Editor's Note: Over the past couple of years, a number of individuals have tried to help Bill Gothard find a way to genuine repentance. Perhaps the most patient of those who have attempted to do so—even in the face of
horrendous past wrongs—were Larne Gabriel and
Bill Wood, who engaged Gothard for 22 months. They were generous with their time in order to provide every opportunity and to remain above reproach regarding Matthew 18.
The two former IBYC (Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts) staffers now share the results and a further warning to the Church. The letter below has been edited slightly to aid our readers. You may click here to read the original letter. A distribution list and copies of cover letters follow this letter.
June 24, 2015
Rev. William Gothard
[mailing address redacted]
Dear Bill,
With much prayer and consultation, as called for in Proverb 12:15, we are informing you in writing and as a follow up to our May 29 conference call that it is necessary to take our involvement in seeking your repentance to the next level, as called for in Matthew 18:17. Sadly, this is just one of the many times we had to follow this command of Christ in the past 35 years. Each time Matthew 18:15–16 was followed, and each time you were unrepentant. This is not done lightly, capriciously, or with malice, but it is with much prayer and deep regret that we take this action. While we can’t judge your heart, your resistance to publicly dealing with your sinful past for a very public ministry is the heart of the problem. Your actions and words over the past year have clearly told us you are not willing to publicly and carefully lay out your sins to those you have offended. The reason this is needed is to aid in the healing of those whose lives you have negatively impacted and damaged over the past forty plus years.
Bill we each choose a path and, in the end, we will answer before our Eternal Judge for that path taken. God has made it clear that when we stand before Him, He will either say “well done thou good and faithful servant” or “I knew you not.” (Matthew 7:13–29 and 25:21) In Leviticus 19:2, God says “Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.” Again in the New Testament Peter repeats the command in the era of Grace, “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (I Peter 1:16) That should be our desire: to be holy.
Often in your seminars you discussed your pride and how it cost you your first job. That same problem has followed you for the past 45 plus years. The things you have done have not been holy, you have lied, covered sin, beguiled women, been inappropriate with women, and been duplicitous in your leadership, and your false humility has been the evidence of your true prideful behavior because it conjures up the adulation you so desire. Lastly you have twisted scripture to show your followers that they need to follow your interpretations of scripture to truly reach God. Your latest confusing material, called the “Inner Brain,” is further evidence of that practice. It effectively put you between your followers and God as being the only person who can interpret this bizarre material. Christianity and salvation are simple and do not need a new approach to living where you become the only oracle who can relay its true meaning.
In the past we have used the example of King Saul and David and have compared you to King Saul. King Saul’s biggest failures were his needs for the approval of man and being fearful of enemies by not solely relying on the power of the mighty God. Saul didn’t completely believe that God would fulfill His promises and protection; as a result, he lost God’s favor. That’s why you are so much like Saul; you are too worried about protecting your reputation instead of trusting that God has something even better for you with a truly repentant heart. But first you have to fully trust Him in your repentance. James 5:16, “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
We have spent much time in the past over the past 35 years trying to show you the path God demands of all of us, but it has fallen on deaf ears. This statement is backed up with what we have tried to accomplish in just the past 22 months. It has included three days of face-to-face meetings in Denver last June, totaling over 14 hours. Then 14 conference calls totaling 12 hours and another 2 hours of one-on-one calls, plus untold emails. That’s just from Bill Wood and me. This does not include the hundreds of pages of correspondence from Tony and others, including hours of calls with them over the years. Even others also have spent countless hours with you, and it all has fallen on deaf ears. Your desire is to move on with what you want to do, with your ministry that is about your life message. In those words I fail to see what is commanded of all of us followers of Jesus. Our message should be all about Christ and what He did for us: His example, His ministry, and His life’s eternal and perfect message. Your message now should include specifically confessing your sins to those you offended, repenting, and asking forgiveness.
Over the past year we, along with others, have provided you with suggested statements to replace your April 17, 2014, billgothard.com statement. Our involvement with your statement was part of an agreement reached in our Denver meeting. While we were open to minor changes, we felt led of the Lord to insist that any new statement include the specific facts of your sins that you have acknowledged to us at one time or another. We could not support anything less than complete openness and truth. (James 5:16, 1 John 1:9)
During many of our conversation you always stated that you want to seek oneness with those you have offended. However, Bill Wood has mentioned several people who have been deeply hurt by you and your staff’s actions. As of this writing there has been no attempt to contact these people; instead, you wait for people to seek you out. This is not a sign of a Godly man, but of a man that is only concerned about himself, a self-centered man. You have never understood the Parable of the Lost Sheep.
While Christ calls us to forgive 70 times 7 in Matthew 18, it is assumed that the request for forgiveness comes from the heart of repentance. That should be evident by a change in thinking that has led to a change in behavior. The outward evidence is manifested by a “brokenness” in the person asking for forgiveness; this is something we have not seen either in our time together or in conversations. The further evidence of that is in all the proposed public statements you provided us over the past year. None of your proposed statements dealt with the problem of your sin and only made excuses for your behavior by projecting your perceived positive accomplishments. In the last statement you submitted to us, on May 28, you used the word “I” over 30 times in an attempt to put yourself in a positive light. When you published that statement on June 2, against our recommendation, the response was not positive and the statement was pulled down for some reason. Then, on June 20, you again refreshed your website but failed to repent of your sin and shifted the blame to others for not understanding your intent. You also filled your web pages with those who gave you glowing reports, but again failed to recognize the thousands whom you have sinned against and are responsible for their turning away from God or causing emotional, spiritual, and mental damage. (Matthew 18:1–14)
We will continue to pray that God will open your eyes and that you will truly seek a repentance that would bring healing to those who gave you so much. Based on Matthew 18:17, we must follow Christ’s command; “And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” With this command of Christ, we are severing all relationship with you until we see by the public affirmation of your confession of specific sins and true repentance. If that time comes, Bill Wood and I would be praising our Lord and would be open to assist you in your effort of true repentance. We, too, are men under authority and are accountable to them. They have been prayerfully supporting us during the past 22 months. We are required to report our findings regarding these matters to those men and others as outlined in Matthew 18:17. This includes taking it to the Church to warn our brothers and sisters in Christ of your unrepentant sin.
Servants of a Just and Holy God,
Larne Gabriel
Bill Wood
Romans 12 (all)
2 Corinthians 13 (all)
Cc: Dr. Charles Swindoll, Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. Albert Mohler, Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Doty Murphy, Dr. Gary and Norma Smalley, Bill and Joy Wood, Dan Edds, Ken and Nancy Nair, Dr. Jack Taylor, Ann Graham Lotz, Rev. Franklin Graham, IBLP Board of Directors, Dr. Tim Levendusky, Recovering Grace, Christianity Today, Decision Magazine, Christian Post (CP), Religious New Service (RNS), World News Group (WNG), abused staff women from 1980 and ATI era.
Attached to this email is Dr. Chuck Lynch’s material on “Biblical Pattern for Reconciliation” [click to read] that I recommended for you to read last year and again last month. I am again providing you with that same opportunity. If you have questions about how to truly repent, Dr. Lynch would be a good person for you to contact at the Living Foundations Ministry: [email protected]. [Editor’s note: Dr. Lynch is supportive of this effort, but not directly involved in the meetings mentioned.]
6.24.2015 Cover letter to Dr. Tim Levendusky (and the IBLP Board)
6.24.2015 Cover letter to Dr. Charles Swindoll (and others who were copied)
Open comment to Bill Gothard:
Years ago at the Basic you were excited about the possibility of revival. I believe Solomon's prayer of old has application for the Church, for all believers, even today, namely, if God's people, which are called by His Name, would humble themselves and pray and seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then He promised to hear from heaven and forgive their sin, and heal their land.
May we all apply that passage of Scripture in the manner God wants each of us to apply it. I need to practice it in my life, and my prayer is all those who believe in Christ would as well.
These two men (Larne Gabriel and Bill Wood) are incredible examples of grace extended behind the scenes for so very long. The fact that these two (who had some of the longest history of being misused by Bill) took so much time to interact with Bill and give him the benefit of the doubt and explain true repentance and reconciliation looks like, speaks to their godly, long-suffering and forgiving and wise hearts.
Their cover letter to the current IBLP board is absolutely amazing. This last paragraph..."The survival of the Institute does not matter to God; He only cares about our hearts. We are commanded to love the Lord our God and be Holy and to love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31, Ephesians 1:4), in doing so we will show the world the true meaning of Christianity. IBLP/IBYC/Campus Teams are really about Bill and his ministry. This was made abundantly clear to us by Bill this past year. But we are commanded to put all our focus on Christ and His ministry. In John 3:30 John the Baptist says; “He must increase, but I must decrease.” You are at a cross roads, will the tombstone of IBLP say “They covered sin”? If so this will surely be the reason for its demise. Or if this sin is dealt with you could have a lasting legacy of proclaiming the truth and love of the One who gives us eternal life through His shed blood and set an example for the world?"
I am honored to have them represent me and all others who have voiced our stories so that change could happen and abuse on many, many levels would stop. Bless them. Their hearts are right, their hands are clean and judgement is the Lord's.
Thank you for that endorsement of my Bill and Larne. So many do not understand the scope of deceit and delay. You do.
Thank you, they are kind words, but they really need to go to a host of others we worked with and couldn't do without. There were five of us plus Bill Gothard in the Denver meeting, Bill & Joy Wood, Gary & Norma Smalley and me. We were supported in prayer and emotional support by the staff of RG, Tony, some of the abused women, former staff and family. This has been a team effort not just by us but others running in parallel with our effort, Dr. Doty Murphy, Tony and others.
Gary and Norma Smalley were amazing in the Denver meeting but for the last 10 months he had been sidelined with serious health issues. Our effort is not about us but is following the commands of Christ in seeking closure for Bill's and the Institute's abuse and in trying to show Bill it was not too late for him to confess his sins.
Most of all this I believe is in God's will and timing. He is the one who has prepared our hearts and minds in seeking Bill's repentance. He raised up RG which has provided a voice. For me He removed my anger and bitterness that I had harbored for years. He is the one who is to be praised and honored and given the glory. I was touched by LynnCD choice of scripture (2 Chronicles 7:14)in the first above post and how it truly applied to this endeavor and to a greater extent our country. Its never too late to repent but the time is short.
I forgot to mention the encouragement of Don Veinot, the late Linda Taylor, Ken Nair, Dan Edds.......
Larne,
This is excellent and so many appreciate your laborious work, all of your work. Thank you all for your Christlikeness in overcoming such grief and personal pain.
Can I ask for some clarification on a matter? In the board notes Tony G. Handed over showed Smalleys and Nairs received compensation to keep quiet, or it appeared. It has hurt me deeply because I had read each book Smalley wrote. I'm not intending to smear anyone but would like to give opportunity to bring clarity to the notes that give a poor perception of them.
Sue,
I just answered this question the other day on one of the posts but couldn’t find it so I’ll try again. I would not read too much into what they received. Bill made many promises to the 1970 era staff and often they were not kept. Many had good jobs, homes and businesses and gave it all up to “serve the Lord” at the Institute. No one on staff was paid much but the staff did get free housing. The Institute also did not pay into the Social Security system as it was not required for church workers till Reagan changed the law in the 80s. However, they did promise that they would pay $1000 for every year of service. Some were unaware of their benefits and left without receiving it, others had to ask.
What was paid could have been unpaid amounts from the funds promised above or for services rendered or other promised reinbursements. Gary Smalley and Ken Nair were both brought back to Oak Brook in May 1980 during the aftermath of the scandal’s exposure; the funds could be for expenses during that time or intellectual property that had not been paid previously. Personally from my contact with both of them I have a hard time believing it was hush money. The Board minutes are incomplete and very poor at best and don't say what the funds were for. Some of the 1980 women’s termination funds are listed and some are not. Bill and his family were always very secretive. I would be more concerned with what happened to the antiques, art, gold purchases and even donated property.
Larne,
Thank you for your reply.
I didn't know about gold etc... I hope clarity and transparency can be found. One year my husband and I gave a shocking $20,000 to Alert. We don't get that kind of money, ever, but wanted to give it. It's painful to hear of the money abuse as many lost much more than our amount. I bring it up because of the accountability we thought was there due to the teaching was not. He wiggled his way around it. Recently his brother is in the news for fraudulent behavior. It seems they deal with people in similar ways.
Back in the 70s when I was a volunteer I remember Bill talking about a "widows program". I remember making small donations specifically earmarked to that program.
Once on staff our offices were upstairs above Bill's office next to the finance department. I became friends with the husband and wife team who worked in that department. One day I asked them how they distributed the funds donated to the "widows program". Both had a puzzled look on their face and were completely unaware of any such program. Further questions revealed that all donations were deposited to the general fund regardless of earmark and there was no widows fund or program. That did not set too well with me, James 1:27.
Money has been a sign of "God's Blessing and Approval" to Bill and he is very stingy with it and made promises he seems to never have intended to keep.
Dr. Doty Murphy is an awesome man of God with great insight as a counselor. He taught us that everything isn't our fault, and Jesus will carry our pain.
