Rejecting your God-given authority doesn’t just affect your personal life. It can destroy a whole nation. I mean, just look at the French Revolution!
In Wisdom Booklet 18, Gothard spends several pages discussing the the 18th century French Revolution. He chose as his “chief cause” the fact that many intellectuals of the day had rejected God in favor of Deism and atheism. But what does Gothard’s view of the French Revolution have to do with his followers accepting his teachings as the ultimate truth?
Primarily, it’s the chart on page 770, pictured below.
Gothard explains, “All government authority is ordained by God (See John 19:11). The proper picture of authority in any relationship is established when that authority comes from above (God to government, parent to child, and husband to wife).
The wrong picture of authority clearly illustrates Voltaire’s concept of vox populi vox dei, “the voice of the people is the voice of God.” During the French Revolution, chaos and anarchy were the tragic by-products of wrong attitudes toward the origin of authority.”
He follows it up with another chart (Gothard loves charts) on the same page showing the progression of France from absolute monarchy to absolute dictatorship. (In retrospect, I’m not sure what this chart proves, since the end result is pretty much exactly what it starts with.)
The caption reads, “‘Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity’ was the battle cry of the violent masses during the French Revolution. The people of France experienced a horrible decade of anarchy and bloodshed because they violated Scriptural principles of governmental authority and attempted to establish a democracy that made every citizen a law unto himself.” (pg 770)
I’m not here to argue the merits of his historical interpretation. Most of us studying this section didn’t have the background to do that. I highlight this section to show that Gothard’s view of a “right concept of authority” for government is the same concept as “the umbrella of authority” that was the bedrock of our beliefs. We had no reason to question it.
Now, I’m pretty sure my family discussed how our country’s model looked different from this “right concept”—none of us wanted to live in a country where a monarch wielded absolute authority. We knew Gothard wasn’t saying that. He was very open in his patriotic displays.
In the 90s, the annual ATI conference in Knoxville usually happened over July 4, and I was in the choir with thousands of apprenticeship students who sang a medley of American songs. Remember the year that the pre-military boys’ organization, ALERT, rappelled from the ceiling of the arena and unfurled a U.S. flag during the choir’s finale? Yeah, that was an exhilarating moment.
But this patriotism hearkened back to a mythical golden age when most of America’s population was Christian and believed that “God’s Law”—as in, the Old Testament Law—should be the law of the land. Gothard was by no means the only person who taught this view. He echoed the opinions of many conservative Christian and political groups that our country had torn itself free from its godly roots and was hurtling toward utter destruction.
So his section on the French Revolution wasn’t just a history lesson. It was designed to reinforce our fear that we were going to suffer bloody and widespread persecution if we didn’t get our country back “under authority.” Using twisty logic and familiar concepts, Gothard managed to excuse himself from supporting absolute monarchy, yet still convince his followers that the only truly Godly nation based its laws on the Old Testament, administered by a government which received its authority directly from God.
The fact that the world has changed dramatically since ancient times—for instance, that women are no longer considered property for a father to keep pure until sold to another man—held no weight with this view. We wanted our nation to be blessed, and this is how God said it was to be done.
By this time, of course, God usually spoke in Bill Gothard’s voice—which I discuss in my next and final article.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES IN THIS SERIES
An ATI Education: Introduction
An ATI Education, Chapter 1: Under the Umbrella
An ATI Education, Chapter 2: Is It Just Me?
An ATI Education, Chapter 3: Thou Shalt Not Trap the Eye
An ATI Education, Chapter 4: The Law of Grace
An ATI Education, Final Chapter: Guilty Silence
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Sara Roberts Jones spent six years under the teachings of Bill Gothard, and fifteen years unlearning those teachings. She and her husband homeschool their four children with a strong emphasis on grace and cultivating their individual giftings.
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Bill took his ideas and views here from the Christian Reconstruction movement. The story of the French and American Revolution is much more complex than the simplistic presentation with an agenda that Bill presented in the wisdom booklets. Part of the issues with the French Revolution was that the rebellion was also against religion and in particular the influence of the Catholic Church on politics with monarchs and in society in general with the population and the blood bath was to remove religion from society. Bill ignores that part of the story. It wasn't just a rebellion against governmental authority. Despite Christian revisionism with colonial society, there were a wide variety of views and thoughts and religious groups that did not exactly get along but ended up working together and formed the government we have today. Yes, there was the Great Awakening with its influence in at least New England but other ideas were present as well. While Christian conservative revisionists want to paint George Washington as some kind of Evangelical Christian, he was an Anglican and a Mason and usually wrote about God in his writings as "divine providence". In other words, his personal views about God and faith are quite hidden.
