So many people keep asking why those who have issues with Bill Gothard don’t talk to him about the problems. Those of us who tried have pretty much given up trying to explain. How do you explain, to a rational person, the dangers and frustrations of discussion with an irrational person?
And I am sorry to say that I truly believe Gothard to be irrational — at least in situations where his teachings are being challenged. Most people become defensive and argumentative when confronted with the idea that they might be wrong. But mature, rational people take challenges under consideration and allow for the possibility that they might change their opinion. In my experience, Bill Gothard does not entertain the possibility that he could be wrong.
I had several confrontations with Gothard during my time at the Institute in Basic Life Principles [IBLP] Headquarters in Oak Brook, Illinois. As these conversations took place in the mid-1990s, the details are somewhat blurred by time. However, I still remember, to this day, the searing embarrassment and discomfort that I experienced when I confronted him personally. Discomfort that had nothing to do with attempting to “correct” an elder personally, but that had everything to do with Gothard’s ability to deflect blame and shift responsibility.
———-
Conversation One: On Keeping the Sabbath
At a Sunday night staff meeting, Gothard was castigating the staff and students for not keeping the Sabbath holy. (Most of us knew that he was primarily angry about the girls who went shopping on Sunday afternoons, and about people who refused to fast on Sunday.) When he concluded his peroration, Gothard said that he doubted whether any of us knew what the Bible actually taught about keeping the Sabbath and challenged everyone to study it for ourselves. I love research, so I jumped into that research project feet first. Over the next week or so, I spent all my spare time looking up every single reference that Strong’s Concordance lists for “sabbath,” “day of rest,” and anything remotely related.
Once I was sure that I had a complete understanding of the Bible’s teaching on the Sabbath and Sabbath-keeping, I asked Gothard for a private meeting. I didn’t want to embarrass him publicly with what I had learned: the whole Headquarters setup was in violation of God’s rules for Sabbath-keeping. I told him that I had taken his challenge seriously and showed him the notebook in which I had written all of the verses and analyzed God’s instructions on how to keep the Sabbath holy.
I then pointed out that the Headquarters staff was required, due to Gothard’s schedule, to break the Sabbath. Because he usually flew out on Sunday afternoons for the coming week’s live seminars, he was forcing a lot of people to violate the principle of Sabbath rest. I believe that he mentioned the “ox in the ditch,” and I responded that, from what I had read, such occasions would be very rare — “ox-in-a-ditch” situations would not occur on a regular basis.
I pointed out Exodus 16:29, which states that every person should stay in his own place on the Sabbath. This verse was the basis for the Jewish “eruv” — a specified limit to how far a person could go from his home on the Sabbath. I pointed out that by traveling long distances and by driving us all over the Chicago area to various churches, Gothard was violating this rule. There were several churches in the immediate area, most within a five- to ten-minute drive, that we could have attended. (The church I originally attended while at Headquarters was a 20-minute drive from the Headquarters campus.)
I also showed him Numbers 15:32–26, a story which shows how seriously God takes this concept. It tells the story of a man who gathered firewood on the Sabbath. When the people asked God what should be done, He told them to stone the man. I thought this story was quite compelling, especially considering that firewood was used for cooking and heating, and it might be considered an “ox-in-the-ditch” situation if the man’s family had run out.
Gothard justified his travel schedule and the other violations that I had found, and managed to make me question my understanding of all that I had read. I remember feeling confused and chagrined when the conversation was over, and then feeling stupid for thinking that he would take what I had found out seriously and act on it. I also remember this being one of the first indications to me that the emperor had no clothes — that is, that what was sauce for all the geese (Gothard’s followers) was not necessarily sauce for the gander (Gothard himself).
Conversation Two: On Ministering to and Through Ministers
At another Sunday night staff meeting, Gothard gave a long talk on how we and our families could bless local ministers by doing good deeds so that God got the glory, the ministers got the credit, and we got the joy of serving. He then opened the floor for suggestions on what sorts of things we could do in such a ministry. After listening to a litany of ideas like gift baskets for the ill, visiting shut-ins, and more over-done (and many utterly inane) ideas, I raised my hand.
When Gothard acknowledged me, I said, “I think we are going about this the wrong way. Each community is different, and each church has different needs. I think we should be asking individual pastors how we can best serve them. They know their congregations best, and can give us the best ideas for how we can help them serve their congregations.”