Thank you for speaking out for the denigrated,for the suppressed,and those no longer able to speak.Revealed knowledge at times comes at great cost,and at great denial.It is with self restraint and needful but tough compassion that brought you to this point.Bill's disavowel of any wrongdoing in a specific way,puts unbelievable damage to the Body of Christ in a general way.It forces many that were suppressed down through the corridors of time where thy were violated,cast by the wayside,deemed of way too low a value to have legitimacy in the caste system.There,they must either relive the memory,desert God and derive meaning from a false,transient world,or cry out for deliverance from what many would categorically deny as being wrongful deeds,and wrongful teachings,under the contrived guise of a man only representing false,fallen,and pagan authority. It is to you that the mantle of destiny has been given for the potential of the Real Kingdom to be contrasted from man's imitation.Thank you.Bless you.
We cannot go back in time but if we could I would not be looking for a New Approach to Life. Even the phrase is pompous. Well over a decade lost to legalistic, judgmental, perfectionistic, graceless living.
Thank you Larne and Bill. You have done a wonderful thing in your longsuffering work with Bill Gothard.
Amen, if we could go back!!
Your comment made me think what is different in my life since dropping legalism...looking back when I was first saved, even though I had believed in Jesus as a Catholic from young age, I had friends of all kinds (including gay). I did not judge any of them. I was good to them all. Then legalism crept in with Gothardism teaching that there are certain people you do not hang out with. He was not talking about the obvious bad ones that would get you in real trouble (drug dealers, etc) but those who did not believe, act, dress, eat, go to church exactly like Gothard said. Then situations happened that caused us not to return to church but did not lose our belief in God. After finding this site and reading all the stories, the scales came off and I am free again to make friends outside the purview of what I believe. It is funny that those who were part of all that legalism we are no longer in touch with.
God bless and be with you both. This has had to be a very difficult step. Thank you for speaking on behalf of so many who have been damaged by him for so many years. I pray that the IBLP board and the Christian community as a whole will take this seriously. Most of all, I pray for true repentance and brokenness in BG's heart so that healing and restoration can happen-- which is God's heart. I truly believe, in regards to difficult people and painful situations that seem like they'll never be resolved: as long as there's life, there's hope.
How sad that it seems this man will go to his grave as a deceiver and abuser. I was at a retreat where the speaker spoke of his father/preacher who had an affair. he was a terrible father and all that was left to say after his passing was that "he was a good preacher"--which is what was etched on his tombstone. No mention of his character--just that e was a good preacher. As a preacher for 27 years and as a husband and father of 8 I cannot think of a worse epithet than that. I am afraid this is what we are looking at with BG--only it will be worse. So many have been hurt by him and he will not face his own sin and repent. Oh, how God's grace would come in as a flood if he would just humble himself and repent and seek restitution with all those he has offended. Te rest of his life could be so different-so blessed--as God and grace win.
Leave the man alone, he's like almost 80 years old. Good grief!
And so? What does his age have to do with his offenses? Are you saying that because he's 80 years old we should ignore all the allegations against him, including the sexual abuse?
but he will be millions and billions of years old after he dies, either in heaven or hell---can you not see that many do care that he not be in the latter!
The fact that BG is able to sound so erudite on his web site, while running around every act of contrition requested of him, reveal that he is definitely in possession of all of his intellectual faculties. That is all the more reason for him to make things right both with God and those he has offended.
The same could be said about old Nazi war criminals when justice finally caught up with them and they ended up being finally deported for their past war crimes. Justice knows no age and one's sins or crimes or misdeeds or whatever you want to call it. Payday and justice has no age limit.
really? has it come to comparing BG to Nazis? i think there is a slight difference in infractions, to say the least. AND, contrary to most opinions on this website, not everyone is so "hurt" by his teachings. I, for one, am very grateful for the things i learned and applied from the Basic. hence my moniker.
Bill Gothard is not being compared to the Nazis, he is being compared to a HOLY God, and he falls short just like the Nazis. Luckily, as Christians we know we can't compare our morality to other people, we know to compare it to God's Holiness.
Grateful, it was his age that was being compared to those found in South and North America years later. Not the crimes committed, but their ages. I myself think it best to steer clear of such comparisons, but the shoe does fit here.
Of course many things Bill taught were good. I'm having an offline conversation with someone that brought to mind Tony G's regard for Bill years ago being the same as yours - to the point of wanting to surprise Bill with that railroad car as a present, which, unfortunately, could never be given. That, as you know was due to the serious nature of the early scandal, and Bill's lack of dealing with it, as well as his bad behavior toward the young women back then.
i understand it was the comparison was age, but the age relative to the crime. Nazis guilty of mass murder, etc. should be hunted until the die.
I think we need not to be comparing this from a human viewpoint but from how God looks at sin. At 80 Bill has all his faculties, his failure to repent in and of itself is a sin. He has been scripturally confronted based on Matthew 18:15-17. His age does not matter to God as he has the mental capacity to make a deliberate decision, No Dementia, No Alzheimer's. God knows the intent of his heart and He will be the judge according as will all of us. I pray that Matthew 7:13-23 does not apply.
As the others said it was a comparison of age only in that elderly men were deported for past war crimes even though those the hurt were mostly dead and gone and some of the cases these men lived normal lives with families and children and grandchildren. I lived near one of these situations and the same sort of things you are saying about bill here, that the crimes should be dropped, they are now old men. My thought was about age only and the comments reflected the debate.
Thank you. Just, thank you. <3
Although it is not a biblical saying it nevertheless has a ring of truth, "You live by the sword, you die by the sword" .So many were held to a non-biblical standard that Bill himself didn't follow. So many lives ruined. So much fear. Bill should not get a pass.Larne and Bill Wood pleaded their cause with much grace, humility, love and righteousness. These two men are true men if God and leaders in the way Christian leaders are called to be.
Leslie, that was a saying of Jesus to Peter. It is in one of the gospels.
Matthew 26:52. I was quoting scripture and didn't even realize it, Thank God for 20 years of bible study. It has permeated my brain.
:-)
Wow! I sense this was very healing for all involved. Ruth is so proud of you I'm sure Larne. A couple of questions, what has been the response if any from any of the pastors this was sent to? Is Bill's new redo site in response to this?
We told Bill in our May 29th call we were ending our effort based on Matthew 18:17 and a letter would follow. But June was busy for Bill Wood and myself and all the formal letters were not sent till last Wednesday the 24th, and most were delivered Friday, Bill and the IBLP addresses got their on Saturday. So far we have not heard back from any of the pastors or news organizations. It would be unlikely we will hear back from the pastors as they were not supportive of the staff's efforts to bring Bill to accountability in 1980. In Dr. Stanley's case he was downright hostile to the staff's effort.
Regarding Bill's short lived new website on June 2nd which included the statements he provided us on May 28th, that was rejected by us on the 29th and was the reason for ending our relationship. We did tell him if he wanted to post it to go ahead and see the response, but we could not support the statement for his failure to confess specific sin. The testimonials in both of the new websites were from another rejected statement from December. Each of the statements he submitted to us seemed to only get worse.
It is interesting the June 2nd website, that was short lived, was put up the day before the Duggar's interview. We were no longer in contact with Bill at this point and did not ask him if there was any correlation. Bill firmly believes he did nothing wrong and views the footies thing and minor touching as his only failing. That is the reason for the testimonials. Through out the process both in Denver and in our conference calls he would read glowing letters written by some of the women who wrote stories on RG and others for the 80s. The problem was these were written during a different time and in a different context. Several of the women were not happy with Bill's misuse of the letter with us. This was a long lived practice of Bill's and he did it in a 1995 letter to me.
Larne, so he does not believe he did anything wrong w/respect to Tony G.?
To answer that would require a book. The short answer is no he does not. Requiring him to write an repentance letter for the slanderous 1981 "Agent of satan" letter he had written to Tony, his church and 19 others was a agreed to item in our Denver meeting. Shortly after leaving Denver Bill changed his mind and felt the contents of the letter should stand. We went round and round all last summer on this issue. In late summer I got a late call from Bill (about 12:30AM his time)and he wanted to move ahead with the letter. It was about the time of a IBLP Board meeting and I think something must have involved him at that meeting for him to make that late call and change his mind. Anyway for the next three months we went back an forth on the wording of the letter with Bill wanting to water it down.
In early November he did send the watered down letter to Tony and his old church, the letter was not acceptable to Tony and I don't blame him. The letter was to also go to 19 others on the original distribution list. When I started checking with a couple of those on the list to see if they had received a letter I was disappointed to see Bill had not followed through. His excuses were I don't have their address, I don't know how to use a computer and my assistant was gone. Finally in January, at least those that I had checked with, had finally received their letters. It was an exhausting process of beating our heads against the wall.
I guess I would like to know what Bill Wood and W. Larne Gabriel are wanting from IBLP in the area of restitution. This is mentioned in their cover letter to IBLP. Does anybody know the answer. Thanks.
Rick, Neither Bill Wood or I are looking for any financial restitution and have told that to Bill in writing, in person and on the phone!!! God has blessed both of us. We don't want a penny from IBLP/IBYC/Campus Teams or from Bill!
There are others who have suffered financial loss as a result of their time at the Institute and they might need to be compensated. But restitution can come in many forms, it means; "the restoration of something lost or stolen to its proper owner." It could be restoring a reputation by removing slander or innuendo about someone's character. Maybe it could be paying for counseling for some of the women affected by Bill. Or writing a repentance letter to parents as the result of sending someone home from one of the apprenticeship programs associated with ATI because they "didn't work out" like the recent story of Caleb.
The biggest restoration sould come in the form of spiritual restoration. Both Bill and IBLP should return the spiritual glory back to the free and loving Grace offered by our Lord and Savior as His unmerited favor. There need to be a complete overhaul of all of Bill's teachings and legalistic rules. By Bill and IBLP repenting and changing their thinking and behavior it could help in the restoration of the spiritual lives of those negatively affected by their ministry.
Help me understand, Larne-
What would you consider full and complete repentance on Bill's part? Acknowledgement of harassment and that his teachings are wrong? Anything else?
Also, what about the art, real estate, etc. you mentioned above?
And what do you feel would be adequate restitution?
Ruth, I'm not Larne but I would be curious to know, what might you consider to be required of Bill (or for that matter any person in Bill's situation) regarding repentance?
"In Dr. Stanley's case he was downright hostile to the staff's effort."Not too long ago at a friend's,I noticed a book written by him titled "Knowing God".This I would have to say,knowing full well his involvement in suppressing the scandal,minorly offended me.My immediate take...was his anger against the people trying to hold Gothard accountable a part of this process?I'm slightly cynical at anyone's claim of knowing God,and yet this is the most important mission for the human soul.I'm sure Stanley,well respected in the south,had some good points in his book.But what I'm wondering,is to what degree will God hold him accountable for his input in suppressing an investigation years ago of people not having the acclaimed public respectability,simply wanting to know the truth?A move costing quite a bit to Larne,Tony Guhr,Bill Wood,and others,...how does favoring Gothard's brilliant stonewalling,firing opponents,and causing a division perpetrating darkness result in "knowing God."?How were the victim's subsequent treatment enhancing their lives for this all encompassing end?I think I know the answer,but eternity will for sure decree it.
The case of Charles Stanley proves how, "a little leaven leavens the whole lump." In defending Gothard, Stanley shares in his sin, and caused people to stumble. But I don't think you are going to get any sort of confession out of him, or anyone else. The ramifications for his own ministry would be great.
Considering that Dr. Stanley is Biblically disqualified to be a pastor (he divorced his wife, not to mention that he initially agreed to step down if his marriage ended, but once it did went back on his word), I doubt he'd say anything against Gothard.
After charlie left his wife and refused to work on his marriage AND refused to step down from the pulpit as he said he would, I have never listened to his slop again. (Besides, if you've heard one of his sermons, you've heard em all). When he comes on the Christian radio station I sometimes listen to, I usually switch over to the classic rock station.......
I'm not supporting Dr. Stanley but I think his wife filed for divorce, she left him. I believe she wrote a letter to their church explaining why she filed for divorce. No matter who one is, divorce is a tragedy.
And no matter what her reasons were, helping him keep his job protects her alimony. The wife of a preacher has many burdens to bear, even in the split up. It's like those political divorces where the ex endorses the candidate (at the request of his campaign). What's she supposed to do? Ad insult to injury?
Andy's split with his dad over the divorce is all I need to know about whether the man lost his legitimacy or biblical qualifications to remain in the pastorate. A humble man would have stepped down and focused on reconciling hearts within his family, no matter how impossible that seemed. God never "moves on" and neither should those who hold themselves up in front of the church as examples of Christ-followers. "Follow me as I follow Christ and forget about the woman to whom I was betrothed"?
I totally get that Don, I was pointing out that he didn't file for divorce or leave him and I certainly not blaming her or their son at all or even taking sides on it. But, if we are going to be credible in discussing Dr. Stanley, we have to be accurate about what happen with his marriage and family.
BTW I still have not gotten one reply back from those on the "other side" of the cc: list. No real surprise but I didn't expect any either, its been 5 weeks.
Larne
Ruth you write, “What would you consider full and complete repentance on Bill's part? Acknowledgement of harassment and that his teachings are wrong? Anything else?” What we were looking for was complete admission of sin and for him to use the word sin and for him to name the specific sin. He was not wiling to do that. In Denver we would share our hearts at the hurt and offenses he caused and Bill would say “I don’t remember that but if you say I did that will you forgive me.” No tears, no emotion, no brokenness, all very insincere to us. But he did have lots of excuses and felt his intentions were misunderstood or we did not understand the circumstances of the whole situation.