Bill took this simplistic comparison in order to justify the American Revolution but condemn others. Bill also ignored the story of the Magna Carta which was the early precursor to all of this and that example of setting up limitations on governmental authority which the founders of American did point to as their example. Bill is totally inconsistent because he turns around and then condemns resisters to total governmental authority such as in Nazi Germany, Operation Rescue, underground railroad and other times when Christians have stood up against unjust and immoral government laws. He likes to point to the early Church but the early Church refused to obey laws that demanded sacrifice to the Roman Emperor as a god. Not to do so was an act of rebellion against the governments authority. He points to Daniel as appealing to authority but ignores the part where Daniel's friends refused to worship and were condemned to die. Daniel himself opening prayed when it was illegal later on. I remember reading Bill stating that the books of Maccabees were not included in the Bible because the brothers did not have the right "attitude" when they revolted against the Greeks. Again Bill has his facts mixed up and that is not the reason why the books of Maccabees are not included in Protestant and Jewish cannon of scripture.
Bill wants to set up a blind obedience basically to himself. He uses snippets of history to try and support his ideas and which for a majority going through ATI most likely did bother to dig further and find the real facts behind the French and American revolutions.
You say it and it seems clear. But it is still very hard to believe the man was setting himself up as absolute authority. Yet the evidence is there.
Ironically,BG, wants people to "submit" (whenever I hear that word in a BG context, why is it that I think of a mean pro wrassler putting a painful hold on an opponent?) to the U.S. Government, that revolted against England during the 1770s. If BG wants to be consistent, he should tell everyone that we need to apologize to the UK and go back to England's authority----oh well, no matter what, I will still have my tea or coffee at three ( but I' m certain that BG would find something wrong with that)! Happy Christmas, everyone!
What human "authority" structure supposedly resided directly above BG (if any in practice) that he himself should've been submitted to?
His hand picked board of directors from whom he kept important information while schmoozing them with "honor".
Should have been church membership, but that's not entirely a capable authority structure at times.
Especially if, as Gothard did, you studiously avoided accountability there!
Gothard has his American colonial history quite wrong. Although our Revolution was not as gory as France's, the colonists still rebelled against their "umbrella of authority." There is no way to get around that one. I'm glad that we had the Revolution, but Gothard's theology is not consistent.
The Great Awakening (several religious revivals on the American frontier between the late 18th/early 19th centuries) happened precisely because the church influence did not extend that far outside of the colonies. The frontier was unchurched, and many of the pioneers were unconverted with a lifestyle to match their lack of godliness.
It's sad that so many have based their lives on a lie, but even sadder that the main teacher had no idea what he was talking about to begin with.
Bill Gothard is a twisted human being who has NO knowledge of God, and was never called of God to teach others. I say this without apology, and the fruits prove it. Gothard's interpretation of scripture is not only destructive heresy, but it is so faulty that it is embarrassing. But as true as this is, those who continue to support him are partakers of his sin. Thank God for His faithfulness in opening the eyes of many.
Amen!
All too few people may have seen problems,but never saw the smoldering colossal mass of evil just beneath the substructure of a "moralist";dogmatically entrenching himself[if he could],to continue on with his yes men.He wants to make us all in his image.Don't think for a minute,he wouldn't go on for another ten years.We only have value supporting him;embracing his "truths";we're always expendable,for a fixed time giving him what he insatiably demands;then more programs,more suffering more deception.It really hasn't stopped.
The Declaration of Independence uses particular words including "necessity", "usurpations", "are and of right ought to be independent" all to justify the declaration in the eyes of all mankind. This was revolution, it was a divorce of one people from another, but it was not simply rebellion against authority. How many remember that John Adams successfully defended the British soldiers accused in the Boston Massacre? It was a very complex set of circumstances arising out of circumstances that, having set thousands loose on this continent to live as free men, the British were not up to successfully controlling the jurisdiction from 3000 miles away. But no kings were decapitated, no priests were drowned, although a few loyalists were tarred and feathered and a whole lot of tea in very many towns was maliciously ruined.
^^^^Rob War, I remember this, too:
"Bill stating that the books of Maccabees were not included in the Bible because the brothers did not have the right "attitude" when they revolted against the Greeks."
I guess wishing him a "Happy Hannukah" (not that I would) would come across more to him as a "Happy Witchcraft Day".
