How do we grow in wisdom and character? How are we protected from temptation? How does God give us direction for our lives?
Say it with me, ye thousands of Gothard’s alumni: “By staying under authority.”
Authority is the foundational principle of Gothard’s worldview.
“Our faith multiplies as we see how God speaks to us through those He has placed over us.” (Basic Seminar Textbook, pg. 20)
“Each of us has a multitude of character deficiencies that need to be perfected. God uses those in authority to do this. ‘Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child: but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.’ Proverbs 22:15.” (pg. 26)
The second night of the Basic Seminar is a deluge of charts and anecdotes about teenagers in rebellion, broken relationships, and people drifting in search of God’s will. Their problems can always be traced to the fact that, somewhere along the line, they didn’t listen to, or flat-out rejected, their God-given authority.
For instance, in Gothard’s trademark style of illustrating his points with completely unverifiable anecdotes, he relates the following story:
A twenty-one-year-old girl who is supporting herself and living away from home firmly believes that it is God’s will to marry a certain young man. This girl’s parents don’t attend church. Both the girl and the one she wants to marry have trusted Christ for salvation. The girl’s parents strongly oppose this marriage stating only that they don’t think he is the right one for their daughter, and, therefore, that the marriage won’t work out. Both the girl and her boyfriend feel that the marriage will work out. (pg. 29)
“How would you advise her?” Gothard inquires. He then provides the answer:
The parents of the twenty-one-year-old girl who disapproved of their daughter’s marriage did so, among other reasons, because they detected underlying attitudes in both her and her boyfriend which would have been incompatible in marriage. One of those negative attitudes was a stubborn self-will. The parents sensed that each expected to be “the center of the stage.” Neither had learned to submit to authority. They had no conception of “deference,” which is regard for the wishes of another. A big step of correction could be taken by following her parents’ wishes and waiting for marriage, so that proper attitudes could be learned by both the girl and the fellow. If, after a period of time, they still felt it was God’s will to marry, it would then be a lot easier for God to change the parents’ minds. (pg. 30)
There’s no discussion as to whether the parents might be mistaken, or have their own problems with being “the center of the stage.” He doesn’t seem curious as to why the young woman (she’s twenty-one; she isn’t a girl) was so anxious to be out of the house and married. It’s not even a consideration as to whether she can make this decision on her own, even if it’s bad. The answer is that she ought to “stay under authority” and let God change her parents’ minds.
Since that quiz was such fun, he then gives another one:
An eighteen-year-old boy plans to go into the ministry. He prays about what college to attend and finally chooses a top-ranking Bible college. His parents fail to comprehend the importance of either the ministry or the Bible education, and they threaten to withhold all college funds unless he attends a near-by university. Their counsel to him is that if he learns another profession first, he can always have something to fall back on if he fails in the ministry. The son’s points are that he doesn’t plan to fail in the ministry, and that he needs the Bible training. (pg. 29)
“How would you advise him?” One thing you figure out pretty early on is that your instinctive answer is always wrong. Gothard always has the right answer. It’s a subtle but devastating technique that he honed to a fine art in his Wisdom Booklets. In this case, his answer was as follows:
The father of the eighteen-year-old boy who planned to go into the ministry detected in his son attitudes of ungratefulness, stubbornness and insensitivity to the feelings of others. Even though the father wasn’t a Christian, he realized that these attitudes would cause his son to fail in the ministry. The very fact that his father had apprehensions of his failure in the ministry should have been a significant indication to the son. A proper response to his father’s counsel would have been an essential step in developing these qualities. (pg. 30)
I definitely sympathize with the father in this case. He had a much better outlook on life than a young, zealous eighteen-year-old. But this wasn’t presented as a young man (not a boy) who needed to listen to his father, but was free to make his own—possibly bad—decision. It was an illustration of a young man who should have heard God through his father’s opinion.
To reinforce this concept, Gothard then introduced us to the concept of the “Umbrella of Authority.”
No longer did we just hear God through our parents and other authorities; now, if we persisted on making our own decisions, we opened ourselves up to destruction.
Later, while studying Wisdom Booklet 15, a family learned more about God’s ordained structure of authority in the home. According to Gothard (who had exactly zero experience in marriage and raising children), it’s the husband’s role to develop the long-range vision for the family and lay down broad commands to accomplish those goals. His wife then implements these commands by creating “laws” for the household. There are dire consequences for a couple who doesn’t function this way:
… Many husbands have acknowledged that their motivation for spiritual pursuits can be quickly destroyed by negative attitudes or lack of enthusiasm from their wives.
When a husband gives a command to his family and the wife fails to work out the proper procedures to carry it out, many consequences may occur.
First, the father may attempt to give the laws himself. Very often, however, he is not sensitive to the needs and responses of the children; thus, he may be too harsh or demanding. The wife will then try to compensate by being more lenient than she should be, and the children will sense a divided authority.
Meanwhile, when the wife does not fulfill her function in the family, she will feel inadequate and inferior. She may try to compensate for these destructive feelings by withdrawing, reacting, or looking outside the family for her approval and fulfillment. (WB 15, pp. 615-616, first edition)
To Gothard’s audience, these “consequences” are terrifying. Nothing is more lethal to a family than “divided authority.” Unless this wife got back under authority and did her job, the entire family was doomed to rebellion, suffering, anger, and eventual destruction.
The most significant aspect of the teaching on authority was this: Bill Gothard somehow became the ultimate authority over his followers. It was no longer safe to question him or refuse to live by his standards. God and Satan both lurked outside the umbrella, ready to destroy rebellious families.
For the thousands of families enrolled in his “homeschool program,” Gothard provided the safe haven we needed.
Uncertain about how to please God? About what was acceptable dress, music, and entertainment? About what to do if sexual abuse was devastating our lives?
All we had to do was turn to Gothard, agree, and obey.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES IN THIS SERIES
An ATI Education: Introduction
An ATI Education, Chapter 2: Is It Just Me?
An ATI Education, Chapter 3: Thou Shalt Not Trap the Eye
An ATI Education, Chapter 4: The Law of Grace
An ATI Education, Chapter 5: We the People Under Authority
An ATI Education, Final Chapter: Guilty Silence
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Sara Roberts Jones spent six years under the teachings of Bill Gothard, and fifteen years unlearning those teachings. She and her husband homeschool their four children with a strong emphasis on grace and cultivating their individual giftings.
