Dear Grace,
As a former ATI (Advanced Training Institute) parent, I’ve appreciated many of the articles published on your site. They have opened my eyes to things that went on behind the scenes at IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles) and caused me to rethink much of what we were taught (and at one time I believed) by ATI.
One question, though: So many of your articles and the comments that follow them seem to be blaming the parents for all of this. Why are we blamed when we only wanted what was best for our children?
Sincerely,
Perplexed in Perkinsville
Dear Perplexed,
Most of us, as former students, have been encouraged not to be too hard on our parents. In many respects, we’ve been asked to work overtime to see this from our parents’ perspective and to give you the benefit of the doubt. Many of us have done this, and now we ask for the same courtesy — please try to see this from our perspective.
We know that you were sincere in your efforts to raise godly children, and we are grateful for it. There are several factors to consider when evaluating where the breakdown happened.
Most of us were children — incapable of making educated decisions — when our families first enrolled in the ATI program. We had neither the choice, nor the outside perspective, to evaluate things like Wisdom Booklets, the Knoxville training sessions, the benefits or detriments of higher education, courtship over dating, etc. Even our eventual decisions as early adults were largely made in ignorance from what little we were taught within the boundaries of the ATI program. And within many ATI families, the only decisions we were allowed to make in early adulthood were various forms of bounded-choice.
In contrast, our parents were fully-grown, emotionally-, physically-, and spiritually-developed adults when they joined the ATI program (often with much more “life experience” than they’d care to acknowledge). In many ways, though they were deceived too, they should have had more wisdom to see past ATI’s marketing hype (“Get perfectly obedient, godly children in these 7 easy steps!”) to the flaws within its teachings. Unfortunately, too many parents didn’t dig deep. Instead, they swallowed Bill Gothard’s teachings at face value — without question, without research, without reservation — and, in doing so, failed the number one requirement of parents: to protect their children from spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical harm.
Some parents did have reservations, but chose to stay in the program anyway, often failing to pass these reservations on to their children. Most failed to keep tabs on what their children were being taught separately, or were being pressured to vow, while in Knoxville sessions, conferences, and while serving at training centers. Many times our vocalized concerns were dismissed by our parents with phrases such as, “You must have misunderstood,” or “You’re taking it too far,” or “You’re just bitter/rebellious.”
In contrast, Mr. Gothard was (and often still is) put on a pedestal for his “wisdom.” While their own children’s pain was ignored, parents gave him a free pass because he helped some other person’s marriage, finances, or broken relationship. Often we were told, “He is an exhorter!” in response to why he gave us empty promises or phrased things in a misleading way. His motives were always assumed to be pure, but we were considered bitter or rebellious for questioning inconsistencies. Gothard was loved and revered; we were held at arms length and rebuked. And so, regardless of how damaging, graceless, or wrong the offense, many parents’ loyalty and love remained with Bill Gothard, while their own children were ostracized and family relationships were sacrificed over one man.
We know that our parents have also been hurt through the teachings of this program. We see your pain and empathize with your choices. We realize you have the difficult dilemma of either acknowledging that Bill Gothard was not God’s Anointed (as he has claimed) and The Answer to your broken family, or you are still clinging to the ideal that Gothard was some sort of modern-day apostle Paul and that you just didn’t apply his methods correctly. Neither option is comfortable, of course, because either way you’ve hung a lot of hope in the flawed promises of a man. In sacrificing relationships for principles, many ATI parents realize too late that they’ve lost the respect and hearts of their children.
I love God’s grace! Grace gives us a second chance — all of us — when we deserve none. It is possible for grace to transform broken family relationships, but only if we have made it an attitude of our heart (reflecting God’s unconditional, accepting love and forgiveness for others, regardless of what they do or do not do to deserve it), not another principle to put into action. No one can tell you, “Go do x, y, and z, and you will suddenly receive and understand God’s grace.” You can do a correct action, but without understanding and exhibiting the gracious heart of God in how you do it, it is for nothing. Martin Luther said, “All works, no matter how good they are and how pretty they look, are in vain if they do not flow from grace.”
The same is true of parenting. No matter how good your parenting, how many biblical principles you have applied, how many Wisdom Searches you have led your family in, or how often you have meditated on Scripture and encouraged your family to do so, if you do not exhibit a heart attitude of grace towards your children — unconditional love and acceptance in a way that they feel loved and accepted — you will most likely lose their hearts. Graceless homes do not build lasting relationships, because graceless homes do not have Christ’s unconditional love at the center.
If you currently have broken relationships with your children, or if you know an emotional wall has been put up and you’re not sure how to reach out to them, please don’t give up! In talking with many former ATI students, there is a common thread — they just want to be heard, loved, and accepted unconditionally. While some have given up on ever having a good relationship with their parents again, others still remain hopeful that a parent will reach out to them. In many cases, they don’t expect their parents to fully understand their pain; they just want them to listen, acknowledge, and validate.
One former ATI student shared with me, “As angry as I was at my lowest point, I never would have rejected an ‘I’m so sorry’ or an ‘I was wrong’ from my parents, nor would I have been inclined to turn around and beat them over the head with it either. Everyone is different, but I remember how angry I was (seething, really). I didn’t want vengeance…I just needed validation from them.”
Others have said they wished they could hear the following grace-filled acknowledgements from their parents:
“I’m sorry. I really hurt you, and there is no excuse for my behavior. It’s okay if you need to heal and don’t want to be around me for awhile. I’ll wait for you to let me know when/if you want to see me.”
“I am so, so sorry for being so selfish and neglecting your needs. I am sorry for using you to meet my own needs, and not loving and nurturing you as I should have. I’m sorry for putting you in the position of having to parent your siblings, and not being a real parent to you. I’m sorry I stole your childhood from you, and there is no way I can ever make that up to you. Please tell me more about how this affected you. I know it will be painful for me to hear, but that’s okay… I caused you so much pain, and I want to learn from my mistakes. If you don’t want to talk to me for a while, or ever again, I understand, and that is fine too.”
“We wish we had trusted God to guide you and simply enjoyed you as the capable adult you were.”
“I’m sorry we stood between you and God and invalidating your walk with Him. We shouldn’t have kept you dependent on us after you were an adult. We should have encouraged you to follow Him with all of your heart and not expected you to follow us.”
“We made a mistake in letting all those teachings take over our lives and relationships. We’re sorry we didn’t listen to you and made you feel like you needed to behave and think a certain way in order to be loved. We will love you no matter where you go or what decisions you make.”
“I was wrong. I do not expect you to forgive me; I don’t deserve it. But I was wrong in how I treated you.”
While there’s not an easy solution to restoring a broken parent/child relationship (especially in more difficult cases where abuse has occurred or trust has been severely violated), approaching your adult child with a heart attitude of grace, humility, unconditional love and respect will go a long way towards finding healing.
Sincerely,
Grace
July 31, 2024
I'm so glad this article was written.May God bless you,...in an aftermath of healing.
WOW! Excellent article. I would ***LOVE*** to hear my parents say these things to me!
I find it especially interesting that in none of these desired responses do the parents expect *instant* forgiveness. They give the offended party *time* to process & the freedom to possibly never forgive. That's very powerful..... after having everything we do scripted (bounded choice!!) for so long, to have that freedom is amazing! And ironically, if I know I don't *have* to forgive, I'm more likely to *want* to forgive after I've had time to process it all - and it will be genuine and most likely lasting forgiveness because it's MY choice! (Even if the forgiving feeling doesn't last through the ongoing recovery process, it's a good place to start.)
I agree. Forced forgiveness is not forgiveness from the heart.
As I started to read this article, I thought of the forgiveness we asked of our children for some of the teachings we followed as we raised them. We only went to the basic seminars and never participated in ATI. But our church was very much for Bill Gothard and his teachings. Thankfully, we realized the errors and harm in his teachings. We reached a point where we asked our children for their forgiveness--telling them we thought we were doing the right thing (I mean, the way Gothard presents his teachings, you will be more spiritual if you follow them and who doesn't want that as a believer?). It was heartbreaking to watch them cry as they shared the pain of how they felt about the way our church was while they were growing up there. Our children forgave us but to this day, we can see the negative influence that the legalistic teachings had on their lives. We have good relationships with them and pray for them every day.
This article is excellent! My heart aches for the pain that so many are experiencing because of Gothard's teachings. May the parents who read this article show grace to their children. And may the children show grace to their parents. It will be a process that takes place over time but our precious Lord abounds in grace.
If you don't mind a question - what brought you to the point of realizing you needed to ask forgiveness of your children?
SO few parents seem to understand a child's need for validation. It's almost as if they can't handle the thought of having made such a huge mistake so they take the approach of it not having been that bad...or they didn't know so they can't be held responsible.
It really is awesome to me that you took the steps towards your kids.
Actually it was through the teachings of the Bill Gothard seminars that I learned about asking forgiveness. I was rasied in a Christian home where there was physical abuse. My dad was a leader in some of the churches we attended and yet there was another whole side of him that only our family saw. I often thought that I would've forgiven a lot if he had asked for it (years later he did ask forgiveness for not being the dad he should've been). Long before that I realized that I needed to forgive him. It took years of praying and asking for God's help before I was able to do so.
I think that experience may have influenced me to ask forgiveness of my children--when I disciplined them incorrectly, or got angry with them, or hurt them, or relized that what we taught and how we lived in following Bill Gothard's teachings was wrong. They were always very forgiving.
I think when a family is in a legalistic type of teaching and especially using the Gothard materials, the parents are the authority as the Bible teaches. But it goes to far and becomes an authoritarian position. And we lived that way which I came to regret. As the Lord showed us the truth of the Bible and our hearts changed, we had deep regrets for how we raised our children (although we did not use Gothard's materials for schooling or go as far as he does. And we never had our children involved in some of the programs where they would go to IBLP facilities to live). So forgiveness was asked and granted.
I also had to ask the Lord for forgiveness and also forgive myself which isn't always easy to do.
I can only say it is only through the Lord's grace that any of this took place. Grace is a beautiful word that unfortunately is lacking both in speech and practice in legalistic circles. This beautiful facebook group (Recovering Grace) is a place where grace is being restored and shared.
Sorry if my reply was too long. Will have to try to keep posts shorter in the future.
YES, YES, YES. THIS article! I would like to thank Recovering Grace for the incredible help you have given me, I have been able to come to a place with God where I am no longer 'bitter' or even really angry/upset at my parents, and just wish my family could resolve our issues. I've had so much healing! I've even been able to reach out to my parents and try to start a good relationship with them! Baby steps.
Great response! I have always believed that my parents wanted nothing other than the best for me and my siblings. And I get the attraction of ATI - when I am frustrated with my children, I wish someone would tell me what to do and would guarantee the outcome. (Heh.)
While I can to talk to my mom about my view of ATI and she has repented as much as she is able, I still can't really talk to my dad about our ATI experience, even though we've been out for 15 years. I know that he regrets it, but the imbalance of power and his requirement of dependence on him back when I was in my 20s means that I still don't know how to have a grown-up relationship with him. Someday, I hope to be able to talk with him and maybe even hear him ask forgiveness for handing me over to Bill Gothard to "fix" me instead of spending time with me himself and getting to know my adult heart. I don't regret my time at the Institute, but I do regret the missed opportunities for my parents to help me become an independent adult. My solace has been seeing him handle my siblings differently and he treats my husband and I and our decisions with respect, although my journey to be become an adult has taken much longer and been more difficult than it needed to be.
This article represents so much why I love this website - it is Scriptural and full of grace but is also willing to state hard truth clearly and honestly.
I was reminded of James 3:1: "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." I don't think it's saying that not many of us should be parents, but I do think there is truth there that parents ARE held to a higher standard for what they allow into their home to influence their kids, no matter their good intentions.
Also, while children were trained well to "obey your parents in all things," were parents similarly instructed (and expected to repent) when they failed to live up to "provoke not your children to wrath"?
Yes! Good response! I have some relatives who, though they weren't actually involved in ATI, they held to ideas that are VERY similar as they dealt with the initial stage of having adult children. Years later they did say, "there comes a point when you just have to give your children to the Lord". And these samples are just that. That, even if you and I can never have a relationship again, I still apologize and leave it in God's hands. There are a number of relationships that I found that I cannot continue with those I used to know, and I have learned to commit them to the Lord. But, the relationship between parent and child is one of the most powerful on that note. May many on both sides find at least baby steps of healing through this article.
A very simple answer that I would give to the opening question would be:
Quite simply you were/are the adult. It was your *choice*.
I know that my parents would need to add to their apology that not only did I have to parent my siblings, but that this opening question (*if it were from my parents) proves that I also had to parent them at times. I do NOT share equal status with them at the time of enrollment. To this day, they do NOT see me as a adult, but yet they would want to me to bear some responsibility. That simply is not logical.
I doubt ^^ is the intent of the opening question, but I would say that a question of this kind from *my* parents would exacerbate the ongoing damage from the superiority they carry that nothing is EVER their fault. Please understand that I do not claim to understand the life circumstances of the questioner, but in *my* circumstances with *my* parents, the meaning would change.
A note of caution for JPU above, Please understand that those of us who have been rejected/neglected by our parents would turn and walk away again from the religious superiority in your words "turn you over to the Lord". If you are reaching out to your children, that makes you superior in that you have an inside track with God for cursing them. I'm sure that it would be better to give *yourself* to God (if you so believe) asking him to change YOU rather than still pointing the blame that you KNOW they are wrong and need God's correction.
I'm glad the Opening Question was asked and glad that dialogue can occur.
The hardest part of the ATI system is that, as children, we had no way to explain or criticize the program. As you pointed out, our questions or resistance was indicative of rebellion -- every time. I remember my dad telling me that I was exhibiting "apathy" and I needed to pray about it. It wasn't apathy, it was discouragement. But there was no way for me to explain that, because in order to do so, I'd have to point to ATI, which pointed directly to my parents' decision, which was rebellion.
I don't blame my parents too much. I blame the person who came up with the teachings and the system, and built in the whole "rebellion" clause to keep us from being able to throw off his burdens.
Until a couple weeks ago, I never knew a place like this existed. A whole bunch of people who have been hurt by the teachings of ATI and IBLP.
I am so overwhelmed right now I'm not sure what to think, let alone what to say. However, I am sure I will b devouring this website and hopefully also contributing to it.
For now, as I know I am just commenting on one article and not the website as a whole, let me just say thank you...and I hope I can find healing and help and then be of help down the road.
I am not alone!
Are you on facebook? Feel free to send an email to [email protected] and they can send you some links to some facebook groups as well.
It's a common experience for this to be a powerful emotional experience. The site will still be here if you need to take a breather for a couple days and come back once in a while :-)
You are certainly not alone. There are many FB groups that will help even more! Blessings in your journey to freedom! It's such a beautiful life!
