Since our readership has rapidly expanded over the past few years, and especially during the past few months, we want to take some time this summer to draw attention to earlier articles for those who may have missed them. Today's article was among those from last year and was published on Recovering Grace in
May of 2013.
I have heard many people talk about how they still want to be involved in ATI (the Advanced Training Institute), but be “normal” families and just “filter out the bad stuff.” I’ve seen some of those responses in the Recovering Grace comments. If that’s your premise, then this post is for you, because that’s my story. My family were the normal ones.
If you are unaware or not convinced of the many scriptural fallacies taught in ATI, please read some of the other excellent posts here on Recovering Grace. The purpose of sharing my story is to warn the best intentioned of you that you will not escape serious negative effects resulting from involvement with ATI.
If it is actually possible to be a normal family and still be in ATI, we were that family. When I say “normal,” I mean that we were truly “in the world but not of the world,” as opposed to the ATI model of completely removing all outside influences from family life. Clothing was not emphasized as a measure of holiness. I wore skirts on Sundays and jeans the rest of the week. We were not banned from higher education. My parents both had college educations and the three of us children were expected to go to college. (In fact, one of my parents’ biggest oppositions when I got married was that neither my husband nor I had completed our degrees. This emphasis on higher education was certainly not classic ATI teachings.)
Sports were not banned as a waste of time or as false idols. My eldest brother and I were on the swim team — wearing Speedos, no less! In fact, we all played organized sports. My dad took it as a source of pride when the boys picked his baby girl to play on their teams, because she was actually pretty good. We were not banned from friendships with the opposite sex. My skiing buddy from age 10-15 was a boy, and we spent most of the days skiing alone, unsupervised.
Music was not restricted according to the ATI guidelines. We listened to music with a mild rock beat. Even hot topics in the general Christian community, like movies and questionable games, were not turned into a huge issue in our home. We went to movie theaters and we played cards. We were not banned from potential negative influences at church. My siblings and I were involved with the youth group and other ministries in our church, and active with church events. I know that we were an anomaly in the ATI environment at the time. Because we were practically the only ATI family in our area, we didn’t face the type of peer pressure to conform to ATI standards that many families experienced. The pressure in ATI for girls to be preparing for only one adult role did not affect us. My parents were adamant that a woman is called to be more than a doormat (cook, housekeeper and baby maker). I remember once my mom telling me that she strongly disagreed with the teaching that if a wife disagreed with her husband, she could do nothing but sit in silence and pray.
A career outside of marriage was allowed — even encouraged. Both of my parents fully supported me in my searching for a career after high school. My parents weren’t typical ATI parents any more than we were typical ATI kids. In fact, my mom had a teaching career herself when she convinced my dad that we should homeschool. Her reasonings were more out of educational than religious convictions. She left her job believing she could give us a more solid education at home. My parents filtered the ATI teachings through their own belief system, instead of blindly parroting everything that came out of the mouth of Bill Gothard. Other than being homeschooled and in ATI, we were a “normal” conservative Christian family.
Here’s the thing, though: We still did all those stinking Wisdom Books. Every. Single. Day. I completed the entire series two and a half times by the time I graduated. So guess what theology I was learning from before I could even read? Can you imagine how many twisted interpretations and applications of Scripture I’m still trying to straighten out? Being allowed to wear tank tops in front of boys made me appear “normal,” but the way I viewed the world was not normal at all. I was taught the wrong definition of grace through my entire childhood! It wasn’t until I went to seminary that I learned about scriptural exegesis. I had learned to recite the Greek alphabet and pronounce the Greek words, and I was a pro at using a concordance to search through key words and find Greek roots. But how to examine Scripture in context? I had no clue. Context is not used much in ATI, since proper hermeneutics and context prevent topically leapfrogging through the Bible to twist verses to an agenda. I didn’t know the difference between “prescription” and “description” until I was 21.
All my years of learning “scriptural principles” had to be revisited, evaluated, and adjusted. I attended a church not influenced by ATI teachings, and once teased our associate pastor that I needed to wear steel toe boots to Sunday school, because every time he taught he was undoing twelve-plus years of learning in about an hour. I was glad to learn the truth, but it’s frustrating and often sickening to compare it to what we had learned! I feel resentment over the numerous hours that I once spent studying the Bible during Wisdom searches only to find that those studies were in vain. The days I thought were spent learning more about my precious Savior turned out to be a man’s legalistic teachings. I wonder if Paul felt this way when he looked back on his years studying as a Pharisee. I wonder if he felt that he had wasted the time, and if he later struggled to wrap his mind around the truth.
