I have heard many people talk about how they still want to be involved in ATI (the Advanced Training Institute), but be “normal” families and just “filter out the bad stuff.” I’ve seen some of those responses in the Recovering Grace comments. If that’s your premise, then this post is for you, because that’s my story. My family were the normal ones.
If you are unaware or not convinced of the many scriptural fallacies taught in ATI, please read some of the other excellent posts here on Recovering Grace. The purpose of sharing my story is to warn the best intentioned of you that you will not escape serious negative effects resulting from involvement with ATI.
If it is actually possible to be a normal family and still be in ATI, we were that family. When I say “normal,” I mean that we were truly “in the world but not of the world,” as opposed to the ATI model of completely removing all outside influences from family life. Clothing was not emphasized as a measure of holiness. I wore skirts on Sundays and jeans the rest of the week. We were not banned from higher education. My parents both had college educations and the three of us children were expected to go to college. (In fact, one of my parents’ biggest oppositions when I got married was that neither my husband nor I had completed our degrees. This emphasis on higher education was certainly not classic ATI teachings.)
Sports were not banned as a waste of time or as false idols. My eldest brother and I were on the swim team — wearing Speedos, no less! In fact, we all played organized sports. My dad took it as a source of pride when the boys picked his baby girl to play on their teams, because she was actually pretty good. We were not banned from friendships with the opposite sex. My skiing buddy from age 10-15 was a boy, and we spent most of the days skiing alone, unsupervised.
Music was not restricted according to the ATI guidelines. We listened to music with a mild rock beat. Even hot topics in the general Christian community, like movies and questionable games, were not turned into a huge issue in our home. We went to movie theaters and we played cards. We were not banned from potential negative influences at church. My siblings and I were involved with the youth group and other ministries in our church, and active with church events. I know that we were an anomaly in the ATI environment at the time. Because we were practically the only ATI family in our area, we didn’t face the type of peer pressure to conform to ATI standards that many families experienced. The pressure in ATI for girls to be preparing for only one adult role did not affect us. My parents were adamant that a woman is called to be more than a doormat (cook, housekeeper and baby maker). I remember once my mom telling me that she strongly disagreed with the teaching that if a wife disagreed with her husband, she could do nothing but sit in silence and pray.
A career outside of marriage was allowed — even encouraged. Both of my parents fully supported me in my searching for a career after high school. My parents weren’t typical ATI parents any more than we were typical ATI kids. In fact, my mom had a teaching career herself when she convinced my dad that we should homeschool. Her reasonings were more out of educational than religious convictions. She left her job believing she could give us a more solid education at home. My parents filtered the ATI teachings through their own belief system, instead of blindly parroting everything that came out of the mouth of Bill Gothard. Other than being homeschooled and in ATI, we were a “normal” conservative Christian family.
Here’s the thing, though: We still did all those stinking Wisdom Books. Every. Single. Day. I completed the entire series two and a half times by the time I graduated. So guess what theology I was learning from before I could even read? Can you imagine how many twisted interpretations and applications of Scripture I’m still trying to straighten out? Being allowed to wear tank tops in front of boys made me appear “normal,” but the way I viewed the world was not normal at all. I was taught the wrong definition of grace through my entire childhood! It wasn’t until I went to seminary that I learned about scriptural exegesis. I had learned to recite the Greek alphabet and pronounce the Greek words, and I was a pro at using a concordance to search through key words and find Greek roots. But how to examine Scripture in context? I had no clue. Context is not used much in ATI, since proper hermeneutics and context prevent topically leapfrogging through the Bible to twist verses to an agenda. I didn’t know the difference between “prescription” and “description” until I was 21.
All my years of learning “scriptural principles” had to be revisited, evaluated, and adjusted. I attended a church not influenced by ATI teachings, and once teased our associate pastor that I needed to wear steel toe boots to Sunday school, because every time he taught he was undoing twelve-plus years of learning in about an hour. I was glad to learn the truth, but it’s frustrating and often sickening to compare it to what we had learned! I feel resentment over the numerous hours that I once spent studying the Bible during Wisdom searches only to find that those studies were in vain. The days I thought were spent learning more about my precious Savior turned out to be a man’s legalistic teachings. I wonder if Paul felt this way when he looked back on his years studying as a Pharisee. I wonder if he felt that he had wasted the time, and if he later struggled to wrap his mind around the truth.
These thoughts go through my head every time I see a commenter on Recovering Grace say they’re going to do ATI and just “throw out the bad stuff.” You do that and there’s not enough good stuff left to be worth it! We were those people. My parents threw out as much as you could and still be involved — and I still am left reeling some days. I can’t feel anger toward them, because they honestly were trying to do their best for us. My parents had started homeschooling at a time when it was definitely not in vogue. Some parents were arrested and their children taken by the state for the audacity to think they could teach their own children better than the established methods of education. Most school supply and textbook companies refused point blank to deal with homeschoolers. But into that uncertain future my parents marched, knowing it was what was best for us. They joined ATI because it was (purportedly) Bible centered, and they felt that belonging to a national organization would help lend some credibility should they ever be legally questioned. Bill Gothard is a pro at subtly twisting Scriptures, and some of his untruths managed to slip through the nets that my parents tried to set up to filter what we learned. The questionable teachings may not have impacted my parents who already knew the Bible and were secure in their relationships with Christ. But to a small child, having “principles” like the authority structure repeated over and over left me open for abuse that I later experienced. I soaked up the teachings thoroughly, as children do. In the Basic Seminar, grace is redefined to focus on man’s work instead of God’s. Bill Gothard’s definition of grace drove the focus of all his publications. With works-based grace as the backbone of your teachings, directly contradicting the backbone of Jesus’ entire message, is there anything left worth following?
When I first left ATI after graduation, I was disillusioned by my time spent at the Moscow Training Center, but still believed that many of the core concepts were valid with just a horrible execution. When my oldest son was born, my husband and I talked about our desires for his education. My husband is also a former ATI student. At the time we were both absolutely certain that we would never be involved in the program or send our children to seminars or Children’s Institutes, but that we might use some of the materials, much like my parents had with me. However, the more I am growing in my faith and the longer I have to look at the effects of Gothard’s teachings, the more I’m convinced that there is nothing of value to be used. The lies are so inextricably mixed in with the few truths, why should I even bother? America is significantly more homeschool-friendly than it was in the early 1980’s, with many more resources available to parents. There are so many theologically sound, Bible-based teachings out there, why would we want one that offers so little value to grace-based Christians and that is riddled with scriptural errors?
Was I as deeply scarred as many involved were? No. And I thank God for this, because even coming from “normal,” I was disillusioned enough that I nearly walked away from Him. I can’t imagine what so many have had to go through. I ask you this: how deep must the inflicted damage be before it it is time to pull back? I think any damage done spiritually — anything that hinders a person’s walk with Christ — is too much. It is without truly understanding that one would point a finger and say, “But it wasn’t that bad. Why don’t you just get over it?” The depth of our scars is not the measure for value. The point is that we never should have had to experience such damaging teachings at all. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20)
Trading a gospel of grace for a religion of legalism is placing darkness where there should be light. All of us who were involved in ATI were hurt by lies and deception, no matter how normal some of us looked.
Jennifer was raised in a "normal" family and enjoyed being homeschooled. She spent her entire schooling years in ATI and spent time at several Training Centers after graduation. She is grateful for the grounding in Scriptural truths that she learned from her parents and from the church in which she was raised. Without them her walk would look very different today. As she continues to grow in her faith, she is consistently amazed at the subtleties of wrong theology that she picked up from ATI. Today she is learning more about her Savior and His amazing grace that pulls her closer to Him. She is happily married and loves the wonder of raising children.
Amen.
Very well put. I was actually never in ATI, but was homeschooled and only went to the basic and advanced seminars. I studied his writing on my own (after just going to the seminars) and that was enough to mess up my understanding on some sections of the Bible! My husband and I just encountered one section recently and he was pretty surprised at what I'd learned it meant and I was really surprised at what that part of scripture was really talking about!
