The key word here is “alone,” which becomes the primary obstacle to those who want to add any system of works to establish one’s own righteousness before a holy God. Romans 10:1-5.
God’s plan and promise through the Ages was to provide His son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the only source for salvation and life, for righteousness, for sanctification and for redemption. (I Cor. 1:30-31). By God’s divine power He has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Jesus Christ who called us by His own glory and excellence… (II Peter 1:2-4).
The entire Word of God explains, illustrates, and offers unending support that God was putting on display for His Glory the Preeminence of Jesus Christ, the Exclusivity of the claims of Jesus Christ, and the All Sufficiency of Jesus Christ for all who would become the children of God.
The Preeminence of Jesus Christ is declared by God, “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross…” Colossians 1:15-22.
The Exclusive Claims by Jesus Christ force a decision when He announces, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. “…all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:16-17. Jesus was clear that He, Christ, was the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life. What can you offer that would compete with that? Why would you offer anything less and thereby hide the good news of the Gospel?
The All Sufficiency of Jesus Christ is proclaimed throughout the Scripture, “By His doing (God’s) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (I Corinthians 1:30-31). It may help to put the name of Jesus Christ in direct linkage to each provision He delivers to the children of God stating that “By His doing (God’s doing) you are in Christ Jesus, who,
Christ Jesus became to us wisdom from God, and Jesus Christ became to us righteousness and Jesus Christ became to us sanctification and Jesus Christ became to us redemption.”
Note: Additional Scripture and comments on these aspects of Jesus Christ are attached to this paper as "Study Notes."
Whenever religions, denominations, churches, or individual Teachers and Preachers attempt to add to the “simplicity that is in Christ” (II Cor. 11:1-4) or depart from that simplicity they become entangled in either “adding to or taking away” from the Word of God. When these Teachers and Preachers begin to insert their own commandments of men and build up their own religious culture of rules and regulations, standards and requirements, they nullify the gospel and the completed work of Christ.
Teachings and claims which feature and are based on the wisdom and devices of a man displaces two basic aspects of genuine spiritual life; 1) it displaces or in the least competes with the relationship of the believer they already have in Christ which is supported by the power of walking with the indwelling Spirit of God; and 2) displaces the Word of God as “sola scriptura” that the Word contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness.” They lead many men, women and children into spiritual confusion, bondage and render them to be powerless religious pursuits. Moral to be sure but a manmade morality stripped of any spiritual strength or underpinnings.
But, What If It Is a Good Thing?
If you were anything like me, I was greatly helped by certain of the teachings of the Basic Seminar produced by Bill Gothard. I was thrilled to bring my friends and family to scores of the early seminars in the 1960s and 1970s. I was greatly honored to serve the Lord in the ministry of the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (IBYC), the ministry of Bill Gothard. I was mighty proud to be associated with Bill Gothard, the renowned Teacher, and believed I was doing God’s work. What could possibly become unrighteous or out of order in this experience of ministry and service?
A great amount of detail and documentation answers this question, but one account may illustrate best what has become so wrong and out of order in the teachings and ministry of Bill Gothard. This story simply illustrates the same problems that are multiplied in their consequences from his teachings on topics like forbidding men to wear beards, men receiving circumcision, husbands abstaining from sex with their wives for various and repeated periods of time, along with a host of other teachings relying upon Mosaic Law. These are added into, mixed and co-mingled with his erroneous interpretations of Scripture on such subjects as sins of the fathers visited to the 3rd and 4th generations, that Bill Gothard and other leaders are the Lord’s anointed and therefore are not subject to correction, spiritual gifts, moral purity, and a host of other similar teachings that mix Mosaic Law, Gothard’s own “non-optional” Principles , creating erroneous definitions of Faith and Grace, plus the elevation of his personal opinions to be equal in authority as the Word of God itself. A simple illustration of this follows.
A Pig in a Poke
Now 500 years old, this common idiom is still a good warning today. In the Middle Ages, when good meat was scarce, in their eagerness and hunger the one seeking food would quickly buy a “pig in a poke” (a closed bag) and pay the value for a pig. Upon traveling home he would discover in the bag only a cat or a puppy, not of much value for a meal for his starving family, in addition to having lost the price of a pig from his savings. The second idiom came from the first, “someone let the cat out of the bag” disclosing the scheme of the ill-motivated peddler.
A well-known example is Gothard’s selling the idea there is a moral benefit and spiritual blessing from God if any person will stop eating any pork or tuna products. Gothard believes that eating pork is not acceptable to Christians and violates the Law of God, teaching others, and disallowing the eating of BLTs, ham sandwiches and tuna salads, making it a point of division of Christian fellowship. Not only does he believe this restriction will benefit you spiritually and gain for you spiritual blessing, he imposes his personal opinions on others along with references to his proof texts in the Bible while pressuring and shaming people into compliance. In my case he pressed me to persuade and pressure my Dad, brother, and Uncle to stop raising hogs back home on the Kansas farm. This pressure continued over several years, which I replicated to my family causing much family strain and conflict. A good number of fellow staff became aware of this. Ignorant I thought I was not, but I bought into this legalism and pressure, and I put great pressure on my very own family to stop the family business of breeding and raising hogs for a living.
In God’s mercy, He arranged by Gothard’s own invitation for Dr. Charles Ryrie to come to IBYC in Oak Brook to teach the entire staff some basic doctrine over a 2 day conference in the library on the second floor of the new building. Dr. Ryrie chose the topic of Law and Grace.
On the 2nd day of the Oak Brook visit, Dr. Ryrie opened it up for Questions after one session. I raised my hand, and he gladly called on me in my normal back row seat. Bill Gothard and his brother and father were in attendance sitting front and center six feet from Dr. Ryrie. “My question, Dr. Ryrie, how would you characterize a teacher of the Scriptures who would forbid others from eating pork and tuna and would pressure his audience to stop raising hogs as a business?” Dr. Ryrie quickly and easily answered, “That man would be a false teacher.” I am not aware that Dr. Ryrie ever learned my need of the hour, the purpose of the question, or that the answer reflected upon his host.
I soon thereafter flew back to Wichita to meet with my family and confess this wrong toward them and described my shame of having accepted this contrary and false doctrine. Gothard’s pressure on myself and my family, and the resulting loss of family fellowship and strength, was wrong, shameful, and detestable to God. My error was coming to believe that Bill Gothard spoke as authoritatively as the Word of God. The result was making Bill Gothard an idol, and he gladly accepted my worship.
This offense and damage has never been confessed or corrected by Bill Gothard, and this false doctrine, widely taught and promoted by him, has never been acknowledged.
So What Does this Admixture and Co-Mingling of Law, Principles and References to the Grace of God Create?
When Bill Gothard insists that Christians must comply with the Mosaic Law and its demands, he causes and multiplies tremendous and serious damage to the spiritual lives of his followers and to the church of Jesus Christ. He causes direct harm to the good news of the Gospel.
1. Bill Gothard’s insistence that the Mosaic Law on foods (or any other demand of the Law) be complied with brings him and his followers into the tension of living by the entire Law in all of its requirements to become acceptable to God. Galatians 5:3 declares “…I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.” Even if you were able to live perfectly by the Law, it does not help you spiritually!!! “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins…In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have taken no pleasure…Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins…” Hebrews 10:3-11; 9:8-12
2. Bill Gothard rejects the plain teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles in the Holy Spirit inspired writings of the New Testament and presses those who will listen to join him in that rejection of the Gospel’s teaching. Jesus said clearly, “it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person…” (Matthew 15:11-20; Mark 7:15). Also expanded by the Apostles often and clearly, warning believers that Teachers would come along commanding them to abstain from meats, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, … having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For EVERY creature of God is good, and NOTHING to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” (I Timothy 4:1-5). The word “every” is “pas” which means the same as each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything. Gothard also rejects the teachings of Acts 10:9-17, Romans 14:2-3, I Corinthians 10:27-31 and Colossians 2:16.
3. Bill Gothard explains away these clear and repeated New Testament teachings causing increasing and ongoing doubt that we, his hearers, will ever be able to simply read and follow the teachings of the Bible on our own. This practice undermines the believer’s reliance on the promise of God that the Holy Spirit will and is able to teach us about God’s Truth. “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…” (John 16:13-14).
4. Bill Gothard maintains his relationship with a number of religious groups that also adhere to the Old Testament Law demanding obligations of Christians in the church age. Gothard relies on these groups for support, attendance at his meetings, and purchase of his materials. The groups include Seventh Day Adventists, Bob Jones schools and associated churches, and other fundamentalist church denominations which themselves embrace the Mosaic Law as the foundation of their Gospel. Early in his ministry these leaders called him into meetings and communicated their insistence that his message reflect their doctrines if they would send their people to his meetings. Gothard, like Barnabas of old (Galatians 2:13), got caught up in their hypocrisy and once in, it is hard economically to extricate oneself.
5. Bill Gothard was increased in his pride for getting you and me to submit to his teachings of his private interpretations of the Scriptures, whether not eating or raising pigs for business, or not being allowed as a believer to wear a beard, or any other rule, restriction or opinion related to dress code, hair style, selection of friends and a marriage partner, or any other device or scheme he might insist upon. “Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.” It is impossible and very confusing when one teaches compliance with the Law of Moses while trying to explain Romans 8:1-4. “…for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Galatians 6:12-15 explains what motivates men like this, “Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.” They are accepted in certain religious circles because of their insistence on keeping the Law and an assortment of additional little laws, even if they make occasional reference to Christ and the cross, failing to see the complete conflict with the purpose of the cross of Jesus Christ!
6. Bill Gothard takes back the freedom which Christ Jesus died to bring you into. He entices and enforces your subjection again to the slavery from which Christ Jesus set you free! “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly…It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery…” (Galatians 2:19-21; 5:1-9).
The Precepts of Man
A number of dynamics are put into motion when a Teacher introduces teachings which are the “precepts of man,” which are the “commandments of men” and/or are derived from the Law of Moses which “is not of faith” (Galatians 3:10-14), and which displace the clear teachings of Jesus Christ.
1. For many believers, the Bible is a very large book and a bit overwhelming when they learn it is a combination of 66 books. For many, the Bible is at a first reading a very complex book, clearly not easily mined for its great riches by the casual reader who might read something from it 5 or 10 minutes each week. It seems to many, that to understand the Bible would take a very great effort and a lot of time and talent they don’t have or are unwilling to commit.It is a very natural and easy decision to let someone, nearly anyone, offer to us the conclusions of their study of the Bible. And it is simply addictive to have someone come along and have the entire Scriptures reduced to a set of instructions with 5 or even 10 Easy Steps, to consult an outline of formulations for how to resolve most every common human need and conflict by referencing a menu and table of contents to get to the correct instructions for the need of the hour.
2. The Teacher (in this case Bill Gothard) became my Master in pressing me to obey the Law regarding no eating of pork and no raising of pigs. His teachings along with his insistence he is our spiritual (and in this case workplace) Chain of Command, his wishes were our/my command. I never did like slopping hogs or cleaning pig pens, so I was clearly open to his ideas! His instructions had an expectation that they would be followed and adhered to. Gothard did not invite, encourage, or reward anyone who offered any serious challenge to his questionable interpretations of the Scriptures. He did not often award his followers as “NOBLE” for “examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so…” (Acts 17:11). Jesus was fairly clear when He declared, “But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.” (Matthew 23:8, KJV) Along with many others, I had looked to the wrong Teacher to be my Master / trainer.
3. A system of Principles (little laws) replaces a relationship with the living Christ
The introduction of the Law or of any standard or principle that places a demand on a person to perform in a certain way to obtain the blessing of God, the requirement God already put in place in Christ by the Father has been displaced and replaced. The outcome is that “Christ will be of no benefit to you.” Gal. 5:2. The sad experience of each person who submits to and attempts to follow the requirements and standards outlined in the Law (or any similar system of law or program of principles to earn the favor and blessing of God) will include “falling from grace” and fearful discouragement and he/she becomes obligated before God to attempt to keep the entire Law or system.
In the case of IBYC (pre-1981) and now IBLP, the “7 Universal Non-Optional Principles,” while many references to Scripture are cited (often quite out of context and with obvious use of eisegesis), have been introduced to myself and several millions of people, as a system and program with inherent demands of a performance system involving standards, laws, and rules, formulas, and a series of man devised solutions with steps to solve every human need. Any common dictionary is clear about the definition and meaning of “Principle” being “a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived” (Dictionary.com); “a fundamental or general truth or law.”
The spiritual struggle of so many 100s of 1,000s of alumni of the Basic Seminar can be understood in the contrast between how God’s Word defines our relationship with God the Father and the indwelling Spirit of God, which relationship is in direct and complete conflict with slavery to the Law and its demands which can never be satisfied and which does not produce holiness. This slavery invites and encourages efforts of the flesh which produce its own bad fruit (Gal. 5:16-18). This futility is made clear throughout the New Testament."
For as many (people) as are of the works of the Law are under a curse…” Gal. 3:10“But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men…You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.” Mark 7:7-9
“…in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of NO value against fleshly indulgence.” Col. 2:22-23
“…Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Hebrews 11:6, and “…those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:8
“…For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes…abounding in riches for all who call on Him.” Romans 10:2-4, 12
Our task as believers is to identify any thing that may even appear religious and good but which in itself undermines the very Gospel of Christ Jesus and the grace of God. “We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ…” II Cor. 10:4-6
The “precepts of man” are the created ideas, teachings, opinions, personal views, personal “revelations and special insights” which may sound quite good and even authoritative, but which put a demand on you and me to meet a certain and specific set of standards defined by the Teacher. They come with the Teacher’s insistence upon your compliance earning his praise and with the promised “blessings of God” if you keep them! Such precepts and principles, in their essence compete with and diminish the clear teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. They move a person away from their position with God the Father where His blessings are already fully available to the child of God through the work and merit of Christ Jesus alone and thus are known as the Grace of God.
Most believers might embrace and agree with the teaching that their salvation has come about “…by grace…through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (in their own performance or working to gain it or keep it).” Eph. 2:8-9.
Those same believers may be less confident or unsure of how their ongoing Christian life must follow the very same basis for the relationship with God the Father. Colossians 2:6 states it this way, “Just like you have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him.”
Our human nature gravitates too often to any invitation by so called Teachers to follow a certain program, complete a certain outline of specific steps, to submit to an array of commitments, to solve difficult personal conflicts with a proven formula, and submit to them or others assigned as an authority in our life so that God’s blessings can be experienced by just such obedience. Here is what the Bible makes fairly clear about this approach:
“…that which is not of faith is sin.” Romans 14:23
“…the Law is not of faith.” Gal. 3:12
“For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” Gal. 2:19-21
God wants so very much for you to grow up into a mature relationship with the Father, communicating with and adjusting your life to the Word of God by the teaching of the indwelling Spirit of God. Any switch of reliance from God’s Word and God’s Spirit to the “weak and worthless elemental things” (Gal. 4:9, 1-9) to which we enslave ourselves stops grace. Instead it sets in place two horrible traps; either a self-boasting of any progress that might occur, or a despair from the resulting failure to overcome the power of the flesh and sin. Col. 2:20-23
It can be clearly shown that submission to the 7 Universal Non-Optional Principles taught at the Basic Seminar has all of the same direct effects of submitting to the Law of Moses or to any other system of law with their demands combined with their punishments or rewards.
So What is Wrong with a “Universal, Non-Optional Principle”?
A “Principle” is the same as a Law.
Definition of PRINCIPLE
a : a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption
b (1) : a rule or code of conduct (2) : habitual devotion to right principles <a man of principle>
When a system is developed around a “Principle” or group of “Principles” they become an operating system (OS). An easy example is the OS of your computer. Every computer requires an operating system which operates on the basis of a set of “principles” or “laws,” “code” or “instructions.”
The “7 Universal Non-Optional Principles” taught by Bill Gothard should be understood as “7 Universal Non-Optional Laws” by which he promises “successful living” for believers in Christ or any other person who follows them. I do not believe he would prefer to consider them “assumptions” or mere suggestions. He might be tempted to refer to them as “doctrines” though that would put his teachings in more direct tension with the pure doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. As “Principles” it seems palatable to most of his listening audience.
To enhance the following or keeping of his 7 Universal Non-Optional Principles/Laws Bill Gothard provides a growing body of teachings to aid, to assist you in the compliance to these Laws, increasing your chances of “successful living.” For example, to attain to “moral purity” he teaches this can be achieved by anyone adhering to “7 Steps + 7 Projects.”
When a system is created around a set of laws, with their supporting formulations, rules, regulations, rewards and punishments, each local grouping and the national or world entity soon develops its own traditions and actual culture based on identifiable, recognizable community and the members of it. This system is not unlike the Talmud of the Jewish faith or the Hadiths of the Islamic faith.
