The year 2011 was an interesting chapter in the legacy of Bill Gothard, the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), and the Advanced Training Institute (ATI). Through what we believe is the hand of God at work, many of those who were raised under Gothard’s teachings began to reach out to–and compare notes with–others who had shared the same experiences. Although there had been past online communities and local support groups for former Gothard followers, there was a new explosion of such activity sparked by the blogging of former students. It was not long until ATI students around the world united in the realization that they were not alone in the negative long-term effects experienced from their many years in ATI.
A number of Facebook survivor groups were launched so that students could offer support and encouragement to one another as they go through the process of healing and recovering from their past. It was out of one of these large survivor groups that Recovering Grace was born. Many of these survivors saw a genuine need for a website that would help others like themselves find true spiritual freedom through a biblical understanding of God’s grace, which we believe is at the heart of the Gospel. We also wanted to provide a Biblical analysis of Gothard’s teachings, warn others of IBLP’s dangerous influence on families, and help many more people understand that they did not fail in incorporating the formula into their families—the formula itself failed. Our website’s impact has already been greater than we could have imagined, as we have seen well over 50,000 visitors to the site from 148 countries.
Gothard’s Response
Apparently in response to this surge of former students and parents speaking out and questioning his teachings, Bill Gothard authored a letter in November addressed and mailed to “all past and present ATI students.” You can view the letter here. This letter created quite a buzz among the various survivor groups, as it was the first time Bill publicly acknowledged that some former students might have been hurt or “offended” through the cumulative effect of time spent in his programs. However, this excitement quickly turned to disappointment as realization sank in that the letter was simply another attempt to emotionally manipulate his followers, blame their problems on a failure to uphold his legalistic standards, and defend his false definition of God’s grace. Although the letter was written with a sincere tone, we feel the letter was really just an attempt to do damage control among his followers by discrediting the message of those who are speaking out.
Recovering Grace is addressing Gothard’s letter publicly because we give voice to a large number of the survivors he is speaking of in his letter, and his letter serves as an excellent example of how a spiritually manipulative leader operates. Because most of us have known Gothard personally and have spent years working alongside him, we have a good perspective on the difference between what he appears to say on the surface and what he is really communicating between the lines.
The Letter’s Introduction
Gothard begins his letter stating that he has dedicated his life to raising up a generation of “world changers.” Throughout the history of IBLP and ATI, Gothard has often used elitist language to promote his programs and seminars. He has often referred to “giving the world a new approach to life,” and has appealed to parents by promising a fail-proof formula for their children’s success if it is followed correctly. Such tactics have been very effective, as they preyed upon our parents’ desire to raise godly children who love the Lord and follow Him with all their hearts. What Christian parent would not want this for their children? There is nothing wrong with this desire, but God does not operate on formulas for success. Gothard has continually made promises that are not his to make, but God’s.
Gothard states that being a world changer “requires even greater sacrifices than are embraced by Olympic champions.” This type of thinking is at the very heart of legalism. The concept that “if I work harder and sacrifice more, God will use me more than others” is absolutely, unquestionably unbiblical. This is not to say that discipleship is without cost and sacrifice, but our motivation needs to be love and devotion to our Lord and Savior, rather than a focus on spiritual significance. Jesus rebuked those whose desire was to be greatest in God’s kingdom (Luke 22:24-30).
The mindset Gothard is trying to establish is antithetical to God’s call on believers to be humble followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our focus should not be on leaving the legacy of a “world changer,” but should rather be prioritized by a Christward direction and a servant’s heart (Mark 9:33-35). If God then chooses to use us to make an impact on the world, all glory belongs to Him.
“Missing Factor of Wisdom”
Gothard establishes a valid biblical premise that Christians need to seek God’s wisdom. Throughout Scripture, believers are challenged to find wisdom and to study the Word of God. Gothard states that his ministry has created “Wisdom Booklets, Wisdom Quizzes, and Wisdom Searches” in order to help people find God’s wisdom.
However, these materials contain many principles and ideas that are scripturally unfounded (see our Twisted Scriptures articles for examples). Many of these “wisdom” resources are based on Gothard’s “rhemas,” which are often based on his own ideas about Scripture passages taken out-of-context.
Theologians, Christian writers, and pastors have long warned of Gothard’s erroneous use of Scripture. Christians should indeed seek the wisdom of God, but true wisdom is found in the unfettered Word of God, not in Gothard’s legalistic dogma. Because of these things, we do not believe that Gothard’s teachings are a valid source of “wisdom,” either educationally or Scripturally, as he would have his followers believe.
“The Real Reason to be Different”
One of Gothard’s long-held premises is the idea that God calls us to be different than the world and to have a higher standard than the world. In his letter, he gives three Scripture passages that supposedly back up this claim (John 17:14-16, Romans 12:2, and I John 2:15). However, if you actually read the Scriptures, none of these passages say anything about higher standards. They primarily deal with being “in the world but not of the world.” A subtle but important difference exists between this idea and what Gothard is communicating.
To illustrate this difference, let’s consider Gothard’s teaching on pork. Gothard has often taught that Christians should keep the Mosaic Law (or at least certain portions of it that he has selected). One example of this is Gothard’s teaching that Christians shouldn’t eat pork. Gothard would refer to such a lifestyle choice as a “higher standard,” when in reality, this “higher standard” was abrogated by the New Covenant (Acts 10:9-16; Colossians 2:16-17). Believers are under the New Covenant, not the law, so any decision to follow the law is a matter of personal choice. Stating that all Christians must follow one man’s preference on certain aspects of the law is legalism. Our focus is to be on Christ, not man-made standards.
Gothard continues the letter by making some rather bizarre assertions about the need to hold “higher standards” because our disciples look to us for an example. He goes so far as to say that “our disciples…will motivate us to maintain a higher standard.” While it is true that we as believers must walk worthy of our calling in Christ, Gothard’s focus here is on outward appearances. As we disciple others, one of the first things we should be teaching them is that God looks upon the heart (1 Samuel 16:7), not the goodness of our outward appearances. The call upon a Christian disciple is not ultimately one of keeping higher standards; God calls us to a life-transforming relationship with Him as we live by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is simply guilt-based legalism or a “Jesus+” theology.
Next, Gothard lays out his first of several arguments to discredit those who would reject his standards–a common tactic which those of us familiar with his teachings have often witnessed.
Gothard says that the reason so many former ATI students have turned their backs on his standards and training is because they are not actively leading others to Christ. In the process of interviewing over 3,000 students who have gone through his “Journey to the Heart” program, he has supposedly determined that very few of these young people are winning souls for Christ or discipling anyone in the Commands of Christ (the 49 commands that Gothard determined are most important in Scripture and which, amazingly, line up exactly with Gothard’s 49 “character qualities,” and which, conveniently, can be purchased for only $49).
In reply to this assertion, we make the following observations:
- The 3,000 students Gothard supposedly interviewed are not those who have rejected his standards or left his program. Case in point: “Journey to the Heart” is an IBLP program, and while enrollment in ATI is not a requirement for attending this program, attendance or viewing of the Basic Seminar IS a requirement. So it is safe to say the students who attend this program are currently involved at some level in IBLP’s teachings and ministry, and are not those who have left it.
- Gothard preaches isolation and separation from the world. Because of this mindset, many former ATI students were not only ill-equipped to speak to a lost person, but were also discouraged from doing so lest the “world” rub off on them. Their only form of evangelism was supposed to be the brightness of their countenance and their high standards, in hopes others would notice and inquire about what made them different. There was no encouragement to engage those in the world unless it was to challenge them to adopt higher standards. Gothard created the very problem that he is blaming for the lack of outreach and evangelism in his program.
- Many of us who have turned our backs on Gothardism ARE actively ministering, soul-winning, and discipling. Many of us are pastors, teachers, lawyers, church leaders, Bible study leaders, and community service volunteers, to give just a few examples. We share Gothard’s concern and passion for the lost. But it is our freedom from fear and legalism which has equipped us more effectively to lovingly pursue others. In fact, we would argue that those who have abandoned Gothardism are MORE likely to be engaging the lost with the gospel, because we have lost our fear of the world’s “contaminating” us and recognize that “greater is He who is in us, than he who is in the world”(1 John 4:4).
“The Underlying Battlefield”
Gothard also has a long history of blaming rebellion against his standards on the “evils” of rock music. In this section of his letter, he says that “In almost every single case [of someone who has rejected his standards] the root cause has been their acceptance and involvement with unclean music.” In two short sentences, he dismisses every challenge against his program as the result of rock music. (It is also worth noting that he refers to his teachings as “the way of life that their parents have taught them” so as to shift blame from his failed methods to the parents who trusted those methods. It is also a thinly-veiled attempt to manipulate by guilt any adult former-student who might have since come to a separate conclusion than their parents on the issue of rock music).
He proceeds to take his argument one step further when he states that listening to such music leads to addictions, immorality, and possession by unclean spirits. The assertion is that most of us have rejected his standards because of rock music, and therefore are also likely addicted to pornography and controlled by unclean spirits! This is not only an easily disprovable “slippery-slope” fallacy, but also a low blow to those of us who are standing up to Gothard on behalf of the thousands who were spiritually destroyed because of his addiction to legalism.
It would not take much effort to prove that we are not a bunch of demon-possessed porn addicts. Rather, we are forgiven, redeemed, blood-bought children of God who are, for the first time, experiencing true freedom in Christ. Sure, we still sin. And when we do, we throw ourselves upon the mercy and grace of our precious Lord. But our sin is not because of some outward influence called rock music. It’s because of our fallen human nature. Sin comes from within our hearts, not without. But, thanks be to God, Christ redeems and forgives our hearts and has granted us His robes of righteousness. We are forgiven, we are redeemed, and we rejoice in our forgiveness!
It is also worth noting that, as usual, the Scriptures Gothard uses to make his case against rock music have absolutely nothing to do with music. The passage he mentions in Haggai specifically pertains to ceremonial laws for cleanliness within the context of a prophecy about the rebuilding of the temple (Haggai 2:11-14). It has nothing to do with music, nor is it hermeneutically appropriate to view it as a “principle” that should be applied to our lives. The passage in Corinthians is about Christians who are in inappropriate relationships with non-believers. James is referring to a general spiritual battle against worldliness, and John is specifically referring to rejecting envy, lust, and greed. None of these passages have anything to do with the topic of music. (You may read more regarding what the Scriptures say about music here.)
“The Definition of Grace”
Our website gains its title from our desire to expose Gothard’s false definition of grace, and to help those affected by it “recover” true grace in their lives. (For more about how Gothard twists grace, view the “grace and faith” section of “A Call for Discernment.”) As a result, the concept of grace is a constant thread throughout our website.
Gothard, well aware of our attempts to correct his re-definition of grace, devotes an entire section of his letter to defending it. As has been noted many times, the error is in his definition of grace as “the power and ability to do God’s will.” We affirm that God’s grace does grant us both of these, as evidenced many places in Scripture (Philippians 2:13 is a good example: “… for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose”). A life of Christward pursuit is fueled by the enabling grace of the Holy Spirit. The problem, however, is Gothard’s application of this one outworking of grace to the broader definition. In other words, one of the results of grace is the ability to do God’s will, but Gothard is saying that grace IS the ability to do God’s will. This is a very subtle difference, but an extremely important one.
Gothard attempts to use the Westminster Confession of Faith to affirm his definition, but the Confession he is using would similarly disagree with his application of the part to the whole. The portion he quotes (WCF 9.4) explains that when God transfers the sinner into the “state of grace,” he is then able to do that which is “spiritually good.” We fully believe that statement. But grace is far more than this. It is grounded in God’s unmerited favor and not in any power or ability within us, God-given or not. This is a concept repeatedly presented elsewhere in the Westminster Confession, such as in the next chapter (10.2): “This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.”)
To apply one effect of God’s grace as the definition would be akin to defining oxygen as a gas that makes our brain work correctly. Yes, oxygen keeps the synapses firing, but its uses are far more pervasive, and it would be misleading to define it solely by one effect. God’s grace in Scripture is not simply a potential (an ability to be used or neglected) but a change of status that we have no hand in. It might be most helpful to state it this way: Gothard is defining God’s cooperative grace in our sanctification, not God’s unilateral act of our justification. To apply his definition to sanctification could conceivably make sense, but applied to our salvation, it unequivocally suggests that saving grace is a work or ability within us. Gothard may believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but his definition casts doubt on this and, even worse, has undoubtedly confused many of his followers as to where their acceptance before God is founded.
Many theologians have called out Gothard for this redefining of grace, only to be swiftly rebuffed as those who would “turn the grace of God into lasciviousness,” an accusation that Gothard utilizes in this letter. We absolutely do NOT believe in grace as a license to sin. We hold firmly to the truths found in Romans 6, where Paul rebukes those who would use grace in such a way. We pursue holiness in our walks with God as a response to God’s unmerited favor. We walk daily in a love for the Lord and a freedom that comes from following His Holy Spirit, not a list of man-made rules. We believe that “the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” (2 Corinthians 3:17) As we walk in dependence on His Holy Spirit, He will not lead us into licentiousness, but into a freedom to rejoice and delight in serving the Lord with boldness, without living in fear of His rejection or disapproval.
“A Time to Rejoice!”
Surprisingly, Gothard invites those whom he may have offended to contact him. While this is perhaps a step in the right direction, we honestly do not believe that it is enough. Time and time again over the past three decades, Gothard has been confronted with the heresy, hypocrisy, and spiritual abuse within his organization (here is documentation of this in the 1980’s and again in 1997). At no time has he publicly apologized for his wrongdoings or corrected his teachings and behaviors. We believe that if he were truly remorseful, he would repent of his false teachings, deal with the rampant hypocrisy and pride that has characterized his ministry, and publicly acknowledge and make restitution for the spiritual and emotional abuse he has both committed and tolerated.
We believe that while Gothard may feel sorry for many of his victims, he tries to find ways to cast blame for the failures without taking any personal responsibility for the spiritual destruction that has taken place. His refusal to acknowledge or address the sexual, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse that is daily being brought to light by Recovering Grace and other former ATI students can only be read as either indifference or blatant refusal to take responsibility.
A Formal Call to Repentance
Therefore, in light of our desire to proclaim the unadulterated truth of the Gospel (Matthew 4:17):
- We prayerfully yet boldly issue Bill Gothard a call to repentance for his errors;
- We call on him to recant his false and legalistic teachings of the Gospel; and
- We call on him to make every reasonable attempt to make restitution to his many, many victims and acknowledge (without shifting blame) the spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical abuse they endured while in his program.
While we understand that much of what he has done in ministry may have been with good intentions, his refusal to accept correction and his attempts to silence (or fire) his critics throughout the years has not served him well in the long run. Now as his organization is just a shell of what it once was, the fruits of his labors are being revealed.
We are his fruit—the thousands of us who have been hurt by his teachings—and we call on him to repent and begin preaching the true Gospel as found in God’s Word. God’s grace is extended to everyone—anyone—who realizes their need for it, and we will gladly and joyfully extend grace to Bill Gothard upon his repentance and will welcome his heartfelt remorse and restitution.
However, as Bill Gothard chooses to remain unrepentant and continues to sweep aside these documented grievances, we at Recovering Grace will have no choice but to continue to tell our stories as a warning to those who might consider following his teachings. We will continue to make every effort to expose the truth about his organization, publicly critique his false teachings, and shed light upon his spiritually abusive “new approach to life.”
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January 23, 2020
Wonderful reading at this early hour. May the Lord continue to add His blessing to your ministry, and may true reconciliation occur between Mr. Gothard and those of us who have been wounded by the Gothard industry. Thank you for your diligence in rebutting the heretical teachings masquerading as truth.
It seems to me that any Christian Based group that has a following or gains momentum, seems to scare people who are not part of that group. Some of these Christian based group are off the mark, but most of them are doing their best to get closer to God, understand the Bible, and live more like Jesus. Is that so wrong? I believe BG teachings are calling people to live more like Jesus and the character the Bible outlines and demonstrates how Jesus lived. Not sure why that is so damaging to many or scary. I also think the submitting to authority is taking out of context to prove a point for some on this board. Any time someone mentions the word "submit", people get fearful that it means being controlled, or dominated, or disrespected, or something else negative. Everything that BG has said aligns with the bible. Are there some people who will practice BG teachings in unhealthy ways. Sure! of Course! But who's fault is that.
It is quite a standard to live up to and only Jesus could live up to this standard, but we should all strive in that direction. We will all fall short of Jesus and will stumble along the road. When some people stumble, get sucked into temptation, or go a different path they want to feel justified on why they are doing what they are doing or broke off and will attack the group they used to be a part of. We all stumble and make mistakes and we will commit sin from time to time (even BG), but how we respond to the slip up is most important. Do we get right back on path or live in anger, judgment, etc.
I find it interesting that 99% of the people that post have something negative to say about BG. Is it just the people who want to attack BG are the ones who feel obligated to post or does this website just post selective responses that support their own beliefs. I do not pray to BG or worship BG, I pray to God, I pray to Jesus. BG has just been a helpful tool for me to understand the Bible and God’s word. I filter every word BG says to see if it aligns with the bible and God and when it does I take it to heart.
"Everything that BG has said aligns with the bible."
I invite you to the section on Scripture twisting (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/) to see how this is very much not the case.
I am surprised every time I hear some one say that. Even as a 12 year old I knew the character of Christ! And the way BG uses scripture is NOT a accurate representation of Christ. Now having heard the teachings of BG for 30 years I can only stand in awe, when some one can say that his teachings are aligned with the bible. Maybe you could ask God to give you back that "child like faith". I hope you can see truth!
No, the website does not post only selective responses ;) Anyone is welcome to comment.
PaulC,
Any Christian movement or teaching that emphasizes living by certain rules over and above evangelism is off-base. As believers, we are called to share the Gospel and make disciples. Our ultimate goal is not to stay in our own little bubble and be better than everyone else. Yes, we are called to be holy and walk in the light, but Scripture directly links that to others. We are to walk in the light to spread the light. Jesus spent his time with sinners, though he was without sin. Jesus participated fully in the culture around him, including being a practicing Jew, sharing meals with people so unclean that they were shunned by many in their society, and giving people wine at a wedding and at meals. By definition, if you want to be more like Jesus, you cannot totally separate yourself from the culture and people around you. (Obviously that does not mean that we should participate in any and every aspect of the culture around us, but Gothard's teaching that we are tainted by coming close to anything unclean is just as obviously off the mark and not how Jesus lived.)
