generate what's called a "superbill" for you to submit to your insurance company for (usually partial) reimbursement for sessions you pay for out-of-pocket. You can also ask about any special circumstances your counselor can provide coverage for (for example, I work with a special donation-supported service that provides reduced-cost counseling for military veterans and their families) and sliding scale, which will reduce counseling session costs based on financial circumstances.
I survived ATI and just graduated in May with my masters in Marriage and Family Therapy. Growing up, I was very familiar with the 'just pray about it' approach to mental health, and the isolating and judgemental environment that supports the idea that if you're still having problems, you're just not godly enough. Mental health counseling, literally, saved my life.
I love this story - thank you, Lyric. And congratulations on your graduation! Doesn't that feel good? It's nice to be done and finally working with clients - I promise, it's so much better getting to work with clients, than being in school no matter how good your school is! I would love to hear more about your experience and support you in this transition. I'm a blogger/speaker for fellow counselors, specifically those completing their internship hours and starting out in private practice. I'd love the opportunity to help support you getting started and find out more about what you want to do with your degree. If you feel comfortable with it, I'd welcome hearing from you by email. :)
3,000 hours, wow! In my state, it is 1,000 hours and that feels like a lot as it is.
Counseling has been a major help for me individually and in our marriage.
Coming from the pastoral counseling perspective, in practical terms, I sometimes see an implied distinction in what counselors mean when they use the term "Christian counselor" versus "Biblical counselor". There is overlap between the two terms but in my experience, someone who integrates their faith and psychology together in their therapy is typically more likely to use the term Christian counselor while someone who believes that psychology is opposed to the Bible will be more likely to use the term Biblical counselor (this does not mean that everyone who uses the term Biblical counselor therefore rejects psychology - there is a wide range). fwiw, I personally am not an LMHC but my orientation is toward the Christian counseling side, using psychology as a helpful tool where possible.
I believe that group counseling can be a powerful and good thing. It is often portrayed in strange or funny ways in movies and people sometimes have a bias against it based on their pre-conceived notions about it but I would heartily agree with the recommendation to consider it.
I like the comment above about seeing the search for a counselor as a trial-and-error process. I have sat with several counselors. One in particular, I really needed my wife to give me a nudge to ask for a different one. It felt like failure to me that I was unable to make it work with him but the truth was that he was not helping me, to say the least. I asked for a different one, and the person who would match a client to a counselor was very kind and helpful in getting me set up with a different counselor who was very different and who did assist in lasting, good change.
Lol - it's quite a bit, isn't it? But then, shouldn't we have to do a lot to earn the privilege of doing what we do? :) It feels like forever when you're in it, but once you're done you realize how much you learn during that time.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I think that you're on to something with the wording there - Christian counseling does seem to refer to counseling (using listening, interpersonal skills, etc.) with a Christian approach, and Biblical to counseling (teaching, admonishment) through the Bible alone. As I said in an earlier comment, I've known several quite good Christian counselors with and without licenses/degrees. The challenge is finding the good ones when it's so unregulated what a Christian counselor is. In addition to requesting a short phone consult before making an appointment, another option that just occurred to me is asking pastoral staff, or friends for recommendation. If you trust the people you're asking, there's a good chance you'll get a name you'll be happy with.
Finding out you don't match with your therapist can definitely feel like a failure, but I appreciate your candor. It's not that simple as success and failure. Studies consistently show the biggest predictor of counseling effectiveness/outcome is the relationship you have with your counselor. So it's in your best interest that you pursue a match that works for you. I hope that most counselors won't take it personally - I've learned not to, because it's not a personal thing. For example, I know that some people want a counselor that will be really blunt with them and that's okay - it's just not me. I'm a soft approach. And I like to use humor - some people might find that grating or too light an approach. That's okay too. :) Thanks for helping make it okay for others to try a different counselor if need be!
Totally agree about asking for recommendations. A good recommendation from a friend can be so helpful.
Another idea, there are some larger churches in our area who have good counseling departments. If someone desires Christian or pastoral counseling, something like that can be a great resource. (Of course, not all church-based counseling centers are good and some will likely do more damage than good - a wide range available out there so buyer beware).
By the way, you had mentioned the AACC. Their site for locating counselors is: http://www.aacc.net/resources/find-a-counselor/ Of course, I wouldn't blindly trust anyone just because they are on that site but it can be a helpful starting point.
I love this post. It's so infomative and it can help balance out so much of the fear that fundamentalism has about mental health issues.
Thank you Eleanor! That's exactly what I hoped. It is an excellent tool and I hope to remove some of the fear factor from it.
I like how this article explains the different approaches. The same person could take the same problem to different counselors & get different sets of supports/solutions, depending on the counselor's style. I'm sure there's good pairings & bad pairings in many instances, like Matthew S. said from his experience. I think it's noble to pursue a good support/solution system as he describes.
You're right - so much of counseling is the relationship you develop with your counselor. And there's definitely been times when I or other counselors will recommend that they try something different after we work with what we are able to together. For example, a female client that struggles to trust men may benefit from switching from me to a healthy male counselor to explore a nonsexual, positive male relationship. Or someone who has done EMDR may like to try cognitive-behavioral therapy with me.
Perhaps the biggest example is what we've been discussing related to group therapy - it was really powerful to witness group therapy with survivors of sexual abuse after I had been working with many of the members independently in individual counseling. They gave each other things I could never do on my own with them, and it was very exciting to see.
Thanks for reading and commenting!
I appreciate your article. It is very informative. During my ATI years the thought of going to a "worldly" counselor would cause me such distress, but one time when I was visitng my parents out of state without my verbally abusive huband, they persuaded me to go speak to one. This counselor asked me one question, "What do you want?" I was dumbfounded. Me? Want something? For myself? I had no answer, but the question stayed with me. What do I want? Living the ATI life, no one had ever given me the freedom to have a desire of my own. It was always, "What would your husband/the Lord/your family/church want?" Now I am free from the abusive home but much damge has been done. Question: How can I best help my 16 year old daughter? People around me keep pressuring me to take her to counseling, but she refuses to admit she has any problems or see a counselor. (Her issues are so obvious that a pediatrician told me she needs counseling, a school psychologist also.)
there is an article titled "women who want" on the website of www.cbeinternational.org I will try to include the link.http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/women-who-want-reflection-world-cup
Hi Tangent (love the name you use here!)
I understand so well that reaction. For women, for women especially in conservative communities, that is a shock. For daughters in the quiverfull movement I wonder if they are ever asked that, sometimes.
I'd be happy to discuss more details of how to support your daughter privately, if you'd like to email me to talk, but overall here's what I recommend when you have a resistant teen who *should* go to counseling.
Encourage counseling but never force it. Why? The teen will shut down, more likely than not, or learn to project what they think the counselor wants to hear rather than the truth. If you do not force them now, even if they probably should be in counseling, then they have a better chance of seeking it out when they are ready rather than associating it with a bad experience.
Ask the teen what he/she thinks counseling IS. They may be under a different assumption than what you know counseling to be. I had a teen that didn't talk to me for 4-5 sessions because she thought that my goal was to get her away from her mom. Once we figured out that was the case, everything opened up! Some of my teen clients tell me that they think I'm going to talk to their parents about every single thing they say (which legally you are allowed to know, as they are minors, but I recommend you speak with your child's counselor about setting boundaries on this information...for example I talk with my parents about telling them if their child is practicing unsafe behavior but keeping most other things private.) Others have told me that they thought I would write notes the whole time, use puppets, or make them lie down on a couch. So you see, you never know what she could be thinking that counseling is about!
Try a bargain with them - I tell my teen clients that if they show up for 2 sessions with me, then if they still don't want to do it I will tell their parents that I will no longer see them, because of the reasons I mentioned above. Honestly, only one of my teen clients has ever still been unwilling to see me after 2 sessions, because they feel less trapped and more open to forming a relationship with me.
Finally, talk with your teen about finding a counselor that they like and connect with. Overwhelmingly, research shows that the best predictor of therapeutic outcomes is the relationship with the counselor - they get better results with a strong bond. So, do they want to talk to someone young or older, male or female, faith-based or neutral? As the parent, of course you have the final word, but often this helps you narrow down the search rather than just picking names out of a phone book.
Hope some of those tips help - your daughter is fortunate to have you looking out for her and asking those questions!
Nice to hear from you!
Is therapy biblical? are there examples of its necessity in Acts or the OT?
Hi Grateful,
We have to be careful about coming up with litmus tests for whether things are okay or not based on whether we can find examples in the Bible. For example, we won't find computers, guns or eyeglasses in the Bible, but for some reason, I don't see Christians vehemently opposing them.
As the article said, there is "Biblical Counseling" which tries to take the approach that confronting sin and expecting repentance is the only form of counseling found in the Bible. Yes, there is some feel-good junk in psychological circles, but I think there is also truth. I grew up in a denomination that shuns psychology and counseling, and, perhaps not surprisingly, people get really really hurt by leaders who defend the abusers and re-victimize the victims. It seems this is because the victims get stuck between their confusion and emotions while the leaders are "confronting sin and expecting repentance". When the victim hasn't gotten over it in a month or two, then the leaders suspect deep sin and they switch allegiance to the abusers. That is, unless the abusers are in a position of authority, in which the victims are told they are insubordinate to their "Biblical" authority.
Here's another way to think about this: You might just as well be asking, Is chemotherapy biblical? Is it the appropriate way to treat certain cancers? Should we seek the advice of a health professional when we are afflicted with persistent or serious symptoms of physical illness?
"Therapy" means "treatment intended to relieve or cure a disorder."
I would add, you might as well ask if "salvation" is biblical, since the Greek term for salvation means "healing," and Isaiah 53, speaking prophetically of the Cross of Christ proclaims, "By His stripes/wounds, we are healed." Can God's treatment for our disordered sinful and broken human condition (whether self-inflicted or inflicted by others--there's always some of both) come through other human beings--through the members of Christ's body? Could it even come from those technically on the outside of that community (consider the help Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, who was not even an Israelite was to Moses in Exodus 18 by giving him good counsel and also Jesus' teaching in Luke 9:50). The whole Bible from beginning to end is full of examples of Gods' people supporting and helping each other in a myriad of ways. I believe you are quite sincere, and I don't accuse you of anything, Grateful, but it really makes me sad that you even have to ask this question.
The Bible (and even Jesus) assumes when we are sick, we may seek the services of a physician. It never forbids believers seeking professional help with their problems, though, obviously, it may forbid us accepting advice or treatment that goes against our conscience or explicit Christian teaching or from seeking certain services from someone who is not a believer (e.g., accepting medical treatment that relies on killing human embryos, accepting legal services from a lawyer who is a non-believer to sue a fellow believer).
I am guessing you are asking if therapy is biblical to answer for yourself whether it is necessary and appropriate in your life. I think others have addressed the question of whether or not we need to find a specific example of everything in Scripture - I would argue that there are many valuable things that are not in Scripture simply because of the time in which it was written.
As for the other question, I'd argue that while there is no Biblical model that describes counseling as it is today, I think that there is an emphasis on truth, understanding, listening and supporting one another, seeking wisdom and healing, that counseling (ideally) remains in line with.
Does that answer your question, in any small way, grateful?
The word "biblical" isn't "biblical"!
Amen to Tangent. Grateful, do you really want to go down that road? It is the most anemic of all ideas. Just because something is'nt specifically mentioned directly in the Bible does not mean that makes it Biblical or unbiblical. The Bible doesn't even mention what books are suppose to be in it. Teaching such as the trinity are not directly in the Bible but is accepted as orthodox Christian teaching.
what road? just curious. Were Job's friends counselors? if it is something that is so necessary for healing, then shouldn't it be detailed in the Word to some degree? perhaps it is, i don't know. I think American society is fascinated with a victim mentality and it is becoming more and more detrimental to the self-reliant American culture - the backbone of which has been the evangelical church.
The road to hypocrisy. Instead of understanding the Bible as it is written, you come up with a set of criteria you force onto the Bible to determine what it says for you. Does the Bible say that "If it is something that is necessary for healing, then shouldn't it be detailed in the Word to some degree?" Well, no it doesn't. That is your opinion that you are trying to force on the Bible. So, now you have a double standard. You can write your own opinion on the Bible in the form of argument from silence, but when you're disagreeing with someone else's interpretation of the Bible, you argue that there cannot be an argument from silence. Which is it?
yep, you are correct, I'm a hypocrite. just like everyone else. .
Grateful, counseling is often meant to exhort or to encourage. There are plenty of places in the New Testament that speak of the need Christians have of one another in this regard. The book of Proverbs also has plenty of references to the need people have of good counsel.
Good counsel would be needed after being severely messed over by perverted men masquerading as spiritual leaders over you. There would be a lot of false thinking and bad emotions to work through.