Basically, we like order, prescribed ways of doing things, menus, lists, rules and regulations, systems with predictable outcomes, having others making decisions for us that we would fear making ourselves. Our human nature prefers a system where a person can pursue a program of projects and ordered steps and achieve a set of objectives. There is praise and credit due to those who persist in these plans, and usually a good number of people overseeing these cultures who will gladly and often reward those who pursue these achievements. They will as well deliver demerits to those who fail or are slacking in their dedication and disciplines. Many people would naturally gravitate to such a system, to the culture that grows around a group of people living in the same pattern, in the same manner.
The Word of God is clear about these things
By your traditions you have nullified the word of God. Matthew 15:5-8
“But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.… 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"
A Very Large Problem with Man-made Religious Laws/Principles
The Law of Moses was designed to bring death (Romans 7; Galatians 3).
Herein lies a deceptive and powerful problem. The development of man-made commandments and teachings involving a new set of rules, regulations, rewards, and punishments gives the followers, its subscribers, the false idea that they can live in conformance to the Law of Moses as they make progress with the man-made commandments that reference the Mosaic Law.
The deception of a new system of religious laws for the improvement and promised “successful living” of the Christian life is further complicated by all of the same limitations of the Law as announced by God Himself.
The Law…
Cannot make perfect those who draw near. Heb. 10:1
Was not able to take away sins. Heb. 10:4, 11
Was no basis for anyone to be justified before God. Galatians 3:11
The Law came with a warning: No one can set it aside or add conditions to it. Galatians 3:15.
Why not? What would be wrong with adding helps, aids, devices, schemes, even 7 Universal Non-Optional Principles that would help you keep the Law more completely? For this very reason: so as to not diminish its full power of bringing about the conclusion that it is impossible to keep the Law, for “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law to perform them.”(Galatians 3:10-14)
If your religious activity and programs are designed to help you comply with and keep the Law, it is designed to fail! No one can keep the Law to God’s satisfaction. That is why God introduced a better, a superior way through a living relationship with the resurrected Jesus Christ. Jesus described the problem this way, “If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” (Matthew 6:23)
One Thing Worse
There is one thing worse than building a spiritual life based on the Law of Moses along with the scores of formulas and any man-made supporting laws.
An entirely worse situation is the mixing of a system of man-made laws, standards, and principles co-mingled with God’s perfect redemption by grace through faith in the promises God has made. This co-mingling is effectively offering two opposing operating systems (OS) to those who are sincerely seeking God with their whole heart. Such mixing confuses the gospel of Christ, confuses the one seeking to know God, and produces a spiritual life without the power of God to provide actual victory over the law of sin and of death.
The Only Thing Better? The Only ONE
So, what is the solution when nearly 3,000,000 people in our churches have bought into a system of religion that offers a program for “successful living” with hundreds of references to the Scripture, and which has some obviously good things mixed in with serious weaknesses and a confusion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ… But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” II Corinthians 10:5, 11:3
We must reject any teaching of man and discard every practice of religious culture which competes with living with Jesus Christ in first place in our minds and hearts—not just prominent, but preeminent. We must stake our life and hope only upon the promise and provisions offered by God and His Son Jesus Christ, who is the only faithful one. Hebrews 10:23. We are safe to reject all invitations for us to hope in any program, device, or formula that offers a man-designed scheme to experience what God has already provided to us through the completed work and resurrected life of Christ.
Gideon of old came to his senses and realized God’s judgment was because of the worship of idols by his family and the community. Gideon took action, wrecking the idols of his father’s house and those of the community during the night. Judges 6:1-32. Even so, Gideon himself returned to idolatry later in his life, so that it became a snare to Gideon and his household. Israel soon forgot the mighty battles won by Gideon, the man of faith, and returned to their idolatry after his death. Judges 8:24-26. We do have a choice.
As individual believers and as local congregations of the church of Jesus Christ, we must return to the Preeminence of Jesus Christ, embrace the exclusive claims of Jesus Christ, and rest in the All Sufficiency offered to us by God which is in Christ Jesus alone.
Has Bill Gothard Displaced Jesus Christ?
There is ample evidence and a long history of Bill Gothard rejecting the specific teachings of Jesus Christ, displacing God’s Word with insistence that Christians must keep what are actually the “commandments and rules of man” which are “lofty things raised up against the knowledge of God” (II Cor. 10:1-6, 3) and thereby “invalidate the Word of God” (Mark 7:13, 1-23). Bill Gothard and the IBLP/ATI organizations have institutionalized these violations of the Holy Scriptures in the many organization publications sold to millions of believers in 50,000 + churches. Bill Gothard has for now 40 years rejected and/or ignored every request to convene a church Council to examine the many charges standing against him in regards to his personal behavior which disqualifies him as a minister of the Gospel, and in regards to the contrary doctrines which he promulgates.
These requests had the highest and best motivations to return this man and his organization to honoring Jesus Christ and His Word as our only authority for faith and life. The Reformation and Martin Luther sounded the call for “sola scriptura” (Scripture Only), setting many millions free from slavery to religious hierarchy, contrary doctrines and demands, making clear that all doctrine and instructions must be subordinate to the clear teachings of Scripture. Bill Gothard and the IBLP/ATI organizations have reproduced the religious hierarchy of the Dark Ages to the great and serious loss of spiritual life, fellowship, and true growth that is from God. I Corinthians 3:6
Two charts are provided that list Bill Gothard's teachings and actions versus Bible references on the same matters. Click to view the charts:
How Has Gothard Displaced the All Sufficiency and Exclusivity of Jesus Christ?
The Consequences for Those Who Displace Christ Jesus and Replace His Word
Fruits of Repentance
What is repentance that is acceptable to God the Righteous One? What are the “fruits” of genuine repentance?
Godly repentance will allow the cleansing from all unrighteousness (personally, corporately) by the Holy Spirit of God!
“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.” Matthew 3:8-10, Luke 3:8
King David prayed in repentance, “I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight” (Psalm 51:3-4).
2 Corinthians 7:9-10 reads, “Ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner...for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation.” What does God outline here as to what He is seeking? “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. For observe this very thing that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” I John 1:9. Repentance must involve bringing to an end what caused the violation(s) against God. “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13
Isaiah 55:7 declares the same requirement. “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord; and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Hebrews 12:14, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” Titus 2:11-12 expands the same admonition: “The grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.”
Lay no other foundation than Christ. I Cor. 3:11
Where ever a beam and sawdust are problematic, remove the beam first from your eye. Matt.7:1-7. In your concern for identifying and confronting bad behavior and views of life held by others that is contrary to the Scripture, consider dealing first and completely with the number of doctrines and practices which themselves may be false or questionable doctrine, extra biblical, and in direct opposition to the clear teachings of Christ. Then you will see clearly how to help others with their desire to understanding God’s Holy Word.
Study Notes: The Preeminence of Jesus Christ
The Preeminence of Jesus Christ is declared by God, “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross…” (Colossians 1:15-22).
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the Light of men.” (John 1:1-4)
Jesus Christ is the Redeemer sent from God and is God, whom we have believed, through whom we received salvation by His one-time payment, in full, for all of our sins, God promises we will avoid Hell, will be raised from our graves, and arrive safely in Heaven to live with Him forever.
It would seem our first next impulse would be to put Jesus Christ at the preeminent position, as in first place in our lives, “in everything.” Our choices too often allow the natural temptations of our flesh, the bogus offers of the world, and the devices of the Devil to crowd into the considerations of our mind and responses of our heart. The very benefits of life God has already provided and made fully available to each of His children, being contrarians or terribly ignorant, we rush out to purchase in cheap replicas and bogus copies.
We are not helped when Teachers and Preachers of “religion” make their own “spiritual promises” in exchange for your and my full, dedicated, unquestioning participation and subjection to their well-produced programs, systems for success, instructions for compliance to some mixture of the Mosaic Law and their endless and expanding personally developed laws, with occasional referrals to “God’s grace” falsely defined.
When in life you experience a need common to man, or a serious and urgent question develops, do you think first of…
- What would Bill Gothard say or do or advise?
- What are the keys to success and instructions for this situation I might find in the Basic (red notebook) or other books of wisdom Gothard has supplied?
- How can I put this situation to the authorities in my life (parents, church elders, pastor, boss at my employment, etc.) and obtain their decision for my life?
- Or…does the Scripture come to mind that draws you into a closer relationship with God our Father?
"Those who go down to the sea in ships,
Who do business on great waters;
They have seen the works of the Lord,
And His wonders in the deep.
For He spoke and raised up a stormy wind,
Which lifted up the waves of the sea.
They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
They reeled and staggered like a drunken man,
And were at their wits’ end.
Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
And He brought them out of their distresses.
He caused the storm to be still,
So that the waves of the sea were hushed.
Then they were glad because they were quiet,
So He guided them to their desired haven.
Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
Let them extol Him also in the congregation of the people,
And praise Him at the seat of the elders."
Psalm 107 is the account of four different groups of people that had made it into some serious trouble for different reasons. It describes their awful predicaments and how they arrived in their condition, the futility of their own plans, their eventual call to God for help, and a description of what God did next with each group.
What would your friends, family and neighbors say about you?
If all the people you know fairly well were interviewed about their knowledge of you, what would each of them say when asked:
“What person is he/she the most like?” “What person do they remind you of the most?”
“What cause, person or movement are they most closely associated with?”
“What person do they think like the most in life?” “What philosophy or training do they default to most often?”
When the crowds in Jerusalem observed the disciples, they were not sure what program they were a part of. But they were very clear, because it was obvious, they had a relationship with Jesus. “When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.” (Acts 4:13) How many of our family, friends, neighbors, work mates would give that answer if we surveyed each one of them? Or would they describe your relationship to a leader and movement as the most dominant feature or characteristic of your life?
Teachers and Preachers who faithfully serve Jesus Christ with a pure heart will train you to do three things:
1. Think first of how God has provided and will provide all that I need in what Jesus Christ has accomplished by His death on the cross, His burial, His resurrection, and His ascension to be with the Father, along with His many good promises for His own children. I Corinthians 1:30-21; II Peter 1:1-11.
2. Seek diligently and eagerly the wisdom of Christ in the Word of God, expecting the Holy Spirit to be your Helper, Comforter, and Teacher and to guide you into all the purposes of God for your life.
3. Gladly seek the teaching and counsel of godly men and women, being careful to inquire about their personal holiness, humility before God, and transparency about their obedience in walking with the Lord. God has established that His church will grow spiritually with a growth He provides and which He directs through each of the members of the body of Christ, the church. Ephesians 4:11-25.
A Teacher and Preacher argues against the Preeminence of Jesus Christ when they lower the standards, violate and lower the clear requirements set by God for an Elder, Overseer, Teacher, Pastor when they stubbornly reject all correction and go on sinning willfully. Hebrews 10:26-39. It is indeed “a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” The word of God clearly calls for transparency in leaders. The higher one is elevated in leadership, the more accountable they must be to a larger number of people. They live in glass houses, and all of their followers have Windex®!
This question is put into its proper priority when the Psalmist declares: “Whom have I in heaven but You? And besides You I desire nothing on earth. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” Psalm 73:25-26.
More is Written in Scripture Regarding the Preeminence of Jesus Christ
Some additional references of Scripture are listed here which will be so very helpful to study further on this most foundational truth. I trust that you will find the time and quiet place to do so.
“My message and preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom…so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men but would rest on the power of God. I Cor. 2:4-5
“No man can lay a foundation…other than…which is Jesus Christ…” But each man must be careful how he builds upon it…each man’s work will become evident…and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work…If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire…So then let no one boast in men.” I Corinthians 3:10-13
Romans 11:36
John 1:3
Ephesians 3:9
Hebrews 2:10 ff
I Corinthians 8:6
Revelation 4:11
Matthew 11:27
John 3:35
John 13:3
John 16:15a
Hebrews 1:2-3
Psalm 8:6
Ephesians 1:22
Hebrews 2:8a
Hebrews 4:13
I Corinthians 2:10
Philippians 3:21
Ephesians 1:10
Colossians 1:20
Ephesians 4:10
Philippians 2:10-11
Romans 8:32, 37
I Corinthians 3:21-23
I Corinthians 15:24-28: “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself (Jesus Christ) also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
Study Notes: The Exclusive Claims by Jesus Christ
The Exclusive Claims by Jesus Christ force a decision when He announces, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). “…all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:16-17). Jesus was clear that He, Christ, was the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life.
What can you offer that would compete with that? Why would you offer anything less and thereby hide the good news of the Gospel? II Corinthians 4:3
“Thus says the Lord, Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength and whose heart turns away from the Lord.” (Jeremiah 17:5)
“Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, ‘Listen to the word of the Lord! ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe to the foolish prophets who are following their own spirit and have seen nothing…They see falsehood and lying divination who are saying, ‘The Lord declares,’ when the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope for the fulfillment of their word.” (Ezekiel 13:1-6)
“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other. Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the Lord, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the Lord. ( Jeremiah 23:30-32)
How are the Exclusive Claims of Jesus Christ made non-exclusive?
How is the Gospel of Jesus Christ distorted by Altering, Adulterating, Adding to the Claims of Jesus Christ?
1. Elevating one’s own opinion and self-inspired teachings to equality with God’s Word. This exceptional elevation of a mere insight or philosophy of a mere man is enhanced when the teaching is accompanied by a system of rules, with rewards for achievement and punishments for a lagging effort.
2. Offering to the spiritually needy and morally failed person a program of activities, projects, self-efforts along with nifty devices for their attempt to stop the impulse to sin, all which prevents them from seeing clearly the provision of Christ Jesus who was crucified, who died and was buried, and raised again on our behalf so that sin and death would no longer have a basis for being master over us.
3. Combining self-efforts and programs in co-mingled mixtures along with references to and discussions about the grace of God and the power of God.
4. Teaching a doctrine or idea which Jesus Christ has specifically addressed and defined as not true or no longer in effect. The most common examples would include teaching that the demands and requirements of the Mosaic Law are applicable to believers in Christ, such as requiring believing men to receive circumcision as morally required, or that believers must not eat certain meats defined as unclean in the Law.
5. Building upon the foundation of faith laid down in Christ Jesus alone, adding teachings, precepts of man, commandments invented by men, persuading listeners they must subscribe to the total package of their “Christ + Program” to obtain the fullest blessing of God. I Corinthians 3:10-15
6. Introducing a program, system, or process that complicates the simple message of faith in Christ and the experience of the grace of God. The very introduction of a new set of laws, rules, processes, steps, devices, principles by which the believer is to operate his life is to supplant the indwelling Spirit of God and the clear teaching of the Scriptures on everything needed for eternal life and for a life of holiness. The circumcision of Christ on the heart of the believer is the only circumcision needed and it is utterly effective.
7. Teaching ideas that are merely “speculation” in the context of a spiritual question and the suggestion that an answer from God is being presented to give guidance they can rely upon.
8. Adulterating the Word of God, purposely twisting its meaning to support a personal idea or proposition of the Teacher which people will buy into only if they are misled to believe the Holy Word of God is teaching such an idea. Often this includes redefining words such as “grace” and “faith” to give the impression of being biblically based.
9. Presentations characterized by “persuasive words of wisdom” which move an audience to making decisions without the time or opportunity to obtain clear understanding from a proper study of the Word of Christ resulting in a changed life that will come only from the power of God working in them. I Corinthians 2:4-6
10. Introduction of a tradition, a culture of association and like behavior derived from the leader’s outline of his philosophy and doctrines which they have subscribed to, which create an unbiblical separatism from sinners (I Cor. 5:9-10) as well as separatism from other believers in Christ Jesus such as Peter and Barnabas in Galatians 2 and Diotrephes (III John 9-11). This introduction of a culture of standards, rules, regulations, compliance and punishments, which results in this unbiblical behavior cancels, “nullifies the Word of God” by the very tradition or culture created by the religious leaders. Matthew 15:6; Mark 7:13. It is one of the most damaging aspects of fundamental Christianity which spoils the opportunity to present the gospel’s good news to the world around us. This is in direct opposition to the teachings and life example of our Savior who eagerly sought out sinners and occasions to spend time with the wine bibbers and tax collectors in their homes and places of business.
11. Redefining the very terms upon which the doctrines of the Holy Scriptures rest is directly and clearly adding to the Word of God and taking away from the Word of God, all at the same time. The penalties for the Teacher are serious and out of this world! (Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:28-30). To confuse the most basic doctrines of Grace and of Faith in the Scriptures completely dismisses the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles as the Holy Spirit inspired and superintended the writing of each word. To add to that ongoing and unending promulgation of twisted meanings and conflicting interpretations of the Scriptures is to add insult to the injury of the church of Christ already well underway.
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” (Matthew 18:5-7)
12. The Chief Shepherd has called for His teachings and His claims and promises to be represented by men who prove to be examples to the flock (I Peter 5:1-11), who do not “lord it over those allotted to their charge” making sure all is done according to the will of God.Any Teacher or Preacher who will not submit to sincere and repeated requests for examination of his teachings and/or his behavior that has been brought into question, defies the clearly outlined will of God for any person who would represent themselves as teacher or minister of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. I Timothy 5:17-25; Ephesians 5:11; Matthew 18:15-18.“…and many shall follow their pernicious ways (sensuality); by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you; whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” II Peter 2:1-3.