“Also, what about the art, real estate, etc. you mentioned above?” I remember Ruth telling me that Bill loved Norman Rockwell art and the Institute bought signed lithographs and stored them in the vault. We never could find what happened to them. One of the women from 1980 talks about Steve discussing the Institute buying Gold, where did that go. I remember hearing Bill and Steve discuss some donated property in Washington State, being from Washington I asked about it, I got the evil eye and the topic was changed and the question not answered. Additionally there have been questions about the Northwood and the gray line between Steve’s holding and the Institute’s and the money spent on construction. The transfer of property was always thought to be dubious even thought Price Waterhouse said it met standard practices. It would probably be impossible today but a “forensic audit” should have been done post 1980. I don’t believe the Gothards got rich and they never lived an affluent lifestyle. But there was a gray line on the use of Institute property and transportation. I flew the family on several vacations nothing extravagant and they might even call them “business trips”. We flew to Williamsburg for vacation, the Northwoods for family Thanksgiving, we flew Steve in the Lear to Niagara Falls with the abused secretaries for lunch on “National Secretaries Day”.
“And what do you feel would be adequate restitution?” See above comment to Rick
Full and complete repentance on the part of Bill Gothard must include nothing less than a total renouncement of his false teachings -- necessitating where and why they are false -- a full confession of his refusal to hear those who have tried to open his eyes, and a confession of his proactive attempts to then destroy them. He must confess that he is not fit to be a minister on the basis of those false teachings alone, and he must therefore announce that IBLP should be totally dismantled. There could be no other conclusion. And certainly he must confess his deliberate coverup of the sex scandal and his own conduct toward the many girls over the years. I'm sure there are very few people who would agree that all of this is necessary -- but it is necessary -- if what we are concerned about is the Truth of Jesus Christ. The entire ministry is built upon a false foundation. Of course, I'm dreaming. Probably NONE of this will happen. It would appear that many of those who easily condemn Gothard for the sexual sins nevertheless continue to applaud his teachings. That, above all else, is why his teachings are going to infect many for years and year to come.
David,thank you for your comment,and what some people would call "brutally real" assessment of what is by no means beyond the boundaries God Himself would stipulate.It is somewhat consistent to say Gothard came across to mildly Calvinistic camps with a swashbuckling Armenian message.Yet in the realm of spirit put all kinds of darkness between those he influenced and the face of Jesus.In eternity comes not the Calvinist clause of what did happen and could not be helped,but more what could have happened,and indeed could still possibly happen,and was willfully prevented; prevented by agents hardening their hearts through pride,symbiotic dependence,self righteousness,propelling their adamic nature into a level only forgiven sheep could attain by grace.This by the arm of the flesh for 40 years.I will absolutely argue that the force sustaining this natural religion was not the Holy Spirit and in eternity will only judge those responsible with that much more severe judgment.
Say it, David Pigg!
I would also state that some of the greatest harm done by the teachings of Bill Gothard is the delusion of those who think it has helped them. To be under, "another gospel," is, according to Paul in Galatians, a matter of being, "bewitched," or, "mesmerized," by the enemy. Right now there are thousands who proclaim all of the help given to them by Gothard and IBLP, but the real Truth is, they are blinded to the Person of Jesus Christ, and deceived. I know Mormons and JW's, and even Buddists, who will tell you they have been set free by their religion.
Sorry, Larne, looks like we cross posted...... I understand you don't want financial restitution...you feel true repentance is for Bill to retract his legalistic teachings, as the primary issue?
True repentance is for him to specifically confess that sin, repent of that sin and ask for specific forgiveness of the person he offended in that committed sin.
I see. So Bill should both publicly and individually repent/renounce what you consider legalistic teachings?
Apologies... I am just trying to understand the central issue in the above letter, and it seems to me you and the Denver committee want Bill to repent of his teachings both publicly and individually. Am I correct?
Ruth we are not theologians and will leave the teachings issues to the experts. Although I personally have issues with his abuse of chain of command in controlling those around him. Our concerns are with Bill's lies, abuse of people in general and women specifically, his hypocrisy of double standards, broken promises and his failure to admit his sins and truly repent. He has left those he has damaged in the rubble pile of the past and only makes contact when he need to keep them quiet. Under the guise of a spiritual authority he shift the blame for his sins away from himself to those around him. He is a master salesman who in selling himself. He has been described and a classic narcissist. To him the "end justifies the means" and his end, is his ministry not the Lord's.
I am confused... I thought you said earlier it was his teachings that were abusive and so the teachings were the central issue that caused the abuse...
They are central to his abuse of power and control over people. But we were focused on his failure to repent for those abuses and to right the wrongs of the past. His legalistic material and definition of Grace lead to his followers never measuring up to his standard and thus continually needing of his interpretations of scripture which are often out of context.
God Grace is His unmerited favor that He give us, we have a direct line with Him. While we are still sinner, yet forgiven, our goal should be to become more like Jesus not to imitate Bill and his tastes.
Ruth, would you please provide the quote from Larne that you find perplexing?
And I was a little surprised by MatthewS' question to you, but now I completely understand. Would you please answer Matthew's question.
The letter is not confusing in what it stipulates. It was a collaborative effort. Larne is speaking only for his part, and there are many details we can't be told, for obvious reasons. Of course Larne would like to see restoration of proper biblical teaching, and could name many examples of Scripture twisting Bill has done, but is leaving the finer details of such to those with training, as I would do if I were in his place. Larne can correct me if I'm wrong here.
By the way, I went back to read Ron Henzel's e mail to the Gothard discussion, where in 1998, he and other men tried to confront Gothard on his unbiblical teaching making circumcision a moral requirement for Christians. They got the same evil behavior back then, 17 years ago, that the Denver committee is now being subjected to.
So back then, Gothard was unwilling to repent of false teaching. Now, he has severe Diotrephes type abuses he needs to repent of, as well as lecherous behavior toward scores of women, in addition to all the false teaching.
By the way, someone could have doctrine straight as an arrow and would still engage in sinful, abusive, behavior. Both need to be repented of, and while sometimes bad teaching covers up the behavior, when dealing with a hurt human being the best thing to do would be to repent of what you did to them specifically, and leave the changing of teaching to a more public audience.
I applaud those of you who have worked so diligently to follow the Scriptures. I pray that Bill can hear God's voice speaking to him.
One aspect I have thought about several times is the current board. Are they all "yes men?" Are there any cracks in their wall? I just can't understand the blindness to the facts (other than the fact that our enemy loves to steal, kill, and destroy).
Yes, interesting question about the Board. What's your take, Larne?
Ruth, are you troubled by Larne's and Bill's letter? Your questions seem to come from a position of not understanding anything that has transpired in these men's lives, or any of the accusations leveled against Bill Gothard, some of which caused him to lose his ministry. To show this intense interest, enough to cross-examine every little thing, but demonstrating no prior knowledge to give context to the letter or the answers, reads very strangely. I am quite curious about your honest viewpoint. If I was Larne, I would quit answering questions until you show a semblance of fairmindedness in answering those put to you.
Don, I totally agree with you.
I agree with you too. I've been suspicious of Ruth since I read her first question on a different article.
Yep, when I saw "Ruth"'s comments to Larne, coming across like a cross-examination, I reversed my surprise at MatthewS' comment to whoever this entity is. "Cross-examination" was exactly the term I was thinking of yesterday.
Ruth,
Your persistent cross examination type of questioning seems a bit off. You also have not replied to several questions that others have asked you. If you don't mind, perhaps you could share a little bit about your personal involvement or interest in this site? It's just that we have had in the past some suspicious participants who had, I believe, ulterior motives in their participation here.
Some people just like to ask a lot of questions and that is fine, but you don't seem to be engaging in a good faith back and forth thoughtful dialogue that one would expect from someone who had genuine curiosity.
That question is well above my pay grade. The board had had several shuffles in the past few years. They did place Bill on administrative leave which was prudent. I have been disappointed in their failure to pursue various issues with us or others in resolving the issues around Bill. They were aware of our meeting in Denver but neither they or the staff made any effort to contact us. When Tony sent each of them "The Package" in January 2014 it is my understanding that none replied. In 2006 I sent Bill a 26 page letter and a copy to the Chairman of the Board, Representative Sam Johnson (R TX)he never replied (Bill did).
Board members in general are part of the corporate or professional elite. They have much at stake in these issues including their personal reputations. They also have a fiduciary responsible to the State to follow the law. But more important for the IBLP Board and the IBYC Board of my era, as a Christian organization, they have a scriptural responsibility before God to follow the commands of Christ. Including Romans 12:18 to "live peaceably with all men." Proverbs is also full of admonitions to seek counsel and wisdom. But they seem to not want to seek the truth to the problem so they don't ask the questions. Just my observation. Twice I have made it known to Dr. Levendusky's assistant that we would like contact with him but we left the ball in their court.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I just can't fathom the fact that they are not involved, not communicating with you, etc. I am on the school board for our Christian school. If anything like this was going on with our Head of School, we would certainly listen and take action--as difficult as it would be.
I pray that they will also listen to the Spirit speaking to them.
Thanks again for your reply to my question.
Can somebody in general point me to the "new" teaching on "the inner brain?" I had to learn some neurology in PT school and subsequently and was curious about this.
Larne, Thank you for taking the time to engage with readers and answers questions. At this point you must be weary.
I have one question - I wish I could ask it in private message but we do not have that on RG so I will ask it publicly:
My husband and I were wondering the reasoning behind addressing Bill Gothard as Rev. in your letter. This question is not meant to be spiteful, stir up a hornets nest, or split hairs. The question stems from 2 thoughts:
1. Bill's propensity towards pride - we do not want to puff him up farther.
2. Is he actually ordained? Is it an honorary ordination?
If you do not answer I will understand that it is considered off topic. We mean it as a legitimate question. Thank you.
Julia,
You are just too sharp. It was intentional, he was a Rev. when I worked for him and from my understanding is ordained, but we only called him Bill. I also understand his Doctorate is honorary received during the ATI era. I'm not big on titles, some titles are use to intimate and set oneself above someone else. I'm not saying that is Bill's case. Based on Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 Bill is no longer qualified to be a teacher, elder ect. In Denver after a long discussion of Bill's sins Gary Smalley asked him if he was qualified and Bill admitted he was not. Maybe that is disrespectful on my part and I am willing to take that hit, but with his history of lying, covering sin and inappropriate behavior with women I personally can not recognize him as a doctor. He is just Bill to me and I've called him that since I first met him in 1973.
I've been so repulsed & disgusted over the past year in reading the 1st person accounts of him preying on women & young girls in order to totally dominate them. And I knew he's abusive & deceiving of the general population, also. I guess I just didn't realize how personalized his manifesting of what was once only potential abuse is. It's bg brand; the patterns are so much his personal trademark, and by now he's personified each of these abuses to new levels on this earth.
Oh Lord. "Your kingdom come, Your will be done" is the truth/plea that bg behaved/behaves in such antithesis to.
Thank you Nicole Gardner.
Larne and Bill,
I want to thank you both for your efforts to shed light on all of this.You have put so much into the effort to encourage Bill Gothard to repent and begin the healing process. You are remarkably kind and patient. If I had only a fraction of the patience that the two of you have demonstrated, I would be a better person for it. Bill Gothard may not realize it, but you have clearly done this out of love for him and the body. May the Lord open his eyes.
For those who want to see the track record of how Bill deals with confrontation here is part of an e-mail Ron Henzel wrote in October, 1998, to the Yahoo group, after getting the runaround from Bill on the subject of circumcision.
What we are currently seeing with the makeover of his website is just more of the same behavior - but this is an almost 2 decades old attempt. This e-mail was sent in October of 1998, after many, many months of futile effort to get BG to see how wrong his circumcision teaching was:
". . . Gothard's circumcision teaching was a major focus of the last
article I wrote for the MCO series on him, and it was a major topic
of our meeting on July 14. Twice Gothard attempted to assert that
he merely taught that circumcision was justifiable on medical
grounds. Unfortunately for him, we had a copy of what he wrote
right there in the room -- sitting on his lap (we'd faxed it to him
earlier). I asked for permission to read it back to him, and I did -- twice. He then fell into silence from about 11:00 pm to midnight.
You might say it was an awkward hour for everyone there.
During that hour, John Stephens piped up, and -- looking directly at
Gothard (who was sort of staring off into space) -- said, "We can
say that circumcision may be of medical value, but we can't say
it's a biblical requirement for Christians today." It seemed to be a
critical moment.
We felt that we had scored a major concession from IBLP, and we
didn't think we should rub Gothard's nose in it. He had given us his
word right before the meeting that he was "very willing" to change
his teachings if we could show where he was wrong. Now we had
the confirmation of John Stephens, his own Director of Seminar
Operations, sitting in an official meeting with Mr. Bill himself, that we had actually demonstrated that IBLP (in this case its
subsidiary, the Medical Training Institute of America (believe it or
not!)) was guilty of false teaching. Gothard could say nothing. We
expected no less than to see immediate steps taken following this
meeting to retract it.