What you said about teachings slipping through your parents' filter stuck with me. Sometimes I feel my parents forgot some of the things they told me, but many times I realize that I picked up teachings that even my older siblings seemed to have missed. I was young, impressionable and left to draw my own twisted conclusions. Now that I'm trying to untangle truth and lies, my own family often doesn't understand where I came up with some of the stuff I believed. I would wholeheartedly encourage parents not to try and filter ATI - run. Run as far and fast as you can can find better material for your children. You want to do what is best for them. Why even waste your time on something you feel you need to filter? Furthermore, if you send your children to any ATI functions or camps, they are open to hear to anything the teachers tell them. Especially if you are someone who resists public school because you can't control what they are taught, why repeat it in something you know has parts you don't agree with? Just some thoughts.
Amen and amen! I grew up in ATI, and we too were more "normal" than many. It still had adverse effects. I've heard some people say "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," but I really think it's more like baking nastiness into brownies and then trying to get the nasty out and eat the chocolate. You really can't, y'all. :)
This comment ^
This. A thousand times.
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" - are we sure there's even a BABY in there?! I'm getting very tired of hearing that statement.
Wish I could remember the source but I don't... "What's good (with ATI/IBLP) isn't original, & what's original isn't good."
There are SO many other resources out there for homeschoolers these days, and many of them are usable as-is, without having to filter out twisted doctrines. I speak from experience as I'm homeschooling my kids - *not* with ATI materials!! - and the choices are overwhelming.
I think with this amount of bath water, the baby has probably drowned. Maybe that's what we're trying to do on this site, bury it with respect and move on instead of insisting it's still alive and healthy.
Please don't put the baby in the dirty bath water and for goodness' sake, don't drink it. :-)
No, you're right, I'm pretty sure there's no baby in there. That's why I prefer the poo--in-the-brownies analogy. :) I'm homeschooling my kids too, and yes, I totally agree- there are a plethora of great choices out there. Ati is also pretty abysmal academically, so people end up doing all the other basic subjects and then the wb's which makes for a rather long day. That, and the amount of basic misinformation, not even including theology, that you'd need to counter is impressive.
good article. At this point in my life it is hard for me to even consider any leadership that tells me God wants me to live life a certain way. ATI taught me to fear and analyze every kind of sin in my life instead of rejoicing and focusing on the beautiful things God is doing inside of me. I remember every time my parents mentioned God I would freeze up and just think of every kind of bad thought that was going on in my life. Instead of seeing the beauty of Christ Love and forgiveness. I think that religion can do so much damage. It is so sad that ATI's focus is so much on the works then focusing on how beautiful the Creator is. If anyone pursue's faith in Christ just be very careful of the voices around you. Remember God desires a relationship with you. Our relationship with the Creator has nothing to do with anyone else ideas of what God desires for you.
"America is significantly more homeschool-friendly than it was in the early 1980′s, with many more resources available to parents."
The thought that struck me with this comment is that many, if not most ATI parents, latched on to ATI out of a fear based reaction. They didn't want to lose their children to the public school system. I would heartily agree and identify with that fear, even though I'm not a parent yet. I understand it. However I must point out that this is fear is a wrong one, because it is not the fear of God. It is the fear of man. Fear of the govt, fear of an institution, fear of police state in some cases, fear of losing your children, fear of failing as a parent. Now all of those fears are definitely realistic, and I think probably everyone who has kids has fear of these things to some degree. But that doesn't make it right. We are to fear God.
My point is, ATI was the 'safe haven' for all these frantic, well meaning people who reacted to both reality, and hype, taking desperate measures, instead of relying on God's providence, mercy, and guidance for their lives. (I am NOT suggesting that these parents should've stood by and done nothing, or let their kids be public schooled, or anything like that. I also am not judging them for their decisions. This is an observation.) I also acknowledge that there were few other alternatives, but does that really excuse poor judgement, and swallowing what one human being declared as truth, without sifting the Word for themselves?
Jennifer: As a current ATI father I was anxiously waiting for the punch line. What it was that you found so damaging. This statement seemed to be the closest I could find: "Trading a gospel of grace for a religion of legalism". Is that basically the crux?
Since we both know those Wisdom Books pretty well, can you – even in a general way – point me to a "religion of legalism" or other serious errors taught in the WB? Something that you and both your parents – and I – missed for multiple decades?
Although you can understand that I have my reservations, this is a serious question. A great opportunity for you to zero in on some pretty basic stuff.
To me, this was the "punch line":
". I had learned to recite the Greek alphabet and pronounce the Greek words, and I was a pro at using a concordance to search through key words and find Greek roots. But how to examine Scripture in context? I had no clue. Context is not used much in ATI, since proper hermeneutics and context prevent topically leapfrogging through the Bible to twist verses to an agenda. I didn’t know the difference between “prescription” and “description” until I was 21."
Scripture without context is a baseball bat that beats its followers bloody. This description is specific enough for me.
I ran into this problem as well - our family had used the Wisdom Booklets for several years. In every single booklet there would be a situation where my mom would read us a passage, stop for a beat and then say "That's not right" or "That doesn't make sense or better yet "How does that verse even apply here??" Us kids would then have lengthy discussions and searching of Scriptures, and often we'd arrive at an understanding at variance with the position in the Booklets, at which point my mom would say "Let's skip this section" and we'd go on to the next section.
We eventually stopped using the booklets, because we found it better to learn directly from the Source.
Whenever I came across the wisdom booklets, not knowing a lot about ATI), I'd first be impressed by the lists (I like lists), but as I kept reading, I'd keep thinking exactly what your mom said, "How does that verse even apply here?" At first, I thought it was just me!
I have several examples of errors and ommissions in the Wisdom Booklet series pertaining to law, American history and biographical accounts of specific individuals, to name a few.
One that comes to mind at the moment is the story of John Wanamaker. The WB biography on Wanamaker sanitizes his life, and omits his involvement in FreeMasonry. He was a 33rd degree mason.
I think there is a box of old booklets in the basement, I'll dig it out and have a look see and post up some examples in the future.
I don't mean to criticize you Alfred but seeing as you are Exclusive Brethren ATI/IBLP would appear either normal or liberal by comparison.
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.
Mat 7:2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 Do not give that which is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and tear you.
I am waiting for Jennifer to reply before engaging on the general comments. But I couldn't resist, since I have been declared unclean. "Exclusives" we are not . . . We are "Open Plymouth Brethren", same as George Mueller . . . W. E. Vine . . . Jim Elliot (his Dad was an Exclusive preacher) . . . Dave Hunt, Ron Henzel, BTW. So . . . you can breath a little easier. :-) And, as you probably know, Exclusives are splintered into dozens of pieces, none of which talk to each other. Nor to us. Harry Ironside, President of Moody Bible Institute, was "Exclusive", the good kind.
I didn't declare you unclean Plymouth Brethren here in a Australia are mostly whacky
Alfred, this testimony could almost be mine. You want to know how the WB's damaged me?
Let's see: they taught me to judge people all.the.time. All those history resources determining what went wrong with someone's life. You know, like William Carey had a difficult marriage because he violated a "principle" and married a widow who's first husband wasn't a minister. (Talk about completely mis-applying Scripture!!!!)
ATI made Scripture about me. The OT was there to find hidden health benefits instead of to see Jesus Christ. In fact, almost everything was a hidden principle that would benefit "me" instead of showing me Jesus and the plan of God in Christ.
Wisdom Search taught to me to go the Bible with an agenda rather than going to the Bible and seeing it for what it says. It pretty much ruined my Bible reading for years. I saw the Bible as a bit of a fortune cookie. (And you can say I misapplied the teaching, but we were specifically told to go to whatever passage was on the calendar for the day and "find" the answer or direction we needed or insight into a particular subject whether or not that subject is in that passage or even in the Bible.)
I was taught to not make decisions but defer the responsibility for my life to my parents. "God places in my life authorities. I trust them to protect and care for me....so effortless and free...."
I was taught that totally minor issues were the biggest ones. We were told that we couldn't trust that still small voices to lead us. We had to listen to trust our authorities. But, we knew how to size someone up really quickly by the "big" commitments of life: did they watch TV? wear jeans? have multiple piercings? have a large family? vaccinate? homeschool? did mom work out of the home? did the young people go to college? did they go to Sunday school or youth group?
