28 Comments

1. 

   David February 28, 2013 Reply

   Good stuff.

2. 

   MatthewS February 28, 2013 Reply

   Any wonder I couldn’t grow into these “standards,” or be them…
   In frustration I would cut myself slack because these ideas were, after all, “just an ideal”…
   
   “Nobody’s perfect,” but then I’d rant when “they” were not perfect
   And talk about how bad “they” were, when I was just as bad inside

   
   
   That rings so true

3. 

   Robin March 1, 2013 Reply

   So true...

4. 

   Becky March 7, 2013 Reply

   Very deep and beautiful. It spoke to my heart.

5. 

   John Doe March 9, 2013 Reply

   Strange... when I was at TC, I wasn't taught this.. always understood standards had nothing to do with salvation...

6. 

   Will Hunsucker March 10, 2013 Reply

   John Doe,
   
   works-sanctification leads to logical doubt of or additions to salvation by grace alone.
   
   Every bit as much as our eternal salvation is not dependent upon our works but God's grace, our life of sanctification is dependent upon God's grace working within us.
   
   In Rom.11:6, regarding the role of God's grace and our works in our salvation, the apostle Paul says this:
   "...if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
   
   In Gal.3:2-3, regarding the role of dependance upon works in our sanctification Paul says:
   "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"
   
   While never discounting works, Paul seems to draw VERY clear lines at what our *focus* should be on, and the importance of priorities in our thinking, as in Eph.2:8-10. We are saved by grace, 'created in Christ Jesus for good works, that god has prepared as a way of life for us' - the emphasis is God's action by grace, and our response, by grace.
   
   Am I making sense here...?
   
   The question of what our focus is on, even as we aim to live as children of God, in a lifestyle that reflects his love and holiness is essential. We can all too easily come to focus on our 'doing everything right' to gain favor with God and man as opposed to relying completely on God in His grace working in an through our imperfect and weak selves. (i.e. 2 Cor.4:6-7, 12:9-10)
   
   Almost the entire thrust of Bill Gothard's ministry leads us to rely on our 'doing things right' (as defined by BG) to gain God's favor and blessing in all aspects of our Christian life.

7. 

   John Doe March 11, 2013 Reply

   Your theories are interesting... as neither iblp or i believe in a works based sanctification...

   • 

     David M March 11, 2013 Reply

     I will grant that works based sanctification is never explicitly taught. Thus, I won't dispute over what the leadership or you believe. However, both the explicit and implicit doctrines and teachings as well as the common practices within ATI lead to works-based sanctification as a practice regardless of what you or the leadership may believe. This is the problem that I have.

8. 

   John Doe March 11, 2013 Reply

   Gaining God's blessing.... hmmm if you don't smoke, you likely won't get lung cancer... but you would be a legalist... do you have consequences if you break a law? That makes a police officer a legalist?? Legalism, using the term, is being used to justify what you disagree with

   • 

     David M March 11, 2013 Reply

     Why do you say one would be a legalist for smoking?

   • 

     David M March 11, 2013 Reply

     Scuse me, I meant for not smoking. Is that what you think people on RG are saying is legalism?

   • 

     David M March 11, 2013 Reply

     Well, since experience has lead me to doubtful of getting an answer to any question put to you, I will simply respond as best I can...
     
     John Doe, it seems (and please correct me if I am wrong about any of this) that you think that those on RG are saying that refraining from doing certain things (ie. not smoking, not listening to rock music, etc.) is equivalent to legalism. Obviously I can't answer for everyone who comments on RG, but am quite familiar with most of the authors on RG and thus have a good idea of what they mean by legalism. So let me correct an apparent misunderstanding at work.
     
     For the authors on RG, legalism is not simply refraining from doing certain things. In fact, most, and definitely myself, would defend your freedom not to smoke, not drink, not listen to CCM, etc. These things do not constitute legalism.
     
     What we see as legalism is the when someone takes personal, arbitrary and extra-bibilical standards and
     a. holds these as requirements for all believers
     b. and worse, sees these as a means to please God (and, conversely, teaches that God is displeased if one does otherwise)
     
     Hopefully this helps to clear up an apparent misunderstanding.

9. 

   John Doe March 11, 2013 Reply

   Legalism is a straw mam

   • 

     David M March 11, 2013 Reply

     How so?

   • 

     Wes March 12, 2013 Reply

     Legalism
     
     noun
     1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, ***especially to the letter rather than the spirit.***
     2. Theology .
     a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
     b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

   • 

     "Hannah" March 14, 2013 Reply

     You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

10. 

    John Doe March 11, 2013 Reply

    Why not discuss issues rather than dismissing it all as legalism... pretty judgmental to call a ministry or person a legalist..

    • 

      David M March 11, 2013 Reply

      I have several articles on RG where I discuss things in detail rather than simply dismiss Mr G as a legalist. I would be glad to have a conversation with you over any of them.

    • 

      Wes March 12, 2013 Reply

      Hey John Doe... Some reminders...
      
      1 John 4:-14
      Beloved, ***do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.*** By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
      
      1 Thess. 5:21
      ***But test everything; hold fast what is good.***
      
      Rom. 12:2
      Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that ***by testing you may discern*** what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
      
      Gal 5:1
      For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and ***do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.***

    • 

      "Hannah" March 14, 2013 Reply

      Have you not noticed, that the entire website is about this ongoing discussion? How about we just have a discussion instead of calling you "John"? You call the descriptor judgemental, we call it the truth.

11. 

    John Doe March 12, 2013 Reply

    Many of you violate Rom. 12:2 bc of the movies you all watch and quote from... which destroys your credibility... when you as a professing Christian see a movie with swearing, sex, violence in it..

    • 

      David M March 12, 2013 Reply

      Ok, let's assume your use of this verse is correct. Would you also include movies which portray things like hatred, greed, not loving your neighbor as yourself or failing to love God with your whole being? If not, why? If so, shouldn't you rule out movies altogether for believers?

    • 

      "Hannah" March 14, 2013 Reply

      I'm with David, here. The Scriptures say not to do certain things (sex is perfectly allowable in Scripture), it doesn't say not to watch movies containing it.
      
      Do you read the Bible? Because the Bible has a heck of a lot of that kind of stuff in the narrative.

12. 

    John Doe March 12, 2013 Reply

    How about use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve on another... Put on Jesus, and make not provision to the flesh... in regards to movies, music, eyc

    • 

      David M March 12, 2013 Reply

      "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
      
      So don't do these sorts of things and you are not using your liberty to give occasion to the flesh.

13. 

    John Doe March 13, 2013 Reply

    Yes, does rule out just about all movies... works of flesh.. adulteries... those verses back up my point..

    • 

      David M March 13, 2013 Reply

      So, you take a verse which says don't do these things and turn it into one which says don't even see these things. Interesting use of Scripture...

14. 

    David M March 14, 2013 Reply

    I did not say this (btw, classic example of a straw man - overreact to something which the other person never said). I merely noted your, to be frank, abuse of Scripture.