First, I wanted to acknowledge that any article that critiques an experience, by nature, opens the door for those who feel differently to claim that the author is bitter and/or just needs to move past the experience he or she writes about. My intention in writing this article is not to vilify ATI or Bill Gothard. Instead, I want to write about my experience as an apprenticeship student and how I feel this is a scenario where ATI over-promised and under-delivered. And I, like a dissatisfied customer, write to say, “Buyer beware.”
My folks enrolled in ATI just as I was entering my junior year in high school. So unlike the younger students where one has the luxury of worrying about an issue later down the road, my future vocation was of concern to me. The importance of vocation has not been completely lost on IBLP either. In their materials on courtship, they teach that the man must have “considered how he will provide for the basic needs of [his] family, such as food, clothing, shelter, and transportation.”
At our first Knoxville conference, there were many speakers and many testimonies. Stories were told of promising young people who’d lost their faith while attending college. Stories were told about the ungodly amount of debt that one incurs in going to college. I don’t remember all the details but I do remember leaving with this conclusion as to ATI’s position on vocational training: College (even Christian college) = Evil; Apprenticeship = Godly. Naturally I had a lot of questions, but my parents and ATI dismissed them with the encouragement that “God would open doors,” because as the Scripture says, “Eye hath not seen, nor hath ear heard, the things God has in store for those who love Him.” I was told that I should just be patient to trust God to work everything out. So I did. . . for a time. There were additional Knoxvilles where we were told about exciting new “developments.” We were told that employers had told Bill Gothard that they didn’t care about college degrees. They just wanted young people with character. At one point, Bill Gothard told us that he had employers calling him, begging him to send them one of us apprentice students to come work for them, but that he didn’t feel any were ready.
When we heard testimonies of successful apprenticeships, they almost always involved services–which, try as hard as I might, I never seemed suited for. I can’t cook. I take lousy pictures. I worked on the construction crew while I was at the IBLP headquarters and, during that time, I cut my finger on a router blade, splashed drain cleaner in my eyes, sustained a cut above my left eye, and split my forehead open. Clearly I don’t have the spiritual gift of construction. I continued to plug away, hoping my character might outshine that of my peers so I might be picked for one of these “exciting” opportunities Bill Gothard mentioned in Knoxville. I was never picked.
A few years later, ATI launched the Oak Brook College of Law & Government Policy which would train people to be lawyers. And though I’d never had any great interest in law or politics, my parents felt like this was God’s direction for my life, and I think I warmed to the idea because at the time OBCL seemed to be the only game in town for those who weren’t gifted in construction, catering, sewing, upholstery, or photography. I earned poor grades in law school because I seldom comprehended what I was reading. Later I would discover that distance learning is a terrible match for my learning style. I need the ability to ask clarifying questions at the time when I am confused, and I also need to learn from interaction with peers.
By the grace of God, I managed to pass all my first year courses along with the infamous Baby Bar exam. I continued plugging along with my legal studies, struggling all the way. Along the way, after discussing the idea with my parents it was determined that taking a few paralegal courses at the local community college in conjunction with my OBCL courses might be helpful. I did really well and after taking about four classes, figured out how I could simultaneously earn my associate’s degree while completing my OBCL studies.
I earned my associate’s degree in 1998 and my family moved to Ohio. In 1999 I completed all of my OBCL coursework and earned my Juris Doctorate degree. The only problem though, was that I would never be able to practice law in Ohio, as its bar admission rules were written too narrowly to accept my OBCL coursework. My parents encouraged me to “just trust God to work everything out” and to wait and see how God was going to open the doors for me to practice law in Ohio.
Since I had just married, and my wife and I weren’t really in a position to pick up and move back to California, I obtained underemployment as a paralegal, first in a law firm and then for a company that sold legal research services. I was bored and in many respects it was demeaning to have knowledge and skills that I was unable to use lawfully in my career. At some point, I decided I wanted to finish my bachelor’s degree. I wasn’t interested in Verity Institute primarily because I didn’t need any more degrees I couldn’t use. And since that program was relatively new at the time, I had no desire to be one of its guinea pigs.
I enrolled in a Christian university that had a satellite campus near my house which specialized in adults who were seeking to complete their degrees. My parents weren’t especially thrilled about the prospect, because I “already had my law degree.” Eighteen months later, however, I graduated with a Bachelor’s degree in Management with a 3.9 GPA and a better understanding of business, myself, and the learning process. I also made a host of new friends. Within five months of graduating, I landed a new job that paid nearly 50% more than my previous job. Finishing my bachelor’s degree at 32 years of age left me with but one regret: Why hadn’t I done this sooner?
