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Their Day in Court: Part Three
February 22, 2019 // 110 Comments -
Their Day in Court: Part Two
February 22, 2019 // 0 Comments -
Their Day in Court: Part One
February 22, 2019 // 0 Comments -
Statement from Recovering Grace regarding the lawsuit a ...
March 28, 2018 // 186 Comments -
Rethinking the Nativity
December 25, 2016 // 144 Comments
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Plaintiffs Amend Lawsuit Against IBLP, Also Sue Bill Go ...
January 10, 2016 // 1311 Comments -
Charlotte's Story
February 5, 2014 // 601 Comments -
Bill’s Cabin: Uncovering Sin
May 21, 2014 // 475 Comments -
How the Teachings of Emotional Purity and Courtship Dam ...
July 22, 2011 // 431 Comments -
Sacred Grooming, Part Six: A Secretary's Account of Lif ...
January 31, 2014 // 405 Comments
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thank-you for the review of your notes, they give ...
April 25, 2020 -
What else did she say? (From my notes) Actual a ...
April 23, 2020 -
I'm not following what "motives" have to do with B ...
April 23, 2020 -
I was aware of the Marcion tenets mentioned: she h ...
April 22, 2020 -
Marcion's heresies is much more than just a "rejec ...
April 20, 2020 -
It is impossible to predict exactly how and when I ...
April 19, 2020 -
They may be borrowing a page or pages from critics ...
April 6, 2020 -
Whether these facts are significant or not: free ...
April 6, 2020 -
Yes, lets hope so. However, this is the lentiest l ...
April 3, 2020 -
Rob, Per your comment about IBLP, I noticed on th ...
April 2, 2020 -
There is a quote from the 11th century that I find ...
March 24, 2020 -
Acts 17:26-27 (ESV) are currently my life verses f ...
March 23, 2020 -
"such material" IBLP material that is.
March 22, 2020 -
I believe that I have been there, making an idol o ...
March 22, 2020 -
"Those that long to see the Kingdom of God come, a ...
March 21, 2020 -
You do realize that the same person that runs DG a ...
March 20, 2020 -
Do they realize the exact problem Bill has is that ...
March 20, 2020 -
wow- those who endorse a certain person as having ...
March 20, 2020
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Underwhelming.
Incredibly so.
So very much so underwhelming. The best comment to start out this commenting session.
Since when did the word "sin" get exiled from their vocabulary?!
They used these phrases: "Inappropriate manner," "lack of discretion," "failure to follow Christ's example," and "shortcomings." But the word "sin" is not mentioned once in their document.
Which begs the question... did these Board of Directors ever attend the Basic Seminar?
Beverly, I had the same immediate response. Where is there any reference to sin? The silence was deafening. Lest anyone should read my post with a voice of anger, disgust, rancor, or even disgust, let me say that I, myself, want to be in a mode of recovering grace, not in bitterness or arrogance. I desire that my speech always be gracious, (only) seasoned with salt (as opposed to dumping the whole salt shaker of truth out). Having said that, I want to point out that the IBLP Board members, who I believe are operating truly out of humiliation, shame, brokenness and grief, have neglected to speak the warning as Jesus spoke to His disciples (Lk. 12:1) concerning the SIN of the religious leaders He was dealing with: "Beware of the SIN of the Pharisees, which is HYPOCRISY." While the Board may be able to refer to it as missing the standard of scripture for leadership, or not crossing the legal definition of sexual harassment (since there was not that definition in place at the time the offenses were committed), there is very clearly the SIN of HYPOCRISY. Not only did Bill Gothard live by a different standard than that which he taught and required of his followers, he did exactly what Peter warned shepherds of the flock of Christ not to do: "Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shaemful gain...not domineering over (KJV, lording it over) those in your charge but being examples to the flock." (ESV) These should have been in the Board's confession of how Mr. Gothard has indeed sinned. This they need to address with their former leader, and this sin Mr. Gothard needs to repent of.
Very insightful, Linda-Lee. Thank you.
This statement was more of the same. In these words we can surmise a few things:
Legalism is still ok.
Mr. Gothard's actions are, once again, being minimized. What he and IBLP have done IS actionable in view of labor laws and sexual harassment laws - if the proper people are interviewed and those being asked to be interviewed are comfortable with this being an honest, outside investigation.
This "outside investigation" was actually an "inside investigation".
To sum things up, in our view as an ex-ATI household, there has been so much in the way of grievous conduct, error in doctrine, family fallout, and so much more that, in the name of loving God, this entity should close their doors.
This has not been slight stuff. So many, many families and individuals have been harmed by the teachings - I am not sure of the reasons for looking for a new president. In so doing, ATI/IBLP is trampling on the ones hurt and those asking them to be courageous and merciful in closing their doors. Even, alone, to honor the thousands hurt by this "ministry".
I ask IBLP/ATI - in the spirit in which the house that held Amanda Berry and 2 other women captive for over 10 years was razed - please close your doors.
Please do not continue to propagate extra-biblical teaching. Please listen to all the hurt - not bitter, but hurt - people who have asked for this to be done. More will be hurt and you will be yet more accountable.
There is no need for ATI/IBLP. That which was exclusive to this system of thought and homeschool curriculum is precisely the thing that has caused a world of hurt. The exclusivity of it should have been a warning to us all. There are hundreds of EXCELLENT ministries in our country alone that can teach and help and encourage. Again, there is no need for this "ministry" to continue.
Thank you for hearing out a Mom of 5 who has been set free from many, many years of extra-biblical, anti-biblical teaching in this system. I do not wish ill on Mr. Gothard or any of the Board - just please see the hurt and casualties, cut your losses, and, like Vision Forum, do the right thing.
I completely agree, Julia.
You are right on that, Julia, that there is no need for this institute. Christ established his church, not the institute of BG.
Well said
I agree.
Cult leaders and active members never will admit that the teaching is false. Nor will they recognize or admit the deep and profound pain that so many have suffered. This will be the continued reality if and until someone can bring a solid legal case against Bill Gothard and his cult.
I posted on IBLP's website. They have a disclaimer that all posts will be private. This is what I posted.
"Bill is the root/cause of people's bitterness. In other words Righteous Indignation. The root needs to be cut off.
I see by not posting comments, you are still hiding behind the veil of science and secrecy.
Men and Women of God are bold and courageous. You guys are wimps."
"The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly."
I think they were referring to the email. But even so there are no comments, not even positive ones. I think they are waiting to read through all of them and only publish a few tastefully written comments that are positive to their cause.
I am glad that RG is following this up. I read the statement by IBLP and felt sick that these people despise the victims (both sexual and spiritual) of ATI so much that they would think that they can control the conversation. They honestly think that as long as they remove Bill from the equation they can continue to harm people with their false teachings, and by falsely claiming that no criminal actions occurred, which is a slap in the face for those who were harmed by criminal actions.
IBLP is Bill Gothard. Without him it can have a quick death by shutting down, or a slow death by carrying on. It's hardly surprising that the board and executive staff would opt for a slow death (while repressing their own knowledge that it is a death either way).
Regarding a few specifics of the board's statement:
— We know that the 'outside' part of the 'thorough review process conducted by outside legal counsel' is a joke, which places heavy doubt on the veracity of the rest of the statement. The fact that no proper external investigation has been conducted should be spread far and wide.
— 'no criminal activity has been discovered' can be translated as: It's going to be really tough for any law enforcement agency to get convictions here, so we're probably in the clear. Phew. We're hoping really hard that no one brings a civil action though.
— 'We believe God still desires to use Bill Gothard for His work in the Kingdom of God, but we also believe it is important that he be held to the high standards clearly taught in the Scriptures and upheld by this ministry. At this time the Board unanimously agrees that Mr. Gothard is not permitted to serve in any counseling, leadership, or Board role within the IBLP ministry.' Yay: Bill's really gone. Boo: This paragraph leaves the door wide open for Bill to come back. And going by recent history, it only takes about 10 minutes for a 'fallen' ministry leader to be fully 'restored'.
One truth the board did not want to admit is that they (the board, in different configurations) did NOT uphold high standards in allowing Bill and 'family" to operate the way he did for decades. There was no confession OF the board about the board. Big omission. The board itself is not above reproach here, and no confession speaks volumes. Of course, a truly OUTSIDE counsel would have picked up on this in a heartbeat.
Very true. They did not repent of their own sins, and, as Homeschoolers Anonymous points out (http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/06/17/iblps-statement-is-a-disgrace/), the Board admits the "shortcoming" is worthy of Bill being removed from ministry, but they never ONCE say "I'm sorry" in this statement. Everything about this statement is a slap in the face to those who have brought their concerns to the Board.
And---newsflash---the reason they haven't found anything criminal is because they have intentionally REFUSED to interview Charlotte or anyone else who published their stories on RG. I heard this from someone who spoke to Gibbs Sr. directly about it. So that's their style of investigation and why they found nothing criminal---they just interviewed all the "safe" people who have no issues with Bill. Works like a charm every time. Because *of course* if they found something criminal, they'd report it! {eye roll} Avoidance is one way to come up with a clean investigation.
If they did not ask to interview those making accusations of molestation, RG needs to make a full report about that to call Gibbs out. If, on the other hand, if the women did not wish to be interviewed by Gibbs, that is understandable. I wonder if we as a group could engage Tullian and G.R.A.C.E. to do an outside investigation on behalf of the aggrieved. At some point, we should not sit and demand someone else establish the truth. We have access to the witnesses we have the motivation and with God's help we could gather any resources necessary to accomplish it. Most issues are not legal issues and the vast majority of those that are would be barred by the statute of limitations. But there is no statute of limitations on truth. The only hindrance is a sincere desire to know it.
