“ATI is not user-friendly.”
That was the opinion of one former Advanced Training Institute (ATI) student, now an adult, who skimmed over the materials that our parents had to work with. He was right.
The Wisdom Booklets are the foundation of Gothard’s homeschool curriculum. There are 54 of them, and at a glance, they’re pretty impressive. They’re based on the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5, 6, and 7). Each booklet uses one or two verses to springboard into discussions of language, math, medicine, law, and history. With pictures and graphs and illustrations, each page seems to illuminate how God’s word permeates every aspect of our lives. It was an ambitious undertaking, and Gothard’s presentation is excellent.
Homeschooling was just emerging from its pioneer days when Gothard launched his program, and it’s easy to see why ATI appealed to parents who needed guidance to educate their children. The problem was that Gothard didn’t actually provide much guidance.
He issued a “Parent Guide Planner” with each booklet, but the planners provided very little practical help in teaching the concepts—especially since parents were supposed to teach the same material to all of their children, regardless of age.
Back in my student days in the early 90s, families were expected to complete one booklet each month, and eight or nine over the course of the school year. Once a family finished all 54, they started back over with the first one and went through them all again.
Gothard made a big fanfare over families who completed their Wisdom Booklets—especially those who made it through the whole set. One favorite tactic was to have families testify about how God sent them troubles and trials that exactly matched what they were studying in that month’s Wisdom Booklet. So studying about the eye meant that they discovered their youngest needed glasses. While learning about God’s provision, their van died and God provided a new one without their having to go into debt for it.
(By the way, I’m more honest than Gothard. My examples are mostly fictional, based on memories; but hundreds of ATI alumni can vouch for the fact that these testimonies were a real thing. Gothard’s anecdotes were completely unverifiable, and he passed them off as actual support for his points.)
So when an ordinary ATI mother found the Wisdom Booklets overwhelming and frustrating, she hesitated to complain. All those other mothers were doing fine. Obviously they didn’t have a problem with the Wisdom Booklets. In fact, they were so in tune with God that he sent them extra lessons in “life’s classroom” to reinforce the principles. “Maybe,” she thought, “the problem isn’t really the Wisdom Booklets.”
“Maybe the problem is me.”
And that was a terrifying thought. Although it was mostly invisible to outsiders, there was a real, heavy pressure within the ATI culture to uphold the standards. For instance, Wisdom Booklet #18 admonishes:
If an observer can find any inconsistency [in a godly Christian’s life], he then has a reason for not accepting that standard for himself. He concludes, “If it doesn’t work for the one who has it, why should it work for me?”(WB 18, pg. 737, first edition.)
Therefore, very few people dared to admit they had problems with the material.
Gothard made it very easy to conclude that the problem “isn’t the system; it’s me.” Parents and students alike were used to doubting themselves. The Wisdom Booklets cultivated that attitude, starting with the Wisdom Quiz.
Each Wisdom Booklet began with one of these quizzes. The questions were worded to elicit a certain answer, which was then shown to be wrong. On the copy of Wisdom Booklet #18 that I’m using, there are eight questions. The student who took the quiz got only three correct. That was par for the course.
There’s nothing like failing a “wisdom quiz” every month to make you distrust your own instincts.
ATI was not user-friendly. It wasn’t designed to be. It was designed to condition thousands of people to doubt their own abilities and look to Bill Gothard for the right answers.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES IN THIS SERIES
An ATI Education: Introduction
An ATI Education, Chapter 1: Under the Umbrella
An ATI Education, Chapter 3: Thou Shalt Not Trap the Eye
An ATI Education, Chapter 4: The Law of Grace
An ATI Education, Chapter 5: We the People Under Authority
An ATI Education, Final Chapter: Guilty Silence
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Sara Roberts Jones spent six years under the teachings of Bill Gothard, and fifteen years unlearning those teachings. She and her husband homeschool their four children with a strong emphasis on grace and cultivating their individual giftings.
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Gothard became "God"more thru A.T.I.A.than any other of his programs.Only a certain "few" would believe they "attained",and he gave them his own conferred "righteousness".Slowly,the "chosen" turned inward became enamored with itself,hence the Duggar's would be promoted;this from the leaven of Gothard which may be quite similar to the leaven of the Pharisees,Christ Himself warned us of.The outward must be impeccable,perfect in outward appearance,"sqeaky clean";yet one of the girls Gothard molested,Megan Lind,wrote an open letter to the Duggar family begging them to no longer endorse Bill Gothard,having thrown her into solitary confinement,for complaining to his staff about his advances.The Duggars never heeded.This is the result of the inner core of Gothardism,protected for years but now exposed,its adherrants becoming passive to its fruits.
Willy (female) Oct. 20, 2015
David,
Where was the 'open letter' to the Duggars posted?
Can we be assured that the letter was read by them?
I am astounded as 'it appears' this family has never investigated the accusations made against Gothard. Every letter submitted by these incredibly brave women, via Recovering Grace, maintains the same premise. It is obvious that he is a sexual predator to say the least.
Blessings...
This would be from "The Republic of Gilead",article.Megan Lind was groomed,put in solitary,and now testifies against Bill and all the props he used.Another very sharp,very biting non-protestant comment made years ago by Sergei Kiselyev was impacting my life to the point I was absolutely ashamed of being protestant;consequently I'm caught up in orthodox hymns,mysticism.Sergei's comments"Go ahead Billy,turn those children's minds into vegetables","Dollars in exchange for souls",and in case anyone missed his vituperative points,"You are not welcome in this country".{Russia}.So many angry comments were made against Gothard upon his new website,that a moderator was kept totally deleting them.Too late though for many were published on another website quite intact,one by a former driver,who knew all too well what he did and what he covered up.
I'm going to admit I really don't understand what you're saying about Sergei Kiselyev and how his is connected with Gothard.
ATI was not user friendly at. all. It was SOOOOOOOO difficult to really teach from that stuff! It was equally as difficult for the children to learn from it. Terrible. BUT - that was a blessing in disguise - that and the fact that it was so expensive. The blessing was: I knew many a family that did not join or dropped out because it was expensive and/or difficult and confusing to use.
Now, having said that, I would NEVER have confessed that during our tenure in the program. No way. Too much pride. Way too much pride. It HAD to work. Anyone not so "in the program" would have said "How on earth do you teach from this?"
I am glad to say I always augmented the program with real subjects such as history, spelling, math, tons of reading ... And thank God I have super bright children! (adults now)
Confusion pretty much sums up so very much of ATI/IBLP. Bill Gothard should have to do time by teaching this curriculum to a class of about 6 children ages 4 to 15. 5 days a week. For 12 years. :)
Confusion is an understatement. When I was young, I used to boast that I'd already done trigonometry, because there was a Authority through Accuracy (ugh, that title is a trigger) section on cosines pretty early on in the series. But I didn't really understand it at all. By the time I was finished, I didn't know what I did and did not know. My mind was a jumbled chaos of 'facts', many of which have turned out to not be facts. I've had the opportunity to make up a few high school credits since then, and the contrast between the ordered study of school grades and the randomness of the Wisdom Booklets could not be greater.
Thousands of students would relate to and agree with what you have written, The Quiet One.
Oh, those Wisdom Quizes. Is it a sign of a person completely indoctrinated that I got most of the answers right for most of the booklets? (Without reading the explanation paragraph below the questions and without reading the Scripture verse provided).
I do know my parents were confused at the answers some times, but they always attributed it to "something deeper we don't understand yet, which we will find out when we study the booklet".
I would answer your question yes - but with a smile. Gladly, you are out now.
My husband and I were just laughing and shaking our heads last night (not as though it is funny - partially at the unbelievable - ness of it all and that we let ourselves be so blinded) that we almost ALWAYS thought"what in the world? We would not have given that answer" when doing the wisdom quizzes. As The Q One pointed out, Titles of these things should have made sirens go off - and loudly! Wisdom Booklets. Wisdom Quizzes. Authority through Accuracy (boy, I had forgotten that one!)... I look at it now and see how prideful it made us (me) since I was just ingesting SO much wisdom on a daily basis. not.
Thankfully my parents did not attempt to homeschool my sister and me but we were brought up on a steady diet of Gothard. From reading Character Sketches at bedtime to going to seminars, our family lived by Gothard's teachings. The attitude of "It must be me..." sank into me without my understanding or awareness. I am 43 years old and to this day I am constantly fighting the battle in my head that it isn't just me. Everything that goes wrong is me, the misunderstandings are my fault, the things I see in hindsight as mistakes with my kids are my fault, and the list goes on endlessly. There is no grace, simply self-flagellation and blame. Thank you so much for this article. It has helped open my eyes as to one of the reasons I struggle so deeply with this.
I was the adult, not the student, in ATI IBLP, K, and I have so struggled with that. I am sure my family must as well. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. was always our fault. Always. THAT is THE byproduct of the definition of grace that stinks to high heaven - The desire and power to do God's will. It is rotten to its core since it is not in any way the grace the Bible speaks of.
Now I live in a freedom that says God is God. I am not. He can handle my failures as well as successes. No worries. He knows my heart and has in fact "taken out my heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh." He is so good. He IS my success - any I have.
Its kind of like the Masonic Brethren. All the hocus pocus leads you one step closer to the deeper secrets that the grand poobahs know. Actually, there are a lot of parallels that one could draw to secret fraternal societies. You are taught to deny your own reasoning, trust the initiated, keep it secret, wear the funny clothes... the list goes on and on.
I agree. Deny your own reasoning, trust the initiated (conference teachers and even young people who headquarters would have man the phone for our questions - lots of wisdom there...), others will not understand, wear funny clothes.
Grand poohbah. Cracks me up!
A few random thoughts. . .
I was thinking today about the music-- ever since my first Basic seminar at age 12, I loved the hymns that were sung at the end of the sessions by that amazing choir of all of us, united in our love for God and our desire to learn to know and follow Him better. It felt like what heaven must be like.