We were told that we were the spiritual elite, setting us up for the fall that comes with pride and flattery. We were a pain in the church's neck because we had all the answers and we knew it.
When I ended up on the mission field dealing with problems that were way bigger than me, guess what my instinct was? I didn't think, "Oh, I need to pray about this and let God lead" I actually wanted to get my BS books out and find the answer. If you don't see that as a problem, we have a very different view of what the Christian life is supposed to be.
Agree 100%, this was my experience with ATI as well. Thanks for putting into words so powerfully!
very concise summary. Perhaps you should compile this into an article. I find it fascinating that many who grew up in ATI are later finding out about Jesus (the real Jesus - the one who loves us so much He drank the cup the was due mankind) As more of an "outsider" this is the type of testimony that has allowed me to reevaluate BG and his teachings. Alfred, listen to these folks' heart, they grew up in this, and it is bad theology (if you can label it theology). I didn't and I'm assuming neither did you ....
I'll add one more witness. I was out of ATIA for 17 years before I could see the gospel as actually good news, instead of viewing Scripture as a billy club. Bill's teachings put so much emphasis on everything I ought to be doing that I seldom, if ever, could rejoice and rest in what Christ had already done.
And I agree with the sentiment that from an academic standpoint, the WBs were pretty abysmal.
Bro. Alfred,
The problem with the WBs is not so much what they teach but what they don't teach. They don't teach us about the height and depth of God's love for us even while we were still sinners. They don't teach us about Christ's penal, substitutionary atoning death by which He imputed His righteousness to our account standing before God's holy throne, and imputing to Himself our wretched, rebellious sins and taking the full unmitigated wrath of God that we so richly deserved. They don't teach us about Christ's work justifying us before God and being the eternal base of our relationship with God. They don't teach us about the Holy Spirit's working in us in the life long process of sanctification. They don't teach us about Christ's work on the cross and intercession in Heaven ensuring our salvation. They don't teach us the core Biblical doctrines and truths of Christianity.
In short, the WBs teaches that the Bible and Christianity is about what we do for God, not what God/Christ/Holy Spirit did and does for us. The Bible is turned into a motivational handbook instead of a loving letter from God explaining what He is and does and how to channel the resulting inspiration. I could care less about white bread, music, and other little things Mr. G' believes and teaches. However, his worldview based on Wesleyan perfectionism, Arminianism, humanistic, psychology, and Finneyism (http://monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/Finneyism/) is destructive, is not balanced and is the problem.
I was fortune to grow up in a Baptist church (and later Reformed, Doctrines of Grace Baptist church) where salvation being by God's work and not our own was stressed. Otherwise my struggles with wondering if I was pleasing God enough or if I had just lost my salvation because of an action or attitude would have been much greater than they were. If WBs and IBLP had focused more on the gospel instead of character qualities, The Elephant Man, the Black Plague, etc (all good stuff), I might have not had those struggles, or a least to the suicidal points that did.
Now that I have officially chewed your ear off, allow me to say, Bro. Alfred, that I appreciate your "dissenting" voice and challenges on here. They certainly help keep a balance.
I was in one of the normal families too. My parents tried to filter out the excesses of legalism in ATI. Clothes were never an issue. I could listen to any Christian music I wanted, and I played the drums in our church band. I also tried to be a good ATI kid. The problem was Bill taught me how to "stand alone" and think in analogies – with the result that I didn't always come up with his approved answer. In 1994 I spend four months on the ship in Moscow. While I was there I realised that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't be good enough for Bill and his cronies. My unwillingness/inability to to turn off my brain and jettison some of my core convictions about God and the world meant that I was a bad person, even though my behaviour was very good. I left Russia in May 1994 as a hollow, angry man. It took me two years to recover and forgive.
Thanks for telling your story, Jennifer. And thank you, Recovering Grace, for the very important light you are shining.
Hi Alfred,
My family was more into ATI than Jennifer's family-in many different ways. However, due mainly to my dad's influence, as he was more balanced than many ATI dads, we were more balanced in some ways than other ATI families. So technically, you could say that ours was at least a somewhat normal family.
However, that didn't keep us from experiencing the negative effects of ATI. Due to my ATI upbringing, I very much picked up the mindset that God's blessing on my life depended on what I did or did not do-in the form of externals, such as music, movies, going to movie theaters, etc. That mindset is something that I'm still having to deal with due to ATI teachings.
To those who say "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater," I would respond "God and the Bible are the baby, and ATI/Bill Gothard is the bathwater."
Don thanks for sharing your story, I too picked up the mindset from Gothard/IBLP/ATI that in order to be successful, healthy, and blessed by God I had to keep the principles, commands, guidelines and multi-step checklists outlined for in the various seminars and materials. And that if I didn't, I'd fall into dis-favor with God and be subject to all manner of heinous diseases, calamities, terrors and spiritual dangers.
It is Christ who redeemed us - it is not dependent on us, and likewise it is Christ's mediation before the throne of God that keeps us Children of the Kingdom - this too is not dependent on us.
As to the "DTTBOWTB" - it would be more profitable if those who felt the need to share this catch-phrase would pause for a minute, and write down a few examples of what they feel is the "baby".
If doctrinal discussion is reduced to a single 500 year old cliche it is a waste of time to have that discussion.
My family was a little less "normal" than Jennifers. Our "rules" for music, dress, entertainment etc, were more stringent than hers, but not extreme. Neither was I (not speaking for my siblings) damaged as much as so many I have heard from. However, I concur with what most of the comments said about ruining a right relationship with Jesus Christ. I'd say the perfect analysis is what Laura quoted, "What's good (with ATI/IBLP) isn't original, & what's original isn't good."
Hi, Alfred, on that phrase about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Um, false doctrine isn't comparable to a baby so the analogy while picturesque is not valid.
Paul puts all of his former law-abiding efforts into perspective when he wrote, "I count it all dung that I may win Christ" when speaking of all of his own attainment very much accredited in fact and of the principles of the law and his education therein. He didn't seem to have the concept that following the OT law or being under the old covenant was somehow to be rescued from the sewer. He was happy to count it all loss (cut his losses) to gain Christ. Gothard's life serves to prove one main thing to me--that the law is weak through the weakness of the flesh and that Romans 8:3-5:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Gothard seems to believe decisional regeneration and misses that the Spirit-led walk of the Christian cannot be produced by formula, discipline, or the will of man--based upon a decision alone but rather by listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Esau tried begging and pleading with tears after despising his birthright and found not forgiveness. If we despise Christ by not counting Him as all sufficient isn't this akin to selling our birthright?
I believe that the Scriptures are unclear many times as to formula explicitly because it's not the intent of God to teach such. God didn't learn technique as He went along and refine His message--no! Neither did He provide salvation or sanctification via the OT law. The purpose of the law was never to save nor to sanctify. It was to show us that we are guilty of sin and in need of God's provision of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The mind which cannot be made subject to the law of God must experience the miracle of of God in regeneration before it can be led by the Spirit of God. Without both salvation and sanctification both being the works of God the Holy Spirit, formula is futile. Maybe what people are attempting to express is, "Don't throw the formula out with the greywater." However, if it is the case that they are mixed, I don't want the formula even if you happen to rescue it.
I know your response is likely to be that I took what you are saying and what Bill Gothard says and teaches out of context. While I would refute that, I further ask, "Why are we not more concerned with the context of Holy Scripture than with the context of our own words?"
This is extremely well said about selling our birthright by despising the work of Christ.In another comment about a month ago you were bold enough to say that people will be in peril of their own souls if seriously adhering to Gothardism.This is too horrible to think about!Gothard will produce scizophrenia by pulling on the one hand a harsh guaranteed descipline that uses bible based lingo, but on the other hand bypasses the means to get to any favorable result,Jesus.The spirits we are created with are literally rocked to sleep.Truths such as life,and light,that fit so perfectly in Jesus have a much more vague value.Conflict will come when trying to come back to when we first experienced God.By what means?Your soul is more than just a brain to memorize,categorize,and will.
