“The board of directors of the Institute for Basic Life Principles has placed its longtime leader Bill Gothard, 79, on “administrative leave” while the board investigates claims that he years ago engaged in sexual harassment and other misconduct…”About the author
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Thank you Recovering Grace team! Thank you to all the women who had the courage to tell their stories of abuse and harassment that he may not prey on another victim. Thanks to all who have shared their stories of pain, healing, recovery and grace.
It is not over. I'm sure that there is a lot of attempted manipulation going on behind the scenes, but now the world will know and be warned.
Maybe bad form but I'll repost my thoughts: Wow. Yes. Thank you to all who have shared their stories and RG for their diligence and deliberate methodical approach. You guys have told a story that's too freakin' fat to fit under the rug.
Your best imagination of Morgan Freeman's voice: "Geology is the study of pressure and time. That's all it takes really, pressure, and time." (Shawshank Redemption for those who still haven't seen an R movie:))
This is step one. Keep applying the pressure!
Yeah, that is one movie I wish to block out of my memory. Not watching R rated movies is a smart move in my opinion. Sorry, a little off topic.
That's an amazing movie, just like this amazing news!
This may be a good example of men and women being different. We process experiences differently. Going back to the main subject here, some women need to be on the panel involved in investigating the allegations for that very reason.
Good point
Considering the warden character in "Shawshank", that would be the PERFECT movie reference... he even looked like Bill...and LOVED his shiney shoes...hmmmm
Too funny! Wish there was a Like button here.
Amazing! God free your people!
Is this story confirmed yet?
The only story seems to come from World Magazine, and looking around there, their articles often seem to be loosely based in fact.
If the story is true, I will be sure to offer a meatball to the FSM tonight!
Religion News Service has picked it up too:
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/28/conservative-leader-bill-gothard-placed-administrative-leave-following-abuse-allegations/
In a statement posted Thursday, board chairman Billy Boring told World magazine: “After completion of the review.....
Their only source seems to be World Magazine.
Was Charlotte's real name supposed to be made public? I hadn't seen that anywhere in the prior threads.
Yes, "Charlotte" did give permission for the reporter to use her name.
It has now hit the Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/28/bill-gothard-abuse_n_4875061.html
I emailed IBLP directly and received confirmation from Dr. Billy Boring that this was the case. If you send them an email, they will probably send you the same thing they sent me. Here it is:
Dear Sue,
The Board of Directors of the Institute in Basic Life Principles is doing a very prayerful, thorough, and Biblical review in regards to the assertions brought by various individuals and groups. After completion of the review the Board will respond at an appropriate time, and in a Biblical manner.
Mr. Gothard is on administrative leave while the Board completes its review. He will not be involved in the operations of the ministry. The Board of Directors will be prayerfully appointing interim leadership.
Dr. Billy Boring
Chairman of the Board
I'd feel much better about it had they put ministry in quotes, but I'm an idealist.
I feel like their "Biblical review" will be the same way ATI has always used scripture. They'll pick and choose the verses they need to defend him. Or to actually blame those who came forward. The Board is just as guilty as Gothard is.
After reading the article that posted the bios of each board member, I am even more skeptical that this board will deal with this in an unbiased manner. I am so prayerful that they will, but on the surface the prospect of that does not look good. These appear to be men deeply entrenched, who have shown great loyalty to him over the years, and it is highly likely he picked each and every one of them for their position due to this unwavering loyalty.
But, even if the investigation proves to be a kangaroo court, I think that the organization is through either way.
News is spreading like wildfire, and within a week, the world will know. This is not 1980. This is the information age. If, in fact, the board are just spineless "yes" men, who are making this move with the intent to restore him in a number of weeks or months, with some vague confession like 1980, I think they have miscalculated. The information is now out there and the results of their investigation will be scrutinized and poured over. I don't think the world will accept a half-hearted investigation.
If they do find that he is guilty of the accusations, and seek to replace him, I just don't see the organization moving forward without Gothard at the helm. Gothard is ATI and IBLP. The whole structure is based on his unique (and twisted) interpretation of scripture. Even if new leadership is brought in, the families would still be faced with the reality that these are the teachings of a serial sexual predator.
I also don't think it likely that a clever name change and an attempt to reinvent themselves will work. So many people have commented that if their parents knew about the details of the 1980 scandal, they never would have gotten into ATI. Well, going forward, new families will know the details of this current scandal and past scandals. I think they'll steer clear. They can't continue without a continuous stream of new members.
They can't put this genie back in the bottle.
They may not know it yet, but I think it is over for Gothard and his various organizations.
The Washington Post has posted an article, as well as Christianity Today. The WaPo article ties Gothard to the Duggars, so that is the way this story will gain traction, through its ties to pop culture.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/conservative-leader-bill-gothard-on-leave-following-abuse-allegations/2014/02/28/51f1aac6-a0bb-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_allComments.html?ctab=all_
Doing a Google search of the "Bill Gothard Placed on Administrative Leave" term has now revealed 4 entire pages of hits before the results start to disperse to non - topic related links. I think this morning there may have been 3 links when I searched the phrase. Bloggers are picking this up and running with it. The "heat is on" to borrow a phrase.
Over on FreeJinger website they had a thread that was about 18 pages long discussing the news. It appears (if I read the threads correctly, I could be wrong) from the postings in that thread that the Duggars have scrubbed their website of any photos that have BG in them.
Keep praying folks, now is the time to redouble them. There is a long way to go yet.
"It appears (if I read the threads correctly, I could be wrong) from the postings in that thread that the Duggars have scrubbed their website of any photos that have BG in them." If so, that's good news. I sincerely hope the Duggars are beginning to see the light. I wish them all the best.
Just looked at the Duggars' website. They still have links to IBLP/ATI related sites.
Wonderful,,, I also hope they investigate and do a hard study on his theology while they are at it,,,,----
It's a small, but needed, step in the right direction: YEEEAAAH!
thank you, RG team, you guys are Nehemiah rebuilding the wall.... with lots of help
The flood gates are opening. We must pray for those still in bondage, that they will find healing in God's true grace.
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/28/conservative-leader-bill-gothard-placed-administrative-leave-following-abuse-allegations/
WOW, thanks, Kevin - this article really goes after it! Highly recommended reading, in my opinion. And I'm glad it clearly shows the crucial role of RG in all this.
Praise the Lord for all He is doing in and through his people! "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war."
Yes! May those who eyes are still blinded finally receive their sight. It's time to quit elevating a man to the level of a demi-god.
Thank you Recovering Grace team for your many hours of hard work and dedication to getting the truth out and to all who have written and shared your personal hurts with us.
Praise God the truth is finally getting out! "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."
Thank you, Recovering Grace! FINALLY a step in the right direction! Let's hope the board is comprised of real men this year.
Yes! Thank you, Recovering Grace.
A huge step in the right direction. I hope that the teachings themselves are considered by the board and all who will have the idea that these are the failings of an individual. These are the failings of teachings that keep our eyes on what we are or are not doing rather than having our eyes on Christ.
Back in '81, when I went to my first seminar - following the principles turned my life around. So I thought. I set myself up a chain of command - or rather, looked at my pastor as my head, since my father had passed away when I was 14.
My pastor was a good man, and not abusive. He took his role as a fatherly role, and guided me well, and I listened. That was the main thing that helped me - and truth be known, it was really simply accountability. I did have the fear factor now - if I did not obey him, holes in the umbrella, and I would be responsible for every evil that befell me and my daughter (I was a single mom). So I was performing out of fear. And it did turn my life around.
When I met my husband who had never heard of Bill Gothard, I asked if we could "start our marriage right" and go to a seminar. We did go, in our first year of marriage. LA, with Bill in person. Who was the girl he was holding hands with in LA in '81, I wonder.
My husband bought the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. We were safe now. Except we weren't. I didn't just have the chain of command in mind now - I had a list - a bookful - of things I was responsible for or my family was in danger. Depression came, as I was on the "can't do it" side. I've have come to the conclusion that you fall on one side or the other. Either the false assumption that you can do it - pride - or the realization that you just can't - defeat.
While I continued to plummet into depression, I tried my best to demand of my children that they comply. Instilling the same fear into them. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Jeff Van Vonderen helped a great deal. It has been a long time since I realized Gothard's teachings were wrong. Further, that we don't need him since we have the Word and it is an interactive book between me and the Holy Spirit as he reveals to my heart what I so need to learn. My family is getting help, and finding a grace filled relationship with Christ.
Keeping your eyes on Jesus works much better than constantly trying to do it right or else. How about walking with Wisdom Himself instead of spending time in wisdom booklets.
I know that as long as we are on this earth - the church - waiting on Him - men will twist the scriptures and lead others astray. As long as we are here, there will be a need for the likes of RG and team. Because the wounded and weary who've been led astray will need help, and those leading them astray will need to be corrected and held accountable.
God bless you, RC
Correction: We went to the Los Angeles seminar in '88.
Wow. Nothing to gloat over but instead to pray all the more fervently. My heart goes out to all who were and are involved. May the rest of us bystanders have grace and patience as we see the hand of God working in the lives of those so intricately involved.
How ironic that Brittany Spears had Bill pegged the whole time, "I'm not...that...innocent"
I hate to be skeptical, but well, I'm skeptical -- even if this news is true. World magazine? Where is the announcement from IBLP? It is significant that Bill himself did not step down, himself openly call for an investigation, or make a statement. Not yet. The board putting him on leave makes it sound like he is actually accountable to them -- is he? Do we really believe that his board is going to find him guilty? -- as if all this stuff is new to them? We know what happened in 1980 when he had to step down. So let's see if this is legit or just a ploy to appease everyone who is crying for his resignation. I don't want to believe this about professing Christian people, but if I were Bill this is exactly what I would do -- then the board will either find the charges unfounded, or they will give him a slap on the wrist and he will be back -- case closed. It is a way to defuse the situation. I'm going to wait and see before I proclaim this as a positive step. In short, is there any reason to believe that the right thing is going to be done here? Any history of that?
This is why it must always come back to the teachings. And since the board members are already there because they believe the false teachings, my guess is that those teachings won't even be discussed. In the end, if those teachings remain in tact, Bill will be back. You can bank on it. And if he is back and the teachings remain, nothing will have changed -- which is exactly the damage control Bill probably hopes for at this point.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. Let's not count this a positive quite yet. Cautious optimism is in order.
I concur. Remember, he did this once, and within a month he was back in control (actually, he never really left).
There are two possibilities here:
1. This is another 1981 shell game, where he "temporarily steps down" until the furor dies down, then comes back.
2. The Board of Directors may be afraid that they may be sued for having failed to perform their duties in the past. Also, no one wants to be on the board of a failed enterprise (as mentioned, IBLP has lost money the last few years), so they may be thinking that the organization needs a new face (Duggar?) to reverse the trend.
I agree that the teachings are wrong, and while they are not addressed, anything that the board goes on to do will be wrong.
That said, I'm not so sure about Bill coming back. Even if the board are all terribly depraved themselves (I'm not accusing them of that, just looking at the worst case scenario) then they are going to want to continue the ministry because they want to save their own skin. And how is the best way to do that? Bill is 79. He won't be around for much longer anyway, and he's dragging them down. Even if they aren't interested in doing right, it would make sense to them to cast him off and act repentant in order to salvage as much for themselves as possible.
I hope you are right. But you do have to remember that you are dealing with a cult. You have to remember that the board cannot fire Bill. And you have to remember that for if he agrees to permanently resign that he will be admitting wrong. I cannot see that happening. I can see a temporary step down for the purpose of appeasing his critics. That is all and it will mean nothing.
He wouldn't have to admit wrong. It would be known by his critics, of course, but he wouldn't have to.
When Schaap was originally caught out, before HAC realised the FBI was involved he stepped down temporarily for a health condition.
When Chuck Phelps was removed from the board at BJU after a public protest and social network harassment due to his covering up the rape of a teen, the university announced that he had decided to step down for the good of the university's goals or some such nonsense.
When BJU fired the GRACE investigation, they claimed that there were concerns about the way GRACE was handling the investigation. Then when the public pressured them, it was reinstated. Then they claimed that they'd met and made appropriate changes that addressed their issues. GRACE stated that they (GRACE) had refused to compromise and no changes had been made.
This is a cult. The faithful will believe whatever they're told, no matter how obviously wrong it is. Bill can step down without admitting wrong or apologising. The board can continue on.
But would this silence Recovering Grace? It would be an obvious complete lack of repentance. I think once these groups could cover and hide a lot better than they can today, and they have yet to understand the power of public media.
Of course, it's possible that the board is made up of real, genuine people who love God and who were deceived, who in their brokenness ask the hard questions about how they were able to be lead so far astray, and they do accept that the teachings are wrong.
I don't know. There are a number of different ways this could go. When you do realise that you are in a cult, that everything's wrong, that for years you've been working so hard to further an agenda that you now see was unhealthy - it's hard. Different people cope with that knowledge in different ways, and it can take time to process it. It's far easier to hide in cognitive dissonance.
A GREAT BIG THANKS TO THE RG GROUP- I know you all have put in tiring and endless hours to dot all the i's and cross the t's. I hope justice is soon coming to those who need it!
"In the end, if those teachings remain intact, Bill will be back. You can bank on it. And if he is back and the teachings remain, nothing will have changed -- which is exactly the damage control Bill probably hopes for at this point."
You may be right, given how the situation of how immorality was dealt with in the past. But let's look at it in another way. Board members would not be board members if they did not believe the teachings of the institute. Are the board members paid? If they are, then they will not want to dissolve the organization and lose their source of income. If not paid, then at least they will not want to see the fall of something they believe in.
They may only be using RG as an impetus to retire an old man and may already have someone else to take his place. Or they may send BG to oversee operations in a country without extradition rights and appoint someone to run the Institute here in the U.S.
p.s. I am not trying to be a party pooper but like chess, you always gotta be thinking several steps ahead.
There are additional concerns: If this story is true -- and as of yet there is no collaboration -- how will this investigation be conducted? They will need all of the information, and access to all of the individuals that are behind the stories on this RG site. Does anyone see where this is going?
If they want a sincere investigation, then we ought to follow the Bible. Since Bill claims to be part of the Body of Christ, then let the Body of Christ do an investigation -- a panel of Christian ministers who have no ties whatsoever with IBLP. Let them examine not only the allegations of sexual harassment, but especially the teachings themselves. I can promise you that if this was done, that the teachings would be condemned. They already have been -- by most apologetic ministries and outside parties. But IBLP will never submit themselves to this. That is why it is a cult. So we are going to allow a cult to investigate itself, and think they are going to come to the right conclusions about the teachings? Even if the board is comprised of sincere people, they are nevertheless on the board of directors of a cult. They are deceived people or they would not be there. I will hope for the best, and right now, this may be nothing more than a political move intended to disarm Bill's enemies. It is what has ALWAYS been done by that organization. I see no reason to expect otherwise. I hope I am proven wrong.
I would like to see a third party organisation like GRACE brought in.
So would I (and a forensic accountant and a panel of Christian leaders to evaluate the teaching/materials' theology), but I assume that the board would have to invite them. If only we could just send them in! But I don't know that they would, because the results could end the organization as a whole, with or without its founder.
These are very true words, David. Thank you for so masterfully stating the situation.