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Thank you, thank you Sarah Roberts Jones for exposing the teaching which ,combined with the respected big names,and endorsements,gave me a bondage I could not get out of for years.Don't think for one minute this article doesn't need to be written.And the fruits,the fruits!Becoming an automaton.Helplessness.Something good may be coming my way tomorrow,when God changes the authority over me preventing my wishes,desires,from ever coming to pass,but never today."Today" never came to me for years.I was too helpless to leave,the sides of the ditches were too high.Then one day a compassionate couple said a few words and the suppression I felt; the pent up disappointed sorrow,the disillusionment in a movement bent on breaking the spirit,gave way to a certainty that I would never return to the hopelessness.People that were under these teachings may need deliverance they don't even realize.But Sarah,already in the article is the sword of the spirit,the pen of a Sozhenitsyn.
Good analysis of the authority teaching. Interesting that the factors upon which Gothard explains the "right answer", i.e. the parents' perceptions of their offsprings attitudes, are not even presented in the hypothetical. When new facts are added, of course a prior answer has to be revised. But he did this to appear wise and insightful. The factors themselves, however, are not necessarily present and therefore, the "right answer" is a mere pretext to promote the authority teaching.
If an unbelieving parent did not want you to marry a believer, you were to obey. But was anyone ever told to obey an unbelieving parent who did not want them to listen to Gothard?
Don, that is very insightful - "the parent's perceptions of their offspring's attitudes".
Perceptions - the perfect word to use here. Perceptions which were OFTEN wrong. I know. I was SO often wrong. No thought given as to hormones, bad day - the perception was right especially if it perceived - here is the catchall word of the program - drumroll - rebellion. Perceived rebellion has cost families SO much. Relationships, children's love for our Savior, and in extreme cases even death (this has been discussed on many a forum using names such as IFB and Pearls).
It all starts with assuming you know the motives of your child. Don't assume. Pray. Talk. Be kind.
You hit on it, Don. Thank you
I should have put "not enough thought to hormones, bad day" etc... but you cannot edit these once you have commented.
Thank God we still loved our children and had a heart for them. It just put an unhealthy spin on parenting, that is for sure.
So to combine what we are saying: Gothard taught that the (often wrong) perceptions of an authority were sufficient grounds upon which to make decisions...because of authority. But he did not even share the relevant perceptions when asking us to solve a wisdom quiz, so he subtly built our dependency on HIS authority, and showed our children how wrong we are and that only Bill was wise!
Oh my goodness. So glad to be done with this. It was all such a bad,wrong set-up.
Bg, this is how to raise a family - "And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other; just as God, in Christ, has also forgiven you."
Exactly Julia!
My motives were constantly judged by BG followers(even people you know.) And it ruined any positive work I did...nothing I did was ever "good" but considered "manipulative" instead of...trying to make friends.
BG really screwed people up. The whole "father over wife" thing...saw it ruin even people who were "nice" to me, but figured that..lies are better then deciet.
I will not be deceitful and when I first saw all the BG stuff...yes in circles of people you know/knew...I pointed it out and was SHOT for it! Because I saw how suffocating and damaging it was...and so the BG followers decided to slander me, lie about me, call me a lesbian for wanting to be friends with women, or "emotionally" unstable for having real emotions and truly loving people with my heart not just mind, and also was called "bipolar" by arm chair pyschologists that are in that circle that you knew, and they only did it to destroy ALL positive things that I did. I could make 10 deposits of kindness and goodness, and it was tossed into the trash all because..."Gothard rules our house and you the single lady must be sinful and hiding some sin, because you are not married yet, so you must be pursuing our children because you are either immoral, lesbian or otherwise, and self-centered". I heard that over and over and over, and yet..Gothard was suffocating the kids and the parents were mad at me for exposing it and saying his teachings were wrong.
I just am glad you have seen the damages done to your own family...I wish the other families would...and that they would all apologize to me for the slander, defamation of my character, lies and attacks and still being done even by one girl on her Pinterest, angry because she didn't like being expose for her accusations toward me from her parents. And the circle was BIG! And you woke up, praise God...but...in the midst of that mess, even you sometimes couldn't see me straight because of...it's too easy for people to move from one "Gothard" to another meaning....if someone did something wrong that made a "gothardite" angry, but the people got out of Gothard...then the person who they were angry at in the first place...will still never be restored to a friendship or positive relationship because...some people will always make the whistle blower the bad guy.
I am just glad Recovering Grace exists to help me clean out my own stupid junk from Gothard, and I have to forgive the many, many who hurt me...and publicly slandered me and privately, but were clever enough to cover their tracks, and thus...sure, they could say "She's making it up" but guess what...that's what everyone said about the victims of Gothard and he is now exposed.
I have seen only negative, cruelty from so many in the Gothard world that you knew. And yet, none, none, even if they recognized it's badness...have ever apologized to me for their wrongs done. And yes, that is a fair thing to expect, just as the victims of Bill Gothard want him to apologize to them.
I say this...if you do not apologize to those you hurt, BG or not...it still isn't following Jesus, but running from reality.
And those people..whom I loved DEARLY...tried to accuse me of being "mean" for exposing Gothard's teaching and also any thinking that resembles it. And THAT is what I got in trouble for.?? Just wrong.
So I pray that all this exposing of Gothard makes people take a good look at how their following him hurt many good people...including me.
RW, I know firsthand what you mean about slander from ATI families. When I was in graduate school, I had a job as an organist in a small Southern Baptist church. Thankfully, the rest of the church wasn't like this, but there was one family in that church that was very heavily into Gothard's teachings. Even though I was a single guy at the time, they told me about IBLP and tried to get me to go to the conferences and all that, which I didn't have the money for.
All was OK for a while until I noticed their daughters, who were 2, 5, 8, and 9 at the time, avoiding me, and I couldn't figure out why. I've always been one to play with, dote on, pester, and just plain spoil rotten kids, and I thought their behavior a little odd, since I knew I had never given them any cause for alarm with their kids.
I had, on occasion, done a few music specials, singing southern gospel material. But then, one Sunday after church, something I said that was intended as a joke (and definitely NOT off-color) absolutely set the father of that family OFF on me, screaming at me how I needed to repent of the music I was singing. I left the church in tears, thinking I really had offended God. Not to mention, I had never even heard any such doctrine before in my entire life (I was 29 at the time) regarding styles of music.
Nevertheless, I had felt like I had committed the unpardonable sin, and so the next day I sent a letter to the pastor telling him I was resigning, having felt like I had disqualified myself from serving the Lord in that capacity. The very next Sunday afternoon, I got a phone call from the pastor telling me that he read my letter and was just SICK over what had happened, and reassured me that what happened was not my fault, and that that guy had actually caused quite a few problems in the church, and that I wasn't the only one he had yelled at over something that went against Gothardism. He even admitted to having been too lenient with him for too long and was going to have a talk with him. Oh, and the pastor said he was NOT accepting my resignation and asked me to return the following Sunday, so I did, albeit reluctantly.