I'm not sure why you associate it with introspective, victim mentality navel gazing. To those who were victimized by sexual abuse, especially as little children, or physical abuse, or maybe even physical problems such as fetal alcohol syndrome, your association of counseling with the concept of victim culture may appear cruel, kind of like you just want to throw Bible verses and demand people "get over it." I tend to believe people who are serious about counseling and putting into practice good counsel they receive are not victims, but victors.
Amen, Lynn.
Hi Lynn, you summed up my response well, thank you. That is one of the stereotypes I understand - but I strongly disagree with. Therapy is not about supporting someone "being a victim" but instead about giving people tools who have already decided to change. In fact, I have found that if someone comes into counseling believing in a victim mentality, counseling can do nothing for them until they address that.
I think that people who come into counseling are far stronger than they ever get credit for. They are deciding to deal with a painful past, in this case something they did not choose, and did not want, and say I'd like to reclaim my life and find a way through this. It's a sign of strength, not weakness.
Wow, Stephanie, that analysis puts things in a totally different perspective. Thanks. I am kind of a "get over it" kind of person, I suppose.
I think what's missing here is that Evangelicals are often fed the lie that emotions follow obedience. That is, that if we obey God, love will follow. I was told that often growing up in an Evangelical church, and guess what, the emotions never followed. I grudgingly went to church each week and what I learned was being a two-faced hypocrite, not a child of God. I learned that many of those around me had the same two-faced hypocrisy - they wanted to do the right things and have the relationship with God, but they put the cart before the horse.
So, we need to confront the lie that emotional fulfillment is some automatic result of rationalistic obedience or thought. I rationalistically know that God loves me. The Bible says so. But... I don't have an emotional sense of that love because my entire religious upbringing was about stuffing my emotions in a box. The authority figures in my life acted the same way - their love for me was objective - they fed me, they taught me, they disciplined me, therefore, I have to trust that they loved me.
That said, I have a lot of emotional issues to work through, and I have only recently begun to disconnect from the church I grew up in - the church that would probably shun me if I went to some "pagan counselor".
There is also a difference between genuine love and outward obedience. If we don't love Him because He first loved us, then getting our head on straight and our emotions in line will probably look like a lost soul confidently walking away from God. It's not hypocrisy, but it is one of the many paths to destruction.
Our emotions are real, but they are not very good lords. If happiness is your goal, you will have a very long road to pursue it and are most likely to find it as a byproduct rather than a primary goal.
Mark,
Thank you for your comments. I also grew up stuffing my feelings in a box. For a long time, I was proud of it because I thought it made me strong to push my feelings away.
It took me many years to find out that God gave us emotions. Among other things, they help let us know when something is not right. A healthy human can feel the whole range of human emotions.
When emotions are stuffed in a box, it can turn into depression or substance abuse, etc. I am by no means at the end of my journey. I wish you well on yours.
Job's friends were not counselors at all. All they did was tell Job that his woes were his fault and God was punishing him for some secret sin. That is not counseling or therapy or advise or wisdom. Likewise, evangelicals were not the self-reliant back bone in the founding of this country. There was a wide variety of Christians that included puritans, angelicans, Anabaptists, catholics. Inspite of what you might want to think, self-reliance is not a hallmark of evangelicals.
evangelical was too narrow - just meant "protestant work ethic" in its historical context
I think Grateful's inquiry is sincere. Just answer the question and if not, the answer will fall flat. But don't let your first response assume the question was an attack.
I have similar questions. I know we are to bear one another's burdens, which surely means we should listen to each other's problems and try to help them understand, solve or endure. But I am also convinced that much of humanism tries to "cure", "adjust" or evade sin and its effects by calling behavior or attitudes self-actualization, or mental illness or depression or whatever. That does not mean that mental illness and depression do not exist. I am sure they do. But I am also sure that most what what humanism and secularism are doing, with billions and billions of dollars, is not really improving the human condition much. So please don't confuse cynicism or skepticism with denial and rejection. Count some of us a open to information.
I know people who have been helped by counseling and some people who have just stayed really screwed up after years and years of counseling. I'm not impressed with those counseling relationships, but I'm sure its a way to make a living. I think if I wasn't improving, I'd rather spend my $100 a week at a bar and tell my problems to the bartender, but then, I'm a cynic.
Don, there's no doubt there can be good and bad counselors (and also there are those who truly want to get well and those who just want to wallow like victims). The trouble comes in when we can't tell one from the other or we naively or cynically assume it's always one way or the other. I was a psychology major at an Evangelical college, and I'm glad they took both Scripture and the findings and theories of modern Psychology seriously (just as most Christians take the most recent findings of various physical sciences seriously). I'm also glad they taught us to think critically not only about the modern findings and theories of the discipline of psychology, but also about the various interpretations and applications of Scripture that have been offered by various groups down through the centuries. As a written source of apostolic teaching, Scripture is unique in its authority, but it is never alone--we always come to it with what we have been taught it means (whether correctly or incorrectly). There are good and bad interpretations and applications of Scripture as well, just as there are good and bad interpretations and applications of the findings of the "soft" sciences that attempt a more objective study of human motivation, relational dynamics, and behavior.
Don,
I have pondered your comment for several days. It was interesting to me that you associated counseling with humanism and secularism.
I am someone who has benefited tremendously from counseling and psychiatry. I never once thought, "I need to hurry. I have an appointment with my humanist at 1pm." It has never occurred to me to think that way.
Within traditional medicine, practitioners vary widely in their competence and knowledge. That is why it is often wise to seek a second or third opinion for serious medical problems.
Over time, treatments evolve. Some practices, once commonplace, are now considered barbaric.
Plenty of conditions cannot be treated at all. With others, doctors take their best shot, predicting a 50-50 chance of success, or perhaps 80-20. In your comments, you put a lot of stock in surgeons, but some surgeons' patients have a higher chance of infection than others. Some patients have been the unwitting and unwilling recipients of foreign objects. Apparently, the technical term is "retained surgical items."
So, it does not surprise me that counselors and psychiatrists vary widely in talent and effectiveness. I was going to comment on your question about "cure" rate, but I saw Stephanie's excellent response. I agree with what she said about evidence-based counseling.
For me, I have found family systems theory and attachment theory to be most helpful.
Best wishes to you.
FYI, there is an article today about Tullian Tchividjian stepping down from Coral Ridge. I don't want to sugar coat what they said happened, but it seems a bit different than the other cases where it was deny, deny, deny until called to the carpet.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/06/21/billy-grahams-grandson-steps-down-from-florida-megachurch-after-admitting-an-affair/
So even the preachers of grace can be false. I'm reading a good book called Biblical Eldership which makes some excellent points about the biblical pattern of plurality in leadership. Any man who stands alone "at the top" of a church or organization needs accountability and peers. Jesus said not to lord it over one another. Whether a married couple, or church leaders, God designs for balance, loving confrontation and understanding pursuit of all the "one anothers" as part of a covenantal community.
Don't be afraid to lovingly speak into your friend's weaknesses. You may be the only one who can do so.
That's sad to read, but a very common stumbling block and temptation to men (and women) in any kind of authority role. That's a contrast with his grandfather's "never alone with a woman not his wife" lifelong ministry policy, which preserved Billy's sterling reputation in that regard.
I know well from my own experience, preaching grace and truth is never a guarantee one is living it (or truly understands it even--I'm reminded of a line from the poem by C.S. Lewis, "As the Ruin Falls", which is so wonderfully descriptive of the human condition: "I talk of love--a scholar's parrot may talk Greek--but, self-imprisoned, always end where I begin.")
Even the Apostle Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 9:19-27 the self-discipline over his own desires and needs in which he constantly engaged in order to not in any way hinder the gospel message he preached and "lest when I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified" (vs. 27).
I agree with Grateful.... at the same time, a lot depends on who is doing the counseling.
If I could add one thing to Stephanie's wonderful resources above: The fallacy in exclusive Christian counseling is not separating mind from spirit. We definitely separate body from spirit, but Christians do not often enough make the distinction between mind and spirit. I do take offense when I hear an alleged counselor pick up a Bible and say, "There's nothing I need to know about human behavior that I don't find right in here." If a cardiologist or oncologist picked up a Bible and said, "There's nothing I need to know about heart attacks or cancer that I can't find right in here," we would run quickly and ourselves new doctors. And yet, Christians will trust a therapist to fix issues, often to do with the subconscious, with cognitive, Biblical and often exhausting therapies that have little to do with simple faith in Christ.
Good points, Carolpu. And yet, how many of us would allow a surgeon to operate on our bodies without some assurance that both the techniques to be used, and his or her skills, have been repeatedly tested and found to be very beneficial. I don't see the same scientific scrutiny, testing, and proving in the counseling domain. I am sure many try to test and prove, but orthopedic surgeons seem to have a much better "cure" rate, at least by the testimonies of their patients.
Beyond helping me acknowledge my true thoughts and feelings, how does a counselor help me correct those that may be incompatible with love and righteousness? How might that be done while neglecting the spirit? These are my sincere questions as a Christian.
Don, one of the things I like about this website is that I believe it does attract people who may present challenging viewpoints but in a thought-provoking not uselessly combative way as I see on other sites. I hope to address your thoughts in that attitude, as I read your questions in the former light.
You are right that counseling is a soft science, and not always subject to testing & research as are disciplines like oncology, cardiology. However, is it not without research altogether - here is one example of a meta-analysis of research studies which indicates substantiation for the efficacy of cognitive-behavioral therapy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584580/ And there are many more like it indicating or dis-indicating treatment effectiveness.
Though there are many different schools of thought and levels of experience, I would argue that you can find people who seek evidence-based practices. While not a cure rate exactly, in professional associations I see counselors being challenged to substantiate their treatment choices with research and proven standards of practice.
I think it is certainly appropriate to ask your counselor what they know about evidence-based counseling practices and how they use them to inform their work. A counselor that is threatened by that question would not be one you'd want to go to, anyway.
As for the question of neglecting your spiritual needs, in my opinion, the people whom I designate at pastoral counselors in this article represent the fusion of the best counseling theory has to offer along with thoughtful attention to spiritual exhortation. We are body, mind and spirit, and I believe Carolpu was indicating that in these circles simply that spirit is given a disproportional place in the lineup, especially to the neglect of the others. (Carolpu, correct me if I read that wrong.)
Thanks for presenting your thoughts on the issue!
Carolpu, well put, thanks for sharing. I have never heard it put in those terms but I agree with it.
One of the most valuable benefits of counseling is having the opportunity to explore one's own story. In my experience of being submerged in a Gothardism environment, it was not safe to know the truth about my circumstances, feelings, beliefs, doubts, needs... It was not safe, because if I ever began to open up to a fellow believer about a struggle I was having, my fellow Gothardites began quoting Gothard platitudes:
"A wife's calling in life is to make her husband successful;"
"Have no expectations; you have no rights;"
"When your ways please the Lord you'll have success in all you do; where have you erred?"
"Let there be no evil communication; only speak about an issue if you are part of the problem or part of the solution;"
"Perhaps you are harboring bitterness?"
"Fact-Faith-Feelings -- that's the correct approach."
Ad nauseum.
My fellow Gothardites too often whacked me with Gothard's twist on Bible verses. And so I suffered in silence. When I finally began to break free, I needed someone who would LISTEN to me. I had spent a few decades being the listener, and I literally could not tolerate any more "encouragement" or "exhortation."
There are not many places where a person can tell the truth of their own story, and a counselor's office ought to be one of them. Give me a counselor who, for starters, can listen to and sit with the truth of a counselee's life story and not have to fix them or exhort them. Now that is a gift.
Although the platitudes you mention are unique to Gothard, with one from Campus Crusade thrown in there, my experience in life has been unlearning this behavior myself and trying to be on guard against it since. More to the point, a large percentage of non IBLP Christians and unbelievers alike are quick to either rush to judgment, or to be pat "answer men." What distinguishes people who follow Bill's teaching is the false sense of discernment coupled with authoritarian leanings. IOW, they trip over themselves in rushing to judgment because of pride in their supposed spiritual capabilities, and usually the answer is you have gotten out from under authority.
Everybody has to be so quick to be "right" that nobody has time to listen to to what another person may be thinking or feeling. And by the way (they might say), what are you doing thinking anyway? That is for your authorities.
I plead guilty, LynnCD.
I as well, Don. I started pointing the index finger to find fault, and then realized I had three other fingers pointing back at me!
We all have those moments. Myself included. It feels safer, to be authoritarian. The possibility of there being another right perspective (more than one appropriate/healthy perspective, in some cases) or another perspective that is more right than yours is threatening and scary. That is, unless you trust both yourself (integrity, character) and the God you have faith in to be competent and capable to handle a difference of opinion.
Authoritarianism is a false sense of safety, but I understand why people are attracted to it, for those reasons!
A very valuable perspective, Ann. Thank you for writing this.