Don Rubottom,
Yes. If possible, stand for Truth with a bonifide third party investigator. IBLP leadership truly believes DGjr is filling the bill as legal third party.
Don,
That is a great idea.
"I wonder if we as a group could engage Tullian and G.R.A.C.E. to do an outside investigation on behalf of the aggrieved."
This should be done for sure. I would happily donate to such an investigation. I see no reason why this can't be done, as long as GRACE was willing to do it. The one thing that you can't compel IBLP to do is to cooperate. But GRACE could speak to the victims. If IBLP and it's leaders choose not to cooperate, that would speak volumes to anyone really seeking the "truth".
I am confident that the funds could be raised. Please keep us posted if you decide to pursue this.
I can't keep straight if it is Tullian or his brother at G.R.A.C.E. Their last name is beyond my mastery!
Tullian and Boz are the "Grace and Truth" brothers---Tullian is known for his multiple radical books on grace, and Boz is known for pushing churches to speak and live the truth when it comes to protecting children and fighting predators. Boz is the one who started GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environments). :-)
Agreed.
I suspect the title 'A Time of Transition' speaks volumes. I just cut all of the rest of my response out. This tells the entire story--that is not a statement of repentance or recognition of wrong teaching or anything--it's humanistic self-improvement and self-preservation.
"no criminal activity has been discovered"
Yes, but criminal activity has been alleged publicly. Sexual harassment is a crime and it appears that they admit that this occurred (but choose to call it "inappropriate behavior"). Since when does the IBLP Board become the proper authority to adjudicate these claims? That's not how our legal system works. Saying that no criminal activity happened, is to usurp the proper roles of a judge or jury. You can say "I don't think anything criminal happened."
I vote for a civil action with the purpose of transferring the IBLP assets to more worthy organizations.
Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a "crime" but a civil violation of law that subjects the employer to a civil suit for damages by the victim and possible fines by the EEOC or state labor law enforcer. I understand how strongly RG readers identify with the victims, but the only criminal violations alleged are Charlotte's. (Wage and hour violations from the distant past are not even subject to review at this late date.) While misdemeanor battery might be committed in some jurisdictions by an unwanted touching of the breasts through clothing, I am not aware of ANY case in America where such conduct or hugging constituted a criminal charge. Same for playing footsie. All of those constitute sexual harassment in the workplace.
I have not noticed any charge on RG that would be within the applicable statute of limitations so any hope of state or federal prosecutors resolving these old claims is misplaced, a false hope, and possibly idolatry (looking to a weak pagan legal system for ultimate justice).
The church needs to resolve these charges to the satisfaction of all who might be damaged by failure to resolve them. If the wrongdoer does not acknowledge and repent, his guilt should be clearly and accurately communicated to the church in every place the man's teaching has been promoted. Any confession should be as widely distributed.
From the distant past? Underaged workers have only just been sent home from headquarters.
I am only operating from the published stories on RG. If there are people who have been wronged in the past 2 to 4 years they should contact the authorities or a private attorney and pursue their claim.
From all appearances, the investigation was on the sexual harassment allegations (admitted "inappropriatenesses") published on RG, all of which appear to be at least 10 years old.
If RG provided IBLP with details of other claims, it is now time for those to be listed, even if the victims are kept anonymous. Someday, they may want such a record to have been made, and because IBLP has not bothered listing the allegations that they investigated, it is time for others to list the allegations presented to IBLP.
No organization should be held accountable to innumerable, often anonymous internet allegations not presented directly to them. Specific allegations, such as the stories published on RG are essential.
Don, if my information is correct, there are current legal reasons for the more recent cases to not be published yet, but as I am not a lawyer, I'm not altogether certain what those reasons are, but I believe I've seen that information stated elsewhere on RG.
If anyone has come forward with a more recent story, it is vitally important that their story remains private while they report to law enforcement/get legal assistance.
The public arena is an important way to get the change that is needed to help protect other vulnerable people when the statute of limitations means the courts cannot help. But if a court proceeding is actually possible, it could really mess things up.
Having a crooked lawyer like DG jr 'investigate' could just have been a really nasty ploy to try and ruin the possibility of any criminal or civil legal action.
If there were any law enforcement investigation ongoing we would know about it and the Board would not have issued the statement it did. That just exposes them to conspiracy and fraud claims. The fact is that those of you who look to the justice system for a solution are deluding yourselves. This is something the church must deal with openly, honestly, honorably and in a manner that is above reproach. Lawsuits and lawyers and prosecutors will only consume the resources and emotions of all involved with the only result being millions of dollars in lawyers pockets. RG is taking it to the church and this is the cure.
If there have been wage and hour law violations in the past 2 years, where is the Illinois or U.S. Labor investigation? (Obama would love to bust a fundamentalist whose followers ALL vote Republican.) If there has been molestation in the past 5 years (genital contact) where is the criminal investigation.
Telling the truth to the world never messes up a legal claim. Lawyers just like to control disclosures because confidentiality agreements that hide sin can garner a larger settlement than full disclosure of the wrongdoing. Do you seek monetary settlement that protects Gothard and IBLP from public scrutiny or do you seek the truth?
Umm speaking as someone who was involved in an unrelated criminal case which was resolved just a month ago (after three years going through the system).
Talking publicly about a criminal court case can and will seriously impede procedings. It can take months from when the victim goes to police to when any charges are laid as the police collect evidence and interview witnesses.
I have no idea if anything is going on behind the scenes, but it is important if there are recent victims that the authorities are told, not the general public.
And the court system is an important part of keeping society safe. To ignore it and try to deal with sexual abuse and harassment in-house is just wrong.
You are correct except that it is impossible to keep a criminal investigation of a public person a secret. Too many people at the courthouse can't keep their mouths closed. Google "Jameis Winston rape charge". It therefore appears that any criminal actions (molestation is criminal, hand holding and hugging with clothes on is not) are barred by the statute of limitations. I do not recommend "keeping it in the church" I recommend the church deal with this very public case without allowing the statute of limitations to close the matter. By your argument, the IBLP Board should have done nothing, so as not to interfere. I have twice helped prosecute someone in a legislature while a state criminal prosecutor was trying to get the same person in a criminal investigation. It would have done great damage to wait for the prosecutor as the legislature has a right to clean its own house independently and promptly. The church cannot and should not depend on the criminal justice system. It should report suspected crimes an cooperate with law enforcement but it seems a fantasy to me to believe that any law enforcement is or will be involved in this one unless a very recent case comes out. We cannot let the legal system limit our own self-examination and cleansing of the church. Paul was very direct about Christians not RELYING on judges, while he acknowledged that governors are ordained to punish lawbreakers. I hope this explains my earlier statement.
And remember that most criminal matters are settled by means of plea bargains: I plead guilty to misdemeanor battery and promise never to work with young ladies again if you drop the fondling charge involving a hand-picked victim that had emotional problems before I tried to help her and will be an easily impeachable witness ("Miss, how many times did you lie to your authorities in the three years leading up to that time?").
"The last chapter has not yet been written" of the IBLP and ATI story.
I sense that there is still something big yet to happen.
I noticed that their "confidential and thorough review process conducted by outside legal counsel" did not include interviewing victims. "Many people were interviewed, including former Board members, current and past staff members, current and past administrators, parents, and family members."
That is exactly what I thought when I read your last paragraph----here we go again, it is the "fox guarding the henhouse". They didn't waste any of their time interviewing any of the victims, just people that would support their own agenda. And as Beverly is asking--where is the mention of SIN?---The Pharisees are protecting the Pharisee again and just prepping the way for ole bill to come on back in...(or bill may not want to--may be off in the northwoods w/ some "secretaries" writing new material) ((shame on me))
I don't think BIll is coming back in any kind of leadership capacity, but I also think it is very possible to maintain the status quo WITHOUT Bill. How much of the material stays the same ? Will ANY of the major teaching flaws be addressed ? Will any of the operating protocols that allowed Bill to be Bill be held up to scrutiny and changed ?? Will anyone with a better vision of Kingdom oriented ministry be tolerated ?
Can Bill receive counseling FROM young women?
I wanted to expand on what I meant that "I sense that there is still something big yet to happen". Most of what we have heard about sexual harassment and sexual abuse by Bill Gothard has happened 20+ years ago beyond the statute of limitations. We have still to hear from the young people in the last 20 years that have been victimized by sexual predators within the organization, including Gothard. We know that the sexual abuse and harassment did not stop 20 years ago or Bill Gothard and the Board would have been sure to state it.
I know of quite a few people, including myself, who were subjected to illegal actions that refused to speak to an inside investigator. Why would we? Sadly, this is exactly what I expected.
Either their "law department" is woefully uneducated in what constitutes illegal activity, or they refused to actually investigate.
could you have requested that an outside investigator or lawyer be present when they ask that you talk with their inside investigator? or at least have it taped?
The thing is, you could sit and talk to an "inside investigator" all day but if his job is to "fix" things rather than pursue truth and justice then the balance is weighted against the individual victims, even if they do have their own lawyers. For example, hypothetically speaking, suppose he were more interested in making the scandal go away than in making things right. In that hypothetical case, everything you tell him becomes ammo to be used against you as he plans how to neutralize your story. I'm not saying that is the case. But the possibility that it could be the case would be enough to seriously damage my ability to trust them if I were one of the victims. If it were me, I would want some assurance I would be treated in good faith; lacking that, I don't know why I would agree to have that conversation with them.