But even then, whenever I'd get up to sing a special, that family would walk out on me, and the pastor got on his case about that, too. It was there that I learned that he was afraid that I would cause his daughters to become sexually active, and he even thought I was a sexual predator all because of my tastes in music, and I think he even tried to convince others that I was in order to slander me (thankfully, most of the church wasn't buying it, but still...).
Even so, not knowing any better at the time, and in spite of having never been involved in IBLP or ATI, I couldn't shake the thought in my head that maybe he was right about the music issue, so I studied the issue online, and sure enough, I found a plethora of sites that said it was wrong. I began to think "wow, maybe there really is something wrong with southern gospel and CCM and the like", so I began to avoid listening to it, just on the chance that they were right, even though I found such a doctrine hard to believe, as I could not figure out WHY God would have a problem with it.
A few years later, I searched online for something to refute such teachings, and it was there that I learned the truth that no, there was nothing at all wrong with southern gospel or CCM. Moreover, the owner of that site showed just what an unChristlike attitude some such people demonstrated, which was a relief to see that God never once had a problem with me listening to southern gospel or CCM.
In one word, I would sum up Gothard's teachings as POISON. Not only to those practicing it, but to all who come into contact with them, and just as bad as that infamous mushroom cloud over Hiroshima. I know it sure screwed me up for a while, and that was without having ever even been to an IBLP conference, and it's only been just recently that I've been able to listen to CCM without feeling guilty. Oh, and I now even play bass in a praise band at a non-denominational church that rocks out during worship. :-)
Don..you nailed it! A kid would never be safe if a parent/when a parent could twist a perception to their liking. And use the "umbrella" to achieve full control over their child's actions and behaviors...the robotics in Gothard's world...are from satan. No doubt about it.
satan wants people to control people, so he can control them, and make them fear God as a mean control freak, rather than as the loving, emotional, joyful, sad, expressive and perfect "human" in Jesus Christ that He is. The insightfulness was often..mockery of all that the Bible stands for, because God is not "Allah"...as in "If God wills it".
But God is...powerful...in LOVING and overcoming evil! not to shame people, but to free them from sin! Gothard had no view of sin as evil, he only viewed anything HE didn't like as evil. Bleh. He used so many "loopholes" to give parents the "answer" to everything and lead to parents making children basically into slaves, who had to cater to their whims.
Real love, even when involved in legalism, will still come through.
I have known many legalists, who I know loved me, even though they were...legalistic. But I have also known legalists who did not love me, legalistic and condemning.
I think this is how some people can make it through the world of legalism...still able to love.
I know I can! and have! And I still even love some of my legalistic friends! HA! I won't kick them out, because..they are my friends! But I don't accept their legalism. Some like me still, and tolerate my "liberalism". ha! But others...to them...legalism is more important than people.
That is when I know that satan, not God is in charge of their hearts, no matter how liberal or legalistic they are.
To me...love can still shine through in legalistic households..or in liberal households, because...all love really is a reflection of the goodness of God! And that is HOPE for all those who have been hurt in legalism. but those in BG who still sometimes support him, it's because..they had "friends" who loved them. Fine...so did I! But I do NOT support anything of BG at all!
And though I loved those caught in BG, they cannot recognize it, because...BG also taught people to hate anything that contradicted him. And some chose to follow not only his teachings, but his thinkings on how to relate to people.
Deep down...I think BG hates humanity, is deeply resentful of him having made his own choices in life about being single - he could have married.
Me..the women who has been single for many years..I've seen a LOT of the stories behind why men stay single...and players in the Christian world...there are many of them! BG was a player!
Bottom line!
And he had "thousands" of wives who idolized him over their own husbands!!! SICK!!! THAT is how that man won over the hearts of so many women in the Christian world. They idolized HIM over their own husbands....wow, I just had an AHA moment. It all makes even more sense now. I get it SO clearly.
When disillusioned women couldn't have their husband meet their expectations, they worshiped...BG.
Bleh...this just makes me sicker and sicker and no wonder so many Christian women believe in divorce now!!!! He promotes it, without saying he does! the many women divorce so they can find a "better husband"...like Bill! Yet, Bill doesn't exist..he is just a man in a building who wrote books.
SO MUCH IDOLIZING!
And this gives me a totally different take on why so many women who were unhappy at home..wouldn't work on their marraiges, but instead...worked on their kids!! UGH...What a mess!!!!
correction on bad spelling..."the pen of a Solzhenitsyn".
I have been on both sides of the legalist mountain, young now old, Gothard now BG free, under an umbrella and now free of false authority. I remember reading the first example in the article about the couple who wanted to get married was my husband and I thought it was straight to me from an angry God because my mom opposed our marriage as “we were both idiots who did not know responsibility”—well I did--- but hubby did not. We got married anyway and wow, it was boiling kettle to frying pan and back for years. Failure after failure, disappointments galore. Not to mention my sense of independence, not being a meek “gothard” female who always wore dresses and my husband’s many illnesses and our myriad financial problems.
I have read stories of others who lived their lives under legalism and when it did not work for them they shucked it all and became atheist, which probably saved their sanity.
In our lives, if it was not for the grace of God, we would have divorced or murdered each other somewhere along the line. And we are not yet at the finish line so those options still exist. The only mercy is that we never had kids. Who knows what they would have turned out like in our situation.
Looking back and chewing the cud over everything and the philosophies we allowed to guide us, I think that no matter what, Gothard or God, stuff would have happened, good and bad. The only difference would have been our (my) reaction to the incidents and the amount of trust I put in God when they happened. I falsely thought under BG teaching that God was not pleased and allowed all the bad to happen because of MY inner self, turmoils, disobedience, etc.
Christians today are losing their lives to ISIL because they name the name of Christ. They most likely never heard the name of Gothard. In those countries they truly have only the Holy Spirit to guide them as they grow for whatever time they are given.
I've heard the umbrella analogy--with all its flaws--shared in many mainstream churches. I think it is one evidence of the ripple effects of IBLP and other organizations that propagate similar teachings. All people--Christians or not--need to be critical thinkers. Even the watered down versions of these teachings that have made their way into mainstream Christianity can be harmful.
Amanda, you are so right! The ripple effect is that in the 80's, Gothard was idolized by many churches. Dobson even supported him initially until the cover up of Bill's Brother sexually assaulting a girl and it wasn't confronted.
The ripple effect is still there, and the "family initiative" holds to some of Gothard's mindset. As does a lot of the new "reformed" advocates who have caused the resurgence of Calvinism. Even Piper who says he is a complementarian, his writings don't really say that.