You're right, Ann. That is a gift and is rare. I've been that person with the harsh advice - what I thought was telling the truth in love - and I can't think of one time where it seemed to benefit or help the other person in their struggle. I'm realizing more and more the last few years that what people need is to be heard first without a lot of advice. Listening with caring and compassion goes a lot further than we may know. Giving someone permission to feel their pain and for it not to look perfectly "Christian" but to trust that God can handle that. The best truth to give to a hurting fellow believer is the reminder of who they are in Christ and reminders that God can handle their pain, their struggles, their raw emotions. Something about reminding someone that God is with them in those moments and is not judging them and is not angry at them for it seems to go a long way. Being humble and admitting your own failures and struggles as you talk with one another is good, too. Who needs a friend or counselor who never fails or struggles? That only leads to more condemnation.
Anyway, I am grateful for good counselors to go to but do believe the Body of Christ could do a whole lot better at doing this for each other on our own, too.
Ann, your comment better sums up my whole experience with Gothardism -& what it takes to come out of it- than anything I've ever been able to clearly state for myself.
Agreed - I appreciate your comment Ann.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/josh-duggar-could-face-civil-suit-from-molestation-victim/ar-AAcrnyq
I find it interesting that one of Josh Duggar's victims, not a sister, is now bringing a civil suit against him. I wonder how this will play out. One of the promises of gothardism is that if you follow all the myriad steps of living the perfect christian life that God will protect you from such things. I think that is what BG is trying to do, that if he meditates more deeply, more holy, more more correctly, then God will protect him and absolve him from those who were offended.
I would value people's thoughts about whether having a fundamentalist background makes us unique challenges for counsellors. I recently went to a counsellor who used CTB (which I had used before and found helpful with another counsellor). I was depressed, and had been severely betrayed by my best friend. I spent 10 sessions with this new counsellor who would respond to my story with "your cognitive distortion is xyz" or "that is a distortion".
I was getting more and more frustrated because I didn't have the words or skills to say, "LISTEN to my feelings". I am so conditioned to having people tell me what is true, correct, real, and what I think, feel and believe. This counselling was doing me harm: I was suicidal after each session, but I still kept going back hoping that somehow my counsellor and I could connect. My counsellor, of course, was getting paid for every session, so we both had reasons to keep trying.
My conclusion is that for some people coming from a background of blaming and invalidation (in my case fundamentalism), CBT can actually cause harm by pointing out 'distortions' but not validating the emotional content. I don't think I wanted to wallow in my pain, but I did want someone to acknowledge it before dismissing it as a distortion.
It was not that the counsellor was necessarily inept. It was just that being invalidated all my life IS the crux of my problem. CBT in this case felt like more of the same invalidation of my feelings of betrayal and despair.
I don't think I would ever go to a CBT counsellor again given my issues with not being able to say, "no, you are wrong in your interpretation... this is what is going on". If a client isn't able to say this to a counsellor, then it seems that some types of therapy might require an emotional sophistication that people from fundamentalist/invalidating backgrounds don't have yet. In my case, CBT is like being beaten with a stick.
Is there a form of therapy which a motherly person just holds you for an hour while you cry? I think this is what I am looking for.
Hi Cat
As an CBT therapist I want to affirm you (without charging you with distortion :) that your interpretation is valid. I could definitely see the objectives of reframing or challenging cognitive distortions being invalidating instead of helpful. SaraD is correct in that person-centered (aka Rogerian) counseling is about simply supporting the person without providing interpretation, and it some cases that may be exactly what you need. May I encourage you to look for that? Therapy is NOT meant to be something which leaves you feeling suicidal every week, though certainly talking about difficult subjects can bring about rough feelings. Ultimately though, it should be a give and take - some days you leave feeling relieved, and some you will fill more stirred up and possibly negative. But if it's been all bad for you, I encourage you to look for another counselor and tell them what you're looking for. I appreciate it when people tell me about bad therapy experiences so I can be sure to be careful of that when I work with them. Hope that helps a bit, and thanks for sharing your honest opinion.
Cat, I think you should look for a counselor that specializes in person-centered therapy. That approach views the client as someone capable of self-healing given the right environment and seeks to create that environment through offering empathy and understanding.
It looks like I'm a little late discovering this, but I just wanna thank the author. I'm in the process of admitting to myself that the mistreatment in my life actually occurred and wasn't my fault, and I think I might need therapy. This helps a lot.
Salome - I still check back in to make sure I am following what's going on! I'm glad it was useful for you. I hope you might consider therapy - it can really help. Take some time in finding the right match for you, and I think when you're ready you'll get a lot out of it.
Here's an open question to anyone still reading this. I'm thinking about writing a blog for the American Counseling Association for counselors who might treat clients from a fundamentalist religious background. I'm realizing that there could be a lot of barriers to effective treatment, such as not being aware of some of the special language used.
So I thought I'd ask you, since you're the experts in this kind of experience:
"If you were going to counseling, what would you want your counselor to know about your background?"
P.S. Even though Recovering Grace already disguises your info, I will not use any names or specifying information in the article - assuming your response indicates there is a need for such an article!
Thank you!!!
I was recently helped by a Focus on the Family counselor who recommended the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse," and he very kindly sent it to me. It has been so interesting to read. I had spoken with him about a sexual crime that had been committed in our extended family, and how it has been difficult for many of the people in my peer group in the family to face it for what it is and confront it-- and the perpetrator-- because of our teaching on authority all our lives. The perp is father/father-in-law, and we have all been raised with the "you NEVER question your authority; your authority is just below God in the chain of command; any disagreement with authority is totally dishonoring and God will punish you, etc" and the perp has used the line that us setting boundaries is a lack of forgiveness and grace, it's dishonoring of father, etc. Honestly, even though it wasn't said like this, we pretty much were taught our entire lives that our authority wasn't ever to be confronted about sin-- there was no way to do that. Even though I am getting stronger in recognizing the lies and God's truth, it has been very confusing and a hard struggle to get past the whole confronting authority, who really IS authority, that there aren't as many "authorities" as I was taught(!), getting past feeling subservient and dishonoring when we have to confront our (former) "authority," trusting my instincts even though they go against what the "authority" says. . .
And we often have no sex education, or it is very limited or unhealthy education. And we don't realize that sexual abuse happens to other people, too-- we are in the dark about so many things because of being "protected,"
and not being allowed to talk to people or learn and grow outside of the box, that we are amazed to learn that ours isn't the only family with these unaddressed issues, whatever they are.
Also, people who grew up in these backgrounds were trained to distrust counselors as humanistic and worldly, so just going to a counselor is a big step! We need time to process, but the fact that we are seeking help from you is huge! Because fear and distrust are tools used against us by our "authorities" our whole lives, they are a part of the core of us.
I hope that's helpful--
I agree with Anon's comments, as well as Cat's.
The most helpful part of counseling to me was finding out that I am not crazy. I felt a bit like Ingrid Bergman in Gaslight.
It helped immensely to have exchanges like this:
"My family says I am not reasonable to set xyz boundary. Am I crazy?
"No. You are not crazy. Healthy people set boundaries like that all the time."
From Anon - "the perp has used the line that us setting boundaries is a lack of forgiveness and grace, it's dishonoring of father, etc." I have heard these exact words.
From Cat - "I didn't have the words or skills to say, 'LISTEN to my feelings'. I am so conditioned to having people tell me what is true, correct, real, and what I think, feel and believe." This is very good too.
I agree - Instead of needing to be told that I blow things out of proportion or require anger management, I needed someone to tell me it's OK to experience emotions, including anger. It is OK to listen to myself and trust my gut. It is OK to disagree with my family. I am allowed to choose my own life.
I would want my counselor to know that I respect the authority of God and His Word more than human reasoning including my own, but that I need to be shown the error of my own thinking without someone trying to show that by discounting the authority of Scripture. I don't mind being asked to explain my reasoning and my interpretation of Scripture, but not asked to second guess what the Bible says (as opposed to what I think it means). If a counselor thinks you can't be mentally healthy and believe the Word of God, the counselor is ignorant of human history and has a very small view of human nature. I'd rather die "crazy" than conclude that God is a liar. His is a Love strong as death. Song of Solomon 8:6.
Don, you seem to be working off of a number of negative misconceptions. Therapist, counselors etc are suppose to work with someone's value system, religion, ethnicity, culture etc. A counselor is suppose to help you define what is right or wrong in a situation. You seem to work off of the Gothard notion that counseling and therapy are Godless ways of working with problems. The only this Godless here is Gothard's attitudes about therapy which is leaving people in bondage. Yes, there are atheists etc but a real counselor isn't suppose to bring in their own views and opinions into therapy but work with the person's own value system and religion, not make a judgement call on it. My husband is a marriage and family therapist and this is how he is trained and he works with all sorts of people and situations. If you are looking for a therapist, you are certainly able to request someone that is a Christian or has those values and that may help you feel more comfortable. People do so all the time.
Exactly. But "supposed" to is no guarantee. And presuming that all counseling is good and Gothard's stupidity is the "only" bad thing doesn't quite cut it in a world where counselors abuse clients just as much as preachers and priests and where many people remain in bondage after years of therapy, sometimes dependent on the therapy. So I don't see your affirmations very helpful in clearing up my thinking. There are plenty of self-described Christians (moreso if I say I will only pay a "Christian") who don't know much about God's Truth.
I hope your husband is more successful saving marriages than nearly every other counselor out there. I don't see many being rescued. Maybe it's just bad marketing on the part of the "profession" but that's not my fault.
You don't build trust by insisting on it. You have to earn it. I know I'm cynical. That's where I am.
The question was asked what we would desire in counseling and answered honestly and you told me how wrong and ignorant I am. Not sure it helped. Maybe your husband could offer a better response. I'd be willing to read it.
Perhaps not a lot of people are still reading the comment section of this article, but I think you should write your blog post. It sounds like an excellent topic that might help a lot of people.
If you include your question at the end of your post (where it won't be buried in another post), you might get a lot of insightful replies in the comment section there.
Thank you all for your feedback and thoughts!
Anonymous, what you said is really helpful, all of it! I am thinking that it might also be useful to address the potential for trying to 'please' the counselor as an authority figure as well, because approval from them might be equated as success. Would you agree with that?
Don, I can understand where you're coming from, and I want to second what rob war stated: we are not supposed to impose any value system on the client. I especially liked how rob war noted it is not our job "to help you define what is right and wrong in a situation." Please know I sympathize with your concerns, and I'm guessing that you have been exposed to counselors or representations of counselors that would seem to threaten your belief systems. I know there are always going to be counselors who would not live up to the standards of our profession, as is true in any profession. But that is not AT ALL what we are supposed to do, and what I consider to be professional or ethical behavior.
With great respect, I believe these kind of concerns can originate when a person has a history with culturally fundamentalist groups. While I don't know your particular situation and this may have nothing to do with it for you personally, some people will understandably come out of these environments with a lingering worldview that states everyone you interact with must have a direct impact on your faith. There is no context for someone who doesn't agree with your beliefs but respects you as a person and doesn't try to take that or anything helpful away from you. I want to reiterate that the latter is more in line with appropriate counselor behavior.
I wrote about this (black-and-white thinking) in more detail in my previous RG article, 12 Characteristics of Fundamentalist Societies That Shelter Sexual Abuse: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/twelve-characteristics-of-fundamentalist-societies-that-shelter-sexual-abuse/)
Horse, that is a good idea and thanks for the encouragement. I am not sure of the details in updating an article, but I'll discuss it with the team and see what they think! You all have given such great responses I'd love to open it up for more. Thank you!
Stephanie, thank-you for your kind words. I know my husband has had a number of classes and seminars in how to deal with clients that have difference culture, value and beliefs and how to work with those clients in their own culture, values and beliefs. While I think the image is that the therapist is going to encourage someone to leave their religion or faith or culture has probably been ingrained why the likes of Gothard. For a Christian therapist, the reverse situation is more common in that a LTP type couples come looking for help with their relationship. A wise Christian counselor would not throw the Bible at them, which would be a turn off and turn away but help the LTP couple find their core values or background and it is that sort of previous type values that will lead to the conclusion the LTP is not the best situation, not the counselor telling them they are wrong. This also applies to immigrants from a different cultures where expectations a totally different from American culture. Many oriental cultures have expectations that the parents live with the oldest son and his family or have much more rigid ideas of roles for men and women. Using my example, the Chinese son now has his parents with him and his wife and children. Now there is all sorts of conflicts with this. An wise counselor would try to work with all involved and help the family find the balance between expected Chinese culture norms and living now in the US and what that means. I'm just trying to give real time examples to help those on this blog understand real therapy and real therapists and it isn't what Gothard has feed them.