These thoughts go through my head every time I see a commenter on Recovering Grace say they’re going to do ATI and just “throw out the bad stuff.” You do that and there’s not enough good stuff left to be worth it! We were those people. My parents threw out as much as you could and still be involved — and I still am left reeling some days. I can’t feel anger toward them, because they honestly were trying to do their best for us. My parents had started homeschooling at a time when it was definitely not in vogue. Some parents were arrested and their children taken by the state for the audacity to think they could teach their own children better than the established methods of education. Most school supply and textbook companies refused point blank to deal with homeschoolers. But into that uncertain future my parents marched, knowing it was what was best for us. They joined ATI because it was (purportedly) Bible centered, and they felt that belonging to a national organization would help lend some credibility should they ever be legally questioned. Bill Gothard is a pro at subtly twisting Scriptures, and some of his untruths managed to slip through the nets that my parents tried to set up to filter what we learned. The questionable teachings may not have impacted my parents who already knew the Bible and were secure in their relationships with Christ. But to a small child, having “principles” like the authority structure repeated over and over left me open for abuse that I later experienced. I soaked up the teachings thoroughly, as children do. In the Basic Seminar, grace is redefined to focus on man’s work instead of God’s. Bill Gothard’s definition of grace drove the focus of all his publications. With works-based grace as the backbone of your teachings, directly contradicting the backbone of Jesus’ entire message, is there anything left worth following?
When I first left ATI after graduation, I was disillusioned by my time spent at the Moscow Training Center, but still believed that many of the core concepts were valid with just a horrible execution. When my oldest son was born, my husband and I talked about our desires for his education. My husband is also a former ATI student. At the time we were both absolutely certain that we would never be involved in the program or send our children to seminars or Children’s Institutes, but that we might use some of the materials, much like my parents had with me. However, the more I am growing in my faith and the longer I have to look at the effects of Gothard’s teachings, the more I’m convinced that there is nothing of value to be used. The lies are so inextricably mixed in with the few truths, why should I even bother? America is significantly more homeschool-friendly than it was in the early 1980’s, with many more resources available to parents. There are so many theologically sound, Bible-based teachings out there, why would we want one that offers so little value to grace-based Christians and that is riddled with scriptural errors?
Was I as deeply scarred as many involved were? No. And I thank God for this, because even coming from “normal,” I was disillusioned enough that I nearly walked away from Him. I can’t imagine what so many have had to go through. I ask you this: how deep must the inflicted damage be before it it is time to pull back? I think any damage done spiritually — anything that hinders a person’s walk with Christ — is too much. It is without truly understanding that one would point a finger and say, “But it wasn’t that bad. Why don’t you just get over it?” The depth of our scars is not the measure for value. The point is that we never should have had to experience such damaging teachings at all. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20)
Trading a gospel of grace for a religion of legalism is placing darkness where there should be light. All of us who were involved in ATI were hurt by lies and deception, no matter how normal some of us looked.
Jennifer was raised in a "normal" family and enjoyed being homeschooled. She spent her entire schooling years in ATI and spent time at several Training Centers after graduation. She is grateful for the grounding in Scriptural truths that she learned from her parents and from the church in which she was raised. Without them her walk would look very different today. As she continues to grow in her faith, she is consistently amazed at the subtleties of wrong theology that she picked up from ATI. Today she is learning more about her Savior and His amazing grace that pulls her closer to Him. She is happily married and loves the wonder of raising children.
July 31, 2024
Jennifer,
I could have been your parent! A resounding "yes" to your premise! Just walk away, people!
Thankfully, we had removed ourselves from The Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts...we were attenders at seminars from 1978 through 1985. I remember wanting to investigate Wisdom Booklets. But, after attending an Advanced Seminar, alarms bells and cautions removed us from further involvement. The affects of those red notebooks and Character Sketches, and Basic Needs of this and that were long term. Add to that my own tendency to "rules" and it was a combination for disaster.
So, thankful for God's true and amazing grace! "My flesh and my heart may fail, But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." Ps 73:26. I am being renewed day by day!