The whole topic of "umbrella" and "under/over" causes a lot of havoc in the home for wives and husbands. Jesus says to submit to one another. That is clear...it's about equality, not elitism.
And Jesus raised women up from their position of "under" to equal, when he had women "disciples", although they didn't get much recognition due to mostly men were in prominent places of leadership.
Yet Dorcas, and Lydia and the Mary's and Aquila and Priscilla, all were treated equally.
The book of First Timothy seems to imply "under/over" mindset by it's "Pastors/Elders" teaching, but it's also clear that no one is to Lord it over others.
And Parents are not to provoke children to wrath, and children are to obey parents.
The issues isn't the Bible verses though, but how those verses are applied.
Parents and children relationships are to be about...safety and guidance, training, not about isolation, hiding, or making clones.
God calls people to different roles in life, as spoken in the list of the Gifts of the Spirit and the offices listed of teacher/pastor/elder/deacon/servant. Yet these are not limited to one person their entire life.
Some people are only servants, until they move into an elder position, and then later on, they move out of that position.
The roles of leadership were given to maintain order, and organization, not to control aka Lord it over others.
This is common in the business world. Even Jesus spoke clearly about it, when the Centurion came to him. The Centurion understood leadership roles, and yet asked Jesus to help him, knowing that in essence, the Centurion was below Jesus. Yet, Jesus, didn't insult the Centurion, and in fact didn't even address the issue of soldier to civilian, but just...did spiritual work to heal the Centurion's son.
It shows that Jesus wants one to one relationship with mankind and also wants mankind to help each other, no matter the roles of leadership.
In fact, Jesus advocated that...leaders are to be servants. This is why at one time, police, teachers, doctors, ministers, were all viewed as "public servants" because..they cared about people not in their own family, but served the public.
The "Lording over" is what the umbrella taught. It was unbiblical from the get go, and yet twisted into "spiritual" by those who could make others feel bad about themselves for questioning their supposed "super spiritual insights".
Mainstream Christianity suffers from not having critical thinking because...it's criticized as "judgmental". So people shoot themselves in the foot when the word "judge" is used, because..it ends up leading to circular reasoning...which is definitely NOT critical thinking. Circular in that everyone just ends up criticizing others as "Hypocrites". This is why to me, I just see Gothard as a sexual sinner, and angry at the world and creating a system to control people. Yes, he was a hypocrite also, but the others stuff overshadows his hypocrisy.
Thanks for your comments.
"One thing you figure out pretty early on is that your instinctive answer is always wrong."
This explains the years in therapy trying to figure out why I can't recognize my own instincts, much less trust them! Sad.
He actively broke down our trust in our own instincts. We were never right, unless we were adhering to his point of view. That right there is 95% of the reason he could get away with blaming women for their own rape.
You are so right Sara! Good people were viewed as evil. People couldn't trust those who were doing good, because..it was opposite of what they had been trained to see at "good".
bleh.
Well put.
Karen, that quote and your comment on it just turned on 10,000 lightbulbs in my mind. Yep. Trying to un-learn so much is really difficult.
Only recently I realized with my husband's help, he wasn't raised under BG, that all the fear I had of God abandoning me was because I wasn't doing it right and God wouldn't take care of me. It stemmed from this mess right here! ''Umbrella of protection.'' I remember hearing at some point growing up a story by BG of a woman who's husband was cheating on her and he was going to loose the business. The wife stepped in and saved the business. SO, he left her and married the other woman. She was left because she shouldn't have stepped in, that God was going to use that to teach the husband a lesson and bring him back to God. She wasn't under the umbrella. Therefore, it was as usual The woman's fault. Anyone else remember this? Do I remember it right?
I remember being fearful of having a husband who made a mistake because I was sure I going '' down with the ship.'' That is so not Biblical. It was better hope the hubs doesn't have holes in his umbrella or mom and kids are in trouble. I don't think Jesus taught a parable on umbrellas.
I don't ever remember hearing if someone ever sinned or for goodness sake made a mistake that God was merciful, gracious, slow to anger and waiting to be in relationship with you.
Psalms 139 and 103 were not big hitters growing up under BG.
we burned all the BG stuff we had. But Recovering Grace has helped me see the garbage and how it brainwashes us as truth but really it is occultism. The truth is hidden, It is deceptive. I say BG had just enough truth to bait people in. But anyone who knows the Word should be able to see past the smoke and mirrors. Being brought up in it, one must reprogram our minds with real truth.
I remember that story. If you ask me, it was a good thing the wife knew how to make good business decisions, since that husband was going to ruin himself one way or another. But yes, the suffocating fear that you'd mess up somehow-- or your authority would-- and God would blast you got it.
I remember that story and many, many others that instilled fear and thoughts of "how in the WORLD are we to know what to do if we cannot use our brains like the lady in this story did" I am SO glad to be free of all. the. fear. I am glad to not fear God in this helpless, unhealthy way any longer. I know that even if I mess it ALL up, God is my father who will patiently help me sort it all out and even if there are consequences to my wrong decision, His peace and nearness more than make up for them. So what exactly did Joseph do wrong to be put in prison for 7 years? Oh yeah. Now I remember. He was falsely accused because of his pride in telling his dreams to his brothers. That is hogwash and that scenario is SO BG. Not sure if BG ever asserted that one but after so many years of so many like stories, I can write them for him now. This only shows that I listened well and believed too much. God, on the other hand, is love and perfect love casts out all fear. BG used fear. God casts it out.
"I know that even if I mess it ALL up, God is my father who will patiently help me sort it all out and even if there are consequences to my wrong decision, His peace and nearness more than make up for them."
amen.
Yay! You see that Joseph wasn't the bad guy BG made him out to be.
I never believed Joseph to have caused his issues, his father's favoritism aided in being picked on, but Joseph's brothers were just bad men!
And I struggle...having often felt like Joseph, wrongly accused by people. But God is bigger than fear.
He IS love and loves us deeply! And that is how I could still love others, but also speak boldly against not only BG but any thing that resembles his teachings..yet that meant...I'd likely get the "go to jail" card for being truthful, moral and honest.
I just know this...Jesus is bigger. Always.
The issues between Joseph and his brothers need to be viewed as the fruit of what polygamy brings which is a man married to multiple women and that have multiple kids and they are always trying to get the attention and affection of the one father who is spread too thin. Jacob favored Jospeph because Rachel was his favorite wife over Leah and the others. That played out with the children and results with them trying to kill and get rid of Joseph. Despite what Sister Wives reality TV shows tried to promote, just looking at scripture and the stories like Joseph as well as King David should be viewed as the real fruit of polygamy which is conflicts, envy and anger between the wives and their children.