I had nothing to base good faith on-so I declined being interviewed. I let them know that I would be happy to talk to a true outside source.
That makes sense to me. If they are truly interested in truth, they would be willing to find mutually agreeable arrangements for talking with the victims rather than demanding that they set the terms. It was on their turf and under the purview of the board (different individuals on the board, perhaps) that the victims were originally hurt, after all. Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" makes much of knowing the landscape and controlling the terms of engagement.
Did anyone besides me notice that they carefully specified that BG would not be allowed to hold any "counseling, leadership, or Board role"? Why not just say that he will not be allowed to hold any role? That says to me that he's already involved again behind the scenes. "We won't allow him to be alone with women, we won't put him in the public eye, and he can't vote on the Board, but really he's still running things backstage because we just don't know what to do without him." And they started the sentence with "At this time." It is grammatically ambiguous whether "at this time" refers to "the Board unanimously agrees" or to BG's "exile" from the listed roles. My money would be on the latter... and they're leaving the door open for putting him back officially in charge at some point in the not too distant future.
I am devastated for the young women and their families who have been manipulated, hurt and spiritually abused. They received no genuine acknowledgment that their pain is real and stems from actual SINFUL events. They received no apology for any aspect of their wounding. This response was crafted by an attorney. It addresses issues without taking any firm responsibility for them. Mr. Gothard is clearly still at the helm, albeit hidden behind a filing cabinet stuffed full of complaints about him and about IBLP and their legalistic teachings.
I will continue to pray in earnest for everyone wounded by this misguided organization. Our God is a redeemer! We should pray for Bill Gothard, too. After all, look what God did to retstore Nebuchadnezzar?
Now I have a picture in my mind of BG going out into the field to graze like an animal as Nebuchanezzar did. LOL
Yes, someone else besides you noticed that language and omission.
Yep---noticed that---we're not as dumb as they like to think we are.. most of us can read through legalese
It all comes of those old WBs - the front page "wisdom quiz" that had ridiculously convoluted wording (so that I almost always got the answer "wrong"). Yup. We know how to read twisted stuff - and then untwist it to find that there's *nothing* there.
I found it interesting that one could submit a comment but that at this time no comments are shown below the issued statement. Some are so controlling of what goes on around them that they even have to control even what others think or say about them so I am sure that only the finest hand-picked comments will be allowed on the site.
I can just imagine how the interviews went down-----
"Send in the next Gothardite...now you know a bad report will send you directly to hell, what do you think of Mr. Bill?"
"Lovehimjustlovehimheistrulysentofgodandcandonowrongwhenisthenextseminardoesmyhairhavesoftcurlsaremyeyesbrightenough"
There is an old saying that people used to use more frequently when dealing with those who used and hurt everyone around them but little could be done...."leave them to Heaven"--- meaning let God sort it out.
Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
https://mollom.com/web-service-privacy-policy
I find it so much more telling to read their privacy policy on what comments they consider to be "spam".
If there are no comments up, it means there have been no commendations for their diligence and thoroughness. Alas.
How can they propagate the bad report that Bill acted inappropriately?
Caution is always in order when making an application of OT prophets to a modern situation but this paragraph seems eerily appropriate right now:
“‘Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash, therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, “Where is the whitewash you covered it with?”
Oh wow, that's an amazingly applicable verse right now. I looked it up, and it's Ezekiel 13:10-14, under the paragraph titled "The Reproof of False Prophets."
I guess there's nothing new under the sun.
A fundamental choice the board had to make with this entire process was: will we approach this like a ministry/business/institution OR will we approach this prophetically and do all we can RELATIONALLY to help repair the breach , the wound , in the body of Christ ?? Guess which way they went ? That explains the legalese , the sterelized language, the setup for legal deniability. Also explains never having to say "I'm sorry".
Newest surprising lost Basic Principle: Love means you never have to say you're sorry.
Lol
Ha!
This statement of the board, as a whole, is of little value at all. They are simply admitting what has been there for all to see for over 40 years. They state that Gothard's conduct was inappropriate -- they have come to this conclusion after 40 years, and after their most recent investigation -- through the scandal of 1980 and through countless of other testimonies and appeals from layman and ministers alike. Inappropriate? I wonder if God would use that term to describe what has gone on at IBLP. Indeed, only after it was forced out of them through much bad publicity that any recent investigation was deemed necessary at all.
However, it is this one sentence (below) that completely destroys any value at all in assuring everyone that their 80 year old leader will no longer be leading them:
"The Board does not believe that Mr. Gothard’s shortcomings discredit the truths of God’s Word that were taught through him."
In the end, despite the need to expose the immoral and unethical conduct -- despite the attention this brought to the public -- the heretical teachings of Bill Gothard remain affirmed and will continue. Thus, he really IS still the leader, isn't he?
I will agree with one thing: Gothard's shortcomings do not affirm or discredit his teachings. His teachings were heresy and another gospel regardless of his conduct.
I want to thank the board of IBLP for once again affirming that there is nothing that God Himself can bring to light that will move them from these errors. They have made their decision and issued their statement. Light refused results in even greater darkness. Stay tuned.
This line is exactly the one that jumped out at me. The board will not acknowledge any error in IBLP teaching, thus allowing them to continue their man-made teaching. "The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John1:5 NIV
Did David Gibbs evaluate the teaching, or is that a statement based on NOT reviewing the teaching, just headin' on down the road without question or examination?
"The Board does not believe that Mr. Gothard’s shortcomings discredit the truths of God’s Word that were taught through him."
Seems like more double-speak.
I have no doubt there are some truths from God's Word that Mr. Gothard taught. Those things should be endorsed whether they come from the mouth of BG, Bill Nye, Saddam Hussein or John Piper. God's Word and the truths therein are the ultimate standard.
The trouble is that the statement does not address things BG taught that do not line up with the truths of God's Word.
Big issues:
1. Status of Bill Gothard - Positive. He is not taking the reigns again. IBLP/ATI is a personality cult so this is a death spiral for the organization.
2. Comprehensive and thorough investigation. Epic fail based on what they report. Complete denial of criminal culpability, white-washing of Bill's language with none-offensive language, no comment of culpability of the board, and it reiterates the support of the board for the curriculum and ATI and the teachings of the seminars.
3. Culpability of the board - Epic fail. "We looked at the facts and we did nothing wrong." Not unexpected, but hardly accurate. Whatever, the board failed and in this statement failed to recognize their failure. They will answer to God for this, as apparently they refuse to answer to men.
3.a. Culpability of the board (Part the Deux) - Another Epic Fail. The report fails to mention whether board members recieve some finacial renumeration for their work.
4. Scriptural validity of the teachings. - Epic fail. There was never any comment on whether the investigation included a peer review type process for Bill's teachings.
4.a. Scriptural validity of the teachings (Part the Deux) - In claiming that it is the responsiblity of the believer to search the scripture, they FAIL to address their responsility to do so as well PRIOR to the presentation of material. The deflection of responsiblity is another way of saying "We know our stuff sucks, but it's your responsiblity whether you believe it or not."
5. Scriptural validity of the culture of ATI - Epic fail. They rely financially on new converts seeking a Miracle Grow christianity, and so, but hardly unexpected, demonstrates either a cold finacial calculus, or a blindness at its error. ATI, as a para-church organization, has no administrative office in the organization of the church as presented in scripture and first/second century early church. Failure to specifically address this point is blindness at best, brutal financial calculus as worst.
6. Encouragment for a clear conscience. - Epic fail. The wording implies that once one has a clear conscience, you will come back in the fold of ATI/IBLP.
7. Claim they wish to support the local church. - Epic fail. No specific actions presented or advocated, and completely dissmissive of and/or overlooks the fact that their organization HAS BEEN the wedge that divided countless local churches. No admonition for local ATI families to remain a part of their local church even in the face of conflict over standards.
One follow up. This report demonstrates clever lack of comment on the subject of Bill's authority as a spiritual leader, both in his actions contrasted with requirements for leaders, as well as his ordination from LaGrange Bible Church.
1. According to this statement in para 4, Bill's underwhelming sin is that he failed to follow Christ's example and be blameless and above reproach. The next sentences are generic re-statments of scriptureal requirements, but do not SPECIFICALLY tie Bill's actions to them.
2. Silent of subject of ordination. One of Bill's hallmarks in his presentation of his scriptural authority is is claim that he is ordained by a church. The report is silent on the fact that this is an independent church belonging to no denomination, therefore the Board should comment on the scope of the authority granted Bill by his ordination.
This is like saying, "My friends on my block really like my bike, so I have the best bike in the world." Wrong on so many levels, and according to the intellecutal firepower on the board, they should recognize this and comment on it.
3. Follow-up. If Bill is answerable to LBC based on his ordination, is the board answerable to it as well? Once again, the report is BLINDINGLY dismissive of this point. Apparently even the board has no authority they are answerable to. This is madness. The blind leading the blind.
The other glaring absence is the lack of addressal of finances.
- What is the plan for the assets and funds currently under the control of IBLP?
- What is the plan/salary for Bill while he's allegedly not performing any work for IBLP? Is he on unpaid leave? Is he having to use his sick leave?
- What is the Board's plan for compensating those who paid seminar fees and ATI fees and bought a defective product OR were abused by Bill? Have they done their due diligence to seek out everyone who was abused by Bill's sex drive or his machiavellian leadership style? Nope.