Have only been following RG since March and I am thankful for these articles. Grateful for your contribution, Jennifer.
I understand the journey you went through in seminary. It was in seminary, training to become a therapist, that I also learned hermeneutics and to look at Scripture very differently. I used to admire the way Gothard could find things in the Bible no one else could - without realizing that was a huge red flag!
I honestly think that for a majority of people that attended his seminars in the 1970's, this was their use or approach which was to take the so called good and ignore the stuff that seemed off. I think pastors that encouraged their people to attend ignored concerns about aspects of his teaching because the over view was that what Gothard was teaching was good or helpful to others. Sadly the voices of concern were ignored in a stampede to attend his seminars because they were deemed good. I think the authors parents were the rare ones that got involved with the home schooling program in that they continued to live normal lives and didn't apply it to the letter of the law (Gothard's law). Likewise in the 1970's the sheparding/ discipleship movement was springing up and this likewise had a big emphasis on chain of authority and submission to it. I went to one of those churches and they used and encourage Gothard. I knew people that following Gothard on not buying a new car unless they had the cash for the full price, were against business partnerships, following his dietary ideas etc and so on. While a majority of the articles on RG concern the family and home schooling program, there are many other things in Gothardism that are unhealthy, unrealistic and unbiblical. I think RG could use an analysis of the connection between Bill Gothard and Watchman Nee whose ideas of authority and body/soul/spirit Gothard used.
Ron Henzel addressed the link to Watchman Nee in this (highly sarcastic) "A Beginner's Guild to Bill Gothard": http://ronhenzel.tripod.com/GothardZone/08-BG2BG/14-NeeAuthority.html
Thanks for the link. The entire guide is a quick introduction to the Gothard teachings, cult tendencies and unscriptural theology
thanks again for the link. It was the information I was looking for. Even at age 17, I could see the link between Gothard and the books I was reading by Watchman Nee. I think what ron henzel put together was very effective and even funny to boot.
Don't I remember BG himself saying things like, if a musician was a bad guy you shouldn't listen to his music even if it's lovely, in case you get some case of the heeby-geebies that this composer had 300 years ago? So then, it stands to reason, by his own theories, that we should leave all his teaching far behind, right?
Yes one would think that true. you might be tempted to be a homosexual if you listen to tchaikovsky or George Handel (Handel was rumored to swing that way). perhaps Gothard taste for young girls comes from listening to too much beethoven Mozart and possibly Chopin.
"There are so many theologically sound, Bible-based teachings out there, why would we want one that offers so little value to grace-based Christians and that is riddled with scriptural errors?"
Because human beings, regardless of the purity of their intentions, want and need a 'safe place' where everything will turn out exactly the way they want it with no surprises, and ATI/IBLP offered exactly that. Promises that if you followed the 'law' you would be guaranteed xyz results, and those results were and are very pretty, safe, honorable sounding results. Who doesn't want to be guaranteed good, respectable children who won't ever leave the faith?
I've been in sales pitches before, for physical products like health drinks, cosmetics etc.. and got so excited at the promises of, 'you'll make this much money if you sign up this many people, and this product is great, who wouldn't want it?' that if my husband hadn't been there to be a voice of reason, I might've signed up right then and there, only to realize that few people ever actually made it to that place that got me excited.
We are sheep. We are easily deceived. We want guarantees in this consumer world, and we don't listen to what God's word actually says. There ARE promises in Scripture, but they aren't the promises that Bill Gothard peddled. His slick brand of health, wealth, and prosperity was wrapped up in holy expressions like 'suffering for God', which is a noble idea, and, 'God will bless you if you tithe, you won't be blessed if you don't, etc..' so now you're obeying God to 'trick' Him into blessing you with whatever you want.. nonsense. Nonsense. You're making God into a cheap Santa Claus.
This was definitely where my family was as well. For all of the distance my parents tried to create between us and the hardcore elite of IBLP, the Wisdom Booklets collectively comprised one of the defining marks of my childhood. My parents had older friends in IBLP who were a bit more "in the know" than they were and often relayed some of the horror stories from Training Centers and the like, albeit most likely filtered versions passed through the grapevine, so they didn't really have much desire for IBLP to become my life once I became an adult. They just thought they were doing the right thing by using a homeschooling curriculum that "had Scripture at its core."