And then at OK City for my first ATIA seminar when I was 15 or 16, hearing some young men singing "I'm On the Battlefield for My Lord," and several other groups/families with musical selections, as well as being a part of the choir. The music was one of the things that spoke to me as a pure-hearted, sincere young person who was desperate to honor God and my dad, and I swallowed everything that was taught in all those seminars and sessions. Music is a very emotional thing, and is used to stir, excite, entertain, and enthuse people (think "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?"), and BG was very good using that tool-- one of his many tools, I guess.
And I relate to you, Sara, in that it has been difficult for me to learn to trust my instincts or myself, especially when answering questions-- I was trained and conditioned to always know that my answer was ALWAYS going to be wrong. It is just in the past few years that I even speak up in groups or give an answer and I'm OK with myself if I'm wrong. Too many years of never being good enough!
Gal. 3:1-3 (and further) jumped out at me this morning, as I've been reading your recent posts, and I am very grateful that God understands the foolishness of our hearts when we have "been bewitched" into putting "the works of the law" ahead of "the hearing of faith." He gives us His Spirit to begin again, and the blessing that the things that we have suffered are not in vain.
The music and that choir, oooh yes. You are very right. So many good and even transcendent moments wrapped up with the pain and frustration. It makes it all very hard to untangle. Add to that the habit of always being wrong, and it leaves you in kind of a mess.
Our children were in the choir in Knoxville year after year. They saw through all the hypocrisy but we did not listen the few times they dared to make comments. The young people just wanted to be there and get to know other young people - many of the young people felt this way. They were seen as rebellious and the other kids as 'goody two shoes'. Looking back now, I would have encouraged my children in having fun at the seminar, playing b-ball, soccer, swimming with other young people. THAT is normal. It was all discouraged - in fact a rule was made concerning it - spoken or implied.But I am off topic. Anyway, about the choir... when I read in one of the ladies' testimonies on RG that Bill Gothard was trying to 'pick her up' (my wording) under the bleachers at Knoxville, any good memories of the choir or Knoxville (there were VERY few) dissipated. It was sickening to realize what was going on with BG. And at a family conference, in a 'counselling' room, in cars and vans... No. No warm fuzzies for me.
It's seems like he used "good music" in a bad way in that the classic hymns you sang and heard are transcendent, and he used them to try and support what he is teaching and those memories are a pull back to his teaching and organization. These hymns created emotional ties back to those times. He didn't though produce these hymns, they predate Bill so when memories of those times come back try to refocus on the fact that "yes, these are beautiful hymns and music and they had nothing to do with his teaching, he just used them to keep me in the fold and not question what I was being taught".
Yes, Rob. I am a hymn lover and have many, many memorized. I have laid them down for a few years now and am finding it harder to recall the words I love so much. Part of the reason for laying them down has been that some are 'trigger points'. How sad. Beyond sad. In fact, many people who were in ATI/IBLP or the IFB church cannot read the KJV and some cannot read portions of the Bible (Matt. 6-8 for example - been there?). That is horrible. And I chose that word on purpose. I cannot think of anything worse than not being able to be encouraged, fed, built-up, admonished, and led by God through His Spirit and His word. To have the Bible be an actual trigger point. All that to say - Thank you Rob. Thank you for the reminder that the hymns are not BG's. The Bible does not belong to BG or any other cult or leader who misuses it. May God grant each of us the grace to move beyond the triggers. A HUGE help for me, about 5 years ago, was to pick up a Bible we had been given that I thought taboo. I love it. And the devotions and comments in it - on the sidebars. The Inspirational Bible - Max Lucado general editor. It has been a balm to my heart. Oh I cannot say how much. It is New King James and has lessons in it from a vast array of Christian speakers and writers - you name'em. Taboo no longer. God grant each of us the strength and perseverance and wisdom to let Him lead - not some man made nonsense (like KJV only... oops I said it. Tell the Wycliffe translators they have to translate in KJV only. hee hee) Thanks again for your gentle reminder, Rob. p.s. I have read Matt. 6-8 after leaving IBLP and LOVE what I read. I took off my IBLP/ATI glasses and it is beautiful!
In the name of full disclosure and to be completely honest, I do not think I would have learned all the hymns that mean so much to me now were it not for ATI. Yes. It is true. Nor would I have known some of the things I know. Even trade off? Oh my - no. Too much bondage - walking away the Lord Jesus, Who is full of grace and truth. But I am grateful for a few things I learned.
And I will add that I do still love the old hymns, and I love music-- BG can't take that from me! For as much damage as his teachings have done in my life, I'm grateful to say that I have been able to keep him separate from God. I have questioned (and changed) many things in life and in the things that were programmed into me thru IBLP/ATIA, but I have not questioned God or His love for me.
Julia Fetters, it is a blessing to see you, as a parent, being so honest about your experience in ATI. Thanks for your honesty and humility-- I hope that it has helped your children in their healing process.
Thank you Rachel, for your kind words and encouragement. I hope a bit of good can come of this whole experience - learning to really love God, openness and repentance with our children, help for other parents who are leaving. Our parent FB page has been a great place of healing for many. It is not a 'haters' page. It is a real discussion page where many have found help, encouragement and new friends. I can never speak for my children. They have their own reality. I only know no one was ever loved more than they are :) . Ever.
I love sacred music and hymns, but I loved them before we ever joined ATI. That probably saved me from inextricably linking them to ATI.
The ATI curriculum was developed after I was totally disconnected from anything Gothard. Were ATI booklets meant to be a complete curriculum? My 33 years of being a teacher are shuddering if that is the case.
I think that the Wisdom Booklets were purported to be a complete curriculum. However, I don't know anyone who didn't supplement in one way or another. Even staff families I knew (people who lived at Training Centers) were using ACE and other curriculum in addition to the Wisdom Booklets.
Early on, I know my family had the understanding that it was a complete curriculum. Later, I think we were encouraged to use the Bob Jones textbooks as a kind of supplement. I used to try so hard to fit the Bob Jones texts in with all the Wisdom Booklet projects. I wanted to be a missionary doctor, and I knew I needed high school science. It never worked. I used to blame myself for not being more diligent in my study to cover everything.
"if an observer can find any inconsistency [in a godly Christian’s life], he then has a reason for not accepting that standard for himself. He concludes, “If it doesn’t work for the one who has it, why should it work for me?”(WB 18, pg. 737, first edition.)
I'd definitely seen this as a pattern in ATI families-- the need to cover up rather than admit the struggle or sin-- but I figured it was something indirectly taught or a symptom of the pressure in general to "have a good testimony". It's somehow even more appalling to see it wasn't even a hidden or implied doctrine, but spelled right out in black and white.
The Duggars are just one example. I think they truly believed their testimony as a "perfect" family was the way to share the Gospel with the world. Sad.
Kay, this is a great point. Thank you for presenting it. Whitewashed tombs as evangelism. Sick.
wow wow wow. THAT was been my thinking for so many years - your quote from the WB."if an observer can find any inconsistency [in a godly Christian’s life], he then has a reason for not accepting that standard for himself. He concludes, “If it doesn’t work for the one who has it, why should it work for me?”(WB 18, pg. 737, first edition.)
Do you see why we needed to produce perfect children? Perfect marriages? Perfect EVERYTHING - from bread to our homes to our hair. If we failed, we were a poor witness. oh. the. pressure. Oh my. there was not enough time for much happy happy time. (thanks to God we had some! we are just that way!) ARGHH. caught. So many years caught in false teaching and it shaped my entire life.
Well, God allows U-turns, in fact rejoices in them! Praise to His name. May he bring multiplied health to those of us affected and our families. My own fault or not - He will cleanse and teach for His glory and then a REAL testimony is given! Signed - No Longer Whitewashed. Hallelujah!
Even after being out of the program for years, I still believed "it was just ME". In finding Recovering Grace I was blown away by so many accounts from fellow students and even parents who had been through similar struggles. That was such a bittersweet feeling of relief. It's NOT "just me". Thank you, RG!
I wonder if one could find these so-called "wisdom books" for fifty cents at a garage sale these days?
Todd,
Most of us pitched or burned the whole lot of them. I see red books at thrift stores and garage sales and either buy them to destroy them or hide I them.
Unless I picked up a copy of one of those booklets to study in order to point out the errors, I don't think that I could be paid enough to have one of those items in my house----LOL!
I wouldn't pass them on to anyone else. I wouldn't want anyone else to be destroyed by them. We kept one complete set of everything and destroyed the rest. The complete set is merely evidence of the lies.
This brings back so many memories and is SO "spot on". I never felt that our family "measured up" to the expectations of ATI. I think we went through the Wisdom Booklets at least 3 times. These memories brings tears to my eyes. Thank you Recovering Grace, for being a voice for the truth, and for your encouragement.
I am grateful to have been raised in a home that was free from religion. Peace to you all that have been abused within the institution of religion. May you all be able to recover and thrive in life.
God was not the problem. Not in any way. The problem was walking away from His grace and His ways to enslave ourselves in man's ways. and yes, that is religion.
Hi Julia,
I've been enjoying reading your posts lately, including this one. I especially enjoyed the one where you said you'd like to think the truth. I had a real response in me to that (Me too!)
This post reminded me of a book I've read called "Christ Versus Religion," which I enjoyed so much. I found a place where you can read excerpts from it online. Here are links to a couple of them. You can actually read the whole book online if you find the link at the bottom of these excerpts. I hope you like them!
http://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/CHRIST-HEALS-THE-WITHERED-MEMBER.HTML
http://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/CHRIST-INTRODUCED-OUTSIDE-OF-RELIGION.HTML
Hi Grace,
Thank you for the info. I will certainly look.
NKB, on what basis do you value peace? I am very curious about your views. Most here believe strongly in a Creator of all things Who loves us and wants to commune with us. Yes, religion gets in the way of that many times. But if you are a materialist, why would peace or anything else have value for you?
I'm not assuming you are a materialist, mine was a rhetorical question.