Remember the "Rebellion is like unto witchcraft"? Coupled with a statement that went almost exactly as:
"To rebel is to think, say, or do anything against a God-given authority". (I've long buried my Red Notebooks in storage & so don't have the actual wording). Maybe someone else has the exact quote at hand?
How on earth can all those girls now have been "obligated" to speak against Mr. Gothard's inappropriate touching of them when any realization of this wasn't even permitted to register in their minds.
I wonder what Bill thinks about Jesus celebrating Hannaukah (John 10) because this Jewish celebration is in commeration of the rededication of the Temple after the Maccabees revolt. But since they didn't have the "right attitude", then Jesus shouldn't have been in the Temple celebrating it. I remember when I read Bill's analysis here, I really didn't know much but the comment struck me at that time as very odd. Maccabees along with other books were originally included in both Christian and Jewish cannon of scripture. Jewish Rabbis around the time of the 300-400 AD dropped them but the Catholic Church continued to include them as sacred scripture. Even a number of Protestant Bibles include this grouping of books even if not considered sacred. Original KJV included them. It shows how screwed up Bill was about history. Whether one sees Maccabees as part of the cannon of scripture is one debate but that debate has nothing to with their "attitude" in the Maccabees revolt.
I think the Jewish "canon" is a little more complicated than you assert here. I've read a very interesting Catholic book about the Apocrypha which actually gave me a lot of assurance regarding the canon. They teach that those books were not authoritative to Jews and so not used to justify the Christian doctrines to Jewish audiences, although they had special place in internal Christian worship and writings. Very interesting to read the Catholic views. The book is WHY CATHOLIC BIBLES ARE BIGGER, by Gary Michuta. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Catholic-Bibles-Are-Bigger-ebook/dp/B00E99AU1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451416637&sr=8-1&keywords=Why+is+the+Catholic+Bible+Bigger%3F
Yes, and I have read the book by Gary Michuta and it is excellent. (just finished it). Yes, I totally understand that it is much more complicated on how and why and which books were accepted into the Jewish canon and the Catholic canon and then later the Protestant canon. I think what I was trying to say that the verses in the Torah that Bill quotes concerning "crying out" are not even interpreted and used the way Bill has by even Jewish Rabbis. In other words, Bill has stepped out of the bounds of Judeo-Christian ethos and thinking. He actually has stepped into Islamic views even though our friend Alfred over there doesn't want to talk about it . But that is what Bill lines up with. Now, Bill probably and along with his brother was trying to grasp at some kind of straw in order to justify themselves. Steve wasn't abusing staff girls because none of them "cried out" But that isn't the point on whether they "cried out" or not. The behavior was completely immoral and in the context of employment situation, illegal. Gary Machuta did a great job with that book and his research and glad that you read it.
Funny, because Jesus did observe the Feast of Dedication, which is....Chanukkah. See John 10:22.
yuk. Confusion-spreading yuk.
I greatly enjoy reading your articles, Sarah Roberts Jones. I am now a PhD student in Medical Sciences but have not always been so lucky to be able to have a bird eye's liberal view of government and society at large. Having gone through the ATI curriculum fully including all 54 booklets and having started them a second time nearly completing the half-way mark, my concept of society was shrouded with misconceptions and lies. When I first entered society, these misconceptions were in my subconscious mind creating turmoil at many turns of the road. Still now, I often do not think or realize the implications of this male-dominated, Gothard-centred education and how it has affected my subconscious thinking. When I read your articles, these distant memories come to my mind and I am able to "reprogram" my thinking, helping to eliminate contrasting feelings. I often do not read other articles on Recovering Grace website, but I always return to your articles because you capture in full detail how to bring the subconscious to consciousness so it can be fruitfully understood and evaluated. Thank you for this; please keep the articles coming. We will read them!
The subconscious mind is powerful. We iften believe lies and untruths as a result if the numerous false teachings which we have faulty believed.
The opposite of a false teaching like Bill's is not often truth. One of his defects was he tended to presume that the opposite of the world's false teaching must be true. (I.e. the world loves sex, so Christians must hate it. WRONG.) He was wrong and you should be cautious taking a similar approach. Test the spirits. Test all teachings against the revelation of God in Christ and the Scriptures. Even Bill's. Even "science".
Merry Christmas to all & to all a good night; thank-you for the fellowship all year.
The antithesis of the "grace" (non-grace) we learned (and many of us taught our children as we raised them) in ATI can be heard in this song - at least a small bit of the grace I missed after starting down the road of bondage.