Going back, I think my parents wanted to believe all the promises made by ATI. Bill Gothard spoke with such conviction and faith in what God was going to do. I think they may have feared that I would lose my faith if I went to college and were exposed to different philosophies. Ironically, I have wrestled more with my faith in feeling like this Christian organization made baseless promises, if not outright lied. I also felt like it was completely irresponsible for ATI to encourage my parents to play Russian roulette with my future, based on a system that really had little track record of success (given the infancy of the apprenticeship program at the time my family joined ATI). For the record, between the two of us, my wife and I know at least 500 former ATI students and know of many more. I have yet to discover the identity of any recipient of one of those opportunities I mentioned above. And I’m only aware of one person who managed to “beat the system” by becoming an architect through apprenticeship without going to college.
As a side note, those struggles are mine alone, and I don’t “blame” ATI. No one held a gun to my head or to my parents’ heads and forced us to do anything. But as the old proverb says, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” And it ultimately all did work out for good for me.
In closing, I offer a few cautions: To those who are contemplating ATI, be leery of what is promised. In my case almost all of those promises were either not kept, or are so long in coming as to be useless (I’m already 37 years old and am married with 3 children–I don’t have the luxury of waiting in perpetuity). To those who grew up in ATI who feel duped and want to get your life back on track, I encourage you to do it! It’s better than having the exact same regrets 20 years from now. I’d be happy to help in any way that I can. Just send an email to the Recovering Grace team via the links on this site and they will forward your message to me.
"Clearly I don’t have the spiritual gift of construction."
LOL, Ryan. =o)
"To those who are contemplating ATI, be leery of what is promised."
Um, yes. VERY leery.
All the more since this "new way of life" is claimed to be backed up by God himself. Wouldn't be so harmful if Mr.G just said "hey, folks, these are my observations, and my conclusions..."
Always good to be leery of any one organization, church, or religious leader who claims to have the direct line to heaven and is eager to tell you in great detail how GOD wants you to live/act/look/speak in every area of your life.
"Wouldn't be so harmful if Mr.G just said "hey, folks, these are my observations, and my conclusions..."
Well said, Will. And some will likely claim that this is what he says, but I submit that those of us raised in ATI know better :)
Thanks for sharing little bit of your story, Ryan. I've had my own set of career problems due to my strange educational background. I have a job that requires a college degree but, alas... I was in ATI. (It was a fluke that I came by it. No, not a fluke... it was God.) This coming year, now that I'm inching close to 40, I plan on FINALLY getting my GED with my husband's help.
You can do it, Donna! And I will be the loudest cheerleader when you pass your GED and obtain your degree :)
awe, thx. you're a great friend. =)
Go, Donna! Go!
I agree with Teri- Go, Donna! Go!!!!
I would totally do it Donna!!! Good for you! Just think of how proud your kids will be of you when they one day realize the obstacles that you had to face! That will be plenty of motivation for them to easily breeze through their dreams!!
Thanks much for your account, RyanR. I also couldn't help but noticing yet another example of Gothard's and/or ATI's and/or naturally ATI's followers' Scripture abuse, here:
That verse gets abused so often to "prove" that Christians can know nothing for sure about their eternal Home (the New Heavens and New Earth) and should never speculate or even study what Scripture says about it. This, though, is the first time I've heard it abused in the way you described above. Does that passage in its context have anything to do with personal vocation (as important as that is) or figuring out God's will for your career in advance? Or is it exclusively about God revealing "secret and hidden wisdom," i.e. the Gospel, over and against the worldly wisdom of man? Hmm ...
The answer to what this passage is truly about seems clear enough. But context and subject do tend to get in the way, don't they, when we're busy salvaging Scripture for spare parts to fit into Our Own Lives and self-endorsement of man-centered systems? :-D
I wish that was the only verse I saw taken out of context during my time with IBLP . . .
Wow!!! So true!! I always wanted to be lawyer... uh ya, my parents "strongly encouraged" me to marry one. Needless to say, I didn't like the lawyer that they felt "had to be God's plan since he had put the idea into my head to be a lawyer." I am 4 credits away from my AA. :~( But I can't now because I am trying to get my kids through school.