I'm also a former ATI student, now happily free from all religious baggage, and that includes Christianity. Some of us have done the unthinkable and looked even further in our quest for truth than simply seeing the BG tripe for a lie, and realized the whole thing is predicated on the ridiculous ideas of Christianity itself.
The absurdity of asking why a nonchristian would value peace is nearly breathtaking. I'm a married man with 2 great kids, and our very happy, peaceful family is completely non religious, but as do all humans, we enjoy contentment and happiness as much or more as any religious person.
Please realize that your defensive posture regarding your current beliefs is precisely the posture you (or likely any of us) would have taken had we been confronted by this material about ATI while still entangled and in the fold.
We're simply one more step removed and view your current position with the same incredulity that you would view those still enamored with BG.
Sorry, M, my question was directed at NKB. Why are you defensive when NKB did not feel the need to even respond?
I am not defensive but truly curious of the source of values for the non-religious. Are your arbitrary? Or have you simply borrowed the values of religion that you prefer while rejecting the foundational truths that God exists and we are not Him? When you assert the superiority of your found approach, why are you not subject to cross-examination? If you have simply never asked yourself why you value peace, do not be offended that I ask someone else to thing about that. Your input surely does not pursue peace, how do you decide when you want peace and when you want conflict?
Hi Don. I'm former ATI and I would happily try to help satisfy your curiosity on this point, but I fear it may be an uphill battle if, as a starting point, you truly can't understand why a non religious person would value peace in this life.
M Beachy, I would be curious why a person "happily free from all religious baggage" would even come here (RG). Maybe curiously or maybe closure? I'm not trying to be disrespectful but honestly asking.
Larne
I can't help thinking that whatever training went on in the Gothard Sr. household did not produce good fruit. Steve had problems, Bill was a lifelong predator and his brother David is under investigation or indictment the second time for bilking old people out of their money. The old man would be proud. I feel sorry for the sisters in that family who must be glad marriage gave them a new last name.
And as we look at the curriculum, I remember hearing that Steve Gothard wrote much of Character Sketches. Is it true Inga Cannon wrote much of those wisdom booklets? So what was Bill doing besides chasing skirts and making speeches?
"All those other mothers were doing fine. " Actually this one line sums up a whole lot about the American church in general. So often we are not honest with others and assume that "they" have it all together and "we" are the ones not so much. This can be especially true in fundy circles (in which i dwell, and gladly so). Our enemy loves to isolate and pick apart until the victim is rendered useless and defeated. Honesty and light make the darkness flee! fundy or not :)
I would think that even distorted religious material can have some benefit and educational value even if it is not truth. Gothardism and darwinism.....both are forms of indoctrination perhaps..... platoism which leads to humanism......can have its 'unrealistic' social expectations.....(for example...see they didn't know about this historical event in european history or celebrate this old european pagan holiday....therefore they are a foolish savage culture)....
I don't know if this method of constant indoctrination ever studied astronomy.... or behaviours of animals.....just general nature..... that may be a clue why it was unrealistic expectation.
moslem form of education...... there too.....there may be ex-moslems who can be very good astronomy teachers in our colleges.....despite constant indoctination style upbrining.....
I find that even many of the former ati students are VERY good at writing and very ORGANIZED..... unlike the standard american citizen......
(Note to the moderators: I welcome your input & suggestions. this seemed like the best page to add these comments to. And I'm pretty sure Larne & I used to know each other)
Part 1 (of 7)
I want to call this Part 1 of my response to the BG situation. This part is mostly about my own background, before ‘Gothard’.
Please permit me to share this perspective just using some initials (at least for now),
because although I am now a fully grown adult male,
I was verbally, emotionally, physically & sexually abused by my own earthly father before I ever attended my first seminar.
Because I believe my story & perspective will help many others, I want to share it.
However, I believe that revealing my full name in this venue will risk bringing unnecessary exposure to several other people,
some in my present family, some in my family of origin, some in ATI, and others, hence the initials.
I’m going to try to stay relevant, but I realize the moderators of this site may want this to be edited for any number of reasons, but here goes.
Today is day #9 since I first heard this news about these abuses by BG & discovered the recovering grace website.
Each of the first 7 days I spent hours reading the testimonies, praying & grieving through some layers of mild shock.
Each of those 7 days I have thought at the end of the day, that I have seen & heard enough,
and that I can let the matter rest in God’s hands. Then I would learn more.
BTW, on about day #3 I realized that I’m pretty sure that I used to know Larne Gabriel!
(I remember a “Larne”, because I had a distant uncle with the same name, but I didn’t recall the last name).
We used to be in a Bible Study together (I might have even been his group leader!),
and we ran into each other shortly before he left to become a pilot for BG.
So I not only give permission for the moderators of this site to give my contact information to Larne,
I would actually prefer that they did! I would love to reconnect with him!
But back to this sober news about the whole BG & ATI & IBLP situation.
This new & sad news was on my heart & mind as I would go through the day, and while I was lying in bed to fall asleep,
and soon after I would wake up as well. After much prayer I believe I am ready to share some things.
So please be patient, and permit me to knit together what at first might seem to be some unrelated threads.
I was born in the midwest, in 1957.
I’m the oldest & only son, & I have 2 younger sisters.
We were raised Lutheran, and my mother dedicated me to God at birth,
not just in the traditional Lutheran way, (being sprinkled)
but my mother actually wrote out a prayer to God for me at the time of my birth,
and I still have a copy of that wonderful prayer (that God has been answering!).
My earthly father was an alcoholic, a rage-a-holic, a racist, a serial adulterer, and a child molester
(The molester part was not known until later). He had been labeled a sociopath & a pathological liar as well.
Without being too graphic, I would just like to mention a few brief points about that.
The last time that my father began to molest me was in front of my sisters after forcing me to take my clothes off.
As I was screaming my mother came into the room to see what was going on,
(Because he always did things when she was busy cooking, or ironing for him or such in another room),
and I managed to escape into another area of our very large house.
I did cry out to God, and God hid me from him even though he came through the room where I was hiding twice,
and he should by all accounts have seen me, since I was stark naked & just crouched behind a small portable TV not far from the center of the room.
So when I knew he had gone back downstairs I snuck to my own room long enough to get dressed,
then hid in a stinky storage room near where our car was parked where we kept fertilizer. I was quite terrified.
This happened when I was 12 years old.
Perhaps 1 week later, I walked into our living room,
and saw him strangling my mother, with both of his hands around her neck, jerking her head back & forth while shouting at her.
And she was trying to reason with him. (They were both standing up).
He didn’t see me because I happened to come at him from directly behind him.
I knew that I could probably not physically stop him,
because he had overpowered me many, many times before,
and he was stronger than most men.
So I did the only thing that I could think of at the time, I started praying out loud to God:
“God! Kill my dad! God! Kill my dad!...” over and over and over again.
After what seemed like forever, but might have just been 1-2 minutes,
he finally let go of her, and left the room & left the house.
After that incident, my (usually submissive) mother took legal action,
filed for divorce (more for our sake than hers)
and my father rented an apartment across town by one of his brothers.
I don’t know the exact timing of when I prayed that prayer,
but about 3-5 months later, in November of 1969,
he dropped dead from a massive heart attack, right before Thanksgiving.
He was 39 years old, & there was no warning.
I thought that all of my major problems were over.
And just for the record, no one will ever convince me that I (or my sisters or mother) did anything whatsoever to provoke my father’s abuse.
For example, one very nice sunny day my sisters & I were at home watching cartoons after school,
and my father came home from work. All had been peaceful, pleasant, fun, until then.
My father sat in his favorite recliner chair, kicked it back & held up the newspaper.
When my mother very lovingly & sweetly came to him to ask him what he would like for dinner,
he suddenly went ballistic scaring everyone else.
He said, ‘#$%#$!! What are you doing wearing that dress??!! You know I hate that!...’ and he jerked the chair upright,
threw the paper down, and left the house for a long time. (There was nothing immodest or gaudy about the dress at all).
That kind of scenario was repeated quite often.
Sometimes he’d be gone for more than one day.
Addicts need scapegoats and become experts at blame-shifting!
I feel like I have an unofficial Ph.D. on the subject of the sin nature, the new nature, addictions & freedom!
But I can’t remember ever seeing Bill present material that shows that he accurately sees these things.
A few years after my earthly father died, I was reading in my Bible and came to Proverbs 29:1:
“A man who hardens his neck after much reproof
Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.”
I knew instantly that God was talking to me about my father.
Proverbs 28:14 is similar in its warning:
“How blessed is the man who fears always,
But he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity.”
I will elaborate a bit in later postings.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! That initial rush can hit quite hard when you first discover the site and start reading and taking it all in. Best wishes to you in your journey and welcome to RG!
Thanks Matthew! Your words of welcome went straight into my heart and have helped me to feel like I have just connected with some very loving family members!
FM - I had the very same father - although he never laid a hand on me because I was his special one. A sibling of mine cannot say the same... I absolutely agree with you that not a person on this earth can tell me that his outbursts were provoked. The simplest thing such as " make me an egg!" toward my Mom with a HUGE slap or someone looking at him wrong could prove disastrous - even deadly. Mom finally quietly disabled the gun one day (I am told) so that when he would take it and line us up, again, there was no danger in it going off.
I have shared this to say - you are correct that these were unprovoked outbursts. Thousands upon thousands would agree with you. No blame for the wife and littles. None whatsoever.
I have taken this long to read your testimony but now am very glad I have. Welcome.
Part 2
3 years later, when I was 15 & in 10th grade, God used 2 gals at my public High School,
to help me understand the difference between having Christ in my head,
versus also in my heart, and so I was “officially” born again at that time (About January, 1973).
About a month later we (my mother never remarried & so I mean her & my 2 sisters & myself)
we learned that we would be moving to Seattle. We had never moved so I was in some shock,
but God used it in some wonderful ways.