WOW! Oh how I wish I could hear my parents say these things. My dad died in 09 and we never got to experience honest communication with him and now my mom is remarried and I've all but given up hope that she will ever understand the real damage that was done. I can't hold back tears when I read these articles because if the time ever came that she really cared and could acknowlege these things to validate my feelings, I would by no means turn her away!
Thanks Grace!
"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:17)
"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother." (Prov. 30:11)
Not blessing your Mom is the same as cursing . . . my point: By God's grace, take every ounce of favor your can for intent of your parents . . . walk away from Bill Gothard if you must . . . You don't have to accept a parent's perspectives . . . that is nowhere commanded in Scripture. But don't commit another crime by badmouthing and rejecting the ones who very likely were really trying to do the best for you, whom God seems to unilaterally command a "blessing" for. There is a vicious cycle of generations, pinging back and forth, because nobody seems to be able to really forgive and move on.
Alfred, I believe you are reading into Scripture something that isn't there. I don't open my mouth and say 'I bless my parent' (which, by the way, I pretty much do anyway), therefore I MUST automatically be cursing them? No. I DO honor my parents. But my parents are NOT holy, and never will be. I cannot, will not, and should not honor any activity that is wrong in any other human being, and sometimes MUST speak against it. Is this equivalent to cursing someone? No.
that being said, I fully agree that you must honor your parents (even the kind who rape their own kids? Hmm.. maybe not) as the people who brought you into this world, and in most cases, tried to do the right thing, yes, absolutely. As for 'badmouthing' goes, badmouthing is more of an attitude than the actual words used. If I caught my parents lying to people (which I have), what am I to do? I can neither honor or respect such a behavior, regardless of motive.
Should I quote 'love covers a multitude of sins and stay silent, while possibly the person they lied to is harmed by the lie? Which is what happened? What am I to do? By virtue of being their offspring, I am to stand by and do nothing? I do not think that is what Christ would have us do. How are we supposed to honor people who do devastating things eh? Where's the Scripture for that? How does this fit into your box Alfred? Do you see the trap of 'everything we do will never be good enough, these 'older and wiser' folks will always find a way to excuse wrongdoing, mostly by reading something into Scripture that isn't there....' sigh.
Having not suffered as many here have suffered, my comments are limited. I just seem some pretty unconditional statements in Scripture that indicate that the act of "badmouthing" (that is what a curse is, verbally tearing apart) a parent gets severe consequences. ATI parents that I - personally - know have as a group sacrificed a great deal for no reason other than that they wanted the best for their offspring. I resonate with the plea of the writer . . .
I get the need for understanding, honesty. Parents have no less need to humble themselves before their children at times as vice versa.
Maybe we should define what you think 'badmouthing' is before continuing this conversation.
Badmouthing is NOTHING like cursing someone. Cursing is deliberately and in full knowledge wishing or pronouncing an evil upon someone.
Complaining about someone's actions(especially in legitimate situations) is hardly cursing someone. I think implying that cursing is anything else is a false definition of what cursing is, and also a ploy used by authority type figures, to control people's complaints against them. (not accusing you, of course.)
Just googled cursing:
to wish or invoke evil, calamity, injury, or destruction upon.
11.
to swear at.
12.
to blaspheme.
13.
to afflict with great evil.
14.
to excommunicate.
Pardon the copy/paste format. (note, I believe the excommunicate was the type of practice that groups such as the Amish employ, cursing someone by casting them out of their midst and shunning for a transgression. I do not think this particular excommunicating is cursing when used for safety's sake, when you must cut someone out of your life, but not out of desire to punish.)
Not blessing is not the same as cursing any more than not giving is the same as stealing.
Not agreeing with parents or acknowledging wrong-doings is NOT dishonoring.
Jesus said, "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." Mt. 10:35
There are times when doing right and following the truth puts isn't acceptable to our parents. Then what?
The fact that we as parents love our children and mean to do right by them does not mean that won't do wrong and aren't accountable for it.
Really Alfred, your comment seems to be an attempt to silence, to deny the voice of the one who is healing. If a women finally mustered the courage to come forward after years of domestic abuse and make it public, would you try to shut her up with Bible verses? Would you tell her to return to her husband because God is against divorce? Would you tell her to submit to him because the Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands? How is this different?
You seem to offer platitudes. A biblical pat-on-the-head, so to speak, but no real help.
Healing from any type of relational abuse or mistreatment is messy. There are a lot of emotions and feelings that must be sorted out and verbalized. It is not a 'Sunday School' sort of activity. It is frequently ugly. I think there are people who do not know what to do with that ugliness as it spills out so they try to silence the hurting person. I would be more concerned about the healing process than further condemning a person in their legitimate journey of healing.
God knows the heart, He also knows the difference between cursng and cleansing the wound. This website offers a place for healing. A place where people's voices can be heard. Your 'biblical warnings' are kick in the gut to a wounded person who is trying to get on their feet again.
Fortunately, God takes us as we are and loves us and helps us heal. It's the other humans we have to watch out for. It can be difficult to recognize the safe ones.
'You seem to offer platitudes. A biblical pat-on-the-head, so to speak, but no real help.'
Yes, thank you. I also refer to that as 'damage control'.
I also thought it was interesting that Alfred decided to put that comment on this particular article. There isn't anything in the article or even any of the comments that comes across as badmouthing, or even really sour attitudes. Very odd.
"I also thought it was interesting that Alfred decided to put that comment on this particular article. There isn't anything in the article or even any of the comments that comes across as badmouthing, or even really sour attitudes. Very odd."
It seems to me that an awful lot of ATI parents see any rejection of ATI or associated decisions as an active slap in the face. That may be the way he's reading it.
Alfred,
I think your point of view is refreshing. I have a vastly different opinion than most articles I read here. I was raised by 2 of the "greatest generation".
And as their former rebellious child, I was able to show respect and honor to them after I became a Christian. And it was to little to late. Because I rebelled against their Christian teaching (and it was legal). All the scripture I memorized, I believed was true but I had no way to apply it, because I didn't have the Holy Spirit.
I was a gospel hardened church kid who was interested in giving my heart to anyone I liked or showed any interest.
I was born again as a young mother and wife and attended my first seminar in 1973, in Dallas, Texas.
But today, I see so little respect from adult children.
I see what I would call 'demanding' that someone account for the wounds they have suffered. I sort of want to put tongue in cheek and say where do you think you are? Heaven?
So I use the word 'demanding', because I don't think it's Christ-like to demand. I demand you make this right, I demand you who were leaders in my youth to account for the offenses you committed.(and they are still fuming)As if all of us have serious wounds that have shredded our souls.
I think perhaps some should make a study of the scripture, not to support this or that program, but of righteous behavior when wronged.
I think there is a breakdown in respect for elders. The attitude I get from my 40 year old, is Scripture may tell me to honor you, but you hurt me so all bets are off. And that's from a successful, happily married with 3 wonderful children, involved in church and lots of great Christian friends.
But no respect for elders. I have a theory that they (the 20,30,40 somethings) believe you must earn respect, it's not as it is in Scripture, a command. In fact it's one on the 10 commandments.
Some Psalm or Proverb comes to mind, Wisdom has set her table, in other words we are choosing what we consume or not and the consequences of that consumption or not.
They should have never lowered the age for children serving at Head
Quarters in Oakbrook. Our daughter served from 17 to 22, 5 years. She was just barely old enough at that critical time in her life.
Joseph's and Daniel's were what Mr. Gothard was desiring to see come from some of these kids. And there's nothing wrong with that agenda, but my husband and I knew that our kids weren't going to be his test cases.
But even in saying that, the amazingly great insight from scripture and testimonies of faith, (especially from Bill) we gained so much practical help for real life from the seminars, it was truly like Wisdom has set her table and we were able to feast.
Because where we were from, there was a famine of wisdom.
So when I hear the word 'cult' assigned to the Institute, I reject that.....not for us it isn't.
In fact no one from our past friends who were also ATI say they now believe it is a cult. Maybe the definition of cult has been changed for the specific purpose of including the Institute.
Ephesians 6 says that parents should not provoke their children to anger. If a child is angry, should not the parents ask themselves if they did anything to provoke it?
I absolutely honor my parents. That does not mean I agree with them on everything anymore. I hate to cause them pain. But I can no longer hide all my pain. I have to be honest with them, and that hurts them, which hurts me. It takes a while to work through that. But we are doing it. We are closer than ever right now, I think.
But the reason I can work through this stuff with my parents is that they really try to understand me, even when it hurts them. And they apologize when they see that I have been hurt. Yes, they meant well! My parents really did do the best they could! (That is definitely not true of all parents, though.) I acknowledge that, and thank them for the good they did. And then, together, we take steps to continue to grow in grace.
And no, I do not believe that trust is to be given freely. Trust must always be earned. Respect is similar, although I will not go so far as to say it must always be earned. I will say that there are some people (including some parents) who do NOT deserve respect, nor will I pretend they do. My parents do deserve respect, and I give it gladly.
Peggy,
First of all, thanks for chiming in and offering your perspective.
However, I see you trying to downplay the legitimate offenses of those of us who have been hurt by our parents and ATI. Isn't that also unScriptural?
I totally agree that we should show honor and respect to our parents, as I do myself. That does not mean I agree with them on everything-and I don't.
I do not display my parents' faults for the whole world to see. That doesn't mean it's wrong to respectfully point those out to them.
As for your comment that "respect is commanded," that sort of goes against what even Gothard taught-as he says "Earn the right to be heard, don't demand it." So yes, respect, even with parents, is earned. It cannot be demanded, as Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3:21 both also clearly demonstrate.
You say that you learned so much practical wisdom from being in ATI. Tell me, does that excuse the false teachings of legalism that ATI advocated as well?
How refreshing of you to NOT really read our comments and NOT see our hearts! Thank you, it's quite encouraging to see someone completely ignore someone else's problems, and gloss it over. I don't know where on this article you see anyone refusing to honor their parents. Honoring someone is not the same as being unable to respect wrong actions. Your post is most unhelpful. I do not discount your own experience by any means, but I believe you have grossly misunderstood the situation.
My parents REFUSE to even acknowledge that they wronged any of us (and when I say wronged, I mean, my police officer husband said the stuff they did to us would've earned them prison time.) I still more or less get along with them, and try my very hardest to respect them as the people who brought me into this world, and tried to do the right thing. I DO respect that. But we cannot have a full, healthy relationship if either of us refuses to acknowledge wrongdoing. They are disobedient to God by refusing to repent of sin, and disobedience is like poison to your soul. It affects you, and everyone around you. I am not responsible for this. I've done EVERYTHING I know Scripture tells me to do, to try to make things right. If they aren't willing, I'm stuck. And you want to tell us that we are 'demanding respect be earned' or 'refusing to honor' idk what your idea of honor is, maybe that's the problem, but it's impossible and wrong to honor wrongdoing, even if the motives are good.
Peggy, the Bible gives very specific instructions on how to deal with brothers who have sinned against us. It doesn't say, "Yield your right and go on." It actually commands us to go to the person.
Many ATI students were seriously sinned against by their parents. There was a LOT of physical abuse in many families. There was manipulation, lying. Some parents made the most important thing their reputation. There was hypocrisy. And there was a lot of unscriptural teaching, even in families where abuse was completely absent (just by nature of the teachings in the WB's). When the ones who were sinned against in these ways obey God by going to their parents and are told it was their issue, what's the Biblical command to do next? Tell someone else!!! And when those parents still refuse to repent, what is the next step Jesus commanded? Would you ask those adult children to disobey Jesus Christ or to expose their parents' sin to the church? Are they dishonoring their parents when they obey Jesus?
Peggy,
I am glad you gave your heart to Jesus in 1973. That is awesome!
I have a question: I wonder… Do all of your children still buy into the ATI/Bill Gothard teachings? You say…
^^^But today, I see so little respect from adult children.^^^ ~ Peggy
And also…
^^^I think there is a breakdown in respect for elders. The attitude ***I get from my 40 year old***, is Scripture may tell me to honor you, but you hurt me so all bets are off. And that's from a successful, happily married with 3 wonderful children, involved in church and lots of great Christian friends.^^^ ~ Peggy
Where do you see so little respect from adult children? Is this from your own children who have rejected ATI and Bill Gothard’s teachings?
Very Curious.
I am curious about this also. I see a lot of mutual respect between the generations. But then, this is not in BG/ATI circles.
^^^I think perhaps some should make a study of the scripture, not to support this or that program, but of righteous behavior when wronged.^^^ ~ Peggy
**Matt. 18:15-20** gives us direction regarding dealing with a sinful brother. Confront the person. If that doesn’t work take some witnesses and confront them again. If that doesn’t work take to the Church.
In **Luke 17:1-4** Jesus says to rebuke your brother if he sins against you. If he repents forgive him. (Verse 3)
In **Gal. 6:1-5** Paul instructed that those who are spiritual should restore in a spirit of gentleness those in the wrong.
What happens though if all this is done and the party at least partially at fault still refuses to admist any possibility of error?
<<>> ~ Peggy
Trust and respect are earned to a certain degree. Particularly trust. Especially when trust and respect have been broken. It also goes both ways. Parents are to trust and respect their children. Children are to trust and respect their parents. When the Bible says honor your parents the idea is to listen to them. However, once a child is an adult they no longer have to obey (either their direct instructions OR wishes) them.
Some parents just don’t get this.
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^^^But no respect for elders. I have a theory that they (the 20,30,40 somethings) believe you must earn respect, it's not as it is in Scripture, a command. In fact it's one on the 10 commandments. ^^^ ~ Peggy
<<>> ~ Peggy
Why do many people see ATI and IBLP as a cult?
1. ***Limitation of Contact*** with people outside the group – creating an “us versus them” mentality. Does this sound familiar? Re: Limitation of Contact - The New Testament encourages openness to outsiders (John 4:7-10, 39, 40; Acts 10; Acts 17). Jesus was so connected with the local community and engaged with “sinners” that he scandalized the Pharisees (Matthew 9:11; Luke 5:30).
2. ***Limiting Information*** in order to restrict what a cult defines (which is most often extra-Biblical) as negative influences such as Internet, News, activities outside certain boundaries. Does this sound familiar? Re: Limiting Information - I Thessalonians 5:21 says that believers should “examine everything carefully.” Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans who listened to Paul and then searched the scriptures diligently to see if what he said was true.
3. ***Stories and Revisionist History*** is used to prove points rather than Scripture. Does this sound familiar? Re: Stories - The Apostle Peter warns against exploiting other people with false words or stories (2 Pet 2:3). Biblical qualifications for church leadership have everything to do with truthful, trustworthy character and little to do with a person’s testimony or past life (cf. Titus 1; 1 Timothy 3; 1 Peter 5).
(Cont. next post)
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^^^ So when I hear the word 'cult' assigned to the Institute, I reject that.....not for us it isn't.