Enjoy and Merry Christmas RG and those who come here to be helped in walking away from wrong thinking. Thank you Recovering Grace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYiM-sOC6nE
Did BG see himself as the "authority" that the ATI, IBLP, seminar attendees and gothardites in general were supposed to follow and obey? (I am surprised that the gothardites don't wear WWBGD bracelets). Would it be a dilemma if a pastor forbid gothardite parishioners from having anything to do with ATI, etc? After all, the gothardites are told to obey those in authority. All the gothardites that I know of have been told not to buy health insurance. With Obamacare and the mandatory insurance purchase, would gothardites obey BG or the government? I would think that would be another gothardite dilemma. Just wondering. Happy Boxing Day!
Gothard was the deciding authority. ATI families were notorious for stirring up controversy in churches where a pastor's opinion conflicted with Gothard's. However, avoiding actual legal trouble was a virtue, so a good Gothardite could often trot out a verse to justify doing something to please the government.
Ummmm, look, i have never cracked open a wisdom book, but look around, our country is descending into chaos and we have (collectively as a nation) sought to get out from the authority of God's law. Seems to me like he might have a valid point here.
Having never cracked open a wisdom booklet you cannot know the unscriptural teaching/control BG sought to take from God himself and desire/cause others to look to him for wisdom rather than from God, scripture and the Holy Spirit. IF, you had opened a book you would have seen how instruction was not centered on scripture but on a few verses will the insides filled with opinion that one was not free to disregard if they wanted to stay in the program. So, you were force fed opinions many of which are controversial.
Students NOR parents were allowed really to have discussions where individuals were able to give their own insight, we were to clone our thougts after 1 man.
Nowhere in scripture would you even come close to concluding this.
God and God alone can and has led millions to himself without the printed word through the centuries. He does not need 54 books and one man to distract from HIS goals.
That's a pretty narrow view of history. Is our time now really much worse than in previous times? We tend to trade off which evils we correct and which sins we excuse. As with most of Gothard's points, it's got a little merit and a whole lot of skew.
Excellent response, SaraJ.
" a little merit and a whole lot of skew." Like.
Walk a mile and several years in our shoes before casting judgment. If you were forced into being in such a home school program and " way of life ", you may have come to a different conclusion.
Job's friends all had "points" but they were presumptuous. Gothard was similarly presumptuous. The Iranians and ISIS say the same things about our culture being godless. That they have a point does not make their alternatives righteous. Jeremiah Wright, Jerry Falwell, Louis Farrakhan, and the Westboro Baptists all agree that America is under the wrath of God for unrighteousness, but they cannot all be right about what to do about it! Please offer something constructive beyond that a broken clock can be right twice a day.
When that broken clock is right can never be known, either, if that is the only clock one has. If one has a functional clock the broken one should either be thrown out or repaired, but one does not use a functional clock to see the two times the broken one is correct.
Grateful, the trick here is that a flawed view of authority is no cure for what ails our country, which is a flawed view of authority. More or less, one person is setting himself up as the authority in all matters of faith and practice....now is that person Bill Gothard, or Barack Obama? Like you, I've seen very little of Gothard's work directly, but knowing what I do, a lot of his teachings do cast the church into chaos.
Two recollections:
First, rappelling over the audience was foolish and risky. I was concerned (I have been an accident prevention professional and this was 40 accidents waiting to happen), offended and embarrassed. But Alert never had to follow safety protocols that reasonable persons would adopt because they were building GODLY men, not just manly men...
Second, one of the excessively patriotic flag waving opening ceremonies involved superimposing some Christian symbolism on top of the American flag, thereby dishonoring the flag (displaying it in a manner unacceptable under the flag code) and mixing the nationalistic and religious sentiments being stoked. I encourage my own church to not fly the flag during worship services so as to avoid any mixing of sentiments. A good Christian is a good citizen. But a good Christian also does not confuse national patriotism with devotion to God. A good Christian also does not let his nation's enemy believe that he cannot reach God because God hides behind or under an American flag. Patriotism is the last redoubt of a scoundrel, particularly many religious scoundrels. Remember "The Music Man"? Moral corruption, I tell you! We've got to DO something about it!
Were you in ALERT? I'm just curious - I completed the entire ALERT program in 2004 (I was in Unit 28) - your statement that ALERT (it's all caps by the way) "never had to follow safety protocols..." is very broad and actually untrue. I'm not coming to the defense of IBLP, ATI or ALERT - like anything else in my life I have learned to eat the meat and leave the bones. I do acknowledge that there were things that were done that were wrong - but there were also things that were right.
Remember that most of the wrongs were done at the top of these organizations - and trickled down. Hold those people responsible but don't forget to season grace in your conversation and extend it to those who are in the lower ranks just trying to do the right thing.