Shortly after we moved (summer of 1973) I met an older Christian brother at my restaurant job,
and he invited me to my first IBYC seminar. Those were the days when Bill would come twice a year to Seattle,
and fill up the Seattle Coliseum plus there would be overflow seating using video cameras in the Seattle Opera House.
God did use Bill to give me 2 of the most important foundational blessings that I ever had, as a less-than-one-year-old Christian.
One was my life verse, because after 6 days of the first seminar & feeling overwhelmed by it,
I went to my Bible to read & asked God, ‘Where do I begin?’, and I ‘just happened’ to open up exactly to Matthew 6:33,
and when I looked down right at that verse, it took my breath away, and I knew God was talking to me!
That was a very precious God-moment that I will probably never forget.
The second thing that I believe I will always be grateful to God for, that Bill gave me,
was a noble-minded inspiration that if a lawyer can study for some 6 or so years to become a lawyer,
and if a doctor can study for 8-12 years to be a doctor,
why can’t a believer study the Bible for years & find great insight & rich understanding of who God is,
and how His kingdom works! Such a thing had never even entered my mind before that!
And most of the principles that BG was teaching really resonated with me,
but not all of them.
I love that more than one other person in these RG threads has posted 1 Tim 5:24:
“The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after.” NASB
Jesus also said that everything hidden will be revealed (Matt 10:26; Mark 4:22; Luke 12:2). And we are seeing that come true before our eyes.
Part 3
One reason I have shared this much detail of my own story so far,
is that I want to help other readers understand that I have a genuine understanding of what it can be like to be abused,
what it is like to become totally healed from it (it usually takes years!),
and what it is like for me to separate some wheat from chaff in this kind of situation.
I would like to mention what I call (at least for now), the principle of resonance.
Along with that, several other general principles that I have found to be true and applicable in this overall situation.
Someone might be in the church sanctuary playing a guitar, and they might play the note we call, “middle C”.
If there is a (old-fashioned) piano nearby the middle C string in the piano will begin to vibrate, or RESONATE with that plucked guitar string, because they are tuned to the same frequency.
In fact, the piano strings tuned to multiples of that same frequency will also vibrate to some degree.
In the same way, some people bring a teaching that seems to resonate with us, maybe even in a deep way,
but we don’t necessarily realize it right away, but that teaching might not resonate with Scripture like we might think,
but because it resonates with something inside of us (it can be very hard to distinguish soul from spirit),
we might think it is of God.
To make a potentially very long explanation a bit shorter,
here are some things I have learned:
Most (Christian) people who are shame-based in their thinking (& most of those who are don’t realize it),
they will be drawn to & more easily receive performance based motivations to please God,
punishments for displeasing Him, and will tend to over-value principles of authority.
I was shame-based for many years, and it was very easy to believe & receive teachings
(That ARE true, but oftentimes presented very out-of-balance),
for example, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
that there is none righteous not one, etc.
The first things that I had trouble with in BG’s material,
was how he had so many unusual definitions for words that would not be found that way in a dictionary.
I could not remain intellectually honest and commit to most of his special word definitions.
So I did not choose to override my own personality on that matter, but I did stay open to growth in my understanding of it all.
Another thing was that I could not swallow was his chain of command to the degree that he taught it.
I would guess that I believed about 90-95% of it at the time,
but I had a believing friend in the college group at my church, who’s unsaved dad insisted that he sleep around with many girls before getting married.
I knew others with unusual situations, and of course with my own situation, and I could not fully endorse what BG was teaching.
There was always a sense that there is some piece or two missing from the presentation, but in those earlier years as a believer I couldn’t figure it out.
There was always this flood of information, but something in my spirit was restless & wanting resolution.
However, it is usually my nature to want to believe the best about people, and to look for the good, and in love, to overlook the negative things.
I would guess that from 1973 to 1985 I might have attended the Basic seminar (in more than once city), maybe 8x, skipping it some years, but going twice in other years.
Maybe I attended the Advanced Seminar 3-4x. But I often recruited friends to go, endorsing it to many others along the way. I was never part of ATI.
But then more insight came because of my friendship with an ATI family from our church.
Part 4
In 1985 at the age of 27, I ended up marrying a woman who would become the mother of my two children.
But 3 months into the marriage, I initiated a brief separation because she became violent & I went to a pastor for counsel.
After a few days, it seemed to be dealt with, and so we lived together again.
But then 11 months into the marriage, she became extremely violent, on more than one occasion,
and she would not respond to boundary-setting, persuasion, intercessory prayer, unconditional love, or numerous other methods,
so I initiated our second separation that ended up lasting 18 months. I was actively submitted to one of the assistant pastors during this time,
and I was staying with 2 righteous brothers from our church.
Back when I got married, I began to attend 12-step groups that were Christ-centered, and in case a reader might want to label or consider me a heretic,
please bear with me as I explain how I began to heal.
By 1985 I had been born again for 12 years, and had read my Bible perhaps 12x cover to cover (some years not all the way, but some years more than once).
One of the elders at my church had given me a Read-Through-The-Bible (RTTB) in a Year brochure,
that showed how to read it in chronological order, so I began to read it that way & loved it!
I even began intensifying my RTTB reading sessions so that a couple times I was reading the Bible cover-to-cover 3-4x in a year.
Eventually by that time I got to the place where you could start quoting a Bible verse (especially if it was from the NASB),
and I could often finish it & tell you the address. (I’m rusty now).
I had become used to having quiet times with God that often lasted 3-5 hours or more,
and I had been listening to great radio preachers, IBYC principles, and was very active in a church of about 1200 families.
I had a college roommate who taught me how to systematically memorize Scripture, based on the Navigators techniques,
and I had memorized approximately 1200 verses of Scripture by that time. Some whole chapters, & nearly all of James.
I had taught Sunday school, been a discussion leader in more than one Bible study,
had been on 2 short-term missions events, and had preached two or three times.
I had spent 13 months helping 2 missionaries minister to immigrant believers in South Seattle on Sunday afternoons.
I loved all sorts of worship songs, singing them from my heart, (even as a pre-kindergartner in the Lutheran Church)
and had memorized many verses of several old hymns.
I considered myself, “on fire for God” for most of my Christian life to that point.
Not just on fire for God, but deeply in love with God.
Yet, to my amazement, I had never seen anything like a Christ-centered 12-step program before.
I went because before we got married, my soon-to-be spouse said she saw alcoholic behavior in me.
She was a sober herself from an alcohol & drug addiction, & at her suggestion I thought I would visit 2-3x just to see if it seemed helpful.
I did not and do not drink or smoke or do pornography (but I did look at porn from about 12-14 after discovering the 2 drawers full that my father had left behind)
or have any known addictions but I attended meetings for ACOA’s, (Adult Children of Alcoholics).
(At the time, I didn’t consider a certain sexual habit an addiction, just a bad habit that I didn’t have victory over yet,
and I didn’t yet realize that I had workaholism addiction issues operating in my life).
In those days, the ACOA meetings were co-ed, and at my first meeting, I heard people go around the room & say:
“Hi! I’m Bob, and I’m an Adult Child of An Alcoholic.” “Hi, I’m Sarah, and I’m an Adult Child of an Alcoholic...” and I was in shock.
Even though I was also an ACOA, I could barely bring myself to say it out loud.
But then it got very honest and soul-searching.
At the start of every meeting we’d read the 13 characteristics of an ACOA, and I had 12 of them!
And people (almost all were believers) were freely confessing what they were guilty of!
I had gone into my very first meeting thinking I had most of my life together and yet had a few loose ends,
to walking out about 90 minutes later realizing that I actually had very little of my life together & MANY loose ends.
I had never learned to freely confess weaknesses, or sins, to other people, like I did in those groups.
Eventually I became a leader and also went to meetings for CoDependents (at the same church).
Then during my 4th & final separation from my wife (she had become dangerously violent, even after we had 2 children),
I became involved with a woman on my night job & it eventually became sexual.
Even though we knew it was wrong, & stopped for a few short periods, I couldn’t fully stop for a year and a half.
When I finally did, it was only a partial repentance, where I told God I would stop being sexual with woman #2 until my divorce was final,
and after that I’d marry the other woman. About 2 weeks after that, I met a third woman, and became sexual with her.
I never ever thought I could fall that badly, but I most certainly did.
Then I really began to get to the bottom of it all.
I began going to the meetings (at the same church, same ministry) for people with Sex & Love addiction issues.
This is what I had to go through to have the beams taken out of my own eyes, so that I could see more clearly when there is a speck in a brother’s or sister’s eye.
I became truly repentant & totally free. Those sins were in 1991 & 1992.
By July of 1992 when the divorce was almost final,
I went to my wife & asked her if she would prefer to change it to a legal separation.
She was quite surprised, and said she admired the courage that it must have taken me to say that,
but that she wouldn’t take me back if I was the last man in the whole world.
So to my absolute amazement, I had married someone almost exactly like my earthly father.
I had also ruined my reputation, because I had hoped to be an elder or a pastor in a church one day.
But I am so totally grateful for the TRUE GRACE of God, and the deep, deep love of Jesus!
There is so much I could say, but before going to part 5, I want to talk briefly about this ATI family that were friends with us.
The husband & I were good brothers in the Lord, and he was so much more stable than I was financially & in his marriage.
He was like a big brother to me & their family blessed us in many ways (before & after the divorce).
But one day after I had confided in him yet again about my struggles in the marriage & asked for his prayers,
while we were riding in his car, just the two of us, he made the comment,
‘You made her [that way], you know...’ (That is close to an exact quote).
I knew several things instantly from that comment.
Number 1, that he really had not been hearing me for all the previous times that we talked & prayed together.
My ex had been very, very deeply angry at men for many years before she met or married me,
(Or had divorced her first husband after 3 months of marriage),
because she had become very angry at her earthly father in her childhood,
and I had explained all of this more than once to my “friend”,
but like one of Job’s friends, he was judging the situation wrongly & shaming me, blaming the target of the abuse for creating the problem.