Well said Rob War...about polygamy. Sadly, in Gothard's world, the daughter's often became "secondary wives"...to the Father and were treated like property and cattle, which led to the sons disrespecting women completely unless they could control them. Bleh.
To: Free at last
YES, you do recall that *story correctly!! I remember so vividly my attendance at that spring 1979 Philadelphia basic seminar.
(This occurred soon after I had accepted Jesus as Savior. I was a young mother of three sons.)
*IF ONLY the wife had NOT become involved with her husband's business, he would have gone bankrupt as God intended?!?! As a result, he would then have had an opportunity to appeal to God for His true direction.(Somehow Bill knew all of this?!?!) Amazing!!
Due to HER intrusion, she lost a husband to another woman as well as interfered with her husband's relationship with God?!?!
(Such incredible insight Gothard possesses!!) Uncanny!!
Isn't this concept the opposite of the mandate that a wife should support her husband without question in any endeavor that he wishes to pursue?!?!(Is this not inherent of the 'chain of command'??)
Of course, no matter what, woman are RESPONSIBLE!! The wife must first be discerning and then able to accomplish the 'balancing act' of trying to determine 'just how much and when'!!
With adherence to Gothardism and its diabolical lunatic at the helm,
it is impossible to maintain one's sanity. Who really recovers???
Stories, stories and more stories......
Oh yes, 'FREE at last', I remember it all too well.... :+(
In HIS Grip..
^i^ ^i^ ^i^
Willy,
Bill had a habit of changing a story to fit his desired outcome to coincide with his out of context theology. I would not trust one of his stories.
Larne
Yes, I remember the anecdote of wife saves business but loses husband. Something like "she won the battle but lost the war." It was all HER fault for interfering with what God was doing. Also what a horrible thing Abigail did in saving the lives of her wretched husband and loyal servants. It was HER fault Nabal had a heart attack or stroke, don't cha know??? Free at last, you and I have a lot in common with each other in our reactions to the umbrella teaching. I am so glad to be free from this garbage. One good thing is my discernment radar is perpetually on high alert now, and I have come to understand the Bible much better as a result.
I went to one seminar in1987 and remember that story well
I had a difficult time with the umbrella because my parents were very hands-off. They weren't believers, and basically left me to make my own decisions after I reached high school. As long as grades were good, and I was home by curfew, they didn't interfere with my life (I would have loved it if they had). I actually ended up living alone in our house my senior year of high school after their divorce so that I could finish school.
Gothard's umbrella seemed ludicrous in my situation, but I tried to find one. I did find some of the people in my church helpful for advice, but I realized that if I had God's Word and the Holy Spirit, I would probably be okay-and I have been. This was one of the many reasons that Gothard's teaching did not stick for very long after my first seminar. It did really affect my church, and it was one reason that I ended up opting for a loess fundamentalist church when I went to college. I did check in with trusted spiritual advisors, but the Word and the Spirit have never failed me!
Yes, Bill started the Tues night with the question,"do you want to have great faith?" then he proceeded to talk about the centurion that approached Jesus asking for healing of one of his servants. The centurion didn't feel worthy of Jesus coming to physically see the servant but "only say the word". Jesus comment that He hadn't see such great faith in all of Israel. The centurion didn't have faith in authority but faith in who Jesus is and that Jesus is the final authority over everything else. It was about who Jesus is not about authority. This again demonstrates an abuse of scripture. There is nothing in the in this narrative about authority for the sake of authority or being under authority as an umbrella of protection or that family life is suppose to be a chain of command type of military style structure. The centurion saw that Jesus is the final ultimate authority because He is God and yes in seeing who Jesus is gave the centurion that understanding that Jesus words alone had power to heal and do things. It took a long time to rethink this narrative that Bill used as a prop for his umbrella teaching. To have great faith is to know and understand who Jesus is, it isn't being under authority for the sake of authority. WoF people also abuse this story too and they emphasize "saying the word" and that there is power in the spoken word. Again, they side step who Jesus is. It isn't authority, it isn't power in the spoken word but in who Jesus is and faith is in Jesus, nothing more, nothing less.
If the Gospel's point was chain-of-command authority, why wasn't the Centurion advised to seek help and guidance from his Tribune, Legion Commander or Roman Governor rather than bypass his earthly authorities and go straight to the Son of God who was NOT recognized by the Centurion's authority structure?
My other thought on all of this is about the stories Bill used as examples to support his hypothesis that to have faith in God, one must submit to the wishes or desire of one's parents, even if one is a legal adult and seeking God out themselves. It is curious that Bill used examples of young adults that are trying to follow God in either marriage or ministry while their parents who may not be even trying to follow God at all are against the choices of their children. Again the best answers to Bill's stories are real life stories of those that were seeking God or trying to follow what they felt God was calling them to do and it went against what their parents wanted for them. The best example I know is St. Francis and Clair of Assisi. I was a big fan of St. Francis when I attended (still am) the seminar and his story if familiar with it, he had a very public break with his father, renouncing his relationship with him in the town square. St. Francis then went on and his religious movement became one of the middle ages biggest revivals. It goes against everything that Bill said would happen to someone that doesn't submit to the wishes of his parents instead of following what they think God is calling them to do. St. Clair of Assisi, ran away from home in the middle of the night to join St. Francis and started the Poor Clairs the female counter part. These are real stories of real people that put following God above the wishes and whims of their parents. The stories Bill used were not about young people that were in out and out rebellion with parents and God but young people that desires to follow and serve God which may go against desires and plans of the parents. There is nothing in any of the the examples of Jesus interaction in the NT where He told people trying to following Him, to go check with the family first. The young man that told Jesus let me first bury my father before I will come was told by Jesus to "let the dead bury the dead and come follow me". Bill's advice really is out of step with the Bible and I can only image what damage it did to those that followed it.
Much damage. Very much. Great points, Rob!
I'm so glad to be free of this now. Do I still ask wise people (including my parents) for advice? Of course. But I'm now free to also trust my gut. And I'm free to try things and fail and try again. If we are never allowed to make mistakes, how would we ever learn anything?
Protection is wonderful. But there is a point at which too much protection becomes oppressive.