But instead, a few days later we received a 20-page fax directly
from Bill Gothard in which he continued to *justify* his circumcision
teaching, mostly from a medical perspective. We responded with a
28-page letter, in which we pointed out that it was his use of the
*Bible* to justify circumcision that we had problems with (in his 14-
page booklet on the subject, only about 5 pages are devoted to a
medical defense of circumcision), and then we heard nothing for
weeks.
Finally, I called him on September 6, 1998, to ask him where we
stood. He informed me that he was preparing a 12-page article on
the subject of "The Role (or Place? (I forget)) of the Old Testament
Law in the Life of the New Testament Believer." At that moment,
he advised me, it was being reviewed by "biblical scholars" for
accuracy. He said that, since this is what he believed the whole
matter boiled down to, he needed to write this. I told him that I
looked forward to receiving it.
It has now been 45 days since I had that conversation with Bill
Gothard. We *still* have not received that 12-page article.
Perhaps it is still being reviewed by his "biblical scholars?" Guess
again. Just a few days after that phone call, it was mass-mailed to
*thousands* of his Basic Seminar alumni. MCO president Don
Veinot has since obtained a copy. In order for that to have
happened, it must have been on its way to the printers at least very
shortly after I spoke with Gothard.
It now seems pretty obvious to us that Gothard's agenda all along
has not been to allow himself to be held accountable for what he
teaches. Rather, it has been to get us to stop critiquing his
teachings in a public forum. In our September 6 phone
conversation, he even referred to concerns we've been raising (and
there are many others) as "peripheral issues." He made it very
clear that his main goal was to get us to take our materials off the
Web, and stop publishing them in print.
. . .
Meanwhile, I think it all boils down to accountability. I personally
believe that Bill Gothard is a lot like all of us, in that he is a mixture of right and wrong opinions. However, in Mr. Gothard's case, since he has not demonstrated accountability to anyone, there is no one to keep what is wrong with IBLP teachings in check. Lack of
accountability leads directly to lack of correctibility, and I believe that is what we're seeing in Bill Gothard's behavior."
The above was in 1998, and dealt with matters which started, I believe, in 1997. I may have linked to this already, but here is another evasion of accountability, from 2006: http://midwestoutreach.org/open-letter-to-bill-gothard-march-25-2006/
And here it is, some 9 years later. The proverb of he who hardens his neck after much reproof shall suddenly be broken, and there is no remedy, comes to mind.
I always appreciate your comments LynnCD,and always hope you will continue to comment."Bill Gothard is a lot like a lot of us,in that he is a mixture of right and wrong".It is the self righteousness in me that came from Adamic qualifications,Adamic credentials,and Adamic attainments that would tempt me to flaunt my dead corpse,long since judged, as living and deserving of recognition.And in Gothard's case,how dare anyone take that recognition away?"And here it is some 9 years later"another one of your quotes.Time,he is hoping will help his fleshly cause,maybe make people passive,as he keeps his Supporting Cast as intact as he can.But time will strangle the conscience,kill his spirit,and in the end burn up his dead works,and may we all hope against maybe the implications of perhaps the morally inevitable.The halting of his momentum,a most horrifying discovering of sad stories,anger causing bullying,will rest solely upon him alone.
Dave I posted those links from 1998 and 2006 to show how similar they are to this current attempt to confront Bill. And also Ron Allen's letter. Allen was concerned as far back as 1973. That's 42 years ago and predates Bayly's involvement. I did not mention Fisher and a few others.
You say poetically what is happening. Nothing has changed, and time is running out.
I'm reading through the Old Testement this year with the help of Daily Audio Bible. I am amazed at all the times God tells The Prophets and leaders of the Jews He is going to judge them or destroy them. They repent and are spared till they rebel again. Finally in 70 AD they are destroyed and sent all over the world. But God did not forget them, their identity was kept and in 1948 they were restored as a nation even in their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah. That is still available for Bill but first he must repent.
I love the verse LynnCD quoted in the first post above. I have personalized it to Bill but it also applies to me. "If Bill , who is called by my name (a Christian) would humble himself and pray and seek my face and turn from his wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive his sin and will heal his heart". It's never too late, till we each take our last breath.
In keeping with those trying to hold Gothard accountable, here is another one, probably linked to on this site somewhere. Ronald Allen was concerned about the false teaching since 1973: http://midwestoutreach.org/there-you-go-again-bill-gothard-and-the-facts/
Wow..I read through all these comments...Our daughter 'served' at headquarters and Bill begged us to let her stay. She wanted to leave and did. She was at Indianapolis also and was an older student when there.
She was not allowed to work in the garden...which she wanted...but had to clean inside...never got to work with the juveniles..which is why she went. We were livid when she was accused of eavesdropping while she was working. I sent a Dave Hunt book for her to read and that was confiscated and we never got it back.
It was not a good experience for her. Now she is married, thankfully and loves the Lord...no kudos to IBLP experiences.
Jeanne, I don't know if you or your daughter have spent much time here, but if not - I would highly recommend reading even just a few of the stories shared by so many women up under the blog's tab heading "The Gothard Files>Sexual Misconduct". It will likely make put even more context/healing on your daughter's difficult IBLP experience - seeing that she was not alone in her treatment, yet in spite of her mistreatment was perhaps prevented from experiencing even more potential abuse had she been working in a more "desirous" position during those months?
My limited personal experience with IBLP was attending a seminar in Houston (1981?) as a college student until many yrs later my husband and I arrived to pastor our precious church after it's former pastor (strong ATI advocate/family) in just his 18mos as their minister had left a long string of people battered and wounded in his militantly legalistic wake. Reading this blog has given me so much more insight into what our dear church family experienced at the hands of that man's false teachings and leadership.
I praise the Lord for so many brothers and sisters in Christ who are willing to bravely share their stories and also firmly stand up to inform the church at large of the need and efforts to call Bill to repentance. They will likely never know (until Eternity) the impact their courage is having on so many of us fellow Believers. May He continue to encourage and bless their efforts!
Thank you, Recovering Grace!
BG has had well over 40 years of accumulated sins, both doctrinally and morally. Every attempt to bring BG to repentance has been met with either 1) a cold refusal or 2) a feigned "repentance" only to be followed by a clear return to his old ways.
At what point should those who have valiantly tried, again and again, to bring BG to repentance, simply say "no more" and walk away?
If BG's actions aren't the sign that God has turned him over to a reprobate mind, then seriously I don't know what anyone would have to do to be turned over in such a way.
We're told in Scripture to reject a divisive man after the first and second warning. BG has had way more than two warnings. It's time to "let go and let God" punish him for his sins. Keep RG up as a resource for former IBLP/ATI people who are struggling--absolutely. But don't waste time calling for BG to repent--he's had numerous warnings and numerous chances and nothing has happened.
Perhaps Bill Gothard lives inside his own universe where he feels called by God to continue to "stand alone" in what he perceives is his calling. That may be the only thing he has left to live for. Sounds delusional to me.
Have all legal avenues been explored and taken? Maybe his next mission could be to fellow inmates, where he could show them a "new way of life".
It's quite common in Christian circles to claim "persecution" whenever someone opposes one's teachings.
Bakker, Swaggart, Tilton--every one of them played the persecution card. In Fundamentalist circles BJU, Hyles, PCC did so too.
And it works quite well, since the followers are conditioned in believing that "the world" (which, quite conveniently, also includes any Christian not in agreement with the teacher) "stands in opposition to the works of God", and thus any disagreement is easily turned into "persecution".
As far as him ever seeing prison, I doubt so. When you have a "he said, she said" case, any decent attorney (and BG can afford better than just decent ones) can easily create reasonable doubt. Plus you're probably dealing with statute of limitations issues too.
Sigh. I remember taking on that attitude myself in the day, hurting many in the process. Ugh.
Sarah, we all stumble in many ways. This is a new day; don't be downcast. If there are people you should speak to, then do it as God brings them to mind. The same grace that set the Apostle Paul, who persecuted the Church, free is available to all of us who need it, so not only don't be downcast, but be greatly encouraged.
Mark, so does this mean that all beliefs are equal and not worth scrutinizing?
Grateful, since Mark hasn't answered yet, what did he say that made you ask such a thing? I couldn't find anything that he said that would generate that kind of question. Just curious. Perhaps Mark will answer soon . . .
i simply meant that i interpreted Mark's take as somewhat cynical - "all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" - so there is truth and that truth will cause one to be persecuted. The question is what is truth, is it not? so how does one determine who is playing the "persecution card" and from what perspective is that determined?
Thanks. Personally, I guess Mark implied those mentioned (Swaggart, etc.) themselves attempt to shut down scrutiny of their beliefs by falsely crying foul (ie, claiming they are being persecuted) when what may be going on is merely an honest critique of their beliefs and teachings.
A long time ago, the "heads I win, tails you lose" aspect of this was pointed out to many of us. In Bill's case, if people opposed him it was because they were bitter against his higher standards, and he thereby claimed the high moral ground and escaped scrutiny of his teaching at the same time. But if he opposed someone, it was because he was morally superior and they had inner problems, such as sexual lust or a lust for alcohol. Those last two are real examples from Bill.
Hence, I think your question to Mark ought to be directed at Bill Gothard himself, who has been known to vilify those who dared to scrutinize his teachings and actions. I guess Mark would say something like, "I think scrutiny is good, but when you do these men pull out the persecution card."
To follow up, Bill's standard is Scripture, being Protestant. The method of determining whether he teaches according to Scripture is to be a Berean and see if what he says is what Scripture actually teaches. Knee jerk bitterness accusations and screaming persecution at honest people examining his teachings as Bereans would has been Bill's stock in trade for years. Regarding his teachings, think Ronald Allen, Joe Bayly, Richard Fischer, Ron Henzel, Don Veinot, and many other Christians who have been vilified by Bill and his devotees. Regarding Bill's behavior, think Tony Guhr and the Agent of Satan letter. Observe Tony's refusal to take what would have been several months of pay back then, and his silence about the issue for years. It was not at Tony's insistence that letter was published again.
Bill was a master at vilifying in order to escape scrutiny, and a thoughtful reading of the Bible will show that circumcision is not the only moral choice Gentile believers should exercise, and the Bible says nothing about its supposed "health benefits." Married couples are not being more godly by abstaining from sex two weeks out of the month, and the OT does not even teach that, supposing we were still under those laws, which we are not! Those are just two examples among many of Bill's unScriptural teaching.
So! Scrutinize the teachings by examining Scripture, but don't be surprised if you do that when you get smacked down for being bitter, or for persecuting him.
I think the better question is not "what is truth" but what is defined a persecution? Real persecution is what is happening in the middle east and Africa where Christians are loosing their Churches, homes and lives and have to flee for their lives just because they are Christians. Having an honest discussion and critique of either teaching or personal behavior is not persecution. The problem is that Bill and his followers have not really seen real persecution even if they are crying that they are. That really is an insult to those currently over in the areas of the world where this is happening. That should be the standard.
Rob: Good point. We really have no clue about persecution in America (I don't anyway).
I've been busy at work so I haven't had the chance to respond.
I responded to the comment that BG may be living in his own universe and feels the need to "stand alone" against the attacks on IBLP. My comment was sharing examples of other "Christian ministers" who, when their doctrines and practices were revealed to the general public, inevitably played the "persecution" card. When I had discussions at work with other Christians who followed these people, you simply could not convince them that their gurus weren't being "persecuted by Satan".
I'm not saying don't expose error. I'm saying that if they persist, it's often because they've convinced themselves (and their followers) that they're under Satanic attack, and that is a sign that they're Godly.
Mark, I understand and followers of different gurus that are using this excuse that they are under satanic attack are doing a disservice to all Christians, especially those in the middle east and Africa. The next time one of either your co-workers or friends pipe this nonsense, ask them this." are they loosing their homes, Churches, jobs and lives? do these people have to run for their lives?" If not, then I would point out to these brainless wonders that they are not being persecuted at all. It is only in their heads. Tell them if they really desire real persecution, they need to move to the the middle east and join their brothers and sister there. I am sure ISIS will help them realize what real persecution is and isn't. The fact that Bill mention "Foxes book of Martyrs" and that this influenced Bill is beyond the pale. He has no real clue here. It is insulting. This is all in his head and he and others like him are using this as some kind of sick excuse to cover up their own bad behavior and teaching. There is an interesting Patheos article I think in Progressive Christian channel that talks about a Christian persecution complex and that too many use it. I don't agree with a number of reasoning it used but Bill definitely has this persecution mentality and it is doing a disservice to real Christian persecution.
I'd see this as a little bit like the issue of stolen valor. There is such a thing as genuine persecution and there are those who have truly paid a price for their faith. It is an attractive ploy for abusive leaders to steal that honor and pretend they are suffering from false attacks - this is a good tactic to shore up their fan base as well as sow confusion. It is a deeply wrong and dishonorable tactic and ought to be recognized and rejected as such.
Larne Gabriel and Bill Wood have indeed been admirably long-suffering and patient with Gothard, but he has trampled their pearls for 40 years. Gothard is thoroughly sociopathic. Not to be critical of these fine gentlemen, but I think this site and the readers here should focus on the victims and the currently brainwashed, and not on trying to get Gothard to repent.
I see that a number of well-known Christian figures were CC-ed on the letter: Charles Swindoll, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Anne Graham Lotz, Franklin Graham. Could somebody explain their connection with the situation?
