26 Comments

1. Recovering Grace » A Gothard generation shines light on the teachings of IBLP and ATI » Escaping the Religious Noose, Pt. 2: Grace Redefined July 23, 2011 Reply

   [...] post is continued here… The Truth about ATI [...]

2. 

   Wendy Blake July 25, 2011 Reply

   Also, along the lines of authority. Gothard taught in one of the wisdom booklets that Miriam (Moses' sister) began her corruption that ultimately led to her usurping Moses' authority (and her getting leprosy) when she led the the people in singing at the Red Sea.
   And another one that really bothered me as a teenager was that God punished King David for being dressed inappropriately when he danced before the Lord, by making Michal unable to have children. Yet, if you read the Bible it directly puts David in the good light and definitely seems that God is punishing Michal for her attitude toward David.
   Hugs!!!!

3. 

   Marlana July 25, 2011 Reply

   Wendy, that's nuts. BG is out of his mind.

4. 

   Lauren August 3, 2011 Reply

   I remember listening to him use David's dancing before God as a example of sin. Thank God I had parents who were saved in the Jesus Movement. I remember my mom being so filled with the Holy Spirit that she had to dance.

5. 

   Dianna Whitt August 6, 2011 Reply

   I am so sorry for those that are hurting for whatever reason... However, I encourage you to sit in a room of educated high school students that have been home, private and public schooled. Spend some time talking to them on an individual basis. I have spent no less than 600 hours doing so over the past four years. If you do this you will see how similar their stories are to yours, the blame may be placed on someone else, but, never the less, blaming others seems to be comforting. One mans ministry has helped so many people over come the wickedness in this world through The Word Of God! This blog is simply wrong and I encourage you as Mr. Gothard would, please spend your time helping those that need your help rather than blaming others and encouraging others to do the same! There are young people being stolen and trafficked as we speak! These young people need your help! Look forward to what the Lord has for you to do rather than spending time being discouraging, quit looking back and look forward! Over the past 30 years I have witnessed many, many wonderful courtship marriages that have happy children as a result of one mans ministry and I thank, thank God for him and his encouragement! The tools you all have gained are great, so be grateful! Rather than complaining, get to work using the skills God has given you to help those that are desperate!

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     Lewis August 6, 2011 Reply

     Dianna...I'd hope you'd consider that not everyone has had a rosy experience with ATI and IBLP, rather than dismiss the abuses suffered as personal deficiencies.

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     "Hannah" August 6, 2011 Reply

     Dianna, I can personally testify to the destructive effects of the teachings on authority in my own family. The view is extreme, and the control was so intense in our home, that I still had my every move governed by my parents at the age of 26 or 27, when I eventually broke free. All I can say is, praise God for bringing our family out of bondage and into His GRACE. My parents have recognized the problems with this kind of control, and have done an about-face.
     
     When I was trapped, controlled, having no resources to leave home, severely depressed at the oppression I was under, I NEEDED someone to save me, to throw me a lifeline so I could get OUT! Thankfully, someone did just that for me. To a young person who is trapped, this is a worthy endeavor.

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     Renee Goodpaster August 6, 2011 Reply

     Dianna -
     
     The Recovering Grace site was created for the thousands of apprenticeship students and parents who need healing after their lives were subjected to the damaging teachings of Bill Gothard and his organizations. If you have not experienced his manipulation of scripture - as well as people, his control of others, and his false justification system based on anecdotes and fables, first hand, then you are quite fortunate indeed. This site was not created for blame; far from it, we seek recovery from the gross lies we were told by IBLP. We are not high school students. We range in age from 18 through our forties and fifties. We are mature adults who seek not to lay blame, but to find grace.
     
     Why do you feel that your human judgement, "this blog is simply wrong", is correct? I see no Scriptural basis for your claims, nor are your words an encouragement. The members of this site do not seek to discourage at all. If you have taken the time to read our words, you would realize that we are encouraging each other to move forward, despite the heinous wrongdoings we have endured. Some of us were locked in a "prayer room" for days on end with minimal nourishment; others were beaten (under the guise of "spanking") so severely that it has left permanent physical effects; I personally was denied food although I have a medical condition that requires I eat every 4 - 6 hours, and told that I should pray. I choose to believe that you must not be aware of the injustices we were all subjected to, because surely a woman who read our stories would not judge our lives or intentions so harshly. After all, judge not lest you be judged.
     
     For the many, many wonderful courtship stories you cite, I can tell you many, many stories of mental, emotional, physical and sexual abuse that resulted from courtship. I can also tell you many, many stories of courtship marriages that ended in divorce and produced children who now have two homes instead of a traditional nuclear family.
     