Study Notes: The All Sufficiency of Jesus Christ
The All Sufficiency of Jesus Christ is proclaimed throughout the Scripture, “By His doing (God’s) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” I Corinthians 1:30-31.
Again, it will help to repeat the name of Jesus Christ in direct linkage to each provision He delivers to the children of God stating that “By His doing (God’s doing) you are in Christ Jesus, who, (Christ Jesus) became to us wisdom from God, and (Jesus Christ) became to us righteousness and (Jesus Christ) became to us sanctification and (Jesus Christ) became to us redemption.”
When God declared Jesus Christ as “all sufficient” for the believer in Christ, what could any Teacher offer from his own creative work or production of additional instructions from the wisdom of man and the precepts of man that could possible add to what God has already provided in Christ alone?
Followers become increasingly addicted to their Teachers and Preachers to the extent the Teacher or Preacher causes the audience to focus on the wisdom literature and instructions invented by the Teacher while reducing the audience’s reliance and trust in and exercise of walking with the Spirit of the indwelling Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9-11). A Teacher and Preacher that follow the clear teachings of the Scripture will be working to prevent you from relying upon them or their writings and production materials (which by the way are for sale in the lobby or at their website). They will rather be moving you to become spiritually mature as the outcome of experiencing the fullness of Christ along with ongoing growth as a healthy member /body part in the church, the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-16).
To develop further the perspective for considering the difference between these two types of Teachers, it is instructive to consider even a few of the hundreds of references in the Bible that explain how God is directly involved in the life and spiritual growth of His children. The Teacher and Preacher ought only to be involved as a humble servant of the Great Shepherd and like John the Baptist, understand they are not worthy to even tie or untie the sandals of the Savior. They are warned to NOT “lord it over the flock” for this very reason. As you read the following Scriptures, ask yourself if the programs, formulations and wisdom literature invented by the Teacher draw and help believers embrace the all sufficiency of Jesus Christ for spiritual life and growth, or if they are actually a hindrance, a confusion, a nullification of the very promises and grace of God.
The statements of Scripture are straightforward about God’s work in our coming to spiritual life as well as His direct work in each of our lives to develop our spiritual growth as He has in mind. Even so, we too often skip over the declaration of God’s direct hand in bringing us to life and to maturity in Christ. Because of the unusual characteristic of it being FREE, no charge, no work required, the grace of God is difficult to accept without the temptation to add what we can to the transaction so that we have contributed some effort, able to measure some merit of our own, making even some small contribution to the relationship with God. And God says “…and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one may boast.” And again, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” I Cor. 1:31
Consider our redemption, entering into the salvation offered to us by God:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” This text lists five actions credited to God. Our part? Faith, trust, reliance upon the only true and living God who has a very specific and clear plan already worked out for each of His children, including you!
Consider the outcome of the indwelling of the Spirit of God in your mortal flesh. It is called “fruit” for a reason. You cannot “do the fruit” by any human effort, they are an outcome of the working of God’s Spirit in your life.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, good ness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against such things there is not law.” Galatians 5:22-25
Study Notes: The Spirit of Jesus Christ Lives In the Believer
The most important source of life and spiritual growth for the believer in Christ is the indwelling Christ and the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ/God in each believer and in the church of Jesus Christ. When you get a good understanding of the purpose and operations of the Spirit of God that lives in your mortal body and see more plainly what the Spirit provides for you 24 hours a day, your actual interaction with the Spirit of God puts into play 100% of everything God is offering to you and all of which you need for living and for godliness. We are alive by the Spirit of God, let us also walk by the Spirit every day, 24/7.
Is Jesus Christ Sufficient for You?
This summary is a review of the Acts of God in the direct development of your spiritual life. It is a good exercise to ask yourself what religious programs, spiritual disciplines, vows, formulations of solutions from man’s precepts, what wisdom of man and human devices, what commandments of men would you hope could accomplish any of these changes in your heart and mind which God has already promised to do for you directly and personally?
Salvation by a gift of God, created in Christ Jesus Eph. 2:7-10
Peace with God Eph. 2:13-14
Reconciliation between divided groups or individuals Eph. 2:13-19
Access directly to God our Father Eph. 2:18
Elimination of all our guilt and charges against us Col. 2:12-15
Circumcision of Christ, in Him made complete Col. 2:9-12
The world is crucified to me, through Christ Gal. 6:14
I have been crucified to the world, through Christ Gal. 6:14
Made alive to God in Christ Jesus Romans 6:11
Made one with Christ Jesus, united with Him Romans 6:3-5; Eph. 4:1-6
Christ Jesus is our wisdom I Cor. 1:30
Christ Jesus is our righteousness I Cor. 1:30
Christ Jesus is our sanctification I Cor. 1:30
Christ Jesus is our redemption I Cor. 1:30
No more basis for fear of death or the Devil Hebrews 2:14-18; I John 4:17-19
No more isolation to fall to temptation I Cor. 10:13
No more basis for doubt when praying I John 5:14-15, 3:19-24; Phil. 3:15; James 1:5-8
No more basis for anxiety or worry Philippians 4:6-7
Righteousness is granted to us by God when we believe
in Him who justifies the ungodly Romans 4:1-17
Receive an abundance of grace to reign in life through Christ Romans 5:17
No longer slaves to sin, freed from sin, being raised w/ Christ Romans 6:3-10
Set free from the law of sin and death Romans 8:1-2
Confidence in the Day of Judgment I John 4:17
God of all grace will Himself make you whole I Peter 5:10
God of all grace will Himself make you secure I Peter 5:10
God of all grace will Himself make you strong I Peter 5:10
God of all grace will Himself establish you I Peter 5:10
Being fully assured that what God had promised,
He was able also to perform Romans 4:21; Hebrews 11:6
What additional basic human desire or need would you have that God cannot provide for and which some offering of a religious program or commandments of a man might be an attraction? There are many faithful Teachers and Preachers whose commitment is to explain carefully to you all of the riches of God which are yours in Christ Jesus. You can spot them easily. They are not hirelings and they are not peddling their version of the gospel to separate you from your money. They are proving day after day to be examples of holiness to the flock which they serve, humble in living a life which is above reproach in every way. I Peter 5:1-7
The Spirit of Christ Jesus/God in You
If the Spirit of God dwells in you, you are in the Spirit. If you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you do not belong to Him (yet). If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:9-10).
As a believer in Christ, God’s Spirit lives in, dwells in, inhabits your body (I Cor. 6:19-20) who also lives in the church of God (I Cor. 3:16-17).
The Spirit of God living in you works 24/7 to accomplish everything that God our Father intends for your good and for the growth of your relationship with the Father. Consider these few examples of the Spirit’s work in you.
By the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, you are set free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8:1-2
The requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us as we walk cording to the Spirit. Romans 8:4
Because we are in the Spirit, our minds are set on the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5-9
Our spirit is made alive because of the righteousness of Christ in whom we have believed. Romans 8:10
Our mortal bodies are given life through the Spirit of Christ whom God raised from the dead. Romans 8:11
By the Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds of the body. Romans 8:13
We are able to obtain leading, directions by the Spirit of God. Romans 8:14
We are freed from the spirit of slavery and of fear by the Spirit. Romans 8:15-17
God exposes us to the futility of the flesh and this world so our hope will be in God alone. Romans 8:20-25
The Spirit helps us in all of our weaknesses. Romans 8:26
The Spirit prays to God, interceding for us with great energy, for God’s will to be accomplished in us! Romans 8:26-27
God’s Spirit is always at work to help us become more like Jesus Christ. Romans 8:28-30
Jesus Christ Himself intercedes for us to the Father each day. Romans 8:34
Because of God’s continued love toward us, we can in all things overwhelmingly conquer our daily challenges. Romans 8:37-39.
Jesus said, “But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.” John 16:7-15
Now we have received…the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. I Cor. 2:12
We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
“…through whom (Jesus) also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…” Romans 5:2
“…and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore it was credited to him (Abraham) as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him (Abraham), but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him (God) who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.” Romans 4:20-25
“…because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Romans 5:5
“While we were still helpless…while we were yet sinners…while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved (made whole, made complete) by His life.” Romans 5:6, 8, 10
For by Him (Christ) all things were created…all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.” Col. 1:16-18
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so, He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself…” John 5:25-26
“For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:17
“…nor does His word dwell in you, for you do not believe the One He sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life. “I do not accept glory from human beings…” John 5:38-41
There is much more…
Consider each of the provisions of God, by God, through Christ, all for the benefit of your spiritual life, growth, and experience. Ask how you might match them or displace each one with some device or religious formula offered on the market today?
Without Me (Christ), you can do nothing. John 15:5
So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. I Cor. 2:6-7
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ…but each man must be careful how he builds on it. I Cor. 2:9-15
For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men, (the grace of God) instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age… Titus 2:11-14
“...for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him.” Romans 10:12
“…we have not ceased to pray for you that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, being fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father…” Col. 1:9-14
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us…” Eph. 3:20
“…but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works…They stumbled over the stumbling stone…for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Romans 9:30 to 10:5
Is there anything required of us who believe? “…your spiritual service of worship…” Romans 12:1-2
With spiritual life and growth of the believer caused by God, what is the believer’s duty, or responsibility, or work?
1. Be grateful. Say thanks a lot and sing songs in your heart all day long.
Consider the critical importance of a heart of thankfulness in the life of the believer.
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened…” Romans 1:21
“…giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.” Colossians 1:12-13. Be anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your request be made known to God…” Philippians 4:6-7
2. Trust, ask without any doubts about God’s capabilities and present your requests to God without any doubts about God’s intentions to bless His children with all of His riches which are in Christ Jesus.
3. Trust and Obey. The commandments of God for the believer and His church throughout the New Testament are designed to maximize the experience of the believer in their walk and communications with God the Father.
4. Prepare with great expectation and joy your meeting face to face the Lord Jesus Christ, our King, Savior, and Lord.
But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death…” Phil. 3:7-10
things right. We held it out of respect for Tony, whose careful research uncovered the scandal back in 1980. We later learned that we were perhaps being too respectful, since Tony did after all share the package with us because he suspected it would need to be published at some point in the most recent accountability process. Following the disappointing lack of response from Gothard, we have been given freedom to share.
July 31, 2024
I've come to believe that IBLP is essentially the extreme endpoint of the thought processes and logic that have defined much of the modern church: focusing on effectiveness instead of holiness through Christ, defining "success" by visible behavior and externally oriented thinking, and trying to find as much truth or be right about as much as possible at the expense of building relationships and meeting God-given needs. Identifying these issues when they manifest themselves in the concentrated doses administered by IBLP is one thing, but we still have such a long way to go in terms of addressing these problems in our mainstream, non-IBLP evangelical churches. Seeing everything laid out like this is very helpful, though.
Great foundation for looking at this matter, Tony! It points to the One Foundation, which is Jesus Christ. Yes, Bill's "principles" are laws and doctrine, in truth. I agree that he would not view them as mere suggestions, especially not with the term "non-optional" preceeding the word "principles." He adds requirements for the Christian life that God has clearly said are not binding on Christians, such as dietary laws and circumcision. He adds in many of his own notions, such as beards, and seems to put all these extra biblical requirements on par with Scripture. Then, he says if you think of God's grace as "unmerited favor" you have a "faulty definition." In Bill's view, we merit grace for sanctification as we obey God. And that includes obedience to all Bill's rules as well in his mind.
I'm a little confused. Is the package evidence from the old 1970s scandal that Tony collected and will be parceled out now? The package starts with this preamble which sets the stage then. Please clarify and thank again to RG and Tony.
Well, I believe in thethe all sufficiency of the Savior . . . and I know Bill does too. Where I get confused when reading this, and thinking I might understand where he is going, is that Scripture has SO much to say about our personal responsibility in "getting on" in the Christian life. As though Christ, being all sufficient, is now demanding that we put all our effort into seeing it done. For example: 2 Peter 1:
"5 And beside this, GIVING ALL DILIGENCE, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
As you know this section figures prominently in at least parts of ATI.
So . . . we are told that faith is not enough, but that we must diligently add to it. We are, in fact, to add godliness at one point . . . and then love.
So . . . how does this "all diligence" on our parts interact with the "all sufficiency of Christ"?
Here is another . . . tell me how this interacts with "all sufficiency":
Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
So . . . now we have SUCH a focus that we believers end up fearful . . . and trembling.
I am really curious if anyone reading will actually interact with these Scriptures . . . OR . . . as is usual, I will get platitudes and memes and marching and shouts and . . . I am still left with Scriptures that I can't get away from.
I agree, all these things are to be added, but in God's timing and plan and amount for the individual and his/her walk with Christ. Sometimes, we may not see God's working in an individual's life. We will still be looking on the outward (dress, attitude, morality) and judge that the person is lacking.
I keep wondering why would all these people, many of whom have never met, keep going after BG and accuse him of all these things. I also wonder why so many women are now coming out and accusing another Bill (Cosby) of sexual misconduct.
Alfred: the passage you quote from 2 Peter relates to the all sufficiency of Christ through verse 3 preceding: "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness ..." The things we are diligent to add come not because of our diligence to add them, but rather because God has given them all to us in Christ. In the case of Philippians 2, you quote the interaction with the all sufficiency of Christ: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." What we work out is credited to that which God has already done in Christ rather than to our own working. These are not Scriptures we try to get "away from." Rather, they are passages which challenge us to make every effort to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is always all about Him ("to whom be glory for even and ever, Amen!")
A1970s "It is always all about Him ("to whom be glory for even and ever, Amen!")" Thanks for the great reply. It is always good to be reminded about who it is always about.
I may be the last person you wanted to hear from, and I'm no biblical scholar, but I'll point out that you curiously started with verse 5 of 2 Peter 1, instead of noting the crucial foundation of verses 3 and 4, in which it's stated that a godly life is attained THROUGH our KNOWLEDGE of Jesus. Which is different from telling us to go out and DEVELOP a godly life within our own means.
I would humbly suggest that herein lies our most significant difference - one that seems subtle as we look at the words of scripture, but that in practice is critical.
You are saying that we need to add virtue to faith, and then add knowledge to virtue, and then add self-control to knowledge, and on and on. As in, we need to attain and develop these things specifically, purposefully, and deliberately. Just as I deliberately go to the store and purposefully pick out milk, eggs, and bread that I specifically need at home. When I run out of bread, I go get more bread. If I'm low on perseverance, I need to go get more.
When you read verses 5-7 on their own, they sound like commands to develop the things on the list. Go to the store and get these things. (Never mind that I don't have any currency to get them with.) But I don't think that's what is being said here, and verses 3-4 are key. AS we grow in the knowledge of Jesus and exercise (borrowing a word from the Amplified Bible) our faith, we will develop virtue. We don't have to pursue virtue as an entity. And especially not within our own means.
AS we exercise the virtue that has developed from faith, we will gain knowledge. Again - it's what will happen as a natural progression as we continue in what? The KNOWLEDGE of CHRIST.
AS we grow in knowledge, we will develop self-control, and on and on.
EVERYTHING we need can be found in Jesus Christ. We don't have to go shopping for virtue, or for anything else on the list. As we grow in the knowledge of Jesus, He will develop these things in us.
You say that we're told that "faith is not enough" and that we must add to it. I don't see where we're told that. You assume it's not enough because you assume that we must acquire (on our own power) things to add to it. Christ IS all sufficient. HE will add to our faith. Faith even as small as a mustard seed.
I can't overemphasize the difference here. If I need to add to faith, then - as I realize that I'm not good enough and never will be - I WILL end up fearful and trembling. But Jesus didn't say to come unto Him and DO anything. He said come unto Him. PERIOD. That's ALL. Then HE takes over and gives us rest, which I’ll choose over fear and trembling any day.
Yes, there are a lot of instructions and admonitions for the Christian life. I'm not saying that coming to Jesus is the end. But what He tells us to do can only be done in HIS power, not our own, and the difference is huge. And such a relief.
Elizabeth D, I love to hear what's on your mind. You have a unique perspective that looks biblical to me. Very nice response. Very good review of the big issues. Thanks for giving the crucial foundation it's proper place.
Elizabeth,
Great comment, your illustration of going shopping is perfect. I'm going to print it out and keep a copy! Thanks so much.
Your comments are always good Elizabeth, I'm always happy to read your posts.
Elizabeth D, I think of it as, when we have Jesus in our heart, He is the one who grows us in Him, and as we grow in Him, HIS character grows in us. We have NOTHING to do with it aside from having faith, which is the only thing that pleases God. Milk and meat, and all that.
Excellent post.
Alfred,
I won't add anything further to Elizabeth's already excellent analysis of this passage from which you curiously cherry-picked a seemingly "IBLP-friendly" portion and divorced it from its context, as per usual. But I will say that if you're interested in actual Biblical analysis that removes the blinders your friend has conditioned you to depend on, all you have to do is read the replies to your comments on here.
And if you do want to see "platitudes and memes and marching and shouts," find the nearest mirror and take a long, hard look.