Sharon good question. I don't want to lump those in the distribution list in the same group.
We had different reasons for including who we did. Dr. Stanley took a very aggressive stance against what he called was a "rebellious staff" in a Headquarters meeting following the 1980 scandal. Dr. Swindoll, Dr. MacAuthur and Dr. Taylor were confronted with the facts and would not get involved.
Dr. Levendusky and the IBLP board were for obvious reasons.
Both Graham's and Dr. Albert Molher are very respected Christian leaders with no affiliation with IBLP. They are outspoken and are calling America to repentance and revival. I thought they were a great place to start a discussion of calling other pastors and leaders to set the example of repentance and truthfulness.
The third group was Christian news organizations that we hoped would pick up on the story. Others on the list were supporters of our effort, past staff and my church.
Twenty USPS Priority mail packets were sent out and another 15+ email packets were also sent. Some of those were distributed further to their contacts.
Larne
Thanks for the explanation.
Larne, World Magazine has done a fabulous job of reporting, in spite of the fact that Gibbs and Gothard declined to be interviewed. Tim Bayly's piece was good reporting and had good editorial comments. I hope Al Mohler comments. Of course, MCO has issued a call to repentance, saying outright Gothard is not beyond reclamation - that was some time ago.
It appears to me Gothad's website is a confession, and an exercise in plausible deniability by gaslighting and the several testimonies of "it didn't happen to me so it didn't happen" all in one, and your response is true repentance has not occurred.
I hope you get some more response, but meanwhile, your remarks are encouraging to many, and so much has already been accomplished.
Today on Swindoll's radio broadcast they are covering a series on 2 Timothy. Chuck told a story of how, years ago, he had led the public exposure of a sexual abuse case within their church where there were 64 victims. The decision to deal with the sin publicly was met with resistance but Swindoll prevailed in dealing with the problem publicly. He told of how he had gotten a letter from one of the victims thanking him for having dealt with the problem appropriately.
Perhaps someone (like one of BG's direct victims) could reach out to him and implore him that, as a noted leader in the Christian community, he needs to take up the mantle yet again and pursue the difficult course. It needs doing.
That is what Larne, Tony and the others that were meeting with Bill trying to do. Bill obviously doesn't think he did anything wrong and these guys were trying to get Bill to admit to stuff that is 40+ years old. If you read through the RG testimonies, there is one where the dad went to Bill and confronted Bill. Again Bill denies it and doesn't think he did anything wrong. Bill should be going to those he wronged by his conduct, not victims going to Bill. That is backwards and that is what is wrong here. Bill on his current web site stated that "others were offended". That is putting the blame on others, they were offended, not Bill being sinful. That is the key difference here. That is why your idea isn't going to happen. If he isn't willing to admit and change on things that are 40+ years old, then he isn't going to admit to anything after that time frame.
Sad,
I could not find the series you were talking about could you provide a link to the specific sermon.
Thanks,
Larne
Hi Larne
The current series is called "Paul's Swan Song: A study of 2 Timothy", and I believe it would be located within the podcast called "Tender Words of a Mentor" as that covers the dates my local station carried it.
http://www.insight.org/broadcast/?ga=topnav-broadcast-L2
Click on "Entire Series" button and it should bring up the podcasts. Hope this can help.
Sad,
Thank you currently painting will listen later.
Larne
Larne and Bill, you and all who have supported you in this effort are to be commended. It is obvious to me the only hope left for BG is prayer. "With men this is impossible, but not for God. With God all things are possible."
One thing is certain, when he stands before his Lord, there will be no more room or possibility for pretense.
I agree.
I would also add that if BG once again tries to "discuss" this issue with Larne or Bill or anyone else, they should firmly inform him that there is nothing more to "discuss".
Instead they should accept no less than the following:
1. An open and public admission of guilt of sexual misconduct.
2. An open and public retraction of his teachings, including an open and public letter to IBLP requesting that it cease operations (if he is running the show behind the scenes at IBLP, he can prove his sincerity by closing up shop, selling its assets, and donating the proceeds after all bills have been paid to charity).
3. A subsequent permanent resignation and withdrawal from public ministry (to include taking down his new website).
I agree. You have made explicit what is essentially the unwritten subtext of my comment. Thanks.
I don't hold out much hope, apart from divine intervention, we will see that kind of repentance from Bill this side of the grave, but I hope this open letter and the other testimonies at this site will serve as a warning and be instructive for the naive who might otherwise fall for Gothard's lies or those of another like him.
Mark R, I would suggest that before the funds are donated to charity that they are first used to set up a fund that would provide counseling for those that have been wounded by Bill's actions and teachings.
Not only would it offer practical help for so many wounded Sisters and Brothers, but also show them that Bill TRULY understands how evil his choices have been. If Bill and IBLP were offering to pay for counseling, it would be obvious that he no longer considers all this just simple misunderstandings he is brushing away and "lost his ministry" over.
I'm OK with using the funds for that, it would be helpful.
What I didn't want is for BG to get the idea that, since the gig is up, let's shut things down and pocket the profits. (It wouldn't surprise me that he would try that and then stiff his creditors.)
Interesting article with some parallels to the context here. I keep thinking of the saying, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." http://josephcphillips.com/2015/07/of-course-bill-cosby-is-guilty/
@LynnCD I was just about to add the Bill Cosby factor. Absolute power does corrupt. I admired Bill Cosby so much as a child growing up watching the Cosby Show and the news coming out about him now is just awful. Much the same with Bill Gothard except I never really admired Gothard. It's so sad that people at IBLP are still holding on to Gothard written material.
While the desire to bring Bill Gothard to some sort of repentance is an admirable one, in my opinion it's wasted effort. The proper course of action at this point is to start looking for actual evidence of criminal activity by Bill or IBLP, whether it be tax evasion, child abuse, or recent molesting of an underage youth within the statute of limitations, and bring the hammer down. Find evidence of a crime and have the whole organization prosecuted. That's the way forward, and by God it is long overdue.
Dash, I respectfully disagree. Bill may never repent, but that does not make the process of Matthew 18 an exercise in futility. That is why I commented directly to Bill, given that he put up his new website which discredits testimony of things he has admitted occurred while attempting to reinvent himself.
My difficulty with this is while we are part of the company of believers down through the ages, my understanding of Jesus' words "tell it to the church" is they are directed to a particular assembly, and what is going on here is something "not exactly that." BUT, the mediation meetings in Denver, like all previous attempts to confront Bill, have gone down in a similar fashion, with a stubborn refusal to be accountable, followed by the publication of nonsense demonizing his opponents. And there does need to come a point where enough has become enough, so I agree with Larne's and Bill's letter to Bill. At some point you need to walk away.
That said, the public figures who received this information may not choose to issue public statements, but World Magazine has done a fabulous job of reporting, along with other publications, and Bill has already resigned, so given all that they may choose to stay out of this matter. My opinion is Bill has already condemned himself by admitting to behaviors he would call "defrauding" and others call "sexual harassment." Any thinking person who knows that can see through that web site, and those who are still defending Bill are left with arguments that his behavior to the scores of young women were "not that bad." And this says nothing of much of his teaching . . .
That's the rub here, what is meant by Church and how that is defined. Most para-church teaching ministries really have no over site or under any type of authority from either a particular Church or denomination. So there is no control over what is being taught or behind the scenes behavior. But what would you like some of these people do? IBLP will say he is no longer with us. His own church will say he isn't there any more. One would hope that the particular people like Charles Stanely would issue at some kind public apology for their previous support. Matt 18 is probably best viewed in that Jesus was talking about a local Church than a broad based type para-church ministry. Again, if there are laws broken in any manner, then those that directly affected by his behaviors should if able to and with in statue of limitations. It seems though that a lot of this falls outside statue of limitations.
Your right para-church organizations are accountable to no one other then the laws of the state they operate in and Federal employment/tax laws. Most have boards which hand picked by the organization that fully support the founders or organization's goals and might even be beholden to the organization. In the case of "IBLP type groups" the founder could have personal information regarding the board members that would insure their compliance to the wishes of the founder.
Regardless of their ability to cover and justify sin from the public they will never be able to cover sin from God and those consequences will last for eternity.
Larne, I'm sure you've already seen Bill's newest statement that was published today? [http://billgothard.com/a-new-statement/] I'm curious what you think of it. I know we're hoping/praying for Bill to be truly repentant, but I also know it will consist of more than just words to appease the public. Has he attempted to contact you since his most recent change of heart? I noticed with interest that the experience he mentioned occurred one day after RG published your statement to the Church, but he's just now publishing it. So that left plenty of time for him to make things right with everyone involved.
"everyone" meaning the team of people working with him towards repentance
Thanks Bev I had not seen it. Currently digesting the statement. "very timely"
So are you saying that Bill didn't contact you or the team of men who have been working with him for over a year and a half to tell you of his sudden change of heart?
Bev,
Its been over three weeks and I have not been contacted regarding the statement till today. Nor have I received any contacts from the "other side", (I have had other contact with Alfred.) After I posted my last reply to your question Alfred sent me an email, surprised I had not seen it. I've checked Bill's site a couple of times but previously when I clicked on "a further statement" it was the main statement. I had no reason to check again. Alfred said it was posted on the 10th.
Thanks for that clarification, Larne. I'm not sure which point is more ironic... that fact that Bill has "repented" without bothering to tell the repentance/reconciliation committee, or that his statement has been up for 10 days and hardly anyone noticed. I would hope that if/when Bill is sincere in his repentance, he would tell you and the committee personally, since you all have been so kind to spend hours working with him for the last year and a half.
When you read the latest "further statement" you see no repentance. What you see is a claim that his only fault is not loving enough, i.e., not being good enough. The man is entangled in works based righteousness, he does no evil, but only lack in goodness. It is a wicked shame that so many followed a man so confused about the Gospel and the Truth the Spirit is here to convict us of: righteousness, sin and judgment.
I respectfully agree with both Dash & LynnCD, (I think). Repentance and legal accountability are two wholly separate issues.
BG may never repent, and I will guess even probably won't. That doesn't mean people like Tony or Larne or Bill W shouldn't work toward that end. If that is their calling, they should do so to the extent of the calling, recognizing (as I'm sure they do) that "results" are not their responsibility. When their work or calling is complete – now or in the future – they can rest in the knowledge that they did what was needed – well and faithfully.
BG may or may not ever repent; either way, he is still legally responsible for his actions. I see no reason for him and his organization not to be held accountable to whatever extent is practical in terms of available evidence and witnesses within the statute of limitations and all. Only a minute fraction of what he's done over the years in terms of employment practices, treatment of minors, or bookkeeping would even come up at this point, but that's not to say that it's not worth some effort to tell the victims, the bystanders, the onlookers, potential future abusers, the church, and the general public that his actions were not only unconscionable and immoral, but that many were also illegal and will not be tolerated.
From a practical standpoint, there may not be prosecuting resources comparable to potential charges, so the likelihood of legal accountability may be about that of repentance, but the point is that it is not meaningless to pursue either. On THIS side there could be either, neither, or both. But it's all okay because Jesus wins in the end, and that is really the final word.
Amen!
Yes, you are right. I should have emphasized it is both/and not either/or.
I agree with Dash.
Larne, Tony, Bill W, et al have gone well beyond what most Christians would do in attempting to bring BG to repentance. For that I admire them and applaud their efforts. But once again BG refused to admit that his teachings were out of line with Scripture and that his practices were as well (not to mention potentially illegal under secular law, either with the sexual improprieties or with not paying required employment taxes). At this point, as I've said before, they should make no further attempts to persuade him, and if BG makes another attempt at a "meeting", they should accept nothing less than a full admission of specific wrongdoing and a full lifetime withdrawal from ministry.
The statute of limitations may have run on a lot of his stuff, but there is NO statute of limitations on tax fraud. If there's enough money for the IRS to bring a case, they'll do it.
(The only down side is, given the political party in charge, any attempt to enforce the law will be seen as "persecution"--yes, I used that word again--and, this time, irreligious folks who think the Government is simply too large may want to support his cause simply to advance their interests)
I see where believers have a role as stated in Mathew 18, but there IS also room for the rule of law.
Doug Philips would deny to his deathbed but with an accusor with credible evidence this will force some real change in his head. That is going to speak. Some are too stubborn. David wouldn't fess up for a year and finanlly God sent Nathan to help him with the truth. I see the law helping in a similar way.
Its been 52 days since Bill and the other received our Matthew 18:17 and still no replies from the "other side", what a "surprise"! However, Billy seems to have another new statement on his billgothard.com website, at least I do not recall seeing it, called "An Intreaty". It follows his previous two statements in the "A Further Statement" section. He starts out with the following statement;
"The Apostle Paul instructs us to follow his example as he followed Christ. He was no stranger to persecution, reviling and defaming. He explains how he responded to each one, “And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat” (I Corianthians 4:12-13).
My purpose in this intreaty is to give honor to the name and reputation of the Lord Jesus Christ for His further work in my life, and to free those whom I deeply care about from the mental, emotional, physical and spiritual damage of a false conclusion about my intentions in working with youth.
The Meaning of My Name
I will never forget the day that my mother said to me, “Billy, do you know what your name means?” I was about 10 years old at the time and I answered “no.” She then said, “Your name means a great protector.”