Samuel you can't reason with a closed mind
"I feel resentment over the numerous hours that I once spent studying the Bible during Wisdom searches only to find that those studies were in vain...I wonder if Paul felt this way when he looked back on his years studying as a Pharisee. I wonder if he felt that he had wasted the time, and if he later struggled to wrap his mind around the truth."
While I realize this author is a Christian, as a current atheist once raised in ATI I feel this way about the many, many hours I spent learning and being taught the "invisible truths" of Christianity. Besides providing a rudimentary knowledge of odd mythological beliefs held by a portion of the earth's population, these hours were useless and did me far more harm than good. I wish Christian parents would service their children's needs properly and provide normal experiences, scientific and liberal arts education, and chances to get out of the house and away from parental watchfulness. Children grow up eventually and, ideally, will learn to be autonomous. They should be given this chance from a young age, rather than having to fight for it as their youth turns into adulthood.
How this plays into the ATI thing...if you have kids, do them a favor and give them a normal upbringing. Make some normal mistakes. Teach them to think, but if you want their loyalty at any level once they leave your house, for the love of all that is good do not be one of the few, the chosen to fight darkness. It backfires.
Just curios, what led you to the conclusion of atheism?
What makes you think that the majority of Christian parents don't service their children's needs properly? The vast majority of Christian parents don't adhere to such stringent rules as ATI promotes.
Anon I am sorry that is your experience
My concern, Anonymous, with what you have said is not that is it incorrect . . . just that it represents the insights of someone, say, half way through their lives. Partial returns. You haven't told how the story ends . . . because you can't.
And that is the "X" factor in all of this. Lots of great advice for parents based on the experience of children in the middle stretch of life. They are more successful, we find . . . more self confident . . . maybe they have less problems, more money, happier lives than their sheltered, protected, cloistered contemporaries. Good for them. If I were living for how well my kids make it in this world, I would have dropped a lot of things a long time ago.
But . . . there is more. As has been often said: "God writes last chapters". It really isn't over until we stand before His throne and it is too late to fix things. Nobody has come back to tell us how it is. In fact, the one fellow that we read about trying to come back to warn people was denied the privilege - Jesus said - because people "have Moses and the Prophets", just like he did, and that - the Bible - is all we get. (Luke 16:31)
How will it be then? You are banking on annihilation . . . I wouldn't do that. The only way we know how it will be . . . is look and see what Jesus said, and what His people said in the Bible.
What we see is completely backwards . . .
o Poor people win, rich people lose
o The last and least come out first
o Those things greatly honored by men in time, turn out to be despised by God
o Smart people deliberately "dumb down" so they don't miss what really matters(1 Cor. 3:18)
o Giants on earth being midgets up there
o Horrible suffering down here leading to enormous "glory", so much so that some people actually refuse to be delivered from torture to "obtain a better resurrection" (Heb. 11:35).
The Wisdom Books are living for, preparing for then, not now. It goes without saying that nothing of value is ever affected by what most people think. In fact, we are told that a tiny fraction ever find the "skinny gate" leading to the "narrow way".
And how it is in the middle stretches has nothing to do with who wins the race.
Wow! And here I thought the Bible was my guide to eternal life and I was supposed to depend on the Holy Spirit.
Actually, Alfred, what you just said about WB's is one reason I say I was in a cult. We really thought some little booklets written by a man were the thing everyone needed to live the Christian life. So sad!
Alfred, your last chapter hasn't been written yet either. Don't give me any of your fear and trembling wishy washy platitudes.. if I believed you meant it, you'd be taking this all much more seriously, and not digging ditches to protect the absurd opinions of a man you idolize.
I agree with Ileata, I thought salvation was a matter of putting your faith in Jesus, not reading Wisdom Booklets. (Said booklets didn't exist for centuries, unlike the Bible, so all those poor deceived Christians for 2000 years didn't go to heaven because they didn't have Bill Gothard's Wisdom Booklets to prepare them for the next life. I guess there was no need for Jesus to die. All He needed was Billy boy's WB's. So sad. All that waste.)
Yeah. You've GOT to see the absurdity of your statement. I've asked myself so many times WHY the Holy Bible isn't good enough for ATI/Gothard followers.
Ileata and Heather,As far as I'm concerned your comments are awesome!But the most disturbing comment was made by Samuel Lundmark and all I can do is echo.Keep adhering to Gothardism at your soul's peril.I don't know how to shake someone for just a brief moment out of the lethargy of religion,more than this!There was a gal whose name was Angie Fenimore who wrote a book called "Beyond the Darkness".Her testimony is on you tube.I about cried my eyes out for she died and saw the Father,and the Son.The son through eyes of Love said "Don't you realize what I've done for you"?Angie also wrote this in her book"The time of the Second Coming is so close that if you're not actively seeking the Light you will be overcome by Darkness."I beg anyone to leave this sinking ship of Gothardism.Thanks Samuel for playing for keeps.
To anonymous---
(You might want to read my last paragraph first because the first paragraphs might turn you off.)
I am so sorry your upbringing caused you to become an atheist.
It is like you were beat daily with a teddy bear filled with nails and glass so that you would hate or fear any kind of stuffed animal!!!!
No wonder you cannot see the love of the One who died for you. You see Him as a cruel judgemental taskmaster when He is anything but as represented by those who say they believe in Him and that you should too, OR ELSE kind of stuff getting blasted at you.
But, He is not like they told you. Remember, He is always there, patiently waiting for you . He will bring you healing and love and rest for your weary mind and heart. And you don't have to do one single thing to earn it because the price has been paid.
(I completely understand the concept of wanting to be atheist…You do not have to “think” all the time about God, what He wants from you, what do you do next, or not do next and how many steps is this promise or concept away from the “reward” of pleasing Him? Ugh, it gets so mentally and emotionally tiring out. As an atheist, one only has to live life as it comes…….. without all those mental and emotional religious burdens!)
Oh yes, to be free of all those mental and emotional religious burdens! What if you understood that if the Son shall make you free, you shall be FREE INDEED! Free to do whatever your heart desires, without all that horrid analysis of "is it right or wrong, or, how will this decision affect my eternal standing in God's eyes?"
It was Jesus who said,"Come unto me and I will give you rest". When all these things required by legalism piled up so heavy that I could not bear one more thing, The Holy Spirit reminded me of these words, and I began my way back to the Lord Himself.
Ileata: “Wow! And here I thought the Bible was my guide to eternal life and I was supposed to depend on the Holy Spirit.” Heather: “WHY the Holy Bible isn't good enough for ATI/Gothard followers.”
Boy . . . I don’t know what that means to you. Do you go to church? Paul said we should not stop gathering together and “exhorting” one another. Tell me . . . why did he say that? Because we don’t have the Holy Spirit or the Bible?
“Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” (Hebrews 10:23-25)
There is a force in that section that is extreme, followed immediately by talk of “sinning willfully” and “crucifying the Son of God afresh” and “certain fearful looking for of judgment” and of the terror of “falling into the hands of the living God”. Getting to church and other gatherings of Christians to keep God’s word in front of us is, according to Paul, vital to our spiritual health.
Jesus tells us to “make disciples” of all nations (Matt. 28:19, teach = Greek for “make disciples”). That is more than seeing them saved. Why? Isn’t the Bible – which the newly saved ones can read – and the Holy Spirit enough? What does “Discipleship” mean to you?
So . . . what do you have against “Wisdom Book” study guides whose sole goal is to focus your attention on nothing but the Bible? One verse a month . . . memorize it, study it (Meditation Worksheet), examine each word, look at the history around it, learn the Greek, learn a hymn that involves the concept along with its music and history, focus on medical and science and legal and historical examples that highlight aspects of the verse. Your dismay – knowing that you know what I say to be true – is a little hard to take.
People go to seminaries to do exactly that, by the year. Study according to the theological bent, BTW, of the church or group that sponsors the seminar, make no mistake. Evangelical, Calvinistic, Orthodox, Universalist, Dispensational. Are you opposed to all of that, as violently as you have attached ATI’s study program?
You have accused me of placing the writings of men over the Bible, which, by God’s grace, I will never do. I spend hours a week studying God’s word, no “Wisdom Book” in sight.