Thanks, but Gothard merely reinforced my prejudices, so keep sharing but don't assume that all you have to do is undo what Gothard taught. I didn't take him that seriously, but I was raised skeptical of the mental health professions so its more skepticism than alienation built on false perceptions. My sister goes to counseling, discovers that she truly does not love her husband, divorces her husband. Where is the goodness in all that? Where is the hope? He may have been insensitive, etc., but he was no abuser or mean person. Just a dumb guy. God forbid.
I am sorry about your sister's marriage. I really don't think though one can "blame" her decision to divorce her husband on her therapy or counseling. While you didn't see him as a bad guy, there is alot in any marriage that no one sees that goes on behind close doors. Did they even try marriage therapy together? Since therapy like legal work is confidential, you really are not going to know what went on in either her counseling or marriage. Divorce is always tragic and sad but her unhappiness in her marriage was probably going on for a long time and your sister's choices are her own not anyone elses.
I blame her hopelessness. But neither do I credit the counselor for guiding her to her godless intentions. I simply find such counsel fruitless. I can't say for sure though. Don't know what she may have gained. Her second marriage has been very successful for 20 years and I thank God for the comfort she has found, and yet, I grieve standing with as groomsman with the first husband, witnessing vows followed by holy communion when those vows were abandoned in hopelessness. I would blame myself for being a less than encouraging brother more than I would blame the counselor.
And what is LTP? Sometimes I don't know what people are talking about here.
LTP = live together partner. In other words, a couple living together without a marriage license. Sorry, I should have clarified it, I am use to my husband's therapy lingo
Since there are so many variations, and more every day, it might be simpler to just call them concubines or lovers.
I've had two children helped by counseling in their early twenties living with doubts about their self worth not unusual to large families that have been in ATI-like environments. I have also had many friends who got no real help from counseling, meaning their marriages still crashed and burned after years of counseling, they are still as hardhearted or hard headed, blaming everyone but themselves for their problems, or completely lacking in trust that God will bring them through the rough times, and many dollars and hours poorer for their counseling experiences. And I don't think those counselors were bad or quacks. I just conclude it is hard not to keep taking $50 per visit from an insurance company when someone keeps coming for counseling, even when they aren't really being helped. I don't respect that as a profession, but I understand it. I mean, it might help, right?
I'd rather spend my money at a bar talking to a sympathetic bartender than a healer who brings no healing. The burden of proof is on the person asking for the money. That is true in every profession and market.
My perspective is that there is both an art and a science to it (excuse the cliche but I think it applies).
I think some people are better than others, sometimes experience is part of that but not always. Counselors can make mistakes. Sometimes they collude with clients, sometimes they fail to see what's really going on. I do not think all counselors are equally perceptive and helpful.
But there are two parts: a wise helper who will truly grasp the situation and help lay out a road map to something better, the second part is person seeking help.
I was really intrigued a couple years ago when my wife and I were watching some of the "Nanny 911" type of episodes, where a parent would be crying and asking for any help at all. When given specific things they needed to do, it was often the parent, not the child, who was the most resistant and defensive. I've seen that in marriages, too, where a spouse who seems to be crying out for change turns out to be very resistant to letting go of status quo.
In that case, what can a counselor do? They can lay out a viable plan and they can explain to the person what can be realistically expected to happen if they choose this way or that way but they can't hold a gun to the head and force a choice. Brute force is not "counseling" or assisting.
Long story short, if the counselor leads a person down a bad path or fails to offer real help, that's a fail on the counselor's part but if good and helpful information was offered but rejected, that's on the person.
IMHO a self directed approach to "counseling" is the best route to go. I have blessed to have spent some time in a Catholic monastery. When one area of our life has been negatively affected, the whole person is affected (body, soul, and spirit). BG's legalistic teachings, for example, can produce much damage to a person. What works for me is physical excercize, reading a good book (not the boring nammy pammy stuff that the Gothardites read, but, for example a John Grisham legal thriller). Also Spending time in a traditional Finnish sauna, motorcycle riding, going on a Chi machine, prayer, meditation, and yes, morning Bible readings have brought me much healing from the negative energies from not only the ultra legalisms, but from everything else. Sometimes you got to do something a little bit crazy (as long as it is legal and does not bring harm to people or other creatures)!
That all sounds very therapeutic to me!
Idk Don, it takes both partners to change a marriage. That has nothing to do with the therapist. Just saying.
Well, In Hosea 2 it only takes one determined lover full of grace and truth. It depends on what you mean by "save". If the goal is mutual happiness, I think you are correct but the goal is inadequate. If the goal is for one or both to love as Jesus loves, I don't think success is dependent on the adequacy of response. But blaming the recalcitrant partner certainly lets the counselor off the hook, and when "trying" and failing gets your ticket to remarriage in your church, the counseling stopover has multiple responsibility assuaging benefits.
Please forgive my harshness and unsympathy. The question I am asking is when is the counselor helping? Always, just by showing up? Only when the person want to be helped badly enough? (I.e. if you really, really believe, God will heal you.)
What would that person's prospect look like without the counselor?
Hi Don,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify what you were saying. I think we are going to disagree on the healing that can come out of counseling, but that's okay. I get that it's hard to quantify the results, and from what you've seen counseling has only brought negative outcomes.
I do agree with you that marriage counseling does not necessarily save marriages/relationships, but for a different reason than I believe you do. I've found from my experience that people tend to come to marriage counseling when they're almost ready to quit, but they want to feel like they've tried everything. That's understandable, but I find it also doesn't really work to come into counseling at that point, because they're already almost ready to be done with the relationship. That is my experience anyway.
I respect the fact that we need to earn your trust as a profession. We do have the burden of proof. If we acted like we didn't we'd be no better than any authoritarian leader who asks people to follow blindly. I think we should welcome the opportunity to prove ourselves. While I'm not a marriage counselor primarily, I am confident in sending any of you to research Cognitive-behavioral therapy for anxiety, depression, PTSD and more - there are many studies indicating good results. So - while I respect your right to have a differing opinion of course, I can't help but try to show you what I see in the profession - which is more emphasis on research, evidenced-based results, peer supervision and accountability.
On a lighter note, don't worry about not knowing what LTP mean, Don - I have to say I wasn't sure what it meant either! So if you hadn't asked, I was going to. Maybe that's more of an MFT term, rob war? My license track was general counseling (LPC) so I may not be in the know like your husband! I do appreciate your support in sharing what counseling can do. Counselors tend to be a passionate bunch, and we really believe in what we do or we get out. It doesn't pay enough on its' own to do it without the passion. :)
Todd K thanks for the good ideas. I'd recommend those on their own or with people in counseling. Self-care is just good!
Sarah, I agree with you though I wish it was different. Oftentimes one partner will want to stay when the other wants to go.
Thanks everyone for good discussion - I really enjoy being challenged by these questions.
Stephanie, I would second your comment about marriage therapy. My husband's experience more often than not is that sadly a number of couples come for therapy towards the end and one of the couples already has given up but is coming either to appease the other partner that they "tried" therapy and it "didn't work" as to justify ending the marriage. My husband is a masters in social work and has a sub speciality in marriage and therapy with a license in that as well. Your prospective, experience and insight are wonderful.
You both make good points on that and show just how weak the church is in teaching and supporting biblical marriage. A Christian may have to "let go" in the cases set out in I Corinthians 7, but should never "give up"; as long as there is life, there is hope.
Thanks for your gracious response. I was NOT saying there is never healing or that I am familiar only with negative outcomes. I clearly stated I have had two children helped. My "no healing" was with reference to the credibility of longstanding counseling that does NOT bring healing. Shouldn't the counselor quit taking the money at some point? I would have a hard time taking a regular monthly legal fee form a client who received no benefit from my counsel, whether because they rejected it or they followed it but it was actually unhelpful. "Counseling" necessarily implies counsel that should be beneficial.
I agree that we should NOT be taking money from someone when they are not being helped by counseling. In fact, there is an ethical standard to not do what is called "persistently over-treating" simply to gain money. I am biased against long-term treatment, because I believe it can foster dependence rather than results. If we make our clients dependent on us, then what happens if we die? We stop working for whatever reason? That's really unethical.
However, the Psychodynamic school of therapy (which started with Freud) believes that multi-weekly, years-long psychoanalysis sessions is what you have to do. I'll just say I don't agree that is the approach to go with, but speak with an expert in that area and decide for yourself.
The counselor's goal, IMO, should be to work themselves out of a job.
Thanks again for the food for thought!
And I truly appreciate and admire your approach!
Interesting discussion. Having been a psychology undergrad and having been on the receiving end of some therapy (I have always chosen Christian therapists), I would say, just like in any profession, therapists differ in skill and some work better with some populations and personalities than others. Just like with who you choose to be your doctor and who you choose to style your hair, there are issues of personal fit and compatibility of philosophy and values as well as professional qualifications, and you have to ultimately trust your gut and know it's okay to shop around for the right fit (which for me never means someone who will not challenge me where I may be stuck in dysfunctional patterns of relating to myself or others, but absolutely also means someone who will have warmth, respect and sensitivity to provide a safe space for me to get in better touch with areas in which I am hurting and need to experience the love and acceptance of God in a concrete way).
The assumption in my particular spiritual tradition is that authority does not equal authoritarian ("Lording it over" someone is contrary to the law of Christ). A good spiritual father deeply respects the freedom of the spiritual child and doesn't try to usurp God's role in a person's life. Similarly, a good therapist ought to be a sensitive support, a skilled teacher, and a knowledgable guide to intra- and inter-personal dynamics, not a dictator.
Karen,
you bring up some incredible insights. There is a huge difference between having a "spiritual director" found in Orthodox and Catholic traditions and the discipleship movement which emphasized an authoritarian relationship. Bill Gothard was influenced by the authoritarian movement with flash backs to Watchman Nee. I think people that came from authoritarianism where the pupil, child, student, disciple, wife is just suppose to submit to what the are told by their teacher, shepard, husband, parent has spilled over into people's views. It then stops being a relationship of guidance and direction that allows free will, questions and exploration and turns relationships into mini dictatorships of control. Someone coming out of that would naturally be uncomfortable of what counseling and therapy are. Counseling and therapy is not a mini dictatorship where the client is suppose to do or obey what they are told.
I love what you are both saying here. But even good counseling, at its best, seems like paying someone to do what God intends our shepherds to do in voluntary relationships. I don't mind the church paying someone to be available to counsel, but when I pay a counselor, am I getting the equivalent of a loving shepherd? Does a sheep pay a shepherd (except with the wool off its back or the meat on its bones!)?
To Don Rubottom:
I have been following this discussion, and I wouldn't want to take any sides here if there is such a thing as sides to be taken, but after thinking about it I felt like I wanted to at least say that I very much appreciate the strong stand you take, referring to your initial post in response to Stephanie's question, that you would want to honor the authority of Scripture over anything else that might come up in counseling.
I also wanted to add what occurred to me (and probably others before me), that counseling could be profitable, but also that psychologically vulnerable people could potentially, in a worst-case scenario, be led by a counselor to take a certain path just as much as they could be led by BG or any heretical teacher to take a different kind of path -- and both of those paths, though very different, maybe even opposite, could be wrong, leading away from Christ Himself, to philosophy or traditions (Colossians 2:8).
I got reminded of James 3:1, which talks about there not being many teachers in the church because teachers will receive greater judgment. It seems to me that anyone who takes on any kind of teaching or even potentially advice-giving role, such as a counselor, also takes on an obligation to be extremely careful that they are not in any way, even if it's not by their words or actions but simply by their manner, encouraging anyone to take a path that leads away from the Lord.
And for those of us who might be seeking help it definitely is our responsibility before the Lord to make our choices in the light of His presence and not be influenced by anyone who might, even subtly, be leading us away from Him.
As we all know, we need to seek to receive grace from the Lord to follow Him rather than make any kind of effort to keep the law, and we need to be delivered from legalism and trying to keep the law; but we also need to be careful to remember that there's a potential to be so relieved by feeling freed from legal demands that it temporarily seems like "help" to feel like it's suddenly okay to do things that eventually can be damaging. (Speaking from personal experience unfortunately.)
Anyway, Don, I appreciated your point. (And a disclaimer to other readers: I'm not saying that there is no potential to be genuinely profited by counseling. I wasn't addressing that point and don't want to be involved in that conversation. Just saying that it's necessary to be careful how you choose.)
Thanks, Grace. I do appreciate Stephanie's spirit and her loving concern. I have acknowledge that my children have been helped by counseling. But it is scary to select a counselor and frustrating to see them paid when results are invisible. The cautions you express should certainly be in their minds as they serve each client. It is a grave responsibility to assume.
HI Grace, thanks for your insights. And as you say below, don't ignore your conscience, and follow the guidance of your faith.
I don't want to "take sides" either - it's not as useful as us all gaining understanding and wisdom from each other. But I do want to address one thing I personally view as a misconception (and I respect you if you disagree) - that of the counselor being equated with a teacher in Scripture. Oddly enough, I do agree with the advanced responsibility you express - I think anyone in leadership or authority, including doctors, ministers, counselors, teachers, etc. have to be aware to not misuse their authority, and be held accountable to do so.