From that day forward I purposed to live up to the meaning of my name, especially in protecting young ladies."
That did not work out too well for the "young ladies" on his staff.
Larne
Rewriting history. Frustrating. I honestly did not expect a response from the evangelical names you forwarded the packet to, on account of the fact that Gothard has already resigned and has issued a confession of sorts. But for him to continue on like this on his website is pathetic. It would be nice to rejoice, but one can't do it for this.
But, you can rejoice for all the young people who were abused in various ways - that they see that they were not the only ones, and that there are people who care enough to deal with their concerns. Perhaps many of them wound up being shunned, and they have a refuge in this site. In that you can rejoice.
Oh, I remembered what I want to say again - Bill set rules for conduct for himself, so that he never had "relations" with other women, among other rules. It appears because he believes he obeyed these outward rules, that therefore he has lived up to his name. That his righteousness is external. But that is not what righteousness is, not where it comes from. The just shall live by faith. It is out of the heart that wickedness comes forth. No rules can quell this filthy fountain. Everybody can see it but him, apparently, that he was enjoying lust and control over young women he thought were pretty. He wounded many of them to the point of needing a lot of counseling to recover. But because he obeyed some rules of conduct he set for himself, he has lived up to his name, when he has not.
Does anyone have any story of Bill Gothard encouraging and supporting one of the young women under his "protection" in the development of a healthy romantic relationship with any young man? If so, were those limited to young men whose fathers Bill wanted to help "find a wife for his son" or was there a real encouragement of holy covenant love?
I ask because it seems he worked hard to throw cold water on every attraction at HQ, while taking the place of father, confidant and comforter for all those lonely girls. If that was the universal pattern, it becomes even more clear that he was protecting them from all males while keeping them for himself. When you think about his teaching about "purity" he really acted as if all sexual attraction was evil and that the evil was blocked by prevention, suppression and repression of sexual intercourse.
Don, in addition to seeing attraction as evil, there may have been a motivation to keep as many single people single as long as possible for a volunteer work force. Someone told me some time back that Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard parted ways on this matter - Doug encouraging young marriage, of course. The person told me Phillips' position set Gothard off. This was from someone who had a lot of contact with IBLP leadership some years back.
It's also a usurpation of the very teaching on authority he promoted. The hypocrisy of this at the TC, as outlined by one who lived it, was the final coffin nail in this institution for my thinking on the subject.
This is both sickening and saddening to hear.
I cannot imagine what is going on in your heart and mind.
I'm both angry, very angry, and scared, very scared at what lay ahead for this man.
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, I will repay.
"and to free those whom I deeply care about from the mental, emotional, physical and spiritual damage of a false conclusion about my intentions in working with youth"
So is BG in his statement offering up "forgiveness" to those for having stepped forward with their stories and subsequent allegations?
*forgiveness for the damage they've caused?
NO! He is not. He is worrying about his supporters being deceived by the accusations. He does not want them damaged by believing he is a sexual harasser because he knows in his heart that he is pure and innocent and wants his 200 remaining supporters to be free to believe it as well. He only has compassion on those who may remain on "his side". He has no real compassion for his accusers or those of us who would hold him accountable or see him fully repent.
It makes me wonder if his followers will see cracks in his logic.
Perhaps it will make some question.
I cannot imagine what the board is thinking. How can they not see he is loosing it? It would be an awful place to be in.
To David:
He may be offering up 'forgiveness' to them for their 'bad report'.
How incredibly pathetic.....And the wheel goes round and round and...
"forgiveness" for the damage they've caused?
It shows a real break with reality. Pretty sick thinking.
"and to free those whom I deeply care about from the mental, emotional, physical and spiritual damage of a false conclusion about my intentions in working with youth"
TRANSLATION: It is all your fault for coming to a wrong conclusion about my intentions. But -- I forgive you for misjudging me. Bill Gothard is apparently the most misunderstood human being who ever lived.
"The Apostle Paul instructs us to follow his example as he followed Christ. He was no stranger to persecution, reviling and defaming. He explains how he responded to each one, “And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we intreat”
Is BG likening himself to the Apostle Paul as being "persecuted"?
Bill needs to go to the middle east to see real persecution first hand. He needs to pay a visit to ISIS and I am sure they will grant his wishes. He gives new meaning to the saying "legend in his own mind".
Short answer, David, absolutely. And with the gall to claim it's for the sake of Christ, not the sake of Bill.
If he had not done so much damage, Gothard's attitude would be laughable. I don't think I've ever encountered a better example of someone who absolutely loves darkness rather than light. He gives new meaning to Hitler's theory of, "The Big Lie:" Tell a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. In short, the product of a twisted mind.
It's the mind of the Pharisee. Make extra biblical rules for conduct, and if, in your mind, you live up to your rules, you are righteous. He cannot see the abuse of women because in his mind, he obeyed his rules, so that women were not abused (but they were). The only thing he may think he is guilty of is getting very close to the boundaries of his rules - ie, seeing how close he could get to crossing them without crossing them.
Besides all the women who came forward told others "who were not part of the problem nor part of the solution." For SHAME!!! (I'm being sarcastic.) Did anybody catch the Duggar daughters saying that line about people talking about them who were not part of the problem nor part of the solution? Their parents used their show, and their children to teach Gothardism. and I see on facebook, and other places, damnation of speaking about Josh Duggar and how Jim Bob handled it.
The problem with shaming people talking about the Duggars, or Gothard, is the Duggars set themselves up as public figures who were teachers and leaders of practical Christian living, and unfortunately, their children were dragged into it. People have the right to scrutinize AND TALK about public figures who set themselves up as teachers and leaders. We have the right to evaluate not only their teaching, we have the right to evaluate and speak about their conduct. The Bible calls for such evaluation and scrutiny in the epistles.
But all this to say - Gothard's sickness is based on his Pharisaical nature - he didn't violate his own rules about women, and those who are speaking out against what he did are violating his other teachings, namely, they are revilers and they gossip, because they are "not part of the problem or part of the solution."
He has insulated his mind with Pharisaical rules, and I pray that this evil fortress would be smashed.
And it now appears that the hackers of the infamous Ashley Madison website (the one where you supposedly can have an affair with them as the intermediary) have released their list.
And Josh Duggar is on the list. Having not one, but TWO accounts. One for himself and one for BG, perhaps?
(It was on my Facebook feed and the only site on there that appears to be credible is Daily Kos; as they are very left-leaning that is even suspicious but I've not heard of the others)
What in the world is that? I don't travel in those circles much, I'm afraid - can you unpack this for me as to what it means?
Ashley Madison is a website offering married people the ability to have affairs. It's quite well known. Their founder even had the guts to appear as a featured guest at my former church (along with a "sociologist" who was openly bi-sexual, the pastor, and a counselor who battled sex addiction in the past).
Recently hackers accessed their website and obtained customer transaction details. They threatened to post the information to the Internet if the company didn't shut down the site.
Today they started releasing the data they hacked. Turns out Josh Duggar had TWO accounts with them, having spent nearly $1,000 on their "services". On his second account he purchased the $250 "affair insurance policy" (if you don't have an affair within three months they refund what you paid less the $250).
The sad part is that Anna will, as Gothardism has taught her, take all the blame for not being the Godly wife she should have been. And will continue to defend him (and have more babies with him) to the end (even if or when he brings home an undesired consequence).
I just looked up information about this. I have had people angry with me for my views on this subject - on facebook, but I usually made sure to confine my frustration with the parents, and sorrow for the children. I was very sorry that Josh had to quit his job at the FRC. Now, I'm glad he's gone from there. It appears to be a true story. IBLP and this family are driving themselves into the ground, both engines running.
We need to pray for their repentance RIGHT NOW.
MOST IMPORTANT - we need to see clearly that external rules can never take care of the sin nature that only Jesus, but the power of His Holy Spirit, can take care of.
*by the power of the Holy Spirit . . .
People's secret sins will always come out. If someone has the idea to flaunt God's moral laws as well as disobey their own promises to their own spouse to be faithful then having a sick site like this being hacked brings justice for the innocent victims.
not defending Josh Duggar, but there are probably 1000's signed up including many of them famous, actors, politicians, etc but they will pick out the Christian. If it is not wrong in their eyes to have an affair then they should not care who is on the list. Who made unbelievers watchdog over what Christians do right or wrong? No he should not be there and I am sure God will deal with him. But reading over all the things in the media is I have found the world will criticize a Christian when they don't act like a Christian and punish them when they do(refusing to bake gay wedding cakes or issue gay marriage licenses. In the meantime, all the unbelievers are getting away with murder!
esbee, all that is true. Paul said in Romans - "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Ie - the sin of those who claim the higher moral ground causes much mocking, including the name of God, more so than unbelievers who never claimed that moral superiority.
The reason this is so serious is because Josh was working at the FRC, and the family claimed their so-called treatment of Josh was a turning point in his life, and that he really turned a corner. He didn't. EXTERNAL RULES canNOT do this.
This seems to be a thing God is doing, imo. The Duggars were at the height of their popularity when this hit the fan. It's understandable that the news would capitalize on this, it being their bread and butter, so to speak. It's sad, but it is so very much a perfect storm. I pray God would use it for good purposes, not just mocking that has already started.
And, I don't believe it's completely true that it's only conservative Christians who are called out. Look what happened with Anthony W., whose last name I won't spell because it became part of people scoffing at him. Including Christians. Where were all of us wanting to pray for him and his family? Were we secretly wishing for this to be Anthony's downfall because of his politics? esbee, that was NOT a question directed to you - but just something to ponder for me, I know, and perhaps for some others.
Yes, and again there always could be a very slight and remote chance that this really isn't Josh Duggar but someone pretending to be him and used his addresses in Washington DC area as well as AK. But, you may think that they might be picking on Josh but the Duggars have put themselves out there as the "ideal" models and who ever was behind the hack and the release of names probably didn't have Josh Duggar in mind to begin with and I am sure there are bigger fish to fry in this than Josh Duggar but with the earlier sex scandal with him and the way it was handled by his parents it is easy to see that coming across his name and address a bell is going to go off and his name is going to be out there.
Yes - I just asked my husband if he'd heard about it and he'd heard about the site being hacked and some famous person in the advertising business being exposed. I am holding out for that remote possibility someone was using Josh's name, but it seems to be unlikely, given that if it is false information - I know he's a public figure and all - but libelous defamation of that magnitude ought to be taken to court, and damages given, if it is false information. But what do I know - I'm no lawyer.
He admitted to the affair and porn then retracted the porn thing later.
The hacker did this to the site because they claimed if someone paid $20 their info was deleted. Turns out it wasn't and the hackers wanted them to fess up. Didn't happen.
One of our local suburbs had two of its email accounts show up on the list. They are investigating if people were doing this on taxpayer time (and with taxpayer funds).
The unbelievers, if they do not repent, will get their justice at the Judgment Seat of Christ. However, as Lynn mentions, God's name is blasphemed among the unbelievers due to Josh Duggar being a well-known Christian celebrity. And he will have to give an account for his actions, as will his parents (for sending him to a "rehab camp") and BG (for setting the example that there were two sets of rules: one for him and those he liked and another for the mere peons).
There is no doubt that Josh has screwed up big time. It also seems like he is the scapegoat for the whole Bill Gothard movement.I hope people realize how destructive Bill Gothard has been. Josh, as well as thousands of young people have been collateral damage if this ungodly destructive cult. My family has suffered greatly because if Bill Gothard.
Leslie, for me it is a time to look at my own sin and accountability before God. I am sickened reading the article comments on this, but no, Bill Gothard is frequently mentioned in connection with the scandal going on now. People are, for one thing, posting the chart on sexual abuse counseling from IBLP publications. I don't see Josh as the scapegoat. It would be such a happy thing to see true repentance, but that is not yet, I'm afraid. But to you and those who have been damaged by it all - while one should not rejoice, at least one can feel relief in knowing that you are not alone, and that the bad stuff in these institutions is now being exposed and their external righteousness is crumbling before the world's eyes as well as before the world's eyes.
*as well as before the eyes of believers.
It is Josh's wife and four children who are the real victims here.
Especially Anna since, having grown up in the BG culture all her life, she will somehow accept the blame for not being a "Godly enough wife".
I don't recommend divorce in most cases. But given that his sexual indiscretions are far more than "childhood/teenage experimentation" (he opened TWO accounts, the second with the very expensive "affair insurance policy" which requires extensive and expensive additional purchases, nearly guaranteeing that if you really want an affair, you'll get your wish), something tells me that he's already cheated on Anna.
She needs to dump Josh, his entire family, and probably needs to cut ties with her own BG-influenced family as well. But sadly, she probably won't (and, if she does, there's a 50-50 chance she'll walk away from the Christian faith).
It is a terrible situation for her and the children. I'm not sure with no education what someone like her can do if that would come to that point. This demonstrates the faulty teaching on courtship and marriage that these people followed. Arranged marriages, no time alone, 4 month is a recipe for disaster. If one viewed marriage as a sacrament, this sort of marriage wouldn't even qualify as a sacramental marriage thus qualifying for an annulment. I feel terribly for Anna and the kids.
I don't know Rob. I think you leap to some unwarranted conclusions. If you believe in sacramental marriage, you don't go awhoring. You are unbelievably awed by the very nature of a relationship in which another person is giving herself to you and you are too busy sacrificing your life for her to consider another: you have nothing left to give another. Also, you understand better what Christ has given and is giving for you: the reality the sacrament points to.