One thing that is a tad overlooked is the poor guy in this equation. Dad did not sign up to be an umbrella and this put more pressure on the men than they could bear. I know. Talk to them. We have an ATI parents page on FB. The "Umbrella Guy" was supposed to have all the answers for everything in order to "protect" his family. Sick? ask Dad what to do. relationship problem? ask Dad what to do. Kid naughty all day? Burden Dad with it instead of taking care of it, walking on, and discussing it like adults at some time convenient and peaceful to both of you. The men had the world on their shoulders when they just wanted a relationship with the fun wife they chose to marry - where did she go? Good Heavens! The guy was trying to earn an honest living - especially when there were 14 kiddos in the fam! We only had 4 at the time and before we got into this mess we just enjoyed them SO much. Well that went to the wayside (although we always have enjoyed them) and became second to making them perfect. Arghh. It is unrealistic and biblical. We are to train our children in the ways of the Lord, look to Him for answers, and lead quiet lives before Him. In fact (rebellion alert) God may just show the WIFE what to do about something, which she does and all is well. No guy involved or needed and all is peace. Look in Prov. 31. Where was her Umbrella as she made all of those executive decisions? My husband likes my brains. We are not out to change the world with our dresses and old English and perfect children. Talk about p.r.e.s.s.u.r.e.! Can you tell we were in the program for a while? We know of that which I speak. This umbrella business is hogwash. If you are in - run. fast. Your joy will leave and you will become critical and have an unhealthy marriage due to looking at each other in ways not intended. Your husband is NOT an umbrella. Just sayin'. And as an aside, if your children see you make wise choices in peace and your love for them and the Savior, they just may come to you for advice on their own - they know you love them and are not out to perfect them. How pompous! To even think for a second we could do such a thing. We all knew that reality would come to a certain reality show sooner or later - the one with so much perfection. I mean them no ill. No holes in that umbrella - just reality. People being people.
I meant to say "unrealistic and unbiblical" in the above post.
Great stuff!
Excellently said about joy disappearing. Hogwash...exactly!!! People are people. well said.
Here's some things to chew on about all this "umbrella" stuff.
1. Marraiges affected
2. Child to parent affected.
3. Singles
How did all this umbrella stuff work? I am not giving a full explanation, but...here are some things I have realized after reading a comment by Don Rubottom above.
Don..you nailed it! A kid would never be safe if a parent/when a parent could twist a perception to their liking. And use the "umbrella" to achieve full control over their child's actions and behaviors...the robotics in Gothard's world...are from satan. No doubt about it.
satan wants people to control people, so he can control them, and make them fear God as a mean control freak, rather than as the loving, emotional, joyful, sad, expressive and perfect "human" in Jesus Christ that He is. The insightfulness was often..mockery of all that the Bible stands for, because God is not "Allah"...as in "If God wills it".
But God is...powerful...in LOVING and overcoming evil! not to shame people, but to free them from sin! Gothard had no view of sin as evil, he only viewed anything HE didn't like as evil. Bleh. He used so many "loopholes" to give parents the "answer" to everything and lead to parents making children basically into slaves, who had to cater to their whims.
Real love, even when involved in legalism, will still come through.
I have known many legalists, who I know loved me, even though they were...legalistic. But I have also known legalists who did not love me, legalistic and condemning.
I think this is how some people can make it through the world of legalism...still able to love.
I know I can! and have! And I still even love some of my legalistic friends! HA! I won't kick them out, because..they are my friends! But I don't accept their legalism. Some like me still, and tolerate my "liberalism". ha! But others...to them...legalism is more important than people.
That is when I know that satan, not God is in charge of their hearts, no matter how liberal or legalistic they are.
To me...love can still shine through in legalistic households..or in liberal households, because...all love really is a reflection of the goodness of God! And that is HOPE for all those who have been hurt in legalism. but those in BG who still sometimes support him, it's because..they had "friends" who loved them. Fine...so did I! But I do NOT support anything of BG at all!
And though I loved those caught in BG, they cannot recognize it, because...BG also taught people to hate anything that contradicted him. And some chose to follow not only his teachings, but his thinkings on how to relate to people.
Deep down...I think BG hates humanity, is deeply resentful of him having made his own choices in life about being single - he could have married.
Me..the women who has been single for many years..I've seen a LOT of the stories behind why men stay single...and players in the Christian world...there are many of them! BG was a player!
Bottom line!
And he had "thousands" of wives who idolized him over their own husbands!!! SICK!!! THAT is how that man won over the hearts of so many women in the Christian world. They idolized HIM over their own husbands....wow, I just had an AHA moment. It all makes even more sense now. I get it SO clearly.
When disillusioned women couldn't have their husband meet their expectations, they worshiped...BG.
Bleh...this just makes me sicker and sicker and no wonder so many Christian women believe in divorce now!!!! He promotes it, without saying he does! the many women divorce so they can find a "better husband"...like Bill! Yet, Bill doesn't exist..he is just a man in a building who wrote books.
SO MUCH IDOLIZING!
And this gives me a totally different take on why so many women who were unhappy at home..wouldn't work on their marraiges, but instead...worked on their kids!! UGH...What a mess!!!!
RW you give alot of truth there.
And... Bill could be worshiped because he didn't seem to do anything wrong. Our husbands actually lived with people and had accountability set up in the form of a family - if they were hypocrites, we would see and know. Families are just like that. Bill, on the other hand, was like a monk - no one to cross him - and could be nasty without those close to him knowing. And the girls were scared to say anything - I would have been scared too. What a set up. May we not be whitewashed tombstones but people with substance. Repentant when we are wrong and real.
Not sure that we could define Bill as a Monk. There were many around him all the time, but he would pull people aside, and isolate. Families can do that also. In Gothard's world, isolation pulled people away, and children had to watch their parents be the hypocrites right in front of them, but because the parents wouldn't want to have to admit their parents had flaws and hurt their friends, the children would fear speaking up against such isolation.
Saw that firsthand. Parent's not allowing children to develop friendships unless it was always for the most part in their own house. And the supervision of the "courting" children...yet the sneakiness of the many kids who want almost all the way, yet lied to their parents about it.
The hypocrisy was and is there, but the families will never admit it because it'd mean having to admit that people outside their family were hurt, and had to bear the brunt of the anger that existed in such families.
It isn't just about families...people are accountable to people all around them, and God didn't say "only have a family". He asked people to be brothers and sisters to each other, in Christ. But Gothard, didn't want any member of a family having a relationship with anyone unless he approved it, which led to parents seeking to get Gothard's approval on friendships for their own children.
Thus...when someone shows up to say "this stuff is bad"..they are immediately given disrespect and torn down by the parents for exposing the sham of Gothard like actions and lives.
Bill was hardly a monk. He was daily in the spotlight and very in the open. What is horrible is that MANY people saw this stuff over the years and never exposed it!! And that it takes some girls, the victims of his specific advances to have to come years later, when they finally get past their fear, to speak out.
So, yes I agree...they were scared to say anything...but there were MANY who saw this stuff and stayed silent.