As Gothard's own letter evidences, evangelism has not been a priority (or even something he taught at all) in his group. While I am glad that he finally is realizing that, it is hard to see how the young people under his rules ever will be more effective in actually leading others to Christ when they are kept away from those unclean sinners. Almost any conversation a Gothard kid could have with a lost person is perfunctory and shallow; Gothard kids definitely are not able to built the type of friendships that most often lead to sharing the Gospel meaningfully and deeply. As Recovering Grace's response made clear, Gothard himself has created the problem of a lack of evangelism.
I could not agree more with this statement: "Any Christian movement or teaching that emphasizes living by certain rules over and above evangelism is off-base."
I am putting it on my refrigerator, to remind me to stay on track as I raise my little ones. Thank you.
Paul, I shake my head at your previous comment where you affirm Gothard.
However, on this one, I must agree with you.
Gothard did not teach evangelism because he did not teach the gospel. Instead, he taught principles, concepts--everything but the gospel of Jesus Christ in an attempt to produce a dynamic, hybrid Christian somewhere between heaven and earth utilizing the entire law which would magically hit the receipe of success and transform the world as the world would come to us begging to know our secret. I am not in any way ignorant of his teachings...I was under his teaching in ATI for 19 years and several more before that in IBLP. I've been in close personal settings with him many times. I reject his teachings.
Bill taught that we would not need to go to evangelize the world but that they would come to us asking us about our keys to success.
Um, to put it very simply, that's not God's plan, and it is not even close to the gospel.
I would give Bill Gothard an F for utilizing his creativity and persuasiveness in his presentation of the essential doctrines of Christianity in opposition to following the road map of evangelism given in Scripture. To miss the core message of the gospel given to us in Scripture is akin to taking the wrong road with the map right in front of our noses. It is a failure to utilize the information correctly.
Anyone can make a mistake, but this type of mistake should not appear in Christian leadership. I think he was not 'apt to teach.'
Frankly, the bar is higher when we speak of leadership.
Gothard taught us to speak of not dating, not listening to rock music, the wonders of fasting for health and spiritual reasons, the wonders of abstinence, not having high places of humanistic degrees, avoiding the Babylonian system, etc., etc., etc....just as you said, perfunctory and shallow.
I am sorry to say that sensing a call from God to missions, I took almost a 20-year detour in the IBLP system. All is not lost, God redeems, so I'm grateful to Him for that. Let's just say, I won't be sharing the IBLP principles with people.
"Gothard did not teach evangelism because he did not teach the gospel. Instead, he taught principles, concepts--everything but the gospel of Jesus Christ..."
Samuel, you hit the nail right on the head on that one. That reminds me of a sermon I heard once during my college years at Springfield, MO's Second Baptist Church, where the college and singles minister, who was filling in for the pastor one Sunday evening, gave a sermon about that very thing, using the illustration of a major-league baseball player from years gone by (just specifically who it was, I forget -- someone wanna fill me in here?) who had nailed this one pitch that went over the outfield wall and would have been a home run for him...but he was. to the shock and outrage of everyone at the game, called OUT at the plate -- all because he failed to touch first base.
To the best of my recollection, our singles minister didn't specifically have Gothard's teachings in mind (and no, Second Baptist is definitely NOT a Gothard-following church, praise God!), but a sermon like that could most definitely have been about Gothard pushing higher standards while ignoring the gospel, with, of course, first base here representing the pure, unadulterated and un-Gothardized gospel of Christ.
Although I don't support Mr. Gothard's current lack of candidness on his sexual discrensions. I pose the following response.
I was never part of ATI, but did attend the Basic and Advanced Seminars.
Pork wasn't approved in the New Testament as you say. The early Christians wouldn't have thought of eating it. Peter's vision was obviously a parable to tell him to share his faith with Gentiles, not start eating pork and other unclean foods. And pig meat has many problems today as is seen in the news.
Rock Music - Why would any Christian be supportive of a music genre whose very name comes from having sex in a car, thus Rock and Roll? It doesn't take going to the Bible to figure out this music isn't of God? So I really don't understand your support of RnR. You could probably name on one hand those RnR artists who claim to be Christian, so that should tell where the music comes from. Thankfully, when I was around 18 years of age, I figured which side of the fight between Christ and Satan it comes from. Does listening to the messages and music of RnR lead me closer to Christ?
So in summary, I don't support what Mr. Gothard has done, but it is interesting to me that Recovering Grace goes to these issues to say that Mr. Gothard is off track and a legalist.
{bangs head against wall in response}
The Bible states some believers say they can eat meat sacrificed to idols and some believers say it is sin...each believer should be convinced in their own heart.
Since meat is no longer sacrificed to idols in our culture and time period, I would guess that scripture can be taken in a generalized way and applied to things of our culture today.
I like some rock style music but am very wary of the words and life style surrounding it. But having been born in the 50's have an ear for that the 50's beat even though I would rather listen to Sons of the Pioneers. (ok, some of you might puke at reading that!) SEE what I mean.
And considering how some Christians may be very leery of any kind of suggestive lyrics in any song, will probably not want to listen to most country, 40's swing, some easy listening, even some songs from the 1890's or earlier might be off their list.
Elvis Presley was not well received by the elders when his music first came out as rock and roll was considered "EVAIL!" In the 60's the Beatles hit the scene. Now their music is elevator music. Should take the stairs up 40 flights?
And I am sure some Christian kid is probably already putting lyrics about Jesus to rap.
I like the scripture that says it is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out (of his mouth.)
p.s. I am also an artist and I prefer a realistic painting over abstract art but does that mean it is sin to others if they like abstract?
Actually, the whole "eating meat offered to idols" thing, was that the actual eating of the meat, was considered an act of worship. To idols. Something Christian were forbidden to participate in (the idol worship, that is). So the eating of the meat became a grey area, "What if I just buy the meat after the sacrificial ceremony is over? Is it still an act of worship, then?" As such, I see the entire issue as being about idolatry and not at all analogous to rock music. Rock music is a cultural thing, it is not specific to idol worship, one way or the other. Has really nothing to do with the original "eating meat" question.
Sorry, it's a personal pet peeve when people try to make the ancient idol worship debate synonymous with the American fundamentalist rock music debate. Completely different context, completely different issues.
Your interpretation may be correct but the various versions of the Bible written in English is all I have to go by in these modern times. I understand that there are the literal interpretations such as the meat offered to idols is what it says---about offering meat to idols and worship involved with that meat, but since that event no longer applies today, except perhaps in some isolated cultures, then I have to take what it says and somehow apply it to my life today and the culture I live in but thanks for your insight anyway. It may be helpful to me in the future.
Mark 7:19 - Doesn't get any clearer than that.
Also, your statement about his INdiscretions is absurd. You don't support his lack of candidness of his sexual indiscretion or do you not support his SEXUAL INDISCRETION?
I'm going to assume that was a mistake and you're not saying he should have tried to cover his sin better.
Excellent! Well said, and exactly on track. I appreciate you taking the time to respond carefully and thoughtfully. Well done.
Very well-written response.
THANK-YOU for taking the time to put together this response. It is obviously a well thought out letter that wasn't put together quickly, so thank you for the time. IMHO, it represents and will speak out for so many of us ex-ATI students and help with our healing!
Excellent! Very well-written response. May God use it to enlightened others and bring them to freedom in Jesus Christ. May He also use it to bring Bill to his knees in repentance.
Well, there you go. What you said! Thanks
Awesome!! Praising the Lord for His wonderful grace and His opening the eyes of my heart-
Eph 1:17-19 "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might..."
Very well said. Thank you all for putting this together!
Thank you for the work you are doing. I did not know about his letter, but quite frankly can't stomach reading anything from him. I trust what you have to say. I also would like to know where his letter to parents is? Bill spoke with calm assurance and guarantees concerning his teaching. He led a multitude of the most well meaning parents astray. The destroyer seeks to destroy the family. With all the damage done to so many families, shouldn't that tell us something about Bill? By their fruits you shall know them. I thank God for this ministry that is exposing Bill's erroneous teaching.
Maddy, I'm with you. I couldn't finish Gothard's letter; it was making my heart race and my stomach twist. This response is beautiful. Eloquent, *Scriptural*, yet right to the point. Thanks so much.
How is this response biblical. Recovering Grace is twisting what BG said, and is not using scripture in its intent. Please think twice about slandering & attacking BG like that.
Slandering and attacking? Ha.
Why not think twice about slandering and attacking Dona like that?
Caleb,
I 'm not a part of the RG staff, but I can say with confidence, having met some of them personally, that they do NOT have a vendetta to destroy Bill Gothard's reputation. They are not out for revenge. I firmly believe that they are people that wish to only share the truth about Bill Gothard.
I noticed you just commented and said that Recovering Grace had twisted Gothard's words and Scripture too, but you didn't cite any examples of how they did so. If you expect us to listen to your complaint, you must provide evidence to back it up. If not, you make yourself look like an uncredible complainer who simply doesn't wish to hear negative things said about Bill Gothard. And furthermore, why have you not followed the Matthew 18 procedure and confronted Recovering Grace privately over their letter?
If there is anything in this "Response to Bill Gothard" that is a distortion of his words, or of Scripture, please provide examples, and explain your perspective, otherwise you lose credibility.
Caleb,
You ask how this response is biblical. Paul clearly teaches that false teaching that is public should be called out publicly. (I Timothy 1:18-20) Bill Gothard has resisted any attempt to be held accountable for his false and misleading doctrines in private, so now discerning Christians have a duty to warn the public how Bill Gothard twists Jesus words, in ways that puts the very burdens on people that Jesus condemned in Luke 11:46.
Caleb, you want Scripture? Check out the "Twisted Scriptures" section of this website.
Exactly, Maddy. My parents never had heard of him while I was involved, so they never heard all his claims and promises. All they heard was what I was learning and who I was becoming at the training center. Because they were not blinded by the glare of promises of perfect kids, they could only see the strange, cultish behavior I was engaging in, and they were very troubled and concerned. Who knows--if they had heard all the "testimonies" about how perfect my life would be, maybe they would have encouraged it rather than been concerned by it?
Yeah, according to him, I'm just a poor porn addict. Um, yeah, I'm not. Thanks SO much for that horrible false accusation!
Thank you for putting this together. I especially loved this:
"We are his fruit—the thousands of us who have been hurt by his teachings."
Most of us raised in ATI are familiar with this passage from Matthew 7:16-20:
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."
With many who claim that they were "blessed" by Gothard's teachings and many claiming they were devastated by those same teachings (I'm one of the latter), something is amiss. Gothard needs to PRAYERFULLY consider this quandary because if he's the good tree he thinks he is, there shouldn't be ANY bad fruit.
AMEN Ryan!!!! Very well said.....
Good thoughts Ryan!
Yes... "we are his fruit." The fruit he tries to "disinherit" so to speak.
RyanR, You misunderstand the principle of the fruit and the tree. The fruit relates to the actions and results of the tree itself, not those who sit under the tree. You are not the fruit, but you are a fruit taster (and have judged it bad, your prerogative). However by your standard of "no bad fruit" even Jesus wouldn't be a good tree since one of His 12 handpicked disciples was "bad fruit". If I have been blessed by a teaching and you have been devastated by a teaching isn't it likely it was the personal application of the teaching that made the difference? If our standard is that we can't listen to a teacher unless all their teachings are correct then would there be ANY pastors or teachers left?
Greg, that's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Jesus knew good and well when He chose Judas Iscariot, that he would betray Him. Jesus committed an intentional action in order to fulfill Scripture, that is nowhere near being a good example of good tree/bad tree, good fruit/bad fruit. He knew exactly what He was doing.
I'd also like to point out that no-one here has ever said a teacher/preacher has to never say anything wrong for us to listen to him. There will always be someone who doesn't like what a teacher said, and that's ok. Every preacher/teacher will occasionally have wrong teachings, that is to be expected.
But in this case, where the MAJORITY of Gothard's students are saying there was serious damage from the majority of his teachings and programs, that's when there is a problem. I believe the ratio of those claiming damage to those claiming blessing, is 70/30. And that would be my conservative estimate. I heard somewhere that a whopping 3% of former ATI students have re-enrolled their families into the program. That really speaks for itself, I think.
(Please remember that every last one of us have had a similar experience in realizing the teachings were wrong and damaging, it took time, and for some, years of study, leaning on God, to realize just how subtle the lies are in many of Gothard's teachings. It could be that ten years from now, even you may look back on a teaching you currently believe in, and realize that it was completely false. Please take that into consideration.)
I don’t think it is a stretch that many of those who listened to Jesus were themselves bad fruit. The vast majority of the multitudes who followed Jesus around in the end did not hold to His teachings, nor did even many of His disciples according to John 6 “As a result of this (Jesus teaching) MANY of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore…”
As to the majority, isn’t it also true that 80% of evangelical youth in America leave the church, never to return? Does that prove that Church is bad too?
Were you damaged because you didn’t get to experience the joys of riding the bus or going to public school? Were you damaged because you didn’t get to go to youth group, Christian rock concerts, go on dates or watch TV? I actually got to do all those things before we got in ATI. You think you were damaged? But I know it really doesn't help to compare your hurts to mine.
Do you really mean that you were damaged by Gothard’s teachings or by PEOPLE who believed his teachings? Isn’t the real problem people? People cause hurt no matter how "spiritual" they are. Is blaming all those people’s problems on Bill Gothard's teaching fair?
I don't think people are often persuaded against themselves that Bill's teachings are wrong. I think that's usually something people somehow discover for themselves. So I won't try to convince you otherwise than you believe. But I would be curious, what might the evidence look like that you would find compelling that a teacher's teachings have been hurtful to people?
"Do you really mean that you were damaged by Gothard’s teachings or by PEOPLE who believed his teachings? Isn’t the real problem people? People cause hurt no matter how “spiritual” they are. Is blaming all those people’s problems on Bill Gothard’s teaching fair?"
Greg, I find your comment fascinating, because isn't Bill Gothard a person? Why are you assuming the options are to either discount his teachings OR the people around him? Why not allow that Bill Gothard, as a person, has made some terrible mistakes and led people astray by his own false teachings and lack of living what he teaches (especially in regards to not being under authority and the inappropriate touching of underaged girls)? In other words, isn't Gothard a person, and as a fallible human being, couldn't he cause hurt no matter how "spiritual" he is? Why take him out of the equation of fallibility in even asking your question? From the very way you phrase those questions, you appear to put him on a pedestal and assume him infallible.
Well Greg, I don't think you realize how this comment comes across: 'missing out on the joys of riding the school bus, public school, youth groups, etc..'
Please do not assume that the hundreds of grown men and women who have poured their broken hearts into this website, are pouting in the corner over something as petty as that.
Probably 98% of the Recovering Grace contributors are devout, committed Christians. We are not heathens or cry babies. There are actually some on here who were the parents, who now deeply regret putting their children through the program.
Maybe you haven't considered how much courage it takes to tell your story when you know people don't want to hear it.
I fully realize, understand, and appreciate that there were some in ATI who didn't have a horrid experience. Let me explain why.
Based on my observation and research, the few families who really did have a good experience, did NOT follow all of the teachings, they picked and chose what they liked, and applied those teachings with a light hand.
On the other hand, that same research has shown me that without fail, those families that fell apart, with broken relationships, horrible damage, etc.. were families that followed the teachings as much as they could, to the T. There's too many people (people who have never met each other) saying the same things, sharing nearly identical experiences, for me to believe that this is a mere matter of 'oh, it's just someone applying the teachings wrong.'
To me, this proves that the teachings themselves are flawed, and as Gothard insists that these teachings are 'God's only way to finding true success', and other similar catch phrases, what are we to suppose then? Follow the teachings to find success.. well you might say there was success alright, but it was not the promised success. The thousands of people who are coming forward with negative stories seems to decry 'good fruit'.
Well, all that being said, there is an entire section on this website devoted to various of Gothard's teachings, and proving that they are not Scripturally accurate. I invite you to go visit those articles if you want to know more.
God bless, and have a great night. :)
I think Heather hit the nail on the head in her observation that families with a good experience "picked and chose" what to apply and those who had negative experiences "followed to a T". But I want to bring up the difference between teaching and application. Teaching: Bill taught that parents were responsible for the education of their children and that understanding the Bible should be the central focus of education and since public schools don't accommodate either therefore you should home school. Application: Bill also had a lot of advice and counsel on how exactly that home school should function, like family wisdom searches at 5am etc. I would defend Bills teaching all day long, his advice on all the details, no way. The Bible has a lot to say about education. It has nothing to say about 5am wisdom searches. My family did not put Bill on a pedestal so that we blindly followed all his advice. You can't fault Bill for giving advice when people asked for it, and 5am wisdom searches did work for some people. But those who took Bill's word for God's word fell apart in very similar ways because their foundation was similarly built on sand. For one minute pretend Bill is on the rock, even so, if a person believes (even solid truth) because Bill said so it becomes SAND TO THEM, and they must fall. Two families believe the same teaching, one believes because the teaching caused them to study God's word and agree, one believes because they are sure the teacher is right and begins to focus more on the teacher. If 30% are the first group and are blessed and 70% are the second group and fall apart it does not prove that the teachings are flawed.
Thank you for completely missing my point. You have also missed where Bill did not make his teachings optional. He never has. If your family was able to go through the seminars and miss that somehow, I would say you are very fortunate indeed, and are in the minority. And honestly, how can Bill know so much about family and raising kids when he never had any? I have read of other men/women who wrote books on child rearing, and when they actually had children of their own, realized how insufficient, or in some cases, wrong their teachings were. Bill is not God, Paul, or even a prophet, for he has self-labeled himself as 'anointed'. That screams dangerous to me. However I see that you said you will defend his teachings all day, so I suppose there isn't much point to further debate when we are all not even on the same page. If you do not wish to see that what we are saying is true, and why, then that is certainly your choice. I can't stress enough how fortunate you are if you have truly missed out on the damage. Btw, Bill's details aren't optional either. But like I said, you missed the point.
Thank you for writing this. It's very well done; I could not have said it better myself. As a former ATI student, I fully support your efforts in bringing the truth to bear on Mr. Gothard's teaching.
Awesome! Says much of what I would have said myself. Praying for many to read this and think.
One thing to add: Legalism is one problem. Authoritarianism is another. Both are wrong, and as we all know from experience they travel hand in hand here.
Thank y'all for putting this together! Well written! Kudos!
Well said! Thank you for putting this together...you have expressed my thoughts and heart!!
Wonderful! Thank you for writing this.
Thank you for writing this article for all of us who were damaged by Bill's teachings. I agree with your opening statement that God is at work as we are opening up about how ATIA/IBLP impacted each of our lives! I am grateful that the Holy Spirit is working in all of us and that we have come to a place where we are willing to acknowledge our hurt, disappointment and pain..... I am grateful for everyone's honesty... It is comforting to know that we are not alone in our struggles! God is at work in each of our lives and He is using the site to bring healing and hope!