The problem, as Jennifer mentioned, is that the extra-biblical tenets of IBLP still find a way to seep inside a young person's mind, regardless of how much filtering parents attempt. It's much different to attend IBLP seminars as an adult with considerable life experience and a discerning mind than it is for a young person to soak up all of these teachings like a sponge with no other frame of reference. And it's the little things that are sometimes the most damaging: the false dichotomy of the true/false quizzes, the eisegetical mangling of Scripture to support an agenda, and the subtle elitism that can be developed after separating oneself from other believers.
Despite just living an hour away from San Francisco, we knew of only one other ATI family in the area, and they were fairly lenient as well. (Their boys played with Legos and watched Star Wars, so I felt a lot better about interacting with those "worldly" things!) We never met up for IBLP-sanctioned area-specific gatherings other than the yearly conferences, and ironically enough, my mother was against the idea of joining homeschool support groups whose idea of interaction degenerated into a game of comparison to see whose kids were performing better. So for the most part, we were "normal." We watched a bit of TV and movies, we listened to some rock oldies, and we interacted with people who (gasp!) didn't hold to the same standards. Sadly, the spiritual narcissism that is all too easily developed through the study of ATI materials still reared its ugly head in my own life, and it's taken a long time to undo it.
The funny thing, though: I found that a lot of the families who attended the yearly conference in Sacramento seemed to be just like us. They weren't all "hardcore," they weren't buying all of what was taught in IBLP, and they were just trying to do what they thought was best for their kids. The young people in particular were an interesting bunch to watch - not all of them were so eager to accept the Gothard Kool-Aid. I remember working with my family at one of the merchandise tables and trying to get an older kid to listen to "Character-Building Classics" or one of those cassette tapes we were trying to sell on the Walkman he was carrying, only to be met with a "Nah, I like rock music" that I frowned upon. How I wish I had seen him as a fellow human being back then instead of looking down on him!
Even in the programs for kids that I attended, there was already an air of dissent, a longing to get out of the IBLP-created box into which everyone was placed. I'll never forget a female teenage leader at one Children's Institute who was humorously pressured by the little girls in our group to give a tiny little six-year-old boy a peck on the cheek. She was immediately replaced the next day. And at one of the ALERT Cadet camp programs I attended, we played a British Bulldogs-style game with every single camper and leader involved in the tackling. Sadly, the plug on that was pulled on orders from "higher up," which saddened a lot of the boys, many of whom weren't eager to fit into the IBLP mold.
Legos were banned? Whatever for? I had never heard of IBLP or ATI until a few months ago. Every visit to RG, I learn something new!
I don't know if they were or not, but I always had this paranoia as a kid that just about everything I interacted with outside of IBLP was "forbidden" for some reason or another. Throughout my childhood, I grew into a bad habit of being afraid that whatever I was enjoying was somehow unscriptural.
So every pleasure was a guilty pleasure. What a terrible burden for a child to carry.
I was raised in ATI, then parented with a strong ATI mindset for 10 years or so. I was instantly suspicious of anything that was popular, because if it was popular, it *must* be because of some subliminal (or obvious) demonic influence! American Girl, Thomas the Tank Engine, Winnie the Pooh... or anything Disney, Dora the Explorer, Barney, My Little Pony, Strawberry Shortcake, Hello Kitty, Beanie Babies, etc. Of course Cabbage Patch Kids & Care Bears were instant demon-callers, although I secretly missed my CPK & CB that had been burned by my dad.
While Legos were never banned or even suspicious in my family, I can definitely understand the idea that anything popular and/or fun would be suspected of being bad!
It's SO nice now to be free some such "voodoo" suspicions! Now my kids can enjoy all of those things (except Dora the Explorer & Barney, both of which I hate with a passion because they're annoying! LOL) and more.
I don't know that they were banned, but so many toys were considered 'secular', particularly if they were popular/trendy toys, very likely many parents said no to TONS of toys for fear of demonic possession.
My own parents prayed over, anointed with oil some toys (I think they were small teddy bears?) that a woman from church gave us because they thought the toys might have been demon possessed because they came from this woman's home.. I don't remember why they thought this particular woman was potentially so evil, but they finally just threw away the toys, rather than risk whatever danger they thought inanimate objects might bring on the family.