In fact no one from our past friends who were also ATI say they now believe it is a cult. Maybe the definition of cult has been changed for the specific purpose of including the Institute.^^^ ~ Peggy
4. ***Elitism***, this really has more to do with stroking the ego of the followers as people are taught they are “the cream of the crop,” or “special,” or “separated.”
Re: Elitism - Those who think they are better than others are usually the ones most in need of saving grace (Luke 18:9-14; Matt 20:16). Paul writes in Romans 12:3, “For through the grace given to me, I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”
5. ***Misguided Devotion to the Leader*** really has an impact on cults. All cults are ultimately a cult of personality. A leader of an unhealthy group will promote himself as the center of the group. Followers learn to speak highly of the leader, rationalize away their faults or outright deception, and white-wash their motivations and personalities. They may defend the leader even in the face of catastrophic circumstances caused by the leader’s sin or poor judgment.
Re: Misguided Devotion to the Leader - Never in the Bible are Christians commanded to devote themselves to their leaders at the expense of the truth. Christians should forgive sins, but they also must exercise special discernment in regard to leaders. If there is one thing God dislikes in his church, it is to have cults of personality. Paul addresses this matter extensively in his first epistle to the Corinthians (cf. 1:12-15; 2:1-5; 3:4-5, 21). Our allegiance is to Christ, not to a particular cult of personality.
6. ***Submitting to abuse*** becomes the norm. This can be in the form of physical, emotional, intellectual, or spiritual abuse. Once a cult leader has garnered total devotion from his or her followers, abuse becomes likely. This is because the group leader places his or her mission above the needs of the people.
Re: Submitting to Abuse - Paul speaks directly to this matter in 2 Corinthians 11:20 when he rebukes the church: “For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.” Rather, believers should know their own worth in God’s sight and not willingly submit to abuse from church leaders. Church leaders, for their part, must not “lord it over the flock” (1 Peter 5:3).
I could go on. I haven’t even posted anything about the concepts of shame and guilt, purity, commitments, human works vs God’s grace, public confession of sins (degradation instead of restoration), judgmental attitude towards those outside the group, idea that the Leader is near perfect (and only accountable to God), thought suppression, external focus (fear of man), etc. Like I said I could go on... And on.
In conclusion: A key measurement of whether ATI/IBLP is a cult will be once Bill Gothard passes away will his ministries still survive and even flourish? The training center in Dallas and Indiana are closed. Character First is distancing itself from Bill Gothard and IBLP. Are these signs? I would tend to think so.
Peggy, thank you for taking the time to share some of your story and perspective.
I am sorry to read that there is distance in your relationship to your own 40-year-old. As far as I know, the great majority of families who were in ATI are now divided families. I'll pray for your family tonight that you will find a road to restoration.
"And that’s from a successful, happily married with 3 wonderful children, involved in church and lots of great Christian friends." Not to pry, but have you communicated your feelings about how successful your now-grown children seem to be, and that you are happy for them? I don't know your situation but I have seen quite a few situations where it would make a significant positive contribution if the parents would let their kids know that they are proud of them and will respect their choices as adults in their own rite.
That's your response, if someone shares with you that you have hurt them? "Where do you think you are-- Heaven?" That is so callous, Peggy, I couldn't even read any further at this time.
The original article here does not speak of demands... It only speaks of what we *wish* we could hear from our parents... but perhaps most of us, never will. There is no demand, only a "what if?".
If it doesn't apply to you, move along... If it does, perhaps try a genuine apology vs attacking the wounded?
Peggy, First off while I can see where your coming from the uses of Scripture that you pointed out are dangerously out of contxet. The command to "honor your father and mother" has absolutely nothing to do with respect. It is a command to take care of your father and/or mother in their old age when they are no longer able to take care of themselves. Perhaps a deeper and less surface/ATI style of study would serve you better. Perhaps if you were truly looking for God's grace in such a situation you recognize that your son's response is God giving you grace to correct something that caused hurt or offence in his youth that he has carried with him (as most of us here have as well) for his whole life. It was Jesus who said that "it would be better for a millstone to be hung around your neck and be cast in the sea, than to cause one of these little ones to stumble." There are serious consequences for those who harm the physical, mental, emotional, and most of all spiritual well being of a young child or young believer. Doing what you thought was best is not a good enough excuse and when all we hear are excuses, how do you expect us to respond. Yes! Respect is earned. Honor is commanded. Which would you rather have anyway, An insincere false sense of respect because they have to? Or would it mean more if your son respected you because through honest communication and humility you were able to empathize and make an effort to be part of the healing process? If the latter seems to be more intimate and meaningful then you're really only left with one choice.
Peggy, you said: "In fact no one from our past friends who were also ATI say they now believe it is a cult."
I mean this as gently as possible, but have you actually checked with everyone you were friends with while in ATI? Or rather than asking them directly, have you even checked their online personnas, the things they are posting on Facebook, etc? I'm finding this statement especially ironic. You chose to use your full name to post here, it's obviously recognizable, and I knew people that knew you. So I'm finding it very hard to believe that absolutely none of the friends we happened to have in common, now see ATI as a cult.
Alfred,
Since when is disagreeing with a parent being dishonoring? And how is pointing out how your parents were wrong about something being dishonoring? News flash: it's not. Some of us are unable to have healthy relationships with our parents, because they still don't see what they did wrong, and therefore it would be an unhealthy situation. We are not rejecting our parents, but we are learning how to draw boundaries with them.
As for "being unable to forgive and move on," I think you're having a hard time moving on past your trying to excuse our parents for their actions, and your trying to downplay the very legitimate hurts of some of us.
I'm sorry Alfred, but your comment, here, qualifies as spiritual abuse. Gaslighting and shaming, in particular. First to dismiss the concerns (gaslighting), then twisting Scripture to manipulate for your own ends, as the parent figure, and shame those who would dare question or to say, "This isn't right." My opinion, anyone who uses verbal spiritual abuse on this forum should have said comment removed. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you), I am not a mod.
Those are among the same verses my father quoted to me shortly before I escaped that mess. He made sure I understood that according OT law, I should be put to death if I ever "rejected his God ordained authority" in my life. He put himself in God's place in my life in my "best interests". That was extremely damaging to my spiritual life. How about quoting something like, "better a millstone..." I've forgiven Alfred, but there won't be a relationship between my rather and I because of choices he made and his "unrepentence" if you will... All "in my best interest". Or so he thought. The arrogance required for your statements and this line of thinking is appalling. It seems that you label speaking the truth as "bad mouthing" parents. I've forgiven, but there is no "moving on" In a relationship with my father because he is toxic to my life. By his choices. "Moving on" for our relationship required cutting off the relationship.
Alfred, if I follow your logic that "not blessing = cursing," then you're saying that Jesus cursed His Mother!
I think you need to re-think your logic here. Because there were several times when Jesus, in fact, REBUKED His parents. (the scene at the Temple when he was 12, the wedding at Cana, the time when he pointedly ignored his mother publicly....) Yet we KNOW that He was without sin.
Logically, then, if Jesus never sinned, and if Jesus confronted His parents when their thinking was muddled, then confronting wrong thinking in your parents is neither disrespectful nor dishonoring. And CERTAINLY is not equivalent to "cursing."
I beg your pardon, but looking at the letter posted here, it does not look anything like badmouthing the parents. Dialoguing with our parents and communicating with them about what we've experienced is good for us and our parents. I'd want it too if I were the parent. This is the way we can heal and we can communicate with our parents again. It seems to me that your reply is off target and comes accross very negatively to us.
Heather, excellent definitions. Alfred, as one parent to another, good intentions are not good excuses. I think we need to lean on the side of helping these people heal. Our good intentions with our own children may only be filthy rags. This is what needs to be examined.
Wow . . . let the floggings begin.
I brought out some Scriptures that have impressed me. About blessing and cursing. Failure to bless does appear to be equivalent to a curse . . . at least for your Mom. Let me drop the Scripture here again:
"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother." (Prov. 30:11)
Here is an example of a curse:
"And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: The Lord hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the Lord hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man." (2 Samuel 16:7-8)
Later acknowledged to be a "grievous curse", the worst kind, by David:
"And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse" (1 Kings 2:8)
What he said was not far from the truth . . . he definitely wished ill on him. Wanted him to get what was coming to him, as he saw it, for the unjust suffering he (Shimei) had experienced. Cursing is . . . bad mouthing, speaking bad about.
The Bible really does say it. "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge." (James 4:11) When we judge someone for their failures . . . parents included . . . we are setting ourselves up as a standard of success and righteousness to do so. As a Judge . . . not a fellow sufferer.
And how about this? "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father" (1 Timothy 5:1) Intreat - "to beseech, comfort, exhort", that "exhort" being our word for the Holy Spirit, etc. A nice word. The standard for fixing parents seems a bit higher - kinder - than fixing others.
I was just bothered by "Grace's" response at the end showing the kind of statement a parent should make to their child, like, "If you don’t want to talk to me for a while, or ever again, I understand, and that is fine too.” and “I do not expect you to forgive me; I don’t deserve it." Wow . . . just . . . didn't sound like blessing your Mom, that was all. She bore, she cared, she sacrificed, she protected, she cried, she gave up any number of things to try and provide the best environment she could come up with . . . but . . . she messed up . . . it was a flop. Adios.
We all make mistakes, nobody more than I. Just ask my wife and kids. But I have tasted the pain and weariness of the way, the intense sacrifices made, the fervent wishes for the success of my children, the prayers, being humbled, getting the financial rug jerked out from underneath, pounded on by others . . . frankly sometimes hardly knowing what to do. I have lived and breathed ATI families for decades, and at the moment I am hard pressed to name a family that didn't walk a similar path of suffering, trying to do what was right. It is God's business as to ultimately what is right and honorable . . . but the notion of children despising and reviling their parents just . . . well . . . bugs me a tad.
Alfred, I don't think you get the difference between wanting to hear, "I don't deserve your forgiviness" and saying, "You don't deserve my forgiveness."
Wanting to hear that is simply a way of saying, "I wish they would acknowledge how badly they've hurt me." That's not dishonoring or not blessing or cursing at all.
You seem to think that ATI parents sacrifice more than others for their children. I don't believe that. My grandparents sacrificed plenty for the kids they had in public school. I have all intentions of doing whatever it takes to do the best I can for my kids (and I will never put them in a homeschool program that misuses the Word of God to the point that ATI does.)
Disagreeing with a parent is NOT despising or reviling them. Wishing for an acknowledgement of hurt isn't either. And in the very unfortunate situations of extreme abuse, making some space isn't either.
So basically you have an issue with a parent saying, "I did something really bad and I know I don't deserve for that person to forgive me." And because it's the child they are talking about, this somehow translates to the child cursing the parent? What kind of messed up logic is that?
You must've overlooked this part in the letter, "We know that you were sincere in your efforts to raise godly children, and we are grateful for it."
That is what most of us are saying. We DO acknowledge that our parents made sacrifices, did what they thought was right, etc.. We are not complaining about petty, small mistakes. Most of us are complaining about life altering, horrific wrongs, that our parents won't even acknowledge. There's a much bigger issue than whether or not we're honoring our parents, and we ARE honoring our parents. I'm sorry you choose not to see it that way...
I believe you started the floggings, pulling out a "whip" of Scripture to beat us with. Please don't so glibly brandish it, again.
I find it interesting that a common response by parents, to being confronted with these thoughts, is to run for "cover" instead of exercising some humility by considering what's being said.
The (apparent) clear implication here is, "As your parent(s) I/we should be exempt from accountability because we're your elders. James 4:11, I Timothy 5:1, etc." Said differently, "YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME LIKE THAT!!"
Many of the "children" of ATI families are now full grown adults. Many of us are 30's, 40's. When I was growing up (2nd year family) I heard and watched my Dad spend hours and hours arguing with other adults in the many churches we attended, for why his "position" or "thinking" (ATI & Gothard) was right.
My dad would've come unglued if anyone had dared suggest that his age (back then he was in his 40's) made him somehow "inadequate" to understand life, defend his faith, etc.
Yet I can't help but feel that there are so many parents of ATI adult children who still treat their grown children as though we're still 16. When confronted with things like are found on this site, instead of demonstrating the humility they so valued and wanted their kids to embrace, they're quicker to be defensive or attempt to hide under an "exemption" as elders.
Funny thing too, because its often these very same parents who are so quick to cry foul if/when the leaders of our country (see left wing liberals they don't like) try to do anything similar. (i.e. claim that they're exempt from accountability, re: the uproar lately about Obama considering enacting gun control reforms with executive order) These parents responses drip with the elite-ist, "I'm your elder" and "I'm not accountable to you" attitude
One thing I've often thought about is, what if I were in my parents situation (the tables were turned)? I think I'd feel like, admitting that I was duped by Bill and unwise in my willingness to embrace his "system" would be a really big deal. Largely because I'd be admitting that the direction I took for the majority of my adult life, was wrong. That's definitely big. Its akin to admitting that I got my entire world view wrong, or something similar.
I get that that would be really difficult to admit to one's self, I do. That said, its amazing to me how far many of these parents are willing to go to defend their "choices". Often so far as to accept the "consequences" of broken relationships (no communication, being cut off or cutting off, limited communication, adult children who intentionally put many miles of physical distance between them and their parents, etc) with their children and grand children over it.
From my viewpoint at least, there's a lot of pride tied up in standing one's ground in the face of such severe consequences.
The reconciliation of two parties takes the participation of both, it can't be one sided. For many of "us", we've spent lots and lots of time trying to mend our relationships with our parents but so often our "efforts"...fall on deaf ears, are met with resistance or worse.
Sad...very very sad.
Thank you.
Yes, Thank you, David.
We have agonized over our relationships with our parents. But I am convinced that they *want* to be victimized by their application of Scripture and retain their exempt status as leaders demanding absolute submission, rather than brothers who can be approached with ANY wrong-doing.
My parents would be horrified if it was "demanded/commanded" that they submit to ANY spiritual leadership. The beauty of IBLP was that they could pick and choose from the "wisdom at the table set for them"... and there remains no accountability.
PS. When parents are leadership, you see things like today where pastors (Calvary Chapel) are suing their own children who have tried Mt 18. Abusive parents can use the scriptural loopholes to no end...
Correction: Thank you, *Drew*! (my apologies)
**Matt. 18:15-20** gives us direction regarding dealing with a sinful brother. Confront the person. If that doesn’t work take some witnesses and confront them again. If that doesn’t work take to the Church.
I agree, and in the case of the Institute and people who were children or directed by parents, that would be a proper course of action.
Using proper channels to submit a case of blatant unChrist-likeness. As in the case of Paul confronting Peter about the exclusion of uncircumcised gentile converts.
My issue is with the concept of my 'wound' is so great and fresh and it's ruined my life. The gentle, kind start of the response is really a cloak of passive aggressive slam dunk, in your face, 'just let me tell you what happened to this innocent child', etc. and that was so wrong.
Without a doubt it is wrong, no question about it.