Blessings,
Carrie
excellent article! well-written and I am grateful for you for it.
Outstanding letter. I appreciate this website. May God continue to minister through your efforts.
thank you for the letter. it was better expressed than the letter that gothard sent to all of us and i for one am glad there is someone who can express it completely and without emoding, but just straight forward approach to the statements that bg made. im grateful for the people at recovering grace and pray for this ministry every time i think of you!
Oh, I can debunk that letter right now!
My parents were never involved in ATI. I was. So I cannot have rebelled against the way of life they taught me :).
Oh, and I'm an active volunteer at a Crisis Pregnancy Center, and witness to my co-workers and unsaved friends. So, yeah, I must be a "freak" from the program!
Extremely well thought out and written. Thanks guys for writing this on behalf of all of us who have been seriously damaged by these teachings. I read this letter when it was sent out, and immediately felt the manipulation and scorn. I felt like I was back in the circles of fear and shame and pain...Thank you for articulating so well what I could not.
As the founder of a group of over 100 non-christian former ATI students, I would like to say that this message does not speak for all former ATI students.
I don't care about BG's repentance and coming to actually "follow Christ."
I just wish he would someday get a taste of the hell that he helped put us in.
I ultimately blame our parents, but BG took a huge part of that as well.
John Hordyk
Thanks John. To the author of the letter, I would say that I would like "many more people [to] understand that they did not fail in incorporating [Christianity] into their families—[Christianity] itself failed."
Speaking personally, I am not one who holds this opinion (that Christianity itself failed) but I certainly respect the right of those who do, and I am under the impression that John's number of 100 is on the conservative side of those who do agree. I think their voice needs to be heard, though Recovering Grace (RG) will probably never be their chosen venue (personal opinion - I am neither a spokesperson for RG nor for the non-christian students).
It seems to me that most of the former students of ATI fall into 2 camps: those who believe Gothard wasn't that much different than Christianity in general, and those who believe that Gothard got the Christian faith wrong. It makes sense to me that the former group would tend to speak out against religion (or at least the Christian religion) at large, and the latter group would tend to speak out against Gothard's teachings in particular. Taking from Maria's aphorism, the first group would say that Christianity itself failed, the latter group would say that Gothardism is what failed. There will be some overlap between the two groups but some significant differences as well. I think both groups deserve to be heard and neither group takes away the other's voice in sharing their perspective. That is my $0.02 anyway.
Excellent.
I was particularly disappointed with three aspects of his letter. One was the complete avoidance of abuse. I wonder if he even cares. I wonder if his heart has ever once been broken by the pain that some unfortunate children in authoritarian homes (homes which parrot his teachings about the hammer and chisel and umbrella) have experienced. I wonder if he even cares about the tears and heartache.
The second thing was his use of the pornography issue. There is a clear implication that "rock music" and porn are intertwined, and that the "failures" could be attributed to those issues. The sleight-of-hand here is that his supposed interviews were with his own students, fruit of his own teachings. If the system worked so well, then why are his students (and ex-students) struggling? It's because his system works exactly as well as Scripture states: "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." (Col 2:23) His system does not prevent students from struggling with issues such as porn nor does it help them out of it if they fall into it. To slyly suggest that the reason his former students are upset with him is because they are demonically oppressed porn-hounds is neither honest nor helpful. He knows better and he is capable of better but because he is surrounded entirely by yes-men and adoring parents, and because he brooks no opposition from his followers, nobody stands up to him to challenge him to actually reach out in meaningful and helpful ways.
Third, I was intoxicated with his promises and his optimism about the "Godly generation" that was coming from ATI. From the first year of the program with its 102 families until now, he has promised great things. Parents and their children have been swept up in his enthusiasm. The question that every parent in his program should be asking: where is that generation? Whatever happened to those 102 families? We have evidence of much pain and heartache. The promise was not fulfilled. The evidence is in and frankly, I see him as a fraud. But on he pushes, selling the same thing over and over. Why so many parents fail to research what the actual results are is beyond me.
Gothard's system is hopelessly flawed, as Paul wrote that such systems always will be. The answer is not more rules, more discipline, or having some kind of exciting new vision for changing the world. The answer is abiding in Christ (John 15) and keeping in step with the Spirit (Gal 5, Eph 4, Col 3 and other such passages).
Well said, Matthew.
Yes, Matthew. Precisely.
Thanks Matthew... From your first paragraph, I wonder too if he cares. We were steeped in his beliefs and accepted them as right until the devastation became apparent, and then we were blamed for the hurts we, at varying levels, struggle to deal with... The hurts and abuses that I personally for so long accepted as my responsibility.
I didn't realize I was a porn addict until I read BG's letter. Gosh darn, now that I have been informed of this sin in my life (that I didn't know about), maybe I should consult his big red book to figure out what the root cause is (aside from the rock music that I don't regularly listen to anyway..)
Good grief!!! Actually, to be perfectly honest, I did struggle with reading porn novels WHEN I WAS UNDER HIS TEACHINGS! (And did not listen to rock music, at least not regularly). Guess who doesn't read them anymore (because I don't 'need' OR want to?) This girl!!!! I found something a million times better, it's this guy called Jesus.
"I was particularly disappointed with three aspects of his letter. One was the complete avoidance of abuse. I wonder if he even cares about the tears and heartache."
Well said, Matthew -- and I'll even go one step further here: Given his refusal to come clean about the abuse and his inappropriate relationships with young girls, I honestly have to question whether Bill Gothard is even really saved to begin with. And yes, I'm turning the teachings in Matthew 7:15-20 right back where they belong -- ON HIM!
My family was somehow 'sucked in' to a church that lived by Gothard's principals and teachings. I can tell you out of the 50 some teens that lived thru this, 45 of us have MAJOR issues with relating to those of the opposite sex (you know - we weren't allowed to talk to 'boys'), and issues with balancing freedom once we reached adulthood. It is nice to find out after all these years I'm not the only one who saw problems in this way of life.
No Christian is perfect, were just forgiven. He doesn't expect perfection, he expects perseverance.
It is good to hear from people who were affected by Gothard/and or legalism but weren't actually in ATI. I know many young people who have the problems you describe after coming out of legalistic churches.
Come join one of our recovery groups, Krissy, if you wish :) At the top of the page. No need to actually be a former ATI student.
A few of my very favorite points:
"But it is our freedom from fear and legalism which has equipped us more effectively to lovingly pursue others."
"We are forgiven, we are redeemed, and we rejoice in our forgiveness!"
"...we at Recovering Grace will have no choice but to continue to tell our stories as a warning to those who might consider following his teachings."
Very well put!!!!
You know, sometimes you just gotta forget what's behind and press toward the mark, taking care not to throw the baby out with the bath water (and there was, unquestionably, a lot of dirty bath water). Healing's good, but too much looking back will lose you the race! Love each of you in Christ and look forward to seeing you, either in the here and now, or on the other side of time. Dave
I think this site is more of looking to warn and help others who are newly out than of looking back. Sometimes you have to look back to be there for someone else... maybe more than you want.
When someone mentions "baby" and "bathwater" in the same sentence like that, I always want to know, "What baby? What was the baby? Where is the baby?"
As someone once said, "Anything good that Gothard has is not unique to him, and anything unique is not good..." I think that anything in the man's teachings of true Biblical value, can be gotten elsewhere.
I have yet to find a baby in that bathwater.
There was so much dirty water the baby couldn't be found! :-) I was a student in ATI and it was horrible for my family. Sometimes you have to rediscover what went wrong to figure out how to fix things. Those who accuse of us of looking back and not "getting over it" are wrong. Would you tell a victim of abuse to "get over it, forget about it etc"? No. they probably need counseling! ATI was a cover for major spiritual abuse.
I have always quoted that too. 'Don't throw out the baby..." Now I am realizing that "the baby" is the residual effect in my life and how I interact with others. I am beginning to realize that his teaching has skewed my view of God and scripture. I feel like I have to reanalyze everything I believe and whether it is right. My trust in leaders has been shattered. Is it possible to fully recover?
I received the letter. My first reaction was that the offer to have "those who have been offended to call (him)" sounded humble and noble, but it missed the point. Bill has never done anything to offend me personally, but I have seen those who disagree with him try to show him his error to no avail. I'm sure he would love to have people call and give him an opportunity to show them the error of their "approach to life". You don't have to have been personally offended to have experienced the negative results of a legalistic belief system.
Well said!!!
I had the exact same thought when I saw the letter. I have not been offended in a way that he must make it right to ME, although many have been. My problem is with his whole approach--the "umbrella" that he thought was going to protect all the young people from themselves served to protect other predators from being caught. And when it was pointed out to him that their "authorities" back home were being abusive, he pulled out his bitterness charts, or talked about Godly appeals, or just told them to bear with it. The umbrella was a bad idea. He needs to own up to it, and a whole bunch of other bad ideas that have damaged families. I would prefer he do it in a seminar, right there in front of his most admiring followers. Not to me over the phone.
KariU,
EXACTLY. And so have his followers. When I revealed my pastor's spiritual and emotional abuse of me to an elder in my church, he quickly brushed by the pastor's offenses and pointed out that he thought I was struggling with some bitterness, and that Satan would gain a foothold through that. Well yes, I suppose I was somewhat angry at the man who attempted to manipulate me into an adulterous affair. Prior to that, when I had been struggling to fully explain to others why I did not want to follow my pastor's orders not to date or even get to know the (good, Christian) man who became my husband, of whom he was jealous, I was advised to put myself under "the umbrella of authority," even if he was wrong. God would make it alright that way, but if I removed myself from "the umbrella," woe betide me, for God's protection would be removed!
I still cannot believe how the forest was missed for the trees. That man should have instantly been removed from office because of his serious sins. Instead, I was condemned and then shunned for being "in rebellion." That is what happens when we place man's words on a par with God's.
"That is what happens when we place man's words on a par with God's."
Ivy, this is so true. Whenever man's ideas are put on par with God's, damaged lives will inevitably follow.
First off, thanks to all the Recovering Grace contributors - the articles you publish are helping me put words to to a lot of internal angst that just hasn't quite known how to come out before now.
I've begun reading the letter (my family wanted me to read it back when it came out and a fellow Recovering Grace reader suggested I look at it about a month ago - ha!) and found it interesting that, typical BG fashion, there's the whole "Problem? I wrote a book for that! And I'd be happy to give it to you, free!" manipulation (right at the top of the second page).
Strange, now that I've actually begun experiencing REAL grace, I have absolutely NO desire to dive back into any ATI/IBLP stuff - least of all a book that will "fix" the "problem" I must have. (Really?!)
Thanks for your grace-saturated post. Thanks for walking with me as I heal.
"Problem? I wrote a book for that!" Hahahaha, can we please have a "Seven Steps for Overcoming Bill Gothard"?
Yes! Can we *please!* have a book like that?
LOL!! "Seven Steps for Overcoming Bill Gothard..." Where do I sign up?
Here it is---that list that promises to bring you much closer to God by following it. Know that He will be pleased and bless you unto the 14th generation of the mold in your fridge if you take this to heart....
7 STEPS ON HOW TO GET OVER THOSE WHO MAKE THOSE LISTS ON HOW TO LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE----
1. Realize that those who make those lists are just men, full of faults---more to be pitied than pissed on but the second thing would be so satisfying.
2. Realize that only Jesus truly speaks for God and that God is much much much much much much bigger than BG or any like him.
3. Realize that life is short but God is forever and He will help you in all things-no matter how long it takes!
4. Realize that faith and healing are things that takes time and that you must grow patience.
5. Realize that patience comes when you no longer give a crap.
6. Realize that any one who makes lists that a certain number of steps will fix everything may not be playing with a full deck.
7. Realize that a sense of humor is indeed helpful in any situation dealing with those who can swallow very large middle eastern humped mammals.
Esbee. thank you for bringing joy to me. You made me smile again :-)
esbee said: ".. unto the 14th generation of the mold in your fridge if you take this to heart...."
hehehe
Yep, you all said it so well. Thanks for putting that letter together. Honestly, my life as a follower of Christ, discipleship, and witnessing improved and blossomed AFTER I left Gothard's teaching system. If we truly are seeking the lost we need to know how to connect with them. It's a life long process, and I spent my most important years of life learning how to PREVENT effective evangelism.
I absolutely love this. The response is gracious and intelligent and uses Scripture in an appropriate way. Thanks to the authors for presenting our perspective so beautifully.
Good response. I think one of the more troubling aspects for me in that letter is the idea that the failure to systematically teach the 49 commands of Christ that Bill Gothard has outlined has led to demise. Huh?
What happened to the 11 commandments that directly came from God?
It's not a system or program that brings success. It's a personal relationship with Christ. How can one have that personal relationship and sensitivity to the spirit if they are being told they must follow a set of guidelines that is not completely true to scripture?
Thanks for spreading the word, RG.
Maybe that promised 'godly generation' affected most by BG and his teachings will end with us.
One can hope. =)
Or end with him. He's no spring chicken anymore. I just hope very much that his supporters don't make a martyr out of him, which is why I want him exposed to the world before he 'shuffles off this mortal coil.'
Thank-you so much for all the hard work you guys put into this response, it is very well done!
Well written. It was freeing for me to realize that just because I still sin no matter how hard I try not to, does not mean that either I am defective or God has rejected my request for grace. The key was understanding the difference between practicing righteousness and positional righteousness. In the former, I must make the change and it must be reflected in my daily actions. If I sin once, I begin to doubt my salvation. However, in the latter, righteousness is imparted to my behalf from the account of Jesus, and HE is responsible for maintaining my standing with the Father. The "pains of childbirth" continue in my life until through death I am delivered into eternity, when I will be in practice released from the carcass of the old man which still haunts me on this earth. Jesus doesn't just take away our sins. He gives us his good works for our own! Gothard is still trying to do Christ's works instead of abiding in the reality that it's already done. Only when we do this do our physical actions miraculously begin to reflect the one whom we are found in. You can't get there the other way around because our purpose here is not to be "different" just for the sake of being different; it's to know God in a personal way and help others to have relationship with him as well.
I am one of the original 102 families. I have not followed the fallout of ATI students. I am sorry to see your experiences mirrored my own. It has caused a crises of faith that I carry with me even now. I struggle daily with not faulting God with my views from my childhood. I have not raised my children in any church. I consider it abuse. If there is a god...may He have mercy on Bill Gothards soul. I know that many times I have had nightmares that I am again isolated in the North Woods unable to get home. I was personally blamed for the immoral thoughts a young man was having about me...because I have curves that god gave me. I had the, as covered as I could possbly make them. But I was told to not stand up straight...to hunch over...and to ultimately stay in my room for 24 hours a day because this little perv had a problem. Guess it was the rock music...lol. I know families still in this program. It saddens me. Thank you for trying to help. He can't live forever.
Wow!!! I am so sorry that happened to you!!! If it isn't our arms it is our curves, if it isn't that it is our ankles or our neck. Wait...!!!! IT ISN'T OUR FAULT!!! LOL (I am not really yelling, this is just what I would like to yell if I could get close to those people again. haha)
I'm sorry you had those experiences. I have moved on, but memories are painful :(
Carrie, I invite you to come check out one of our recovery groups, at the top of the page, if you haven't already. Thank you for sharing. You are not alone.
All I have to say is AWESOME!!
This is an excellent response. I found his offer for the offended to contact him directly troublesome, because I know so many who have done so, and in the end told their concerns or experiences were invalid. BG is a master of manipulation and he has a lot of presence if he can single someone out.
This effort to take those things done in secret and shout them on the house tops, to verify and publish experiences, is something beyond his ability to manipulate. He loves the power of testimony a little less now I think.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Exactly
Having spent some time with BG accompanied by my father I can attest to that. I feel confident stating that should anyone contact him there would be disbelief, long thoughtful pauses, and no resolution for the offended.
'Ole Bill just doesn't get it, does he? Never has- never will..
Great article. I pray that God will use it mightily to further expose the lies that have been foisted on well intended but misguided believers who believe themselves that they need to work to earn God's favor. Thus they're strong gravitation to someone who teaches them how "10 steps" to solve virtually every spiritual problem and to gain greater godliness.
I too have great doubts about the sincerity of his offer to have us contact him. I know first hand of the experience Joel Robbins had in doing just this and the response he got. I was tremendously disappointed in Bill's response and dealing with Joel to say the least.
It looks like Joel Robbins was teaching at Mr. Gothard's seminars fairly recently. He is listed on the iblp website- what am I missing? My husband is a physician and we were an ATI family years back. That's what started our uneasiness with his teachings- the mistrust of any established medical knowledge just for the sake of being different.
N,
I believe that the Joel Robbins Drew was referring to is a different one than the one currently speaking for IBLP.
The Site Administrator
It's interesting to see this from the outside looking in. My parents attended a few Gothard events in the 80's and early 90's. They liked some of the teachings, but in the end found the Word of God directly should be our guide.
We knew so many people who were Home Schooling, like we were, but every waking hour was spent at ATI meetings or reading through its materials. I remember thinking it felt very strange to see people devoting so much time and effort into worshiping a man's teachings.
Now as an adult, I look back and see the subtle abuses of well-meaning parents and the unquestionable abuses of those that flocked to a lifestyle that made abuse easier. I still remember the day I found out my close friend was being raped by her father and feeling so much anger that I had no way of reconciling. How could her father, "a pastor and ardent Gothardite", do such a thing?
2 years later while at a church event together, I had to sit there and watch as yet another pastor tried to tell her that "accusations are not always true and her dad was probably falsely accused". I remember wanting to punch him so bad, but found myself chasing after her to try to be a comfort in a hostile environment.
You're all wondering what the point of my story is. Well here it is. Many Churches in practice teach that people are generally good. They state from the pulpit that we are sinners that need saving, but when children or adults who have left the church (little c) state there are abuses; they have historically turned a blind eye.
This group has a unique opportunity ahead of you. It is time for someone to let those scarred adults and children know that the god of ATI, is not the same God of the Bible. It is time for someone to let them know that God wants to be the comforter for their wounds. I applaud you for your efforts to right the wrongs done. However, if you take down Gothard, another group will pop up (See Vision Forum - A man who thinks Gothard isn't strict enough).
I want to thank you for your message in this post as I never quite understood and I think your post was concise and well written. I will continue to read as your group pushes forward.
In Christ,
-Benjamin
Thanks Benjamin. I also had many concerned friends and family when we were in the program who could not quite put there finger on what was wrong. Wish this site had been around then.