I loved my time at ALERT - of all of the IBLP organizations they have and continue to try to do the right things serving in areas where you will rarely hear about. Have they had issues? Of course - but I find your blanket response offensive and lacking in credibility - you have not seen what I and many other ALERT men have done behind the scenes during national tragedies when most of the rest of the Church was warm by their fires - I'm sure you can sense I'm a little heated - I don't know your background and I'm sure you have made sacrifices as well - just don't fan flames about ALERT's intentions without having firsthand knowledge about the safety protocols that are followed.
It should also be duly noted that the rappelling occurred over the stage at the Thompson Boling Arena - and not over the audience as stated in your post - and this exercise is done under the supervision of safety officers. Again - be careful in your blanket statements that make little bends in the truth.
I have no recollection of superimposing imagery over the flag so I cannot comment on that - but I do know what the ALERT handbook has to say about honoring the flag and have done a few push-ups in reference to that so I will let that speak for itself.
I agree with your statements about not mixing sentiments in regards to Christianity and Nationalism. The purpose of the opening exercises (at least the ones that I participated in) was to communicate a coming together of the various countries and states - and gathering under the flag of the USA.
Be objective - don't take occurrences out of the context in which they occurred just to fit your argument - state all of the facts - and be gracious - is that not the purpose of all of this anyway?
I weep over the sin that has occurred and the lawlessness that went on for so long - my heart aches for all of the young people who's lives will never be the same. But I also extend grace to all of the well-intentioned people in these organizations that are desperately trying to daily "work out their salvation.." I encourage you to extend grace and exercise good judgment in your future commentary - this is how we show the world a different path.
Rob, I am 59 years old. I have young friends who have been through Alert. I spoke in the extreme, obviously, if they ever once followed ANY safety rule, then I overstated my case. Please forgive me. I have heard tales of very dangerous abuse of motor vehicles at ALERT. I know that hundreds of innocent civilians were put a risk by the rappelling stunt at Knoxville and I know that the youth of some leadership in some ALERT activities created the unsafe risks (both emotional and physical) that other IBLP authorization of young people created, the cabins being a significant example. And you are incorrect, young men rappelled INTO the audience, one (a very young teen) landing in the aisle 3 feet from me. There may have been other demonstrations that were not as risky but they did rappel from the upper seats into the lower seats one year.
FYI, I also found the militaristic flag waving offensive in that supposedly Christ-centered environment. I am patriot, but those opening ceremonies with U.S. and state flags were intended to draw applause and stoke patriotic zeal. There was no Christ-centered purpose for that.
I do not believe I impugned the intentions of the organization. I have never criticized the public services rendered y ALERT groups. I have been a Boy Scout Scoutmaster. I took young men to Bay St. Louis, MS, 5 weeks after Katrina while they had no potable water, were under curfews and still occupied by National Guard. I returned about 13 times over the next 2 years to assist in recovery. I did not require military style training or any of the boot camp tactics ALERT used to be prepared to help my neighbors in disaster. Yes, ALERT has transmitted some specialized skills, but none of that required military style hazing, sleep deprivation, forced bible memory, etc., ad nauseum.
I note you do not dispute that there were even dangerous practices or actions tolerated. What you seem to miss here is that we have been addressing a number of young women who were abused and offended over many years by the argument "some good things are happening in that ministry". That is not an excuse. Godly leaders must be above reproach, not mixing good with bad.
I am very glad you enjoyed your ALERT days. Doing manly stuff in a "guy" environment is fun, liberating and builds self-esteem. But some young men have left there very wounded, feeling like failures. I hope you can see the pride that ALERT fostered in some. I hope you understand that pride is not of God. I hope you can see that the evils that permeated IBLP/ATI rooted in Bill Gothard's false teaching and legalism contributed to ALERT also being legalistic AND unaccountable, just like Mr. G.
So I apologize for saying "never". Nonetheless, both property and persons were unnecessarily injured by ALERT methods and that is regrettable. And many unnecessary risks were taken which by God's gracious mercy did not result in injury. I hope you are not proud of such risk taking.
Many of the young men who enjoyed it so much should have entered the military to get the real thing. Others did not need a uniform to make them feel strong and powerful. That desire for that feeling is not of God. EVER.
You have a myriad of assumptions and false statements in your reply so I don't know that my response can help you see or not but I guess I will try.
ALERT doesn't take anyone under the age of 18 - so there goes your "young teen" statement.