     Why on earth would you introduce human trafficking and slavery into this topic? Do you not realize that a large portion of apprenticeship students were used at the training centers as slave labor? We were denied food if not productive enough, and beaten if not submissive enough - does that not sound like slavery to you? You are exactly right! We are attempting to save young people from the abuse that Bill Gothard, IBLP and ATI create and perpetuate.
     
     You praise Bill Gothard? You raise him up as though he is your lord, rather than Jesus Christ. Bill Gothard did not provide us with tools. Bill Gothard did not encourage the apprenticeship students. I pray that you will never know the heartbreak and sadness that Bill Gothard has introduced to so many lives. I pray that your family does not one day lie broken, surrounded by death and pain, as so many lives that Bill Gothard has touched now lay. Please, do not praise Bill Gothard. Go to your Bible and look at it for yourself. Study God's word as HIS student, rather than the student of a man. Instead of attacking those who seek Jesus Christ, and His healing balm on their souls and lives, please get to work finding out who God is outside of Bill Gothard's skewed teachings. It is my personal prayer Diane, that you can see Christ for who he is, and experience true openness and grace through His love. God bless you.

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     Christoph August 7, 2011 Reply

     Speaking of using God-given skills to help others instead of complaining, I'm grateful to those who created this website for the skills they've used to encourage others to grow beyond the legalism rampant in IBLP. The message of rediscovering God's grace is tremendously encouraging. Thanks guys.

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       donnam August 7, 2011 Reply

       Thanks for your sweet words. Please pass our address along to anyone you feel it might minister to! God bless! =)

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     RyanR August 7, 2011 Reply

     Please know that it is presumptuous of you to assume that writing for this blog is ALL that the writers do in their spare time. Perhaps some of them have put in MORE than 600 hours working with troubled youth in the past four years and yet have still made time to write articles for this blog.
     
     And though this blog may be of no help to you, there are many who have found the articles on this blog to be of tremendous help in making sense of their ATI experience and sorting out their relationship with God in light of it. I know I have.

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     "Hannah" August 7, 2011 Reply

     "I encourage you to sit in a room of educated high school students that have been home, private and public schooled. Spend some time talking to them on an individual basis. I have spent no less than 600 hours doing so over the past four years."
     
     I'm curious about specifically where you are getting these stats, and does it come from a true cross-section of the population, or from a specific subgroup, in which case the stats may be a bit misleading? 600 hours over four years breaks down to roughly 3 hrs a week. You could easily get this kind of "experience" teaching a high school Sunday school class at your church or interacting with young people at your church. This then becomes the experience of the young people in your church, not of the population as a whole. I'm just using the church scenario as an example. It seems your "credentials" need more clarification before we can even know their validity. At 150 hours per year, you are certainly not a school teacher, so we don't know exactly what validity your "credentials" are supposed to represent.
     
     The stories we have to tell are stories of abuse, emotional, psychological, verbal, spiritual, even physical and sexual. If you know of ANY young person telling stories like these, I would submit to you that you then become responsible for helping them get out of their situation. Abuse is not ok, in any way, shape, or form.

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     Christy August 7, 2011 Reply

     Dianna,
     You're missing the point with this websight. With all due respect, after reading your comment, I was struck with the thought that seems to be common with the legalistic mindset, that the ends justifies the means. I was also struck that in your comment, you do not mention God\'s grace in allowing us to prevail through life in this world, but you would rather follow the IBLP mantra that demands RESULTS. It\'s not about results Dianna, it\'s about a relationship. A relationship with a God who wants us and just us. He does not want us to following a number of lists to try to be something we can never be on our own, holy. That is why Christ came, to make us something we can never be.

6. 

   Robert August 6, 2011 Reply

   Diana, what if one of those many children you have spoken to came to you with bruises all over her body and told you, crying, that her stepfather had beaten her? Would you say, "don't blame others, stop complaining and get to work?" Yet many people in ATI have suffered similar, emotional and physical abuses due to the teachings of Mr. Gothard.
   I followed Mr. Gothard's standards for many years. I served in Russia with ATI. What finally caused me to step back and evaluate his ministry was the fact that I spent so much of my time urging him and the leadership of his training centers to follow HIS OWN standards. My pleas fell on deaf ears, and dozens of Russian orphans suffered because of the hipocracy of the ministry. So much was done for appearance sake, to please government leaders, and outward show was proven to be more important to the ministry than the lives of the children they should have been serving.
   In my above example of the child with bruises, would it not be your legal and moral responsibility to report what you had seen and heard? Please do not think we are complaining. We are warning those that we hope to prevent from becoming the next victims.