The ATI Curriculum is a tool used in part or in whole by some homeschooling families. I have seen the end result in that there are young people who found that it was like that of a thumb pressing down on them and others thought it was revealing of how edifying the process had become. Those are the two spectrums. It was not the author, curriculum, or method advised to be used that made the difference - it was the mom and dad who ultimately decided how to raise their children to fear God. In education, it's not the material presented but how it's presented to you that makes the biggest impact. For those of you who have gone to college you know what I'm saying. Life has lessons that we learn - school days are part of those lessons - what we do with those lessons is up to us individually. No matter what the circumstances were during your childhood/young adulthood - God has a plan - His plan - He loves you no matter what and cares for you no matter what - He alone is sovereign and I know He is still on the throne. Feel mistreated in your life - take it to Him - He alone will take care of whoever or whatever in His time. God Bless - Keep Looking Up
Are you serious, Tom? Really?? You said, "In education, it's not the material presented but how it's presented to you that makes the biggest impact. For those of you who have gone to college you know what I'm saying." I'm a former ATI-student, and I DID go to college and get my degree. And then I later worked for a Christian College. I have to say that the logic of your argument makes no sense at all. It is VERY much the curriculum that makes a difference, as well as those who are teaching! If a college history class were to teach a curriculum that stated that there was no evidence of the Holocaust, the KKK violence never happened, and that slavery was never much of an issue for our country, there would be a major uproar over the curriculum. Because you see, educational curriculum is either right, or it's wrong. There's no in between, or saying that it's all up to the teachers to make a difference. I HAVE seen exceptional teachers take a bad curriculum and help people get *something* out of it. And I've seen lousy teachers make even the most exciting curriculum put you to sleep. So yes, teachers make a difference. But the bottom line *educationally* is the curriculum and its accuracy; if it's full of error or full of truth. And I would argue from an educational standpoint, that the ATI curriculum is full of errors--EDUCATIONALLY, not just biblically. I do NOT feel that the ATI Wisdom Books prepared me well educationally. And my parents even supplemented other curriculum to make up for the lack of it. In fact, when we were still IN ATI, we were often advised by HQ and our Family Coordinators that we would NEED to supplement our curriculum with other subjects, because the ATI curriculum was not good enough to help us get our GEDs. I feel that I eventually did receive a good education, but that it was in spite of ATI's curriculum, and my parents' excellent efforts with it. In my personal experience, it was the curriculum that was full of error, not my parents' teaching of it.
"For those of you who have gone to college you know what I'm saying."
I earned a B.S. Computer Science and am currently working on a masters (M. Div., with a counseling concentration, meaning I take classes from both the Seminary and the grad school). I had to work hard to make up for some areas where my ATI-based education lacked. Perhaps I'm not reading your comment as you intended. Something I notice, it seems that you are dismissing the opinions of those who never went to college and implying that those who did break away and go to college would agree with you. The only way an ATI student of my time could go to college was to break away entirely from ATI, since they taught that college was a sinful and idolatrous "high place". Many students desired very much to go to college but were denied that opportunity thanks to Bill Gothard's teachings against it.
Thankfully it is the case that God is sovereign and our lives are his, not our own. But to dismiss a pervasive pattern of problems and tell people to take it to the Lord as if this ameliorates the problem won't do. Many passages in Scripture suggest that there is a time to take action on behalf of the oppressed. Isaiah 1:17 is one example:
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
By the way, I would argue that the content of your education does in fact matter. If you take a physics course, they darn well better teach you physics.
To take a step back, though, you imply that some students did well with it. Do you personally know students who were raised in the program who speak well of it and are using it with their own kids? As far as I can tell, those success stories seem to be the vast minority but in the interest of knowledge and truth I'm very keen to hear about stories from across the whole spectrum.
I too went to college (B.S., MBA, and J.D.) and I do not see what you're saying. Curriculum has a big impact. Ironically, from what I remember, ATI frowned on outside curriculum BECAUSE it might be filled with ungodly presuppositions. ATI even presented a whole session about Hebrew learning vs. Greek learning where the point was made that Hebrew learning was better because the learners were only exposed to "correct" philosophies whereas in Greek learning, the learners were exposed to diverse philosophies (whether or not that premise is even true, I have no idea, but I do vividly remember ATI teaching this).
And to be clear, I do not see that the purpose of RG's response to Gothard was in any way to lament that ATI students lives were ruined beyond repair. It was to challenge his claims (which are similar to your claims above) that fault for the failure of ATI to have its promised impact lies with the families who used the curriculum and not with the curriculum itself. It also was to offer a warning to those who may be considering using this curriculum that it isn't as shiny/pretty as it looks.
Finally, not all of the damage to ATI students resulted from the curriculum. Quite a bit was the result of abuse endured while working for IBLP through one of its many platforms. Much of this is outlined in articles under the "Tales from Training Centers" category.
No. Absolutely not. The teachings and materials themselves are flawed. Often the families as well, bit the teachings are definitely unscriptural and lead to bondage. Check out the "twisted Scriptures" section of this website. Some families were wise enough to avoid the more damaging aspects of the teachings. That does not exonerate the teachings.
I graduated from college before my family joined ATIA, though I had been to many IBYC/IBLP seminars in my high school and college years. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in English from an accredited college. I minored in computer programming, music, and theatre. From a humanities standpoint, the ATI curriculum was sorely lacking unless parents chose to extensively supplement the materials. It is my understanding, from friends who have a mathematical background, that the ATI curriculum was also mathematically deficient.
I STRONGLY disagree with the assertion, "It was not the author, curriculum, or method advised to be used that made the difference.... it's not the material presented but how it's presented to you that makes the biggest impact." In education, the curriculum and its authors are of paramount importance, and the methods of presentation are secondary to the quality of material.
If I may draw an analogy, the final outcome of an education, like that in cooking, depends on the quality of the basic ingredients. The best chef in the world cannot make excellent food with inferior ingredients. And the worst chef in the world can still provide something nourishing if given excellent ingredients to begin with.
Similarly, the best teacher in the world, if given a dreadful curriculum, cannot provide a superior education. He may be able to do more with it than an untrained teacher could, but he will not be able to provide an adequate education from it. However, even an untrained teacher can provide a solid educational foundation if he is provided with an excellent curriculum on which to base his work.
The ATI curriculum, though undoubtedly developed with the best intentions in the world, was dismally lacking in basic academic merit. Parents who relied solely on the "Wisdom Booklets" and other ATI/IBLP publications for their homeschool curriculum did not have a solid foundation for their children's academic growth.
Pingback : A Response to Bill Gothard’s new letter to former students « A Quiver Full of Information
Thank you for the great letter in response to Mr. G. I was wondering, did you send this response letter to him?
Mr. G's comment at the end of his letter struck me, "I do not want our past failures to hinder you from experiencing God's blessing on your life." Since when do someone else's failures hinder ME from experiencing God's blessing on my life? Thought that one was a bit funny - almost sounding like he wanted to "fix things" to get us back into his program or something so that we could experience God's blessings?
I thank the Lord that His blessings in my life are free and abundant, and unhindered by Mr. G's and ATI's failures.
Just curious, did that statement strike anyone else as weird?
Yes, Hope. I've heard that Mr. Gothard is receiving a copy of this letter in the mail--just to make sure he sees it. :-)
Perhaps he meant that he didn't want our bitterness or dissilusionment to get in the way of our relationship with the Lord.
In fact, the legalistic leanings of IBLP/ATI did affect my childhood faith. I was so focused on how the world perceived me, and whether I was messing up in God's eyes, that I stopped seeing Him as the One who loved me enough to sacrifice His greatest gift so that I might live with Him in eternity. The whole of God's nature became flat, and the side I saw was the side that judges the sinner.
Nice of BG to not "want his failures to hinder me," but in practice they did. And some have left the Faith entirely as a result.
Children are sponges for learning. We soaked everything up, and we trusted. And when we became adults, and studied these things for ourselves, we began to realize that we had put our trust in a man who didn't deserve it, and who couldn't handle the responsibility.
I completely agree with you. Thanks for posting!
I wish there was a like button for your comment "Hope"!!!!!
Sadly, many of us were fooled by Bill Gothard because he was a Wheaton College grad
& a psychologist. Test all spirits. It's a cautionary tale about false titles, money & power.
Well said, well written! We are just glad to be free in Christ.
No offense, but this site is kind of strange. Everyone seems to be blaming BG for his teaching ruining their childhood or causing them to have "issues" now that they are adults. It seems to me that it is not BG's fault, but instead, if there is anyone to blame, it should be the parents of the people who think the "ati lifestyle" harmed them. Who told them to follow a man and to teach their children to do the same instead of following God? Had they no discernment? I do not believe that the fault lies with BG or ati, for if these parents hadn't found BG/ati, they would most likely have found some other group with a "leader" to follow (ruining their childrens' lives in some other way). It kind of reminds me of the way Adam blamed Eve for his sin (going so far as to tell our Lord that it was the woman the HE gave him that caused him to sin.) No, the blame game is not helpful.
That said, I do not believe that we ought to blame our parents for making mistakes, especially when they really only wanted what they thought would be good for us (barring true physical/sexual abuse). As brothers and sisters in Christ, it would do us good to forgive those who have harmed us and move on in Christ Jesus.
I have read some ati materials and most of what I have read is good encouragement as long as someone is not looking to replace the Bible/our Lord Jesus with what ati puts out. Chew the meat, spit out the bones.
I know some adults that "grew up ati" but they do not seem to have the problems that many are voicing here, as a matter of a fact they still attend ati functions and encourage others to attend as well. But, I don't think their parents followed EVERYTHING ati taught to a "T". Their parents followed God and used ati encouragement as a tool.
I'm sorry that some people feel that ati is dangerous. In my opinnion, this group is no more dangerous than any other group, conservative, liberal or anywhere in between. The danger is in following ANY man and his "rules" for life (conservative or liberal). And I agree with one poster who said that we need to stop looking back and look forward in Christ.
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” —Psalm 118:8
ATI was meant to be a lifestyle. Back in my day, if you did not live it that way, you were looked down on. ATI espoused isolation from "the world" ie, anyone who did not share your extreme fundamentalist beliefs. This meant you had no one but ur fellow ATIers left for community. Starting to smell like a cult at all? The more time you spend together, the more you reinforce this bizaare belief system, and you have excluded all outside voices who might express caution over any of this.
It is true that many parents were more balanced in their approach, they didn't swallow it all, and in my experience, these families didn't last as long in the program. All the better for them. This does not mean the teachings themselves were not flawed, it means some parents were wise enough not to let it overrun their lives. Gothard repeatedly stated at the homeschooling seminars, (and other students can back me up, here), "It's not a homeschool program, it's a way of life!" He clearly intended it to be that way.
Hannah, I disagree with your statement that parents that were more balanced in their approach didn't last long in the program. Our family was balanced and still actively particapate in the program. We have a choice as to what we participate in and what we will not. It sounds like you all need to choose what is best for you and go with it.
Notice the qualifier, "In my experience". That was just what I noticed in the families around me. And what is best for me, is to not be involved with a program that, I believe, twists Scripture and the concept of grace so severely.
Sherrie, 90% of the families I know in ATI, experienced this sort of thing, including mine. I'm very glad that you are one of the few who had a good, balanced approach.
I think many people who were not raised in the ati program will never understand what it's like....or the dangers involved with living in this legalistic way. Yes...many of the teachings are scriptural and seem good, but there are so many other wrong teachings that put Christians in bondage and ultimately damage our ability to even connect with other believers and reach out to the lost.
I strongly disagree that it's solely the fault of well meaning parents....because they were just as deceived by BG's false teachings. My parents are very strong, loving and dedicated christians...who were sucked in by all the promises of "fail proof results" if they followed this "new approach to life" and raised their children according to BG's principles. (Which they were led believe were in line with God's word.)
Still praying for complete healing and grace for our family....
That's ok "a reader". Cultic experiences seldom make any sense to those outside them.
Exactly!
Gothard taught error, taught it as truth, and taught that there was no other option for a Godly life. Therefore, he gets blame.
These shushing, calming comments make me think of a group of kids who are sat down and told a story. Lots of the children are frightened by the story, and start crying. Everybody else looks at them and says, "Shh! Why are you crying? Look at these other nice children who aren't scared! It's your parents' fault for bringing you here -- that's why you're scared. Just hush, okay? Go in another room or something! You're loud and upsetting everyone!"
And as the crying children leave the room, they're told, "Don't tell other kids about how scary this story is! You need to stop blaming others and just move on and forgive!"
WHY is it that a religious group with cultish tendencies has to end up with mass suicides, or even 'just' documented evidence of physical, or sexual abuse and financial wrongdoing BEFORE christian people stop repeating:
"Chew the meat, spit out the bones"??!!
Why are so many christians opposed to the idea of calling a public figure who claims to speak for GOD to accountability for his teaching or practice?
Incomprehensible.
"Like"
dear, a reader,
Yes the parents are to blame. But regardless, healing still needs to take place and false teachers and heretics still need to be exposed because there are always people out there who are vulnerable and willing to listen to how they can have the perfect Godly family. First generation Christians like my parents are especially vulnerable. By the way, I know of NO fellow former ati students who are still going to seminars. I am guessing there are not many. The ones I know either do not want to talk about it or have any contact with anyone who was once in ATI with them (leave it all behind), or have PLENTY of bad things to say about it as well as sad stories. Everyone has effects from it to some degree.
Because ATI's teaching was so intertwined and presented as an all or nothing proposition, combined with the isolation of thought, figuring out what is meat and what are bones difficult. Thus chewing the meat and spitting out the bones for many ATI students really isn't so simple. Some of us are having to spit it all out and relearn what real food is from the beginning.
I agree. I am a home schooling parent that happens to use the Wisdom Booklets but we use other materials as well and both our grown daughters are pursuing higher education. We follow God and no man. That is the difference - one must never put confidence in man, but God. Be led by the Lord and your family will be fine. Keep close to the Holy Spirit and His Word and you will be fine. I am sorry that so many used the ATI curriculum to control their children. But can't people use any good thing to control? The fault lies with the people not the curriculum. My children play sports, are active with public school friends and have all been in a church AWANA club since they were 3 years old. They have their challenges but they are not uncool and are not isolated from the world. My daughters dress modestly but wear pants as do I. One must follow their own leading by the Lord and not any man. The problem is that the families that are so messed up followed and put confidence in a man and not the Lord. My husband and I are part of a board that helps widows and orphans overseas and it has nothing to do with BG. We are led by the Lord and not BG. I see no problem with being led by the Lord and discerning for yourself what is real for you. My parents went to the BG IBLP seminars and never told me to follow things to the "T", they always said let the Holy Spirit do the convicting and than He, the Holy Spirit, will give you the grace to stand. I have told my kids the same thing. They listen to music and watch movies and swim in modest swimsuits. We are part of Southern California and like the weather and enjoy the beach and out door activities. I have coached several of my kids teams in recreation sports as well as play on a ladies softball team. I enjoy reaching out to the non- Christian ladies on my teams and praying for them. Yes, I am a ATI home schooling mom that had the privledge to coach my daughters' AYSO U14 girls soccer team to a third place finish in the Western State Championship for AYSO. I love sports and do not agree it damages people. I believe in balance but still listen to others view. I just know that God gave me the ability and desire to serve Him in sports and has given me multiple opportunities to witness for Him in my behavior and skill. I am a follower of Christ and no man. We are led by the Holy Spirit. We do believe that music can influence a person and not always for the good. We do believe that any thing good can be used for the bad if interpreted wrong. We pray and ask the Lord what is right for us and so far all our children are following the Lord, are able to make it in the world with jobs and such, and love people. Please don't blame BG, blame the people that must idolize someone or some thing. The cult can be in their own heart. I am so sorry that some parents hurt their children in this way. Please don't stop following the Lord and His Word. God bless.
Yes, parents are at least 90% responsible for their children, and terrible parents can misuse the most well-intended materials available (the bible is a notable example of rampant misuse of a wonderful tool).
However, this doesn't mean parents should use terrible material if they can help it. The WB are essentially useless, there are better resources on every topic, and parents should seek out these other, better resources at every opportunity, rather than stick to lousy materials, no matter how well-intended the authors of those materials.
The biggest problem with ATI and the WB's, is simply that the pervasive theological themes aren't healthy. It's like a child's crude drawing of God, an ok attempt for a theological infant, but terribly deformed and useless for any other use, certainly not worth sharing with anyone else.
So much of it is pure nonsense (anything about music, courting) that any use is unjustified.
My family will never use the wisdom booklets or anything put out by IBLP/ATI or Mr. Gothard in raising our children.
Never. Ever. Period.
DITTO!!!!!
To "a reader" ~
I find it interesting that you should end your post with this verse:
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” —Psalm 118:8
Because that precisely is what this website is all about. Trusting in the one true God and not man -- whoever that man or woman may be.
It is not surprising to me that individuals you "know" who were connected with iblp/ati haven't evidenced the "symptoms" described here. God brings each individual to the point of understanding the verse above and seeking His face in His own way and time. From my own experience I can say that I would never have been open to "seeing" that there were problems, huge, horrible problems unless God had opened my eyes with His truth as only He can do. I wasn't ready until then and was so deceived and blind.
Even though I thought "my parents have a more balanced approach" -- they may have on the surface but not behind closed doors. Looks and appearances completely deceive.
Spiritual abuse and emotional abuse are just as real and damaging as physical and sexual abuse.
But thank God -- that His truth sets us free!
Your comment about the children who were raised ATI and continued in it today..'but I don't think their parents followed EVERYTHING ATI taught to a T...' Very telling. You just used your own logic against your claim. Your comment indicated that those who had a great experience in ATI had the good experience because they were not fully entrenched in the teaching, vs. those who DID live by the T of ATI, had miserable experiences.
Basically you have accepted that ATI IS at fault for the miserable experiences, after all, those following it, 'to the T' were living it out EXACTLY how it was meant to be lived. Gothard offers his principles as 'non-optional, and God's way' ergo, ATI and IBLP were absolutely what God wanted for your life, and if you don't follow it, you are out of God's will. So yes, we DO blame ATI, and Gothard for inserting his personal (outrageous) interpretation of God's Word, and fearmongering his followers into accepting it. What were we to do, we children who were raised in it from day one, and had no other way of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' until we grew up? I'm sorry that you do not see the dangers of ATI. You seem to be awfully confident in a program, while telling people not to trust in anyone but Christ.
So in the first paragraph you're saying it's not BG's fault but the parents fault. In the second you're saying not to blame your parents... So really what you're saying it is the individuals fault.