Yes, I'm skeptical also. I can see him just playing his cards: being placed on leave, fasting and praying, and then returning to his position with even more clout after an "investigation" reveals "no evidence." I wouldn't trust an internal investigation, but his followers want to believe in him and in their organization, so they would be relieved to hear that he was "innocent." I don't know what sort of measures are actually being taken - who is doing an investigation, or if one is even being done officially. Even if he's ushered out of the "ministry," I can't visualize the demise of IBLP and ATI entirely. I think a few members will part ways, but a new leader will be named and the group will move on.
If I remember correctly, "World Magazine" doesn't really reach the entire world... my family subscribed to that magazine, and I think I recall it being a fairly conservative news source that was a once a month publication... correct me if I'm wrong.
This time it's different. The revenue has been plummeting for years and Bill is 79. I don't know who's on the board but you have to plan for the future if you want the ministry to go on. Bill isn't going to live forever. This is a perfect breaking point for them. In '80 the ministry was exploding in an upward way. They didn't want to get in the way of the money back then. This time it has imploded. If they bring him back the ministry will continue to contract. There's too much overhead to continue on this downward spiral with Bill. Their only option is a fresh face and a "new" approach to ministry. At some point they have to change horses. What do I know, I'm only a business man and have never run a cult. I'm actually fine if the whole thing folds up which given the boards ineptness in the past is a very legitimate possibility.
This is like a win the same way making it to the Olympics is like winning gold. There's nothing in the history of this organization to make me believe that this administrative leave will lead to any kind of actual admission of fault or real lifestyle change. A whitewashed "apology" for misunderstood exhortation (or whatever new hell is invented next) will do nothing to deal with this culture of unquestioned authority and blind following. Fingers crossed, for sure, but wake me up when something real and tangible happens - like the entire organization is dissolved, past victims come out with their full names, or current victims press charges. In the real world, "church discipline" doesn't really carry much weight.
"In the real world, "church discipline" doesn't really carry much weight." Agreed times a thousand Ms. Shepherd. I think that this is part of the reasoning that BG came up with the "don't give an evil report" teaching. It prevented his victims from going to the public authorities and filing criminal charges / EEOC violations, etc, when they would have been entirely appropriate. And, had those charges been filed, he would have gone to court and probably jail. Fines would have been levied. IBLP probably would have been shut down. But, by leveraging his teaching to keep everything "in house", he has been able to continue in his ways with complete impunity.
I publicly call on the IBLP Board to invite in an independent group to do their investigation of Gothard. To NOT sweep everything aside as they did in 1980. Time to shine the sunlight in the dark corners and recesses of their organization. Enough is enough! NO MORE victims!!!
Yes! Nothing short of a truly independent investigation will do. G.R.A.C.E. would be a great choice, IMO (the group that investigated Bob Jones U): netgrace.org
True, church weight has the powerof a slap on the wrist. Outside authorities sometimes is the solution to break it up if there was any hanky panky going on there :)
What can we do to support this? Do you think applying public pressure in the form of respectful emails or phone calls to the ATI or the board members involved, expressing our "staunch support of their actions as well as our extreme concerns about any possibility that he returns to ministry in any capacity" would be helpful?
I like that idea, Sarah. Often I find myself signing pre-written petitions or this or that, such as the recent 'Free Saeed' petition from the ACLJ for the imprisoned American pastor in Iran. Has RG considered writing a 'form petition of support' to the board, with added wording encouraging them to do the right thing and see this through? People could sign the petition and the board could see how big the RG community really is. It would communicate a cautious optimism and an expectation that the proper next steps will be followed.
I too like that idea, Sara. Would RG be able to post contact information?
We believe that public pressure is what has led us to this point. We would actually suggest that our readers encourage the board to invite an outside, independent organization to do a thorough investigation of the allegations. One such group that we have suggested to the board is GRACE ministries (www.netgrace.org).
Yes!
How can we email the board members? Does RG have that information and would readers of this site be able to get those addresses. I am "alumni" (barf) and I would be happy to send email to the board, as would others I'm sure.
I don't see a way to contact just the board at IBLP (perhaps someone else has information), however there is a "Contact Us" section on the website. I think an email via that link could be sent to the board. I believe I will give that a try.
http://iblp.org/about-iblp/contact-us
Upon reading this, all I can say is praise God! Thank you for your hard work, RG. But yes, this is a small step in the right direction, and could go either way. So, keep up the work and let's keep up the prayer. We are fighting a spiritual battle! Oh my; now all the songs are coming....The Battle Belongs to the Lord, Onward Christian Soldiers, Be Strong in the Lord, and a camp song based on Romans 16:19-20.
Encourage the Board of directors to add a couple of women to the Board.
This would be a big step in getting some protection for children. Someone that is not just a yes sir type of person but will speak up and
make interventions when needed.
Amen! Praying for this.
Or we could pray that the organization simply closes downs and that the proceeds from the assets are distributed in such a way that they will no longer continue to promote the same twisted theology Gothard has taught for so long. . .
Nothing wrong with having women on the board to help with a dissolution, if that were to happen.
Agreed, it seems to me that it would be less likely for these situations would be overlooked if the board included women.
It seems that having women with very real voices on the board might help the board to identify better with the situations into which the girls were placed rather than placing additional blame on these young women for following in the path they were led.
The questions need to be asked why the men did these things in the first place. That the man couldn't control himself is not a valid response in my opinion and neither is the response that the girl could not (caveat to follow--see next paragraph). Neither of these are the rule in the system when dealing with single students (young men or women). As such, in order to deal with integrity (equal measures and weights), lack of control cannot be a valid consideration for an authority figure either.
However, the girl must also be able to express if she was being placed into a position of no good alternative. Women are likely to be very helpful at guaging such a claim. As usual, things are more complicated than we wish them to be. It's easier to talk about basic principles than it is to dig into the nitty-gritty of the situation at hand.
My point being that whoever is on the board, they must have a very real voice so that matters cannot be simply swept under the rug so to speak. If just judgement is the concern, let it be so.
I agree that the board should include voices of women who can combat the actual mindsets behind which these types of abuse often hide. Frankly, that does take a woman's viewpoint which can and should be treated as equal and relevant.
Would women be able to act fully as board members? It seems like the ideology wouldn't permit them to act with full authority in such a role.
Yes, women definitely need to be involved in this.
I think you guys are describing (wishing against) a fatal flaw in the WHOLE construction of this ministry and it's theology; it doesn't value women. At least not in the ways you're asking for. Being snarky I'd say the board will not include a woman because they don't need a cook, someone to give birth, or someone to cook and clean. You're fundamentally asking a woman to be included in the umbrella. If that were to happen the ministry, as I understand it, would cease to exist. Patriarchs don't do what you're asking.
Forgive/correct me if I'm wrong. I only attended some seminars, but I can't fathom this organization valuing what a woman had to say about such matters, really! It's part of why there was a constant stream of young women. They tend to be slow to fight the male leadership and get "uppity".
Please, An outside audit! Please, GRACE! Please, women as a part of GRACE's outside audit!
quite true Shane!
That would be a great idea and something worth fighting for, but will be an up hill battle. Any woman the board would agree to might not be as out spoken as you you might want. I think if RG keeps the pressure on they might be able to force the the board's hand. My guess is the board is made up of men who believe the woman's place is in the "kitchen". With all the women on staff there should have been women on the board after the 1980 scandal.
Larne Gabriel
Perhaps he will have the opportunity to teach his "new" approach to life personally to prison inmates soon. What a privilege! :)[sarcasm]
My personal feeling is that this is a temporary move by the board to try and get RG to stop putting out info. It's an act of appeasement. The Religion News article posted above is far better than the World Magazine article and far more revealing. RG, please keep releasing the information that you have, everything must be brought to light. Everything.
May I also say that I find it highly ironic that the head of the board is a guy named Bill Boring......
Yes. The pressure must increase, not decrease. I know that RG understands this. The more people who persist in joining in these continuing efforts, the better. Now is not the time for cynicism regarding the outcome. Now is the time to lock arms, trust God, and press ahead!
It wouldn't surprise me if Bill Gothard and the board agreed to make it look like it was the board's decision. That way it gives the appearance that the board actually takes action and isn't a puppet of Bill Gothard. As others have said, great way to diffuse a situation.
Just a possibility.
Sometimes God works situations out to show teachers that what they teach isn't workable or is fallacious. I saw that reported with various leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries such as with C.J. Mahaney and Dave Harvey. A shame Gothard didn't learn from this and adjust his teaching and policies.
Maybe if Gothard had some type of a relationship with a woman his age he wouldn't have resorted to sexually harassing young women under his control? Some of the actions sound like what happens with someone that is lonely etc.
"Maybe if Gothard had some type of a relationship with a woman his age he wouldn't have resorted to sexually harassing young women under his control? Some of the actions sound like what happens with someone that is lonely etc."
I see him as a power hungry narcissist. A normal relationship doesn't go along with that well. I think this was all much more than loneliness, though he probably was lonely.
He needed to manipulate and be in charge. No normal relationship would be OK with having a man control over everything she did or wore, or places she went.
Good point Deb. He does appear to be quite the controlling narcissist.
"Maybe if Gothard had some type of a relationship with a woman his age he wouldn't have resorted to sexually harassing young women under his control? Some of the actions sound like what happens with someone that is lonely etc."
Loneliness is neither a predictor nor a justification for sexual harassment/abuse.
Bill Gothard did not "resort" to his crimes - he chose them willfully.
This sort of "poor guy just needed a woman to keep him from being an animal" mentality is offensive and belittling in the face of the gravity and severity of his actions.
>>Maybe if Gothard had some type of a relationship with a woman his age he wouldn't have resorted to sexually harassing young women under his control?
The problem is hyper Gnosticism, or super spirituality. This heresy views all physical desires as bad. To prove himself to be spiritually superior, he publicly trumpeted his buffeting of his body to be our example, e.g., his fasting, his living at home, driving an old car and his denial of his manhood by not ever pursuing a woman. Trouble is, he is actually a man with a man's needs and his denial of that did not make those needs go away, so they came out in secretive perverse ways.
If Bill married, he would still hunger for the manipulative situations he is able to achieve with staff members. The only thing that would change is that now there would be a wife for everyone to blame. "If only she'd satisfied him better in the bedroom, he wouldn't have..."
I am sorry for the single men in various Christian ministries who are getting a bad rap by this man. BG does NOT represent most people in ministry, and I feel sorry for the innocent, passionate, law-abiding, God-fearing men in ministry everywhere else that may be affected negatively by BG's choices and example.
Exactly right. Sexual Abuse and Harassment is about power and control not sex.
"Maybe if Gothard had some type of a relationship with a woman his age he wouldn't have resorted to sexually harassing young women under his control? Some of the actions sound like what happens with someone that is lonely etc."
I have been thinking about this one. If Bill has a fetish for busty young girls with soft curls, what would happen if he married? As an unmarried guru, he has access to all the flowers in the garden to feed his fantasies. Married, he would have only one woman, a woman who would require something of him, or might question his long hours and 'counseling sessions' with busty young women with soft curls. A woman who might gain some weight, or want to cut her hair at some point… or want (shudder) children.
(We knew Bill in the '70s and he did NOT like little kids) I pity the woman who would be married to such a man!
No, marriage would have ruined the whole set-up.
Right on. I would have felt sorry for any woman ended up marrying him.
Yes, I am skeptical about the results of this situation. Yes, it appears that this could go the exact same route as the scandal of 1980. Who knows if the rubber stamp board has dug a titanium backbone out of its closet... the odds, probably not great.
HOWEVER, what this does indicate to me is that the pressure being applied by the narrative coming from RG IS being felt. To me, this is its own small victory. Results are never up to us, but I think if this is true, it is an idication that what is needed is to stay the course. Recovering Grace, I know you never set out to do exactly what you are doing right now, but I am so grateful for your faithfulness in following what you've been led by God to do as this situation has developed.
I am excited by this news. Yes, it is a bad situation. Yes, we were taught not to rejoice when your enemy is taken down a notch (have to get back to you on whether that's actually a Biblical notion, because I do think the Children of Israel rejoiced when Pharaoh was drowned in the sea). However, I am filled with joy to know that the speaking of the truth is having an effect.
This is no time to relax. I pray that God continues to work through RG, and that everyone is keeping close watch on their safety and we all continue to make wise decisions.
It. Is. Not. Over.
17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
18 or the Lord will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.
Proverbs 28 says this. This translation says not to "gloat."
The psalms are full of examples of praying for and rejoicing in the correction of those who harm; are workers of injustice...any conversation about the plight of victims must account for Psalm 137's place in the cannon as the prayerbook of God's Anointed and His people. It is a righteous thing to rejoice in the vindication of/God's taking up the plight of abused. There is also Biblical wisdom in doing so with humility and caution lest we too fall. One does not negate the other.
Actually Proverbs 28:17 & 18 says: A man burdened with bloodshed will flee into a pit; let no one help him. Whoever walks blamelessly will be saved. But he who is perverse in his ways will suddenly fall.
Oddly appropriate.
100% agreed.
I do not consider an answer until it has been received. So far, my opion is that we have only heard something on this order, "We're dealing with it--look, he's out of his official capacity while we look into it." This is not yet resolution--this is process, and one for which I'm willing to give place. However, if it turns into an attempt to gloss over the issues at hand, I suspect many will be able to recognize that for what it truly is.
There is wide-spread accountability from the outside as well as what should have been all along from the IBLP board itself on the inside.
Just because the IBLP board failed to complete their duties in the face of an "out from under authority" defense in response to their attempt to investigate claims in the past does not mean they will repeat the same path again.
Actually, having this as a historical pattern lends toward the same type of action being perceived as inadequate this time around.
This time, if things remain behind closed doors and the organization goes on business-as-usual as its long-term strategy, the answer would seem to me to be clear that transparency is not a necessary or desired character quality. Along with that goes accountability--both of which are indicators of integrity or a lack thereof.
Let's see what happens.
Yes, at least it shows that they were feeling the heat. But I also agree that this is purely a political move. It is exactly what any clever person would do -- get his own board of directors to investigate him. (I trust that we all know they cannot legally fire him.) Then once they find nothing worth more than a slap on the wrist, they can say they took this seriously, investigated it, and that it is time to move on. In their mind, this would completely disarm RG and all of the critics -- they can then accuse RG of being unforgiving, or even of slandering Bill. And all the while the real core issue will be completely unaddressed -- the heretical teachings. I hate thinking these things about people who profess Christ, but this is a cult. Six months from now Bill will be right back where he was -- teaching his heresy -- only now exonerated by the investigation of his own board.
The term I use is, 'grim satisfaction'. Satisfaction that perhaps a move towards righteous justice is in effect, grim because the entire situation is no laughing matter, and nothing to be necessarily happy about, yet there is a palpable relief.
Thanks, RG!!! Keep the information coming, don't stop until it's all shut down!! Even then I hope you stay up and running to help all of us who have years of healing yet to do so that we have a place to come for support! God bless!
It'll be his connection to the Duggars that gets this more coverage!