OR..made a lot of noise when someone did speak up, so as to discredit or make the whistleblower appear to be the bad guy.
That..I know from firsthand experience...whistleblowers are never thanked, they are merely doing something no one else had the guts to do.
As for repentence, the many who followed Bill Gothard, many are the whitewashed tombs, some unwittingly, because of their ostracizing of anyone who speaks against Bill Gothard or anything that resembles Bill Gothard. That isn't about lack of repentance, or about being a whitewashed tomb...that actually sound like Bill Gothard's words happening there, to say "if you speak up against wickedness, you are judging". No, not judging, just exposing the sin, which God does call us to do as believers. The sins of the incestousness that existed in many of Gothard's families, with daughters worshipping fathers, yet scared of them, the mothers using sons to do tasks, that fathers should have done, the sons disrespecting sisters, and verbally assaulting them as inferior when they made mistakes. The whole system is just vile from satan, and it led many Christians astray into it's lies, because well intentioned people, unfortunately...were wanting to look good in people's eyes, and not living merely for the Lord, but seeking men's approval. There is some responsibility on those who seek men's approval, even in the Gothard world.
I sought some of that approval at one time...many years ago, and decided I would not do that again.
But, I also saw that when re-encountering the Gothard people...which I didn't even know still existed, it was a choice...stay silent and be fearful, or speak and know the consequences could mean that people covering up the sins in the families.
As for nasty...I know that I have not ever encountered a nasty person, except in the Gothard world...or someone who was truly in the darkness, as in alcoholic, or someone very much into rebellion against God.
But the venom found in the "self-righteous" of the Gothard world...their venow was deep, and anyone who spoke against it...was attacked with such venomous accusation in order to discredit them.
If you know of how Bill was "nasty" as you say, it couldn't be that people didn't know, but that they ignored it. Bill was likely not nasty, but clever and covered up his sins, as all his "confessions" do.
Thus...those who follow him, follow in his footsteps, sadly continuing with "sweet words" the way that he functioned. That is why it's more important that people be real, than lie and cover things up, either as a participant or as an observer.
Bill did things wrong and people knew it..but covered it up. I see that happening with many who were in Gothard's world, the cover ups continue, and the behavior of the people doing such nasty(aka swearing/porn/humor at others' expense) via whatever social media option they can find, it is still there, but...people continue to ignore...just like they ignored Bill Gothard's behavior. Which is astounding to me, considering that people who say they have moved out of BG's stuff, often end up with the same mindset, just not using the same words or "guidelines" that he held to.
So...even though husbands lived with families...many in those families would never dare expose their own parents hypocrisy because...they feared they might lose the relationship, but as many of the Gothardites, move out of Gothardism, they confront their parents...and bluntly, and it has caused family losses, and divisions.
If the hypocrisy was exposed...then Gothard's world would not have been allowed to continue so long.
Having seen the testimonies of the girls, who lived in such fear of "men" for most of their years, and then married others who were also in Gothard's world...they still lived in fear...of losing their husbands, or vice versa, and the ability to see past the immediate world, blinded many to how people outside the immediate Gothard "family" was hurt.
As for being scared..I saw firsthand, having experienced such treatment from men in High School and a Christian school, but God rescued my family and we moved. This guy wasn't even Gothard, but a wicked man...and cruel hearted. It wasn't until years later I found out he had "spanked" my brother. I just knew I didn't like him at all.
Again in a new Christian school, I found grace and love and not much of the hypocrisy, but it can exist there just as it can in homeschools.
In the Bible College setting, graduates of Gothard's world, advocated superior attitudes towards others, often excelling academically, because rote memory and spit it out, is easy, but not relational, and thus they were very smart, even validictorian types, but...didn't know how to make and keep friends, except maybe one or two they knew since childhood.
But those who could truly love people...legalistic or not, were the ones who could develop many friendships, and keep them, but not have to hide to ensure that the "family sin" wasn't exposed.
In fact, most of the people I know who have come out of Gothard's world, are very real, very vulnerable, have emotions, express them, and enjoy life quite a bit, but it's only when they realized that the rules of Gothard were hurting them and their parents, and thus the children...had to almost become the parents, to train the parents to...not be so mean, or controlling in the choices that kids made.
So it explains how Gothard could get away with much hypocrisy and much of the "tombstone" mindset...because when someone did wrong...he or another, it was ignored.
I see this with current Gothardite followers...who still hide, and yet vent their anger at anyone who dares to speak against him or against people in that system.
I am glad you have woken up and pray it continues and that those you have hurt, that you will go back and apologize, as I had to, but also that people who do things wrong...that they do get confronted, not just ignored..which is what people did with BG and it's taken this many years for his behavior to finally be exposed.
I just care too much to want people to have to wait that long...and thus here on Recovering Grace have found people who "get it" about how outsiders are treated, but also that even insiders get mistreated if they "question" things.
It's quite sad. I was "scared" at times, by such types, but also...kept myself as far from them as possible.
But when blindsided, not knowing I had encountered them, yes, I blew my stack at them, stating openly how much the lies about me hurt, the slanderous statements made by parents, name calling "lesbian/bipolar/emotionally unstable/selfish/"....and yet...just for my saying...don't take $$ that you didn't work for, or don't complain about how you take from people and then expect them to never expect anything in return. Friendship isn't about taking advantage of people and their generosity, it's about mercy and love, but I have yet to see any mercy, love, apology, admittance of guilt amongst any in the "Gothard" world I met in recent years.
They would rather imply that the victim...is whining or being "dramatic" instead of admitting that they are setting such people up to fail.
Narcissism does that. And BG's mindset is narcissism and sociopathic at it's core. He made sure that he never had to confess sin, oh sure, he'd confess getting "caught" but not sin, only..that he was misunderstood.
He has no conscience as do many of his followers. And only controlling the "testimony" is what many of his followers advocate, until they just completely give up, and leave God completely, or just do whatever they want, saying "never mind what God thinks...I'll just make up my own version of Christianity". Thus...doing exactly the same thing Bill did...making up their own version of Christianity.
The idolatry of not only BG, but of self ends up being the cause of this deception.
That's why Gothard's cult is so similar to Muslim "control" mindset or to other cults or even resembles the behavior of families of alcoholics or drug families.
When people want to look good, but are doing bad, the lengths that people go to not have to admit the bad exists, can be a deep dark hole.
I see too many who have done this..and many of the children are now dating/marrying unsaved people, or doing things the parents taught them not to, like smoking/drinking/chewing/participating in activities that are just like the very people they attacked previously.
The standard they mocked of "unsaved" or "those liberals" is now what they live, if not worse.