Oh wait, it was their responsiblity to determine whether it was defective or not before believing and joining. Never mind, sorry for bringing up this point...
Moving on... What is the plan from the Board for "good works" coming out of this?
In Billy G's own words, "Majoring on a Biblical Mandate", dated Sat, June 1, 02, Bill writes some challenging words on giving and good works
" It is through good works that we most effectively answer those who question God and His ways. “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation” (I Peter 2:12).
Often, those who are antagonistic toward the Gospel are those who have had urgent needs in the past or are aware of others’ needs that were not met by those who claimed to be Christians and could have helped them. Because these people could not see any demonstration of Christ’s love from those who claim to be His followers, they rejected His whole message.
It is therefore understandable why John wrote so forcefully on this point. “Whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth” (I John 3:17–18).
The opportunities to do good works do not just “happen” nor are they interruptions to our schedule—they are preordained opportunities to discover and experience the will of God in our lives. This is the message of Ephesians 2:10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Why would IBLP have sick leave when they have all the answers for maintaining good health?
Question, these girls that go to the journey to the heart retreats.. they all have a one on one counseling session with Bill... Why is that ok?
No male dr I know is allowed to be alone with a female patient without another female in the room for legal reasons..
Why are parents OK with letting their young daughters be alone with him, but not alone with ANY other member of the opposite sex.
Its just disgusting. IBLP and ATI need to be dismantled. Its all his vision and his views.. the way he wants women to dress, to the "soft curls" that he loves, to the wisdom books, down to what your bowel movement looks like..
Its cult behaviour all around!
It's good to see the proof of:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
For any who have been on the fence, this should help them jump off. I see only #100 that hasn't come to pass, or maybe one or two others.
I sent a comment similar to this one via IBLP’s website:
David Gibbs Jr. is NOT "outside legal counsel". It is well known that he has been a close friend of the organization for years- he is a speaker at ATI conferences for crying out loud. This might as well have been called a completely internal investigation. Therefore, it is obvious we cannot accept the "results" of this "investigation”.
We knew the statement would read this way. Slippery, smooth, defensive words which are only meant to make IBLP save face and still appear good to some. Even still, I found it hard to believe that at a grievous and somber time such as this, they would choose to open up the letter with praise for themselves. That is just awkward, to put it mildly.
The most shocking, though not surprising thing, is the glaringly obvious lack of any kind of grief for the victims or even a hint of an apology! How hard is it to say "I'm sorry"? Jesus gives us a completely different way of treating people than what has been demonstrated here.
There is also a complete failure to call sin what it is: SIN. Also, what exactly does this "reconciliation" look like? Surely they understand that this disqualifies him from ministry forever? How can it be possible to continue this organization which is solely based on his teachings? They must realize that between the spiritual abuse, sexual harassment, etc., the many thousands he needs reconciliation with would not accept it before his plain acknowledgement of his sin and demonstration of repentance and grief for the victims.
To clarify, since this is my first time really commenting: I do not speak as one "bitter" about an "experience". I am an adult who spent years in ATI, but it took me many more years away before I even thought to look back and see what exactly was there. What I found shocked me. The twisting and misuse of Scripture at the foundation of the teachings is incredible. For the first time in my life I have been able to begin processing the spiritual abuse and confusion caused by this man and those who have lifted up his teachings for 50 years.
I hurt for the countless who have turned away from Jesus due to these false teachings, (see: Galatians). I am praying for those still blinded, and for so many young people who have no voice…especially those who, like myself once, do not even yet realize that they don’t have a voice.
Are there , in fact, only FIVE members to the board ?? Of the five that I saw listed on the IBLP website, only ONE had an in depth theological training (Trinity in Deerfield IL.), the rest could be great guys, but only one trained at an advanced level. Hmmmm.
"The Board does not believe that Mr. Gothard’s shortcomings discredit the truths of God’s Word that were taught through him." Of course that is true, when he was actually teaching the truths of God's Word. But his shortcomings do discredit his private revelations, principles and preferences, and his faulty application of the Mosaic Law to Christians today!
IF in fact, he taught GOD's truth, this is 100% correct. But when he comes up with the gospel according to Bill's favorite flavor of anecdote.....then we are talking about something OTHER. ONE of the elephants walking thru the room, and pausing for restroom breaks, is the question: HOW MUCH of the IBLP curriculum is worth salvaging ? How much is really built on the WORD and how much was just Bill being Bill ?? Is it worth the time and resources to do this overhaul ?
That is very accurately said Vanessa! Rachel, well said also! Thank you!
I find it odd that IBLP has not listed the nature of the allegations either in their initial statement or in this one. From all we can tell from the statements, it may have been that the allegation was that Bill Gothard was caught listening to the Newsboys in the presence of some families and staff. Bill's letter hints at some possible allegations, but includes enough topics that it isn't clear.
The complete absence of specifics leaves it open for the supporters to actually reverse it and use it as evidence of "higher standards." Maybe the only crime committed was that he watched Andy Griffith re-runs in his hotel instead of not watching TV at all, which just goes to show ya what high standards he has.
For contrast, Tiger Woods' apology may not have been perfect but it is night-and-day different from anything being offered so far by Bill or IBLP. Tiger's apology here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/19/tiger.woods.transcript/
In weeks gone by, I also thought of Jim Bakker, and the nature of his apology/repentance. Totally different, very emotional, but not maudlin, and very specific. Zero defensiveness, and it wan't about what GOD was STILL going to use him for.
Wearing my U.S. State Department hat again, I'll make an analogy here, that I hope readers will find helpful. I served at the American Embassy in Tirana, Albania from 2002-2005, and in the years following, that nation conducted what "The Economist" called a 'slow-motion' election. This means that in its efforts to become a democratic state, it tooks weeks for legitimate (vs. stuffed-ballot box) votes to be counted, in order for the rightfully-elected leadership to be seated. The results did not come easy, and required much media attention highlighting corruption, and intervention from a variety of souces, including influential members of the
international community. Eventually the goal was reached, but with not a little effort from the outside, and with the proverbial spotlight shined into theretofore dark places.
That being said, my thought after reading the latest IBLP tripe is that a similar, smoke-and-mirrors facimile of the above scenario is taking place at present. My question (now wearing the media-officer cap) is whether the mainstream press should become involved here in a significant way. I understand that publications such as "The Washington Post", "The Chicago Tribune" and various Christian outlets have reported on this in rather a hodge-podge manner, and found this year's radio interview with two of the RG moderators to be revelatory, and a firm step in the right direction. To my knowledge, however, there's been nothing in the way of a full-blown, investigative reporter exposé with a TV major network or magazine to take this matter to task.
I should note how beyond-admirable I find RG's role in this entire saga, and pray that the efforts continue. However, with respect to the ATI Board's continued, blatant obfuscation, minimizing of gross immortality, turning a blind eye to the breaking of myriad laws and continual disrespect of those adversely affected by the system, I wonder when the time will come to call out the big guns, and take care of this sprawling, gangrenous blight once and for all. On the one hand there may be concern that the liberal media may take the story and
use it to bash what it sees as hypocrisy in Christianity (à la PTL and other 1980s scandals), but on the other, a laser-like, constant exposure of the problem through journalistic/public scrutiny may be more than what the deniers are able stand up to.
Looking back at Balkan Europe, and noting the progress that Albania and neighboring nations have made over the past decade has been painstaking, but nonetheless positive and heartening to witness. BG and ATI, however, have left a trail of victims, destruction, treachery and fraud for 40+ years, the likes of which modern-day Christendom has never seen. Most alarming is the fact that it continues apace today, and makes the Netflix hit "House of Cards", with all of its byzantine machinations look like a "Leave It to Beaver" episode by comparison. To date, it has also wrought nothing less than a mind-bending, slow-motion tragedy, and barring cessation, will
continue along its grim path toward an end which all here are unhappily familiar. Any thoughts on the above suggestion?
This is most disappointing, but not at all surprising.
What is most telling is what the letter does not say and what doors are left open.
"In response to allegations against Bill Gothard, the Board sought the facts through a confidential and thorough review process conducted by outside legal counsel."
Notice that the word "independent" is missing. This was not an independent investigation. To suggest that their legal counsel would conduct an investigation that would seek the truth is really a joke. If you are having your legal counsel, who is a long time friend of the organization and Bill Gothard, conduct the investigation, the purpose is nothing more than damage control. But, for those who want to believe what they wish to believe, and want to see what they want to see, this will totally satisfy them.
"At this point, based upon those willing to be interviewed, no criminal activity has been discovered. If it had been, it would have been reported to the proper authorities immediately, as it will be in the future if any such activity is revealed. "
Since apparently no victims where interviewed, this is meaningless. When your legal counsel conducts the investigation, they will choose carefully who is interviewed and what questions are asked, in order to not find any such evidence. In fact, based on their statement that he is "legal counsel", he almost certainly has a fiduciary responsibility to the Board not to take any steps that could incriminate them or the organization. It is like having the fox investigate the matter of missing chickens in the hen house.
"At this time the Board unanimously agrees that Mr. Gothard is not permitted to serve in any counseling, leadership, or Board role within the IBLP ministry."
This is not at all the bold move that I'm sure they are hoping it is perceived to be. This action goes without saying and is required, based on what Bill Gothard has already admitted to and based on what can not possibly be denied. Only a fool could say that he is above reproach at this point. He has admitted that he acted inappropriately with young ladies. What is omitted, is that it does not say that Bill Gothard will not be employed by IBLP. He could be paid a salary as an employee, as a consultant for the organization, even as an "energy giver" for the organization, and play a significant role, while not technically being a leader or counselor. It is also no accident that they use the term: "At this time". This leaves the door wide open for Bill Gothard to return and lead, after he is gone through a period of reconciliation, under supervision.