Thanks, esbee, "notebook" . . . I think that was good. Elizabeth: What does "giving ALL diligence" and "fear and trembling" mean to you? Sounds like some serious effort. I just want you to acknowledge that once we have received the free gift of grace, we are then expected to "get busy" with the rest of our lives. That is joyful "diligence", but it is still hard work.
J.B.: If you think I divorced it from the context . . . go for it . . . straighten me out. Don't think I did. Forget Bill for a moment . . . let's deal with the passage (since Bill's connection to all of this is not at all clear in the OP . . . just assuming that he doesn't think Jesus is all sufficient? WHY is this assumed?)
It's assumed Alfred because that is what Bill has taught for 40 years.
Alfred, I don't have to tell you how you divorced this passage from the rest of the verses that preceded it when two people on this thread have already pointed this out to you. I could go into a lengthy discussion about how the modern church, IBLP included, imposes Western ideals about diligence, fear, and trembling on an ancient text. I could talk about how your penchant for building your theology around a certain interpretation of a certain passage and trying to shoehorn everything else in Scripture to make everything align with that interpretation is foolish eisegesis compared to studying a passage in Scripture in light of what other passages say. But based on your previous responses throughout the last few years on here, I don't think trying to reason with someone who listens only to respond and not to understand is going to be very productive at all.
And if you really have to ask why we "assume" Bill doesn't think Jesus is all-sufficient, clearly you haven't taken that long look in the mirror, at least over the past two hours. You have clearly become so dependent on IBLP instead of Christ that you don't even realize the idol of self-reliance that you have constructed for yourself. It's what makes IBLP what it is. If Bill really thought that Jesus was all-sufficient, he wouldn't need to build an entire "new way of life" and abuse people into submitting to a set of extra-biblical, "non-optional" regulations that he himself failed to keep.
Alfred, you asked what "giving all diligence" and "fear and trembling" mean to me. I will tell you what they mean to me, but I'd also defer to someone more scholarly to give an even better answer.
First, "giving all diligence" (your translation) indicates an eagerness to do something. To "make every effort" (my translation) to confirm our calling is to come to a deeper realization of who we are in Christ. Joyful diligence, sure, but I'd disagree that it's hard work, and I'd have to call foul if you said it was required in any way for our salvation.
Second, I didn't really mention it, but I hope it was obvious that when I spoke of "fear and trembling" in my last post, I was mirroring what I felt you were saying, as in a sense of hopelessness and unworthiness. As in if I'm not good enough, I have reason to fear and tremble in the presence of a holy God. But what you asked was about the phrase as it's used in Philippians 2:12, which I understand to mean a sense of reverence, humility, respect, and awe. To press toward the goal of Christlikeness respectfully and carefully, with deliberate dependence on God to guide us. Again - I'll disagree that it's hard work when you understand it's not OUR work to be done, but that Jesus has DONE absolutely everything required for our salvation, and that whatever work is to be done now is really Him working through us. We CAN work, but anything we do in our own power is useless.
There's "work" required for salvation. There is no get-out-of-hell-free card and there are no balance scales to weigh our goodness against our badness. Salvation comes at an extremely high cost. But absolutely EVERYTHING required for our salvation was finished a long time ago, as Jesus stated "it is finished" on the cross. Jesus' own righteousness is amazingly imputed to us by grace through faith. (Have you heard Lauren Daigle's song, "How Can it Be?" - grabs me every time I hear it on the radio, btw.)
And then there's "work" not related to salvation. Anything done in our own power is useless, whereas whatever we allow Jesus to do through us has lasting value. And here's another point we diverge. Where you talk of "serious effort" and getting "busy with the rest of our lives," I'm thinking that is where you insert the (non-optional) principles and the (higher) standards and the (never-ending) lists and rules that you've been taught. Things to DO. Things to NOT do. Appearances and countenances to project. Standards to uphold that people are reportedly drawn to. I hate to break it to you, but people that don't know Jesus are repelled, NOT attracted by do-gooders, and they're revolted by "higher standards." Let that sink in. I know it's contrary to what's been drilled in you, but it's the God's-honest truth. You might know that if you associated with them instead of following Bill's instructions to have nothing to do with them. (I know I don't actually know you, but I use "you" broadly here. You can decide if the shoe fits or not.)
Where you start with the principles and standards and such, I believe what Jesus wants most is for us to know Him. He says it over and over and over. As we get to know Him, He will give us the resources and the gifts He wants us to have to carry out HIS work. He will love others through us. I said that people that don't know Jesus are repelled by do-gooders, but they're intrigued by and attracted to genuine love ... the non-judgmental, no expectations, sacrificial kind.
Really - how many reasons do you want that your teacher is a false teacher? One teacher says come out and be separate, and the teacher that cared so much about me that he DIED for me ate with tax collectors, conversed with the fallen (even women!), and even sought out sinners. Do you still not sense any dissonance here, my friend??
You want me to acknowledge that once we have received the free gift of grace, we are then expected to "get busy" with the rest of our lives? Okay, sure. But the "expectations" (if you wanna call them that) that I sense are loving and forgiving, not harsh and rigid. Small differences in words, but huge differences in reality.
And may I ask a question of you, Alfred - what does it mean to YOU when Jesus says, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light"?
Elizabeth D, it looks like a labor of love. How do you continue to have such patience and kindness? I'm sure this is a help to many.
Sorry, that one paragraph about the teachers isn't written like I meant it to be. BOTH teachers say to come out and be separate - my bad, I didn't say that correctly at all. One means to not associate with "sinners" or to be "contaminated" by the world while the other set an example of associating with the most scandalous of "sinners," yet instructs us that we can be recognizably different right there alongside them. He gives us the courage to BE different and ACT differently from the world, but doesn't call us to stay to ourselves or look on others in a way that comes across as judgmental.
Not that it matters, but this is precisely why I'm a fan of public schools and colleges. Not to detract from some fine Christian institutions, but I'm a huge fan of Christians being salt and light in these local mission fields.
And in my haste, I also forgot to say thanks for some awfully nice comments. Thank you, friends!
And Guy, yes, I think that's what it is. Patience and kindness? Certainly not on my own, I'll guarantee you that!! :D
Elizabeth, I love reading what you write. Thank you.
You ask us to forget Bill for a moment-----we can't because you keep bringing him up. And besides he is the cause of having to have Recovering Grace in the first place.
Alfred, you state you believe in the all suffiency of the Saviour and that you know "Bill does too", then you immediately contradict yourself with "Christ Plus": a whole list of additional nonBiblical, false, BG cult teaching through the misuse of what the Holy Scripture actually says and teaches (as revealed beautifully by others).
Christ alone is just that. You can't have it both ways. As soon as you add anything that sinful man can bring to the table, you no longer have Christ alone and His fully paid suffiency.
Even our faith is a gift from God. I know you can't stand the truth that it is not up to you Alfred, but be thankful that it is not. Your believed version of works-based, legalist standing with God is false. You can NOT have "nonoptional principles" and say you believe in Christ alone. It's mindbogling to me that someone with your intelligence could ever fall for a supposed Christian teacher who preaches "nonoptional principles to a successful Christian life". The whole concept is the opposite of Christ alone.
The Lord opened Tony's eyes and heart to truth, which he beautifully describes in these writings, all while referencing the correct Biblical foundation for these Gospel truths. I pray that the Lord will enable you (and me and all of us) to read his Holy Word as He intended it to be read.
Even our faith is a gift from God.
I know you can't stand the truth that it is not up to you Alfred, but be thankful that it is not.
Your believed version of works-based, legalist standing with God is false.
---> You can NOT have "nonoptional principles" and say you believe in Christ alone. <---
~~
This. All this. Absolutely this. And sit and ponder that last sentence until it turns your stomach to consider all that has been "added" to the completed work of Christ by false teachers.
Thank you, NotAlfred
Thanks for the comments. Sometime go back and just read the sections I posted. I think you will find that you don't really understand them. Meaning, after knocking yourself over telling me what "work out your own salvation" can't mean . . . And shouting truths and platitudes . . . You are still left with a weird feeling that those sections really should have been written differently, or left out of the Bible. Am I right? Just like this from James:
James 2:20-24
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
If we have clear Scripture on one hand that faith plus nothing is enough . . . And then other Scripture that tells us that we better add works to faith, work out salvation "or else" . . . Either we have a confused Bible, or, maybe, we need to wake up to the fact that maybe we don't really understand faith, at least how it applies to Christian life after we are saved. Resist the temptation to throw Galatians at me and again tell me what this can't mean. Tell me what it DOES mean. Why is it there? What impact have these Scriptures had in your life? If none or not much . . . Why?
To attempt a crude paraphrase of the Savior's words in Matt. 12:7: "If he had known what this meaneth, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26), ye would not have condemned the guiltless." Zeal in truth is no substitute for balance and accuracy. Just ask the Pharisees.
Moderators, readers, Alfred.
That last paragraph is surely nothing but mischievous trolling. In Matthew 12:7 Jesus quotes, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice'. This is almost exactly opposite in meaning to the words Alfred purports to put in Jesus's mouth.
Alfred will surely protest his sincerity and innocence and do all the other things we are used to him doing, and once again the effect will be that he hijacks the conversation. I, for one, would really like this to stop. This website is called Recovering Grace, not Rebutting Alfred Again And Again And Again And Again.
Maybe the moderators could limit Alfred's posting? Maybe commenters could stop responding to him? Alfred, maybe you could start your own blog and do the work of building your own audience?
Without devaluing the excellent things you wrote yesterday and today, Elizabeth D, I'm convinced these exchanges with Mr Corduan have long outgrown their usefulness.
Yeah. What he said.
I did suggest that Alfred start his own blog in support of what he believes.
To quote Jester Hairston.....A.a.a.amen, a.a.a.amen,, A_MEN,A-MEN, A-MEN It's time to stop responding to Alfred and he doesn't really have anything uplifting to add anyway.
I actually logged on to say that I was helped a lot by an old post in which MatthewS linked to previous threads involving Alfred. I was going to suggest we do this whenever we get sidetracked by him. As a new reader, it helped me a lot to realize that Alfred has been arguing on the Internet for at least 10 years.
Alfred, as a person, what is your purpose on this site?
Re: Becoming Free and narcissism
I identify with the struggle to cope with the mental and emotional damage from the narcissists in my life. I found a relevant article about narcissism, and I recommend to anyone who has to face this issue in relationships. The author of the article is John O'Donoghue, accomplished marriage and family therapist located in Raleigh, NC.
http://www.johnodonoghuetherapy.com/narcissism/
No, Alfred. I'm left with a "weird feeling" that you really don't understand those sections. Honestly, I feel so sorry for you. You've taken passages of Scripture that are meant to be encouragements and admonitions toward spiritual growth (if you want an answer to your "why" question, there's mine, plain and simple) and added the burden of "or else" onto them. And in doing so, you've effectively cast aside the work of the Holy Spirit and the timetable within which he works to accomplish His will and timing in people's lives so it can be superseded by your friend's laws and your own timetable. I suppose this is the epitome of what IBLP does in people's lives: taking the easy yoke and light burden that Christ offers and piling more and more bondage.
You can continue to try to play this game of dancing around verses and making them say what you want to say. After all, you just literally did this by inserting your own words into Matthew 12:7. You even asked us not to "throw" verses at you that you don't want to hear. If that isn't the height of hubris with respect to Biblical eisegesis, I don't know what is. But in the meantime, I'm going to set that aside try to probe into the deeper issues here - the ones you don't seem to want to look at.
I didn't use the term "bondage" lightly above. You've developed such an addiction to making your life as difficult as possible that you can't help yourself. You keep returning to this website and other discussion venues with people to seek out validation in the most twisted of ways: by feeding off disagreement and dissension. Can't you see how unhealthy this is? It's almost as if you're afraid of what life could be like without IBLP. If everything's not difficult, if you're not being "reviled" - something must be wrong, and you return to the endless hamster wheel of moralism to feel more spiritually mature and set yourself above those who are "lesser." But I'm not convinced that lawlessness is limited to the outward actions on which you like to focus and doesn't encompass the state of one's heart, including the notion that we are capable of keeping the Law.
Word.
Thank you, J.B. I like your last paragraph. I've recently felt the same way at the job. For 14 months ending over 11 years ago I worked in a very busy environment, with a narcissist as my boss. She 'beat me up' and said 'it's your fault' for failing to compress the huge quantity of work into the normal workday. Despite my repeated attempts to say it was too much work for one person, no coworker assistance was allowed and no overtime was allowed. (A coworker in whom I confided said I was being set up to fail, and several years later I realized the truth of that person’s statement.)
In today’s world I’m again in a very busy environment, reporting to an encourager who understands and allows overtime (partly needed because I’m helping cover for a coworker who’s been on medical leave for over 5 months). When I miss doing something because of the volume of work, she’s like “that’s ok – it’s good that it’s done now”, and gives no criticism. My (internal) reaction more than once has been, “Why aren’t you beating me up like my boss 11 years ago did? I deserve it – I messed up!” (PS. I was raised in an abusive environment by a narcissist.)
For Alfred to have lived under the IBLP system for 41 years, that’s certainly longer than 14 months, so I can understand that he likely would be afraid of giving up what’s familiar.
Thank you, Jeff and Brumby – I like what you said.
PS to all – The discussion a few weeks ago on grace and that it’s all about what Jesus has done, not what we have to do (a conversation which is continuing), was very freeing. Thank you for what was shared.
Thanks, BF.
I know I may sound really harsh toward Alfred, but the truth is, I'm also concerned about his well-being because I've been in his shoes at one point - and to a large extent, I'm still shedding layers and layers of narcissistic tendencies built up by a childhood immersed in IBLP.
I'm only in my 20s, so I can't even imagine what it must be like to be in such a behavior-focused, cult-like environment for the better part of four decades. But no matter the circumstances, the stories shared here on RG in conjunction with IBLP's own materials have revealed just how narrative-driven the IBLP culture is. This isn't just about the anecdotes Bill shares at seminars or the families featured on the stages. It's a much deeper problem where words are redefined, and nearly every part of Christ's redemptive story told in Scripture has been given the historical revisionist treatment, like the account of the Pharisees, such that Bill's "new way of life" is not only justified, but upheld as the standard that the heathen outsiders fail to attain.
Every possible objection ("You're a legalist," "You lack grace," etc.) can be anticipated and assigned a response when the operational definitions of words like "legalist" and "grace" are completely changed. On top of that, the subtle conflation of equating Bill's Biblical hermeneutics with the Bible itself discourages the IBLP faithful from ever making a distinction between the two. This is what's so dangerous about IBLP, and why I keep stressing to Alfred just how pathological his behavior is. If we're not being honest with ourselves about why we do what we do, we'll be less inclined to examine the "blind spots" (if I may use Bill-speak) we don't want to touch and see just how much we've bought into the narrative of someone other than Christ.
Along with that, I'm also concerned about the people who frequent this website and see Alfred dissecting the accounts shared on here. I mentioned in another thread a few months ago that I've got a friend who grew up in IBLP and now struggles with depression. She frequents the articles on RG, but never comments - yet she knows about Alfred and even mentioned him in a conversation we had. I still don't think Alfred grasps just how difficult it is for the women who have stepped forward to do so, especially when his responses to them have contributed to that anxiety. But, once again, this is what happens when one buys into narratives establishing bogus correlation-causation relationships between sin and depression or sin and not having a bright-enough countenance. Everyone is simply reduced to machines who must work or be discarded if faulty.
I thank all for a great conversation. I am confident that Elizabeth has given a full response to Alfred's challenge. I would add this, on the chance that Alfred, despite his earthly maturity, is truly confused by any apparent contradiction in the Scriptures (making him afraid to deal with Galatians):
Alfred, I greatly fear that when you read these words:
virtue,
temperance, and
godliness,
that you (and Bill, since you share his views) read into these words an unbiblical content such as what to eat, what to drink, what parts of your body or hair to cut off, when to have sexual relations, prohibitions, etc., matters of the flesh and rules of the world as described in Colossians 2:21-23. It seems to me the doctrine of the apostles really challenges believers to understand that, in Christ, virtue, temperance and godliness are found in formation of the attitude described in Philippians 2:1-11. Thus, grace is not the power to do the works in the flesh of the law, but the power to have the tender and compassionate heart of Christ. This is a result of our being transformed into His likeness, with ever increasing glory which comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. His work in us. Diligence? Diligently yield to this work of His by faith. Enter into His Rest. Diligently persuade others to receive the Gift of Grace.
These then from Peter's list:
knowledge,
patience,
brotherly kindness, and
charity,
sharply distinguish the man in the Spirit from the Pharisee in the flesh. Neither the Pharisee nor the spiritual man will be found drunk, fornicating, stealing or blaspheming with his mouth. But one will be fighting in the flesh to repress and suppress these temptations, evaluating self and others from a human point of view, putting confidence in the flesh and in their own works. The other--knowing that all his righteousness is as filthy rags and that the works of the law are death--will be free, having died to the flesh, being alive in the Spirit, loving God and kindly loving all men and women. Patiently entreating, not putting any burden on anyone except to abandon their own efforts and to receive the completed work of Christ by faith. Walk in the Spirit (not the Law) and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
But if you are not truly confused, but you are rejecting the Grace of God because you cannot read the Scripture without those principles of Bill that you have been taught to read into it, I grieve for you. The whole counsel of God is good and trustworthy. Everything else is fit and fitting for destruction.