@Lana: I know & agree with your prediction, and I am sorry for the minors involved. I personally feel many children have been exploited, both privately and publicly, at the cause of ATI. The children of ATI have had to project and maintain a certain image to their parents and to their churches and social circles, for the sake of their parents and ATI. It's a heavy burden and responsibility for a child to help create the world of fallacies and fantasies that ATI wished to bring to fruition. It's a tough act to present (personal experience), whether the child is likeminded with ATI or is adverse to ATI: either way, it's a tall order and difficult life to maintain. So much "proof" was "in the pudding" when it came to ATI: parents were often known and recognized by the appearance of, number of, and work of their children. I hope only the best for the children of ATI.
Case in point: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/conservative-leader-bill-gothard-on-leave-following-abuse-allegations/2014/02/28/51f1aac6-a0bb-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html
They also mentioned the Huckabee, Palin, and Sonny Perdue connections...
I am saddened the statement by the board states 70's and 80's, only. I know one story speaks of the beginning of her time was 1992. I believe I read another girl's report stating dates in the late 90's and early 2000's.
Oooh, good catch Donna. Yes, I believe there is a continuation of the problem, not just something that happened back then.
YES!!! Wow, thank you RG for all you've done to humbly and prayerfully exposing Bill Gothard! I am so encouraged to see some sort of action being taken to question his integrity. Bless you all!
The board promises a response at an appropriate time, and in a "biblical manner."
There are various manners from the bible, that could be prescribed.
May I suggest Luke 17:2?
Last time he was placed on leave in the 80's, he still had a phone and kept showing up at work. It would take a full time hard-nosed person tailing him to make sure this doesn't happen again.
In any case, we serve a big God who at the right time (maybe not on this earth) will right wrongs, and in the mean time provide all sufficient grace and comfort to those who were hurt. Praise HIM that HE can bring beauty from ashes.
"Last time he was placed on leave in the 80's, he still had a phone and kept showing up at work. It would take a full time hard-nosed person tailing him to make sure this doesn't happen again."
But now we have camera phones and pictures can be sent over the internet. (In case anyone in the vicinity of BG is reading this and is sympathetic to these efforts.) Just saying.
As some of you might not know there are quite a few current board members that were board members with the first scandal and look where they still are today? Back then they didn't keep him accountable and how will they now? Also Dr. Stancil (a former and current board member) was caught having an affair, divorced his wife, and married the girl he was having an affair with. He is serving as a board member still...what kind of accountability will come from someone like him?
http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.com/2014/02/john-stancil-scripture-sex-success.html?m=1
Precisely why I think this is a political move to disarm RG and others. They will investigate, give him a slap on the wrist at most, maybe a nice vacation, or even find the allegations unfounded. He will be back and the case will supposedly be closed. They can then say they looked into it. Of course, the problem here is that the heretical teachings themselves will not be considered, because let's face it, if you are on the board, you have already bought into them.
Exactly,,,, when you are on the "board" of a cult, then you think like the leader of that cult so you can be on that board, so you would not have any other way to think when it comes to times like this to discern the way things should really be looked at....
The difference is that there is now a HUGE grassroots coalition led by RG that will not quit, as well as the internet for networking. Perhaps this will even lead to prosecutions and lawsuits in the near future. There must be NO LETTING UP until the man is brought down.
"[T]here are quite a few current board members that were board members with the first scandal and look where they still are today? Back then they didn't keep him accountable and how will they now? Also Dr. Stancil (a former and current board member) was caught having an affair, divorced his wife, and married the girl he was having an affair with. He is serving as a board member still...what kind of accountability will come from someone like him?"
Great questions! I sent them to Gil Bates with a plea to consider them.
No, none of the IBYC board members of 1980 still sit on the IBLP board. In fact, counting Bill Gothard himself, the board dwindled to three people in the last couple of years. All but those three are new members within the last 18 months or so. A few people associated with IBLP now, like David Gibbs and son, were around for the scandal, but not as board members.
THANK YOU RG! Hopefully this is the beginning to many having their eyes opened and much healing will take place. Perhaps calling IBLP headquarters and telling them of your support in the board placing Mr. Gothard on administrative leave and admonishing them to look at ALL THE EVIDENCE would be of help. Their phone number can be found on their website under "contact us".
Chiming in from D.C. here, after having read the "Recovering Grace" website links (to which I say 'bravo!' to writers and all commentators). If you use the following words, you'll find that this breaking news now appears on numerous websites. Google-search: Bill Gothard placed on administrative leave.
Great! Thanks, Jerrod. :)
Wikipedia update:
Has anyone been following the battle that has been going on regarding the editing of Gothard's Wikipedia bio? An edit would go up making mention of the current allegations against him, then quickly, someone would delete it, giving reasons such as "rumors" or "unreliable sources". There has really been a great deal of back and forth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bill_Gothard&action=history
It seems as though there are a few people working very hard to scrub things on behalf of Gothard. I imagine that he may have a number of technology "interns", whose job it is to try to squash anything out there about the controversy.
I thought it was interesting that when I checked on the Wikipedia Gothard bio page yesterday, at the top of the page was a a link directing people to a proposed amendment for disclosure requirements regarding paid editing:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment
This is the current new addition that was made just today:
"In February 2014 the Board of Directors of the Institute in Basic Life Principles placed Gothard on administrative leave while it investigated claims of sexual harassment against him.[24]"
Very interesting. Thanks so much for keeping us updated on the goings-on at Wikipedia, Kevin.
I remembering see those "wars" a long time ago. In the discussion page for Bill Gothard the discussions became quite heated. It is sad that some loyal Gothard fans are trying to hide the truth and white wash him but really isn't surprising.
At the risk of sounding snarky, doesn't the term "whitewashed sepulcher" come to mind?
Watching all of this really helps me better understand the Pharisees and how deceived they were.... I always wondered, "What was wrong with those people?" Some of their interactions with Jesus make a lot more sense now
Thank you, RG, for your careful and respectful handling of this. God bless you.
Gil Bates is on the board of directors! And the Bates and Duggars are loyal Gothard followers who are well-known in mainstream media.
I wonder if anything will come of this? Probably not because the hard core believers just view this as an attack from "satan" I do hope it gets them to at least do some thinking!
I imagine the Bates and the Duggars are getting more than a bit uncomfortable over this in light of their strong association with BG.
At this point, I just feel very sorry for them. This is really embarrassing and potentially very devastating for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm an adamant non-fan of ATI and BG's "insights," but when I put myself in their shoes, I would be really overwhelmed and furious right now. I have been in their shoes somehwat, as a former member of ATI, so I feel like I don't want to lose that compassion for them and other families that are current members of ATI. In this moment, I just feel really bad for them...
I agree. I actually sent an email to the Duggars saying that I would hate to see their reputation hurt by what Bill Gothard has done and that extricating themselves from their association with him as soon as possible would be a good idea. Not that I expected to them to take my advice, since they don't know me from Adam, but I thought if enough people wrote to them, they might consider it. They seem like really sweet people to me - just misled.
And one of the Bates daughters recently married the son of Dr. Paine...who is also on the board.
I just called the IBLP headquarters and asked if it is true that the Board place Gothard on administrative leave and was told yes it is true. The person answering the phone said he will be on leave until the investigation is complete.
Thanks for that confirmation, Patricia. :)
We have recent examples of other organizations with integrity who have removed leaders with these types of situations or closed down the organization entirely.
Board members with similar life situations might be a seriously questionable conflict of interest and worthy of consideration at to the ability of the IBLP board to handle these situations with integrity--akin to a fox watching a chicken coop.
I am a bit more doubtful of the integrity of the proceedings at this point.
I want to say THANK YOU! to RG for bringing this to a head. That said, I think that the transcript post has a lot to say about this.
1) It's the IBLP theology that leads to this sort of problem. Unless the theology changes, IBLP simply becomes a place where this sort of abuse happens over and over. As the article said, "Charlotte" went home and told her parents what happened, and her parents DIDN'T BELIEVE HER. That's the IBLP theology in action.
2) Bill needs to exit anyway. He's 79 years old. It really doesn't matter how he exits, but we can be sure he gets a nice severance package from IBLP, regardless of what the investigation uncovers, even under the guise of having only been paid $600 a month, and IBLP's responsibility to make sure he's provided for.
3) There is still the question of what happens if 1980 is repeated. Bill was removed, he seemed to respect the authority of the board, but then a political maneuver got him back with more power than before.
My theory, based on my new understanding of legalism vs. grace is that the damage will be minimized. Remember that Alfred seems to not care about the poison culture of sexual harassment at IBLP, but only "crossing the line", and I suspect that many others fall into the same line.
So, their first move would be to discredit "Charlotte" - BG never would have crossed THAT line. Then, they acknowledge the other indiscretions, but with the wink, wink understanding that playing footsie is really not THAT bad (compared to those other non-legalistic missions out there). Their second move would be to put a like-minded person in Bill's place - manipulative and controlling - with the mission on damage control. Bill's behavior didn't change, so there are more harassed girls who will come forward if they think they won't get blamed and further victimized. Thus, the board wants to put someone in who is going to threaten the staff. In all this, the board will need to maintain airs of being prayerful, doing the right thing and wanting "Biblical" justice (i.e. deny, blame, victimize)
All the more reason not to let up on either BG or his organizations (including any new leadership) if he actually steps down.
An excellent blog.
http://redemptionpictures.com/2014/02/28/bill-gothard-homeschool-cult/
Thanks for sharing!
There is a need to read between the lines of this announcement. Bill's own board of directors, which has no power to fire him, is going to investigate him. These folks ALREADY believe his teachings or they would not be on the board -- so forget about them looking into the teachings. Every one of them knows about 1980 and still chose to serve on the board. In addition, they certainly have heard about, or been approached about, the various allegations they are now willing to investigate -- these allegations have been going on for years. I would also assume they all know Bill personally to some extent. I'm not questioning the integrity or sincerity of anyone. But these are deceived people investigating the one who has deceived them.
Only now that RG has applied public pressure and it has been picked up by other news media are they announcing their intention to investigate. They never had cause to do so otherwise? Apparently they didn't think so. Not until it was forced upon them by all of the publicity. And really, they now have no choice. So I'm not ready to celebrate them doing this because it is the right thing to do. They are doing it because now they MUST do it to stop the bleeding.
We can let this thing play out, but I don't think God would have us be fools. I firmly believe that this is an attempt to disarm RG and all of the critics. They will do their investigation, and find nothing that warrants Bill's removal. The usual apology will be issued and Bill will be back as normal. Then they will have their answer for anyone who ever again brings up any of these allegations -- "We took them seriously and the case is closed. Why can't you forgive and move on?" Actually, if you think about it, this is quite clever. It is what the government does when a scandal breaks -- it is standard damage control. Probably recommended by a PR firm or lawyers.
In addition, how will the board of directors conduct this investigation? Won't they need access to both the materials and the PEOPLE that have contributed to this RG website? The women who were abused? I would hope that we can all see what is going on here.
All of this is exactly why, despite the true value of sharing all of the stories of abuse -- it got people's attention and may protect innocent ones in the future -- this is why the real core issue remains the TEACHINGS. Bill Gothard is a false teacher and a cult leader. No one on the board is going to consider that. And if the teachings remain in tact it will be easy for them to dismiss all of these stories of abuse in exactly the same way as the Gothard fans that have commented at this RG site have dismissed them -- water under the bridge, exaggerations, misunderstandings, outright lies, or unsubstantiated claims. In short, Bill will be back, either fully exonerated, or through the usual apology for minor, "moral failures." He will continue teaching his error and doing his thing. Bank on it.
There is no possible way that any open and honest investigation could conclude any thing other than Bill's termination, and a public apology for the sins. It won't happen. And since the teachings will not even be on the table, I cannot see anything changing. Having said this, I know that the warfare here is not with flesh and blood. I know that God can bring down the most formidable of evil kingdoms. So it is my hope that God would do whatever promotes the freedom He desires for each of us to have in Christ.
Agreed on this, Dave; I was initially thrilled, but the more I think about this, I'll return to "thrilled" when an independent , third party group of known integrity is allowed to step in and do a thorough and impartial review. Not holding my breath on that, but the LORD is LORD over all, no matter what.
Sorry if this has been brought up already but I've just skimmed comments. From ReligionNews article:
"One woman behind the Recovering Grace website, who declined to be named because she did not want to hurt the reputation of her husband who is a pastor, said 34 women told the website they had been sexually harassed; four women alleged molestation. She said she refers anyone whose story is within the statute of limitations to the police."
Charlotte is not the only one that has come forward with allegations of molestation, and I'm assuming the other 3 stories have yet to go public. I realize that they may not for good reasons, but I guess they may be in the vetting process.
Or they may be within the SOL, and therefore not able to speak publicly at this time.
Interesting...hadn't thought of that.
@Nancy2: What is "SOL?" I'm sorry if it is obvious... I just can't rack my brain enough for an solution to that acronym...! :) Help me out...
In this case SOL means "statute of limitations."
It can also have more... colorful meanings.
@Jim K.: Well, I doubted that the more colorful meaning was implied... :).
Brumby, Sorry was out.
Thank you MatthewS for answering.
Jim K I don't understand.
At the risk of offending the offendable, SOL is also a rather earthy, colloquial term that means, "S**t Outa' Luck". I've never see, SOL used to refer to the statute of limitations before.
which would apply to Gothard not the girls
Thank you Jim K. That was colorful indeed. It took me forever to figure out SOTI in my son's text.
I thought statue of limitations was apparent because it was in the quoted section of Shane's post.
if the SOL (statute of limitations) has expired on your claim then you are generally SOL (s**t out of luck) on getting legal relief for your claim.
Aha! I missed that when I read the article... That there have been 4 molestations come forward, so far. Thank you for pointing that out.
What? Where does it say that? I totally missed that... Girls/ladies, I am so very sorry to hear of the hurt you have experienced.
Even before I read the details of the dismissal and reinstatement of Bill in 1980, I was skeptical about this "administrative leave" thing. What does that mean? Is he at home? Is he in his office doing almost everything that he normally does, working on material, "counseling", "wisdom searches", answering letters, taking phone calls, etc.? Until I hear that he isn't allowed on IBLP property, I will suspect the latter. On another point, I was told that almost the entire board has been replaced within the last couple of years, and I think those replacements are picked by Bill.
This is 3rd hand info, but I heard from someone who has family at HQ that he is currently not allowed on IBLP property. Not sure if he's following it or not, but that's what he's supposed to be doing. Honestly in this age, it would be very easy for people to find out if he broke the rules and thus very damaging to his investigation. (It's in his best interest to comply) That said, that doesn't mean he isn't talking to people and involved from a distance.
What an ironic twist, it looks like the "mighty arrows" have found their mark.
Haha! Love the pun. And ironically, yes, looks like they/we have! :)
Oh, great. Now I can't get that song about the arrows from Childrens' Institute out of my head!!! Ugh! And I even recall all the hand motions! Boy, that guy's good. :/
Apologies if anyone already posted this. Christianity Today has picked up the story:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/february/bill-gothard-relieved-of-duties-during-sexual-harassment-in.html
The Washington Post just picked up the story in their Religion section.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/conservative-leader-bill-gothard-on-leave-following-abuse-allegations/2014/02/28/51f1aac6-a0bb-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html
Oh, baby... I'm hoping Bill is using make-up that can stand mega-wattage, things are going to be heating up a bit. Nice catch, nancy.