All this really says is that he behaved inappropriately and needs a period of reconciliation. Nothing of substance is confessed. The word "sin" is missing. No apology. It is in complete concert with the letter that Bill Gothard published a few weeks ago, going no further than his statements and echoing the same next step. This, along with the Bill Gothard letter, has the smell of being very carefully crafted by legal counsel.
What this letter tells me is that Bill Gothard is still 100% running the show.
The thing I wonder is, when Bill comes back publicly will he have the same dyed dark hair, or will he be sporting a new silver I've-been-to-the-mountain-of-the-Lord look?
LOL. I am sorry for taking space but THAT is just LOL. Thanks for lightening things up.
My money says he is going silver all the way. It'll help him pull off the Moses thing, coming back with new insights, revelations from God, and renewed humility.
They do not catalog the allegations investigated, so they don't actually report anything at all. Allegations have been made for 40 years. How many people were interviewed? Were they under oath? How many accusers were interviewed? Were they granted any accommodations or were the terms of the interview dictated by Gibbs?
Did they give Gothard a draft of the report so he could write his "confession" in the same terms or did they use Gothard's "confession" as the basis for their report? The use of "inappropriate" in both documents and the neglect of "confess sin" or sincere interest in assisting those wronged looks like the documents were drafted in concert.
Were those interviewed given "release" from the obligation not to repeat a bad report? Weren't they put in an impossible position: violate the principle or conceal evil?
He could be paid millions in royalties for his rights in the copyrighted materials. Heck, Steve could be collecting royalties for all his contributions to the teachings of the truths of God.
I don't think Bill is running the show. I think the show has ended and no encore is planned. IBLP may go on but it will be a shadow of what it was and continue to decline. We all got hoodwinked by a cultural phenomenon that we/our parents were ripe for.
At this point the only justice I think we will get is that there is enough information on the internet for someone to make an informed decision, information we did not have.
So he's not a criminal, fine, kinda figured that. This is the same man that sent hundreds of young men home through the years for merely having a conversation with the other sex. It wasn't about a criminal endictment to me. I don't know if anyone wants that as it's a painful process. He is a hypocrite of titanic proportions, confirmed.
Curious what Alfred thinks of the board admitting Bill's "inappropriate" behavior. I'm assuming Bill's house doesn't have Wifi so they haven't seen the release yet.
I agree, show over. Had the board been able to muster a proper apology, their own credibility might have been salvaged. But the hypocrisy and deflection of the statement itself (starting off with talking about themselves, seriously?) ensures that the show is over for them as well. It's a slow spiral down at this point.
The only shred of hope this ministry has of survival is through the Duggars, who are truly the new spokespeople for the IBLP way of life. But once their show gets cancelled in a few years, any remaining interest in this ministry will quickly fall away...
I still hold out hope that one of those kids will find freedom when they grow up.
True that IBLP is only a shadow of what it was, but I do think he is still in control. In nautical terms, at its peak IBLP was like a battleship cruising the open seas. Now it's just one of those little pontoon boats put putting around the harbor. But, I believe Bill is still the captain, even if not officially.
"At this point the only justice I think we will get is that there is enough information on the internet for someone to make an informed decision, information we did not have. "
I agree and they will have a hard time getting new recruits. I'm also concerned about the type of recruits that they will get. I think that most of those who sought out IBLP did so because they believed it was the most biblical way to raise their family. But, also, it drew some who were very controlling and abusive, attracted by the teachings on complete authority of the father over the household. The rational ones and those who are seeking Godly teachings will mostly steer clear. But, the controlling ones may still come. In fact, the high degree of publicity may have put IBLP on the radar of many of these types of individuals. But, mostly I think that they will keep the few hard core Gothardites and see generally few new recruits altogether.
In all likelihood, they will continue to decline, as you say. But, with their assets, they can keep that little pontoon boat going around the harbor with their ever dwindling numbers for a long time. They could lose a few million a year and still survive for several decades, by selling off assets.
Members of the clergy are mandatory reporters in the state of Illinois. If Bill Gothard had minors telling him they were abused by their parents, as it has been reported here on Recovering Grace, then Bill Gothard was legally obligated to tell the police. If he did not report what he was told concerning abuse, then he broke the law. If this is indeed what happened, the IBLP statement that no laws were broken could not be true.
This statement is nothing more than a cleverly worded, IBLP-language-infused attempt to admit to as little "inappropriateness" as possible.
Until the abuse-enabling, authoritarian teachings of IBLP are admitted to be the unbiblical fraud they are, nothing will really get accomplished.
Until Bill Gothard admits to his behavior as sin and not just mere "inappropriateness," nothing will really get accomplished.
And until the victims of Gothard's abuse are treated as real people who have been wounded and addressed on their terms instead of IBLP's, nothing will really get accomplished.
This is nothing short of sickening.
And the banal legalese of the statement indicates not only that the board has taken leave of their non-optional principals (it in no way conforms to scriptural requirements for responding to offenses), but that they know the charges are serious enough they could be the subject of a civil lawsuit.
I just want to say something about submitting comments that are not being published. I know I prolly sound like a broken record, but the Twitter platform has a lot of potential power. Witness what happened last week with the Leadership Journal reversal on the article written by a convicted child molester.
Feedback can be directed to @IBLP and posted in a very public way. Even if IBLP blocks someone, they can't prevent the comment from being seen by the world. If someone can come up with a catchy hashtag, and enough people use it, I'm certain critical mass would result.
It doesn't seem like there is a significant representation of ATI and ex-ATI people on Twitter, which is somewhat of a shame, and I do understand what is behind it. But as an outsider (my family of origin is involved in ATI, not me), I just wanted to put this out there for consideration.
I've been using the hashtags #checkyourtheology and #needindieinvestigation, but I'm sure some of you creative types could come up with something way better. :>
#iblpcoverup #iblpinsideinvestigationgonewrong #stopthecoverup #whatisiblphiding
Anyone else got any ideas?
"If someone can come up with a catchy hashtag"
ok I will start (love to brainstorm)...
#hashtagbillsit
#othersideofthemountainoftruth
#IBLdontPonmylegandtellmeitsraining
#justplainbills*it
#nowforsomethingdifferentTHETRUTH
#HOLYUMBRELLABATMAN
Did you mean "#HOLEYUMBRELLABATMAN"? :-)
either way ---how about
#theholeyholyumbrella
#Billsaysreturnyouradoptedchildren
#Billsaysitmustfloat
#Billsayscabbagepatchdollskillsperm
#Billsaysicanseeyoursuperiorcontenancefromacrosstheroom
#IBLPsidesagainstGodsGrace
I can't stop laughing at the #Billsaysitmustfloat. That's a true insider joke! Hahaha!
#Billsaysitmustfloat.
OMG! I hope that is not referring to what I think it is referring to. lol
Did he really teach that?
#nostandards
You guys are funny. :>
After today's quote in the Chicago Sun-Times, how about #hejustdughisowngrave?
LOL.
Appears to be Parliamentary supremacy
I think Bill should stay with the dark hair appeal as It's humble and provocatively youthful.
One positive point about this statement: the board didn't offer paltry qualifications like the Gothard statement did (i.e., "yeah, it was bad, but not that bad.")
I posted the following comment on RG in late February before the resignation:
==============
Here's how this attorney sees this playing out:
Bill will get his graceful exit. Notice the Board statement does not identify the substance of the investigation but only alludes to "assertions." It's unthinkable that the Board didn't demand (and get) the truth, which should have resulted in immediate termination. Nevertheless, that seems to be the case. A leave of absence buys them time.
Where will it go from there? The Board will "investigate." There will be no independent investigators brought in. At some future point, perhaps a month from now, the Board will announce that there has been a thorough, Biblical investigation, and that they are accepting his resignation to allow for healing and the Advancement of the Kingdom. The announcement will contain few (if any) details or recriminations. Gothard will profess his deep sorrow over "hurts" and will express his hope for restoration and healing. His confession will contain no specific admissions, but will include some vaguely-worded and conveniently malleable statement (e.g. "defrauded").
Gothard will step down and the Board will have no choice to make it real this time. He's done. Seriously, folks, he's done. The ministry cannot continue without its figurehead. The Board said it would appoint interim leadership...shoot, they should have done that before issuing the statement! No one from the outside will want to take over the organization and no one internally has been set up as the heir apparent. The departures of the rational families and attendees who will split will accelerate IBLP's financial troubles. It can't survive; it's bleeding cash already. It'll start selling off properties and will be spun down within a year.
If any of you wanted to own a hotel, there'll be a fire sale before too long.
wow, your crystal ball seems to be working pretty well :-)
The hotels are likely worthless. All were received in very poor condition, likely little mechanical upgrades that would last. Paneling and carpeting can only cover so much on a building like those.
On a positive note, I commend Recovering Grace for their efforts in the journey so far. Without this website, Bill Gothard would still be serving in his former role. Thank you RG volunteers! To me it speaks very loudly that he is banned from serving in the very ministry he created. This letter has been written for the readership of existing cult members, and given that their intense loyalty to the ministry is wrapped up so tightly with Bill Gothard himself (and not Jesus), I think they realise they are set to lose a lot of repeat enrolments and of course, money! If they offend people and by boldly shaming Gothard, those that follow Gothard (and not Jesus) will leave the cult... I would never expect a ministry of such hypocrisy to admit to the claims made on the RG website. The fact that Gothard has been banned from serving in his own ministry speaks louder than this very carefully written, polite letter which is an attempt to keep the peace among existing cult members.