I could easily take offense at your words, Alfred, but to my own surprise, I really don't. Did I shout truths and platitudes? I don't think I shouted anything, even metaphorically. I've said plenty of times already that I'm no scholar, and pretty plain-spoken. I don't speak in platitudes. If you prefer to disagree, that's fine.
You asked if you're right when you assume that I have a weird feeling that the Bible should have been written differently? No, my friend, you are dead wrong (no offense). Scripture is inspired and inerrant. If you'd asked if there are portions of scripture I don't understand, I'd surely agree with you, but whether I understand something is entirely irrelevant to truth. I don't understand how planes fly. But they do, and I have no problem with them doing so. I even occasionally entrust my life to the fact that they do.
Sometimes I wish things were stated a little plainer in scripture. But who am I? And who am I compared to an omniscient and sovereign God? He knew exactly what He was doing when he put those words and books together. Combine that thought with how much He loves us, and we have to conclude that what He has done and how He has done it has been for our good. You won't catch me complaining about what God chooses to do. Questioning, yes, I'm afraid, but confident in His sovereignty. God is FOR us. He demonstrated this by His ultimate gift. Your disciplinarian view of God (as evidenced by your use of the phrase "or else") is cheating you out of a blissful relationship.
God can't contradict Himself. So if He is the author of scripture, He doesn't contradict Himself via James vs. Paul. The confusion is your own.
I tried to say before, and now Don has done a much better job than I possibly can to say that the "works" by which we are justified are not works OF LAW, but works that RESULT from faith. I think James was saying that one can't just say that they have faith and expect a statement of such to save them. Point being that there's no actual faith there. He said that a person with actual faith **will have deeds to show for it**. He didn't say that a person with actual faith **has to live by a set of rules**, Mosaic or fabricated, to produce works.
I can never think of an adequate analogy, but it's a little like saying I have a pear tree in my yard. You don't have to take my word to know whether it's a real one or a fake one. All you have to do is look at the tree itself. If the pear tree's real, it *will* soak up sunshine, water, and other nutrients. It'll grow and produce leaves, blossoms, and pears. It will sway in the wind, be climbed by cats and squirrels, host bird families, lose malnourished branches, shed leaves, and all the things that pear trees do. If I have an artificial tree in my yard, it won't do any of the things pear trees do except look nice and sway a little; it'll basically just sit there and look similar, but never as beautiful as an actual pear tree. It'll never germinate any other trees, either, and will eventually rot.
Real pear trees, changing appearance through the seasons, bear actual, sweet, and nutritious pears that are enjoyed by their people. There are little ones, big ones, ones with more or less fruit, ones more or less weather-worn, and so forth. But they're real and they all do what pear trees do, to whatever extent they are able. But for a fake tree, its owner has to go to a bunch of trouble to go find fake pears to make his tree look like it's productive. Not only is his effort wasted, but his pears aren't even real; they're useless, and going to rot eventually, too.
Now here's the thing, Alfred. I'm not saying your pear tree is fake. But even with a real tree in your yard that just wants to soak up the sunshine and nutrients and bear its own fruit, you can still go out and get some fake pears to hang all over it to make it look "better." Just as that effort would be pointless, so are efforts to live by the law. Let the tree be a tree and produce what it will.
Faith that is real will produce works. We don't have to produce works to prove our faith. But what I hope you can one day wrap your head around is that "works" and "keeping the law" are NOT nearly the same.
I've tried to answer your questions, at least to the extent that I can even understand what you're trying to say. In spite of an invitation for you to refrain from posting, I'd welcome a response to the question about the easy yoke and light burden.
~~
Jeff - I understand and actually agree with you more than not. I hope you'll indulge this response that was already in progress before your request. Often I'm inclined to walk away, and have in fact not responded to a few garbage trucks that I've seen pass by. Whether I'm sucked in maliciously or providentially I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to reach out to someone that I can - at least in a small way - relate to in that he's been not only duped, but also used by a master manipulator. I think my compulsion to reply today has been in response to what I perceive as genuine confusion and inner discord.
I join Lindsey and others in praying for our friend.
Just so it's clear, Elizabeth, I think what you are writing is fantastic. The grace with which people respond to Alfred as a whole is testament to people taking to heart the recovering of grace. I may just be cynical, but I don't see any indication in what Alfred writes that he is in any way open to what people have to say to him. As J.B. wrote above, he seems to thrive on the negative attention. This is my own opinion. I have no connection with Recovering Grace other than the comments which I have posted.
Sometimes, I think Alfred's secret purpose might be to inspire us to encourage each other with awesome posts like this. :)
Thank you Elizabeth. We should also be praying for his wife.
Thank you all again. There is no way for me to respond to all the pointed and heartfelt comments.
Someone asked WHY I hang around here. It is because I am ATI and have been affected and influenced as much as anyone here. Exactly 41 years, for the person that posted that fact. I find a need to try to understand why people who have walked with me, or at least walked the same path, have come to such a different conclusion. Some things I understand, can relate to . . . Much baffles me.
Like this matter. I am pretty sure nobody that has responded can hear me. A series of responses kick in. Everything I said is completely consistent with the passages noted. I see Elizabeth trying the hardest . . . With most everyone else saying "what she said". She appeared - to me - to freely acknowledge that she really doesn't know. About "all diligence", for example. "Joyful diligence?" I have no problem with that. Still no way around "put in serious, focused effort". Everything she said seemed to steer away from "Work really, really hard - joyfully - to add virtue to your faith". But here is NO way around the fact that this is exactly what it SAYS. That is the opposite balance to "let go and let God". Meaning - there is a clear responsibility here that God is not going to do, that He holds us accountable for.
Rest in Jesus? Here is what Hebrews says:
Hebrews 4:11
"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." The Greek word for "labor" is σπουδάζω (spoudazō); "to use speed, i.e. to make effort, be prompt or earnest: — do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study." Same word "diligence" here:
2 Peter 1:10
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall". This is most definitely aimed at believers . . . And there is a risk if we don't.
Phil. 2 does indeed state that "God worketh in you to will and to do". There it is! That is Bill's grace - desire and power! Which means we "let go and let God"? No, we have to see to it that we work it out with fear and trembling. WHY trembling? WHAT gives fear? I have no problem with "awe" . . . That makes us shake at times. What is so awesome that gets us that focused as we - not God - are "working it out"?
Here is how Paul put it. Whatever you think I mean with grace, it is best expressed here, so take a second and try to understand what I am reading before hurling more stuff at me:
1 Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
There it is again! God's grace working in him furiously, which caused him to work furiously, to the point of exhaustion and literal death at times . . . Maybe a bit of trembling. Was he some kind of robot? Did he "Let go and let God" travel from city to city, preaching repeatedly, counseling . . . Furiously studying his Bible, beating his own body to bring it into subjection so he would not miss out on a thing, eschewing marriage - meaning subjecting himself to temptations he warns about to the unmarried, ending up in a squalid prison for years and then death by beheading so he could win a few more souls? No . . . That was him, "giving all diligence" to work out his own salvation being worked in him by God's grace.
Was "Christ sufficient" for Paul? How can you tell? Whatever that meant to him, that is what it means to me. Does that perspective and its affects on his life mesh with the perspective in the OP? If so, I am all in.
Some - not Gothard friendly - have told me that I remind them a lot of Tony "back in the day". I took it as a compliment. Tony doesn't fit the mold, he doesn't conform to peer pressure even if he is alone . . . And he doesn't give up if he knows it is true, this after 40 years. THAT is exactly why I keep coming back here.
Alfred, Thank you very much for your reply. It helps me to understand why you come to this website.
I will post more later when I have time, but first I would like to suggest a couple of things that I hope will help us in our dialogue.
You probably don't intend it all, but it can be off-putting to hear words like "nobody that has responded can hear me," "a series of responses kicks in," or "hurling more stuff at me."
When we use language like this, it makes it more difficult to have a dialogue. I think a lot of people on this site genuinely care about you, but using certain words unintentionally creates an adversarial relationship.
Also, it is possible for people to "hear" you without agreeing with you.
I don't think anyone on here posts because "certain responses are kicking in." For example, I have been thinking about these matters all my life. So have you and Elizabeth. Most of us have decades of study and experience under our belts, and I think it is important to acknowledge that.
All of this goes for me, too, of course. I acknowledge that you care deeply about your faith and family. I really am praying for you and your family.
Thanks, Lindsey, for your kind and encouraging words. You will have to accept that, as almost the lone Bill Gothard supporter on this website, I have "been through the mill" a few times. When we spin around for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time on a topic I am bracing myself for a repeat. For example, EVERY time the topic of "grace" comes up - or in this case, the "sufficiency of Christ" - I know I will post my concerns . . . and I will be rewarded with chants and pithy quotes and shouting and outright reviling - me, the Judaeizer, the Pharisee - because I see some balance to some of the platitudes that are provided which I can't ignore. As in the comments above. I have no such track record with you . . . and I am genuinely grateful for your treatment of me, and even your praying for me and my family. That would be a "blessing", a contrast to what I often endure. It is much appreciated.
Good verses, Alfred. Now read them without the Bill-works you read into them. We looked at Hebrews 4 today in my Bible Study and I thought of you and your bafflement. Hear the Word of the Lord:
"So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience." Rest from your works, Alfred, enter in. What was their disobedience that kept them out? Was it not keeping the law? They were circumcised, the generation that entered Canaan was not. Was it not giving to the poor? They shared with one another just fine. Was it sowing to the flesh? No. The orgies ended pretty early in the story. It is right there in Heb. 4. Hear the Word of the Lord:
"For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest".
Alfred, it is very clear and simple to anyone who will listen: Their disobedience was disbelief, unbelief. Remember how they handled the reports of the spies? They responded in fear, not faith. That unbelief kept them out of Canaan. Caleb and Joshua did not even circumcise their sons but they believed and entered into Canaan. Believe, receive, enter in. If you do, I have no doubt that good works (of Christ, not Alfred) will flow like rivers of water out of your thankful heart. As others have affirmed, the work of God is to believe on the One Whom God has sent. Apply your diligence to that and you will not be ashamed.
Alfred, if you will look at all the discussions, we have tried to harmonize all the diverse scriptures into a cohesive whole. You, on the other hand are the one who rejects entire books (Galatians) and ignores the Scriptures we appeal to. When you state a verse, we respond with context. When we state a verse, you demand that we look at something else. My last appeal is to this: NOT of works, lest any man should boast. Alfred, you appear to boast in your works, none of which we disrespect, but you strongly refuse to enter into His rest by faith. I fear for your soul.
Thanks, Don.
Now let's spin around and take another look. "Rest from your works, Alfred, enter in." OK . . . our example is the children of Israel. Tell me . . . WHEN did they rest from their works? What day was that, when the battle was won, all enemies subdued, they lived in rest and peace? That is what we want . . . rest from labor, rest from fighting . . . to enjoy the victory Jesus has secured for us. WHEN did this event occur for the children of Israel, not more fighting?
Sorry, Alfred, I missed this comment. Obviously, the N.T. is saying that the promise to enter in, stated in Psalms 95, written hundreds of years after Joshua, was NOT about that generation but about ours. If you think the pattern to follow is the Jews in Canaan, why aren't you worshipping in a tabernacle and sacrificing bulls and goats? Oh, because Jesus already supplanted that? Well on what basis do you not see Him supplanting the rest of the law, by fulfilling it and satisfying its just demand for the death of all those who break the law?
Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Thank you Jesus, and would you please invite Alfred as well? He seems to think he has a lot to do to earn that rest.
Alfred,
I’m really glad to hear you say this. If that truly is your desire, then I truly believe most of us on here are more than glad to walk with you in that regard. But if you really want to understand why people who have been in your shoes have come to a different conclusion, please at least try to put yourself in their shoes. This means doing much more than simply reading comments on RG (or elsewhere) so you can respond with a rebuttal, especially when you’re dealing with people in a fragile emotional state. It involves being willing to take the Gothard Glasses off and look at Scripture from a more holistic, context-sensitive point of view. It involves showing deference to people who have been hurt instead of deflecting and positioning yourself as the victim. And it involves being willing to hear answers to your questions that you may not necessarily want to hear.
Regardless of how you choose to characterize them, I think one of the reasons why you’ve received as many responses as you have is not only because your comments obviously stand out on this forum, but also because many of us have been you at some point and just want to encourage you to approach this from a different angle. We’ve held your point of view, we’ve read the passages you like to quote, and - if I may extend the glasses analogy further - we’ve interpreted them through the prescription lens your friend gave us at the “checkups” that were the seminars. So really, there is no need to belabor what we have both heard. (Again, for clarification’s sake: I’m not referring to the Scriptures themselves here, just what Bill likes to glean from them.) We’ve all been there.
If these discussions are actually going to go anywhere, then the burden falls on you to do what most everyone else here has already done: be willing to see a different Doctor (capitalization intended) and open to the possibility of a different prescription lens. Perhaps you may ultimately choose to return to your original doctor in the end. But at least you can say that you’ve been through that process - and perhaps most critically, you’ve done so without the assistance of your original prescription lens. It can be really frustrating to read comments about how everyone “hurls stuff” at you when you yourself make a habit of doing this without being willing to take a step toward everyone else and engage in that same process.
Since I can really only speak for myself, much of the reason why my own comments haven’t delved into the nitty-gritty concerning the verses and passages you post is because I don’t believe that engaging with you on this level is going to get either one of us anywhere - and other people who have studied the Bible much longer than I’ve been alive have offered you more substantial answers concerning those passages. You’ve been so ingrained in a culture that has made the redefinitions of words and the revision of Biblical history such standard procedure that when everything is pieced together, it seems to fit when viewed through that specific lens. But so much has to be twisted and redefined to make it all work. Think of it this way: how often do you find yourself limiting your exegesis and saying, “Just look at what it SAYS!” when talking about verses and passages that seem IBLP-friendly on the surface while having to resort to Scriptural mangling and intense scrutiny of the other nuggets of truth in the Bible just to reconcile it all? Or, as Don just brought up, outright rejection of what you don’t want to hear?
What concerns me the most when reading your comments is that the mangling and twisting of word definitions and Scriptural passages have become so normal for you that you can’t see just how much of a deviation it really is. IBLP has built up such a cognitive bias in your mind through decades of reinforcement that you don’t even see that it exists now. You’ve invested so much time and energy into the program that acknowledging that God is ultimately bigger than one ministry and your experience in it - and that IBLP is ultimately not indispensable - is practically unthinkable to you. Your friend knows this. He’s built this into the narrative by painting God with very mercurial strokes, focusing on the consequences of refusing to comply with the extra-Biblical “new way of life,” and reinforcing “When We See Christ” as a key message so that you can feel vindicated whenever you’re “persecuted” by people who think differently.
There's some truth in what you say. But much like Bill, in order to correct what you perceive as imbalances, you seem to have "folded the paper in the opposite direction to make it straight again" so much that your approach is now just as imbalanced as what you deemed worthy of correction.
Thanks, J.B. I am someone far less concerned with the definitions of others than you think. I have examined what Bill has taught and I have, with minor variations, accepted it, lived it, proven it. So . . . when you deal with definitions that trouble you, deal with me, not with Bill. I like to be taken seriously. As do you. Imagine me as someone about as fundamentally evangelical as you can imagine. I exist happily in one of the more conservative groups around (the Plymouth Brethren hate to be called a "denomination", existing in part in opposition to that type of notion). Our local group preaches the Gospel at the Pacific Garden Mission at least once, usually twice a week . . . when it comes to the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, the inability of the law to save and, in fact, a hard division between "Jew" and "Christian" in the Bible, along the lines of dispensationalism which we practically invented - you will find I am about as "orthodox" and, well, conservative, as they come.
So . . . try to hear ME a tad too. Every time I make a point I get rejected because "it sounds like Gothard". Mind closed, case closed. That stinks. THAT is why these Scriptures matter a great deal. No, I am not going to accept platitudes and general waves of the hand in deference to "what everybody believes". I believe every believer is responsible before God to "search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things are so." I will not hide behind Gothard, and I expect others to not hide behind other important people.