Fortunately for me, that was so far off the mark, that I did not believe it for one minute,
but I did grieve at the now-exposed spiritual & emotional distance between the brother I had considered one of my closest male friends.
Of course I instantly recognized the Bill-speak, but I suddenly knew I had found one of the elusive missing pieces,
concerning what didn’t seem quite right about the seminar presentations.
Part 5
Please permit me to share some random points that I believe will help all concerned parties to enter more deeply into truth, light, recovery, healing & reconciliation.
Some of the things that I have learned include:
When people are repeatedly abused, they usually become empowered, or disempow+-ered. (However, it can even happen after only one episode of abuse).
People who are EM-powered, usually grow up to become abusers themselves, not necessarily in the same ways, but usually so.
They may also become enablers, who do not directly abuse, but who actually support, perpetuate or even reproduce many characteristics of the abuse process,
which sets up an atmosphere for it to flourish.
People who are DIS-empowered usually have some of their natural boundaries & defense mechanisms broken down in a very long-term, sometimes permanent way,
so that they are much more easily made targets by other abusive people later on (or by repeat abuses from the original abuser).
In my case, I was disempowered, and became both a target of abusers, and one who tended to want to rescue others, like my mother.
Although I was also targeted by other sexual abusers, one female (when I was about 13), and at least 2 males (when I was about 13 & 17), God totally shielded me & they never touched me.
I became much more like my mother, prone to rescuing, perfectionistic behavior (It took me years to realize that my people-pleasing behaviors were in large part so that I might earn the approval of and please
my long-dead earthly father & not incur his condemnation, wrath, abuse or shame),
but praise God, God kept His awesome promise in Ps 68:5:
“A father of the fatherless and a judge for the widows, Is God in His holy habitation.”
The light bulb moment when my ATI “friend” “counseled” me, was this:
The Bible says, in Proverbs 13:10:
“Through presumption comes nothing but strife, but with those who receive counsel is wisdom”.
and in Proverbs 18:13:
“He who gives an answer before he hears, it is folly and shame to him”.
Bill’s teaching often EMPOWERS people to be TOO PRESUMPTUOUS,
to draw conclusions too quickly, and then in their desire to “share”, or “help”,
These empowered, usually good-intentioned people, will become JUDGMENTAL, dangerous at times, wounding already wounded people, “in Jesus’ Name”.
But even then, some 20+ years ago, I did not see how as one woman’s RG post puts it,
“Multiply this by thousands”. I was in partial denial (called minimization) & thought in terms of,
‘Multiply this by maybe a few dozen’. And I was of course too busy trying to work through my own stuff,
to fully process what BG’s issues were.
I have read almost every posting on the RG website to date.
It is actually healing for me to listen.
Without a doubt, I know it is healing for the wounded ones to tell the truth.
I believe it would help all of us if other eyewitnesses would speak up too,
not exaggerating, but not protecting the offender either.
One of the most refreshing truths in the Bible to me, came to me after I ‘hit bottom’,
after I saw how truly sinful my sin nature could be.
After David sinned with Bathsheba, and repented,
he said to God:
“Behold, Thou desirest truth in the innermost being,
and in the hidden part, Thou wilt make me know wisdom”
Psalm 51:6
That verse gives me such peace and COMFORT! Strong encouragement!
(And after I dealt with lust-related sin issues, I came to see that I had some pride-related sin issues
that were even worse. I later even discovered that I was deceived in a certain matter, & can admit that too).
Please allow me to put it this way:
I believe we have 2 types of “truth”, which we might call higher-level, and lower-level.
Usually I say, “Capital-T Truth” and “lower-case t truth”.
Capital-T Truth includes things like, “Jesus in Lord”, and, “The Bible is the Word of God”,
and, “Jesus doesn’t have to come back again to die for the sins I committed after I got saved!”
Lower-t truth includes things like, ‘I’m hungry / angry / lonely / tired / sleepy / joyful / etc right now’,
or, ‘In my past I became addicted to .....’, or ‘I lost my temper this morning’, or, ‘I like hiking / pizza / cycling / etc.’
God said our hearts are more deceitful than all else (Jer 17:9).
Why is that? More deceitful than Satan?
Because Satan always lies, but our heart can confuse truth with lies.
I am convinced that MILLIONS of ‘godly’ believers have had issues much like my own,
but they have fooled themselves in part by performance-based thinking,
which creates all sorts of fig-leaf coverings, like Adam & Eve made,
but God patiently waits to cut through that and remove those deceptive layers,
so that we REALLY GET IT.
That we are saved BY GRACE, through FAITH, and THAT NOT OF OURSELVES!
When we learn that, the SONGS start flowing in our hearts again,
and we can say, “Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take Him at His Word,
Just to rest upon His promise, just to know, Thus saith The Lord”,
and it can really & truly get sweeter and sweeter as the days go by!
I was so very sincerely seeking God, and seeking to be a faithful man of God,
but all of the memorized verses, prayers, and long list of accomplishments for God,
did not change my sin nature one bit. I had to make peace with the truth.
Even trying to be very, very good like that comes from our fallen nature.
When we make peace with the truth, the TRUTH and the truth,
we can rest. We can cease striving.
We don’t need to hide from the truth whatever it is.
No fig leaf works, no workaholism, no busy good works for God.
God was waiting for me to quit trying to be so very, very good,
so that I could truly begin to rely on His Spirit, His strength, and His righteousness.
I hope this is making sense, but many of the readers have probably heard what George Muller used to say,
‘that it is not enough to do God’s will, but God’s will must be done God’s way (and in God’s time)...’
“Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD”. (From Zech 4:6).
My working definition of “Codependency” for the past few years has been:
“Trying to impersonate the work of the Holy Spirit in relationships, by operating in the energy of the flesh.”
Some people don’t like ‘psycho-babble’ but I can speak it some. Some think Gothard-speak is like the language of Mordor, but I can speak it some.
I can speak just Bible to those who only want Bible.
I still love God and His Word, more than ever, actually. He & His word are infallible, wonderful, life-giving and satisfying. Healing to the soul.
There is still a little more that I would like to say to my brothers and sisters.
Part 7
One certain male individual in these postings has obviously not been listening to the truth, or to the patient answers given multiple times to the issues and questions that he “raised”.
The Bible says that,
“A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind”. (Prov 18:2).
and,
“A scoffer seeks wisdom, and finds none, but knowledge is easy to him who has understanding”. (Prov 14:6).
There may be more who act just like that guy, or worse, but their folly doesn’t change the truth.
I always wish that everyone would recognize truth when it is spoken and agree, but not all will.
It seems to me that there is about to be another HUGE wave of interest in this whole matter,
and there will be some other people who (like the certain male referenced above) will also want to talk more than listen,
and scoff more than believe. We can pray for them, but I say, be assured, that God is not finished with the exposure and the healing for this situation!
Many years ago, I heard a wise preacher ask from the pulpit:
“Do you hold The Truth, or does The Truth hold you?”
Wow. I was a young believer, but I got it, that The Truth holds me.
People who are trying to rescue, or who are trying to perpetuate a narrative,
must spend a lot of energy trying to maintain the right “spin” on things.
They think that without them, the truth just might not be told.
Although people on both sides (or all sides, if you see more than 2 sides) of this situation might say that,
I think it becomes obvious that although everyone directly relevant in such a dispute should be allowed to have their say,
when someone tries to disqualify every single eyewitness,
especially using people who were not there,
it becomes ever clearer with the passage of time that the second group has another agenda.
When there are this many eye-witnesses in group #1, any person in group #2 who wants to label all of the eyewitnesses as having impure motives,
they are doing the projecting that Jesus talked about in Matthew 7:1-5.
They are projecting their own issues onto the first group. (Not unlike the way that the Russians & Chinese often did to the U.S. during the Cold War).
People in denial need to force the data to fit “somewhere else”. Freestanding truth is a threat to their narrative.
If we just step back and let Truth speak for itself, the picture gets clearer much faster.
Some who have launched another website want to testify about what they have NOT seen,
in an attempt to counter the testimony of people who testified about what they HAVE seen.
A certain phrase has been coming to my mind from Hosea 7:12:
“...I will chastise them in accordance with the proclamation to their assembly...”
I actually believe that we are going to see that principle applied in this situation and soon on a much bigger scale.
This is TOO BIG, it affects TOO MANY trusting people, too many churches, in too many countries, over too many years,
for God to leave this on any back burner.
Bill has not really submitted his will to authority fully, but he certainly has (outwardly) taught us to.
He clearly deceived and sabotaged many of his accountability people.
He clearly lied more than once to more than one person.
He most certainly is and has been a hypocrite over a several-decade period.
He most certainly defrauded everyone in the ministry (by more than one definition of that word).
He most certainly is not taking full ownership of his behaviors (yet),
and he most certainly has been spending a lot of energy to prop up his ‘good side’.
He has been manipulating the perceptions of many people at HQ, in seminars, churches, nations.
This is evil and deceiving. Bill has sown these seeds into millions of others.
God will most assuredly bring it all out to the light.
God wants Bill broken and righteousness and justice are the foundation of God’s throne.
If Bill will not confess and forsake all of his sin, God will expose it Himself.
I believe that we should pray for our own hearts first, and for all offenders & enablers in a loving way,
letting God operate freely in this situation unhindered by our own flesh, seeking justice humbly.
It is so very sad.
Yet I still believe what God says, that wherever sin abounds, God’s TRUE GRACE abounds even more than that!
Thank you for allowing me to express myself, especially in such a lengthy way.
May all who read this be encouraged to believe in God’s great goodness & faithfulness through it all.
Thanks, F M, for taking the time to pen your thoughts and the bravery to post. I read every bit of it and I wanted to let you know I really appreciate it.
Thank you Brumby!
Wow! Thank you for sharing. You have a treasure trove of insight and understanding!
I would like to reply more, but this first struck me, when you said, "So to my absolute amazement, I had married someone almost exactly like my earthly father."