Yep. Thanks, Nancy! :)
I haven't kept up with Gothard for years. But I always thought he was off base with his legalistic spin on what holiness is. Isn't it amazing how people who are legalistic end up falling to the same sins they say they can help others out of? We need to stop with the law keeping and start to live with the grace of God in our hearts. What did Jesus say? It's what is inside a person,that is what makes them unclean,not the outside. Gothard and many,many other teachers who espouse law keeping think you can clean up a pig and he will stay clean. It's the inside human nature that has to be dealt with and that comes by attuning our ears,eyes, and hearts to God's love displayed through an old rugged cross.
Amen.
I love this piece by Middletown Bible Church which answers the question, "Is the Key to Living the Christian Life Found at Mount Sinai or at Mount Calvary?"
URL:http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/rulelife.htm
This is my prayer:
Dear Lord,
Please help those in the traps of this legalistic cult led by a corrupt man. Heal them. Save them. Rescue them. For those that are "out", give them mercy and grace. Wrap your arms around them. Give them courage and strength.
Lead Bill Gothard to repentance. May he be convicted by the weight of his sin.
In Your Name,
Amen
Of course the secular media will not care at all about Gothard's heretical teachings. It is a sad commentary, however, that most in the church don't care either -- only those who have been damaged by it seem to realize the depth of error. But everyone sure cares about the scandal aspect. But that being said, anything that will expose and put an end to this cult will do. God has His ways -- He knows how to bring down the kingdoms of Satan. I pray that many eyes will be opened.
I agree. The silver lining, I think, is that many people (though, sadly, not all) who wake up to BG's deception because of the sexual harassment/abuse will be much more open now to understanding how they have been deceived about God, grace, the gospel, and their relationship with and in Christ. God is faithful.
I share your frustration that Bill's teaching hasn't been shown in a brighter widespread scrutiny. That's today's evangelical landscape, though.
I completely agree.
"Mainstream" media will only play the salacious angles. Only point out the hypocrisy, the scandal. But in these times that is what people (both Christian, and non-Christian) hear. It's just like the phone transcript RG published the other day. The sheep (or the lemmings) won't begin to forsake the teachings, until they know the scandal. It is sad, but will probably prove "strategically" (for lack of a better word) sound.
I can't help wondering why IBLP leaked the news about Gothard being put on leave to World News -- they knew it would get picked up -- but have posted NOTHING on their website nor have they issued an official press release. Why would they do this if they intend to be transparent? Just asking......
Allen, I think you answered your own question. Who said anything about transparency ??
My guess is that they wanted to get the word out to a publication which they consider more friendly. Don't forget, in 1980 Bill brought in a friend from BJU. BG is no small-fry in evangelical circles... odds are there is an amicable connection over at World. If you can't control the big picture, control the shading.
It's like chalk-art: shading is everything, and don't forget the blacklight.
Yeah, and the secret stuff underneath that you can't see... until you TURN OFF THE LIGHTS...
Creepy analogy there bro
Could someone please provide us with the email address/es for the members of the board of directors? There's a contact form on the website but I'm not sure who that goes to.
The thread I started over at Homeschool World (the official website of the very popular Practical Homeschooling Magazine) entitled "Concern for families involved with Bill Gothard / ATI / IBLP" has (so far) not been deleted. It has had 217 views since it was started three days ago. I added info about the latest news with a link to the RNS piece and a list of the larger news outlets that have covered the story so far. I figure the more homeschooling parents who are informed about this, the better.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this, hoping that this time Bill's suspension lasts more than seventeen days. I have little faith that the board will do the right thing -- they have been aware of these concerns for a long time, years, and have chosen not to step in. The public efforts of Recovering Grace have gotten us to this point: last time the IBYC scandal relied on only a few voices crying in the wilderness, and this time the power of social media and the internet are on the side of truth. I hope that this will be enough to motivate the board to do what they have otherwise neglected, and will force them to stop turning a blind eye, but I'm not counting my chickens.
Looks like the way to contact the board is here:
http://iblp.org/about-iblp/contact-us
I'd like to see them receive an avalanche of messages telling them that nothing short of an independent investigation will be taken seriously. I agree with RG's recommendation of referring them to G.R.A.C.E (netgrace.org)
I do hope these girls have an abundance of moral support. THEY WILL NEED IT. I would assume they will be raked over the coals if things get to the court level.
Last month I predicted to a few friends that Gothard would be done within a month and that the Board would allow him a graceful exit. Correct, so far.
Here's how this attorney sees this playing out:
Bill will get his graceful exit. Notice the Board statement does not identify the substance of the investigation but only alludes to "assertions." It's unthinkable that the Board didn't demand (and get) the truth, which should have resulted in immediate termination. Nevertheless, that seems to be the case. A leave of absence buys them time.
Where will it go from there? The Board will "investigate." There will be no independent investigators brought in. At some future point, perhaps a month from now, the Board will announce that there has been a thorough, Biblical investigation, and that they are accepting his resignation to allow for healing and the Advancement of the Kingdom. The announcement will contain few (if any) details or recriminations. Gothard will profess his deep sorrow over "hurts" and will express his hope for restoration and healing. His confession will contain no specific admissions, but will include some vaguely-worded and conveniently malleable statement (e.g. "defrauded").
Gothard will step down and the Board will have no choice to make it real this time. He's done. Seriously, folks, he's done. The ministry cannot continue without its figurehead. The Board said it would appoint interim leadership...shoot, they should have done that before issuing the statement! No one from the outside will want to take over the organization and no one internally has been set up as the heir apparent. The departures of the rational families and attendees who will split will accelerate IBLP's financial troubles. It can't survive; it's bleeding cash already. It'll start selling off properties and will be spun down within a year.
If any of you wanted to own a hotel, there'll be a fire sale before too long.
or the whole thing packs up and moves to Mexico.
No! Mexico no!, Please, not here!!!
;):)
I hope you are right, but I am not so sure. This is a cult. And never underestimate the religious insanity of a cult. There are no rules other than to keep it going.
I did notice the part that said that they were losing money year over year. My thought was business as usual, minus Gothard, but perhaps part of the narcissism involved here is that Gothard was never able to plan for and train a successor. No one was good enough, and if someone was good enough, he would be a threat to Gothard's perceived superiority.
But, they still do have millions in the bank. I wonder how long they'll try to ride that out.
I think it'll be longer than a month. More like six. They are going to try and wait for RG to run out of material and then they'll wait a little longer for it to blow over. That's their hope anyway IMO
Maybe Alfred is in line to be apponted. NOT!!
Maybe Alfred is in line o be appointed. NOT!!
Lol. Another Alfred Burn. Whatever happened to Alfred?
He pops in now and again, looking for truth, and/or a sympathetic ear. He'll stir things up with 3 or 4 different posts, then hide out for a day or two. I'm sure with all those kids, he has to work sometime.
We know that you are just kidding, because by IBLP teaching, and Alfred's own admission, he clearly is not tall enough.
eva, William, greg and kevin - Even though you disagree strongly with Alfred, there is no reason to jest and joke about him, or post unkind things about him.
This is an open forum, everyone has a right to speak their mind, but your comments do not seem to be spoken in Christ's love.
Thank you.
alfred is in a lot of pain now so we need to reach out to him and let him work thru things and this site is a good place to do it for him. He seems like a loyal person to Bill and for that it maybe a good thing cause Bill will listen to alfred and in the long run things may work all out for the better.
Nick: I'm not joking or jesting with Alfred; I'm one of nine kids myself, so I'm not mocking that either. Chill, bro.
@greg r, I apologize - I misread your comment. Thanks!!
I will be thoughtful with Alred(hopefully); not a bruised reed HE will break...I don't want too be on a different page than that.
salvation peace.
Thanks so much R.G. so much. Concerning David's comment there is nothing more cruel in its core than religious man seeking outward perfection.David,Gothardism rejected Jesus years ago,who knows what they would scheme, but real intercessory prayer causes something more than heresy to win out.I see God if He brings His Sovereignty in here to humble the proud.His ways are higher than our ways,not just different.HIGHER. He's always heard the cry of the lowly the oppressed.How much more when the saints travail in Zion.Ruth Gabriel's prayers are all heard,so are yours.They outweigh the powers of darkness,even when it seemed that the great and powerful almighty potentate regent king gothard for awhile brushed them aside in the flesh.He'll choose should I say it a "lowly" woman to judge them all.Keep praying.I sure will.
An old parable brings me hope for situations like these, where the board is acting only because they must: Luke 18:18 "And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?"
I have appreciated the clear and careful manner in which RG has uncovered the awful truth about this incredibly harmful organization. The sooner justice is done the better. I don't believe this thing will be over until my generation (the ones who fell for this graceless, unscriptural mess) has humbly apologized for the part we played in leading our children into it and then disbelieving their cries for help. God have mercy on us.
I heard a different story tonight from someone in HQ - they said that Mr. G called a meeting and stepped down, and that ATI will not be continued - only IBLP...I have no way of verifying that and am not sure that it is true, but that is what someone said. It is third hand information.
He will do whatever he thinks is necessary for damage control and so that he can keep going. They probably need to do something like this anyways to stop the financial bleeding. Either way, I would be shocked and pleased to see Bill disappear.
That's an interesting rumor, Suzi. If that's true, I'm guessing the Board will have to release that news sooner rather than later (maybe today or tomorrow?), before it all leaks out second hand from current staff at HQ. Thanks for sharing. No one will hang their hats on it until it actually happens, but it would be an encouraging thought to think that Bill would step down on his own.
I would not be surprised if this were true -- it allows him to continue teaching his heresy as he has done for 40+ years. They are leaking cash big time anyways and something has to be done about it. I suppose that a smaller organization that teaches and practices heresy is better than a big one -- many young people will be spared damage. But if this is true it does not mean that another ATI-like enterprise cannot be started up later. It does not mean that there will be any confession of sin or false teaching. God works in strange ways and anything that reduces Bill's influence can only be a good thing.
That is someone's imagination, Suzi. No announcement of any kind has been made, other than that which was made public.
Do you go to meetings? I got this from a pretty reputable source...not someone just at headquarters, but actually a son of someone who was in the meeting with him...I don't think it is imagination...I just don't know for a fact that it happened, but if it did, it just might not be "public" information.
Alfred- what is your opinion about why Mr. Gothard stepped down? Was he forced to? If not, what do you think the reason was?
Congrats to Recovering Grace for keeping the pressure on and holding BG accountable. As a father of three now adult daughters I was shocked as I read the posted experiences of the young women who worked at HQs for BG.
I think a few things permitted this to continue as long as it did.
First, we forget how primitive communicati8ons were in 1980. No e-mail, no social networks, no world wide web. and few fax machines. Plus there were few victim support groups. Many victims thought that they were the only victims, when they were just the latest victim of a serial offender.
Second, the Christian community was reticent to go to law enforcement or file civil suits. Sadly, that's often needed to get the issue to the fore and dealt with biblically.
Third, most critically, good men - the Board majority, did nothing.
Truly, I believe God is intent to tell the story of the gospel in each of us, and to play out the drama He has written for the whole world. I struggle to understand by what miracle He brought me out: I was a legalistic, deeply entrenched, and I avoided Recovering Grace as a way of respecting Bill Gothard for his thirty-year influence over my family. God allowed a friend to post the stories of Dinah, Tamar, and other sexual abuse victims, and seeing the real Bible stories juxtaposed with the companion pamphlets I had exclusively used to study these passages before, I was moved to tears by the disparity between what I had been led to believe about scripture and what scripture actually said. I like to think that when I knew better, I began to be free, and sometimes it is very angering for me when others refuse to be similarly taught: like those who saw Jesus face to face and did not know him....even those trying desperately to follow who they believed God was! ("Have you been with me so long, Philip, and have not known me?") In this whole debacle, I find myself thinking of Nicodemus, who couldn't quite gain the courage to stand up to the legalism and the profound control among the spiritual leaders of the day, but went privately to Jesus at night. I don't believe Jesus thought there was any shame in this.....He ended up sharing with Nicodemus on that night the entirety of the gospel, tailored just to the needs of a man who was entrenched in legalism. I think of the anonymity of the internet as a way in which many people are likely "meeting Jesus in the night" as Nicodemus did, and I pray that God will use their curious peeks at Recovering Grace to quietly spell out the gospel for them, even the ones who, like Nicodemus, were supposed to be too pharasitical and too far gone. God is, as He has always, belaboring the gospel in many who are on the fence tonight, and oh, I pray for those who are finally listening..
Nicole, I am praying with you. I was thinking last night on this passage:
2 Now when John heard in prison about the deeds5 Christ had done, he sent his disciples to ask a question: 3 “Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?” 4 Jesus answered them, “Go tell John what you hear and see: 5 The blind see, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news proclaimed to them. 6 Blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me” (Matthew 11:2-6).
Jesus never scolded John the Baptist for his question. Instead He told them to give testimony of how He touches lives.
At Recovering Grace we have heard more than mr. Gothard's influence. We have heard how Jesus has touched lives.
I recall that RG staff referred one victim to legal authorities only to find that the statute of limitations had just run out. I can't help think that more recent victims have approached authorities as well and wouldn't be surprised if this announcement by the board was not precipitated by pending legal action against BG. Anyway, great job RG for exposing all this in as gracious a manner as you have. Now let's ALL email the board and strongly urge them to appoint an independent body, like GRACE, to investigate. One can only hope that a deluge of emails will open their eyes to the seriousness of Gothard's actions and that many people are fully expecting a fair, independent investigation.
Kevin,
I agree completely. There is too much evidence for the board to wade through on their own time. Gil Bates has 19 kids, you think he has time for this? In '80 the public at large didn't know about the situation so there was no public outcry to demanded they conduct a third party review. In 2014 the public knows what's going on.
The only way the board can hope to cover themselves from potential personal liability is to hire a third party. Guaranteed they have been briefed by Attorneys as to their personal liability. Doubt Gil or any other board members want to be in court personally. Bills' ultimate guilty verdict will come from not reporting abuse to the authorities. That will be easy to collaborate with witnesses.
To quote a famous line we all know: "It is finished."