7. 

   lori August 6, 2011 Reply

   you liken kids being stolen and trafficked as you put it to our little complaints. the two are not even in the same ball park. i understand that there are those situations and im giving to a more than one misson, orphange and other relief organizations to help where i can but at the same time i cannot ignore what has happened here in the states and other countries because this one man that has no authority over him, by the way, is able to influence, sometimes to the loss of a childs creativity, self assurance, determination and love. children who grow up in the lifestyle that is talked about in this site have sometimes endured abuse both sexually, emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually. did you grow up, dianna in this type of household??? did you experience what some have called the "death of their childhoods"?? courtship and authority are good things to aspire to, but when you are told not to even look at getting married until you are 28 or older in this program, it can be ridiculous. i would ask you to read and try to understand us and please withhold your judgement until you can tell us first hand you have experienced everything we have experienced in ATI/IBLP. I dont doubt that there are positive stories of courtship and authority that you have witnessed, but the opposite is true as well. we all have experiences that grow us and damage us, but when you have statistics to back up that there are many people hurt by this program, you have to open your eyes to the possibility that there could be something wrong that neck of the woods.
   
   if you took a class in college and the teacher gave you tests and everyone failed but one person on every test and the final as well, would you think "wow, what a great teacher we have and look at all i have learned and can apply to my life or my work!" no you would say no, " what a huge waste of my time, time i cannot get back and money i cannot get back, and now its part of my overall grade and now i have to carry that along with me wherever i go." then you found out that the same teacher kept teaching the same thing with the same effect to others and still, not only did he keep his job but he still only got one to pass the test. wouldnt you want someone, anyone, everyone to know not to take the class and get the same result as you????? i understand how you feel in some ways but there are people who have been deeply hurt, that come here, just maybe to see if others understand, because believe me most dont. thank you for your time and i hope you can look at this as a process for all of us. GOD BLESS YOU!

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     Renee August 7, 2011 Reply

     Well said Lori!!!!

8. 

   Kelly August 7, 2011 Reply

   Dianna's response does not shock me in the least. It is a picture-perfect example of the cultish manipulation of every. single. person. who dared oppose Bill Gothard or any of his teachings in any way, shape, or form. If you EVER even so much as questioned anything about him, regardless of how quietly and respectfully you did so, you were immediately met with this very type of response! It was quickly asserted how foolish or ungodly you were being... how ungrateful, disrespectful, undiscerning, unloving, and lacking in any number of other basic character qualities you were. It instantly went from you asking for even the smallest clarification, to you being labeled "rebellious" and "non-submissive". This kind of manipulative "peer pressure" was the standard modis operandi of IBLP leadership... Shame you back into your status as a blind sheep! No matter what the subject or how much compelling evidence you had, they ALWAYS flipped it back around on you to be the one with the character deficiency!!! For example, in Dianna's somewhat brief post, other than a generic platitude that resonates "Sorry... for *whatever* your problem is!" she levies clear accusation, by direct reference or strong implication of such character deficiencies in the members of Recovering Grace as the following: 1) Lack of taking personal responsibility... She does this with the implied message of: Stop being such a bunch of whiny victims going through life blaming everybody else for your issues... You're acting like a bunch of immature teenagers! Of course there is the patronizing 'misery loves company' sentiment thrown in to go along with this accusation. 2) Attacking an innocent man who has "helped so many people..." 3) Just being wrong 4) Stirring up dissension by encouraging others to blame people for their issues 5) Being self-centered and not caring about other people who are being stolen and trafficked 6) Setting your hand to the plow and looking back (as opposed to forward) 7) Being ungrateful 8) Complaining 9) Being lazy and 10) Failing to help those in desperate need. Yes... this is EXACTLY the kind of response I would expect from someone in the Gothard Reich to levy against anyone who did anything other than sing the praises of the same man who propagated the heresies that have destroyed so many lives, and who continues to control and manipulate thousands of others into thinking just like this!!! It is no wonder that it has taken decades for the victims of his "ministry" to even begin to find healing and a voice.

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     "Hannah" August 7, 2011 Reply

     Yes, the method of calling a person's character into question and implying that one is in opposition to God Himself, is a common form of spiritual abuse, one that Gothard mastered well.

9. 

   Phillip August 7, 2011 Reply

   I had the privilege of being part of the Recovering Grace presence last night at the Houston Seminar. This was my second Seminar to take the message of Grace to, and as Kelly mentioned, responses like these prove the desperate need for the truth to be told.
   
   I had the opportunity to speak personally with Mr. and Mrs. Whitt last night, and was initially excited to speak with Diana, who introduced herself as a grandmother. I thought, 'surely with the multi-generational experience we would find a person that would hear our heart, and the real reason we were there, instead of simply assuming that we were angry teenagers.' Unfortunately, it was not the case.
   