Hardness of heart is the proximate cause of all this. Not short, arranged courtship. The hard heart may have entered into those actions (not being real with your own heart, doing what you are told rather than loving freely, possibly thinking that marriage is a cure for lust, as if a feast was a cure for gluttony) but those actions cannot be blamed.
Let me correct myself, Rob. I misread part of what you wrote: you make a valid point about annulment if his heart was fraudulent all along. And yet notwithstanding that every fornication entails some such fraud, the Law recommends marriage as a restitution to the fraud of fornication. So I think the potential for repentance and restoration should not be dismissed. If Anna was my sister, I would recommend some separation to establish works keeping with repentance.
Forgive me for popping off without carefully reading what you wrote.
Lynn,
I mean that he us the scapegoat inasmuch as he i the poster child for all that has been wrong with the Bill Gothard movement fir the mast 40 or so years. We, who bought into this whether a little or a lot are a part if if.
Alfred shared this link with me. The Duggar family has confessed: http://duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=651536de-8b7d-4525-afb0-3f525bc390e1
And just as quickly it has been pulled off their website. I copied and pasted the link and got an error message. I then checked the link for "Michelle's Blog" and the only posting for August is a congratulatory one for the Bates family. NOTHING about any confession.
They're following BG to the letter (put something up then yank it down).
Hopefully somebody captured a screen shot.
Try this one: http://duggarfamily.com/2015/8/statements-from-jim-bob-and-michelle-duggar-and-josh-duggar
Nope, that one also gives the mysterious "error message".
If it were blocked at work, I would get a block notice which is way different from this.
I tried it and it opens for me. It is the permalink from the page.
It didn't work for me, either, but if you go to the article about JD on people.com, the link from there works.
http://www.people.com/article/josh-duggar-infidelity-pornography-addiction-statement
Guess what, that one is down too.
But the second link now works here at home.
I cleared my history and can still pull up the link, but they edited his pornography addiction out of the wording. I guess the first confession was too explicit.
I find it interesting, that while the entirety of his "confession" is all over the internet, the Duggar blog left out only this sentence: "I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and..."
Why?
Because it allows Anna to take the blame for Josh's failings ("I simply wasn't a Godly enough wife") instead of having Josh take responsibility for his own actions. That is, after all, the IBLP way.
Clearly, the Duggars and BG have imploded. Karma, so to speak (because of their legalism) has bit them from behind. The question I have is, "What would legalism be to BG and his followers?"
"You' re the joke of the neighbor hood. you should'nt care if you're feeling good----take the long way home, take the long way home...." From Supertramp's Album. "Breakfast in America". Just a little comment from an old happy hippie!
oh yeah, the album that declares that the devil is their savior ...
Matthew 7::15-20. You will know them by their fruits. Please take the time to look up the verses. God talks about wolves out to devour the sheep. And rotten fruit. It is a sad, sad day. So much grief as the rotten fruit is continually being exposed, yet a joyous day that the rotten fruit is being exposed, my wish is that the true Church of Jesus Christ do what we are supposed to do. This is a HUGE wake up call for the true Church.
Here is the first confession:
"I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife.
I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living and am grieved for the hurt, pain and disgrace my sin has caused my wife and family, and most of all Jesus and all those who profess faith in Him.
I brought hurt and a reproach to my family, close friends and the fans of our show with my actions that happened when I was 14-15 years old, and now I have re-broken their trust.
The last few years, while publicly stating I was fighting against immorality in our country, in my heart I had allowed Satan to build a fortress that no one knew about.
As I am learning the hard way, we have the freedom to choose to our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. I deeply regret all hurt I have caused so many by being such a bad example.
I humbly ask for your forgiveness. Please pray for my precious wife Anna and our family during this time."
And here is the latest statement:
"I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have been unfaithful to my wife.
I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living and am grieved for the hurt, pain and disgrace my sin has caused my wife and family, and most of all Jesus and all those who profess faith in Him.
I have brought hurt and a reproach to my family, close friends and the fans of our show with my actions.
The last few years, while publicly stating I was fighting against immorality in our country I was hiding my own personal failures.
As I am learning the hard way, we have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. I deeply regret all the hurt I have caused so many by being such a bad example.
I humbly ask for your forgiveness. Please pray for my precious wife Anna and our family during this time."
If Josh can confess to being a hypocrite, why can't Bill Gothard? Someone ask Alfred.
I suspect all of Bill's defenders would say Bill did absolutely nothing by comparison.
So as long as you have defenders, you can hide from the truth. Good thing to keep in mind.
I've got a question ... how many guys reading this comment have looked at porn within the last 24 hrs? hmmmmm ...
Another question: What DID Jesus write in the dirt as the accusers all began to fade away?
Be careful is all I'm saying.
That's a good question that theologians have battled for years.
One thing to note is that she was caught "in the very act". Since such act would require at least one other person, and since the law required BOTH parties to be stoned, where was the other person?
I think he wrote Hosea 4:14 in the sand. It certainly applies. I did not look at porn in the past 24 hours, fyi, but that is by God's Grace not my own righteousness.
You know, we all have to start with law and grow into grace when it hits us that law fails us. That our idols have to fall. Let's pray that many people, including the Duggars, will see this as a wake-up call to grace, that we can't please God like the older brother of the prodigal tried to do, and he missed the party. That we can't blame others for our sins. Apparently modest clothing on women doesn't save men from lust after all. It sure was a relief to me that I was nobody's savior!!! That I couldn't fix anyone else!
Sunflower, I like what you're saying, that we have to start with law and grow into grace.
It reminds me of something in Romans 7 and 8 which I have heard called the "four laws" (not in any way referring to or related to the Four Spiritual Laws which we used to hear about.) I'm going to try to summarize it here.
In these chapters Paul vividly describes an experience which probably all Christians have, that is, they hear what can be called the "first law," referring to the Mosaic law, the commandments, and he gives the example in 7:7 of "you shall not covet." Paul then goes on to describe his experience that there was something in him which can be called the "second law" or the law of good in our mind, which caused him to appreciate the Mosaic law and desire to live up to it and please God; but something in his flesh which can be called the "third law" or the law of sin and death in our flesh, defeated his good intentions to live up to the "first law" (the law in the commandments.)
He describes this in 7:14-16: "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin. For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will , this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do. But if what I will, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me."
And further in v. 22 - 23: "For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members."
The trouble being described here, that we all as human beings have, is that we have the law of good in our "inner man" as it says in verse 22, and we agree with the law of God in the commandments, and we want to keep the commandments and continually try to do it, but the "law of sin" which is in our members (that is, in our body, our flesh) is always stronger than the law of good in our mind and always defeats us. So that whenever we try to to keep the law in the commandments, because that truly is what we want to do, we are simply always defeated.
It's like trying to hold up a book in your outstretched hand. You can keep it up for a little while, but eventually your will to keep it up can *never* defeat the law of gravity pulling it down. In the same way the law of sin in our flesh always defeats our best intentions to keep the law in the commandments, and we end up "a captive to the law of sin."
Paul winds up in verse 24 by bemoaning, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"
I mean, this is the trouble with legalism, right? It's trying to the Nth degree to force the law of good in the inner man to overcome the law of sin in our flesh. I don't know about you, but this is clearly my experience: the harder we try to "be good," to keep the law, the stronger is the operation of the law of sin in us, and eventually we just end up a "wretched man."
And this is what makes Romans 8:1-2 so incredibly awesome, where the "fourth law" comes in with the grace that is fully able to gain the victory over the law of sin. "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." I have heard it said that the law of commandments puts an impossible demand on us, but the law of the Spirit of life comes in to be like a feast to us, providing all the abundant supply that we need to live up to the righteous requirement of the law. This new and marvelous law is embodied in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is the Spirit, in verse 3.
Verse 4 says "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." Therefore we should never try in ourselves to keep the law, but we should always turn to our spirit to take the Spirit of Jesus Christ as the One who can free us and live out the fulfillment of the law in us.
This is a super short version of the four laws in Romans. Here's the website where I get this translation of these verses from (and there's also footnotes for further explanation):
http://online.recoveryversion.org/Outlines.asp?bookid=45
Yes, like that, Grace M.
I hope all this is also a lesson for us all, that when the Bible says to put your trust in no man, it means that. Encouraging families to look up to the husband/dad and trusting him to always be right and good without him being transparent and mutually accountable is just plain dumb. Now that is 'leading into temptation', which the Lord's prayer tells us is not what we want.
These are excellent comments from Sunflower and Grace M and I hope many people will read them and take them to heart.
Lynn, you say the comments are "excellent" -- regarding mine, since it's not my ideas and I was just repeating something I heard, I don't mind agreeing with you that it's excellent! I know when I first heard that I wanted to do something like ring bells and sing and dance. No Condemnation! The law of the Spirit of life! We can leave behind all that Romans 7 experience of trying to do the impossible and we can focus on Christ as the Spirit, as a wonderful and loving Person, even a Person in us, even in me. Praise the Lord!
Of course I don't find it so easy to just "stop" trying to keep the law since it's so ingrained in me, but whenever I get reminded, the Lord is so near and available as the Spirit, and I can turn to Him in a moment and drop all the lawkeeping efforts.
With the Christians I fellowship with, "Romans 7" is like a catch phrase -- like "get out of that realm and return to Christ as the Spirit." Get out of the death of "trying" and return to taking a Person as Life! It's hard to write about it without exclamation points :)
Good stuff, Grace, but I do not think that all humans "want to keep the commandments and continually try to do it". I do agree that the redeemed experience this tension as Paul did. I also agree that all human beings do understand the law of God because he has written it on our members, but a person only desires to do good by Grace administered by the Spirit. I would not equate "flesh" with our bodies, because the sin is in our souls, and we are bodily beings, a unity: body/soul/spirit. We are not soulish beings or spirits trapped in a body that we should reject or hate. We are corrupted body and soul, objects of purifying Mercy unto complete redemption to be experienced bodily at the resurrection.
Error in my post: Romans 7:16 reads "But if what I *do not* will, this I do, I agree with the law...." The words between the asterisks were left out in my post.
Here is a link to a blog I just found, of an ex-ATI/IBLP guy who gives a lot of wise insight into the Josh Duggar situation:
http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/08/josh-duggar-ashley-madison-and-covenant.html?m=1
I am not sure that he is not merely using the Josh Duggar situation to restate his own views. I've not heard the Duggars connected to Reconstructionists, in this and other matters the writer attacks a lot of non-Gothard things that he supposes are relevant to the marriage. Moreso, he speculates on the Arkansas "covenant marriage" thing, as a lawyer he seems fixed on temporal matters, offering little in the way of Biblical insight into the situation. In other words, the writer has an agenda and Josh is a convenient target. I am thankful that the writer has a happy family, but I can't tell from reading this blog that he has any regard for Grace or Truth. But proving those evangelicals wrong seems to get him fired up.
An excellent commentary and Law and Gospel is C.W.F. Walther's "The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel," published by the Concordia Publishing Company of St. Louis, MO. Great reading---helps clarify the legalism issues.
Oops! Instead of "and Law and Gospel,"? it should be "about Law and Gospel." Blessings! Tk
The truth is if Josh and Anna would be open to making a clean break from Gothard, to a different more healthy grace-based church culture, and if they were open to seeking genuine expert therapy and recovery, they might be able to look forward to something truly beautiful coming through all this to the other side. They and their whole relationship could be transformed through genuine repentance and healing. This is what is possible where grace is truly present. May God grant this.
Yes, amen!
Yes, Karen. That is what I have been praying for them. I imagine she's confused and hurting right now by endless comments of "leave him already" "you deserve better" and so on. And I can tell those stories of marriages who suffered with adultery and survived, such as Bob and Audrey Meisner, and another blogger named Tonya Ferguson. She DOES have siblings who have left the movement; I believe one of her brothers-in-law was part of the team that started RG in the first place.(or he inspired them; not sure, but he HAS spoken out about IBLP/Gothard)
I wonder how much access to the internet Anna would have to see these type of comments
hopefully that will happen for them
I really wish that the whole Duggar clan would wake up and see the burden they have been put under by gothard. They seem to love Jesus sooooo much but have had so much un-biblical crap added to how they live that they equate following God with Gothard rules. Maybe this incident will be the crack in the dam that lets all the junk flow out.
See, I don't know...I don't get a sense of them testifying about Jesus in their life.
Even their statement today about Josh entering rehab says this:
"His wrong choices have deeply hurt his precious wife and children and have negatively affected so many others. He has also brought great insult to the values and faith we hold dear."
I was struck by the fact that they seem to be more worried about their values and their "faith" being hurt than the name of Jesus Christ being tarnished. I would say - what is your faith? What is your faith in? To me, it's in their values, in their way of living. So, I hear more of a concern that their way of living and their values have been tarnished in this whole mess, with no reference to Jesus at all.
Hoping and praying along with many of you all that God will use this time in their lives to strip away anything not of Christ and to bring them to a full understanding of what Jesus accomplished for us.