But . . . tell me . . . what does your emphasis on “Bible and Holy Spirit Only” mean, practically? Do you spend hours a week listening to others tell you what it says so you can learn? Do you purchase and use study guide that focus on different parts of the Bible? Do you consult the writings of men – commentaries, expository dictionaries – to assist you? I know I do.
Bill Gothard’s “Wisdom Books” are exactly that, in a format that lends itself to home schooling. It is a “discipleship” program, to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe everything that Jesus said while here on earth. An exact focus because, as you know, the Wisdom Books are nothing more or less than a 5 year Bible Study of the “Sermon on the Mount” . . . one verse (more or less).a month
Tangent: I brought up 2 Peter 1 . . . in the light of Jesus' freedom and peace and rest, what do you understand "give all diligence to add to your faith virtue" (vs. 5) to mean? In verse 10 he says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" "Give diligence" to add to your faith . . . and to make your calling and election sure so your will not fall.
I thank God for His rest which I received the day I was saved . . . I will never be in hell because of what Jesus did. But verses like these don't go away. I want to know how you understand them. I want to know if you - or anyone - can help explain this. Bill Gothard does (explain this), which forms a basis for his intense character training, discipleship program known as ATI, Wisdom Books and all.
If you don't like his explanation, what is the correct one? How do you "give all diligence" to make sure you add to your faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, endurance, godliness, brotherly-love, and love?
Alfred, the way you wrote about the WB, it sounded as though you were saying that they are the guide to heaven. That's what I took issue with.
What I don't get is why you completely dismiss the testimony of so many who have been damaged by this material.
I am 36 years old. I've spent years in the ministry, including the foreign field. I'm a homeschooling mother of 4. And when I say ATI damaged my walk with God, you just defend it. Why? That doesn't even make sense to me.
Why can't you admit that it's lacking? That at least for some people the teachings, as presented, are damaging?
My husband was in ATI for 20 years. I was in for 7. We love God and want our children to be raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord. But due to our experience with ATI, what we learned from WB and other IBLP material, there is no way on earth we would EVER subject our children to that teaching. We are the fruit of what you are insisting on defending. We experienced what you have not but are insisting is right. Yet you refuse to listen to our testimony.
Sorry Alfred, I'm not taking your bait. That's not what I said or insinuated and you know it. ATI people act like Bill's interpretation of the Bible is superior to anything else, and because so much of his teachings are based on twisted scripture (which you refuse to believe therefore no evidence is good enough for you), my statement remains, Why is the Holy Bible not good enough for ATI people? I'll add to that and specify, 'Why is the Holy Bible not good enough for ATI people, that they have to follow one man's interpretation blindly?"
"Your dismay – knowing that you know what I say to be true – is a little hard to take." hahahaha, you're so cute. (not really.) All that glorious sounding rigmarole about studying Scripture through the WB would be fantastic if it wasn't based on Twisted Scripture, but again, you'll never see it that way because you've chosen what to believe, and if God himself came down and said, 'Alfred, Bill is wrong', you'd still find a way to defend him, because at this point, your pride is too big for you to let go of this. I know because I've been there. (I'm not saying that to be ugly.)
one word Alfred Context
Alfred: "So . . . what do you have against “Wisdom Book” study guides whose sole goal is to focus your attention on nothing but the Bible?"
If Wisdom Book "study guides" actually focused your attention on nothing but the Bible, I'd support them. But that's not the case. They focus your attention on very specific twisting of certain verses of the Bible as dictated by Bill Gothard and Co. Gothard defines "Wisdom" as "Viewing life from God's perspective." Calling each book a "Wisdom" book implies that it is written from God's perspective. This is a falsheood. Each "Wisdom" Book starts out with a quiz that is specifically designed to redirect and redefine the focal passage to fit an exact mold. Case in point? The "Wisdom" book on the passage regarding lusting after a woman in your heart contained a True/False question stating that commenting that a woman was pretty constituted looking on a woman with lust. I, being a rational human being despite my years, replied that the statement was false. The booklet said it was true, that observing whether or not a woman was pretty was taking note of her physical form only and inherently constituted lust. I held to that teaching for years much to the damage of my actual adult romantic relationships. This was not a Biblical teaching, it was the opinion of ONE perverted man who now has a documented history of sexual harassment by several witnesses. And this is merely a study guide to direct attention to the Bible? God save you from your delusion.
"One verse a month . . . memorize it, study it (Meditation Worksheet)"
...within very particular guidelines and down a very specific mindset that you are not allowed to question...
"examine each word, look at the history around it, learn the Greek,"
...without a proper knowledge of Greek grammar, usage, or context from an academically unqualified man who arbitrarily declared himself an expert...
"learn a hymn that involves the concept along with its music and history,"
...which totally constitutes focusing solely on Scripture because hymns are kind of on the same level as the Bible somehow...
"focus on medical"
...opinions of a non-medical professional whose dabbling in the pseudoscience and anecdotal borders on dangerous...
"and science"
...whether the "science" is actually relevant to the passage or not, or even peer reviewed or sourced properly...
"and legal"
...except for that part where we teach that home and church authority trump legal authority even in cases where crimes and abuse have occurred...
"and historical examples that highlight aspects of the verse."
...interpreted, as always, by our narrow worldview which states that Tamar and Dinah were totally asking for it, and William Carey was an evil missionary because he didn't follow whatever principle we chose to apply here. Also, David Brainerd was struck down for making a joke in college."
"Your dismay – knowing that you know what I say to be true – is a little hard to take."
No, my dismay comes from you believing that what you say is true. Look at the fruit of what Gothard has wrought. Look at the hurt lives, delayed careers, abuse, false teaching, and disappointment.
Look at the dwindling numbers in Gothard's cult as his careful control of information gives way to the rapid dissemination of what he won't tell you until after you've bought into and invested in his seminars (practices we decry in the most egregious of cults but tolerate because a self-proclaimed Bible teacher claims that HIS cult really, really works!).
Look at the homes broken, promises of a "new approach to life" unfulfilled, spiritual bondage to the opinions of men, and extra-Biblical laws that would make the *Pharisees* draw back in fear.
Look at the polished veneers of "smiling", "obedient" children that exist moment to moment in fear of leaving the "umbrella" and being destroyed by a Satan that has already been defeated. Look at the adults that are still children in practice due to a reliance on earthly spiritual authorities, despite clear instruction from Jesus Himself not to do so!
Listen, *really* listen to all of the apocryphal anecdotes that Gothard and his cadre tell you. Why don't these stories have an author? How can they be verified? Why do they inspire such fear? Why isn't the Bible enough evidence that these "Biblical" principles are true?
If you're going to continue to turn a blind eye to the evidence right in front of you and spend countless hours diverting arguments and misconstruing people's questions and recovery to puff yourself up and build up a false teacher's teachings, then I can only conclude that your dismay - knowing that you know what I say to be true - is hard to take.
Oh, right. We haven't met. I'm Arch, and I'm finally getting free of all the "study" that has stood between me and the actual teaching of God's Word that I've missed for the first 25 years of my life. I'm not looking to start an argument with you, and I'm not looking to get a response from you. And I have nothing to do with the management or staff of this website.
I'm simply asking that, before you waste more time trying to get the last word in, try shutting up, studying what everyone is *actually* saying, and quit trying to fit what you're reading here into the worldview of Gothard. All of us who are out no longer assume that Gothard was right. Just try, for a brief moment, to assume that Gothard may have been wrong. Maybe some of this will start to make sense to you.
But if not, know that whether you think this is all correct or not, the pain felt by all of us who are recovering is real. Don't presume to insult us by claiming it's "hard to take."
Alfred..you do realize the verses..sinning willfully' and crucifying the Lord' is referring to many who were going back into the Law and animal sacifices! It was very much talking about LEGALISM AND FALLING AWAY FROM THE GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS.This is why context in studying the bible is so vital.You just can't ignore the meaning of Gal :8'9
"We are the fruit of what you are insisting on defending."
I think this is the most telling sentence in this whole conversation. Alfred, for better or worse, your children will grow up to have their own relationship with God... or not.