Since I can't weem to reply directly to Alfred's latest thing to JB I guess I'll use this and see if it goes to the right place. Alfred, I've mentioned this before. You admit to being Plymouth Brethren. So do I but I can tell you that our group here is not anything like what you seem to espouse on RG. So the one thing I have the most trouble with as far as IBLP and Gothard is his comments on the Lord's Supper. I don't have my Advanced Seminar book anymore so I can't tell you the page number but I think it's somewhere in the 200s. I might be wrong. I read several years ago on a web site - maybe Midwest Research or something - that he said that a wife's menstrual period should remind her husband fo the shed blood of Christ. That is not a direct quote but it's very close. i, frankly, didn't believe it but with the page number supplied I looked it up in my book (which I still had at the time). And there it was written in my own handwriting (in the copious blank lines made available in the book) the exact words that I had read online. That was enough for me without all the other things to make me see that Bill Gothard didn't understand the blood of Christ at all. Isaiah says that " all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags". I have read and heard that the meaning of the filthy rags is referring to menstrual cloths. In the days before sanitary napkins all women had to use rags or something like that. My own mother told me that she had to use rags and they had to wash them out by hand to reuse. So why would any man want that to be a reminder to him of the blood of Christ shed on the cross. This came from an unmarried man who theoretically should never have seen that kind of blood so how would he know. The Scripture doesn't say anything like that. So where did he get this unholy idea? It's disgusting to think that menstrual blood should be used to refer to Christ's blood. Bill Gothard was obsessed with women, sex and anything related to it. Up until I read this I was willing to give him a pass on some things but that did it for me and revolted my husband as well.
We remember the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection every Sunday morning (doesn't have to be morning but that's what we do) and the blood of Christ is called precious in the Scripture. And it's precious to me. So don't even try to justify this thought from BG. If someone in our meeting got up and proposed such an idea I think he would be asked to leave. I hope this is not one of your "minor variations". This is major in my book.
The reason you are rejected is because you DO sound like Gothard and many of us don't want to have any more to do with that man. Granted, some of us let ourselves be deceived, but that was also part of the plan to leave blank spaces in the book. We were too busy writing to look up the Scripture. The first night we even took our Bibles. Found out that wasn't "necessary" so we left them at home the rest of the week. I guess one of us should have written and one followed along in the Bible. But we didn't know then what we know now.
I wish I could take you seriously but so far I haven't seen any evidence that it is possible.
Alfred,
You said, "I am someone far less concerned with the definitions of others than you think." This is exactly what I was getting at. Whether you realize it or not, the reason you're not showing that concern is because your cognitive bias has blinded you toward seeing just how much you have bought into the definitions of others, since they have been conflated with the actual inspiration of Scripture over decades of reinforcement. Let that sink in for a minute before you rally to your keyboard to type up a defensive response. You want to be heard, admitting that you exist independently as an autonomous human being apart from Bill. Great. But your words on here show otherwise. Why do you think anyone on here would "take you seriously" when all you have been doing is parroting Bill-speak while being the very embodiment of the "mind closed, case closed" paradigm you denounce?
I'm not mincing words when I say this. All I've seen from you is the tossing out of verses and passages that contain a word or idea we're discussing and happen to sound like they support your point of view, as if they're magic spells from a concordance that are supposed to do your bidding. In the meantime, all I've seen in response is rich, in-depth analysis of these same Scriptures from people like Don and Elizabeth that actually takes the rest of Scripture and the context within which it was written into account. Can't you see the dissonance here? It's certainly much different than the "hand-waving" that you characterize it to be. Yes, you indeed "search the Scriptures," but your searching is much more akin to what Jesus denounced when he spoke to the Jewish leaders in John 5:39-40: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."
It's like you're desperate to find every morsel you can track down that makes you feel like your dedication to IBLP hasn't been for nought, or that your efforts to "get busy" have made you superior over everyone else who may be on a different point in their spiritual walk. I was wondering if you'd jump at the chance to go on the defensive when I brought up the similarities between IBLP and Mormonism in the thread below, and sure enough, you approached it from the standpoint of, "Mormonism?! I didn't get that one wrong!" It always comes back to you and your ability to "get it right." I'm beginning to wonder if you enjoy spending time here not only because you feed off the negative reinforcement, but also because at least in the back of your mind, you want to pounce on every chance to point out whenever someone "gets it wrong" or says something incriminating. You certainly seem to be finding some enjoyment in doing this with Don in the below thread. You didn't even take some time to really ask for clarification about what he said; you simply heard something that sounded out of whack and dove right in. It's almost as if you feel even more vindicated: after all, if someone sounds wrong about one thing, their entire judgment must be suspect, right? I'm certainly glad our Savior views us in far more nuanced ways than that.
The bottom line is this, Alfred: if you really want to be taken seriously, you're going to need to take the people with whom you disagree just as seriously. Especially those who have been victims of IBLP-sanctioned abuse.
So far I've only had time to read the Pig in a Poke article. It is very well laid out, and so clear. Thank you, Tony for writing this, and Thank you RG for making it available. I will read additional articles as time permits.
I think Tony makes a good case that Bill's teaching is heretical and uses bits and pieces of centuries old heresies. The first one being the circumcisers which were Jewish converts that insisted that gentile Christians need to follow Jewish las such as diet and circumcision etc. This old heresy was dealt with in the Bible in the book of Acts as well as St. Paul's letters. What is surprising is that Bill didn't promote the very basis of kosher diet laws which is not to eat blood in meat. This means that animals were killed in a certain way in order to quickly drain off the blood by a quick slit in the throat. Muslims practice this as well in their halal laws. Bill picks and chooses what appears to be based on his own likes and dislikes. The Counsel of Jerusalem recorded in Act recommended not eat strangled animals. What is surprising is that more pastors did not object or raise concerns about this blatant heresy in his body of teaching. Bill doesn't start out with these teachings of OT laws either, they come up later in IBYC seminars like Thursday and Friday. By that time, the attendee is already hooked and any objections are overlooked. Likewise, it is surprising that Bill didn't promote the Jewish holidays like passover, Jewish New year, Yom Kippur and the festival of tents. It shows the picking a choosing by Bill at looking at certain foods like pork and shellfish but ignoring to follow the basis which is not to eat blood in meat.
Alfred,
I recently spent a long time reading through old comments on this site. I decided I would ask you one question if you came back.
What is your primary goal or purpose in commenting on these articles? I am genuinely curious.
I have been praying for you.
Actually, from an Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective, the assumptions behind "Sola Scriptura" are part of the problem here--a sort of "elephant in the room" which only seems out of place to one who is not a Protestant apparently! These Sola Scriptura assumptions are both part of what got BG into his heresy, and also part of the reason why an appeal to Scripture alone will never fully heal and correct the problem that now exists (as may be demonstrated by reading this thread and many others at this site). The fact is Scripture is never "sola"--it is never alone--when we come to read it. It is always accompanied by whatever assumptions of how it is to be understood we have learned implicitly and explicitly from our culture and various denominational/non-denominational traditions of interpretation. Some of these assumptions about what Scripture means or how that may be discovered may be genuinely apostolic, catholic and orthodox or compatible with such and others may not. Wherever those assumptions and varied traditions of interpretation are not corrected by the genuinely fully apostolic catholic Christian Tradition--what has been taught in Christ's Church "always, everywhere, and by all" (see the famous dictum of St. Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century), we will err in our understanding and application of the Scriptures. A text always has to have an interpreter. It is never entirely self-interpreting. It must be understood in its full and proper context, and in the case of the Christian Scriptures, Orthodox would argue that proper context is the apostolic, catholic and orthodox Church as it existed from the first centuries when it was founded by Christ at Pentecost until the Great Schism split East from West, and in which the NT portion of those Scriptures, which is the key to the genuinely Christian interpretation of the OT (see Luke 24:27), was given birth. I've got news for BG--that Church looked NOTHING like his organization!
I also observe that with the ancient heresies, some of which it is being argued here seem to be reincarnated in BG's teaching, there were duly ordained bishops in eucharistic communion with one another who shared dogmatic teaching and liturgical and sacramental understandings in common to a much greater degree than is now found in modern Evangelicalism, who met in councils (a continuation of the process described in Acts 15) to prayerfully decide dogmatic questions when heretical teachings arose to make this necessary. It was the conviction of the Church of that time that the Holy Spirit would lead, through this mechanism, not just individuals or local independent congregations, but the whole universal Body of Christ's Church together represented in their bishops, to uphold and more clearly articulate the genuinely orthodox interpretation and understanding of the apostolic teaching about Christ in the face of heresy in accordance with the promise of Christ in John 16:13. All the official dogmatic rulings and anathemas of those early "ecumenical" councils that guided the undivided (pre-1054 Great Schism) orthodox Church of the first millennium stand to this day in the Eastern Orthodox Communion of churches.
When an abuse of power or twisting of Church teaching/Scripture arises on the part of a particular bishop or priest (as it often has over the course of Church history), it is ultimately clearly exposed as such by recourse to the clear teaching of the Church at past councils, through the ongoing conciliar activity of her bishops, and especially as this teaching is reflected in the example of the lives of those she has recognized as Saints throughout the ages.
Agree 100%. Bill Gothards is Sola Scriptura run amuck. I've often thought relooking at his teaching is that he is a combination of about 3 different ancient heresies, the circumcisers, gnostic and Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism.
Karen, I share your concerns and observations about "Sola Scriptura." (But do I hear between your lines a commitment to "Sola the Eastern Orthodox Communion of churches"?) To my tradition I like to point out that "all Scripture IS inspired by God," not "all Scripture WAS inspired by God." Not only is Scripture ALWAYS accompanied by our own assumptions; it is also ALWAYS accompanied by the living Spirit of Jesus/God, the same Spirit that bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God, the same Spirit that establishes and sustains the Church, the Spirit of the Chief Bishop of the Church, the Lord Jesus Christ.
that isn't what Karen is saying. Sola Scriptura at it's heart is that people can read the Bible on their own and come up with what the Bible means or is saying. She isn't saying that the Bible isn't inspired word of God. She is saying that there is no authoritative interpretation according to sola scriptura. This is how different people like Bill can take advantage of the gullible. Bill puts together a very complex system, quotes a lot of Bible verses at people to support his system as "Biblical" and sweep up people into it and to their determent later on. This is why there are so many Protestant groups all claiming to be Biblical. After a while, an honest person as to ask themselves who is right or Biblical.
Thanks Rob. You're right. I certainly don't question the inspiration of the Scriptures, which is taught in the Scriptures, which was recognized by the early Church Fathers as such and passed on to us today, and, of course, believed by the Orthodox Church. Yes, the question is where do we find an authoritative witness to the correct interpretation of the Scriptures? The Orthodox Church would suggest the patristic consensus of teaching, the consistent practices, and the conciliar decisions of the united Church of the first millennium provide this proper interpretive framework. Accordingly, the EO have added no new dogma (using the original version of the Nicene Creed to this day as their official Symbol of faith), and they retain substantially the same liturgical practice, hymns, and prayers of that first millennium Church (in which its theology continues to be expounded). They retain the same understanding of the nature of the presbytery/bishopric and of baptism and the eucharist as the Nicene Church. I could go into an Orthodox Church service anywhere in the world and no matter what language was being used, I would find the same order of service, and I would know what was being done, prayed, sung and taught there in those rites, hymns and prayers on any given Sunday.
Karen, this is a great testimony and I accept it. I do question whether a first century Christian would have any idea what all those icons mean, so there are strong and significant Orthodox traditions appearing to lack the credibility of those you mentioned. I do have more appreciation for the icons than before I began to study them. I can perceive how they were mighty witnesses to an illiterate population for hundreds of years. But I pray that anyone who prays or worships through meditation on an icon would even moreso meditate on the Scriptures themselves, for it is they that bear [perfect] witness of Him (John 5:39).
Don,
icons mean image and the Orthodox and eastern Catholics that use them in prayer as an aid. They are not direct objects of worship. There is a rich meaning in them. We are suppose to be "icons" for Christ and reflect Jesus to others. God made us humans as "icons" in His image. Now constrast this to Bill Gothard who had as a corner stone of his ministry scripture meditation and memorization. But his fruit as you know in you own life error, hurt, pain and heresy. I think I will take any Orthodox or Eastern Catholic using icons as a prayer aid and meditation than Bill's Rhemas from his meditation and meorization.
Rob, you may or may not be aware, but E.O. icons have special status and official approval (particular monasteries seem to have or have had economic monopolies on the production of particular iconography). Icons seem to be sacred in and of themselves, not worshiped but neither are they simply religious art or prayer aids. There are some very nationalistic icons that perpetuate national myths. And they are preached as "windows to heaven". Icons are for the most part a later addition to the faith.
Respectfully Don, I am very much aware that icons are considered "windows to heaven" in Eastern Orthodoxy. I don't want to get off track at all here but I am concerned that you made some "generalizations" about EO. Since icons are suppose to be made in a state of prayer coupled with study and even fasting that is probably why they are usually done in monestaries whose purpose is prayer. I'm not so sure claiming or implying that there is a hidden financial motive in that is exactly fair. I think in relation to the purpose of this site which is Bill Gothard and his teaching, that Catholics and Orthodox could use this to make unfair and broad type generalizations about evangelicals and fundamentalists as well who are the bulk of Bill's followers. Orthodox do claim that icons have been apart of Christianity from the beginning. St. Iraneus does mention them in "Against Heresies". One thing I've appreciated about RG is that the usual swipes and generalizations against other Christians that fall out of the evangelical/fundamentalist world are rarely found here. RG does give a rare opportunity for all kinds of different Christians ability to talk with each other without the usual belittling that goes on between different Christian groups.
Rob, thank you. I accept your correction. My knowledge it but general, but that keeps me from seeing a clear justification for icons. I will look into Iraneus, and try to keep from making unsubstantiated accusations. I have an honest respect for E.O. due to its steadfast devotion to Scripture and the ancient Creeds. I share the prayer that those Orthodox recently freed from Eastern European atheistic tyrannies will, through their newfound freedom to attend to the Word see the fruit of the Spirit abound in their lands. I see Solzhenitsyn, alongside John Paul II and Billy Graham as the best of the 20th Century Church Universal.
Karen, thank you again for your perspective which always blesses me. But it seems the schism leaves all in the same unsteady boat: none of us has resort to an authoritative council of the universal church. I can accept the deficiencies you describe to the Calvinistic reliance on sola scriptura, and yet have confidence that where the Spirit of God is, there is the one holy apostolic and universal church. We have the Spirit and He lives within us, so that we don't need anyone to teach us what is true. For the Spirit teaches us everything we need to know and what He teaches is true--it is not a lie. We must remain faithful to what we have been taught from the beginning. These are reliably preserved in the canon of the New Testament and the Creeds that the Orthodox so faithfully preserve and treasure. I know no way to validate or verify any other tradition in any church.
And yet, we are where we are in this deconstruction of Gothard's false teaching because nearly all of our churches, as far as I know, ignored the teaching and failed to confront him and us with the truth. Too, most of this website's readership came to Christ through the preaching of Protestants in part because the Orthodox never brought the Gospel to us. I pray that we may better understand each other and move closer to each other in doctrine and belief and in greater Unity and fuller Communion. But I have no doubt that we have one Lord, one faith, one baptism and one Spirit. And One Savior. Thanks be to God.
I can certainly understand, Don, why you would think the Great Schism (and subsequent schisms of the various Protestant Churches from the Pope in Rome and from each other) leaves all professing Christians today in the same boat, but to be honest, having experienced both sides of this equation, I'm here to tell you it sure doesn't feel like I'm in the same boat (with regard to attempting to discern spiritual truth and the meaning of the Scriptures) that I was as an Evangelical. Not even close! I have a kind of solid interpretive ground beneath my feet I never did before. I have a much clearer vision of Christ, and I have a kind of historical continuity with our early Christian forbearers I didn't have as an Evangelical. There is also a kind of integrity between the conviction in my heart of the Holy Spirit about the meaning of Scripture and of the gospel and what is being formally taught in my church that wasn't there as consistently when I was in Evangelical churches. I also have access to a set of spiritual practices that draw me more reliably experientially into the presence of Christ than I did before.
There's no doubt none of us would find our way to faith in Christ without the conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), whose presence fills all of creation, and no-one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit, but remember the promise of the Holy Spirit's guidance into "all truth"--the "catholicity" of Christ--in the special sense of which I believe we must talk wasn't given to the lone ranger seeker or believer--or even to a lone Apostle or lone congregation. Christ gave this promise to His appointed Apostles (John 16:13-18) as a group. This is very significant. When John wrote to the NT believers in 1 John 2 in the context of avoiding deceptive teaching from "anti-christs", he could say they had "an anointing" within that would teach them the truth because these believers were part of an Apostolic community. They had been baptized by an Apostle (or later an Apostle's appointee), and had, had an Apostle lay hands on them for them to receive the Holy Spirit. They could have confidence they had received the Holy Spirit in this special sense because they were actually in a Church community, a local congregation established by an Apostle or an Apostle's appointee (presbyter/bishop) that remained faithful to the fullness of the Apostolic teaching, and they were thus also effectively submitted to the Apostles and their teaching.