   After Mrs. Whitt told us that she had spent some years in debate, it became obvious that our conversation with Mrs. Whitt was by her intent little more than a debate session. Yet, our simple questions remained unanswered: "What percentage of people have to be hurt by an organization before it is worth your time to share the truth?" "Why is choosing to not report abuse an acceptable response from the leader of an organization that has the trust of parents world-wide?" Mr. Whitt came out briefly, and asked his wife to come back inside, mentioning that "we (the Whitts) have a life, and hopefully these people will too, someday." To that, Mrs. Whitt softly said to her husband, "Go find your own conversation." Sadly, I could not count the number of ATI parents (including my own) that I have seen display disrespect for authority, while extolling the wonders of Bill Gothard.
   
   Certainly not what I expected from Seminar coordinators, Grandparents, and people who have proclaim the belief in Christ Jesus. But we saw this with the coordinators in Dallas, also. My team members were harassed, yelled at, berated, and angrily told to just "get over it, and move on with life" by the wife of the Dallas Area Coordinator.
   
   As I look at the dwindling number of IBLP attendees to the seminars, the statistics that only 1% of ATI students use ATI with their own children, and most importantly, the response of the IBLP leadership...I know we are making a difference.
   
   John, Donna, Darcy, Rachel, Matthew, Brandon and 600+ others too numerous to list here...Thank you for your courage, and your resilient heart.
   
   As for me, I will carry on...I will speak to those who want to hear...I am not angry, I am not bitter, I am full of Grace and am burdened to share it! If God uses me to save only one from having to recover Grace in their own lives, if only one escapes the abuse, pain, or loss of their relationship with God and fellow man, if it makes a difference to only one...it really will be "worth it all."

10. 

    Revkev August 7, 2011 Reply

    Diana:
    
    It is encouraging to know that your experience with The Institute has been a more positive one than the stories recounted on this website. It would be easy to discount these stories in any number of ways because they don't match your experience. That's why this site approaches the issue from several angles. If the arguments from personal experience seem off-base to you, let me encourage you to read over the theological articles section, especially the three articles regarding the nature of grace and our deep concern that these truths have been mis-defined by Mr. Gothard. Let us know what questions or concerns you have with those articles; they provide some context for the experiences described here. If you were being taught a faulty view of the gospel, wouldn't you want to know it? The scriptures must be our overriding authority, even if it means being labeled 'disloyal' to a man or movement.

11. 

    Will Hunsucker August 7, 2011 Reply

    Message *
    "Gothard teaches that obedience to leaders must happen without question."
    
    True Story:
    
    Toward the end of my last year in the Moscow Training Center, I met w/the international director responsible for all decisions regarding the MTC.
    
    I was asking that a close friend of mine be allowed to visit, once a week, a youth bible study in the Russian church we attended.
    
    I had been granted that privilege. For some reason, he was denied. Therefore my intercession.
    
    I was told that my request would be considered, and not long after, flew back to the States.
    
    
    I soon learned that my friend had not been allowed to attend this youth Bible study, and wrote a letter to the International Director asking for clarification. I also questioned this decision, which as anyone knows is verboten. Absolutely forbidden.
    
    
    As soon as my letter crossed the desk of the International Director, I received a rather irate phone call from him.
    
    I listened for a good half hour, having quickly understood that a conversation was not desired. This brother in Christ proceeded to let me know in no uncertain terms, for 30 minutes straight that: If I continued to question Authority I would a) Never succeed in life, b)Never Succeed in ministry, c)Never get a wife, d) Never get a decent job, e)Never experience God's blessings, etc, etc, etc.
    
    He was a bit ticked off, to put it mildly. I questioned his decision. Therefore, I as a student who had voluntarily given three years of my life and finances to the ministry of ATI/IBLP in Russia, was severely reprimanded, condemned, and all but cursed.
    
    
    I believe there is a well known saying that is very pertinent to Gothard's teachings on "Authority."
    
    
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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      lori August 7, 2011 Reply

      this is so true and thank you for your telling of the experience. im glad to see others see this in the light of your last remark. without a governing body with authority over him, he has run wild with more and more "words from God" and will not let anyone counter his wisdom or teachings. any resistance is met with condemnation and curses. you were right to say curses, but because of grace, we know who has the power and who can heal us. Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith!!!! he is the author!!!

12. 

    RonieSue August 7, 2011 Reply

    Absolute Authority...i cringe each time I hear this statement. It is this concept statement that my step-father would remind me of everytime he mistreated and abused me. My mother knew about this and did nothing...for she was reminded to be obedient to her husband. Unmarried girls must learn to be obedient before marriage so they can learn obedience in marriage...it's no wonder I waited untill I was 30 to marry.
    I am so glad I came to know Christ and His powerful GRACE...Christ unraveled the twisted teachings from IBLP/ATI...and for this I am grateful. Thanks for making this site available.

13. 

    Will Hunsucker August 8, 2011 Reply

    Hmmmm.
    
    For clarity's sake, let me say that the experience I described above was NOT w/Mr.G himself, but a highly placed "authority" in ATI/IBLP.

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