But no one can deny that those of us who grew up under this teaching ARE the fruit that Mr. Gothard promised. Sorry it is so bitter to some. For me, moving away from these teachings has been more freeing and sweet and healing than anything I experienced in ATI.
Alfred, I am the fruit of BG's ministry and ATI's teachings, too. I have a relationship with God today, in SPITE OF, not because of, ATI's teachings. I went through my driest time spiritually in a Training Center, when I was surrounded by these teachings. It was not until after I left ATI and came to a more accurate understanding of God's grace that I have grown in my love for and relationship with the Lord. I often am amazed that, by God's grace, I did not walk away from the faith.
The Wisdom Books, while being abysmal on the educational level, are especially damaging in how they teach the Sermon on the Mount and its application. It took me YEARS to come to the realization that how Gothard taught the Sermon on the Mount in those WBs is not the way Jesus intended it to be taught or applied. Turns out that most evangelical pastors and teachers who rightly understand the principles of hermeneutics, teach an entirely different interpretation and application of that passage. In fact, my husband, who has been an ordained pastor for 17 years, was horrified to read the Wisdom Books and see how Gothard interpreted the Sermon on the Mount. It's not a list of things to do to "be blessed," but rather it's that God's relationship and blessing is on ordinary people who don't appear to measure up to the Pharisees' religious standards. I might not be explaining it as well as he explained it to me, but when I started seeing the Sermon on the Mount through this different lens, it made Jesus so much more real and approachable, and His grace so much more amazing.
My take on the Wisdom Books is that they're a terrible curriculum to use educationally (even ATI admitted you need to supplement with other educational resources to be well-rounded in all the subjects), and even worse biblically. There are SO many gaps in my education (especially in the area of science and math) because we used the Wisdom Books. And it's taken years for me to untangle the wrong theology I learned through those books.
Honestly, the Wisdom Books were a good attempt at writing a homeschool curriculum 25 years ago when there weren't many options, but the WBs have not lived up to their promise to give a solid foundation either educationally or biblically. And if you look at the return rate of former ATI students who are doing the ATI curriculum with their own families now (less than 1%), by any way you measure it, it's obvious that ATI and the educational experiment of the Wisdom Book curriculum has failed.
Please do yourself a favor and don't hold them up as a standard, either educationally or biblically. Because they fail at both... miserably.
Everything Bev just said, (except for being at the training center, I never went to any of them, thank GOD!) My driest and most miserably dead spiritual years where when I followed ATI, but I did not know or understand this until AFTER I had left it. It was so freaking scary to leave, I was terrified, but kept going after Jesus. Sometimes I was just numb, but kept holding His hand, you might say. It's an absolute miracle that I and all my siblings even want anything to do with God today, much less believe in Him and be faithful church goers etc. Some of us are still working through things (like me), but we still believe.
I agree about ATI being very lacking as an educational curriculum. I think the little material my parents received for the $600 a year they paid when we were in ATI is horrible. WB's are simply little guides for doing until studies. Today, I could get complete unit studies, with all the extra supporting books for $600 a year. I mean, comparing 12 WB's to something like a Sonlight package...well, Sonlight would give you a lot more for your money! Or My Father's World.
Alfred, often Scripture best explains Scripture:
"Narrow is the way leading to life?"(mat.7:14)
"I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. (Jn 14:6)
Questions:
What is the larger context of Matthew 5-7?
Is Jesus telling people they must work hard to be more righteous than the pharisees to make it to heaven? (Matt.5:20)
By whose righteousness are we assured eternal life?
(Rom.3:20-26, 4:4-5)
By whose faithfulness are we assured eternal life?
(jn.5:24, 6:39-40, 47)
My husband and I have been discussing that the context of any verse in the Bible is the whole Bible. It's meant to be an entire message, not little promise verses snatched out of here and there.
I think that Gothard's way of twisting Scripture has contributed to many students leaving their faith and the battle many of the rest of us have had to keep ours. When you are indoctrinated that verses mean a certain thing and then find that to be in opposition with other parts (or maybe the whole message) of Scripture, it's super confusing. Instead of automatically knowing that the interpretation we were given was wrong, it's easy to question the authority of Scripture as a whole.
Alfred,
The truth is the truth is the truth is the truth.
The end.
Not because students freed to expierence God's joy say so.
Because it is true.
It is not based on some rejecting the gospel, some embracing the TRUE gospel and some being stuck in lies.
It is based on God Alone.
Period.
There are goats at the end of the age- made of those who believed themselves to be saved.
We do know the end.
Those at seminary are given context. And re given a full, true understanding of Greek and Hebrew. Knowing a little Greek is very dangerous and opens you up to grivious errors.
I DO have to respond to that, Kin. That is precisely what the church leaders told the masses for centuries. "Dangerous, unless someone qualified (me) explains it to you."
If you wish to highlight something that you think I don't get based on your training, please do. If I highlight something based on my understanding and training, please don't reject it summarily because you feel me academically inferior :-) You might be surprised at what I know.
A key statement at the core of the Supreme Court decision kicking prayer out of schools:
"But if portions of the New Testament were read without explanation, they could be, and in his specific experience with children Dr. Grayzel observed, had been, psychologically harmful to the child and had caused a divisive force within the social media of the school."
Children read the Bible without explanation and are psychologically harmed. Can't figure it out. Do you concur? Here is what Jesus said:
"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." (Luke 10:21)
I never said it was dangerous to study the original languages. I said it was dangerous to study only a little. And it is.
When, as BG teaches all you learn is the alphabet along with simple grammar and then proceeds from there to use this "ability" (I use the word very loosely) to "study" one word at a time, great danger is found. Truth is lost in the midst of trying to make Scripture say what you want it to say, instead of coming to Scripture with an open heart and allowing it to teach you.
We are warned very severely against doing this, and for good reason.
We are warned out of love, love for us that we would not distort God's Holy words, and love that we would know the joy, truth, and freedom found in them.
My husband has studied the languages extensively in seminary and its incredible how a little knowledge, without the rest can distort the truth.
Tell me, Kin . . . why is a little study worse than no study? I quoted a verse that proves that the little kids can get it. That undermines your basic premise, that the essence of Scripture is only to be discerned through a keen mind with lots of academic training. You never responded to that.
In fact, the opposite appears to be true.
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Cor. 3:18-20)
You indicate we are "warned very severely against doing this", presumably the kind of study a non-seminary trained individual can do. Where is this warning found?
Sorry Alfred, I couldn't resist.
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Cor. 3:18-20)
By your own definition, doesn't Gothard fit this bill? (I'm not looking for an answer, I'm just throwing it out there.)
I find it more than a little ironic that you would choose this verse.
You clearly demonstrate one of, if not THE error of IBLP: taking a Scripture and placing the meaning on it that you desire for it to have.
The actual meaning of this verse: it is not addressing a vague notion that no one can know a truth.
It is a rebuke to false teachers. That's it.
Ileata: “What I don't get is why you completely dismiss the testimony of so many who have been damaged by this material.”
About as easily, apparently, as you dismiss the testimony of those who have gone the distance and appreciate all that ATI has done for them. I hang around because I want the truth, even if painful. I bought “the book”, I studied it, researched it, spent years doing so. That is why I am not afraid to look you in the eye. Which is no excuse for being insensitive or harsh.
The question I asked of Jennifer toward the top of the thread is serious. I want to know what their family – and ours - missed for multiple decades that was both really damaging and, well, blatant. You made comments up above that I intend to circle back and comment on . . . was waiting, and I guess I still am, for Jennifer’s comments. Some of where I was going, though, was highlighted in my response to “Anonymous” . . . the middle stretch is not the game. And you know, that Scripture highlights that the mid-stretch leaders are generally – if not by definition at least as a rule – not the winners. Life altering wounds and diseases (like PTST) are a consequence of war for the soldiers brave enough to fight there. Nobody responded to that thought.
Heather: “so much of his teachings are based on twisted scripture (which you refuse to believe therefore no evidence is good enough for you)”
This is getting to be a sore point to me. I got that challenge a couple of months ago and was asked to engage Dave M in his multi-part “Twisted Scripture” series. So I did. Never got off the ground. I wrote three responses to the topic he asked me to consider and got . . . nothing. I am not going to waste my time if I am not going to get taken seriously.