I do not remember Gothard’s exact response, but it was along the lines of “sit down and shut up, little girl. You’re messing up my presentation.” I thought I was stating something obvious and necessary, but I felt humiliated and confused as I sat back down, with everyone staring at me, and with Gothard looking at me with well-concealed anger. I left that meeting bewildered as to what I had done wrong, but vowing never to open my mouth publicly again.
Conversation Three: On Gossip and Tale-Bearing Among Staff
Toward the end of my service at Headquarters, my roommate was changed from a girl who had become a good friend to a “mole.” Repeatedly, others tattled to Gothard on me — telling him about situations that they totally misunderstood. This particular conversation occurred on my fourth or fifth trip to Gothard’s office to defend myself against accusations of late-night phone conversations with boys: My live-in mole reported me for having an hour-long conversation with a guy. What she didn’t know was that I had been talking with my father and with my brother, who had just returned from a year in Russia.
After clearing up the “confusion,” I confronted Gothard with my concerns about his, and the other leadership’s, willingness to listen to gossip and tale-bearing. I told him that he was fostering an atmosphere that encouraged sin and false witness, and that he should take steps to stop it, or it would destroy his ministry. Not to mention the trauma being inflicted on those who were being falsely accused.
I pointed out that his own teachings on Matthew 18 required him to send the tattlers back to me without listening to their accusations. That his own teaching made it clear that they should come to me privately first, rather than running to tell someone else. That it was not until they had talked to me personally at least twice, and with witnesses, that they should even attempt to involve IBLP leadership.
I also told him that he was violating my legal right to confront my accusers, since he refused to tell me who had tattled, and refused to bring them in so that I could correct their misapprehensions. (I knew who had tattled, though. The only witness to that late-night conversation with my brother was my roommate. This incident was my final confirmation that she was a spy for the leadership.)
Once again, I was made to feel as though I was in the wrong, misinterpreting and misapplying the Biblical teaching. But I was at least vindicated of the offense of talking to boys, when my father confirmed that I had been speaking to him and then to my brother during my long, late-night conversation.
———-
These three conversations were not my only confrontations with Bill Gothard. But they were the pivotal ones. They revealed to me that the rules that applied to everyone else did not apply to Gothard himself, and that he would not listen to anyone who confronted him with clear violation of either his own teachings or of Scripture.
His teaching on fasting on Sundays was problematic to me too. I remember being shocked when he would take me out to lunch on Sunday after church because I had heard him teach repeatedly on how we should all fast. I was very confused. To this day I have problems fasting because of all the forced fasting I had to endure.
[...] has been confronted about numerous issues in the past by the IBLP board and, in several cases, by individuals who were offended. Instead of confessing and repenting, he has strong-armed those who questioned him. He has proven [...]
I think Godthard's point is that the girls doing shopping on sunday was a "fun" thing. He, on the other hand, did not have fun traveling and it was God's work.
For a whole other group of religious people the Sabbath is on Saturday and thought of as very very holy and it strictly starts at sundown on Friday evening. And they are very solemn, jokes are not appreciated on those days and one MUST act serious. I have a brother who goes through this whole routine every week as 7th day Adventist. (In their eyes Sunday keepers are considered sinners and kicking God in the face for defiling His holy day)
Hi Esbee, this is a bit off topic, but do 7th Day Adventists believe you've taken the mark of the beast if you worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? (or is there a particular sub group of 7th Day who do?) I have a private reason for asking.. :/
yes some of them do. In fact, their salvation depends of keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. I have read extensively into SDA because of how my brother acts (very legalistic) and found many similarities with Godthard (or any leader of a cult) and their leader/founder Ellen White...she allowed herself many things that she said the scripture forbade good Christians to do-eating shellfish, Christmas trees and she also had for a time, a certain way of having her followers dress. She also contradicted herself many times in her writings and has been known to plagiarize. And if she was living today, the things she wrote about blacks would get her in more trouble than Paula Deen.
Thank you for your response, it helped clear things up for me.
It's obvious you were a troublemaker and dissenter. It was gracious of Gothard to let you stay on as long as he did.
See? It's so easy to explain these situations if you just twist the viewpoint a little, always keeping in mind that the Teachings are right, and you are wrong. That's what your difficulty was.
Also, sarcasm is not appreciated in these circles, as I learned pretty early on.