Why? Because reformation is not repentance. Repentance means..turning around and changing. Many were just "reformed" trying to earn God's acceptance by good works, doing mission trips, church service work, serving "parents" in the home being "good children".
These are foreign to me, because my parents didn't live like that, but...I knew many growing up, who were "conservative" and they maybe weren't Gothardites, but lived similarly.
As I have seen Recovering Grace post on so many issues caused by such reformational "religion", it clarified for me, that those who only seek reformation by either "moving on" to do something spiritual, are not changing but hiding. It's not until a real admittance occurs that real repentance occurs.
And Bill Gothard taught nothing about repentance, but only about reformation, and thus many followers try to still reform, even though it's in a new setting.
They work to not do what is right, but to "separate" from the "evil". So in essence it's still...Gothardism, but under another name.
The reason Jesus called them "whitewashed tombs" was because...they were dead men walking. People who were dead inside, having killed off anyone who might "catch" them in a sin, or killing off anyone who threatened their dynasty.
The definition of "whitewashed tombs" given by Gothard was used to attack not to convict. but Jesus when He said it, it was because He was exposing that the Pharisees had no heart, and were out to kill people...like the woman caught in adultery, like the man who walked on the sabbath, and eventually, they killed Jesus, not because they were sinless, but because...they were angry that Jesus put them on the same level as the common man.
Every man is common, and every man is equal at the foot of the cross. Thus we have to face the reality that Gothard, created an "elite" Christianity system, that seeks to destroy anyone under him that isn't his "match". That is what Hitler did also. He even used religion..trying to say the Jews killed Jesus. No..sin killed Jesus.
So in the outcome of being freed from Gothard, it should result in full admittance that all are equal at the foot of the cross, but that all also then are sinners, and do need for sin to be confronted and exposed. Gothard didn't like that...because it'd mean he'd have to admit his sin.
And that is something that even those who say they are "freed" from Gothard...they still will not admit they have sinned and hurt people. The "cover up" still continues. So then, it's no longer about Gothard, but about them. They now know better...as did Gothard.
So on that...it's important that those who know better...then do right, especially when addressed on a sin.
David, King David, had anger at the sheep stealer, but when Nathan the Prophet, confronted him, he repented and acknowledged his sin, he didn't try to cover it up anymore, and he certainly didn't get angry at Nathan, who was just doing God's job as the human voice, since God didn't speak as often in a voice. It was becoming more and more that God used people to speak truth, because more of who He was and is as the I AM and as the Creator, Lord God, was now revealed and thus, people were more and more becoming witnesses for God. Thus God had prophets to speak the truth, when others wouldn't.
So...Recovering Grace is a prophet, and the ones who have spoken are merely just doing what God says to do "speak", and "confess" "admit" "repent" and also..."change".
Real change is what is needed even in the Gothard followers. I cannot blame Gothard for my current sins, but I can blame him for my ignorance that I once had and how I listened to him. But then the goal is to now...not advocate ever that just because a family is "God's plan" that it means isolate and only have the family BE "God's plan."
Jesus Himself embraced others around Him saying "These are my brothers and sisters". And Paul did the same, stating that we are to embrace our brothers and sisters in Christ with truth and love, just as we would our own family members.
"For we are one body". Jesus didn't isolate, Gothard did, and satan uses that isolation to shut down love towards anyone he can. This is why evangelism is SOO important! God calls us to love others, and to witness, but not to make projects out of people but to make friends.
Jesus calls us friends. The whole mindset that Gothard created of the elitist mindset...is just from satan and reeks of pride.
"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us".
That..is what is amazing!! And when people "died" to try to get the message across, it's because they cared. But often..they were put to "death" by the Gothard followers, who sought only to preserve "family image" instead of...truth and love.
Seeing this in many families over the years, it's the same pattern every time, and sadly, too many instead of seeking truth, end up hiding again, just in a different church, or a different world of "Christianity", but it's only to continue the ruse, rather than embrace Christ and real life.
I appreciate your honesty, and many others who have admitted the harm done by this system.
I think though that...the depth of what was taught, can still be residually there, due to it's a mind control set, not just an outward system, and as you said...fear did rule.
I was strong enough in my Bible College setting to ignore it overall, but I still had my own weaknesses to want others' approval.
Anytime we seek a person's approval, we are not seeking God. Notice I didn't say, seeking His approval, but seeking God.
God isn't about approving or disapproving people. He is about us seeking Him for a relationship in order for Him to change us, not for us to impress Him or be gaining His approval.
There's a lot more to this "gothard" stuff, but, the key is...being real means...being honest, and not covering any of the lies with more "spiritual" lies.
That is just doing what Gothard did, but no longer doing it under his "umbrella".
Too many powermongering/control freaks that do the same as him, all because...they can't accept others flaws.
yep.
wow. Lots there RW. Please consider as well that Gothard is not unique. Many of the problems you identify would exist without him. He simply made an industry of the perverted Christianity you refute here. Bless you for your honesty and Bless God for showing you so much of His Good Grace in spite of the mistreatment you have endured from human beings.
Don...exactly. There are other men like him.
I think he set a precedent though of making such "types" of men accepted in the public eye, in the Pastoral role.
I have seen many pastors with similarities. When I say many, I mean many. I traveled during my college years, on a singing team, and hit over 300 churches during that timeframe. I saw many churches with similar "power" men, and the fear in those churches, fear of not being modest enough, good enough, pregnant enough, married "enough", quiet and submissive enough.
I saw a lot as an observer, but my own parents didn't follow such nonsense, but being around those types, for a period of time, I did wrongly measure my parents as "not meeting up to standard", and yet....they weren't doing anything wrong. Crazy how easily legalism can jump in and make normal people into "Horrible sinners!!" BLEH BLEH!
I saw pastors who said I should not be a "music leader" in one breath, but then said I should be in charge, since the male leader was so laid back(indecisive often back then.)
I would shake my head with "whaaaa??"
But I let it affect me and somewhat ruin my self-acceptance, that I had had for years.
the Lord had always been my stronghold, until meeting the legalists. bleh...they can take down anyone! but these guys, many of them were of the same mindset as Gothard, and so yes, you are so right! Too many power or control freaks out there in church settings.
Makes me all the more thankful for the Pastors who are...normal, flawed, and love Jesus and their congregation.
Linn,
In reading your comment about having gone to IBLP but not having parents who were involved enough to fulfill their part of the umbrella mandate:
Did you ever used to feel like the method of how to have a relationship with God was unattainable for you?
Because IBLP teaches that the ultimate gauge of our closeness to God is how centered we are under that umbrella. Am not trying to remind you of any pain, just wondered if you had initially felt left out, without means of having God direct your life.