But I want to clarify the words "advice-giving" - I think that most people hold that perception of counselors, but that's really not what we're here for. I think of people like life coaches as those who do that, or even your pastor/minister. We are not here to teach Scripture, or how to "be" in life, whatever beliefs we have ourselves. Instead, we are here to help you discover what YOU believe, help YOU come up with ideas, support YOUR choices even if we may outline some potential negative consequences, etc. If I see that a client is looking to get my approval I immediately try to make everything I say value-neutral - because I want him/her to depend on themselves, not me. I would never want the responsibility of advising someone on how to live their lives, it would be assuming a power that I do not deserve.
Please know, I don't think you meant all that by your one small word choice! But I wanted to take the opportunity to clarify, as I believe that's relevant to the understanding of counseling as a whole and this discussion of where the counselor stands with leading someone to or away from their faith. Counselors are not pastors. We cannot take on that responsibility for our client's beliefs. If they have specifically requested we discuss matters of faith, I'm happy to talk to them about it within the context they allow. But I do not teach or advice-give, referring them to a church or similar institution when appropriate.
I feel strongly that it would be unethical of me to start to parse out what may or may not constitute leading someone away from God and control my behavior accordingly in a professional sense, because then I put myself in the role of controlling someone's faith - which I should and ultimately could not do. Again, I believe my role is to help the person I work with discover what is right for them, ask questions, and find their own version of relief and healing. Were I to try to influence a person's faith journey in my role as a counselor, I feel it would be an abuse of that role, not dissimilar to Gothard's abysmal "Counseling for Sexual Abuse" handout...he had no training as a counselor.
As a client, you should absolutely follow your conscience and not work with a counselor you felt was acting in any way that is incompatible with your goals for your life, especially living your faith. But outside of a Bible-based counselor, it would not be suitable for you to plan on seeking spiritual teaching or advice from a counselor - their job should be to support you, ask questions, teach you behavioral/relational tools, and so forth. If your goal is spiritual teaching or advice, that's wonderful, but I'd suggest a Bible-based counselor or a respected pastor, or even a wise friend. I have gotten great advice and training from all of these people at one time or another.
I believe you expressed yourself with grace, Grace, (no pun intended, honestly!) and I hope that you do not mind my taking the opportunity to share what was brought to mind.
Hi Stephanie,
I actually thought of the points you're making while I was writing, and that's why I said "potentially" advice-giving. I do know that that's not how counselors see themselves, but in my experience it can happen anyway. And especially young and naive clients can take it that way without the counselor even intending it.
I also didn't mean to equate the counselor with the teacher in the church. That's why I said it "reminds me of," kind of like a "cf." kind of thing. As far as I can see there's nothing whatsoever in the Bible that refers to the modern concept of counseling. I just thought it would be something that would be good to keep in mind. Like I said it would have helped me at a certain time, when I was young and naive, to hear things like that.
The idea or interpretation that if something isn't directly referenced or mentioned in the Bible that it is unbiblical or questionable. There are many verses through-out that mention seeking wise counsel and advice. Just read the book of Proverbs. But this type of hermeneutics can lead those that follow it down some pretty dangerous roads. Look at modern technology, the Bible doesn't mention cars, airplanes, trains, bikes, computers etc. Yet, some Amish type groups state that because these things are not mentioned, they are unbiblical. Look at modern medicine, the Bible doesn't mention blood transfusions or organ transplants yet JW refuse these life saving procedures because they are not found in the Bible. Look at abortion, the Bible does not directly say it is murder and some liberal religious people do use that excuse to support abortion. Yet, one can read some referenced verses and see that this is a baby in the womb. This sort of thinking that because the Bible doesn't mention it, therefore it is wrong. Bill Gothard used this thinking quite well. Look at his ideas on dating and courtship plus all the rest.
Rob, I really agree with you a lot of the time, but you are so defensive in this discussion that I do not see your critique of others' statements as fair or well reasoned. It is a straw man to compare technology to counseling. There is nothing new under the sun with respect to human emotions, mental attitudes, self-delusion, relational dysfunction, phobias, or anything else. I frankly believe that Job, Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes reckon or wrestle with every situation, or analogous ones, a counselor may face. There is nothing new. That "my problems are special or unique" is just one more human delusion.
Then too, the Scripture does say to bear one another's burdens and what Stephanie and you describe as "good" counseling seems to be very bountiful in burden bearing, listening well is a good example. And yet, you are clearly implying that man has discovered means of beneficially assisting the thinking and emotions of other men completely inaccessible to the prophets and apostles, or Christ and the Holy Spirit, that they founders of the Faith were a less developed human race than we, and that we are truly blessed to be living in the age of mental health services and licensed counseling. I look around and do not see the evidence, but I do not claim omniscience> And yet again, Stephanie assures us that Freudians are completely wrong and many branches of licensed counselors behave in manners she considers to be unethical, damaging or merely fruitless. Possibly worse, from my cynical perspective, she assures that the goal is to help me discover what is "right for me". But what if what is "right for me" is the way of death? Herein is my confusion. Herein is my fear of man-centered solutions to very real problems having very spiritual and eternal dimensions to them. Malachi and Peter both say if I don't love my wife, God won't listen to me. Therefore, a husband is not aided by having his non-love clarified so he can act on it, he desperately needs to learn to love and be reminded of its importance in eternity.
I like you both and strongly approve of your goals and commitment to the welfare of those receiving counseling. But goals and sincerity do not rebuild broken lives.
Why isn't objective truth infinitely more important than "what I believe for myself"?
Rob, in response to what you're saying, I wasn't advocating that we should only do things that are mentioned in the Bible. I was thinking to myself, I use a computer, I drive a car. I also take vitamins, and that's not in the Bible, and neither is food allergies, but I have those and sometimes I need to restrict my diet.
Sometimes I get convicted by the Spirit in my conscience not to eat something that others are eating because it's not good for me. It has also happened the other way around, that I got convicted to "eat what is set before me" and be willing to accept the allergic reaction for the sake of the feelings of the brothers and sisters I am with.
So I do believe that the Spirit might very well be convicting another person that he or she needs to get counseling because that's the means that the Spirit intends to use to shepherd that one, and I would certainly tell that person -- if they happened to ask me! -- that they should pay attention to the Spirit's leading in their conscience (not, you should or shouldn't get counseling). It's not for me to say to anyone what they should or shouldn't do -- I mean unless they are asking my advice as to whether they should rob a bank -- I would tell them no, or at least, "well, if it was me I wouldn't, and do consider the consequences." I'm pretty certain the Holy Spirit is not going to convict someone to rob a bank.
But no one has ever asked me for that kind of advice, and it is most generally not my place to tell anybody what to do, what the Bible says they should or shouldn't do in a dictatorial kind of way, or what "I" think the Spirit might be leading them to do or not do. (I've heard of times when someone did speak something like that, suggesting that the Spirit *might* be leading them in a particular way, to another person, and it became helpful to the second person, but not very often.)
The Lord used Balaam's donkey and all sorts of things in the ancient age, and He uses computers and cell phones and doctors and counselors and all kinds of modern things in the modern age. He is not limited in any way. May all the glory be to the Lord! And may we His children exercise to follow His leading and to live to Him in all things. "Let all things be done for building up." (1 Cor. 14:26)
Don, have i told you how much I love you?
Grace, w/respect to your statement about nothing in the Bible about modern concepts in counseling - that should be broken down a bit more. Are you referring to psychoanalysis, personality theory, cognitive, behavioral, or what? Frankly, I see good scriptural implications for some of the above.
Of course, to be Christian counsel in nature means to accept forgiveness for one's sins, to forgive others of their sins (which may mean learning proper boundary setting), and to learn how to overcome fear and anxiety. Also to teach proper morality and so forth. To allow proper grieving and to empathize as far as possible. And to have as the end game to get our eyes on Jesus and not on glorifying self by constant inward focus or merely seeking to please one's self as the end goal.
It means living as a Christian is not a matter of "do not handle do not taste do not touch." This was BG's problem. He set rules for himself with females and because in his thinking he never violated them that he is ok, not understanding about sin proceeding from within. IOW, rules are not meant to see how much we can get away with in our evil heart. The evil heart is a matter of first priority and no rule setting will quell it. Only true repentance can.
I'm rambling but this is in part an answer to Stephanie's question, in addition to wondering what you meant, Grace.
Lynn, in addition to responding to Stephanie's invitation to describe what we want a counselor to know, Grace and I are also reacting to a description of proper counseling that would not hold to the importance of the principles you cite, except to the extent they are important to the client. Thus, your comments are responsive to Stephanie's invitation but not to hers and Rob's definitions of counseling.
I do want to assert that all this skepticism on my part is not meant to take away from the excellent purposes of the original post. I strongly believe victims need counseling to help them comprehend their hurt, their own lack of responsibility for being victims, and help them find direction to the path of hope and possibly forgiveness and healing. But I am more hard pressed to endorse counseling for perps and ornery cusses such as I am.
Thanks, Don. I was little fuzzy as to what people are meaning in this conversation, and think I'll go back to the read-only mode.
Thanks for all your comments Grace - for you and anyone else reading this, know that I don't mean to put any additional meaning to your words, I didn't think you meant that the exhortation to a teacher was equated to a counselor, if I understand right you were simply referring to the greater responsibility of those in authority.
It really just reminded me of a potential point of confusion that could come up, and I took it in that direction. As you noted it can happen whatever we as counselors intend, and I 100% believe that younger people especially coming out of culturally fundamentalist thinking would run the risk for making that assumption! They are looking for advice sometimes, so I wanted to make sure if someone came across this down the line, they had a chance to see another perspective. Thanks for giving me room to do that even though your topic was different!
Okay, Stephanie, I think we're clear :) Thanks for your courtesy.
Grace M. or Don R,
Would either of you allow it is possible to hold to a wrong interpretation and application of Scripture in the name of "being faithful to Scriptures' teaching" and that it is possible to be faithful to biblical terminology, while ignorant of the real message of the Scriptures?" (Seems to have happened for instance in John 5:39.)
Would you also allow that following the advice of a therapist (whether Christian or not) who gives sound advice based on sound understanding of human psychology and relationships, which is compatible with biblical principles (properly understood), but which does not use explicitly Scriptural terminology or Christian jargon is tantamount to obeying God and obeying Scripture?
I confess I'm suspicious, given my background in both Scripture and practical experience of psychotherapy with Christian therapists, of the instinct of some believers to draw the dichotomy you propose (rather than, for instance, the kind Jesus points out in Matthew 31-32). Sure, a therapist can make mistakes and lead one off the mark, but so can a naive or false interpretation of the Scriptures, whether taught by another or by one's own self-referencing understanding of the text. We are masters of deceiving ourselves, and sometimes the Scriptures and not another person (who may be trained to recognize mechanisms of denial as well as other unhealthy behavior), is the very tool we use to do it! It's very frustrating when professing Christians use the Bible as a shield against some of the very truths the Lord would have them recognize so as to be healed.
Hi Karen,
I appreciate very much what you're saying, and I was thinking of a rather long response, but actually I kind of stopped on one thing you said which is "the dichotomy you propose." I didn't think I was proposing any kind of dichotomy, and I didn't think Don was either. I was actually putting some effort into not coming across in that way.
Like I said, I didn't want to touch the conversation about whether counseling could be profitable. I think in many cases it absolutely can be and is. My point was "be careful." It's something I wish someone would have said to me decades ago when I had some experiences of being influenced and being damaged. I had some feeling in my own personal conscience before the Lord that I ended up ignoring, and regretted it later on. (Thank the Lord for his mercy and faithfulness to continue to take care of me and heal me and lead me forward in spite of all my mistakes!)
So I just wanted to reply to that one point.
Thank you, Grace, for your gracious reply.
I think I was wanting to push all of us to a level of deeper reflection in response Don's phraseology of "wanting to honor the authority of Scripture over anything that might come up in counseling." I respect the good faith intent of this sort of perspective, but I believe this to be potentially a false dichotomy for the reasons I mentioned. The Scripture, as naked text, has no "authority" of its own. God, alone, has such an authority. The text of the Scriptures (given for our edification and encouragement, and not as a substitute for God Himself!) has to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit, who is not limited to only using an inspired text in communicating His truth to human hearts (as that inspired text clearly teaches, e.g., Romans 2, esp. vss. 14-15). Apart from the Spirit's work and help, we would't have any hope of rightly understanding the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2). When necessary, God even uses donkeys and pagan prophets to get His message across (Numbers 22)! :-)
*It seems to me what is absolutely key to coming to discern what is right/healthy and God-pleasing in a given context is the humility and receptivity of our own hearts to God and His truth, a dogged persistence in seeking Him and Him alone, and the confidence He is truly gracious, kind and good, and a "rewarder (not a punisher!) of those that seek Him."*
That said, I totally agree with you that it is important to be discerning and careful in seeking help from any source -- especially those who work in the area of spiritual/emotional and relational healing. Hence my advice to "shop around" and "trust your gut". (I could add to that honing our skills in the discipline of critical thinking.) But I just wanted to point out this is equally true for finding churches and would-be teachers of the Scriptures as it is for psychological therapists and counselors (or other health professionals, for that matter). Every Christian church tradition I know of bases their teaching on the primacy of the authority of the Scriptures' message or text, yet such Christians can approach the Scriptures and come up with very divergent perspectives on a whole host of issues (even ones as central to Christian faith as the nature of the Atonement), and my experience is it often takes a long and frequently painful process of trial and error and growing discernment for the individual believer to discover the reality and true depth of Scriptures' meaning, found in its fullness only in the Person of Jesus Christ (John 5:38-45).