Ok, first of all, I am neither a "follower" nor a devotee, but I have attended the Basic and Advanced Seminars more than once, involved my family in ATI, and attended a number of ATI conferences. I have also read a significant amount of BG's books and booklets, and I have received a tremendous amount of spiritual help and inspiration from ATI, IBLP, & from Mr. BG himself. I have never viewed his teachings to be on the level of "scripture," nor have I ever believed that his teachings were without error. But next I must say that after reading quite a large number of the posts here, I am quite appalled at the attitude of so many who seem to be thrilled that accusations have been brought, without any mention of grief, sorrow, or a spirit of humility. I have no knowledge of the truth or falsehood of the allegations against him, but assuming for the moment that they are true, where is the attitude of Christ when the people brought to him the woman caught in the act of adultery, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? So many of you seem to be thrilled that BG is being accused, but you have done nothing to give some basis or merit to your own credibility. How easy it is to cast stones! Anyone can anonymously post comments to a site without any accountability. Assuming, again, the truth of the allegations, I am thankful that sin is being exposed and prayerful that there will be proper accountability and repentance, but where again, is the spirit of humility and restraint? How can any of you with no personal knowledge be so eager or quick to jump on the bandwagon rejoicing and hoping that the entire ministry will go down in flames? Assuming, again, some error in the teachings, how many of you have studied or searched the Scriptures for yourselves to know what the errors are? I repeat. I am NOT a follower or a devotee or someone who ever thought that every word from BG was from God Himself -- I never hold a human being in that position. I also have some personal disagreements with some of his teachings. HOWEVER, I am also someone who has spoken with BG personally and received a huge amount of spiritual insight and benefit to myself, my family, and many others I know. How many of you have brought thousands of people to Christ? Assuming people were damaged by him and/or the ministry, what about all the people whose lives were delivered from darkness, set free from bondage, and brought to maturity? There were many men (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) in the Bible who sinned in a big way, yet God used them? Should we rejoice over sin, or take heed lest we go astray ourselves? How many of you even know half the extent of BG's personal sacrifice, devotion, and love of the LORD and of Scripture to even come close to matching that level yourself? I think we should all REPENT, examine our own lives, PRAY and even fast for him and for all who have been damaged in any way by him or the ministry, and for the testimony of Christ to not be damaged, but rather glorified. Before casting stones, let us all remember our own shortcomings and utter inability to do ANYTHING without Christ and His grace. Let's pray that all will be restored, healed, and for the furtherance of everything in his ministry that was truly of the Lord. Let us all repent and pray for the church and for America!
Hi Grace, I'm not sure what you mean by this, 'How many of you even know half the extent of BG's personal sacrifice, devotion, and love of the LORD and of Scripture to even come close to matching that level yourself?'
Are you saying that Bill is spiritually superior to the rest of us because he led a huge ministry? Or are you saying something else?
Bill's 'sacrifices' in light of many of these allegations, don't seem so sacrificial to me. It's not that hard to 'sacrifice' much when you have a multi-million dollar empire at your beck and call, surrounded by a constant bevy of adoring, hand picked, beautiful young women, yes men that, well, are yes men, the adulation of thousands, basically no cares in the world. I really don't see what's so sacrificial about it. I do apologize if anything about this seems offensive to you, but perhaps you are not yet aware of the gravity of what he has been accused of. Basically, if these things are true, he is a man who has taken advantage of a religion, and quite a number of 'minions' in the process, when you count in the young people whose often poor families actually PAID to work for the organization, and then were overworked, underfed etc.. That also does not count the 'fruit' of thousands of people who have been spiritually damaged because of this ministry.
All of that to say, I don't know that 'throwing stones' is necessarily what is going on here, at least, not for everyone commenting, since most likely none of us are guilty of doing what Bill has been accused of. We are not forgetting our sins here, we are rejoicing mostly that perhaps now, he will never be able to harm anyone else, especially not beautiful, vulnerable young girls, and then shut them up with his twisted teachings to protect his image.
(Which to me indicates that he only loves Scripture in that he can twist it for his own purpose. The teachings on 'not giving an evil report' and, 'don't take up an offense' came right after he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar last time, and those teachings were literally designed to shut people up.)
Again, I apologize if any of this is unpleasant to hear, or is otherwise offensive to you, it is not my intention to offend, or anything like that.
Megan, thanks for your comments. I reacted too quickly on the basis only reading 10-15 comments; and you're right, I reacted on the basis of no personal knowledge. I needed to do a lot more listening first. Since I was helped myself I just had the knee-jerk reaction to want to defend. Thanks for responding and helping me see my mistake.
Hi GraceP, thank you for hearing us out, I appreciate that. I can easily understand how you could see it the way you did though. It's an unpleasant situation no matter how you look at it. :(
I guess after 40+ years of lies, deceit, abuse and coverups people are tired. He has failed to meet the qualifications of Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. He has failed to repent and change his pattern of behavior. Today he is dealing with the consequences of his pattern of sin. Can he be forgiven, of course. Christ shed His blood for even the worst sinners. In Matthew 22 Jesus says the would be more prostitutes and tax collectors in paradise then religious leaders.
Larne Gabriel
Author "Ruth's Story"
Larne, very well said and very true! Thanks!
Amen, Larne!
There is another part to the oft-quoted story in John 8, and that is Jesus telling the woman to "go and sin no more". He called what she was doing sin, and told her to stop it. I don't believe that Jesus would have found her again in adultery.
Requiring that Bill Gothard "go and sin no more" does in fact reflect the attitude of Christ.
"Assuming, again, some error in the teachings, how many of you have studied or searched the Scriptures for yourselves to know what the errors are?"
As a 62 year old pastor, I have studied the scriptures for decades, encountered MANY people who have been directly damaged by the teachings of Bill Gothard, and can state, without apology or fear -- indeed, out of loyalty to Jesus Christ -- that Bill Gothard is a false teacher and a heretic. He teaches ANOTHER GOSPEL. As for the immorality, I believe it -- but if he were completely innocent of every single detail of these charges, he would still be a false teacher. I knew he was a legalistic heretic LONG before the internet came of age. As for the help you say you have received, it is completely normal for those who have been deceived by teaching to be thankful for that teaching. Bill will always have his followers, no matter what, but it is my prayer that many will be salvaged and find the grace and Truth that is in Jesus Christ.
Amen!!! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you sir, for this good comment. I appreciate how you composed it, very well said.
David,
Very well put. I agree 100%
Thank you, pastor, for your comments. You are prompting me to do more study for myself in Scripture. Perhaps I am the one who has assumed too much about BG teachings without studying for myself. May God's Word be rightly divided and the truth known.
Thank you, it is nice to see a pastor speak up!
"There were many men (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) in the Bible who sinned in a big way, yet God used them"
Does that mean that for God to mightily use us we must first sin in a big way? I thought those stories about the men who sinned big time were to be used to illustrate what NOT to do, like a warning, "be careful, don't do it this way" with the final admonition being that even though we fail, God will still be there to make diamonds out of our dust.
Some people used Gothard's teachings just as you do and did not make them the first and last in their life...but there were/are those who in wanting to be so obedient to the Word of God trusted BG's teachings as though they were the only true and non-optional way to please God and get His blessings. Thus there are many hurt, confused and broken followers.
esbee, thanks. You make a very good point about learning from the sins of men in Scripture what NOT to do. I will say I had never known or understood that many have been "hurt, confused and broken" by BG teachings. I'm reading and learning now. Thanks.
GraceP, first please read this in a calm and caring tone as that is the spirit in which I am writing.
One is not to walk with the Lord comparing themselves with others along the way.
2 Corinthians 10:12-13
New International Version (NIV)
12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13 We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you.
Our boasting is to be in the Cross of Jesus.
Galatians 6:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Being crucified to this world means we do care about the Kingdom of God and how the false doctrines impact those who are a part of God's Church, including Mr. Gothard. Many have tried to reach out to him and solve these issues.
Grace what you are asking others to do is justify themselves in your eyes. You are asking us to compare foolishly. It is the "Who do you think you are in comparison to Mr. Gothard?" attack. In your post you are casting stones. You are assuming others are not praying. You are assuming others have not studied Scripture. You have assumed no works, no sacrifice. no care, no love.
Now let me ask you something. Where have you learned to judge the hearts of those you do not know?
"Now let me ask you something. Where have you learned to judge the hearts of those you do not know?"
Good point Nancy2. I have witnessed Gothard followers judge others that they do not know so many times, and cause great hurt in doing so. It is not surprising, and to be expected, when they are taught that standards are the measure of godliness, not a person's heart.
Nancy2, thank you for your comments and I gladly receive your message to me. I was no doubt too quick to judge. Please forgive me.
There is nothing to forgive. I was never offended. We are all being transformed by the Holy Spirit in His perfect timing. We all have so much to learn about our Savior and how He wants us to love one another. We are of the same body. I agree it is a difficult time and much prayer and care is needed.
GraceP:
Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. You were not directly or aggressively affected by BG, and you feel that you were only positively affected. Count your blessings, and allow those of us, including myself, who have been on the receiving end of his direct and indirect abuse to have a voice, process our pain and grief, and warn others of the dangers of BG's teachings and personal conduct.
Brumby, thanks for your response and I'm sorry for speaking too soon. I do not want to silence anyone's voice. Please forgive me.
No problem! :) Thanks for following up. Peace! :)
GraceP,
All of the things you say about Bill Gothard could also have been said for A.A. Allen. Indeed, they still are. I know because I've had to listen to it--people still make the claims that he was the anointed of the Lord, etc. I have great difficulty believing that due to the eye-witnesses I know who reported his doings. I am not saying that either of these never did any good. I'm just saying that at some point, we are called to either follow or not follow a prophet or spiritual leader. This is provided to us by God in order to test us to see if we will follow truth or rather hold to lies.
As far as personal knowledge, I can assure you that not all accounts of BG and other issues in IBLP/ATI have yet been shared. I know this for a fact.
Thank you to everyone who responded to me. After posting, I read a lot more on this site and have to say I simply had no knowledge of any of the things that had happened. I do not wish to cast stones either, so I must repent for speaking too soon. I think it is just hard for anyone to believe allegations about someone that is contrary to their outward persona, so I had wishfully hoped that the allegations were wrong. I am sorry for saying anything that was hurtful or wrong to others, many of whom know so much more than me, since I really have zero personal knowledge at all. I do commend RG for what seems to be a humble concern for all involved and passion for the truth, rather than a desire to simply defame someone. I do believe we should all humbly consider ourselves, but I should not assume other posters are not doing that. Again, as it appears I spoke too soon, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Let's just all continue to pray that God will bring restoration to all concerned. In Christ's love, --g
Thank you GraceP, for your humble and gracious attitude, I can't tell you how much that means here!
GraceP, you made my day. I read your initial comment, and every follow up comment as well.
Your humility is refreshing. Blessings!
It really frustrates me when religious people insist on confusing crimes and sin. Yes, I sin. No, I do not commit crimes.
Nicole, I am a former ATI parent who has spent the last couple of days apologizing to my adult children for the legalistic way I had raised them. With each confession comes a look of surprise or a realization of things that effected them. I have said on another thread that "If I knew then what I know now, how would my life be different?" My 5 youngest children are realizing that they may not have existed if my wife and I had never gone to our first seminar in September 1980 and then again in 1986/87. I might still be up to my eyeballs in debt! The list could go on and on.
So, I learned many good things during my 19 years of IBYC/IBLP/ATIA experience that I feel has enriched my life. At the same time I was under a whole lot of bondage that was totally because of Mr. Gothard's erroneous teaching and his masterful way of twisting scripture. If God could make a donkey speak to make a point, He could also use Mr. Gothard/ATI/IBLP to do some good! I am sure that after the donkey spoke it's very last word it went back to being just a donkey. Mr. Gothard went back to being a pervert!
I in no way rejoice in these revelations, but Mr. Gothard needs to resign! He also needs to repent and to reconcile with all those he has damaged. This includes these wounded young women as well as the young men and women he sent home in shame for far, far less than his many sick transgressions!
KH: Thanks for sharing about your life journey which included ATI/BG. I think that is very mature to be able to look through hindsight, calling out the pros and cons as you now see them. I'm also a fan of thinking in shades of gray, and not black and white - a skill which I developed after exiting ATI. I can identify with you and look back on the way I was raised by my ATI parents, and pinpoint those pros which I would never have experienced had I not been homeschooled or in ATI. It is very empowering for me to be able to allow myself to be happy and thankful for these things, while understanding that I'm not dismissing the cons and abuses. Keep being an awesome parent! I'm sure your kids will be understanding and forgiving, if not immediately, then with time. I know that I sure would be.
Brumby, all six of my kids are great! The oldest four are all on their own life journey's with their respective families. Our 5th born is at a Baptist University about 25 miles away and home most weekends and our 6th born is a home-schooled sophomore. All six of them have been very open and forgiving and realizing the same as you,they had many opportunities that would have never happened had we never homeschooled or been involved in ATI.
KH, Thank you so very much for your heartfelt post -- both in response to me, and your comments on other threads, which I have read. I cannot tell you how thankful I am for the work that you are doing in seeking out your children, talking to them about both the good and the bad, and weighing with them the gains and costs of everything that has transpired over these years. I know of hundreds of second-generation ATI students whose hearts are aching tonight, wishing that their parents would engage in similar conversation with them; wishing for the validation of knowing that their parents are willing to discuss these things; wishing that they could speak their concerns, hurts, questions, and spiritual questions without fear of reprisals. I am filled with hope when I read of parents who are, as you are, seeking out their children with the vulnerability that it takes to evaluate these things. The way that God has worked in your family -- because of? in spite of? -- Bill Gothard is astonishing, and although everyone is clamoring to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is perhaps wise advise: I don't know -- there is no denying that for better or worse, hundreds and thousands of events have transpired because of this man, and it is such a tribute to your humility, and creates such a profound feeling of hope in me, that you would be willing to sit down with your children to frankly discuss your own family history, and to decide to listen to God above man, even in evaluating the paths your lives have gone up to this point. Thank you, very much.
To those who hear they are "casting stones", you may appreciate this piece, which denies that the writer is casting stones concerning the fall of Doug Phillips (for having an affair/ clergy sexual abuse with a woman who worked for him). But even though it is not about Gothard, it still applies: http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/the-stones-you-cast-the-tables-you-built/
An idle question for the RG Moderators. Are you tracking your traffic? I would be curious how much of an increase in new visitors the site is getting. Hoping the word is spreading more.
They are and it's insane. It's up to them to share the numbers publicly if they wish, but I heard numbers are huge.
Does anyone know the status of IBLP Mexico? Has Gothard also stepped down from that part of the organization? Is there any effort to notify families involved over there of what is happening?
http://www.iblp.org.mx/
http://staddonfamily.com/2007/02/22/a-trip-to-paradise/
Whenever anyone says, "well, we didn't follow Gothard's teachings without question" as a way to explain why other people got hurt and they didn't, it seems to be that they are openly acknowledging Gothard is a false teacher. Yet they try and use that argument to blame the person who was hurt by the false teaching instead of the teacher.
It just seems really strange. Cognitive dissonance is fun :/
Not really strange--just shows the diversity of how people follow a teacher and different learning styles- couple that with how serious some people are about following God and pleasing Him you will end up with some blindly following the teachings. Others will follow wlhat they agree with and chunk what they disagree with. Some reject it entirely.
I see what you mean, TiaraLi. They're contradicting themselves. They don't want people to hold Gothard accountable so they deflect the blame for what he did onto the people he did it to. Sounds like a page out of Gothard's playbook, doesn't it? These people have apparently been influenced by his manipulations much more than they are aware of.
I hope that more individuals get the courage to speak out against the abuse that they endured at Headquarters while under the authority of Bill Gothard. Gathering evidence is crucial at this point.Is it possible to start a petition to request an independent organization to do the investigation of Bill Gothard? As many of you have stated, it is highly unlikely that the Board at IBLP will be emotionally, intellectually or spiritually objective enough to do a productive investigation.
Let all this be a caution to never again follow a man who has found "some new thing" that no one else has ever discovered. God's complete, infallible, and living word is the only sure guide for our lives, and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Amen!
Lee, you can start an online petition at www.change.org. There is currently a petition to remove a Catholic Bishop for allegations of sexual crimes against children. That petition has 155,000 electronic signatures. I am an "outsider", so I don't think it is my place to start the petition, but I would certainly sign it. The petition could be directed to the BOD of IBLP.