Demonic possession of toys sounds like something from a horror movie. If anyone is willing, could you tell me how this belief was/is justfied? As I mentioned above, IBLP/ATI was unknown to me until very recently. I have learned a lot from RG and hope to share some of this with the kids I work with in Sunday school so they will not be taken in by cults.
P.S. I couldn't stand Barney, either. Luckily, my boys, now in their late 20's-early 30's, strongly disliked him.
Diane S, I don't know how BG justifies demonic possessions, but there are others that have extensive writings on the subject. I was given the book "Shadow Boxing" by Dr. Henry Malone recently and told how it made such a huge difference in the givers life.
After further investigation I felt sick that this sort of twisting of Scripture was once again impacting others quietly through independent Bible studies going on in my circle of friends.
There is a three falacy rebuttal to the teachings of Dr Henry Malone in this link.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/threefallacies.html. Personally I will not be running out to buy the latest cleansing kits.
Like I said I have no idea why BG chose to go in this direction in his teachings, but in some circles it us a big money maker.
Thank you. I will check this out.
Diana S., here's a short, older article on RG: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/03/safety-or-superstition/ The comments help paint the picture. There are probably other stories about this on the website.
Hey, I think I might be the mom of the Lego/StarWars family, so maybe I know you(?) I think your letter is extraordinary and concise, especially your second paragraph. Ironically, you must have gotten a great education, because your critical thinking skills are intact, and I am completely sincere in this.
OUCH! is such an understatement, but your words do minister grace. Thank you for your thoughts.
Hi Veronique! I don't believe we knew each other, but it's nice to meet you on here - and to hear that we weren't alone!
My kids Being Bad -- Watching "Hogan's Heroes" without asking, and they thought the "F" word was fart. Not my fault. I didn't actually have a rule against either. But I'm glad they had something good to be bad about.
But one time, just because it was in a WB, I tried to teach them not to use by-words like "Jeez"; this only served to make them judgmental of neighborhood kids. From this I learned that what I thought I said and what they heard were sometimes very different, and that there were sometimes unexpected consequences/unintentional results from my teaching.
Most of the time we put up with the little rules, like shaving before going to an ATI event and dressing in blue, because we believed in the bigger picture and thought they were just quirks, but eventually we decided to leave, without a "good reason", because of three little words, "Do not let..." [anyone steal your freedom by making up rules] which was, ironically enough, a rhema to me.
...If I could do it all over again,
I would probably find another way of doing it wrong...
Thank God for grace.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. And since Paul wrote that to the Galatians, a church deceived by legalism, that verse applies directly to Gothard's materials. While it is true that NOTHING and NO ONE is perfect, that is not the issue here. The issue is whether a ministry whose core is, "another gospel," ought to be supported by buying it's materials, and by using any part of it at all. Have we so little knowledge of scripture, or so little faith that God can be our teacher, that we need, "the big red book?" That we need a, "men's manual," and, "character sketches," or, "a rebuilder's guide?" Can we find Truth in Christ -- regarding our family, friends, marriage, etc., without those materials? Are there no other home schooling materials out there? I would submit that we cannot find Truth through those things -- they are saturated with a BAD spirit -- we are going to be adversely affected by them -- or others may. IMO, it is quite possible to have nothing whatsoever to do with Gothard, IBLP, ATI -- that entire organization -- and you will be better off. What you associate with and support gives out an impression; a witness. Why would anyone want to be in any way associated with the horrible institution? It is not necessary, and frankly, it is hard to believe that it would be God's will for anyone.
If Christian people were edified in Jesus Christ in the way the Bible states ought to happen through real NT ministry, we would not be deceived by things such as Gothardism, nor would we run to it because we think it has answers. All discernment is the by product of knowing Jesus Christ. Thus, if we don't know Him, we will have little discernment of these matters.
It is concerning that with all the visibility of the BG issue and board response (or lack thereof), that other Christian organizations and leaders have NOT even addressed it. Simply reporting the issue and not addressing it is what BG and the board hope for. Where are the voices of the southern baptist assoc, gospel coalition, Gary Smalley ( who is still selling on the IBPL store), Christian & missionary alliance, etc. Have these organizations been so clouded with BG "principles" that they are reluctant to take a stand even in the light of so much documentation and the watered down response of the IBLP board?
You have some very legitimate questions that seriously need to be answered. Thank you for bringing them up!