Now, I want to clarify I'm not saying (and Orthodoxy does not teach) that if someone wanted to be a member of the Church for a motive other then a genuine conversion to Christ and the Apostles' teaching (but for some ulterior motive) and managed to get himself baptized and into the Church, that he was somehow magically being filled and led by the Holy Spirit from that point on, whereas no one outside the Church could be led of the Holy Spirit (obviously untrue, since no one can confess Christ in the first place and become a member of a Church apart from the Holy Spirit). I am saying the one inside the Church would, from that point on if he so desired, have access to the Spirit's way of life and the fullness of His teaching in a way he would not outside the Church. If he continued to participate in an insincere way or with ulterior motives, he would ultimately bring not salvation, but condemnation on himself, though (like the magician Simon who sought to buy the power to bestow the Holy Spirit from the Apostles). 1 John 2:19 also describes those who were for a time in the company of the Apostles and of Christ (or the NT Church communities perhaps), but left because they were not "of us." A circumstance in the NT this statement in 1 John 2: 19 brings to mind for me is recorded in John 6:38-71. Interesting that the interpretation of Christ's teaching in this passage held in the early Church still creates a stumbling block for and divides professing Christians today. Were you aware that the Gospel of John is organized in sections as a primer for catechumens (those preparing for baptism into the early Church) covering major aspects of Church life, and this passage in John 6 is in a section designated for teaching the meaning of the Eucharist/Communion? (I didn't know that until an Orthodox priest mentioned it.)
It is certainly God's mercy that many first come to know the Gospel apart from an Orthodox witness (at least a direct witness--I'd argue none of us would be here apart from the Orthodox witness of the first millennium!). That is the case for me, since I first believed on Christ in a Methodist Church as a child. Certainly, even if I now had to argue the catholicity of the truth can't be found outside the Orthodox Church, the fact that we are here talking and can substantially relate to and understand each other means something of that truth, and the Church's influence is still present even outside of her formal boundaries. As Met. Kallistos (Timothy Ware) has written in his book on the Orthodox Church. "We can say where the Church is, but we can't always say where she isn't. . . . The Orthodox Church does not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit" (or words to that effect). St. Augustine's words in looking at the Church and schisms of his day could say (and this still holds true) "How many wolves within [the Church[; how many sheep without!"
Finally, I will say most likely you didn't hear the gospel directly from an Orthodox believer because we are in such a tiny minority in this country (and those who are more than nominally Orthodox tinier yet, undoubtedly). For centuries and especially the last one, the Orthodox have been fighting for their very survival--their traditional homelands being under Muslim domination and, more recently, under Communist oppression. You have probably heard that there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than all the centuries before combined. What you may not have heard is that the vast majority of those Christians were Orthodox.
Karen, this is awesome. I truly respect your maturity and reflection. I have heard similar testimonies from other former evangelicals, but not so many from originally Orthodox. But I have been assured from the most Authoritative of Sources that those who are forgiven more are more grateful!
I became interested when I visited Georgia (as in former Soviet) in 2011. The hostility of a few Orthodox who appear to have superstitions but little knowledge of Scripture was strong. We were promoting the Jesus Film which has been endorsed by their Patriarch and passing out Georgian Bibles approved by their Patriarch. And yet we were labeled "Russelists" (Jehovah's Witnesses). I was fascinated and began to study.
What you say in this post, however, is also what my studied, sincere Roman Catholic friends profess. My point of the schism is questioning which side I turn to if I was indeed convinced that my Reformed Faith was so lacking? Indeed, I may ask in the fleshly spirit of Job's "friends" whether our Lord would let the primary witness of His Grace be overrun by Moslems and atheists?
Or may it be that all believers need a dose of what each has received? My working hypothesis is that He has allowed schism to: 1) preserve so many distinctives of the faith such as those that Luther found wanting in the Rome of his time, and 2) that the very fellowship we share would prove we our his disciples by our sorely tested love one for another, a harmony inexplicable to a world that knows human division to be so destructive. (I won't mention the sacking of Byzantium right here. As far as I know, no Reformed or Anglicans participated. I was born a Methodist so I can relate there too.)
Thanks for the kind words, Don. I don't know about "maturity", but I have at least learned to pay attention to how more well-informed Orthodox teachers articulate the faith and the nature of the Orthodox Church's ecclesiology, and try to faithfully represent what they have said. I certainly can't be anything but grateful for how God worked through the Evangelical communities through which I traveled over my lifetime as a believer (the Methodist Church in which I grew up was still Evangelical at the time)--even if in the end I discovered it wasn't enough. It's unfortunate that there can be suspicion and hostility from some Orthodox (mostly in the "old countries") who have had little exposure to Christians from other traditions, who have just been taught to steer clear of teachings outside the Church. (I think this is generally good counsel for those who are just rediscovering their Orthodox faith because there is plenty out there to misguide and confuse as well as lead toward Christ.) As you probably discovered from your visit to Georgia, for many of those in traditionally Orthodox cultures, their "Orthodoxy" is more of a cultural heritage than a mature Christian faIth because of the aggressive persecution and suppression of the Church under Muslim or Communist rule. From what I've read, many in traditionally Orthodox countries recovering from Communist rule, like Georgia and Russia, seem to be reclaiming mainly just the outward trappings of the faith to begin with, but slowly, slowly a revival of the Church and discipling of new believers is taking place again. Monasteries (the spiritual heart of the Orthodox Church) and the prayer life of the Church (which is deeply steeped in Scripture) are being rebuilt along with the restoration of its places of worship. It will take time.
Similar to your experience in Georgia, when I was on the mission field as a short-termer in the 80s with a Pentecostal denomination in a traditionally Catholic Western European country, all Protestant groups, apart from a mainline Reformed Protestant Church, had no official recognition from the gov't as a church, had difficulty getting property, etc., and were considered "sects" just like Jehovah's Witnesses, too. I don't think it has changed there all that much. Orthodox in this country who develop relationships with believers from other churches are usually much more receptive to looking for and expecting to find common ground, and of course, increasingly, many Orthodox in this country, (including many of our priests and some of our bishops) didn't start out that way and are often from Evangelical or other Protestant backgrounds. Far and away, most of those are more studied and scholarly types (often have seminary backgrounds or were pastors) active in ministry began studying Church history and ended up Orthodox. Some like Thomas Howard (Elizabeth Elliot's brother) have ended up (as you mentioned) becoming Catholic. As you observe, it can be argued and Orthodox wouldn't disagree, there is a lot more continuity in the Catholic tradition with the earlier Pre-Schism Church as you note than with the Protestant traditions, and recently there has been movement toward greater rapprochement between Orthodox and Catholic, which most of us welcome. Greater cooperation and stronger fraternal relations are a good thing considering the common enemies of all more "traditional" Christians we are facing--secularism, materialism, redefinition of social institutions like marriage, etc.
With regard to your thoughts about why God might have permitted schism, I was reminded of this parable used by Russian Orthodox theologian Alexis Khomiakov when asked to describe the Orthodox attitude toward other Christians. Met. Kallistos (Ware) shares this parable in his book, The Orthodox Church (which is an excellent general introduction to the Orthodox Church, btw). The parable goes like this:
A master departed, leaving his teaching to his three disciples. The eldest faithfully repeated what his master had taught him, changing nothing. Of the other two, one added to the teaching, the other took away from it. At his return the master, without being angry with anyone, said to the two younger, "Thank your eldest brother; without him you would not have preserved the truth, which I handed over to you." Then he said to the eldest brother, "Thank your younger brothers; without them you would not have understood the truth which I entrusted to you."
I wouldn't go so far as to say God instigated the schisms that have occurred. They have been a source of great pain and confusion and even an obstacle to faith for many looking at Christianity from the outside or who have left the fold being hopelessly confused or turned off by the divisiveness. On the other hand, as we see with the story of Joseph in the OT, what the Evil One means for our destruction, God turns into salvation for all who love Him and are putting trust in Him being called according to His purposes. Despite the doctrinal division that has occurred, a spiritual kinship between all sincere believers is especially evident and powerful in Communist prisons where Protestant pastors and believers suffered for Christ alongside their faithful Orthodox and Catholic counterparts. There are some powerful stories from Romanian Lutheran Pastor Richard Wurmbrand in that regard. He had great love for his Orthodox fellow sufferers and drew great strength from their faithful example during his imprisonment.
The only advice I can give anyone who is prayerfully seeking discernment in these matters, is set your heart to follow Christ wholeheartedly to the very best of your ability. You can't do better than that, and in His own way and time, He will make the way clear. Slowly, slowly, He will move you to where he wants you to be.
I think you are hitting a nail on a head! Bill's perspective is most emphatically "Sola Scriptura" . . . mine too. The draw for many who have been attracted to Bill's ministry. On this we part company . . . I think, in skimming through comments. A reverence for the written word of God - with interpretation provided by the Holy Spirit as author is key to everything. We do not need smart people with degrees and titles and priests and churches to tell us what it means . . . it is there, on the bottom shelf, the cookie jar, as J. Vernon McGee used to say. God expect every individual believer, with faith in Him, asking for wisdom, to meditate on it and understand it for him or herself.
"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." (1 John 2:20)
"5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1)
"Sola Scriptura", especially the BG version, amounts to any individual being able to say the Bible means what it means to him (or her) alone. Sola Scriptura amounts to nothing more than the Scriptures according to me, myself, & I! The Pharisees were also very concerned with being scrupulously faithful to the Scriptures, studying them intently so they could succeed in being righteous before God (John 5:39), but interestingly, they missed Christ when He was right in front of them. With the often unwitting embrace of this false assumption that the Scriptures mean what I think they mean without recourse to the guidance of the teaching and interpretations that have been handed down within the whole Church, those wishing to follow Christ in his Church have been (and continue to be) divided repeatedly from one another until there are now literally thousands of competing interpretations of Scripture and groups that adhere to these, all in the Name of Christ and fidelity to "His Word!"
I'm sorry, Alfred, but the Holy Spirit does not disagree with Himself over time. This is not reverence for the Scriptures and for the interpretation given by the Holy Spirit! It is at best a dangerous naiveté, and at worst the deepest most sinful arrogance and blindness of soul to think we have nothing to learn from those who have gone before us, steeped themselves in the Scriptures, walked in radical obedience to the commandments of Christ, and more often than not suffered and died for their refusal to renounce Christ as leaders and bishops of the flock of Christ. For such were the Church Fathers we are talking about. Ignorance of what they taught about the meaning of Scripture and why is a sinful and foolish ignorance. As BG has aptly demonstrated, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it (in this case, its heresies!).
All this is important, but unless it can be established that Gothard is consistent with Scripture but just not with some traditions, I don't think sola scriptura is the problem this website is addressing. I think the authority, wisdom, godliness and orthodoxy of B.G. is the problem: Sola Gotharda.
I agree, Don. Even "Sola Scriptura" as it was classically formulated by the Reformers didn't mean what it means to BG and many modern Evangelicals today (a position which author Keith Mathison has dubbed "Solo Scriptura", i.e., just me and my Bible). The Reformers assumed Christians should read and interpret Scripture through the apostolic "rule of faith" summarized in the ancient Creeds of the Church.
Bill certainly perverts the meaning of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
Rob, reading II Tim 3 in light of this discussion makes me think the Reformed should promote "Tota Scriptura" more than "Sola Scriptura".
the problem with sola Scripture is that it is not taught in scripture.
Totally agree, rob war.
I really do believe that the Western church at large has bought into many modernist trappings, one of which is sola scriptura. This may sound like a really bold assertion to some, but I'll try to explain where I'm coming from. For the sake of clarification, I'm defining "modernism" as the school of thought that permeated Western culture around the Renaissance and the Reformation and reached full speed in the Enlightenment. One of the major paradigm shifts it brought about was the demonization of the past and the focus on the future. In the pre-modern era, people often looked to those who came before them for guidance and wisdom. Not so with the modern era. The same could be said for the way truth was handled. Before modernism, truth was viewed much more holistically - as something that had to be derived from multiple sources, such as divine revelation, tradition, experience, and more. But with the dawn of modernism came the compartmentalization of information. We see this clearly with concepts like separation of church/state, the scientific classification of plants and animals, the Christian life broken up into steps like justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.
However, truth has also been given the same treatment. I tend to call this the "magic pill" or "silver bullet" phenomenon - in which people try to derive all truth from only one source and deem anything that can be gleaned outside that source as completely unnecessary for living or not worth knowing at all. Secular moderns have, by and large, chosen science as their silver bullet. Christian moderns have, by and large, viewed the words of Scripture as their silver bullet with the advent of sola scriptura and Protestantism, which is arguably the most modern expression of Christianity. Obviously, there have been many, many benefits accompanying this, such as the accessibility, deep study, and translation of the Bible. But it has also dissuaded many believers from seeking out God's truth elsewhere and persuaded many believers to elevate Scripture to a position beyond its own stated scope of authority in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. And, as many of us on RG can testify, this type of elevation can easily be exploited by false teachers who want to twist Scripture in order to serve as a tool that can be used to accomplish their purposes at their whim. This is the reason why I consider IBLP to be the epitome of modernism in the church.
As a response to silver bullet thinking, our culture is now entering an age of postmodernism. Instead of returning to a more ancient understanding of truth, Western society has chosen to reject the silver bullets and all other truth sources entirely. Sadly, because modernism embodies what we consider familiar, much of the Western church appears to wish to return to it instead of looking deeper into history. And as a result, we continue to see modernist philosophy and thought permeating the church - like positivism, the belief that human beings are nothing more than animals, and animals are nothing more than simply machines to be programmed. Instead of meeting people where they're at and addressing their God-given needs, we've embraced positivism: throw a verse at them to make them feel better, downplay emotions and feelings, and sidestep the tough processes like repentance, redemption, and reconciliation as if they're as simple as turning on a switch or fixing the alternator in one's car. Is it any wonder that scandals like the ones seen in IBLP and elsewhere continue to be swept under the rug?
JB you have given me something to think about. Love this perspective.
I noticed that nowhere in the original post did the author actually quote Jesus. There's a lot of only being saved through Christ, but there are no quotations of Christ. "By faith alone"? Definitely not from Jesus. He never said that. You can find what Jesus thought was important for salvation in Matt 25. He listed those things one must do to be counted among the sheep rather than the goats. "Faith" was not even mentioned. In fact it can easily be argued that one could have no knowledge of Jesus at all and be saved. "When did we see you hungry...?" A "believer" would know when they saw Jesus, wouldn't they? A good non-believer wouldn't know who Jesus was, but would behave morally based on what they felt was correct - and that's what Jesus wants. He never said he thought it important that you "believe IN him", but that you "believe HIM." He taught you what you should DO to be saved and that did not include faith. And that is where modern Christianity has failed. From my point of view, they actively reject most of what Jesus taught in favor of what religion teaches. Remember that Paul, the Apostles and all the theologians were all human. Don't let what they preached trump what Jesus said.
Andy, what you're saying is that Paul and the others were able to write only Jesus' words correctly, and the other words they got wrong? That the Spirit of Christ that led them to write Jesus' words was not able to lead them to properly tell us what Jesus taught them? Or to tell us how they lived those teachings out in the Spirit in their own lives?
To continue your logic, you cannot believe that what Jesus said was what Jesus said. You not only trumped the humans, you trumped God. Twice, the second time being your belief that you must work to save yourself because Jesus couldn't complete that task.
The good news is that Jesus is able to do more than we give him credit for.
Andy, what the Apostle Paul wrote that is in the Bible is considered on par with the Bible, and when he said he was giving his own view, he made very clear that point. But moving on, Your statement about faith not being included to be saved, only works, what do you make of when the Jews asked Jesus what work they should do, and Jesus told them the work they should do was to believe the One God sent? The term "have faith in the One God sent" is the same exact meaning. We cannot attain righteousness by doing good things, apart from an spiritual, organic, real live union with Christ, and that involves faith from first to last. Jesus also pointed to the serpent Moses made as what saves, although Jesus was of course referring to Himself. But the point was the people who were bitten we're going to die unless they obeyed the one command to look at the serpent. IOW, they were HELPLESS. Same with salvation to eternal life. It starts with faith in Jesus. It is lived by faith in Jesus, and we pass away and go to heaven by grace, through faith in Jesus.
One of Gothard's most serious errors was to distort the meaning of charis, or grace, into something we merit more and more of the more we obey God. It gets one on the path to focusing more on his or her own performance than it does to the command to look unto Jesus, the Author and Perfector of faith. Yes obedience to the moral commands of the NT brings blessing, but by this obedience we merit nothing that will add to our righteousness.
I said above our relationship to Christ is living and organic, and it is. But it is based on God's declarations about us and His imputed righteousness to us. I know now I am speaking from Paul's writings, which you do not accept, but please do consider Jesus' words to the Pharisees when they ask Him what work they should do, and also consider what Jesus said about the brass serpent. Faith, or simple belief, or trust, "taking God at His Word," is first and foremost all through life until the day that faith shall be sight.
I don't think you realize how illogical your argument is. So then why did Jesus pick 12 apostles then who were commissioned by Him to carry on? Are you saying the rest of the NT is wrong? The apostles were wrong and the only thing that counts are the exact words of Jesus?
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
You must not have read the whole article. He did quote Jesus. Not that quoting other parts of Scripture is less authoritative. It's ALL the Word of God.
exactly, unless of course you are Bill or one of his supporters and then some Bible verses are more inspired than others based of course on what you want to prove from the Bible.