Then something to the extent of don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. - "Chew the meat, spit out the bones."
What if the meat is just plain stinking rotten?
I'm one of those with a different perspective. My difference with BG is not theological, although the bible likely has great importance in this readership and likely supersedes the importance of me as a person.
I would say that I *survived* the ATI program. One does not need to survive theology; ones survives mistreatment. My experience in ATI was one of mistreatment, not theological error. The things that this organization did against young people, young children were damaging and often with the assistance of the people they trusted most – their parents.
My family was in from the beginning. There were many mistreatments of a personal nature. You must not have a beard to join this program. You must allow BG to make important personal decisions like who you can court/date if you are on staff, he takes it as a personal reflection on him as your boss. You must be a participant in having as many children as possible. You must not have cabbage patch dolls or listen to rock music (but bluegrass is okay because BG likes that). You must be submissive to all men in your life if you are female, even if those fathers and brothers abuse/abandon you. God will reward you for being submissive regardless of their errors and if you stand up for your own personhood in thinking that this is mistreatment, you will be reprimanded and pushed back down. You will have to endure watching the abusers be praised for their character, while as a female in the program, we will empower the boys to keep you in your place. You will not need an education as a female - you would just become independent. We will continue to defend the system against your rights to be heard and valued as a woman or a female.
Whether you hold the Bible as important or simply our moral obligation toward our fellow person, there was something hugely lacking - respect for your fellow person (or Golden rule, if that is how you see it).
The mistreatment was this, over and over again: He demanded something he couldn't give. He stripped away personal choices/values because only his own mattered. He cannot give the respect that he demanded. BG's arrogance prevents him from following the golden rule of his own faith – to treat others as humans in their whole personhood – emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically.
Thank you, RG. I could not have said it better, myself. I don't think Gothard will ever hear from me, personally, b/c I feel his "apology" was manipulative and insincere, and b/c really, I just want him out of my life. He's done enough, already.
BTW, I don't think RG ever claimed to be speaking on behalf of all former ATI students.
I have some questions as a result of Lissa's post. You say, husbands/fathers cannot grow beards; were families' applications rejected by pictures of them with beards? Were the families ever kicked out of the seminars/conferences if the men were wearing beards? Did Bill Gothard ask for statements of finances; regarding how the family's income was earned and how the money was spent? Was the sex lives of couples monitored?(including the wives' cycles) Were you required to update him annually as far as changes in the families' lives.(ie, new baby, child's marriage, graduated children's choices in education or employment, change in dad's job, etc) What I wonder is, how would he KNOW that a couple with only a few children are practicing birth control or if they cannot have any more children? How would he KNOW what kind of music one listens to? How would he KNOW if a child has a Cabbage Patch doll?(and if they do, how would he know if the parents didn't buy them but they were a gift from other friends or relatives) Because if he were to monitor their lives that closely, surely he would've made an appearance on 19 Kids and Counting! Or, they're one of the families that, as one said, follow God, and use the Wisdom booklets as a tool.
its been a long time since i was in the program but you would be surprised what all was asked for on those forms... and yes applications were accompanied by photos.
JPU,
There was a lot of secrecy. Many families would put on the biggest front!!! But those ones seemed to be the most normal- the ones where the moms and the girls wore skirts at home but not at any seminars. We actually weren't allowed into the ATI the first year we applied and I am pretty sure that it was because of my dad's beard. Then he shaved it, to sacrifice it for the family so that we could possibly get in. The next year we were accepted.
Gothard did a lot of speaking, most of the things he said were very controlling even if he didn't actually have control over those things. Many parents were afraid to not because if God didn't bless their family, then they weren't following the principles right and Gothard would know. Children were labeled "rebellious" even if they were simply questioning the program and parents were humiliated by their rebellious children.
There were many things that put on the pressure; Perfect, ATI, families with 13+ children, and each child could play an instrument or quote whole passages of the Bible or were going to create their own modest clothing line... were marched across the Knoxville stage for everyone to see the "success" that we COULD be having if we followed the principles correctly.
Just trying to give you a better picture... Trust me, he takes all the control a person will give him so that they could somehow fulfill the desire to be seen as "right with God" by someone who was obviously one-on-one with God.
Actually, JPU, you had to submit a picture with your ATI application. If you had a beard, you had to shave it, unless you were Mennonite. I vividly remember discussions when I worked in the ATI department about a father who had grown a beard and since he was not Mennonite, his family coordinator was to call him and tell him he had to shave it off.
Also, I just confirmed with my inlaws that indeed ATI families were required to update ATI once a year in the form of a questionnaire that outlined how much TV they were watching, whether they were using alcohol, and a litany of other information.
Yes, he did deny admittance to ATI to families where the father or sons had beards. Some were made to sign an agreement that they would shave, if they previously had a beard. BG specifically said that a beard meant that a man was immoral.
Families were kicked out if any one of their children was not home schooled. Originally, this included college age young adults as well. Since the whole family was enrolled, a family would usually update the number of children/status of children each year. At least some of the re-enrollment forms had places for such things to be listed.
There were at least two times when he suggested the idea that the Family Coordinators/Consultants do "home inspections." To check for clutter and other things that might be "hindering the family's effectiveness." They flatly refused to do any such thing, thankfully. But yes, he wanted that kind of control. As it was, he had to stick with speaking against such things in a way that instilled fear of the consequences if we didn't do as he said. The consequences being God's judgement or "discipline" on us.
Another thing he wanted the Family Consultants to know about each family in their region was who was in debt (or not), the state of their marriages, if children were rebelling, etc. And yes, he wanted them to report those things directly to him.
Does that answer your question?
Like others mentioned, there were specific things on the application which were used to determine eligibility (pictures of family, questions about lifestyle, whether they listed to rock music, watched tv, movies, etc.). You could be rejected for answering honestly in the affirmative to any of these.
However, the greater part of control took place through peer pressure. Which is standard for most cults since its so much more effective than direct control from top down. After all, while BG himself may never know if you use birth control, listen to rock music or have a Cabbage Patch doll in your home, the nearby ATI family who you are friends with and may confide in probably know. What you might blow off from some organization you happen to be part of takes on a different cast when coming from others whom you respect/like and whom you hope will respect/like you. It was through this means that the larger number of ATI families were kept under "control". Beware the ATI parent who came to you with "advice or concerns for your own spiritual growth".
our family was rejected at first because there was a TV in the background of our family photo. I also failed a CF test and when I asked why "your hair is too trendy but if you stay and work we will reconsider". You would be surprised at how many people have similar stories, many are more outrageous.
Gothard doesn't have the stones to appear on the Duggars' show. He was giving his "blessing" to two current employees at Oak Brook and the TLC cameraman stopped filming during his speech.
He personally told the bride that if the husband stumbled, it was her fault for not being the perfect helpmeet. He also chastised women in another way, to the bride's face, with no scripture to back him. I was disgusted and hope these young people will someday see the light and get away from the direct clutches of this man.
I suppose "grace" includes the liberty to post vulgar references?
Hi Randell,
Thanks for reading - but you missed the point, I'm afraid.
Those of us whose lives have been adversely affect by BG would rather have you focus on the thrust of Nancy's comment about BG - that he had "...no scripture to back him."
I'm sorry if her/our wording distracted you from the main thrust of the article. Maybe go back and read it again...? Cheers! =)
Its just like any cult... once you have the followers convinced of your power, they will do just about anything to make sure that you know that you are at least almost as good as them.
My mom was convinced that he could see in our faces whether or not we were doing good or not. Remember, rock music darkens the eyes... he knows.....
This response to the letter was both well thought out, and gracious. I'm glad that the response did not fall into the same emotional, fallacy filled false arguments that peppered Gothard's letter. His letter seemed to me more like an appeasement to the parents whose kids had "gone astray" than to actually help any of us who were hurt by his teachings. It felt like he wanted to make the parents feel better by allowing them reasons to blame their children, and not him. He wants their money, after all. I am glad that Recovering Grace is here, helping those of us who were harmed by Gothard and his teachings.
Wow.....lots of comments....and in just one day... :) Lots of truth.... I'm gonna send this to DF at HQ...ok?? I think he should see this....and yes I thought the letter in Nov was over the top....same ole same ole...What is amazing is how God has helped most of us through those times.... He loves us...man will always be fallible! Bill definitely proves that... BTW...I worked at HQ for 6 years! I could write a book.
davek, this was posted as a public letter. I am sure you are free to send it to anyone who might benefit. Even if someone does not agree with it, it might be a conversation-starter. As you probably know, people who are still in the system can tend to get very defensive and sometimes say hurtful things to those who try to reach out to them. Best wishes, sir!
PLEASE FORGIVE US! At a time when public schools were going to hell in a hand-basket and Christian schools had exorbitant tuitions, ATI seemed like a good solution. However, as parents who love our children more than anything, our first "red flag" was when they wanted us to send our children away to things like EXCEL and other places. Why would I home-school my children, just to send them away? Then, another ATI parent told me that we could never leave ATI! "What?" I said. You mean this is a life-long deal? I immediately felt queasy -- I know it was the Holy Spirit telling us to "get out of ATI"; and we did, immediately. I pray for my children that Jesus will heal the damage done to them by BG & ATI. And after reading these heartfelt testimonials, I will pray for all who were so adversely affected.
Awwww, Janet!!! What a sweet response!!! And awesome that you listened to the Holy Spirit!!!
And now you made my day, Wendy!!! I feel like we have a prayer chain going on! I feel so free now that I realize that Jesus died for my sins with no strings attached. It is wonderful having a personal & intimate relationship with Jesus Christ and not having to follow a bunch of rules. I feel closer to Him than ever & each day it is so exciting to discover what God has in store for me. Be blessed!!! Janet
Janet, my parents have also realized the fallacies of the ATI program and that it was probably a mistake to ever be involved with it. I bear them no ill will for the things they did, well-intentioned, but misled. I pray God brings healing to your family, and may his Grace shower you abundantly.
My parents also realize ATI was a big mistake and have said they were sorry for all the things that happened. It is still hard for them to talk about.
Why is it that I so badly long for Mr Gothard go ask m for forgiveness for telling me that I needed to obey my father at all costs - I had told Mr Gothard I was being sexually abused by him and his friends. Why does he cover issues like this up? Why am I the one to look rebellious when I am learning to hear Gods voice for myself. Why must I be the one to suffer Mr Gothards bad choices. Why do I feel so torn between him and how much I hated living as a legalistic? I'm hurting! I am desperate to know what a healthy family looks like!!!!!!!!
Jessica, I am so sorry for your pain. I think the emotions you feel are normal and expected for someone who has been mistreated in such a horrible way, both by the actual perpetrator, and also by a Christian leader who *should* have reported such abuse to the appropriate authorities. If you are on facebook, I'd like to invite you (and anyone else who is interested) to join one of RG's recovery support groups, either for parents or students. These can be found by clicking on "Recovery Groups", at the top of this page.
Jessica,
Your pain is very real. I am so sorry. :-( My heart aches for you, and I am grieved not only by your father's sin but by the response you received from Mr. Gothard to your situation and by his inaction.
Praise God that you are seeking to know and hear God yourself--He loves you deeply, and He has healing and restoration for you in Christ. Please, please contact Recovering Grace if you would like help finding someone to walk through this with you. Or ask RG for my email address--my pastor's wife walked through sexual abuse and would love to talk with you, if you'd like.
Grace and peace in Christ Jesus,
Anna
I'm SO sorry that happened Jessica! :( Please do come find us on one of the RG groups.
My heart goes out to you Jessica. I do understand, and have similar experience. People were shocked when I would share because they saw me and my family as "good ATIers". Your emotions are normal. Keep looking to Jesus. You are on the right track! Please do join an RG group. Understand you are not alone.
Oh Jessica, it makes me want to cry to hear what you went through. I once thought much higher of Bill Gothard than I now do. One thing I was always bothered by was the lack of a real answer for those people who are being abused. I believe his answer to a battered wife was to appeal to her father? Or was it the husbands father? Either way, this seemed to be a cold and ineffective answer to those living in abuse. I hope you find much love and healing in your future. Thank you for being brave enough to share.
praying for you Jessica ~ hope things are better for you. If not, the team here looks helpful or you can email me and me and my team can see how we can help. ~ praying for you - a growing servant/life-slave of Jesus, SH
Sadly Jessica's story is a perfect tie-in with Charlotte's story about Gothard having NOT reported criminal childhood sexual abuse. I surely hope that RG has been in contact with her about this.
Alfred, here is an "independent witness" to part of Charlotte's story, written almost exactly 2 years before Charlotte's was released. And if Jessica's assault is still within SoL, then criminal charges against Gothard are appropriate for failing to report this to the authorities.
Jessica, I know this entry is 2 years old but I hope and pray you are able to recover from what was foisted upon you in the name of God. It is unacceptable and illegal for your situation to have been treated the way it was. Regardless of Gothard's other alleged behaviors and doctrinal differences, his failure to protect the young innocents who came to him for counsel make him unfit for service.
Again, enough victims. This has GOT to stop.
IBLP Board, are you listening????
I do not believe what I am reading. This website does not seem to impart the grace that it supposedly espouses. I am not saying that everything Bill Gothard ever said was 100% correct because obviously noone living has that kind of accuracy in speech. I believe that we are called by God to search out the scriptures to see if what we are hearing is the truth. I was not personally offended by any of his teachings. The music talks were slightly odd, but I was not bothered because I didn't listen to much music anyway. I do not personally feel like I need to recover from the "horror and trauma" of homeschooling. I think it was the best thing that ever happened to me. My parents are not completely perfect, but who is? I sure am not.
Priscilla, I'm just curious how you would define the word grace. If grace = never confronting spiritual abuse or sin, then it could be said that Jesus was NOT full of grace. I don't believe that grace means "not rocking the boat" or "not questioning spiritual authority." John 1:14 says that (Jesus) "...came from the Father, full of grace and truth." And Jesus, being full of both grace and truth, spoke the harshest, most condemning words against spiritually-abusive leaders in Matthew 23. I can just picture his disciples edging close to him trying to get his attention to say, "Jesus--are you kidding me?!! Don't rock the boat! Why aren't you being more gracious and loving? What do you think you're doing? How could you condemn well-respected religious leaders?! They're not ALL bad--after all, they're only human and make some mistakes. You've gotta chew the meat and spit out the bones from their teachings!" But Jesus didn't do that. And he was full of both grace and truth. It's just something to ponder...
Priscilla, I think it is wonderful that you were not traumatized by your time in ATI. Not everyone can say the same. I'm kinda getting the impression from you that you don't think anyone else should have been traumatized, and that you think it is ungracious to call a spade a spade? I think, by and large, people are just being honest here about the false teachings (which begins with the definition of grace), and the abuse they have suffered. And honestly... I can understand your disbelief. I don't think I would have believed it, if I had not experienced the inconsistencies and abuses for myself.
Priscilla, please act on your belief, search the scriptures, and compare God's Word to Gothard's teaching. Whether or not you were personally harmed by Gothardism, if it doesn't line up with God's Word it's not Truth and God's people should reject it. If a teaching doesn't line up with the Bible RUN FROM THOSE TEACHING IT!
I'm not recovering from the horror and trauma of homeschooling. I LIKED being homeschooled. I liked parts of ATI, too. But the teachings are wrong and the attitudes we Gothardites developed was damaging, so it turns out I've had a lot to work through.
Part of that working-through includes understanding what went wrong. That means pulling apart Gothard's teachings, understanding what went on at Training Centers, and exploring our own thought processes. Calling out someone who was wrong, and being passionate about getting the word out to others who have been hurt -- that's not being ungracious.
Matthew 18 involves stages, starting with addressing someone personally, and ending with getting the entire church involved. There are many documented attempts to speak with Gothard personally, to no avail, and RG represents a red-flag-waving attempt to inform the church on ATI/IBLP's dangers. So if Matt. 18 is to be invoked, RG is not contrary to it. However, I would suggest that there are multiple things going on here: in the case of personal wrong, Matthew 18 is a blueprint. But there is also doctrinal heresy in much of Gothard's teaching, moral failure, and abuse of all sorts. Look through the Scriptures and you will see Jesus (Matthew 23), Paul (1 Corinthians, etc.), Peter and others speaking out against religious abuse for the sake of the purity and peace of the church. Those weren't Matthew 18 issues because it wasn't just a matter of forgiving a wrong directed personally. It was a great concern that the flock not be led astray. This is a great concern of RG.
1. I have yet to see any complaint against homeschooling. If it is on the site, it is rare. The problems expressed are with ATI. In fact, I know many (myself included) who have no problem with homeschooling and even homeschool their own children (myself for one).
2. The problem with Gothard isn't that he isn't 100% correct, or even that he isn't even 75% correct. The problem with Gothard is that is teachings are rotten at the core. On the surface they seem fine, but scratch that surface and you will find false teachings, and continual, blantant abuse of Scripture. You might check out some of the articles in the Twisting Scripture section. I find that most of those who aren't "offended" by Gothards teachings are those who haven't really looked beyond the surface. And I say this as one who was in the same position 12 years ago - I couldn't believe some things people were claiming about Gothard's teachings...till I went and looked more closely for myself.
3. As to the rest, its goes far, far beyond parents or Gothard simply not being completely perfect. There are consisent stories of systemic abuse present (and covered up) within many families and programs of ATI. To protest that "no one is perfect" is to deny the real abuses that take place and remain unacknowledged or dealth with in ATI.
Priscilla, I want to address a couple of things from your comments here. I would like to offer you a different perspective. :-)
The first thing I'd like to talk about is the definition of grace, which I think you described as an God's unmerited favor that leads you to desire to know and please Him. This is a pretty good definition. But it is NOT what Mr. Gothard teaches. Mr. Gothard teaches --- and I have personally heard him say these words --- that grace is "the desire and power to do God's will" and that we gain more grace by "making wise commitments, following God's laws, and doing good works." Read that again really carefully. What he's teaching is that we EARN God's grace. That one teaching, all by itself, makes Mr. Gothard a false teacher. God says that there is NOTHING that I can do to "earn" His favour. God's grace is a FREE gift.
I sat under Mr. Gothard's erroneous teaching of grace for all of my formative years. My parents learned it from some of the earliest IBYC seminars; I learned it at my first IBYC seminar when I was 12 (in 1981), and I kept hearing it until I left the IBLP / ATI ministry at the age of 27. Believe me when I tell you that it has taken me longer to UN-learn the wrong understanding of grace than it did to learn it. I am 43 now, and I still catch myself trying to somehow "deserve" or "be worthy" of God's interest in me.