AMEN
Is he banned from teaching or writing for the Institute?
It appears to me, Don, that developing curriculum and writing for the Institute is not prohibited. They were VERY specific on what he was NOT allowed to do, which in Institute-speak means they already have a list of what he IS allowed to do. And it would appear from today's news article which interviewed Gothard yesterday (http://www.suntimes.com/news/28159812-418/ex-head-of-religious-group-acted-inappropriately-not-criminally-investigation.html) that Gothard has plans of returning to the ministry, just not "right now."
This is an eye-opening quote from Gothard in the Sun Times article:
"I just have a desire to work with and encourage the young people that I have served in the past and I want to continue that on a personal basis.”
I rebuke this desire in this man. I urge every father and mother to refuse to allow their minor child to work with this man on a personal basis. I also urge every young adult to refuse to work with this man on a personal basis. This man should only work with people more mature than he, who are wise to his ways and who have the ability to offer him correction.
Amen to all that, and work WITH people, not OVER people, and perhaps better yet: STOP WORKING and minstering, breathe deep, figure out who GOD is, who we are, what GRACE is..... take a few yrs off to do this, as needed. Reject any worries about "my legacy" or the future of IBLP.
Bill's use of the word "serve" makes my blood boil! He didn't serve those young people, he used them.
VERY well said, Gemma; the IBLP letter certainly did not go far enough, but we can be encouraged by what little we got: Bill out of the roles mentioned is a good start at least, and RG is to be commended for helping with that.
You can't separate the message from the messenger. And everything about IBLP and ATI that made them unique was from Bill Gothard.
The one statement from the board that I really liked was: "All of us are reminded of our need to look to Jesus and to His Word “for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (II Timothy 3:16). We are committed to evaluating each part of the ministry on the basis of God’s Word, and we encourage everyone to search the Scriptures to determine what is true, as did the Bereans (see Acts 17)." I.e., don't just believe BG. Perhaps this statement was added by someone who is beginning to view the teachings of BG with a jaundiced eye...
After reading every single comment posted thus far, I'm saddened to see many posts on Recovering Grace by those who themselves are not responding in a grace manner. While critical of IBLP's dishing out legalism instead of grace, some are dishing out ridicule instead of grace. There is a sliding into the snide, smart-aleck, mocking tone by some.
We who are pointing fingers at those who have abused truth, twisting it to their own interpretation, must not disregard truth ourselves.
"Do not return evil for evil."
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him."
"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles, or the Lord will see it and be displeased and turn His anger away from him."
We are to speak the truth in love, not in derision and contemptuous ridicule. Love is not mousy and mushie, but at the very least it is not rude.
How exactly are some, to quote you, "not responding in a grace manner"? You describe some as "snide, mocking, and smart aleck". I believe some of what you are referring to is nothing more than humor. And we need humor to get us through difficult times and to lighten things up. Not sure that's a sin. You say truth must not be disregarded while some "point fingers" and you reference "Do not return evil for evil". Well, no one here is twisting scripture, sexually harassing minors, or making people work for free. You say "don't answer a fool..." Well, it is pretty clear that Bill won't let anyone answer him, because he won't listen to anyone. So how can any of these comments make the posters foolish? And your last point "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls..." I don't see Bill as fallen, his board seems to have let him off the hook. So how can anyone rejoice? Maybe you could provide some examples. I've read everyone's comments as well, and there is an overwhelming census that BG is getting away with this, and everyone seems sad, upset, and disturbed at his "stumbles". I don't see anyone rejoicing as he falls. For me, I'd rejoice if he genuinely repented and reached out to the many victims to make restitution.
Humor- it is a difficult concept for Vulcans and legalist Christians.
oh, thank you for this snarky comment!! This made me giggle for the rest of the evening at work. My dad was the "gothardite" in the house and envisioning with pointy ears (he's already got the furrowed forehead from never smiling) was just the funniest thing to me.
Always a good idea (though I don't always follow my own advice here sometimes) to do a "charity check", and for that, your post is welcome. BUT I think some of the mocking is aimed not so much at Bill as at what he taught/teaches. And I would suggest that his teaching cries out to be mocked, that this is ONE way to present Bill's foolishness. And Bill's teaching is so weird to begin with, it's hard to know what is a caricature, and what is not.
Linda-Lee, you are correct. However, covering up sin and other notorious irresponsibility naturally produces ridicule. I will take your correction to heart, admitting that I have inappropriately responded. I also confess that is sin.
I think I will make this my response to IBLP:
I rebuke Gibbs and the Board for organizing half truths refusing to call sin sin and their unwillingness to allow sinful conduct and false teaching within their organization to be scrutinized by an independent examination within the church.
I urge IBLP to be connected to the head of the Church (Col. 2:19). I urge them to pursue peace with all those who have been injured by the ministry and its officers and agents. (I Pet. 3:11)
To all ATI and IBLP supporters I urge each one to abide in this truth from I John 3:6-8:
"6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."
And I urge all of us to abide in Him and do not resist the destruction of the devil's work in each of us.
Seems to me that to say,"I wish those people who were telling you to be circumcised would just chop the whole thing off" would be a similar sort of humor, no?
Linda; Did you read what Jesus said about the Pharisees, what Paul said about false teachers and the extreme warnings & results in Revelation?
John the Baptist didn't tone it down either when preaching change. When we are exposing decades of heresy and hypocricy it's not a tea party.
Steve, I am total agreement with all that RG is doing and thank God for it. Truly. I do believe with everything in me that Bill is a false teacher, a wolf in sheep's clothing, and fits into the description in Jude that these teachers will be in our Love Feasts -- that is, we will have close fellowship with them in our churches. I am thankful his evil deeds have been exposed.
I do believe that he should not return to ministry in any form because he has completely, totally disqualified himself biblically. I do believe that his hypocrisy, his abuse of authority, his sexaul sins against the many are valid reasons to see him this way, as well as his teachings. I am not in defense of him or the ministry, how they have handled him or this whole mess. I only want to caution all of us who are upset and are on many levels frustrated with cover-ups, etc. that we ourselves heed the warning of being "hardened by the deceitfuness of sin" (Heb. 3:13) in our own hearts in our desire to see him permanently removed and, if possible, have just repercussions for his sins, and the ministry closed.
None of us is Jesus, and John the Baptist was one of a kind, anointed by God for his particular style of ministry, calling people to repentance. Both used very strong language. James did, too, when he called those who had come to love the world 'adulterers.' Paul called the Galatians who had moved into the camp of the legalist Jews 'fools' for embracing another gospel. I'm not unaware of strong biblical language that is appropriate for the situation.
But dare we not monitor our own hearts and words in the fear of the Lord as we are judge a so-called brother (who is most likely not a brother), whom we have every right to judge, even as the apostle Paul did on numerous occasions and encouraged his readers to do? That is the purpose of my cautionary words.
What we are seeking in this process is that God's glory, and that needs to be reflected in our discussion.
I just submitted this on the IBLP website. I would've put it as a reply to David's comment above but the right side of this page is cut off on my phone and I can't hit reply on comments. :)
As a former member of ATI, I am glad to hear that the IBLP recognizes that Bill Gothard's behavior was inappropriate, and disqualifies him from ministry at this time. But I am concerned that "The Board does not believe that Mr. Gothard’s shortcomings discredit the truths of God’s Word that were taught through him." This flies in the face of Matthew 7:15-16, which tells us that a person's "fruit" reveals the validity of their message.
What fruit do we see in Bill Gothard's life? If the habitual inappropriate behavior acknowledged by the Board is bad enough to disqualify him from ministry, then it is certainly bad enough to call his teachings into question, especially where his interpretations of scriptures differ greatly from what they have historically been understood to mean.
I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the paragraph in the Board's statement: "All of us are reminded of our need to look to Jesus and to His Word “for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (II Timothy 3:16). We are committed to evaluating each part of the ministry on the basis of God’s Word, and we encourage everyone to search the Scriptures to determine what is true, as did the Bereans (see Acts 17)." However it is undermined by the preceding sentence, though I continue to pray that everyone still under the influence of IBLP and ATI will indeed begin to question and evaluate Gothard's teachings.
Not once in that message was the word LOVE used. Not once!
That's because this ministry is not a ministry. It is a spiritual club with a habiliment requirement. The message of the freedom of the gift of God's love has never been emphasized. Is it any shock to the readers of RG that there are so many who are hurt or turned off because of IBLP? The true message of God's love never turns people away, it's man's manipulation of it that causes distress.
Putting Bill Gothard out on the doorstep is not going to solve IBLP's problems. To be honest, there are others in leadership who have done the same things that Bill is accused of and far worse. IBLP will continue to have more and more implosions until it dissolves completely, unless someone takes the helm and starts focusing on the most basic of biblical principles - and that is love.
The sordid antics of the ministry are turning people away from God in droves; I have been one of those people and I know many like me. The arguments over the legality of what body parts of students Bill touched or the polemics over appropriate scripture verses are only making it worse. At some point we need to set down our swords, pick up some bandages and start ministering to those who have been cut deeply with the inappropriate and fallacious interpretations of the message of Jesus. Sadly, I am not holding my breath for this because when it comes down to it, the ministry has not shown any real interest in restoring their wounded.