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
—John 6:29
"If a man is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
—John 7:37
"Whoever believes in him (Jesus) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light."
—John 3:18-21
"When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no-one who believes in me should stay in darkness."
—John 12:44-46
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
—John 11:25,26
I think it's kinda hard to miss Jesus saying that belief in Him through faith is our salvation. I'm not sure how you missed these verses.
I fail to see in this the Jesus you were speaking of. How could it be argued that men can be saved apart from knowledge of Jesus?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
John 14:6
Right. I remember all those times He said: "Arise and walk, your works have made you whole." And then on the cross when he said: "It is finished when my sheep do the works that I have called them to do and not before."
Andy, your perspective is so far from the teaching of the apostles that it can only be characterized as rejecting of Grace. Jesus did the works of the law in your place.
You. Can't. Do. Them.
Only. He. Can.
Christ in you, the hope of Glory.
"I am the Way...No man comes to the Father but by Me." "Abide in me." "If you continue in my word, you are my disciples and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." Doesn't sound like human works to me.
You only know what Jesus said by the teaching of the apostles. It is absurd to reject their full teaching in favor of 'what Jesus said'. If you reject John 3:16, you must reject all of John. Shepherd/sheep: Who does the work in that relationship? If works can save you, the cross was unnecessary.
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8)
Wait! That looks like I CAN fulfill the law! All I have to do is "love one another", which sure looks like a commandment.
Whose responsibility, Don, is it to love my neighbor? Is that Jesus responsibility . . . or mine? In other words, does the Lord hold me or Jesus accountable if I don't love? If I find I am not loving my neighbor, what should I do? Shall I "rest in the finished work of Christ" and consider it done?
Here was was James had to say on that note:
"8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2)
Either love . . . or commit sin? That looks like Jesus blood is alone not sufficient to keep me from sinning. Looks like I have to do something practical about it.
Then he says:
"15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. "
Love . . . or sin. Love . . . or have dead faith. THAT sounds like just a tad more than singing "Jesus Paid it All" . . . which, of course, He did. Is ANYONE suggesting that the "sufficiency of Christ" is enough to keep me from sinning . . . or . . . do I have some fairly significant responsibilities, now that I am saved by the sufficiency of the Savior?
Alfred,
Whenever you post verses, I often do a quick search online so I can read commentary, other translations, etc. and be reminded of the larger context of what you’re posting. Alongside all of the websites that allow you to read the Bible listed in the results is the official internet home of Mormonism. It’s been frightening to see just how many similarities there are between the LDS church’s take on these passages and IBLP’s. It’s even more frightening when you look at just how high the suicide rate is in Utah, where the message of rigid perfectionism is preached from Mormon pulpits.
Yes, as believers, we do have many responsibilities. But as Elizabeth mentioned in an earlier comment, “the ‘expectations’ (if you wanna call them that) that I sense are loving and forgiving, not harsh and rigid.” It's especially critical to understand just how much groups like IBLP have taken liberties with passages in the Bible that were originally written to a very honor/shame-based culture and refashioned them under a modernist lens as "or else" commands - not unlike how some scholars view the U.S. Constitution as a "living, breathing document" that can mean something completely different depending on the situation.
Just look at the apostles. These people, when stripped of the saintliness with which the modern church tends to paint them, would be colossal goofballs who would never be fit for ministry in your friend’s world. A tax collector, a “doubter,” a Jewish jihadist, the “sons of thunder” who wanted to destroy a village because they couldn’t sleep there for the night… these couldn’t possibly be the people that Jesus selected to build His church on, right? Yet apparently, He thought it was a good idea. Of course, these people grew and matured over time. But that didn’t happen because Jesus cracked His whip and expected them to figure everything out and force the growth to happen as quickly as possible. The Law isn’t capable of doing this. It can only remind us of our sinful state; it cannot make us more Christ-like people. Their growth happened only because they were shown grace in the first place and understood just how destitute they were. It happened through a nurturing process that had ups and downs, many of which are recorded in Scripture.
My point is that Christianity is the only belief system with a God who truly understands the plight of humanity - why, He even sent His own Son to us in human form! And as such, unlike other religions in which people must check off a set of boxes to get to paradise (and in some cases, escape the wrath of a vindictive deity), living in Christ allows us the freedom to be works in progress as we seek that growth. There’s an ocean of difference between saying that and excusing sin, by the way. Ultimately, it’s only ever through the Holy Spirit’s work in our lives that we can grow. There is indeed much work to be done on our part, but what it looks like in each of our lives will always be different because the Spirit’s work in our lives differs from person to person. We are different people, with different strengths and struggles and stories. We are not produced from molds in a factory.
I know this isn’t what you want to hear, Alfred. It’s not cookie-cutter, results-oriented Christianity, where the growth process can be condensed into a series of steps that are easy to control, and people can be easily categorized into a behaviorally-determined caste system based on whether or not their eyes are communicating a certain way. It’s messy, it’s tough, and it ultimately involves surrendering our penchant for wanting results and rewards.
OK, JB . . . WHAT exactly is your concern with what I posted? That part escaped me. I have no interest in LDS, rejecting them in any manner you can articulate. No offense intended to anyone, but it is how I feel. I reject any notion that the law can get anybody into heaven. Yes . . . James says we are "judged by the law" . . . and we need to "love" because it "fulfills the law". Which Don appeared to claim can't be done. And I say . . . I can. The law is not evil, it is good, and I WANT to fulfill it.
So . . . WHAT do you object to in my statement above?
Alfred, this is a very interesting twisting of the discussion, but I am glad to respond with the agreement that the ONLY thing we are commanded to do is Love--for purposes of the Faith vs. Works discussion. But it must be agreed that all that other stuff in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, the teachings of Bill, cutting skin off of people, dressing modestly, soft curls, avoiding rock and roll, all these things are irrelevant to our calling.
If we want to stay in the vein that love is our calling, let us be complete and acknowledge two commands are relevant: Love God, Love others.
First, I will point out that Rom. 13:8 says that IF you love you HAVE fulfilled, not that you CAN fulfill. With that clear, the question is HOW can one love another? I would say that first you have to love God. For to love a man without loving God is to love the creature ahead of the Creator. So if Loving God comes first, that turns my focus on how to love God. Well, to cut to the quick, I'd say Ephesians 5 answers this with "submit to HIS Love". For herein is love, not that we loved God, but that while we were yet sinners, He loved us! The very best we can do is accept that gift of love, by faith. Now, if I accept Christ's work and reckon myself dead to sin and alive to God (reckoning is believing, not doing), I think one might then begin to look at others as objects of HIS love rather than opportunities for ME to do something or for ME to prove something (or earn anything). With this perspective, what I need to do is allow myself to be part of Jesus work of Love in that man's life.
So whose "responsibility is it"? I answer with the question of WHO can save that man? Jesus. I am but His instrument, or if you will, His bondservant, to se HIS work done through me. In your diligent avoidance of Galatians, you may have missed this statement: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
I am distressed by your focus on the Lord holding accountable. He is the Good Shepherd. He does not look for the lost sheep to hold him accountable. He looks for the sheep to restore him to the Shepherd. Abide in Me, the Shepherd says, walk in the Spirit, the fruit OF THE SPIRIT is all these works YOU want to be accountable for. But any works attributable to you are trash (or at best, wood, hay and stubble, fit to be burned up). If they are attributable to the Spirit and the Son, they are glorious.
James says truly and most practically that it does not profit the naked for you to merely bless him with your mouth. He is NOT talking about your profit. It says the words are empty and dead. We do not see James and Paul in conflict: James is saying that faith is SEEN by works. That without works, the evidence would say that there is no faith. Abraham was saved by faith (Paul) and you see that by his works (James). We have not promoted faith without works. We have promoted faith without obligation, bondage, law or placing heavy burdens on others. Faith supplants those old schoolmasters. You do not see how those things can be squared but that is because you do not comprehend Grace.
Your last paragraph betrays the basis of your faith. You ask "Is ANYONE suggesting that the 'sufficiency of Christ' is enough to keep me from sinning...or do I have some significant responsibilities". Alfred, I am declaring that the sufficiency of Christ is enough to keep me from sinning: Gal. 2:20, Col. 3:11, Romans 6-8 all say the same. You are stuck in Paul's personal struggle in Romans 7: "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
Your response is "I will deliver me from my members! I will take responsibility!"
We, however, are proclaiming Romans 8:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."
I admonish you to listen to what follows that:
"12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him."
FOR WE DID NOT RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF SLAVERY TO FALL BACK INTO FEAR. Your fear of accountability is the bondage that Paul is talking about. From my point of view, love is not a "responsibility" that burdens me, but a response that says "Abba, Father", and "Let me help you brother". But even that is Christ and His sufficiency in me.
Now, let me ask you, do you talk to your wife about her OBLIGATION and RESPONSIBILITY to "love" you and your children? If not, why would you talk to the Bride of Christ about her obligation to love Him? He is more than capable of winning her love by HIS PURIFYING WORKS without your rules.
Note that Romans 8 says the requirement of the law is fulfilled IN us, not BY us.
Don: I am going to say a shocking thing. I don't think you understand the law at all. Explain this section to me . . . head on:
"8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written . . . " (1 Cor. 9)
The law was written FOR OUR SAKES. For US. He cites the law to back up Christian doctrine on paying pastors and such. Can I use the law the same way?
And let me lift a statement: "Alfred, I am declaring that the sufficiency of Christ is enough to keep me from sinning"
YOU have a problem, sir. Do you sin? If so . . . why? You just said that the sufficiency of Christ was enough to keep you from sinning. Yet it doesn't. WHOSE fault is that? Christ and His sufficiency . . . or yours? And why? The answer to this is the key to the whole matter.
Alfred, I have to say with Mrs. Elephant in Jungle Book. "You are a pompous old windbag"
Job 38:1-3 "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said 'Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man: I will question you and you shall answer Me.' "
The Lord bless you too, Eva :-). You aren't The Lord, but ask away . . .
Or, maybe I could ask you the same question. Is Jesus sufficient enough to keep you from sinning . . . You know, real practical power, here and now?
Alfred, I do not think I will explain anything else to you until you demonstrate that you have comprehended anything else I have already explained. And until you explain Galatians to all of us.
Of course I sin. If we say we have no sin we delude ourselves and make God a liar. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse. Now, who is it that cleanses? Not me, not you. Who fulfilled the law? Jesus. Christ in us, the hope of glory.
Go ahead and try to keep the law yourself, in your flesh, and don't forget to keep every single jot an tittle. As your beloved James says: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
I will allow Him to keep it in me by the Spirit. I will place my confidence in His finished work. When I get in the way and sin appears, I will confess and let Him cleanse.
And let us agree then to compare notes in Heaven.
Alfred, sometimes people have to "agree to disagree."
The people on this site left Gothard because they were hurt in some way. I don't think you will convince them to come back by debating with them.
Awesome article!
Thank you, RG and Tony, for this article. Jesus has been teaching me, over the past couple months, that HE is the One who gives me the power to obey Him. I have believed, for years, that I need to follow Jesus' commands throughout the New Testament. But somewhere along the line, I missed a whole lot of things while I was deceived by Billy Got-Her 2 (Bill Gothard, Jr.) and the Mennonite Church. Now, by God's grace, He's starting to fill in the missing pieces and correct my thinking.
Joel, yours is very encouraging to hear!
I love this! I clicked on it and read the first half of this whole article. But after I finish, I plan to read it again and let the Scripture soak in, section by section. It's the Scriptural backbone of the statement:
"Religion says 'Do'. Jesus says 'Done'."
I can't wait to be sinless, seeing Him as He Is, at which point I'll be without sin like He Is. (1 John 3:2,3). A person over which Jesus is having preeminence certainly won't find Him excluding Himself from His already having made the declaration: "It is finished." (John 19:1). I wonder if there's a word for "Done", in Aramaic? If so, maybe Jesus would have said that instead of "Finished". At any rate, what was finished was made to sound pretty....... final.
I have learned so much on RG for over a year now. I learn almost as much from the comments as I do the articles. I have an affection for all who comment here.
One more comment - it is a shame when Alfred is able to 'derail' the thought train. Sometimes it is profitable - sometimes it seems like a big "interruption" (sorry about the ATI wording!).
The character based Gothardism is a man made sub-culture coated with a lot of Christianity terms. He misled many immature, undiscerning Christians, including myself 20 years ago, teaching that characters are the ENDS by which one is judged, not a FRUITS to be grown out of loving obedience to Christ.
He taught how to deal with deadly stresses, not deadly sins; worldly sucesses, not victory in Christ. His teaching is a twisted view of salvation which ended up in losing both eternity and joy living in this already chaotic world which was created by God.
All great civilizations talked about the importance of characters. The four foundational pillars of Roman empire are : Wisdom, Justice, Strength, and Temperance, and Roman soldiers were known to be well disciplined to carry out their duties. The Islamic extremists are required to abide by very strict rules (ironically, in Islamic view, Bill Gothard will be a devil, according to his life style).
His teaching is from man, not from God. His theology reflects how impossible it is to please God and please man in the same time. He cares about his reputation, his image as a devout follower of Christ in this world. But Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.
Is Christ coming to the world just to give us the rules by which we shall have a conflict-free life?
Christian brothers and sisters:
Go out to excel in every positions which God put you in. Ask God to support you in the hardest situations, to love the unlovely, to walk the extra miles out of love for Christ.
"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
God's love transcends!
Amen!
Exactly! All the talking circles about verses........are you led by the Spirit of God? Or by the precepts of man? God might actually tell someone to wear dresses; but don't impose it on others, ok? My sister wore head-coverings when she went to Yemen. One friend suffered condemnation for years because all the 'Christians' kept telling her to stop smoking. Another, nobody said anything but one day the Lord Himself quietly told her to put it out, and she did. In freedom and grace. When He saw that she was ready and the time was right. 'MY sheep hear my voice.' BG is a thief, saying, "Come through the gate of the big red book". There is only one gate into the sheepfold.
The example somewhere above, about a wife's menstrual flow, is a good (actually horrific) example of what the whole program is about. It is the brideGROOM who sheds His blood for the bride, and men have tried over and over to get the brides to lay down their lives for their husbands. Never mind the whole disgusting idea of it, and that it is the wine of communion/passover that is to remind us of Christ's blood.
There seems to be a bit of a discussion about Greek Orthodoxy here too. Some friends turned to that. She was telling me all about it and I showed interest. Her premise was, "Western Christendom is legalistic and Orthodoxy is more spiritual." The next day her 'bishop' sent me an email on how to get started in Orthodoxy. It was all about which days to fast and how, what to chant to yourself all day long, etc." And this is not legalism? Just saying. There is one mediator, no hierarchy in the Kingdom of God. No red books, no set of man-made rules........
Sunflower, "BG is a thief, saying, "Come through the gate of the big red book". Love your analogy !
"the Lord Himself quietly told her to put it out, and she did. In freedom and grace."
EXACTLY! Along with what God told her He GAVE her the "power and desire to do God's will" in His timing.
In His timing, yes. Even if everything in the red book was right, it would still be regurgitated Christianity. Even just following the Bible isn't enough. 'The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.'
We so much want to look up to some man and follow him instead of Christ. To have someone 'interpret' the Word for us, instead of the Holy Spirit. And then we can feel so good because we're doing it in our own strength. And then feel even better because now we can look down our noses at those poor sods who aren't doing what we're doing. And where is love in all this ritual?
People want to treat each other cookie-cutter fashion. All in the same box, like an assembly line. Our Father is not like that. He sees us as individuals and 'raises' us according to our talents, desires, motivations, what brings us joy, our weaknesses, needs, the needs of those near us......
Sunflower,
I think you hit on something really important here. A few years ago, I had an online tussle with a Christian author who happens to believe in a form of sinless perfectionism - that is, he truly believes that God grants a special grace to believers to stop sinning immediately upon salvation. He believes that he himself is without sin and that little errors should be categorized as "mistakes" instead of sins, twisting passages like Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 to fit within his strict, rigid reading of 1 John 1:6-7. Eventually, the conversation reached a point where he literally bulldozed over any emotions I had, saying that my experiences with Jesus and the Holy Spirit didn't really matter at all if I still struggled with something.
Why does it seem like the vast majority of people who lead performance-based lives - IBLP or not - place this huge emphasis on Scripture at the expense of everything else God uses to reveal truth to us? I honestly have to wonder if it's more appealing to reject the methods God uses that are a little bit less malleable to us. The Bible is comprised of 66 books written long ago with words that won't change. It's much easier to shape them into whatever tool we want and fashion whatever message we want when we're dealing with something set in stone. Even better: letting another person do all the heavy thinking for us. An unpredictable God who does the unexpected - now, that's scary.
Don,
Your post on 12 Dec was a beautiful thing.
I am saddened that Alfred can not see this truth.
Dave,
Thank you, Brother Dave. I am preaching to myself what I am discovering as a result of these exchanges. Many tire of Alfred's postures, but they truly test the message of Grace and they have greatly motivated me to better comprehend. May we all "have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that [we] may be filled with all the fullness of God."