I don’t think Bill twists scripture. I am not dodging the issue either. I spent weeks in one of the threads on the “definition of grace” since that is “Exhibit A” for “Twisting”. Hey . . . I am not going to take that. Which certainly doesn’t mean you can’t say it. But it is really, truly not fair.
Elisa M: “"We are the fruit of what you are insisting on defending." Alfred, for better or worse, your children will grow up to have their own relationship with God... or not. “
Agreed. They are not perfect . . . no more than I am. The oldest (of 11) is 26, the youngest 4. I will leave it to others to determine their spiritual temperature. We are in “happy fellowship” with all of them, which is a blessing.
And . . . you know that the most godly of parents have produced some pretty bad results. So . . . it would be pretty tough to say that an explosion, even multiple explosions, is proof of failure, right? Godly Samuel . . . not one of his sons walked in his way. We know David’s troubles . . . Isaac . . . Hezekiah. You tell me what you learn from their lives. If it is, “don’t do what they did”, then I will accept your accounts as proof that ATI is evil.
BeverlyB: “I might not be explaining it as well as he explained it to me, but when I started seeing the Sermon on the Mount through this different lens, it made Jesus so much more real and approachable, and His grace so much more amazing.”
I respect your husband and will listen to whatever he has to say.
“Please do yourself a favor and don't hold them up as a standard, either educationally or biblically. Because they fail at both... miserably.”
I am not ready to declare that. I am hard pressed to find another curriculum that is that focused on preparing our children and young people for the war, instead of to be successful in earthly life. Guerilla Warfare 101. How to Treat Wounds, How to Detect the Enemy, IEDs and Traps, Know your Weapons and How to Use Them. May not be the best curriculum, but it is essential. Parents of children in an active battlefield train their children much differently than parents living in peace and wealth.
Looks like I have some catching up to do since writing this, seeing intervening comments.
yeah, I saw your responses and his answers. You're acting like you didn't get a response, you got PLENTY of responses. What happened was the two of you both realized neither was going to be convinced, so the matter dropped (without either of you officially saying so). If you see it another way, that is of course your decision, but I certainly will not appreciate any attempt to ahem, 'slander' David in such a way, to suggest that he didn't want to engage you. He did.
As for it being a sore point with you, what on EARTH do you think it is with us? You're constantly asking questions (which is fine) but you're asking in such a way so that you can argue your own position, not actually learn the truth! (Someone you know and admire actually said not to do that.. His initials are B. G.) I see a mix of rhetoric, loaded questions, and baited questions. It gets old really fast.
We have ALL at one point been where you are, in defense of Gothard and his multiple programs. I really don't know if you have properly thought that through and get it. I feel like you treat us all as if we're just spoiled children who haven't got anything else to complain about, and I can tell you, having nearly committed suicide over the absolutely real struggle over all of this, that that is NOT the case. It's quite a sore spot for us.
No . . . I am not going to take that either. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/the-sexual-rules-of-mr-gothard/ . . . I never wearied of trying to change his mind because, well, I never got the chance. Have a look and tell me that isn't me hanging around, waiting for him to engage. Nope, he didn't.
I am sorry to hear of your struggles. I suppose you would know enough of me by now that I take that really seriously. And - no - not because I am looking for which of the 6 Principles (or whatever) you violated. I spent an evening in a Psych ward of a major University hospital because friends were deeply concerned for my mental state, depression. As I have said many times, I myself have greatly failed, greatly suffered, am probably not good enough for ATI. I have never told anyone they were wrong for walking away, allowing that we reserve the right to do so ourselves. ATI is not heaven on earth, it is not the well of all truth. It is just a tool that I still continue to appreciate for what it is, while proceeding with our walk with Jesus. You have a right to complain, the website is there for that purpose, I remain a guest seeking to remember my manners.
But I get irritated with getting accused of dodging, not responding, not engaging, not thinking, "closed mind", etc. Enough, already. I have invested far too much to easily let go, but I am anything but closed minded.
Glad you're not passing judgment on me, although at this point I would probably just laugh and walk away if you had.
You think you're not good enough for ATI, I'm very sorry you think that. Don't you see that you are putting a mere program (among thousands) on the same level of God? God is the ONLY one you should be thinking you're not good enough for, which is of course true.
I guess it's pointless to pursue what I see as your unwillingness to truly grasp what we're trying to say. I guess my thought is, why on earth are you still on this site? After hundreds of article and thousands of comments, there is NOTHING we can say that will change your mind, I do believe even the most horrendous story wouldn't affect you beyond having pity for the individual involved, so WHY do you keep pressing? Haven't you made up your mind already? Haven't you gotten the proof you need? What, do we need to give you another hundred articles? What exactly are you looking for?
I see you said you have invested too much to let go, yes, perhaps you are right. But it's not so much this dialogue and heavy conversation you're not letting go of, it's the program you're not letting go of. I don't know how else to say it, and believe it or not, I'm weary of pressing the same points over and over again as they clearly aren't getting us anywhere.
It is amazing to me, Heather, that you can so easily assume that I and my family have not suffered, deeply. That is simply not the case. We heard what we felt to be the call of the Lord through the ministry of Mr. Gothard and committed our child bearing to Him (with my wife leading on this one). We committed ourselves to becoming debt free, ending up in a 1,000 sq. ft. home with - ultimately - 7 children for 13 years. This included 2 home births, where the kids had to travel to the bathroom through the backyard because the only other way was through the bedroom, where my wife was in labor.
After being in the program just a year my wife ended up in a total collapse, bed ridden, unable to cope with life (she was subsequently diagnosed with mononucleosis, after the majority of symptoms had resolved). I was also in major exhaustion and depression, insomnia, panic attacks. At that point we dragged ourselves to Knoxville, the two of us, for the sole purpose of getting some counsel, help. The counselor that we saw is mentioned by name elsewhere on the website (not Mr. G.), ultimately leaving the ministry with a cloud . . . his only advice to us was that we had to leave our church, since it was too conservative (I guess). We came to the oracle, and we came away . . . with that. We came home with no idea how we were going to deal with Monday morning and me leaving for work . . . God sent along this one and that one and by this and that He brought us through.
Mr. Gothard was not there to tell us what to do. Couldn’t help us when first the air conditioning and then a brand new tire blew out in the old van that we could afford on the way back from an ATI conference with 9 kids in 103 degree heat in the middle of nowhere with my 6 month pregnant wife. He never paid the overwhelming expenses that we incurred . . . he couldn’t tell us what to do as we encountered various black pits along the way, when all of the principles of success didn’t seem to work. He wasn’t there to defend us when relatives screamed at us for our foolishness, when honored people in our church rebuked us openly.
I have plenty more stories . . . of severe toxemia with our 11th that put both baby and Momma in grave danger forcing a premature hospital birth after 5 home births, of the years of medical problems that followed, hormonal problems, other issues requiring multiple hospital visits and ultimately a hysterectomy and loss of an ovary. That is not supposed to happen when you are “doing it right”. Bill Gothard has never fixed any of those problems, nor been able to explain them.
The reason I hang here? I really am one of you . . . we have been through the fire. I have both eyes wide open.
Which is why I must ask: Why must you assume that I am the one to change my mind? We have bought our little platform at some cost. Nobody has to listen to me . . . and I have every responsibility to listen to what else is being said, and feel it, and weep with those that weep. I admit to insensitivity, and I will do my best to admit it and make my blunders right.
But . . . I do not apologize for posting here.
My goodness, Alfred. You have completely ignored the simple fact that we are HURTING from these teachings. We have had severe trauma from the world of ATI and Bill Gothard. Healing is what we are after...That is why this website exists. This article said that even though her family was not as steeped in the program as most, she was still hurt by it. Why do you argue your point as if it's going to change our minds to believe that our wounds aren't real? Do you think that we imagined the pain we endured as children/teens/adults from ATI? Do you think that we don't need to heal because we made up these injuries? I for one am not bitter or angry. I have a crazy past, and my story begins with ATI, from there i was pushed into some things i wish i take back, however i did eventually find the truth and who God is. I just recently started my journey of healing and finding this site and knowing i was not alone made all the difference.