"Giving The World A New Approach To Life." Even the slogan shrieks to Bill's arrogance. The simple message of Jesus' love is not new and dressing it up with standards only detracts from the purity and simplicity of the truth that God loves you no matter what.
Lovely reminder. Thank you Former Student. I agree. The central message of the Bible is God's love for us and His showing this in Christ Jesus both bodily, with His works, and, in His laying down His life - not a sterile "be born again" speech to "get ya in".
"Giving The World A New Approach To Life." Even the slogan shrieks to Bill's arrogance. The simple message of Jesus' love is not new and dressing it up with standards only detracts from the purity and simplicity of the truth that God loves you no matter what." Great statement.
This is not likely to happen, but I'll start to acknowledge some credability to IBLP when they acknowledge that Bill's penchant for novelty (NEW approach to life) was largely (if not entirely) a by product of Bill's ego and narcissism. This could be admitted to without throwing out all he taught, but the push for "new", "formerly forgotten", "never before taught", etc. owes more to Joseph Smith than Jesus Christ and HIS followers.
I was always taught, regarding God's Word, "If it's new, it's not true. If it's true, it's not new." Maybe new to YOU, but not in the world of Christendom. I think Bill, consumed with his own hubris, forgot to read Ecclesiastes. Nothing new under the sun.
New wineskin (pkg. ONLY) maybe, but let's not get too excited about even this. We should be excited that GOD , who is not a respector of persons, offers the same gospel to men and women throughout the ages. We don't get a better, or worse, offer than the saints of any church age. that's good news. the bigger the hype about NEW, the more likely that somebody is going to trumpet that into a ministry that 'GOD started' , and finds indespensable
Boz Tchividjian's tweet: A Christian organization attempts to sacrifice souls in order to preserve itself. Neither will happen.
First paragraph of this year old document is very applicable:
http://netgrace.org/a-public-statement-concerning-sexual-abuse-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ/
"... far too often, the Church’s instincts are no different than from those of many other institutions, responding to such allegations by moving to protect her structures rather than her children."
How about "A man's morality dictates his theology"?? Hmm? Shouldn't Bill Gothard's own teaching call his teachings into suspect at this point due to his immorality?
Exactly. The excuses of "Oh, he just made some mistakes," "Oh, people who abuse others are misusing the IBLP teachings," and "There are people who benefited from IBLP" just don't hold up when Gothard didn't live up to the standards he imposed on everyone else, and patterns can be found among people in positions of authority who embraced his teachings - fathers, pastors, and the like - who exhibited patterns of abusive behavior.
Does the IBLP statement strike you as odd? I mean in the context of statements in general. I know they are attempting to gloss over things, etc, but the entire mode of communication seems strange. It's hard to put a finger on it, but the style is very strange. It's vagueness makes it seem like a response to a conversation to which the reader is not privy.
Maybe it's just so strange to hear this type of communication in which listeners are expected to swallow every line without proof.
I think that's it. They are not self aware enough to know how this will be perceived.
I just read yesterday's Sun News article. Here is a quote:
Asked if he engaged in sexual harassment, Gothard said, “Sexual harassment is to a large extent intent, and my intent was never to harass them.”
Wow, and double wow!!!! So you can treat someone any way you like, as long as you can say you don't 'intend' to hurt them? People could really run with that one. "Oh, but Mr. Gothard, I didn't intend to defraud my girlfriend." I guess he didn't 'intend' to brainwash all these young people through sleep deprivation, etc. Yesterday I dropped a mouse into some water. "I didn't intend to drown it......it just wouldn't swim. Ok so it was already dying of poison, but.....not my fault.....it drank the kool-aid"
. "I didn't intend to drown it......it just wouldn't swim.." This should not be funny, but I just could not help myself, I didn't intend to laugh anyways.....
Sunflower,
You are exactly right. When I read this I thought of his statement in April " I do want to state that I have never kissed a girl nor have I touched a girl immorally or with sexual intent". So it really is all about him. What he intended not what he actually did. It is like saying I'm sorry you are upset. I never meant to upset you. He is oblivious to the damage he caused because he never intended to damage anyone. It appears that he just intended to enjoy himself, and viewed all these girls as objects to be used. How very appalling this all is.
"because he never intended to damage anyone. It appears that he just intended to enjoy himself"
Bingo. Nail has been hit on the head. Alia. THAT is what this is about - and of course lots of bad hermeneutics and doctrine.
Could I ask a favor of you. Could you please provide me with the link to that story/statement. I could not find it. I will put it to good use!
Larne Gabriel
author "Ruth's Story"
Here is the URL to the Chicago Sun-Times article - who actually interviewed Bill Gothard.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/28159812-418/ex-head-of-religious-group-acted-inappropriately-not-criminally-investigation.html
Thank you.
Larne
Girls don't intend to get pregnant out of wedlock either--it just happens and whatever actions are involved are justified if they really didn't intend to get pregnant. I now understand the IBLP perspective! At least that's what I'm hearing.
Getting pregnant is not evil. Unwed pregnancy is not a sin. I think your point would be better made if you turned it around on the male, who surely did not intend to impregnate her. The reason this is important is because a pregnant single girl cannot avoid the responsibility, regardless of her subsequent choices. Either having a baby or having an abortion is something a woman lives with the rest of her life. It is the man who ignores any responsibility because he didn't mean to.
Sunflower wrote:
"I just read yesterday's Sun News article. Here is a quote:
Asked if he engaged in sexual harassment, Gothard said, “Sexual harassment is to a large extent intent, and my intent was never to harass them.” "
I wonder if it is just a matter of time before the IBLP board and/or BG will be calling for Bill's victims to seek forgiveness for their role in these incidents.
He must be thinking of rape. That is a specific intent crime. It's funny how he just makes stuff up and then his followers repeat it as gospel. I'll bet you hear other patriarchal pastors use the "intent" defense in coming months.
PS So then, what WAS the intent?
I'll take "Questions That Won't Be Answered" for $500, Alex.
Oh my gosh, too funny!!
From The Chicago Sun Times:
"As for whether he has any interest in returning to the institute in a ministerial or leadership capacity, he (Gothard) said, 'That’s not my goal or desire right now. I just have a desire to work with and encourage the young people that I have served in the past and I want to continue that on a personal basis.'"
So he DOES intend to continue -- only now instead of in an official capacity, he intends to do it in an unofficial capacity. Guess what? Heresy does the same damage whether it be out of an official capacity or unofficial capacity. And frankly, I suspect that not much is going to change at all except the title after the name.
David,
Could I ask a favor of you. Could you please provide me with the link to that story/statement. I could not find it. I will put it to good use!
Larne Gabriel
author "Ruth's Story"
Larne, per your request: http://www.suntimes.com/28159812-761/ex-head-of-religious-group-acted-inappropriately-not-criminally-investigation.html#.U6M1wPkcGYm. Blessings, -J.
Thank you!
Larne
My opinion is that as long as Bill is regarded as near-faultless (many recognize human weakness and failings as ok--holy enough so to speak) or as long as he can be seen to somehow in some deep and meaningful way always be right, his continuing in any capacity is dangerous as well as his theology (which carries all of IBLP teaching with it into question and need of careful scrutiny). In personally coming back to the gospel (repentence and forgiveness of sins with righteousness seen as a gift of God), I found that attempting to wade back toward IBLP teachings from that standpoint to be impossible and it demonstrates the error in the very perspectives of IBLP and its teachings. It's the entire frame of reference that is wrong. In the end, they are looking in the wrong place to attempt to route out particular incorrect teachings--it's the mindset itself that is off. It is impossible to please God in the way attempted.
You are correct. Except that he is faultless. No one has determined he has any fault. Rather, he is nearly inappropriatenessless. Nearly.
Well, at least if he never "intended" to do anything wrong when he touched girls inappropriately... Why bother to fault people for mere actions when we don't know if they intended to be bad in them and they claim when under pressure that their intentions were innocent? Who am I to judge?? I used to be involved in prison ministry, and you would be amazed at how many innocent men are sitting behind bars. They never intended....
but all his follower's actions, (even the innocent act of a toddler running around naked or a boy saying hellow to a girl) were deemed "defrauding and sinful".
Love for the victims,downtrodden;those thrown under the bus or worse,their testimony could never be accepted by the top heavy.The end justifies the means and though the means have been inconveniently interrupted,by RG,the end will still have the façade of compassion,subtle overtures of appeal to makeover the weaknesses with moral reform,scripture memorization,that inner discipline of "mind and spirit"I'm sure Gothard's staff will help your attempts for perfect outward appearances.But what they haven't done is see the spurned cries of many of these victims for acceptance,fellowship at the foot of the cross,based on their total redemption.Give someone an ear to hear,a heart to bring from the spirit world the Savior's precious words,and a true shepherd is manifest.May He comefort these victims before it's too late.They form significant long lines,though their voices may not be above a muffled whisper.At one time vulnerable,trusting naïve.Girls.No longer to be exploited.Boys,taught to be tough but inwardly fragile.How many more of these once the seminars launch the same agendas as before will be forcibly expoited,helpless to stop what should have been stopped.God isn't glorified until the weakest is rescued.
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This is straight off University of California's website. You do not need to intend to commit sexual harassment, it merely has to have the impact of creating a harassing environment:
Intent v. Impact. Whether or not the person whose conduct is experienced as harassing intended harassment has generally been considered by most courts as not relevant to determining whether or not sexual harassment has occurred. In most cases it is the effect of the conduct on the person who is on the receiving end and the characteristics of the conduct that determine if the conduct constitutes sexual harassment. Laws and court holdings have been very clear that, if a supervisor states to an employee "sleep with me or I will fire you" using a defense of "I was just joking" will not and has not been permitted.