Anyway, this article by Ryan brought to my mind that even apprenticeships have to have education. My husband is a licensed plumber. You have to be "apprenticed" of sorts (rather work under a licensed plumber with full pay and training) for a set time (not sure) and then you can either take the tests or you can pay for a school that trains you to take the tests and then take them. My husband went to the school to make sure he would pass. He worked very hard every night for about 6 months and then took both of the tests (every contractor has to take "law" and then he also took the one for "plumbing"). He passed with flying colors and we are extremely proud of him.
My point is, even when there is an "apprenticeship" avenue in the world, they still want you to be educated. It makes total sense, sense that Gothard fails to have.
Wendy,
In some professions, in some states, you are permitted to get your education "on the job". But for a lot of people it's either not practical or not valuable.
I know when I started OBCL, part of the reason I struggled so much was I had no context for the laws I was studying. Mortgages are a great example. I never had a mortgage before then, and my parents were fairly secretive about theirs. Certainly ATI didn't encourage them, so there I was learning about the "law of mortgages" but I didn't even understand what a mortgage was. Incidentally, I learned about them in a personal finance class I had to take to earn my associate's degree, probably a year after I finished my Property Law course.
Experiences like that left me to conclude that sometimes the "world's way" exists for a very valid reason :)
This is what upsets me the most...
The inablility to keep promises that so enticed people to the ministry. Most of us fell for this ideology that is not ideal in this fallen world or any. I also feel strongly that he profited from convincing alot of parents to invest in his ministry. That investment came in many different forms. Not the least being, the time our children spent literally building his ministry.
There were many who thought that building their character would get them somewhere in ATI only to be passed over because they didn't fit the "look" or not from the right family. Life in Mr. Gothard's world of "highter standards" is no different than it is in any other "world". I, myself, feel ashamed to have thought otherwise. I had more than one parent tell me, during my 2 year stay in the traning centers, that they allowed Mr. Gothard to decide which direction to turn in regard to their child's future, only to be very disapointed or sorrowful because they fell into sin while living in Mr. Gothard's "world". Mr. G. always thought that being in his "world" was the best for you and yours. While being hesitent, these parents thought he knew something that they didn't. Whose children are these anyway? God didn't put us in families for nothing. What I learned the most from Mr. G. was that I knew and loved my children more than anyone, therefore I should never abdicate my authority to him or anyone else for that matter. This was what provoked me to leave the whole ministry. Mr. G basically asked my girls and I how we could work anywhere else after working in this wonderful minstry. Not enough time to explain, I just had to laugh to myself and say goodbye.
Thanks Ryan for sharing!
Denise, it's even more ironic when you consider he has no children of his own and thus little context in which to make these types of grandiose conclusions.
Now that I am married and a parent, I have to say that I'm not very apt to take advice about either facet of my life from someone that hasn't walked the same road.
AMEN!
Agreed. Seems so stupid now.
ATI’s position on vocational training: College (even Christian college) = Evil; Apprenticeship = Godly. ” We were told that employers had told Bill Gothard that they didn’t care about college degrees. They just wanted young people with character."
I remember hearing this at the Knoxville conference; one of the few we attended. I remember telling someone highly educated what he said. They just laughed at me. Thanks for sharing your story Ryan. My heart goes out to you and others who are or have suffered on account of this false apprenticeship vs. college teaching.
Thanks, Tammy! I've really appreciated you sharing your story too!
The baseless promises is what bothered me most about ATI. I doubted my own ability to understand Scripture and hear God, but I certainly could see that what my parents heard and what I experienced didn't match up. I didn't point it out to my parents. I didn't want them to be disappointed, or worse, think I was "rebelling."
The only reason I regret not going to college is that now I don't have a degree as security in case my state ever decides I'm not qualified to homeschool my children. Well, the other reason is that I don't like taking polls and having to mark "high school education." However, I regret the manner of the teaching, which let me retreat into my fears of failing in "the world" and call it God's will.
My mom has a degree in education with a lifetime teaching credential through the state of CA. My dad never finished his bachelors. Growing up we struggled for money b/c my mom stayed home with us to homeschool (through ATI) while my dad constantly struggled. Long about the time my younger siblings were finishing up highschool my mom took a job, which her education/degree qualified her for, as an area coordinator for a charter school and was making quite a good salary. This continued for many years and my dad continued to do what he could. To this day my mom still makes comments about how "education isn't everything" despite the fact that my husband has the best job because of his soon-to-be-completed Masters of Divinity out of my entire side of the family aside from one of my brothers who got VERY lucky with his job (his wife also has a degree in psychology from a university in South Africa and lands amazing jobs). I just shake my head and think "yeah, education isn't everything but it sure does make a difference in providing for a family." You don't know how much I regret not "rebelling" by just going to school!!!