I loved reading this. I think you were right on about confronting Gothard about the errors of his teachings. I am proud of you for that and hope more ppl will have the guts to face false teachers no matter who they are, how rich and popular, etc. Btw...just so you know...the Sabbath was full-filled in Christ so to teach ppl to "DO" anything is totally contrary to the REST that we are called to enter into. We actually BREAK the Sabbath by attempting to "DO" things...This is the good news of the gospel of JESUS...HE "IS" our Sabbath. Yikes...few Christians know this it seems...but that is the GOSPEL truth. Those who have stepped into HIS rest have found a tremendous weight lifted off them. They also see that most Churches are promoting old testament/covenant teachings and are not preaching the true gospel...of the new covenant. Yikes...if they did...the ppl we would no longer be bound to the a building and a pew every week..paying someone to teach them...to think for them...to rule them--but rather--they would see that CHRIST is the HEAD...and HE IS LORD of all...(not any man). Anyway...thanks for reading and letting me share this with you.
May we all grow in grace and in the knowledge of Christ.
Thanks Wendy for writing this. I can anticipate some responses to be "That was 20 yrs ago. People change. You misunderstood his response. This article is only one side." etc. However, Gothard's teachings promote justifying actions. I am very good at that myself having been "trained" by IBLP material. Also, in response to the collection of articles on this website, Gothard wrote a letter to "all students past and present" and at the end requested contact so he could "seek restoration". This was very recent. I know of several who did try that were willing to share their results. Each grievance shared was only turned into a teaching/sermon and or justified. No real restitution was made. He has not changed. This is article is definitely reflects the rule, not the exception.
Very true. And I haven't heard Bill issue any public apologies for his improper touching of girls. Even if it WAS done harmlessly, shouldn't that be an even greater reason to apologize and not be afraid of speaking up? Instead... silence. Nothing publicly stated. After all of his teaching on the exact steps to apologize and clear a conscience, it's very interesting to hear so much silence. Truly his public silence speaks louder than words.
after reading all this stuff on Godthard, I have come to the conclusion that it is HIS empire, HE started it, HE worked it into what it is and HOW DARE any small person come along and try to change or criticize it, after all it has GOD's stamp of approval !!!
Especially a woman, right? :) Do any of you think it would have made a difference if a man had come to him with the same concerns?
I have read where men have come to him with very serious concerns and followed what the bible says how to tell a person they are wrong and he does the same thing to them...I am not defending him just making an observation-
esbee,
He's fired many a Board member or other "male" staffer who came to him with any "concerns". I'm sure as time goes on, we'll read some more of these stories on RG.
Its all about pride self righteousness hiding behind shields, etc.Great article.And oh yes please add bully.
Reading this article reminded me of the book about Gothard (A Matter of Basic Principles). It's been quite a few years since I read it but I seem to remember that Bill was confronted on a number of occasions about issues/problems in his organization/teachings. He would always promise change but never did it. Glad that more and more people are seeing Gothard's organization for what it is and finding freedom from his teachings.
My father confronted the man. And paid the price. Also my brother. And paid the price. Immediate one-way ticket home, out of his own paycheck, nonetheless!
Me, I'm willing to learn from history. I'll go for exposing via a public medium. I think it accomplishes more.
There is a chilling dimension to that culture of spying and informing. Joseph Stalin was a feared and brutal leader. It comes as a shock for many folks when they first hear where he learned many of his leadership tactics. He learned how to control and manipulate people... in seminary. In seminary, he experienced "surveillance, spying, invasion of inner life, violation of feelings." He learned from religious folks how to spy and violate privacy and get people to inform against each other. People should not underestimate the severity of the sort of intrusions that are baked-in to the culture at Institute facilities.
When I was first invited to HQ for a week and also to an event at Northwoods, a friend of mine who was successfully enjoying his time at HQ gave me a friendly word of advice: "If it feels like the walls have eyes, it's because they do. They are watching literally every move you make and your future depends on you making the right impression." This wasn't the ramblings of a bitter, disaffected castoff; they were words of wisdom from a friend enjoying his time there and giving me an insider tip on how to succeed. Here is a practical example of what that means: If you feel that the Lord may be laying it on your heart to go talk to someone who seems to be struggling, you should consider first and foremost the external appearances. If this person viewed by the leadership to be a rebel, and anyone who is obviously struggling with anything will certainly be viewed as such, realize that you must not be seen with this person because it will be assumed that their rebellion has attracted you to them and that you are also secretly a rebel yourself. Speaking from the perspective of one who wants to succeed at Institute Headquarters, it is better to fear man than God in this case; you should be more worried about your own success and about appearances than about reaching out and talking to that person.