It's not the disagreeing, I repeat, it's not the disagreeing that is was wrong, it's the activism, zealot mentality that I take issue with.
I do not believe the concepts in scripture paint a picture of activism, on the contrary, the picture or concept is one of love, that's sacrificial love as in 1 Corinthians. Love does not consider a wrong suffered.
Many of Jesus disciples wanted Him bring justice for Israel against the Romans. But that's not the message or ministry of Jesus Christ.
A couple of examples come to mind about dealing with injustice, being truly wronged, suffering at the hand of someone who you trusted are as follows:
Joseph,who was terrible wronged by members of his own family, 'You meant it for evil God meant for good'.
King David, a man after God's own heart, 'It was good for me to be afflicted.'
One of my favorites, 1 Peter, I'll paraphrase, 'When reviled, did not revile in return, but entrusted Himself to the one who judges righteously.'
Then skip to chapter 3, 'In the same way you wives be submissive to your own husbands, and they will be won without a word.......even submit to the froward.
But it's clear our reaction is to be like Christ think that first, not about your personal hurt.
And lastly back to the OT, 'What does God require of you o man? That you love mercy and walk humbly with Thy God.'
Love mercy, the first thing you want is '''not to damage a fellow believers reputation'''' by becoming '''an advocate for yourself'''.
Furthering the Kingdom of God should be the priority of Christians, not personal vindication.
NO WONDER CHRISTIANS HAVE SUCH A BAD REPUTATION IN THE WORLD TODAY! Do you really think Christians are hated in the world because of ministries like Basic Life Principles or Christian who want to devour each other? Are you ignorant of the devices of the Devil, I would say, yes.
'By this shall all men know you are disciples' that you expose all their faults publicly, no that's not it.
I also realize you have a need to explain how you disagree with the concept and implementation of a particular program.
We did not buy into every program, because clearly some were based on application rather than principles. All institutions are run by fallible men.
I also hear continually 'damage' and 'healing', lifted up as the purpose of some of this writing and in contrast, I hear be careful not to 'throw the baby out with the bath'. Somehow there is a mixed message there. I noticed one poster who said she was not taking a stand as a Christian, but a human being.
My ears perked up at that because that would ring more true than a Christian saying God allowed these things in my life and, you fill in the blank of how you reacted.
And I just want to add the following scripture to illustrate the fact that there is conversation that
God notices and is pleased and so much so, that He wants a book written to mark those conversations.
I'm of the opinion that some of the conversations I read here are not like that. But then if they are only speaking as human beings, I guess it really does not matter.
Malachi 3: 16
'Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear Him and who esteem His name. They will be Mine, says the Lord of host, on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.'
Peggy,
Does Matthew 18 refer to doctrinal issues? I am sure if someone got up in your church pulpit and preached that adultery was actually morally ok, that you would not consider that a Matthew 18 situation. Does not Matthew 18 refer more to personal issues between two people?
Regarding forgiveness and "suffering a wrong" in the name of love, should we then ignore the fact that Bill Gothard/ATI covered up abuse, and in some cases, quite likely broke the law by not reporting it? Exposing something like that is not "damaging a fellow believer's reputation," we're not damaging it, they damaged their own reputation.
Peggy, there certainly is a time for love and mercy. Jesus certainly demonstrated that. But He also had some extremely harsh words for the Pharisees. The Pharisees presented themselves as the honorable religious leaders - worthy of the most respect - demanding respect. They had different rules for themselves than what they handed down to the people. Hypocrisy.
It is hypocrisy that we are trying to expose here, as Jesus did. He didn't mince words. Neither will I. I will be gentle when at all possible, but I will not back down. When someone sets themselves up as a teacher and then refuses to follow their own rules any time the rules are not 100% convenient, should we let it happen without exposing it? I don't believe so.
The Pharisees ruined the lives of many people. Literally. Some of the elderly parents likely starved due to the Pharisees letting people out of the command to honor and care for aged parents (for a nice fee, of course!). When I see people's lives being ruined by hypocrisy, I must stand up and say something.
I have seen people so spiritually wounded that they have rejected Christ. That isn't their fault. It is the fault of those who killed their heart - all while claiming to do God's will and have the victim's best interest at heart.
Dear Peggy,
I find it interesting that you feel wronged by the lack of respect that is "commanded", by your son and others of his generation, such as myself. Hmm. Shouldn't you just love us and not air that so publically, by your own [or Biblical] standards?
But then you tell us how we should, in love, overlook the [gross - *my word not yours*] things that have happened to us. I'm active in my recovery. I've owned the damage that happened to me, and more importantly my responses to it. So much so that if you go back that you will find that it was once me that claimed that my "stand is as a human being" (your paraphrase)
I don't claim that the damage in my life was the result of an IBLP doctrinal issue and I have no desire to split hairs over Biblical interpretation or to throw stones back at my parents since they said that I deserve to die by stoning. I *could* by quoting another biblical reference, that they deserve a millstone hung around theirs for misleading children. What would be the point, other than proving that perhaps the Bible is condoning very violent behavior?
I do not understand why arguing over Scriptural application always trumps the human factor of my genuine hurt while your hurt over not being "honored" goes unchecked...
I was unclear as to your meaning here and here: "Somehow there is a mixed message there. I noticed one poster who said she was not taking a stand as a Christian, but a human being.
My ears perked up at that because that would ring more true than a Christian saying God allowed these things in my life and, you fill in the blank of how you reacted."
"But then if they are only speaking as human beings, I guess it really does not matter."
^^ That might be the reason that your Chistian msg isn't clear... God allowed my parents to be how they were, here is how I am reacting, calmly and choosing to walk away from abuse... but since I am only speaking as a human being, "I guess that it really doesn't matter."
Genuinely confused...
Peggy, I am sorry if this particular article appears as a piece of militant activism against parents who were trying very hard to do well by their children. If that is what you take away from it, then the intent of effective communication has completely failed. I believe in activism against cults and abusive systems, and I don't apologize for that. But I don't believe anyone wants to *hurt* their parents, here, only to have an honest dialogue. I pray that can happen with your 40 year old offspring that you reference.
I have not yet posted a comment on here, but feel like now is the time... This letter spoke volumes to me. A parent, devastated that there was hurt caused is not the typical reaction I have personally seen when dealing with x-ATIers. Usually, it's is like Alfred and Peggy, trying to make excuses for the way other people feel. I was an angry bitter person, hiding from recovery, because then i would have to start facing my current reactions to my past hurts.
Alfred and Peggy,
I have no respect or trust for my parent. I am no longer angry, and i have forgiven them, but that wasn't for them. In order to move forward in the healing process i could no longer let them take space in my head. I do not wish harm on them, but i do not wish them in my life, as they are toxic people who have continued to hurt me throughout my adult life. I do not live in the past, i take responsibility for my actions of today, and reactions to my family. When trying to heal from an abusive past, whether spiritually, physically, emotionally or sexually it is best to remove oneself from the perpetrator, and though forgiveness is achievable, it's NOT deserved. Many of us have had more than one type of abuse from a parent, and you telling us that we need to get over it and move on will not bring healing. It seems to me that you don't understand that provoking a beaten animal will always end up badly for the one doing the poking.
Jesus' heart must ache at the way His Word is used to bludgeon. He took the time to write -
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And is this where we go to find our answer? No. Instead we quote how and when a person will be measured as a servant of God, with the intention of holding up a standard against which the former ATI students should break themselves. This is not my God. This isn’t even the God of David. For every “it was good that I was afflicted” there are 100 “oh God deliver me from”, or “why have you forsaken me.” Unfortunately David did not have a system by which all in the earlier generation could tell him how whiny and disrespectful he was for questioning God.
The matter of truth is, David had one of the most remarkable relationships with God that we see in the bible. Such that God speaks of him as a “man after His own heart.” David has times of strength, he has times of weakness, he gets lonely, angry, depressed, joyful, peaceful, and hopeful. None of which is dishonoring to God. Nor do we see God say, “Stop thou dishonor of me, for thouknowest that to whine is to curseth.”
Seriously, I cannot comprehend, even with my own parents that I love, why the concept of RELATIONSHIP is so lost on them. That’s what this is. This isn’t a hierarchy. It’s a relationship. Its fellowship. It’s the image of God that we were created in. And between us and our parents, it is in need of repair.
Luke 10:25-37
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Who are our neighbors? Everyone in need is our neighbor, according to the following verses. Did Jesus tell the expert in the Law to “fear God so that your name will be written in the book of remembrances?” Nope. Jesus is dealing with a heart issue. I am my parent’s neighbor. I am Peggy’s neighbor. I am all of these students’ neighbor.
I have pleaded with my parents to talk to me about these things. But there is an invisible wall. We’ve discussed it here before if it could be a fear of failure, a refusal to open up to what has been done, a desire to not dig up old history…I don’t know, but there is a disconnect. However, if a person cannot stop, humble themselves long enough to listen to their precious children, and honestly try to understand and bind the wounds, then they need to revisit the Truth on which all matters of the Law and Prophets (including Malachi) are written.
You know what I want to hear most from mom and dad? "We care about how you feel." That’s really it. My parents seemingly have no concept of the capability a child has to forgive. and really, forgiveness is not even the issue. I want what I never had before with them. An actual relationship…not a standard. I want them, in my life, with Grace and Love...I want to be enough to them. That's it. Nothing short of that changes my life. But if they would meet me there, it would shatter all of the walls, bind the wounds, and heal hearts.
Please do that for your kids, Peggy and Alfred. Just love them with Grace, and do it to a fault.
Phillip,
I love your reply! A relationship is what I always wanted most from my parents. Thanks to this website and getting support from others in similar situations I was able to be open with them about the past. We've talked and discussed just about everything related to growing up in ATI and the false teachings found in IBLP programs. They have apologized and I've forgiven them. Growing up I always thought their love was conditional on my doing x,y,z. Now we have a relationship built on trust, respect, and unconditional love.
With my husband and I expecting our first child soon I know we'll mess up. We're human after all. I can only hope that I will admit when I am wrong. My goal is to make sure my daughter will know I love her no matter what.
Faith, that is so awesome!!!! Glad to hear it! Hopefully I'll be next! I'm fortunate to not need to cut my parents out of my life, although at one point I was afraid I would have to, for my marriage and future children's sake. But things are better now. I think ATI parents just freak out at the thought of losing control. (Control that God never gave them in the first place. No human can even control themselves, much less another person.. but I digress...)
Yeah, it wasn't easy for any of us and it didn't happen overnight.
+1 on that, Faith. How wonderful that you have that for your relationship with your parents, and the relationship they will have with your expected child. Congratulations, by the way.
And kudos to your parents for having a courage and a willingness to listen, understand, and participate.
Phillip,
And you know that I haven't humbled myself already. In fact it is not our involvement in ATI that my kids take issue with me. It's all my faults.
I had issuses with my parents, I called them wolves in humas suits.
Lots of anger. (I have a personal story of how those relationships were totally healed and it actually required repentance on my part, even though they wronged me. ref. Kay Aurther 'Lord Heal My Hurts'[concept])
You,Phillip, see truth from a certain point of view. Not once did you comment on the concept of suffering ie 'love does not consider a wrong suffered'.
Why do you think there is a wall between me and my kids? In fact there isn't, but they feel very free to disrespect me if they choose, because now they can. It is the age we live in. Thanks for being kind and respectful, but you don't know my personal story. But like I said in my post there is something wrong in the concept of holding on to hurts. It's not personal it's a concept or dare I say the dreaded word principle.
Peggy, I almost hate to bring this up, but you say there is something wrong in the concept of holding on to hurts. (I think it very likely that most here would agree with you.)
I must ask you, are you not holding on to your own hurts of disrespectful children? And could it be that you are blinded by these hurts in some manner?
I can't tell for sure what your story is, but it seems to be a bit different than the general stories on RG. Therefore I offer this possibility, you may not be able to see things from our perspective, much like we may be unable to see things from your perspective on this issue.
Something Phillip said gave me some thoughts. When Christ said we are all equal, slave, free, Jew, Greek, male, female, this produced the belief that all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, past, present, future, etc... Now where is hierarchy in all of this? (Aside from common sense guidance to those too young and inexperienced to make good decisions, i.e. children), at what point are parents 'required' by the laws of love (Christ), to treat their grown offspring as a brother or sister in Christ? And vice versa, grown 'children' treating their parents as brothers and sisters in Christ.
I think MOST of those commenting on RG have gradually come to various places of healing, enough to TRY to resolve matters between themselves and their parents, but restitution and restoration has to take both parties working together willingly. And given that the parent-child natural relationship is one where both parties naturally want the approval of the other, it's something that most of us will want to keep trying until we realize that no effort on our part will bring about desired result. Where are we supposed to be able to weep and mourn these lost relationships?
It doesn't matter whether you are the parent or the child, if you are disobedient to God and refuse to acknowledge where you are wrong, repent, apologize where needed, and try to gradually restore the relationship, you are poisoning yourself, and hurting an innocent person in the process. RG is a great place to post advice, comments, and the actual process for those reading who may not feel that they can chime in, but it may help them considerably. And none of us are naming our parents, or trying to shame them.
I do NOT want to shame my parents, I can't even begin to tell you how many comments I've erased, or times I've shut my mouth, specifically because I wish to honor them as my parents. I never can, and never will honor any wrong behavior.
Heather,
You sound so noble.
You're right, disbedience is disobedience.
Some wars cannot be won with words.
When I say that my relationship was healed between me and my parents and that it took repentance on my part, aren't you even a little curious or do you already know what I'm going to say about growing up as a depressed child and asking God to take my life because it was so painful to live with the anger, over correction and in the same breath scripture poured down my throat.
Your relationship with your parents was healed in part by repentance. I'm very glad to hear it. I wish that's all it took for my relationship to be healed. Lord knows I've repented of PLENTY. Of course I don't know what you would say, your story is your own unique event, just as mine is.
Peggy, thanks for your reply. I feel I was very careful to speak in a broad stroke, and certainly did not say that you were not humble. If you felt I did that, I will tell you I did not try to assume that you were not humble, or to know your story.
I agree with you about holding on to hurts. Surely we would all agree it is most emotionally healthy to release those. Some I know have, others have not. Here's what I have found is the hard part...Healing and release of hurts is a personal journey - it takes time. And for people on the outside looking in, it is tough to know where on that journey they are. I am at one place, where in the absence of my parent's involvement in my healing, I have chosen to believe they intended well...its all I can do. My younger sister is at a different place. She is angry. She feels betrayed by promises made to her. Mutual friends tell me she is walking down a "dark road" "rebelling"...my perspective is, she is hurting, sorting it out. I've been there, and she will make it. What do we do in the mean time? Does it profit to try to label what we see externally? We both know God looks on the heart. I walked a pretty dark road, but I know and God knows my heart cry every day through that. I believe God loves us THROUGH it faithfully as a good work He started in us. But I also let her be angry, and even take it out on me sometimes, because that is what she needs.