And that is really what this website is about. Warning people and protecting the "little ones." My parents were very young in the faith when they came under Mr. Gothard's influence. And they were adults, with mature thought patterns and filters to help them sort the good teaching from the bad teaching. I wasn't. I was just a kid. I soaked it all in like a sponge, and it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I realized my sponge had soaked up some poisonous stuff. It is really, really hard to get all that poison out of the sponge when it's been there for so long.
I appreciate your words about properly confronting wrongdoing among believers. It's certainly important to go about it the right way. The Bible clearly says that when a person continues in error after private confrontation, we are to go before the whole church --- that is, we then take it public. This serves two purposes: it lets the person know that we are serious in our desire to stop them from spreading the wrong teaching, and it warns those who are being led astray that there is a problem. Many people have privately confronted Mr. Gothard about his erroneous teachings over the years. He continues to teach error that is leading people into harm. Since people have gone both individually and in groups to Mr. Gothard to deal with the false teachings, it is perfectly within Scriptural bounds for people to take the concerns public. Since Mr. Gothard's work is not bounded by a single church, it is necessary to disseminate the refutation of his work as widely as possible, so that anyone who may be touched by it can have the opportunity to hear that there are concerns over the teachings.
The last thing I'd like to address is the idea that people on this website are anti-homeschooling. I guess some of the people (both contributors and visitors) probably are --- for some, the abuse they were subjected to is inextricably linked with their homeschooling experience, so it makes sense that they'd reject that educational approach. But a lot of us, myself included, actually support homeschooling. I'm actually sad that I wasn't home-schooled. My two younger brothers were, and I'm envious. I saw the benefits for them, and I wished I could have had the same. So I gave it to my kids. I home-school my sons, who are now in high school. I wouldn't have it any other way.
it amazes me that no one seems to remember that we are to confront people with their wrongdoing and show them the hurts they have caused. bg has done a lot of hurting just by his inaction in the cases of abuse in families and at the different training centers. he acts like it never happened or blameshifts until he feels or at least looks good in his own eyes. he is a lier and a deceiver, and the bible clearly states you are to confront these people. read matthew 18-all of it, and then tell me you dont see the need of this. he wont even own a portion of his fault but instead blames rock music for the lot of problems. jeremiah lamented and warned the people of the coming doom, they didnt listen but no the less he did what was required. we can do no less!!!!
priscilla, you werent hurt and that is great, but others were and deserve at least your compassion and respect and prayer. you cant know and im glad you dont know or have the damage, but dont belittle those who have and need healing. Christ didnt come for the healthy, the blessed, the rich, the fed, the religious. Jesus came for the poor, the broken, the hungry, the dispised and the broken hearted. He came for the hurting!!!!!
we are called into His service to do the same thing. we dont have to understand it all the time. we do need to trust in Him and pray for ALL those who are weak and heavy laden!!!!!
Lori, well spoken! Thanks! I'm so grateful He came for the brokenhearted and wounded!
I guess the main portion that I was reacting to was the part where everyone was attacking the man. I just barely found the site the other day, and from reading through the comments on the site you would think that all who have been in the program should have a root of bitterness.
Sure there is a time and place to call out false teachers (I don't personally believe that he is one,) and go from there. A public forum may not be the best place to do so. I am not judging anyone. There is a prerequiste however in the scriptures that is clearly lined out in Matthew 7:1 and 7:5. That is that we are to search our own hearts and motives first before going to the other person personally to try to reconcile the other one to a walk that is pleasing to God.
I do believe that there have been people that have been hurt by the misapplication of scripture, and I am not trying to minimize their pain.
Someone asked for my definition of grace, and I will tell you that it is a work that God has done and is doing in my heart. I will attempt to describe it for you if I may be permitted. There is nothing that I have personally done. God caused me to desire himself and to know him and want to please him. This is an act of mercy (unmerited favor). Notice here that I have done nothing, and can do nothing to gain, keep or merit this at all. God has done all the work even putting the desire to want to please him there. Unless God had drawn me I would have kept going my own way.
If after this post is read I am no longer welcome on this website it is all right. I hold no ill will towards those who might not agree.
You are more than welcome on this site. I encourage you to keep reading. If you don't like the things you perceive as attacks on Mr. Gothard and don't see him as a false teacher, I suggest you start out in this section: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/twistedscriptures/
As you may have noticed, calling bg to accountability and warning others of his teachings, is the primary purpose of this website. If that is "ungracious", the apostle Paul is also to blame, as he ratted out false teachers publicly, and the documentation of that is still in circulation today, as a warning for all of us.
My primary problem w/ bg is that he redefines the grace of God, essentially making it of no effect. This tampers with the Gospel, and Paul told us this was a serious offense.
So far as I know, you are perfectly welcome here. This site does not ban all dissenting opinions ;) From what you have posted, it seems you have a good handle on grace, and I pray you may ever grow in the awareness of that grace.
Priscilla, fwiw, I think all opinions, respectfully stated, are welcome. Speaking for myself, I'm glad you are here and I hope you find it to be a meaningful and challenging place that helps you better understand your own position, even if it's others might disagree with.
As I understand it, RG gets a fair share of responses rebuking them for attacking Mr. Gothard, however, those responses are invariably from people who still support Mr. Gothard. I suspect that these are well-meaning folks who are not clearly seeing the difference between calling Mr. Gothard's false teachings out vs. attacking him as a person. To a person, his supporters seem to believe (as I certainly once did and I remember it clearly) that any major disagreement with him is an attack against him. However, the highest form of respect you can show to any author or teacher is to take their teachings seriously and to evaluate them fairly. Those who step back and evaluate Mr. Gothard's teachings often end up having their eyes opened to more and more error that they had been previously ignoring.
Also, don't forget that a blog doesn't have much control over the comments. Those come in from all over, from people like yourself who are speaking their mind.
I'd like to suggest a couple pieces for your consideration:
The story of Abigail here (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-tale-of-two-abigails/ ) and here (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-tale-of-two-abigails-part-two/ )
There is a document here (https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/10/a-call-for-discernment/) that was carefully researched and written by a team of pastors as a response to the growing influence of Gothard's teachings in their church. They were not disgruntled former members, which is significant because Mr. Gothard often attacks people who disagree with him as being bitter or rebellious. Clearly neither of those epithets fit these guys.
Finally, a piece I wish I could have read years ago: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/circumcision-blue-jeans-cabbage-patch-kids-the-dangers-of-jesus-theology/
As bad as the theological errors are, some of the abuse issues were very bad. It seems that in many (certainly not all) families Gothard's teachings did not help make the home less abusive but instead helped make the abuse more pervasive. I find it interesting that those who choose to support Mr. Gothard often disbelieve any and all such stories out of hand. I can assure you that if you start talking around, you will hear stories that will curl your hair.
I guess a challenge I would offer to someone who really wants to support Mr. Gothard is, what about those victims? What is Gothard or his followers doing for them? Honest question: Do you suppose that Proverbs 24:12 might apply?
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?
Priscilla,
Thanks for your comments. It seemed from what you said that you felt the main purpose of this site was to call out Mr. Gothard as a false teacher. For me, as I have been following this site almost from the beginning last summer, the main purpose is to provide a forum for those who were involved in his movement to be able to see and identify the errors of his teaching in their own lives. When I first was introduced to this site last summer, I found it very sobering and eye-opening. Many things that I had glossed over or hadn't even thought about were brought to my attention. Other posts were encouraging and refreshing as they confirmed what the Lord had already been showing and teaching me about His truth. For me, this site has given voice and validation to the fallacies within some of things I was taught as a child, teenager, and young adult growing up and serving in IBLP/ATI for 20 years. Even when I don't agree with everything on some of the posts, I have found it good to be aware of others' perspectives.
You also mentioned about there being an appropriate way to confront someone and not being sure a public forum was the way to do it. I wonder, Priscilla, if you're also familiar with the alumni supplement booklet written my Mr. G on Matthew 18:15-17? I remember teaching this booklet many times at the training center I worked at for 7 years. Bassically it taught, 1st go the person directly with the offense, 2nd take someone with you to go to them, and third, take the matter before the church. At that time, I overemphasized step one, step two was okay to do, but step three was very much under emphasized. The emphasis was on going directly to the person privately. However, Matthew 18:15-17 is clear that there are two more steps in the process after a person has been confronted. So, from what I have seen these steps have been taken with Mr. Gothard regarding his teachings and he did not see that his teaching was wrong. So telling the entire church, or proclaiming it on a blog, is simply following the principles of Matt. 18:15-17. :) There are also many other Scriptures on exposing false teachers and heresies. I just noticed Matthew 18:14 is talking about not offending little ones. That's a huge reason for this blog - to help prevent future little ones from being offended and hurt through wrong philosophies and teaching. I understand you do not see his teachings as wrong, so perhaps the Matt 18:15-17 verse won't seem applicable. I'm interested to see what your thoughts are after you read some of the links that David and Matthew suggested.
For many years I did not see much wrong with the teachings of ATI, but gradually and slowly God began opening my eyes to see some of the teachings that were wrong. It's been a long process for me, beginning in 2004 and still going on today. These past few months I've been amazed at some of the things God has shown me that I've been living under that are not of Him. He is very gentle and leads us slowly, only as much as we are able to handle at time. I'm so glad He so tenderly cares for each of our hearts! I hope you enjoy participating on this blog and feel welcomed, Priscilla!
Well said, "Hope"
Priscilla, I sincerely hope that you will continue to participate in these discussions. Personally, I bear you no animosity and I'm pretty sure no one else here does either.
What do you think of the articles that were recommended to you? Can you be a Berean and search the scriptures to see if what BG says is true or false? I want to encourage you to go deeply into the Word of God. It is truthful.
Lastly, please consider this: are you a follower of Bill Gothard, or a follower of the Way, the Truth and the Life? Blessings on your journey.
BG has been confronted on multiple occasions and does not repent or apologize. It is always someone else's fault. He is also not under the authority of any one church so he feels he's only accountable to God.
Recently, the pastor of his church informed BG he was no longer a member of the church because BG was unwilling to be under authority.
The spiritual abuse is real. The people are really hurt. And the truth needs to be told so that others don't fall into the same lies of fear and deception taught at ATI/IBLP.
If a false teacher is a public person, then a public "calling out" is perfectly acceptable. If he can preach his false teachings to multitudes of people, then we can call out his false teachings to multitudes of people.
The two Abigails one was interesting. I have never considered Abigail to have been wrong in the least bit in her haste to save her husband's life. I am not a "rebel", but didn't agree with his interpretation. I am about to go read the other articles now. Thanks for your patience.
Not at all. I appreciate you engaging the articles.
A call to discernment was also an interesting read. There are several things that could be said. I think that the most important is that you can never just take a person's word for it that he or she is speaking for God (yes even your pastor). You must search the scriptures yourself to find the answers. God's Word is 100% sufficient to solve any problem that we could ever face in life. Otherwise God would have told us more than He did. II Tim. 3:16-17 tells us that "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness. That the man (or woman) of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. I am not trying to show off my Bible knowledge, just responding to the posting.
https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/08/gospel-becomes-no-gospel/
Priscilla, here is another article, one of my personal favorites, it was written by Beverly. It addresses Gothard's definition of grace.
I see someone else has also directed you the article about the dangers of a Jesus + theology, which I also think is excellent.
Blessings to you.
The Cabbage Patch kids article was interesting even if odd. I think I recall hearing something about this part years ago, but it seemed like such a silly thing for the movement to react to. After all they are just dolls, and promising to take care of your doll is not signing up for idol worship. That is kind of far fetched to come to that conclusion. Not wearing jeans? Not sure where that came from. I believe that my parents were discerning enough to teach us not to believe everything we hear, but to see if it is true or not.
Thank you Matthew for posting the links to the articles.
Priscilla, thank you for taking the time to really look into some of the articles and explore the ideas that are being refuted here at Recovering Grace. It sounds like your parents took a balanced and discerning approach to Mr. Gothard's teachings. Too many parents either didn't or forgot to tell their kids that there were some things they should take with a grain of salt.
Priscilla, I'm not sitting back and waiting for you to agree with us and pick up a flag to march along. You might not think some of the problems are really that big a deal. That's just fine. But I do want to thank you for taking the time to read the site, instead of dismissing it out of hand. Thank you very much.
I know my parents didn't buy into everything IBLP taught, they just forgot to tell us kids. So all during my childhood I believed everything Mr Gothard and those under him taught. Once I got older I did notice the inconsistencies between IBLP teachings and scripture. I was labeled as a rebel by others in the program and ostracized for daring to have different opinion of what the scripture in context was actually saying.
My parents weren't legalistic by any means while we were in ATI. I recently asked my dad point blank, "how did we get in, did we lie on the application?!" Our non-denominational church had drums, neither my mother or my 4 sister and myself wore skirts 24/7, and we even spoke in tongues! My parents had more discernment than many and didn't believe in making ATI a lifestyle. However, like you said they forgot to mention that they didn't buy into everything to their children. It was confusing to say the least and 15 plus years later I can honestly say we could have done without.
Wow! I think back to those days in Knoxville and wonder how many of you were there, your sweet, innocent faces wanting to know and please God and your parents. Little did we parents know what was really going on! I'm thankful that my husband was balanced and never "bought in " to any of the ideas too quickly, much to my chagrin at the time. Now I'm so very thankful to God for him. We were in ATI from 1990-around 2005. Our oldest son was 12 when we joined. A few years ago he was over and we were talking about musicians and he could see that I was no longer holding to this strict rule to not listen to rock music. He asked me what had changed my mind. I told him, "You have, son. I have watched you. At 18 when we told you that you were answerable to God for your actions and we were no longer going to tell you what to do you began to listen to and play (guitar)rock music. The years went by and you stayed committed to Jesus. You never got involved in pornography, pre-marital sex, drugs etc. All the things that BG predicted would happen if we allowed our children to listen to rock music did not happen to you." As someone in these comments has said, "The evidence is in." We can now evaluate it. I am really thankful that none of my children worked at training centers or at HQ although at the time I so wanted them to be able to be in the "Inner Circle." I'm thankful that we used the Wisdom Books as a tool and often had long discussions explaining why what it said in them was wrong. But I definitely WAS a Gothardite. Looking back I can see that now but at the time, when accused of it I vehemently denied it. I knew that BG was only human after all. But I was convinced that he was closer to God and heard more from God than anyone else and I didn't want to miss out on what God was telling him. Wow. I am glad this site is here and I want you all to know I'm praying for you.
Thank you, Kathy. That kind of acknowledgement from a parent is healing to us all.
I'm glad to hear that Hannah and Jessica.
Thank you! That really touched my heart!
My friends and I joke around about the phrase, "There's an app for that." Need to compute a tip? Remind yourself to pick up clothes from the cleaners? Read an eBook on the go? There's an app for that!
All throughout my years in ATI (21 actually), I felt like one of the mantras was, "There's a resource or booklet on that. Read it and your issue will be resolved." So sad to see that, in this November 2011 letter, this mentality hasn't changed at all. In fact, Dr. Gothard seems to be getting more incorrigible over time. Even though his "vision" of a godly generation that will transform the world into conformity with the ATI way of life is most definitely not being realized (in fact, quite the opposite is happening in our world today) he still carries on as always.
I pray that the incessant flow of personal stories, Biblical examination of IBLP teachings, and dialogue, both from RG and elsewhere, will eventually alert the world to the fact that ATI/IBLP is not giving the world a "new" approach to life but is instead packaging a damaging mixture of first-century Judaizer OT law-based theology, dominionism, and puritanical lifestyle standards together into a system that doesn't teach people to know and love Jesus Christ but instead makes them unquestioning followers of a man.
May God help those still trapped in this way of life, including Dr. Gothard.
As with any teaching involving the Bible.. if you don't take the whole counsel together you will get into trouble / hurt. I'm surprised at number of people who feel victimized by Gothard's teachings. My family was involved with ATI for about 10 yrs- CIs, ALERT, etc. I and my wife (we were never in ati together) feel we benefited in our Christian walk through the teachings- some of which were not specifically from Gothard. Were there people that misused power? Yes.. Were there social clicks, rude people, ones that took themselves to seriously- sure.. Pretty much like any institution with people in it. Some of the people are still my friends, some not. Some of the teachings are part of my life, some not.. Gothard has never been responsible for my soul, I am.
So, what about the teachings that were unscriptural, taken out of context, and out-of-balance? And yes, I took the "whole counsel" of Gothard. I took it and applied it as he meant it.
What about changing the Gospel by redefining grace? What about denying the doctrine of Sanctification?
Check out the "Twisted Scriptures" section, for some examples of what I'm talking about.
I agree. We searched the Scriptures for ourselves and did not take teachings cart blanche. Both my husband and I are college graduates and wanted our children to go to college if their desires followed that way. My one son loves Alert. We try to go to Sacramento for the conference but ask the Lord what He wants us to do. We have come across legalistic Christians everywhere. BG is not the cause of this. They are in every institution and church. I have some good friends through the seminar. The seminars are getting better and some things I don't agree on but than I drop them. Do you agree with everything your pastor says. Do you check it with Scripture?
No I don't agree with everything my pastor says. But then my pastor (nor any pastor I have been under) has ever abused Scripture as badly and consistently as Gothard does.
It is true that legalism exists everywhere. BG did not invent it. However, I disagree about the "cause". As we see from Scripture, false teachings ARE a major cause of legalism (try reading the book of Galatians in a modern tranlation, for easy understandability). In that light, I do believe that Gothard, through his unbiblical teachings, has directly "caused" legalism.
I also feel that Gothard is the "cause." He changed the definition of grace. A dangerous thing to do.
If God's grace isn't His amazing unmerited favor for us, you change the very light of salvation and Christianity. It cannot be anything but His unmerited favor toward us or else our own works will have to come into play. Works such as modesty, music, and courtship will be the basis of being a good Christian... rather than the great love His favor bestowed on us flowing out to others.
And when these works become the focus... judgment on those not keeping in line with the massive amount of works that will be piled and piled on the mix will come and so will pride on those that keep it enough to "look" like a fantastic Christian.
What is this fantastic Christian? The one who looks so pious that nobody can touch him.
But Christianity is the opposite of the pious. It is the heart of the woman in blue jeans and t-shirt who stops to give someone a hug just because they need it. From all I have seen, ATI, IBLP, and most of all Gothard- are the epitome of the opposite of true Christian love and the synonym of the pious pharisee that looks like the so-called "perfect Christian" but truly lacks the heart. Especially in the light of all these stories and his gross neglect to answer those who are begging for an explanation and/or apology for certain abuses of power within his ministry.
I think what Dustin was trying to say was: It's not Gothard's fault. It's the fault of parents for not discerning...and the fault of parents for placing their children under Gothard's teachings without discernment.