I have heard a Christian who is also a neuropsychologist of good repute in our community say that this often happens from people who have great conflicts in their past - that they seek out, consciously or sub-consciously, to marry someone like their parent. I can't remember his reasons why, but I clearly remembered him stating that.
Again, thanks for sharing in so much detail about your life and what you have learned. I am going to re read your comments, because they are helpful to me in reflecting on my walk.
Thank you Lynn for your kind words.
One of the biggest revelations I had in recovery was that in the place that the Bible calls, "the hidden part" (our subconscious mind), we are seeking to resolve and finish our unfinished business.
Although I knew and had interacted with some very sweet and godly women before I got married, 'for some reason' I felt a very irrational attraction to an abusive personality because
A) deep down inside something about that kind of personality seemed very familiar to me, (it "resonated" with things deep inside of me that I was unaware of)
B) it reminded (again subconsciouly) me of a soul-place where I had spent years desperately seeking not only to receive love AND approval but also to give love
C) because of this and more, I was still emotionally bonded with the long-dead abuser,
D) I still craved approval and love from someone with 'that kind of energy / personality / relationship dynamic'
E) I had come to believe that the love that I needed and longed for could be attained through rescuing and people -pleasing behaviors
F) essentially I thought that my searching, wounded heart had found what it had always been longing for!
I had unknowingly set myself up for what happened in part because I used my 'safer place' conscious mind to overrule or ignore or downplay some of the cries and pains of my still-wounded heart. I would love to spare others the many years of time that it took me to understand that!
To add a little bit more,
Deep down that type of personality reminded me of "home",
And since (I believe that ) we were designed by God to bond with our "home" growing up,
It seemed (to my wounded heart, seduced mind, and damaged conscience ) like "I belonged" there in that spiritual and emotional "place".
Very much like in the sad stories you hear about where an abused woman is finally rescued from some extremely abusive husband and is even put in a witness protection type of safe place and yet will soon go back to the abuser, often ending up dead.
I have learned that:
We become led by what we submit to.
We become like what we love.
We tend to reproduce after our own kind.
"One certain male individual in these postings has obviously not been listening to the truth, or to the patient answers given multiple times to the issues and questions that he “raised”."
I don't know to whom you are referring, but can make a good guess. There are some who have started a new website answering this one - discoveringgrace.com
There was a poster in here who is banned for the time being, who has a lot invested in Bill Gothard personally, not only for the teaching, but I believe also as a father figure, having lost his father when he was young. He is a principal in the new website.
Upon reflection of your story, I appreciate that you put in how the Lord used the IBLP in your life in positive ways. And I appreciate your honesty in sharing your journey, including failings. In the end, it will all be about His faithfulness to us, His sheep.
FM,
I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story and appreciate that you are so thorough. Welcome to RG!
Indeed, may we all be encouraged to believe in God's great goodness & faithfulness through it all!
Thank you Kevin for every word! I apologize because I accidentally may have pasted a duplicate message to you just before this one but I hope that the moderators delete it. You and the other kind brothers and sisters who have replied so far have brought love and comfort to my heart after taking such a great risk of exposure.
FM,
As I read your story this morning it was heart breaking what you had to endure from the dad whose responsibility was to protect and love you. But through all of your experiences God has given you a life message to share with those hurting around you. Years ago when I learned to fly (back when the dinosaurs ruled the earth) my instructor told me “when you stop learning you need to stop flying.” You seemed to have applied that lesson to your life both from the failure of others and yourself. I appreciate your insightful observations as we can apply them to our lives too.
In James trials are the main topic and we know life if full of them. But what we do with them is the true measure of our lives. We are all sinners, Roman 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” sometimes I say we are all “dirtbags” but just forgiven by the matchless Grace of God. Life is a learning process just like our walk with Jesus. We learn from the good and bad, applying those lesson to our lives could include repenting and seeking forgiveness for our sin or seeking to understand and forgive the actions of others.
In 1 Peter 5:6-10, Peter gives us a promise; “Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, 7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. 8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. 10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. “
What a promise he gives,"will himself(Christ) restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." from your testimony He appears to have done just that with you! FM thank you for your heart felt story and words of encouragement.
Larne
Thank you very much Larne! You speak from the heart of a father and a brother. I have sensed something special from what you said and I have been pondering your words for several days. I'm not trying to be melodramatic at all, but very honest here.
Although I have shared my testimony before many times (but not in an online way like this ), and have been told that I have encouraged others, I was aware that something new was going on with your thoroughly affirming and kind words. I didn't quite discern what it was until this morning.
First, you affirmed my vulnerability, both as a child and in these honest postings;
And you spoke to my heart (and mind ) using words of affirmation which is one of my primary love languages;
And you spoke God’s precious Word over me, which I love, but which is also Life-giving (THANK YOU!);
And I believe that you have spoken a more thorough WRITTEN blessing over me than anyone else ever has concerning this subject, (& I greatly appreciate written words of blessing or encouragement);
But what dawned on me next was that you have spoken a father's kind of blessing over me, about my abusive earthly father. And, in case it isn't obvious, you are doing somethings that he never did! You are acting like your heavenly Father! Thank you!
I am sure that you are quite guilty of being that kind and affirming with other people too, in part because I have seen it in some of your other postings. Thank you Larne for working through your own wounds over time!
I would like to testify to whoever reads this, that I have seen from personal experience that talking honestly on this RG website can result in greater healing and joy, and also, that you can get so far down the road of healing (if you face all of it with God and safe brethren), that the bitterness of past abuse is 100% gone! And JOY and FREEDOM take their place!
It is not because of my righteousness that Gothardism needs to be condemned,but because of my sin.
Basic Principles
What is a principle? IT IS NOT A LAW, NOR A COMMAND.
It is a guideline of spiritual wisdom in which we will find the precise understanding and practical guidance in God’s Word through the Holy Spirit.
The circumstances of each individual are different. But a principle is like a road with bumper guards on both sides. There is space. Yet Jesus remains the focus: never ourselves.
The eight principles in this seminar stem from God and His Word. He has expressed his perspectives and his will so that, attentive to the Spirit of God, we would discern how to correctly orientate our life, discern the origin of our problems, of our hurts, and learn to resolve them His way.
The responsibility to do this is PERSONAL. Hence, if I judge my neighbor’s strengths or failures I usurp God’s place and miss on the role He has for me in this world. I even open myself to the failures I condemn.
The principles assist us in our everyday decisions and relationships, and help us evaluate our position, our motives, and directions. It is a lifetime process of God’s grace.
God’s goal is to make of us adults in Christ, to reproduce the character of Christ in us so that others may reproduce it too.
Ok, I'll play along -- the "principles" that Gothard teaches are FALSE principles. And he is a false teacher. The eight "principles" do NOT stem from God's Word, but are of "another gospel," and are destructive in practice. Your comment, "if I judge my neighbor’s strengths or failures I usurp God’s place and miss on the role He has for me in this world. I even open myself to the failures I condemn," is hilarious because the entire Gothard system is one of judging others -- and ourselves -- not according to Christ, but according to the very principles you promote. The fact that you think following PRINCIPLES will reproduce the character of Christ puts you right among the Galatians. Wake up.
Mark,
Thank you for sharing your opinions on the Basic Principles. However, I could not disagree more with you.
You said:
"The eight principles in this seminar stem from God and His Word"
I think it would be more accurate to say that they stem from Bill Gothard. For example, the Umbrella of Protection, taught under Principle # 2, Authority, is found nowhere in the Bible. It is the invention of a man- Bill Gothard. And let's not forget who that man is- a person who has been accused by dozens of girls and women of sexual abuse.
With this teaching he creates a dangerous structure in which you and the others are not to question those in authority, as God has placed them there over you. What's worse, his system discourages people from communicating directly to God, teaching that God will speak to those in authority over you instead and that you are to obey them, as if their instructions come from God. Of course, he was at the top of the organization, and so, it was as if anyone who challenged the will of Bill Gothard was challenging God himself. This structure allowed for abuses of many types to go unchallenged for decades.
As is true with all false teachings, this teaching has done severe harm to thousands.
You sound like you are one of the ones who is in deep. I hope that you take the time to read many of the articles on this site. Something must have brought you here.
i heard the cases against BG got thrown out of court and RG has spent clse to half a million dollars. Are this rumors true? I heard them from what i would consider a reliable source. oh, and Allen, i would think the principle of design is pretty Biblical ....
grateful,Two things...The first is a sense of defiance and an undertone perhaps of subtle malice...All towards Bill Gothard's accusers.All the testimonies and accusations,perhaps the justification of this website's intended purpose:to bring to light from before the scandal of 1980,to the testimony of girls and very young women today to something Bill Gothard just could not possibly do.Alas the powerful "weight" of unfaifrness lifted off?[?].I assure you grateful,that from the testimony of Tony Guhr's investigation at the time of the scandal,to Larne Gabrial,Heather's story,Ruth's story,lies,coverups,slander towards Tony,as well as others.Charlotte's story includes disturbing accounts of condescending manipulation.In your eyes grateful,should we too be gratified recipients?This is just from brutalized byproducts of his actions.This does not include his heretical teachings.Do you think his teachings have anything to do with this?How calloused.You've gone into the camp of the hurting,wounding further,and sought to justify the unjustifiable.You have sought to call evil good for a reward that cannot possibly come from God no matter how much energy is spent holding up this man's unrighteousness.
arne Gabrial
David, you lost me. sorry i couldn't follow your comment. i'm not really a BG cheerleader or one who necessarily champions him. Many, if not most, that i have encountered that are in his camp are some of the sweetest, God-loving, giving people i've ever met (I married one, PTL). So in that regard i feel i do owe him a bit of gratitude; hence the name grateful :)
grateful,
I doubt your rumor has any merit for the following reasons:
1) court rulings are available to the public. There is nothing about this news online. If this had any truth to it, I'm sure Alfred would be screaming it from the mountain tops and he has not said a word.