THANK YOU, everyone, for sharing your stories and for what God is doing in your life and continues to do! I'm so sorry for the things you all have experienced!
THANK YOU, RG, for making these stories available to us : )
As parents, we thought we were doing the 'right' thing but now we see the hardship we have brought down to our children due to legalism and being critical ... a flaw I already had in myself and didn't need any more of it.
We, also, had all the BG curriculum dressing our shelf for many years IBLP, ATIA, Character sketches, etc. We didn't use it as much as we 'should' have and now I am grateful that we didn't! My husband was thinking that he could sort through the materials but realistically shouldn't the Bible, God's Word, be enough. Plus, we REALLY don't have the time to sort through the material to figure out what's of the Lord and what isn't. So we made the decision to TOSS IT ALL OUT!!!
Thanks again for sharing your stories to help us learn from your message and your life experience. For those that have been hurt... I pray for you to find comfort, truth, healing and freedom in God's word and may the shackles of lies be broken ....may GOD's WORD permeate your life!
"We, also, had all the BG curriculum dressing our shelf for many years IBLP, ATIA, Character sketches, etc. We didn't use it as much as we 'should' have and now I am grateful that we didn't! My husband was thinking that he could sort through the materials but realistically shouldn't the Bible, God's Word, be enough. Plus, we REALLY don't have the time to sort through the material to figure out what's of the Lord and what isn't. So we made the decision to TOSS IT ALL OUT!!! "
Wow! Just Wow! My wife and I spent a few years 'doing' IBLP / ATI, but thankfully left before our kids got old enough for the wisdom books. Even then, I've spent the past several months re-examining what I learned there and relearning what it means to be free in God's grace.
Just last night we pulled all of the IBLP / ATI material from our book shelves and tossed it in the recycle bin. Ironically, I feel more cleansed now than when I 'cleansed' my house of 'evil influences' as dictated by IBLP / ATI.
Thanks RG for helping me get beyond the corrupt influence of IBLP / ATI seeing the entire organization for what it is. I've never been able to articulate the red flags I've had over the years, but reading through this site for the past several days has solidified into words what I've always felt.
this post reminds me of an excuse many professing Christians use to justify certain teachers or Ministries.
Remember many groups say false things but have some good in them. Buddhism, Hinduism, mormonism and so on.
I believe the Bible says to beware of those that come in Christ's name teaching false doctrine.
David, I would like to think that my husband and I were thinking, growing Christians, who pursued knowing God and His Word, seeking
Him in our lives. We always came away from the seminars and conferences, dissecting what we heard and looking to what we knew the Word said and seeing the conflicts. But we were not wanting to doubt the sincerity of the man BG. We often asked ourselves, how does one keep these standards without the Holy Spirit, (in relation to Character First). That is when the red flags really started flying. We noticed the stress of Knoxville every year, rather than a blessing. It seemed to us as family boot camp, and we just couldn't cut it by the 3rd night. We got stressed and insecure and knew we were NOT measuring up....try harder.....caught in the legalistic tornado of ATI families, we left in reality that we just were NOT doing it "right". We got caught up in works...not a relationship with our loving Father and certainly not walking in grace, for ourselves or others. So sad to see this now.
Great work Jennifer. It is sad that it takes a seminary degree to find the subtle errors in teaching that is so "biblically" based. After my wife and I (she worked for Bill at headquarters for a year) finished the seminar, we used the red workbook on occasion to shed light on various passages we were studying. We were shocked to discover how many references were taken out of context, and not just a little bit, but flagrantly. It is a classic case of proof texting. Thanks for your fine article and (may I say carefully) insight.
God Bless you,
mark andrew ritchie
"...shocked to discover how many references were taken out of context...
I find this in many ministries. As our society has become so self centered so has many ministries. Like I once heard an evangelist say, "Keep your guard up constantly, but raise it extra high around religious folks!"
This article is the first one that I really really identify with on here. I've been reading Recovering Grace for a while and this one for some reason hits home the most. Thank you for sharing and I started off as one of the 'normal' ones. I am on the journey of finding out the definitions of grace, and that respect doesn't equal obedience, and many other things that have been tainted and twisted over the course of the year of involvement. This is just another piece of the puzzle that I needed to start cleaning out the mess that is in my mind.