I think he's saying a modification of "guns don't kill people. people kill people." In other words, Gothard could have done no damage to families if the heads of those families knew God, knew His Word, was led by His Spirit, and discerned the Truth. Children who grew up in ATI/IBLP are for the most part defenseless to false teachings until they become adults and have minds of their own and seek the Truth for themselves.
If I understand Dustin correctly...the parents are to blame, not Gothard.
Richard, are you saying that as such, Gothard is not accountable for his actions, regardless of who bought into his program?
Well put.
Thank you for sharing this article and your thorough responce towards this. When I started reading his article it brought bad memories. So I just scrolled quickly down through it. It did catch my eye of him freely giving his phone number and email address. I don't know if he would be true to his word or if he would even have time ( last I remember he was too busy with international affairs, to make more training centers, more power and territory in the world). I have tons of things I wanted to share with him. It will take me hours and hours to share all the hurts that were caused to my personal life, my marriage, my past, the best years of my life, my present, etc, my word, even my children. My one side wants to call him and share all with him, but my another side thinks that it would do no good. Bill would never understand my pain and there is nothing he can do now to undo what was done to me and to many others. I don't think he would put up with my emotional sharing, I might say something wrong in the process. And I really seriousely doubt he will ever find time to listen to me and many other hurt people whom he offended. Yes, it's the easiest thing to do, just to write one article. One article just doesn't cut it!
Wow, I just read his letter and can hardly believe that in late 2011 he still believes his own propaganda so strongly. He hasn't changed one bit and he still uses scripture crafted with his own analogies to manipulate the less aware. He is the definition of insanity.
The fact that unclean music and pornography are leading to the pain in young adults lives is naive and unsophisticated. Sexual oppression in every instance is a bad thing. I would bet his teachings on sexuality (and modesty) have led to many more failed and struggling marriages than they have helped. I've always wondered how he knew what kind of music god approves of? I've been through all the training and it still didn't make sense. At 38 years of age I have learned that such fanatics are usually trying to cover pain in their own life that they haven't deal with. He throws a lot of stones for someone who is just as human as you or I. As leaders who so publicly speaks out about morality (Hagard, swaggert, Gingrich, Chris Hansen NBC, Spitzer) He is only setting himself up for a fall from his very own definition of grace.
I have moved on past him by decades now and I am so thankful that I have been enlightened. In his soul of souls he must be a very tortured individual. Humility would be so freeing for that man.
"Humility would be so freeing for that man."
A very interesting statement...and it just dawned on me... You're right.
Many of his supporters claim that he is humble, even the epitome of humility. Yet you have made the astute observation. The pudding is...his reactions to criticism.
Now we need to pray for him!! Think about the end of his long life, believing he was the fulfillment of the Apostle Paul on Earth, never marrying, but also like Rome, concealing the hypocrisy of his huge organization.
Think of 1 Corinthians 3 which talks about the fire trying every man's work, what "sort" it is, and it shall be tried by fire and many who thought they were building God's Kingdom, they would escape simply by the flames of Hell chasing them. This is very sad!
Think about his background. Somehow, he was taught that Authoritarian leadership was the truth! Who was his teacher? His father stayed with him all the way through to his death. Was he the teacher of the Authoritarian falsehood?
I used to be ATI in the early '90's as a 22 year old, one of the older first students. God in His Wisdom delivered me out, but not without facing the steamroller of this giant religious organization I equated with "God".
This website is awesome!! The Cross of Christ is beautiful and sets us free from the curse of the Law!! There are some principles taught that are based on truth. Birth, Death, and supernatural fulfillment is one of them. He has found many deep truths. The wisdom of carving out "character qualities" is great! It is truly sad that such a man was swallowed up in his own pride, my friends. But the root was there. I didn't realize it at the time, but I see it when I met him back in 1990. I see it in his seminars.
While we heal from the pain, we should also mourn over this brother who is wiser in his own conceit than 7000 men who could render a reason! We should mourn!!
God bless you all my friends!!
Thank you, John. I think many of us do pray that he, and our friends still trapped in that mindset, will come to a true understanding of grace.
Great thoughts, John. If you choose to write about your experiences, please let me know. You've got me reeled in - I want to read more!
You know something that I think would have made a difference? If instead of focusing on things that we do externally he would have considered more deeply passages like John 15, abiding in Christ.
If BG's eyes and heart were opened and he was brought to repentance so that he recanted his teaching, imagine how the lives of his faithful followers would be rocked. In some ways I would imagine that this could be almost more difficult to deal with than for those who have left ATI/IBLP because they themselves were awakened to the truth. So, prayers should be offered up for the followers as well as for BG, in the event that he ever did recant.
Yes. It is a scary thing when your worldview collapses beneath you. Been there.
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It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
(Gal 5:1-6)
YES!!
I attended Journey to the Heart in 2011. I have no history with ATI and registered for the retreat after I felt led by the Holy Spirit. Needless to say..what a week indeed.
No mercy, no grace..it was shocking to sit through. I am convinced the Lord had me there for two reasons. One, I needed to see/experience what has grieved the heart of God for many years. Second, I was there to PRAY. The North Woods Lodge was like a dusty,lonely, empty tomb...I could almost sense a spirit of oppression when I was there. It was very, very sad. During the week in 'group sessions' I continued to challenge the discussion leader grinding against the legalistic literature being presented. You can imagine how that went over! But I continued to push the truth of Grace and Mercy and how I personally had been changed by the Holy Spirit. Was any of this heard? Only God knows. But I flew home more deeply in love, full of gratitude for my Lord and Savior Jesus and thankful I had nor will I ever be a part of any false teaching such as this. Unhealed pain and brokenness will lead to self righteousness...a tricky thing... and religious men/women fall prey to it every day. :(
I believe the Lord showed me in part why Bill Gothard is who he is. Look at his father. A religious tyrant who beat his children into submission (physically) and never showed then the love and acceptance of a parent. Mr Gothard's driven attempt to continue protecting/justifying his ministry is nothing more than a broken, wounded man who never knew the mercy, love and true Grace of a father. And has never been able to embrace the Gospel of Grace from Jesus.
Let us pray for this man. It is never to late for him to really encounter Jesus and His Holy Spirit.
Holly, you sound like a modern day Joshua! I think you understand Gothardism well. Let's pray for everyone harmed by it.
Wow... It is refreshing to hear the words of a true disciple. Thank you for sharing your experience and your heart and the way Yah works in you.
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The general audience to your site is a narrow one, largely comprising those who were disappointed in Gothard's ministry. As such, I suggest the commentary here is also narrow, and of necessity somewhat reactionary. I've read a great deal of it this afternoon, and would like to respond briefly.
First off, the complaints sound very familiar to me. They sound like the many complaints I've heard from folks who were caught up in C. J. Mahaney's organization (which used to be called "People of Destiny Int'l., and has since changed its name). It was a major player in the discipleship movement of the 1980s.
Frankly, PDI had more cult-like qualities than Gothard. The common thread, though, is an adherence by many followers to an organization which more appropriately belongs only to the Lord Himself. Unfortunately, this is a huge problem throughout the church. People look to churches, to organizations, to programs and systems and formulas because these things appeal to the natural mind. When they later find out their faith was misplaced, they are hurt and often angry. This is more likely to happen in a very energetic church, or in an actual cult, than it is in a para-church organization . . . but obviously it can happen within the following of any ministry.
Here's the truth. We all see in part, know in part, prophesy in part. We all see as through a glass darkly. We've all fallen short of the glory of God. When people look to man, or a man, instead of God, they're going to get into trouble.
Gothard has sown a lot of Word. He's planted and watered abundantly. Has there been a legalistic thread? At times, yes there has. But is there a preacher without a thread of error? I've never met one. And I've met many. My ministry is in great part a ministry to pastors and missionaries, and my heart is filled with an appreciation for what they face in light of what God calls them to.
Healing isn't about blaming Gothard, because healing isn't about blame. Attempting to hold Gothard accountable for a group's perception of his error is itself legalistic. We are each responsible to hear the Word and take what we're taught to the Lord, letting God provide confirmation and instruction. We have an anointing which teaches us all things. Much of the error described in the comments above involve a failure to screen out what has been taught. That may be difficult to hear, but it's true.
Ephesians 4 describes five different ministry gifts--apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. They are all assigned to equip the saints for the work of ministry, and the equipment we receive from each one is different. Gothard has a teaching gift. He's not perfect in its use, but it's a genuine gift. It's made room for him, and we should celebrate that. Thousands of great ministries have had their faults . . . sometimes glaring ones. What healing ministry (whether Katherine Kuhlman, Oral Roberts, or anyone else) hasn't left many disappointed? What ministry that delivers people from homosexuality has never disappointed anyone? The same is true for every ministry. In fact, the more successful the ministry, the greater the disappointment of some who for whatever reason didn't have their expectations met. Is it the ministry's fault? Sometimes, sure it is. But if our hearts are only toward the Lord, we need not stumble at the shortcomings of others.
The Body of Christ is so profoundly divided. Why? Because so many of us have followed Paul or Apollos or Luther or Bill Gothard or Kenneth Copeland or Larry Tomszak or Pat Robertson or (insert the name of your very favorite preacher). We are to follow them as they follow the Lord, but we are to receive equipping from multiple sources. Purpose is established in a multitude of counsel. Gothard is but one source, and millions will testify that his input has been valuable and meaningful in their lives. For those who made him an icon in their own lives, he could not have helped but to fail. The apostle Peter would have failed you also. He got legalistic too.
To those who are likely on this thread and might read my note, my primary concern is not your attitude toward Bill Gothard (though I certain pray your heart is soft and forgiving toward him, as it should be toward everyone). My greatest concern is that you recognize the board in your own eye, so that you don't repeat the same mistake again looking to another man for principle guidance rather than God Himself as you should have been doing in the first place. I dare say the vast majority who have seen Gothard's seminars never became nearly so deeply entrenched in his teaching as you did, and because of that they never suffered what you've suffered. They, like me and so many I know who have appreciated Gothard's ministry over the years for a variety of reasons, strained out the stuff that didn't add up. We took the music teaching with a grain of salt. We recognized some of his systems were a little too neat and tidy. We sniffed out some of the legalisms right away, and adjusted accordingly. This let us walk out of his seminars refreshed in the Lord, having heard a lot of Word, our faith increased as we heard from Heaven. It wasn't about Gothard for the great majority of us. It was about the Word, and we appreciated the hard work Gothard did to put it out. May God bless him for that, and keep him and you as you seek God together for a resolution of offenses and reconciliation in the Spirit.
Respectfully,
David Maddox
David, your thoughts are valid and appreciated... I especially agree that "if our hearts are only toward the Lord, we need not stumble at the shortcomings of others."
However, you seem to assume that the people on this site are suffering hurt because of the disillusionment that their idol didn't pan out. There may be hints of that storyline in a few cases, but the story is much different. These stories and comments are the expressions of the CHILDREN of that disillusionment, who grew up in the 'system' and were not equipped to discern, take the good with the bad, and 'adjust accordingly.'
Also, it's fair to say that Gothard set HIMSELF up as the Lord's anointed, a leader who was not to be questioned and continues to lack accountability. I'm familiar with PDI (Sovereign Grace) and yes, there's a 'Survivor Site' for that ministry too, but to suggest that they're more cultish than Gothard makes me question whether you really know Gothard. Even Bob Jones Sr. referred to IBLP as 'cultish.'
I'm glad you were able to 'strain the baby out of the bathwater' and get what you needed from Gothard. But that might be a bit much to ask of the impressionable children who grew up in this system. Each person on this site, I hope, will take your exhortation to look inward (the log) before descrying the speck, and to consider what forgiveness and mercy and grace look like in this setting. But that doesn't negate the fact that there is a cumulative warning, theologically and morally, to be shared by the former students on this site... to keep some damaging teachings and trends from being recirculated to new and unsuspecting families.
I would say that some organizations have more cult-like tendencies than others. I will say that, for myself, I don't think cult involvement is okay. If an organization becomes cultlike, I will get off at the next stop, thank you very much. I'm hoping that my 10+ years in ATI signify the end of my cult involvement.
I agree with Kevin. We write as a warning to those, who like my parents, went to a seminar and got sucked in by all the pretty, "godly" young people with bright eyes. They were sold a bill of goods: enroll in ATI and your kids will end up like this too.
Some did, many did not. Some became atheists. Some are gay. Many have been married, divorced and remarried. Some have used birth control. Some (gasp) even became Democrats!! All kidding aside, there is no such thing as a formula for success in the Christian life, which is exactly what Gothard sells, whether you hear it in his seminars or not.
Some have walked away from their faith altogether, but I believe the majority of the writers for RG have not. They tell their stories not in an attempt to rouse a mob to storm the Bastille, but rather to say "buyer beware".
BG never has wanted to be accountable to anyone. His teachings have severely crippled many people emotionally and spiritually. Through his teachings families and individuals have become slaves to perfectionism, authoritarian teachings, fear of man, pride, appearances, and an unbalanced world view.
This site is about spiritual abuse - something that ran rampart in ATI/IBLP unchecked. Apparently there were other abuses as well... But we won't go there.
Well stated David Maddox. Very well stated. A gentleman by the name of Dustin said something similar earlier in this forum, although not as eloquently as you did.
I also second the response of Kevin. How would you propose children to cope with false teachings, considering that they are not yet equipped to discern between Truth and the twistings of Truth?
You are correct, many of the comments on these forums may seem like a Gothard-bash session to some. To others, it may be the healing that comes with expressing hurts. Any counselor will tell you that expressing your hurt helps for healing, especially in public arenas with others who share the same hurt (e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous).
Nevertheless, I believe the site in its entirety is not one of blame or bashing, but is one of publicly calling an influential leader to repentance (Scriptural), of warning to others against false-teaching (Scriptural), and fellowship via encouragement in the Anointed One that they are not fighting their personal struggles alone (Scriptural). By personal struggle, I mean washing oneself clean of growing up as an impressionable child in an institution of false-teaching.
If playing the blame game...perhaps Gothard is not the one to blame. The vulnerable children (who are now adults) who grew up in the institution cannot be the ones to blame either. So who?
Who blames the Enemy for Adam's sin? Everyone I know blames Adam.
So why blame the deceiver in this case? Doesn't the blame fall upon the head of those who should have discerned, on those who should have tested the teaching, on those who made the adult decision?
Perhaps the parents?
But then...who wants to blame their parents...
David Maddox, I wonder if your understanding has changed in light of the recent articles showing how Gothard forced his false teachings on his child followers (often constructing those false teachings to aid himself) as he led a false lifestyle?
My primary concern is that so many pastors fail to discern false teachings and, for numerous reasons right and wrong, further fail to properly critique their fellow ministers. This is part of your responsibility.
For the reasons mentioned above, you are wrong that Gothardism has a narrow audience. Gothard spread his false teachings far and wide for 50+ years, and they infect more church bodies and families than people can at first imagine. The terminology might be different, but the concepts are there. People are always shocked when I point out to them how they are under the influence, and they are horrified.
I encourage you to help better inform those within your reach. Thank you.
David, I guarantee you that if I had given 3 years of my life to Kenneth Copeland's ministry, then had my eyes opened by his misuse of scripture and mistreatment of people, it would be Copeland whom I would be speaking out against.
I just happened to be exposed to Gothard.
Whether the man under discussion is Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, L.Ron Hubbard, Doug Phillips, or David Koresh - being a public figure is NO reason not to question their use or abuse of scripture.
It should be the opposite - the more they affect people's lives, the higher the level of scrutiny, and the greater accountability they are held to.
As a former IBLP student, I find Mr. Gothard's letter of "apology" disturbing. In no certain way did he address the pain that any of the families had to go through while in the program, nor did he offer any explaination other than the vomit inducing thology that he produces each year after his "soul search" at Northwoods. His sickening way of skirting around the issue and admonishing us for "allowing influences" to take away from receiving God's blessing just reaffirms in my mind that he is dillusioned and in no way should be a leader to Christ's Followers. I honestly feel sorry for him, because in the end he will have to be accountable for the thousands of people he led astray and caused to turn from God. I am still hurt and angry from the things my family went through over 6 years ago, and even though I know my voice i one in thousands it makes me happy to see that I was not the only one wronged by Gothard.
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I, personally, think that we all have been hurt by Dr Bill Gothard's legalism. I came into the church as an adult in 1975 and wanted ALL that God could offer me. I was seeking healing and fellowship. I landed in a charismatic church and went to everything AND all of the seminars I could. Gal. 5:6 "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through LOVE." Prov. 24:12 "If you say "But we knew nothing about this"' Does not He who weighs the <3 perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done?" Our pastor sent his son to a IBLP seminar before he was allowed to go out with a girl. The patriarchy spirit in the evangelical churches in the midwest that I have been a part of is oppressive. Jesus elevated women. He encouraged their worship and he first taught some things to women before revealing them to the crowds. I have known people who were home schooled, have had friends who home schooled, exclusively, and I knew that home schooling left a lot of people divided. I think that your forum is wonderful, and I hope that the Lord uses it to bring much healing and reconciliation to us, His Body. (We need it.) AMEN
This is an excellent article. I've enjoyed reading every response as well. I didn't grow up in this organization, but I did grow up in a very legalistic one! Some of the similarities are uncanny! Several months ago I actually decided to research ATI and Bill Gothard to see if it was something I would like to apply to my own life...I didn't have to read for long before I backed up very quickly. It hit WAY too close to home. It's so great that there are outreaches like this to help those who feel shamed for not bogging themselves down in a man's belief system, rather than believing what God has provided for us in the bible! Now, I've dedicated myself to study the bible and seek guidance from the Holy Spirit rather than depend on any man's teachings. Some resources are helpful, but I believe you have to be discerning and prayerful of the council you seek! You cannot be a separatist AND go out into the world and preach the gospel at the same time. It is very self-serving and prideful to believe the world will watch you, and then be so overcome as to chase you down to find out your "secret". Over and over again, Jesus himself sought out people to minister to! Again, I want to say what a wonderful thing Recovering Grace is doing here! God bless you all. I'll be praying you reach many more!
"You cannot be a separatist AND go out into the world and preach the gospel at the same time. It is very self-serving and prideful to believe the world will watch you, and then be so overcome as to chase you down to find out your “secret”. Over and over again, Jesus himself sought out people to minister to!"
Right on!