They do have some strikes against them. They married hardly knowing each other in 4 months plus under pressure with it being arranged. They have 4 children in 5 years, They have a very public wedding and marriage with now some very public problems. It is really really sad. She has no ability to leave in that she went through ATI with no real degree, never worked and her sole purpose is to be a stay at home mom. I wish that Josh can get some real counseling and both of them some real help. This not only shows the folly of ATI and IBLP but of putting your family on reality TV for the world to see. I almost think that Josh was never really "healed" as they claimed and I also think with the isolated type of raising he had that when he was finally out on his own in marriage, that he didn't have the inner strength to avoid on line pornography and where it lead him. This all flies in the face of Bill's teaching that if you raise your children without TV, videos, music, movies etc that they will turn out to be shining examples of morality. But the opposite is true because children from this type of environment and home life seem to be much more given to the temptations out there when out on their own.
The opposite is not true. The truth is that it is not what goes into the man that corrupts him, but what comes out of him, the fruit of his Adamic nature. Gothard taught that it could be contained by regulating inputs. But the opposite, that uncontrolled inputs will prevent sin, is equally untrue. Only the Grace of God working through the Holy Spirit can prevent sin, and that not completely until we are delivered from this life.
Josh proves that suppression/repression does not purify.
To use the vernacular, Occam's razor "is a thing." Thousands are caught in this Ashley Madison scandal, and worse, and not all of them are true believers. Not all of them are isolationists. Many went to college. And etc..
The simplest explanation, for those who acknowledge God, is the sin resident in the human heart, and only God can deal with this.
Well said, LynnCD.
Don, I enjoy your comments on RG.
I believe that living under the rules and regulations (the law) that ATI teaches actually does incite the sin that is already in an unbeliever's heart. I believe that was the purpose of the law - to utterly condemn us so we would run to Christ - and so, in some respects, I think I agree with Rob. Just one of the verses that I quickly found in Romans 7 says this "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death." Or Romans 5:20: "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more..." Romans 7:8 "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead." and verse 11: "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death."
Actually, now that I have typed those out and after skimming through some of those verses in Romans, I have to say I have great hope for Josh. Out of all the Duggars, he is probably the closest to really understanding for the first time what Jesus Christ has done. Sin has certainly seized the opportunity with Josh Duggar through the laws and regulations that he's been under all his life. There's no where to run, he has hit rock bottom. His only hope is Christ. The other methods and programs have been found lacking. I look forward to hearing the rest of this story - I believe God is doing something good (even though it doesn't look like it!) in the Duggar family -- maybe not for all of them, but I have a strong feeling that one day we will be hearing some amazing testimonies of what Jesus has done for them (not their values!)
I concur, inhisgrip. THanks for supplying what my comment sorely lacked. My point was that lawlessness is no cure for sin, ONLY Grace. Rob said "the opposite is true" (opposite of legalistic Gothardism) and I took that to say that amoral childrearing was the answer. I know Rob doesn't believe that. But it's hard for some of us to leave things unsaid.
If you took Rob to mean that "the opposite" is "rules don't work" then I was wrong to disagree. You never know how many ways a statement can be taken until you let a number of people try to interpret it!
there is an article that tells the reasons behind Anna staying with Josh and it mentions this website. http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/marriage/josh-duggar-is-a-cheater-and-a-liar%25E2%2580%2594but-heres-the-sad-reason-his-wife-wont-leave/ar-BBm5KM6
One of Anna's brothers-in-law?
Josh McDonald, who is married to Anna's sister Rebekah. He used to have a blog called IBLPDetox. In it, he told how he left IBLP and trusted Christ.
"Left IBLP and trusted Christ" . . . . A very telling praise that! Well, that seems to be a hopeful family connection for Anna at least. I hope it bears some good fruit.
I am sorry for the confusion about my comments so I hope to clarify them. I do not believe in raising children without standards and basic Christian moral guidelines. What I was trying to point out in observation from those raised in these type ati homes is that the extreme of no TV, movies videos, rock music etc did not seem to help those raised in it deal with temptations once they were out on their own and have access to all of the above. I think I read where Michelle said that she won't even take the kids to the beach so her sons won't be tempted by someone dressed in a bikini. Sorry but this type of thinking doesn't teach her son's on how to learn to control their eyes and thoughts and this is just my theory that once Josh got married and on his own he couldn't handle internet porn that is only just a mouse click away for everyone on the internet. While I absolutely believe that all sin begins in the heart, I also believe that if someone has a weakness with a particular sin that the should try to avoid things that would encourage that sin which in the case of Josh seemed to be morality and porn. He never seemed to learn moral discipline to avoid internet porn. Whatever type of so called counseling he received earlier didn't help him understand his own sexual desires and they probably got buried within himself and came out once married and on his own. The extreme controlling parenting that the Duggars followed via Bill doesn't really help children raised in it self-control to really avoid major temptations and sin when finally on their own even if married.
Agreed!
Repression and suppression also do not convert the heart to believe that "the body is for the Lord". I remember how Mr. G tried to teach Matt. 6:24 on serving two masters. But it appears that far too many of his adherents "hated one and loved another" or "hold on to one and despise the other". They hate sin because it is still their master, or they despise their bodies because the flesh is still their master, or they despise the legalistic gospel because they are "in bondage under the elemental things of the world". (Mr. G despises his body so much he denies that he even HAS any sensuality.) But we know that they do not "walk in the spirit" if they "carry out the desire of the flesh."
"It was for freedom that Christ set us free" not to "turn [our] freedom into an opportunity for the flesh", but to freely, fully give ourselves to Him (and "through love serve one another") without regret, without looking back, without submitting once again to "a yoke of slavery" to sin or the law.
Bill is a closet gnostic with his views on the physical and the body.
Not only a closet gnostic, but focuses on outward appearances.
That's an interesting diconomy, someone who considers the body evil yet is too focused on appearances.
You gotta compensate... Where your treasure is... His treasure was in appearances.
(And now I have to be very careful when I wear my navy shirt with my khakis to avoid triggering people!)
I think I've got it.[!]
Does anyone know whether Congressman Daniel Webster(FL), who his attempting to be elected to the Speaker of the House position, is sill affiliated with IBLP/ATI/Bill Gothard? That would be of great concern to me if he was! At one point he was referred to a "Taliban Dan" by his opponents.
Larne
It has quite recently been said that he is, and I have found no evidence to the contrary. His website bio states: "...[he] holds his faith, his family, and his principles as his greatest assets." He credits any accomplishments of his only to "the investment that God and others have made in my life". (The above circumstantial evidence is by its very nature capable of more than one interpretation. Without a statement from him, I cannot say for sure.)
Larne, I watch politics more than is good for my health, and this one frosts me, but *not* on account of Webster. It was rather how his opponent, Grayson, smeared him. Grayson twisted a speech where Webster UNEQUIVOCALLY stated the Bible does say of his wife, "she should submit to me," but he then went on to say that was NOT stated to HIM, but to his WIFE, and that HIS job was to give sacrificial love, NOT to enforce commands given to her.
Grayson clipped out the words "she should submit to me," and played them out of context, over and over, in an ad, and I am very glad it backfired on him. I know the word "principles" is a trigger word for some, but Grayson is an unprincipled man, and he was the one who coined the term "Taliban Dan."
Grayson who coined the term in his ad is a democrat and had similar outrageous charges with other Republicans. But, Gothard's teaching on women, rape, sexuality is more in line with the Taliban and radical Islam.
Grayson didn't cite Gothard. He twisted Webster's words to mean the opposite of what Webster actually said. It was not Gothard's teaching that made him call Webster Taliban Dan. That's the sign of an evil, unprincipled man. Guilt by association is a very convenient way to smear someone.
That being said, I just looked up Webstet's education. He's quite accomplished. I'm surprised he did not recognize the woefully inadequate, often factually erroneous nature of the ATI curriculum. I wonder if his children went to college, too.
I'm glad you brought up another, more charitable side to his story.
I thought congressman Webster had a child married to one of the Bates kids. I think it may be a son to one of the older girls. So I think he is very involved still with IBLP.
His son, John, married Alyssa Bates, and another son, Jordan, married Olivia Fredrickson. They met while they were both working at ILBP HQ. (Her father, Dwight [Chief Financial Officer of The Institute as of Feb 2014], married BG's niece.
(TPN article by Sarah Posner)
Oops: TPM article
all one big happy family or at least all in the family
I know Dan Webster very well. I have great confidence in his integrity. His experience with B.G. lacks the trauma of many so it has been difficult for him to repudiate something that his family benefitted from. But I have no doubt that he is nt a la Alfred, unwilling to see the truth. Gothard will be wrapped around his neck by his enemies. I ask you to pray for him in this time. God will decide what comes of the Speaker race. But don't tear him down on presumption.
I met him at Legislator Seminars which were very helpful to all. He brought me to Florida to work for him. I have remained at the Fl. House while he went to Senate then Congress. He brought many Gothardites to Florida Legislative process, all of whom contributed and many of whom grew leary of B.G. Consider him a sincere ATI dad, not demented.
I prayed for him a few years back and will renew my prayers for him and his family.
Larne,
Thanks for the heads up. I was unaware that Webster was running for Speaker, but, sure enough, he is. This is very concerning.
After looking into this a little, I think when McCarthy was still in, Webster represented a voice of dissent from the right, although not really given any chance. Now that McCarthy is out, I don't imagine that moves Webster to top position, but likely will open the door for another serious candidate to step up. Perhaps Ryan, or if not him, someone else.
Still a concern that his name would be in the mix at all. While I have a great deal of compassion for anyone who has been impacted by ATI/IBLP, there are serious judgement issues with anyone who is still affiliated with the organization, given what has come to light in the last couple of years.
I'm contacting my house rep today to tell him he must not support Webster and why.
I appreciate all the comments and don’t mean to question the man’s integrity. I am concerned that anyone still following Bill and his teachings after the past 21 months of the exposure of his sins and failure to repent. Bill has a history of using politicians to hawk his teachings starting with his first political seminar 1979 at the Northwoods. Texas Congressman Sam Johnson, also a former POW, was his Board Chairman till RG started exposing Bill’s sins. If someone is unwilling to accept the truth or even investigate the allegations I am not comfortable with them in any political position especially Speaker of the House. That position holds immense power and can be used to quiet one’s foe.
Just my humble opinion.
Larne
Hi, Larne. My strident comments against Grayson were not meant to imply you were questioning Webster's integrity. Of concern to me is his lack of response, when questioned, about the matter. I suppose he figures that all that has needed to be done has been done, and all but a very few people can see what a pathetic, sorry website Bill has put up in response.
I'm not so sure if he really is in the running because of his connections with IBLP and the Bates. It has already been brought up in the media and with ongoing problems with the Duggar children included Josh and now what looks to be questionable missionary work by Jill and her husband that he would not get anywhere. I think the focus is more on Paul Ryan than Webster.
I would agree with Ryan being the front runner. But that is if he is willing to give up his Ways and Means Chairmanship and accept the travel time required by the Speaker's position. It could also damage a future Presidential run he could be contenplating. If Ryan rejects the call, Webster could be the pick if the Conservative part of the party push the agenda. For me staunch Gothardites are too myopic in their views and opinions since in a position like Speaker they represent the whole party.
Larne
Yes, I understand the concern since Speaker of the House is third in line after the VP for the Presidency if something happen to both President and VP. I would think because his connections have already been mentioned that there is just too much info now out there about Bill, IBLP and Duggars to make him feasible even for the most staunches of conservative Republicans.
Larne, A man like Webster has not had the opportunity of some of us to become fully informed about everything that has come out. Bill may not have lost his confidence, but I know Dan Webster would not be "usedv by B.G. any more than Jeremiah Wright used Obama. Knowing Dan as I do, I assure you all bis Gothard connection does not pose any threat to anyone but his own peace of mind. I discussed the situation with him a year ago and he has not cut me off for denouncing B.G.
Kathy Voyer Mears worked for Webster for years and she was quite disappointed in Gothard before she came to work for Dan. That was 19 years ago. Dan is a rare Godly politician and should not be condemned over B.G. I know most of you are more fair than to do so.
sorry about typos. did the above on phone. :-(
Don, when he was running several years ago, I looked into the allegations against him, and I was pretty set against IBLP's teaching at the time myself. It was not hard to find out that Webster is a good, decent man and seems to be a find public servant. As I said above, I will be praying for him and will renew those prayers this evening.
Don,
Thanks, being from opposite ends of the country I know little of the man except what the news and internet says about him. Having worked with staunch Gothardites for the past 35 years I have come to realize they have been lead astray by a false prophet who is more concerned about his own image then following God's command of repentance. I would hope Congressman Webster would make a statement regarding his relationship with Bill should he be taken as a serious candidate for the Speaker position. Other wise he would be following in the 1980 footsteps of Stanley, Bob Jones, Swindoll and others. Knowing the truth and failing to act on it makes one an accomplice and accountable before God. To quote a victim of the Nazi terror.
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.' -Bonhoeffer
Just my humble opinion,
Larne
Question to RG moderators, do you have any info on Bill's new web site promoting his new Power team ministry? He is also selling books and materials on this web site having to do with daily Rhemas and inner brain. Has there been any review of any of these new books and ideas he is trying to promote. His name is obviously partly hidden on some of the books. I am not trying to promote the web site at all but it is a rather strange set up and he looks as if he is trying to hide his name. There are a couple of recommendations by a couple of "Drs" and I am wondering who these people are and if they are real?