IBLP and Advanced were very helpful for my wife and I, but ATI and everything else scared us to death. I began to see the extreme legalism even in the basic programs and had to sift through the material with a fine tooth comb to find truth (and this was all done after a seminary degree (M Div.)). it is this ATI that is just too rigid and yes, lacks grace like I have never seen. if Gothard would have simply concentrated on the basic and advanced seminars, and the got his personal life under control with a commitment to NOT be alone with another young woman maybe things would have turned out differently. His teaching is borderline legalism, but his personal life was a disaster. he had too much power available to him and that power corrupted him, and in the process so many others were hurt.
Well said.
ATI is the logical conclusion of the Galatian heresy that is presented in the basic and advanced seminars. A concentration on basic and advanced seminars, with his personal life under control, would have perhaps fooled and caught many more people in the destructive theology that is Bill Gothard's. A fine tooth comb really doesn't help. The point is that the foundation of a legal rather than grace based perspective is destructive, for the law kills but the Spirit gives life. There is nothing that is really redeemable in the basic and advanced seminars. That is the point of the article, even taking out all the junk and being "normal" there was destruction because the very foundation is faulty. One should feel compassion and grace for Mr. Gothard as/if he truly repents. In one sense however his own inability to live by the law has opened up the whole disaster to the light. A note: the basic and advanced seminars I went to in the early 70's were not helpful. They were heretical. There was nothing "borderline" about it.
Greg, I am not sure how to reply to you, but here it goes: The basic and advanced seminars were very helpful for my wife and I in our early marriage and when we began having children. In fact, I am not sure if our marriage would have survived and thrived, and I am positive that we would not have been blessed with 8 children (instead of 2). Even today, in my pastoral counseling I still use some of the Advanced seminar ideas about marriage--with great success! For me it was not the basic and advanced seminars that was so disturbing, but the ATI and all that went with it. Here, in these advanced ATI programs I really see the ugliness of legalism come out. My wife and I were shocked to see just how legalistic it all was--taking the basic and advanced seminars way too far in actually controlling attitudes and behavior in an external fashion. Like any program, it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. Only the scripture in inspired and infallible. And it is here where BG really gets off track. We saw the alarms and steered away from it, but what a tragedy for others who did not see them. it is for this reason that I cannot recommend BG, plus, his terrible behavior with young women totally disqualifies him from all ministry.
Guy,
I mostly agree with Greg here. I have the basic and advanced seminar textbooks and they are page after page of false teaching, twisted scripture and extra biblical revelation. The very core foundations of the seminars are a false, works based definition of grace, a false definition of faith and an unbiblical chain of authority or umbrella of protection teaching.
Glenn Chatfield of Watchman's Bagpipes did a page by page review of the basic textbook and found it loaded with poor scriptural interpretation and twisting, superstition, faulty logic,extra biblical revelation and legalism. I would encourage you to check it out. I find him pretty spot on, with respect to their analysis. He is certainly not the only one who has pointed out the many false teachings of Gothard and the seminars, but his is the only page by page analysis that I have seen.
The Watchman's Bagpipes, analysis of IBLP Basic Seminar Textbook:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/analyzing-bill-gothards-iblp-basic.html
Watchman's Bagpipes analysis of the Advanced Seminar Textbook:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/bill-gothards-ati-textbook-examined.html
"Verses often seem to be thrown out like so much confetti with little thought given to context."
This does not mean that every single thing taught is false and it does not mean that you have not found areas in which the seminars blessed you and your wife. The fact that you have 8 children is a blessing. I don't think you can give them credit for that- God can find a way to bless people even in a seminar based on false teachings. Children are a blessing, but look how Gothard pressures people to have large families. He teaches quiverfull and also, as has been documented numerous times, he shames families that do not have large numbers of children. Large families are a blessing. Not everyone is called by God to have a large family and we are certainly not commanded to. Small families are a blessing too.
I think if you cut out all of the false teachings, you just wouldn't have much left. Certainly the core of the seminars would be gone.
Yes, while there's A LOT in the wisdom booklets that needs to be thrown out, you can't blame that for Jennifer not having a good Scriptural foundation. With all due respect, that is the fault of the parents. "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, *examining* the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." Acts 17:11
Thank you for posting this! My parents too threw out what they did not agree with and plainly told us when they did not agree with the curriculum. What they didn't realize is that by agreeing with some of the ATI materiel they solidified in their children's minds that everything from IBLP was truth. It was so subtle, but praise God it's over!