Yep. Guilt by association was the norm in this ministry. I got into trouble for things my brother said to people who then tattled on him. Not once did anyone ask whether I even agreed with what my brother had said (at the time, I did not). I guess it was assumed that we shared the same opinion on every issue.
Then I heard through the grapevine that my brother and I were considered "rebels" which in hindsight, learning of some of the things others did at HQ, is laughable. Kind of makes me wish the accusation had been true - I might have enjoyed my time there more!
And at some point, we were told that failing to report the sin of others to leadership rendered us out from under their authority. I ruined a great friendship feeling like I had to tattle on my roommate because he had owned a movie soundtrack. I told him that he either needed to mail it home or I would have to turn him in.
Twenty years later, I see clearly that none of this had anything to do with love for the brethren and everything to do with control. Shame on this ministry for perverting good concepts like brotherly love and accountability for what arguably amounts to differing tastes in music, dress, and leisure.
Your friend owned a movie soundtrack. HMMM doesn't seem like much of a crime especially compared to Steve Gothard's assistant using ministry funds to acquire porn for him.
What disgusting double minded standards.
I am grateful that God's word is very clear on such issues.
How painful to know that you gave up a friendship for that.
May the God of all grace be with all who have suffered under this tyranny.
Thanks Wendy for sharing.
Guilt by association was a very really thing at HQ. I spent one week at HQ after I graduated high school and happened to overhear a conversation in a stairwell between my "roommate" and another young man. It was about three days into my stay and I had been guilt-ed into getting up a the crack of dawn to have bible study and personal devotions. I preferred to do mine at night (Not an acceptable schedule for ATI.) I was so offended that my roommate would feel the need to brag about his "positive" impact on me to others just because I attempted to appease him by getting up in the morning and doing my devotions - when everyone else was. Then the next day I lost all favor status for my early morning devotions, because I went and had dinner and devotions with one of the other houses on campus rather than meeting with my own group in the house I had been assign too. I left HQ on a run that Saturday night and never looked back. The Pharisaical airs that surround that place are like none I have ever witnessed anywhere else. It is so sad when the most unloving and un-accepting are being taught that they are the best of the best of the best. The hypocrisy is unreal. "Go into all the world..." - At what point does total separation from the world answer the Great Commission to be in the world showing and professing Christs love to others. It has been a long climb for me from total rejection of my faith based on this despicable institution to a reclamation and reconciliation of my person faith in Christ. Although I still struggle with the pride and bigotry ingrained in me from a young age. I thank God for his love and forgiveness and the Grace he has extended me that I am learning to extend to others. The Story of the Good Samaritan acted out today would have a gothardite playing the lead role of Pharisee - and they would be fantastic at it!
Wendy, this is so well-described. Though I was not around Bill very much personally, the little bit that I was around accords perfectly with this.
At the center in Indy, he said something in a presentation that made me wonder about something. I went up and asked him politely and sincerely how someone would know if God were to remove his hand of blessing from the ministry. Bill's eyes narrowed and the room dropped 5 degrees in temperature. His hands began to move forcefully as he grabbed his books slammed them into a stack (previously had been much more gently gathering them up). He said with clipped words that if God were to remove his hand of blessing for something like 24 hours the entire thing would collapse because there is no reason they could make it financially - the entire thing is a miracle every day. He staked the whole evidence of God's blessing as financial. I was shocked, both at his anger towards me, and his logic. By that logic, God must be especially fond of the LDS church and of Bill Gates! The look in his eyes communicated rejection for me as a person. He turned his back and walked away, leaving me a little older and wiser as I watched him go.
Later, I would realize that part of that day to day "miracle" was really the fact that he was sitting over an empire that is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 million. (http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/IL/Institute-In-Basic-Life-Principles.html)
Wendy, thanks for sharing this story. You have a spine of titanium alloy to have questioned BG directly. I applaud you for your efforts back then, I am sure I would not have had the guts to do the same if I were in your shoes.
Matt, brilliant comparison on Stalin & the inner workings of HQ. How ironic that the organization that works to bring Light to the former Soviet Empire actually practices tactics that have been rejected by the Russian people.
Also, I had no clue IBLP is worth so much money, and I also concur that financial blessing is no certain endorsement from above.