Ryan, this is all so true. ATI was never equipped to deliver what it promised, and the programs that did develop fell woefully short in terms of preparation for jobs that could actually provide for a family. I went to college at age 25. I wish I had done it sooner. On the bright side, my age, and those years of volunteer service qualified me for a free education at a state school (I was an adult with very low income, so I got a Pell grant, and also had a scholarship), so did manage to graduate without crippling debt. However, I attribute that to God's blessing on an individual who was really trying to seek His will, not to ATI. And the scholarship, to my mom, who made sure we had a good education despite using the Wisdom Booklets extensively. :)
As a former law librarian now working in a Christian University such as you describe (and maybe even the one you attended!) did it not seem odd to your parents that lawyer's today have a BACHERLOR'S degree FIRST, then they get a J.D.? That might be why you did better in community college. Honestly, I am hurting for you that you were so set up to fail! An unaccredited law degree earned BEFORE a bachelor's and they expected you to somehow be an attorney? These people need to wake up and see that all things in the world are not "worldly" in the evil wicked sense. There are simply rules you follow to be taken seriously.
I'm glad you aren't bitter--I certainly would be!
This is a truth that resonates with me.
My family enrolled in ATI in the early 90's. I faithfully attended basic seminars, Young Women's Seminars. Since we lived only an hour away from Indianapolis we made many a trip to the ITC for various seminars. One of my sisters even lived at the TC for a while working in the framing department. During my second Young Women's Seminar I had an opportunity to meet Bill Gothard and he learned that I was interested in attending nursing school after high school graduation. He made mention that ATI was looking into starting such a school, but it soon became clear that that was far in the future and may likely never be realized. So I switched my interest to lay midwifery since there were "apprenticeship" opportunities and a developing midwifery school connected with ATI.
My father and I even visited Oakbrook and discussed opportunities for me within the ATI ministry and its training centers. Looking back Mr. Gothard seemed to never get past the fact that I was not fully convicted regarding the teachings on contemporary music, that I worked in a nursing home as an aide, where country music was frequently played and I was not sure I did not want to attend college! Hearing other stories it is miraculous to me that I left there "unconvicted."
After high school I enrolled in online coursework through ATI where I went through the advanced seminar and took some science and math courses. In the midst of that I realized that I did not want to be a lay midwife. I wanted to be an RN, and college was the only way I was going to meet that goal. My parents still were not convinced. After stumbling onto an email written by my mother (without my knowledge) to the director of the Texas Training Center asking if I could serve there because "they as parents were not sure that college was the best choice for me" I wrote a note to my parents detailing my feelings (you can imagine I'm sure) and left that night to visit a friend of mine an hour away. Incredibly my parents paid attention and acknowledged that they may have been forcing me in a direction that I did not feel led by the Lord to go. There was never a reply to my mother's email and I enrolled in a satellite campus of Indiana University that fall, graduating in 2004 with a BSN in nursing. My mother and I have reflected on my decision and the ATI teachings at the time. She knows of situations where after their service and training in ATI grown men and women were moving back in with mom and dad because they had no skills to support themselves in the "real world."
I heard recently that ATI was changing, or has changed their stand on this area. While this is good how many have suffered because of it? How many men and women in their 20's and 30's are still figuring out what to do to support themselves? How many have gotten a very late start on their education or have lost their opportunities because of those teachings?
Ryan, could you please tell me a little bit more about 'an architect' who practices architecture without going to accredited college. How did he do? What program? What state?... Thank you.
Hi Tessalee,
Please email me through the site (the admins will forward your email to me). I would be happy to reach out to this friend to see if he'd be willing to answer your questions directly.
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ATI is educational fraud at it's finest. What is so surprising is that Bill convinced so many to go along with it. Yes, apprenticeship style training is found in the past in agrarian and craftsman type societies but that is over in our industrial times. Learning and knowledge has also increase to the point that apprenticeships cannot deliver the basic knowledge needed in most all professions. The importance of education and higher education has always been a hallmark of Christianity with the first universities developing from monasteries. I think if Bill really was interested in obtaining apprenticeships for ATI students, he would have used his big business buddies like Kimray and Hobby Lobby to supply them. Instead, it seemed like his ministry was feed a steady supply of young people to be used and abused by him.