"...My parents too threw out what they did not agree with and plainly told us when they did not agree with the curriculum. What they didn't realize is that by agreeing with some of the ATI materiel they solidified in their children's minds that everything from IBLP was truth...."
To paraphrase what you say: "My parents carried me to the grocery store to buy food. They clearly pointed out food that was not good for me but by carrying me to the grocery store they solidified in my mind that everything from the store was good!"
JoJo, Not quite sure what you were trying to say... would you elaborate? Thank you!
Kevin, thanks for the links. Good stuff. We need more comprehensive review of the teachings, but RG doesn't seem to be the proper place for such a volume of material.
After we had a handicapped child, my wife was done having kids. BG said to let the heathen sterilize themselves and Christians be fruitful. I am thankful for the five more we have.
Reading Psalms, Proverbs and more each morning with the kids was a discipline that has born much fruit in our family.
Understanding design, and accepting ourselves as we are, was a valuable teaching to us. Seeing how rejecting and hating ourselves left the next natural step as hating the One who made us, was very good.
I could go on and on.
Am I endorsing BG, ATI, and all of that? No way! What I have read sickens me.
I just find articles and comments which say there was nothing redeeming from the years spent to be equally out of balance as the legalistic teachings themselves.
Just my $0.02.
Tom,
I'm glad you and your family benefitted from IBLP. Looking back on my own life, I can think of a few things in the program that God used, some of which you listed. But I can't give IBLP the credit for that. God is the one who ultimately used what was flawed to bring glory to Him. This is the reason why many on RG have adopted the stance against the principle of "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." There's no such thing as a ministry that's indispensable, and much of the actual truth that IBLP espouses can be found elsewhere among other, more exegetically sound Christian teachers.
But for some people, no redeeming value from the years spent in the program was precisely the case - especially for the young people who had no other frame of reference growing up and are now struggling to make sense of the world. Do you think it's in any way edifying to elevate your own experience above their pain? I'm assuming that's not your intent, but for someone in anguish who's coming to this site searching for validation, that's how it can come across ("Sure, you may have been hurt, but look at how I benefited!").
Hi Tom, I said to my own mom the other day, 'all false prophets and wolves will have SOME truth in the things that they preach, otherwise they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, no-one would believe anything they had to say.'
Even the devil used God's word when he was tempting Jesus.
I am very glad for you that you were able to glean some wonderful things from your time in this program. Many of us had to drop all of it completely just so we could see straight and be able to figure out which end of us was up, so to speak. For me, it's not worth holding onto anything taught in IBLP/ATI, because the few scraps of truth that are in those programs are also in the Bible I have, so why bother with a man made program?
Obviously this is not an issue for you, and again, I am very happy for you that you don't have to deal with this the same way we do.
Blessings to you and yours.
Tom,
My wife and I were open to children before we attended any IBLP programs and were encouraged in our lifestyle by our involvement in ATI with families of similar values. But when I read commentary throughout the internet, I find hundreds if not thousands of Christians rejecting marital fruitfulness due to the excesses, abuses and confusion created by IBLP and similar "quiver full" communities. That breaks my heart. And I think it insult's God's fruitful heart.
It is my prayer that we might raise up another generation that understands God's fruitful love and the concept of mutual giving in marriage without the bondage of authority/submission, nurtured insensitivity and downright misogyny that Gothard and his ilk produce. I strongly promote John Paul II's Theology of the Body and the teaching of Christopher West to present fruitfulness in a Christ-centered way. Can you imagine a marriage where both are willing to forego sex if one is fearful of pregnancy? That, to me, reflects self-sacrifice, and it is diametrically opposed to the contraceptive culture of sex, free of responsibility, that is depopulating and dehumanizing all regions formerly comprising Christendom. But Gothard taught procreation as dutiful.
I may have 19 children, but without love I am nothing and gain nothing. Legalism negates love. It's conception of righteousness is itself unfruitful.
"Let the heathen sterilize themselves?" Is that really the attitude that a Christian reflecting God's love towards the world should have? It's like BG is saying "it would be awesome if 'bad' people never reproduced so that us good people can take over the whole Earth!"
Amen Tom! Thank you!