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I agree with most everything you have said here, except for a few things: Mr. Gothard does not feel sorry for those he and his organization has abused. I have sat in his office, watched him blame rape victims, watched him look cooly and coldy at people who were pleading with him to listen to reason when he would treat them like criminals when they didn't follow his teachings, watched him bold-faced lie to his staff not only about what he had done, but also what people had said and what "God was doing" for his organization. I have seen excuse a sexual predator and send him home, rather than take legal action, then send the girl to Indy and a prayer room. No, he does not feel sorry for the people he has hurt both personally and by extension. And any invitation to contact him is only intended to confuse, disarm, and manipulate. After being in close quarters with this man for months on end, I have absolutely zero tolerace for him, his teachings, and his cold-heartedness. He is evil incarnate; made so not only by his insidious actions and attitudes, but because he claims to represent God directly to his followers. I personally have known many people, myself included, whose lives were devastated and who needed years of therapy to deprogram and heal to where they could continue forward in their lives and spiritual walks.
Thank you Carmen, for explaining things so clearly. I'm glad you are not deceived by him. And your testimony corroborates with some other articles on here.
I wish I knew you in person and could have you testify to some people I know who still idolize the man and the institution. You should publish an article of your testimony on this site.
You all are the one redefining terms... whether it be legalis, grace, etc. You focus on terms and smear anyone who doesn't agree with your definitions...
The definitions we use for grace and legalism are ones that have long been the accepted usage. It is Mr Gothard that uses unique definitions for these terms. Grace for one, has commonly defined as God's unmerited favor since at least Augustine. While there is a wide variety of subtleties that have been used by different theologians, most all conform to this general definition.
As to legalism, it has a very widely accepted definition of being any attempt to please God or attain holiness through works. I can list any number of respected preachers and theologians which use this general definition. You may disagree, but there is no basis for the claim that we are redefining terms.
John Doe have you heard of the "straw man fallacy"? Allow me to attempt an explenation.
You are misrepresening the positions put forth in this article and many articles throughout this website.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Food for thought.
Right on the nose.
Sorry,autocorrect messed up last post.... you all are redefining terms, and then smearing anyone who disagrees with your definitions. Let's discuss definitions...
Have you even read through this blog? Definitions are discussed in depth throughout these posts. It's Gothard who refuses to discuss his extra-biblical, Catholic-like definitions of legalism and grace.
I even have a pamphlet he put out in the 80's where he responded to claims he was a legalistic with "Jesus was a legalistic". An example was when Jesus said that "If you hate your brother, you have committed murder". To Gothard's Scripture twisting ways, this proves that Jesus goes beyond the Mosaic law in his commands to us. I don't know how you need any more evidence of heretical teaching. The TRUE teaching of these verses is that Jesus was pointing out to the Pharisees that they had depraved hearts, and a simple following of Mosaic law was not going to get them into heaven. All of these "legalistic" points Gothard says Jesus made where not, as Gothard claims, evidence that Jesus handed down a bunch of amendments to the 10 Commandments. Itwas to call attention to our utter hopelessness without the "Grace that is given to all men freely".
And btw, it is only someone who wants to call attention away from the substance of the point who wants to get bogged down in discussions on what the definition of "Is" is. (With apologies to Bill Clinton)
"And btw, it is only someone who wants to call attention away from the substance of the point who wants to get bogged down in discussions on what the definition of "Is" is. (With apologies to Bill Clinton)"
LOL @ reference to Bill Clinton.
Here's a decent definition of Legalism:
(which concerns not only salvation by works, but a life lived 'by the flesh' - w/an overwhelming emphasis on external standards and works.)
"...Legalism is an attitude, a mentality based on pride. It is an obsessive conformity to an artificial standard for the purpose of exalting oneself. A legalist assumes the place of authority and pushes it to unwarranted extremes.
In so many words, legalism says, "I do this or I don't do that, and therefore I am pleasing God." Or, "If only I could do this or not do that, I would be pleasing to God." Or perhaps, "These things that I'm doing or not doing are the things I perform to win God's favor." They aren't spelled out in Scripture, you understand. They've been passed down or they have been dictated to the legalist and have become an obsession to him or her. Legalism is rigid, grim, exacting, and lawlike in nature. Pride, which is at the heart of legalism, works in sync with other motivating factors. Like guilt. And fear. And shame. It leads to an emphasis on what one should not be and what one should not do. It flourishes in a drab context of negativism..."
Charles Swindoll
John Doe have you heard of the "straw man fallacy"? Allow me to attempt an explenation.
You are misrepresening the positions put forth in this article and many articles throughout this website.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Food for thought.
Mr. Gothard is a heretic -- in his case, a legalistic heretic. He preaches another gospel and another Jesus. It is that simple. He has created what amounts to a CULT. People have been appealing to him for decades about his destructive teachings -- he has simply dug his trenches deeper. He isn't going to listen. Like most cults, his followers are fanatical. Those who oppose them are said to be bitter or rebellious, or simply ignorant. Mr. Gothard is absolutely clueless about the grace of God and is blind the the fact that Christianity is Christ in us. I say this as a Christian pastor who, early in life, attended his seminars multiple times: Bill Gothard is a heretic. Read Galatians.
Ah yes, Galatians, the book where Paul chillingly reminds us that God will not be mocked, that you will indeed reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh, you WILL reap corruption.
Is anyone here advocating living in sin? Or are we only advocating resting in Christ's finished work, vs self-effort? At least the first 4 chapters of Galatians decry living the Christian life by human effort. That's all we're saying.
"Hannah" I'm curious, do you think the liberty written about in Galatians gives Christians the freedom to listen to music that blatantly glorifies fornication?
I can't speak for Hannah but this question gets my attention. If this were the only way to frame the issue, I would probably want to start becoming like the Essenes, hanging out in a secluded community and questioning in minutia what constitutes impurity. I heard on the radio the other day that the Essenes wondered if you were to pour water from a pure vessel into an impure vessel, would the impurity travel upstream and defile the pure vessel?
However, music and art in general from unsaved people will often do a better job of asking questions than providing answers. It is possible to engage that material critically and to bring our own theology to it and to seek God in our hearts in doing so. There is a lot of music that speaks to enjoying life or beauty, and I can accept and reuse those things in God's presence. There is a lot of music that engages themes similar to Ecclesiastes or Job. In point of fact, the very reality that people are so creative and create such interesting art is actually, I think, evidence of God. Why else are humans driven to such creativity if not created by a creative creator?
There are many songs that I don't know how to sing for the glory of God. A violent song that speaks positively about harming other people or taking sexual advantage - other than as cultural artifacts, I don't see any redeeming value there. I surely see a lot of music as being unedifying and out of bounds. But a song does not need to be explicitly Christian or to explicitly have my Christian worldview to be a good song. I can sing a terrible rendition of "My darlin, you looked wonderful tonight" with a pure heart to my wife, regardless of whether Eric Clapton had a pure heart in performing it.
It's the same thing for novels and movies and an a whole array of art. I don't see a need to avoid anything that has any violence at all, though I do intentionally avoid art with nudity and overt sexuality because I know that I am not likely to consume it "in the Spirit" so to speak. I won't be watching "The Sessions," nor did I watch "Sopranos" for example. But the Bible itself has some pretty shocking stories involving sex and violence, but never does it glorify it. In the same vein, I'm perfectly fine reading a William F. Buckley novel about political intrigue, even if it includes some strains of sex and violence, because it's a perspective on real life and real issues.
Does that make sense?
Grateful,
I see this is an old thread, and I am trying to remember what the conversation was about.
Are you asking me whether I think a Christian may listen to "rock music", or whether a Christian may "glorify fornication"? Because that was kind of my point to start with, that one does not equal the other.
In any case, I think we're asking the wrong questions. "All things are lawful for me, but not all things edify."
Listening to a certain genre of music does not equal "sowing to the flesh". How you treat your fellow man, would be an issue closer to the crux of the matter. "You pay tithes of mint, anise, and cumin, but have omitted the weightier matters of law, justice, and mercy." Jesus was not concerned about minor issues of musical genres, when he said this.
Too funny.
I had to read others' comments to you to realize that you were making a jab at the commentators on this site.
I initially thought you were pertaining to Gothard when you said "God will not be mocked, that you will indeed reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh, you WILL reap corruption."
Living by the law is sowing to the flesh, too, btw... and the corruption is much more insidious than the natural consequences, say of alcohol abuse or sexual sins.
"for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain...you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace"
(i can quote Galatians, too! ;)
To me, that is a an insight that hits the mental shoreline like a tsunami and completely rearranges the shape of one's thinking. It explains why someone can seem so godly and can spend hours doing things like Bible study and church meetings and yet be an angry and controlling person behind closed doors. They are doing it in the flesh. When the Spirit is working, there will begin to be love, joy, peace, patience, etc., which I see as working from the inside out, and ultimately and necessarily affecting our behavior. That sort of theme is replayed in many places, including Gal 5, Eph 4, Col 2.
Great word picture. So true.
No doubt Will, "a little leven" is spoke of both as moral failures (I Cor) and legalism (Gal) - both are dangerous. However, Paul tempers his expose on liberty in Gal by giving cautions about the excesses of the flesh. I just to make sure a voice is heard on this website from an individual that has been burned by immorality - just as many of you have (apparently) been burned by legalism - and the liberty we have in Christ is precious and should be enjoyed with wisdom and prudence.
That's well said. I believe that sin victimizes people, including the sin of immorality. Jude, Peter, and Paul were clear that we do not have liberty to indulge in sexual sin.
Bill Gothard, through his own words, and through decades of teaching, not to mention the fruits of his teaching, has proven beyond a doubt that he has no understanding at all about the grace of God in Jesus Christ. And if he does not understand grace, what can he understand about the gospel? Furthermore, he has defended his errors against those who would appeal to him. The Word of God tells us to have NOTHING TO DO with such a heretic -- he is preaching another gospel and WILL NOT REPENT.
Wow, what an eye opener to read these articles and all your comments. It really brings to light why I've talked to so many former ATI friends who came across to me as very bitter. I didn't get it because, my philosophy was, "I got some good stuff from ATI and some bad stuff. I just chew up the meat and spit out the bones." But reading all of this has helped me realize that my family never really "bought in" all the way. I remember numerous times where my dad would point out areas that Mr. Gothard took a scripture out of context. My mom always taught me that if ANY man EVER said or did anything that made me uncomfortable that I should tell her immediately, no matter who it was. I did a couple of Children's Institutes which were fun, and went to EXCEL. Even though there were some frustration judgements made against me there It didn't really affect me that much because ATI was not my life, and my parents knew my character and would not have been "disappointed" if someone there didn't like me. I am really sorry to hear of those of you who were so damaged by the teachings and also the people who worked with ATI and affiliates. I'm so thankful that this group is available. I hope that as our generation becomes parents we will be determined to put scripture above any teaching of any man. I know we will fail as parents too, but I hope that we will do it in humility and the Word of God instruct us throughout the process.
Rachelle, thank you. Your openness and honesty are refreshing, as is your willingness to look at ATI from a different perspective. I'm so glad that your family did not buy in too deeply, and that you were so well protected by your parents!
Yah forgive me if I have slandered a person, or a leader of a group.
I will, however, freely and justifiably criticize a teaching or an organization or an institution. The reason being...one man cannot be to blame for the actions and teachings of an institution. Hitler did not wage World War II, but rather his supporters. It is all the people who supported IBLP, all the parents who supported IBLP, who gave the leader power. He had no power except that which was given to him by the people...for it to be wielded over themselves and their families. Sadly, it has taken this long, but at least the generation raised in it have, by the grace of Yah, found their voice, and their boldness, in Him. Praise Yah!
I was completely unaware of IBLP until I approached a college graduate, 25 year old woman with the intentions of marriage. Her family was entrenched in IBLP.
I was, evidently, 'damaged goods' (my best summary) in their eyes because I did not fit the IBLP mold of an 'appropriate man' (each parent has their own definition of an appropriate spouse for their child, but I was well accepted until I met this family). They never said I was 'damaged goods,' but it was the only logical conclusion according to the family's treatment of me. The institution's doctrines were raised to keep us separated: curses come down on you if you don't have the blessing of the parents (such as your marriage will never bear forth children), you are against the will of God if you are against the will of your parents (i.e. you are against God), etc...
My wife must have been convicted strongly by the Lord to pursue our relationship still, considering the risk that she may lose her beloved family (she was threatened that they would never be a part of our family, including our children and that she would never see her younger siblings again). We went through all the hoops, and still they tried to separate us, using fancy phrases like 'soul ties,' guilt trips, and emotional manipulation. Never once, however, was there any Scriptural support to their stance, nor was there any fruit of the Spirit in their treatment of me.
I, in my youthful arrogance, thought I could bash the false-teachings and come out the hero. I attended Basic Seminar in 2009, and I think I was the only one who took copious notes that day. I continued to take notes in my booklet days after the seminar ended. I compared every teaching with the referenced verses. I found one third to be accurate, one third to be a perverting of the Scriptures, and one third to be so out-of-context that I was speechless. Didn't this organization have editors? I then did the 49-week study that they have online on the fabricated equation of 49 commandments of the Master. I applied the same diligence in researching the referenced verses. I reached the same conclusion of 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3. I was not, however, the hero, but instead I alienated them even more. I received no counter to my research, but in attacking the doctrine and slicing it down with the Scriptures, I was attacking something very dear to the family, and thus I alienated them. "In love" is more than intentions, it also concerns actions. The Lord used this season as a lesson of humility for me.
My only conclusion concerning the organization, after meeting with a handful of wise counselors in the Body from a variety of congregations, was...this was a cult. I even read on what makes a cult a cult, and unsurprisingly, IBLP fit the bill.
It's control is amazing, but that is natural. As any organization grows to great proportions, especially with a single head of inspiration under no real effective accountability...control becomes tantamount, and the greater the organization grows, the more natural and oppressive control becomes, because every added cell (family) feeds that control. It gives the power of control to the head, and it enforces that control between each other, kind of like Marxism, McCarthyism, etc... Even other, much older congregations do not have this level of control on its members. Add to it isolationism disguised as 'separation from the world,' including other Christian groups because 'they're worldly too,' and it's a cult just waiting to happen.
I applaud this site for all of its goals. At first I thought I was going crazy when I discovered this organization. I felt as if I had discovered a mythical monster. Was I the only one aware of this cult? Other cults are publicly addressed, but when researching IBLP, I found mostly crickets...perhaps only one other voice online. Was I seeing things and perhaps this was not a cult, but rather an accepted doctrine? It flew under the radar enough to where it was not blasted from the online skies. I know of many other congregations and teachers who get blasted online for trivial mistakes or even minor disagreements, but how was IBLP untouched. Very few knew of this thing called IBLP and I had to guide many counselors and elders to their website just to inquire of their observation and discernment. No one was decrying these false-teachings, at least on a massive scale. Sure, my elders all told me it was a cult, but they didn't seem greatly concerned. Of course, they're more into building our local congregation than they are with tearing down external monsters, but there is so much criticism online that I thought someone would have taken the banner to warn people of this organization.
I met many members of IBLP (a small percentage considering its size), and I could not help but feel that I had jumped into a movie (i.e. The Stepford Wives). I really thought that I had entered a secret underground society that had successfully kept itself hidden from public eyes. I felt like a conspiracy theorist who knew of the conspiracy yet powerless to warn people. I did what I could, and warned everyone whom I knew personally against the organization, but...you all who created this website...good on ya mate...and may Yah bless your endeavors. May He keep you all in humility and empower you with His grace to continue this service of healing and being the watchman...in the Anointed One.
All glory to Yah.
I am so thankful to the Lord for this website. I grew up attending "Bill Gothard" seminars around the year 1984 when I was 13. Many of my friends couldn't wait to turn 13 to be allowed to go. It was exciting to hear so many conservative ideas and an encouragement to the fundamental families of that generation. It was so beautiful to sing "Redeemed" with thousands of christians in one place and no instruments. It was like angels singing.
However, My Pastor, Father looked at the material and warned us that he had MANY problems with his teaching. At first I didnt understand why he made such a big deal about it. Over the years, it has been made clear. It takes a long time to see things as we are mere men.
You have exposed much of this already but one thing I would like to point out is that the extreme lack of redemptive teaching in all of it, the "WISDOM" that he keeps talking about, wisdom booklets, wisdom searches...etc..etc it truly wisdom from below....."earthly, sensual and devilish" ( James 3:15-18)
The "Dominion" type of theology that seems to come out from his constant.."Change the world" seems to stem directly from the enemy of our souls. This man seems to clearly be an enemy. Im sorry to seem so harsh but ...the Bible warns in the NT over and over again about False Teachers and that we "could be deceived" Wisdom from below is very, very deceptive. BG was hidden from view for so long because it "looks so good on the outside. Appearances are sometimes the most deceptive. My husband and I started all of our children in ATI and it was so much work on the mother..impossible to keep up with. I finally listened to the counsel of my dad who said, " honey, point your children to Christ and stop following a formula" We did and by Gods wonderful Grace..our children are walking with Him. We still believe that godly principles remain godly principles. BG took a good thing ( character) and used it for his personal empire, he twisted scripture to benefit his own self interest and power, he is teaching heresy and I pray that he will quickly be exposed and that more and more people will turn from the dangerous teachings of a man and turn to Christ and stop being distracted by works of the flesh. He, of all people, used fleshly wisdom! Praying that God will bring him to repentance. I do think that this site should be careful to clarify things like music standards. Bill Gothard was WRONG in everything, however, hurt people have a tendancy to be so sick of legalism that they end up running the other way ( neo-Calvanist teaching) and this is just as dangerous. STUDY the BIBLE everyone. Get to know the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Jesus never fails! Thank you for your website..
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I just now read this article and distinctly remember reading BG's letter 3 years ago. I was disappointed and hoped it was truly different and remember being disgusted and shocked by what he said, even though I really couldn't have told you why. The letter actually broke another link in the chain connecting me with BG. However, because I couldn't even express what I felt, your response has been incredibly helpful and eye-opening. Still all these years later, I react just to the word "grace" and get sick just thinking about reading anything on the subject. You defined the essence of his error so succinctly - the "desire and power" is the result not the essence of grace. Thank you! I have been so confused for so many years regarding this concept. I never saw how he applied the part to the whole. Through this article another link in the chain has been smashed.
Please read the Epistle of Galatians before becoming involved in IBLP/ATI/IFB.
Another good website is:
http://www.baptistdeception.com/
This is a very good website because it opens up discussion about the IBLP/ATI/IFB world and Scripture's response to it.
In many ways, the spiritual gurus of the IFB world give themselves a license to sin all in the name of "soul-winning" and "defending righteousness." It's really self-righteousness that the IFB world is defending while sinning at the same time.
For simplicity's sake, we could say that ATI/IBLP, while not necessarily IFB in classification, is IFB in its aspect.