Maybe you (or your family) are not being injured by ATI, but others have. Maybe you see it as a way to the truth, and if that is the case, i will pray for you. I challenge you, stop pushing your agenda, and try to see it through our eyes. ASK the Lord to help you to see it the way we do. Ask the Lord to help you see everything though HIS eyes. Question what we are saying by taking it to HIM. When i decided that i didn't want to be a christian, someone told me to ask the Lord to show me that He was indeed real, that He loves me, and that He wanted a relationship with ME. If He can do that for me, He can show you what we are feeling!
"we are HURTING from these teachings."
I am not denying your experience. But since I am no outsider but heavily engaged and also a sufferer, the "What, How and Why" become real important to me.
Yes, I am praying for insights, eyes to see. If I find Scripture promising that people who are on the right track are going to have huge problems as part of God's training program, I want to know what part of this suffering is God and what part is Gothard. As I look back at the suffering we have gone through that I still cannot attribute to any specific thing, you can see why I really need to understand. If it is God, I will take it.
Are you asking us to clarify how we were suffering from ATI, vs how we suffer for the glory of God? or are you comparing them, as if suffering from ATI is suffering for God...
Suffering from ATI came in many forms, the worst is how it taught me who God was, and it sure isn't the God i know and serve today. ATI taught me that God was all about working to make him happy, and i thought my salvation was something i could lose if i didn't continuously earn it. This really isn't the place to discuss as i don't want to hijack or take away from the author, so i could email you, if you'd like.
Another good article derailed by Alfred.
Alfred is a internet TROLL! The next time he posts on an article. IGNORE him! He "KNOWS" he is "right". So, no amount of arguing with him will change his views on ATI.
You mean alfred tried to derail it---but didn't happen. Just some more proof of bill's manipulation of scripture.
I am reading a Matter of Basic Principles presently, It appears that all Bill Gothard and his supporters (those indoctrinated by Bill) really have is redefinition of basic biblical concepts, debates over words, (semantics) and a game of smoke and mirrors, (side tracking and redirecting the argument).
Bill can't admit he is wrong, why would our detractor who lives in a constant state of denial here be any different?
Alfred, 'why am I the one who must change my mind?' Because you were not raised in this program, you CANNOT know what it was like to be raised in it, ergo, you CANNOT understand the subtle damage it does to a child's soul that is brought up with lies. Not like this. I'm NOT dismissing your struggles or concerns, or anything like that, nor am I accusing you of being a bad father. Like my parents, I'm sure you tried to do the best you could. Parenthood in ATI is an AWFUL burden to bear.
You have passed through fire, yes, absolutely, and I am sorry for that. You haven't passed through this fire. And you won't. Because you were not raised with this. Your children will be the one to pass through this fire, IF anyone from your family does. I cannot think of any other way to make it more clear to you. I'm not trying to be uncompassionate.
(As an aside, I think you need a new counselor. Try one outside of ATI. Someone committed to help. I've had some mild experience with great counselors, and can't even begin to describe the wonderful things I learned, that genuinely helped. Very seriously, I suggest this: Try a church/counselor/program that is not affiliated with ATI, Vision Forum, or any other ultra conservative fundy group. You may be extraordinarily, PLEASANTLY surprised by what you find.)And I say that with a heart that genuinely cares about you and your family.
"That is not supposed to happen when you are “doing it right”. I hate to nitpick here, but the Scripture doesn't guarantee us a happy, healthy life if we 'do things right'. It rains on the just and the unjust. I HATE that so many people bought into the lie that, 'if you just follow this or do that 'right', God will do...' Huh? What? And consequently, when bad times come, people feel more bogged down than usual, 'where did I go wrong' or somesuch, when really, maybe it was just part of God's will for whatever reason. I couldn't possibly claim to know the answer either, but having watched my parents suffer through that belief, and having suffered it myself, I'm calling it false.
Just let go of ATI, since it has failed you so much. Let go and let God, I guess.
You don't know me well enough to understand deliberately highlighted irony. We have been to non-ATI counselors, and in fact never went to any other IBLP counseling . . . except brief conversations with Mr. G himself. I am a big fan of a "friend that is near" vs. something official and important far off. The statement about "doing it right" was quite deliberate as well.
I beg to differ on the children vs. parents. I am a grown up kid, attending Basic Seminars twice yearly from age 14 on, immersed in the principles. And if ATI is done right, the parents are living and breathing whatever their children are, studying the same materials. If my young people are being impressed with principles and commitments that I am not aware of and approve of, shame on me. 90% of ATI is the home, what the parents do and allow, lots of heart and gut checks.
Young people at IBLP locations is a different matter. We have done little of that. Another family that we know and deeply love, 2nd year families, remain fast friends of the program with 14 kids all in harmony with them. One of their funny little quirks is that they refused to send their young people out for long term "opportunities", and even shorter "programs" were very rare. They just felt that they wanted that "hands-on" to be theirs. It worked for them.
I know there are "issues" . . . I have made up my mind to never be in a position to blame IBLP for anything. If we do or allow or teach something, we do it because the Lord told us to, not Mr. G. If there are consequences - i.e. with lots of kids, for example - it is to Him we go, not to him.
You still don't know what it's like to be raised in it from infancy, I think that's what's missing.
Well, all I have to say is this, if your children ever come to you and say they have issue with ATI, and/or want to walk away from it, I BEG you in the name of all that is holy and good, to not fight them, shame them, guilt trip them, or anything like that. If they're going to walk away from it, they're going to leave on the inside before they ever leave on the outside and I PROMISE you this: if you do not make yourself available as a kind parent who will love and respect them regardless, they will NOT come to you for guidance, and that may push them from the faith entirely. You better believe I know what I'm talking about.
Also do not take it personally if your children do walk away from it (presuming here that they aren't leaving the faith, just this program, and even if they do leave the faith, there's NOTHING you can actively do to prevent that, except pray. Any desperate and well meaning steps you take, may just make it worse, please believe me.)
Your children's decisions do not necessarily reflect on you, even though you may see it that way. I have found that many ATI parents do not recognize their children as individuals who have their own thoughts, dreams, desires, etc.. and tend to think that whatever their (the parent's) dreams are, ought to be the child's dreams too. This does not work. This leads to families falling apart more often than not. There may be exceptions (there's usually exceptions to every case,) but that doesn't justify certain behaviors.
I'm not assuming that you're a rotten guy who'll do these kinds of things, I've just seen lots of otherwise decent parents not realize what they're doing to their children, and could never see anyone else's perspective as valid.
I.E. I disagree with my parents about this or that that they're doing with my younger siblings, and I hear, 'well when you're a parent, you'll understand. You don't know what you're doing."
To which I want to say, "Um, neither of ya'll were raised this way, and ya'll don't know from personal experience WHY that doesn't work. I was raised like that, and if you'd give me a chance, I could tell you EXACTLY why xyz doesn't work, because ya'll did it to me, and I know. So just because I'm not a parent yet, my very personal experience is invalid? And might I remind you that you did this with ALL of your children, and it NEVER worked? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results." (And I don't say that to trash anyone, I'm not talking about devastating, evil decisions, just the minor ones that make life miserable.)
Anyway... Please take my last couple of comments as kindly meant and well intended.
I do, Heather. Thank you for saying it. I guess we do have a bit of a different perspective from what you are reacting to. Maybe early on it would have been different with us . . . non-optional. But, again, we as parents have suffered too much over the years to make ATI the driving force. The children know that.
True for a great many other things.
Such as childbearing. I told my wife at the beginning that we would take all that the Lord would give us as long as she had peace. That peace lasted through all of what was described, my incredible wife, but she lost that after the trauma of the last baby. So small and then large measures were taken - he is our last.
Like our church which, if you knew, is much different that most in terms of commitment and life-long expectations. We have moved across the country and done a great many things to stay in fellowship where we are. But we both know that if we had to choose between our fellowship and the family, the family will win. Grateful that it has not come to that.
Leaving Jesus, yes, on that we are hardcore.
So . . . Put it that way and I don't disagree. And I, again, appreciate you speaking from your heart.
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