You state you have heard tales of vehicular abuse - no offense but what does that prove? That sounds an awful lot like gossip on your part - which I think is not Christ centered either - so are you just as upset with yourself as you are with ALERT for it's flag ceremony? Something for you to chew on I believe.
I'm not going to go through the long list of deployments I have been on or things I have seen or done - I smile just remembering the faces of the people I have helped. I don't require any praise from anyone for that.
When someone signs up for ALERT it is clearly stated what they are getting into. I fail to see hazing - I'm sure there have been wrongs - but I'm also sure wrongs have been committed by the Boy Scouts - and yet you are in that organization - why not throw the baby out with bath water in this instance as well?
I have met many of the men who have left ALERT hurt - and I weep for them (as I also clearly stated that I wept for everyone else hurt by ATI - I think you missed that part of my first reply) but let's not go and throw the baby out with the bath water in this instance as well.
Humans are sinners - I hold fast to my position that every ministry has done some things wrong - including ministries I'm sure you are a part of.
My point is this - ALERT is much more accountable (using a word you have used here without being able to back up your claim).
In the last days there will be perilous times - I am better for that because of ALERT - I did not want to go to the military - so that whole line of reasoning on your part lacks wisdom - why learn to shoot someone if what I really want is to help someone - you sound well educated - but this part of your argument just shows a dislike for ALERT and not an understanding for what it stands for or it's intended purpose.
I leave you with this - I will not comment further - why not cut yourself from all organizations that have ever gotten something wrong - that way these discussions won't be needed. In doing so - you would be a very lonely man.
{groans to hear the phrase "throw the baby out with the bath water"}
It must be gossip if you don't believe it. Tell me that you know that the young men given responsibilities at ALERT never damaged vehicles by abusive use and then you can accuse me of gossip. I know boys who went. You can call their tales gossip but it doesn't make them untrue. Bad reports maybe, but not false. There is a difference which is why B.G. tried to suppress bad reports. The truth would have damaged "his" ministries.
What the stories told me was that the place was not run by reasonable standards but was a place that accepted unacceptable risks.
The issue for me is that ALERT grew out of a poison tree. It's "good points" do not negate that simple fact. You lost your point, so I could not tell if you denied hazing or admitted it. That you acknowledge "many" leaving hurt is a sufficient indictment of the entire organization. You can teach people to help people without torture, forced marches, robbing people of sleep and any number of the "training" methods of ALERT. I did it in Boy Scouts. Why Scouts was not good enough when ALERT started, I cannot fathom. I no longer support Scouting, but it was more than sufficient for such training.
How many babies have to drown before you throw out the water?
I am surprised if ALERT did not take boys younger than 18 at the beginning. Please clear that up for me. I think an 18 year old should be working or in college. 8 week training programs for "helping people" do not seem "wise" to me. I tried to train my sons before they were 18 so they could be adults then.
Okay - I will comment further because you have clearly misquoted me and misrepresented me.
I am not arguing for the sake of argument - I am arguing for the sake of truth and hoping to mix in a little grace as well.
You stated that "...you acknowledge 'many' leaving hurt..." (the you being me - obviously) - and I would like for you to go back and re-read my post for this is not what I said. You continue to pick and choose elements of things to prop up your points. This is inductive reasoning and for purposes of healing and seeking truth you would be wise to use the alternative - deductive reasoning.
What I stated was that I have met many of the men who have left ALERT hurt - please quote me correctly. This deductively implies that I have 1. Reached out to people I know who have been hurt by things that have happened at ALERT and 2. Admitted that people have been hurt while at ALERT.
I guess I would pause you in your quest to castigate ALERT and consider that of course there are people who have been hurt, of course there are things that have happened that some involved with ALERT should regret and of course there were training methods that were hard.
So what do we glean from these knowns? 1. People get hurt - every day, everywhere - I fail to see why ALERT should change it's mission and method because people get hurt - maybe you should stay inside today because you run the risk of hurting someone. 2. The people who are at ALERT running training have sinned at some point in their lives - what do you know - they happen to be human. 3. Training at ALERT is hard - painful - difficult. A simple reading of the website material makes this abundantly clear.