I am sorry about the anger you have had with your parents, also, but glad that it was healed. Again, the perspective I speak from is what I saw when my grandparents vehemently disagreed with my parents' decision to homeschool us. It wasnt pretty. And they chose anyway. We could all wonder if it was because they dishonored their parents that I and my siblings are here...but why? Back to the point.
Probably the ONLY way I have been able to release much of the abuse (physical, emotional, spiritual) that I have endured is to realize that my mom and dad are human, too, with hurts just like me - just like you. I love them for who they are, and I wish that they would find some healing for their own wounds, too. They choose not to, and I dont know why. So, I am not angry with them, I dont hate them - and while they do frustrate me at times, it is part of being family. That is how I love them, and not hold their wrong against them.
I can tell you they don't care for my involvement in these former ATI groups. But that is the whole point...there are people that hurt out there. And then there are people that used to hurt, trying to help those that are not as far along in the journey...letting them express themselves, letting them feel, and letting them know they are ok. My heart specifically is for those that had their compass re-calibrated by teachings that were misused. The hope being that in the end, we reach a place where we can keep others from hurting the way we did, or at least help them to hurt for far less time than we did.
I believe that's what RG is here for. Not to slam parents, but to shed light on the truth of what happened to their children, and to give the "children" a voice they haven't been allowed to have before.
I'll wrap with this...My dad told us all our lives that God saw across time and across generations...His perspective was whole. Ours is on today. If I was to err on one side or the other, I would err to allowing people the freedom to work through their hurts, without judgement or labels, hoping as He does, that in the end, Love and Grace captures their heart and mind.
PS...I dont know how old your children are, mine are only 11 and 9. I cant imagine how much it would hurt me if they were purposefully disrespectful and uncaring of my love for them. I figure it is coming, sometime in the next decade, tho. And I figure they will wise up in their 30s, as I did. I also should probably start them a Therapy fund to go alongside their college fund, to deal with all the issues of having me as a parent. ;) But in all seriousness, I am sure it hurts, and I'm sorry. Maybe when mine get there I can ask you how you made it through.
LOL at therapy fund - you may be onto something.
RG's existence is to let the hurting know they're NOT ALONE. Its to give voice to mouths that have been silenced and to give a microphone to lips that were told that to speak (question) would bring consequences from a God who expected them to adhere to a "higher standard". Its to be a platform for questioning, feeling, asking, healing. Its a safe place. It will ALWAYS be.
Yes! This is why RG has been so helpful.
Phillip,
You touch my heart, and I appreciate your words.
I think I'll leave it there, I do agree with your Dad.
Wisdom is not always packaged in a way that is appealing or attractive, and that's to bad.
Many times parents are cluless that they are hurting the spirit of their child, which was the case with mine.
I had my first baby in 1972, my overhelming thoughts were, I'm determined that you, my little child, will feel like a whole and real person. I had no identity, no self worth.
I was so amazed when the Holy Spirit drew me and Jesus was revealed, and He wanted me and I wanted Him.
You say it truly, 'He starts a work in us'.
My parents were real Christians whos lives at the end of their years was letting God sanctify them, without much struggle.
That's saying volumes, because being comformed to the image, or having the same attitude as Jesus is a tall order for us humans.
They gave me a bridge of faith that I now walk.
They also showed me how to die with grace.
I am their only child who returned to the Lord. My brother took his own life, and my younger brother died last June. He told me after my husband (of 35 years)died, that he didn't believe like me. That when you die, you just die. He heard the same scripture as me, 'I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.' That always stuck with me the most. Also 'if you love your life, you'll lose it, but if you give Me your life you'll find life.'(bad paraphase).
I did fear the Lord and believe what He said was true, I just never knew Him personally.
I hope you have that joy that only comes from seeing your children walk in the truth.
We had 3 and two are seeking the Lord and teaching their children the same. The youngest, he breaks my heart, and there is nothing I can do but ask God to have mercy on him and grant him the will to repent.
The less I say the better, he knows what I think.
The goodness of God draws us to repentence.
Thanks again, Phillip, I'm encouraged!
Peggy,
You have touched my heart as well. I cant imagine the loss you have suffered, to lose your husband, and the kids their father, as well as your parents and your brothers. That you carry on and strive for God is a testament to His Grace, and your strength. You have my respect, and may God continue to bless you.
Thank you so much for sharing with me. I'm amazed at the common theme. How many can relate to " I had no identity, no self worth." How many of us with kids can relate to looking down on our precious gifts with the God-given love, protection, and genuine desire to give them more than we had. Will we be able to do that? By God's Grace we all hope and strive. Will we be able to do that perfectly? Sadly, no. I would give my life for my children, but no matter what I desire, I will not be able to raise them without hurting them. I have lost my patience with them, I have wrongly disciplined them out of misunderstanding, and I have seen their hurt. What can I do? About the only thing I can think is that if I am in fact human, and I make those mistakes, I have to relate to them as they grow in that way - as a fallible person that loves them more than I love my own life. I have to take my perspective and reach down to them where they are, ready to admit my faults, ready to be transparent, ready to face the hard questions, knowing that it may take them some time to come to their own realization that I really do love them. So easy to say, God give me the strength to do it. Because the wall I spoke of earlier comes in large part to coming to my Dad, and asking him about things I saw growing up, and having him say, “Your mom and I decided we do not discuss our personal relationship.” Why? I see your humanity…I love you anyway…I just want to relate to you! I want your love and help. Talk to me.
When I was in counseling, out of the thousands of things said, the one thing I took away above all else is that our experiences, our hurts, our successes revisit us throughout our lives and each time we look at them differently. This is the essence of the journey. It doesn’t end, until we die. I correlate my memories of a child differently now that I have had children. I will correlate them differently again when I have grandkids. So, what has changed? Perspective, as you said. As I watch my children grow, I realize their experiences will be similar. Their perspective will change as they grow, as they have kids, as life hits them. Its cyclical. I pray God allows me to walk with them through all of their joy, their pain, their life changes, until God takes me home.
Is this not also the very essence of our walk with God? He wants us to – like David – bring every feeling, every hurt, every celebration to Him. He wants to be with us, until He takes us home.
In summary, have we not all faced hurts? Are our struggles in life not common to all? We need people like you, Peggy, to share with us transparently. We need to understand the humanity of raising kids. We need perspective of a place in life we haven’t reached. But at this point, we need that with mutual respect as younger peers. We know parents have failed. We know we have failed. We all need to heal. We want to do it together.
Thank you, Peggy, for listening.
Some thoughts for all of us replying to the article and reading/replying to comments on this thread:
You May Have Legalism (And Not Even Know It) In Your Life…
1. If you believe God’s love for you depends on your efforts or what you do.
2. If you believe God’s love for you depends on how much you have done for Him lately and the love you... have shown him recently.
3. If you fall short in your mind because you need to be a better person, you haven’t prayed enough, or you don’t have enough faith.
4. If you believe God is predisposed to be angry with you because you are a sinner and let’s face it He knows you can do better.
5. If you know God’s law but don’t have a personal relationship with Him.
6. If you focus more on your fellow Christians church attendance, tithing, version of the Bible, outward appearance rather than getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord.
7. If you have grown accustomed to living by the expectations of others, especially those in positions of authority or your local church, as this is essential to your life.
8. If your sense of worth is based on the opinions of a Christian leader, your reputation, your church membership, or a group’s opinion of you rather than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
9. If you are more concerned with your reputation than with heart change in your life conforming to Christ.
10. If you tell your children not to do something at church or around other Christian families that you allow in your home or elsewhere.
11. If you believe that what people wear, skirt length, swimsuit type, tattoos, piercings, hairstyle, length of hair, etc. is a clear indication of a person’s spiritual maturity and character.
12. You look at people’s lives and instinctively judge them rather than see them through God’s eyes – a work in progress for those who Believe and potential children of God for those who do not.
13. You believe you’re standards somehow make you superior to others.
14. When you miss a service or program at your church, even with a legitimate reason, you feel guilty.
15. You’re so loyal to man-made tradition you don’t think any significant change could possibly be from God.
16. You believe you’re church/denomination is the only group really focused on teaching God’s Word.
17. You believe that those who have been divorced are less valuable in the eyes of God and you feel superior to them.
18. You believe that how your kids turn out is solely your responsibility and the measurement of your success or lack there-of as a Christian parent.
19. You believe that even associating much less discussing ideas with those different than you is sinful compromise.
20. If you believe that the expression of spiritual gifts (provided by the Holy Spirit) is evidence of one’s personal walk with God.
Philip: 'You know what I want to hear most from mom and dad? "We care about how you feel."' That I get. I can't even imagine parents not extending that to their children. That would just be pride.
Jesus comes before Family, Family comes before Principles. Parents sometimes get the first and third mixed up. Children are not to be provoked to anger.
I am sure my comments were a bit insensitive and unbalanced.
"Jesus comes before Family, Family comes before Principles. Parents sometimes get the first and third mixed up. Children are not to be provoked to anger."
What I wouldn't give to hear my dad say that! That notion of family before principles could immediately transform so many family relationships that are currently devastated.
For us "principle guys" that is a hard statement to make. I am the guy arguing with others about lies they have accepted and truths they need to embrace.
Every strength is a weakness . . . people like your father (from your comments) and I stand when others fall, persevere when others give up . . . we see things through to the end.
Problem is when God gives a test to see whether we can accept the humility of messed up principles in exchange for doing what is higher, right. As a lot the Pharisees were actually the "rightest" group around . . . conservative, literal interpretation of the Bible, looking to uphold standards that God said needed to be upheld, things others were compromising in. Good people were Pharisees. But . . . there is the problem. God has a "pecking order" of principles, and if we have to let go of the highest to hold on to the lesser, we have proven that we really love the principles more than the Lord.
"But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." (Matthew 12:7) He COMMANDED sacrifices . . . but if forced to choose, the sacrifices go in favor of mercy.
"If we have to let go of the highest to hold on to the lesser, we have proven that we really love the principles more than the Lord." I like that thought, Alfred. Fully agree. Matt 12:7 a great example of pursuing the heart of God's 'principles.' I also like Matt 23:23... "You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." Doesn't rule out the 'tithing' practices, but says there are 'weightier matters' at stake.
I am a lay Christian counselor, and I have lurked on your website a few years, because I've found it helpful with some of my counselees. Though we never used the material ourselves, we were familiar with ATI and IBLP, for we homeschooled 18 years, and attended a church with a large contingent of ATI families for over 10 years.
In reading this article, and others on this site, I think many children of former ATI families make a common mistake. It is found in your early sentence: "In contrast, our parents were fully-grown, emotionally-, physically-, and spiritually-developed adults when they joined the ATI program (often with much more “life experience” than they’d care to acknowledge)."
Though your parents were fully grown physically, I can tell you from the counseling I've done with former ATI parents that most of your parents were NOT emotionally fully grown. But I can say unequivocally that in every.single.instance.of.counseling, and in every single ATI family I knew when our children were still at home, what these parents were definitely NOT, is spiritually mature.
The spiritually mature do not look to someone to give them a list of quick fixes for the Christian life. The spiritually mature are mature BECAUSE they live in communion with Jesus Christ, seeking Him for guidance. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ because we abide in Him, not in things purportedly ABOUT Him. The spiritually mature know the scriptures: not just the favored verses that lay down a list for them to keep, or to hand out to others, but they know the heart of the scriptures, which makes them understand the heart of God. The spiritually mature can de facto recognize when a teacher is teaching a subtle or not-so-subtle twist of the scriptures into a new law system.
The more spiritually mature we are, the more we look like Jesus. Jesus said, "I am meek and lowly." Thus the spiritually mature are humble. But humility is often misunderstood to mean merely that we do not lean on our OWN understanding, but we're "humble" enough to trust some "expert" to tell us what to think about the scriptures, etc. But it is actually a sign of pride to think that we could even determine WHICH of the multitudinous self-appointed "experts" on the Christian life is the "right" one to follow. And most of us tend to follow the "expert" that we prefer based on our personality, or our fears, anyway.
Humility means not only not relying on ourselves as experts, it also means not even relying on ourselves as wise enough to determine the experts. The humility that gets God's grace is humility BEFORE GOD, not man, expert or not. We are to be disciples, or followers, of Christ, not of men, seeking God to guide us in this mysterious Christian life. While God gives us Christian community in part to sharpen and grow us (Eph 4), that community is never to supplant God as our guide. We are to be Bereans for ourselves, and take all to the scriptures, and to the Holy Spirit, for understanding.
So, to recapitulate, any parent who thought they would find Godliness by following a man is the quintessential model of a spiritually immature Christian.
For this reason, being angry at your parents for their spiritual immaturity during your formative years, is equivalent to them being mad at you for your spiritual immaturity during those years. A wise parent will take maturity level into account, and give loving grace to the child while he is learning. Likewise, a child who exhibits greater spiritual maturity than his or her parents did at their age is wise to give grace to the memory of their parents. First, because it is as the Father does to us. He is not tapping His foot impatiently while we grow in His image. And His grace is not given after we have gotten the right words said, in just the right way, with just the right attitude, but He is loving and kind, and ready to forgive and embrace. I'm not sure if you realize the irony of it, but your list of possible "right" things for parents to say in order to begin building the relationship back with their children is no different than the list they taught you under the Gothard system of law of "right" things for you to do and say to build relationship with them or Jesus.
And the second reason a child would be wise to give grace to the memory of his parents who were less spiritually mature than he feels himself to be at the same age, is that your greater maturity may well be BECAUSE you learned from your parents' mistakes. They probably learned from their own parents' mistakes, that the Dr. Spock leave-those-kids-alone type of child rearing that their parents likely did with them was part of why they had "more of life experience than they care to acknowledge". (Yes, they are ashamed, Rom 6:21).
Many of your parents have a great deal of pain, for they know they were wrong. And they know they were wrong because of the FRUIT of their choices: the bitterness and resentment of their children, and the strained relationships. And I'm not talking about abusers here, but I'm speaking of those of whom you said "We know that you were sincere in your efforts to raise godly children". They never imagined that what they were doing would cause the opposite effect of what was promised: that they would get children who ran from the church, and who ran from them. That is because, like their parents, they believed that the one who was doing the promising, whether Dr. Spock or Bill Gothard, was somehow able to deliver. Their failure was in not knowing God or man well enough to know that only God can deliver on His promises.
If parents still haven't matured to full understanding of grace even now, they may still not know exactly HOW they were wrong, and so they will not be able to articulate it. I find in counseling that parents who agree that Gothardism was wrong, but don't really want to talk about it, these are the parents that know by the fruit in their children and in their relationships that their choices were wrong, but they don't really know what the "right" choices would have looked like, because they still don't fully get grace, and being led of God.
That is, they are still not spiritually mature.