Yeah, doesn't the Scripture say 'the wicked prosper.'? I've heard people say that Bill hasn't had a raise in decades, and only makes approximately $18K a year. Well that looks good and humble on paper until you realize that almost all of his expenses are paid by the $100 million empire he's sitting on. Think about it. His traveling costs, room fees, even his going out to eat (per Gary Smalley) was paid for.. I still say if Bill were truly a humble man, he'd be serving food down in the kitchens during meal breaks in his seminars, or something like.
I find your observation rather familiar. As one of Bill’s former pilots in 1979 we would watch Bill drive up to our brand new $1.5 million dollar Lear 35A, in his 11 year old Olds 98 (with a front bench seat so his “dates” could sit next to him) and fly to the Institute’s Northwoods mile long paved airfield equipped with an instrument approach, remote control lighting, weather station and two airplane hanger with 10,000 gallon jet fuel refueling station. While telling the seminar attendees he drove an old car and was paid 500-600 dollars a month from private donations. I will have to admit while he liked staying in nice hotels but he wore inexpensive suits and ate cheap, each city we would have to find his favorite haunts for egg salad.
I remember going to Disneyland during one LA seminar and having to wear our seminar blue suits and the girls wore their matching seminar dresses. It was 90 degrees and talk about drawing attention to our group and with Bill in the center, he was in his glory. As I read your stories nothing has changed. He likes being surrounded by young beautiful women, and being the center of attention. He is no different then Hollywood’s “A” list celebrities or a Washington DC politician.
"Later Husband"
And don't forget he always wanted THE Red Carpet in every Training Center, even importing it to Moscow where it was most definitely impractical and out of place. I think red carpet must have signified luxury and God's blessing to him---that's all I can figure, since it was used to impress others and give a certain "air" to all the Training Centers, not at all for practical purposes. Nothing Hollywoodish about that, huh?!
I hate that Gothard's heart has been so hard that these things need to be said publicly. Better he had repented when approached so many years ago. Back in 1984, Dr. Ronald Allen wrote a paper, "Issues of Concern" about Gothard. That paper has been reposted here: http://www.midwestoutreach.org/issues-of-concern-bill-gothard-and-the-bible-a-report/
In it, Allen's concern #5 was A hypocrisy of life standard:
It's Gothard's freedom to choose to live like a Hollywood celebrity with his own money and time. But when it's the "Lord's money" and when he puts up a front that "hey, I just wear old clothes and drive old cars and take barely any salary", it is very misleading, and intentionally so. I have known some wealthy CEO type folks who did not have it as good as Gothard. I don't mean to overstep, but it reminds me a little bit of Ananias and Sapphira, where it would have been fine if they just told the truth, but it was in the false front and the dishonesty that God had a major problem with them.
Ha! Him? Mingle with the unwashed masses?! I heard a funny story: BG wanted to speak with a Successful pastor in a certain city, so a meeting was arranged. Before the pastor went in to see BG, he was briefed by a staff member on how to approach and relate to BG. He was told not to be loud or to touch him, because BG doesn't like that. But this pastor went in and in a loud, friendly way called out,"Hey, Bill! Great to meet you!" and gave him a hearty handshake. I heard this third-hand, but I thought it good enough to share. Have any of you seen any thing like that personally?
weren't there over 100 comments on this article...where did they go?
I don't think so. Is it possible you were thinking of the call the repentance? There are over 300 comments on it: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/06/a-call-to-repentance/
ah yes-thanks for the correction! must be spending too much time out in the texas heat riding my horse. p.s. according to BG, God must not blessing my memory due to I am "female rebelling by riding horses" one of those Godthard "trueisnts".
We used to go to a church where it was taught from scripture "touch not the man of God." We took it all to mean never ever under pain of torture and punishment from God himself to never correct or talk against in anyway the preacher or any of those in authority. That it was God's job and ONLY GOD'S JOB, to correct His men in authority. Funny how God brings back those memories in an interesting way ---now He can use the internet. You can see the catalyst for this comment at the link below. And it brought back a lot of old memories and fears.