Thankfully, a church, Bible teacher, counselor, or friend *doesn't have to be perfect* to provide us substantial help on our journey to healing/wholeness and greater Christlikeness. They just need to be able to provide us with a piece of the puzzle we don't yet have. Remember the old story of the believer on a rooftop during a rising flood praying for God's rescue? He ignores the boat and the helicopter that come by because he is waiting for God, so he drowns! If the Scriptures tell us nothing else, they make it clear God is very skilled and creative about using highly imperfect and very humble and earthly things to further His work in the world and in our lives!
I should also add, Grace, that I see you and I are saying pretty much the same thing. :-)
Karen,
I don't actually think we're saying the same thing. I would disagree with some of the points you make. However I'm working today and don't want to continue with a long theological discussion. I'm interested if Don Rubottom has anything to say.
Where I see agreement, Grace, is where you say what it boils down to is don't ignore your conscience. That is the bottom line of what I want to say as well. The Holy Spirit is faithful to give us wisdom when we seek it. He speaks in a still, small Voice in the depths of our hearts. It is a mistake to cede His authority to an external one that does not agree with that Voice in our conscience--whether that is someone else purporting to properly represent what "the Scriptures say" or what a psychological professional advises.
Well, I agree with you that we should obey the speaking of the Holy Spirit in our conscience. What you said that startled me was that the Scriptures do not have authority unless they are interpreted. I've honestly never heard that kind of statement before and I have no idea if this is something that is debated by theologians, but a number of scriptures came leaping to my mind at that point, such as:
"God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1)
"I am Jehovah your God." (repeatedly in Exodus)
"I am that I am." (Ex. 3:14)
"God has made Him both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36)
I certainly perceive these as scriptures that have authority on their face with no need of interpretation. Then I remembered Matthew 7:29, "For He taught them as one having authority and not like their scribes." So the Lord's speaking has authority, and the scripture is the Lord's speaking (2 Tim 3:16).
Then I was doing a search for the word "scripture" in an online version of the Bible, and I saw Romans 4:3, which starts out "For what does the Scripture say?" So Paul in Romans appealed to the Scripture as an authority.
And I remembered when Jesus was being tempted by the devil and in each of the three temptations He answered the devil by quoting scripture, in Mark 4:4, 7, 10:
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God."
"Again, it is written, You shall not test the Lord your God."
"It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve."
So Jesus Himself took the scriptures as authoritative.
So we may have gotten off topic on this thread, but I wanted to reply to what you had said about the scriptures.
Karen, I truly love the way you think and write. You inspire me to be more thoughtful and careful in what I write. I understand your concern and I do not mean to be creating the dichotomy. But I am concerned about the dissonance between secular humanism and orthodox Christianity, even as defined by the Orthodox. As you put it, the test is still compatibility with Biblical Truth and I do NOT have to be the final arbiter of that. I am simply even mindful that the ways of God are far above the ways of man. That there is a way that seems right unto man but the ways thereof are the ways of death. And I am told "Come unto me all ye who are weary and heavily laden and I will give you rest." I am very open to counseling that ministers such true rest to my mind and soul, regardless of jargon. (And I am skeptical of jargon that amounts to whitewash.) So, I nearly an always willing to try it your way, Karen, so long as you do not intend the way of the world. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, are not from the Father, but from the world.
Lead me to the Father, gentle Shepherd. Lead me beside still waters, restore my soul. Let me enter into Your Rest. Let me abide in You.
Grace, I do agree with Karen that without the Holy Spirit we cannot receive even the clear simple revelation of God in His written Word. That is in part what we mean by "grace alone".
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
"So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
Don,
I'm glad to have you responding to this conversation. I so much agree with you that without the Holy Spirit we can't receive the revelation of God in His written Word. We must receive grace to receive revelation. "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Absolutely. I could write quite a bit more agreeing with you on this matter and for that matter I could write a lot, responding to any number of points that have been made in this thread.
My point in what I wrote just above was very narrowly directed at what Karen said about whether the text of the Bible has "authority" without being interpreted, and it was just my off-the-top-of-my-head response to that, in addition, since it's something that never crossed my mind before today. I might as well throw in also that it is absolutely necessary to interpret and apply the Bible. I was just responding to the one point about authority. I hope I'm clear!
I guess I should say one more thing to make myself clear. I was just reading something the other day that reminded me that what I've learned is that the general principle of interpreting the Bible is to "Interpret the Bible by the Bible." Any interpretation of any one verse must be backed up by the entire Bible. This protects us from interpreting the Bible any way we like, according to our personal ideas, rather than taking the Bible itself as the authority. Of course it is impossible to do this with the direct guidance and revelation of the Holy Spirit.
It is impossible to do this "without" the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, not with. Yikes. Sorry for not proofreading.
Thank you, Grace and Don, for the clarifications, expansions and kind replies in response to my comments and questions.
I quite understand what can be startling in a Protestant's ear about what I wrote about the nature of Scriptures' authority. One thing I have learned is the NT (i.e., Christ and the Apostolic writers) in its treatment of the OT and the early Church Fathers did not approach the text of the Scriptures (particularly those of the OT) like Reformation- and Fundamentalist movement-influenced Evangelicals/modern Christians, and, as we have seen, even well-intentioned believers, accepting modern philosophical premises about the nature of how spiritual truth is discerned rooted in the philosophical movements of Scholasticism, Nominalism, Empiricism and Enlightenment Rationalism can approach the Scriptures much more like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, than as the Christological and Apostolic spiritual hermeneutic inherited and developed in the early Church would indicate we should.
It is an early Church patristic teaching the literal surface meaning of the text of the Scriptures had no inspired meaning in and of itself--that is, even though its writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record what they did, apart from knowing the Holy Spirit's intent (which they did not always assume was identical with the human authors' intent and often seem to have assumed it wasn't!), it is a dead letter to us apart from Christ's/the Spirit's interpretation and application to our lives. 1 Corinthians 2 is something of a touchstone for this principle for me.
I have reflected and learned a lot of this by studying the early classical Christian hermeneutic through the lens of the contemporary Eastern Orthodox Church and some of her modern interpreters, which of all the various Christian traditions today, seems to me to have leaned most heavily even into the present era on this early hermeneutical legacy in their approach to faith, the Scriptures, and the Christian life as expressed in their formal creed and spiritual practices. On the other hand, I find many Christians of all traditions with more than a surface level understanding of our Christian doctrinal and ecclesial history observing and describing many of these same things.
Some additional verses to add to those Grace listed:
Luke 24:25-27, 44-46 25 Christ is speaking to the disciples on the Road to Emmaus
Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. . . .
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, . . .
Btw, can anybody tell us where it is written in the OT the Christ would "rise on the third day?"
Acts 8:26-35 (esp. note vs. 31):
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”[b]
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
Judging from the response of the Eunuch to Phillip's question in vs. 31, what would you gather was the general attitude of a pious Jew in Jesus' day to the nature of the authority of the Scriptures? Were they believers in a "plain sense" reading of the OT text?
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
According to vs. 16, what qualities predispose someone to twist and distort the Scriptures' true inspired meaning?
That the Scripture must be interpreted by the Scripture is only a partial answer. We have some of the interpretations of Christ and the Apostles given us right in the text of the NT, to be sure. Also, in addition to the presupposition the Scriptures had to be interpreted, the Jews of Jesus' day understood there to be a hierarchy within their books of the Scriptures themselves whereby some were more important than others (Matthew 23:23) and where some needed to be interpreted in the context of others and not the other way around. Accordingly, the Torah (the "Law of Moses") was at the foundation of this Jewish hierarchy within the Scriptures and then the Prophets, then the Psalms, with the wisdom and historical books last (note the allusions to this in Luke 24:27 & 44). This guiding hermeneutic of which books needed to be interpreted in light of which others was part of the extra-biblical interpretive tradition within Jewish faith that needed to be taught by its Rabbis. In the early Church, this hierarchy of the books of Scripture was preserved, but the Gospels took pre-eminent place followed by the epistles and then the OT (its hierarchy preserved) followed. Similarly, a Holy-Spirit inspired classical Christian interpretive tradition for understanding the gospel and the Scriptures has been passed down within the Church via instruments like the Nicene Creed and those teachings of the Church Fathers that have been universally accepted.
Great stuff, Karen. I do not disagree with anything you say, and yet, the thinking of the fathers was culturally removed from my own and that is not all a matter of correct theology. It is also culture under God's sovereign rule. In that light, I wonder about the strong foundation of North African fathers, whose descendants fell away from a Trinitarian view, leaving them vulnerable to Islam. Was there any cultural vulnerability there or mere apostasy as we see in the west today? Phillip Johnson attributes the resistance to the Trinity in part to cultural factor, but he may be prejudiced as a British Catholic. I also wonder about German culture that gave rise to Luther, Bonheoffer and von Hildebrand (not to mention Ratzinger). These approached God's word from a rich, but culturally divergent perspective as compared with such middle eastern and African fathers. Did God not reveal His truth to these?
Certainly "plain meaning" is not a complete hermeneutic. Jonah being in the belly of the whale 3 days, seems to have communicated something to Jesus about his pending entombment, probably the clearest, albeit hidden, writing about the three days.
I see in Hosea 2:16 "You shall call me Ishi, you shall no longer call me Baal" as a direct reference to Genesis 2 (Isha and Ish), bone of bone, flesh of flesh communion. And speaking of resurrection, this "marriage" of God to His people is described in Isa. 54:4-8 as the restoration of a widow to her husband! Scripture interprets Scripture, all through the anointing of the Spirit.
But of course, this discussion began with Grace and I displaying our skepticism or caution about counseling void of or contrary to Scripture. Hermeneutics is irrelevant if the truth is sought elsewhere than in the Word.
Don, you get the prize for noticing the only OT reference to Christ's "three days" in the tomb is the symbolic and typological one of Jonah in the whale's belly. :-)
I think it was also you who pointed out God speaks through creation/nature, especially our human nature created in his image for communion with Him, through conscience and the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit, and this is how counseling also can be a vehicle for His grace.
In no way would I want anything I have suggested here to undermine an affirmation of the unique role of the Scriptures as the inspired written record of God's work of bringing redemption to the world through His people in Jesus Christ. In terms of a written rule of faith within the Church, it is pre-eminent.
And, I'm certainly not suggesting we prefer advice that contradicts what the Church has always clearly always understood the Scriptures to be teaching (such as the true nature of Christian marriage as being one man with one woman and the proper place of physical sexual expression being only within marriage).
I just listen to Jesus: Matt. 12:39-40. I think we all have much in common in what we consider good advice. I am having difficulty recognizing the value of counseling that ONLY purposes to help the client understand what the client believes, as if that is the best source of advice, the way that seems right to the client.
Don, I hear what you are saying about counseling that only seeks to help the counselee clarify his/her own beliefs. On the other hand, directive counseling that does not find a connecting conviction within the person being counseled will not likely be effective either, since the person being counseled will not own the advice and won't follow through apart from some sort of threat being held over their head, which is not a therapist's role (that's the parole officer's or the judge's role). There are also beliefs a client may have and which are driving his emotions and behavior, but which aren't recognized because these are held subconsciously (often stemming from childhood experiences). When these are made conscious and examined with the help of a therapist, they may be recognized as false and disabling and discarded and replaced with beliefs based on truth and more grown-up experiences. This is another useful part of clarifying clients' beliefs.
Thanks. I think of the questions Jesus asked or provoked when people approached him: woman at the well, Nicodemus, rich young ruler, woman taken in adultery. He clearly explored their beliefs in order to introduce their thinking to the truth. He also worked with others' limitations on Scripture: arguing from the Pentateuch when debating or answering Sadducees, for instance, because they discounted the authority of the other Scriptures. I certainly believe counseling is a significant form of interpersonal service, very necessary in light of our design for interpersonal communion and our pitiful alienations. But I also believe Jesus came as Wonderful Counselor and the Holy Spirit was given as a Counselor. "If you continue in my Word, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."