Every few weeks I have an orientation class for new employees, and show a video on sexual harassment in the workplace. In the video it describes the different types of this problem. According to the law (help me out, O Smart Ones) sexual harassment is based upon how the victim perceives the action. Even those who are a third party, apparently, and are negatively affected by the action are able to claim that they have been harassed.
Quid Pro Quo harassment is the scenario where the employer provides advancement or placement if the victim fulfills his or her wishes, usually sexually oriented.
Hostile Work Environment is described as a situation where other employees make the workplace a hellhole by teasing or harassing.
Just a few benefits of working in an HR job.
"He acted in an “inappropriate manner, but “no criminal activity was discovered.” How very interesting that this is just what First Baptist Church's internal investigation of Jack Schaap revealed. "The pastor . . . has been dismissed because of a “sin” [but] church officials didn’t believe anything criminal occurred". http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/14133914-418/pastor-of-hammond-mega-church-fired-for-sin.html . Guess what? They were wrong. Schaap's now in prison.
Yes, and David Gibbs, Jr. was his attorney who promised the church a thorough investigation. Gibbs also represented Check Phelps and Lester Roloff.
In other words, holiness before God is defined by the ability or inability of the US justice system to catch and prosecute things it deems illegal--not by God's standards. So they admitted that there are differing standards of measurement in the system! If I can weasel out of something legally, I can stand justified. Theologically, that is called: legalism.
C'mon! It's not like they didn't find him guilty of inappropriatenesses!
The iPandora blog of June 18 entitled, "FOX COMPLETES INVESTIGATION OF HEN HOUSE MYSTERY" (love that), there is an updated paragraph at the bottom that states: "A friend with more current connections to IBLP HQ says the board was more explicit in their statement to HQ staff that Bill would not ever be allowed to return to positions of responsibility in the organization."
Another huge problem for me is this statement, "We believe that God still desires to use Bill Gothard for His work in the Kingdom of God". Really, really, God still desires to use someone who has disqualified himself by his own actions, and the IBLP Board knows what God desires. The statement seems incredibly arrogant. It is also very clever to state they believe he has not lived up to the high standards of scripture so AT THIS TIME the board agrees that he cannot hold various positions within the organization. Do they really think this will all blow over and go away?
News Flash: BG's victims Do Not want to be reconciled to him; that is creepy. Let
them forgive, if and when, in their own process, but for goodness sake, allow them
their well-deserved dignity and space.
^^^ Yes what Rebekah said!!!!!
I'm estimating from what has emerged so far that thousands of adulteries and fornications have been committed by people who have gone through Bill Gothard's programs--from ATI youth all the way up to the Vice President. Many, many of these either wrote his material or implemented it. And most who have made it through his system without falling into 'moral failure' have no intention of involving their children in it.
What has stood out most to me in comments from the board and Mr. G himself is the progression of admitting to more and more all the while desperately trying to veil the actions as something other than sin. First G says he's never touched, kissed, had sex with a girl. Then he says he's never done any of it with sexual intent. Then he says sexual harassment is almost all about intent and he never intended to harass anyone. Then the board finally states that none of G's actions were criminal. What?! How about immoral, sin and against all Biblical teaching? That's what they were supposed to be judging. Instead they judge simply by the lowest secular standard since apparently he can meet no other standard. Very telling.
David Pigg/6/19/14:
"May He comefort these victims before it's too late.They form significant long lines,though their voices may not be above a muffled whisper.At one time vulnerable,trusting naïve.Girls.No longer to be exploited.Boys,taught to be tough but inwardly fragile.How many more of these once the seminars launch the same agendas as before will be forcibly expoited,helpless to stop what should have been stopped.God isn't glorified until the weakest is rescued."
Thank you, David. Just read this today. This is the ache of my heart.
May we continue to give it to Jesus. May we continue to obey the promptings of the Holy Spirit to each day listen and do what He says.
Omnipotent, Omniscient, Sovereign God is in charge; He has won the victory already.
We won't give up.
Thank you, RG.
Justice. Mercy. Humiltiy.
A must read: http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/a-real-investigation-into-iblp.html
Link doesn't work
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Thanks, I did
Great post!
wow- what a thorough list of things that break waaay too many laws and rules, both of God and the land...too bad the woman who writes the blog (and who did a great job of compiling the list) feels better in her life as an atheist having been raised in a gothardite setting, complete with look and image all outward but very little inward as she herself stated she only prayed because her mom told her to, seeing God only as something big and scary ready to pound those who do not follow those non-optional principals (my words).
She is raising her kids to be atheist and though I am sure she is a great person and has lovely children, it is a sad testament to BG's legacy of image and rules over heart, feeling and love. If he only had a heart and could feel the pain of even one little lamb going astray....but then that proves he is not of God and not even one of His shepherds who leave the flock to go find the one lost. I hope she one day sees the real Christ for who He really is.
Please don't misrepresent me. I never prayed "just because my mother asked me to". One needn't look far to find ex-ATI kids who have also left Christianity. I know of hundreds.
sorry-no misrepresentation meant--- just going by what I read at your blog, which I perused in a hurry---should have read more carefully---...yes I realize there are numerous x-ATI kids who have left Christianity and that is a big black eye for those who want to spread Christianity but are doing so from selfish or less than pure motives. You are owed one big apology by those of us who still believe in God. I hope and pray that someday you find the one true God who loves you more than the life of His son Jesus.
A quick note on behalf of former Christians. (Jeri or anyone else, please correct me if I'm getting this wrong.)
It is easy for Christians to assume that when someone leaves our faith that the reason is because Bill Gothard or [insert name of bad Christian here] gave them an incorrect idea of God, and If They Only Knew The Real Jesus, they would never have left or would come back in a heartbeat. This is a perfectly understandable view to hold, but, at the same time, I think it does a disservice to those who have left the Christian faith. There is every chance in the world that a former Christian understands the concept of a loving God who freely gives grace to anyone but honestly does not believe the claims of Christianity. (Unlike what I understand to be the portrayal of atheists in that God's Not Dead film, atheists tend not to be mad or bitter at God because they do not believe there is a God to be mad or bitter at.) I try to assume that the people whose beliefs are different than mine have come to their beliefs with the same honesty and intellectual rigour as I have come to my beliefs. It makes for better dialogue.
I agree totally, Jeff Gill. Perhaps, there may be some who think they are rejecting Christ, when they are really rejecting legalism-to-the-max (the opposite of the good news of Jesus). But I, like you, assume people eventually sort matters out and realize that they still believe they are sinners in need of free, unmerited forgiveness by a loving God, through Christ, after rejecting the legalism. Or, they realize they never believed that in the first place, after they also rejected the legalism.
I also agree that it makes for better dialogue with people to have honorable assumptions about their thinking, until such time as a dialogue with them reveals otherwise. And we need to also be continually challenging our own beliefs and assumptions, if we indeed are truth seekers.
Jeff, good points. I also think that if we blame Gothard's or anyone's "failures" on an unbelieving heart, we make the same mistake as Gothard, believing that if you follow the RIGHT formula, everything will work our right. God's election is not subject to our comprehension and the will of man is not subject to manipulation by others. People have been baptising children for 1900+ years, hoping it will move them toward heaven and they never get there. Each must respond, not because we want them to, but because their hearts are captivated by the Grace of God. The best we can do is be party to the invitation.
Probably as many have been won to Christ through BG as have been alienated by him, but a positive ratio does not validate the false teaching or hypocrisy.
I argued with myself for a whole half-minute about whether to put this link here because it does have the f word in it (what else would a mouse say if an elephant stepped on its toes?) but the point to me was that the elephant, so big and self-important could not fathom that it had even hurt the little mouse, even though it had no intent to do so, by stepping on the mouse's little feet.
In the elephant I see both BG and the board.
http://rlstollar.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/elephant-and-mouse-a-fairy-tale/
Thanks, esbee, for linking that story--it was an excellent depiction of the situation, especially the riff on intent! :)
Thank you to the side that won out in favor of linking it :-) A good parable, I'm glad to know about it.
I don't know where lese to put this -
I have visited here less and less frequently and have actually grown weary of the topics at hand. I'm not sure if it is because RG's work is done in my life or if my ATI-raised wife and I are just "moving on" Anyway before I disappear, I do want to say goodbye and thank you. I especially enjoy reading comments from MatthewS and Beverly, you all always have sound wisdom and are a credible voice - see you in Heaven (no red notebooks there :)) I am saddened to read of some who have left the faith, may the Lord have mercy on you - don't let the trappings of man keep you from the eternal joy of Christ. God bless.
Wow, thanks for the shout-out, grateful. I've really enjoyed reading your comments and dialoguing with you as well! Yes, I think the goal of healing is for us to reach those points where we know we've healed enough to move forward in strength and focus on other areas of life. And sometimes healing is cyclical, where we keep coming and going in addressing past issues, but as we're honestly addressing the pain, it eventually hurts less and less each time we do. Blessings on you and your wife, grateful!
Thank you for the kind comments, grateful! Best wishes to you and your wife in your journeys.
Grateful, it has been nice to read you stuff these past months. It has been refreshingly "non churched up." I remember when the turning point came when you could see that BG was not what he seemed to be. I have been "rooting for you" ever since. Bless you and your family.