http://now.msn.com/jim-standridge-baptist-preacher-insults-churchgoers-during-sermon
25 years ago I got my hair slicked back by this same pastor for something he thought I said. The day before I was helping my husband set up electrical and sound for the band called Alabama. We did not stay for the concert. It was a job my husband was hired to do and I was his helper because the place he worked for had no one else to send with him. The next day in church before the sermon, this preacher, who was at our church for a revival, must have heard me telling some friends how much fun I had helping my husband. During the sermon I was singled out for liking the world’s music more than God’s music, which the truth is, I am not a music lover at all. I tried to correct him but got my hair slicked back for daring to correct or interrupt a man of god, especially during sermon. I apologized after the sermon but did not tell him he was wrong. I chose to forgive and walk in perhaps now what is a mistaken humbleness never to question authority. He did preach a sermon where he said “sin is an attitude” and that has stuck with me ever since because I do have trouble with my attitude about a lot of things. Funny thing, I now have a horse trainer who does the same thing, I get a sermon if I do not hold my feet correct or reins or how I sit in the saddle…I was raised by an Italian mom who did the same thing. I have learned that some people have a way of telling you stuff that is not always sweet and kind (think marine corps basic training) I just let the wind go by and try to learn what they are telling me.
Now as to the true meaning of not touching God's man or anointed, I have been ruminating on that and I thought, I was not out to hurt the preacher or remove him from his pulpit, I just wanted him to know he had come to a wrong conclusion about me. (I think a lot of this happens a lot in church life, coming to the wrong conclusions about many.) So now I think I was not in the wrong to try to correct him, probably not during the sermon, but tell him respectfully afterwards. But can you imagine how it felt to be wrongfully accused in front of people you know and work with during a sermon which is supposed to bring you closer to God? So I really think that verse means to go against an anointed of God in a very bad way to destroy or remove, say perhaps like a communist country does to christians, I do not think it means making a gentle correction about small stuff.
I took it one step further and wrote to the preacher at his church website. I told him basically what I wrote here and that I had left a comment online under the video of him reaming out some people in his congregation.
After I did it I am still questioning should I have left a comment at all, should I even be writing this on here, what are my true motives, is it a way of "getting even" or doing this for spite (attitude) and of course that little fear that God would get me for "touching on of God's men." Now I know why I no longer attend church, why some become atheist after bad experiences in Gothardism and other legalist sects...the pressure to always do the right thing, to not get in trouble for slip ups, that an almighty all powerful being has you in the cross hairs...and to always be reminded that is God's way. No wonder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Esbee,
I don't think that any speaker, especially a minister of Christ's, should ever publically chastise anyone. And especially when that speaker doesn't even know the full situation. According to Jesus, as Matthew chapter 18 says, he should have first talked to you privately. You could identify with a message called "My Bad Church Experience". See it on
northpoint.org
I went to the website listed about and love the little dramatization about the couple being asked, as new members, to pray for others. Both my husband and I heehawed. But we have learned that you are correct about how a "speaker, especially a minister of Christ's, should ever publically chastise anyone."
In fact, if we were smart enough to ask God and Him alone, we probably should have quit going to that church a that time but we did not want to do it in a huff. (we are RIGHT and they are wrong stuff) But even before this situation, my husband was minister of music of that church, and he did it without pay because he loved the Lord and loved to sing. Soon after a second pastor was called in to help the young pastor, we walked in one Sunday, my husband had prepared the music for the day and there was a NEW minister of music. My husband had not been told anything or even consulted. Knowing him, he would have gladly stepped aside had this been the wishes of the church. (The new guy had no idea of what had happened either and it is a great credit to the love and ability to forgive that God put in my husband's heart that we held nothing against the church or the new minister of music...we in fact, became very good friends.) But the humiliations do not end there. After a new church was built and my husband had keys to the old church but not given keys to the new church. A friend, who was very close to the new pastor) was also showing him the new computer in the church office and the new pastor told my husband in a very firm tone that he had no business touching or looking at that computer, which took us all aback. My husband, who, with his job with the road dept, had the keys to 9 counties and was/is a computer whiz and knows his stuff about computers, his feelings were really hurt that day. But it still does not end as we must have been gluttons for punishment, the new pastor's son was appointed minister of music and my husband stayed on to be part of the music worship team but every practice was lots of complaining and pin-pointing and picking on my husband, how he sang, how loud he sang, how he played the guitar, on and on and on. If they did not want him in the group, they just should have said so. He came home from practice looking like he had been in a bar room brawl. Finally, our church split and we just quit going to church and my husband laid down his beloved guitar and has never sung again. It has been over 20 years. The tie into Godthard is that our church was very deep into many of his teachings, especially authority teachings, how women should dress, homemaking "godly" education, etc. Many of these concepts were used against people, too. But God is faithful and gave us a sense of humor. And some loveable crazy cats that keep us amused.