I have been thinking a lot about the mothers of ATI and IBLP whose precious children/daughters were abused by Bill Gothard. Where does a mother go with this trauma? In light of the current situation with Dylan Farrow, the adopted daughter of Woody Allen, and now the disclosure of so many ATI women, I believe that the Lord may be trying to do a deep inner healing in our nation. So many children are being molested as we speak. I found a comforting website for mothers. www.mosac.net. This site, Mothers of Sexually Abused Children (MOSAC) discusses the complex issues around the disclosure of an abused individual and especially the reasons our society struggles with believing the disclosures of the abused. I hope this helps any mothers reading Recovering Grace blogs. Pray for the mothers too. They are also hurting. Thanks.
Lee, There are so many hurting women. I think the time has come for women to be part of the solution. Look what the men have been covering up for so many years. It is time for women to claim their place as co-heirs.
Well, but here's the thing. Overwhelmingly so, ATI and/or IBLP involvement is spearheaded by *mothers* who are very burdened by raising good kids and creating an ideal childhood for them. I think a lot of these parents won't believe the claims brought to them by their children, because the implications are huge. The implications are that everything they constructed, everything they force-fed to their child and the people they held up to them as gods were the very avenues for deep hurt and damage in their children's lives. So no, I don't look for a lot of mothers to accept their daughters' (or sons') allegations. This will tear a lot of families up.
I also think that it may be helpful if Recovering Grace contact some well established advocacy groups, even those secular in nature, to help with the victims of Bill Gothard's abuse. Some of the girls were underage when BG abused them. The crime of pedophilia was committed against them. The Board of IBLP cannot be trusted to objectively investigate BG. Their investigation would be a conflict of interest. I understand that Recovering Grace was originally intended to deal with the legalism of BG's teaching. But now God has grown it into a safe haven for those who have been sexually abused. Fortunately, many advocacy groups existed that would be gracious and willing to support Recovering Grace educate their bloggers with the dynamics of planned grooming of sexual abuse and the subsequent damage inflicted upon the victims. One group is Darkness to Light. www.d2l.org Keep searching for answers. And thank you for your service to the wounded.
Excellent advice. One small correction so that your main point doesn't lose credibility. Don't confuse "under age" with "pedophilia." The latter involves pre-pubescent children. Gothard's victims were post-pubescent. I am in no way excusing his behavior with the girls who were under 18 or with the young women who were over 18. And I believe he committed crimes with both age groups. But what he did does not constitute pedophilia and we shouldn't use the term in this case. Sexual harassment and sexual molestation are the terms which would describe the acts which have been described at this website (both of which are abhorrent and criminal).
Post-puberty it's called 'ephebophilia' and it's still a sign of a perverted mind. Most people don't know the term for this, so they substitute pedophilia.
One last thought. I have a good friend who was molested by a Catholic priest when he was young. He grew up and became a homicide detective for a metropolitan police department. At 40, his life started to unravel and a wise counselor asked him if he had been sexually abused when he was young. He started to share, for the first time, and the silence was broken. He used his skills as a homicide detective and unraveled 200 additional incidences of abuse that his priest had inflicted upon children. This priest was one of the most adored and respected priests in the different parishes where he served. Remember the courage it takes for victims to speak out about their abuse by a trusted, revered clergy. I'm praying for the victims.
Thank you for sharing that story. Powerful.
Unreal. Kudos to your friend for being willing to do what needed to be done.
Today, in a very large Southern Baptist church in Texas, over 1200 Christians prayed for the healing of the people hurt by Mr. Gothard and his teachings.
We also prayed that justice will be done in this matter on earth and in the eternal life to come.
I didn't see a dry eye near me, but then, I was crying and praying too hard to think of us, just thinking of you, the once- victimized, the healed and healing, the strong and just in a most unjust situation.
God bless and keep you all. You know who you are, and God knows.
Best,
Amanda
Wow... this is amazing. This is powerful.
Praise God for your church! Our so far is responding by not talking openly about it and preaching that BG needs to be restored. I'm not sure how I feel about such response, because I would like to see justice and the people affected healed.
@wingshadow: Thanks for providing a live link with your username - you have a beautiful voice and I will be trying to obtain your CD! Good luck on your musical endeavors.
What took soooo long!! This is pathetic and appallingly. So many families deceived and confused!!
FROM MITCHELL CHAPMAN
If you go to the protection of children website for the catholic Church
of Chicago they have a whole bunch of info. There are a lot of things the Catholic Church is doing now that we can learn from so we do not have to start from scratch. The main thing is that the Institute needs to provide counseling for those that have been abused. Maybe browse the
website and than come up with a game plan as to how you want to proceed.
I would not trust IBLP to provide counseling. IBLP is Bill Gothard, and Bill Gothard is IBLP. Although I do agree there are things we can learn from the situation in the Catholic church, at this point.
I think they should be required to pay for counseling, but that counseling should be with licensed professionals that the individual victim feels comfortable with.
the name of the website is protectandhealchicago.org. They also do what
you said about the individual victim should be with a counselor that they feel comfortable with. This is a project of the catholic church in Chicago.
That might work, Tiara.
Predator behavior follows a very predictable pattern. It starts with seeking whom he may devour. I keep thinking of the young woman's story who said that she was quietly sitting next to her parents at a ATI conference when she noticed Bill Gothard smiling at her. After the conference, he approached her parents and asked "invited" her to join him at Headquarters.
The Six Stages of Grooming:
1. Targeting the victim
2. Gaining the victim's trust
3. Filling a need
4. Isolating the victim (inviting them to Headquarters)
5. Sexualizing the relationship
6. Maintaining control
Bill Gothard may go down in history as one of the most devious predators in history. He created an entire organization around fulfilling his sexual fantasies. Creating conferences to target victims, complementing parents to gain trust, filling a need by making the girls feel special, sexualizing the relationship by getting them to tell their secret sins at Journey and during counseling sessions followed by rubbing them, playing with their feet, giving front hugs. And finally, maintaining control by spiritualizing all of his behaviors.
Pray for the victims.
^ This is probably the most insightful comment I've read all day.
I was saddened to hear the news today of Mr. Gothard. I have not been online for the last couple of days and someone told me today. Because I am not so foolish as to believe everything I read on the internet--I started trying to find out out what sort of actual allegations there were. But after reading your posts and about this website--I am feeling a lot better. I knew something did not feel right about this whole thing. New seminar fodder---Advanced Conflicts for Bitter Old People.
Bill Gothard, Jack Hyles and friends, Bob Jones and friends..Just to name a few. One recurring theme I hear after things are revealed…"well he was just a man". I'm so tired of hearing that go-to phrase. It sounds very much like an excuse, as if men are powerless to not act on their temptations, powerless to make the right decision, powerless to stand up for the weak. Really??? Because I know a lot of "just men" who are true men of character. THESE people are not "just men". They are serial abusers, philanderers, sexual abusers, mind controllers, manipulators, predators, narcissistic, deceitful, greedy, dangerous people.
I want to say that we are so grateful for all of the teaching that we have received from IBLP. The Bible says that the "wisdom from above is first pure, peaceable, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits." We have gained much godly wisdom and have experienced the sweet fruit of the wisdom from above. We learned to meditate on God's Word and our lives have become so enriched and we have been able to share many amazing insights from His Word with others. Over the years I would meet people who were involved with IBLP and ask them if they meditated on God's Word and most did not and I always wondered why when it was such a blessing in our family. Also, I noticed that so many people who were critical of Bill Gothard or IBLP had never even gone and most did not seem to have a great delight in the Lord but they were more indulgent Christians, all under the guise of "grace". We have sent many young people up to Journey and their lives were indeed transformed and many gave their lives to the Lord. The fruit that I have seen has indeed glorified our Lord.
@Anne, Meditation in God's word is sure to bless anyone who practices it! The credit should be to God alone. I would encourage you to read much further into this site; the stories here are also the 'fruit' of Bill Gothard and IBLP. Blessings to you as you do so.
Thanks for sharing your experience. You may want to read through the sight and spend some time considering other's experiences. I think you'll find them to be different than your. I'm sure you'd agree that a million good experiences and only 1 bad one would it would still behoove the follower of Jesus to seek reconciliation over the one, You might even meditate on Jesus teaching about leaving the 99 sheep for the sake of the one. I think what you'll find here is much greater percentages of harm, violation of positions of authority, lies, improper interaction with female subordinates, and other things. The good that you experienced from Bill Gothard's teachings really says nothing of others experiences and what should be done about them. The Scriptures are abundantly clear about this.
I am, in your eyes I imagine, one of those indulgent Christians, a pastor even. I have come to believe that God is in fact an indulgent Prodigal God; A God who lavishes grace upon sinners. A God who doesn't separate his children into the so so and the best. I burned my music twice. Now I repent of being so foolish and shortsighted about God's good gifts and the beauty of Creation. I believe in a God who throws parties for wayward sinners who've squandered their inheritance and shamed their father's names. A God who is so is so loving he invites his self-righteous jerk of an older son to enjoy the party as well. A God who is so forgiving that his law keeping righteous son can't stand it and shames him by refusing to join in the celebration. A God who comes in the flesh and breaks out the best wine when the party is already rowdy. A God who's grace is big enough for power hungry narcissistic abusers, but whose grace is most readily received by the lowly, the prostitute (Luke 7, Matt21), the religious traitor (Luke 19), the spiritual chicken (Matt 26), the murderer (Paul), etc. A God who is a defender of the lowly and the vulnerable. A God who the righteous people don't need, and he didn't come to call; not because they are righteous enough (Matt 5.20) but because they don't like a God so free with his gifts.
My own testimony is that Gothardism was soul killing for me. I hated being a Christian mainly because I thought God was constantly annoyed with me because I couldn't keep up with Gothard righteousness; all his new laws; all his better ways of living; all his additions to the free grace of Jesus for the sinner-for me.
I am so thankful that someone finally taught me the Scriptures in their context; that someone walk me through how Paul's teachings in Rom 6 relate to his teachings in Rom 7 and 8; that someone walked me through the Galatian heresy, which just happens to be centered on one of Gothard's own teachings about circumcision being the way to be a better Christian. Paul say it's a damnable false gospel.
What this site shows is that my experience is not simply shared by 1000s but that it pales in comparison to 1000's of other's experiences.
"indulgent Christians"
That's an interesting term. Calling others who don't keep your standards "indulgent". This is exactly the type of fruit that I have personally witnessed from those who think that they are "blessed" by his teachings; judgement of others who don't keep Gothard's standards.
Please take the time to compare his teachings against Scripture with an open mind. They don't hold up.
Since I listened to Third Day on the way home, and had a glass of highly fermented Chilean grape juice with dinner, I am feeling utterly disqualified to answer...maybe tomorrow.
Sounds pretty indulgent to me.
Anne I am grieved by your comment.
I grew up in the IBLT/ATI lifestyle. We got up early, did the 5 Psalms and a Proverb every morning before breakfast. We meditated, we memorized, we "delighted in the Lord". I had more biblical knowledge than you could shake a stick at...and God still viewed me the same way he views "indulgent Christians": as a sinner, whom he passionately loves.
My story is long (and I won't go into it now) but I left the program disillusioned and knowing there was no way I could live up to all that was expected of me. I'm very grateful to a God who reached down and said "I love you despite your filthy rags. Lean in on me and you will become a new creature---not by any of Heidi's works but because of the work I will do in you.
I pray, in love. you will can find the freedom of an being an "indulgent" Christian...because it is unbelievably amazing.
Heidi, Thank you for your comments. However, Jesus has been my desire and the delight of my soul. I was not in ATI but learned to meditate on God's Word and got up and had my quiet time with the Lord and I loved it. I know that it may sound unusual to some but I honestly can not remember the last time that it was even a discipline. I love His Word and I love being with Him. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore do not be subject to a yoke of slavery". The "indulgent" lifestyle does not even appeal to me. He became poor that I might be rich. I would rather become poor that others might have the riches of Christ. I am glad that you have found Christ or have returned to your first love if indeed you knew Him before. He is good and longs to be gracious to those who belong to Him. I like to think of it this way, He calls us His beloved because He wants us to "be loved" by Him and He says that we belong to Him because He wants us to "be longing" for Him. May you contine to know His riches blessings and the true freedom we ahve in Christ. I love you, sister. Anne
"the indulgent lifestyle doesn't even appeal to me"
Luke 18:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Anne tell us more of your good works.
Anne, my above post was very wrong.
I do not understand your assumption that others are not meditating on Scripture. Your use the phrase 'indulgent lifestyle' came off very offensive to me. It just felt a little too self righteous. I don't know you and it was wrong for me to act on those feelings without a better understanding of who you are.
I'm happy for your joyous relationship with The Lord.
Once again I apologize for my above comment. I have no excuse. I was wrong. May Our Heavenly Father continue to bless you.
Hello Anne. I am very happy for you that you see blessing and good things in your life. I would suggest that those blessings came from God, and nothing else, as He is the giver of every good and perfect gift. Meditation of Scripture is in Scripture itself, so while you may have received your strongest impressions of the importance of meditation from IBLP, you cannot say that if it weren't for IBLP, you would NEVER have discovered the truth of it, to say that would limit the power of God, which I'm sure you can see for yourself would be wrong.
I was raised with the teachings of ATI and IBLP almost from birth, and I wish with all my heart and soul that my family had never even heard of those programs, or affiliates, and I am not alone in that wish. The very existence of this website is confirmation of that. Please understand that this website, and the articles in it, are given by those who were very much involved with the program, with (to the best of my knowledge) little to no input from those who were never really affiliated with it. (With exception from the occasional comment.) This website is also the fruit of Gothard's teachings, fruit that cannot be ignored. Any good that has come to a person's life through his teachings, is because God works all things for good.
My walk with God was all but nonexistent for years, as I unknowingly lived to please the false god of ATI and IBLP doctrine. Having been raised in it, I never knew anything else, and the 'be a Berean' Scripture was understood from the unspoken view of verifying everything Gothard taught, rather than holding up his teachings to Scripture, to see if his teachings were indeed Scriptural. To question him was to question God.
For the sake of time, I won't go into detail of how long it took me to realize the emperor had no clothes, but I was terrified of displeasing God by facing the facts I could no longer ignore, that Something.Wasn't.Right. about Gothard's teachings. (I suppose watching almost all the families I knew, including my own, implode left and right, had something to do with me realizing that something was wrong with the teachings. All these people were faithful to his teachings.)
I have since been able to identify that many of his teachings have SOME truth, which is why they seem so wonderful, but a partial/twisted/half truth is a lie in my book.
While I don't know what your idea of an 'indulgent' Christian is, I don't consider myself to be one, and am rather conservative still. While I believe my salvation is secure, I don't believe I can do what I want and be 'covered' just because I'm saved, I've never believed that, but finally am learning to rely on the Holy Spirit rather than 7 principles for this, or 10 principles for that. How we limit God with such teachings!
My walk with God did not thrive until I left ATI and ran to Him. I will NEVER attend another seminar, why would I put myself back in such spiritual bondage, when I finally found Jesus, and had that peace and joy that I heard everyone else talk about for so long?