Your vehicle comments intrigue me - to answer you directly - I have no knowledge of vehicles being damaged by abusive use (I was a squad leader for 2 consecutive basic trainings and was at ALERT for 4 basic trainings) but stating that doesn't prove that they didn't happen (just like your statements don't prove that they did). Our sample size is not large enough to be definitive on this matter and truthfully - if a vehicle was damaged at ALERT - it wouldn't be the first it happened on this planet by a young man - hence why I'm intrigued by your comments on the matter. It sounds like you think this is some kind of terrible sin - so I smile at the interaction on this subject :-)
So stories of vehicular abuse are the foundation of your argument that ALERT takes unacceptable risks? Again - I smile :-)
While I was at ALERT - Unit 30 happened. There is a gentleman who wrote elsewhere on this site who was in Unit 30 and did not make it through - but came back and completed Unit 31. I think both he and I would be quick to tell you that the level of difficulty between the 2 units was drastically different. Why? Because ALERT sat down in-between these 2 units and changed things up. This happens routinely which is why I support the organization - as opposed to some of the other IBLP organizations that languish in sin and do nothing to change their programs.
I fail to see what Boy Scouts and ALERT have in common. Why that is a comparison in your arguments is beyond me - much like your military comments - they aren't the same - read their mission statements.
ALERT is far longer than 8 weeks - maybe you should fact check.
ALERT is for those who are 18 weeks of age or older (this is readily available information on their website on the Basic Training application).
No one said that this should serve as a young man's first exposure to adulthood and no one said a young man shouldn't go to college or get a job so.....
All of the training methods you list - "You can teach people to help people without torture, forced marches, robbing people of sleep and any number of the "training" methods of ALERT" - are interesting. Torture? ALERT is hard - but not torture. Forced marches? Lol - rats this sounds sinful! The ALERT recruits get plenty of sleep (average over 8 hours every night) - but they would have no way of knowing :-)
It's not for everyone - and it will offend some (clearly you) but they state what they are about beforehand and the participants sign the dotted line.
I leave you with this - I and many other young men went through something that we voluntarily paid for and voluntarily decided to do and we accomplished something that makes me want to look up to heaven and shout about how great the Lord Jesus Christ is! I love that. Go ahead - bash away :-)
I apologize for offending your sense of caring and conviction. I have never seen the value of Alert in a nation that has an active and fruitful Red Cross and BSA. This was an early response that I have not changed although I have separated from BSA in light of its abandoning its principles.
I do not see the value of military style training for Christian service. I do not see the value of militaristic uniforms and command structure. I do see the connection between Alert and Gothard's high place of "authority", Gothard's emphasis on disconnecting from 'secular' organizations, the need of young men for adventure and purpose. You may see much baby to save in the bathwater. Your own comparison of it to all fallen institutions does not distinguish it. Your positive personal experience appears to be its primary commendation in your mind.
I suppose that if Alert completely disassociated itself with IBLP and Gothard's teaching, I might be more objective and fair in evaluating it. Until then, I have little motivation to take interest in the "good" when you refuse to acknowledge what I have criticized from my own first hand experience at the Knoxville conferences, or you minimize it by saying "everybody does bad things". Whatever. They rappelled over the audience and created unnecessary risk. Acceptable to you (or denied or ignored). Unacceptable to me. High standards? I am sure B.G. continues to be very proud of his Alert boys.
^^^^^^"I want that man's credentials!!!" If Mayor Shinn had it together enough to find out exactly who it was that had the town's ear, then we have every responsibility to appraise who we've listened to. And, upon close look, Gothard's widely touted credence does not hold up under first-hand witnessing.
Hi Rob. I appreciate the help you and others have done with ALERT
As a military wife, I just wanted to say please try not to think of the motives of a military member joining as wanting to "shoot someone" rather than help someone. That would grieve many brothers and sisters who are currently helping and have helped many through their service. And anyway, shooting someone is sometimes necessary to help protect others who would otherwise be shot, or worse.
Hi Lisa - that was not my intent - I have great respect for the military and the sacrifices made by those in the military. My point was that the military is far different from ALERT and the person I was responding to seemed to think that one was interchangeable with the other. In pointing this out I used an extreme example to help guide someone who was clearly blind about ALERT and the military.
Thank you for your service to our country - often those in the military are not recognized and I believe that those who are in their families and making sacrifices are recognized even less - so thank you for the sacrifices you have made on behalf of my freedoms and privileges.
Rob Wheeler said: "like anything else in my life I have learned to eat the meat and leave the bones. I do acknowledge that there were things that were done that were wrong - but there were also things that were right." and then Rob later said: "but let's not go and throw the baby out with the bath water in this instance as well."
I have a real problem with these statements. You are saying that you will support an organization that mixes some truth with error.
Here is a quote from Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church regarding charity: "It is a duty which every Saint ought to render to his brethren freely—to always love them, and ever succor them."
(Joseph Smith, in History of the Church, 2:229)
Now the above quote sounds all good and fine, but let's take a look at some of the other Mormon teachings. Mormons believe when they die, they will become gods and rule over their own planet having countless children with their multiple wives.