2)You heard that Recovering Grace spent half a million on the case? On what? Attorneys take these cases on contingency. And where would RG get half a million to spend? I don't believe I have every seen them do anything that would create any type of income on the site. As message boards go, it is about as non-commercial as they come. But, I'm sure that you guys pass around all kinds of rumors about who RG is and the resources that they spend to take down Bill Gothard.
If what you say is true, I guess we will hear soon enough.
grateful, regarding RG's involvement, your source is unreliable. Whether this is gossip or intentional spreading of misinformation, I do not know.
I also do not know why someone would say the case was "thrown out" even if it does end. The judge thought there was reason enough to go to the discovery phase. Along the way there are any number of reasons that one party or another, or all, might want to go a different direction. Happens in cases all the time, especially as cases wear on. If the judge finds a technical reason that the case shouldn't proceed, he will probably publicly state that and also state what the cure would have been, or could be. Actually, the Wood vs. IBLP case in 1981 is a good example. After a couple of years, the judge dismissed the case because he ruled that Wood wasn't representative of the class, but also ruled that class members other than Wood could bring similar claims. I'm not a lawyer, so maybe Wood was "thrown out," but the judge also threw out an invitation to others willing to undergo the rigors of the legal system. My take is that he made note of some of the wrongs committed by IBLP that turned up in the discovery phase. That case was related to employment/financial matters (and related to the 1980 scandal).
Spiritual Sounding Board has just posted a statement from all the plaintiffs in the case that they have voluntarily dismissed the case and their reasons why. There is also a statement from one of the Jane Doe's in the case using her real name. Grateful, whoever you got your information from that the judge threw the case out was not correct. I would suggest next time to not spread rumors and false info around, it is a sin.
rob war. how is asking a question on a website (of whom many would/could verify the veracity of what i heard) spreading rumors?
You were making a statement in the guise of a question. You "heard" or were told something which was that the case was "thrown out" by the judge. The facts are that the plaintiffs withdrew the case without prejudice. That is different than the judge "throwing out" the case. It looks like you wanted to share this info on but did so as a "question", which also included so called millions spent according to you or your sources. The later sounds like more like gossip and whatever anyone spent on lawyers in the case is none of our business.
What is the significance of the different e between the case being thrown out and the plaintiffs would drawing the charge? Why would the plaintiff withdraw the charge? I'm asking this in a legitimate since,
Grateful, the significance is that the plaintiffs did not "lose" their case, but dropped it. (Dismissed without prejudice). No prejudice means the matter has no legal conclusions, either way. It also reflects that the other party did not demand or have a legitimate right to a judgment in their favor either. It ends as it started with no resolution of who was right or wrong, who was telling the truth or not. (Often, plaintiffs give up when it becomes too time consuming and expensive, "winning" no longer seems worth it.)
When someone says a case was "thrown out" they ordinarily mean that the court rejected the case as invalid. Such a judgment is "with prejudice" because the case has been legally declared to be invalid or unsubstantiated.
Grateful, if you have not yet read it, here is the statement of plaintiffs giving their reasons for dropping the suit:
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2018/02/26/breaking-lawsuit-against-bill-gothard-and-the-institute-in-basic-life-principles-dismissed/
Those of us commenting here generally know no more first hand than you know, although some of us are able to do our own research rather than depend on others to satisfy our curiosity.
I can't help but to point out the analogy with this rumor and what Bill Gothard did to scripture.
Take scripture, twist it a little, end up with a completely different meaning than the actual scripture.
Similarly, take the truth- "the plaintiffs voluntarily withdrew the case"
twist it and say: "The case was thrown out of court"
Not the same thing. Beware of rumors and I think that those sources of yours are not as "reliable" as you think them to be.
so, the bottom line is the case is out of the court system, correct? OK, why?
Grateful,
Please examine Bill's teachings on design as posted on his website. Compare scripture with scripture. Pretty Biblical??? No. Twisted teaching? Yes
All I know is his teachings on the 10 unchangeables totally reformatted my outlook and set me on the road to freedom (ironically) from a life of low self esteem and unbeknownst deception. For that I am very, um .... grateful.
I grew up in ATI. And used Wisdom Booklets and other IBLP materials for my "education." At the time I had no way of disagreeing with the content, I had no exposure to other opinions. I now see it's views on women as subordinates is completely wrong and it's ideas about things like rock music being "sin" were ridiculous. The real danger in it though was that it was presented as if these booklets could substitute for a real education. My mother taught me how to read and write well outside of the booklets, but I never got a fundamental math education. When I got to go to "real high school" at 16 I had to play years of catch up and take remedial math. I also had to take remedial math in college.
I'm now in law school and I'm so happy that I was able to make it out, but I had to make up for years of lost education because of using the ATI curriculum. I know a lot of people that don't have a basic education because of the ATI "education."
http://www.whas11.com/video/news/full-interview-
rachel-denhollander-talks-to-whas11’s-chris-williams-
about-assault-victim-advocacy/417-8016444
This link speaks to the heinous problem of circling the wagons around predators in institutions. This fails all the previous victims made by these same predators. Until someone on the inside notices the pervert’s having already hijacked these same institutions in his ongoing quest to victimize more and further undermine who all reported him in the first place. *”I still get away with it!”*
In Gothard’s rare case, the predator & the system were actually one and the same.
God bless these dear ladies for trying to expose an albatross wrapped up in an enigma. Not only this, but it’s usually whichever side has the most money that can hold on the longest through a trial; and these poor gals’ attorney would have been integrous enough (we hope!!) to advise them of this fact. In this world, it’s usually money that has to be deferred-to.
P.S.:
IMHO, Gothard epitomizes in the Evangelical church everything that John Geoghan & his whole enabling system did to Catholic parishioners. Except that Gothard was far less mitigated by oversight even than Geoghan was!! The free-for-all he had over his puppet board of directors meant he could do whatever he wanted; and that he did. In situations that actually are mitigated, the secrecy & minimization by which superiors often enable serial sexual assault means that creepers get their jollies in the places where creepiness should be condemned THE MOST. This type of free-for-all, especially at the expense of children, had got to stop!
Makes me sick.
God bless these ladies & RG for trying to make much safer ventures of childhood, church and education.
re. my above summary:
Gothard’s heresy that “a rape victim, if she does not cry out, is as guilty as her attacker” no doubt shut down rape reporting in many Gothardite circles. A person’s 1st response when attacked may or may not be self-defense (yelling, hitting, kicking, biting, kneeing, etc.) But, even when it is, being overpowered in spite of this sends the same message to the victim that a tantrumming child gets when they are restrained & spanked. “This is what I have coming to me; I will be punished until I learn to please the one paddling me; it’s what my survival depends on.” Some victims, in being overpowered, get the message even faster & therefore don’t even initially resist. Gothard obviously takes the attacker’s view of the victim: *might makes right* is the core of all his teachings. He paints a picture for all subordinates of the one subduing them as being God (& outright says so with his Umbrella doctrine). This, on top of the fact that most people getting grabbed, yelled-at, hemmed-in, or even just having their shoulder looked-over by a hovering authority are already anxious to find out: “What did I do wrong?!?” From this person who’s zeroing-in on them so as to take over their autonomy that they were operating in until that moment. Even when it’s not a superior who lays hold of your arm & looks earnestly into your eyes, let alone pouncing in you, you want to find out what they’re doing before you judge it. You say: “What are you doing?!?” And, until they answer your question, you continue to ask it before knowing how to respond. NOBODY says: “I don’t have any idea what you’re doing. Nonetheless, I know you need to stop it.” The whole basis of telling someone what NOT to do is being able to define what it is that you’re trying to make them stop doing!!!!! In the meantime, THEY know full well what they’re foisting upon you.
It against this aspect of human nature that Gothard added his Umbrella to. Along with: “To rebel is to act, say or think anything in disagreement against a figure of authority [or against anything they do]” as his illustrated principles made so clear. And his “sexual abuse recovery” curriculum. Only he can emasculate a female!!! Nothing to emasculate in the 1st place, but he still went ahead & did it.
Then, to top it off, he condemns this same female, saying that she’s her own rapist if she didn’t stand up to her attacker. Also, he picks Dinah the sister of the 12 heads of the tribes of Israel to castigate as being responsible for her own rape. And claims the same about Tamar, King David’s daughter. Making clear that those whom the Bible paints as innocent are nonetheless guilty. So, even if the Bible makes clear that a specific person is not only NOT “as guilty of her rape as her attacker”............ according to Bill Gothard, she still is every bit as guilty. So much for any among the rest of us who are not mentioned by name in the Bible! Even though the Old Testament Law says the unmarried victim bears no guilt, he insists that she does. Even though the New Testament takes into account that a Christian (or anyone else) can be the slave of another & still be Christ’s “free man” due to this bondage. Gothard claims that the subject of another’s domination is just as responsible for that domination.
This is utterly sick, since he simultaneously demands not only submission to domination in every human form, but that his adult students plea with people dominate them, both initially, & to even greater degrees. These two teachings are schizophrenic; “Take total charge over me, to prove that you have it. This way I become responsible for everything you ever do to me.” He must have had an over head projector in his head at all times, beaming the phrase: “Use & Blame! They’re all suckers; it’s my game.”
It was established that no subordinate, EVER, should EVER call a superior into account by asking "What are you doing?!?" To even ask was to signal that you were thinking ill of them (REBELLION!). Whereas it's even already on the gracious side of human nature to ask; it's giving the benefit of the doubt to the person that they be listened to in asking them to explain themself. Unfortunately, perverts take advantage of this, knowing full well that their unsuspecting prey won't be able to figure out that a crime or misdemeanor is taking place, at least not until it is underway.
The fact is this: Bill Gothard's teachings say that even this- the giving of the benefit of the doubt to a dominating person- IS REBELLION. You just have to take it without question. Let alone without going "AGAINST" them, even in thought.