I do want to thank you for your tone. Many times when other people make comments that are similar to yours, they are decidedly ungracious, yours seems to be kind to me, so thank you for that. :)
Dear Anne,
I’m sorry that I was not online when you were making a stand.
I will begin with the fact that I too, experienced many years within the Institute, at every location both domestic and abroad. I am grateful for my experience and have appreciated many aspects of Mr. Gothard’s ministry. However like the Bereans, my family searched the Scriptures to see if what was presented was accurate. In a some cases Mr. Gothard took a more idealistic approach than our family, however I often felt he was probably ‘more’ accurate, than our interpretation.
For argument sake let us assume that some of the stories you have compiled are not completely true. I think it is fascinating to observed the nit picky nature you have dissected Mr. Gothard’s presentations, yet when it comes to testimonies, you jump on anything negative. I will not pick apart Charlotte’s account, until Mr Gothard makes a statement. However, if her story is true, shame on me; and Mr Gothard should go to jail! If however her account is not accurate shame on you. I do find it rather telling when you attempt to be “Biblical” by including the the testimony of two “witnesses” who saw nothing, yet acknowledge a lack of credibility by being a “peeping tom” and having motivation consumed by jealously.
Continuing with my above assumption, the next concern to address is credible...playing footsie, hugging, holding a hand, or even touching one’s hair on the head. In today’s society these gestures are no longer appropriate. However you have to consider that in the past they were...I can think of three older men in full-time ministry who have mentored me and proven faithful, yet could have been accused of similar sexual harassment had they worked for an organization like Levi’s or Apple. Every Sunday our pastor is out of the lobby hugging people. During my overseas experiences people greeted me with kisses and frontal hugs, which made me extremely uncomfortable. In ATI I experienced back rubs, neck massages and even someone walking with their arm around me. Mr. Gothard said numerous times that since he could not have children, we were his children and often treated us as such.
Then there are allegations of twisted Scriptures. For every critic you produce, I could produce one who hermeneutical agrees. Let’s face it, part of the reason there are so many denominations is that “we” cannot agree on everything. In my case having stricter rules protected me from moral failure and probably lots of you. RG seems to be embracing the cultural with christianity, for example how many of your follow would state that homosexuality is okay. Modern critics cite that was Paul’s opinion rather than God’s. To me the ranting on this page is like a herd of bison heading for a cliff. My question is who’s the “Indian?” Is it Mr. Gothard or is it you?
It is incredible to me that a webpage entitled “recovering grace” demonstrates neither. However, when you put this title in an anagram generator some more appropriate terms arise: Rage Coercing Rev., Rancor Rec Veggie(s), (the) Grievance Grocer, or Grace Recovering. Thank you Dana Carvey.
Joe,
You do realize that Mr. Gothard was decades older than these girls don't you! Did any of the parents of these young ladies know that Mr. Gothard was being "fatherly" with their daughters? Several of them refused to believe THEIR OWN CHILDREN citing that there is no way a "Man of GOD" would do such a thing! SHAME ON MR> GOTHARD! SHAME ON THOSE PARENTS! SHAME ON YOU!
There are 34 young ladies to date who have given account of Mr. Gothard's inappropriate activities. 34! Not just one or two but 34! Charlotte has now allowed her name to be made public so she is very serious about her story. Even Mr. Gothard himself admitted to improper behavior back in 1980 along with an addiction to masturbation. He sent many a young person home for far, far less! He destroyed their lives as they shamefully returned to their heart-broken families!
Hello RH
Thank you for your response. Believe it or not but I have been in the inner-sanctum of the Institute. I’ve been in “the” van on rides when Mr. Gothard, took off his shoes and because of the proximity of feet played coed footsie. I had him fall asleep on me and somehow still carry on a conversation. Alas, I too was sent home and then later given a second chance…which I made good on.
I think my biggest shock and your perceived smoking gun are the parents who utilized what they wanted to have their way. I pray that my parenting does not follow those you mentioned. SHAME ON ALL OF US!
JOE DS
Jo I'd like to point out that you didn't actually address the question KH asked. It seems like you're saying that what Gothard did in your presence is no big deal, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Does what you observed Mr. Gothard doing matter?
I'm interested, since I'm just an attender not one who reached the "inner-sanctum", if you don't mind sharing; what were you sent home for? What does it mean to make good on your second chance?
I would like to point out that you're violating one of the principles by assuming you know the parent'e motives and then making accusations regarding your assumptions, but oh well.
Shane,
I'm sorry I missed answering the questions KM queried. Believe it or not, I am not here to be a jerk or light of numerous accusations. Especially when those accusations have not been responded to by IBLP. I had heard that Mr. Gothard tried to meet with this site, but RG refused. Ultimately, I want to point out that your Parry Mason evidence is not as strong as you believe. The general mass leaning of this site would insinuate that it's commentators have a propensity of being deceived...if what you allege is true. Based on my experience having been around awhile, I'm starting with the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.
Shane you mentioned you are a pastor of a church, pretend there is a false accusation against you. Would you want people who 'knew' you to come to your aid? I am pretty sure I knew Mr. Gothard.
I did try to look over the site for KM's accusations of self gratification, which yes would be a be a major red flag. My search revealed nothing. Yes I do agree the behavior mentioned by the 34 is creepy and appropriate, however my point is that a whole lot has changed in the last 50 years along the lines of what is considered inappropriate. I realize that I am on a sinking ship, it appears you will be successfully in taking him down. I just wanted to stand up and say what if you were wrong? What have you done?
What did I get sent home for? Well, I established a very close relationship (Keep It Simple Stupid) with the opposite sex. I actually thought I could get by with it, but my conscience beat me down. It was convicting me daily and nothing I did could alleviate it's pressure. That is another reason why I read those testimonies with skepticism. Lust never stands still it either gets caught or it grows. I don't see how Mr. Gothard could maintain appearances for so long if he had a searing conscience.
Joe,
Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate it.
I want to also take this opportunity to apologize to you and Alfred specifically (and if there have been others) for the snarkiness of many of my posts. I truly am sorry for treating you with less kindness than I know Jesus does for me when I am at odds with him. I know you guys don't know me but I do ask your forgiveness. Alfred, I have genuinely prayed for you and your family and wish you nothing but the blessings of God's grace and mercy.
To answer your question. Yes, I would want people to defend me, and even if I were guilty I would need people to stand by me and protect me in the process. Part of that would be to hold my hand and walk me through the process of repentance and facing the music. I would need my friends to be tenacious for my soul and refuse to let me hide in my sin. I do not envy Mr. Gothard's position nor do I wish him ill. His friend must walk through this hell with him, but my perception is that there is quite a bit of blind trust communicated by his defenders here. I think there has shown to be a long history of inability/unwillingness to truly repent.
I think it's the tragedy of his understanding of grace. Legalists/moralists can't handle their own sin, because their view is that God can't or won't. When I was most influenced by Gothard's teachings I was miserable. Not because I didn't want to live up to his "high standards". I couldn't. Part of my frustration is that neither could Gothard, and yet many who defend him here minimize that. They excuse it.
And there is now a trail of devastated people that by all appearances are dismissed as bitter Christian lackeys who just couldn't keep up or who are trumping up charges just to bring him down. I think were there this kind of trail of tears behind my ministry I would hope that I nor my friends would pass over that. We might. We're sinners too. But God have mercy if we did.
I also believe Spiritual abuse to be an extremely serious matter, and I am seeing more and more surface among evangelical Christians. The hard thing is it's not nearly as easy to get one's mind around as a physical assault. But it is no less and often more devastating and harder to escape. I would also say that it is shameful the way it is missed so often. That's because it hides in the lingo of the church. It hides in our legalism. I think Gothard's teaching regarding an abused wife staying under her "umbrella of protection" to be patently un-wise and un-biblical. I think his teaching on authority to be a place where abuse has hidden.
I do want his teachings to go away. I believe they are quintessentially the Galatian false gospel. It is why my response is "I am astonished!" at the desertion of the gospel by his Gothard's teachings and his defenders.
I do not wish for Gothard's friends to desert him. I do wish and pray they will be true friends.
Joe,
You said that you had been in a van with Mr. Gothard when he took off his shoes and played coed footsie because of the close proximity. I just wonder how Mr. Gothard would have responded if one of the young men had started rubbing a young woman's calf with his sock foot. The point is that he had different standards for himself. I also don't think asking a secretary to sit on your lap is appropriate or going to a young woman's room late at night. He would not have tolerated these behaviors by any of the young men.
Annie,
That is definitely a valid point. In my circumstance it never crossed the into what you described above. Just peoples feet bumping and giggling and them we moved on.
Joe, the part of self-gratification is this, "In one meeting [Bill] was having with Department Directors in May 1980, as they were learning what widespread immorality was going on among their friends and staff, [a meeting] which I was sitting in, they had just heard [Bill] acknowledge to them his 13–14 year history of “‘sexual addiction to masturbation.” Now that was shocking to them, though they immediately realized the connection between that struggle and his inability to deal with the immorality of those around him. In their pressing him about his new revelation to them of his own struggles, he began to resist revealing any more detail."
It was on this thread: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/the-scandal-1980/
Joe, I really appreciate your kind spirit as you seek answers and answer our questions. Are you still involved with IBLP or ATI?
Anne
Woo Hoo, the rebels have each other...and now they cannot break us. (J/K if you remember the often told illustration.) No, Anne my IBLP/ATI stint was my skool'n. I am now off in the sunset with a quiver-full. I will say that the "ministry" the quotes are for whoever said we should put it in those above, really blessed our family but was never taken to an extreme.
KM
Sprechen Sie Deutsh? My brother vas born in Germany, I always teased him, that he could never be president. Fortunately president Obama changed that paradigm.
Thank you for pointing out the location of the acknowledgement. I read it on my phone which was in 'like' 3 pt font so I couldn't tell the source. I will say the lay out definitely looked official. So many of the allegations are rather damning if true.
Practically speaking, I know that when you have reach over 2.5 million people your will have some who don't like you. Lest say I am in a church of 50 people often there would be at lest 5 who don't care for the pastor and would love to see him ousted...some possibly by whatever means necessary. That's 10%, if you look for the same percentage in IBLP it would be over 250k. Let us carry that on to RG, I do not know how many faithful you have but lets pretend it is a 1000, you are still way under 1%.
Plus, most of these allegations come from at least a decade ago if not 20 to 30 years. With time exaggerations happen. There are even circumstances in my life where I question details of an actual event, I now picture a humorous story of 'how' I tell it, yet know that is not accurate of how the details transpired.
Shane,
I did not take any offense, what inspired me to jump in the fray was Anne standing alone. Believe it or not, most want the truth to come out. At this point it is still a lot of speculation. One verse that we hopefully can all unite on is in Psalms 51...at the end of the day somehow sinners are converted and God's name praised. (I added the God's name to be praised, because it is constant in the meta narrative of Scripture)
There is absolutely NOTHING abnormal about people being happy under deception. I have known JWs who will tell you they are blessed and fruitful in their cult. The reason people who are under Gothard's teaching are happy is because they have been given exactly what they desire -- a means of establishing their own righteousness. I would never suggest such folks realize what they are doing -- I have been guilty of the same -- it takes a miracle for God to open our eyes. Give a person with legalistic tendencies a law to keep and they will call you a great teacher. Paul told the Galatians that they had been bewitched, or mesmerized, by such teaching.
The question is never whether you feel blessed, or are happy, or think you can point to fruit. The question is whether Gothard teaches the TRUTH. I personally know of many people in cults who say they are blessed of God.
I was that lowly sinner and yes, God's love still amazes me. I am the one who was forgiven much and I did not come from a Christian background so how sweet it was when I found the Living Water. It is hard for me to understand the Christians who live an indulgent lifestyle that is so similar to what I came from. I experienced the bondage of these so called freedoms and I am the weaker Christian who can so easily stumble. I can not love Jesus enough for His amazing love for me. I am just saying that the lifestyle of those who seem the most critical of Bill Gothard is not the lifestyle that I want for me or my children. When I became a Christian I did not know the Word and when I went to the seminar Bill Gothard said that meditating on the Word was the most important thing of all so I went home and did that and my life was changed in a way that only God could get the glory. I have gone to the seminar over the years and I have not heard anything unBiblical. I do not know Bill Gothard and did not do ATI but did occasionally meet people who did. I don't see them as any different than someone who drinks wine. I just have seen the grief that alcohol has brought to so many lives. It is not a right or wrong issue but a love issue. If I love my brother or sister in Christ then I will refrain from indulging my desire to drink since I don't know who it will cause to stumble. I have read these comments. It reminds me of the story in Mark 8 when they brought the blind man to Jesus and at first the blind man saw men walking about as trees and so Jesus touched him again and then he saw everything clearly. It sounds as though so many people looked at Bill, just as the blind man looked at men and did not see clearly, rather than at Jesus. Maybe they need another touch from Jesus so that they can see everything clearly.
Anne, if people looked at Bill and did not see clearly, it is because Bill set himself up to be that way, his chain of command and authority teachings etc, which are still wreaking havoc in my family's life even now. You may never have seen it like that, there are indeed a few who didn't, and don't understand what we are talking about. I understand that, but PLEASE don't discount our experiences. For those of us who were raised in this program and never knew anything different, we have seen a VERY different side of the coin than you did, especially as you did not do ATI.
If I may use an analogy, in my humble opinion, I think that the work Recovering Grace is doing, is the touch of Jesus to make the blind see. By exposing the false teachings and various, terrible sins that have been committed behind closed doors, they are doing many people a great service, by being a safe place for the wounded to seek refuge, and an announcement to the world that Christians don't tolerate 'sin/abuse/crime in their ranks'. Not everyone who comments here is a Christian, or holds with traditional Christian values, but all are welcome.
Anne, Would you please read and consider at least some of the many articles in this section of Recovering Grace? https://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/
Would you also read and consider the experiences of the women who were harmed by Bill Gothard's (I'll use his word for for charity's sake) defrauding of them at a time of their great vulnerability? https://www.recoveringgrace.org/gothardfiles/
Would you be so kind as to define what you consider as an indulgent lifestyle? Or at least to consider that what you see as indulgent may actually be someone living in the Freedom that is found in Christ (Galatians 5). That what you're weakness wisely holds you back from may actually be something that someone is able to enjoy giving thanks to God? Would you agree that simply because abstaining from alcohol (for example) may be wise for you it is actually a violation of the Scriptures to say that abstinence is the pathway to being a better Christian? If you disagree with this will you please help me understand where you believe I have gone astray Biblically? Thanks for interacting.
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today." Acts 22:3
I could say the same, or the modern equivalent thereof for an evangelical Christian, regarding my strong Christian heritage, upbringing, and present practice. And yet I am highly critical of Bill Gothard, and believe that he has deceived many.
Let yourself be guided by that Living Water, Anne! He is all you need!
Anne, how is it that you can possibly know anything about the lifestyle of those who are critical of Gothard's teachings when all you have to go on is their comments on a message board? And how do you know that those who are critical have never been involved? Which is not true by the way. Most of the people on here were raised in ATI programs. Your tone is kind, but your words drip with judgement- the very judgement you rebuke others for having.
Anne: you get high marks for bravery in posting here, not that this RG crowd is "hostile" , but your some of your views are not the majority here, and yet you post: YEAAA!, that's called 'freedom', and you should be proud of yourself.