I think of a good therapist as working in concert with the Holy Spirit's conviction which will also be in harmony with what we find in the Scriptures. I think it was St. Augustine who observed, "All truth is God's truth." This, of course, doesn't rule out the possibility of a bad therapist or a believer or pastor who interprets and/or applies the Scripture according to natural human reason rather than through the Spirit's insight. But here I'm likely just starting to repeat myself! :-p
I have a question directed to the moderators before I continue with this discussion. Are we off topic at all? The reason I'm asking is because I'm thinking of another forum that I look at sometimes that has taken the step of completely separating their support forum from their debate forum, so that people who want to debate have a place to do it without detracting from the purposes of the support forum, which I am afraid we are doing at the moment. I know that people who "do" need counseling really need it a lot, and I'd hate to think that anything I'm posting might discourage anyone from getting something they really need. Moderators, are we off topic by debating in what was intended to be a support thread? Is there a better place to have this discussion?
I support Grace's comment. Coming back to the original question, I think it is really important that the therapist knows how little confidence ex-fundamentalist women have in their own sense of self.
For example, when I was going to my therapist, she kept me waiting for 45 minutes. She works out of an old house so there is no receptionist and no way of confirming if I got the date or time right for my appointment. Clients sit on the porch until she comes out to let them in. When she didn't come out within 15 minutes, I started to panic. Should I stay and wait or should I knock on the door? I really, truly didn't know what the "right" action was and I was panic stricken.
When she finally came out, I was in tears and I explained that not knowing the 'expected behavior' had panicked me. She was surprised at my 'over reaction' and then changed the subject.
My 'over-reaction' was the result of having to make a decision about what to do (knock or leave or stay) when I didn't have a clue about what to do in this situation. I didn't want to intrude on the client before me (especially if I had the appointment time wrong)and I didn't want the therapist to get angry at me if I left (I had written a note, but I didn't know where to leave it). In the end I just sat in a frozen panic until the therapist came out.
I have no idea if this is "just" from a fundamentalist background or if this is part of some general social anxiety. In retrospect, I think I should have been angry at being put in that position (I had the right time, and she could have popped out to say she was running late), but whatever I felt didn't feel like anger. I felt trapped.
It would have been nice if the therapist had explored my feelings and not dismissed them as an over-reaction to a minor incident. For people who have never been allowed to express feelings, every feeling is overwhelming, and it is very difficult to even give a name to the feeling. I know now that I was feeling anxious and angry, but at the time I felt like Patty Hearst in the closet. I don't even know what feeling that is.
I suspect for men from fundamentalist backgrounds the issue might be different because their autonomy is celebrated rather than undermined. The gender of the therapist might be more important for them. For me, confirmation of my experiences is important (but not to the extent that I get dependent, which I can see myself doing). I agree with Don R regarding enabling dependency. As someone who was never adequately parented, I can see myself becoming dependent on a supportive parent-proxy very easily. That is also where the skill of the therapist becomes important and something I think that needs special vigilance.
Cat, your therapist's conduct was unprofessional and inconsiderate. I'm not impressed with her handling of your panic either. If that was a general pattern with her, I'd be looking for a new therapist. I hope she was just having a bad day!
Thank you so much for your insights. This is the sort of information I need to know if my feelings are "justified". I was scared you guys would yell at me and tell me I was over-reacting or spoiled or demanding. Also it helped me to not take 100% responsibility for the situation, as I had done. I was blaming myself for not knowing what to do. It hadn't occurred to me that it was her job to give me instructions or standing orders about what to do if she was running so late (and the appointment was for 9 am so I wasn't expected such lateness. If it had been 3 pm I wouldn't have been so thrown by the wait because I reckon therapists go 5 minutes long for every appointment throughout the day so a 45 minute wait is "expectable").
My default assumption is problems are 100% my fault and 100% my responsibility (another reason why CBT and I are not a good fit re the assumption that emotional distress is due to self-inflicted cognitive distortions).
This type of not knowing what to do in unexpected situations is a legitimate and genuine problem, and I am not "attention-seeking" or demanding, although I guess it can seem that way to other people who see the panicked over-reaction, but not the reason for it.
I wish there was a diagnostic box to tick for "having no sense of self or rights". That way therapists might have a ready made list of interventions that take this into account. The CBT format with its ready made list of cognitive distortions, and ready made "rational thoughts" is very dismissive if it used as bunch of throwaway one-liners.
BTW, I have not gone back to the therapist. From her point of view, I was "catastrophizing". This is actually technically correct. I was. The problem is that knowing this doesn't help, either in dealing with the feelings of being ??abandoned??? ??annihilated??? OR with practical ideas of how to handle similar situations in the future.
Can someone please tell me, what you would have done in a similar situation? Knock on the door, or leave? This is important for me to know because I still don't know what I should have done.
Cat, I agree with Karen. No one should put up with that kind of treatment from a "professional." It would be one thing if the counselor would come out and acknowledge and explain why there was a delay and ask for your understanding....If you were an attorney, you may be able to charge that individual billable time for your time loss---that may solve the time delay problem quickly. I never could stomach that establishment attitude and rudeness. Otherwise I would walk away. This is two cents worth from an otherwise happy old hippie (who can get grouchy under circumstances as described ---LOL)!
Hi Cat,
I feel qualified to answer your question.
Your story about being in tears on the porch made me want to cry and to laugh, but please know, not to laugh "at you." I would be both crying and laughing because I had such a similar experience and I can't believe it happened to someone else. Actually I suppose I've had countless experiences of this kind.
So here's my reply regarding what you "should have done." And I will preface it by saying that this is not in any way said in a glib or flippant way. It's the result of years and decades of painful learning and experience. So here it is: You should have done whatever seemed best to you at the time, and not been all that much concerned about the consequences or what anyone else would think. Of the options you gave, knocking, waiting, or leaving, with or without leaving a note, any one of them sounds perfectly fine to me. The only one that might have actually caused any possibility of a problem to anyone else is knocking, because you might have disturbed someone else, so I can understand why you would hesitate to do that. But even at that it probably would have been fine in the end. The other person would most likely understand because they wouldn't have wanted to be left on the porch for 45 minutes without knowing what was going on, either. If they truly were in a serious crisis and couldn't be interrupted for any reason, the therapist would have probably just made the decision to not answer the door right away, and then she would have come to you later and explained. You could have had that in mind, that she had that option, so you would have only knocked (lightly) once, and then if there were no answer, you would have thought about what you wanted to do next.
And you could have done the same thing as the therapist had the option to do, that is, you could have done what seemed best to you at the time, and explained later. There simply wasn't a "right" thing to do. What if it had been very hot or very cold outside and you were extremely uncomfortable? It would have been perfectly fine to just go back home. You don't have to leave a note. You can if you want to, but you don't have to. You can call later and tell her you were freezing or whatever, and "can we reschedule?" This is normal, and it's what people do every day.
I know to people who were raised like you and I were it doesn't seem normal at all because we were trained to an extreme beyond an extreme that it is critically and crucially important to always do exactly the right thing at the right time and if you don't the consequences are utterly terrifying. But you know what? Most people, almost all people, in the world have not been raised like that. They've been raised to learn how to evaluate their options in a given situation and choose what seems best without being all *that* concerned about the consequences. They've been raised to learn that it does not happen all that often that something is a serious emergency and whatever decision you make is crucial and critical and the consequences are long-lasting. It does happen, but it's not an everyday thing. Most things are just not worthy of that kind of suffering over the decision of "what should I do."
And to go on with my scenario, if you do decide to leave a note, just leave it anywhere. There isn't any one place to leave it. Just leave it where you think the therapist will probably see it. Even if she doesn't see it, when you call her later on to explain, you can tell her where you put it, and then she'll probably go look for it and say something like "Oh, I see it. Sorry I missed it before." Again this is normal and it happens every day; this is how people get along with each other. They don't normally expect everyone to do everything exactly perfect. People usually make allowances for others, and a big part of the reason is that they hope that those others will return the favor and make allowances for them when they don't do things "exactly perfect all the time," which no one ever does, anyway. If someone tells you they do, you shouldn't believe it!
Your story made me remember one day, many years ago, when I was standing in line at Taco Bell and I was inwardly suffering very much because I had the concept that whatever I wanted to order was probably a little bit unusual, not like what others would order, and I was just sure that the cashier was going to laugh at me for ordering the "wrong thing," and I was suffering all the misery of being laughed at before it even happened. I wasn't even sure I dared to ask for what I wanted. It seemed like the Lord was observing and decided to take care of me and show me that I just didn't have to suffer like that, because the person in front of me ordered exactly, item for item, what I had intended to order. And the cashier didn't laugh! I was overwhelmed with relief and gratitude and went ahead and ordered what I wanted. As funny as it sounds, that was a major turning point for me. The Lord showed me that I'm not all that crazy of a person, I'm mostly just like other people, and I don't have to do everything exactly as others expect (or I *think* others expect) all the time.
This is not to say that all decisions are this small. Some decisions really are important enough to suffer over, and pray over, ahead of time. Sometimes it's necessary to take care of others' feelings. But you will be crippled for your whole life if you take everything you do that seriously.
One thing you need to be very clear about also is that when you are in the middle of feeling frozen and not able to decide, the Lord is very concerned about you at that moment, and I do *not* mean He is hovering over you waiting for you to make a "wrong" decision so He can pounce on you and catch you in the act and punish you. You might be used to assuming that's the case but that is not what is going on. Much to the contrary, the Lord is very concerned at that moment about delivering you from the overwhelming fear you are feeling and ushering you into a peaceful feeling about making decisions and feeling confident in them. I can promise you this because it's what the Lord has opened up to me over and over again in my daily experiences. When you're stuck like that, it's a great time to open up to the Lord and say, Lord Jesus, help me! I'm not sure what to do! Because He is waiting there in deep concern, waiting for you to open to Him and call on Him, so He can have a way to help you and care for you.
I hope this helps you!
Cat, the therapists I have seen are actually quite good about remaining on schedule. I never had more than a 5 or 10-minute wait. I saw therapists trained in several therapy techniques. CBT has its usefulness, but as you know well, we are much more than our thoughts. I studied psychology at an Evangelical college, and our psychotherapy prof gave the psychiatrist the son goes to in the movie, "Ordinary People", as an example of a very skilled therapist. There are some very moving scenes with him. I believe he uses what is known as "gestalt therapy". I also learned that in comparisons of three kinds of therapy, the best predictor of whether someone felt helped by the therapy was not the type of technique used, but rather the capacity of the therapist to express caring and empathy.
Grace has given you some wonderful feedback I hope will be helpful. Since you are in a rural setting, your options may be more limited and, as you say, things may need to be more casual and flexible. I hope you can find a therapist who treats you with respect and kindness. You seem to be quite intelligent and already have a lot of self awareness. That's a good start.
Hi Cat and Grace M -
Thank you Cat, for bringing up this situation, and Grace M, !!!!THANK YOU!!!! for your lengthy Sept. 1st response to it!!! (I can't add a comment under yours, Grace, otherwise I would.)
Grace M, you have described my life!!!!!! I am "becoming free" of that extremely paralyzing fear of making a mistake and receiving drastic consequences for it. THANK YOU for your comments about how most people are raised - very enlightening. Through this website and others I've been truly coming to an understanding of how most of the rest of the world operates and what is extreme, and to put it mildly, that is beyond helpful. Bless you both - and blessings and thanks also to the rest of the RG community of moderators and contributors.
Hi Becoming Free,
I'm glad you felt like what I wrote could be helpful to you! I was trying to write down all the things that have been helpful to me over the years as I've struggled with just what you're describing. You're right that it was "lengthy." Maybe a little bit too much :( I had really strong feelings about it because I've had so many experiences like that!
For me it was such a revelation that God was not trying to zap me for making wrong decisions, but was really for me, standing with me, and wanted me to learn to make decisions without getting worried about them. I remember hearing some things in messages that were so enormously helpful to me, such as, "God is sovereign even over our mistakes. You couldn't have made that mistake if God hadn't allowed it." I remember when I heard that I just couldn't believe it. I always thought God rejected me every single time I ever made a mistake, and of course since I make mistakes all the time, I pretty much thought that God always rejected me. When I realized that God is so great, and He died for all our mistakes, and He just intends to gently and lovingly shepherd us through them so we can gain the experience and learn, and He has no intention of punishing us "just because we made a mistake," I began to be more and more released from my fear of making decisions.
When I make a wrong one, as happens regularly, it is such a relief to *always* be able to go back to the Lord and know that I am covered by His blood shed on the cross and He still welcomes me to come and fellowship with Him.
I suppose that's the same experience you've had, and probably we all need to have it more and more!
Hi Grace M -
I plan to write more later, but I just wanted to drop in with a quickie to let you know that **every word in your post to Cat was very valuable.** It would have been better for me to have used the words "in-depth" or "detailed" instead of "lengthy" - they would have been more specific and appropriate. I'm really sorry to have caused you some sadness about it.