Spiritual adulthood in offspring is much like any other adulthood: the children begin their adult life with a leg up on their parents, BECAUSE their parents gave them the leg up. My children were better off financially than I was when I reached independence, and they are definitely better off than I was spiritually (I was not saved until I was in my late 30's). Rather than resentment of parental mistakes, forgiveness and even gratitude can take the sting of bitterness from the things the children suffered because of parental failure. (And I am not talking agreement with wrong thinking on the part of parents here. Neither forgiveness nor gratitude is equivalent to agreement.)
Each child who is the "victim" of his parents' failures (again, I'm not talking abuse here, though it applies, in a way) becomes a parent who fails his or her children, too. Because there are no other kinds of parents. Every parent fails. Jesus was the only human who did not "victimize" others, accidentally or deliberately. And He had no children.
Each of you will fail your children, and you'll do it while you are "sincere in your efforts to raise godly children", or if you've left Christ, having confused Him with the stuff taught in your homes about him, you'll fail your children in your sincere efforts to raise happy or successful or whatever children. If you were able somehow to briefly get perfect after failing them, you would say you are sorry with a heartfelt remorse each time. And you would say it with just the right words that could heal the hurt you inflicted. But since you cannot suddenly get perfect, I guarantee you that your children will reach their adulthood too, with unhealed wounds that you inflicted and did not heal with just the "right" words of grace.
What does grace look like in relationship with others? It looks like what you wanted when you were young: "I would have mercy and not sacrifice". Your parents were so busy doing what they thought was "sacrifice" for the Lord, they forgot to go and learn what this meant. Do not make the same mistake. If you withhold grace now because your parents haven't asked for it in the proper way, you will not know how to give it when your own children don't articulate their need for it in the proper way. Practice grace now with everyone you can, including your parents, and you'll make fewer of those same painful mistakes with your own children.
And your children will be even more spiritually and emotionally mature than you are at your age, because they will have learned what grace looks like from you. Thus will you break the line of spiritual sin passed down to you. And in your older years, you will have children who grant you grace over your failures of them. For you will have taught them how to do it.
If you are able to read about what grace looks like in family relationships of every sort, without resentment because it didn't happen that way in your family, I recommend the book, Families Where Grace is in Place, by Jeff VonderVan. It has helped more than one family I know whose relationships have been hurt by Gothardism (or other law systems) to grow and heal.
God's blessings of grace and mercy to you as you heal.
Thank you for taking the time to share all this. I've read over it a couple times and have some thoughts in agreement and just a little bit of pushback as well. Perhaps I'll leave a couple separate comments.
Overall, I appreciate your points and think we all do well to learn from them.
I believe you are saying that our parents were not operating from a place of great maturity but immaturity, which is why they were taken in by Gothard and Gothardism. That truth calls for our understanding and an extension of grace to them, as well as appreciation for their good intentions. I agree with that and think it's a significant insight.
Further, our parents may yet be less mature than we might wish, and even now may not have a good image of what grace in relationships really looks like. It's a privilege that perhaps we can be the ones who model that for them. It would not be helpful for us to set some high bar and insist that the parents say or do all the right things and take all the blame before we even begin to allow for a relationship.
In spite of their best intentions, things have not turned out so well. This is a source of pain for them and it merits our care and concern. Beyond this, there are good things as well - things for which we can be grateful and express our appreciation to our parents.
I like this: "Practice grace now with everyone you can, including your parents, and you’ll make fewer of those same painful mistakes with your own children." Our parents may be currently some of the hardest folks on which to practice grace. Perhaps if we take that challenge, we will do better in time with our own kids. I can certainly feel this - I am the parent of a teen myself. It's actually been pretty smooth sailing so far but I can totally anticipate that we will all have chances to practice grace on our children and they in return will have chances to practice back on us :-)
To close this comment, I like this statement and very much agree: "The spiritually mature do not look to someone to give them a list of quick fixes for the Christian life. The spiritually mature are mature BECAUSE they live in communion with Jesus Christ, seeking Him for guidance. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ because we abide in Him, not in things purportedly ABOUT Him." Indeed, our Christian life is a process of growth and fruit, not of hitting a switch. It is about communion with and abiding in Christ (and walking in the Spirit), who is the source of our life.
Matthew, I take it that you are a “moderator” of sorts for the website. I have seen your comments at other places on RecoveringGrace, and have noted your ability to more concisely articulate what others have said. You have done that here with my over-long comment, and I appreciate your skill in clarification.
One thing I want to (hopefully briefly) clarify relates to your comment, “Our parents may be currently some of the hardest folks on which to practice grace.”
RecoveringGrace is a website of many contributors, and some of them have been far more harmed by their parents as they followed Bill Gothard’s teachings than others. One thing I have seen in several counseling situations is the oppressor who used Gothardism to justify his oppression.
These men (mostly) who did so were oppressors before they learned of Mr. Gothard, before they learned of homeschooling even, and in more than one situation before children or even the marriage.
In fact, the reason they embraced these teachings was because they gave these oppressors a handy tool to gain, or keep, control over others.
It is a sad and anger-making truth that in this very fallen world, there are what the psychiatric community calls psychopaths and sociopaths. I have read more than one testimony on RecoveringGrace which clearly indicates that some of these families were dominated by such.
These parents are indeed the “hardest folks on which to practice grace.”
I want to say that my prior post did not refer to these situations.
In these situations, adult children of such must recognize their parent(s) for what they are, and accept that there may never be a healthy relationship, or even a reconciliation of sorts. The sociopath and the psychopath are far beyond the normal level of narcissism that we fallen self-lovers struggle against. They do not struggle against self. They won’t. Ever. Except by the life-shattering grace of God.
In these cases, the child can no longer look to the parent for relationship. The child must change their view of the parent from relational to missional. These parents, until and unless the Holy Spirit regenerates them, must be treated as mission field. Some of them are so toxic, that they must be treated as if they are cannibalistic mission field, a la Peace Child from Don Richardson. That is, we speak truth to them when if are in their company, in keeping with 1 Tim 2:25, but we do not get alone with them, and we certainly never allow our children to be alone with them, until we see the fruit of the Spirit in them: love, joy, peace, etc. And certainly repentance, too.
Nor do we take their assessment of us as valid, because as unregenerate, they have no valid point of reference to evaluate us. Wisdom is not found in the unregenerate.
In some of these cases, the only grace that can be given is to pray for their salvation, that they may be rescued from themselves and from the snare they are trapped in. We must pray that my statement from two paragraphs ago, that they will never struggle against themselves, will be superseded by the grace and mighty power of God. That He will do to them what He did to the oppressive and murderous Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus. This is how we continue to practice grace and honoring toward our parents when they are too toxic to even be in relationship with. We commit them to the loving hand of our Rescuer, pleading with Him, until their death if need be, that He would be their Rescuer too.
And in answer to your most recent comment, I have no website. By lay counselor, I mean that I do it without remuneration, and without title, and only as the Lord leads folks to me, not in any official capacity. I do have a blog, two actually. One is older, and sort of a personal chronicle of my growth in the Lord through about 7 years, including the last year or two of homeschooling. The other is more recent, but it only peripherally reflects things I've seen in counseling. If you would like a link to either/both, to help you in "checking me out" in your administrative capacity for the RecoveringGrace site, send me an email, and I'll send you links. I'm not offended by that at all, but they are nothing special :).
While I am involved somewhat with the RG team, my role in these comments here is just as a personal commenter, even if an over-active one. I don't mean to obscure my role but I don't function as an official spokesperson for them. Thanks for the kudos. I tend to be overly wordy so any compliments about conscision are quite welcome! I have been deeply impacted by some folks who are good at encouraging dialogue and a conversational tone, which requires hearing the other person. I appreciate that the tone here at RG overall encourages dialogue.
You are hitting in this comment on the very thing for which I was struggling to compose a response. Some people think that the line of abusers vs. non-abusers was a clean line but unfortunately, like the line of good and evil, it tends to run through each human heart.
Your word "oppressive" is right on. Indeed, many of us would describe out parents as oppressive. I could give many examples. Such parents are well described by Powlison's phrase "fog of confusion and evasion." (http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=412)
In my own family growing up, many people saw the nice image and did not realize what a yawning gulf existed between public image and private reality. In public, my dad was a "spiritual" man who commanded a lot of respect. In private, he remains an angry, controlling, vindictive man without any lasting deep relationships. Of course, if you were to talk to him, you would think he is just a nice guy who has been repeatedly victimized. But you would be hearing only his very slanted version of events. There are reasons why he was eventually asked to step down as an elder in the church I grew up in, and why he left church after church, and has ended almost all of his friendships in angry explosions. But still today, very few people believe even the little bit I have tried to say. They want to believe the public image is for real.
I'm nearly 40 and I have a family of my own. I try to reach out to my dad who is mostly too bitter to speak to me (again, he would tell it differently). It is incumbent on me to show him grace as best I can, through God's strength. And frankly, your image is quite apt, and one I had not thought of before: reaching out to a cannibal. Ha! sometimes it feels like that!
But I've been on my own for a long time. Think about the girl who is in her mid-twenties and whose parents won't let her date or get a job. They sit in the seat of Moses and use a smattering of verses plus the chain of command and the hammer and chisel diagram to speak for God and to tell her that anything besides washing their dishes and babysitting their younger kids is rebellion. Literally, any move she makes towards responsibility for herself and her future will be labeled as rebellion, and the parents may shun her while they threaten her that Satan will attack her if she gets a job or moves out. The people at her church think it's a big happy family and have no insight into how much she is dying inside. And this scenario is going right now, and in many homes. The sad fact is that her church is probably going to follow the parents' lead and shake their heads sadly that she is "lost" if she decides to date, get a job, or move into her own apartment.
The head-trip for a person in those shoes is that they *feel* like they are being rebellious and sinful. And their family and parents accuse them of it, and then when they turn to their church for support, it's just more accusations.
While the underlying reality is that the parents are narcissistic and are in fact abusive, the outward appearance is that they are dedicated, loving parents. Fog of confusion and evasion. And their church is not likely to see beneath the surface. There may not be any physical violence going on but the soul is being attacked with words and emotions. And, quite unfortunately, the soul is also being attacked with twisted Scriptures in the name of God.
So what's my point... I'm partly trying to say it's not equitable between parent and child. It's not like we can just say to all students, "well, you are the mature one so you need to be nice to your parents" (and you weren't saying that, Blest, I'm not accusing you of saying that). It's a very helpful corrective for those of us who feel like we are going crazy sometimes to be able to vent and say, boy, I wish my parents would just say they care, or whatever. For these grown children, the Boundaries book usually resonates (and I've heard high praise for the book that you recommended as well, Families Where Grace Is in Place).
I didn't help make that one any more concise at all! But this is the case that I was wanting to point out, and which you came back and named as well.
I really do love that image of the cannibals. No matter how bad someone else is, we still live out "grace and truth" and "truth in love". We don't deny them grace but neither do we need to deny the truth of the situation. And again as you said, as we practice appropriate expressions of grace even to the most difficult parents, we really do benefit ourselves later down the line when we need the practice in dealing with our own kids.
These men (mostly) who did so were oppressors before they learned of Mr. Gothard, before they learned of homeschooling even, and in more than one situation before children or even the marriage.
That was indeed the case for my family. In my home growing up, it was certainly my dad that was the strong and controlling personality and I had assumed all ATI families were so. But I have been intrigued to learn in the past few years how many people's experience was the mirror image, with the mom being the strong one and the dad being passive (or more likely passive-aggressive). In those homes, the mom might get a lot of mileage out of the teachings about the "cautions in the wife's spirit."
Thank you, Blest! My parents are the ones who really did do their best. And made huge improvements on the previous generation. They have given grace, and I have given it in return. As such, we do communicate and have built a good relationship with them respecting me as an adult.
But I have seen the situation you just described above, and it always bothers me when people don't make the distinction between the two. Thank you for stating that distinction so clearly!
The abuses of the "cautions" of a wife caused problems in our relationsip. I would be seriously worried about something and it was hard for my husband to see that it was genuine and not manipulation. Thankfully, we've worked through that. :-)
I can definitely say that my parents were not emotionally mature. They were looking for something to guide them, and lo, a prophet appeared!
So, Blest, in reading and re-reading your comment, I think I am confused with what you perceive it would look like, if we showed grace to our parents.
In my life, to date, it has meant recognizing that no parent is perfect.
Recognizing that they really did want what was best for me, however misguided.
Recognizing the role that childhood abuse played in their own lives and subsequent parenting.
It means I allow them to have an ongoing relationship with me, as long as they are respectful of me.
For me, extending grace to my family means that I use a pseudonym when I tell my stories, here; to protect both the innocent and the guilty.
It doesn't mean I've decided that what they did doesn't matter, doesn't have far-reaching consequences, doesn't still cause pain, and it doesn't mean that I don't set appropriate boundaries with them, or that I don't want them to understand my perspective. Or that I don't tell my stories to warn others.
Hannah, I couldn't agree with you more. Extending grace does NOT mean that what happened to you "doesn't matter, doesn't have far-reaching consequences, doesn't still cause pain, and it doesn't mean that I don't set appropriate boundaries with them, or that I don't want them to understand my perspective. Or that I don't tell my stories to warn others."
Your description of your relationship with your parents sounds very healthy, as healthy as can be, perhaps, under the circumstances. And I believe it is a very good picture of what extending grace to your parents looks like. When you stand strong to maintain the integrity of your own identity, while recognizing and having compassion for the wounds in your parents' souls that have impacted their identity, you have found the balance that heals.
Christ had compassion for those who harmed him (Father, forgive them), but He did not let Himself be bulldozed into believing what they said about Him. Yes, He let them kill Him, but that was in obedience to His clear mission from the Father. But on the way to the cross, He didn't allow the comments of those who couldn't recognize Him to sink into His soul and define Him. He was not a child of the devil, a drunkard, illegitimate, or any of the other things they tried to hang on Him. If He'd believed any of those things, it would've sidelined His mission to seek and save that which was lost.
I said in my comment "Nor do we take their assessment of us as valid, because as unregenerate, they have no valid point of reference to evaluate us. Wisdom is not found in the unregenerate." Not every parent that followed Mr. Gothard is unregenerate of course. But to the extent that they believed the lie that God gives grace to the good enough, to that extent their assessment of you or of themselves even, is compromised.
If your parents have a history of their abuse from their own childhoods, I really respect your decision not to heap further shame on them by making your comments under a pseudonym. I do believe it is important to warn others, and biblical. But you have not rendered railing for railing (1 Pet 3:9), but have rendered contrariwise a blessing. God bless you for that, Hannah.
And I don't mean to imply that those who have chosen not to post under a pseudonym on this site have somehow been automatically wrong. Sometimes "the innocent and the guilty" should not be protected. Each person has to make their own decision, based on their own circumstances. Paul had no compunction about naming names at times (think Hymenetas and Alexander, for example).