I don't want to hijack this thread into prohibition/freedom to drink, but I will mention that I have (at least) two sibs that struggle, or have struggled, with substance abuse and I rarely drink in their presence. Like yourself, they are the weaker christian in that matter, I get it. I don't know what you mean by "that lifestyle"... if you mean abusing alcohol or drugs, we agree, if you mean drinking any amount of alcohol, and holding that up as normative for all christians, then we have a difference.
The big deal is not the wine/beer itself (which I could live without, and may yet) but shrinking the gospel down into a box marked "do not handle , do not touch, do not drink... all which have the APPEARANCE of wisdom..."
I won't blather on, but I applaud your every effort to please Christ in all your decisions, just know that theer are MANY areas that ATI and BILL have made essential , which in fact are NOT.
I think Augustine said: "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, diversity; in all things, charity. Lets keep the essentials few, for peace in the family of GOD.
Augustine's quote ends after "Charity"...btw
from Mitchell chapman
thanks for sharing and thanks for caring for those who have had a hardship in their life. maybe you can figure out now how to help those women who need help who have been abused at oak brook.
Megan, Thank you for clarifying about your background and experiences. I do appreciate hearing what you have to say. I came from a background where there were not many rules about drinking, smoking etc. and I saw the destruction of that lifestyle...so that is why I don't understand why Christians do so much of defending drinking. When I went to seminar I was a new Christian longing for direction of what to do so that I would not go back to my previous lifestyle. I wanted to please Jesus with all my heart and did not trust myself but wanted to learn how to trust the Lord so when I heard about meditation I realized that was how I could abide in Christ and His Word abide in me. That was 40 years ago. I am more in love with the Lord than ever before and want to love Him more because of His great love for me and for who He is. He alone is worthy. My husband and I have a Bible study for inner city kids and we started sending them up to Journey and they have truly been loved by those up there and much healing has come from their time in the Word up there. So, I was looking up the dates and came across this website and read some of the comments. Most the people seem very hateful and how quickly it seems that they went from Mr. Gothard to the teaching of IBLP. There seems to be alot of anger and hatred. Even if they do destroy the man and that ministry will that bring healing to them? I did not agree with everything Mr. Gothard said but I don't think there is anyone that I would agree with everything that they said. That is why I wanted to know the Word for myself so that I could build my life on it, rather than on what someone else had to say about the Lord and His Word. I can honestly say that the Christian life has been the sweetest life in the world. I am now older and He has never forsaken me or disappointed me. I wish I could give the experiences of my life, my marriage and my family to everyone. Praise His holy name!
"I can honestly say that the Christian life has been the sweetest life in the world. I am now older and He has never forsaken me or disappointed me. I wish I could give the experiences of my life, my marriage and my family to everyone. Praise His holy name!"
Hi Anne, I'm Nancy. I agree the Christian life is the sweetest life in the whole world. I have been a Christian for 47 years. I grew up in a Christian family where Christ was very much a member. He was our Head. My parents we very lenient in our upbringing. Only one thing was ever asked, "How does this action impact your relationship with the Lord?" I was free to listen to rock music and intelligently discuss the differing world philosophies. I was allowed to run the roads on a motorcycle. My clothes were trendy. I never drank, smoked, took drugs, or had revolving inappropriate relationships. I worked at church, and held Bible studies with friends. I loved life and had the freedom to explore God's vast creation. I got married to a man who loved the Lord in 1977, and we continued in the same God loving freedom that I have always known. My son grew up loving the Lord and graduated from a Christian College.
I never heard of Bill Gothard until 1993. His seminar hit me differently than it did you. Where you were looking for structure, I was already intrenched in freedom. Where you were looking for firm footing, I already had a very solid foundation. The sins Bill Gothard talked about were never even a consideration for me. I am not afraid of sensuality as it has a place in marriage. I wasn't afraid of music because I didn't believe the nonsense of the Voodoo beat. I wasn't afraid to submit to my husband because he already loved and honored me like Christ does the church. The Lord had me in a different place than the message assumed.
In 2006 God called me to the domestic mission field after our son was raised and on his own. He gave me the honor of serving Him. He help me go through things the year before that prepared me for the task at hand. I am a carpenter. I work in a man's world. I help restore communities after hurricane devastation. He has given me a front row seat to watch His Mighty Hand reaching down and lifting others up. We work hard, rejoice always, and see His glory in the smallest of blessings sent our way. If I were more like many ATI moms I would be a hinderance to the men working around me. They wouldn't feel free to curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer. They wouldn't feel comfortable burping or scratching or spitting or doing the many other things men do while they work. What God had me provide is a gentle smile, a warm hug, a finger to wipe away the tears
Anne He needs us to reflect a variety. We can't all be the same. We won't all serve the same purpose in His Kingdom. I need the freedom I use to serve and not offend.
thought about your comment, Nancy2, while listening to my Third Day cd; imagine a world where ALL christian rock, even all rock itself, is done away with....ewwww, what a horrible thought !! no Jars of Clay, no Keith Green or Rich Mullins, no Caedman's Call.. shudder...
A minister once told me that people shouldn't listen to any music where the beat is faster than a heart beat. About 65-70 beats a minute. I laughed, winked, and told him my heart rate running was 151 and that took care if my rock music dilemma.
I'll never forget getting back to work after a pretty bad injury and a couple of carpenters singing "Ain't No Sunshine" as I reached the top of the 40 foot high church roof.
My favorite life verse is Jeremiah 12:5 "If you have raced with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses? If you stumble in safe country, how will you manage in the thickets by the Jordan?" My answer is "Only by the Hand of God!"
@Nancy2: I appreciate your wit! Love your comments. :) ["and told him my heart rate running was 151 and that took care if my rock music dilemma."]
All right Nancy2 I just dated myself. When you mentioned a couple of carpenters singing I immediately thought of Karen and Richard. Child of the '70s I am.
Jim K.
Ma'am- As others have stated, thanks for being brave enough to comment here. I would counter your statement about hatred - I do not think you have read enough of the comments. There are very few here that spout "hate" towards BG - you can surely find enough of that on other sites out on the web with just a few minutes of searching. I think there is more righteous anger on behalf of victims who have been repressed and disbelieved for years due to the nature of the pedestal that BG has been placed on. There is a big difference in my book between hatred and a desire for justice.
While your experience with IBLP teachings may have been positive, it is not always the case. Like with Gothard's anecdotal teachings, your positive story does not prove the entire system works. I am an alumnus of the Basic and Advanced Seminars and can testify that my implementation of his steps and principles as leaving my heart a devastated wasteland. Perhaps someday my story will be here on RG as well.
I learned the hard way to be a "Berean" about all scriptural teachings. Seek things out on your own. Do not take what has been preached to you by BG as gospel. Search out other stories on the internet regarding this organization. There are many other hurting people other than here.
Godspeed.
Dearest Anne,
I am not an ATI alumni and I have not attended but a few ATI conferences. But, the first conference I attended, I noticed a woman with many children. She was feeding her baby a bottle with orange formula and the baby's skin was tinted orange. When I asked her what she was feeding the baby, she said a special formula for the baby's condition. Long story short, she said that she birthed all of her babies at home. Later I met a few of her children and I am certain that they were deprived oxygen during the birth process. I learned, at this first conference that I attended, that many of the women had home births. There is a saying in American Obstetrics:
"Home deliveries are for pizzas." The Christian families who attended were indeed very kind and loving. It is their leader, Bill Gothard, who is the one under investigation.
Not quite sure where you are going with this with Anne, but, how were you able to attend ATI conferences when you were not in ATI? Just asking. And as for home births, my wife gave birth to the last five of our six children with midwives in a stand alone birthing center. (A house) First one was born in a military hospital in Germany. We were back at our own home four hours after their births. Everyone of them were very healthy and not deprived of oxygen. This goes for quite a bunch of other babies born to families of the congregation where I minister.
Lee,
thank you for your concern toward children who may (or may not have) been exposed to some factors that were detrimental to their physical health. I am sure that is sincere, and may be well warranted. I do not know the extent of your medical knowledge, that you are able to confidently diagnose the condition of several children at once, but I find this kind of blanket judgment based on anecdotal evidence to be unhelpful. Indeed it is one of the things I find so offensive in Gothard's teachings. Statements such as "Home deliveries are for pizzas" are offensive, and do nothing to further any points you may wish to prove on that topic. I won't go into a defense of home birth on this thread, it is not the issue at hand.
Lee, I understand what you are saying, I think. In a cult environment, there is also an unhealthy dose of paranoia for all things from "the world". With ATI and other groups consisting of homeschoolers, it starts with skepticism of public school, but then there is a paranoia of hospitals, healthcare, vaccines, higher education, etc. etc. etc. Believe it or not, not everybody out there is out to hurt us.
Even with people I have gone to church with, I truly believe there are people that would rather see a chiropractor for a brain tumor than an oncologist. Now I understand that people have different views on those things (I admit I come from the view that most alternative medicine is quackery), but often times people cross the boundaries of common sense, to the danger of their own health or the health of their children. I personally think it makes more sense to birth children in an atmosphere able to handle birth complications.
It's good to trust a good, trained medical doctor for your healthcare, an accredited university for your college education, and a minister, preferably one who has experience raising a family, to give spiritual, practical counsel on how to raise and educate your children.
I really think all of these symptoms tie together to the topic at hand. People with religious paranoia are very much tempted to heap to themselves teachers who will give them an alternative to all things worldly. Of course, in groups like these, I'm sure there are various opinions on all of these topics, but they are all seeking someone with answers. And IMO, BG is an example of a wolf ready to fill those voids and give false teaching to calm those itching ears.
It's interesting there seem to be no press releases in all of this. I think they are waiting for the storm to blow over and then go back to business as usual.
@MarkL: IMO "administrative leave," is still an early stage in a scandal. To the people with vested interest (ATIers and ex-ATIers), this is a big deal already, but to mainstream (the rest of the population), it's smalltown drama so far. Should ATI refuse to execute a third party investigation and/or the third party investigation confirms the ugly truth of BG's indecencies, then I think I'll see a juicy headline.
I am the same "anonymous" who posted on this thread earlier. I do believe that this was probably the main point Lee was trying to make, and I do agree with it.
When you see such a large number of people within the same group making a counter-cultural choice about something generally acknowledged to be morally ambiguous, such as where and how to give birth, it does raise a lot of questions. And this is coming from someone who has birthed five healthy children at home.
Anne, among the things you wrote (with such a kind tone, I might add), is this:
"I have gone to the seminar over the years and I have not heard anything unBiblical."
I urge you to re-think this. Over the past few months, I have been watching the Basic Seminar videos and taking notes. There are many unbiblical points among the many biblical points he also makes.
Thanks,
Jeff
Thank you, Recovering Grace team. I can only imagine the difficulties you have taken on in choosing to deal in truth. My prayers and heartfelt thanks are yours.
While people debate as to whether this law or that law is correct, and how we ought to keep it, the Bible says that one of the greatest sins of all is that of trying to maintain your relationship with God through works to begin with. Self-righteousness is SIN. It is also deception. Thus, it is folly to debate over whether one law is better than another in trying to make ourselves right with God. The ENTIRE mentality is deception.
The alternative to legalism -- being under law as the means of Christianity -- is not license. The alternative is CHRIST -- Paul said, "I travail until Christ be formed in you." (Gal. 4:19) But when is the last time most of us have even heard of this? Yet Paul gave it as the answer to the Galatians. He also said that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision -- representative of any kind of law you want to name -- avails a thing, but a new creature. Until the church sees the Truth of Christ in us, and recognizes what it means to be born again, we CANNOT see. We will spend our time gravitating between legalism and license, and Christ will be standing over to the side waiting for us to be done so that we can finally see that His life in us is the only solution.
Gothardites smugly believe that those who have rejected the teachings of Bill Gothard want to indulge themselves, and will not accept his high standards. No. His supposed high standards are not the problem. Rather, he teaches a false Christianity and another gospel. The answer to Gothardism is not license -- and I have not read that anyone thinks it is. The answer is Christ - Christ in you, the hope of glory.
AMEN!!!!
Hello all,
This may be the wrong thread to post this, however, it seemed to be the most recent one I could find on RG. (By the way, all of you on RG staff, I know what you do is emotional, draining, and at times, gut-wrenching. So from afar, I thank you!)
I am a 54-year old mom, wife and clinical social worker who needs to vent! In 1978 and '79 I attended two IBYC seminars in Chicago. I had no idea how pervasive BG's legalistic rules had become in my own life, not necessarily through the seminars, but through Bob Jones, the Pearl's, certain camps in Wisconsin. The teachings on "submit" to your husband left me with a shame-based mentality every time I disagreed with my husband. And I still second-guess myself for not wearing dresses all the time. Thankfully, I have slowly healed through my husband and many hours of Bible study and talking with other ladies at my church. My daughter was actually "shunned" at a music camp because she listened to CCN and didn't use only the KJV. The whole legalistic/rule thing makes it very easy for those who have some internal unmet need to compensate by setting up systems of control and manipulation of others. If anyone out there has any comments of personality disordered behavior I have read about on this site by BG and/or SG, I'd greatly appreciate the discussion. Just a little integration of psychology/theology! BTW, I will praying for healing for those who need it. I'm reading from Ruth, I think, symptoms of PTSD, before she went to be with the Lord. May the Great Healer restore all the hurt and torn.
Jolene, hi,
I am a 55 year old retired physical therapist, wife, mother, and former basic seminar attendee. I relate to what you said about not being aware of the pervasive nature of these unbiblical authoritarian teachings in your life, and I had to deprogram from it as well. Some years ago, I got into an online conversation with a woman who is a counselor, who also was going through dealing with these teachings. She put it this way - she felt that while trying to live under authoritarian teaching (which goes beyond what the Bible teaches) she felt part of her very self was "being erased." As we communicated some online, and in e-mails, I took to that way of seeing it. God created us with a mind to think, and He expects us to use it. Gothard's conception of authority forces us, if we live by it, to "erase" part of what He created. We can't live this way without suffering in some way. Thank you for sharing. I agree with your remarks about PTSD. My heart is heavy when I think of that situation.
P.S. Regarding the DSM and all its axes, there may be something there. I have a friend who has been recently diagnosed with a personality disorder, and I've studied the axes some in order to get a grasp on them. But what I see mostly here with IBLP is a vicious spiritual battle going on. The reason I think that way is the sheer number of people who have tried to deal with IBLP over the years - upright Christian people who have proven characters - who have been maligned and cast as the bitter enemy, for expressing disagreement with teaching or for trying to hold Bill Gothard accountable.
One question: Why did the board wait so long? They must have known about this for some time.
Richard, such Boards are hand picked by the organizational Head and get all of their information and understanding from the Head. They are completely incapable of holding the Head accountable. They are advised, when necessary, by attorneys chosen by the Head. Look at the bios of the people on the Board. They are either Gothard toadies or they are people who Gothard has held up publicly as "examples" and stroked their egos enough to lead them to think BG is the "real deal". Charges against the real deal are extremely hard to process. Do you remember how the Disciples came to Jesus for a response to criticism they heard from outside (i.e. washings, fasting)? They were fortunate enough to have THE "Real Deal" as their Head, but others just like them are engaged with lesser men.