You truly have shared the heart of Jesus with your responses to both Cat and myself. I have learned so much about His character through those posts.
May Jesus bless you abundantly for sharing.
Thanks, Becoming Free, that's kind of you, even though I don't think you needed to apologize. I wasn't really sad, but then I did put a sad face in my comment, so I can see how I came across that way. I tend to use those frowny faces in a bit of a light way. Actually I was very encouraged by your comment, not discouraged at all. I'll be looking forward to what you want to write later.
Thanks! :-)
I agree with this. It should have been clear to Cat when she should have arrived and what was expected of her. But seeing someone in the home like this can lend to this kind oif unprofessional behavior. Maybe that is why this person was working out of the home.
Thank you for your very helpful feedback, which gives me information to understand the situation better.
I live in a country town. Things a lot more relaxed than in a big city and there aren't a lot of business premises. Also, there aren't a lot of options around. There are only two therapists in my town.
Don't worry about it. Professional standards apply to everyone, no matter where they work, (big city, country, in-between). It sounded like timing and expectations were not made clear to you. I am also assuming that this was a private pay situation and you were not using insurance. If this person is just doing private pay, standards of professional behavior are much harder to enforce. Likewise this person should have some kind of either State license or professional organization that will back up their credentials and both do require standards of behavior. I mention this because there is a lot of angst on this blog about going to seek out counseling and therapy. You as a client do have a right to ask anyone they are seeking help from for the person's credentials, license, etc. These types of things are there for your protection. You as a client do have a right to know what qualifications someone has, what training, what experience. I am sure you wouldn't go to a Doctor, no matter how nice he or she may be or seem that isn't licensed properly. The same applies to therapy as well. You have a right to know if someone's license from the State or from a professional organization is in good standing. Something about this situation in the way you described it has some red flags for me.
Hi Rob,
I agree with you that Cat's therapist showed a lack of professionalism. She's the one who should have anticipated that anyone who's left to wait for that long without being told what's going on is always going to feel bothered about it, and it shouldn't have surprised her at all if Cat had any kind of reaction. That's her job, to anticipate that kind of thing and to deal with it in a calm and professional way. Especially a person left waiting by a counselor is necessarily going to deal with a particular set of emotions. If she didn't realize that, she really wasn't doing her job.
I'd like to reply to Don R's last comment.
Don, you mentioned something I've also thought a lot about. God is really the best counselor, and the counselors who use questions, which is a great methodology, have come across something that was initiated by God, that is, He often deals with us by asking questions. That starts right at the beginning of the Bible when Adam fell and Jehovah came into the garden in the cool of the evening. We could think of all kinds of pointed, chastising, rebuking things to say to Adam at that point, right? But what did God say? He asked a question, and such a question: "Where are you?" He didn't say "You have separated yourself from Me by your terrible sin." He is God; He didn't need to say things like that. He just asks a simple question, and Adam is fully exposed. (Of course He also went on to "preach the gospel" to them by telling them the way of redemption from their sin, so He didn't leave Adam in his hopeless condition, or us, thank the Lord. He gave him and us a way to return to Him.
And to add to the questions you mentioned that Jesus asked, there is the one He asked Peter after Peter denied Him, and Peter needed to be restored to the ministry: "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Just imagine what kinds of emotions were working in Peter when He heard that question. The Lord had the full right to shake His finger at Peter and rebuke him for denying Him. But He wouldn't do it. He asked a question that was calculated to restore Peter to a sweet, loving relationship with Him and a lifelong consecration and service to Him.
I know in my case, even when I was young, even a teenager, the Lord sometimes would suddenly intrude on my thoughts with a very simple question. The Lord knows every person's case. In my case I needed to be asked: "What do you want?" I read in one of the previous entries on this thread that someone's therapist asked them that. I actually heard that question from the Spirit in my spirit when I was still so young. I didn't know the answer to it, and it caused me to start on a spiritual journey to contact the Lord to find out!
Of course what I gained is that I learned to contact the Lord, but the Lord asked the right question to point me in that direction.
I've sometimes said to myself that "God is a gentleman." So often He doesn't come in to accuse and condemn us; He just touches us in the right way, the best way to nudge us to turn our heart toward Him. Don't you just love Him!
I love your observations here, Grace. It made me think of Christ's question to the man paralyzed for 38 years by the Pool of Siloam (?). Jesus asks him, "Do you want to get well?" The nature of our transformation in Christ is such that it cannot be effected apart from our free will assent. It is God's will that we participate in His nature--that we love freely as He does. This cannot come about through manipulation, threat, or coercion. It is difficult for us to comprehend how truly patient and gentle are God's ways with us--"A bruised reed he will not break."
Thank you, friends.
Thank you, Grace and Rob. Thank you for understanding. I thought I was the only person who thought there was a "right" way to do things (all things). People tell me I am "intense" and I guess this is what they mean.
I think you guys have given me more than enough "therapy" to work through heaps of stuff (and I saw this counsellor for more than 10 sessions, and never got anything "useful" that would help me navigate life). My plan for the next few months is to observe what people do in everyday life and how much angst goes into their decisions (yes, I agonise over what to order in restaurants too! Mostly I order whatever the person I am with orders. I always assumed it was because I didn't know what I wanted. However, now I am beginning to think that is more to do with being "normal".
I have so much to think and pray about. I have some new skills to practise (not taking every decision as a life or death decision). Even as I write this I see why a "pat" CBT answer would seem like a right response (life or death decision thinking is an example of all-or-nothing thinking... so I see it is a distortion). What you guys have understood is that the issue is fundamentally deeper than "just" a cognitive distortion. It has to do with the fundamentalist patriarchal way girls are raised. I still haven't thought this through enough to see the links, but in my case, denial of feelings/perceptions is a huge part. I'm so used to denying my feelings/wants/needs that I don't factor these into any decisions I make.
I'm assuming that most counsellors don't see this type of problem very often???
Again, I am so, so grateful for your understanding and insight. You are a true gift to me.
Rob War, you were right! The therapist I saw was not qualified. How did you know? What flags were there?
I looked up the psychologist's registration details on the registration webpage. She is registered as a psychologist, but her only qualifications are a bachelor of science. She has no mental health or counselling qualifications listed under "qualifications".
She was registered in 1979, so there must have been some sort of grandfather clause that let anyone with a bachelors of science degree register as a psychologist in my state (???). I assume she did at least SOME psychology subjects in her degree, but there would be no clinical practice with real clients or any clinical supervision/feedback at all. I don't think CBT was invented in 1979, so that might explain why I felt CBT was so dismissive and abusive. It is highly likely she didn't really know what she was doing.
I am shocked that such a person would misrepresent her skills to vulnerable clients such as me, and I also feel betrayed by yet another "authority". Should I have trusted my gut feeling about her (she SEEMED incompetent, but I just dismissed that as me being judgemental. Also, she is actually registered as a psychologist).
On the other hand, I am so, so grateful to you and RG for clarifying the issues for me. Without you, I would have gone on considering that I was having cognitive distortions (when in fact, my gut feeling was right all along... she was not the 'right' therapist for me. In fact she is not the 'right' therapist for anyone. She was not a trained therapist at all).
Rob, I am amazed that you were able to put your finger on this. It never occurred to me that she would not be qualified. However, this does explain a few things that she did in our 10 or sessions that seemed strange to me. I trusted her and I believed she was acting to the best of her ability to help me. Now I feel foolish, betrayed and very, very angry.
So Rob, how do I use this lesson going forward? Should I inform the registering body? Because I live in such a small town, she will know it was me and I suspect she would be very vengeful. She knows my vulnerabilities (because this is why I sought counselling in the first place). She can cause a lot of problems for me in our community.
Also, she is actually a "registered" psychologist, even though she does not have the qualifications or the skills that a registered psychologist would have. I guess this makes what she does legal, so she has technically done nothing wrong (although I think incompetence is wrong.... surely she could have taken further training since 1979).
This is more or less common problem in country towns. We had an incompetent GP a few years ago who was also registered but had some sort of "conditional" qualification from 35 years ago. I think it is so hard to get any health professionals to work in some areas that people come to work here who could not get jobs elsewhere. The attitude of the registering bodies seems to be that a sub-standard GP or psychologist is better than no GP at all.
Also, without someone like you guys to provide insight, we have no way of knowing whether someone is competent or not (until after they kill someone as the GP did... the patient had double pneumonia which the GP did not diagnose). Even then, the GP is still working.
Rob, what flags made you think that the therapist I went to was not qualified? What did I miss? How can I know to trust my gut and when to ignore it when it comes to a good therapist? I think this question is much broader than just me, since it is such a hard decision to decide to seek counselling in the first place (because this goes against the fundamentalist teaching I was brought up with).
Please, if anyone else needs counselling, don't let my one bad experience put you off. I was just terribly, terribly unlucky (and then very "lucky" to have mentioned this on the RG website which brought such clarification and understanding).
You all have helped me more than I can say. Thank you.
Cat, I believe Rob is aware of these things because her husband is a marriage and family counselor. That might be mentioned in one of her other comments in this thread.
You seem to have good instincts, Cat, and a good head on your shoulders. With God's help, I'm sure you'll land on your feet. Even if you have to travel a bit, it would be worthwhile to find a truly qualified counselor.
Cat,
sorry about the delayed response. If one were to look at Psychiatrist/Psychologist/social workers/counselors in a tier, one can see a progression of education. Psychiatrists are medical doctors with a specialty in mental illness and they are the only ones in this grouping that can prescribe medicine. The next tier would be master level Psychologists and then master level social workers. A BS degree in either psychology or social work really isn't very much and they don't really do very much that is why most of those with just a bachelor type degrees do go one and obtain the masters degree which is what most State licensing boards require. If this person just had an old bachelors degree and didn't go on for the Masters might explain some of the things you experienced. This person isn't disqualified but maybe not as educated as others in doing therapy. In spite of all of this and just seeing this person for 10 weeks didn't seem like such a waste for you because it seems from what you are stating that you have gained some insight into yourself and what you may need to work on in moving forward.
I wanted to point out a couple of things brought up in other comments about why don't we just go to our pastors or priests for counseling. I think there a couple of things to consider here. In keeping my above tier in mind, below master level psychologists and social workers are the counseling type certificates that people do go for in order to be a "counselor". That is actually in-between master level and bachelor basic degrees. There is nothing wrong with just having a counseling certificate but States and insurances want the master level or above. In looking at the training most pastors and priests receive in seminaries, counseling and therapy and while counseling is obviously a part of being a pastor, training in this takes more of a back seat to all of the other things that seminaries cover in training pastors and priests. I've known Catholic priests that have gone on after seminaries and obtained masters in order to be better in counseling and dealing with others. Another thing to consider is that if one went to their pastor for counseling, it is usually a one or two times for immediate type concerns and that is not really therapy that many need. A pastor's time is likewise very limited in with all the other things that are demanded of a pastor to do. There is a difference in that a pastor is great for someone to talk to in a crisis like a death, they are more trained to deal with crisis situations. But this is different that going to a pastor long term to deal with your deep-seated anxiety or depression, how to overcome abuse etc. Many problems people have are not simple quick type fix Dear Abby type answers that can be solved in one or two visits.
My final comment is addressing the idea that why do we need counseling or therapy if we have Jesus? While yes, Jesus is the ultimate counselor and therapist, He is also the ultimate physician too. Think about it, much of Jesus public ministry recorded in the Bible concerns physical healing. He obviously spend a lot of time healing people. Some extreme groups do go down that road in claiming that if someone is sick, if you have enough "faith", Jesus will heal you. So if you end up at the Dr.'s office, you didn't have enough faith. Yes, Jesus is the ultimate in healing body, mind and spirit and He also uses others around us to accomplish this. Yes, if someone is sick, you need to pray and you need to see the Dr. So yes if someone is trying to become whole from abuse, become free of depression and anxiety, they need to pray and seek help from qualified trained people to become the whole and free person that God wants and mean them to be. This isn't a lack of faith but greater faith in that you are trusting God to use others to help you.
Thank you for this, rob war.
Cat, I will make a guess that your "gut" was telling you something was off with this counselor because she was creating distressing feelings in you without correctly understanding or resolving them. (I suspect that is also some of what rob picked up on that led to the question about qualification.)
A good therapist may need to cause you temporary increased distress in order to work through something difficult, but they should be observant enough to notice your reaction and gently help you through it. Being rude and dismissive of genuine distress is not a part of good therapy. Her insensitivity and lack of empathy were warning flags.
It sounds like your gut instincts are pretty good. :-) Listen to them, and if you're worried that you are overreacting to something, don't be afraid to check your perceptions with other people you trust. You shouldn't have to suffer in silence.
bingo to your comment!
from me too, to all of you. THANK YOU!