Until 1978, people of black African decent were denied priesthood in the Mormon church. Because they got turned black when they remained neutral during the argument/battle to determine if Jesus or his brother Lucifer would come to be the savior of the earth.
Should I be a Mormon because of the first statement and ignore the bones/bathwater in the last two statements?
I do have one more question Rob Wheeler, should I consider digging deeper into the teachings of the man who said this: "there is no such thing as white magic and black magic, all magical powers come from the same dark source"?
I do hope you will address all these concerns and not pick and choose as the usual Gothardite/Alfred way of discussing issues.
Rob Wheeler said:
"ALERT doesn't take anyone under the age of 18 - so there goes your "young teen" statement."
From the ALERT website:
Q: What is the required age for acceptance into Basic Training?
A: At least 17 years of age. Students under 17 can receive valuable training in character and life skills through Quest, a high-intensity one-month program offered annually on ALERT's campus.
(http://ati.iblp.org/ati/students/opportunities/alert/faq/#age)
Rob Wheeler said: "My point is this - ALERT is much more accountable (using a word you have used here without being able to back up your claim)."
Who is ALERT accountable to?
Rob Wheeler said: "In the last days there will be perilous times - I am better for that because of ALERT - I did not want to go to the military - so that whole line of reasoning on your part lacks wisdom - why learn to shoot someone if what I really want is to help someone - you sound well educated - but this part of your argument just shows a dislike for ALERT and not an understanding for what it stands for or it's intended purpose."
Now I am assuming that you are a Bible believing person from a protestant denomination. Most of them believe in a "pre-trib rapture", so I assume you do as well. Why pay to "prepare" for something you won't be around for? I would imagine the military over its entire existence had done more humanitarian work than they have done shooting. You should learn to shoot to protect those you care about and the fact that if a real event ever did occur where the ALERT people thought they could do something, you're going to have to protect yourselves and whoever you are helping. I know ATI/Bill Gothard wants his followers to shelter themselves from the world which would explain his ability to pull off what he has for the last 50 years. You take away peoples food and water, during a crisis they'll kill you ALERT types to get at your resources. I suggest ALERT stay out of the way during a crisis or a bunch of kids could get hurt or killed.
Hi Eric,
I wandered back through here many months after what I thought would be the end of the discussion - apparently you had something to add that I missed.
Oh for the pursuit of truth! I never said I would support an organization that mixed truth an error - that is a totally different animal than stating that right and wrong occurred! One cannot have humans present and not have right and wrong. The occurrence of error does not imply the acceptance or condoning of that error institutionally. Your logical leap here is very broad. Please think through a very thoughtful reply if you reply to this - my goal is truth, love and grace. I have been positively and negatively touched by the IBLP organizations and ALERT was one that was very positive in my life and continues to have a very positive impact on this world. In a later comment you talked about Gothard wanting his followers to shelter themselves from the world - this is not the case with ALERT.
I will let you wander off into your Mormon rabbit trail...
Used to be 18 - I stand corrected - however - I think my point on "young teen" is still valid I think you are building something of a straw man here since I'm arguing against a "young teen" statement and not arguing against a physical age.
You ask who ALERT is accountable to - who is any Christian accountable to? If you read my posts I mentioned something about ALERT changing its ways between Unit 30 and 31. That accountability comes from parents who send their boys and Alumni who continue to stay involved in the program. Who do you want ALERT to be accountable to? I think it should be accountable to those from whom it takes money - the parents - so sounds good to me. Thoughts?
You have placed my "last days" commentary in a box - do you read all of a scripture through the lens of a theological system? If I'm not mistaken the last days seem to begin after the resurrection - I could be wrong but I have since spent 4 years at a Bible College and I think I have at least a decent understanding of this. I don't think that "last days" needs to be narrowed up to fit a 7 year period of time that fits your pre-trib rapture world. Why would the NT constantly be telling believers to be ready as the last days were upon us if there wouldn't be any believers around?
Your closing statements reveal a heart that I am unable to relate to. ALERT is not the answer to everything - I merely feel like I am better prepared having gone through it. You failed to dissuade me from that feeling.
ALERT has been behind the scenes during many crises. I will smile thinking about it and smile at your commenting on something of which you know nothing. When things get rough in this world think of me when someone lends you a helping hand during crisis and smile because Jesus has put us here to accomplish His Glory for His Kingdom and this is our act of worship.
Peace brother.
ALERT use to take young men before age 18. When I was in Basic back in 2006 there were some 16 year olds.