Exactly! I have many friends who post on this site, under both real names and pseudonyms, which I see is a good thing--Not only for their families and parents' sake, but also because of our personal history with Gothard. He (and/or his staff) read this site fairly regularly, and, on occasion, I've heard that he has tried to personally identify and call people out (aka intimidate them) for speaking out against him. It's not always a physically or emotionally safe thing to use a real name, especially when you're dealing with a spiritual leader with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which is glaringly obvious, even to the untrained eye).
Well, I suppose we are all at different points in our journey, and will all have the ability or not to show grace or not, in different ways at different points in our journeys. I guess it will look different for each person. I do believe the overall goal for most of us, is to find a balance of grace and truth. Not always easy to do.
It is indeed not easy. I had a prof who said that there was only ever one person who was full of grace and truth, and that was Jesus. We will do our best but we aren't him.
One part that's hard for me is when parents take revenge on their kids, *in the name of God*, for speaking the truth. I find it almost impossible sometimes to even want to show grace to someone who has attacked me for finally finding the courage to simply speak truth. And I'm not talking about yelling the truth from the housetops in an attempt to hurt someone, I'm talking about choosing to no longer live in that self-induced insanity of the can't-talk rule and pretending everything is OK when it isn't. I can breathe a sigh of relief when I remind myself that I can reject their narrative that they are speaking for God (which is telling myself the truth about them). They are not representing God when they are defending or covering up abuse and I don't have to "surrender my rights" and "submit" and agree against all common sense that they are telling the truth, when I have the (metaphorical) scars to prove they are not. I think grace and truth work together so well in that truth provides the right framework for showing grace, and grace provides the right focus in telling the truth. Take away truth and you start to have coverups instead of grace; take away grace and you start to use truth vindictively.
Short version: I don't have to deny the truth to show grace; in fact, telling the truth is an important part of showing grace.
By the way, do you have a blog or other web site? Always interested in seeing what counselors who deal with this stuff are blogging about.
Thank you Blest, for not attacking or accusing us with twisted Scriptures. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that, and your comments certainly did open my eyes to another perspective. I would say that overall in my case, I do honor my parents on a general basis in my heart (even if they don't want to see it that way). Occasionally they sure make it difficult, and from your comments I see that they really are incredibly immature. It takes a real immaturity to say, 'you don't agree with me, therefore you are rebellious', and I would say it takes the sin/evil that is in the heart of man to deliberately twist a Scripture and pull some bizarre meaning out of your behind, in order to prove your point. (As I have seen done on RG, and in my personal life.) I love the dialogue between you and Matthew, please continue to comment. I love to hear 'words seasoned with salt'.
Wow! Matthew and Blest. What a conversation! These comments articulate some of my thoughts that I have wanted to share. As an X-ATI Mom, I would like to share some other ideas as well. We joined ATI when I was about 30. I had been a Christian for about 20 years growing about as fast as I could, loving and serving the Lord and feeding on the milk and meat of the scripture. ( I did have to spend some time undoing the false philosophies learned in highschool: Darwinism, socialism,etc.) I don't doubt that I was less mature than I am today, but what defines spiritual maturity? When we started ATI it was because of the wealth of "factual" material in the wisdom booklets not because a man gave us a list of do's and don't's. I had been introduced to IBLP by more mature people in my church. Most of them had two children, sent their kids to public school, listened to rock music, wore pants and sometimes shorts to church, and reached out to a hurting world. Yet, they said we young Christians could benefit from IBLP. The benefits were learning to be prompt, helping your boss, being responsible for your thoughts and actions, and having proper dating relationships. We had seen the results of our parents using Dr. Spocks ideas. I think they didn't correct their kids sometimes when they thought they should, because of what they were taught. In the same way I believe a number of parents who used Bill's ideas were not naturally oppressors but thought they had to go against their common sense to follow God's way of parenting. I did see this in people that I knew in the ATI program. Matthew, I am sorry about your relationship with your dad. My father is 80 and is just beginning to admit some of the errors he made. I am not sure how clear my rambling is but hope you find it helpful. As a mom, I hope you all find healing and reconciliation.
Thank you, Lynn. I suspect you are quite correct that "a number of parents who used Bill’s ideas were not naturally oppressors but thought they had to go against their common sense to follow God’s way of parenting." And it's only fair to acknowledge that even the best parents make mistakes, and if they (and now we) don't make one mistake it is likely to be another.
It's an interesting juxtaposition, Dr. Spock vs. Bill Gothard, and I think there's something to it, particularly in the reaction from one generation to the next and one extreme to the other.
It's encouraging to hear that your dad still working at it, even at 80. Blessing to him! And may he have many years yet to enjoy his wonderful family.
Lynn, I don’t want to make it sound like I think every child of ATI practicing parents was damaged spiritually. I know and respect some parents today who used some of ATI’s materials with their children.
But these parents were already spiritually strong in the Lord when they began. They were not using it for their own ends, nor were they using it and innocently trusting that it was okay because other folks they trusted said it was, but they used Mr. Gothard’s materials as they felt led of the Lord to.
And THIS is what defines “spiritual maturity”.
In my first post, I said “The spiritually mature are mature BECAUSE they live in communion with Jesus Christ, seeking Him for guidance.” We become like those we spend time with, which is why we notice that couples who have been married many years look and act in ways similar to one another. Likewise, when we live in communion with Christ, seeking Him for guidance of our lives, we become like Him, and He is certainly the perfect model of Christian maturity.
I’m not fond of Mr. Gothard’s teachings on parenting, and a few of the favored “parenting experts” that he advocates for are also not my favorites. Thus in recommending or giving books on parenting, I don’t choose these. But even with books that I think ARE more biblically sound (such as Grace Based Parenting and Sacred Parenting), I give those books with that same caveat: read it, yes, but.take.what.you.see.in.here.to.God. Ask Him to give you wisdom as you read, and to not allow your preferences, your wounds, your fears, or your sinful nature be your guide. And ask Him to prevent you from being unwittingly swayed by the preferences, wounds, fears, or sinful nature of the author of the book, for these will inhabit his or her writing. Ask Him to show you the gems, and cause your mind to miss the plastic beads.
This is what it means to “live in communion with Jesus Christ, seeking Him for guidance.” It’s not reading other books by other people who tell us what God said, no matter how worthy or accurate. Communion with Jesus Christ means going to the Author of the Book in which He reveals Himself. And it means spending time with Him in prayer about everything. So often, we read the Bible, and other Christian works, looking for the nuggets of wisdom to raise our children, to do our finances, to relate to our spouses, etc., in God-honoring ways. But unless we seek God Himself while we read it, we are only using the Bible as a self-help book. Yes, we learn of Him most fully in that One Book, the Bible, more than any other book. But even that Book must have Christ’s Spirit illuminate its pages to us (John 16:13). Many folks think that because they are saved and have the Holy Spirit, in combination perhaps with their linguistic abilities, they will automatically understand God’s intent in the scriptures. But I think such underestimate the capabilities of their hearts to slide away from God to their own will and preferences. And they underestimate God’s desire to be the director of EVERY part of their walk, including their understanding of the Bible.
I know that many children of ATI got to adulthood without abuse. But I do see that some of them think they are of greater spiritual stature than they actually are. They know the scriptures, but they don’t necessarily understand their meaning. As Heather said here, it is very possible to twist the scriptures. Some do it accidentally. Some do it deliberately. And some just swallow the scriptures that others have twisted, not realizing they are subtly twisted.
Small amounts of many poisons can be physically tolerated without death to a human. Yes, over time, the person’s health will begin to fail, but it will be slow, with symptoms in one organ system, then another. We will see the doctor for our racing heart and get a pill, then later see the doctor for digestive problems and get a CT scan, then later see the doctor for a blood clot.
I think more folks have swallowed twisted scriptures than realize it. For instance, I cannot begin to say how pervasive I find a works gospel to be, even in even non-IBLP Christians. Everyone agrees that salvation is by gift alone, but very few actually live as if they believe it. Over time, these twisted scriptures create small troubles, which build up into greater ones. (Middle age is often a time for aggregated small doses of spiritual poison to catch up to us, much the same as it is for physical poisons.) But unless those twisted scriptures are served with the DEADLY poison of abuse, they are often not vomited up.
The extreme reactions of some of the children of ATI to their upbringing is a form of vomiting. The abuse may have been at home from an oppressor. Or it may have been at the Institute, and the parents did not protect their children when they heard about it, instead defending their decisions, or instead defending the “savior” who had brought them the teachings that would rescue their families from the debaucheries of the culture. Perhaps, having swallowed the twisted scriptures themselves, they did not even recognize the situation as abuse (spiritual abuse can be hard to unmask, especially by those who don’t grasp the heart of the scriptures and the Lord who wrote them).
But here is a thought of God’s goodness: in some ways, those who have vomited the poison up are better off than those who live more drama-free lives, but are slowly dying. It could give new meaning to “God gives beauty for ashes” for these children. But these children must now seek out the healthy food, and they must take therapeutic doses of the spiritual vitamins. For their spiritual selves are sick and drawn from all those years of consuming the poisons. It is not enough to sweep the poison from the dinner table. We must set it with the nourishing, health-and-life giving love and truth of God.
So sorry for writing a book, Lynn. :) But I do want to clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that every ATI parent used it for selfish purposes, nor do I want to imply that I think every ATI parent was spiritually immature. Not everyone who used it was looking for a list of do’s and don’ts to follow. Some were, indeed, using it as a springboard to communion with their Savior.
If I can brush past your "shoulds" and "musts" or *your* to-do lists, since everyone has their lists to replace the obviously flawed ones (plz read < with a tad bit of sarcasm), I honestly see your kindness. And I want to thank you for your perspective on what you call "extreme reactions".
To borrow your analogy, the pain of needing to vomit out a poison is not a pleasant one... Some would rather not vomit, see the vomit, or even see the pain. They would rather ignore it, but for those of us with toxic levels, it has to come out...
Thank you.
Lissa, I didn't mean the word "extreme reaction" in a negative way, as if the intensity of the reaction were unjustified, and I apologize for not using less "loaded" words. I meant it comparatively, in the sense of how things are perceived. I should have perhaps said "the seemingly extreme reaction". The reaction will SEEM extreme to the family who has one or two children who break free in strong ways, while others stay and try to "work within the system."
And the church they attend may also perceive the reaction at "extreme", and react as MatthewS referenced above with the unfortunately not-hypothetical mid-twenties girl: the church will "follow the parents' lead and shake their heads sadly that she is 'lost' if she decides to date, get a job, or move into her own apartment."
That is, because the children (and sometimes one spouse), have been taught for so long that godliness or submission required a pretense of peaceful unity in public (in the name of "loyalty" or fearing to be in "rebellion/witchcraft"), when the child desires such normal, adult things as interaction with the opposite sex (not talking sin here, and most of these children don't want their "interaction" with the opposite sex to be sin anyway), or getting a job, or getting their own apartment, all too often they must "break" free, rather than being "set" free. And since the birds have been kept placidly in the cage so for long, it looks to the church also like an "extreme" reaction when one of them darts out the cage door and squawks that they don't want to go back in. Especially if the church is filled with folks who also are busy with their own pretenses of liking it in the cage.
It makes you wonder if some of the reaction in other families isn't hidden envy, because they'd like the chance to live a real, unhidden life, but they don't have the courage to risk what you and others have: big conflict from many quarters. Because they've seen the price that some of you have paid has itself been rather extreme itself, they choose the more passive way, the way that I termed above "drama-free".
And that's another ill-considered, loaded term, I'm afraid, and I apologize for that one too, Lissa. I meant that term comparatively too, in the way that folks who were on-lookers might perceive things. But though the seemingly drama-free way may have less intense relational conflict, like I said before, it can definitely have intense effects on the relationship with Christ. That is because the slow death of living a veiled relationship with God, one that is forever mediated by your parents/spouse/pastor/Mr. Gothard, will slowly kill your soul. Because it keeps you from learning to do your own personal abiding in the only One who gives life.
Anyway, I don't mean to make lists, and I think your comment, "everyone has their lists to replace the obviously flawed ones", is insightful. You're right: I'm not different from other folks. I just mean to say that the only "to do" I think there is, is to hold on fast to the One who is the Doer. My words have been a description of what that looks like for me, and I hope I didn't make it sound like mine is THE way to do it. I know it looks differently for you, and for others.
And you are right, Lissa. When you're very sick, the poison must come up. I am praying that you can sense the real presence of our Christ who wants to wipe your forehead with a cool cloth while it does.
I'm loving your evocative images, Blest!
I think the vomit metaphor is spot on. The idea of Jesus ministering to the sick person with a cold cloth... beautiful! Because many of us were raised to mentally see Jesus angry and disgusted with us when we are sick and down and out. whew... deep breath... moving along now... That's a really touching image.
"That is because the slow death of living a veiled relationship with God, one that is forever mediated by your parents/spouse/pastor/Mr. Gothard, will slowly kill your soul. Because it keeps you from learning to do your own personal abiding in the only One who gives life."
Yes! That is absolutely spot on! Even though this is my first chance to respond, I've really appreciated many of the thoughts you've been sharing, Blest. And your word pictures are perfect for our experiences. Thanks for sharing so much!
That really is good.
"Because it keeps you from learning to do your own personal abiding in the only One who gives life."
I was talking to a friend the other day about people recovering from addiction. We were talking about how it's tempting for all of us to get all caught up in learning about spiritual formation or spiritual development but to avoid actually *doing* it. There are countless ways for us to get sidetracked from doing our "own personal abiding in the only One who gives life", all of them to great loss.
Lynn, I just reread my first post, and realized that I said this: "But I can say unequivocally that in every.single.instance.of.counseling, and in every single ATI family I knew when our children were still at home, what these parents were definitely NOT, is spiritually mature."
Sheesh. I did say that.
It is true that in every instance of counseling with former ATI parents I have done, the parents were not maturely seeking God for wisdom and guidance as they were using Mr. Gothard's materials.
Yet, as my own earlier post to you said, there WERE some ATI parents who treated the materials in the same way they treated other materials: sources of learning points with the Lord. They took the time to compare things with the scriptures, and served the meat, but discarded the bones. As I was writing the earlier reply to you above, I was thinking of two families in particular, but they had not come to mind when I was writing my first post here, so I made that hasty generalization. I've tried to think of others, but these two families are the only two I can think of that I would say were being strongly and directly led by the Lord. (And my knowledge is second-hand -- I didn't know them when they first began using the materials, but I'm basing my assumption on conversations I've had with them, and knowledge of where they and their families are with the Lord today.) Anyway, I just wanted to correct my clear contradiction of myself. I'm sorry for being confusing.
Blest, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your help to those hurting families. May God continue to bless your work.
Blest,
I have been following this exchange for a while and what you said in your last post brought tears to my eyes.
"When you're very sick, the poison must come up. I am praying that you can sense the real presence of our Christ who wants to wipe your forehead with a cool cloth while it does."