I watched the video you mentioned on youtube and find it so unbelievable that Christians would not only put up with such abuse as this is ( a pretty poor excuse for preaching), but support it with their time and money. But that's what we did with Mr.Bill, too, isn't it? those he abused just kept right on supporting him, or, if they saw the truth, left quietly so they "wouldn't damage the ministry" or smear the name of the church. Today, with the internet, people like this can be exposed. Too bad there wasn't a way to get this information out back in the 80's, when ATI was starting up.. We joined and never heard a peep about the scandals BG and his brother were involved in until this website mentioned them.
I'm not a big fan of the term spiritual abuse, but that you tube video certainly is a prime example if I've ever seen one. Seems like a desperate man trying to hold onto power. sad really....
I agree. Grateful, if you've ever read the book "A Tale of Three Kings" (http://www.amazon.com/Tale-three-Kings-Study-Brokenness/dp/0842369082/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373465463&sr=1-1), it reminds me of the mindset of Saul and Absalom versus David. People who attack and grab on to power for selfish reasons rather than people who work with an open hand before God. It's exactly what Jesus said not to do, lording it over others (Matthew 20:25).
Thanks you, Tangent, for sharing that site. May it continue to help all on this site. Will we ever get Bill Gothard having the same experience as Paul? We don't know. We can pray for it, and pray for each other.
Wendy, thanks for doing what you did and sharing it. Keep on doing that, and between everyone, I hope and pray we can find healing and help others to learn from it too.
[...] his new “revelation,” it was definitive and understood to be borderline sin if one disagreed. No one questioned Gothard, or if they did, he made sure to have an answer that would silence or emba... He knew how to make his audience feel inferior if they did not enthusiastically embrace his latest [...]
Bill Gothard seems to also surround himself with people who have an opinion that is not backed up with scripture. It is based on what they have decided is "spiritual". Gary Fraley is one that has caused severe problems with my family. He lied to my wife and then lied to me about what was sin and was not. I asked him where the scripture was that showed he was correct. He said "Everyone that knows the bible knows this". I asked him several times to tell me where in the Bible were the verses. I also told him that my father and father-in-law who were missionaries for over 40 years told me that Mr Fraley was not telling the truth. Mr Fraley hung up (slammed the phone) on me. My father told me that he would not recommend a man whose brother had an affair in his office and then would not follow his "authorities" recommendations to "shut down" until this was resolved. He would not. Unfortunately these people seemed to get a hold on people who honestly are looking to live a Godly life. I would not agree with this dishonest person and it caused contention in my house because I would not agree with my wife on his truthfulness. We are still married thanks to God's grace and the example of my both our parents.
Well, my wife and I attended a "Gothardite" church in the late 80's to early 90's and started to get sucked down that hole of Phariseeism. We truly yearned to honor and please the Lord in all things. We even hauled our daughter off to an IBLP conference, bought into the whole thing, until...... I read "Grace Awakening" by Jerry Bridges. What a God send that book is. It freed me and my entire family from the idiocy of teachings from men like Bill Gothard. We were freed and we ran from Gothard's stuff as fast as possible...no looking back and NO REGRETS. Interestingly, the leadership of that little closed minded, closed circle church had no further interest in us and our lack of being "team players" we left that church and that denomination. No looking back and NO REGRETS! Free in God's true grace! What a balm to my soul.
Are you referring to a book of a different title by Jerry Bridges, or a book by Charles Swindoll perhaps?
That's awesome! My grace awakening came from reading "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Michael Horton while I was living at the Indianapolis Training Center, later followed by reading "What's So Amazing About Grace?" by Phillip Yancey. Both books really helped me process my experience and see that I was truly dying inside while earnestly striving to please the Lord through my own efforts. The amazing thing about grace is that it's truly hard to "get it" until you really "get it." But once you do, you never want to go back!
Larry, I have read Grace Awakening as well. I believe the author is Chuck Swindoll. It is a good read.
[…] Many godly and sincere people have gone to Bill and the IBLP board over the last few decades of his … with immense concern and have prayerfully used the Matthew 18 approach, but it seemed to fall on defensive, damning, or deaf ears. Because of the lack of repentance and true change, the time for private appeals is past. The time for public appeals and “reveals” is here. My hope is that eyes would be opened to the truth, and that the wounded would find healing and grace. […]