I so wish there could be an indictment of IBLP for this.
Nicole:Thank you so much for these two comments and please give this one consideration.I will never stop trying with whatever means of reason, eloquence,logic to dive down into Gothard's murky world of motive;for it is at that particular point that would unmask the fullest potential of evil, all hidden away behind tidy gestures of following "principles",and obedience toward the supposed "sincerity" of the authority's concern for "those subjected to him."Now comes a half truth in his "tripartite soul teaching",one of the most insidious dehumanizing pieces of slime masked behind "just get over it".It goes something like "rape effects your body but not your spirit".Correct Bill!!!As the spirit,highest form of communication between man/God,would be "disaffected", obviously insulated from any bodily contact.The soul's consequence is to just "slough it off".Yeah.Like washing off a little dirt with a bar of soap.Leave it up to a man whose psyche,distorted from countless exhoneration,from "machinistically applied formats.Then from admirers,puppets and yes men,throw this super legalism into the intricate world of life.We are now no more than robots.And the cosequences?Women thrown into abuse,trashed,manipulated,used; and inner psychological suffering .From the man who is"above all".Calloused doesn't even come close.
You can see those teachings illustrated here: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/
Matthew,
Thank you for reminding us of that article, documenting those sick teachings. It reminds us that it is not just the things that Bill Gothard has been accused of, but that the teachings of IBLP are rotten to the core and dangerous.
Bill Gothard can claim all he wants that the girls are lying and making everything up. Those that continue to admire him will give him the benefit of the doubt.
But, the published materials are there for everyone to see with their own eyes and they are beyond sickening and not something that any reasonable person can explain away.
As Aila commented on that thread:
"How can their be any defenders of Bill Gothard, IBLP, or ATI left after reading this? It makes me physically ill"
I could not agree more.
Nicole and David. I really appreciate your passionate expressions. I do wonder, however, if it is all more typically human than egregiously evil genius. I do believe the man lied and lies to himself. All men do. I also believe, as an ATI parent, that we were misled by our own pride as much as by him. He invited us to believe lies that we wanted to believe. He did not brainwash us or do some kind of voodoo on us. We were naturally inclined to believe that our works could add to God's and "save" our children (and outselves) from apostasy. He just gave us the opportunity to practice our delusions.
I am not confident that he did the worst things alleged, but I am confident that he lies about the things he did do. Show me one homely girl that he invited to be his personal secretary. He judged outward appearances because he could. HE preyed on girls who were insecure in their fathers' homes. We allowed it all. I am sorry for that. I am thankful that Christ is bigger than all and His Grace does abound! All our discussions these past 3 or 4 years are proof of that!
Don,I've read and respected your comments down through the years,and will continue to do so.It's not always a cut and dried matter to evaluate what might be wrong,but from a sincere heart.Or should I say evil,from a wicked heart. Your point of also allocating blame towards the generation of mother's and father's egos,"spiritual pride",to appoint verbal and non-verbal recognition at the added efforts we made in hedging our children around Gothard's protective walls of ascribed holiness,is heavy with truth that must be acknowledged.But I have also believed that its time to bear down on the darkness that never went away,though feigned repentance shot out a smokescreen.Its our fault for this;costing more than what most would ever realize.The wickedness of Gothard telling a young girl sent to headquarters it was her fault for being raped at the age of 7.Knowing full well she came from a dysfunctional family.Then molesting her himself.Another girl went without food while caring for Gothard's mother.Sensing a protest,Gothard blackmailed her with the threat that he would dismiss her family's provision from being on staff; no income;nowhere to go. Do I dare believe this?What does it insinuate?In and through the potential of a vitriolic pen of an A.I.Solzhenitsyn,or the pointed finger of a John the Baptist lies a counterforce to offset what I can only describe as one of the most evil tragedies in the contemporary American protestant church.It was handled way too lightly.The Ruths and Jane Does and the Christie Anne Minors and many many more could never be exonerated unless the probe goes down for the light to shine.Deeper than what we would care to look.I also know it could be done in anger and unforgiveness but there will be a risk that not all the cancer is cut out; and if it is not,the festering may still prevail underneath the surface layer;just like it did post 1980.For this,Gothard doesn't get by.
Once you start comparing to all other tragedies in the contemporary American protestant church, there is no end to comparisons. Right on these pages I've heard as bad from the Independent Baptists reflecting on some dictatorial pastors. My point is never to dismiss B.G.'s faults, but to remind all that such faults are sadly common to mankind and if he had been perfect, many of his followers would have looked elsewhere for reinforcement of their delusions. I saw this when I finally saw the errors of Job's friends. I could not see those errors when I was ATI. And those errors were common 3000 years before Bill Gothard. B.G. is acute with us, but he is a run of the mill narcisist and petty dictator.
I clearly remember going to a Bill Gothard seminar and Bill told people to go home and read the Bible. He told us to mediate on Romans 6, 7, and 8. Bill was all about mediating on the Bible big time. The Holy Spirit touched my life from the seminar and I started reading the Bible and haven’t stopped reading it. I also remember wanting to buy a finance book at the seminar and they refused to sell it to me. They said my husband had to buy it so I went home without it. Everything that Bill said has always helped me in life and I’ve been safe. In other words it has worked for me. So that makes me wonder why it didn’t work for others? Could it be because you can’t come to God unless you’re drawn? I was even kept safe from Bill’s homeschool program. I didn’t enroll my kids in it. I wish everyone would admit it, that they liked being with Bill until it went south in their life! How about maybe blaming the parents! And what about the founder of this website for bringing a lawsuit against someone??? Is that do unto others as you would have them do unto you?
I am very glad that you were kept safe from his homeschool program. Paul speaks of people hearing the gospel from those ill-motivated. Your Bible reading was a result of BG's teaching, so that is good. However, if you ever tried to read every Bible references in his "notebook", you should see easily that his notebook is based on misrepresentation of Scripture.
I too am thankful for every memorization and Bible reading I endeavored as a result of the meetings and teachings. But I am ashamed of the legalism and "natural religion" (the ideas of Job's three friends, all of whom sound just like Mr. Gothard) that I exposed my children to in ATI and the conferences. The Bible does not justify Gothard's teachings. I am glad you love the scriptures. I hope you can reject the false teaching.
yes to what Don says here. Rejoicing that Kim was led to the Word of God and helped.
Kim, here is some info on what so many of us who were in ATI went through.
https://wordpress.com/posts/simplythinking675545448.wordpress.com
Don R.,
Thank-you for acknowledging my ferver re. justice in all this. Let me hereby explain the direction it takes:
The only parts that one of my parents put me through were:
(1) the “there’s no such thing as personal rights”- characterized by sermons teaching that “the Human Rights Convention is the antithesis to the gospel by it’s very name”, among many other applications. The gospel was defined as only having acceptance by singles via spineless puppetry by your parents, your pastor, & every other superior. My same parent may or may not have been controlling throughout my childhood & youth. The reason I don’t say, either way, is because neither of my parents ever defined the gospel as requiring me to be a spineless worm. Any groveling at the feet of everyone else was NOT something that they claimed was God’s mandate for my life. They never said that Gothard’s Umbrella is what Jesus meant by “the Cornerstone that everyone either trips over & comes into subjection-to or else instead goes on their way & is crushed by it”, then saying that examples regarding human authority supposedly proved this as the truest teaching ever. Neither of my parents ever sexually assaulted me, either, or were ever one to draw me pictures of the Umbrella, one of them with the flaming darts, to show me how it was supposedly MY fault that I was. I still have those pictures. As well as one from another one of Gothard’s disciples of his Hammer-Mallet-Chisel that was used to blame me for my parents’ duress when I turned 18 & had made necessarily secret arrangements for learning how to drive. My issue is the kow-towing to parental wishes, twisting theology in order to do it, just to maintain a business of peddling this type of service to those with immediate means to pay for this. Whereas the right thing to do would have been to teach correct theology, even though this would have meant assuring kids of their freedom, & thus having to wait years to reap the monetary dividends of doing so. Gothard’s own business model is the 1st example.
(2) the Pride, Bitterness, &, funnily enough, “Greed” was replaced with “Envy” by the 1st Gothard proselyte that I sat under. If Gothard had been more honest with himself, he would have substituted this, too. Gothard certainly had no problem angling to get material wealth for himself!!! And that is an understatement. My one parent DID subject me to endless sermons based on these three things that guilted everyone for everything- which underscored how we not only had no rights, but that we had no right to have rights!!! For, every woe was our own doing as traced to us, each & all, in these lectures.
No person’s milestones in life are summarized in an hour. Neither are the decrees of the Lord re. this same person. By his grace, a person is so much more than a diagnosis with prognosis!! These are maybe one percent of what fails to make a person who they aren’t. Whereas grace makes a person 100 percent of who they ARE. Let’s talk about THAT.
The churches I am privileged to be part of take a view of God as being big. Speaking of Jesus:
“For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, Who is the head of all rule and authority.” Colossians 2:9,10
This high view of Jesus amounts to the kind of identity with Him that affords us a high view of ourselves. We’re not inferiors to everyone else. While yes, we are to be suffering servants as He was, we are simultaneously with this seated with Him in the heavenlies. There is as much raising with Him as there is being buried with Him Col. 2:12. This personal equilibrium was never taught by IBLP. Instead, only a co-dependent equilibrium was mandated; kids play dead & their superiors rest the conquering foot on them. Another example of how it robbed people’s relationships with God in order to prop-up human hierarchy. How much more freedom the so-called superiors would have, too, if they could be freed of their slave-holdings in order to have more time between themselves and the Lord! We’ve been told by Gothard’s spokesmen that “he was never alone.” Well maybe he needed to be. Even apart from soliciting time alone with all those poor girls, which was obvious, I think what that man needed was to just be before God. Is empire won’t be surrounding him at the judgement seat, that’s for sure. Jesus has to be the head of a person in order for them to be able to stand. It doesn’t matter how many they’ve been head of.
Amen.