That presence of Christ is completely missing in a works based religion. There is a presence but it is a demanding, controlling, vindictive God. Not one who really cares if we are poisoned. That is a really hard image to walk away from. I like your Christ. I am trying to find that one. Too often the words that we remember are the harsh comments from people we respected and who we thought cared about us. It is all too hurtful when it is our own parents. Fortunately, I do not have that problem. The comments that are designed to hurt and put us in our place from others I have experienced. It is hard to block those voices out and keep moving forward when those words are the ones that haunt you.
Thank you for your kind words and a beautiful picture that gives me hope that I can find a kind, good God.
I appreciate all your kind comments, but I cannot tell you all how much your grief grieves my heart. But more than that, I wish I could articulate how much it grieves the heart of Christ, in the true sense of grief, in the sense of mourning, not in the sense of making Him unhappy with you.
Your parents and spiritual teachers may have pointed you to a false Christ. He may not be who they said He was.
This is the Christ that is real: "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young." (Isa 40:11). The "Christ" that your parents were sold was NOT the real Christ if they were not led gently as they raised you while you were young. If they were driven by fear, and thereby drove you, then they were not being fed by The Shepherd, but by a hireling (John 10:11-13). Because the real Shepherd does not guide with a spirit of fear (2 Tim 1:7).
The image of God has been twisted by favored verses from those who would be lords over Christ's inheritance instead of the shepherds they were called to be (1 Pet 5:2-3). But this is the REAL image of the REAL God: you are adopted sons and daughters of a King! And He's not a tyrant! He's a gentle, loving Father, who adores His kids!
The scriptures are filled with God likening Himself to a father. A father who never leaves us. This is the real God: "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up." (Psalm 127:1)
A little of my personal history may be helpful here. I grew up in a series of foster homes, the last one being an institutional orphanage. By the end of my time in these homes, my dad had died, but I was placed into the first of these homes at 7 years old by my own mom, with my dad's acquiescence, if not approval. She took us to Social Services; they didn't come get us.
That is, "my mother and father forsook me". Physically and emotionally (we had no religion, so I cannot say spiritually). Likewise, many of you were forsaken by your mothers and fathers, perhaps not physically, but emotionally and spiritually, for various reasons.
The language of adoption that is found so often in the bible helps us understand what the real God is like. When I was in the orphanage, the biggest dream of most of us kids was that we would be adopted out, or at least placed with a family. But we were older kids, which was why we were in this facility in the first place. Many of the kids were like me: their parents were alive, but unwilling or incapable of caring for them. But it was the 60's, and folks were afraid of teenagers, so as kids aged in the foster care system, many of them ended up in institutions like this. Anyway, because we were older, we had little hope of being adopted out, but it was a dream none-the-less.
Imagine for a moment with me: a very rich man comes to the orphanage, and wants to adopt all of the children, take them home to live with them, and give them the love and care they didn't get in the orphanage. (Things like mopping their brow when they are vomiting.) Some of the kids don't want to come. Those are mostly the kids that were on the top of the pile in the orphanage, who had a certain power and glory of their own there. They don't want to come to live with the man, because they would just be another kid, and not allowed to be king of the hill there. But the kids that do come to live with the man, how does he treat them?
If he was an earthly father, he might have his own reasons for adopting all those kids: slave labor, tax deductions, restoring a tarnished reputation, or building a reputation as a good man, etc. But our heavenly Father didn't adopt any of us for any reason except His love for us. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us... That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:5-7) ACCORDING TO HIS GREAT MERCY...WE ARE MADE HEIRS. That is the only reason He adopts us. His great mercy.
When your parents and ATI taught you that "God honors those who honor Him", and other such stuff, they taught you that in order to get grace from God, you had to be "obedient". Of course this was defined by them, but laying that aside a moment, is the statement even true? I mean, is obedience what gets God's favor? Don't get me wrong, I am not an antinomianist. But I don't believe we make ourselves obedient. Romans 5:8 says "while we were yet sinners" we got grace. John 3:16 is God so loved the world, not the obedient. Christ told the pharisees that He came to heal the sick, and they that be whole don't need a physician.
No, we don’t get grace after we are obedient. We need grace to BE obedient.
Taking that idea back to the adoption analogy, as an adopted child of the King, is this Father now going to expect you to straighten yourself up, and stop the cursing and stealing and bullying of each other you learned in the orphanage, etc., or else He's sending you back or beating you? No, HE will help you stop the sins you learned, and He won't start with the rod, because He looks on us and has compassion for us! He knows our frame, and remembers we are dust! And there’s a “mom” figure of sorts in this picture of God, too, and that is the Holy Spirit. This “mom” comforts (John 14:18), and teaches you about your new home, bringing to your remembrance what your Dad has said (John 14:26). She talks to your new Dad about the things that are bothering you, because you don’t know how to even talk about some things (Rom 8:26). She makes a home filled with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Gal 5:22-23), and she teaches you to live that way too.
When your Dad finds the ants all over the pile of food you hoarded in your room, He doesn’t berate you or beat you, because He has compassion for the fear you learned in the orphanage. He helps you clean it up, and slowly, under the loving care of your new Father you learn to not be afraid anymore.
And unlike your earthly mom and dad, He will never leave you nor forsake you, even if you take a long time to stop saying those bad words or stealing or whatever. He won't love you less, He won't take care of you less, He won’t provide for you less, He won't show you less compassion. If it takes you a long time, you may not get as much responsibility as quickly as some of the other kids, but His love and care for you will not diminish. He is not like the adoptive mom of the Russian boy in the news a few months ago who sent the boy back because he wasn't easy to raise/didn't respond to her love the way she wanted, or whatever. We all felt it viscerally, how wrong that was of her. If it was wrong of her, will the God of Heaven who can only do right, will He do that? (Gen 18:25b)
The verses above from Titus say “not by works of righteousness which we have done”. Sadly, that is not the gospel you all learned. But think of the word “gospel”. It means “good news”. Is it good news that now that you are adopted, you have an always-unhappy-with-you dad, who watches you constantly for any sign of sin, so he can bonk you like the whack-a-mole game at the county fair? It makes us want to keep our head down with God, which sadly drives us from relationship with Him. It is a device of the devil.
The same merciful, loving grace that saves in the first place, sanctifies in the second place (Gal 3:3). It is God that works in us the desire, and the ability, to do good (Phil 2:13, Heb 13:20-21), and He will keep doing it until it is fully worked in us, no matter how long it takes, which in truth will be all the way up until the day we see Him face to face (Phil 1:6). And like a good father, He is pleased with us, His children, and speaks hope into our hearts when we fail Him, because He KNOWS we are going to grow up and stop spilling our milk one day.
Oh, Grace, Lissa, all of you, I pray that you will keep persevering after Him until you know how He loves you all. Read it for yourselves in Romans 8:38-39 and 1 John 3:1 and Eph 3:17-19 and Eph 2:4-6. I pray for you all, that you can overcome and heal from all the heart crushing lies you’ve heard. The Lord came to bind up the brokenhearted and set free those who have been bruised (Isa 61:1, Luke 4:19) and He desires to do that with every one of you. Perhaps as you heal, you’ll be able to carry the real gospel, the gospel that IS good news, back to those who raised you. For they may not have heard it themselves.
(And if you have the wherewithal, I recommend that you get The Kingdom Trilogy by David and Karen Mains, or even just the first one if you can. They are children’s books, but I wept through them myself as I read them aloud to my children. It is good and healing to cry, over what was lost, and over what can now be gained.)
Blest,
Once again, I can't tell you enough how your articulating of these thoughts about the true nature of Jesus warms my heart. In my own personal journey, it's taken me so long to get to this point where I realize what I was taught in the Institute was not the real Christ and the real God. While there is an over-abundance of head knowledge (and extremely faulty head-knowledge at that), there is no substitute for getting to know the heart of God and seeing Jesus as a tender Shepherd of His sheep--one who leads us beside still waters, and makes us stop and rest when we are weary, not works us like a slave for His Kingdom and his own glory. Living in the Institute facilities, we were taught (by implication if not directly) that God wanted us to give 110% of our time, energy and emotions to Him (via the Institute's ministry, of course) and any time we had left over we could spend on ourselves to rest or recreate (which was nothing). We were always to be do, do, doing... no matter how weary or exhausted we were. That was never an excuse. And so I naturally learned that God was more interested in what I could do for Him, and He cared nothing for who I was or how weary I was becoming--not just physically, but spiritually. God was like a giant vacuum, consuming all of my resources, draining me down until I had nothing left to give. But that's okay, because our God is a consuming fire, right? So many Scripture verses could be used to explain how this was a GOOD pouring out of myself for God and the Kingdom. But inside my heart was slowly dying a little bit more each day.
I distinctly remember one point where I was at my lowest. I was living at the Indy Training Center in the middle of my year of EQUIP 1. We were all in the hallway, doing our mandatory quiet times, and I felt filled with such emotional/spiritual despair. I knew I was a believer, but I felt that all my prayers were just hitting the ceiling. Everyone else around me looked like they were filled with the joy of the Lord and were doing GREAT spiritually, and while I'm sure I looked that way to everyone else (we were trained to appear that way!), I knew I was dying inside. In that moment I wondered if this was at good as it would ever get. I hated it--I was so empty and joyless (not to mention exhausted), and I had nothing left to give. I didn't want this to be all there was to the Christian walk, but we were told (or it was implied) that we were the spiritual elite, and I didn't know anything else or how to find this joy that everyone else seemed to have. I prayed desperately that this was not all there was to the Christian life. Soon after that time someone gave me a book on grace, I started reading it and my eyes were opened; When my year of service was up, I left the Institute and never looked back.
But even in my years following that leaving (it's been 16 years now?!), I've struggled to break a lot of the wrong views of God that shaped my formative years. One of the defining moments after my understanding of grace, was the moment I realized that Jesus weeps with me and for me, and that his love is not one devoid of intense emotion, such as love and even anger for wrongs done in His name against me. He is not the slave driver I once imagined Him, but the one who constantly asks, "Are you weary? Sit down and rest! Let me serve you, and give you the rest you so desperately need." I find Him to be more concerned about taking care of me and serving my heart, than about what I am able to do for Him. In fact, He doesn't really care what I can do for Him--He doesn't need me to serve Him. But amazingly, as I feel loved and cared for by Him, of course I want to serve Him, too. But now I realize it's purely out of love, and not slavish obligation or guilt.
In fact, the more I understand the heart of Jesus, the more convinced I become that teaching someone to do great things for God is actually more detrimental to our spiritual and emotional health (in fact, it's outright evil) if it's not first rooted in a deep love for Jesus and knowing how gentle and compassionate He is towards us personally, and how much He loves to care for us and serve us in our weakness (which is always there). God doesn't need or even want our service until we know how deeply and personally we are loved by Him. And then whatever our service is to Him, He wants it to be 100% our choice--something that springs out of desire and gratitude, not a sense of duty.
I am grateful that Jesus is my Shepherd, my friend, and the love of my soul. There are many who come in His name and claim to represent Him, but by their actions, they demonstrate that they truly know nothing about Him. To balk against their false authority and demands is not to balk against Him. He is right there with us, in the midst of our angst and pain, and He will be our Defender!
"Come unto me all ye that are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest"
These are not the words of who "works us like a slave for His Kingdom and his own glory".
You are so right, Beverly. God doesn't need our service at all. And He can hardly use our service until we have discovered that it is He that gives us our righteousness, not we ourselves. This is the core of the gospel, that "not by works of righteousness which we have done" but by the one Work of righteousness that *He* did.
I am glad for your healing heart, Beverly!
Beverly... Why were you doing quiet time in the hallway?? Bad enough that it was mandatory, but why in the hallway?!
I identify with your statement, "I prayed desperately that this was not all there was to the Christian life." How well I remember coming to the point of saying, "If what I have, this pitiful little handful that I hold, is all there is of Christianity, I want no more of it."
That is a funny detail of my memory. It wasn't always like that during the year, but in the first stage of EQUIP, our teams weren't allowed to leave each other. We had to be together 24/7, and I'm not really sure why we were in the hallway, but several teams were also meeting in the hallway at the time (maybe we weren't allowed to be in our rooms with the door shut? I can't remember why).
It is interesting for me to think back on reaching this point of desperation in my Christian walk. I've often thought that I could have just as easily walked away from my faith and never looked back. But there was something--or rather Someone--who kept holding onto me while I was searching and hoping for a better way, and that was eventually found in relationship with, and resting in Christ, not in "doing." I've had to throw out a whole lot of my old mentality about religion in general, in order to start over with this relationship. In the end, I wouldn't trade my experience for anything though--I think it's made me more grateful for what I've found in relationship with Jesus, and confirmed to me that I never, ever want to go back to the dead religion of works righteousness.
wow, what a story! “my mother and father forsook me”. Those words stabbed me. The way that you are now able to use the image of adoption is so meaningful. This was really touching to read.
This is a little bit of a twist on the phrase, but I like the phrase "more than conquerors." In your penultimate paragraph, you say "The Lord came to bind up the brokenhearted and set free those who have been bruised (Isa 61:1, Luke 4:19) and He desires to do that with every one of you. Perhaps as you heal, you’ll be able to carry the real gospel, the gospel that IS good news, back to those who raised you..." To me, that is being more than conquerors. It's not just that we "win", but we go on in an effort to win people, and to see God's true power in action as he redeems good from bad. I would say that my parents have heard and understood the gospel even if they got sidetracked by legalism in living it out.
I think this gets at that elusive middle ground in my own thinking about how to approach our parents as well. On one hand, we are not obligated to accept the false dichotomies and labels they try to press on us. We can have confidence in believing the truth about our own wounds and our own healing. And yet our focus with the parents is not to come back and force them to accept our perspective, but rather a focus of extending God's grace to them. And I think this is truth in love. Truth, in that we are honest about what has happened, even if the parents attack us for breaking the "can't-talk rule", but love in that we don't come back as avengers but as peacemakers. Not "peace" in the false sense of "let's all pretend it's all fine" but peace in the sense that Christ is our peace, and I will pursue Christ and if you wish to as well, then we can meet there in his peace.
I'm feeling like the Lord sent you at a good time to encourage us and help us think through this with just a little bit more perspective, Blest. My heart hurts that your parents missed out on you as a blessing but others are obviously "Blest" by you :-)
Thank you, Matthew, for your kindness. I am "blest" by your words. ;-) My mom died while I was still a teen too, so I was never able to even begin to work on bridging the gap. But, I have found the always very-present Savior to be unspeakably precious. By this He has made me more than a conqueror too (I loved that thought).
And just a thought: even though your parents may have been within earshot of the real gospel, they may never have actually "heard" it. The voice of the Shepherd is still and small and gentle. The voice of the law is loud and strident, and can drown out the voice of the Shepherd for the undiscerning ear.
Blessings to you.
I, too, am very much enjoying this conversation. The word pictures are beautiful.